How can you be religious?

[dylan]

This is it. I just don't understand anymore. How can anyone on this planet have faith in an omnipotent being? God, or Allah controls everything, right? He has a master plan for everything right? Nothing is too powerful for him right?

THEN WHAT SICK DIETY WOULD KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE?

What God would allow this to happen? How can the death of children, rescue workers, innocent people be part of some greater act?

I just don't understand anymore. I can not give praise and allegiance to such an awful being. You lost me on this one God. If you're out there, I don't like you very much.

[RocksMillenium]

God gave people free will. It's amazing, if good things happen people thank themselves and others, but when bad things happen instead of blaming themselves for it, they blame god.

[Space Ghost]

I just don't understand this "Why does God let bad things happen"

This is a very selfish statement. Granted, nobody wanted this to happened, but where do you cross the line? I think we all expect God to be "Perfect" and "Almighty" all the time.

Yes, He is, but if used these, then none of us would have troubles. We would all have everything we want. Nobody would die. Nobody would get sick. We would not be miserable.

As RM said, its all about free will. With out it, it would be pointless to live.

[Achebe]

The ollllllld problem of evil.

[A-Train]

Ya know, I had this long spiel about believing in God and repenting your sins, but it seems that you're too far gone for that...Just remember two things...

you are mortal
you will die

When Joe Black does come knocking on your door, just make sure you know where you're going...

[Live]

Now I know everyone's very emotional, but realize that insanity and desperation caused this incident.

God could never be involved in nor should be linked to tragedies such as this.

My only hope is that all of his children who were murdered yesterday have moved on to a better place.

[DaDakota]

Actually, this is completely a religious attack.

The people in the middle east have been fighting for centuries over religion.

They are simply brats who are arguing about nothing.

More people have died in the name of God then any other cause.

Personally, I am a christian, and I believe that God lets us choose how to act, and we as a race are still to immature to realize that we need to work together, and that essentially we are all the same.

Hatred begats hatred, and right now, a lot of that is going around.

It is time to act, and to take out any government that is harboring Terrorists, simply put we have the power, USE IT !!

DaDakota

[R0ckets03]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dylan
[B]

THEN WHAT SICK DIETY WOULD KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE?

None that I can think of. But it is not God that killed these people. Some demented people killed the innocent people. They do all of these mass killings in the name of Islam, when in fact "Islam" means "peace".

People like Osama and his followers are just some twisted ****s who the US now needs to get rid of. One should not stop believing in God because of horrible actions taken by a few human beings.

[SpaceCity]

Religion. Organized, man-made religion. Another waste of human life in the name of someone's God. If I am not mistaken, there have been more deaths because of religion than any other reasons combined.

This is the ultimate hate crime. This transcends race.

Truly sad.

[Relativist]

DaDakota, I hope you look back on your posts differently someday when the anger subsides. You've been to other countries. I hope you can learn to see things from a non-Americentric view. Just remember this: Oklahoma City was the work of an American, even though everyone thought to the contrary. No one's entitled to tell you how to think and feel, and everyone has biases, but try to think about them before you go jumping to conclusions. You should NEVER lump any group of people or entities together as hard as it can be not to.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by RocksMillenium
It's amazing, if good things happen people thank themselves and others, but when bad things happen instead of blaming themselves for it, they blame god.

Yeah, I remember all those athletes blaming God for tripping them up behind the line of scrimmage or making them miss that free throw. :rolleyes:

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by Rocketman95


Yeah, I remember all those athletes blaming God for tripping them up behind the line of scrimmage or making them miss that free throw. :rolleyes:

What exactly is your point? That a few people haven't blamed God when something bad happens to them?

[A-Train]

Originally posted by Rocketman95


Yeah, I remember all those athletes blaming God for tripping them up behind the line of scrimmage or making them miss that free throw. :rolleyes:

Hmmm...I wonder who Nick Anderson blamed...

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic


What exactly is your point? That a few people haven't blamed God when something bad happens to them?

No, my point is that you always hear people thanking God when stuff like this happens. Yesterday, nearly every survivor that was interviewed thanked God. However, I didn't hear one single person blame God for letting this act happen.

RM post is typical Christian inferiority complex or paranoia. The fact of the matter is that most people thank God for good stuff and blame man for bad stuff, but when one person questions a loving God after a horrific tragedy like this, they jump all over them.

[JAG]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Actually, this is completely a religious attack.

The people in the middle east have been fighting for centuries over religion.

They are simply brats who are arguing about nothing.

You know, that's the kind of arrogant, ignorant completely misinformed statement that gives us the reputation around the world that we have...

More people have died in the name of God then any other cause.


Good God, no! Not even close...Granted, I'm only a graduate student in History and Classics, but while Religion has often been cited as a justification for territorial acquisition, any study of history shows that Religion as a cause for war was rarely the sole cause, and often not even a consideration. The primary reasons for war have been territorial acquisition, local famine, and inter-power disputation ( ie, disagreement between ruling powers over issues such as succession, border raids, etc..)

Let's examine this past century, which has killed more people in war than any number of other centuries combined...Which of the Great Wars was over religion? Was the Korean War about God? Viet Nam? The Japo-Russian war? Ok, let's look at the 19th century...Well, the Napoleonic Wars...no...er...the Prussian expansion wars? The various Wars of succession MIGHT be able to maintain a connection with religion, but mostly that was merely ONE of the divisions between various factions fighting for power. Going further back, the Romans killed countless numbers, yet had little care for who worshiped what deity...The Mongol invasion, the Huns, the Goths, the Vikings, the various "barbarian" mass invasions which lead to and characterized the Middle Ages couldn't have cared less about religious differences at the time of their conquest, and often adopted the religiuos practices of those thet conquered afterwards...

Ok, let's look at those most cited with regards to Religion...

The Crusades...While Urban's call to Crusade was religious in nature, the Crusades were mostly about booty and conquest. For example, several Crusades got a little sidetracked on their way to save the Holy Land, and ended up conquering such places as Sicily ( already Christian ) Cyprus ( same) regions of the Balkans and East-Central Europe ( already Christian ) and the best example was the Crusade which responded to the call of the Byzantine Church to help free the Holy Land...On the way to Jerusalem, this particular crusade stopped off at Constantinople to check in and re-supply, got a glimpse of the wealth therein, and decided to conquer ( Very, very Christian) Constantinople instead, and go home with the loot rather than continue on to the Holy Land...


