Lebron Winning a Tainted Ring?

[Qball]

The issue with Lebron that irks me the most is that he premeditated getting superstars together to win a championship. I understand the need for a 1-2 punch to be successful but 3 legitimate "first" options on one team is too much imo. So I hate that the so called The Chosen One needs 2 other superstars to get himself a ring.

My question: If Lebron didn't recuit Bosh and it was only him and Wade in Miami, would you be more inclined to cheer for him?

[Shaud]

It's not even a tainted ring. I'd rather win a ring that some people called tainted than to stay in Cleveland and not win a ring at all.

As for your question if they didn't sign Bosh they could have added more depth to their team.

[magnomonkey]

It's not easy winning a ring, no matter which way you put it.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Chris Bosh is not a legitimate first option, at least not for a good team. He's also not a superstar.

[Qball]

Chris Bosh is not a legitimate first option, at least not for a good team. He's also not a superstar.

Averaging 23 pts and 10 reb a game for past 5 years before he got to Miami. He was as much of a first option as Amare Stoudamire.

[TexasTofu]

haters gonna hate

[javal_lon]

then they would have complained about him not winning in Cleveland ... If the Decision came this summer instead, and knowing Rose's rise to superstardom, those same people who said "If he chose Chicago, that would have been cool" , would still say he needed someone else........ It truly was a no-win situation for Lebron ....But he chose the best out of the no-win situation.....Kudos to him

[SacTown]

I thought the consensus around here was that Bosh sucks, he's soft, and that he cries after losses. Why, all of the sudden, is he the reason that Lebron is winning?

[juicystream]

Averaging 23 pts and 10 reb a game for past 5 years before he got to Miami. He was as much of a first option as Amare Stoudamire.

He was doing so on a very bad team, and didn't play defense. Bosh was never going to be the best player on a title winning team.

[RoxSqaud]

Wade and Bosh's ring will be tainted...

from being carried by Lebron.

[Icehouse]

Just as tainted as those rings won in the 80's or the 90's by Jordan/Pippen/Rodman.

[Ramathorn006]

Was our championships tainted NO. Will LeBron's be tainted NO. So many things could've gone wrong in Miami but they made it work. Give them credit. But they still have to get through Dallas.

[Qball]

then they would have complained about him not winning in Cleveland ... If the Decision came this summer instead, and knowing Rose's rise to superstardom, those same people who said "If he chose Chicago, that would have been cool" , would still say he needed someone else........ It truly was a no-win situation for Lebron ....But he chose the best out of the no-win situation.....Kudos to him

Needing someone else is fine. That's the point of the thread. If he teamed up with Rose or Stoudamire or Howard or CP3, I don't think that many people would be upset at his quest for a ring.

This ain't about him leaving cleveland. Leaving cleveland was perfectly fine.

[javal_lon]

I thought the consensus around here was that Bosh sucks, he's soft, and that he cries after losses. Why, all of the sudden, is he the reason that Lebron is winning?

Real talk

[gmoney411]

I hate the Heat but I won't go as far as saying tainted. Words like manfactured and cheapend are a better fit IMO.

If they didn't have Bosh I would respect the rings a little more. Having three players that might need to be doubled on any given night is a huge deal.

[javal_lon]

Needing someone else is fine. That's the point of the thread. If he teamed up with Rose or Stoudamire or Howard or CP3, I don't think that many people would be upset at his quest for a ring.

This ain't about him leaving cleveland. Leaving cleveland was perfectly fine.

well to answer the question...I dont think anything would have changed in people's eyes because he left Cleveland to do it...An even better question would be what if they both came to Cleveland,and it was Lebron's doing(Kobe), would people still hate to give him his due??

[apollo33]

I hate the Heat but I won't go as far as saying tainted. Words like manfactured and cheapend are a better fit IMO.

If they didn't have Bosh I would respect the rings a little more. Having three players that might need to be doubled on any given night is a huge deal.

Exactly, it's so rigged, and it's not even good basketball. Heat doesn't even play hard, they just cruise control for some time when they are bored, and they just win when they want to.

When you stack 2 superstars and a top 5 power forward, it doesn't take as much heart or good basketball to win it all.

[tellitlikeitis]

Will his ring be tainted? No. I agree with cheapened, though.

Personality: Asshole. Talent: Awesome.

[SacTown]

Why did Dream need Barkley and Clyde to beat the supersonics in the mid 90's? Tainted?

[Mr. Clutch]

This is stupid. What about Boston and their big 3?

Here's a question though: How good would the Miami Heat be WITHOUT LeBron James?

My guess is they would be good, but nowhere close to a championship team. They would have been crushed by Boston or Chicago.

[RV6]

He's not cheating, no matter how you put it. Any beef with lebron should be about the way he went about leaving Cleveland, that's it. That's done with and the Heat are making a legit run.

[houseofglass21]

Why did Dream need Barkley and Clyde to beat the supersonics in the mid 90's? Tainted?

Barkley never won a championship with the Rockets. We lost to the Supersonics because we traded away Sam Cassell and Robert Horry to get his fat ass.

[SacTown]

Barkley never won a championship with the Rockets. We lost to the Supersonics because we traded away Sam Cassell and Robert Horry to get his fat ass.

Why did we need Clyde? We just won a championship before he came. Was that 2nd ring tainted? Did Clyde ride Dream's coat tails to a ring? Should he be crucified like Lebron and Bosh?

[gmoney411]

Why did Dream need Barkley and Clyde to beat the supersonics in the mid 90's? Tainted?

For starters Dream already had two rings. Your issue would be more about Barkley teaming up with them. If Barkley had got a ring with Hakeem and Clyde people would not have looked at it the same as they would have if he had won with the Suns against Jordan.

So to answer your question, Taintened? No Cheapened/Lessened as far as him proving his greatness? Yes

[what]

Call me when has won the ring first. This is ridiculous. The bulls aren't even as close to a challenge as the Mavericks will be.

[professorjay]

So you can have a good team. But not too good. It's not fair when great basketball teams win championships.

LBJ should have made a poll on ClutchFans to let him know exactly which team crosses the line of too good to validate himself. Apparently there is this magic line of too much help that certain members of Clutchfans are privy to. Perhaps these arbiters of 'real' NBA Championships can let us know the secret. Two superstars, a star, and role players is too much. How about one superstar and three stars? Too far? Two superstars, role players, but the role players are borderline stars. Just under the limit? Three superstars and scrubs. Cool? Two superstars, two stars, but the stars are only defensive specialists. Where's the formula because I still can't figure it out.

I'm sure all the superstars in the NBA who are already eliminated from the playoffs are telling their GM's 'please don't get me any more help. No, wait, I mean I want help but make sure they aren't great.' I hope the Rockets follow suit, stay the course and don't get too many great players. I would have to stop watching if that were the case.

[SacTown]

Call me when has won the ring first. This is ridiculous. The bulls aren't even as close to a challenge as the Mavericks will be.

What did you predict before the Celtics and Bulls series? Should we go back and look?

[gmoney411]

So you can have a good team. But not too good. It's not fair when great basketball teams win championships.

If you just want to win championship, No. If you want to be in the GOAT conversation going to a team with tons of talent is really going to hurt your chances.

[ApuN]

Barkley never won a championship with the Rockets. We lost to the Supersonics because we traded away Sam Cassell and Robert Horry to get his fat ass.

Dude you are mixed up

Cassell and Horry were traded away mainly because we couldn't beat the Sonics

Barkley did get us past the Sonics. I'm not a big fan of his but he was brought here specifically to beat the Sonics.

[BleedRocketsRed]

Call me when has won the ring first. This is ridiculous. The bulls aren't even as close to a challenge as the Mavericks will be.

Seriously. People acting as if he has already won it all probably have not seen Dallas play this postseason. If Dallas continues doing what they have been doing, those people are going to be in for a huge surprise.

He hasn't won any ring yet let alone a tainted one.

[BleedRocketsRed]

If the Heat can be Dallas, then it will be impressive.

No ring is a tainted ring. You can argue that Mitch Richmond's (or any other scrub on a championship team) ring is tainted because he (or they) didn't do jack **** but LeBron's would not be.

Riding Wade's coattails to win a ring and tainted ring is a different thing. Still a legit way, just a didn't achieve it through his greatness.

[Ramathorn006]

Call me when has won the ring first. This is ridiculous. The bulls aren't even as close to a challenge as the Mavericks will be.

The Mavs have yet to play an elite defensive team. They are in a for a rude awakening.

[what]

The Mavs have yet to play an elite defensive team. They are in a for a rude awakening.

So lets give lebron the ring now?

This is an epic fail of a thread.

[BleedRocketsRed]

The Mavs have yet to play an elite defensive team. They are in a for a rude awakening.

They swept a top 5 defensive team. Stop making bull**** up.

[roxstarz]

The Mavs have yet to play an elite defensive team. They are in a for a rude awakening.

I could counter that and say the Heat haven't played an elite offense.

[tellitlikeitis]

So lets give lebron the ring now?

This is an epic fail of a thread.

He already has one from the Boston series, haven't you heard?

[JimRaynor55]

Who cares if he teamed with Wade and Bosh. Do people give Magic crap for having Kareem, Worthy, etc? Bird for having McHale and Parish? Garnett for having Pierce and Ray Allen? Some people occasionally say that Kobe rode Shaq to a few titles, but nobody ever goes so far as to say that his rings are "tainted."

Teams win championships, not players. The Miami Heat are basically three superstars and a bunch of scrubs weighing them down.

[professorjay]

If you just want to win championship, No. If you want to be in the GOAT conversation going to a team with tons of talent is really going to hurt your chances.

This Heat is very talented, albeit concentrated within 2-3 players. Would you say this team is more talented than previous legendary and loaded rosters like older Lakers, Celtics, et al? Time for a new thread...

[JimRaynor55]

This season's Boston Celtics had 4 All-Stars and Shaq signing on for the vet's minimum. Just saying.

[SacTown]

Seriously. People acting as if he has already won it all probably have not seen Dallas play this postseason. If Dallas continues doing what they have been doing, those people are going to be in for a huge surprise.

That's what everyone said about the Celtics and Bulls.... and the Heat beat them both in 5.

[BleedRocketsRed]

This Heat is very talented, albeit concentrated within 2-3 players. Would you say this team is more talented than previous legendary and loaded rosters like older Lakers, Celtics, et al? Time for a new thread...

He clearly said GOING to a team with alot of talent hurts your chances in a GOAT discussion. MJ/Bird/Magic/etc did not go onto those teams, they were drafted by those teams.

[what]

He already has one from the Boston series, haven't you heard?


Exactly,beat boston 1 ring. Beat the bulls, that's the finals. Might as well pack up and go home dallas.

[NMS is the Best]

It won't be as tainted as D-Wade's...

[rmoreno]

Why did we need Clyde? We just won a championship before he came. Was that 2nd ring tainted? Did Clyde ride Dream's coat tails to a ring? Should he be crucified like Lebron and Bosh?

WOW, how can you make that comparison:eek:. ALL THREE OF THEM (olajuwon, clyde, barkley) WERE AT THE END OF THEIR CAREERS. While Lediva, Dwade, and Bosh are still in their prime. Thats why he gets crucified.

[rmoreno]

This season's Boston Celtics had 4 All-Stars and Shaq signing on for the vet's minimum. Just saying.

Shaq, hahahahahahahaha. If you didn't notice he played 2 min in the series. Rondo was also injured, and the rest of their players are past their primes. I mean KG is contemplating retirement. Just saying.....

[JimRaynor55]

Shaq, hahahahahahahaha. If you didn't notice he played 2 min in the series. Rondo was also injured, and the rest of their players are past their primes. I mean KG is contemplating retirement. Just saying.....

You seriously think I don't know that Shaq barely played? Still, did we see anyone at the beginning of the season talking about how Boston was "too" stacked, and going for a tainted ring? Did anybody say any of that about the 2008 Boston team? You get the damn point.

[professorjay]

He clearly said GOING to a team with alot of talent hurts your chances in a GOAT discussion. MJ/Bird/Magic/etc did not go onto those teams, they were drafted by those teams.

How does this change what they accomplish on the court?

[Liberon]

Bosh is clearly more of role player.

[JimRaynor55]

If LeBron had ran off to a crap team willing to sign him for a ridiculously inflated contract, people would criticize him for putting money before winning. As they have with other players before. Players making winning a priority is something to be praised...unless they do it too well.

[gmoney411]

This Heat is very talented, albeit concentrated within 2-3 players. Would you say this team is more talented than previous legendary and loaded rosters like older Lakers, Celtics, et al? Time for a new thread...

Ad the previous poster said, I put going in there for a reason because that does change things. However, ignoring that I will discuss it from a strictly talent aspect.

The problem with brining up the old teams and saying people have had trios before is that no team has ever had a trio like this of proven players all in their primes. Sure Magic, Kareem, Worthy is just as good or an even better but their primes never lined up. Sure KG, Allen, and Ray are close if they are all 27-29 but those guys got together in a later stage of their careers. The old Celtics are as close are you are going to get but but I think talent wise Wade/Bosh>McHale/Parish. I can't think of another team that had three legitimate 25 plus point scorers all on the same team at once in their primes and all 3 of them are good or great defenders.

Also, with all the expansion since the 80s the talent pool is more spread out. The Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons all had three HOFs back then. We had two if Ralph doesn't go down, the Bulls had two, the sixers had three. As dominant as the Lakers have been over the last three years they only have one HOF. the Magic only have one, the Spurs only have one, Dallas has 1.5 with super old Kidd, etc. You get 2.5 HOF in their prime in today's game and you are going to dominate.

[gmoney411]

If LeBron had ran off to a crap team willing to sign him for a ridiculously inflated contract, people would criticize him for putting money before winning. As they have with other players before. Players making winning a priority is something to be praised...unless they do it too well.

He is making just as much in Miami as he would or could have made anywhere else.

[dsid411]

haters gonna hate

Exactly.

[JimRaynor55]

He is making just as much in Miami as he would or could have made anywhere else.

Which is beside the point, which was a hypothetical scenario.

[professorjay]

Ad the previous poster said, I put going in there for a reason because that does change things. However, ignoring that I will discuss it from a strictly talent aspect.

The problem with brining up the old teams and saying people have had trios before is that no team has ever had a trio like this of proven players all in their primes. Sure Magic, Kareem, Worthy is just as good or an even better but their primes never lined up. Sure KG, Allen, and Ray are close if they are all 27-29 but those guys got together in a later stage of their careers. The old Celtics are as close are you are going to get but but I think talent wise Wade/Bosh>McHale/Parish. I can't think of another team that had three legitimate 25 plus point scorers all on the same team at once in their primes and all 3 of them are good or great defenders.

