Bottom Line: Do you trade Hakeem and/or Charles?

[Clutch]

Reading Mitch Lawrence's column, he mentioned as one of his NBA Notes bullets:

"How soon before Rod Strickland, openly rebelling against Gar Heard's demand for discipline, gets dealt? How long before the dying Rockets' start dealing off old-timers Charles Barkley and Hakeem Olajuwon?"

Let me get all the disclaimers out of the way:

"It's too early to be jumping to such a premature conclusion and display such a lack of faith Clutch!" What I'm wondering is if this keeps up... as in if the Rockets are 9-29 by midseason.

"They make too much money for anyone to take them on!" This isn't my point. I'm not wanting to get in to the salary cap semantics on this one. I understand Barkley makes 9K and Hakeem 12-14K, and to find someone to match those salaries would be incredibly difficult. However, you can always find a way to get a trade done.

"Where's your loyalty?" Personally I think the loyalty argument went out the window the second the referendum had officially failed. The fans wanted the Rockets to be loyal -- the fans weren't loyal to the Rockets. However, I understand this issue and I think you'll find the argument "for" a trade could be based on loyalty as well.

"Hakeem and Charles both still got game!" Exactly. If they didn't, then a trade would be impossible.

Wanting to trade someone doesn't necessarily mean you don't like them anymore or have no loyalty to them. In fact, some trades are because you have even more loyalty to them. That's one of the reasons I think it would be in everyone's best interest -- I'd root for both regardless. If we're clearly a lottery-bound team near the trading deadline in February, I would hope the Rockets do the right thing and put Hakeem and Charles both in winning teams' uniforms. (Hell, they hated Scottie and gift-wrapped Portland for him).

Translation: If we're going to suck, then lets suck hard. Lets clear out the older guys we're relying on too much, give the young guys a chance to play and prepare for that high first round pick.

Being one of the league's elite is great. Heading towards the lottery sucks, but it's a necessary evil.

However, there is nothing worse than the kiss of franchise death that is middle-of-the-road mediocrity.

Do you trade Hakeem and/or Charles?

------------------
Clutch
Out to prove Scottie Pippen will apologize at gunpoint.
www.clutchcity.net (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[popeye]

Good points Clutch. During a debate, it is always best to head off the opposition, before they jump in. LOL

All valid points. All answered with your usual aplomb.

Couple of things.
1. Charles is the most likely candidate for trade. His loyalty to Houston is not as entrenched as Hakeem's. And visa versa. He will possibly still play with the other teamif traded. Hakeem very likely would retire outright, or threaten to. So no team will take a chance on him.
2. For the above reasons, the best scenario is probably Charles selecting a team he would like to go to, then us attempting to arrange it.LA Lakers???
3. I am not sold on this season being done based on the first twelve games. I see some improvement and will expect more. Twenty games or a so,will give us a better idea of where we are going.
4. I cannot see RT pulling the trigger on a trade of Hakeem or Charles, especially as unwilling participants. He may have to be overruled by the other two (CD and Les) and that would have some far reaching implications. So this will not be an easy decision, regardless of the outcome.
5. RT and CD may have some trade possibilities already. They are both reluctant to part with certain individual players, but a threat of "either that or we start looking at Hakeem and Charles" may make them both rearrange their thinking somewhat.

Cheers.

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]

[TheFreak]

I would love to be able to trade Barkley....wanted to ever since the Pippen trade went down, which was the minute we were out of contention, IMO.

I would trade Hakeem only at HIS request.

[JVoss]

I have to agree with all the comments so far. My first thought was also Barkley to LA. The Rockets have no chance of derailing Portland, but a LA team with Barkley just might http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

[RocketMan Tex]

Damn! DAYAMN!!!

Clutch, I never thought I'd be hearing this from you, but I understand. Now, let's tackle the question.

Do you trade Hakeem and/or Charles?

1. The time to trade Hakeem was during the offseason with the Raptors trade that Rudy nixed. I think Hakeem's trade value has gone down since the start of the season, and I do not think we would get very much for him. What we should do is try to convince him to retire after this year or buy out the last year of his contract.

2. Trading Charles would bring more value, but what teams would take him knowing this is his last year? This would also lessen what we would get for him.

I think that the time to trade either or both has passed us by. Someone needs to convince Hakeem to retire after this season and not wait until next. I do feel, however, that both Hakeem and Charles should be coming off the bench rather than starting.

------------------
Just Win Baby! More Than Twice!

[Will]

Dang, Clutch. Who switched cereals on you this morning?

If we do this, let's do it rationally:

1. If you're gonna trade one of these guys for the reasons Clutch just laid out, the same reasons justify trading the other.

2. Name the teams where each guy fits best.

3. Draw up the various player combinations that match his salary, and pick the one you like best.

4. Send them to contenders -- but this problem will probably take care of itself, as it did with Scottie. Because their salaries are big, the only teams willing to take them on will be teams for whom they are the final piece of the puzzle.

Chuck to L.A. meets all these criteria.

[thacabbage]

We should NEVER, EVER, EVER trade Hakeem against his own will.

That would be downright disrespectful to this legend and it would be painful to watch the most versatile big man in the history of the game, play his last game in any other uni other than Rockets gear. I don't care if we are 2-80...let the Dream stay.

If Charles wants to go, then sure let him go somewhere else, though I doubt Barkley would request a trade like that. He doesn't really seem like the type to take the easy way out and quit on his team like Pippen did.

I would trade Charles if he wanted out, but he has more pride than that. He isn't the type to just walk out on a struggling team and roll to a championship. Hakeem? Hakeem is a Rocket for life.

------------------
"Museum officials outside of Houston have reported an ancient artifact identified as "Rudy's Postup Plays - 1994" stolen, as of November 2, 1999...officials urge residents to contact...

[PhiSlammaJamma]

Barkley deserves to be traded so that he gets one more shot at a title. It would be the right thing to do and helps us out in the future.

[TheFreak]

Cabbage, what do you mean, Charles isn't that type? He's threatened to jump ship to a contender every off-season he's been here. He made up some stupid story about how Phoenix had disrespected him just so he could get traded to Houston. Are you sure about that?

[popeye]

RocketmanTex:

1. Please keep in mind that Hakeem retiring early, or us buying him out does not give us his salary for cap purposes. If it is merely having him on the floor that is the problem then he an be sat for the same effect.

2. I disagree that Hakeem is not tradeable. There are just NO quality big men out there today. New York would kill to get him. Indiana may be able to convince Bird to stay another year if Hakeem was on board. Look, Hakeem is a quality item and an asset to any team.The powers that be know this.Have you seen his last three games?

3. I disagree that Barkley's one year contract would make him a liability to trade. On the contrary. He offers a team a veteran who can, and has proven he can produce at this age, AND the opportunity to dump him or keep him next year if they can convince him to stay. How many managers or coaches have had to put up with Charles over the last several years who said: " I can't stand that guy out there, but dang, I wish we had him. Even for one year." My guess is quite a few.

JVoss

I agree the most "knee-jerk" reaction (and most likely spot) is he would end up would be LA Lakers. But think of this for a moment. Larry Brown wants to unload Ratlif (maybe Hill) and Hughes in Philly. They are trying to improve the gate receipts. Charles ending his career where he started it in a Sixer uniform, with a coach he likes! (Charles has said many times, I will enter the HOF as a Sixer) Charles maybe as an executive in Philly. Charles maybe as a consultant/assistant to Calipari(who will be coach next year) in Philly. Mmmmmm. Just speculation,but the possibilities are awsome,folks.

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]

[thacabbage]

I really believe that he has threatened to leave Houston every year for the good of the team (why am I defending the guy I have been so critical of?.. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif ).

I firmly believe that Charles' ego will keep any team from succeeding, but with that said, he is anything but a quitter. I really doubt he would give up like this, knowing people would say, "Charles Barkley just dumped his old team and hitched a ride with the Lakers to the Championship."

Hey, I wish it would happen. It would be the best thing for our future if we traded Charles right now, but it just isn't gonna happen.

[thacabbage]

But on another note: (sorry this is a bit off the topic, Clutch, just wanted to point this out.)

Those of you who still think we can win it all now, (POPEYE, LOL), what do you think about this?

"How soon before Rod Strickland, openly rebelling against Gar Heard's demand for discipline, gets dealt?

Rod is a very tough point guard to defend, and a witty veteran. Say we move Francis to the 2, Shandon to the 3, and Rod to the 1..(?). It would be a problem putting together a $10 million package, but if we could, would you go for it?

If you want to win now, some names to look at are Rider, Strickland, Sprewell, Richmond...

I have already ruled out Rider seeing that he is a cancer, and we don't have enough to get Spree. Richmond doesn't have any game left. Rod though, I think could be had..

[Finalfantasy]

The way things are going, CB might request a trade openly like Pippen did, which helps the Rockets in two ways, first, teams can get him for scrubs and second round picks knowing he wants to leave. No team would give up anything substantial knowing this is his last year. So the Rockets have a chance to pick up some rough gems like Carlos Rogers in the scrubs. Hey Scott Pollard of Seattle sounds great, or Ameachi of Orlando.

Secondly, with Chuck gone, the Rockets would have less fire and sink to the bottom, hopefully get the No.1 lottery pick and then pick up the next Wilt Chamberlain, the 7-6 Chinese center Yao Min with 70%FG, only to know that he is not allowed to play NBA unless trading Hakeem to China's national team through the WTO.

[Clutch]

Taking up Will's challenge to "name the teams", but damn -- Popeye beat me to one of them.

Charles to Philly

First team that came to mind. I know they are not much better than us presently (5-7), but it makes sense for Charles to be where he started his career, and that team is very talented and likely to turn it around. Good coach in Larry Brown. Obviously you're not going to get a young buck like Larry Hughes for a half-year-left player no matter how much Brown wants to deal him, but Theo Ratliff may not be out of the realm of possibilities. He's sitting on a 7 year $57 million deal though, and I doubt a one-year could be dealt for someone who isn't a free agent until 2005. But if possible, Brown wants to get rid of that contract and Barkley frees up space for this summer.

Charles to LA

I really doubt this. Phil still wants Scottie somehow I'm guessing, and bringing in Barkley obviously isn't going to make that work. I'd be surprised... but he certainly could help the Lakers and fill their biggest need. Who knows also if Shaq would get over the fact that the not even 6'5" Barkley kicked his ass.

As for Hakeem...
Philly also comes to mind here, as does New York, as Popeye mentioned. But the team that most comes to mind is Boston. Pitino attempted to get Dream back when the Raptors rumors surfaced. I don't think Toronto would be in the hunt seeing that the two biggest pieces to that trade are now gone (#5 and #12 draft pick in last summer's draft). Charlotte, Indiana, Milwaukee -- sure.

In the West -- Phoenix. Everyone knows they need and have always needed a big man. If you view Dream as a center or power forward, what contending team wouldn't want him? Can you imagine a Laker lineup with Shaq in the middle and Hakeem at PF? Scary. I'd like to see Rasheed Wallace attack the basket on that team.

Or dare I say it -- even Portland. Now that is scary. Jermaine O'Neal hasn't impressed over there ...

Anyhow, don't be insulted by the speculation. I think both of those players deserve to be on legitimate contenders at this stage of their career, and I still hope for a Rocket turnaround. The disclaimers still apply ... but I'm guessing other teams have made a few calls to the Rocket front office to check to see if a Fire Sale is about to go on.

------------------
Clutch
Out to prove Scottie Pippen will apologize at gunpoint.
www.clutchcity.net (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[Pole]

I'd sit them both down and ask them. Say, "It doesn't look like this is our year. If either or both of you would like to play for a contender, we'll facilitate the trade--as long as we get some youth and athletecism--or picks--in return."

[thacabbage]

I agree the most "knee-jerk" reaction (and most likely spot) is he would end up would be LA Lakers. But think of this for a moment. Larry Brown wants to unload Ratlif (maybe Hill) and Hughes in Philly. They are trying to improve the gate receipts. Charles ending his career where he started it in a Sixer uniform, with a coach he likes! (Charles has said many times, I will enter the HOF as a Sixer) Charles maybe as an executive in Philly. Charles maybe as a consultant/assistant to Calipari(who will be coach next year) in Philly. Mmmmmm. Just speculation,but the possibilities are awsome,folks.

Whoa....Holdon there Popeye, you have absolutely got to be BSing me if you think there is even a snowball's chance in hell that Barkley could end up where he started! Sure, I would love to bring Rat in here to add to the young nucleus, but their is absolutely NO WAY Philly takes Barkley on.

Just too many reasons:

*First of all, if Iverson has indeed changed, like you pointed out to me, and he is more of a leader, you think he is going to go for a guy like Barkley? Charles can't even deal with Francis' shooting, you think he is going to stay out of the post for Iverson?
*Theo Ratliff is just what the Sixers need. A young big man who knows his role, plays defense, and compliments Iverson. Barkley is exactly what the Sixers DONT need. A guy to come in, and clash with Iverson. Right now, that Sixers team, outside of Hughes, has relative harmony. Everyone knows their role, and they know that this is Iverson's team. The addition of Barkley would totally disrupt that.
*Besides the only thing that keeps the small backcourt (Snow, Iverson) working is the presence of two strong, defensive minded big men in Geiger and Ratliff. Add Barkley, and that lineup is ruined from the foundation.