The Thirty Years War...While I could make an argument about Gustavus Adolphus and others using religious rhetoric as an excuse to expand their own power, for the sake of brevity I'll just give you this one...

The Colonialist Expansions throughout Africa, Asia, and the Americas...Again, while " bringing them God " was often one of the rallying cries, it was almost never the cause, which was ALMOST without exception about resource and territorial acquisition...Read Cortez' history, or the journals of Dr. Livingston on the subject...

While SOME wars have, possibly, been about religion, the vast vast majority have been about land and power...The Dynastic wars in China have killed millions...The Feudal disputes between the Clans in Japan...The Hundred Years War was almost always about border resolution and succession...the various wars of expansion by Peter, Catherine, Freerick, Alexander ( all the Great)...The American Civil War...The English Civil Wars...The Wars of the Roses...The Spanish Civil War...Louis XIV's wars of French Expansion...The Moghul Expansion...The Rise of Islam did, I concede, bring opposing religious forces into conflict, but the truth is almost all the regions this involved had been at war before Mohammed was even born...


DaDakota

[Band Geek Mobster]

Originally posted by RocksMillenium
God gave people free will. It's amazing, if good things happen people thank themselves and others, but when bad things happen instead of blaming themselves for it, they blame god.

I don't know what planet you're from, but I ALWAYS hear people thank God for good things and hardly ever blame him when something bad happens.

[WHAM!]

Dylan and concerned others,

I am a Christian so I will do my best to explain to you how my faith would lead me to understand the tragic events of yesterday and tragic events in general. God created man and in the beginning the world was perfect and there was no sin. But God also gave man free will and the ability to make choices. When Adam and Eve were tempted and sinned and after that the world was not perfect anymore and all people became sinners. Now, to the best of my understanding from what I've read especially in Paul's letters, God's ultimate plan is to show us how much he loves us, how merciful he is, and how beautiful his grace is. Now, anything that sins will die. But, God loves his children and desires for them to have life so he sent his Son, Jesus down to earth in human flesh to teach us about God's love and also to ultimately take the punishment for our sins for us and allow us a way to have everlasting life by receiving Jesus as our saviour. Without Jesus, we would not only die in the flesh, but in the spirit also. Accepting Jesus as your saviour, cleanses you of your sins in God's eyes and makes you pure to him such that you might have everlasting life with him after you die. (Your flesh body however will die because it has sinned, the sins of your spirit/soul are forgiven by accepting Jesus as your saviour and thus allows for everlasting life in the Kingdom of God) Now, it is imortant to realize that God does not make bad things happen. Satan makes bad things happen. Satan tempts us into sin, churns hate and anger, and bad things. Satan cannot do anything that God does not allow him to do, BUT that does not mean that God makes bad things happen, or that he wants bad things to happen, or that he condones bad things happening. Satan is the one to turn away from, not God. Now, alot of people are inclined to ask why God would allow Satan to do bad things. This is a hard question. There are several answers and theories about this question including my own. I came to my understanding through Paul's letters. Keep in mind that we are all sinners and that really we don't deserve anything at all. NOTHING. We lust, hate, kill, deceive, etc. all the time, every day, each one of us sins in some way. You are alive today because of God's grace. He sent his only Son to die for you so that you could have everlasting life by believing in Him. God is like a Father to us. Just as your father punished you or was hard on you sometimes in order to teach you a lesson, sometimes God has lessons for us to learn also. We might not always understand his lessons, we might not know why people have to die, but Christians have faith that God's ultimate plan is good and for our benefit. A part of the Bible that I think was somewhere in Paul's letters that really strikes me is that God wants to show us how much he loves us and how merciful he is. I think this explains alot. I have no idea how merciful or loving God is, all I know is that it's greater than my imagination then that is something that I am head over heels in love with. Maybe bad things happen for our benefit. Maybe they happen so that people will open their eyes to the grace and mercy of God. I don't know where all the people who have lost their lives in tragedies have gone to, but I do believe that God's love and mercy is much greater than I could ever understand and I trust Him and his ways. I wouldn't want to be without Him, that's a pretty scary place to be. I am happy knowing that a much better place awaits me after I shed this body. God's ultimate plan is to destroy evil once and for all in His time. (McDowell 166, Answers to Tough Questions) I know it is hard for some people to understand and I am just a regular guy and probably don't have all the tools needed to answer all your questions. But, I have tried the best that I can and I hope that it helps in some way. I found a book at a Barnes and Noble bookstore (I'm sure you could find it other places too), called Answers to Tough Questions skeptics ask about the Christian faith by Josh McDowel and Don Stewart. If your interested or curious you could go to a bookstore and just look through it and see if it helps in any way. It's a really small book, fits in the pocket. Also, taking a look at Paul's letters and the Gospels can provide alot of insight and answers to lots of questions. And then of course I'm sure any clergy would be more than happy to talk to you if you wanted to ask them questions. Christians don't understand alot of things about God too. But, we have the facts of the Bible and we have faith in our saviour Jesus Christ, and we believe that God's love for us is more great than anything we could possible imagine. I'll leave you with one last quote: "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8, 9, NASB)

May God's grace find it's way into your hearts.:)

[HayesStreet]

Originally posted by A-Train


When Joe Black does come knocking on your door, just make sure you know where you're going...

Hmmm....to sit through a bad Brad Pitt movie with my wife? An extremely loooongggg Brad Pitt movie with my wife?

[moestavern19]

The harsh truth of the matter is that God gave us a free will , He didnt tell those people to get on a plane that was going to crash .

Most people blame God for things like this , Why? Becasue he didnt stop it? Think about that 4th plane! What if it crashed right into the Sears Tower or The White House! You think It just crashed into a field in Pennslyvania with no one around by Accident? Did God take it down? Did the US? Was it Pilot Error?? Faith is meant to be shaken , Like everyone in this country was 24 hours ago . The whole purpose of Faith is not seeing and believing , If you dont have God who else are you going to turn to? At My Chruch last night it was overflowing with thousands of people praying to God that their families and all the families in the Country were safe! This isn't a time to be religious , This is a time to get down on your knees and pray to God .

