"Dierker a disgrace" -Joe Morgan

[Kim]

Even though A LOT of reporters and columnists have been flaming Dierker as of late, I usually don't give much credence to their opinions. I mean, I respect their opinions, but I figure that they think they know too much sometimes when it comes to baseball strategy and when a manager is wrong.

Joe Morgan, however, is a hall-of-famer, respected columnist, and is known to be pretty objective (aka not Blinebury-ps. but Blinebury's daughter is hot).

Here's the link:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/morgan_joe/1259931.html

Here are some excerpts:

...A tip of the hat goes to Astros rookie Wilfredo Rodriguez for doing what an athlete is supposed to do -- compete. He competed against Bonds and lost, serving up home run No. 70 in the ninth inning. But there is no disgrace: 58 pitchers have lost to Bonds on 69 other occasions this season....

...Houston's Larry Dierker, however, deserves all the blame for the Astros' approach to Bonds because Dierker managed scared the entire series, the pitchers pitched scared, and in the end the team played scared. And the Astros got swept in their own ballpark. I know most of the Astros players; they all wanted to compete, but they weren't allowed to compete.

Dierker made a travesty of the game. He did the wrong thing for his team, for the Houston fans and for baseball. In the three games the Astros hit Bonds with a pitch once and walked him eight times -- and, believe me, all of them were intentional. The Giants scored 13 of their 25 runs in the series following a Bonds walk...

...A team never wants to put more runners on base with a four- or five-run deficit because more runs could score. But Dierker went against conventional logic.

A few times in the series, when Bonds was up with runners on base, Dierker sent pitching coach Burt Hooten to the mound to tell the pitcher to not throw Bonds a fastball...

...I have been an Astros fan since I began my major-league career in Houston in 1963. But the way Dierker handled the Bonds situation, I am not an Astros fan for their final three regular-season games...

[Stevierebel]

I don't know if he is a disgrace but he really stinks as a manager. If we had another one, then we would really have a championship team and not one that just talks about it.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

I talked about this in another thread, but I think dierker was on verge of doing damage to the game of baseball. You just don't walk a guy nine times. That's not competing. I agree with Morgan.

[Timing]

Morgan is normally objective but it's no secret he's a Bonds guy. He's all into the whole Bonds/Willie Mays thing. So he does have a biased angle here.

What I read from Dierker is that he gave every pitcher the option of how to pitch Bonds. In game situations I don't think telling your pitcher not to throw Bonds a fastball strike is that big a deal. How many fastball strikes was Ortiz throwing to Bagwell when he was up? Maybe Morgan should put his money where his mouth is and finally accept a managerial job in the majors. The 'Stros might have an opening soon if we miss the playoffs.

[Puedlfor]

Pitching to Bonds is stupid. No way around it. You can call it a travesty, a disgrace whatever you want - but Dierker is trying to win games and one of the way you win games is by not giving Barry Bonds slow lobs to the plate to send into the upper deck.

And if the legions of Bonds Bandwagoners don't like it, screw them, the Astros are supposed to be playing to win, not to appease your longing to see towering homers - you want that, go watch a tape of the Home Run Derby.

[Timing]

Also, I don't think the problem with the Astros is Dierker. He may not be a great manager but that's not what's causing this latest losing streak. It's becoming clear to me the problem is in that friggin clubhouse. Art Howe, Terry Collins, and now Dierker have all been scapegoats for the chokers in that clubhouse. It's not the managers, it's the players.

[SamCassell]

I agree with Armadillo, basically. Pitching to Bonds is not the way to win ball games. The only truly questionable walk to me was the one in the 8th inning last night, when we were down by 7 runs and the game was basically over. At that point there was little harm in pitching to the guy.

[DaDakota]

Screw Morgan.

It was not Dierker that was throwing up Beach ball sized pitches to the rest of the Giants.

It was not Dierker who is standing at the plate afraid of failure and thus not able to deliver the clutch hits.

Dierker did what he thinks is best to give the Astros a chance to win. I guess they did not pitch to Sammy in the previous 3 loses either?

Screw you Morgan, you are no longer credible in my book.

DaDakota

[PhiSlammaJamma]

I'm all for winning, doing what it takes to win, but not at the expense of the game. So what do you do next year? Walk the guy 500 times in a season (an average of three a game). I don't think so. It's damaging to the game. And above all else, that's what we should respect, the game of baseball. It's like playing with midgets, yeah, you might win every game, but it's not baseball, it's a joke.

