The difference between MIA's "slow start" and NYK's slump

[Carl Herrera]

Basically, my argument is that the 9-8 Heat was an elite team and the post-trade Knicks are a .500 team.


If you want to read why, see the following. Otherwise, you can just go ahead and type "TL:DR" without bothering to read anything or really think about it.

Preliminarily, I know this could have gone in the Knicks thread, but am making a separate thread because I want to focus more on the methodology by which people measure basketball performance.

In any case, I've heard people in the media talking about how NY's slump after the Melo trade is similar to the 9-8 start of the Miami Heat and this shows that Amare/Melo/Billups will "turn it around" just like Miami's trio did once they adjust to each other.

This comparison strike me as invalid because Miami didn't really start the season badly.

"What do you mean? 9-8 is ass-sucking mediocrity!"

Well, it isn't when you consider the nature of the 9 and the 8. Miami's early season performance included double digit and even blow-out wins and losses that were mostly close, against good teams or on the road. When your game scoring margins look like this, it typically indicates that your team is better than its record and doesn't have a better record because of bad luck.

In other words, instead of worrying about why the Heat were only 9-8, we should realize their record was most likely to get better as the season goes on in the absence of other factors like major injuries, major trades or sudden changes in level of play (and record has improved, now standing at 50-22).

This is a point that the statistical analysis folks have made for a while now. For example, their "power rankings" adjust for margin of victory, strength of schedule, and the # of home vs. Road games. Morey, also, talks about how good teams blow opponents out rather than just win close games. In fact, when the Rockets won a bunch of close games during the middle of last season, Daryl Morey tweeted not about how the "gritty Rockets pull out another victory with their iron will" but about how the Rockets got lucky since close games are 50/50 propositions and if they continue to tempt fate, they'd start losing some games.

Basketball-reference.com has been tracking some "power ranking" type data during the course of this season: Schedule Adjusted Offensive/Defensive Ratings. They basically take the offensive rating and defensive rating of each team (measure by points scored/allowed per 100 possession), then adjust it based on the factors mentioned above.

Here's are the numbers as of November 26, 2010, when the Heat was 8-7 (they have numbers done weekly, so I don't have the precise number 2 games late):

In terms of adjusted "Overall" rating-- i.e. difference between offense and defense ratings, the 8-7 Heat were ranked 3rd overall. This was not an "average" team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8260

Now, I don't have the precise numbers for just the post-trade Knicks games, but...

Here's what they were at right before the trade: ranked 15th overall, with a rating of 0.36, their record was 29-26. A month later, they were still 15th overall, with a rating of 0.42, this is 2 games ago, when they were 35-36. Now, as of March 18, when they were 35-32 and before they lost 6 straight, they were 15th ranked, with a rating of .84.

So, what does this mean? My interpretation is as follows:

1. The Knicks were mediocre before the trade and remained mediocre after the trade. Average team was and is average.


2. Their losses have mostly been close ones, which doesn't hurt them in terms of the power ranking as much even though it still makes people feel bad. Basically, what it says is that the Knicks are an average team that got unlucky recently.

However, if they continue losing, we may want to consider changing out minds about this.

3. The team they lost wasn't really much better than the the team they have now.

[On a side note: Denver improved from 9th ranked with a 2.82 rating to 7th ranked with a 4.74 rating over the month after the trade. Seems that there is significant improvement there and the 12-4 run they went on reflects an real positive change even though that team, too, had to deal with major adjustments to its rotation and personnel.]


So, in any case while the Miami 9-8 start showed that they were an elite team that just got unlucky in some games, the Knicks recent records show that what they have is a mediocre team that got unlucky. What they have, just like what they had, is a .500 team.

[Shaud]

One big difference is Miami at least had some time to gel through training camp. I won't count preseason since Wade was hurt most of preseason.

NY whole team was dismantled and they lost even more depth with this trade. Until their stars learn to play some defense though they will not turn it around like Miami.