I would love to trade Barkley for Ratliff, but even if Barkley wanted to return there, there is no way the Sixers would welcome him back. Even if they did, no way that decision gets out alive past Iverson. He is determined to win the Big One, and does not need any distractions. This is ALlen's team, and everyone in that lockerroom is aware of that, and they know their roles. They have a minute problem in Hughes right now. They don't need to add to it by bringing in Charles.

[Launch Pad]

4 out of 5 Rockets players agree: playing decent defense is important (guess who the 5th one is) http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

This seems like a no-brainer to me. Condemn Hakeem all that you want, I doubt that you could find 5 centers in the league right now, who are as good as him on both ends of the floor. If you can convince him to play within a certain role, then he still is one of the most valuable assets on this team.

Chuck on the other hand has the heart, but as the old saying goes, "You can't teach heighth." At a hair over 6'4" he can't hold most of the SFs in the league, much less the PFs. In addition, he has as much problem controlling his ego as he does his weight (No please God don't pull up for another 3 Chuck!) http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif I just don't believe that it's any small coincidence that the first year that we imported Chuck was the first year that we started going downhill.

Send him to the Lakers or any team that wants to clear up $9 mil in salary cap next year when (if) he retires.

[Sherlock]

I'm sure these conversations are already going on. Dream and Chuck can see first-hand what is realistic and what is not regarding this season.

I don't see any way at this point that Houston can go all the way, as much as I had hoped they would gel in time. I see way too much confusion and lack of chemistry. Since Chuck only has this year left, or at the most next year, to go for a championship ring, I think he might prefer to go to a championship contender, and perhaps is already having these discussions, in his discouragement. I also believe he is loyal to the Rockets, and if he felt that he could bring some future talent to the Rockets in the process, he'd discuss this with the head office.

Dream is still one of the best centers in the NBA, and I don't think Cato can replace him, as much as I like him. I believe Dream has a number of years left in him, especially if he adjusts away from the basket. If he wants to stay and work with our rebuilding team, we could be championship caliber in another couple years. We'd need to move Cato to replace Chuck, perhaps Rogers at the 3, and pick up a future center to train under Akeem.

I don't know if Anderson or Cat are going to cut it at shooting guard. The idea of Chuck to Philly for Hughes and filler would be good, Indiana for Bender or Harrington, Croshere and filler, New York for Camby or Sprewell and filler, Miami for Outlaw or Brown and filler, LA for Rice and filler ... all these could fill missing holes for us and rebuild for the future.

If this is going to be our rebuilding year, then let's make a trade or two, use the year to develop a new offense and develop players, and get as high in the lottery as we can to get another great player to add to the mix.

In another 15 or 20 games, it'll be pretty clear which way we have to go.

[tod the bod]

Cabbage: I said Olajuwon for either Joe Smith or Tim Thomas. You highlighted Barkley. Are you trying to change the deal? Because I see no reason why Minnesota would want Barkley. They are pretty set at the forward position.

By the way, the Joe Smith thing really has possibilities. Joe Smith has a great comeback year last year for the T-Wolves and now, he barely plays because the T-Wolves, understandably, want to play Wally Szerbiak.
Does anyone have any idea what Joe Smith's contract is like??? Because I would like to keep him for a couple of years to see how he plays. In any event, he would make a great addition to the Rockets.

[heypartner]

BAD IDEA

This isn't about loyalty; this is about precedence. Clutch, it is very short-sighted of you to steer the franchise that direction. Unloading veterans right before retirement is not something a class organization would do. How does that effect current moral? How does that effect our future players look at this club? Do you think Francis would have come to this club w/o Dream and Barkley here?

As for your comment:

"If we're going to suck, then lets suck hard. Lets clear out the older guys we're relying on too much, give the young guys a chance to play and prepare for that high first round pick."

We are giving the young guys a chance to play. And Cato gets to learn from Dream. Barkley gets to teach Francis how to have a cool head and a strong mental game. Those are intangibles you are not considering.

The other thing is: if this does continue, as you say, we will get a high pick anyhow!!!

So, what you really are saying is, you think this team will improve its record considerably if left alone, you just don't want us to improve at the expense of a high draft pick.

Admit it Clutch...this is a thread about you wanting to prevent us from getting better this season...you want to sacrifice this season. And you want to sacrifice the integrity of a class organization. Bring on Ruport Murdoch!!!

repent...this is silly.

[GermanRocket]

As of right now, I would not trade either Hakeem or Charles.

Hakeem is completely, totally out of the question, and with or without disclaimers, I would not even consider bringing up the question. Hakeem has already stated that he would retire if the Rockets traded him. It would be awful and it would cause players around the league to trust the Rockets a lot less when considering a move to Houston. It would just not be the right thing to do. Besides, I still think Hakeem is one of the best 5-10 players in the game (if you trust ESPN's "player rater" for their Fantasy Basketball game, he's ranked third there for this season, actually, I think - I KNOW that that's only stats, but I think it's interesting). Can you really name anyone we could realistically get in a trade that would be better than Hakeem? Anyway, I don't even want to think about it because it should be out of the question either way.

With Charles, it's a slightly different question. I actually have to admit that I think that trading Charles would most probably be helpful for the Rockets. I think Hakeem can adapt much better to playing with Francis (and vice versa) than Charles can. However, Charles took "only" 1 million last year to play on the Rockets' team and he has always (well, almost) put in a lot of effort for the Rockets - so I would not trade him against his will. Anyway, if he indicated that he is interested in a trade, I would do it in a second.

[thacabbage]

Cabbage: I said Olajuwon for either Joe Smith or Tim Thomas. You highlighted Barkley. Are you trying to change the deal? Because I see no reason why Minnesota would want Barkley. They are pretty set at the forward position.

Tod, perhaps move Garnett to the center? No...I'm just rambling now. I guess Barkley to Minnesota isn't really a possibility. I can't see Hakeem requesting a trade to Minnesota on the other hand, so I don't know about that. I think Smith is at 2 mill a year, meaning Minn would have to cash in an additional $13 million. That's like trading away their entire bench, so I guess it is safe to throw any Minnesota possibilities out.

But what about Barkley for Thomas? Bucks are looking to unload him anyways due to contract dispute...

PF Barkley
SF Big DOG
C Tractor
SG Allen
PG Cassell

wishful thinking. I still think Barkley to Indiana is the most realistic thing we have right now. Perhaps trade Barkley for Best and Bender(?), turn around and package Best with Mobley and Mack to Dallas for Finley/Philly for Hughes/Ratliff-Hughes/Toronto for McGrady and cap fillers? Best would give us up flexibility in many trades as he is a valuable point guard and we already know that Toronto wants him. Hmmm...

[GermanRocket]

Great post, Heypartner. I just read Tod the Bod's stuff and the most ridiculous thing (sorry) in this thread was the idea of Olajuwon or Barkley for "Tractor Traylor"...LOL

[GermanRocket]

I still think that Olajuwon and Barkley are both better than all the guys you mentioned for possible trades will ever be and Olajuwon and Barkley will still be better in two years than all of these guys will ever be. It just doesn't make sense.

[Will]

Since some of us are just having fun here, I nominate:

1. Scottie to Portland.
2. Charles to Philly.
3. Finals: Portland vs. Philly.

[tod the bod]

Hey Partner:

What Rockets are you watching? Have you seen anything that would lead you to conclude that the Rockets will make the playoffs? I havn't. The Rockets have already given up the season, trading Barkley and/or Olajuwon isn't going to change that.

If the Rockets are not going to make the playoffs this season, there is no reason to assume that the Rockets are going to make the playoffs next season. Barkley will not be with the team, and Olajuwon will only be one year older.

Consequently, the Rockets have two choices. (1) They can let the team continue to decline over a long period; or (2) They can trade two very marketable players, speed up their decline, and start the rebuilding process, by picking up good young players and maybe a top draft pick.

It cannot be restated enough that the Rockets will not truly begin the rebuilding process until both Olajuwon and Barkley are off the team. They take up too much of the salary cap and prevent the team from obtaining top-tier free agents.

As for your argument that players will learn from Olajuwon so we should keep him around -- let's try to be a little realistic here. At this point in their career, Cato is probably a better defender than Olajuwon. And Cato is not the athlete that Olajuwon is/was. Consequently, Cato will not be able to pick up Olajuwon's moves from Hakeem. He is what he is. Olajuwon isn't going to change that. Moreover, Cato is just a stop-gap measure until the Rockets can get a better center.

[fatty fat fat]

Man, man, man. Y'all are going to feel so ridiculous in about a month when the Rockets are getting back in shape.

I don't know what you have been watching guys, but the Rockets have looked substantially better in the last two games. We almost beat Seattle and Sacto and we're still trying to gell. The chemistry is starting to show, and these guys are definitely playing better than a month ago. We have a good team here guys, don't jump off the wagon just yet.

(And yes, folks. That is exactly what a bandwagoner is...."We need to trade him, or him. Man that guy sucks, why did we ever get him....wait....they're starting to win....we still need to make changes though....wait....we're in the playoffs...well I'll just watch the games, but I know we're going to lose.....wait.....We made it to the finals! We're such a great team! We won the Championship! I knew it all along! The Rockets are the best team ever and I was the one who suggested everything that Rudy did! I'M AMAZING! I'M INCREDIBLE! I FORSEE THE FUTURE!"

Sarcasm aside, Love this team for who they are, not who they could be.

And remember, Hakeem said at the beginning of the year that this was the most talented team he has ever played on. That's got to mean something, huh? Anyone?

Have faith guys!

------------------
"I would like to thank... everyone... for their contriboootions" Hakeem accepting his MVP award at the 1999-2000 NBA Finals.

[GermanRocket]

I agree that the Rockets cannot start rebuilding until Chuck is gone. However, I am positive that we can rebuild with Hakeem on the team. Centers can still contribute even when they are old and Hakeem will still be better at 40 than any of the current young centers with the exception of Mourning and Shaq. Francis-Hakeem, a nice 1-2 punch for next year and I would even like it for more years if it wasn't for the salary cap.

[GermanRocket]

fatty fat fat, I couldn't agree more - I'm glad someone else agrees with me - but beware, when you call other fans bandwagoners, the almighty C might get on your case (ask me about it...)

[tod the bod]

German Rocket:

How many Rockets games have you watched this year. Do they even show Rockets games in Bonn? Do you even know what the Rockets' record is? Or are you just a German fantasy basketball player?

Maybe you have an attachment to Olajuwon because you like soccer are he used to play soccer.

Either way, Olajuwon is the highest paid player on the Rockets right now. He will be the highest paid player on the Rockets next year. If the Rockets are not going to make the playoffs this season and next season, you might as well trade Hakeem. You know that you aren't going to get equal talent for him. But you get whatever talent you can, and you try to free up cap room for next year. Barkley won't even be on the team next year. If we suck with him, we might as well trade him for help in the future.

One other thing. If you trade Olajuwon and/or Barkley you force Rudy T. to move away from the post-up offense that he is married to. Maybe we'll finally see an offense that tries to make the most of our young, talented point guard.

[GermanRocket]

Tod the Bod, true, I think it's pretty cool that Hakeem used to play soccer. I get some Rockets games on PayTV here, not many, unfortunately, but they also have a show on a sports channel where they show some games and the highlights from some games. That's why I have to refer to the boxscores more than I would if I could watch all games. I hope the fact that I don't get to see as many games doesn't mean that I can't still put my 2 cents in...
:-)

[tod the bod]

Fatty Fatty Fat:

Dude, I don't know if you have seen any of my posts over the past two years, but I don't think that I could ever be called a bandwagon fan. If there is such thing as a negative bandwagon, that is me. You could probably count my positive posts on one hand. Most of my posts are very disparaging towards the Rockets -- a team that I love despite the fact that I hate what they have become.

What I have tried to do for the past two years is to call on the Rockets to try to end the downwards spiral that they have been on since losing in the Western Conference Finals three seasons ago. In so doing, I have taken some very unpopular positions here, including that the Rockets should fire Rudy T. and the Rockets should get rid of Olajuwon and Barkley.

People here have said that the Rockets would be acting short-sighted if they get rid of Barkley or Olajuwon. To the contrary, the Rockets, for the first time in several years, will be looking towards the future, instead of looking at the current season.

Indeed, you are the short-sighted one. Do you really believe that the Rockets are going to win the championship over the next two seasons? If you don't, then you have to trade Olajuwon and Barkley. Just making the playoffs shouldn't be our goal. That is a losing attitude that should be reserved for teams like the Clippers. But that seems to be what your goals are.