[Band Geek Mobster]

Walking Bonds clearly backfired in this series. He scored almost every time they walked him. At least when they pitched to him, they got him out a few times...

Another questionable walk was in the 1st inning with no one on and 2 outs. I mean it's the 1st inning, you shouldn't be afraid of a little solo homer. Instead they walk Bonds only to watch Kent hit a 2 run shot.

[RocksMillenium]

I agree with Morgan to a degree, Dierker was even walking Bonds when the Astros were already down 7 runs. If he is afraid of power hitters, why doesn't he just walk Sosa, and Bonds, and Junior and Piazza and Gonzalez every time they come to the plate? That was embarrassing. Walking a guy during a blowout? I can understand if it's a two or 3 run game and there are people on board, that's a quick way to lose a game and get fired, but walking him where there aren't people on, or during blowouts, or something like that is what hurts the game.

[Clutch]

It's funny.... didn't we have entire threads devoted earlier to why Dierker was so stupid to <I>pitch</I> to Sammy Sosa (<a href="http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?threadid=22400">1</a> | <a href="http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?threadid=22578">2</a>)? Now he's so stupid because he did <I>not</I> pitch to Bonds. We do realize the time we pitched to him he hit a home run, and that's bad for the Astros.... right?

Dierker is stupid because we <I>lost</I>, plain and simple. Hero one day, goat the next. That's the way it goes. The media, though, grills him because they wanted Bonds to get 4 or 5 dingers in Enron that series. That's all. Personally I wish the Astros would have completed the job and not pitched to him in his last at bat.

Astros still have the second best record in the NL, and they're already left for dead by most. That might bode well for them.

As for Morgan, he can blow it out his ass.

[BobFinn*]

Has Joe Morgan ever managed a team in a pennant race? No

Didn't the Reds (Joe Morgan's team) pitch around Reggie Jackson in the 1976 World Series (which the Reds swept)?

Its too damn bad that Joe Morgan and all those Bonds fans that came to Enron to see history ( they sure weren't there to cheer on the Astros) walked away feeling empty.

I would love to see the Astros reach the World Series just to shut Joe Morgan up.

Oh and has anyone looked at Dierker's record as a manager lately?

[Major]

I'm hoping Bonds hits #71 today in a loss after the Astros beat St. Louis. I'd like to see the Bonds celebration while him and his teammates just got knocked out of the playoffs.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

I'd rather respect the game and lose, than disrespect it and win. There's no honor in that. There is only defeat.

I'm not aganist Dieker, just the strategy.

[Puedlfor]

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
I'd rather respect the game and lose, than disrespect it and win. There's no honor in that. There is only defeat.

I'm not aganist Dieker, just the strategy.

Isn't it disrespecting game to ask a manager to tell his team to do something he feels will make his team lose?

Pitching to Bonds is like kicking an alligator, it takes guts, but there ain't a good reason to do it and that gator might take your leg off at the knee for kicking him.

I want to see the Astros win games, and if that includes not pitching to Bonds, then thats how it has to be.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

:) Nice gator analogy, I liked it,

but remember the gator is just as afraid of you as you are to it.

Ok. Only a half hour to go. Gator Number three Mark McGwire on deck. Sosa, Bonds, and Now McGwire. Ouch!

[francis 4 prez]

Joe Morgan is an arrogant little bitch who thinks he was God's gift to baseball when he played and is God's gift to baseball analysis now that he's retired. Has the man ever missed a chance to tell us about an accomplishment from his playing days or not believed he was right about anything.

Just because you wanted to see a few home runs and the Astros didn't oblige doesn't mean you put a column on a major website completely denigrating our manager and saying you now hate our team. I mean think about it, in the history of bad things managers have done (and who even says this was one), how many times have ESPN employees gotten up on their soapbox and publicly bashed the manager. Try never.

Did I sometimes get frustrated we were walking him so easily w/o a little challenging. Yes. Did it still make sense. Yes, because a homerun is still worse than a walk, and the way Bonds and our pitching staff have been going homeruns seemed destined to happen if we challenged. It's not Dierker's fault that every time we walked Bonds we proceeded to give up about 5 more hits in the inning.

