Taliban Say Could Free Christians if U.S. Eases

[Cohen]

Reuters
Saturday October 6 3:01 AM ET

Taliban Say Could Free Christians if U.S. Eases

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - The ruling Taliban could free eight aid workers held on charges of spreading Christianity if the United States halts its threats against Afghanistan (news - web sites), the Afghan Islamic Press said quoting a Foreign Ministry statement.

``If the United States mitigates the sufferings of the common people of Afghanistan and gives up its dire threats, then the Afghan government will also take steps to release the eight detained foreigners,'' AIP quoted a Foreign Ministry statement as saying.

A Foreign Ministry official, reached by telephone in the southern Taliban headquarters of Kandahar, told Reuters that such a solution was possible.

The aid workers, all with the German-based Shelter Now International (SNI) relief agency, were arrested in early August on charges of spreading Christianity, accusations that they have denied.




'Couldn't we just give them bin laden?'

'NO! He is our guest, that is against Islamic principles. I know, let's offer the proselytizing Christians instead!'

'Good one Omar! Good one!'

[Timing]

So are they hostages now? :rolleyes:

[Dr of Dunk]

Bush has already nixed any chance of this happening as he continues to take the "no negotiations" stance.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/06/gen.america.under.attack/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------

White House to Taliban: No deals

October 6, 2001 Posted: 10:36 a.m. EDT (1436 GMT)

(CNN) -- The Bush administration repeated its long-standing position Saturday that it will not negotiate with Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia, after the Taliban offered to release eight Western aid workers currently on trial in Afghanistan in exchange for the United States ending its "propaganda" about military action.

The eight aid workers -- four Germans, two Americans and two Australians -- have been held by Afghanistan's Taliban rulers since early August. They are charged with trying to convert Muslims to Christianity. Their trial began Sunday in Kabul.

[RocksMillenium]

So now the Taliban is taking hostages and trying to spin it in the name of religion huh? He is just digging his grave deeper and deeper. And funny how the Taliban talked this big game basically talking to the U.S. and telling them to come get some, and when the U.S. responded he's trying to get them to stop.

[ChenZhen]

why in the world are these workers doing trying to convert people to christianity in the first place anyway...they know better than that, that's what they get for being so stupid...these ppl piss me off...

[rimbaud]

They are not hostages. Before any of this happened, they were arrested for attemptin to convert citizens to Christianity -- something which is illegal. They are currently in detention awaiting trial/sentencing. This would have happened no matter what. These people were aware before hand (accrding to parents of the captives) but went on their missionary trip anyway. They knew the danger, no they are facing the consequences.

[RichRocket]

rimbaud is right-on in his assertion, but NOW they are being treated like hostages-- even though they weren't TAKEN hostage: "The ruling Taliban could free eight aid workers held on charges of spreading Christianity <B>if</B> the United States halts its threats against Afghanistan" (Emphasis mine)

[Achebe]

hmmm.... so if we don't avenge the deaths of the 6 thousand people, we might get 8 people back...

hmmm.... I'll have to agree w/ the others here that these guys knew what they were getting into.

[Dr of Dunk]

Anyone brave/crazy enough to go into a violence-stricken land that is so fundamentally driven by its religion to try and convert people from that religion, should be smart enough to know what they're getting into. I feel for them being trapped there, but what did they expect?

[RocksMillenium]

I agree with you guys that those people put themselves in that position, and they have to face the consequences, but the minute the Taliban said he would release them only if the U.S. would stop their attack that became somewhat of a hostage situations, especially if the future of those people solely hinge on what the U.S. does, because the U.S. and those people shouldn't be connected. So if he continues this, those are more charges levied against him, and the Taliban is becoming less and less of a sympathetic figure around the world.

[Kim]

I really try to stay unattached but, y'all need to shut the **** up and show some sympathy. A couple of these girls graduated from Baylor.

Are they Christian? Yes.

What were they doing? Working for a relief agency! Helping the poor! Feeding the hungry! Sheltering the homeless!

Y'all are sick, sadistic, negative bastards.

"They knew what they were getting into..." WTF!!!!???!!!!

How do y'all know what they knew?

I can't believe y'all are already finding them guilty of an unjust law that they themselves are denying that they broke, and that y'all are siding with the Taliban on conditions of fact!!!

I'm not even Christian, but show some ****** respect.

CNN-
"Previously, the chief justice of the trial has said that the trial of the aid workers -- two Americans, two Australians and four Germans -- would be fair and the defendants would not be treated as political pawns. "

Hello, is that not a lie or what?

Achebe-
"hmmm.... so if we don't avenge the deaths of the 6 thousand people, we might get 8 people back... "

what the hell? This is not about avenging. That is evil. This is about sending a message, securing our future, our safety....This is about stopping terrorism.