My goal is to win a championship. IMHO, that means that the Rockets need to start to rebuild.

[GermanRocket]

Well, as I said, I still think we have a decent chance at the championship this season. I know it sounds crazy at 2-10, but...

[JVoss]

BTW ... <a href="http://espn.go.com/nba/news/1999/1123/190088.html">Sixers just lost Iverson for 3-6 weeks with broken thumb</a>

[tod the bod]

German:

I would never want to take away your right to put your "two cents" in. Go right ahead.

But if your ability to follow the Rockets is limited to watching a few games, reading the box scores, and watching the highlights on the German version of SportsCenter, your "two cents" are worth a whole lot less than that.
How could you possibly understand Hakeem's decline -- both in physical skill and, more important, in intensity.

And more important, how would you know how well Tractor Traylor has played and whether we should be interested in him.

[popeye]

Cab:

Actually one of the most underrated assets of Sir Charles is his lockeroom presence and leadership role. He teaches constantly. Well, I may be stretching to say he does it constantly. He has a great feel and knowledge of the game and harps at the youngsters all the time.

Sammy:

You of course are right,there isn't a lot to pick up in Pacer land. But as mentioned above by someone,(Cabbage?) Harrington is there. Croshere may be moved. I would love to have either of those guys. Bender is another, but who wants another kid, who needs to be taught to be coached right of the bat.

(Frankly the biggest problem with these "phenoms" that enter the league,they are difficult to coach, they won't listen. All talent.No smarts.And no where to aim their energies. Good, sometimes great,individual scorers, but lousy shooters. But, that's another story.)

Back to Sam and the Pacers. Do Not For A Second Think Miller Is Untouchable! I seriously doubt he would be made available for anything we have to offer. But he is not untouchable. Bird does not like him. He is not a leader and Bird has mentioned his star ball handler disappeared when he needed him most last year. He was talking about Reggie (1)not assuming leadership,primarily and (2) Reggie missed key (quality) baskets when they needed key points in the 98 playoffs. You can gear a play for your star shooter and have him mishandle or miss it only so many times in a seven game playoff. Especially if that same "star player" complains about bad coaching calls and most of his teammates "not pulling their "godamn weight" the night before elimination. Hey Reggie did you get the extension you been asking for since the last day of last season,yet?

That leaves Jackson and a couple others. Most of those guys have not enough salary to even come close. Maybe Tabak(LOL).

Other Posters:

I forget who said this. But you cannot trade Hakeem or Barkley for draft picks,even if they did agreed. Draft picks have no value against the cap. The receiving team would still have to come up with the $9-10 Million salaries to equate the 85-115% rule. Sorry. It would be an insult anyway. It's like Horry going to LA Lakers. They didn't have enough in actaul trade so Phoenix threw in cash. Embarassing. Don't think that wasn't lost on Robert. He saw the dis coming.

[GermanRocket]

Well, as I said, I have seen Rockets games this season and I have been following Hakeem for a while and it seems to me that he often starts out slow when the season begins and then he gradually improves as the playoffs approach. Concerning Tractor Traylor I really have to refer to the stats: If you think that 4.8 points, less than 1 assist and 4.5 rebounds a game, shooting .556 from the line, do justify a trade for Hakeem or Chuck...then what exactly am I missing here...do I have to actually SEE the guy bricking his free throws and not being able to pass the ball??

[heypartner]

Tod,,,and anyone else who give credence to trading away both leaders of your team right before retirement:

You must view this game from a fantasy basketball perspective. You clearly give no credence to the intangibles of this game, like leadership, team morale, and our some career minding players are attracted to class organizations who let them retire there.

Tod...I have not only watched every game (except the last two--hunting trip), but I been to every home game.

At this point, I do not see Cato being the best defender. The man leaves his feet too quickly. That's why he gets the fouls. Hakeem is still a better defender than Cato; Cato can simply jump higher. Also, Cato is not the rebounder I was hoping he would be. He hasn't shown me the fundamentals to block out, and he has a tendency to not clearly grab the ball. Watching Barkley, may or may not help him...but I hope it does.

But the main intangible is leadership...I am a firm believer that if you don't gracefully pass the leadership torch, you are no longer as a franchise can control that wholly underated intangible...at least underated on this thread...and in the mind of fanstasy-heads. Without a clear leader on the team, no matter how old they are, you have a leadership vacuum and are now at the mercy of the collective ego's on the team allowing someone to rise to leader.

For Tod's sake, let me rephrase something. I never said anything about the playoffs. I am not giving up on the value of the leadership of this franchise. If you think the team sucks, then you will get your top seven pick. If your goal is to get a top 3 pick, then you are giving up what makes this a classy organization.

YOU ARE GIVING UP ALL THE INTANGIBLES...just like a fanstasy basketball freak would do to purge everything for next year.

[popeye]

Thanks JVOSS. Makes Hughes a lot more valuable.eh?maybe he won't be traded afterall?

[Clutch]

heypartner:

"Do you think Francis would have come to this club w/o Dream and Barkley here?"

Unless Dream and Charles Barkley leaving the Rockets makes Houston a Canadian province....

.... yes.

"We are giving the young guys a chance to play. And Cato gets to learn from Dream. Barkley gets to teach Francis how to have a cool head and a strong mental game. Those are intangibles you are not considering."

Agreed, and it's a good argument. There are things to be said about keeping the two on the roster. However, I think you're taking it far too personal (see disclaimers) to be labeling me short-sighted and screaming at me to repent. I'm not saying this out of frustration or emotion. I'm not coming on after a loss and squealing, "WE SUCK! TRADE THEM ALL!" ... I think this is something that benefits both sides.

Just treading water in the NBA is a dangerous thing.

The other thing is: if this does continue, as you say, we will get a high pick anyhow!!!

So we suck, get a pretty good pick and lose our stars for nothing, OR we suck bigtime, get a great pick, get something for our stars AND give them a chance to end their careers on winning notes.

"So, what you really are saying is, you think this team will improve its record considerably if left alone,"

When did I say that? "considerably"? In fact, what I said was "if this keeps up" -- 9-29 as an example. I don't consider that a "considerable improvement", do you?

BUT, why build on ground that's about to shift way anyway? Why not fully start the rebuilding process, give guys like Carlos Rogers and Kelvin Cato the PT they deserve, and give Dream and Barkley a chance at the ring?

"you just don't want us to improve at the expense of a high draft pick."

If we're 9-29, I doubt the playoffs are in our future. Are you looking for the brass ring that is being the team in the lottery with the best overall record? One word for those who follow rebuilding projects: Cleveland.

Admit it Clutch...this is a thread about you wanting to prevent us from getting better this season...you want to sacrifice this season.

What is "better"? Define that for me heypartner. Is 35-47 better than 15-67 for a rebuilding franchise about to lose their key stars this year and next year? If anyone is being "short-sighted"...

"And you want to sacrifice the integrity of a class organization. Bring on Ruport Murdoch!!! repent...this is silly."

Did anyone blast the Portland Trailblazers organization for trading Clyde Drexler both to his hometown and a title contender? Can we all not agree that was a GOOD thing? Did it stop Steve Smith, Detlef Schrempf, Brian Grant, Rasheed Wallace, Damon Stoudamire and Scottie Pippen from going there? In fact, the Blazers were praised highly for putting Drexler in a position to get a ring.

I'm amazed you and GermanRocket can't see this.

Actually, I've got to be honest. I'm not really amazed GermanRocket can't see it.

fatty fat fat:

I've got news for you:

We're 2-10.

The bandwagon fans are long gone.

------------------
Clutch
Out to prove Scottie Pippen will apologize at gunpoint.
www.clutchcity.net (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[AT]

Hakeem to Minnesota for K.G.?

If we say please?

[GermanRocket]

Ok Clutch, here we go again, I don't know what your problem is.

Your comparison with the Clyde Drexler situation does not make sense in Hakeem's case for one simple reason: Clyde WANTED to go to Houston. Hakeem said that he would RETIRE if he was traded and he does NOT want to leave Houston.

Is it that hard to understand? I AM surprised you don't see this and I don't know what your personal problem with me is. I have nothing but respect for the great web service you are running here, but I really don't know what the deal is with you insulting me without cause.

[Almu]

Well, I am happy to be able to contribute to this thread right at the beginning before anyone takes all my thunder! http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

But IMHO, I think we should hold on to the team...FOR NOW.

If by Christmas, we don't see progress and I mean BIG TIME, 8 in a row, 10 out of their last 11, 13 out of their last 15 wins type of progress, then we trade CHUCK and not Dream. It would be absolutely impossible for me to trade Dream and function properly.

But, emotion aside, I would have to trade him ONLY IF he wishes. Its the most we can do to someone who brought us so much. If Dream wants, and to a certain extent Charles, then I say let them go. Though the team shows some flashes of possibilities, we have to look at the whole picture. If we trade them both, we can clear space and maybe(by some miracle of the biggest b-ball fan of all upstairs)we can make a run at Hill or Duncan or some big time free agent.

Damn, I am so depressed just talking about all this.

------------------
Live Rocketball. Breathe Rocketball. Die with Rocketball.

[tod the bod]

A couple of thoughts on leadership:

(1) Since when has Hakeem ever been a leader on this team??? IMHO Hakeem's biggest downside was that he has never been a vocal leader of the team. In fact, he was never a vocal leader in college as well. Hakeem has always deferred this role to other players. During the first championship season, Vernon Maxwell was the leader of the team, in the second championship season, Clyde Drexler was the leader of the team. It was never Hakeem. Maybe this is because Hakeem is a quiet person by nature. Maybe its because his is a foreigner whose English is, at times, weak. Maybe its because he is an African who cannot relate to the experience of the most of his American teammates. I have no idea. But when Hakeem led the team, it was with ability -- an ability that is much declined.
(2) I do believe that Barkley has been an important person in the locker room. It is my understanding, however, that he does not get along with Steve Francis. More important, however, Barkley will be gone next year. So the only question is whether we should keep Barkley and his experience and leadership, which will only last one more year, or whether we should trade Barkley for whatever LONG-TERM value we can get for him.

(3) Oh, and one other thing about leaders -- leaders don't let their team blow leads in the fourth quarter. I have never seen a team blow so many fourth quarter leads as the Rockets. So stick that in your leadership pipe and smoke it.

[tod the bod]

German: Hakeem wanted a long-term contract as part of being traded. His claim that he would retire was simply a ploy to get a better deal for himself.

[GermanRocket]

No, I think Hakeem said that he would probably retire if they traded him this summer when the trade rumors with Toronto came up. You're talking about a different situation. Hakeem has clearly said that he does not want to be traded. Clutch's argument was that he doesn't understand why it is so hard to understand that it can be a GOOD thing to trade a player in order to help him get a ring and gave the example of the Clyde Drexler trade as a parallel to the Rockets situation. Then he went on to make a little uncalled for remark about not being surprised that I can't understand this.

-- I would actually be thankful if someone could tell Clutch I am NOT one of the "troublemakers" he needs to pick as a target. --

I made the point that Clutch's example does not make sense since Clyde WANTED to be traded whereas Hakeem has repeatedly stated that he does NOT want to be traded and he even indicated he would retire. This happened this summer.

Another difference, by the way, is that Clyde was also in a different situation in comparison to Hakeem because Hakeem already has two rings.

If you, Clutch, were referring to Barkley, the difference remains that the player has not stated that he wants to be traded. It's more comparable in Barkley's case. However, Barkley has made negative remarks about Iverson before and I don't see how Philly has more of a chance to get a ring in the current situation than the Rockets.

A sidenote: Is it very common that e-mails politely asking to stop the personal picking on persons just remain unanswered and instead it just continues?

[This message has been edited by GermanRocket (edited November 23, 1999).]

[Caveman]

German:
Why are you picking on me again?


------------------
Rockets' biggest problem is not player talent levels, it is the coach's ineptitude.

[heypartner]

Tod...

Hakeem not a leader? You must be vocal in the shower to be a leader. jeeze. He has been the center of our chemistry since Rudy took over. Don't bother with that. Just reveals you as not being worth talking too again. Your Barkley/Francis remark wreaks of unsubstantiated rumor.

For everyone else:
Put your fantasy basketball stats aside--
No one has convinced me the team is better by trading intangibles and the organization's classy history, for psuedo stars that championship teams are willing to dump. Like that will help longterm chemistry of this team.

Besides...what is this thread about anyhow when we clearly have taken drastic steps to rebuild. We have the #2 pick and the best PG in the draft. We have a man who with work and better fundamentals can be one of the top 5 dominating centers in the league. We have a true small forward better than Horry ever was (except when Horry wants to play Defense), we have two very active shooting guards....we have Massenburg who has shown me a skilled turnaround jumper and arguably fills Harrington's shoes.

That is a strong nucleus from which to grow. Complementing that nucleus can be down with roll players and your occassional big free agent. We simply are not at a point of franchise desparation here that the Bulls are at. The players that come from trading your franchise leaders must be measured against how it effects longterm team chemistry. We already have a nucleus that this thread is saying we don't have. But nucleus's means nothing if the franchise does not pass leadership of the team down.