Also, with all the expansion since the 80s the talent pool is more spread out. The Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons all had three HOFs back then. We had two if Ralph doesn't go down, the Bulls had two, the sixers had three. As dominant as the Lakers have been over the last three years they only have one HOF. the Magic only have one, the Spurs only have one, Dallas has 1.5 with super old Kidd, etc. You get 2.5 HOF in their prime in today's game and you are going to dominate.

I'm tired of all these arguments. "I don't like when they did it." "I don't like how they did it." "I don't like that they did it at all." How many excuses are we going to make before we actually talk about what happens on the court?

Take whatever talent those teams had at that point in time. Older, younger, whatever. Still rank the Heat over all of them?

[josephnicks]

lol how quickly people change their tune.. first the heat arent good enough because they arent a team and they cant win the finals with 3 players.. now its a "tainted" ring because of god knows what.. i would expect all the rockets fans here to be pulling for lebron since they are playing the DALLAS MAVERICKS.. the mavericks people.. Go Heat!!!

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Riding Wade's coattails to win a ring and tainted ring is a different thing. Still a legit way, just a didn't achieve it through his greatness.

Do you even watch the games or do you just look at the final score and let the game play out in your imagination according to your preconceived notions about how it should go down? I really cannot imagine the universe you must be living in if you have been watching Miami's playoff games and you think Lebron is the one "riding coattails."

[BleedRocketsRed]

Do you even watch the games or do you just look at the final score and let the game play out in your imagination according to your preconceived notions about how it should go down? I really cannot imagine the universe you must be living in if you have been watching Miami's playoff games and you think Lebron is the one "riding coattails."

He joined Wade's team, wtf did you expect people to say?

Wade defeated the Celtics (did you watch that series?) and game 5 against the Bulls last night, it was DWade who sparked that comeback (did you even watch that game?). Keep in mind, he is playing hurt. LeBron dickriders get so butthurt when I point it out.

[gmoney411]

I'm tired of all these arguments. "I don't like when they did it." "I don't like how they did it." "I don't like that they did it at all." How many excuses are we going to make before we actually talk about what happens on the court?

Excuses for what?

[QUOTE=professorjay;6146433]Take whatever talent those teams had at that point in time. Older, younger, whatever. Still rank the Heat over all of them?

I explained to you all of the factors that I take into account when judging the Heat against older teams. If you have no rebuttal for them then there is nothing left for me to say to you about it.

[R0ckets03]

What a dumb ass thread.

[Icehouse]

I explained to you all of the factors that I take into account when judging the Heat against older teams. If you have no rebuttal for them then there is nothing left for me to say to you about it.

Your explanations were nothing but excuses to invalidate other great combinations. Or shall I say try to invalidate other great combinations. But to give you one recent example, the Big 3 of the 08 Celtics were in their prime. They were all between the ages of 30 and 31, and all had great seasons the year before they got to Boston. I don't know why you, and others, want to suddenly age people to recreate history to fit your conclusions. 30-31 years of age is not post prime. For example, Hakeem was 31 and 32 when he led us to our titles.

Need another? When the 83 Sixers won, Moses was 27 and won the MVP in back to back years. Doc was 32 and finished 4th in MVP voting, and won it the previous season. Cheeks was 26. Bobby Jones was 31. Moses decided to leave us and go there, to a team that had just lost in the Finals. Yes, I think the 83 Sixers had more talent then the current Heat.

There are numerous other examples. I would list them but what's the point if you are just gonna come up with bs excuses to try and invalidate them. Just save us the time and say you don't like "how" the team was assembled. It's clear this team doesn't have more talent than tons of past championship rosters.

[t_mac1]

how can lebron's ring be tainted when his production has been BETTER in the playoffs this year than any year except that 09 run when he was out of his mind?

[Jontro]

I think his ring will be legit. But fact still stands that he'll still be the most hated player in the league outside of Miami fans.

The one that's tainted is Bosh's ring :)

[gmoney411]

Your explanations were nothing but excuses to invalidate other great combinations. Or shall I say try to invalidate other great combinations. But to give you one recent example, the Big 3 of the 08 Celtics were in their prime. They were all between the ages of 30 and 31, and all had great seasons the year before they got to Boston. I don't know why you, and others, want to suddenly age people to recreate history to fit your conclusions. 30-31 years of age is not post prime. For example, Hakeem was 31 and 32 when he led us to our titles.

Prime isn't just about age isn't about seasons played too. Kobe was 31 last year but he was already out of his prime. Players like Kobe and KG that came out of high school peak earlier because they have so many miles on their body. When KG got to Boston they had to greatly reduce his minutes and he still ended up missing more games than he ever had.[/QUOTE]

Need another? When the 83 Sixers won, Moses was 27 and won the MVP in back to back years. Doc was 32 and finished 4th in MVP voting, and won it the previous season. Cheeks was 26. Bobby Jones was 31. Moses decided to leave us and go there, to a team that had just lost in the Finals. Yes, I think the 83 Sixers had more talent then the current Heat..

I will admit for the first year the 76ers probably had Moses and Dr. J in their prime and maybe even in the second year. I could probably agree with you that for a very short amount of time the 6ers had a more talented team.

There are numerous other examples. I would list them but what's the point if you are just gonna come up with bs excuses to try and invalidate them. Just save us the time and say you don't like "how" the team was assembled. It's clear this team doesn't have more talent than tons of past championship rosters.

Don't get carried away. There aren't numerous other examples or you would have named them. I had already named the team you put as your greatest as one of the teams in the 80s with 3 HOFers. I also noticed that you just decided to ignore my statement about the league being deeper back then and a stacked team these days will have an easier time dominating. I'm guessing you decided to do that because better competition is just another excuse.

[Octavianus]

Exactly, it's so rigged, and it's not even good basketball. Heat doesn't even play hard, they just cruise control for some time when they are bored, and they just win when they want to.

When you stack 2 superstars and a top 5 power forward, it doesn't take as much heart or good basketball to win it all.

Worst post so far?

[knote32]

1 ring in Cleveland would have been far greater than 20 rings in Miami.



His rings won't be tainted, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a coward, or selfish...

[Octavianus]

1 ring in Cleveland would have been far greater than 20 rings in Miami.



His rings won't be tainted, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a coward, or selfish...

Coward or selfish? Did Lebron touch you in bad places?

[Severe Rockets Fan]

1 ring in Cleveland would have been far greater than 20 rings in Miami.



His rings won't be tainted, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a coward, or selfish...

A few years down the road no one will remember that, just like all championships. Nobody looks at the asterisks...they just look at the trophies. As upsetting as it is to the Lebron haters, he's shown that he's willing to eat his pride and be known as a champion and not as a would-be champion if he just had the right players around him. I'm not sure it was that ridiculous to glamourize the biggest free agent signing of the decade (heavens!), but it got him and his team more media coverage and more people followed Miami because of it. Regardless if you hate him or love him, he created more passion for basketball...in the end it was a smart move...people certainly didn't stop watching b-ball because of it, if anything it created more watchers- in that respect he is the Jordan of this era and you are all oblivious if you think otherwise. Wake up folks...You've been punked.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

He joined Wade's team, wtf did you expect people to say?

Wade defeated the Celtics (did you watch that series?) and game 5 against the Bulls last night, it was DWade who sparked that comeback (did you even watch that game?). Keep in mind, he is playing hurt. LeBron dickriders get so butthurt when I point it out.

I watched the Celtics series. Lebron was the one who closed out games 4 and 5 (have you forgotten the 10-0 run to finish them off)? The only game where Wade was clearly better than Lebron in that series was Game 3, and the Heat lost that one.

D-Wade may have "sparked" the comeback last night, but the only reason they even needed to come back from such a big hole was that he was complete garbage all game (series, really) up to that point. Six turnovers in the first half, nine for the game. But hey, at least he had those two assists. And FYI, Lebron had 8 points and an assist in the last 2:06 of the game, including the game-tying and game-winning shots.

The complete ignorance of people who keep claiming this is Wade's team is just astounding. When a guy has more points, rebounds, assists, steals, MVP votes (522-24) and shoots a higher FG%, 3P%, and FT% than his next best teammate (while regularly guarding the other team's best player), it is his freaking team. Some of you people are just so blinded by your dislike for the guy you can't see it.

[dback816]

What an incredibly embarrassing thread full of butthurt babies.

[david_rocket]

I dont like lebron, but I dont think its tainted, if he wins. I dont really cared that he went to Miami with other superstars, the thing I dont liked was the TV show, if he only did a press conference, like all players do, then it would be ok.

It could be tainted, if the refs clearly gives the games to the heat, like the Lakers vs Kings series, or Rockets vs Mavs in 05.

But now its not tainted.

[dback816]

I dont like lebron, but I dont think its tainted, if he wins. I dont really cared that he went to Miami with other superstars, the thing I dont liked was the TV show, if he only did a press conference, like all players do, then it would be ok.

It could be tainted, if the refs clearly gives the games to the heat, like the Lakers vs Kings series, or Rockets vs Mavs in 05.

But now its not tainted.

The thing you don't like also raised more money for charity than everyone in this thread ever will.

[professorjay]

Excuses for what?

I explained to you all of the factors that I take into account when judging the Heat against older teams. If you have no rebuttal for them then there is nothing left for me to say to you about it.

New reasons pop up with every post. Now we're also using 'the league was tougher back then.' What's next? Why not cheapen every other championship since the 90's because the league has been changing.

So that's why I re-stated the question - to include all your circumstances. It's not 'right' to compare them because they weren't at their peak. Fine, compare them to whatever talent they had when they won their championships. Evidently there were mostly over the hill, so I guess they weren't that great...although they still won titles.

And if you feel I didn't answer appropriately and 'there is nothing left for me to say to you about it.' It's ok, we're just talking basketball, man. The pompous attitude on a b-ball bbs is a bit over the top though.

Your explanations were nothing but excuses to invalidate other great combinations. Or shall I say try to invalidate other great combinations. But to give you one recent example, the Big 3 of the 08 Celtics were in their prime. They were all between the ages of 30 and 31, and all had great seasons the year before they got to Boston. I don't know why you, and others, want to suddenly age people to recreate history to fit your conclusions. 30-31 years of age is not post prime. For example, Hakeem was 31 and 32 when he led us to our titles.

Need another? When the 83 Sixers won, Moses was 27 and won the MVP in back to back years. Doc was 32 and finished 4th in MVP voting, and won it the previous season. Cheeks was 26. Bobby Jones was 31. Moses decided to leave us and go there, to a team that had just lost in the Finals. Yes, I think the 83 Sixers had more talent then the current Heat.

There are numerous other examples. I would list them but what's the point if you are just gonna come up with bs excuses to try and invalidate them. Just save us the time and say you don't like "how" the team was assembled. It's clear this team doesn't have more talent than tons of past championship rosters.

^Someone gets it.

[conundrum]

1 ring in Cleveland would have been far greater than 20 rings in Miami.



His rings won't be tainted, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a coward, or selfish...

Most ridiculous post ever. The hate has truly blinded your common sense.

[david_rocket]

The thing you don't like also raised more money for charity than everyone in this thread ever will.

well, he could give the exact same money to charity, and give the press conference not the TV show.

[dback816]

well, he could give the exact same money to charity, and give the press conference not the TV show.

Yea, just like a middle class American family could settle for an apartment instead of a house, and donate the extra to charity :rolleyes:

Why are we even here on the internet when we could donate that extra $30-$50 monthly fee away to the needy :rolleyes:

Bottom line: The Decision did something positive at the expense of a bunch of angry sports "fans". I hope every star pulls a stunt like that from now on.

[knote32]

Would Dream be Dream If he bolted to another superstar talent in free agency?
(Nope, instead he won with two rookies, Otis Thorpe, and a ragtag bunch of roleplayers...)


It is truly baffling that there are folks who cheer for Miami.

It is truly baffling that there are folks that think Lebron's actions will not impact his legacy.

Most guys become ring chasers when they are over the hill. Interesting...

[JunkyardDwg]

Bottom line: The Decision did something positive at the expense of a bunch of angry sports "fans". I hope every star pulls a stunt like that from now on.

The Decision had nothing to do with charity and everything to do with one person thinking he's bigger than the game. He could have donated his own money without the spectacle. Hell he couldn't even donate his own money, he had to find sponsors. A little humility goes a long way.

It won't be tainted but it sets a bad precedent. I don't wanna see more super teams of whiny, ego-driven players with an inflated sense of entitlement. So go Mavs and go Dirk for not bailing on your team when things got tough.

[Icehouse]

Prime isn't just about age isn't about seasons played too. Kobe was 31 last year but he was already out of his prime. Players like Kobe and KG that came out of high school peak earlier because they have so many miles on their body. When KG got to Boston they had to greatly reduce his minutes and he still ended up missing more games than he ever had.

Kobe was out of his prime because he has been to the Finals 7 times and had more mileage on his legs than Jordan during the 2nd 3-peat. Those 3 players were all playing great ball at that time. Allen had a career year scoring, Pierce was dropping 25 a night and KG had a great year. His minutes were reduced because he had more depth on the team.


I will admit for the first year the 76ers probably had Moses and Dr. J in their prime and maybe even in the second year. I could probably agree with you that for a very short amount of time the 6ers had a more talented team.

Well that's the year that they won so that alone shows how silly this whole point is.


Don't get carried away. There aren't numerous other examples or you would have named them. I had already named the team you put as your greatest as one of the teams in the 80s with 3 HOFers. I also noticed that you just decided to ignore my statement about the league being deeper back then and a stacked team these days will have an easier time dominating. I'm guessing you decided to do that because better competition is just another excuse.


They have been named already. You just choose to invalidate them for bogus reasons. And a stacked team these days won't have an easier time dominating. The Heat don't have any more talent than the Lakers (Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Artest) or Celtics (4 all-stars).

[hairyme]

Why did Dream need Barkley and Clyde to beat the supersonics in the mid 90's? Tainted?

Troll elsewhere.