I'm actually pretty pissed with the way he did get the homer. Ninth inning, guy making his second appearance ever, throwing fastballs belt high right over the plate with the game not in question. Like someone else said, I wished we had finished the job and not pitched to him for the last time because that homer was practically against batting practice.

And Joe Morgan can kiss my ass.

[Francis3]

Joe Morgan is a peice of ****. He just wants his loverboy friend Barry Bonds to break the record. Astros did a nice job walking him. They didnt do like other teams that would throw 80 mph fastballs to bonds and let him hit 3 homers each game.

[RocketsPimp]

Originally posted by Timing
In game situations I don't think telling your pitcher not to throw Bonds a fastball strike is that big a deal.

Exactly...in GAME SITUATIONS(ie. where the game is on the line)...which the Astros were NOT IN at any time Bonds was up to bat. Pitching around Bonds late in a game where the score is close(ie. 1-2 runs) is one thing, but doing it for the entire series is not smart baseball. Dierker tried to outsmart the game and ended up beating himself and his players.

Then what does Dierker do when he realizes he made the wrong decision? He sends in a guy that has little Major League pitching experience to throw CHEESE to Barry Bonds. GREAT JOB DIERKER.......you dumba$$!!

Dierker screwed up plain and simple. His pride may have cost the Astros their chance at the playoffs.

Sorry guys, but Morgan is right on the money.

[RocketsPimp]

Originally posted by Band Geek Mobster
Another questionable walk was in the 1st inning with no one on and 2 outs. I mean it's the 1st inning, you shouldn't be afraid of a little solo homer. Instead they walk Bonds only to watch Kent hit a 2 run shot.

Hmmm....1st inning, no one on base and 2 outs.

NOT A GAME SITUATION.

[Puedlfor]

It is not smart baseball to pitch to Barry Bonds under any circumstances. Not with the season he's having.

[RocketsPimp]

Originally posted by Clutch
Personally I wish the Astros would have completed the job and not pitched to him in his last at bat.


I agree with you there because Dierker only made himself look worse by not sticking to his original "strategy".

[RocketsPimp]

Originally posted by BobFinn*
Didn't the Reds (Joe Morgan's team) pitch around Reggie Jackson in the 1976 World Series (which the Reds swept)?



Big difference there Finn. The Astros are not in the World Series. Maybe Morgan's Reds would have won that series if they had pitched to Reggie.

"Its too damn bad that Joe Morgan and all those Bonds fans that came to Enron to see history ( they sure weren't there to cheer on the Astros) walked away feeling empty."

Come on now Finn. The fans wanted to see the Astros win first and foremost. If Bonds hit a homer or more in the process, that would have been icing on the cake for everyone in the stadium. I seriously doubt fans would have "waled away feeling empty" if Bonds had been pitched to, not hit any homers and the home team won.

[RocketsPimp]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
It is not smart baseball to pitch to Barry Bonds under any circumstances. Not with the season he's having.

Pitching to Bonds is stupid. No way around it. You can call it a travesty, a disgrace whatever you want - but Dierker is trying to win games and one of the way you win games is by not giving Barry Bonds slow lobs to the plate to send into the upper deck.

And if the legions of Bonds Bandwagoners don't like it, screw them, the Astros are supposed to be playing to win, not to appease your longing to see towering homers - you want that, go watch a tape of the Home Run Derby.

Puedlfor, stop with the exagerrating. These guys are all professionals. No one in the league(with the possible exception of Wilfredo Rodriguez) has thrown Bonds straight cheese(or slow lobs) to hammer out of the park. Bonds has worked hard and earned this recognition and it's really unfortunate that Bonds Haters can't appreciate it because they are too busy listening to the media and jealous guys like Jeff Kent, who wouldn't get so many good pitches to look at if he didn't have Bonds batting in front of him.

True, the Astros are playing to win, but walking Bonds 9 times in 3 games didn't help the Astros win anything did it. A good manager would play him like a man. Make him beat you until it is really necessary to pitch around him.

[Puedlfor]

It worked last time we played San Francisco.

I'm sorry, but Barry Bonds is having one of the greatest seasons <i>ever</i>, pitching to him is stupid, under any circumstances.

I've seen Bonds beat too many teams to need to see him blast one out against the Astros to know we need to pitch around him.

[Puedlfor]

Three straight times Bonds has been pitched too - three straight homers.

I was not exaggerating, it just doesn't make sense to pitch to him unless you want a severe case of whip lash.