[popeye]

Couple of things,again:

1. The concept that the fourth quarter is being blown because of Hakeem's poor leadership is utter nonesense. For most of the reasons mentioned here over the last several weeks including: rookie PG, unsettled rosters, turnovers, individual focus, scoring versus shooting and poor Free Throws. All of this points to execution on the court by professional players paid to walk the walk.

2. Just to put all of this in perspective.In 1980-81 we went 40-42 with SEVERAL eight runs of losing. The Rockets with both a veteran and youngster blend led by the aging Moses Malone went to the finals. We lost to the Celtics, a team with an equal quantity of veterans and kids led by Larry Bird, in a memorable hard fought series that ended at 4-2 for Boston. We were the 6th seed out of six places in the West. We remained the lowest seed throughout the playoffs.

Despite the increasing calls for a change for change sake, the 1980-81 Rockets only made a couple of (almost predictable) roster changes, but the meat of the team remained. That single year's experience, to most sports historians, made the Rockets a viable and respected contender in the "new era" of basketball (considered to be 1980 to present). Although they never won that year and only came close a couple of times until 1985-86 championship run, that 1980-81 year was considered a very successful franchise year. Remember we are talking about a 40-42 season! <center>Sometimes success is measured by competitive participation and not rings.</center>

[This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]

[Scarface]

If we could get Bender by all means do it the kid is awesome, Harrington I am not too high on because I have seen him play and I see him as being a Antwoine Jammison type player. If we could aquire Bender somehow I am all for it do not forget this was the number 5 pick in the draft and if Cuttino, Mack, Drew, Williams will do it DO IT. Isn't it funny how these young kids that come straight to the NBA are almost always better than if they were to play in college, I think not, by skiping college these players are molded toward the NBA game and not made into college phenoms like Elton Brand, Antwoin Jammison, Benniot Benjamin and so on and so on. Get this kid anyway you can becuase he will be something once he gets his chance next year on the year after.



------------------
"We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day

[thacabbage]

Popeye:

We'll just have to let the Barkley debate rest until another time. I don't want to bore everyone else on the BBS by dragging it on.

Anyways, I think Miller would be in the same boat as Richmond. Reggie has had a good start to the season, but I wouldn't want to trade anything of value for him. He is old, in the middle of a lengthy contract dispute, has proved all the critics correct that he is anything BUT a leader, and worst of all...he is painfully one dimensional. I think they are talking to the Bulls about a Jackson-Kukoc swap...hmmm. I think Jalen Rose is out of reach as he is clearly their best player right now, and more importantly, the only guy on that roster who can consistently create his own shot.

What do you say about perhaps pursuing Best? I know that Toronto has interest in him. Maybe Best-Croshere-Bender(?)-salary cap throwins for Barkley-Mack-Drew(?). That would provide Indiana with the low-post threat they have never had to compliment Reggie's outside game. Even with the Davises' they had always been a weak rebounding team, and Charles could probably shore that up. The Pacers need to be focused on beating the Knicks right now, and with their depleted frontline, they could do that with Charles. Also, the Pacers have no real leader right now, so Charles' ego would certainly be welcome. [that's just to sugarcoat the whole deal http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif]

Then package any combination of TMass, Mobley, Rogers, and Best to Toronto for McGrady. What are your thoughts on that?

[GermanRocket]

I'd like McGrady, but why would you want Best...I don't think he would be of any help, neither now nor in the future. We should have made more of an effort to get a guy like Terry Porter or Derek Harper. If there is still even the slightest chance to get Derek Harper, let's try it. Are they even considering it? And does anyone have any insight as far as the Sam Mack situation is concerned? I don't really think it's very classy how this situation has been handled. I am very surprised the guy hasn't signed anywhere yet.

[thacabbage]

German Rocket:

I'd like McGrady, but why would you want Best...I don't think he would be of any help, neither now nor in the future. We should have made more of an effort to get a guy like Terry Porter or Derek Harper. If there is still even the slightest chance to get Derek Harper, let's try it. Are they even considering it? And does anyone have any insight as far as the Sam Mack situation is concerned? I don't really think it's very classy how this situation has been handled. I am very surprised the guy hasn't signed anywhere yet.

*We wouldn't keep Best. We would use him to get McGrady.

*What good is Derek Harper going to do when we are clearly rebuilding?

*Sam Mack hasn't signed anywhere for one simple reason. Houston can pay him more than anyone else and I think we are just looking for the best deal possible. What is the point of hurriedly signing Sam Mack? Where will that get us? It's better to wait it out, and try to include him in a package for some young talent.

[GermanRocket]

Ok, I understand the Best thing now. About the rebuilding, let's wait. If it's clear that we have no chance of making the playoffs, we can still see if trades are necessary. Until then, I don't think it makes sense to take us out of the hunt ourselves by trading for a player who will help us less this season than the player we're giving up.

[GermanRocket]

Wow, after more than 150 posts, I tried posting in bold letters for the first time...

Well, from what you are saying, and I agree that this is the only way it makes sense, there must be an agreement between the Rockets and Mack that they will sign and trade him. Anything else could not explain the current situation with him not complaining, but not signing anywhere else either.

[CaucasionSensation]

I am tired of watching Dream and Chuck play and although I love Chuck, I think we could get someone, or some somebody for him. Hakeem's not going anywhere. I hope the guy retires after this year, and we can go ahead and begin rebuilding. Grabbing draft picks and attracting free agents.

Scarface - I'd love to get Bender. Two exceptions to your rule on the high school phenoms are these. Korleon Young, Rashard Lewis. I think Rashard has ability, but is the guy of the bunch, who should have definantly gone to college. I'm not sure where Young is, maybe Europe.

[GermanRocket]

Another sad exception is Leon Smith in Dallas. I think guys like Garnett and Kobe are the exception, it's more common the other way around, it's just that the high school guys who fail don't get all the attention like KG and Kobe.

[CaucasionSensation]

Good point, German. Leon is a very sad story. Reminiscent to some degree of Dimitrius Underwood in the NFL. I still think Lewis would have benfited greatly if he had gone to college.

[Sleepy]

Hey guys trading Charles is not possible. Something in the rules that he cannot be traded. CD was on 610 last week and said that is out of the question and they are not able to if wanted b/c of some rule.
Trading Dream. The chance was then we are stuck NOW.

[popeye]

RH Cab:

Yeah, but they sure like Croshere up there. BTW you would have to think that the Hughes to Toronto talks,which was HOT,has probably cooled considerably as Larry Brown is left without Iverson with his navicular fracture for 3-6 weeks.

The problems with all that player movement Pacers/Rockets/Toronto is that McGrady has such a low salary that you would have to be very careful. We would lose probably K.Thomas,Drew and Mobes (due to their relative low end salary and perceived upside) along with someone substantial. That means Cato, Barkley, or a Massenburg/Rogers Combo including the above three.

Also I have always liked the idea of Shandon/Francis/Mobes/McGrady combos. I'd hate to see that die.

We also would be forced to take someone with a heavy contract from the Pacers to match Barkley or Hakeem's meaty salary.

Here is something only my warped brain could think of ... Smits and Croshere, for Hakeem (with Hakeem's blessing of course)... we sit Smits down for sixty days then he retires due to injury, and we have Croshere and a Health/Career-ending exception (outside the cap, transferrable and optional to use all or portion of full amount) money.

We buy and or buy/trade for any available including McGrady around all-star break. I wouldn't be surprised if New York makes a move to unleash the hounds and trade talk one of the Houston/Camby/Sprewell links. Sign him immediately to a multi year with his transferred bird rights. Again outside the cap exception.

Sam Mack to a sign and trade with Detroit for Harper.

Trade Charles/Drew/K.Thomas to LA for Rice. Phil would do that in a New York Minute.

We zone home to the end of the season schedule with a low but salvagable run. Then go to the playoff dance with:

Cato/Massenburg/T.Hamilton
Croshere/Carlos/Bullard
McGrady/Rice/Williams
Anderson/Mobley
Francis/Harper

<center>Pinch me I truly am dreaming. I know. See I told you it was wacky!</center>

Tired Dwarf

That "rule" they referred to has got to be the sixty day rule. Or, Charles has a "no trade" clause without permission and he has refused to excercise the trade. No other rule I can think of ... I wish I could have heard the question.


[This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]

[GermanRocket]

Popeye, I know you are just thinking about theoretically possible scenarios here and as I understand it, this is not what you really want? To tell you the truth, I don't think this lineup is better - not now, not in the future - than what we have right now. Not even close...we'd have the backup PG we need, the SG would be the same, the SF would definitely be much better, but the PF and C would be SO much worse.

[This message has been edited by GermanRocket (edited November 23, 1999).]

[CBrownFanClub]

Sorry kids, its about chemistry and talent, not just talent. Look at Scottie Pippen - dude is a stable, team leader in Portland right now. He was an ass-biting mosquito when he was here. We got enough talent, we need to figure it out with what we got. It is not getting any better than this. You can sit around all day and change the parts, but at some point, you will need to work with the parts you have a figure out how the car is going to run properly. Championship teams do not develop out of assembling supergroups.

By the way, Clutch, the takes on loyalty to Hakeem having anything to do with the Arena vote are kinda wack, my good man. . .but thats a new thread. forget it, i am going to get fired for spending too much time on this BBS.

I tell ya when loyalty went out the window, it was when they traded Chucky Brown.

CBrownFanClub

[GermanRocket]

Right on, Chucky.

[sir scarvajal]

In my view trading Barkley to the East could be possible. Because that conference is so weak, he could make the difference between an also ran and a real contender for the conference title (even if Chuck leaves this year, that is a nice boost to a disappointing franchise). He could be the difference between Miami, NY, Indiana, Milw, Toronto or Phily making it to the finals or not (maybe even Charlotte and Detroit too). None of those teams by any stretch of the imagination has a PF with the combination of rebounding and offensive prowess as Barkley. Come to think of it, with the exception of Miami, this principle is also true for a Dream trade. I guess just about all the dominant big guys are in the West, which should make our 2 old guys extremely marketable to teams that think they have a chance for the east title right now, and can't afford to pass up the opportunity.

In the West, except for the Lakers, all the very good teams have outstanding PFs. The only exception is Minnesota, though KJ could be considered a great PF and Smith is OK, but I don't see them breaking up the youth movement. Dream could make more sense from the other teams perspective (he could put Minn, Sac and ugh, Utah, in the running for a title this year), but I just don't see that happening.

[CaucasionSensation]

Popeye, good luck on bringing Rice off the bench. This guy is capable of being unhappy starting. He'd want out fast.

[Air Francis]

I would not send Barkley to the Lakers. If he did help them win a Championship, then the Lakers would have a lot of confidence and that's exactly what we don't need.

Besides, has anyone said that the Lakers are interested in Barkley? They have enough problems with egos and players getting shots.

Finally, who do the Lakers have that we would want? We don't need another weak point guard with a long contract.

[popeye]

German Rocket

As you said I do not endorse some of this,I am frankly quite happy with the progress so far,honestly.

Cabbage and I and a few others sometimes bait one another with a plausable and somewhat realistic (this one stretches reality a bit,LOL) excercise through seperate correspondence via email. We have just projected that here. So ...

Agreed in part. However ...

1.This deal unleashes a sizable salary in Hakeem. If Hakeem retires next year or plays,we still get stuck with a hefty salary figure to apply to the cap. It doesn't disappear because he retires. It obviousily stays if he stays. Do you think the present system will be anymore beneficial to Hakeem's game next year.

2. Our inside-out game is only as effective as (a)our outside shot (b) our slashing to the open middle. We have not got these now. No outside shot as a threat. Full timers causing an outside threat would be Rice, McGrady, Francis, and spotter Mobes, sounds better than(what we have now,in) Drew and Bullard. Two guys who have limited PT. Hakeem and Charles's game (I am more convinced they are effective right now, than most do here) still clog up the middle. Their multi dimensional teammates cannot use their talents. McGrady is poetry in motion in a slash and burn run. Francis at the one or two, Anderson and Mobes ... man, their games would flourish.

3.Rice's salary would be clear next year. McGrady's salary would be clear next year. In combination with some others and Hakeem's salary savings we would have approx. $12.5 to $13.8M in usable cap (an estimate, don't hold me to it). PLUS we retain the Bird Options to purchase McGrady and Rice OUTSIDE the cap if we want, or sign and trade that as an option on McGrady's contract(unlikely). PLUS, we have the unused portion of the Smit's exception. Want to talk about Duncan, Hill or anyone else out there,next summer? We haven't got a prayer as it stands right now.

4.It forces the Rockets to retool their thinking along with the team. It will also allow the " great potentials" to play a faster upscale game. Whether they,or the coaches want that to happen or not. Like the guy said when he was told the dam broke and everything was flooding. "Oh no! I am not ready for that!" Ya'll ain't got a chance. Either run or get caught in the stampede.