1996 Houston Rockets
Dream 33
Drexler 34
Barkley 33

2010 Miami Heat
James 25
Wade 28
Bosh 26

Other trios of interest (ages as of first season together):

2007 Boston Celtics
Garnett 31
Pierce 30
Allen 32

1980 Boston Celtics
Bird 23
McHale 22
Parish 27

1982 LA Lakers
Abdul-Jabbar 35
Magic 23
Worthy 21

1995 Chicago Bulls
Jordan 32
Pippen 30
Rodman 34

Of the above lists, excluding players from the last decade, only Rodman is not on the 50 Greatest Players list. All of these groups were formed, for lack of a better word, "naturally" (i.e. through the draft or trades). Heat detractors will continue to argue that the trio was contrived, and thus illegitimate, while Heat fans/bandwagoners will claim that their formation was no different than what we've seen in years past...

Both are wrong. Three players at this level coming together on their own terms during their prime is definitely unprecedented, but it doesn't make their team any less legit or result in "tainted" rings... or maybe it does a little--I'm still digesting that one. That said, I personally hope that this isn't a sign of things to come in the league for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum.

[Rezbama]

chati le to Lebron.

[Octavianus]

So many mad people on this forum, taking the Heat going into the finals personally, and what Lebron did.
Enjoy the great basketball that the finals is, and get ready for a great game 1.

[Shroopy2]

The thing you don't like also raised more money for charity than everyone in this thread ever will.

Charity is great. But that doesnt mean charity automatically absolves people of douchery committed.

Or charity absolves the mindlessness of predicting you can win "8 championships or more" WELL AFTER the charity event.

That does not make Lebron a bad person. But those actions needlessly brought negative attention onto himself and on the team in ways other stars and MVPs before him have not done.

[gmoney411]

New reasons pop up with every post. Now we're also using 'the league was tougher back then.' What's next? Why not cheapen every other championship since the 90's because the league has been changing.

Not new at all. I mentioned the league being thinner in my original post to you about the Heat's talent level.

So that's why I re-stated the question - to include all your circumstances. It's not 'right' to compare them because they weren't at their peak. Fine, compare them to whatever talent they had when they won their championships. Evidently there were mostly over the hill, so I guess they weren't that great...although they still won titles.

Nobody outside of Bird has had that much talent in their prime for a sustained amount of time. Lebron was suppose to be going for the GOAT crown. He can and will get a ring or two but like I originally said there is too much talent on that team all in their primes together for him to be considered the GOAT IMO.


And if you feel I didn't answer appropriately and 'there is nothing left for me to say to you about it.' It's ok, we're just talking basketball, man. The pompous attitude on a b-ball bbs is a bit over the top though.

There wasn't anything pompous about my response. You tried to focus in on one part of my argument and I didn't want to answer it because I felt you were trying to make it too simple to get the answer you wanted out of me. Saying I explained myself on that issue already isn't pompous.

[gmoney411]

Well that's the year that they won so that alone shows how silly this whole point is.

I'm not sure if you caught how this conversation started or not. It came from me saying the Heat are too talented for Lebron to get in the GOAT conversation. No team has ever had 3 players in their prime at this age except maybe the Celtics. Lebron could have about 4-6 years left of prime ball with all three. Pointing to a team like the 6ers who had a nice run doesn't change my opinion on the sustained talent possibilities of the Heat while Lebron is trying to be the GOAT. Lots of players got help near the end of their careers but nobody outside of maybe Bird got this much right in the middle of it.

They have been named already. You just choose to invalidate them for bogus reasons. And a stacked team these days won't have an easier time dominating. The Heat don't have any more talent than the Lakers (Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Artest) or Celtics (4 all-stars).

If you consider age a bogus reason then sure. Kobe got his stacked team with about 3 years left in the tank for him. You give him that team when he is 27 and he would have had a real shot at 5 rings with them. Those stacked Lakers dominated while Kobe was at his best and I think they still would be doing the same if he wasn't so worn down. You let the Celtics get together at 27 and they might have 3-5 too. My whole argument is based on the GOAT aspect and how long these teams can stay in their prime. I'm not talking about teams winning one or two rings but instead teams that have a real shot at 5-7.

[Deji]

Why did Dream need Barkley and Clyde to beat the supersonics in the mid 90's? Tainted?

Because George Karl used (at the time) illegal zone schemes with an already excellent defensive team.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

If you consider age a bogus reason then sure. Kobe got his stacked team with about 3 years left in the tank for him. You give him that team when he is 27 and he would have had a real shot at 5 rings with them.

Kobe got a stacked team from Day 1 in the league. He joined a team that had the most dominant player in the league (Shaq) and several all-star level talents (Van Exel - all star 98; Eddie Jones - all star 97,98,2000; Ceballos - all star 95).

In fact, he forced his way to that team by telling everyone through his agent that he wouldn't play for any team but LA. So he got to play through all but three years of his career (admittedly, they fell during his prime) on a stacked team. Does that mean all his rings are tainted?

[Icehouse]

I'm not sure if you caught how this conversation started or not. It came from me saying the Heat are too talented for Lebron to get in the GOAT conversation.

Larry Bird is in the GOAT convo, right next to Magic. Jordan played all of his prime years next to Pippen, and they both grew old together. Bosh is not as good as you make him out to be, and I'm sure the Heat would gladly give up Bosh for prime versions of Parish/DJ/Ainge or the Bulls players 3-12 (multiple bigs, All-Star PF's, legit shooters, a PG that could actually defend like Harper and Kukoc).



If you consider age a bogus reason then sure.

I consider all of your reasons bogus, because all you are doing is going through each team and trying to find some seperate way to disqualify that particular team. Age is your reason for one. You create something else to disqualify another. And the worst part is your reasons aren't even legit reasons. You can't disqualify the Bulls based on age. Pippen played with Jordan for 10 full seasons, from the age of 22 and up. So how can the Bulls be disqualified? Because they have Chris Bosh and scrubs from spots 5-12? These Heat don't have more talent than any of those Bulls teams, which had a big 2, a legit PF, multiple 7 footers that were actually good players and tons of shooters.

And yes, Bird and Jordan are both in the GOAT convo and Bird had a chance to win 5-7 rings. He won 3 and lost in the Finals or Conf Finals another 4 times.

[Scolalist]

Chris Bosh is not a legitimate first option, at least not for a good team. He's also not a superstar.

He's looked like a superstar in the playoffs.

[krayziefl]

I don't knpw what you are talking about. Lebron winning a tainted ring?? Lebron won't be winning a NBA championship ring this year. The Dallas Mavericks will and it won't be tainted

[blackistan]

The guy shouldve had dwade come to cleveland but I have to give the man credit he is balling outrageous right now

[Corpusfan]

Of course it's not tainted. He didn't do anything wrong or shady. He just took advantage of the system that's in place, in a way that others haven't. He, Wade and Bosh did the smart thing. It's ugly, unpalatable, and they did it in an arrogant way, but it was smart. I'd love to see Miami lose just because they're the big dog that's supposed to win, but there's nothing tainted about it.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

He's looked like a superstar in the playoffs.

Not against the Celtics. He looked good against the Sixers, although he couldn't do much to stop Elton Brand in several of the games. He looked really bad against the Celtics except for one strong game. He looked like a superstar against the Bulls.

[Tigerknee]

I watched the Celtics series. Lebron was the one who closed out games 4 and 5 (have you forgotten the 10-0 run to finish them off)? The only game where Wade was clearly better than Lebron in that series was Game 3, and the Heat lost that one.

D-Wade may have "sparked" the comeback last night, but the only reason they even needed to come back from such a big hole was that he was complete garbage all game (series, really) up to that point. Six turnovers in the first half, nine for the game. But hey, at least he had those two assists. And FYI, Lebron had 8 points and an assist in the last 2:06 of the game, including the game-tying and game-winning shots.

The complete ignorance of people who keep claiming this is Wade's team is just astounding. When a guy has more points, rebounds, assists, steals, MVP votes (522-24) and shoots a higher FG%, 3P%, and FT% than his next best teammate (while regularly guarding the other team's best player), it is his freaking team. Some of you people are just so blinded by your dislike for the guy you can't see it.

^^^
What he said

[J-Man]

If LBJ and dwade didnt have bosh, i don't think they couldn't get past boston. Without Bosh's big games against CHI, the heat wouldn't be goin to the finals right now.

[RedRedemption]

If LBJ and dwade didnt have bosh, i don't think they couldn't get past boston. Without Bosh's big games against CHI, the heat wouldn't be goin to the finals right now.

Replace Bosh with a healthy Stoudemire and they'd be sweeping every single team.

[Shaud]

If LBJ and dwade didnt have bosh, i don't think they couldn't get past boston. Without Bosh's big games against CHI, the heat wouldn't be goin to the finals right now.
It's tough to say what they would have done without signing Bosh because you don't know who they would have added with the money they didn't give to Bosh.

[Tesla]

Replace Bosh with a healthy Stoudemire and they'd be sweeping every single team.

Absolutely not. Amare is perhaps the worst defensive big-man in the league and would almost completely negate the defensive efforts of LeBron and Wade. At least Bosh can stay in front of his man and get a hand up most of the time.

[ApuN]

1 ring in Cleveland would have been far greater than 20 rings in Miami.



His rings won't be tainted, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a coward, or selfish...

Only delusional Cleveland fans and dumfu**ck's that don't know basketball actually believe he could have won a ring in Cleveland.

[gmoney411]

Larry Bird is in the GOAT convo, right next to Magic. Jordan played all of his prime years next to Pippen, and they both grew old together. Bosh is not as good as you make him out to be, and I'm sure the Heat would gladly give up Bosh for prime versions of Parish/DJ/Ainge or the Bulls players 3-12 (multiple bigs, All-Star PF's, legit shooters, a PG that could actually defend like Harper and Kukoc).

I agree with you 100% if you don't think Bosh is all that good. Bosh did you just score 30 plus twice against the Bulls and shoot 60% from the field so he is a pretty good player, but if you don't think so and think the Heat are a big 2 with an above average third player I agree that the Heat team is no different than a lot of teams we have seen.


I consider all of your reasons bogus, because all you are doing is going through each team and trying to find some seperate way to disqualify that particular team. Age is your reason for one. You create something else to disqualify another. And the worst part is your reasons aren't even legit reasons. You can't disqualify the Bulls based on age. Pippen played with Jordan for 10 full seasons, from the age of 22 and up. So how can the Bulls be disqualified? Because they have Chris Bosh and scrubs from spots 5-12? These Heat don't have more talent than any of those Bulls teams, which had a big 2, a legit PF, multiple 7 footers that were actually good players and tons of shooters.

Once again you are saying Bosh isn't that good so I'm guessing that is where we disagree. If you are just comparing Lebron/Wade vs. Jordan/Pippen then I agree about both teams having a lot of time together at the top of their game. Also, healthy Miller and Haslem aren't scrubs and they showed up big for the Heat in the last series.

And yes, Bird and Jordan are both in the GOAT convo and Bird had a chance to win 5-7 rings. He won 3 and lost in the Finals or Conf Finals another 4 times.

I judge Lebron the same way I judge Bird and Bird is not in my GOAT convo. He is one of the greatest of all time but I would never argue for him to be the greatest. He played with 2 all stars his entire career and only won three rings. I can't but him ahead of Jordan who got twice as many. or Magic who got 2 more, or even Hakeem who only got 2 but with less talent. You can't make a top 10 list without Larry in it and not seem ridiculuos but you could make a top 5 without him.

[BasketballReasons]

Lebron and friends are just realizing everyone's NBA 2K dreams... You always want to have the best player possible at each spot.
Well there you go.

[sammy]

Nope. He's easily the best player on the team and in the league.

[pahiyas]

OK, have finally decided who to root for. Dallas somehow comes as the underdog. GO underdogs!

But if Lebron wins it "fair and square", it isn't tainted in my book.

[RedRedemption]

Absolutely not. Amare is perhaps the worst defensive big-man in the league and would almost completely negate the defensive efforts of LeBron and Wade. At least Bosh can stay in front of his man and get a hand up most of the time.

Bosh is also a weak, scrawny player. Amare is a rock.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Replace Bosh with a healthy Stoudemire and they'd be sweeping every single team.

Replace Bosh with a healthy Stoudemire and the Heat defense is not nearly as good, unless Stoudemire commits to playing defense for the first time in his career. But the last time a coach asked him to do that, didn't he get driven out of town in less than a full season?

[roslolian]

Exactly, it's so rigged, and it's not even good basketball. Heat doesn't even play hard, they just cruise control for some time when they are bored, and they just win when they want to.

When you stack 2 superstars and a top 5 power forward, it doesn't take as much heart or good basketball to win it all.

Boston had the big 3, Rondo and Perkins. That's 4 superstars and a top 5 center. Was the boston ring tainted? :rolleyes:

[sammy]

Boston had the big 3, Rondo and Perkins. That's 4 superstars and a top 5 center. Was the boston ring tainted? :rolleyes:
Pistons also had 4 all-stars.

The Lakers were/are also stacked.

[Mr. Clutch]

The Spurs stopped playing a healthy Robinson so they could tank for Duncan.

[roslolian]

Pistons also had 4 all-stars.

The Lakers were/are also stacked.

While we're at it wasn't Pippen the 2nd best wing player at the time? And didn't he play with MJ? I can't even recall anybody who can serve as a legitimate rival to MJ, that's because he and Pippen played on the same team.

[wekko368]

Boston had the big 3, Rondo and Perkins. That's 4 superstars and a top 5 center. Was the boston ring tainted? :rolleyes:

Boston won the title in 07-08. At that time, Rondo wasn't even an all-star yet you're referring to him as a "superstar"? And even so, Allen and Pierce weren't "superstars".

Top 5 center in 07-08? Perkins? Seriously?

Off the top of my head, Yao, Bogut, Dwight, Kaman, Chandler, Okafor, and Duncan.

[wekko368]

While we're at it wasn't Pippen the 2nd best wing player at the time? And didn't he play with MJ? I can't even recall anybody who can serve as a legitimate rival to MJ, that's because he and Pippen played on the same team.

Drexler was always considered the legitimate rival to Jordan.

But in any case, the Bulls might've had incredible wings, but they had poor centers. That's why the Rockets and Spurs continually beat them in the regular season. The overall talent was comparable.

[wekko368]

The Spurs stopped playing a healthy Robinson so they could tank for Duncan.

Spurs didn't have the worst record in the league that year, and another team (I forget which one) had a much better statistical chance of getting the first pick.

[jVgOwnsYou]

I am inclined to cheer for Lebron because he's a great basketball player and he makes the game better. All of the hype, hate, love, criticism , expectations just comes with the territory of being great, but ultimately it's meaningless. Its for ESPN.

As a FREE AGENT, LeBron had the right to make the best decision for himself personally. I applaud the fact that he used this opportunity to go to the team that was championship caliber. Yeah, there was a huge fallout with a lot of folks(mainly the fans of teams who didn't get him), but it's all pretty baseless. It was his decision. Period.

