Lake Pirates? [Archive]

rimrocker

10-05-2010, 05:05 PM

Saw this on the news this morning, and... I'm dubious...

Mexico Lake Pirate Shooting Story Questioned
Mexican DA "Not Sure" of Tiffany Hartley's Account That Husband was Shot in Head; Tiffany Responds
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/05/earlyshow/main6928537.shtml

Mexican officials and American authorities are still searching for the body 30-year-old David Hartley. The American tourist and his wife Tiffany Hartley were jet skiing on a lake that straddles the U.S. and Mexico when Tiffany says they were ambushed by gunmen.

But is that how it really happened?

"Early Show" co-anchor Erica Hill reports there are new questions about what happened that day. Police in Mexico want to know if what Tiffany Hartley says happened is actually the truth.

Hill said there's still no sign of American tourist David Hartley four days after he was reportedly shot in the head by suspected pirates on a lake along the Mexican border.

His wife, Tiffany, 29, made a desperate 911 call after reportedly racing to his aid, but says she was chased away by gunfire.

In a 911 call, Tiffany said she saw three boats. He is now presumed dead and his body has not been recovered.

And now Mexican authorities are questioning whether the attack took place at all. In a statement, Marco Antonio Guerrero Carrizales, district attorney for the Miguel Aleman Province, writes, "We are not sure. We are not certain that the incident happened the way they are telling us."

The district attorney questions why his body has not been recovered, particularly because they were told he was wearing a life vest and why there is no sign of his jet ski. In fact, the district attorney contends, no evidence exists that a crime was committed.

In response to these new questions by the district attorney, Tiffany Hartley said from McAllen, Texas, on "The Early Show" said she can understand the questions, but said the Mexican authorities have not been looking for him.

"As far as we know, we don't think they have been looking. And there is -- we understand the possibility that the people who did this probably have him. And that's why maybe they can't find him," she said.

Pam and Dennis Hartley, David's parents, said they need to get on the Mexican side of the border to look for their son.

Pam said, "There's been no searching on that side much the lake. I mean, we're pleading to Mexican president, to Governor Perry, to President Obama, to Hillary, help us bring our son -- Tiffany's husband --home. It's like we need to get over there and hunt for him. If nobody's hunting, how can he be found?"

As for Nikki, Tiffany's sister-in-law, she says she supports her "one thousand percent," in spite of the new questions being raised. She held Tiffany's hand throughout the interview.

"There's no doubt in our mind we stand behind her," she said. "She's just not a sister-in-law, she's a sister."

"Early Show" co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez asked Tiffany, "You were returning from a day of sightseeing with David when this happened. I know that you had lived in Mexico for three years before moving back to the U.S. a couple of months ago. Did you know that there had been a spate of robberies on the lake? And did you have any concerns about going out that day?"

Tiffany replied, "We had heard about the pirates, and them robbing fishermen and whoever were over there. But we hadn't heard anything for several months. So, no, we had no concerns whatsoever of going over there, living in Reynosa, I mean, you live there for two and a half years, and we're not people who, you know, blend in. We stand out. We don't blend in. And we lived there, and we lived a life of no fear. That we were not going to stop living our life and adventures. David loves the history. That's what he loves. And that's why we were there that day."

SamFisher

10-05-2010, 05:10 PM

B-Bob

10-05-2010, 05:19 PM

"driving"? (*snicker*)

Buck Turgidson

10-05-2010, 05:25 PM

No idea what happened in this case, but there were several armed robberies on the lake earlier this spring/summer.

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/mexican-pirates-prey-on-boaters-on-texas-lake/19495275

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/29/AR2010052903707.html

DonkeyMagic

10-05-2010, 05:27 PM

YallMean

10-05-2010, 05:37 PM

Staged death for insurance money?

Raven

10-05-2010, 05:58 PM

No sh-t.

Regardless of its truth, it's a good excuse though for redneck militia minutemen wingnuts to go driving around in bassboats with shotguns, blathering incoherently about John Paul Jones. So it's got that working for it.

If you don't like it, put pressure on the government to secure the border from criminal activity. This woman could be lying through her teeth, but no one is disputing that the USA/Mexican border is a beehive of lawlessness, and more and more citizens are justifiably angry over the government continuing to do nothing about it, other than a few empty gestures.