[Carl Herrera]

One big difference is Miami at least had some time to gel through training camp. I won't count preseason since Wade was hurt most of preseason.

NY whole team was dismantled and they lost even more depth with this trade. Until their stars learn to play some defense though they will not turn it around like Miami.

Denver also turned over a ton of players and they adjusted just fine.

The Knicks are not as bad as the 0-6 losing streak, but they are no better than a mediocre team, even if they had time for a training camp.

[t_mac1]

it's really simple. the heat wanted to play defense and that is their philosophy. at the beginning, they had to figure each other out offensively and how the roles will play out so that hurt them. but defense was something they all believed in and can fall back on during the tough times.

the knicks have more than enough talent right now to beat the teams they are losing to. the fact of the matter is they don't play defense. their coach and 2 best players all are offense-oriented. and i don't ever see them being contenders if they don't change that mindset. i mean, if you let the freakin' bobcats and bucks (2 of the worst offensive teams in the L) ring up 100+ points on you, your defense absolutely sucks.

tmac and yao had worse role players and terrible depth and we were still able to win 50+ games in their first year (despite a slow start in 04-05 b/c for the same reason: offensive roles). but they were able to weather that storm and do well b/c of defense.

defense wins in this L. and you just have to score enough. it has been proven time and time again.

EDIT: knicks have scored 105ppg since the melo trade (same # of points they did before the trade). but they are giving up 108ppg since the melo trade (3pts worse than before melo trade). defense has gotten WORSE (didn't know it was possible).

[BetterThanEver]

One big difference is Miami at least had some time to gel through training camp. I won't count preseason since Wade was hurt most of preseason.

NY whole team was dismantled and they lost even more depth with this trade. Until their stars learn to play some defense though they will not turn it around like Miami.

It goes both ways. None of the Knicks players that got transplanted to Denver had gone through training camp with the Nuggets players. The Nuggets are 0.700 in the last 10 games, while the Knicks are playing 0.100 ball.

[t_mac1]

It goes both ways. None of the Knicks players that got transplanted to Denver had gone through training camp with the Nuggets players. The Nuggets are 0.700 in the last 10 games, while the Knicks are playing 0.100 ball.

to his point, none of the knicks players who got traded are star players. it takes more time for star players to gel with a team than role players (i gave an example with tmac during his first month with us when we started 6-11 and tmac averaged only 20 points; and we all saw the heat struggles with TWO stars added).

the knicks will play better next year period b/c of the 2 stars alone and development of chemistry. but they don't want to be better, they want to be championship better, which won't happen with that type of defensive effort.

[Shaud]

Denver also turned over a ton of players and they adjusted just fine.

The Knicks are not as bad as the 0-6 losing streak, but they are no better than a mediocre team, even if they had time for a training camp.

That's true they did. I thought about that but some teams adjust differently. I don't think the Knicks are elite but I think they will be constantly fighting from 4-6 East for the next few years.

[BetterThanEver]

to his point, none of the knicks players who got traded are star players. it takes more time for star players to gel with a team than role players (i gave an example with tmac during his first month with us when we started 6-11 and tmac averaged only 20 points; and we all saw the heat struggles with TWO stars added).

the knicks will play better next year period b/c of the 2 stars alone and development of chemistry. but they don't want to be better, they want to be championship better, which won't happen with that type of defensive effort.

Actually, the Heat were winning shortly after the trade. The Knicks were winning games after the trade! They defeated the Miami Heat on the road, New Orleans Hornets, etc. They got worse after playing together longer.

Here are other superstar trades.
Pau Gasol and Lakers
Chauncey Billups and Nuggets(traded after only a few games)
Allen/Garnett and Celtics

We can even use the Rockets as an example, Clyde Drexler and the 1995 NBA Champs!

[HTown_TMac]

The problem lies with Superstars wanting to play their game vs. the coach wanting the players to play in the concept already established.