5. I am not as convinced that this would be as good for Hakeem as it is for the Rockets. But in Barkley's case, we would both win if he went somewhere.

Sir Scar

Agree Barkley would be more benefit in the East,but lets face it the ring will come out of the West this year. BTW: Oakley in Toronto and PJ Brown in Miami both have the PF duties, and I would trade Charles for them hands down right now.

Pale Rider

Rice would robably platoon with any number oif guys in the 2/3 position. hell, he will be regulated back to the bench when "just call me" Kobe come sback anyway.

AeroFrancisco

What point guard are you talking about? Rice plays the two and occasionally the three. rarely the one.

What heavy contract? Rice's contract is up at the end of this season.


Cheers.





[This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]

[fatty fat fat]

Why do I have to be the only voice of reason? Hakeem said this was the most talented team he has ever played on! When has Hakeem ever said something that straightforward in his life?

We need nothing more than a couple of minor supporting players and a lot more chemistry.

After the way this season has started, do you really think that Rudy is going to make another huge change midseason, and hope that solves everything and doesn't blow up in his face? Sorry, guys. It ain't gonna happen.

Lets face it. Listen to Hakeem. This is the best Rockets team that we have ever put on the floor. We are going to be absolutely unstoppable once Williams and Drew get their sealegs. You heard it here first guys. You are all way too uptight. Relax, this team will be one of the great ones, I promise.

And Costas, you suck!

------------------
"I would like to thank... everyone... for their contriboootions" Hakeem accepting his MVP award at the 1999-2000 NBA Finals.

[GermanRocket]

Even I as one of the eternal optimists on this site wouldn't dare to say that this is the best Rockets team ever...but I also think that some people are just way to pessimistic and that we do not need to give up on the season after not even 15 % of the games have been played. No trades involving Hakeem, Charles, Francis should be done, and Mobley and Cato/Anderson (who couldn't be traded yet anyway) should be considered untouchables, too. However, I would love to trade Walt Williams and Bryce Drew for ANYTHING...especially a veteran backup pg.

[heypartner]

Clutch

It is your thread. But, I don't understand picking apart someone's response one remark at a time.

Let me repeat the crux of my comments:
You don't value team chemistry like I do...that's the difference between our views. Team chemistry must be nurtured over years, and become synomous with the franchise. It really is the only thing the franchise head office can affect. X and Os and stats that lead to coach selections and trades are fine...but they must always be weighed against maintaining franchise identity and team chemistry.

Another intangible you wholesale trade mongers..high lottery pick fantasizers fail to consider is the fan and how they turn on players or embrace them. Fans can destroy a players psyche. Right now, the younsters are taking little heat because our leaders are still here.

As for the Portland remark...if they don't win this year, they haven't grown one iato. They were handed a gift from the sky (Pippen), and now must win or it could actually set back the team chemistry. My feeling is: if they have a ring in the cards, they were going to do it w/o the Pippen trade.

[Lynus302]

I sure as hell hope we fire/move-up-to-the-front-office RudyT before Trading Dream or Charles. I'm not worried yet, though. True, we suck right now, but I have seen nothing but improvement.

The one thing I'm afraid of is if we trade Dream, the Rockets and the NBA in general are GONE from Houston.

------------------
Proud Cheerleader 'til we move to New Orleans
302

[DamonP]

Shut up German Rocket! We've heard you enough on the matter!!! please,you are making a great and interesting post very uninteresting. How many times do you have to make reference to Clutch's one smart remarkk without a response??? I thuoght it was uncalled for at first but now I think I see what he is getting at. all he said was he wasn't surprised and if he knows you to react like this I would not be either. As for the first post by clutch I dont agree. It raises a tough question for me when it comes to akeem and I do not want to see him go. I dont think I cant explain it but I cant see him go.

[sir scarvajal]

Popeye, I was thinking more in the vein of just getting there. I think most any Eastern franchise except perhaps Mia and NY would be thrilled to get that far, and it would be a big boon to any organization. Also, if I am NY or Mia, Chuck could be a difference maker for a year or 2 (talk him into 1 more year), and give them a better shot a the title (especially Mia who has great defense but needs the O). Also, I would trade him for Brown because he is younger, but not Oakley. I'd rather have Chuck for his last year than Oakley for his last 2-3. I looked over Miami's salaries, it would be hard to do a deal w/o Mash, Brown, Mourning or Hardaway involved (unless Marjley's is up there). I don't know how they get away with paying Thorpe and Witherspoon and Leanard only around 2 mil. each. As far as NY, maybe we could do something like Childs or Ward + Turkan + Thomas + #1 for Chuck. If Mia or NY got Chuck, with the defense they have everywhere else, they would have a much better chance at a title. Also, you never know, Duncan and Robinson or Smith and B.Grant can get injured in the finals like Magic and Scott (or was it Worthy), so you can win the title by default (like the Pistons in 89 I think).

Also, Hakeem may say he has the most talent around him he ever had, but he is forgeting he can no longer take 5-6 role players on his back and win a title. It is not like we went 6-6 (which wouldn't be good but be understandable). We went 2-10 and lost a fair number of games by a wide margin. Talent alone (w/o chemistry) should carry you over bad teams and allow you to win almost all of your home games. Just look a Portland, they have had injuries and working in 2 new starters plus new major subs, and they are like 16-1 since their changes. That is talent, not what we have. I don't like to admit it, but we just don't have the talent right now and have major holes in our line-up (like our starting 3). This modest talent + not having chemistry = 2-10.

[DamonP]

hey German Rocket just posted a long thread ripping Clutch again and when I posted a response he deleted it. guess he chickened out. now I have even more respect for what clutch said.

[GermanRocket]

What the §%&" do you mean, I chickened out. I deleted my post because I came to the conclusion that nobody cares if I am upset that Clutch is making uncalled for remarks. That's why I wrote him an e-mail about it the first time it started in the first place, to which he never responded. But since you feel the need to post twice just to refer to what I have said, let me repeat it really briefly. I think that, with all due respect, it's no good style by Clutch to first make a personal remark and then to not respond to the reaction to that remark, although that reaction was focused on the basketball question that was raised if the Drexler trade and the current Rockets situation are comparable. That's all.

[This message has been edited by GermanRocket (edited November 23, 1999).]

[Clutch]

DamonP --

I said it once and I'll say it again when it comes to GermanRocket: I'm not surprised.

He knows what he is doing. He makes character attacks then 5 minutes later edits his posts with "out of respect", and makes you look silly for responding. You should have seen the post above this one before it was edited. And I saw the deleted post -- thanks for the backup. Most people don't know the half of what he does. The "polite letter he sent me" -- what a farce. I'd go in to more detail but it just isn't important. He's just a coward into his rep and wants attention. Unbelievable he's posted 3 times off subject without response on the matter.

As for the Drexler analogy, I can't think of one that fits better. Hakeem said he didn't want to leave Houston. Yeah, and Rudy said he wasn't going to trade Pippen. He's clinging to that as if I'm saying we should trade Barkley and Hakeem kicking and screaming "No!", thus the Drexler case doesn't fit. Of course the hypothetical scenario would include Barkley and/or Dream wanting to play for a contender. That IS the whole point... I would expect them to want to win, and if it's a 9-29 team I don't know if that would happen on this club.

However, I think everyone understood that well... except GermanRocket.

heypartner --

"It is your thread. But, I don't understand picking apart someone's response one remark at a time."

Sorry, it's just how I chose to respond to your post -- point by point.

"Let me repeat the crux of my comments:
You don't value team chemistry like I do...that's the difference between our views. Team chemistry must be nurtured over years, and become synomous with the franchise."

Actually, I feel the same way you do, if not moreso. You just said team chemistry takes years to develop -- we don't have "years" when it comes to Hakeem and Charles. I love both players, it would pain me to see either go -- but if you love chemistry, lets get the young nucleus in here and start watching them grow.

CBrownFanClub --

"By the way, Clutch, the takes on loyalty to Hakeem having anything to do with the Arena vote are kinda wack, my good man"

Well, my good man, allow me to explain the "wack" version of events I came to. You may be right about it being wacked (seriously), but this is what I was thinking:

The Rockets chose to make a business decision and listened to offers for Hakeem. They got what they perceived as a good offer and it leaked to the Chronicle. Fans freaked. "What about loyalty!?" they screamed. Well, the Rockets were loyal and pulled the plug on the deal, at the expense of the future of the franchise. In essence, they listened to the fans, despite many national critics/media members saying you can't listen to the fans in making business decisions.

Meanwhile, Pippen is shipped, the Rockets' immediate title hopes apparently dashed and suddenly the referendum vote has failed.

This is a business. Fans can scream loyalty all they want, but in major numbers, there won't be loyal fans unless the team produces wins. That's the name of the game: winning. You know it's true. You and I and most (if not all) on this board it won't be the case with, but when Hakeem retires and the Rockets don't have much, a lot of those "loyalty! Keep Hakeem!" fans will be long gone. How many times did the arena ref fail in San Antonio? Suddenly they get the best player in the league and a championship and fans exponentially increase and voila! The arena vote passes.

I can't think of a more disloyal thing than what John McMullen did to Nolan Ryan back in 1988. Fans left the 'Stros in droves... but they brought in young buck Bagwell, built him around Biggio/Caminiti/etc. and fans returned.

So why is it such a bad thing to mutually agree to send Hakeem to a contender, give him a shot at another ring, give our young guys more playing time, improve our future and maybe even bring him back into the front office when his career is over?

Sometimes, fans don't know what they really want -- or better yet, they want it all -- and the Rockets need to treat this as it really is: A business.

Hey... GermanRocket, come on ... where's that "Right on, Clutch" post?

------------------
Clutch
Out to prove Scottie Pippen will apologize at gunpoint.
www.clutchcity.net (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[Azim da Dream]

Well, with 80+ posts in this thread, there's no point of me writing a long one that would probably just take up server space and be an echo of half the others.

Anyways, I would not want to trade either, for a variety of reasons several have already mentioned. The young guns needs some mentoring among several others. But if between the two legends, I would trade Chuck. Simply 'cause he's in his last year and ringless, his salary is slightly lower and therefore easier to trade, and far less attached to the city than Hakeem. However, I believe Dream would be a better fit for more teams, mainly due to a lack of depth at the center position around the league as well as the fact that his ego would not get in the way of a teams chemistry.

With that in mind, one team I did not see mentioned as a possible Barkley destination is Miami. They are a level below the power houses in the West and Chuck could easily bring them up to that level. While they are not as desperate at PF as the Lakers with Weatherspoon and Brown, a solid rebounder like Sir Charles would take a lot of pressure away from Zo. I always believe that Tim HARdaway and Chuck would be a good fit, but I'm a bit wary of Riley's opinion. Mashburn/Lenard could be the possible players that come our way.

Just an idea to throw around. Oops, looks like I did write a long post. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

Azim da Dream

------------------
"Change does not necessarily assure progress, but progress
undeniably requires change."
- Motto of the Houston Rockets

[thacabbage]

Clutch:

Actually, I feel the same way you do, if not moreso. You just said team chemistry takes years to develop -- we don't have "years" when it comes to Hakeem and Charles. I love both players, it would pain me to see either go -- but if you love chemistry, lets get the young nucleus in here and start watching them grow.

Hell yea, brother. THAT is what I am saying!


Popeye:

What about trying to create a situation like the one up in Detroit to try and attract Jalen Rose and Mo Taylor? I dont know, how much does the Maloney-Mclean-Augmon guaranteed $$ limit us?

[napster]

About the Charles to LA trade thing....I don't really think Charles is Phil Jackson's ideal PF...he wants more of a defensive minded PF, and don't forget the fight with Shaq. I find it hard to believe that the Rockets can get very much value for an old vet, who has already stated that he will retire this year (this time it looks like he actually will). He has game, but he earns too much money for something with a lot of value to be returned in exchange, you can't expect to get a rising superstar for a fading vet....

I'm not really sure about Hakeem....but I have a feeling both aren't going to be traded, and correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Hakeem stated that he will retire if he was traded? I trust his word, and that will diminish his value greatly.


[This message has been edited by napster (edited November 23, 1999).]

[thedreamshake99]

A few notes.

1. Tod is correct, regardless of the mindless "You aint a real fan" by the likes of Heypardner. Hakeem was all for going to Canada, a country where he has a high degree of love for. He wanted to milk another year out of the Raptors, which would of made it a 3 year right around 42 million deal. The Raptors ran away, Press got wind, Hakeem played the "Whats going on, Ill retire" role, Rudy pulled the plug on a deal that the Raptors were allready dumping.

2. What loyalty to players are you guys referring to. The rox have a good record with one free agent, Charles Barkley and nothing good to be said by any other ex Rocket players who showed commitment to the team. And a poor one with
Mario Elie
Scotty Pippen
Kevin Willis
Chucky Brown
Sam Cassell
Eldridge Recasner

Not to mention Sam Mack, and 10 games into the Season Shanon Anderson's agent is allready claiming what a mistake it was to come to Houston.