Classic

10-05-2010, 06:00 PM

Staged death for insurance money?

there ya go...

SamFisher

10-05-2010, 08:18 PM

If you don't like it, put pressure on the government to secure the border from criminal activity. This woman could be lying through her teeth, but no one is disputing that the USA/Mexican border is a beehive of lawlessness, and more and more citizens are justifiably angry over the government continuing to do nothing about it, other than a few empty gestures.
I'm disputing it. This year and last - crime in most border regions in the US is down, and illegal immigration is actually down too.

Don't let facts and reality get in the way of morons parading around borders shooting guns and playing fantasy though, like Governor Jan Brewer and her made-up "beheadings in th desert".

Pole

10-05-2010, 08:51 PM

I'm disputing it. This year and last - crime in most border regions in the US is down, and illegal immigration is actually down too.

That's only because crazed wingnuts made such a stink about crime and illegal immigration that the feds responded by putting a LOT more boots on the ground there. Meanwhile, there's enough crime on the other side to make up the difference........you know.........the side where they claimed this took place.

VooDooPope

10-05-2010, 10:08 PM

I think I'll start my own Merry Band of Pirates on Lake Travis. I'm going to target the boats with the hot chicks on them though, not guys on Jet skis.

And how does a person on a jet ski get caught anyway. I think once I saw a boat of pirates with one squeeze of the thumb I'd be gone.

Major

10-05-2010, 10:41 PM

That's only because crazed wingnuts made such a stink about crime and illegal immigration that the feds responded by putting a LOT more boots on the ground there.

The wingnuts only took up the immigration cause wholeheartedly this year. The crime trends have been going on for at least 3 or 4 years now.

Pole

10-05-2010, 11:37 PM

The wingnuts only took up the immigration cause wholeheartedly this year. The crime trends have been going on for at least 3 or 4 years now.

Huh!?! I remember this being an issue before Obama even took office. I guess "wholeheartedly" is your qualifier. This issue has been ramping up for years.........along with increased border security. Why the hell else do you think our crime statistics along the border may have eased up a bit when things are becoming increasingly more bat **** crazy just across the border.

The cynic in me doesn't want to believe some woman who says her husband was shot by "lake pirates," but I'm not comfortable coming out in public and calling her a liar when mayors across the border are being executed left and right.

I realize the fact that this probably plays right into the crazed minute-men's plans doesn't sit well the clutchfan's cadre of back slappers, but come on........we need a bit more evidence before suggesting this woman is lying (which is basically the same as suggesting she murdered her husband).

BTW Major..........I'm not as nearly as informed or as fact savvy as you are, but it took me two seconds to google this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5196778

Like I said, this has been ramping up for years.

Major

10-06-2010, 12:07 AM

Huh!?! I remember this being an issue before Obama even took office. I guess "wholeheartedly" is your qualifier. This issue has been ramping up for years.........along with increased border security. Why the hell else do you think our crime statistics along the border may have eased up a bit when things are becoming increasingly more bat **** crazy just across the border.

Sorry. To clarify, immigration has always been an agenda item. Bush tried to push immigration reform during his administration and the fence has been a topic for a long time, and it was part of Obama's campaign platform. But as far as being a vote driver and something that really forced government action, that happened this year. The Arizona thing is when immigration really took off as a national topic of importance, and when the Obama admin sent more troops to the border. I can't find the poll offhand, but post-Arizona, the % of people that considered immigration an "important topic" (or something similar) spiked from what it was earlier. If I recall correctly, it also spiked in importance for a bit somewhere in 2006 or 2007 as well when Bush was dealing with the issue.

That's what I was referring to with the crazies. It didn't become a primary tea party issue until it exploded with Arizona. Until then, it was just sort of a background issue, but not something that really drove the national conversation.