[RocksMillenium]

n

[RocksMillenium]

Originally posted by Band Geek Mobster:
<b>I don't know what planet you're from, but I ALWAYS hear people thank God for good things and hardly ever blame him when something bad happens.</b>

Sorry Geek I'm from the planet Earth, and IT WAS FIGURE OF SPEECH. I didn't literally mean everybody, but I've ran into people who think the way dylan thinks, and I can kind of understand because things like this are horrible. If everybody always thanked god we wouldn't have so many people who don't believe in god, and if everybody always thanked god dylan wouldn't be posting what he posted, and I SERIOUSLY doubt he is a lone voice. But I come from earth, and everybody doesn't do the same thing.

[RocksMillenium]

Originally posted by Rocketman95:
<b>RM post is typical Christian inferiority complex or paranoia. The fact of the matter is that most people thank God for good stuff and blame man for bad stuff, but when one person questions a loving God after a horrific tragedy like this, they jump all over them.</b>

Man Rocketman95 I can't believe you just made a blanket statement about an entire religion. Don't blame Christians, blame me because it was my opinion. To go out and blame an entire religion is absolutely a joke. I can tell you that, although most people thanked god even though they lost loved ones, a lot of them thought he abandoned them. I don't judge them, I just gave my opinion. You don't even know if I'm Christian or not so before you rip all Christians find out. Just lay the blame on me and my opinion.

[3fingeredgus]

I've had a lot of thoughts on this matter in the last few months. My Mother died in April (at the age of 48) from brain cancer. I've felt so robbed and cheated about all this and I've been pretty angry. My brother and Father both are devout Christians and they seemed satisfied w/ saying that it was God's will that she left us and at least she is no longer in pain. I'm sorry, but I still can't buy that it would be God's will to take away her pain at that point because if that is true, than was it God's will to rape my family for the last 6 years by slowly killing my Mother and was it also his will to rob me of the opportunity to share the rest of my life with her? I'm only 26 so she never had the opportunity to see me get married or have children. Those events just aren't going to be the same in the future because she won't be around.

My personal thoughts on the whole religion matter is that there is a higher power or God (if you will), but I don't think this being takes an active hand in things. I don't believe in miracles. I certainly don't mean to offend anywhere here, but these are my beliefs. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that God is responsible for the tragic accidents and I don't think he is responsible for the lives that were saved. Maybe this is a bleak outlook, but it seems that if God wanted to save those lives, he would have done so before they crashed into the buildings.

[MattsayzIstillbelieve!!!]

OK I'm gonna wade into this mess now. I was raised Episcopalion which is really church of England which Henry 8 made to divorce wife #1. I'm personally agnostic which simply means I'm choosing no sides when it comes to religon. I will never denegrate those who have real faith and actually appreciate them if they indeed follow their faith and basically do good unto all others. I think religon often gets in the way of faith though sometimes it can foster it a be for the good. Organized religon has often though done more harm then good and hypocritically supported very evil acts. Again not all religon and I'm not choosing one over another. I personally can often feel quite spiritual when I'm in a place of great beauty but I don't feel that I'm big enough or connected into the universe enough to understand these feelings. So I'm philisophically agnostic which means I claim no religon over any other because i just don't know what it all means and I'm not currently willing to accept what I think of as mans explanations (Bible Koran and such) I think that Stephen Hawkings and other theoretical physicist like him are at least approaching this from a way I can better hope to understand. But when I'm on top of a big mountain looking around I can say i feel something. So my suggestion to you all is to follow the ten commandments just because its a way to be as humans and keep looking around and always question everything some religous figure tells you if it isn't something you know is right within you. And never denegrate a person for having a differing faith but only if they are complete a$$holes.

[vj23k]

Originally posted by R0ckets03
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dylan
[B]



None that I can think of. But it is not God that killed these people. Some demented people killed the innocent people. They do all of these mass killings in the name of Islam, when in fact "Islam" means "peace".

People like Osama and his followers are just some twisted ****s who the US now needs to get rid of. One should not stop believing in God because of horrible actions taken by a few human beings.

Great Point.

Islam, the religion, does nothing to promote this kind of wrong doing.

Some of its followers just happen to be crazy.

[ROXRAN]

I would like to commend moestavern19 and RocksMillenium for their great comments and contributions.

Rocketman 95, I hope GOD will find and purge the evil and void within you. In fact why don't you come over to my house. I'll show you my guns and take you to church.

[haven]

I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism for the most part.

But when these events took place, I felt myself reaching out for something. I'm not sure if anything replied or not. I felt calmer, but then... prayer is a great method of meditation.

I'm definitely not a Christian... but I am spiritual.

Many have written extensively on the problem of evil and theism. Some of it has even been persuasive.

Arthur Peacocke, CS Lewis, and St. Augustine all make good points on the subject from a religious perspective.

It seems few great atheist/agnostic thinkers lost faith due to the problem of evil, but I do remember one statement, as many do:

"I refuse the ticket to Paradise" (may be paraphrased slightly). Ivan decides that if even one child's suffering is necessary to God's eternal plan, or allowed... then it's a farce.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by ROXRAN


Rocketman 95, I hope GOD will find and purge the evil and void within you. In fact why don't you come over to my house. I'll show you my guns and take you to church.

Wow.

[outlaw]

Originally posted by ROXRAN

Rocketman 95, I hope GOD will find and purge the evil and void within you. In fact why don't you come over to my house. I'll show you my guns and take you to church.

Sounds like a fun time. Can i come over too?

I won't believe in heaven and hell,
No saints, no sinners, no Devil as well,
No pearly gates, no thorny crowns,
You're always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And it's the same the whold world 'round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
That the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,
Is just somebody's unholy hoax,
And if you're up there you'll perceive,
That my heart's here upon my sleeve.
If there's one thing I don't believe in...

It's you,
Dear God. - XTC

[moestavern19]

After a fine dinner of Eggplant of course ;)

[ROXRAN]

o.k. outlaw, but only if you're willing to experiment and try new things with squirrels.

[Rocketman95]

I'm still trying to figure out which void I need filling. And how some *****in guy who feels the need to carry a gun to make up for some other inadequacies would even know what they are.

:confused:

[outlaw]

i prefer gerbils

[ZRB]

This is one of the many reasons I am a complete athiest. I am against modern organized religion, although it does help some people get through situations like this.