It's truly about winning, and his team is in a great position to do that now and in the future.

First things first, though. They still have 4 games to win, and Dallas is playing for the ring just like Miami. Tainted? Hell no. May the best team win. Always.

[roslolian]

Drexler was always considered the legitimate rival to Jordan.

Drexler was known more for being the reason Portland passed on MJ rather than being MJ's rival. Saying he's MJ's rival is like saying Joe JOhnson is Kobe's rival.

But in any case, the Bulls might've had incredible wings, but they had poor centers. That's why the Rockets and Spurs continually beat them in the regular season. The overall talent was comparable.

In any case, Miami might've had incredible Wings, but they had poor centers and pgs. That's why the Bulls swept them and they only got the 3rd seed in the regular season. The overall talent was comparable.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Spurs didn't have the worst record in the league that year, and another team (I forget which one) had a much better statistical chance of getting the first pick.

It doesn't matter that the Spurs didn't have the worst record in the league. By tanking, they still gave themselves a better chance to get a top pick than they would have had if they started playing Robinson as soon as he was ready to go.

Honestly, I don't blame them for tanking, but let's not pretend it didn't happen or that it didn't end up helping them.

[Shaud]

Funny thing is before the playoffs most of the board said Miami had no shot at at title because they didn't have size or depth.

Now that they are in the finals people are saying it's tainted, rigged, and too easy to take them seriously as Champions.

[wekko368]

Drexler was known more for being the reason Portland passed on MJ rather than being MJ's rival. Saying he's MJ's rival is like saying Joe JOhnson is Kobe's rival.

Out of curiosity, when did you start watching basketball? Drexler was universally considered the 2nd best shooting guard back then and almost on par with Jordan. Don't forget, Drexler led his team to the finals in 89-90.

In any case, Miami might've had incredible Wings, but they had poor centers and pgs. That's why the Bulls swept them and they only got the 3rd seed in the regular season. The overall talent was comparable.

Through the course of Jordan's first 3 peat, the Spurs and Rockets both had a regular season record of 5-1 against the Bulls. Even Jordan recognized that their interior presence was their weakest link.

In regards to Jordan's Bulls vs Hakeem's Rockets & Robinson's Spurs, regular season information is all that's available so that's what we have to use.

But for Rose's Bulls and Lebron/Wade's Heat, we have the playoffs which is far more relevant than regular season. And it's pretty clear that Miami has far more talent than the Bulls. Don't be stupid.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Funny thing is before the playoffs most of the board said Miami had no shot at at title because they didn't have size or depth.

Now that they are in the finals people are saying it's tainted, rigged, and too easy to take them seriously as Champions.

Exactly. Before the Boston series, people were saying Miami had no chance. Boston had the psychological edge, the great point guard, the superior depth, three wins against them in the regular season. KG was going to make Bosh his bitch. After the series was over... well Miami was supposed to win it easily because Boston was old and beat up and never really had a chance.

But just wait for the Bulls, there's no way Miami can handle Chicago. They've got the great size, the great defense. The Bulls are going to dominate the glass. There's nobody on the Heat who can handle Derrick Rose. Oh wait... Miami won that in five games, too? Well, the Bulls were only a one man team. D-Rose didn't have enough help. Boozer sucked (how was that surprising?).

And of course... the refs handed both series to the Heat!

[mattrbowers]

It's not even a tainted ring. I'd rather win a ring that some people called tainted than to stay in Cleveland and not win a ring at all.

As for your question if they didn't sign Bosh they could have added more depth to their team.

I bet James & Wade were sitting around talking about joining forces, and Bosh walks up and is like "what you guys talkin bout?"

They roll their eyes, but can find no way to steer out of the question. Of course Bosh invites himself, and Dwayne & Lebron are like "great, now we won't have any money to hire a bench, or even some coaches!"

[Icehouse]

Drexler was always considered the legitimate rival to Jordan.

But in any case, the Bulls might've had incredible wings, but they had poor centers. That's why the Rockets and Spurs continually beat them in the regular season. The overall talent was comparable.

The Bulls centers weren't poor. Centers that you have to bench for the series, like Dampier and Big Z, those centers are poor. The Bulls centers were at least as good as the Asek kid that everyone is slobbing on. They could board, play D and hit open shots. And they were legit 7 footers (Cartwright, Perdue, Dele, etc).

Not to mention all of their shooters. The Buls had a lot of talent. You take LeBron off this team and they aren't winning 55 games like the Bulls did when Jordan left.

[wekko368]

Exactly. Before the Boston series, people were saying Miami had no chance. Boston had the psychological edge, the great point guard, the superior depth, three wins against them in the regular season. KG was going to make Bosh his bitch. After the series was over... well Miami was supposed to win it easily because Boston was old and beat up and never really had a chance.

Superior depth and regular season wins became irrelevent when Shaq got injured. All season long, their biggest advantage was their size, and that became neutralized after the injury and the Perkins trade.


But just wait for the Bulls, there's no way Miami can handle Chicago. They've got the great size, the great defense. The Bulls are going to dominate the glass. There's nobody on the Heat who can handle Derrick Rose. Oh wait... Miami won that in five games, too? Well, the Bulls were only a one man team. D-Rose didn't have enough help. Boozer sucked (how was that surprising?).

And of course... the refs handed both series to the Heat!

To be honest, I dont think anyone really expected the Bulls to beat the Heat.....they just hoped they would.

[wekko368]

The Bulls centers weren't poor. Centers that you have to bench for the series, like Dampier and Big Z, those centers are poor. The Bulls centers were at least as good as the Asek kid that everyone is slobbing on. They could board, play D and hit open shots. And they were legit 7 footers (Cartwright, Perdue, Dele, etc).

The Bulls centers were poor compared to Olajuwon & Robinson. And Dele was 6-9.


Not to mention all of their shooters. The Buls had a lot of talent. You take LeBron off this team and they aren't winning 55 games like the Bulls did when Jordan left.

How is this relevant to anything I've said? Btw, don't discount the impact that Kukoc made.

[crash5179]

Wade and Bosh's ring will be tainted...

from being carried by Lebron.

Not hardly. Wade was able to win a ring on his own with a very bad supporting cast. LeBron left Cleveland and joined Wade because he knew he could not do it on his own like Wade.

[Icehouse]

Funny thing is before the playoffs most of the board said Miami had no shot at at title because they didn't have size or depth.

Now that they are in the finals people are saying it's tainted, rigged, and too easy to take them seriously as Champions.

It will be twice as worse if they actually win.

[wekko368]

Not hardly. Wade was able to win a ring on his own with a very bad supporting cast. LeBron left Cleveland and joined Wade because he knew he could not do it on his own like Wade.

That's debatable. Your supporting cast can never be that bad if it includes the officials...

[Icehouse]

The Bulls centers were poor compared to Olajuwon & Robinson. And Dele was 6-9.

Yes they were poor when compared to two of the greatest centers in league history. But they weren't "poor" centers. They would all be considered top 10 centers today.


How is this relevant to anything I've said? Btw, don't discount the impact that Kukoc made.

Maybe I am confused by what you were saying. It seemed like you were trying to discount the supporting talent on those Chicago teams. If so, those teams were very talented and deep. The current Heat would not lose if they just had their centers and reliable shooters (not even counting Kukoc).

[Icehouse]

Not hardly. Wade was able to win a ring on his own with a very bad supporting cast. LeBron left Cleveland and joined Wade because he knew he could not do it on his own like Wade.

Very bad supporting cast? This is where the hate goes too far. Shaq, Mourning, Haslem, Posey, Walker...avg? Shaq made the All-NBA first team that year.

[wekko368]

Yes they were poor when compared to two of the greatest centers in league history. But they weren't "poor" centers. They would all be considered top 10 centers today.

Maybe I am confused by what you were saying. It seemed like you were trying to discount the supporting talent on those Chicago teams. If so, those teams were very talented and deep. The current Heat would not lose if they just had their centers and reliable shooters (not even counting Kukoc).

Yeah, it looks like there's a disconnect. Roslolian said that Jordan never had a legitimate rival, and I responded by saying that the Bulls had legitimate rivals in teams like the Rockets/Spurs who didnt have stellar wings but compensated by having elite centers (a weak position for the Bulls).

[Icehouse]

Yeah, it looks like there's a disconnect. Roslolian said that Jordan never had a legitimate rival, and I responded by saying that the Bulls had legitimate rivals in teams like the Rockets/Spurs who didnt have stellar wings but compensated by having elite centers (a weak position for the Bulls).

Gotcha. That's my bad.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Superior depth and regular season wins became irrelevent when Shaq got injured. All season long, their biggest advantage was their size, and that became neutralized after the injury and the Perkins trade.


And yet nobody was talking about how the Celtics advantages were gone until the series was over.



To be honest, I dont think anyone really expected the Bulls to beat the Heat.....they just hoped they would.

This may be a legitimate point, but I think there were still a lot of people who really believed in the Bulls, especially after Game 1.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Not hardly. Wade was able to win a ring on his own with a very bad supporting cast. LeBron left Cleveland and joined Wade because he knew he could not do it on his own like Wade.

What a crappy supporting cast he had. A First Team All-NBA center. His backup center was one of the greatest interior defensive presences in the history of the game and still able to play well for 20 minutes a night. That alone is more than Lebron ever had in Cleveland, but I'll still mention the two serviceable point guards (Williams and Payton), the elite perimeter defender with a knack for hitting big shots (Posey), the chucker who could get hot on any given night (Walker), and the very underrated Haslem.

[wekko368]

And yet nobody was talking about how the Celtics advantages were gone until the series was over.


You can't be serious. There were countless analysts saying that the Celtics were going to regret trading Perkins to OKC. It seemed like the announcers commented on that almost every game...

[roslolian]

Out of curiosity, when did you start watching basketball? Drexler was universally considered the 2nd best shooting guard back then and almost on par with Jordan. Don't forget, Drexler led his team to the finals in 89-90.

IMO Drexler was considered the 2nd best SG back then more because of a lack of star power than anything else. I think if you polled the people during that time they'd say the 2nd best wing is actually Pippen, who unfortunately played on the same team as MJ. As far as true rivals are concerned, I think the Pistons and Isiah Thomas would be regarded as better rivals, Thomas was considered a superstar on par with MJ at the time and his Pistons punked him several times before he finally broke through. I was not actively watching b-ball back in the day, but even I have a hard believing Drexler was considered on par with MJ. Drexler's legacy certainly doesn't reflect him as being on par with MJ, people don't regard him as the GOAT now, do they?



Through the course of Jordan's first 3 peat, the Spurs and Rockets both had a regular season record of 5-1 against the Bulls. Even Jordan recognized that their interior presence was their weakest link.

In regards to Jordan's Bulls vs Hakeem's Rockets & Robinson's Spurs, regular season information is all that's available so that's what we have to use.

So what's your point? Don't you think the Bulls back then having the weak interior presence mirrors today's Heat with the weak C and PG? The Celts and the Bulls also dominated the Heat in regular season matchups, just like the Spurs and Rox dominated the Bulls in regular season. I still don't get what point you're trying to make.


But for Rose's Bulls and Lebron/Wade's Heat, we have the playoffs which is far more relevant than regular season. And it's pretty clear that Miami has far more talent than the Bulls. Don't be stupid.

Bulls also had far more talent than its contemporary teams. In fact, my opinion was that one reason MJ won six rings is his rivals were playing on crap teams. Hakeem, Drexler, humanhighlight reel, all of them were playing on weak teams that the Bulls out-talent simply because Jerry Krause was a genuis and paired MJ with Pippen+Rodman and a slew of dead eye shooters and defenders. Even their Cs, while weak compared to Hakeem and Ewing, would probably make mincemeat of Joel Anthony and Big Z. Same thing for Steve Kerr, I'm pretty sure he **** all over Mario Chalmers. Rodman over Haslem? LOL!

[wekko368]

IMO Drexler was considered the 2nd best SG back then more because of a lack of star power than anything else. I think if you polled the people during that time they'd say the 2nd best wing is actually Pippen, who unfortunately played on the same team as MJ. As far as true rivals are concerned, I think the Pistons and Isiah Thomas would be regarded as better rivals, Thomas was considered a superstar on par with MJ at the time and his Pistons punked him several times before he finally broke through. I was not actively watching b-ball back in the day, but even I have a hard believing Drexler was considered on par with MJ. Drexler's legacy certainly doesn't reflect him as being on par with MJ, people don't regard him as the GOAT now, do they?

You didn't watch basketball back then yet you think people back then would've thought Pippen was superior to Drexler?

I'm guessing you never actually saw Drexler play. If you watch videos of his Rocket years, you'll see how important he was to our team. And he was at the tail end of his career. Can you imagine him when he was at his physical prime?

And its unfortunate that Pippen played on the same team as Jordan? Seriously? It's widely regarded that Pippen became the player he was as a result of Jordan's tutelage, influence, and competitive nature.


So what's your point? Don't you think the Bulls back then having the weak interior presence mirrors today's Heat with the weak C and PG? The Celts and the Bulls also dominated the Heat in regular season matchups, just like the Spurs and Rox dominated the Bulls in regular season. I still don't get what point you're trying to make.

The point is talent level relative to the league. The first 3-peat Bulls were weak in the center position, and that was a big deal b/c they had to face the likes of Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, and young Shaq/Mourning/Deke. The current Heat team is weak in the center position, but it's not really a problem since most teams are weak in the center position.

Dwight Howard is the best center in the league today. Put him in 1992, and he's arguably the 5th best center.



Bulls also had far more talent than its contemporary teams. In fact, my opinion was that one reason MJ won six rings is his rivals were playing on crap teams. Hakeem, Drexler, humanhighlight reel, all of them were playing on weak teams that the Bulls out-talent simply because Jerry Krause was a genuis and paired MJ with Pippen+Rodman and a slew of dead eye shooters and defenders.

Absolutely wrong. If the Bulls had far more talent than its contemporary teams, then they would have dominating head to head records against everyone. But during the Bulls' first 3peat, both the Rockets and Spurs had 5-1 records against the Bulls.

Out of curiosity, do you think if Jordan stayed in the league in the mid-90's, the Bulls would've beaten the Rockets in the finals?



Even their Cs, while weak compared to Hakeem and Ewing, would probably make mincemeat of Joel Anthony and Big Z. Same thing for Steve Kerr, I'm pretty sure he **** all over Mario Chalmers. Rodman over Haslem? LOL!