He is dialed in now, he has been the entire season. You can't fool him, you can't pitch to him, better to put him on and take your chances with Kent.

[Timing]

If there are any Bonds haters it's because of Bonds, not because of the media. He has a well earned reputation for being a jerk all the way back to his days in college, that's not something that the media just created. Jeff Kent is not the first teammate to think Barry Bonds is a jerk. Barry has always been all about himself. He really could care less about fans, teammates, or the media.

[gr8-1]

Is Morgan a racist by any chance? Dierker is not a disgrace, he is just overly cautious and doesn't know how to manage. Fuk Morgan and fuk records. Teams play this game to win, not to be the team that gave up the meaningless record setting homer. Fuk that phoney Joe Morgan.......

And btw, Bonds is a great player (probably the best in our era), but if anyone doesn't think that he's had pitches to hit, then they're mistaken. He had some fat pitches to hit in the middle stages of this record breaking season. Even the commentators were saying "What the fuk....taht was right over the plate."

[KellyDwyer]

Joe stinks. I think he pooped his pants.

www.desipio.com

[gr8-1]

btw, whe would Jeff Kent be jealous of Bonds? Because Bonds has his own leather lazy boy that noone else can sit in? I'm sure Kent can do the same. Is Kent jealous of Bonds because Kent won the mvp last year? BTW, rumor has it that Bonds left town early when he found out he didn't win the mvp last year. No congratulations to Kent or anything. But, what do you expect? Bonds was just being himself.

[Kim]

Wow, I think this is record speed for number of responses in a post started by me.

Francis 4 Prez: Jim Caple and sports writers all over the country are blasting Dierker for his strategy, so you're wrong on that point.

My thoughts- Astros Fans wanted in order of high to low:

1) An Astros win and Bonds hitting homers

2) An Astros win and Bonds getting struck out/beat by pitcher

3) An Astros win and Bonds getting pitched around

4) An Astros loss and Bonds getting homers

5) An Astros loss and Bonds getting beat by pitcher

6) An Astros loss and Bonds getting pitched around.

This seems like a pretty logical utility assumption based on Htown's fair weather fans...which doesn't mean bad.

The problem was the least liked thing happened 2 games and 8/9 of a game through the series. I'm not sure booing was fair in the pitching around sense, but if I were there I probably would have booed too mainly due to the Stros sucking ass the last two weeks.

Missed the game tonight, but glad that they won. Go 'Stros!

[francis 4 prez]

Originally posted by Kim
Wow, I think this is record speed for number of responses in a post started by me.

Francis 4 Prez: Jim Caple and sports writers all over the country are blasting Dierker for his strategy, so you're wrong on that point.



Of course Caple just a few days ago said he would pitch around Bonds, too, and then got mad that we did it. Didn't he call it an embarrassment or something. Just because this situation is getting heavily focused on doesn't give these people free reign to dump on Houston and call the team and manager weak or embarrassing. I never remember national, supposed to be impartial people come out and actually rip specific managers and teams and say they are ruining the game. That's what local talk radio is for. I think everyone is just getting mad because of the intentional walk down 8-1. I think that was really weak and stupid too. But other than that, pitching around bonds was not a bad idea. Just because the pitchers keep giving up hits after the walk doesn't mean you should've let bonds hit a homer to get the run out of the way.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by shanna
I'm hoping Bonds hits #71 today in a loss after the Astros beat St. Louis. I'd like to see the Bonds celebration while him and his teammates just got knocked out of the playoffs.

Nice call, shanna. I am hoping that the playoff spot clinching by the Astros can help them settle their nerves a bit and they can go on to sweep these damn Cards. And I have but one thing to say to Tony LaRussa:

"Take THAT, Nuclear Power Plant!"

[haven]

I'm not sure if what Dierker did paid off or not.

But one thing is clear, it was the smart thing to do in the first place.

Morgan's logic is obscene. By stating that you "don't put runners on base when you're behind," you're implying that it's the walk is a better idea when you're not behind.

That's simply not true. Runs are runs... and pitching to Barry is more likely to result in a run than walking him.

Over the course of 550 at bats, it's actually advantageous to walk Bonds if there's a runner on base. Bonds is insanely lethal, Kent is merely good. The Astros got burned a couple of times. But the decision was well-founded.

Sorry, winning comes before machismo.