I know exactly what you are saying, Dylan, but you shouldn't bother. This is one of the most religious countries in the world, and that isn't going to change for a while.

[DVauthrin]

First off, ill admit im a devout Christian

However, i tend to disagree with RM that people blame bad stuff on God, and dont mention him in good deeds they do. It seems to me its more along BGM's view: I cant tell you howmany athletes in particular, say they couldnt have done something without the Lord.

As for why I believe in Jesus and Christianity, about 5-6 yrs ago when i was younger i had a dentist appointment, where i was informed i basically had a 99% chance of having a root canal-and i knew how much fun that would be :( . Thus, I went home and prayed for my tooth to heal without having the root canal. Now 1st off, let me say i dont believe you have to go to Church every sunday to be considered a Christian and I realize some Christians out there may consider this story I tell to be offensive in that I may come across as selfish, I really am not. Anyways, a few days after I prayed I felt no pain in the tooth and from then on I went from a believer because of my upbringing to a believer because I felt I had experienced a renaissance. To this day, I am actively involved in a Christian organization, Young Life, and I try my best to lead my life for the Lord and I do believe it has helped me mature a lot, and overcome many of my biggest problems in life.

[outlaw]

wow. did you call Ripley's Believe It Or Not? God heals cavity!

[DVauthrin]

nope, i dont have any needs to publicize it, it was weird though

[outlaw]

why would god care about your dental problems but let what happened yesterday happen?

[Achebe]

I'm still trying to figure out which void I need filling. And how some *****in guy who feels the need to carry a gun to make up for some other inadequacies would even know what they are.

LOL!

i prefer gerbils

ROTFLMAO!

wow. did you call Ripley's Believe It Or Not? God heals cavity!

Still ROTFLMAO!

o.k. outlaw, but only if you're willing to experiment and try new things with squirrels.

I thought that was outlaw's line...

[Rocketability]

I'm not trying to argue on the "Why bad things happen despite the existence of God?" issue, because something real bad did happen, and there is indeed a God.

So bad things do happen. I'm not trying to add oil to the fire, but the Bible says it very clearly that there will be disasters in the end of days. We are right here in the end of the days. So I would assume yesterday's incident was one of them (Yes. ONE of THEM. If you believe what the Bible says).

God is the final victor, but the world as of now still belongs to the evil power. God could have been involved and made the situation better ...... but because He is God, we mere humans just can't understand His act.

RM, I agree with you wholeheartedly. People give thanks to themselves when good things happen, and blame God when bad things do.

Sorry guys! If I did add oil to the fire. :(

Tell you the truth, I have a cousin (and his family) and a very close friend who work on the 40th and 101st floors of the WTC, respectively. I haven't been able to contact them. I know they go to work early in the morning. :(

[DVauthrin]

outlaw, thats a question i cant definitively answer andi apologize for it

but this is according to scripture which i believe

god created us all with our own ability to choose between right and wrong, once adam and eve messed up, we were forever doomed to a life of sin as punishment

However, God is a very forgiving person and wants his "children" to love him and be with him forever, thus he sent Jesus, his only son down to die for our sins.

What im getting at is I dont think God makes decisions for us, but once you acknowledge your sins and let him enter your life forever, he helps you out in ways unimaginable. However, I believe whomever did this did not have the "Connection' to God, and thus was basically going on his own belief of right and wrong and subconscious thoughts.

Also as sad as this may sound, sometimes events like these which are the most extreme, are used to get people to really come together and think

Please dont mistake me for saying that you are awful if you dont believe in the Lord, because I dont think that way, and no ill never be positive how my tooth was healed, but nevertheless I do believe in him, but at the same time realize he gave everyone a free will to make their own choices and doesnt enter ones soul until he or she wants him to, thus people still ultimately control their own actions.

Overall, honestly I think that while believing in the Lord has the ability to get people to lead better lives, even Christians, including myself and many on this board, still have the ability to control our actions as God just tries to push us to live for the common good not manipulate our actions.

P.S. : I do not condone what has happened in any way but I do not think 'God" just watched as his "children" were being harmed, I think it comes back to the idea that one whom hasnt accepted him into his or her life doesnt receive his loving and tender care and support, at least thats the way i see the Bible: Its almost like he wants to help, but cant because the person is blocking his entrance

[outlaw]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
P.S. : I do not condone what has happened in any way but I do not think 'God" just watched as his "children" were being harmed, I think it comes back to the idea that one whom hasnt accepted him into his or her life doesnt receive his loving and tender care and support, at least thats the way i see the Bible: Its almost like he wants to help, but cant because the person is blocking his entrance

it sounds like you're saying god only helps those who believe in him. so those who died yesterday didn't have enough faith for him to help them?

[DVauthrin]

like i said i cant definitively answer, why this happened and why wasnt it prevented, thats an answer well never truly know, unfortunately.

2nd, Im definitely not saying all these people died because they didnt believe, its not true. Ultimately i do believe these people will be saved, just in a spiritual sense not a physical sense.

Also let me say, I really dont understand the full ramifications of Gods work, i just go by the scripture as best as I can. Also, I dont believe the Lord manipulates our actions, he just tries to guide us in the right direction and unfortunately Bin Laden or whomever did this was in a mind of his own i believe. Even as a Christian, while I try hard to glorify the Lord, I realize I am not perfect and sin still to this day :(.

Overall, I think that God loves everyone and the victims of this whole tragedy will be saved, just in the spiritual sense not the physical sense and that those who believe in some form of God, aren't exempt from suffering and making mistakes as his goal is to help us make decisions not manipulate our every move

[moestavern19]

Why would God care about a Cavity and Not what happened yesterday? Thats the most ignorant remark Ive ever heard! God isn't a hospital , he doesn't tell people "I won't heal your teeth because I have to much work to do on other people." How could God have let this happen? You wouldn't be asking that question if you knew how many small mircales he does each day and the precious few that recognize and thank Him for it . WHo knows how many times God stopped Terrorist attacks and nobody even knew what might have happened to them .

[Achebe]

WHo knows how many times God stopped Terrorist attacks and nobody even knew what might have happened to them.

So GOD does care? What about that random aside about 'free will' (as if I've ever understood that defense of a 'benevolent' God anyway)? Is GOD just too overworked to handle it all?