I never thought I'd say it, but you're actually overrating the likes of Will Perdue and Bill Wennington.

[roslolian]

You didn't watch basketball back then yet you think people back then would've thought Pippen was superior to Drexler?

I'm guessing you never actually saw Drexler play. If you watch videos of his Rocket years, you'll see how important he was to our team. And he was at the tail end of his career. Can you imagine him when he was at his physical prime?

Pippen is more versatile, he's certainly taller, just as athletic and was the league's best defender (along with MJ). As far as credentials go, I always thought Pippen was underrated since he always played in MJ's shadow, but he led the Bulls to a finals berth once and a winning record for the years MJ was playing baseball. With Drexler, he seemed more of a Ray Allen type of player, a supporting cog rather than the guy you build around.

Also, you side-stepped my point about Drexler not being regarded as the GOAT if he was really on par with Jordan, nor seen as the greatest stumbling in his career.

And its unfortunate that Pippen played on the same team as Jordan? Seriously? It's widely regarded that Pippen became the player he was as a result of Jordan's tutelage, influence, and competitive nature.

honestly I think this bit is pretty much all hype and legend. Anecdotes about MJ always portray him as a douchebag and a dick, he humiliated a rookie over and over for looking him in the eye when they scrimmaged. You mean to say that type of overbearing bully would actually take the time to mentor a young Pippen? The kind, caring mentor image doesn't fit with the cut throat competitor, why will MJ develop someone who might turn out to be better than him? You can even see the lack of respect Pippen has for MJ, telling other people they'd rather have a Pippen than an MJ and saying LBJ is already better than MJ etc. He probably wouldn't act like that if MJ really did mentor him like in the stories. From the stories I read MJ was more the aloof guy who beat the **** out of any bull who didn't perform, and Pippen was the player whom others turned to for guidance and leadership.


The point is talent level relative to the league. The first 3-peat Bulls were weak in the center position, and that was a big deal b/c they had to face the likes of Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, and young Shaq/Mourning/Deke. The current Heat team is weak in the center position, but it's not really a problem since most teams are weak in the center position.

Dwight Howard is the best center in the league today. Put him in 1992, and he's arguably the 5th best center.

I agree with this. So why are you arguing with me? All I'm saying is the Heat now is comparable to the Bulls before, and everybody is giving the Heat all these flak when the Bulls before didn't get any.

Absolutely wrong. If the Bulls had far more talent than its contemporary teams, then they would have dominating head to head records against everyone. But during the Bulls' first 3peat, both the Rockets and Spurs had 5-1 records against the Bulls.

Out of curiosity, do you think if Jordan stayed in the league in the mid-90's, the Bulls would've beaten the Rockets in the finals?

The Bulls were good enough to win 6 rings, and then reached the Finals with their best player and arguably the GOAT in his prime. In fact, without MJ the team was deep enough they still won 55 games in the regular season, how stacked were with MJ playing?

Its hard to say if the Bulls would have beaten the Rox, I always felt the two Rox titles were won more on grit, determination and heart than on pure talent level. On paper the Bulls were the better team, but I think if they had met Dream would have smoked that team. Nobody could stop him those two years.

[dback816]

Not hardly. Wade was able to win a ring on his own with a very bad supporting cast. LeBron left Cleveland and joined Wade because he knew he could not do it on his own like Wade.

Did you seriously just equate Shaq, Mourning and Payton to the clowns Lebron had for teammates?

:confused:

[Steve_Francis_rules]

You can't be serious. There were countless analysts saying that the Celtics were going to regret trading Perkins to OKC. It seemed like the announcers commented on that almost every game...

Advantages. Yes, people were saying the Celtics were going to regret trading Perkins, although most people didn't think that day would come until the (inevitable) matchup with the Lakers in the Finals.

There was still the edge from having beat the Heat 3-1 during the season, the Rondo factor, D-Wade's inability to guard Ray Allen, the KG/Bosh matchup, and Boston's "psychological edge" from having defeated Wade and Lebron in previous playoffs.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

IMO Drexler was considered the 2nd best SG back then more because of a lack of star power than anything else. I think if you polled the people during that time they'd say the 2nd best wing is actually Pippen, who unfortunately played on the same team as MJ.

I don't think that's true. I think going into the 1992 NBA Finals, there was a lot of talk about how Clyde was close to being on MJ's level. He had led the Blazers to the Finals before. With a win in that series, he would have equaled MJ in team accomplishments.

Isn't that one of the reasons MJ decided to go crazy and drop six threes and 35 points in the first half of Game 1?

[roslolian]

I don't think that's true. I think going into the 1992 NBA Finals, there was a lot of talk about how Clyde was close to being on MJ's level. He had led the Blazers to the Finals before. With a win in that series, he would have equaled MJ in team accomplishments.

But he didn't win, and once MJ started collecting bling and nobody could stop him I think people stopped thinking of Clyde as being really close to MJ's level.

I guess as a post-99er I'm looking at things with a big of hindsight, but Clyde didn't even win 1 ring on his own, and I think by MJ's 5th ring nobody would have said he was on par with MJ.

[Icehouse]

But he didn't win, and once MJ started collecting bling and nobody could stop him I think people stopped thinking of Clyde as being really close to MJ's level.

I guess as a post-99er I'm looking at things with a big of hindsight, but Clyde didn't even win 1 ring on his own, and I think by MJ's 5th ring nobody would have said he was on par with MJ.

You are letting the results change your views on the player. Drexler was a great player and definately better than Pippen. He led his team to the Finals twice.

Pippen was the better defender, but that's all. Drexler was dropping 25/7/6/2 in his prime, as the primary option.

[roslolian]

You are letting the results change your views on the player. Drexler was a great player and definately better than Pippen. He led his team to the Finals twice.

Pippen was the better defender, but that's all. Drexler was dropping 25/7/6/2 in his prime, as the primary option.

Pippen playing majority of his career behind MJ really made him underrated IMHO. He wasn't Robin next to Batman, he was more like Batman alongside Superman. Pippen was a superstar in his own right, and when he was given his own opportunity to be the center of a team he produced stats identical to Drexler. Anyway, we're getting sidetracked with Pippen vs Drexler but my original point was that Drexler wasn't really considered MJ's equal. Maybe in the beginning when MJ hadn't won anything yet, but by the 3rd ring I don't think you'll find anyone who'll still say Drexler was on par with MJ.

[wekko368]

Pippen is more versatile, he's certainly taller, just as athletic and was the league's best defender (along with MJ). As far as credentials go, I always thought Pippen was underrated since he always played in MJ's shadow, but he led the Bulls to a finals berth once and a winning record for the years MJ was playing baseball.

Wow. I usually see that 1994 Bulls' Eastern Conference Semi Finals run exaggerated into an Eastern Conference Finals run. This is the first time I've seen it referred to as a "finals berth".


Also, you side-stepped my point about Drexler not being regarded as the GOAT if he was really on par with Jordan, nor seen as the greatest stumbling in his career.

I didn't side step anything. If you recall, this discussion was originally about contemporaries during Jordan's prime (late 80's/early 90's). At that time, Drexler was considered to be near Jordan's level.

Jordan didn't really start distancing himself until he started winning titles.


honestly I think this bit is pretty much all hype and legend. Anecdotes about MJ always portray him as a douchebag and a dick, he humiliated a rookie over and over for looking him in the eye when they scrimmaged. You mean to say that type of overbearing bully would actually take the time to mentor a young Pippen?

There are different ways to mentor. In Pippen's early years, Jordan was already an elite player and super competitive (as was Pippen). Phil Jackson would always put them on opposing teams in practices. Pippen improved his game by competing against elite competition every day.



All I'm saying is the Heat now is comparable to the Bulls before, and everybody is giving the Heat all these flak when the Bulls before didn't get any.

It's not comparable. There were teams in the early 90's (Rockets/Spurs) with the talent to beat the Bulls. No team today has the kind of talent that Miami has. Remember, James, Wade, and Bosh are all in their primes.

Which other teams have prime talent that even comes close to that trio?


The Bulls were good enough to win 6 rings, and then reached the Finals with their best player and arguably the GOAT in his prime. In fact, without MJ the team was deep enough they still won 55 games in the regular season, how stacked were with MJ playing?

Why does everyone forget that as soon as Jordan left to play baseball, the Bulls imported the best European player (Kukoc) at the time?

Also, don't forget that the Bulls' roster was completely revamped while Jordan played baseball. Out of both 3peat rosters, only Jordan and Pippen played on both.

And as I stated earlier, Jordan in his 2nd 3peat was past his prime.

[javal_lon]

I loved Scottie's game, but he was no 1st option for a contending team...

[Steve_Francis_rules]

But he didn't win, and once MJ started collecting bling and nobody could stop him I think people stopped thinking of Clyde as being really close to MJ's level.


But this was 1992. MJ had already been in the league for eight years. That's more than half of his career. You're acting as if the fact that Clyde wasn't held up to that level after 1992 means that he wasn't considered to be in MJ's class for the better part of the previous decade.

[Yao Ming's foot]

All 5 of Kobe's rings were won with no more than 1 all star teammate. That's "stacked"? :confused:

[t_mac1]

All 5 of Kobe's rings were won with no more than 1 all star teammate. That's "stacked"? :confused:

one of his teammates was shaq, arguably a top 3 most dominant player of all time

and one with pau gasol, and a DEEP team.

lebron has wade and bosh, and really nothing else. lebron has had to play 44 minutes in the playoffs, along with anchoring the defense. if you take into account all he has to do, outside of the 09 playoff run with the cavs, he's doing just as much as ever.

[Yao Ming's foot]

Its also funny how much ink has been given to downgrade Kobe's rings when in fact he had less help than Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, and nearly every other legend outside of Hakeem. Now Lebron apologists suddenly have a problem with it? LOL

[Qball]

LBJ should have made a poll on ClutchFans to let him know exactly which team crosses the line of too good to validate himself. Apparently there is this magic line of too much help that certain members of Clutchfans are privy to. Perhaps these arbiters of 'real' NBA Championships can let us know the secret. Two superstars, a star, and role players is too much. How about one superstar and three stars? Too far? Two superstars, role players, but the role players are borderline stars. Just under the limit? Three superstars and scrubs. Cool? Two superstars, two stars, but the stars are only defensive specialists. Where's the formula because I still can't figure it out.


Again, the focus of this thread was Lebron. I didn't start the poll asking about Wade or Bosh. I, and a lot of people, are right to hold Lebron to a higher standard than Wade or Bosh or Ray Allen or KG or Pierce. If Wade, Bosh, and Anthony played together, it wouldn't have been as big of an issue to me.

Right of Ascension supposedly goes Dr. J ---> Jordan ---> Kobe ---> Lebron?

The guy took avg players and carried them on his back to the NBA finals in 2007. I sat there with amazement thinking, wow he is just one superstar away from building a dynasty (I almost knew that it wouldn't be in Cleveland though).

The point is that Lebron winning the finals this year will not be the crowning achievement in his career that it should have been. Other than the stupid sideline dances he's done (crab dribble just made me lol), I really liked the guy as a player on and off the court.

Fine, he can go ahead and win a championship with 2 other superstars. Just don't go around (speaking mostly to media here) touting him as the next prototypical SG/SF NBA phenom given legendary status (a la Magic, Bird, etc). Put him in one class below with Clyde Drexler, Ray Allen, Scottie Pippen, etc.

[Yao Ming's foot]

one of his teammates was shaq, arguably a top 3 most dominant player of all time

and one with pau gasol, and a DEEP team.

lebron has wade and bosh, and really nothing else. lebron has had to play 44 minutes in the playoffs, along with anchoring the defense. if you take into account all he has to do, outside of the 09 playoff run with the cavs, he's doing just as much as ever.

Shaq and who else? Who has ever been Kobe's 2nd best title winning teammate? Glen Rice? Robert Horry? Lamar Odom? Do you really think those guys compare to Chris Bosh?

[t_mac1]

Shaq and who else? Who has ever been Kobe's 2nd best title winning teammate? Glen Rice? Robert Horry? Lamar Odom? Do you really think those guys compare to Chris Bosh?

a guy shaq who puts up 30 and 15 on 60% shooting throughout the playoffs? and draws triple teams basically 90% of the game?

yea, shaq was like 2 all-stars.

[napalm_black]

one of his teammates was shaq, arguably a top 3 most dominant player of all time

and one with pau gasol, and a DEEP team.

lebron has wade and bosh, and really nothing else. lebron has had to play 44 minutes in the playoffs, along with anchoring the defense. if you take into account all he has to do, outside of the 09 playoff run with the cavs, he's doing just as much as ever.

You may have just shot yourself in the foot with this logic.

So LeBron being equal, his team is suddenly winning everything easily. The only explanation is that he now has a significantly better team around him.

NBA fans are so hopelessly obsessed with superstardom. Teams win rings.

[Yao Ming's foot]

a guy shaq who puts up 30 and 15 on 60% shooting throughout the playoffs? and draws triple teams basically 90% of the game?

yea, shaq was like 2 all-stars.

and what is Wade.... chop liver? LOL. Isn't he the best SG in the league?

People were so insecure about Kobe getting rings early in his career that for whatever reason they stopped counting how much "help" a star player had after one teammate. What about the other 10 guys? Does it make any sense whatsoever to ignore them?

[t_mac1]

and what is Wade.... chop liver? LOL. Isn't he the best SG in the league?

People were so insecure about Kobe getting rings early in his career that for whatever reason they stopped counting how much "help" a star player had after one teammate. What about the other 10 guys? Does it make any sense whatsoever to ignore them?

a dominant inside player is much more valuable than a dominant wing player (and wade is not on the level of prime shaq in terms of dominance--you saw his series vs the bulls).

look stars win in this L. obviously wade and bosh have helped lebron tremendously as they helped alleviate some of the offensive responsibilities.

but make no mistake, if lebron had a prime shaq, teams wouldn't be able to build a "wall" as it has been said many times to neutralize lebron and force him to take contested jumpers.

people forget that until the 02-03 season, kobe ALWAYS had 1-on-1 coverage. he was a great 1-on-1 player who gets to play 1-on-1 all day, including in the playoffs.

playing with wade doesn't take the double teams away from lebron at all as he still gets more than his share of them.

you put shaq and take away wade/bosh, this heat team would be even more lethal.