This is why Denver has played so well.. Role players playing their roles, and doing what is needed to be done. In NY, you have Melo wanting to do what he's always done, Amar'e wanting to do what he was doing before Melo, and the coach wanting everyone to play his type of ball. I didn't even mention the amount of defense being played..

[cheke64]

Miami issue- 2 superstars that are excellent slashers but don't shoot consistently and post up.

NYK issue- 2 superstars that are excellent shooters but don't slash to the basket consistently and post up.


The superstars are competing against each other rather than complementing each other. Last time I watched both teams played they havent fixed the problem.

[t_mac1]

Actually, the Heat were winning shortly after the trade. The Knicks were winning games after the trade! They defeated the Miami Heat on the road, New Orleans Hornets, etc. They got worse after playing together longer.

Here are other superstar trades.
Pau Gasol and Lakers
Chauncey Billups and Nuggets(traded after only a few games)
Allen/Garnett and Celtics

We can even use the Rockets as an example, Clyde Drexler and the 1995 NBA Champs!

they were winning off on a high. that was short-lived.

the trades you mentioned were bringing in 2nd fiddle stars to those teams. the lakers were still kobe's team and so on. clyde drexler knew hakeem was the better player. it's easier to fit in when you know your role.

with melo and amare, it's really not that simple. like i said with tmac and yao: who was #1 and #2? tmac deferred initially so much that it hurt us to a 6-11 record.

plus, the knicks don't play defense, which make matters worse.

they'll be much better next year trust me on that. but they're still not a championship caliber team until they play defense. if they did, they would be able to weather this bad stretch.

[peleincubus]

Miami issue- 2 superstars that are excellent slashers but don't shoot consistently and post up.

NYK issue- 2 superstars that are excellent shooters but don't slash to the basket consistently and post up.


The superstars are competing against each other rather than complementing each other. Last time I watched both teams played they havent fixed the problem.
Amare can't slash to the basket. Right...

[BetterThanEver]

they were winning off on a high. that was short-lived.

the trades you mentioned were bringing in 2nd fiddle stars to those teams. the lakers were still kobe's team and so on. clyde drexler knew hakeem was the better player. it's easier to fit in when you know your role.

with melo and amare, it's really not that simple. like i said with tmac and yao: who was #1 and #2? tmac deferred initially so much that it hurt us to a 6-11 record.

plus, the knicks don't play defense, which make matters worse.

they'll be much better next year trust me on that. but they're still not a championship caliber team until they play defense. if they did, they would be able to weather this bad stretch.

That's just another way of saying NYK's slump is not the same as Miami's "slow start". They just aren't that good.

[rockets934life]

Denver has done well since the trade but also consider two important factors as they did not trade for a star demanding touches and they received some VERY nice role players that fit perfectly while only losing Melo and Billups. It's much easier to get a group of role players to play together then trying to get two stars, each guy wants his touches and believes he is the man. Denver already had a legit center, PF, PG and SF in place so their rotation was nowhere near as effected.

The biggest difference between Miami's three and NY's two is defense...Miami plays it while NY doesn't. Defense can take a mediocre team and make it good. In Miami case, it kept them afloat and even now, they rarely lose a blowout, when they lose it is execution at the end of games not defensive breakdowns.

NY needs an offseason and big men, they just aren't very good or complete.

[pmac]

We could actually simplify this to 3 thing:

1. The heat have Lebron James and Dwyane Wade. You aren't going against the grain by saying Melo, while a good player, isn't close to that level. He isn't and yes the majority including the media knows this.

2. The Knicks lost much of their depth with the trade. Right now they're like Amare, Melo, and Billups with a bunch of players who aren't really playoff caliber role players

3. Melo and Billups don't really fit the Dantoni system. This is bad for a couple of reasons. A truly great wing should probably be versatile enough to play in any system. And, dantoni's system has never really proven to be successful. Is it worth keeping him around, limiting Melo's production, for a style of basketball that has never won a championship?