Man, this religion thing is harder to understand than I thought.

[Rocketability]

FIRE ME!

... but can we please not try to understand GOD? If He can be understood and analyzed, who is He?

Most of the time we will understand the reasons better some years AFTER the events ... sometimes we just never can understand ...

You might think it is passive ... but do what we can, and leave the rest to Him. That's the best we can do.

If you believe in Him ...

Peace.

[Raven Lunatic]

I don't understand many of these debates. It seems to me that the arguments traditionally break down into this:

Why does God not help the people?
God gave man free will.
So what does praying do?
God can and does answer prayers.
So why answer some prayers and not others?
God has a plan.
How could a travesty such as this be in his plan?
We are mortals, and by definition we cannot understand immortal God's plan.

Atheists call it a cop-out, believers call it faith. Neither side <b>EVER</b> convinces the other of anything, and generally it creates bad blood between people. Do you all seriously feel the need to try to debunk these people's source of solace and calm at a time like this?

[ScreamingRocketJet]

I am a Buddhist...

Find out something about it if you want to learn...there's some great reading around.

Buddhism believes that we are the ultimate controllers of our destiny...reaching Nirvana is up to us and how WE behave...not just believing in a god etc...

That's too simple an explanantion...:)

One thing I will say...no one has ever been killed in the name of Buddhism. :)

[subtomic]

Free will??? What a joke - free will is an illusion we trick ourselves into believing so that we won't go insane. The fact of the matter is, we have very, very little control over the most important aspects in our life.

We have no say in where we are born.

We have no say in when we are born.

We have no say in who will be our parents.

There were children on those plane. I don't think they chose to go on one of those flights. Nor were they experienced enough to comprehend the dangers that came with flying on an airplane. More than likely, their parents were in control of their destiny. At what point did free will enter the equation???

And furthermore, most of our behavior is biological, not based on free will. We don't eat because we decide to be hungry, or sleep because we decide to be tired, or get a woody because we decide to be horny - we do these things because our body tells us to. How does someone born into poverty or in a third-world countrywill themselves to suffer hunger, disease, pain?

If God only intended us to suffer based on our free choices, then he/she's be slipping up since the dawn of time.

[ScreamingRocketJet]

Subtonic...I have spent a fair amount of time in 'third world' countries...and I can easily say I have seen a million more smiles than I have ever seen in some of the worlds most 'succesful' cities...

A lot of life is attitude...being happy with what you have...not being upset with what you don't have...

This thread's hard at an emotional time like this...

[RichRocket]

subatomic: most of your refutations about our free will are issues that are decided before we are conceived so they cannot possibly be a result of OUR free will (parents, birth place, DOB etc).

Our existence is not entirely one hinged on free will; we do have a biological life as you so well pointed out. However, free will is MUCH MORE than choosing whether or not to supersize our fast food lunch or resisting our parent's insistance that we board a plane.

The free will being cited here pertains to spiritual matters. Osama Bin Laden has irrefutably TURNED AWAY FROM GOD. He exercises his free will thusly and look at the result.

It is most despicable for evil to masquerade as spiritual or religious. Look how many here condemn religious people because of what some "seemingly" religious people have perpetrated.

Why would you ironically take "instruction" from the evil-doers?

Godly people (whether Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, or Hare Krishna) don't do these kind of things, yet those who do DO these kinds of things while claiming divine right not only accomplish the physical destruction they also plunder people's faith and contribute to turning their free will AWAY from God.

Just because they claim it doesn't make it so! Think for yourself and turn to your own spiritual resources. God grants prayer requests in HIS WAY not yours. That is the mystery, but it is very clear that people of faith respond to these kinds of tragedies better than those without faith or with weakened faith.

[Rudyball]

If I would have been able to switch places with any one of those lost in this trajedy I could have exhibited no greater love for them.

" For GOD so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Once you really figure this out, then you begin to understand all the other commands ...

Do unto others ...
Love your enemies ...
Pray for those who spitefully use you ...


If you believe that this is a created world, and not chance-happened, then this verse says the one who actually created it all gave up his own life through his Son to save all from perishing.

When you figure out the depth of the perish, the evil that befalls us here pails in comparison.


There is no greater love than GOD has given, but it was at the highest cost to him. He gave it of his own free will, laid his life down for us.

This is his life-everlasting gift to us in a sense, and to receive it you must only believe and follow after him because of the preciousness of the gift. Who shouldn't want to follow after life, anyway. From GOD's perspective, if I may, it is a life or death decision. Who in their right mind would choose death over life.

Apparently free will produced/produces many who would.

it is a choice, CHOOSE LIFE !

:)

[Live]

I know that this may sound insensitive, so forgive me if I hurt or offend anyone. I truly don't intend to.

Whenever WE are faced with such a tragedy, and thoughts of God, I think we must also ask ourselves, how do we view death.

I like to think of death as a part of the evolution of the "soul", "life-force", "consciousness", etc. that exists in all of us. And though it pains me, as it surely does us all, when a friend, loved one, peer, or fellow citizen dies a mortal death, I am comforted with the belief that they have evolved to some unimaginable, indescribable spiritual plane created and occupied by The Creator. I am sad that they will no longer be with me, but I am happy that their pain is gone and that they will no longer be held by the limitations of the mortal world.

Of course, these are my beliefs.

Feel free to agree or disagree.

[FranchiseCat]

MattsayzIstillbelieve!!!:

Well said. Organized religion is the ultimate form of oppression. A prison in which your mind and spirit can never escape.

[Sonny]

If you stepback and look at this situation, the real question should be "how can you not be religious?"

If someone or something like this can be so evil, then there must be something that is the complete opposite. Something that inspires us to do good and to save lives. How else do you explain the firemen and police that went into the burning WTC towers and sacrificed their own lives, the people aboard United Airlines Flight 93 that brought down the plane that could have killed countless more, the unity of our country now in the face of evil.

I to wonder how God could allow this kind of evil. I dont know why he does. Humans have free will. But we are influenced by good and evil. Seems like he is very hands off with us on Earth and deals with all Evil once you leave Earth. I think these tragic losses and insanely evil terrorist allow us to learn, to unite, and to appreciate what we have.

The world has great amounts of evil as we witnessed on Tuesday September 11th, 2001. But the world has even more goodness as we have witnessed every day since and will to continue to witness into the future.