[Icehouse]

Pippen playing majority of his career behind MJ really made him underrated IMHO. He wasn't Robin next to Batman, he was more like Batman alongside Superman. Pippen was a superstar in his own right, and when he was given his own opportunity to be the center of a team he produced stats identical to Drexler. Anyway, we're getting sidetracked with Pippen vs Drexler but my original point was that Drexler wasn't really considered MJ's equal. Maybe in the beginning when MJ hadn't won anything yet, but by the 3rd ring I don't think you'll find anyone who'll still say Drexler was on par with MJ.

He produced identical stats and quit on his team when the play wasn't called for him. Drexler is closer to being consider in Jordan's range than Pippen is in his.

[Icehouse]

All 5 of Kobe's rings were won with no more than 1 all star teammate. That's "stacked"? :confused:

Playing next to the best player in basketball is confusing, especially when that dude is a center and there really aren't many other centers left? And those teams had plenty of vets that knew how to win. That takes care of the first 3 rings.

As far as the last two, yes I say your team is stacked when you have 3 legit 7 footers that can score and most teams don't have 1.

[Icehouse]

Fine, he can go ahead and win a championship with 2 other superstars. Just don't go around (speaking mostly to media here) touting him as the next prototypical SG/SF NBA phenom given legendary status (a la Magic, Bird, etc). Put him in one class below with Clyde Drexler, Ray Allen, Scottie Pippen, etc.

Why should they put him below with dudes that don't have his numbers and that haven't led their teams to a title? Most of those wings that you mentioned won with tremendous help. Once LeBron got tremendous help, he seems to be winning just like they did. He certainly doesn't have any more help than those other wings.

[Yao Ming's foot]

a dominant inside player is much more valuable than a dominant wing player (and wade is not on the level of prime shaq in terms of dominance--you saw his series vs the bulls).

look stars win in this L. obviously wade and bosh have helped lebron tremendously as they helped alleviate some of the offensive responsibilities.

but make no mistake, if lebron had a prime shaq, teams wouldn't be able to build a "wall" as it has been said many times to neutralize lebron and force him to take contested jumpers.

people forget that until the 02-03 season, kobe ALWAYS had 1-on-1 coverage. he was a great 1-on-1 player who gets to play 1-on-1 all day, including in the playoffs.

playing with wade doesn't take the double teams away from lebron at all as he still gets more than his share of them.

you put shaq and take away wade/bosh, this heat team would be even more lethal.

Based on what? How many championship duos are there in NBA history? Kobe is the only guy in NBA history to show an ability to win multiple titles with only 1 other HOF teammate. I'm supposed to assume LeBron would have been able to win titles because he has made it to the finals with the best SG in the league AND the equivalent to Pau Gasol.

[Yao Ming's foot]

Playing next to the best player in basketball is confusing, especially when that dude is a center and there really aren't many other centers left? And those teams had plenty of vets that knew how to win. That takes care of the first 3 rings.

As far as the last two, yes I say your team is stacked when you have 3 legit 7 footers that can score and most teams don't have 1.

1) Lamar Odom isn't 7 foot tall
2) Refresh your memory. Bynum won both titles coming off a recent injury. He literally averaged 7 pts a game in the playoffs.

People despise Kobe so much they really delude themselves into believing bizarre things.

[Icehouse]

Based on what? How many championship duos are there in NBA history? Kobe is the only guy in NBA history to show an ability to win multiple titles with only 1 other HOF teammate. I'm supposed to assume LeBron would have been able to win titles because he has made it to the finals with the best SG in the league AND the equivalent to Pau Gasol.

Dude, stop trying to shortchange the talent Kobe has won with over the past 3 seasons. He has been playing with the best frontcourt in basketball and another multi-skilled 7 footer coming off the bench. Most teams don't have bigs these days. Our starting center is freaking 6-6!! It's no coincidence that LA lost when one of those highly efficient bigs started to play like garbage.

[Icehouse]

1) Lamar Odom isn't 7 foot tall
2) Refresh your memory. Bynum won both titles coming off a recent injury. He literally averaged 7 pts a game in the playoffs.

People despise Kobe so much they really delude themselves into believing bizarre things.

LA didn't need his scoring. They needed his defense and rebounding. And LA has been winning with their size and Kobe's ability to close. It's the size that keeps folks out the lane and controls both ends of the court.

Ok, he isn't 7 foot. Just a 6-10 dude with a hell of a wingspan that can play 3 positions...off the bench. Stop trying to shortchange Kobe's supporting cast. The only team that has had more talent over the past 3 seasons is arguably Boston. Kobe isn't winning with less. Just like other champions, his team has been arguably the most talented one in basketball.

[Yao Ming's foot]

Dude, stop trying to shortchange the talent Kobe has won with over the past 3 seasons. He has been playing with the best frontcourt in basketball and another multi-skilled 7 footer coming off the bench. Most teams don't have bigs these days. Our starting center is freaking 6-6!! It's no coincidence that LA lost when one of those highly efficient bigs started to play like garbage.

Your midget center averaged more pts a game in the playoffs than Bynum for those two titles.

1st three peat - Focus on Shaq, ignore the other 10 players

2nd back to back- Focus on "best frontcourt", ignore the worst backcourt and the fact that Bynum was a non factor

[Yao Ming's foot]

LA didn't need his scoring. They needed his defense and rebounding. And LA has been winning with their size and Kobe's ability to close. It's the size that keeps folks out the lane and controls both ends of the court.

Ok, he isn't 7 foot. Just a 6-10 dude with a hell of a wingspan that can play 3 positions...off the bench. Stop trying to shortchange Kobe's supporting cast. The only team that has had more talent over the past 3 seasons is arguably Boston. Kobe isn't winning with less. Just like other champions, his team has been arguably the most talented one in basketball.

Boston- 4 all stars - 4 HOFers
Miami- 3 all stars- 3 HOFers if the heat win some rings
Lakers 2 all stars 2 HOFers

[Yao Ming's foot]

LA didn't need his scoring. They needed his defense and rebounding. And LA has been winning with their size and Kobe's ability to close. It's the size that keeps folks out the lane and controls both ends of the court.

Ok, he isn't 7 foot. Just a 6-10 dude with a hell of a wingspan that can play 3 positions...off the bench. Stop trying to shortchange Kobe's supporting cast. The only team that has had more talent over the past 3 seasons is arguably Boston. Kobe isn't winning with less. Just like other champions, his team has been arguably the most talented one in basketball.

Thank you Bynum for your 5.6 rebounds a game. Kobe was blessed to be surround by such elite talent. LOL

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Its also funny how much ink has been given to downgrade Kobe's rings when in fact he had less help than Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, and nearly every other legend outside of Hakeem. Now Lebron apologists suddenly have a problem with it? LOL

Kobe may have had less help than those guys for the last two championships, but let's not forget that Kobe was "the help" for the first three.

[Yao Ming's foot]

Kobe may have had less help than those guys for the last two championships, but let's not forget that Kobe was "the help" for the first three.

Who wouldn't have been?

[Icehouse]

Boston- 4 all stars - 4 HOFers
Miami- 3 all stars- 3 HOFers if the heat win some rings
Lakers 2 all stars 2 HOFers

Boston - arguably the most talented team in basketball (LA and Philly are challengers)

Miami - arguably the most talented team in basketball (LA and Boston are challengers)

Lakers - arguably the most talented team in basketball (Boston challenger)

It's not that complex. Kobe's teams have been among the best in the league when he was winning, just like everyone else not named Hakeem or Tim.

[Icehouse]

Your midget center averaged more pts a game in the playoffs than Bynum for those two titles.

1st three peat - Focus on Shaq, ignore the other 10 players

2nd back to back- Focus on "best frontcourt", ignore the worst backcourt and the fact that Bynum was a non factor

And the fact that you say Bynum was a non-factor in LA's titles shows how much attention you paid to those postseasons.

[Yao Ming's foot]

And the fact that you say Bynum was a non-factor in LA's titles shows how much attention you paid to those postseasons.

Please tell me which games in the playoffs Bynum had a game that Chuck Hayes was incapable of having...

Lets start with 09

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01/gamelog/2009/#stats_playoffs

[Yao Ming's foot]

Boston - arguably the most talented team in basketball (LA and Philly are challengers)

Miami - arguably the most talented team in basketball (LA and Boston are challengers)

Lakers - arguably the most talented team in basketball (Boston challenger)

It's not that complex. Kobe's teams have been among the best in the league when he was winning, just like everyone else not named Hakeem or Tim.

Wat? Of course Kobe's teams are the best in the league win they win titles.

Duncan had two HOF teammates per title team plus an all nba defensive team first team defender.

[gmoney411]

Boston- 4 all stars - 4 HOFers
Miami- 3 all stars- 3 HOFers if the heat win some rings
Lakers 2 all stars 2 HOFers

If the Lakers don't win another ring I don't think Pau will get into the HOF.

[Icehouse]

Please tell me which games in the playoffs Bynum had a game that Chuck Hayes was incapable of having...

Lets start with 09

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01/gamelog/2009/#stats_playoffs

No offense, but there is no point on me debating with you when you are convinced that Bynum had no impact in the last two titles or that Hayes matches his impact. So carry on and believe whatever you like. :)

[Yao Ming's foot]

No offense, but there is no point on me debating with you when you are convinced that Bynum had no impact in the last two titles or that Hayes matches his impact. So carry on and believe whatever you like. :)

Lol of course there isn't.

My weapons are logic, statistics and facts.

You are motivated by delusional hate.

Those three are no match for that.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

Duncan had two HOF teammates per title team plus an all nba defensive team first team defender.

Sean Elliott is a HOFer? Or were you thinking of Avery Johnson? Mario Elie? Jaren Jackson? Malik Rose? Who was the second HOF teammate on the 1999 championship team?

And for the 2003 title team, you're really going to count rookie Manu Ginobili and second year Tony Parker as HOF teammates? The same Tony Parker who was so amazing all year that San Antonio actively recruited a replacement for him that summer, despite being the champs? The same Manu Ginobili who averaged 9ppg and shot 38% in the 2003 playoffs? Those were his HOF teammates?

[Yao Ming's foot]

Sean Elliott is a HOFer? Or were you thinking of Avery Johnson? Mario Elie? Jaren Jackson? Malik Rose? Who was the second HOF teammate on the 1999 championship team?

And for the 2003 title team, you're really going to count rookie Manu Ginobili and second year Tony Parker as HOF teammates? The same Tony Parker who was so amazing all year that San Antonio actively recruited a replacement for him that summer, despite being the champs? The same Manu Ginobili who averaged 9ppg and shot 38% in the 2003 playoffs? Those were his HOF teammates?

That's true about 1999. He only had one HOF teammate (David Robsinson). The other 3 teams featured 2 HOF teammates Parker and Ginobli. Of course you count them. You don't count Steven Jackson or Bruce Bowen because they are unlikely HOFers. Although Duncan was fortunate enough to have a teammate play 1st team all league defense for 5 straight years ( Kobe- 0) that's likely not enough to put him in the HOF.

[wekko368]

That's true about 1999. He only had one HOF teammate (David Robsinson). The other 3 teams featured 2 HOF teammates Parker and Ginobli. Of course you count them. You don't count Steven Jackson or Bruce Bowen because they are unlikely HOFers. Although Duncan was fortunate enough to have a teammate play 1st team all league defense for 5 straight years ( Kobe- 0) that's likely not enough to put him in the HOF.

That's some of the worst logic I've ever seen. You're gauging a player based on future accomplishments.

If the 2003 versions of Manu and Parker maintained their level of play throughout their careers, neither of them would have even made an all-star team.

When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in 2004, do you think it's fair to say that they lost even though they had a roster that included 4 HOFers (Shaq, Kobe, Payton, Malone) and 1 all-star (Grant)?

[Yao Ming's foot]

That's some of the worst logic I've ever seen. You're gauging a player based on future accomplishments.

If the 2003 versions of Manu and Parker maintained their level of play throughout their careers, neither of them would have even made an all-star team.

When the Lakers lost to the Pistons in 2004, do you think it's fair to say that they lost even though they had a roster that included 4 HOFers (Shaq, Kobe, Payton, Malone) and 1 all-star (Grant)?

Do you not remember the reaction after the 2004 Finals? Even though Payton was garbage and Malone was injured the media hype about the Lakers failure was so high it forced them to break up Kobe and Shaq. Was it fair? No. But thats how the world works.

Jordan may have had the Jordan Rules, but Kobe is judged by the Kobe rules. The Kobe rules dictate that we must highlight the fact that young Kobe was not better than prime Shaq even though no guard in the history of the NBA was/is better than prime Shaq. The Kobe rules also dictate that every other NBA legend can have 2,3 or 4 HOF teammates and its a non issue yet because Kobe played with Shaq we have to hear about it ad nauseum because people were scared of young Kobe shredding the Golden Child's legacy.

[gmoney411]

[QUOTE=wekko368;6151114]That's some of the worst logic I've ever seen. You're gauging a player based on future accomplishments.QUOTE]

So many of the people in this thread are gauging players based on past or future accomplishments instead of measuring them at a certain point in their career.

[SuperMarioBro]

Wow, I wonder why no one has ever brought up this topic for discussion before... You just blew my mind.

[ShiniKashi]

A ring is a ring is a ring.

http://www.thehobbit-movie-buzz.com/wp-content/uploads/hobbit/large_theonering_thehobbit_animated-lmmevtte.jpg

[wekko368]

The Kobe rules also dictate that every other NBA legend can have 2,3 or 4 HOF teammates and its a non issue yet because Kobe played with Shaq we have to hear about it ad nauseum because people were scared of young Kobe shredding the Golden Child's legacy.

Generally, when you say that an NBA legend has HOF teammates, that NBA legend is the best player on the team and the HOF teammates are supporting players.

If you want to be accurate, you should say that Shaq won with only 1 HOF teammate.

That's why it's a non-issue when you say Kobe won with only Shaq....you have the roles reversed.

But you didn't answer my question. Is it fair to say the 2004 Lakers had 4 HOF players and an all-star?

[Yao Ming's foot]

Generally, when you say that an NBA legend has HOF teammates, that NBA legend is the best player on the team and the HOF teammates are supporting players.

If you want to be accurate, you should say that Shaq won with only 1 HOF teammate.

That's why it's a non-issue when you say Kobe won with only Shaq....you have the roles reversed.

But you didn't answer my question. Is it fair to say the 2004 Lakers had 4 HOF players and an all-star?

No. Former all star if you care to say that. Every time I have referred to all star I meant this year. The Celtics have 4 2011 all stars on their roster, the Heat 3... the Lakers 2. Kobe Bryant has had 1 or 0 all star teammates since being a teenager.

