Has LBJ now surpassed Kobe?

[roslolian]

I think with LBJ now winning his first ring in spectacular fashion and dispelling the "King without a ring" crowd, LBJ has now supplanted Kobe and is now the 2nd best wing player of all time. Sure Kobe has more rings, but LBJ has 3 MVPs to his name, and unlike Kobe LBJ was able to carry a sorry-ass team to the Finals, while Kobe couldn't do anything when he had Shaq traded and spent the season moping around, quitting against the Suns and then asking for a trade in the offseason.

I like Kobe a lot because of the 3 superstars (MJ, LBJ, Kobe) he's the one who is most approachable and he always has time for fans but as a b-ball player I think he's just inferior to LBJ. All of Kobe's rings were won with a dominant big by his side (Shaq/Gasol), one of the best coaches of all time (Phil J), AND he has had a pretty good cast of role players over the years (Odom, Ariza, Metta).

What do you guys think?

[Kojirou]

Uh, Larry Bird?

[Jamers]

Not yet. Maybe in the next couple of years

[Kam]

One ring and second best?


Eaaaaaaaaaaaaasy there.


Basketball skill wise, I think Kobe is better, but mixed with the freakish athleticism that Lebron has, it helps out definitely.

[Rocket River]

Allen Iverson took a WORSE team to the finals . . . .
taking your team to the finals mean nothing!!
Win it!

"He got 1 . . . good for him.
Could he have done it without the GREATNESS of Eric Spoelstra? - JVG

Rocket River

[lalala902102001]

Lebron is a better basketball player than Kobe ever was.

Still he needs more rings. This is a good start.

[Rocket River]

BTW - Wing Player = Guard and Forward?

Rocket River

[DarkHorse]

Not Kobe caliber (career wise) yet.

Right now he's clearly the best player in the league.

Having said that, it's still not a very good comparison. Two very different players.

[snc]

Misleading question.

Is he better than Kobe? Yes.

Is he the 2nd best player of all time? No.

[Kojirou]

No, but seriously, James to me is somewhere around 13 to 15, around the level of KG or Karl Malone. And as for non-big men, I'd still take Kobe, Dr J, Larry, and mayyybbbeee Oscar over Lebron as of now.

[Precision340]

not yet.. but he's well on his way

[Juxtaposed Jolt]

All of Kobe's rings were won with a dominant big by his side (Shaq/Gasol), one of the best coaches of all time (Phil J), AND he has had a pretty good cast of role players over the years (Odom, Ariza, Metta).

What do you guys think?

Not to completely dismiss your post, but:

- James JUST won with Bosh and Wade. It's not like LeBron didn't have anyone, like in Cleveland.

Also, Battier / Miller found the fountain of youth in this series, while Chalmers found the fountain of elders or something. All three were CRITICAL in the Heat winning this year.

James is already the best player in the world. If he keeps doing what he's doing, he'll be considered better than Kobe in a few years.

[t_mac1]

He's a better player NOW, and has been since 07-08. Career-wise? Let Lebron finish his career first please.

[Firebomb525]

Not yet. Very close, however. These are my rankings, IMO

Top 5 SF, no particular order
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Scottie Pippen

Top 5 SG, again no particular order
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Reggie Miller
Clyde Drexler
George Gervin

[LonghornFan]

Misleading question.

Is he better than Kobe? Yes.

Is he the 2nd best player of all time? No.

Yuuuuupppp!

[onreego]

Question is, for Kobe's big man opinion will Lebron have the same i.e. "he needed the super friends"? Haters will hate and will always come up with a reason to put an asterisk by something. A shortened season for example.

As for the role players comment, the role players had a huge part in this run. Shane, mike, Haslem, chalmers, cole...couldn't have done it without them.

[roslolian]

Not to completely dismiss your post, but:

- James JUST won with Bosh and Wade. It's not like LeBron didn't have anyone, like in Cleveland.

Also, Battier / Miller found the fountain of youth in this series, while Chalmers found the fountain of elders or something. All three were CRITICAL in the Heat winning this year.

James is already the best player in the world. If he keeps doing what he's doing, he'll be considered better than Kobe in a few years.

Yeah LBJ has won with Bosh and Wade, but thing is nobody wins with a crap team in the NBA anymore. Like I have said all of Kobe's ring were won when he has had an amazing team, and LBJ put up historic averages the past two seasons so its not like he's been slacking off.

As for the role player corps, every year you always have role players stepping up during title runs, like when Ariza exploded from the 3 during the year before we signed him, and then Metta winning a playoff series for the Lakers the next season.

As I said Kobe has more rings than him, but to me rings are more of team accomplishments, Kobe won a ring when he shot under 40% FG while LBJ put up near triple double numbers last year and didn't win anything. In terms of individual accomplishments LBJ has been beasting and had been better 3 years ago than Kobe ever was in his entire career, how many people out there got 3 MVPs? And he might get his fourth next year as well.

[KingLeoric]

Dude Lebron has been great but don't quickly forget what Kobe has accomplished and what he was capable of.

[napalm_black]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

No.

[JayGoogle]

Nope.

Kobe has done more.

Lebron's career is not over yet but it's going to be tough to accomplish what Kobe has.

[GotGame15]

knee jerk flavor of the month reaction....Kobe is still ahead of Lebron, by miles. Kobe has a relentless hunger about him. Let's see if Lebron has that same mentality in the coming few years. Congrats tho to him and the Heat.

[Mr. Space City]

1 more finals mvp and he's over kobe.

3 MVP's 2 Finals MVP's > 1 MVP 2 Finals MVP's

[kevC]

Lebron one of four players to led the league in PER 4+ years in a row: Jordan, Wilt, Shaquille. He definitely has surpassed Kobe and is in the conversation for 2nd greatest.

[htownrox1]

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/lol/grand/kobe_bryan_lol_gif.gif

[roslolian]

knee jerk flavor of the month reaction....Kobe is still ahead of Lebron, by miles. Kobe has a relentless hunger about him. Let's see if Lebron has that same mentality in the coming few years. Congrats tho to him and the Heat.

Hunger has 0% effect on actual production. It doesn't matter if Kobe has 10x more hunger than LBJ, LBJ's outproduced him anyway. As for those saying its too early, fact is LBJ's been doing this every year the past 4 years, people just don't recognize it because they leap on the "no ring, no recognition" bandwagon.

[david_rocket]

Not yet, but he has a good start, lets see how he finishes his career.

[jbasket]

It is funny because Lebron spent most of his time posting up in the finals. He played like a PF; compare him to one.

[clos4life]

First of all, congrats to Shane Battier for winning his ring. Second of all, LBJ is definitely a great player but has at least 5 more rings to go to say he surpassed Kobe.

[Nook]

No, but seriously, James to me is somewhere around 13 to 15, around the level of KG or Karl Malone. And as for non-big men, I'd still take Kobe, Dr J, Larry, and mayyybbbeee Oscar over Lebron as of now.

You are insane if you have Dr. J ahead of LBJ.

[amaru]

No disrespect to LBJ but Kobe has accomplished so much more to this point.

Lets see how the careers shake out.

[amaru]

LBJ is certainly has more talent than Kobe, but he isn't the better player at this point.

If he can string together a few more of these kind of performances I think he will be better in the future.

[Kojirou]

Lebron one of four players to led the league in PER 4+ years in a row: Jordan, Wilt, Shaquille. He definitely has surpassed Kobe and is in the conversation for 2nd greatest.

Do you think Wilt or Shaq are in the conversation for 2nd greatest? I don't. At all.

[ObamaFan]

Honestly would you rather have a 21 year old Kobe or LeBron?

For me its LeBron EASILYYY

He's bigger, faster, more athletic, and a better defender

Imagine LeBron with a prime Yao

[htownrox1]

Honestly would you rather have a 21 year old Kobe or LeBron?

For me its LeBron EASILYYY

He's bigger, faster, more athletic, and a better defender

Imagine LeBron with a prime Yao

And in the end, Kobe will have more rings and the bigger legacy.

[ObamaFan]

And in the end, Kobe will have more rings and the bigger legacy.


No he wont

[amaru]

Honestly would you rather have a 21 year old Kobe or LeBron?

For me its LeBron EASILYYY

He's bigger, faster, more athletic, and a better defender

Imagine LeBron with a prime Yao

Hard to compare both at the age of 21. Kobe was playing with future hall of famers then, LBJ was playing with scrubs.

[t_mac1]

Do you think Wilt or Shaq are in the conversation for 2nd greatest? I don't. At all.

Lebron is only halfway through his career.

When he's done, he'll have 5-6 MVPs, 1-2 DPOYs, at least 3 rings. He'll just be looking up at MJ barring any injuries.

The weight of winning a championship is finally off. He's playing with less pressure from now on. Sure, there will still be pressure of repeating and winning more rings, but nothing like what he has faced up till now. You're going to see a much more dominant Lebron starting next year. The only thing stopping this Heat team is if Wade is actually declining, and declining a lot.

He will never surpass Jordan b/c Jordan accomplished so much more individually, AND team-wise than Lebron ever did.

[ItsMyFault]

Lebron is only halfway through his career.

When he's done, he'll have 5-6 MVPs, 1-2 DPOYs, at least 3 rings. He'll just be looking up at MJ barring any injuries.

The weight of winning a championship is finally off. He's playing with less pressure from now on. Sure, there will still be pressure of repeating and winning more rings, but nothing like what he has faced up till now. You're going to see a much more dominant Lebron starting next year. The only thing stopping this Heat team is if Wade is actually declining, and declining a lot.

He will never surpass Jordan b/c Jordan accomplished so much more individually, AND team-wise than Lebron ever did.

And because Jordan was a more talented basketball player.

[ObamaFan]

Lebron is only halfway through his career.

When he's done, he'll have 5-6 MVPs, 1-2 DPOYs, at least 3 rings. He'll just be looking up at MJ barring any injuries.

The weight of winning a championship is finally off. He's playing with less pressure from now on. Sure, there will still be pressure of repeating and winning more rings, but nothing like what he has faced up till now. You're going to see a much more dominant Lebron starting next year. The only thing stopping this Heat team is if Wade is actually declining, and declining a lot.

He will never surpass Jordan b/c Jordan accomplished so much more individually, AND team-wise than Lebron ever did.


YEP

compare LeBron at 27 to MJ at 27, and Lebron is way ahead( sans the DPOY)

[ObamaFan]

And because Jordan was a more talented basketball player.


Its closer than you think

LeBron is a better rebounder, athletism( virtual tie), passing instincts go to LeBron, both sucked at 3's. LeBron is a better defender

I mean i dont know how you can say MJ is miles ahead of Lebron


Oh and if LeBron wanted to selfishly go after scoring titles( with how effiecent he is).. he could do it

[t_mac1]

And because Jordan was a more talented basketball player.

Jordan was a better player period. Nobody will ever surpass what Jordan accomplished as a player.

But we may be witnessing the #2 player of all time in his prime right now. Let's see how Lebron comes out next year. If he still has that hunger, the league is in trouble.

[cjtaylorpt]

Yes. He has been even without the ring. This only solidifies it. I don't care if you agree.

[sugrlndkid]

no hate...but Kobe has accomplished more...Lebron is currently the best player in the game...but Kobe has already established himself as an all time great...and just because Lebron has 3 MVPs...doesnt mean anything till he gets it again...Just to remind myself...i look at the second greatest scoring output in NBA history...81...unreal...

Lebron will need 3 rings to solidfy himself as a Magic, Jordan equal...till then...he is just a top 15 player of all time...

[ItsMyFault]

Jordan was a better player period. Nobody will ever surpass what Jordan accomplished as a player.

But we may be witnessing the #2 player of all time in his prime right now. Let's see how Lebron comes out next year. If he still has that hunger, the league is in trouble.

Indeed. That's what I want to see. How will he be now after he got that first one.

[ObamaFan]

Yes. He has been even without the ring. This only solidifies it. I don't care if you agree.


Agreed

[htownrox1]

YEP

compare LeBron at 27 to MJ at 27, and Lebron is way ahead( sans the DPOY)

This argument is so stupid. Michael went to college, Lebron didn't. Michael was 21 in his first year in the Nba, Lebron was 19. It took Michael 7 years to win a title, it took Lebron 9.