Neither of Amare and Melo are all time greats like Lebron, KG, Kobe, or Duncan. They can't contend without solid role players. This could change if they somehow acquire Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, or Deron Williams. People enjoy seeing Melo fail and likely see this as an opportunity to prove he's some sort of cancer that hurts his team but it's more accurate to say he's only about as effective as the players he was traded for combined (felton,chandler, and gallinari). Not that bad, just not Lebron.

[pmac]

Delete

[rolyat93]

Took Miami about 20 games to at least start to get rolling, The Knicks have had almost 20 this year now but no training camps, NYK has 2 one-sided stars, and nobody else. The Heat have two superstars and one one-sided rstar, and nobody else. The difference is that they were traded mid-season and have a much much weaker team.

[rockets4llday]

Wat if the got Dwight Howard next year?

[MambaJoe]

The difference between Heat and Knicks is the Heat are a much better defensive team and they want to play defense unlike the Knicks. Plus the Heat big 3 is overall better.

Amare is a better player than Bosh but not by a huge margin. Wade and Lebron James are both are one of the top players in the league. Melo is a good player but he is not anywhere near the level of James and Wade. Both James and Wade alone can take over a playoff series. I just don't see Melo or Amare being able to do so like the guys in Miami.

The Knicks have 2 stars on their roster. But they will never be as good as the Heat because their star players are not as good as the stars in South Beach. The Yao Ming and Tmac combo is actually better than the Melo and Amare combo. Tmac and Yao together are better than Amare and Melo and even so, the Rockets were never really successful. Tmac in his prime, is a much better player than Melo is today. He is a gifted player with amazing passing ability. That is the reason why Tmac was so dominant. Yao is pretty much unstoppable when he's on the low post. But even that, the Rockets never really did any damage.

I look at the Knicks and think of how the ROckets used to be with Yao and Tmac. They will have their successes but mostly disappointments. Those 2 aren't good enough to compete with the big powers like the Heat, Celtics and even the Bulls. The Knicks will have their flashes, they will score lots of points but also give up a lot of points.

[MambaJoe]

It dont matter if the Heat needed like 20 games to start rolling and gelling together. The Knicks will need time to start rolling too. To me, the Heat struggling isn't a concern because their potential is too great.

A lot of people believes the Knicks will start rolling together and be successful like the Heat. They will be pretty good, but not as good as the Heat simply because their star players isn't as good as the players in South Beach.

[BetterThanEver]

A lot of people believes the Knicks will start rolling together and be successful like the Heat. They will be pretty good, but not as good as the Heat simply because their star players isn't as good as the players in South Beach.

You just contradicted yourself with your 2nd sentence.

[conquistador#11]

Media and fans are so obssessed with their "superstar" search that they forget that basketball is a team sport. Five really good players that committ to the offensive and defensive philosophies can put an arse kicking on any "two superstars".

To me, there are only a few players that you can call superstars because of the way they impact every aspect of the game. Just because they make ESPN orgasm does not make them superstars.
The other thing I'm hearing is that NY will be fine.. it's easy to get role players. I think getting the missing pieces is just as difficult as finding "superstars". It takes a competent GM to find the right chemistry.

[cheke64]

Amare can't slash to the basket. Right...

he can but he just doesnt do it. Just like Kobe can get to the basket at will but somehow they don't do it as much.

[Mathloom]

I think that the current Knicks roster would be competing for homecourt advantage if they had a defensive coach rather than Mike D'Antoni.

Really, D'Antoni's system does not suit Billups, Douglas, or Melo. This Knicks team is not built well, and the Knicks know it. But it's worth it to acquire Melo, because it's not as difficult to get a damn good coach, and then it's just a matter of a couple of cheap additions and minor trades.

The only concern I'd have is that Billups' game is slowing down considerably and I don't think he wants to be in New York.