SamFisher

10-06-2010, 08:27 AM

That's only because crazed wingnuts made such a stink about crime and illegal immigration that the feds responded by putting a LOT more boots on the ground there. Meanwhile, there's enough crime on the other side to make up the difference........you know.........the side where they claimed this took place.
So your argument that "THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING NOTHING ABOUT IMMIGRATION SO ITS EXPLODING SO WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING" is that "THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING LOTS OF STUFF TO STOP IMMIGRATION AND ITS DECREASING "

Please note, your theory also requires the use of a time machine (immigration started to decrease prior to the late 2009/early 2010 vintage of hysteria.)

I have a theory that this thing called economics may be more responsible.

Pole

10-06-2010, 08:53 AM

So your argument that "THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING NOTHING ABOUT IMMIGRATION SO ITS EXPLODING SO WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING" is that "THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING LOTS OF STUFF TO STOP IMMIGRATION AND ITS DECREASING "

Please note, your theory also requires the use of a time machine (immigration started to decrease prior to the late 2009/early 2010 vintage of hysteria.)

I have a theory that this thing called economics may be more responsible.

My feelings on immigration aren't strong enough in either direction to really argue much about.........much less use all caps. Having many relatives in the healthcare industry, I'm empathetic to their concerns about what a drag illegal immigrants are on the healthcare system, but I'm also pretty fond of Hispanic culture and empathetic to how they are being maligned in all of this.

I'm just not crazy about the tone in this discussion. I think this woman is an innocent victim until proven otherwise, and it sure seems like some of you are using the story of her husband's probable death as nothing more than a vehicle to push your agenda.............at her expense.

Surfguy

10-06-2010, 08:55 AM

These people must be as stupid as the people who hiked too close to Iran. They knew Mexico has cartels running rampant and all near the border areas. Yet, they ride jet skis down to the Mexico side? They must be really dumb or something stinks about this case.

As was said, insurance fraud? Better check what is set up and how much she would get in the case of her husband's death.

We've seen it before. Nothing surprises me anymore. It's nice the in-laws are so firm in their belief that she couldn't possibly be involved...but we've seen great acting before. For all we know, she shot her husband, tied him to the jet ski, and sank it to the bottom of the lake.

jo mama

10-06-2010, 09:26 AM

SamFisher

10-06-2010, 09:33 AM

the fact that there is no body or jet ski doesnt automatically make her a liar - the pirates (yarghh) more than likely would have retrieved the body and jet ski and took them back into mexico rather than leave evidence behind for u.s. or mexican authorities to find.
So they went through the trouble of murdering and hiding the body in their jet-ski heist, but they left an eyewitness and a jet-ski behind? All my years of watching Horatio Cain have taught me never to believe the story in the first 5 minutes.

Surfguy

10-06-2010, 09:48 AM

So they went through the trouble of murdering and hiding the body in their jet-ski heist, but they left an eyewitness and a jet-ski behind? All my years of watching Horatio Cain have taught me never to believe the story in the first 5 minutes.

It appears, Mr. Fisher, that the jet ski disappeared and took the victim along for the ride.

YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SamFisher

10-06-2010, 09:53 AM

It appears, Mr. Fisher, that the jet ski disappeared and took the victim along for the ride.

YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, Frank, either our friends across the border cooperate, or we're stuck with a classic......Mexican Standoff.

rocketsjudoka

10-06-2010, 09:56 AM

That's only because crazed wingnuts made such a stink about crime and illegal immigration that the feds responded by putting a LOT more boots on the ground there. Meanwhile, there's enough crime on the other side to make up the difference........you know.........the side where they claimed this took place.

To follow up on Sam's post this argument seems to undercut the rhetoric of those strongly concerned about illegal immigration. Its basically saying that far from this being a crisis and the Fed not doing anything it is a problem being resolved and the Fed is doing a lot.

I also agree that the economy has much more to do with this. Immigration is mostly job driven.

justtxyank

10-06-2010, 10:05 AM

I heard that the police initially did not believe her but now have a witness supporting her story.

jo mama

10-06-2010, 10:08 AM

So they went through the trouble of murdering and hiding the body in their jet-ski heist, but they left an eyewitness and a jet-ski behind?

i dont know and neither do you.

the woman claims they chased her away and its plausible that while she was going for help the pirates (yarrrgh) scooped up the body and jet ski and took them back to mexico. again, just b/c there is no body doesnt make her a liar. seeing as how there have already been a few instances of pirates (yarrrgh) attacking fishermen on falcon lake i dont think you can automatically dismiss her story. until she is proven to be a liar im willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

but no one is disputing that the USA/Mexican border is a beehive of lawlessness
I'm disputing it.

of course you are.