Yes age wise it would seem like he is, but you have to look at the big picture.

[ObamaFan]

no hate...but Kobe has accomplished more...Lebron is currently the best player in the game...but Kobe has already established himself as an all time great...and just because Lebron has 3 MVPs...doesnt mean anything till he gets it again...Just to remind myself...i look at the second greatest scoring output in NBA history...81...unreal...

Lebron will need 3 rings to solidfy himself as a Magic, Jordan equal...till then...he is just a top 15 player of all time...


LeBron should have 4 straight MVP's. They gave it too D-Rose because the fans didnt wanna vote for Lebron

D.Rose i like as a player, but man is he overrated. Westbrook just had a better season than Rose had last year.


LeBron is the best player, and he is close to the Top 10 All-Time

Can you name 15 players in the history of the NBA better than LeBron James(i cant)

[Mr. Space City]

lebron's post season/finals this year was more dominate than any kobe championship year

[CantBeRight]

First he needs 4 more rings.

So hell no.

[ObamaFan]

lebron's post season/finals this year was more dominate than any kobe championship year


Yes they have been

[ObamaFan]

First he needs 4 more rings.

So hell no.


Kobe won 2 as the man, if LeBron wins 2 more rings not only does he pass Kobe, but he moves EASILY in the top 5 ALL-TIME

[OremLK]

Kobe already had a three-peat under his belt by this time in his career. However, I credit those championships more to Shaq, who was in his prime and was CLEARLY the best player on his team in those seasons.

Dwyane Wade is an awesome player, but Shaq in his prime was on another level, and was carrying that team.

I think LeBron will likely wind up with fewer championships than Kobe, but I would argue he contributes more production to his team than Kobe ever did.

[GreatOne1978]

https://p.twimg.com/Av95mkpCMAAQd7-.jpg

[gmoney411]

Kobe won 2 as the man, if LeBron wins 2 more rings not only does he pass Kobe, but he moves EASILY in the top 5 ALL-TIME

It's unfair to completely discount Kobe's first three rings. It's not his fault that he spent a good amount of his prime years playing with Shaq and then a super scrub team. If you let Kobe have a team built around him for his entire career there is a real good chance he ends up with 3 or 4 on his own. Lebron has had the privilege of always being the man and the first option on his team.

[Air Langhi]

First of all, congrats to Shane Battier for winning his ring. Second of all, LBJ is definitely a great player but has at least 5 more rings to go to say he surpassed Kobe.

The rings argument is weak. Kobe has more rings than shaq so he must be better? Horry has 7 so he must be better than MJ. Russel must be better than wilt he has 11 to wilts 3.

Lebron James has the the 2nd highest PER of all time. He has the 3rd highest playoff PER of all time.

[ObamaFan]

The rings argument is weak. Kobe has more rings than shaq so he must be better? Horry has 7 so he must be better than MJ. Russel must be better than wilt he has 11 to wilts 3.

Lebron James has the the 2nd highest PER of all time. He has the 3rd highest playoff PER of all time.


Game, Set, and Match

[supdudes]

First off congrats LeBron for winning a ring.

Let's get two things straight though. LBJ, right now, does not have the better career, and those who discount Kobe's first three rings should check the stats he put up or watch some of those games. Plus, look who the Heat had? Nuff said on that bit.

Secondly, old-school fans like myself will always value Kobe's drive and hunger more than LeBron's, regardless of rings...so this moment right now does little to sway our opinions.

Again, congrats to a great, great player in James. Looks like he's officially a winner now

[Fullcourt]

Passed Kobe? Yes

Second best? Nope

[daywalker02]

It's unfair to completely discount Kobe's first three rings. It's not his fault that he spent a good amount of his prime years playing with Shaq and then a super scrub team. If you let Kobe have a team built around him for his entire career there is a real good chance he ends up with 3 or 4 on his own. Lebron has had the privilege of always being the man and the first option on his team.

they are different players..... but a triple double threat kind of player is more valuable than a full time scorer with the occasional passing

They were going against Boston virtually with a banged up Wade, and mostly without Bosh, and old timer role players. Without any viable big man.
Bosh is half a man.
Lebron is everything Kobe isn't, and Kobe is what Lebron is not....

[Icehouse]

LeBron should have 4 straight MVP's. They gave it too D-Rose because the fans didnt wanna vote for Lebron

D.Rose i like as a player, but man is he overrated. Westbrook just had a better season than Rose had last year.


LeBron is the best player, and he is close to the Top 10 All-Time

Can you name 15 players in the history of the NBA better than LeBron James(i cant)

Depends on how you judge the old school. Just from the modern era:

Cap
Dream
Shaq
Moses
Duncan
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kobe

That's 9, and doesn't include any of the followind old timers:

Russell
Wilt
Oscar
West
Baylor
Dr J

[supdudes]

Lebron is everything Kobe isn't, and Kobe is what Lebron is not....

Boom to the moon! Truer words have not been said.

[gmoney411]

they are different players..... but a triple double threat kind of player is more valuable than a full time scorer with the occasional passing

They were going against Boston virtually with a banged up Wade, and mostly without Bosh, and old timer role players. Without any viable big man.
Bosh is half a man.
Lebron is everything Kobe isn't, and Kobe is what Lebron is not....

I can agree with that. If you have a bad team Lebron is the better player because he can do so many things. However, if I have a well built team I'm taking Kobe because I don't believe your best player needs to be the best at everything.

I just get annoyed with the Kobe only having 2 rings as the man argument because he didn't really get to be the man with a quality team until midway through his 12th year in the league and he did work with that squad. IMO he was out of his prime by the 2010-2011 season so we are only talking about a 2.5-3.5 year window max.

[Icehouse]

It's unfair to completely discount Kobe's first three rings. It's not his fault that he spent a good amount of his prime years playing with Shaq and then a super scrub team. If you let Kobe have a team built around him for his entire career there is a real good chance he ends up with 3 or 4 on his own. Lebron has had the privilege of always being the man and the first option on his team.

Not discounting pointing out he didn't lead those teams to titles. Some folks make the mistake thinking Bron or others need to lead a team to 5 titles to catch Kobe, as if Kobe did that. Folks act like Kobe has led a team to more rings than Shaq or Duncan as well.

[gmoney411]

Not discounting pointing out he didn't lead those teams to titles. Some folks make the mistake thinking Bron or others need to lead a team to 5 titles to catch Kobe, as if Kobe did that. Folks act like Kobe has led a team to more rings than Shaq or Duncan as well.

I think the conversation starts at 3.

[ObamaFan]

Put LeBron James on any team in the NBA, and they will win 50 games at least


Can you say that for Kobe

[Icehouse]

I think the conversation starts at 3.

Based on what? Kobe hasn't led his team to 3. Now if you give full weight to other super stud dudes who didn't lead their team to a title (i.e. McHale in 86) then that changes the whole convo, but I'm sure you can admit most don't give credit that way.

I guess my question is why does LeBron have to lead a team to more titles than Kobe did for the convo to start?

[gmoney411]

Put LeBron James on any team in the NBA, and they will win 50 games at least


Can you say that for Kobe

The Bulls only won two less games when Jordan left and that was with Pippen missing for a six or so game stretch. Regular season wins do not determine greatness.

[gmoney411]

Based on what? Kobe hasn't led his team to 3. Now if you give full weight to other super stud dudes who didn't lead their team to a title (i.e. McHale in 86) then that changes the whole convo, but I'm sure you can admit most don't give credit that way.

I guess my question is why does LeBron have to lead a team to more titles than Kobe did for the convo to start?

Because Kobe wasn't given the keys to a quality team until year 12 in his career while Lebron got it in year 8. Also, Kobe does deserve some credit for those first three rings so I think factoring that it in it is fair to say 3 but that's just my personal opinion. To just say 2 is ignoring that Lebron will likely have many more opportunities as lead dog to get more rings.

[Icehouse]

Because Kobe wasn't given the keys to a quality team until year 12 in his career while Lebron got it in year 8.

And? What does that have to do with anything? Can't I just assume if LeBron were given Shaq for 8 years that he would already be sitting at 3?


Also, Kobe does deserve some credit for those first three rings so I think factoring that it in it is fair to say 3 but that's just my personal opinion. To just say 2 is ignoring that Lebron will likely have many more opportunities as lead dog to get more rings.

Of course Kobe deserves credit. But not the type that you are extending to him. Kobe hasn't led a team to 5 titles. That's like saying Duncan needed 1 more ring to match Kobe...a dude he led a team to more titles than.

[kaleidosky]

i voted yes, because i thought you meant "in the NBA right now"

I change to no

[daywalker02]

I can agree with that. If you have a bad team Lebron is the better player because he can do so many things. However, if I have a well built team I'm taking Kobe because I don't believe your best player needs to be the best at everything.

I just get annoyed with the Kobe only having 2 rings as the man argument because he didn't really get to be the man with a quality team until midway through his 12th year in the league and he did work with that squad. IMO he was out of his prime by the 2010-2011 season so we are only talking about a 2.5-3.5 year window max.

Kobe would have won 3 without Shaq.... that is reasonable.... but man think about that, a former 13th pick coming into the league for a few years and he has the top 3 pivot of all time in his prime going to war with......

It's all about chemistry..... they did not win one with Karla and the Glove

[Mr. Space City]

29/10/7 47% FG

has kobe ever been more dominate than that in the finals?

[daywalker02]

I can agree with that. If you have a bad team Lebron is the better player because he can do so many things. However, if I have a well built team I'm taking Kobe because I don't believe your best player needs to be the best at everything.



Don't necessarily agree with the bad team rap....
Kobe is a more dangerous player shooting daggers and being one on one, but Lebron improved a lot mentally....now he is better than ever this year thanks to Hakeem
Kobe stated that he learned from the masters of the game all his life whereas Lebron started learning from others the past two years....

Think about that. Championship rings do not reveal everything.
You tell me who is more gifted..... given that Kobe has more killer instinct.

[gmoney411]

And? What does that have to do with anything? Can't I just assume if LeBron were given Shaq for 8 years that he would already be sitting at 3?

It has everything to do with it if you are going to say that Kobe only has two rings as the main guy. He basically spent 4-7 of his prime years either playing with Shaq or a really bad roster. And sure you can give Lebron 3 rings with Shaq but then you have to let him spend 3 years with a team made up of the likes of smush parker, luke walton and kwame brown before he gets anything decent around him.


course Kobe deserves credit. But not the type that you are extending to him. Kobe hasn't led a team to 5 titles. That's like saying Duncan needed 1 more ring to match Kobe...a dude he led a team to more titles than.

I'm giving him 1/3 of the credit for 3 rings. You think it's better to just say the first 8 years of his career don't count when factoring in how good of a player he is? If we are saying the comparison starts at 2 rings then that is basically what you are doing.

[gmoney411]

Don't necessarily agree with the bad team rap....
Kobe is a more dangerous player shooting daggers and being one on one, but Lebron improved a lot mentally....now he is better than ever this year thanks to Hakeem
Kobe stated that he learned from the masters of the game all his life whereas Lebron started learning from others the past two years....

Think about that. Championship rings do not reveal everything.
You tell me who is more gifted..... given that Kobe has more killer instinct.

I think Kobe is the better player if you are factoring in personality/drive/instinct

[daywalker02]

And sure you can give Lebron 3 rings with Shaq but then you have to let him spend 3 years with a team made up of the likes of smush parker, luke walton and kwame brown before he gets anything decent around him.


Come on, man. I get you appreciate Kobe more..... Lebron has already been punished by playing with a mediocre team... That was CLEVELAND for a few years

[gmoney411]

Come on, man. I get you appreciate Kobe more..... Lebron has already been punished by playing with a mediocre team... That was CLEVELAND for a few years

lol in that scenario Cleveland never happened

[amaru]

Put LeBron James on any team in the NBA, and they will win 50 games at least


Can you say that for Kobe

In his prime......yes.