[A_3PO]

Random thoughts during halftime of KU/VCU why the situations are different:

1. The two superstars in Miami (LBJ & Wade) are indeed superstars. Legit top-5 players. Plus they have a great 3rd wheel in Bosh. The two guys in NY are stars, but not superstars. The talent difference between LeBron+Wade and Amare+Melo is truly significant. It's a gaping sieve when you add Bosh in.

2. The two leaders in Miami are very smart basketball players. The two guys in NY aren't dummies, but neither guy has a high b-ball IQ.

3. The two leaders in Miami have some experience playing together, are genuinely friends and like each other. The two Knicks stars have games that do not mix well because neither is a good facilitator for the other. In fact, neither is good at facilitating for other players in general.

3. Miami had a training camp together.

4. I hate to harp on this, but D'Antoni just isn't that great a coach. His limitations are on full display.

5. Melo and George Karl did not like each other, but Melo realized that Karl knew his stuff and he respected him for it. After coming to the Knicks, Melo figured out that D'Antoni isn't half the coach Karl is. IMO, Melo doesn't have any respect for D'Antoni and never will. To suddenly go from playing for a basketball encyclopedia to a shallow, one-sided coach like D'Antoni has to be tough. Melo's recent words show complete disrespect for his new coach.

6. Because he is so immature, Melo has already retreated into self-preservation mode. As long as he puts up his points, he's all good. With the losing streak, he doesn't care so much about winning right now. His concern is escaping blame and pinning it on D'Antoni.

Back to March Madness.

[JuanValdez]

I think it's too early to expect NY to be good. They just gutted their team to get Anthony and Billups. Last offseason, when Miami picked up the superfriends, we all said, 'but they gutted their whole team to do it!' Then they managed to pick up Mike Miller, and Ilgauskas, and Bibby, etc. They rebuilt their roleplayers pretty quickly. NY hasn't had the chance to do that yet. The other shoe will drop for them this offseason. More guys will come to play with the NY Big 3 and they'll be good next season. They don't need to be good this season.

Picking up a coach like Adelman will help a bunch too.

[BONIERO1576]

This team will continue to get better as it adds players to fill certain spots but its ceiling is pretty low as long as they have D'Antoni as a coach. Until then they are '07-Phoenix-light and they are going to suffer in the playoffs until they commit themselves to stopping and outrebounding the other team.

[roslolian]

Denver also turned over a ton of players and they adjusted just fine.

The Knicks are not as bad as the 0-6 losing streak, but they are no better than a mediocre team, even if they had time for a training camp.

One thing you didn't account for though is the salary aspect of the deal, and why its so bad on so many levels. Pre-trade NY only had long term commitements to Amare, and even he was signed to a discount (i.e. over FA instead of trade). This meant NY had a chance to trade for both Cp3 and Melo form their own big 3. However with the Melo extension you can basically write that off, the Knicks made sure they will be paying the highest "superstar" in the league for a long time, Melo will be making more than DH, Durant, Lebron, CP3, Deron, Rose and basically every superstar you can think off.

So I think there's a world fo difference pre trade and post trade NY. Pretrade NY had flexibility and promise of getting better. POst trade NY will be mediocre for the forseeable future. And that's not counting how awful Melo's shooting has been recently.

[roslolian]

I think it's too early to expect NY to be good. They just gutted their team to get Anthony and Billups. Last offseason, when Miami picked up the superfriends, we all said, 'but they gutted their whole team to do it!' Then they managed to pick up Mike Miller, and Ilgauskas, and Bibby, etc. They rebuilt their roleplayers pretty quickly. NY hasn't had the chance to do that yet. The other shoe will drop for them this offseason. More guys will come to play with the NY Big 3 and they'll be good next season. They don't need to be good this season.

Picking up a coach like Adelman will help a bunch too.