JuanValdez

10-06-2010, 10:45 AM

of course you are.

Well, it's not just him, since a few months ago there were a bunch of articles in the papers about the low crime rates in most counties along the border. The rampant lawlessness along the border is disputed.

Pole

10-06-2010, 10:47 AM

The rampant lawlessness along OUR SIDE OF the border is disputed.

Fixed.

rocketsjudoka

10-06-2010, 10:52 AM

Is anyone else disappointed that the term "pirates lair" has not been used once in this story?

Seriously though I feel bad for this women but I don't think we can completely drop all skepticism considering the Susan Smith case and the case in Boston where a man killed his wife and claimed that random criminals had did it.

krosfyah

10-06-2010, 11:29 AM

The wingnuts only took up the immigration cause wholeheartedly this year. The crime trends have been going on for at least 3 or 4 years now.

uh.... the boarder fence was approved under W's watch. I'd consider that a wholehearted effort started years ago.

peleincubus

10-06-2010, 11:44 AM

SamFisher

10-06-2010, 01:22 PM

seeing as how there have already been a few instances of pirates (yarrrgh) attacking fishermen on falcon lake

Can you point to a single documented jet-ski hijacking on that lake in the past? thanks. PS I'm not sure if there has or has not been, just asking if you know of any.

of course you are.
of course i am. Because it's something that's ACTUALLY TRUE BECAUSE IT IS BACKED BY EVIDENCE TENDING TO INDICATE ITS TRUTH. What side are you on - the side backed by hyperbole, conjecture and hysteria? If so, why?

bnb

10-06-2010, 01:37 PM

I really hope the guy's fine...but I'm OK with pirates (or anyone else) attacking jet skis.

It must really suck to be a lake pirate. All your pillaging and plundering confined by the shores. Landlubbers on all sides. No open seas. Not so much a sea dog as a lake puppy. Aaaaarghhhhh!

jo mama

10-06-2010, 06:12 PM

Can you point to a single documented jet-ski hijacking on that lake in the past? thanks.

you must have been absent from "law school" the day they taught basic reading comprehension. i made no mention of jet-skis. i said "there have already been a few instances of pirates (yarrrgh) attacking fishermen on falcon lake". i dont fish so maybe im wrong, but im pretty sure you wont catch bass while jammin' out on jetskis.

PS I'm not sure if there has or has not been, just asking if you know of any.

from post #4.
http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/mexican-pirates-prey-on-boaters-on-texas-lake/19495275

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/29/AR2010052903707.html

as you like to tell others - "read up or shut up".

of course i am. Because it's something that's ACTUALLY TRUE BECAUSE IT IS BACKED BY EVIDENCE TENDING TO INDICATE ITS TRUTH. What side are you on - the side backed by hyperbole, conjecture and hysteria? If so, why?

wow! so all the murders, executions, mayors and police chiefs being killed, having to shut down roads in el paso b/c of a gunfight in juarez, 70 murdered central americans, almost daily gun-battles b/t gangs and military and now pirates (yarghh) are not examples of lawlessness along the mexican/american border. thats such a relief! last time i went thru nuevo laredo there were freaking tanks on the street, but that must have just been my hysteria-induced imagination running wild! everything is fine folks! sam says so!

SamFisher

10-06-2010, 08:26 PM

you must have been absent from "law school" the day they taught basic reading comprehension. i made no mention of jet-skis. i said "there have already been a few instances of pirates (yarrrgh) attacking fishermen on falcon lake". i dont fish so maybe im wrong, but im pretty sure you wont catch bass while jammin' out on jetskis.

So - let's take this step by step.

Were the people out fishing on their Sea-Doos?

Otherwise, you are unable to identify a single jet-ski hijacking on this lake, correct?