And yes, I want damn hard to get those 8 people back.

George W. Bush-
"There's no question that we're an angry people about what happened to our country. But in our anger we must never forget we're a compassionate people as well. We will fight evil, but in order to overcome evil, the great goodness of America must come forth and shine forth," he said. "And one way to do so is to help the poor souls in Afghanistan."


CNN-
Afgan Lawyer:
Khan said he reviewed an English translation of the charges Thursday morning and said they were not that strong.

My point is, y'all need to lay off on bashing these poor good sumaritans.

[Achebe]

I really try to stay unattached but, y'all need to shut the **** up and show some sympathy. A couple of these girls graduated from Baylor.

Damn, Baylor? Why didn't you guys say so! They're not just hostages! They're hostages from Baylor!

Uhhh...

Are they Christian? Yes.

What were they doing? Working for a relief agency! Helping the poor! Feeding the hungry! Sheltering the homeless!

That's some nice stuff there. Mighty nice stuff. It's too bad the evil Taliban took them hostage. Hey! I have an idea Kim!!! Why don't we just drop the whole damn thing! Sure, these pig ****ers (OBL and his network) killed thousands of people, but his host now has some Euros, a couple of Americans, hell a couple of people that graduated from Baylor as hostages. They win!

We're backing off.

Whatever. :mad:

Y'all are sick, sadistic, negative bastards.

You have my resume?

"They knew what they were getting into..." WTF!!!!???!!!!

How do y'all know what they knew?

I can't believe y'all are already finding them guilty of an unjust law that they themselves are denying that they broke, and that y'all are siding with the Taliban on conditions of fact!!!

I'm not even Christian, but show some ****** respect.

I don't think anyone here agrees with Taliban law. Most everyone here wants to see the Taliban destroyed (except for that commie Rimbaud).

Achebe-
"hmmm.... so if we don't avenge the deaths of the 6 thousand people, we might get 8 people back... "

what the hell? This is not about avenging. That is evil. This is about sending a message, securing our future, our safety....This is about stopping terrorism.

No avenging? Then I'm out. If I don't get to kill at least 5 terrorists personally, I'm calling the whole thing off.

My point is, y'all need to lay off on bashing these poor good sumaritans.

Those ****ing samaritans. Always trying to do good stuff, ****ers.

[rimbaud]

Originally posted by Kim

"They knew what they were getting into..." WTF!!!!???!!!!

How do y'all know what they knew?


Before you toss about names that hurt feelings, you should probably read a little more closely...in my post I said the parents had said so.

You see, I saw an interview and the parents said that their daughters knew before hand about the laws, about what they would be doing (which included talking up Christianity), they even siad that they were "briefed" right before the trip about the specific laws and dangers. One father said that his daughter was not trying to convert anywone, she was just "explaining Christianity to people." Her words.

So, yes, they knew what they were doing, they did what was illegal in a different country...they got caught. Now, as Rich said, they are being used as political bargaining chips.

I am not saying the Taliban is right or not stupid or anything, but I still wouldn't go to a country with an oppressive regime and do something about which they have made forcefully clear classifies as illegal and punishable by jail time or worse.

Achebe,

For the record, only two of them are Americans, so "we" would only be getting a 2 for 6,000 deal.

[Kim]

HEB,

Okay, I think this is like two ships passing in the night. Your sarcasm is amusing(though most of it does not lead to valid points), and I see what you are saying. A lot of our arguments though are not clashing, so that means we're talking about different things.

Let me just sum it up:
I too want to destroy their fundamentalist regime, and I do not want to back off or negotiate or anything. I just felt that y'all were being too negative and judgmental on some people who were just working relief aid and talking about their beliefs.

Sorry I called you bastard.

[Mango]

Article in Washington Post:

<A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=digest&contentId=A54280-2001Sep6">For Faithful Friends, A Trial at a Distance
Vienna Awaits Verdict From Taliban</A>



What the Taliban <i>government</i> was doing last spring:

<A HREF="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/03/0309_buddhastatues.html">
Explosions Tear at Afghan Buddha Statues</A>

<i>.....The Taliban are being true to "a promise they have made when they came on the scene," said Zadran. "They said they were about to implement a pure Islamic government."

The Taliban control more than 90 percent of Afghanistan and have said they plan to destroy all Buddhist statues, including the two large Bamiyan statues.......
</i>



Mango

[Space Ghost]

I totally agree with Kim on this one... Even though I do agree they knew what they were getting into.

And avenge? We going to kill 5500 Taliban's or terrorist? I would careless about revenge. If there was some way they could hold true to a promise that they would drop terrorist against americans forever, then I would be all for them dropping this subject.