They don't really have the cash to get those guys. Miami had the big 3 mystique to draw vets and they had the mid-level to spend on Miller.

NY oth probably won't get the MLE; its under discussion to be cut. Also Melo is a notorious ballhog, I'm not sure I know anyone just dying to play with him, esp. with their season unravelign right before our eyes.

Plus, the vets Miami got haven't exactly helped a lot. Right now no sub in Miami is averaging more than 9 pts a game.

[expressmart]

i agree

[Easy]

Simply put:

LeBron + Wade >> Amare + Melo

[MONON]

it's really simple.

defense wins in this L. and you just have to score enough. it has been proven time and time again.

Defense is the difference between the post trade Knicks & Nuggets and the Heat. The Heat had a good defense, but needed better offensive players to go with Wade. James is Wade's equal on both ends of the court. Bosh fills in nicely as the 3rd offensive option & is ok defensively. They added players to fill specific roles. They had training camp (minus Wade) to get to know each other. The season has been a "training camp" (if you will) to work every one in with Wade for the playoffs

The Nuggets had a pg to take over for Billups. In trading Melo, they got rid of a defensive black hole & added role players that could fill in around Nene, Martin & Smith. Now Karl has a team that can play team offense and team DEFENSE. Plus they have draft picks & some financial flexibility to add players to improve.

The Knicks now a star (Amare) that can play D'Antoni's run & gun system and a star (Melo) that flourishes a half court 1 on 1 system. They don't match and none of the 3 knows a lick of Defense. The Knicks also lost their team depth & financial flexibility to add star or role players.

IMO for the next 5 years; the Heat are NBA finals contenders, the Nuggets are 2nd round contenders and the Knicks are playoff contenders.

[SamFisher]

The difference is actually that Anthony in particular is a bad fit for the 2 superstar model - both Wade and James can dish out 10+ assists a night when they want to, Anthony either can't or won't, and therein lies the problem.

Stoudemire's optimal pairing is with a good PG or a swingman who can/will pass it (McGrady, mid 2000's era), Carmelo isn't either.

[javal_lon]

Simply put:

LeBron + Wade >> Amare + Melo

Martin + Scola>> Amare + Melo...excluding 4th quarter scoring

[JuanValdez]

They don't really have the cash to get those guys. Miami had the big 3 mystique to draw vets and they had the mid-level to spend on Miller.

NY oth probably won't get the MLE; its under discussion to be cut. Also Melo is a notorious ballhog, I'm not sure I know anyone just dying to play with him, esp. with their season unravelign right before our eyes.

Plus, the vets Miami got haven't exactly helped a lot. Right now no sub in Miami is averaging more than 9 pts a game.

I agree with you that changes to the CBA are a threat to completing the NY roster. But, I do think there will be talented role-players who will want to come to NY (if they can't get a spot in Miami) and may give a discount to do so.

In the case of both Miami and NY, they don't need role-players to score much. The superfriends will do most of that anyway. They need guys who can play defense, grab rebounds, and hit open jumpers.

[A_3PO]

The difference is actually that Anthony in particular is a bad fit for the 2 superstar model - both Wade and James can dish out 10+ assists a night when they want to, Anthony either can't or won't, and therein lies the problem.

Stoudemire's optimal pairing is with a good PG or a swingman who can/will pass it (McGrady, mid 2000's era), Carmelo isn't either.
This.

When both stars are volume shooters that don't create for other players, it's a bad mix. In addition to being passers, LBJ & Wade are also both better and smarter players than Melo or Amare.

At some point Melo might grow up and realize he has to grow his game into assisting others, but he ain't there yet.

[A_3PO]

I agree with you that changes to the CBA are a threat to completing the NY roster. But, I do think there will be talented role-players who will want to come to NY (if they can't get a spot in Miami) and may give a discount to do so.