Y/N?

wow! so all the murders, executions, mayors and police chiefs being killed, having to shut down roads in el paso b/c of a gunfight in juarez, 70 murdered central americans, almost daily gun-battles b/t gangs and military and now pirates (yarghh) are not examples of lawlessness along the mexican/american border. thats such a relief! last time i went thru nuevo laredo there were freaking tanks on the street, but that must have just been my hysteria-induced imagination running wild! everything is fine folks! sam says so!

Again, let's take it step by step.

Step 1.

Are you arguing that incidences of crime in the US border region has increased from, say, 2008 to 2010?

Y/N

If your answer is Y - on what do you base this assessment?

Step 2.

Are you arguing that illegal immigration has increased or decreased from 2008 to 2010

Simple question. Incrase or decrease.

Again, I ask you on what do you base your conclusion.

Thanks jo, in advance, for your thoughtful response. :)

jo mama

10-07-2010, 09:35 AM

So - let's take this step by step.

Were the people out fishing on their Sea-Doos?

Otherwise, you are unable to identify a single jet-ski hijacking on this lake, correct?

Y/N?

your reading comprehension sucks. i never claimed there were other jet-ski hijackings on the lake. i pointed to documented instances of pirates (yarghh) robbing fishermen on the lake earlier in the year. the articles have been posted for you multiple times, but you have conveniently ignored them.

Again, let's take it step by step.

Step 1.

Are you arguing that incidences of crime in the US border region has increased from, say, 2008 to 2010?

i have not made an argument one way or the other - again, your reading comprehension really sucks. but for anyone to claim that the usa/mexican border is some family-friendly candyland is ignorant. i am aware of the reports showing that violence on the american side went down in 08 and 09 - it was ugly for a few years (05-07) so its not surprising that things got better. but these statistics were put out before the zetas broke away earlier this year and all hell broke loose on the border. we will have to see what the numbers will look like next year, but i suspect they will go up.

but no one is disputing that the USA/Mexican border is a beehive of lawlessness

I'm disputing it.

as you can see, raven specifically said the "usa/mexican" border. you are the one trying to just make it the american side. and yes, lawlessness is a problem on the usa/mexican border.

Step 2.

Are you arguing that illegal immigration has increased or decreased from 2008 to 2010

where have i said anything in this thread about illegal immigration? here is yet another case of you trying to argue w/ someone about something they never said. pathetic, but typical.

you obviously have some weird agenda here - you came into this thread 5 minutes after it was started and went off on some rant about minutemen and revolutionary war heroes. i suggest you read up on the issue at hand before further posting.

SamFisher

10-07-2010, 10:11 AM

your reading comprehension sucks. i never claimed there were other jet-ski hijackings on the lake. i pointed to documented instances of pirates (yarghh) robbing fishermen on the lake earlier in the year. the articles have been posted for you multiple times, but you have conveniently ignored them.

I'm not ignoring them I read them - that's why the story of a random jet-ski hijacking doesn't make any logical sense and the fact that, as you admit such an event has never previously occurred it tends to make it seem more, rather than less, improbable.

as you can see, raven specifically said the "usa/mexican" border. you are the one trying to just make it the american side. and yes, lawlessness is a problem on the usa/mexican border.
Umm, yeah this argument is in response to the position that yahoos have to run around the border with shotguns shooting at brown people because the U.S.government is not " secure[ing] the border from criminal activity"

Statistics indicate that this is indeed happening.

Are you aware that the US government's jurisdcition over the border region is necessarily confined to US territory? That's the locus of the discussion, and the terms of debate are necessarily confined thereto.

If you think it's not, then I guess you are arguing that minutemen and other morons should ride around Mexico shooting at potential lake pirates?

good luck and god speed with that bit of retardation.

AroundTheWorld

10-07-2010, 10:39 AM

justtxyank

10-07-2010, 11:17 AM

You have been arguing semantics on this thread. As you realized that you were talking nonsense, you retreated to that, typical second-class lawyer trick.

What difference does it make whether it was a jetski that was hijacked before or a boat? If gangsters steal a boat, why would they not steal a jetski?

Because they've never done it before!!!!

If someone hasn't done something before, they aren't going to do it ever!

errrr...