Now lets just say this was 8 people being held because they were gay; or 8 people being held because they were black; or 8 people being held because they had abortions ... im sure you liberals would be all over this!

[Puedlfor]

Now lets just say this was 8 people being held because they were gay; or 8 people being held because they were black; or 8 people being held because they had abortions ... im sure you liberals would be all over this!

What was the point of this paragraph? Just to rile people up? Do you actually think this?

[Dr of Dunk]

At a time like this, the mere fact that there are people still espousing the "you liberal"/"you conservative" thought processes is beyond belief. How about we send your asses over there like the people in the military are now and see if the first or most important thing on their minds are is whether or not they're liberal or conservative. It's a pathetic and disgusting shame that in the midst of this battle against idiots and terrorism we still have to fight battles of stupidity like this at home.

[treeman]

Personally, I'm not all that worried about the 8 aid workers (and the Brit journalist, lest everyone forget). I highly suspect a rescue mission will be conducted very shortly. Fingers crossed, only Taliban guards get killed in the attempt...

[Kim]

Trying to remain objective, I think what space ghost is saying is that people feel sympathetic more towards those who they relate to.

There is no anger or hatred or name calling on my end anymore. I was just very upset at things like this:

ChenZhen:
why in the world are these workers doing trying to convert people to christianity in the first place anyway...they know better than that, that's what they get for being so stupid...these ppl piss me off...

I was upset at this because this person is pissed off at the fact that there are people who go to one of the poorest countries in the world and try to help the starving and are also talking openly about what they believe in. These "stupid" people deserve better than that.

DoD:
How about we send your asses over there like the people in the military are now and see if the first or most important thing on their minds are is whether or not they're liberal or conservative. It's a pathetic and disgusting shame that in the midst of this battle against idiots and terrorism we still have to fight battles of stupidity like this at home.

That was a harsh thing to say to him and should be toned down a little. I hope your prayers and compassion towards the victims will be stronger than the hatred you hold towards those who you find ignorant.

[tacoma park legend]

These people are stupid for thinking they could make a difference. I really don't care about the merit of their "mission". What they did was pure idiocy, plain and simple.

[Kim]

Originally posted by tacoma park legend
These people are stupid for thinking they could make a difference. I really don't care about the merit of their "mission". What they did was pure idiocy, plain and simple.

Again, I am not Christian, but man....."they are stupid for thinking they could make a difference." (sigh) I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. All I'm saying is people should be having sympathy, not this "I can't believe you are so stupid" attitude towards the political prisoners of an unjust government.

There are a whole lot of other instances in this world where political prisoners have been taken. I don't know how many of y'all consider them "stupid for thinking they could make a difference."

[Cohen]

Originally posted by Kim


Again, I am not Christian, but man....."they are stupid for thinking they could make a difference." (sigh) I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. All I'm saying is people should be having sympathy, not this "I can't believe you are so stupid" attitude towards the political prisoners of an unjust government.

There are a whole lot of other instances in this world where political prisoners have been taken. I don't know how many of y'all consider them "stupid for thinking they could make a difference."

I agree with you Kim; One person can make a difference.

[treeman]

I'd say maybe 50-80 people will make a difference. They will actually go in and snatch those people out of the clutches of the Taliban, and have no fear doing it. They will not ask "Why are we risking 10 men to save one civilian woman?" or anything like that. If any of you have ever met any SF, you'll know that such a mission is what they HOPE for. They are perfectly willing to risk it all to save those aid workers and the Brit reporter. Eager would be a better word.

Everyone here can sit and whine about religion while they're being snatched out of a compound in Kabul. If you're really Christians, you'll pray for a safe delivery.

I'm not religious, and even I will pray for that.

[Space Ghost]

DOD,

It has nothing to do with them being liberal or whatever the reason they are over there. There is a dominance of athesism and it seems some are writing them off because they are Christians and they knew what they were getting into, so therefore,we shouldn't worry about them.

As for Puedlfor, he would rather argue my statement than think about it. Ever heard the saying ... If the damn shoe doesn't fit, don't wear the damn thing!??

[rimbaud]

Originally posted by Space Ghost

Now lets just say this was 8 people being held because they were gay; or 8 people being held because they were black; or 8 people being held because they had abortions ... im sure you liberals would be all over this!

If there was some messed up country that proclaimed that anyone who admitted to being gay would go to jail, and some Americans went to that country and told various people that they were gay...that would not be bright.

If there was a country that said they would imprison any black person walking around on the street and some black Americans went to that country to go walking around on the street...that would not be bright.

If there was a country who...oh, you get the point.