I dont go to church, I don't really believe in church, but I do believe in a God, a leader of all that is good.

That's my 2.5 cents.

[FranchiseCat]

ScreamingRocketJet:

Please excuse my blanket statement about religion. As Buddhism is the by far (IMO) the most benevolent of religions. If you can call it a religion, opposed to a philosphey.

[Live]

Good post, Win3Cat5.

Unity.

Respect.

Appreciation.

The need to resolve the often petty differences and insecurities that cause, in an absolutely irrational manner, the tragedies of Tuesday.

Maybe these are some of the lessons to take from this disaster.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by FranchiseCat
MattsayzIstillbelieve!!!:

Well said. Organized religion is the ultimate form of oppression. A prison in which your mind and spirit can never escape.

As a Catholic, I don't feel oppressed. No one is holding a gun to my head forcing their views upon me. My mind is free to examine other religions as well as non-religions. In turn, I don't force my beliefs upon anyone else.

Please explain your statement. You've already backed down from including Buddhists as being oppressed.

[ROCKSS]

Franchisecat, I was curious to why you made the following statement

"Please excuse my blanket statement about religion. As Buddhism is the by far (IMO) the most benevolent of religions. If you can call it a religion, opposed to a philosphey"

IMHO To some extent religion is a philosophy, or a way of life in which the nucleus of the philosophy is a belief in a higher power. In my case I believe in God. I dont want to get into the whole theological debate with anyone but I was just curious. Peace

[FranchiseCat]

bobrek:


First of all let me state that I am not here to attack anyone's religion. To some extent, ALL religions have positives within them. I very glad to hear that you don't feel oppressed, but then again why would you feel oppressed? Afterall, you "chose" Catholicism as a form of religion to practice. Or did you?

I am 30 years old and 2/3 of my life I grew up a very devout Baptist. Yet I feel that to be one of the most oppressive religions, along with Catholicism, out there. Not in a form of "putting a gun to your head", but the initial intent of religion, from its early creation. Archaeology has uncovered many astonishing facts about man from civilizations long past. Evidence, if you will, that man was created by a higher entity(ies), but not discussed or accepted by the "church". I could go into detail, but quite frankly, I don't feel like doing the typing. I am at work right now.

Now as far as backing down in regards to Buddhism. You may see it that way, but I tend to give respect, were respect is due. Let me give you this quote on Buddhism:

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity"

IMO, ALL religions should aspire to this. But sadly it is my belief that very few do. If I have to defend the philosophy that I have attained through the last decade of research, then I will. But we should both agree that "Christianity" and Islam religions are tainted in blood, greed and hypocrisy.

FC

[FranchiseCat]

ROCKSS :

You are absolutely correct. 100%. The reason I chose that language is because, as I grew up Baptist, I felt that it wasn't a philosophy so much as a fanatic belief. Borderline brainwashing in my opinion. My late teens and early twenties, I searched. I searched for that something to fill the "void" that almost every christian religion tells you that you have. I have Catholic friends, so I went to their places of worship, learned some of their doctrines, but could not find what I was looking for there either. Fire and brimstone preaching breeds fear IMO, not enlightenment. And how many Hail Mary's do you have to say to make it into Heaven under Catholicism?

[bobrek]

I still don't see why you feel that all organized religion (except Buddhism) is oppressive today. How are Christians oppressed and/or how do Christians oppress others today? Granted, many years ago, religions did participate in oppressive behavior, but I don't see Christianity doing so today. Perhaps your use of the word "oppressive" to describe organized religion in the present is what is confusing to me. Christian religous leaders certainly aren't tyrannical nor do they exercise their authority unjustly upon a people.

I was raised Catholic. I chose to remain and practice Catholicism when I became an adult. I raised my children Catholic and I encourage them to practice their Christian faith, but in no way do I force them to do so. They are adults, they can make up their own minds.

I am sorry that you have had negative religious experiences in your time. Incidentally, I have faith that I can get into heaven without saying a single Hail Mary (although I regularly pray the Rosary - so with me it's a moot point). I am sure there are countless folks in heaven who have never said one Hail Mary.

[subtomic]

Originally posted by ScreamingRocketJet
Subtonic...

If you want me to take your opinion seriously, please get my name right. You wouldn't think much of me if I called you ScreamerJetRocket, would you? ;)

Originally posted by ScreamingRocketJet
I have spent a fair amount of time in 'third world' countries...and I can easily say I have seen a million more smiles than I have ever seen in some of the worlds most 'succesful' cities...

You'll also see more smiles in a lunatic asylum. Doesn't mean they aren't suffering.

Originally posted by ScreamingRocketJet
A lot of life is attitude...being happy with what you have...not being upset with what you don't have...

I agree with you up to a point. A bigger house, a faster car, and shiny clothing certainly isn't the path to a satisfying life. But if you take away the air we breathe or the food we eat, a "smile on our face" isn't going to stop our suffering. And for any of us to tell a person who by any standards is experiencing significant physical pain (pain that cannot be alleviated by a change in "attitude") to be "happy with what they have" comes off as condescending and Pollyannaesque wish-wash.

I don't believe in "free" will because the fact of the matter is, our "will" is largely shaped by how we are raised and the environment in which we are raised. Now I can't speak for the people on this board, but I had very, very little say in these things growing up. Although I am an atheist, I also view morality from a very Western/Christian point of view. Did I choose this particular view? Not really - I grew up in the Western Hemisphere in an Episcopalian family. And while I can challenge aspects of such a view (which also is not solely an aspect of my personality - both my parents are skeptics), the fact remains that Western and Christian thought will always influence me.

I will also mention that much of our attitude is controlled by hormones and chemicals in the brain. Why do you think drug abuse is so pervasive? - it has the ability to simulate the biological reactions in our bodies that control our mood. It's literally "attitude adjustment" in a easily consumed substance.

I can't imagine that a God who professes mercy would be so cruel as to punish those whose "attitudes" fail to meet some standard. How awful.

[subtomic]

Originally posted by bobrek
Christian religous leaders certainly aren't tyrannical nor do they exercise their authority unjustly upon a people.

When the pope stops inferring that people who use birth control will go to hell, then maybe you'll be half-right.