[daywalker02]

I think Kobe is the better player if you are factoring in personality/drive/instinct

Alright but you will see Lebron will into a Hulk version of Hakeem.
but with emotions under control

[daywalker02]

Alright but you will see Lebron will * into a Hulk version of Hakeem.
but with emotions under control

*turn

[clippy]

He passed Kobe a long time ago, but this title was necessary for the world to recognize it. Casual fans don't appreciate that titles are a team accomplishment, and up until last year LeBron never had a team comparable to what Kobe has had his whole career (except for three years when he missed the playoffs or was knocked out in the first round.. something prime LeBron never did). Kobe has pretty good longevity but basically he's a glorified chucker, nowhere close to the basketball machine that is LeBron James. The world is starting to recognize this thanks to the recent playoff performance, and in the next few years it won't even be a question.

[ObamaFan]

In his prime......yes.


Nah Kobe was in his prime in 2006 and 2007 and they were a garbage team


Kobe doesnt make his teammates better like LeBron does

[leebigez]

Dude Lebron has been great but don't quickly forget what Kobe has accomplished and what he was capable of.

Look at kobe in the finals. If lebron got to play with shaq in his prime,he would've won 6 rings easy. If lebron had gasol and a bynum,he would won multiple rings.

[gmoney411]

He passed Kobe a long time ago, but this title was necessary for the world to recognize it. Casual fans don't appreciate that titles are a team accomplishment, and up until last year LeBron never had a team comparable to what Kobe has had his whole career (except for three years when he missed the playoffs or was knocked out in the first round.. something prime LeBron never did). Kobe has pretty good longevity but basically he's a glorified chucker, nowhere close to the basketball machine that is LeBron James. The world is starting to recognize this thanks to the recent playoff performance, and in the next few years it won't even be a question.

So if you replace Kobe with Lebron on those Lakers teams you think they beat the Suns?

[clippy]

So if you replace Kobe with Lebron on those Lakers teams you think they beat the Suns?

Um, absolutely? Considering that LBJ got the Finals with a worse team than that (he had no one as good as Odom on that team). Even if you say that that competition in the East was weak, the Detroit team they beat in the ECF was still better than the Suns (who were without Amare and went 7 games with the Clippers, mind you). In fact, that Suns team was basically Nash + Marion + scrubs .. not really different from Kobe + Odom + scrubs.

[The_Yoyo]

Honestly if anyone is the second coming of Jordan its Kobe Bryant, he just is not as good as Jordan

If anyone is the second coming of Magic Johnson, its LeBron James, but James could be even more spectacular than Magic was.

Both James and Bryant are once in a generation talents and all of us here should appreciate that we got/get to see them play along with guys like Duncan, Garnett, Durant etc.

[clippy]

Kobe is in the Jordan mold but there is literally nothing he does at the level of Jordan, except maybe slightly better long range shooting. So really he's in the tier with VC, TMac, AI, Allen, etc. He just had great teammates and excellent longevity.

LeBron is different because there has never been a player in the modern era that is like him. He is a player with the size of Karl Malone and the skill of Magic Johnson. When all is said and done, he will be ranked far higher than Kobe (smart fans rank him higher now), simply because he brings a lot more to the table. He doesn't need five rings to rationalize that because rings are a product of the team and the competition at the time.

[gmoney411]

Um, absolutely? Considering that LBJ got the Finals with a worse team than that (he had no one as good as Odom on that team). Even if you say that that competition in the East was weak, the Detroit team they beat in the ECF was still better than the Suns (who were without Amare and went 7 games with the Clippers, mind you). In fact, that Suns team was basically Nash + Marion + scrubs .. not really different from Kobe + Odom + scrubs.

Borid Diaw was far from a scrub back then and Barbosa was one of the better 6th men in the league. Shawn Marion was also a much better player than Odom. Lebron on that Lakers team with no shooters would have had some problems.

[javal_lon]

Lebron is in a class by himself... **** comparing him to Jordan(scorer) and Magic (passer)..... Were gonna be comparing someone else to Lebron 20 years from now

[gmoney411]

Kobe is in the Jordan mold but there is literally nothing he does at the level of Jordan, except maybe slightly better long range shooting. So really he's in the tier with VC, TMac, AI, Allen, etc. He just had great teammates and excellent longevity.

LeBron is different because there has never been a player in the modern era that is like him. He is a player with the size of Karl Malone and the skill of Magic Johnson. When all is said and done, he will be ranked far higher than Kobe (smart fans rank him higher now), simply because he brings a lot more to the table. He doesn't need five rings to rationalize that because rings are a product of the team and the competition at the time.

You know its a good thing we have you around to tell us who the smart fans are. I'm sure you think plenty of guys that played in the league are idiots because many have often said that they think Kobe is a better player than Lebron. You should really stop trying to sound all knowing and realize that they are two different players and it is debatable who is better. Larry Legend said he would rather play with Kobe just a few months ago.

[JayGoogle]

Well folks need to understand.

Lebron is the more COMPLETE player, does not make him the better player though.

Is Magic better than Jordan? Magic was the more complete player most will probably agree...but Jordan got it done.

Great players can in a sense be one dimensional, it's results that matter. Perfect example in another sport, lots of folks will say Arian Foster is the most complete HB in the NFL...but still not better than Peterson...because what Peterson does he does really well and you can't stop it.

That's what Kobe is, not a 'glorified' chucker. Kobe in his prime drained those shots with ease. I really wish people could rewind and watch Kobe back in his prime.

If you want to say Lebron is better than Kobe because he's the more complete player fine. I guess he's better than Bird too then.

I'll wait until their careers are done though but right now no, no Lebron has not surpassed Kobe and I'm sure he'll even tell you that. Yeah rings are a team accomplishment but in basketball all the greats are measured by it fair or not.

[ObamaFan]

You know its a good thing we have you around to tell us who the smart fans are. I'm sure you think plenty of guys that played in the league are idiots because many have often said that they think Kobe is a better player than Lebron. You should really stop trying to sound all knowing and realize that they are two different players and it is debatable who is better. Larry Legend said he would rather play with Kobe just a few months ago.


That comment was taken out of context


Larry Bird also said that LeBron was better than Kobe too


Its just why would Larry Bird wanna play with another player who plays exactly like him on the offensive end

LeBron like Larry Bird are more unselfish players, so you wont want to play with another player similar to you.

Perfect example: You think Kobe would want to play with Michael Jordan or AGAINIST HIM?

[gmoney411]

That comment was taken out of context


Larry Bird also said that LeBron was better than Kobe too


Its just why would Larry Bird wanna play with another player who plays exactly like him on the offensive end

LeBron like Larry Bird are more unselfish players, so you wont want to play with another player similar to you.

Perfect example: You think Kobe would want to play with Michael Jordan or AGAINIST HIM?

Bird said that LeBron was by far the best player in the league right now. That does not mean he thinks LeBron is better than Kobe because Kobe is already past his prime and LeBron is clearly the better player right now. When asked of any current player he would want to play with he responded Kobe. I'm not sure why you think Lebron and Bird couldn't exist. They would compliment each other pretty well actually. Jordan and Kobe however do the same thing on the court so it would be too redundant to have both.

[clippy]

You know its a good thing we have you around to tell us who the smart fans are. I'm sure you think plenty of guys that played in the league are idiots because many have often said that they think Kobe is a better player than Lebron. You should really stop trying to sound all knowing and realize that they are two different players and it is debatable who is better. Larry Legend said he would rather play with Kobe just a few months ago.

They are two different players but it isn't debatable who is better. Kobe does one thing better than LeBron, and that's shoot. LeBron is a better driver, passer, rebounder, defender, is far more efficient and has a far better contract. I guess if you have a team where you have absolutely no outside shooting, you might want Kobe instead of LeBron... but then again shooters are a dime a dozen in this league and it would be smarter to just take LeBron and pick up some spot up shooters.

When these two played on the same team in the Olympics, it was clear that LeBron was better (the Kobetards will point to one big shot Kobe hit in the final game without noting that LeBron outplayed Kobe in every game). This was four years ago when the gap was closer (but still not that close).

If some NBA players think Kobe is better, that's their call, but there are plenty of players who can play the game without being able to evaluate talent (this is why many players are awful coaches and awful GMs).

[gmoney411]

If some NBA players think Kobe is better, that's their call, but there are plenty of players who can play the game without being able to evaluate talent (this is why many players are awful coaches and awful GMs).

How about Larry Bird? Former coach of the year and current executive of the year. Is he not a good evaluator of talent? You think you are the smart one compared to Bird?

[J-Tang]

I don't understand how people can keep saying "If LBJ had Gasol on his team he would have won multiple titles" or "If LBJ had Shaq he would have won multiple titles."

I actually find that highly doubtful considering in REAL LIFE Lebron had Wade AND Bosh and STILL lost in 2010.

[fmp087]

In his prime......yes.

Post-Shaq

04-05: 34-48
05-06: 45-37
06-07: 42-40
07-08: 35-20 before gasol trade; 22-5 after gasol trade.

[daywalker02]

I don't understand how people can keep saying "If LBJ had Gasol on his team he would have won multiple titles" or "If LBJ had Shaq he would have won multiple titles."

I actually find that highly doubtful considering in REAL LIFE Lebron had Wade AND Bosh and STILL lost in 2010.

the same thing.... Kobe had Malone, Shaq and Payton....
Chemistry has to grow

[clippy]

I don't understand how people can keep saying "If LBJ had Gasol on his team he would have won multiple titles" or "If LBJ had Shaq he would have won multiple titles."

I actually find that highly doubtful considering in REAL LIFE Lebron had Wade AND Bosh and STILL lost in 2010.

Yes, and in REAL LIFE Kobe only won a title 3/8 years with Shaq, who was by far the most dominant player in the league (one year he had Karl Malone and Gary Payton too and was supposed to win a laugher in the Finals against a Detroit team that went 7 games with the Nets who got swept by the Lakers two years prior).

The fact is that LBJ must be pretty amazing if the expectation is that he will win the title in his first year, and every year, just because he finally has some good teammates. He didn't and won't, but he's going to win a lot more because he is that good.

[clippy]

How about Larry Bird? Former coach of the year and current executive of the year. Is he not a good evaluator of talent? You think you are the smart one compared to Bird?

Well, I contend that if Bird had a choice between Kobe and LeBron for his Pacers, it'd be a no-brainer, but he can't say that out loud because he respects Kobe a great deal.

He actually never said Kobe was better than LeBron (I believe he called LeBron the best player in the league). He said that he'd rather play with Kobe if he could play with one for a single season because Kobe had a competitive drive that was similar to Bird's. Although after this year, his opinion of LeBron may have changed since LeBron just put on a competitive playoff performance for the ages and surely swayed some doubters who didn't think he had "it".

[ObamaFan]

I don't understand how people can keep saying "If LBJ had Gasol on his team he would have won multiple titles" or "If LBJ had Shaq he would have won multiple titles."

I actually find that highly doubtful considering in REAL LIFE Lebron had Wade AND Bosh and STILL lost in 2010.


That Mavs team beat the Lakers too, with Gasol, Kobe, and Bynum( sweep)

[JayGoogle]

People need to stop bringing up Karl Malone and Payton as if they were in their prime.

Malone RETIRED the next year and Payton got his ring being a bit player for the Heat and then retired.

[ObamaFan]

They are two different players but it isn't debatable who is better. Kobe does one thing better than LeBron, and that's shoot. LeBron is a better driver, passer, rebounder, defender, is far more efficient and has a far better contract. I guess if you have a team where you have absolutely no outside shooting, you might want Kobe instead of LeBron... but then again shooters are a dime a dozen in this league and it would be smarter to just take LeBron and pick up some spot up shooters.

When these two played on the same team in the Olympics, it was clear that LeBron was better (the Kobetards will point to one big shot Kobe hit in the final game without noting that LeBron outplayed Kobe in every game). This was four years ago when the gap was closer (but still not that close).

If some NBA players think Kobe is better, that's their call, but there are plenty of players who can play the game without being able to evaluate talent (this is why many players are awful coaches and awful GMs).


laughable..

Lebron has a higher career FG% which means techincally he shoots better than Kobe

[clippy]

People need to stop bringing up Karl Malone and Payton as if they were in their prime.

Malone RETIRED the next year and Payton got his ring being a bit player for the Heat and then retired.

This is true, and I think Malone was also injured in the Finals. Still, Shaq was in his prime (should have been MVP the following year and won a title the year after that), and everyone thought that the Lakers were going to sweep the no-name Pistons in the Finals. And they would have if Kobe wasn't so desperate to get out from under Shaq's shadow that Finals, putting on the most disgraceful display of chucking I've ever seen.