I, like DoD, love all the labels that are being tossed about. This issue has nothing to do with liberal/conservative or Christian/non-Christian. That is absurd and to suggest otherwise is equally silly.

This has to do with knowing risks, knowing penalties, and doing them anyway. Often this is called heroic, sometimes this is called stupid. In either "scenario" it is still dangerous and not always logical.

These people were doing good things, passing out humanitarian aid, etc...however, it is part of the whole missionary goal -- one whose main goal is that of conversion. That is fine. However, if you go to an extremely hostile environment, you run high risk. When you go around promoting your religion in public, that is even more dangerous. It is a catch-22, I guess...you can't just help people because that is against the procedure of your missionary work, but you also know that spreading knowledge of Christianity (in hopes of conversion, etc) is risky.

So, they got caught. As the law of the land states, they go to prison. Now, is this a good thing? Of course not. I have not seen anyone in this thread argue the merits of jailing Chrisitans in an oppressive fundamentalist Islamic country. To argue that anyone is doing so based upon party affiliation or religious doctrine is very simple minded.

Setting aside the moral justification for incarcerating people for having beliefs different than the govs, is it wrong for the Taliban to attempt to use these would-be prisoners as political bargaining chips? In accordance with international relations policies throughout history, no. Should they be released? Yes, and will be once the Taliban loses its power. It seems highly unlikely that a government which has the support of perhaps 20% of the country cain maintian that power when being beseiged both internally and externally.

I know, I should be ashamed of myself for my views....they are bad. So very very bad.

[DarkHorse]

Just to add a little insight to this whole discussion...

Most of you know that I myself spent two years as a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I can appreciate to a point the mentality that these 8 people might have had.

(I should mention that our church strictly believes in upholding the laws of the country in which you live in, so we do not and would not proselyte in countries such as Afghanistan where it is illegal to do so)

But understand that these people are driven by a belief that they are doing the will of God in helping the people of Afghanistan. And DoD is right. You can't possibly become part of such a missionary trip without considerable preparation and a firm resolve to do whatever it takes to accomplish your goal.

Of course these people knew that they were getting into something hostile and difficult and technically illegal. I disagree with their violation of the law, however wrong I feel the law is, but these people are not blind, or stupid.

It is narrow-minded to accuse someone of stupidity or foolishness because they are motivated to do something that they feel is right - and in their minds, the BEST kind of right.

They were not killing people, or causing pain or terror. Just basic human concern and benevolence. And I assure you it is genuine. It was for me and everyone else I worked with.

And also, people so devoted as to go into a situation like this are certainly secure enough within themselves to accept the fact that they may never return to the U.S. You may not be able to understand, but when you're willing to put yourself on the line everyday because you believe you're contributing to the greater good in the world, you really don't think about yourself anymore.

God bless those 8 people, but don't hold back punishing their captors either....

[RocksMillenium]

Look Kim, I'm not saying that what they were doing wasn't good, and they deserved this, but you would have to be an idiot if you didn't go to a war torn country and knew they would do something like this. You don't just go to a country assuming all is well, especially a country as battered as Afghanistan. I'm not saying they deserve what they get, but they weren't completely ignorant of the consequences they faced. With that being said, I hope they get home safely and don't suffer from a simple mistake because of some sick freaks. As for the people comparing this to white, and blacks and gays, this has NOTHING to do with race, or anything like this, it has to do with a crazy Taliban ruling over a warn torn country, and people putting themselves in a bad situation. I don't have a clue how someone could use this as a "liberal vs conservative" situations. You liberals would be all over this? I have a question, do you think Osama bin Laden thought about liberals or conservative when he killed thousands of people?

[Puedlfor]

As for Puedlfor, he would rather argue my statement than think about it. Ever heard the saying ... If the damn shoe doesn't fit, don't wear the damn thing!??

I haven't argued with you yet, I asked you three questions in the hopes that you would clarify your statement into something that was less obscenely stupid, did I hope in vain? If I didn't hope in vain, would please clarify what you said?

[Space Ghost]

if you must ...

1) I suppose I should not have just limited it to liberals...probably shouldn't have said it at all. It was a tongue-cheek-statement. It was made for those who said something to the effect of "They were christians, they knew what they were getting into" Now I offered a few thoughts ... If the person was one of those I listed, would they feel the same way? Would they want to mount a million man army to save them?
2) rhetorical question - But in a way, yes
3) rhetorical question - No I don't

Once again, it was stated to those who held them as "Christians" held hostage in another country as opposed to "humans" being held hostage.

And on the flip side, for the Christians who felt more biased to them because they were fellow Christians, would they be so eager to get them out if it was something they didn't believe they had a reason to be there.

[Puedlfor]

Thank you for clarifying. Your point is much more understandable, and not nearly as inflammatory.