Originally posted by bobrek
I was raised Catholic. I chose to remain and practice Catholicism when I became an adult. I raised my children Catholic and I encourage them to practice their Christian faith, but in no way do I force them to do so. They are adults, they can make up their own minds.

But I bet you would agree that by being raised Catholic, both you and your children's worldviews are irreversibly colored by Catholic dogma. Even if you were to choose to practice a different religion, Catholicism would always influence the way you approach all aspects of life. I firmly believe that the decisions we make as adults are largely dictated by the ones made for us as children.

Originally posted by bobrek
I am sure there are countless folks in heaven who have never said one Hail Mary.

I wish you were the Pope. :) Unfortunately, the Church has always seemed more interested in controlling people than enlightening them. Nothing would make me happier than to see religion disappear and be replaced by a more personal and private spirituality.

[FranchiseCat]

subtomic :

Aww, you beat me to it.

Bobek:

Oppression can be overt or subversive. Subtomic has given an example. ANY power, be it governmental or theological, that takes from the people that support that power and yet let those "followers" suffer in poverty, sickness, etc is oppressive.

Additionally, you concede that many religions of past (including Catholicism) was overtly oppressive. How can you follow a belief that was initially corrupt? Christianity was forced on people in fear of death or eternal damnation. But because the "church" doesn't practice this openly any longer, the faith is now pure and right? That logic does not compute.

Think about your statement that you don't force your children to practice your faith. When your children were small, did you ever have to force them to go to church? Honestly. Maybe a few times, right? I am sure you are a TERRIFIC father, but want kind of encouragement did you give your children when they didn't want to go? Some form of punishment? Threats of no blessings from the Holy Mother? What? And now that your kids are adults, how many years of Catholic beliefs have been placed upon them, encouraged, force or otherwise? Decades, right? Have you ever taken them to a synagogue? How about a good ole Black Southern Baptist church? Protestant church? Probably never, right? So were they really ever free to choose their religion? No. Not until after they have had decades of your beliefs indoctrinated into them.

Let me close by saying this:

Bobek, I respect you as person. I can't place a face to you, but your words are eloquent and intelligent. I am not an atheist, I am not sure if I am even agonistic. I feel true that there is a God, but a God unlike anything that has ever been taught in church by man. Please do not take offense to my beliefs, as I would never take offense to yours.

FC

[bobrek]

I do not take offense at your remarks, however, I will correct a misconception. Believe it or not, but there were never any threats that were made to get my 2 children to go to church. They may not have wanted to go, but they kept it to themselves. They also seemed to enjoy their church experience. There was much more to it than simply attending Mass. There were youth groups that they joined and various projects for them to participate in. For instance, my son made 2 mission trips to Mexico and helped build a couple of buildings for the poor and destitute. He also made a trip to Montana and helped with work in a national park.

Once they had the freedom of a driver's license, they were given the option to go to church with us, go by themselves or to not go at all. Invariably my son continued to go, but more often than not, chose a different Mass time than us (one that his friends usually went to). My daughter, on the other hand, was going through a period of disenchanment with the church in general from the age of about 17-just recently and more often than not did not go at all. She has seemed to change her views back to acceptance of the church and is planning to have a Catholic ceremony for her wedding next summer. Both my wife and I were encouraged to hear that even though we continued to make sure she knew that this was HER wedding and to not consider a Catholic ceremony for anyone's benefit other than her own.

My children have been to a synagogue, they have been to a Baptist service with us and they have attended services of other faiths with their friends. (Don't assume things you don't know). We actually encouraged out daughter to seek out other forms of faith if she so desired.

There are many things that have changed over the years. Whites were intially cruel to blacks in this country. While prejudice and racism still exist, things are better. Does that make currentwhites bad? Our forefathers were cruel to the American Indians, should I not consider myself an American due to their corruptness and cruelty? Germans performed terrible atrocities upon Jews, should I not associate with Germans?

I assume that you consider the American government oppressive based on your following statement:

ANY power, be it governmental or theological, that takes from the people that support that power and yet let those "followers" suffer in poverty, sickness, etc is oppressive.

There are many Americans suffering in poverty, homelessness and hunger.

[bobrek]

One more thing, which I forgot to mention. The only private school my kids ever attended was Northwest Academy in Houston which is operated by First Baptist Church. They had a tremendous opportunity to experience the Baptist side of Christianity while there.

[FranchiseCat]

Bobek:

First of all let me say congratulations in regards to your daughter's upcoming wedding. I am sure you are very happy and proud of her.

I am overjoyed in being wrong this time. Many do not encourage their children to experience different beliefs, thoughts or way of life. Perhaps if more people were like you, the path to enlightenment would be much further along. My respect for you deepens even more.

In regards to your racism analogies, that is comparing apple with oranges. We are talking about faith, religion. Something that an individual can choose to follow or not. Completely different from slavery/racism. Are current Whites bad? In general, no. Is White people who teach their children twisted hatred bad? Yes. Were you born in the USA? Yes, then you are American. Again apple and oranges. Disassociate with Germans because of past atrocities....no. But would you associate with skin-head, quasi-nazi's?

Maybe I can explain my position best this way:

Many people were outraged with the Clinton-Lewinski (sp?) scandal. Why? Because the President was amoral, he lied, etc, etc. What does that really translate into? How can we follow a leader, that is unprincipled. He is supposed to be the example, the light of the nation. IMHO, man's religion is inately corrupt. Knowing this, how can I follow? If you speak of faith, then fine. That is different. I have faith that my beliefs are true. Even if I am wrong, they are not corrupted and twisted. Not for my gain or anyone elses.

Anyway Bobek, this has been very interesting. I look forward to seeing your response, but for now I must go. I will check to see if you have any further response in the morning. Until then, have a great evening.

[Stone Cold Hakeem]

Religion in the Context of Tragedy --

I'm terrible at articulating my points so I hope y'all can bear with and/or someone will come along and repeat me in clearer, more concise language. :)

I think fear compels us to lash out at some Divine Entitity, the want to blame something where blame cannot be easily placed, the realization that perhaps life is not risk free -- that we're all walking the wire without a safety net.

How could He forsake us?
How could he allow innocent people to die?

Why ask? We'll never know. Religion has presumed for thousands of years that this Divine Entity is like man, thinks like man, and acts like man. That while working us like marrionettes, he simultaneously judges are actions. That he's angered when we stray from his path, that he loves us when we are faithful, that were are to him like children or sheep or what not.