[MadMax]

I haven't read all the posts here but I'll tell you what I think nevertheless! :)

I think the way the Astros handled the whole Bonds thing MIGHT have cost them a chance to win the division. They were more concerned with how they were going to handle Bonds than they were with winning. Then played prevent defense (and we all remember how well that worked in Buffalo!) over the course of the series...and it backfired and bit them in the ass.

It's one thing to walk Sammy Sosa who has little or no protection in his lineup...quite another to walk Bonds who is followed by Kent (last year's MVP) and Galarraga. And keep in mind, when we did pitch to Sammy it still played to our advantage..dude hit 3 homers (all solo shots) and we still one that game! Kent is merely good??? Huh??? Walking Bonds when he appears as a leadoff hitter in an inning is inexcusable. I totally agreed with the decision to walk him in the 6th inning of the Thursday game when Aurilia was on second and first was empty with one out...it ultimately set up a double play that ended the inning. I stood up and cheered that decision while seemingly everyone else at Enron booed it.

Dierker, as the manager, let this series get out of control. The stumbling the team was doing coming into the series was only made worse by the whole approach to Bonds. Pitch to him early in the series, strike his ass out (or get a ground/pop out) and you build the confidence of your staff. The old adage in baseball is to make the other guy beat you...the Astros didn't do that, and they went far and away to avoid that. It bothered me because even as an Astro fan I saw it as chicken excrement.

I do think Dierk jacked with the integrity of the game. He backed away from competition for fear of having a magic moment framed by the Giants at Enron. It was weak and the team looked weak...you never, ever win games by consistently putting runners on base everytime they appear at the plate. The baseball gods had their revenge though...ultimately he hit #70 in his last at-bat of the series and the Astros got their butts swept.

[fadeaway]

For you guys who disagree with walking Bonds because "it isn't the way the game is supposed to be played," how do you feel about the Hack-a-Shaq technique? I guess you disagree with that too and would rather lose with dignity instead of stooping to Hack-a-Shaq tactics, right? Gimme a break..

It is the exact same thing.....

[MadMax]

Hack-a-Shaq works....walking Bonds didn't! :)

Actually, it's not the same thing at all. While some creative offense (other than just dumping it in to the low block) could ultimately guide Shaq to some different alternatives --- or if he had an outside game, like Hakeem --- he could still prove effective. He wouldn't be totally nullified. Walking a guy...not giving him anything to hit...is fine in certain situations. But taking the bat out of the same guy's hands over and over again in a series is just chicken crap! The Astros organization lost so much respect (Dierker, in particular) from the rest of the league. I've heard that some of the players said, "well what did you expect from Larry" when asked about how he handled the situation. Ultimately they team was completely taken out of their game by this whole thing...management let it take on a life of its own that superseded the game itself. They fed the monster and it grew. Then it bit them in the ass by scoring nearly everytime!

Pitch to the guy..particularly when there's nobody on...make him beat you! Yes he's hit 69 homers at that point...but guess what, he's popped out, grounded out or struck out many more times than he's homered! Instead, they gave a free pass to a guy who is among all-time career leaders in runs scored. A guy who has last year's MVP batting right behind him. It's just stupid...and it ultimately helped to cost them the series as Dierker allowed it to blossom in to such a huge distraction.

[Puedlfor]

We walked Bonds in our first series against San Fran, and Kent didn't punish us(and he was not a deserving MVP last year), and I did not hear this same level of bitching. Of course, there weren't a legion of people wanting to see Bonds hit 70 then.

Pitching to Bonds is stupid. And pitching to Bonds will do more to make the opposing team lose than pitching to Kent with Bonds on base will.

I think its bull**** to get pissy with a manager because he didn't want to screw his team over by not pitching to a guy having a season equaled only by some guy named Ruth.

[Kim]

I'm not saying one way or the other, but....I don't see many Astros Players coming out to the press and standing up for Dierker's strategies. Again, I'm not saying one way or the other, but it would be quite interesting to hear from them after the season is all said and done. (Cause right now it's playoffs that should be on the mind.) And I'd bet my life savings (not much) that whatever the players do say (especially Bags, Big, Berk, and Alou oh, and of course the pitchers) will greatly affect many of y'alls opinions.


PS Hack-a-shaq is lame, weak-ass, pathetic way of playing basketball. Take it to the man, a don't back down.