[clippy]

laughable..

Lebron has a higher career FG% which means techincally he shoots better than Kobe

Kobe is most certainly a better long-range shooter than LeBron, but LeBron is way more efficient because he takes better shots.

[gmoney411]

Well, I contend that if Bird had a choice between Kobe and LeBron for his Pacers, it'd be a no-brainer, but he can't say that out loud because he respects Kobe a great deal.

He actually never said Kobe was better than LeBron (I believe he called LeBron the best player in the league). He said that he'd rather play with Kobe if he could play with one for a single season because Kobe had a competitive drive that was similar to Bird's. Although after this year, his opinion of LeBron may have changed since LeBron just put on a competitive playoff performance for the ages and surely swayed some doubters who didn't think he had "it".

And why do you think he'd rather take Lebron? Young Kobe was a media darling just as much as Lebron was. Bird's reason for wanting Kobe was that he thought he put in more work in practice and was just more dedicated to the game and less about the off the court stuff. I don't think this one season will convince Larry that Lebron is now a harder worker than Kobe is. Lastly, yes he didn't say Kobe was better than Lebron but he said Kobe is the player you want on your team if you want to win and isn't that the most important thing?

Are you still unwilling to admit that people that know a lot about basketball would choose Kobe over Lebron?

[JayGoogle]

laughable..

Lebron has a higher career FG% which means techincally he shoots better than Kobe

This is because Lebron takes a lot more shots in the paint. It'd be like saying a big man is a better shooter because of his FG%.

Kobe is undoubtedly the better shooter far and away. You are never going to see teams GIVE Kobe a open jumper like they do Lebron.

[clippy]

And why do you think he'd rather take Lebron? Young Kobe was a media darling just as much as Lebron was. Bird's reason for wanting Kobe was that he thought he put in more work in practice and was just more dedicated to the game and less about the off the court stuff. I don't think this one season will convince Larry that Lebron is now a harder worker than Kobe is. Lastly, yes he didn't say Kobe was better than Lebron but he said Kobe is the player you want on your team if you want to win and isn't that the most important thing?

Are you still unwilling to admit that people that know a lot about basketball would choose Kobe over Lebron?

I am not really sure what Larry's opinion would be today, or even what it was then, given that he called it a really "hard question" and has also said Lebron is the "best player in our league" (http://tracking.si.com/2012/05/14/larry-bird-praises-lebron-james-as-the-best-player-in-our-league/).

I can tell you that a lot of people used to say that Magic and Bird were better than Jordan when Jordan didn't win (was about the same age as LeBron now), but public opinion changed a lot over the next few years. And it'll happen now too. It just takes a while for the casual fans to recognize, because they look at team accomplishments as the barometer for greatness.

Really, would prime Ray Allen have done so worse than Kobe if he had had Shaq or Gasol+Bynum+Odom for 3/4 of his career?

[ObamaFan]

This is because Lebron takes a lot more shots in the paint. It'd be like saying a big man is a better shooter because of his FG%.

Kobe is undoubtedly the better shooter far and away. You are never going to see teams GIVE Kobe a open jumper like they do Lebron.


You mean "SMART" high percentage shots

[GreatOne1978]

more like easy shots thanks to teammates

http://i45.tinypic.com/2m7ubfm.jpg

Battier and co provided spacing for him to work in the paint

https://twitter.com/NBAonESPNRadio/status/216008591197483010

Mike Miller is stuck on automatic - 7 threes. ‪#Heat‬ have set a ‪#NBAFinals‬ record with 41 3PT FGM in a 5 Game Series.

[Canadiandude]

If I had to build a team from scratch and had to choose between Kobe in his prime vs LBJ 2012, it would be a no brainer to go with Lebron. LBJ was utterly dominating while playing within a teamball concept. Unbelievable talent.

[JayGoogle]

You mean "SMART" high percentage shots

It's play style though, he's not a better shooter than Kobe.

He also has a higher FG% than Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, and Dirk...is he the better shooter?

Teams still rather give him a open jumper, You never see that against Kobe because it'd be like giving him 2 points.

[Rockets Jones]

See this is what is wrong with the NBA and many of you guys falling for it. A championship is about the team, not an individual. I am sure the media now will start to fall in love with Lebron, because he "legitimized" to be called a king which they started to call him in the 1st place. All of a sudden he's the man just because he won a ring. It doesn't mean a damn thing.

Olajuwon would've been great regardless of a championship. Same goes for all the other great players. Lebron was always going to be the best. Also the way the Heat assembled their team and how terrible they are outside of the big 3 + Chalmers who's okay makes this one of the worst teams to win a championship ever.

Remember your own 93-94 Rockets? Individually, people didn't think they were that good but they were on the best teams to win it. Everybody had their role, they had a legitimate 8-9 man rotation and a good coach. Spoelstra should count his lucky stars he had those 3 guys because he's not that good. All the free agents can just hope to sign with Miami so they can win a championship. It's not a team and will never be a team.

So maybe Lebron should get a lot of credit, but to me he's a nobody since he left Cleveland. I loved him back then, even with his ego and everything. That team in 07 he took to the finals, at least was a team. They didn't play spectacular, they didn't have the names but they were a team and Lebron could've at least then said he was the leader and carried them on his back when he needed to. Now, I don't know what he can to himself other then I play great individual basketball and won a ring.

[fchowd0311]

I honestly don't care who is better. Ya LeBron would help a team more than Kobe, but nba is all about entertainment and Kobe was just more fun to watch in his prime. LeBron is just a glorified post up player in a guards body. Amazing player and will be one of the greatest of all time but Kobe was just pure fun to watch. He was infinitely more creative than LeBron and his midrange game was so pretty.

[gmoney411]

I am not really sure what Larry's opinion would be today, or even what it was then, given that he called it a really "hard question" and has also said Lebron is the "best player in our league" (http://tracking.si.com/2012/05/14/larry-bird-praises-lebron-james-as-the-best-player-in-our-league/).

I can tell you that a lot of people used to say that Magic and Bird were better than Jordan when Jordan didn't win (was about the same age as LeBron now), but public opinion changed a lot over the next few years. And it'll happen now too. It just takes a while for the casual fans to recognize, because they look at team accomplishments as the barometer for greatness.

Really, would prime Ray Allen have done so worse than Kobe if he had had Shaq or Gasol+Bynum+Odom for 3/4 of his career?

Larry Bird isn't a casual fan. You were talking as if it was super obvious who is the better player career was. If Larry said it's a hard question then it is definitely debatable right? Nobody is saying Lebron will never be considered better than Kobe but right now that is still up for debate by a lot of people with more basketball knowledge than you.

Ray Allen would not have won rings with Gasol and Bynum. Kobe actually has a better career shooting percentage than Ray and that's even after Ray had the benefit of boosting his career stats while playing the Celtics. Kobe is also a better rebounder, defender, and passer. I think Ray would have got 2 or 3 with Shaq though.

[daywalker02]

I honestly don't care who is better. Ya LeBron would help a team more than Kobe, but nba is all about entertainment and Kobe was just more fun to watch in his prime. LeBron is just a glorified post up player in a guards body. Amazing player and will be one of the greatest of all time but Kobe was just pure fun to watch. He was infinitely more creative than LeBron and his midrange game was so pretty.

You could actually say he is a glorified guard, swing man in a tank's body.

[clippy]

So maybe Lebron should get a lot of credit, but to me he's a nobody since he left Cleveland. I loved him back then, even with his ego and everything. That team in 07 he took to the finals, at least was a team. They didn't play spectacular, they didn't have the names but they were a team and Lebron could've at least then said he was the leader and carried them on his back when he needed to. Now, I don't know what he can to himself other then I play great individual basketball and won a ring.

This doesn't make sense, because one of the stories of this Finals was how well the Heat role players like Battier and Chalmers played, and Mike Miller was the unexpected hero of the last game. LeBron had 13 assists and a bunch were to these guys. That is the essence of team ball, and it is the main thing that makes LeBron so much better than Kobe, who fails to get his teammates involved time and time again.

LeBron left Cleveland because he knew he was never going to win a championship there. The talent was just not good enough, and you need talent to win a title even if you play perfect team ball. What LeBron did was the right move if he was interested in becoming a champion... the way he did it was not, but if that's the worst thing he ever does, he's done pretty well for himself.

[ObamaFan]

more like easy shots thanks to teammates

http://i45.tinypic.com/2m7ubfm.jpg

Battier and co provided spacing for him to work in the paint

https://twitter.com/NBAonESPNRadio/status/216008591197483010


Hahahah wow.. ARE YOU SERIOUS

LeBron led that team to a champsionship, with his improved post play, and his pinpoints passes

LeBron was responsible for 61 points in this game. He is the MVP

Without LeBron the Heat lose to the Pacers

[ObamaFan]

It's play style though, he's not a better shooter than Kobe.

He also has a higher FG% than Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, and Dirk...is he the better shooter?

Teams still rather give him a open jumper, You never see that against Kobe because it'd be like giving him 2 points.


Well what do the stats say, you cant go againist the numbers

[daywalker02]

This doesn't make sense, because one of the stories of this Finals was how well the Heat role players like Battier and Chalmers played, and Mike Miller was the unexpected hero of the last game. LeBron had 13 assists and a bunch were to these guys. That is the essence of team ball, and it is the main thing that makes LeBron so much better than Kobe, who fails to get his teammates involved time and time again.

LeBron left Cleveland because he knew he was never going to win a championship there. The talent was just not good enough, and you need talent to win a title even if you play perfect team ball. What LeBron did was the right move if he was interested in becoming a champion... the way he did it was not, but if that's the worst thing he ever does, he's done pretty well for himself.

Lebron needed guidance..... Gilbert obviously let him run the organization but could not get major supporting stars come to Cleveland .....
That was one helluva circus.....

[clippy]

Hahahah wow.. ARE YOU SERIOUS

LeBron led that team to a champsionship, with his improved post play, and his pinpoints passes

LeBron was responsible for 61 points in this game. He is the MVP

Without LeBron the Heat lose to the Pacers

He is a delusional Kobetard and with Kobe going out in the second round every year these days, he has nothing to do but bash on LeBron. LeBron winning a title and FMVP against the team that just demolished Kobe & the Fakers has to be the worst possible outcome for his season. Give him some sympathy.

[JayGoogle]

Well what do the stats say, you cant go againist the numbers

If you honestly believe that Lebron is a better shooter than Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Dirk...oh and Durant FG% is also lower...than I don't know what else to tell you.

[GreatOne1978]

He is a delusional Kobetard and with Kobe going out in the second round every year these days, he has nothing to do but bash on LeBron. LeBron winning a title and FMVP against the team that just demolished Kobe & the Fakers has to be the worst possible outcome for his season. Give him some sympathy.


LOOOOOL big talk from the worthless clippers fan. WORTHLESS

[clippy]

Hey man, just don't kill yourself, ok? It's only a game.

[GreatOne1978]

Those who lose their case tend to deflect. Loser. Typical clipper fan

[Mr. Space City]

i think we can at least admit that lebron is more accomplished at 27 than kobe at 27

[clippy]

Those who lose their case tend to deflect. Loser. Typical clipper fan

Hey, I get it, you are upset. It's understandable. Just don't do anything crazy!

[gmoney411]

i think we can at least admit that lebron is more accomplished at 27 than kobe at 27

Sure but it's a completely unfair comparison. People don't really like to count the Shaq years towards Kobe's greatness but when he tured 27 he had only played one year with Shaq.

[tosweet68]

Well what do the stats say, you cant go againist the numbers

Based on that.......Nikola Pekovic, Dwight Howard, JaVale McGee, Serge Ibaka and DeJuan Blair were all better shooters than LBJ

[daywalker02]

Sure but it's a completely unfair comparison. People don't really like to count the Shaq years towards Kobe's greatness but when he tured 27 he had only played one year with Shaq.

27?
He won his first 3 at the age of 22-24

[gmoney411]

27?
He won his first 3 at the age of 22-24

I meant without my bad. He was comparing the two at 27 and I was trying to say if you aren't counting Shaq years and rings that one year for Kobe v. 9 for Lebron.