We anthropomorphize our Divine Arbiter to better understand him, we've been doing it forever, from Sun-Worship through Greek Mythology, from Christianity to Islam when reality is, whatever, whomever is author of life is well beyond any comprehension and certainly not subject to the gamut of emotions that rule us.

Our time is better served uplifting others and improving the conditions around us for everyone, and not being concerned about the motivations of some divine entitiy.

[ScreamingRocketJet]

Subtomic

The asylum gag is a pretty stupid comparison mate...completely ignorant and socially naive.

My wife works for the government of Thailand...so we spend a fair amount of time there. Thailand is the worlds only Buddhist Kingdom...and is also known as the 'land of smiles'.

I have a great number of Thai friends...the smiles are genuine.

Material things aren't as important to them...they beleive in re-birth and a path to enlightenment. They have found a peace that I truely envy... :)

[outlaw]

isn't Bangcock the sex capital of the world? maybe that's why everyone's smiling :)

[subtomic]

ScreamingRocketJet,

You obviosly missed my point with the asylum analogy. "Smiles" don't equal the absence of suffering. To believe otherwise is the heighth of naivete. Please read my entire post before making blanket statements like that.

[subtomic]

Originally posted by outlaw
isn't Bangcock the sex capital of the world? maybe that's why everyone's smiling :)

You made my point better than I did. Thank you.

[3fingeredgus]

Stone Cold Hakeem: I couldn't agree more. I think your post was quite articulate, actually. Good job.

I took a lot of Philosophy in College and the first day of my Philosophy of Religion class, we were assigned to write a paper answering the following question:

Did God create Man or did Man create God?

My answer: yes.

[ScreamingRocketJet]

Outlaw and Subtonic

Man...you guys have serious problems...look at a whole countries culture. Houston is known as the red neck capital of the world...but we all know that isn't true...Bangkok represents NOTHING of the real Thailand.

As someone married to a Thai and who has a lot of Thai friends...people who are Doctors, Police...my wife is a Pharmacist...nurses...that's offensive...

Subtomic...mate, you must be an absolute moron.

Actually, I shouldn't say that...

I am guessing you are 12 to 14??.. and just naive...

I hope you grow up one day.

[THE BREESE]

I lost faith in god on December,21,1999, My best fried was killed in a bus crash in Colorado. The bus was on its way back from a CHURCH ski trip. 3 people were killed and around 40 injured. some of those who were injured had cruched pelvises and now have trouble walking and other every day thngs.

R.I.P. KD

[subtomic]

ScreamingRocketJet,

Wait a minute - hold up on the name-calling for a minute. Because believe it or not, I see and agree with (to a degree) the point you're trying to make. A positive attitude is a definite way to mitigate the trials and tribulations that all humans must endure. When I had a similar argument with another person re: human suffering and free will, the other person told me the story of a political prisoner who decided to embrace his surroundings. He used the time for introspection and made attempts to socialize with his prisoners (he even offered to share his meager food with one of the guards). Amazingly, when the prison in which he was kept was freed, he was the only prisoner who did not require psychological therapy.

However, I would never argue that the ex-prisoner didn't suffer at all. Where you and I seem to diverge is the extent to which attitude influences suffering. I do not doubt for a second that Thailand has a significant number of happy and content citizens. But admit it, your posts practically painted the place as Shangri-la. The point that I have been trying to make is that while attitude can alleviate suffering, it does not and cannot eliminate it completely. With the exception of saints and fictional characters, we cannot will away starvation, disease, physical pain.

This of course brings me back to my original point - why would a God, a God that professes in the Bible to be merciful, allow humans to suffer in instances where free will is not involved?

[ScreamingRocketJet]

Sub

Good points and peace!

I was a bit angry with the Bangkok joke...my wife and a lot of friends are Thai and they are the kindest, sweetest people you'd ever meet. Thai people hate the sex trade that goes on there...and 99.9% of them have nothing to do with it. Anyway...that's another topic all together!

Re Thailand...it was a silly example by me anyway as Thailand is hardly a place of suffering etc.

I spend half the year in Sydney and half there...and one is as easy as the other to live in all honesty.

I guess a better example would be the very place this whole topic has arisen from...Afghanistan...and yes, I agree that the suffereing there etc is terrible.

Buddhism has a lot of literature on suffereing and the reasons for it...you may want to read it sometime...

I am at work... sorry if this is a rushed reply...

[Bigman]

The Breese:

Don't give up faith man!! I lost my best friend of 15 years exacly one year ago in a car accident. I do not blame god for this. I believe that god creates and lives through each of us.

I was brought up with Christian beliefs. I've accepted Jesus as my savior. Actually several times (just to make sure;) ). But I've always questioned a lot of the Christian beliefs. For example: Why is it that I will be saved even if I do evil deeds, yet the child who never is introduced to Christianity and dies, ends up in hell? I just can't buy into that. I believe in god and Jesus Christ but I don't take the Bible as literally as most Christian organizations do. I mean why is God potrayed as an angry, jealous and vengeful God? I can't buy that. I believe God loves everyone, equally. I have a sneaking suspicion that we're all praying to the same God. We just give him different names. Now, will I go to hell for saying this? Or can I ask for Christ's forgiveness and it's all good? Man I get confused over this!!

[ROXRAN]

GOD bless EVERYONE....

[outlaw]

sorry if the joke offended you scream.

it wasn't meant as a put down of thailand or thai people. i happen to think sex is a good thing.

just trying to lighten up this thread. again, my apologies.

[ScreamingRocketJet]

Not a problem Outlaw:)

I love sex as much as anyone:D

LOL

I guess I am sensitive on that issue...because you would not believe how many times people say "the sex scene in Bangkok must rock" after I tell them I am married to a Thai. I am always like "ummm...my wife is a qualified Pharmacist" and one person once responded "wow...they have Universities?"

I'm like "what year is this?":rolleyes:

It would be like me meeting a guy who is married to a black woman and saying "hey, they make great slaves" or something equally ridiculous.

Funny thing is though...my wife and other Thai's I know never get upset if people have a misconception of them. They believe in accpeting that people make mistakes and not wasting energy getting upset by wrong thoughts...

I guess there is a lesson in that for everyone:)