3. Clutch is absolutely correct in asking what the difference in 35 or 12 wins are. Right on the money with the whos the true fan analogy Clutch. Why o why would you be satisfied with a mediocre season with nothing to show for it over the chance on getting your young guys some good playing time. Who was it that was saying about Cato getting time. What freaking games are they watching. Cato's game time is falling south for the winter, Anderson doesn't know what a fourth quarter is, Francis is replaced by the all mighty Drew in the fourth, while Rodgers, and Cato rot after the second period.

[Achebe]

could someone document the "dream asked for an extra year" rumor... i've heard it quite a bit, but i didn't find out about the trade until the chronicle started talking about it this past summer, and at that time, dream seemed rather peeved.

i know that there have been times before where dream a) either asked for a trade (pre championships) or b) complimented vancouver's beauty and suggested that he wouldn't mind retiring there; but this past summer i thought that he spoke from the heart when he gave the big analogy of the 'bookcases of his career' being in houston, and how he couldn't imagine it any other way...

as far as charles, i'm pretty confident that i can stretch my love to include whatever championship team he would be traded to http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif. i disagree that were he to go east that it would be a waste b/c the title would 'definitely come out of the west'... remember how we were exhausted in the jazz wcf (wcf - the ol' double meaning when it comes to anything to do w/ the wailman 3:16), the west is loaded, and it will probably be to the west's detriment if teams have to play 7 game series to get to the finals...

i want to see dream succeed, charles (in particular succeed) and this team succeed... hopefully, though, they can all do it together.

one note (sorry if it's already been made in this monster), but if dream is traded, then charles HAS to be traded b/c most offers would give the rockets a snowballs' chance as far as this year's opportunities... vice a versa isn't necessarily so, obviously, since dream's more nostalgic than hungry...

oh yeah, somebody pretty please let me know where the 'dream asked for an extra year' thing came from.

[This message has been edited by Achebe (edited November 23, 1999).]

[popeye]

Cab:

Your objection is noted. Granted you have valid points.

Except:
1. Charles would be going as a "teacher" a "facilitator". A role he likes, even if he doesn't display it. Anyone who has ever met or got to know him knows he is a smooth over the rough guy. Contrary to poular believe he wants everyone to like him. he would do anything to play that role. He would be seen as an asset. And that is half the battle.
2.Iverson and Barkley would be long lost buddies before the media even caught wind of it. A Brown/Iverson/Calipari/Barkley group hug would be done long before anyone was the wiser.

Clutch:

Same as in LA. He would have all that Shaq stuff ironed out long before any announcement. As far as Pippen is concerned, I keep hearing that the Two Jerrys are not going to let Phil get his way with having the Pimp. That whole Pippen to LA thing may be a non issue.

Other Things:

I am amazed that no one has shot down my Pacer suggestion. Actually Smits will probably retire around Christmas. You heard it here. They need a big man presence. They seriousily need a leader on that team. Bird would kill to have someone of Hakeems stature (literally and figuratively) on the court.(As an added incentive, the Pacers are trying to get a career ending injury exception for Smits, if he doesn't pan out this first half of the season and retires prematurely. The league has exceptions for that type of thing. Assuredly Smits will be gone. Pacer's will get a portion of his salary. They will be shopping.)

[Francis3]

Hey why is Smits going to be gone?

[popeye]

Watson's Buddy in the Houndstooth Tweed:

Are you suggesting we could get PJ Brown for Barkley? Cause where do I sign. Riley would never do that.

Sprewell would never be a posibility for Charles. Hakeem. Now that may be possible. But as everyone pointed out ... there is serious doubt that anyone would pull that trigger again.

Hakeem has to be wanting out. My guess is he dances with who brought him. He stays put.

Star-Studded-Rookie-Trey:

Smits has a serious problem with his feet. His pain is almost constant. The spaces between his metatarsals (foot bones) gets inflammed and swollen during every game. The swelling cause even more msialignment and increased problems with moblity. He contemplated retiring before the start of the season.


[This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]

[University Blue]

I don't think Houston needs to trade Barkley or Olajuwon. The Rockets are one or two players from solidifying the line-up.

Centers: Olajuwon and E. Johnson (Milwaukee) or McIllvaine (NJ)
PF: Cato and Barkley
SF: Rogers and Bullard
SG: Anderson and Drew
PG: Francis and Alexander (Denver)

Trade Value: Mack, Massenbury, Mobley, and Williams

It wouldn't take much to trade for E. Johnson, McIllvaine, or Alexander. Johnson and|or McIllvaine would provide interior defense and Alexander can be the backup PG.

[bballfanatic]

I'm disappointed that Clutch would post this.

Well call it loyalty but I am with Pole, HeyPartner, Fattyfatfat and GermanRocket.

You don't trade these two guys. Trading them WILL NOT show respect for them. Barkley maybe if he wanted it - just for the chance of a ring but I think the suggestion might turn his stomach more than not getting the ring.

I like the earlier post of letting these young guys learn from two of the best. And franchise players like Hakeem deserve the respect of retiring with their original team if they so desire. That's not loyalty, that is an organization having some class.

I think it is shortsighted to panic and want to "trade, trade, trade". I would agree to a smaller trade for a defensive player, either backup or starter, but if you take away Dream and Chuck then we really do have a lottery team this year. The Rockets have always tried to win as their first objective. I don't think trading our best players besides Steve Francis in order to get a lottery pick would set well with this organization.

Finally, I don't think the Rockets have given up on the season yet, so why should we. I haven't even though I thought we were going to be a very good team this year. I think we are close to being pretty good. Upsets happen.

I would agree with a "smaller" trade (I'm not that knowledgeable so don't ask me for a specific trade) for a defensive player or an energy player like Cliff Robinson or Cedric Ceballos. If Kelvin Cato will step up and show some guts by staying in the game, I don't think we need any trade. BUT GET DEREK HARPER!

NO TRADE FOR HAKEEM OR CHUCK.

[No Worries]

No and No.

The Rocks should only trade Big Sexy if that is his wish. I would be very surprised if after giving him $9 M that BS would demand a trade.

Of course from a season ticket holder prespective, I think either trade would be throwing in the towel for the season and an attempt to get the top lottery slot.

BTW, what this team really needs is more new players who will need to be integrated into the team. It will be just like starting the season over and just when the Rocks are playing better ball. Makes plenty of sense to me http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

[thacabbage]

Sherlock:

Good points, BUT.

I don't know if Anderson or Cat are going to cut it at shooting guard. The idea of Chuck to Philly for Hughes and filler would be good, Indiana for Bender or Harrington, Croshere and filler, New York for Camby or Sprewell and filler, Miami for Outlaw or Brown and filler, LA for Rice and filler ... all these could fill missing holes for us and rebuild for the future.

None of us here know exactly what the market for a Charles Barkley would be like, but I am pretty confident that we wouldn't be able to reel in half that much artillery for the Chuckster. No team is willing to give star quality (Hughes, Camby, Sprewell, Rice, Brown) value for Charles. What I had in mind is more along the lines of decent role players, maybe Fisher and Horry from LA, perhaps any combination of Lynch and perhaps Snow for Philly, Kurt Thomas, Childs, and draft pick considerations from the Knicks. I think Harrington or Bender though, would be pretty realistic from the Pacers. If a Barkley deal were to go down, don't expect any big names to be included. I would expect more along the lines of decent bench-to average starter quality guys.

Popeye

If that is so, and Charles really does love the "teacher" role, why doesn't he move out of the way and serve it on this team? I just think his imposing nature will get the best of him and he will try to do too much for the team, while in fact he will be hurting them.

Clutch

I think that the most probable destination for Barkley would be Indiana. I feel so, because they have one of the deepest benches in the NBA and can offer the type of players that we need. Guys along the lines of Bender of maybe even Harrington if they want Barkley bad enough. I think LA certainly would be interested, but what could they offer? Perhaps Fisher and Horry, but that in no way helps us.

[tod the bod]

The Rockets should try to trade both of these players to contenders. I think that trading Barkley to a contender will be most fair to Barkley since he has played his heart out for the team and he only came to Houston, in the first place, to play for a contender -- which the Rockets no longer are.

I would trade Hakeem because I think that we would get the most trade value for Hakeem. Simply put, while he is old, and his skills have deteriorated, he is still one of the best centers in the game (it just shows you how bad the current crop of NBA centers is), he can dominate a game on occassion, and who knows, if he is playing for a contender, he may just find that spark once again.

If the Rockets trade these players we should either get valuable players back in return, or we should get players whose contracts are up at the end of the year so that we can free up salary cap room at the end of the season.

One other thing. Trading Barkley and especially Olajuwon should be done as quickly as possible. A player like Olajuwon doesn't just fit into a team. A team will have to make major readjustments to its style of play to accomodate a player like Olajuwon. Thus, if the Rockets are going to trade Olajuwon, it should be done in the next month.

The problem with trading either of these players is that there are not too many teams who are in competition for a championship and who have a glaring need at either the center or power forward positions.

Some thoughts:

Phoenix: Olajuwon for Gugliotta. I would also be interested in Rex Chapman -- an outside shooter who can actually hit a shot.

Lakers: Trading Barkley to LA has been hyped to death. I just don't see it considering the relationship between Barkley and Shaq. But I would do the trade for Glen Rice whose contract is up at the end of the year.

Minnesota: Olajuwon for Joe Smith. Such a deal would require that the Rockets trade Barkley as well. (see lakers above). It would be interesting, however, to see a Rocket team with a starting lineup of Cato, Smith, Rice, Anderson, and Francis.

Milwaukee: Olajuwon or Barkley for Tractor Traylor. I would also be interested in Tim Thomas.

Seattle: Olajuwon and Barkley for Vin Baker and whatever is necessary to put the rest of the deal together.

Yeah. These deals will probably never happen. But what the hell.

[Achebe]

bballfanatic: although I understand your intentions as far as loyalty goes, i believe you've missed the point... the situation is a hypothetical one for the future, say 20-25 games from now (however many are allowed actually before the trade deadline) try to get yourself in that mindset (having lost a ton) and reevaluate the scenario...

wins/losses always affect/distort perspective... e.g. had rider scored 32 points for us in a few games (as he did for the hawks tonight) marketing as well as a few wins would change people's impressions of his being a 'cancer'

in that light, (and in the graces of the players) the trades become a possibility...

[SlamN]

Trade Barkley...this may be his last year and I would like for him to have a shot at a ring. The Rockets won't be any help here so trade him to the Bucks (for Traylor) or Lakers (for picks). Both teams are in need of a PF and have a strong roster. Traylor isn't real involved in the rotation in Milwaukee but has potential. Bark is only going to be around one more year so you don't have to worry too much about trading within the conference or division.

[thacabbage]

Tod: I would love to get either Joe Smith or Tim Thomas. Two rangy, young athletic big men to fill out our lineup. If Olajuwon did indeed request a trade, and we had to trade him, either of these two deals would be ideal. Pretty realistic too, seeing that they are not stars, but quality players.

In fact, I think that is a really good idea. Clutch, throw Tod's idea into the jar along with Popeye's Pacer's possibility.

Barkley for Tim Thomas or Joe Smith



[This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited November 23, 1999).]

[SamCassell]

Like alot of people, I really doubt that Dream goes anywhere - the fiasco over the summer took care of that possibility, and he will remain a Rocket until he retires. Barkley on the other hand is very deal-able. Don't forget he is a tremendous rebounder, a fierce competitor, a quality passer and a low-post scorer, there are plenty of teams who would trade for him. But why would Chuck want a trade for this year, unless he was going to a team with a legit title shot (those he includes in his annual "lists" of teams to beat, always including his own). To me that limits the choices to LA, SA, Portland, or Miami.

Let me touch for a second on your "Dream to Indiana" thing, though, Popeye. Just player-wise, since it would be impossible from a PR standpoint. Who would thePacers give us, without seriously opening up other weaknesses? Reggie is untouchable. I doubt they give up on Harrington, a future star. Bender is hurt. Unless we could get a guy like Rose, we're limited to aging stars like Dale Davis, Mark Jackson, Sam Perkins, or Chris Mullen. Would you trade Dream for, say, Davis, Perkins, and Best (with Indiana's cap relief from Smits working out the cap problems)? I would rather wait the 18 months until Hakeem retires, and get the cap room then, instead of making a trade for aging vets (who would probably gripe about heading out to a rebuilding team).

[bballfanatic]

Man, my post didn't make it on the board and it was really long. Hmmm, accident?

I agree with Pole, HeyPartner, Fattyfatfat, and GermanRocket.

My bottom line is you don't trade these guys. Let the young guys learn from two of the best. Hakeem has made it clear he doesn't want to be traded - franchise players should be given the respect of retiring with their original team. Call it loyalty if you want, I call it class.