[wekko368]

No. Former all star if you care to say that. Every time I have referred to all star I meant this year. The Celtics have 4 2011 all stars on their roster, the Heat 3... the Lakers 2. Kobe Bryant has had 1 or 0 all star teammates since being a teenager.

The problem with that logic is that you're putting Rondo on par with prime Shaq. You make no distinction between an all-star reserve and one of the most dominant players of all time.

Shockingly, your misinformation favors Kobe....

[Yao Ming's foot]

Generally, when you say that an NBA legend has HOF teammates, that NBA legend is the best player on the team and the HOF teammates are supporting players.

If you want to be accurate, you should say that Shaq won with only 1 HOF teammate.

That's why it's a non-issue when you say Kobe won with only Shaq....you have the roles reversed.

But you didn't answer my question. Is it fair to say the 2004 Lakers had 4 HOF players and an all-star?

Exactly... Its only young Kobe that gets compared to prime Shaq. Thanks for making my point. Name the NBA legend who wouldn't be lesser than prime Shaq?

Based on that logic.. LeBron James (the best player in the league) could win the NBA title with his Olympic teammates and it would be considered more impressive than Kobe winning a title with Shaq and 10 bums.

[Yao Ming's foot]

The problem with that logic is that you're putting Rondo on par with prime Shaq. You make no distinction between an all-star reserve and one of the most dominant players of all time.

Shockingly, your misinformation favors Kobe....

Which definition would you prefer?

All Star Starters?

All NBA Players?

All Defensive team players?

HOFers?

[wekko368]

Exactly... Its only young Kobe that gets compared to prime Shaq. Thanks for making my point. Name the NBA legend who wouldn't be lesser than prime Shaq?

Based on that logic.. LeBron James (the best player in the league) could win the NBA title with his Olympic teammates and it would be considered more impressive than Kobe winning a title with Shaq and 10 bums.

Since you're wrong, I obviously haven't made your point. The problem is that you're treating Shaq as the "Robin" when he's actually "Batman".

In all your other examples, you're correctly identifying the Batman & Robins. But when it comes to Sha

[wekko368]

Since you're wrong, I obviously haven't made your point. The problem is that you're treating Shaq as the "Robin" when he's actually "Batman".

In all your other examples, you're correctly identifying the Batman & Robins. But when it comes to Shaq and Kobe, you keep mixing them up.

Go figure.

[wekko368]

Which definition would you prefer?

All Star Starters?

All NBA Players?

All Defensive team players?

HOFers?

You can only use those generalities when the players in question are comparable.

Who, in your opinion, is comparable to the "most dominant ever"?

[Steve_Francis_rules]

That's true about 1999. He only had one HOF teammate (David Robsinson). The other 3 teams featured 2 HOF teammates Parker and Ginobli. Of course you count them. You don't count Steven Jackson or Bruce Bowen because they are unlikely HOFers. Although Duncan was fortunate enough to have a teammate play 1st team all league defense for 5 straight years ( Kobe- 0) that's likely not enough to put him in the HOF.

So if Andrew Bynum continues to develop and becomes a dominating force in this league and a HOFer some day, that makes Kobe a choke artist because he failed to advance past the first round of the playoffs in 2006 and 2007 despite having a HOF teammate? That changes how much talent the previous two Lakers championship teams had because some guy from the team eventually became a HOF-caliber player?

Do you see how ridiculous this logic is?

If you're saying a guy has a HOF teammate in a given season, that player needs to be playing somewhere near his prime or it's just not worth mentioning at all.

And, by the way, Tony Parker is most likely not going to be in the HOF. He's only once made an All-NBA team (3rd in 2009), he's never been in the MVP discussion, he hasn't even been an all-star for most of his career, and his numbers are very modest. Manu Ginobili will be in the HOF, but not for his NBA career. So saying Tim Duncan had two HOF teammates in 2003, 2005, and 2007 is disingenuous at best.

[Yao Ming's foot]

Since you're wrong, I obviously haven't made your point. The problem is that you're treating Shaq as the "Robin" when he's actually "Batman".

In all your other examples, you're correctly identifying the Batman & Robins. But when it comes to Sha

I already recognized prime Shaq as the better player. He is also better than young Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Magic etc...

And?

Whats more impressive to you? Kobe winning titles with Shaq or Kobe winning a hypothetical title with the all league 2009 2nd and 3rd teams as his "help".


Tim Duncan
Yao Ming
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Paul Pierce

Bench
Brandon Roy
Carmelo Anthony
Chauncey Billups
Pau Gasol
Shaquille O'Neal
Tony Parker

He's the best player on this team therefore its worth more dur dur dur

[wekko368]

Whats more impressive to you? Kobe winning titles with Shaq or Kobe winning a hypothetical title with the all league 2009 2nd and 3rd teams as his "help".


You're confusing Batman & Robin again....

My point is, the more talent a team has relative to its contemporaries, the less impressive its victory is.

[crash5179]

Why did Dream need Barkley and Clyde to beat the supersonics in the mid 90's? Tainted?

Funny.

You should do some research before posting. No Clyde for the first championship and no Barkley for either championship.

[clippy]

They swept a top 5 defensive team. Stop making bull**** up.

The Lakers weren't playing top-5 defense when they met the Mavs. In fact, they had been playing bad basketball for over a month at that point. The Heat, conversely, are playing their best basketball right now.

[Yao Ming's foot]

You can only use those generalities when the players in question are comparable.

Who, in your opinion, is comparable to the "most dominant ever"?

Worthy AND Kareem
Parrish, Mchale, Johnson AND Walton
Pippen AND Rodman
Bosh AND Wade
Ginobli AND Parker

[clippy]

I can't think of another team that had three legitimate 25 plus point scorers all on the same team at once in their primes and all 3 of them are good or great defenders.

Agreed, but despite all of that, very few people here were picking the Heat to win it all, esp. after they started 9-8. It's fine to have a problem with their team before the season and stick with that opinion, but you can't change your stance now and call something "tainted" if you didn't feel that way all along.

[Yao Ming's foot]

So if Andrew Bynum continues to develop and becomes a dominating force in this league and a HOFer some day, that makes Kobe a choke artist because he failed to advance past the first round of the playoffs in 2006 and 2007 despite having a HOF teammate? That changes how much talent the previous two Lakers championship teams had because some guy from the team eventually became a HOF-caliber player?

Do you see how ridiculous this logic is?

If you're saying a guy has a HOF teammate in a given season, that player needs to be playing somewhere near his prime or it's just not worth mentioning at all.

And, by the way, Tony Parker is most likely not going to be in the HOF. He's only once made an All-NBA team (3rd in 2009), he's never been in the MVP discussion, he hasn't even been an all-star for most of his career, and his numbers are very modest. Manu Ginobili will be in the HOF, but not for his NBA career. So saying Tim Duncan had two HOF teammates in 2003, 2005, and 2007 is disingenuous at best.

He's in the Finals MVP discussion as the only international player with one. If you don't think hes getting with that on his resume you are nuts.

Speaking of which can you imagine if Gasol won the Finals MVP last year we would never hear the end of how the title was his and how Kobe has only one real ring. Just goes to show you how ridiculous Kobe is treated compared to every other player even fellow legends in the league.

[clippy]

I think his ring will be legit. But fact still stands that he'll still be the most hated player in the league outside of Miami fans.


It seems to me that a lot of former haters are coming around by LeBron's ridiculously good clutch play this postseason. It's like they finally realize how good this guy is, and has been for years.

[clippy]

Just goes to show you how ridiculous Kobe is treated compared to every other player even fellow legends in the league.

Kobe is only treated that way because his fanatic following and the media insists on overrating him and putting him in conversations with MJ, Magic, Bird, etc. when he is really in the next tier of players.

[Yao Ming's foot]

Kobe is only treated that way because his fanatic following and the media insists on overrating him and putting him in conversations with MJ, Magic, Bird, etc. when he is really in the next tier of players.

Yeah the tier above them

How many titles have those three won with only 1 all star or HOF teammate?

[wekko368]

Speaking of which can you imagine if Gasol won the Finals MVP last year we would never hear the end of how the title was his and how Kobe has only one real ring. Just goes to show you how ridiculous Kobe is treated compared to every other player even fellow legends in the league.

To be fair, Kobe's productivity has generally dropped in the finals.

And you won't ever have to worry about Gasol winning the finals MVP. Kobe will shoot enough (albeit at a lower percentage than Gasol) so that his sheer numbers will overshadow Gasol's....kind of like in the finals against Orlando.

[wekko368]

Yeah the tier above them

How many titles have those three won with only 1 all star or HOF teammate?

Jordan won with only Pippen.

So in that respect, Jordan and Shaq are similar in that they both won titles with only 1 HOF sidekick.

[clippy]

Yeah the tier above them

How many titles have those three won with only 1 all star or HOF teammate?

I'm not going to derail this thread with another Kobe v. the world discussion. Kobe has had a good career and he probably has a few more years left as a solid player; you'll find that from here on out, though, the MJ/Magic/Bird discussions will finally die down as he's come as close as he's going to get to these legends of the game.

[SuperMarioBro]

Yao Ming's Foot -- Answer me this one question as honestly as you can: Do you really think that Lebron James in the form he's been for any of the last five years or so, if he was in Kobe's stead, would not have been able to win a championship in Kobe's shoes in 2000-2002? Or even in 2009 and 2010?

I'll give you a hint: He would have won all of them, and with more ease.

[clippy]

Jordan won with only Pippen.

So in that respect, Jordan and Shaq are similar in that they both won titles with only 1 HOF sidekick.

Jordan had Rodman for three of his titles. However, this line of thinking is stupid because it doesn't rate the caliber of teammate. During the 2000-2002 run, Shaq was as dominant a player as there ever was and he would have won with any top swingman in the league.

[wekko368]

Jordan had Rodman for three of his titles. However, this line of thinking is stupid because it doesn't rate the caliber of teammate. During the 2000-2002 run, Shaq was as dominant a player as there ever was and he would have won with any top swingman in the league.

That's been my point all along...

I'm simply using yaoming'sfoot's flawed logic against him.

[Yao Ming's foot]

To be fair, Kobe's productivity has generally dropped in the finals.

And you won't ever have to worry about Gasol winning the finals MVP. Kobe will shoot enough (albeit at a lower percentage than Gasol) so that his sheer numbers will overshadow Gasol's....kind of like in the finals against Orlando.

Of course they have

As usual the attempted knock on Kobe is some sort of insane impossible standard. No player has ever faced more stacked level of defense in the Finals than Kobe.

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8

I'd love to see the player that thrives against sub 100 defensive rating defenses in the playoffs.

[Yao Ming's foot]

Yao Ming's Foot -- Answer me this one question as honestly as you can: Do you really think that Lebron James in the form he's been for any of the last five years or so, if he was in Kobe's stead, would not have been able to win a championship in Kobe's shoes in 2000-2002? Or even in 2009 and 2010?

I'll give you a hint: He would have won all of them, and with more ease.

Hasn't looked easy to me and thats with Bosh AND Wade AND dodging the top two teams in the Western Conference. Are we going to pretend that young Lebron James was the same defender that young Kobe was?

[wekko368]

Of course they have

As usual the attempted knock on Kobe is some sort of insane impossible standard. No player has ever faced more stacked level of defense in the Finals than Kobe.

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8

I'd love to see the player that thrives against sub 100 defensive rating defenses in the playoffs.

You're saying that good defensive teams make it to the finals?!?!?!

Stop the presses!!!!!

[clippy]

I'd love to see the player that thrives against sub 100 defensive rating defenses in the playoffs.

I'd love to see another "superstar" player that consistently shoots 40% against teams in the Finals, especially when he had an unstoppable giant shooting 60% for four of them. Kobe is one of the few players who has singlehandedly lost a Finals ('04) for his team because he was more concerned with winning a Finals MVP than winning a title.

[Yao Ming's foot]

I'd love to see another "superstar" player that consistently shoots 40% against teams in the Finals, especially when he had an unstoppable giant shooting 60% for four of them. Kobe is one of the few players who has singlehandedly lost a Finals ('04) for his team because he was more concerned with winning a Finals MVP than winning a title.

Kobe had the best stats out of any SG that faced that insane defense in the playoffs. :confused:

[Yao Ming's foot]

You're saying that good defensive teams make it to the finals?!?!?!

Stop the presses!!!!!

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8

vs

07 Spurs 99.9 (35% FG)
11 Mavericks 105.0

[clippy]

Kobe had the best stats out of any SG that faced that insane defense in the playoffs. :confused:

Kobe shot 35% and took twice as many shots as anyone on his team, especially egregious when he had a near-prime Shaq being guarded by a midget. He was completely frustrated by a 2nd year guy. You can try to spin it however you want, but you know as well as anyone here that that series was supposed to be a "formality" and Kobe blew it by being even more of a volume chucker than he normally is.

[Yao Ming's foot]

Kobe shot 35% and took twice as many shots as anyone on his team, especially egregious when he had a near-prime Shaq being guarded by a midget. He was completely frustrated by a 2nd year guy. You can try to spin it however you want, but you know as well as anyone here that that series was supposed to be a "formality" and Kobe blew it by being even more of a volume chucker than he normally is.

Did you ever look at the rest of the team as well? For how inefficient Kobe was he was still more efficient in the series than any other non Shaq shot attempt.

You can't just magically give Shaq 50 shots especially when he is shooting less than 50% from the FT line and expect to win the game.

Its amazing the lack of logic on display when it comes to slamming Kobe.

It would be like if I said the Cavs could have won but ball hog LeBron decided to gun for the MVP and take more and more 35% shot attempts when he could have just passed to Drew Gooden who shot 50%.

[clippy]

It would be like if I said the Cavs could have won but ball hog LeBron decided to gun for the MVP and take more and more 35% shot attempts when he could have just passed to Drew Gooden who shot 50%.

The difference between 2004 and 2007 is that the Lakers were the heavy favorites to win the Finals (most people crowned them champs after 0.4) and the Cavs shouldn't have even made the playoffs with that roster. Kobe wasn't the best player on his team and had no business taking twice as many shots as Shaq when he couldn't throw a pea in the ocean. LeBron had very few options and had to try to do it on his own, the same way he miraculously beat, ahem, those Pistons.

[Yao Ming's foot]

The difference between 2004 and 2007 is that the Lakers were the heavy favorites to win the Finals (most people crowned them champs after 0.4) and the Cavs shouldn't have even made the playoffs with that roster. Kobe wasn't the best player on his team and had no business taking twice as many shots as Shaq when he couldn't throw a pea in the ocean. LeBron had very few options and had to try to do it on his own, the same way he miraculously beat, ahem, those Pistons.