[Mr. Space City]

I meant without my bad. He was comparing the two at 27 and I was trying to say if you aren't counting Shaq years and rings that one year for Kobe v. 9 for Lebron.

but lebron was more dominate for his ring than kobe was with shaq

[gmoney411]

but lebron was more dominate for his ring than kobe was with shaq

Shaq was the most dominant player in basketball back then. You put Lebron on those teams back then and he probably would have deferred to Shaq just as much and even more than Kobe.

[Mr. Space City]

Shaq was the most dominant player in basketball back then. You put Lebron on those teams back then and he probably would have deferred to Shaq just as much and even more than Kobe.

is rebounding numbers would have went down but he still could have averaged 30 ppg (efficiently) with 8+ assist

[daywalker02]

I meant without my bad. He was comparing the two at 27 and I was trying to say if you aren't counting Shaq years and rings that one year for Kobe v. 9 for Lebron.

Easy to say though.....
Both could not win a championship with Mikey Brown ..... that is a fact

[gtb]

In Morey we RUST

[bloodwings19]

Currently Lebron has passed Kobe, but career-wise, not yet. Bron is more of a complete player than Kobe, but if you want someone for the 4th quarter, you take Kobe. Other than that, you would want to trade for Bron over Kobe.

[SwoLy-D]

Surpassed Kobe in what, times whining to the refs he didn't get a foul called? :confused:

[Raven]

The first championship is luck. You have to win a second one to prove you belong in the club.

[got em COACH]

The guy won his first ring and you want to compare him to Kobe?!?! LOL i guess dirk is better than kobe too

[daywalker02]

The first championship is luck. You have to win a second one to prove you belong in the club.

Wade won his second one

[aussiejack]

The first championship is luck.

:rolleyes:

[kevC]

Surpassed Kobe in what, times whining to the refs he didn't get a foul called? :confused:

There's no way anyone can surpass Kobe in that.

[cheke64]

Easy answer, yes.

Has he surpassed Battier?

No.

[bullardfan]

YEP

compare LeBron at 27 to MJ at 27, and Lebron is way ahead( sans the DPOY)

Jordan was 21 when he came into the league. Lebron was 18.
Lebron had a monster season and is a future HOFer but you can't start making the Jordan comparisons until his career is finished.

[bullardfan]

Wade won his second one
Wade rode Lebron's coattails.

[daywalker02]

Wade rode Lebron's coattails.

Some are greater than others

Kobe never faced Lebron in the finals so who knows......

[FullMetal Sage]

I'm not trying to put an asterisk on LeBron's ring, but in a lockout season, and the teams he had to face to get to the Finals has to come up in the conversation. I mean the lowly Knicks, pfft. The Pacers are good defensively, but come on now. The OLD Botson Celtic's. Yeah they were down by a game in the last two series, but it was highly unlikely they loose to either team. I for one thought the Thunder would have won it all, but I did not account for the scrub role players having an huge effect on this series. LeBron had a great playoff run, but Kobe is still ahead of him career wise.

[SeabrookMiglla]

Read this on realcavsfans.com on lebron winning a ring LOL: "Re: 2012 Finals !!
I'm going to let the hate build all night. How's that ****ing elbow doing, you douchebag.

Hopefully, LeBron will find himself torn to shreds and devoured by a pack of derelicts hopped up on bath salts tonight in Miami.

That would be a ****ing WONDEFRUL story to wake up to. And God****ingdammit, I don't want anyone spouting off any of that mature bull**** that we shouldn't be pissed. I was ****ing at the Miracle in Richfield. I drove 450 miles on a Sunday from my duty station in Va. to see Jordan hit the Shot against Ehlo, and then drove the ****ing 450 miles back. I watched us win the lottery to get James, and then I watched that miserable bag of puke shoot one-handed free throws, and then just give up against the Celtics in game 5. I'm ****ing pissed, filled with hate, and **** anyone who doesn't like it.

So go, you ****ing Miami derelicts. Do whatever you do with your bath salts, and devour his still breathing, agonized body.

****er."

[Honey Bear]

I like Kobe a lot because of the 3 superstars (MJ, LBJ, Kobe) he's the one who is most approachable and he always has time for fans but as a b-ball player I think he's just inferior to LBJ. All of Kobe's rings were won with a dominant big by his side (Shaq/Gasol), one of the best coaches of all time (Phil J), AND he has had a pretty good cast of role players over the years (Odom, Ariza, Metta).

What do you guys think?

What the hell? Kobe graced the cover of GQ and had a full 8 page photo spread, grew up in Italy, and all he had was Gasol for 2 championships. Not Wade and Bosh.

And most importantly, he doesn't have an asterisks next to his titles.

Absolutely pathetic post.

[Air Langhi]

What the hell? Kobe graced the cover of GQ and had a full 8 page photo spread, grew up in Italy, and all he had was Gasol for 2 championships. Not Wade and Bosh.

And most importantly, he doesn't have an asterisks next to his titles.

Absolutely pathetic post.


You are forgetting odom. They also had bynum 5he last couple of years.

Everyone was saying OKC would run right through the heat, how the spurs-thunder was the actual final. Now that the king has done it, We have the haters coming out in full force with equally absurd arguments.

[Honey Bear]

You are forgetting odom. They also had bynum 5he last couple of years.

Everyone was saying OKC would run right through the heat, how the spurs-thunder was the actual final. Now that the king has done it, We have the haters coming out in full force with equally absurd arguments.

Done what? He's still a virgin charading as a juggaboo. Everybody gave DRob a golf clap when he won his title, but the standing ovation is reserved for those who win it without an asterisk. And atleast DRob had the dignity not to collude. With an asterisk, all the fairweather fans have something to cheer about and the NBA makes it's money but the guys who understand the blood, sweat and tears of a real NBA season know it doesn't mean much.

Hey, I'd love for LeBron to win with all his talent, but the truth is what it is. He took advantage of an illegitimate situation in a lockout shortened season.

That's not even taking into consideration the reigning MVP went out injured before he could face the Heat, a colluded team, but I'm not a petty guy.

Congrats to Kevin Durant, who is gonna run train on all the legitimate titles to come.

[bumbum09]

Short answer: No... BUT if he keeps playing at this level consistently in the next 3-5 years we (fans of other teams) are all in trouble. I can see him surpassing Kobe's total body of work but I just can't see him passing Jordan's total body of work. Though, some of Jordan's playoff records will probably be broken by James.

[bumbum09]

There's no way anyone can surpass Kobe in that.

Iverson, VC, and Kelin Cato beg to differ...

[eMat]

There was a thread a while back asking whether the champion of this season will have an asterisk to its name and the majority of the posters said that winning this season would be no less impressive than every other year, perhaps more so. I knew it right then that some were qualifying this with an unspoken "unless the Heat win it". :rolleyes:

[Kate81]

LeBron is the greatest basketball player on the planet.

But in terms of legacy, LeBron has not passed Kobe.

[SamFisher]

LeBron is a better player than Kobe was from an efficiency/productivity standpoint.

Championships, which are largely dependent on luck and circumstance, is the only area where Kobe really has an edge.

[Honey Bear]

There was a thread a while back asking whether the champion of this season will have an asterisk to its name and the majority of the posters said that winning this season would be no less impressive than every other year, perhaps more so. I knew it right then that some were qualifying this with an unspoken "unless the Heat win it". :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter what the majority say, the majority are normally uninformed and fairweather.

A lot of the players didn't even want to show up during these playoffs but had to go out there and give 75% due to contractual obligations.

[BigM]

Lebron is fantastic but Kobe is/was just purely lethal. The closest we'll ever get at the wing position to Jordan. Lebron is a bit more well rounded but as a scorer Kobe simply beats him.

Who would you be more scared to face in their prime?

[justinh]

WTF LMAO

[REEKO_HTOWN]

Serious?

[Rocket River]

Give me a moment . . . *gulp*
One more. . . *gulp*
Haterage is good . . . tastie

NOW
Lebron was something like like 56 out of 76 in the paint
7 of 36 outside of it
He went to the free throw line at least 4 times a game

If I posted the same thing about Shaq
People would be bitching about him BULLING his way to the basket
LeBron does the same thing . . .except from the elbow.
He knows he will get the basket or the foul everytime .

I'm not saying he doesnt have a shot
but it is inconsistant and like Shaq
he decided. . . if it ain't broke don't fix it.
As long as games are reffed in such a way
that stepping him front of him is a Flagrant foul
he will win alot of championship


Rocket TIES:
Lebron and Wade are alot better than Francis and Cat
but
the game plan was the basically the same
DRIVE AND DISH
Beat your guy . . get to the rack . . Collapse the defense . . . hit the open 3 pt shooters
[they have better three point shooters as well]
More ball movement than the old rockets
but the concept is the same . . .
[Probably what francis and cat would have looked like under adelman instead of Rudy or JVG]

Rocket River
one more sip . . *gulp*

[TEXNIFICENT]

I think with LBJ now winning his first ring in spectacular fashion and dispelling the "King without a ring" crowd, LBJ has now supplanted Kobe and is now the 2nd best wing player of all time. Sure Kobe has more rings, but LBJ has 3 MVPs to his name, and unlike Kobe LBJ was able to carry a sorry-ass team to the Finals, while Kobe couldn't do anything when he had Shaq traded and spent the season moping around, quitting against the Suns and then asking for a trade in the offseason.

I like Kobe a lot because of the 3 superstars (MJ, LBJ, Kobe) he's the one who is most approachable and he always has time for fans but as a b-ball player I think he's just inferior to LBJ. All of Kobe's rings were won with a dominant big by his side (Shaq/Gasol), one of the best coaches of all time (Phil J), AND he has had a pretty good cast of role players over the years (Odom, Ariza, Metta).

What do you guys think?

I love Lebron's game, but Kobe has done it 5 times man. 5 > 1, so give it time. Its hard to get one, Kobe has 5 so no.

[kevC]

I love Lebron's game, but Kobe has done it 5 times man. 5 > 1, so give it time. Its hard to get one, Kobe has 5 so no.

How are educated people still using this argument? You really don't think Lebron would've won 5 if he was under the exact same circumstances as Kobe in terms of talent around him?

[Rocket River]

How are educated people still using this argument? You really don't think Lebron would've won 5 if he was under the exact same circumstances as Kobe in terms of talent around him?

You can say that about alot of folx though
Iverson
Tmac
DRose
Etc
Etc
Etc

So your argument is just as weak

Rocket River

[t_mac1]

How about Larry Bird? Former coach of the year and current executive of the year. Is he not a good evaluator of talent? You think you are the smart one compared to Bird?

Bird said Lebron is a better player, but chose to play with Kobe b/c he's a "winner." That was during the season.

[TEXNIFICENT]

How are educated people still using this argument? You really don't think Lebron would've won 5 if he was under the exact same circumstances as Kobe in terms of talent around him?

Dude, at the end of the day you circumstances are what they are. You can't start the if scenarios because they are far too subjective. What if Bron played with Shaq? What if Bron played with Pippen? What if Bron played with Kareem and Worthy? What if Bron played Mchale and Parish? What Tracy and Yao never got hurt? After a while it just gets silly. Lebron has had great career but let him earn his place in history as he is more than capable.

[SamFisher]

Who would you be more scared to face in their prime?

LeBron. He's had 3 seasons that were already better than Kobe's best statistical season (the year he took eleventy billion shots post Shaq/pre Gasol and the Lakers sucked). LeBron's all around game is simply better tahn Kobe's pure scoring.

[kevC]

Dude, at the end of the day you circumstances are what they are. You can't start the if scenarios because they are far too subjective. What if Bron played with Shaq? What if Bron played with Pippen? What if Bron played with Kareem and Worthy? What if Bron played Mchale and Parish? What Tracy and Yao never got hurt? After a while it just gets silly. Lebron has had great career but let him earn his place in history as he is more than capable.

That's fair, but I despise the line of logic that "X player will only surpass Y player if he has the same number of championships". That's just dumb. It's a team sport, no one does it alone. I would still believe Jordan to be the greatest player of all-time if he only won one championship and played for a crappy team his entire career.

[LCAhmed]

Let me be the first to say what many Kobe fans have been saying for years. LeBron is NOT the next MJ. He is the FIRST LeBron.