I have said before somewhere I would trade Chuck ONLY IF HE WANTED IT to have a chance at a ring. I would have no grudge against him for that. I want him to have a ring. Yes, that is pure sentimentality.

Geez, had a lot more to say before. Oh well.

Oh yeah, my only moves at this point are get DEREK HARPER and maybe SAM MACK. Or else a smaller trade (Don't ask me who cus I don't know) for a defensive player or an energy player like Cliff Robinson or Cedric Ceballos. If Kelvin Cato would step up, he and Derek Harper would solve some problems, and we are close to being a good team in my opinion. We'll see.

[bballfanatic]

No you do not trade either.

Chuck only if he wants to go to a team with a chance of a title.

Dream has stated he does not want to be traded - let's respect that as he deserves it and would be the class thing to do.

I'm with Pole, HeyPartner, Fattyfatfat and GermanRocket on this one.

[fatty fat fat]

Sorry to respond so late to this, but the team has shown loyalty to many of its players, TDS. My wife knew Mario Elie pretty well, and the last season he was with us, he continually talked about how this (the '97-'98) year was for show, and he was waiting for the big payday from a new team when he became a free agent. Said he wanted to go play for Miami, but would listen to any offer. So what happened? He had his worst season as a Rocket, and didn't care about the team at all. What kind of loyalty do you show a player who doesn't want to play for you anymore?

That is the Dead honest truth.

------------------
"I would like to thank... everyone... for their contriboootions" Hakeem accepting his MVP award at the 1999-2000 NBA Finals.

[Achebe]

fatty fat fat:

thanks for the info...
on a side note (to the cb bashers) barkley never said anything of note publicly about elie while he was on the team... afterwards, though, in an si article, he said that the previous year wasn't fun for him b/c elie and drexler were more concerned w/ their contracts than their games... this was later evidenced by the superbowl proclamation where elie suddenly found himself valuable to a team down the street.

[CBrownFanClub]

Clutch et al:

A few thoughts from a believer in the loyalty motif. . .

1. Rudy should not have declined the trade Hakeem out of loyalty to the fans; he should have declined the Toronto trade out of loyalty to Hakeem. When a player takes you from medium-to-low league prestige (comparable to the Hawks or something) and takes you to an elite-prestige team, you do not allow him to finish his career with a friggin Raptor jersey. This is about Hakeem and the franchise, the fans need have no more to do with it than an opinion poll which - contrary to Biff CLinton's persective - should not tell you what type of morals you have.

2. If you say "Rockets need to treat this as it really is: A business" why did everyone get their proverbial panties in a wad about "loyalty" and "what this team means to the community" when it failed? Thats not business - that's personal.

***Before I continue, let me make on thing clear: The Chucky Brown Fan Club endorsed/still endorses - somewhat reluctantly, b/c the Summit rules - the arena deal. For the selective readers out there, we are not arguing the deal should have failed. We are arguing that it failed for business reasons, not characterological, emotional or intellectual defects on behalf of citizens of Houston, TX.****

That being said, blanket references to "loyalty" - as if that arena vote was a barometer for the amount of integrity in Houston's smoggy air and that Les and Co. should act accordingly - is silly. It smacks of bitterness, frankly. "You did not give me my arena, so I am gonna have a tantrum and trade the thing that means the most to you." Two wrongs don't make a right. But if the Rockets' business organization (not basketball, thanks to Rudy) had not perfected their typically corporate recipe for "behave arrogantly, boast, expect trust, expect aything you want, and then and pout like babies when you get your wrist slapped" act long ago, that friggin arena would have passed. They blew it, not the city.

Rudy and Hakeem have been paying the public integrity/trust bills for the dubious business side of the organization - the people who brought you new, crappy uniforms after a championship year, crazy ticket prices, hugely expensive merchandise, a host of pissed-off charities and business owners, etc - since Les took over (it's not as bad a move, as, say, the Washington Bullets who have a GM and owner with bags of integrity but players who are losers. Which do you think their press goes. . .).

But the Rockets go overboard and it cost them. That's their fault, not Hakeems, and quite frankly, not ours either. Why take it out on him, acting irresponsibly because the arena vote failed?

Rudy should not always have to be such a "good" guy, and Hakeem should not have to the Ghandi of basketball for the Rockets to be respected.

Rudy and Dream and two rings still was not enough, the arena vote failed because the Rockets - as a local business - could not carry their own weight, no matter how much Rudy and Dream have tried to carry it.

So do not take out 'loyalty' frustrations on the only substantial remaining pillars of integrity. Les and Co should not - and to their credit, have not, thus far - break the mirror (arena vote) because they did not like what it reflected. You do not toss princples of a winner on and off the court - loyalty, respect and integrty to name but a few - out the window because you do not get what you want when you want it. Be the bigger man and do the right thing.

morally superior but what the hell is new http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif
Cbrownfanclub

[jscmedia]

TodBod, why such a snotty attack on the German ? His point is well taken. Hakeem still is making plays I don't expect from him. And many a center has played a solid role without being the go to guy. That said, Hakeem and Barkley are both definately trade bait if , IMO, this thing goes down hill further, i.e., as stated two weeks ago, 10-30, etc, near the break. House cleaning time.

[Axeman]

Trade Barkley.
Trade Barkley.
Trade Barkley.

To a team like Milwaukee or something that is a contender and thinks that Barkley is the missing link for them to get a ring.

Get a young player with lots of potential (doesn't have to be a star).

Get some draft picks (we all know teams that feel they are close to winning a ring will cough up picks in return for a "missing link".)

Then, sit back and watch as Barkley still doesn't get a ring and starts complaining about all his new teammates motivation or cell phones or something. Meanwhile, Steve Francis can work on his game without blabber mouth around whining at him all the time.

[CBrownFanClub]

If I bash anyone, its Charles, but I give him props on that cell-phone stuff. He's right. Score one for Barkley.

CBrownFanClub

[heypartner]

Clutch

What's up with the "freak" comment? Someone with administrator level control to a bbs, and the following that goes along with it, doesn't need to resort to that.

Are you having trouble enjoying your BBS with a 3-10 record? I think you should go read ChuckyBrown's thread about how "This is great time to be a Rocket's Fan" or something like that. Cheer up man. Let people disagree with you without calling them freaks.

to respond to your question:

You seemed to ignore the contradiction you posted, that you stated it takes "years" to develop chemistry. I agreed, but stated we don't have years with Barkley and Olajuwon. I'm awaiting your response to that.

When I say "years", I don't mean it has to be rebuilt. It can be passed on to the next nucleus. Chemistry is (as Rudy would say) about desire, heart, placing the team above individual accomplishments. That's what leaders pass on. My whole point is the desire, heart, and team focus exudes from Hakeem and Barkley. Hating to lose. Apparently, young players have to be taught that nowadays.

Think about it: if Reggie Lewis and Len Bias don't die, Boston gracefully moves into a new nucleus post-Bird, retaining their winning attitude--now they are stuck with the flakiness of Walker.

If Magic doesn't get AIDs, he stays ontop of his game and who knows what happens when they get Shaq in his 15-16th yrs, with Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell and Robert Horry...and possibly still van Exel.

Clutch....the intangibles that make-up chemistry get passed down through class organizations...once you lose them, it is hard to rebuild that.

As for talent...We are rebuilding. I'm not status quo. Neither is Rudy...they got Francis, Cato, Anderson, Williams, Massenburg to retool. Personally, I'm amazed at what they were able to achieve last summer.

Now, if we can just bring these guys up gracefully. I don't want any Marbury or Anfernee's on my team...no matter how well their fantasy stats look like.

Do you really not believe their could be a valid argument contrary to yours!!!

cheer up about the season...we are locked in...let's just hope for Cato to wake up and receive more playing time...there are many things I don't agree on with Rudy...but his ability to bring up young players and role players is without flaw!!! I must defer to his decisions on Cato.

[CBrownFanClub]

PS to Clutch: Ralph Sampson rules.

[thacabbage]

Clutch:

Do you think this thread could gradually creep up past the 200 reply milestone? I'll certainly do my part if we can shift off the loyalty issue and back onto the original topic (potential trades as the basis was on <u>PAGE 1</u>). Anyhow, props to you. Great topic.

------------------
"Museum officials outside of Houston have reported an ancient artifact identified as "Rudy's Postup Plays - 1994" stolen, as of November 2, 1999...officials urge residents to contact...

[CBrownFanClub]

I dont understand why everyone wants to shift back to original topics when we are just about to start talking about loyalty to Ralph Sampson. Come on, its just about to get good.

[thacabbage]

LOL. Chucky Brown is playing pretty good for the Spurs, BTW. Wouldn't mind having him back.

[heypartner]

Speaking of loyalty to Ralph Sampson....let's not forget about how we were able to attract the best coach in basketball away from the Celtics to coach him and instill the winnning attitude---Bill Fitch!

Where is that legend Al McGuire to back us up about this Ralph nostalgia.

Another test of Rockets loyalty:
Who was the local sportscaster that talked Ralph into accepting a free-shooting challenge on TV? one of the defining moments of his career.

[CBrownFanClub]

I dont know and I am pissed I dont know. I am gonna guess Dan Patrick, but I think that is wrong. I can only respond with another trivia question:

What was Ralph Sampson's 1985 biography titled?

[Clutch]

heypartner --

"What's up with the "freak" comment? Someone with administrator level control to a bbs, and the following that goes along with it, doesn't need to resort to that."

"stay-put freaks"? This is taboo? Could you not see the clear sarcasm and mockery that that was as you continuously labeled all of us "wholesale trade mongers" and "fantasy-league trade fantasizers"? Get off the high horse.

Unbelievable amount of insane comparisons followed by ... "Clutch....the intangibles that make-up chemistry get passed down through class organizations...once you lose them, it is hard to rebuild that."

I think your beliefs on team chemistry are, as CBrownFanClub would say, "wack". Team chemistry is built -- it's not passed over like a golden orb. It still takes talent, guys willing to win, roles being filled... it's not just Larry Bird passing some torch to the next generation. I didn't see that happen with Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars and the Pistons. No reason at all to think it would have happened with the Lakers -- Magic came back and tried that. The Celtics were falling downhill fast as their main guys retired -- not after.

Two words: Chicago Bulls.

And on the flip side... how did Sacramento get so good? Did Corliss Williamson finally shine through after a few years of stability with the organization, or did the drafting of Jason Williams, the signing of Vlade Divac and the acquisition of Chris Webber, all in the same season, have something to do with that?

You do know Miami was awful before they hired Pat Riley and acquired Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway, don't you?

Is Vancouver a "bad and classless organization" because they haven't clicked big time on the court? I tell you what -- I think they're headed in the right direction.

Lets not get out of control here -- the Rockets built chemistry the right way and added pieces as they went along. It started with Hakeem and Otis in 88-89. Hakeem was 27-28 at the time -- Otis 28. They had the luxury of adding pieces. They added Vernon Maxwell the next year (25-26 years old at the time). Kenny Smith the next year (26 years old at the time). Robert Horry two years later. They tried all kinds of combinations -- Mike Woodson, Walter Berry, Sleepy Floyd, Buck Johnson... it took them a good 6 years to find that right combo. It wasn't until 1992-93 they really started to kick tail, and it bounced over to the next season.

The Rockets had the luxury of putting good, solid, (and here's the key word for you) young pieces together. You can retain that if you continuously bring in young players or young veterans, but the Rockets went for gold. They started to bring in veterans to keep going for one more shot at the ring, as well as various role players and now they pay for that.

I'll admit it ... I want a shortcut to the bottom of the hill. I don't like the fact that the walk down is slow when I can see it and I know we can take the elevator quickly and begin the slow walk back up again.

Or we can sit down right now heypartner, do nothing, laugh at the bottom-feeders and get crushed by the ones on the top.

"Are you having trouble enjoying your BBS with a 3-10 record?"
"Do you really not believe their could be a valid argument contrary to yours!!!"

Now you're just attacking the messenger and getting personal. I think I am more than willing to admit when I am wrong, and I've been wrong several times in the past as others could point out. It's times like these I realize I'm dealing with a child and I apologize to everyone for responding a few times with this one.

Mulder --

"IMHO, trading Hakeem would give us more leverage, although it would kill me to see him in another uniform."

My sentiments to a tee. Thanks for the backing also ...

DREAMer --

I would keep the dog.

But what if you were in the security business?

CBrownFanClub --

Well put post, and I can see your point. I think there is one fundamental difference though in what I was assuming would be a good, mutual parting of ways for both parties and your vision of "breaking the mirror". Keep in mind -- I'm not saying and have never said do it tomorrow. My point is if this keeps up and by trading deadline time it is apparent the playoffs are not in the Rockets' future this season. I think all along I have thought, or better yet expected, that future Hall of Famers like Chuck and Dream would want to be on contending, winning teams to end their careers. If the Rockets can't turn this around and provide that, why not do the mutually beneficial thing? It's not like Hakeem Olajuwon won't forever be known as a Houston Rocket. I think several people have way too many negative connotations with the word "trade".