In the case of both Miami and NY, they don't need role-players to score much. The superfriends will do most of that anyway. They need guys who can play defense, grab rebounds, and hit open jumpers.
I don't think the Knicks will be anything close to a magnet like the Heat because Melo and Amare (correctly) aren't viewed as being in the same class as players. The burden on the Knicks to shore up their roster in the offseason is immense.

I also don't think D'Antoni is viewed as a coach that will take players to the promised land.

[Easy]

The difference is actually that Anthony in particular is a bad fit for the 2 superstar model - both Wade and James can dish out 10+ assists a night when they want to, Anthony either can't or won't, and therein lies the problem.

Stoudemire's optimal pairing is with a good PG or a swingman who can/will pass it (McGrady, mid 2000's era), Carmelo isn't either.

Wade, James, Stoudemire, and Anthony, all four of them are great scorers. But only two of them are also great play makers. You know who those two are. That's the same as saying that Wade and James are simply better players than Stoudemire and Anthony.

The two at Miami are legit elite franchise players. The two at New York are quasi elite franchise players.

[TheRealist137]

Martin + Scola>> Amare + Melo...excluding 4th quarter scoring

what? Amare and Melo are better at every facet of the game than martin and scola, even defense, as sad as that seems.

[t_mac1]

Wade, James, Stoudemire, and Anthony, all four of them are great scorers. But only two of them are also great play makers. You know who those two are. That's the same as saying that Wade and James are simply better players than Stoudemire and Anthony.

The two at Miami are legit elite franchise players. The two at New York are quasi elite franchise players.

those 2 also play defense. if your best players don't play defense, its very hard for the rest of the team to follow unless you have a great defensive coach, and we all know that is not d'antoni.

you saw yesterday a great defensive "effort" by the knicks simply b/c amare and melo actually tried to play defense in that game. it wasn't shut-down defense, but the effort was there. now if you're a knicks fan, you can only hope that happens more frequently. even mike breen was pissed off wondering why melo doesn't play defense every game.

i think this is the key reason why the knicks are struggling. they simply don't have the inclination to play defense, and play it consistently.

[SamFisher]

Wade, James, Stoudemire, and Anthony, all four of them are great scorers. But only two of them are also great play makers. You know who those two are. That's the same as saying that Wade and James are simply better players than Stoudemire and Anthony.

The two at Miami are legit elite franchise players. The two at New York are quasi elite franchise players.

How many big men who focus primarily inside the paint rather than on the wings are great playmakers, in terms of setting up teammates, compared to Wade/James? Probably none. Maybe Tim Duncan for a few years in his prime. Unfair to put that label on Amare because that's simply not his role.

[Easy]

How many big men who focus primarily inside the paint rather than on the wings are great playmakers, in terms of setting up teammates, compared to Wade/James? Probably none. Maybe Tim Duncan for a few years in his prime. Unfair to put that label on Amare because that's simply not his role.

Fair enough about play making not Stoudemire's role. What about Anthony? He plays the same position as James. Also, as supposedly elite big man, Amare should do the big man things a lot better than the Miami duo. Look at their combined numbers:

Stoudemire + Anthony
Career: 46.6 ppg; 15.2 rpg; 4.6 apg; 2.0 spg; 2.0 bpg
10-11: 50.8 ppg; 15.6 rpg; 5.4 apg; 1.8 spg; 2.4 bpg
(Anthony did worse in rebounding in NY. All other stats are about the same as in Denver.)

James + Wade
Career: 53.1 ppg; 12.2 rpg; 13.3 apg; 3.5 spg; 1.8 bpg
10-11: 52.2 ppg; 14.1 rpg; 11.2 apg; 2.9 spg; 1.7 bpg

In the two "big man" stats, rebounds and blocks, Amare and Melo have an edge but not by much. And LeBron and Wade blow them away in assists and steals, and are slightly better in scoring this year (much better in career).

The Miami Duo is simply much more talented than the New York Duo.