Anyway, like I posted earlier, the police apparently have another witness who supports the woman's theory.

jo mama

10-08-2010, 08:42 AM

I'm not ignoring them I read them - that's why the story of a random jet-ski hijacking doesn't make any logical sense and the fact that, as you admit such an event has never previously occurred it tends to make it seem more, rather than less, improbable.

just b/c something has never happened before does not mean it cant. seems like one of those basic concepts they would teach on the first day of "law school".

and the fact that pirates have attacked american fishermen on lake falcon makes this womans story plausible. there is clearly a precedent for pirate attacks - jetski or not. just b/c pirates have not attacked anyone on jetskis in the past does not automatically make her a liar. very poor logic on your part sam.

Umm, yeah this argument is in response to the position that yahoos have to run around the border with shotguns shooting at brown people because the U.S.government is not " secure[ing] the border from criminal activity"

no, you disputed the claim that the us/mexican border is a "beehive of lawlessness". all you are doing now is trying to backtrack away from your ignorant comments. you can point to all the statistics you want, but it doesnt change the facts of this story. or are you arguing that b/c statistics say that crime is down on the border that this story cannot be true? i didnt go to any fancy-pants "law school", but even i know the fallacy of that position.

who in this thread has said "yahoos have to run around the border w/ shotguns shooting at brown people"? you are the primary one in this thread trying to make it an issue over minutemen, illegal immigration and crime statistics, none of which has anything to do w/ the thread topic or pirates on lake falcon. as i already pointed out, you came into this thread 5 minutes after it was started and went off on some rant about the minutemen and rednecks, all the while ignoring the topic at hand.

Statistics indicate that this is indeed happening.

ok - what does that have to do w/ pirates on lake falcon?

Are you aware that the US government's jurisdcition over the border region is necessarily confined to US territory? That's the locus of the discussion, and the terms of debate are necessarily confined thereto.

raven specifically said "the us/mexican border is a beehive of lawlessness". that would include mexico. you are trying to change the goalposts here and you know it. and since the attack took place in mexican waters the "terms of the debate" should not be confined to just the american side.

If you think it's not, then I guess you are arguing that minutemen and other morons should ride around Mexico shooting at potential lake pirates?

good luck and god speed with that bit of retardation.

again, you are trying to argue w/ someone about something they never said. i have not said anything about minutemen - you are the primary one in this thread bringing them up. again, minutemen, illegal immigrants and border town crime statistics have nothing to do w/ this story and only someone suffering from a bout of "retardation" would try to bring them into this thread.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 09:02 AM

just b/c something has never happened before does not mean it cant. seems like one of those basic concepts they would teach on the first day of "law school".

Why do you keep putitng "Law school" in quotes? Is it supposed to be funny like when you repeated pirates-yargh (tee hee!) again? :confused:

And no dumbass, they don't teach that on the first day. Have you seen "The Paper Chase"? It's burnt and hairy hand on the first day. Duh.

raven specifically said "the us/mexican border is a beehive of lawlessness". that would include mexico. you are trying to change the goalposts here and you know it. and since the attack took place in mexican waters the "terms of the debate" should not be confined to just the american side.
WIth respect to minutemen and secure the border militia and "beheaadings in the desert" - it very necessarily is.

Also - if you don't want to argue about the minutmen and that ilk, then I suggest you not participate in a discussion about them - I'm the one who brought it up.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 09:05 AM

delete

REEKO_HTOWN

10-08-2010, 09:07 AM

I call Bull****.

http://exiledonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/ashley-todd.jpg

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 09:07 AM

Why do you keep putitng "Law school" in quotes? Is it supposed to be funny like when you repeated pirates-yargh (tee hee!) again? :confused:

And no dumbass, they don't teach that on the first day. Have you seen "The Paper Chase"? It's burnt and hairy hand on the first day. Duh.

Honestly I would be embarrassed if law school felt the need to teach you that things can happen that haven't happened before. I'm slightly puzzled that you seem to be using the "it's never happened before" excuse here though Sam.