Think about this: What if Hakeem wanted a trade? Wouldn't your views actually be seen as selfish as opposed to loyal?

PS. Mario Elie could kick Chucky Brown's ass any day of the week. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Clutch
Out to prove Scottie Pippen will apologize at gunpoint.
www.clutchcity.net (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[CBrownFanClub]

Yeah, but Mario could kick, like anyone's ass because he is wicked pissed off all the time for no reason, which is awesome. Chucky, on the other hand, is wicked happy all the time for even less of a good reason, which is also awesome. Those guys are total pals in SA, by the way.

I'll compromise and trade Barkley to LA mid-season for Horry straight up. Just as a reminder that it was a bad trade to begin with and we are cutting our losses. Maybe some draft picks to Miami. I can part with Barkley, you could spin that one as 'good for everyone.' Trading Hakeem is too much like Shel Silverstein's "The Giving Tree" for me. Just sad and bloodsucking. Yuck. But Barkley, fine, let him orchestrate the trade. Maybe we could trade him to whoever is winning the last game of the Finals with 30 seconds left so he can get a ring. Which means we may end up with Pippen again. Again, yuck.

Hakeem may very well want a trade, but I believe he is no longer of sound mind - like Mario and Chucky - and I do not care what he wants. It is what I want him to want that matters to me. We know what he needs, and that is important. He will thank us later.

CBrownFanClub

[thacabbage]

Hakeem may very well want a trade, but I believe he is no longer of sound mind - like Mario and Chucky - and I do not care what he wants. It is what I want him to want that matters to me. We know what he needs, and that is important. He will thank us later.

OH MAN!! PUT THAT UP ON THE FRONT OF THIS SITE, LOLOLOLOL!!!

[heypartner]

CB--
I threw you off by saying "sportscaster". I meant sportswriter. local.

best out of 10 free throws. Sampson made 7. ..not enough of course.

[CBrownFanClub]

Christmas. . . Blinebury? I give up.

[Plowman]

Let me preface this by saying that if this team was being used properly,we wouldn't even be having this conversation....
Barring a change in philosophy(which I can't help but feel will happen EVENTUALLY),here's an answer:

If there was any question that Dream will
retire a Rocket that has already been answered.YES,HE IS A HOUSTON INSTITUTION and some things and people are sacred.Chuck on the other hand while having trade value is probably doomed to play out his days here, do to his 9 mil. and salary cap problems involved in a would be trade.
Don't get me wrong,we have taken care of our weaknesses:point guard and interior defense
We have a very balanced team(minus a veteran pt.)....lots of talent.......LET THEM PLAY

[heypartner]

kenny hand 8-10

Why Sampson even accepted, shows his character.


clutch
oops...the bbs comment deserves apology. for some reason, i feel like i'm apologizing to a sportswriter, who should be used to it. but i realize your an fanatic volunteer....i'm a fanatic user (i guess). nice board....sorry man. this is far funner place to gab than espn or newsgroups.

i'm sure we will be agreeing and disagreeing again in the future. Let me introduce myself....I LOVE THIS GAME. I LOVE SEEING IT LIVE. I really can't even follow other sports anymore.

My pet peeve is having discussions about player personnel moves that haven't happened...I enjoy talking the game and what i see on the court. That's why I like to make sarcastic remarks about Fantasy Baskbatball-type discussions. It's not personal until I realize there's a person reading it on the other end who's not getting paid for their remarks. sorry.

Admit one thing about this thread...you are challenging Rudy and Carrol Dawson's track record of excellent player personnel moves. That I gave up doing long ago.

My interest is seeing how well they groom Cato and Francis. I don't know what's up with Cato...falling for headfakes, not getting clean boards. He lacks fundamentals. But I disgress into another thread.

I LOVE THIS GAME.

cheers.

[DREAMer]

I've already said I'm against losing either Barkley or Hakeem. BUT, I have a question for all those posters who would be for getting rid of one or both. Choose your answer from one of the following:

A. Are you just as willing
B. A little more willing
C. A little less willing
D. More willing
E. Less willing
F. Much more willing
G. Much less willing

Which of the above most represents your feeling about getting a different head coach, assuming Rudy is kept in the organization in some capacity, instead of getting rid of Hakeem and/or Barkley?

------------------
I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.

[Finalfantasy]

Somehow I don't see the excellent personel record of Rudy and Dawson that no one should challenge. You mean Scottie Pippen and Matt Baloney?

[Francis3]

Is this the most posts in a topic?

[SamCassell]

DREAMer, I dont think the "Fire Rudy" argument comes from the same perspective as the "Trade Dream / Barkley" argument. Firing Rudy is saying, "We're a good team, and could contend if we had a coach who knew how to use our talents." Trading one of the older stars is really only valuable if you adopt the (to me terribly fatalistic and sad) belief that we have a bad team and are doomed to mediocrity at best, and the only way to get better is to get worse 1st.

For the record, I'm against either changing coaches or trading CB4 or Dream. It's only 13 games into the season, and I think those kind of moves are a little hotheaded and reactionary at this point. Let things play themselves out, and watch the ship level itself. Mebbe pick up Derek Harper and/or Sam Mack to fill our needs. I see us going 45-37 on the season, finishing strong. I think we are capable of surviving without hitting bottom, thanks to an already-young nucleus of Francis, Cato, Shandon, and Mobley. They should be able to assume more responsibility as first Chuck and then Dream retires. In 18 mo or so we will have a hell of alot of cap room, to get a decent big man to round out that young group.

I think its unfair to fire Rudy when he is trying to mesh a new team, with 7 new players (3 of them starters), 13 games into the season. If the team underperforms all year, then can his @$$ after the season.

As for rebuilding, it is not necessarily a winning formula. Look at the Clips. The Mavs. The Grizz. The Wiz. The Warriors. The Nets. The Cavs. If we "drop the elevator" as Clutch suggests, we could never get back.

[bballfanatic]

No you don't. Let the young guys learn from them. If Charles wants to go somewhere else for the chance at a ring, I would not hold a grudge (like I do against Pippen). Dream wants to retire here and I think that should be respected besides he too is still good. It's not as much loyalty as class and respect to let him retire as a Rocket. He has paid his dues.

[heypartner]

Clutch

You seem to assume team chemistry builds as a matter-of-fact over time. I'm sure you'd agree team chemistry is more delicate and difficult to achieve than that. Wholesale changes pretty much throws team chemistry to the wind, and the franchise at that point has lost control and must rely on the players developing it themselves.

Throwing out the veterans and forcing the rooks to develop on their own can result in cell phones taking over the locker room...egos fighting...blah blah. You simply cannot rely on the youngsters nowadays being determined and team focused like Garnett or Duncan. The majority of them simply don't have that character; yet can develop it in the right atmosphere.

Look at the Lakers: team chemistry problems after a slew of trades. Look at Miami: wholesale changes with Riley, but he still doesn't have them performing in playoffs better than Utah and Indiana.

I agree with you that the young nucleus is the future and we should change the team now to suit them. I only disagree on how to do it. First, I think our young players are getting plenty of playing time right now (except Cato--i don't know what's up with that)...I suspect Cato has changed since the contract--see barkley's comments. Secondly, I don't think trades will get any quality young players in return like they can in baseball. Thirdly, we still need to protect our franchise identity as a class place to play (that is important for future free agents). Lastly, our current young nucleus is in place (splash in a choice free agent down the road and roll players--voila).

Remember: Your way and my way cannot produce a contender any faster than Minn or Sac have done...yet every champion from the Pistons on, was built from talent and roll players in a solid mixture of team chemistry.

Sorry you can't see how your wholesale trade idea throws chemistry and franchise identity to the wind...leaving it to the player egos to regain. I'm glad the Rockets front office would never listen to these fantasy basketball approaches to player moves.

[DREAMer]

Of course I don't think we should trade Hakeem, duh. But, not just for personal reasons. He has already said that he doesn't want to be traded, and that he'll retire before he allows it to happen. So, why even ask the question? Because, if he retires, we don't get anything and we still take the salary hit.

I really don't think we should trade Barkley either. If we do, I don't know if I'll ever consider him a true Rocket. If he retires here in Houston, I will lean more to considering him one. Yeah, yeah, that may just be me, but I'm giving my opinion here. But, besides that, who is gonna give us anything of value for an aging player who is retiring at the end of the season? Even if a team wanted to, how could they with his contract? They'd have to match his $9 or $10 million contract with either quantity or quality.

Answer me this:

Let's say you have a house and a dog in the backyard for protection. A few years go by and that dog turns out to be a great investment. He has been a great companion to you and your kids, he loves the neighborhood kids too. He doesn't crap in the house, he doesn't bark unless there's something wrong, he greets you everyday when you come home, and he has on two seperate occasions foiled armed robbery of your home. But, after ten years or so, he starts to get old. He can't see like he used to, and he's sure as heck isn't as fast as in his prime. Meanwhile, about a year ago, you got another young puppy. This puppy seems to have all the potential to be as good a dog as his predecessor. He isn't as big as the other dog, but he's quicker and scrappier.

Would you just send the first dog to the pound or Animal Control because he can't do his job as well as he used to? Or would you hang onto him and show him the same loyalty that he showed you until the bitter end?

Well, I for one would stick with him. Keep in mind there is no guarantee the new puppy will be as good, or not get sick or hurt.

------------------
I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.

[bballfanatic]

I am sorry about all the reposts. I'm still fairly new here and didn't realize my messages were posting but they were on another page. SORRY ABOUT THAT.

I apologize to Clutch too. I didn't realize he meant "only if they want the trade". I would give Dream and Charles whatever they want - and sorry, yes out of loyalty and what they have done for the team, especially Dream. Of course, I would have to get something to benefit my team for the future.

I thought the way the trade of Hakeem and Toronto was handled poorly. It obviously was not what he wanted - he did not even know about it.

I am sorry I missed the point (not my day)in that yall are talking down the road if the record is still poor.

My only point is it has to be handled with class - has to be wanted by the two Top 50 stars and has to be to a contender, especially for Barkley. Heehee, my last post on this topic, I promise.

[Clutch]

heypartner

Thank God the Rockets don't listen to stay-put freaks otherwise we'd still be built around Ralph Sampson, Tim McCormick and "Cornbread" Maxwell.

You seemed to ignore the contradiction you posted, that you stated it takes "years" to develop chemistry. I agreed, but stated we don't have years with Barkley and Olajuwon. I'm awaiting your response to that.

You also seem to think that I think a trade guarantees chemistry. Of course not. What I am saying is we need to get the guys in here that we plan on trying to build with. If chemistry is unstable, you change the structure. But if you're trying to form a championship concotion that teakes years to develop, your main chemicals shouldn't be ones that dissipate after a year or two. Capiche?

That is, unless you plan on burning research for a year or two knowing you won't reach the answer and starting completely over at that time.

What if we had said "Lets keep John Lucas", or "Why give up cash for this Maxwell hothead?", or "Jim Petersen will come around."

No Kenny. No Vernon. No Otis.

... or, "Why part with Otis... he helped us win last year. We've already got perfect chemistry."

No Clyde.

Minnesota was an up-and-coming team with Marbury and Gugliotta. Both gone. By trading Marbury, they got Brandon AND Szczerbiak. Not bad.

Trades are not always the answer, but to rebuild they are sometimes necessary.

------------------
Clutch
Out to prove Scottie Pippen will apologize at gunpoint.
www.clutchcity.net (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[Mulder]

Kudo's to Clutch for having the Balls to bring up this topic.
For those of you who think even mentioning the word trade when it comes to Hakeem and Barkley denotes an unloyal and fairweather fan, grow up. The NBA is a business, plain and simple. If the Rockets trading away a veteran is the only possible way to rebuild the team, then it has to be viewed as an option. Remember the TEAM NAME is the Houston ROCKETS, not the Houston Hakeems. IMHO, trading Hakeem would give us more leverage, although it would kill me to see him in another uniform.
BTW, if you don't like the way the site is being run, build your own damn BBS, I'm staying here with this one.


------------------
The truth is out there... but not in the post.

[AntiSonic]

I'd keep 'em both, hope to God we make the playoffs, and see what happens from there.

Charles will either go out a champion or have a sad, yet unbelievably heroic finale to his great career.

------------------
WE WILL WATCH THEM FALL.

[napster]

The Clips aren't really the BEST example....the reason they could not rebuild successfully was mainly due to the part of one man, Sterling.


[Note: This message has been edited by Administrator]

[napster]

BTW, Charles.....Heroic? =)

[houstoncougars]

dont trade hakeem or charled they are stil too goof

[fatty fat fat]

Thacabbage:

BTW, LOL and other acronysms are tired, old, and really belong in teenage chat rooms. Just letting you know. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
"I would like to thank... everyone... for their contriboootions" Hakeem accepting his MVP award at the 1999-2000 NBA Finals.

[houstoncougars]

what does btw and lol mean?