[Mr. Space City]

I love Lebron's game, but Kobe has done it 5 times man. 5 > 1, so give it time. Its hard to get one, Kobe has 5 so no.

so horry > kobe?

7 > 5

[t_mac1]

That's fair, but I despise the line of logic that "X player will only surpass Y player if he has the same number of championships". That's just dumb. It's a team sport, no one does it alone. I would still believe Jordan to be the greatest player of all-time if he only won one championship and played for a crappy team his entire career.

People who judge ONLY by championships is stupid. Russell has 11 rings, but the majority has MJ as the GOAT, and he has 5 LESS.

To become the GOAT or enter the conversation, you have to take into account the "individual" accolades (MVPs, DPOY, all-nba 1st team and defense, how many years considered as the greatest of your generation) AND "team" accolades (championships).

Right now, Lebron has MORE individual accolades than Kobe already, and he still has AT LEAST 4 more years like this left. He has 2 more MVPs (probably will end up with 5 or 6). And he will easily surpass Kobes on all-nbas. And he will win a DPOY. Lebron will BLOW Kobe away in terms of individual accolades when he retires. This is a no-contest.

Now let's talk about rings. Does he need to get 5 or 6 to surpass Kobe's legacy? No. He just needs 2-3. Kobe was the "main" guy in 2 championship runs with 2 FMVPs. If he gets one more FMVP, he will surpass Kobe's legacy. If he gets 3, he'll leave Kobe in the dust.

MJ is the GOAT to most for a reason. It's his combination of his individual work + winning. His 6 MVPs/FMVPs. His DPOY as a perimeter player. His decade-long run as the best player in the league. His never losing in the Finals. And so on. That's why it will be so hard for anyone to surpass MJ b/c his body of work is too decorated.

[TEXNIFICENT]

so horry > kobe?

7 > 5

Are we talking lead dogs or OBVIOUS role players. Seriously. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Space City]

Are we talking lead dogs or OBVIOUS role players. Seriously. :rolleyes:

finals mvp's hold more weight than rings.

lebron doesn't need 4 more rings to surpass kobe.

1 or 2 more and he's over him easily

[Sleepy Flloyd]

Are we talking lead dogs or OBVIOUS role players. Seriously. :rolleyes:

If we talkin lead dogs then Kobe only gots 2. :rolleyes:

[TEXNIFICENT]

finals mvp's hold more weight than rings.

lebron doesn't need 4 more rings to surpass kobe.

1 or 2 more and he's over him easily

So rings don't matter but Finals MVPs do? Gotchya! The only way to get a Finals MVP 99% of the time is to WIN THE TITLE. You're prisoner of the moment. Father Time is undefeated and is whipping Kobe's ass right now. I like Lebron, but to minimize what Kobe has done because Lebron has won once is ridiculous.

[TEXNIFICENT]

If we talkin lead dogs then Kobe only gots 2. :rolleyes:

So how many does Dwayne Wade have?

[WEHTT90s]

What the hell? Kobe graced the cover of GQ and had a full 8 page photo spread, grew up in Italy, and all he had was Gasol for 2 championships. Not Wade and Bosh.

And most importantly, he doesn't have an asterisks next to his titles.

Absolutely pathetic post.His titles in 2002 & 2010 are questionable, and his finals appearance in 2008.

I agree with everyone who said Lebron has been better than Kobe for years. I think Lebron has been since 2007, and it's not just because Lebron went to the finals. As an all-time player, Kobe is better. I don't solely judge on titles. When Lebron has 2 or 3 titles, and depending on the role he plays in them, I'd probably rank him over Kobe as an all-time player. I don't think Kobe is greatest player since Michael Jordan, nor would I put Kobe in the top 10 ever.

The difference with Lebron having Wade & Bosh is that Lebron & Wade are too similar and only seem to benefit each other on the fast break. Bosh isn't as versatile as Pau Gasol. Miami didn't have the physicality nor rebounding on the inside that the Lakers did. They still don't, IMO. Artest could average between 15 to 19 points had he not been a 4th/5th option on the Lakers. The media glossed over how good Artest was prior to joining the Lakers, and how playing behind other all-stars in a new system is why his scoring dropped. Artest remained a great defender while Kobe got the defensive team selections. It was portrayed like Artest was coasting off Phil & Kobe. Bynum was the 3rd best center when Yao was still around. Odom was the most versatile player in recent years next to Lebron James. Vladimir Radmanovic, Trevor Ariza, Matt Barnes & Steve Blake were good on their former teams despite not being stars. At times, Matt Barnes was a 3rd option. Gasol was arguably better than Kobe from 2009-2010. I thought Kobe deserved the finals MVP in 2009, and still do. It became closer after I saw Gasol's shooting percentage and how many shots Kobe took in that series. Gasol averaged as many assists in the 2010 finals despite not dominating the ball as much. Gasol also had tougher match ups in the finals.

Payton & Malone were past their primes, but they had great seasons prior to joining the Lakers. Payton was an all-star the previous season. Malone came off of a season close to his last all star season, averaging 20/7/4.

Kobe had a decent roster the year Shaq was traded. I agree they had a weak roster the 2 years that followed, I used to defend Kobe on that because Shaq had much more help in Miami. Kobe has been on loaded teams for most of his career, especially compared to other great players. He started with a team that were winning 50 or so games. He started with all stars, established role players, players that won titles or made the finals (Shaq, Glen Rice, Ron Harper, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, Derek Harper, AC Green, Brian Shaw). Aside from his individual accomplishments, I rank Michael Jordan so highly because of his first 3 titles. He had a young unproven team aside from 3 role players, Pippen developed into an all-star. Excluding Lamar Odom & Caron Butler, Kobe had OK players around him, they just needed time to develop. I felt the same way about Iverson leaving Philly before giving their young players time to develop.

The credit Lebron is getting is similar to Dirk last year, they always had great playoff numbers, it was either forgotten or glossed over.

No offense to Larry Bird, but I don't give too much credibility to what former/current players and front office guys say. I believe what Larry said, it's just that people these days give popular answers or say what's expected. When they don't do that, the media jumps on it. When Lebron lost in the playoffs, guys like Kenny Smith kept saying Kobe was the best because his team went further. I didn't think Kobe was a top 3 player in the league since 2009. Kobe didn't have to be great for the Lakers to succeed, nor did the offense have to run through him. Lebron, CP3, Dirk and Dwight had to be great for their teams to succeed. I loved listening to Charles Barkley until he proclaimed Kobe a top 5 player ever. Someone already mentioned that players usually are not the best analysts or judges of talent. Some players or guys in the front office will talk yet not put their name to it. Some guys will say things out of modesty or to bandwagon.

[sTeKcOr22]

Not there yet, but he will once he's done easily.

[dsid411]

He's a better player NOW, and has been since 07-08. Career-wise? Let Lebron finish his career first please.

This.

[sTeKcOr22]

Kobe is in the Jordan mold but there is literally nothing he does at the level of Jordan, except maybe slightly better long range shooting. So really he's in the tier with VC, TMac, AI, Allen, etc. He just had great teammates and excellent longevity.

LeBron is different because there has never been a player in the modern era that is like him. He is a player with the size of Karl Malone and the skill of Magic Johnson. When all is said and done, he will be ranked far higher than Kobe (smart fans rank him higher now), simply because he brings a lot more to the table. He doesn't need five rings to rationalize that because rings are a product of the team and the competition at the time.

THIS.

[sTeKcOr22]

You know its a good thing we have you around to tell us who the smart fans are. I'm sure you think plenty of guys that played in the league are idiots because many have often said that they think Kobe is a better player than Lebron. You should really stop trying to sound all knowing and realize that they are two different players and it is debatable who is better. Larry Legend said he would rather play with Kobe just a few months ago.

He makes a very good point.

[jc9495]

No... Lebron is not clutch..
Early in his career he could never hit the last second game winning shot. Then he deferred to teammates in Cleveland to take the last second shot, that too would fail. Now, he just dominates as much as he can to make sure the game doesn't get to that situation. To me, it's not even close. He may be the most athletically gifted player in the history of the game. He's a freak. But me personally, I measure sucess in money time. Kobe is clutch. Everyone knows he's gonig to get the ball with the clock running down and he would sink it. Hel even Tmac in his prime was clutch. Now, is there time for Lebron to be that guy? Sure, but I don't think he has that characteristic.

[trueroxfan]

LBJ has how many rings?

It took him how long to win one?

He needed how many stars?

No, he has not surpassed Kobe.

[KingLeoric]

Sure Kobe has more rings, but LBJ has 3 MVPs to his name, and unlike Kobe LBJ was able to carry a sorry-ass team to the Finals, while Kobe couldn't do anything when he had Shaq traded and spent the season moping around, quitting against the Suns and then asking for a trade in the offseason.


Yes Lebron took a sorry team to the Finals, but he was in the East. He would've never made it to the Finals with that team if he was in the west like Kobe.

[JMAD21]

At 1st I thought "no it's still 5 rings to 1" then when you think that LeBron has 3 MVPs to Kobe's 1, it's really close... I think Ill go with LeBron

[wekko368]

Yes Lebron took a sorry team to the Finals, but he was in the East. He would've never made it to the Finals with that team if he was in the west like Kobe.

Don't underestimate the caliber of that Detroit Pistons team. They were contenders, and Lebron destroyed them.

[TheRealist137]

Kobe won 2 rings without Shaq.

LeBron has won 1 with Wade and Bosh.

[wekko368]

Kobe won 2 rings without Shaq.

LeBron has won 1 with Wade and Bosh.

And Kobe won those 2 rings with Gasol/Bynum/Odom and Ariza/Artest. Stacked teams. So what exactly is your point?

[Pull_Up_3]

Kobes has more rings

/thread

[Ricksmith]

Kobes has more rings

/thread

Robert Horry has more rings

/thread

[KingLeoric]

Don't underestimate the caliber of that Detroit Pistons team. They were contenders, and Lebron destroyed them.

They were only contenders when Larry Brown was the head coach. They have never been back to the finals since.

[SacTown]

Kobes has more rings

/thread

Embarrassing even for you bro. So Robert Horry > Hakeem

[wekko368]

They were only contenders when Larry Brown was the head coach. They have never been back to the finals since.

Absolutely wrong. The 2007 Pistons team had Billups, Hamilton, Prince, and Rasheed Wallace. They won 53 games and had the best record in the Eastern Conference. They were contenders.

[roslolian]

LBJ has how many rings?

It took him how long to win one?

He needed how many stars?

No, he has not surpassed Kobe.

Uh, Kobe won his first 3 rings with Shaq, aka MDE. Bosh and Wade are good players, but right now both of them aren't HOF first ballots like Shaq. The fact is, if LBJ and Kobe switched places and history and it was LBJ instead of Kobe paired with Shaq they would have won rings regardless, and in fact they would have kept on winning till Shaq retired because LBJ doesn't have "I gotta be alpha dog" issues like Kobe.


The "how long" argument is pretty stupid because MJ won his first ring at around age 29 or so, LBJ's actually ahead of schedule.

[KingCheetah]

Lebron needs to rape a blonde girl and get 4 more rings.

[KingLeoric]

Absolutely wrong. The 2007 Pistons team had Billups, Hamilton, Prince, and Rasheed Wallace. They won 53 games and had the best record in the Eastern Conference. They were contenders.

Yea they had pretty much the same core since 2003 and the only two seasons they went to the finals were under Larry Brown. It was Larry Brown who led Billips, Hamilton and Prince to championship and eventually to all-stars. No one hardly knew them before 2004 and where are those players now?

[gmoney411]

Bird said Lebron is a better player, but chose to play with Kobe b/c he's a "winner." That was during the season.

He said Lebron was currently the best player in the league. He was comparing 27 year old Lebron to 33 year old Kobe when he said that. He chose Kobe because of his work ethic/drive/demeanor which he believes will get you more wins.