FGA
Kobe Bryant 113
Shaq 84


FTA
Shaq 55
Kobe Bryant 25

You think thats twice as many shots?

[Yao Ming's foot]

I wish clippy was the Lakers coach in 04. Every shot must be taken by Shaq. No matter what the defense is doing. No matter that the big man is shooting less than 50% from the FT line. Lakers would have won for sure.

[clippy]

Anyway, this thread is about LeBron, not Kobe. Much like the future.

[gmoney411]

Agreed, but despite all of that, very few people here were picking the Heat to win it all, esp. after they started 9-8. It's fine to have a problem with their team before the season and stick with that opinion, but you can't change your stance now and call something "tainted" if you didn't feel that way all along.

I can only speak for myself but I hated what the Heat did from the minute it happened. I wasn't sure if they would win it all this year but I had them as one of the three teams most likely to. I knew for sure that minus injuries or others players teaming up they would get a few over the course of the next 5-6 years.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

It would be like if I said the Cavs could have won but ball hog LeBron decided to gun for the MVP and take more and more 35% shot attempts when he could have just passed to Drew Gooden who shot 50%.

It's official. You are the worst poster in Clutchfans history. Not even goodbug would have compared prime Shaq to Drew Gooden in an attempt to make excuses for Kobe.

[bullardfan]

Pippen is more versatile, he's certainly taller, just as athletic and was the league's best defender (along with MJ). As far as credentials go, I always thought Pippen was underrated since he always played in MJ's shadow, but he led the Bulls to a finals berth once and a winning record for the years MJ was playing baseball. With Drexler, he seemed more of a Ray Allen type of player, a supporting cog rather than the guy you build around.

i guess you never watched any Portland games when RA and Drexler were there.

Also, you side-stepped my point about Drexler not being regarded as the GOAT if he was really on par with Jordan, nor seen as the greatest stumbling in his career.

was any other guard being regarded as the GOAT? any other player? There's a reason why the title is "GOAT". Drexler was one of the best guards in the league maybe the 2nd best for a while but there was still some distance between MJ and no. 2.

honestly I think this bit is pretty much all hype and legend. Anecdotes about MJ always portray him as a douchebag and a dick, he humiliated a rookie over and over for looking him in the eye when they scrimmaged. You mean to say that type of overbearing bully would actually take the time to mentor a young Pippen? The kind, caring mentor image doesn't fit with the cut throat competitor, why will MJ develop someone who might turn out to be better than him? You can even see the lack of respect Pippen has for MJ, telling other people they'd rather have a Pippen than an MJ and saying LBJ is already better than MJ etc. He probably wouldn't act like that if MJ really did mentor him like in the stories. From the stories I read MJ was more the aloof guy who beat the **** out of any bull who didn't perform, and Pippen was the player whom others turned to for guidance and leadership.

“It was the tremendous amount of respect that they had for each other,” Jackson said regarding why Pippen and Jordan’s relationship worked. “They both worked incredibly hard on their game, always putting in the extra work to be better players. They had an understanding of how to get a job accomplished and there was regular collaboration between the two of them that brought an incredible amount of success to that basketball team.”
-Phil Jackson

Everyday he took Jordan and stuck him with the worst players. Then took the other 4 starters and played them against Jordan. He pitted Jordan against Pippen every day, and that’s ultimately what made them both so fantastic. -Johnny Bach

so you're right and wrong. MJ prolly wouldn't have done it on his own but the coaching staff made him do it.

All I'm saying is the Heat now is comparable to the Bulls before, and everybody is giving the Heat all these flak when the Bulls before didn't get any.

Except they lacked the Chris Bosh of their generation (top 5 big man in the league). And comparing Dwade or LBJ to Pippen is a slap in the face to either of those players because they are/were both comparable to being the MJ of this generation (talent-wise in comparison to the other players in the league). I can see where they are comparable as far as lacking a center and a great PG though. Bibby is still pretty good though.

[dandorotik]

There are no such things as tainted championships. LeBron was a free agent, he took less to sign with Miami, he went about the announcement in an extremely poor manner, so that's a knock on him, but other than that, I'm fine with him. I mean, we have the opportunity to watch who could wind up being one of the top 5 players of all time- in our lifetime. It's a great time to be a basketball fan.

Anyone who doesn't enjoy watching Lebron, Dwayne, or Dirk is letting their prejudices get in the way of watching basketball played at its highest level. LeBron, Dwayne, and Dirk are the closest we may get to Magic, Michael, and Bird for a long time. Enjoy it while you can.

[jmwilliamson]

I'm so disappointed. I thought this thread would explain to me that the jeweler who makes NBA championship rings is from Cleveland and he intends to rub Lebron's ring on his taint.

[crash5179]

Yao Ming's Foot -- Answer me this one question as honestly as you can: Do you really think that Lebron James in the form he's been for any of the last five years or so, if he was in Kobe's stead, would not have been able to win a championship in Kobe's shoes in 2000-2002? Or even in 2009 and 2010?

I'll give you a hint: He would have won all of them, and with more ease.


SPECULATION

[BleedRocketsRed]

It can be tainted for a different reason than that of the first post.

Dallas is getting robbed. We all knew that this would happen but I really thought that Dallas was capable of not letting it get to them and playing perfect basketball but game 1 has me less than impressed. Not over yet tho.

[macalu]

will never understand the hate for Lebron. Lebron winning a ring isn't going to be anymore more tainted than the Rockets winning in 94 and 95....since you know, Jordan was out of the league. yet, i bet all Rockets fans continue to defend those championships.

[bongo33]

will never understand the hate for Lebron. Lebron winning a ring isn't going to be anymore more tainted than the Rockets winning in 94 and 95....since you know, Jordan was out of the league. yet, i bet all Rockets fans continue to defend those championships.

There's a difference between winning a ring when a player is out of the league then when three of the top 10 in the NBA join together through Free Agency...
Just saying

[BleedRocketsRed]

will never understand the hate for Lebron. Lebron winning a ring isn't going to be anymore more tainted than the Rockets winning in 94 and 95....since you know, Jordan was out of the league. yet, i bet all Rockets fans continue to defend those championships.

Jordan was in the league in '95.

Learn your history retard.

[RiceRockets]

So you can have a good team. But not too good. It's not fair when great basketball teams win championships.

LBJ should have made a poll on ClutchFans to let him know exactly which team crosses the line of too good to validate himself. Apparently there is this magic line of too much help that certain members of Clutchfans are privy to. Perhaps these arbiters of 'real' NBA Championships can let us know the secret. Two superstars, a star, and role players is too much. How about one superstar and three stars? Too far? Two superstars, role players, but the role players are borderline stars. Just under the limit? Three superstars and scrubs. Cool? Two superstars, two stars, but the stars are only defensive specialists. Where's the formula because I still can't figure it out.

I'm sure all the superstars in the NBA who are already eliminated from the playoffs are telling their GM's 'please don't get me any more help. No, wait, I mean I want help but make sure they aren't great.' I hope the Rockets follow suit, stay the course and don't get too many great players. I would have to stop watching if that were the case.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

There's a difference between winning a ring when a player is out of the league then when three of the top 10 in the NBA join together through Free Agency...
Just saying

Chris Bosh is not even close to being a top 10 player in the league. He's probably just outside the top 5 PFs. He's not as good as Lebron, Wade, Kobe, CP3, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard. That already puts him outside the top 10.

[macalu]

Jordan was in the league in '95.

Learn your history retard.

yet, no one out of houston recognizes either of those championships as legitimate.

[macalu]

There's a difference between winning a ring when a player is out of the league then when three of the top 10 in the NBA join together through Free Agency...
Just saying

i bet you would have had no qualms about Drexler, Barkley, and Olajuwon winning a championship in 96.

[wekko368]

i bet you would have had no qualms about Drexler, Barkley, and Olajuwon winning a championship in 96.

Are James, Bosh, and Wade currently in their primes?

In 1996, were Barkley, Olajuwon, or Drexler in their primes?

See the difference?

[knote32]

yet, no one out of houston recognizes either of those championships as legitimate.
That is false.

:)

[macalu]

Are James, Bosh, and Wade currently in their primes?

In 1996, were Barkley, Olajuwon, or Drexler in their primes?

See the difference?

lol...oh i see. if they're great players, it's not ok to win championships together.

[krnxsnoopy]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/71/miami_heat-haters_gonna_hate.jpg

[BleedRocketsRed]

i bet you would have had no qualms about Drexler, Barkley, and Olajuwon winning a championship in 96.

I am guessing that only applies to people of your age.

Which my guess is around 10-12?

Sound about right?

[wekko368]

lol...oh i see. if they're great players, it's not ok to win championships together.

lol...oh i see. you're an idiot.

[macalu]

I am guessing that only applies to people of your age.

Which my guess is around 10-12?

Sound about right?

close...35. but i wouldn't know anything about the rockets since i've only followed them since i was 10.

[krnxsnoopy]

http://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/images/h/haters_gonna_hate-14267.jpg

[BleedRocketsRed]

close...35. but i wouldn't know anything about the rockets since i've only followed them since i was 10.

Quit hanging around 10-12 year olds you ****ing creep.

[macalu]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/71/miami_heat-haters_gonna_hate.jpg

so true. i'm not even a fan but i'm not gonna crap on a player for wanting to win.

[Zboy]

It's a 2 star team.

Bosh is a role player and and the role definitely is not of a star.

Heat should trade Bosh away for some tough minded players when opportunity arises . Couple of more Haslem and Mike Miller type of players will help the Heat more than Chris Bosh will.

[Octavianus]

It's a 2 star team.

Bosh is a role player and and the role definitely is not of a star.

Heat should trade when opportunity arises for some tough minded players. Couple of more Haslem and Mike Miller type of players will help the Heat more than Chris Bosh will.

Really? Bosh played pretty well tonight, plays great team D, and hits shots from 18 feet, to free up room for Lebron and Wade.
He's a huge part of the team, and is one of the main reasons they are winning, because teams cannot leave him open.

[dandorotik]

Quit hanging around 10-12 year olds you ****ing creep.

Man, you've got some issues. Face it, your beloved MAVERICKS aren't winning the title- not this year, and probably not next year. They'll win the obligatory 1-2 games, giving the Mavericks fans some slim degree of hope, and they'll lose in 5 or 6.

LeBron's been a class act since he's been in the league. Doesn't take cheap shots, not in trouble outside the court, played hard and great all those years with the Cavs. He made a very stupid Decision, and Mr. Riley threw a very egotistical pre-season show. Sorry, but the hate for Lebron is really stupid- except if you live in Cleveland, that's understandable- although I'd put partial blame on the front office for thinking that Mo Williams or Jamison was the answer.

[htown11]

LeBron realized he needed more help to win a championship. He saw an opportunity to pair up with a great player in Wade and recruit an all star in Bosh. What exactly constitutes the word "tainted" within that thought process?

Smart move if you ask me. He could have kept on waiting and waiting in Cleveland, been a nice guy about the whole thing but instead saw an opportunity of a lifetime. He didn't "ask out" like so many guys do, he didn't demand the Cavs to look for a new home for him, he waited till free agency and left.

A great career choice that has obviously paid dividends fast.

Like others have said if you have beef with LeBron about how he handled "The Decision" that's completely fair, but if you have beef with him just for the sake of having beef then well.... "beefers gotta beef?"

[roslolian]

Really? Bosh played pretty well tonight, plays great team D, and hits shots from 18 feet, to free up room for Lebron and Wade.
He's a huge part of the team, and is one of the main reasons they are winning, because teams cannot leave him open.

They could have used the capspace on other guys who would have made life easier for their stars. How much more dangerous would they be if they spent the 15M they paid for Bosh for a 10M post guy (like say Scola), a better pg and some wing depth? Maybe then LBJ doesn't have to play 45 minutes a night and Wade wouldn't be breaking down.

[BleedRocketsRed]

Man, you've got some issues. Face it, your beloved MAVERICKS aren't winning the title- not this year, and probably not next year. They'll win the obligatory 1-2 games, giving the Mavericks fans some slim degree of hope, and they'll lose in 5 or 6.

LeBron's been a class act since he's been in the league. Doesn't take cheap shots, not in trouble outside the court, played hard and great all those years with the Cavs. He made a very stupid Decision, and Mr. Riley threw a very egotistical pre-season show. Sorry, but the hate for Lebron is really stupid- except if you live in Cleveland, that's understandable- although I'd put partial blame on the front office for thinking that Mo Williams or Jamison was the answer.

I wasn't even talking about LeBron in that post. I wasn't even talking about the Heat or Mavericks. I wasn't even talking to you. Wtf are you on? I was referring to his statement about "anybody outside of Houston considers the Rockets championships to be fake since MJ wasn't in the league" AFTER I pointed out that MJ played in '95.

Going to have to agree to disagree on LeBron being a class act.

[roslolian]

There's a difference between winning a ring when a player is out of the league then when three of the top 10 in the NBA join together through Free Agency...
Just saying

MJ played with both Pippen and Rodman in their primes. Unlike the heat the Bulls back then also had elite role players like Steve Kerr and some nice utility big men. The Lakers last year had two guys in the top 5, and they also had a deep bench, Boston's original big 3 had 3 superstars etc. etc.

Only difference is Miami was done through player power, while the rest of the players had to wait and beg their teams to make trades. Why you guys hate that I have absolutely no idea.

[wekko368]

MJ played with both Pippen and Rodman in their primes.

By the time Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman played together, Jordan was past his prime.

[Mr. Space City]

MJ played with both Pippen and Rodman in their primes.

rodman was in his mid 30's

[Octavianus]

They could have used the capspace on other guys who would have made life easier for their stars. How much more dangerous would they be if they spent the 15M they paid for Bosh for a 10M post guy (like say Scola), a better pg and some wing depth? Maybe then LBJ doesn't have to play 45 minutes a night and Wade wouldn't be breaking down.

There plan is to build there PG and Center ranks by FA, MLE next year, and by the way they are playing they made the right play by getting Bosh.
Bosh is quicker, younger, taller, better shooter, and better at team D then Scola.
You get the superstars first, then worry about role players.
Lebron can play 45mins a night, as he is super fit, Wade on the other hand, is getting spells from Miller and hopefully James Jones when he comes back from injury.

[Sleepy Flloyd]

By the time Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman played together, Jordan was past his prime.

Baaahahaha, dude was still droppin 50pts when he was 40 years old, michael jordan "past his prime" is a really misleading statement