Pirates have made attacks on boats on this lake before (allegedly)
Woman claims pirates attacked her on jet ski
Police claim a witness supports her story

Your argument is since pirates had never attacked a jet ski on the lake before this seems unlikely? The only new variable is that it was a jetski instead of a boat. That doesn't seem like a huge leap...

thegary

10-08-2010, 09:10 AM

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7638/piratejetski.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/piratejetski.jpg/)

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 09:22 AM

Honestly I would be embarrassed if law school felt the need to teach you that things can happen that haven't happened before. I'm slightly puzzled that you seem to be using the "it's never happened before" excuse here though Sam.

Pirates have made attacks on boats on this lake before (allegedly)
Woman claims pirates attacked her on jet ski
Police claim a witness supports her story

Your argument is since pirates had never attacked a jet ski on the lake before this seems unlikely? The only new variable is that it was a jetski instead of a boat. That doesn't seem like a huge leap...
No, my argument is pretty clear - "somebody robbed a fisherman before!" is not the same as "somebody randomly shot one or two jet-ski people then hid the body" - you don't have to be a criminal psychologist to discern why.

Pretty simple, I guess Jo mama has a wedgie from another internet battle.

AroundTheWorld

10-08-2010, 09:27 AM

Has anyone else noticed that SamFisher's spelling gets worse the more excited and defensive he becomes in a discussion, as he realizes that he is "losing the argument"?

That's not really helpful for a lawyer.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 09:27 AM

No, my argument is pretty clear - "somebody robbed a fisherman before!" is not the same as "somebody randomly shot one or two jet-ski people then hid the body" - you don't have to be a criminal psychologist to discern why.

Pretty simple, I guess Jo mama has a wedgie from another internet battle.

I see, but it doesn't seem to be that big of a leap to believe that these pirates were trying to rob this couple and things went bad.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 09:30 AM

I see, but it doesn't seem to be that big of a leap to believe that these pirates were trying to rob this couple and things went bad.
then you build in another logical leap that they decide to rob a jet-ski (for what, $100 resale value?) and hide the body but leave a living witness on another jet ski....

AroundTheWorld

10-08-2010, 09:34 AM

then you build in another logical leap that they decide to rob a jet-ski (for what, $100 resale value?) and hide the body but leave a living witness on another jet ski....

A jetski is more valuable than $ 100. Also, you are once again changing your argument. Before, you constantly harped on "it has never happened before". Now you are making a somewhat more reasonable argument about why they would hide a body and leave a living witness. But that is not what you were unsuccessfully basing your argument on before.

Castor27

10-08-2010, 09:36 AM

Blood evidence found to support her.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/08/earlyshow/main6938718.shtml

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 09:43 AM

then you build in another logical leap that they decide to rob a jet-ski (for what, $100 resale value?) and hide the body but leave a living witness on another jet ski....

They didn't leave a living witness, she got away. And I don't know, seems like a lot of the murders that are committed south of the border involve hiding bodies somewhere.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 09:47 AM

(CBS) Zapata County's sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez has told CBS News he has blood evidence from the lifevest of Tiffany Hartley, the wife of David Hartley, that supports her account of a pirate attack on a lake that straddles the Texas-Mexico border.

Gonzalez told Teague he believes the Hartleys were attacked by enforcers of the Zeta drug cartel. The Hartleys, Gonzalez says, were innocent victims of a bloody drug war.

Gonzalez said, "There are problems along the border. Whether you admit it or not there are problems and it's spillover violence."

Gonzalez said, "What I've told them is, 'I need a body. Give me a body, guys, and everything will go away. Give a body guys and the news media will go away.'" Gonzales fears the same cartel enforcers who killed David have permanently hidden his body.

Teague added on "The Early Show" that search for David Hartley's body in cartel-controlled waters is so dangerous for Mexican authorities, they had to briefly suspend searching for a time on Wednesday. He added, the good news, there has been no report of any actual violence against searchers and the search was back on Thursday and expected to begin again Friday.

Some relevant snips from that article.

So there is blood evidence supporting her claim, a witness supporting her claim, and the sheriff supports her claim and accepts it as not only viable, but fact. I don't know anything about the sheriff (maybe Mr. Gonzalez is just a racist teabagger!!!!) but if the story works for him that's good enough for me Mr. Fisher.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 09:47 AM

They didn't leave a living witness, she got away. And I don't know, seems like a lot of the murders that are committed south of the border involve hiding bodies somewhere.
Maybe she got away because they didn't exist.