[ObamaFan]

No... Lebron is not clutch..
Early in his career he could never hit the last second game winning shot. Then he deferred to teammates in Cleveland to take the last second shot, that too would fail. Now, he just dominates as much as he can to make sure the game doesn't get to that situation. To me, it's not even close. He may be the most athletically gifted player in the history of the game. He's a freak. But me personally, I measure sucess in money time. Kobe is clutch. Everyone knows he's gonig to get the ball with the clock running down and he would sink it. Hel even Tmac in his prime was clutch. Now, is there time for Lebron to be that guy? Sure, but I don't think he has that characteristic.


myth created b ESPN, Lebron was always clutch in the postseason with the Cavs

[Bearius Jones]

I am not really a Lebron fan but I really never understood the Kobe love...EVER. He is a selfish chucker who has probably lost more crunch time games then won but since he is in LA nobody wants to remember the "transistion years" when Kobe was the man without Shaq or Pau. Kobe is an all-time great...but he isn't as good as Lebron...my opinion.

I think people should look at this as objectively as possible. All this how many rings talk is nonsense. We should all ask ourselves these questions and seriously answer them.

Replace 27 year old Lebron with 27 years old Kobe on this Heat team. Do the Heat still beat the Thunder? I say no...Kobe is cold blooded but I think he would not help his teammates enough and Sefalosha and Harden would be more effective defenders on him then on James. And no matter how young Kobe is he can't guard Durant. Now put this MVP NBA Champion Lebron on that Lakers team. You can't tell me that team doesn't make the playoffs with a straight face.


Some Kobe Highlights 26-27 years old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GVw0L90PKg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzXJkJ95gXg&feature=related

Some Lebron Highlights 26-27 years old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6LWuq79YaU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQAc1A3pJGw


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html
Kobe 2004-2005: 27.6 Pts, 5.9 Reb, 6.0 Ast, 1.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk, .433 FG%, .339 3P%, .816 FT%, 4.1 TOV

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
Lebron 2011-2012: 27.1 Pts 7.9 Reb 6.2 Ast, 1.9 Stl, 0.8 Blk, .531 FG%, .362 3P%, .771 FT%, 3.4 TOV

Ignore the rings, fame, glamour, rape case, the Decision,...just look at the stats and the games. It's should be clear Lebron is better in all stats besides points and free throw percentage. I honestly don't see why this is even a debate.

[KingLeoric]

myth created b ESPN, Lebron was always clutch in the postseason with the Cavs

He always clutched in the playoffs and choked in the finals until this year.

[gmoney411]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html
Kobe 2004-2005: 27.6 Pts, 5.9 Reb, 6.0 Ast, 1.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk, .433 FG%, .339 3P%, .816 FT%, 4.1 TOV

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
Lebron 2011-2012: 27.1 Pts 7.9 Reb 6.2 Ast, 1.9 Stl, 0.8 Blk, .531 FG%, .362 3P%, .771 FT%, 3.4 TOV

Ignore the rings, fame, glamour, rape case, the Decision,...just look at the stats and the games. It's should be clear Lebron is better in all stats besides points and free throw percentage. I honestly don't see why this is even a debate.

Kobe was also a much better shooter. You can't ignore that Kobe was shooting 6 threes a game while Lebron was only shooting 2 this year and as a result had the best 3 pt % of his career. If you aren't going to concede that Kobe was a better shooter than Lebron then it is pretty pointless to debate the two with you.

[Pull_Up_3]

Robert Horry has more rings

/thread

because LeGay is held to the same standard as Horry :rolleyes:

u are really dumb 4 real

[Mr. Space City]

Replace 27 year old Lebron with 27 years old Kobe on this Heat team. Do the Heat still beat the Thunder? I say no...Kobe is cold blooded but I think he would not help his teammates enough and Sefalosha and Harden would be more effective defenders on him then on James. And no matter how young Kobe is he can't guard Durant. Now put this MVP NBA Champion Lebron on that Lakers team. You can't tell me that team doesn't make the playoffs with a straight face.


not really fair to kobe because they play 2 different positions. it's like saying if you replace kobe with duncan do the spurs still win titles?

but lebron does make a bigger impact on the overall game than kobe imo

[javal_lon]

Everyone saw the real Kobe when Shaq left.... A selfish player with worldly athletic gifts that only made the statisticiansn better at their jobs... Then he wanted out of LA... Then Jerry West sent him a lifeline....

[ObamaFan]

Everyone saw the real Kobe when Shaq left.... A selfish player with worldly athletic gifts that only made the statisticiansn better at their jobs... Then he wanted out of LA... Then Jerry West sent him a lifeline....


Truer words have never been said

[Bearius Jones]

Kobe was also a much better shooter. You can't ignore that Kobe was shooting 6 threes a game while Lebron was only shooting 2 this year and as a result had the best 3 pt % of his career. If you aren't going to concede that Kobe was a better shooter than Lebron then it is pretty pointless to debate the two with you.

I said better stats...not a better shooter. I'll concede Kobe's jumper is better. I didn't want to put up all the stats. And Kobe jacking up 6 threes a game proves he is a chucker with selfish tendencies.

[Bearius Jones]

not really fair to kobe because they play 2 different positions. it's like saying if you replace kobe with duncan do the spurs still win titles?

but lebron does make a bigger impact on the overall game than kobe imo

SG and SF are not THAT different. Duncan is a PF/C who lives in the pivot and on the occasion on the elbow for a jumper. Lebron has been primarily a perimeter player who just started playing more pivot ball. Both Kobe and Lebron both drive to the rack and shoot jumpers. Both had decent assists at the time...difference being Lebron is assisting like a PG by looking for the open man majority of the time...most of Kobe's passing is because he can't score on that possession or is being collapsed on.

But you agree in the end so all is well.

[bullardfan]

SG and SF are not THAT different. Duncan is a PF/C who lives in the pivot and on the occasion on the elbow for a jumper. Lebron has been primarily a perimeter player who just started playing more pivot ball. Both Kobe and Lebron both drive to the rack and shoot jumpers. Both had decent assists at the time...difference being Lebron is assisting like a PG by looking for the open man majority of the time...most of Kobe's passing is because he can't score on that possession or is being collapsed on.

But you agree in the end so all is well.
Bron is a essentially a PF who plays the 3. Much like Dirk is a SF who plays the 4. There are more similarities (style of play) between Dirk n Kobe than LBJ n Kobe.

[gmoney411]

I said better stats...not a better shooter. I'll concede Kobe's jumper is better. I didn't want to put up all the stats. And Kobe jacking up 6 threes a game proves he is a chucker with selfish tendencies.

Well if it is just the stats then you can't really consider Lebron a better passes because him and Kobe had almost identical assist numbers. Who did you honestly want on that Laker team taking all those shots btw?

[Come_Again?!]

We are comparing Kobe's accomplishments to the wake of Lerbon's career. He's is not even close to surpassing what Kobe has done yet.

[gmoney411]

And Kobe jacking up 6 threes a game proves he is a chucker with selfish tendencies.

Also, Lebron has averaged more shot attempts and 3 pt attempts for his career than Kobe has so Lebron must be chucking too.

[Air Langhi]

Bron is a essentially a PF who plays the 3. Much like Dirk is a SF who plays the 4. There are more similarities (style of play) between Dirk n Kobe than LBJ n Kobe.

Lebron was never really a 4 before this post season. He played a lot of point guard with the cavs. That is what makes lebron so incredible. He can play all 5 positions. If chuck hayes plays center I don't see why lebron can't.

When he took that cavs team to the final scoring 25 points in a row I realized he was the best player in the league. I think rings don't matter as that is a team achievement.

Jordan averaged 30-6-4 in 94-95 and his team lost because they didn't have rodman.

[Icehouse]

People need to stop bringing up Karl Malone and Payton as if they were in their prime.

Malone RETIRED the next year and Payton got his ring being a bit player for the Heat and then retired.

They weren't in their primes but they were both 20 ppg scorers the year before and about as good as you can get for a 3rd and 4th option. That team was absolutely stacked.

Malone retired because he got hurt.

[Icehouse]

Are we talking lead dogs or OBVIOUS role players. Seriously. :rolleyes:

If you are talking lead dog then shouldn't your post say 2>1???

[Icehouse]

We are comparing Kobe's accomplishments to the wake of Lerbon's career. He's is not even close to surpassing what Kobe has done yet.

Depends on what accomplishments you deem significant. At the same stage in their careers or age then he has accomplished more than Kobe. Kobe has just played longer. He has already won 2 more MVP's than Kobe, and I would say that's pretty significant.

[Rocket River]

*gulp*

LeBron is just Shaq from the Small Forward Position
He just bulls into the lane and runs over people
The League either gives him the basket or the foul!

He is a better passer and Free Throw Shooter than Shaq, though
*snicker*


Rocket River

[Doctor Robert]

I just have to complement everyone on what an unbiased thread this is.

I mean, the emotion in the Rocket's threads run wild, but dealing with what I believe to be one of the NBA's most colossal douchebags (historically speaking), everyone is presenting incredibly unbiased opinions here.

Bravo to all of you, but I'll just keep my Rocket's colored glasses on and deny, deny, deny. I can't stand the guy, therefore, I can't acknowledge or properly judge his talent. That said, I do feel sorry for him somewhat... living a life where people just follow you around and pump your ego 24/7.

[Bearius Jones]

Also, Lebron has averaged more shot attempts and 3 pt attempts for his career than Kobe has so Lebron must be chucking too.

I am not talking career...I was comparing the two at the same age. And Lebron is averaging over .500 FG% this year so he is allowed to shoot a couple of treys. Kobe 3PA skyrocketed was it was his team. Lebron is taking less 3s each year making better decisions as a shooter.

And you didn't answer the question...replace Kobe with Lebron...would those Lakers make the playoffs that year?

[sugrlndkid]

Magic + Hakeem + Jordan = Lebron...

Sickest combo of talent...and he just figured out how great he can really be....

I get so happy when players turn to Hakeem for help in their game...

[gmoney411]

I am not talking career...I was comparing the two at the same age. And Lebron is averaging over .500 FG% this year so he is allowed to shoot a couple of treys. Kobe 3PA skyrocketed was it was his team. Lebron is taking less 3s each year making better decisions as a shooter.

And you didn't answer the question...replace Kobe with Lebron...would those Lakers make the playoffs that year?

So what you are doing is using Kobe's stats when he had less talent around himself and then comparing them to Lebron when he had more talent around him. Kobe's 3 pt attempts dropped when the team got better and Lebron's 3pt attempts were higher when his team was worse. You are trying to look at those stats in a vacuum. People like to talk about Lebron attacking the basic but in the 04-05 year Kobe was getting to the line 10 times a game compared to Lebron's 8 times this year.

And to answer your question there is a chance they beat out the Grizz for the 8th spot. They would have needed 46 wins in a pretty good western conference which is possible. However, I think Butler, Odom and Lebron is a bit of a redundant lineup so I have my doubts.

[gmoney411]

And you didn't answer the question...replace Kobe with Lebron...would those Lakers make the playoffs that year?

I also forgot to add in that I think the Lakers would have had a real good shot of getting in that year if Kobe didn't get hurt that year and miss 16 games.

[jbasket]

Bron is a essentially a PF who plays the 3. Much like Dirk is a SF who plays the 4. There are more similarities (style of play) between Dirk n Kobe than LBJ n Kobe.

I can assure you, Dirk and Lebron have little similarities if ANY. Come on...

[Icehouse]

So what you are doing is using Kobe's stats when he had less talent around himself and then comparing them to Lebron when he had more talent around him. Kobe's 3 pt attempts dropped when the team got better and Lebron's 3pt attempts were higher when his team was worse. You are trying to look at those stats in a vacuum. People like to talk about Lebron attacking the basic but in the 04-05 year Kobe was getting to the line 10 times a game compared to Lebron's 8 times this year.

And to answer your question there is a chance they beat out the Grizz for the 8th spot. They would have needed 46 wins in a pretty good western conference which is possible. However, I think Butler, Odom and Lebron is a bit of a redundant lineup so I have my doubts.

When has Kobe ever had stats as good as what LeBron dropped this year, regular season or playoffs? He's scored more points on a worse % at that. LeBron just led his team in points, boards, assists, steals and shot 50%. He shot 53% thos season and 50% in the playoffs. He was the team's primary wing defender (didn't have someone else to handle that role for him as Jordan and Kobe did) and guarded positions 1-5. He just grabbed his team 10 boards a night in the playoffs.