[apollo33]

Fair enough about play making not Stoudemire's role. What about Anthony? He plays the same position as James. Also, as supposedly elite big man, Amare should do the big man things a lot better than the Miami duo. Look at their combined numbers:

Stoudemire + Anthony
Career: 46.6 ppg; 15.2 rpg; 4.6 apg; 2.0 spg; 2.0 bpg
10-11: 50.8 ppg; 15.6 rpg; 5.4 apg; 1.8 spg; 2.4 bpg
(Anthony did worse in rebounding in NY. All other stats are about the same as in Denver.)

James + Wade
Career: 53.1 ppg; 12.2 rpg; 13.3 apg; 3.5 spg; 1.8 bpg
10-11: 52.2 ppg; 14.1 rpg; 11.2 apg; 2.9 spg; 1.7 bpg

In the two "big man" stats, rebounds and blocks, Amare and Melo have an edge but not by much. And LeBron and Wade blow them away in assists and steals, and are slightly better in scoring this year (much better in career).

The Miami Duo is simply much more talented than the New York Duo.

Not a lot of small forwards could pass like Lebron, even elite players. I mean look at Durant, great scorer like Anthony, but lacks the passing ability of Lebron. The forward to pass like Lebron was Tmac, in fact Lebron has better court vision than a lot of pg's.

[A_3PO]

those 2 also play defense. if your best players don't play defense, its very hard for the rest of the team to follow unless you have a great defensive coach, and we all know that is not d'antoni.

you saw yesterday a great defensive "effort" by the knicks simply b/c amare and melo actually tried to play defense in that game. it wasn't shut-down defense, but the effort was there. now if you're a knicks fan, you can only hope that happens more frequently. even mike breen was pissed off wondering why melo doesn't play defense every game.

i think this is the key reason why the knicks are struggling. they simply don't have the inclination to play defense, and play it consistently.
Actually, the Knicks won yesterday because the Magic were stuck with Gilbert "Flat Tire, Broken Wheel" Arenas playing 43 minutes at PG. The Magic were missing 3 rotation players due to injury. Even with all of that, it took two incredibly bone-headed decisions by Howard and J-Rich very late in the game for the Knicks to win.

Maybe the psychological effect will be profound because they broke the losing streak, but last night's win was not impressive to me. But winning a game may lift a burden and help the Knicks start playing better.

I'm still looking forward to them getting flattened by the Heat or Celts in the 1st round.

[t_mac1]

Fair enough about play making not Stoudemire's role. What about Anthony? He plays the same position as James. Also, as supposedly elite big man, Amare should do the big man things a lot better than the Miami duo. Look at their combined numbers:

Stoudemire + Anthony
Career: 46.6 ppg; 15.2 rpg; 4.6 apg; 2.0 spg; 2.0 bpg
10-11: 50.8 ppg; 15.6 rpg; 5.4 apg; 1.8 spg; 2.4 bpg
(Anthony did worse in rebounding in NY. All other stats are about the same as in Denver.)

James + Wade
Career: 53.1 ppg; 12.2 rpg; 13.3 apg; 3.5 spg; 1.8 bpg
10-11: 52.2 ppg; 14.1 rpg; 11.2 apg; 2.9 spg; 1.7 bpg

In the two "big man" stats, rebounds and blocks, Amare and Melo have an edge but not by much. And LeBron and Wade blow them away in assists and steals, and are slightly better in scoring this year (much better in career).

The Miami Duo is simply much more talented than the New York Duo.

lebron and wade are 2 of the top 3 players in this league. it's unfair to compare anybody with those 2. no one will argue they are much more talented than amare/melo.

[Easy]

lebron and wade are 2 of the top 3 players in this league. it's unfair to compare anybody with those 2. no one will argue they are much more talented than amare/melo.

That's my point. The OP tries to compare the two teams' "slumps". To compare the Knicks with the Heat is to compare their respective top players, and there really is no comparison. Miami is better hands down.