Kobe has never had a season or postseason as impactful as the one LeBron just had.

[gmoney411]

When has Kobe ever had stats as good as what LeBron dropped this year, regular season or playoffs? He's scored more points on a worse % at that. LeBron just led his team in points, boards, assists, steals and shot 50%. He shot 53% thos season and 50% in the playoffs. He was the team's primary wing defender (didn't have someone else to handle that role for him as Jordan and Kobe did) and guarded positions 1-5. He just grabbed his team 10 boards a night in the playoffs.

Kobe has never had a season or postseason as impactful as the one LeBron just had.

When did I say Kobe had a year as good as Lebron did this year? You are responding to a conversation where i was arguing against him calling Kobe a chucker. Over the course of their careers Kobe is averaging 25.4 pts on 19 shots while Lebron is averaging 27.6 pts on 20 shots. Both players over the course of their careers took a lot of shots to get their scoring totals. Lebron's career true shooting percentage is 57% for his career while Kobe's is 55% and it has dropped over the last three years when Kobe has clearly been out of his prime.

Lebron had an absolutely dominate season this year and you won't get any argument from me about that.

[daywalker02]

those comparisons are semi laughable.....

Lebron could even play PF for stretches.... he is a Power SF
more overpowering than Artest

Compare him to a SG?

[SamFisher]

When did I say Kobe had a year as good as Lebron did this year? You are responding to a conversation where i was arguing against him calling Kobe a chucker. Over the course of their careers Kobe is averaging 25.4 pts on 19 shots while Lebron is averaging 27.6 pts on 20 shots. Both players over the course of their careers took a lot of shots to get their scoring totals. Lebron's career true shooting percentage is 57% for his career while Kobe's is 55% and it has dropped over the last three years when Kobe has clearly been out of his prime.

Lebron had an absolutely dominate season this year and you won't get any argument from me about that.

LeBron already has 3 seasons that are indisputably better than anything kobe has ever done and a few more that are arguable. The efficiency #s arent even close.

[t_mac1]

LeBron already has 3 seasons that are indisputably better than anything kobe has ever done and a few more that are arguable. The efficiency #s arent even close.

Statistically, Kobe was and will be NEVER close to Lebron. Simple as that.

Kobe reg. season career: 25.4ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg, 45.3%, 1.5spg, 0.5bpg, 23.4PER

Lebron reg. season career: 27.6ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.9apg, 48.3%, 1.7spg, 0.8bpg, 27.2PER

Kobe playoffs career: 25.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 4.7apg, 22.4PER

Lebron playoffs career: 28.5ppg, 8.7rpg, 6.7apg, 27.1PER

Lebron leads in EVERY statistical category but 3pt% and ft%. And you can say Lebron's defense in his career so far is more dominant than any point in Kobe's career. Lebron is simply a better all-around player period.

Now let's compare them to MJ:
MJ reg. season career: 30.1ppg, 6.1rpg, 5.3apg, 2.3spg, 0.8bpg, 27.9 PER
MJ playoffs career: 33.4ppg, 6.4rpg, 5.7apg, 28.6 PER.

What Kobe has over Lebron is rings. And rings account for a lot to many people in terms of a player's legacy, and rightfully so. It's a team game, and rings represent the ultimate greatness every player wants to achieve.

[DaGreatest]

''prisoner of the moment''
'knee jerk thread''
''impulse threader''

slow your frikkin role, ur embarassing urself

[Canadiandude]

''prisoner of the moment''
'knee jerk thread''
''impulse threader''

slow your frikkin role, ur embarassing urself

Lebron has been in the league for 9 great years, man. How is it a knee jerk reaction? This iteration of Lebron, if you've been paying attention, is greater than any season Kobe has had. And the scary thing is, Lebron is getting better.
Losing last year like he did to Mavericks was the best thing that happened to him. It increased and accelerated his growth as a player.

[Canadiandude]

To Lebron's credit, he has taken a team coached by freakin' Mike Brown and Spoelstra to multiple championships.

Kobe didn't sniff a championship without Phil Jackson.

[supdudes]

To Lebron's credit, he has taken a team coached by freakin' Mike Brown and Spoelstra to multiple championships.

Kobe didn't sniff a championship without Phil Jackson.

?? And if you mean the Finals...the East at least before this year has always been more competitive. Remember that LeBron's record vs the West in the finals is still only 6-7.

On the same token, PJ never sniffed a championship w/o a historical SG. I know I'm going against the LeBron/ Heat bandwagon right now and I don't care. People need to put this championship into perspective

[Canadiandude]

?? And if you mean the Finals...the East at least before this year has always been more competitive. Remember that LeBron's record vs the West in the finals is still only 6-7.

On the same token, PJ never sniffed a championship w/o a historical SG. I know I'm going against the LeBron/ Heat bandwagon right now and I don't care. People need to put this championship into perspective


And how many Finals did Jordan without Jackson?

[Keyser Soze]

Statistically, Kobe was and will be NEVER close to Lebron. Simple as that.

Kobe reg. season career: 25.4ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg, 45.3%, 1.5spg, 0.5bpg, 23.4PER

Lebron reg. season career: 27.6ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.9apg, 48.3%, 1.7spg, 0.8bpg, 27.2PER

Kobe playoffs career: 25.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 4.7apg, 22.4PER

Lebron playoffs career: 28.5ppg, 8.7rpg, 6.7apg, 27.1PER

Lebron leads in EVERY statistical category but 3pt% and ft%. And you can say Lebron's defense in his career so far is more dominant than any point in Kobe's career. Lebron is simply a better all-around player period.

Now let's compare them to MJ:
MJ reg. season career: 30.1ppg, 6.1rpg, 5.3apg, 2.3spg, 0.8bpg, 27.9 PER
MJ playoffs career: 33.4ppg, 6.4rpg, 5.7apg, 28.6 PER.

What Kobe has over Lebron is rings. And rings account for a lot to many people in terms of a player's legacy, and rightfully so. It's a team game, and rings represent the ultimate greatness every player wants to achieve.

Ehhh those numbers are a little skewed since Kobe's first couple of seasons were ineffective. Lebron came right out of the gate in his first season.

[supdudes]

If anything I'd discrediting Jackson, whose always been more of a player relations coach than a X and O genius. Goes to show when you match the right talent together and it clicks, a dynasty is born.

Wade is top 25 all time easily, and Bosh is damned good, and both are bound for the HOF. What LeBron is doing is impressive, but nothing new. Good for him for winning, but the next few years will determine his place among the greats, not this one championship

[watashi315]

unlike Kobe LBJ was able to carry a sorry-ass team to the Finals, while Kobe couldn't do anything when he had Shaq traded and spent the season moping around, quitting against the Suns and then asking for a trade in the offseason.

I like Kobe a lot because of the 3 superstars (MJ, LBJ, Kobe) he's the one who is most approachable and he always has time for fans but as a b-ball player I think he's just inferior to LBJ. All of Kobe's rings were won with a dominant big by his side (Shaq/Gasol), one of the best coaches of all time (Phil J), AND he has had a pretty good cast of role players over the years (Odom, Ariza, Metta).

Wow, this quote just show the lack of basketball knowledge you have. Are you kidding me??? LBJ carried a "sorry ass" team to the Finals???? This Heat squad is one of the greatest teams ever assembled. They have three All-Stars, three big time role players in Miller, Battier and Haslem, and potential future All-Stars in Chalmers. This is NOT a sorry ass team in any way. Wade, Bosh and Lebron will likely be future HOF and currently are tops in their positions.

You can argue that LBJ may be better than Kobe but you can't deny the current Heat squad is much stacked compared to the squad Kobe had. The talent alone is just incredible for the Heat. Kobe didn't jump ship when Shaq left like LBJ. He stayed and presevered. Kobe didn't have another superstar guard to share the scoring/defense burden with him when he won his first ring post-Shaq. Yes, Pau was a great player but he was a soft player and had sketchy defense. But the team made up for that and they played incredible team ball with precision passing and team defense.

Don't go there...don't go there. Unless Lebron can win a ring on his own...I don't buy it.

[Canadiandude]

Wow, this quote just show the lack of basketball knowledge you have. Are you kidding me??? LBJ carried a "sorry ass" team to the Finals???? This Heat squad is one of the greatest teams ever assembled. They have three All-Stars, three big time role players in Miller, Battier and Haslem, and potential future All-Stars in Chalmers. This is NOT a sorry ass team in any way. Wade, Bosh and Lebron will likely be future HOF and currently are tops in their positions.

You can argue that LBJ may be better than Kobe but you can't deny the current Heat squad is much stacked compared to the squad Kobe had. The talent alone is just incredible for the Heat. Kobe didn't jump ship when Shaq left like LBJ. He stayed and presevered. Kobe didn't have another superstar guard to share the scoring/defense burden with him when he won his first ring post-Shaq. Yes, Pau was a great player but he was a soft player and had sketchy defense. But the team made up for that and they played incredible team ball with precision passing and team defense.

Don't go there...don't go there. Unless Lebron can win a ring on his own...I don't buy it.
A bit of a revisionist history. After Shaq left, Kobe threatened to leave the team, and BITCHED big time.

[Canadiandude]

Ehhh those numbers are a little skewed since Kobe's first couple of seasons were ineffective. Lebron came right out of the gate in his first season.
Not sure why Lebron being the better player right out of the gate should be discounted, lol.

[t_mac1]

Ehhh those numbers are a little skewed since Kobe's first couple of seasons were ineffective. Lebron came right out of the gate in his first season.

And that should count against Lebron how? Both came straight out of HS, and both were 18.

[watashi315]

A bit of a revisionist history. After Shaq left, Kobe threatened to leave the team, and BITCHED big time.

Did he leave? No. So it's not revisionist history. Did he bitch? Yes. He only did that to force management to improve the team since they have big holes to fill after Shaq left and a bunch of players from the first champ squad retired or got traded away.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

In his prime......yes.

Did you miss the three years of Kobe's prime during which his team didn't win 50 games?

[Canadiandude]

Did he leave? No. So it's not revisionist history. Did he bitch? Yes. He only did that to force management to improve the team since they have big holes to fill after Shaq left and a bunch of players from the first champ squad retired or got traded away.

It's quite a revision when you euphemize threatening to leave and bitching about the lack of talent around him to "staying and persevering."

[James Gabriel]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/shinobi155/nhi.png

[Icehouse]

Ehhh those numbers are a little skewed since Kobe's first couple of seasons were ineffective. Lebron came right out of the gate in his first season.

Kobe's first couple of seasons were ineffective because he wasn't ready to dominate from the jump and LeBron was.

[Big MAK]

Lets not get crazy here... He won 1 title.

[clippy]

Wow, this quote just show the lack of basketball knowledge you have. Are you kidding me??? LBJ carried a "sorry ass" team to the Finals???? This Heat squad is one of the greatest teams ever assembled.

He's talking about the '07 Cavs who didn't have any business being in the playoffs, much less the Finals. LeBron has done more with less than any player in the history of the NBA. After he left Cleveland, that team was one of the worst teams in NBA history.

[SacTown]

He's talking about the '07 Cavs who didn't have any business being in the playoffs, much less the Finals. LeBron has done more with less than any player in the history of the NBA. After he left Cleveland, that team was one of the worst teams in NBA history.

This. Truth.

[gmoney411]

Kobe's first couple of seasons were ineffective because he wasn't ready to dominate from the jump and LeBron was.

Eddie Jones played a part in Kobe not getting the chance to dominate from the start. Lebron was thrown onto a terrible team where his development was more important than winning.

[Icehouse]

Eddie Jones played a part in Kobe not getting the chance to dominate from the start. Lebron was thrown onto a terrible team where his development was more important than winning.

Kobe not being ready to dominate had more to do with it. If he were capable of doing what Bron did early on he woulda got more burn. But he didnt have a tank body to allow that.

[watashi315]

He's talking about the '07 Cavs who didn't have any business being in the playoffs, much less the Finals. LeBron has done more with less than any player in the history of the NBA. After he left Cleveland, that team was one of the worst teams in NBA history.

I nominate Iverson with that award. One of the worst teams in NBA history is a gross exaggeration. They were bad, yes. But they were no where near last season's Bobcats level or Washington Wizards in the last few seasons.