So there is blood evidence supporting her claim.

There's blood on the lifejacket. This also supports my claim that she and OJ Simpson knifed her husband and hid the body.

Do you see the problem here?

a witness supporting her claim

IIRC, she claims there is a witness who says they saw her motoring away and a boat in the vicinity - again, this supports my claim that she and OJ murderd him and stashed his body on the boat.

Cohete Rojo

10-08-2010, 09:50 AM

then you build in another logical leap that they decide to rob a jet-ski (for what, $100 resale value?) and hide the body but leave a living witness on another jet ski....

Now you are assuming the pirates were after the jet-ski for monetary value, perhaps they saw it as a fast inconspicuous means to smuggle drugs. Or they could have been after a possible kidnapping for ransom or any money they had on themselves.

Then again, this is what people have been saying from the get-go.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 09:51 AM

Maybe she got away because they didn't exist.

Explain to me what you think is happening here because it doesn't make sense to me. Do you think she murdered her husband? Do you think this is all staged to get publicity to Falcon Lake?

I know nothing about Falcon Lake, but apparently there is in fact a drug cartel that uses it and controls the waters. Apparently it got dangerous and the Mexican government stopped searching for this body for a short time. The sheriff on the American side believes the story. There is apparently a history of violence from this group on this lake.

Why is this such a hard story to believe? I am fine with being skeptical, but there doesn't appear to be any significant reason to doubt this woman is telling the truth.

AroundTheWorld

10-08-2010, 09:53 AM

Why is this such a hard story to believe? I am fine with being skeptical, but there doesn't appear to be any significant reason to doubt this woman is telling the truth.

From his previous comments on the thread, it seems like his reasons to doubt her story are more political.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 09:53 AM

There's blood on the lifejacket. This also supports my claim that she and OJ Simpson knifed her husband and hid the body.

Do you see the problem here?

Except your theory is illogical. Her story isn't illogical except to you.

Shame on both sides of the "immigration debate" that it has come to this. A violent episode occurs on a lake and we have to debate what really happened because anti-illegal immigration people want to use it (falsely) to demonstrate that Mexican immigration is bad and pro illegal immigrant groups want to discredit it to show that Mexicans are violent.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 09:59 AM

Explain to me what you think is happening here because it doesn't make sense to me. Do you think she murdered her husband? .
Maybe. That's the way it usually happens on CSI.

Her story isn't illogical except to you.
Oh please, her story and what little you and I know about it can easily be interpreted as logical or illogical...why do deadly paramilitary zetas who are running millions of dollars worth of drugs bother knocking over tourists in order to fence hot used jet skis for a couple of bucks each?

Why does this deadly group of paramilitaries commit an elementary mistake of allowing a live eyewitness to get away, yet bother to cover the tracks anyway with military precision?

Why do they decide to go jetskiing in a lake that you are telling me is a deadly dangerous hellhole?

Maybe she's telling the truth, who knows as of right now.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 10:01 AM

Maybe. That's the way it usually happens on CSI.

LOL OK. I'm trying to have a serious discussion with you Sam. If you want to resort to this stuff I'll leave you to another fruitless debate with the other guys in the thread.

rocketsjudoka

10-08-2010, 10:06 AM

Geeezzzz.... Lets just say that there have been reports of criminal activity targeting watercraft before on the lake which may lend credence to Hartley's claim that her husband was murdered.

I have some skepticism of her story but arguing about jetskis just seems anal.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 10:07 AM

LOL OK. I'm trying to have a serious discussion with you Sam. If you want to resort to this stuff I'll leave you to another fruitless debate with the other guys in the thread.
if you want to have a serious discussion - what does this even mean?

pro illegal immigrant groups want to discredit it to show that Mexicans are violent.

Geeezzzz.... Lets just say that there have been reports of criminal activity targeting watercraft before on the lake which may lend credence to Hartley's claim that her husband was murdered.

I have some skepticism of her story but arguing about jetskis just seems anal.
It is anal - capital crimes and prosecutions are very anal and detail oriented. See CSI.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 10:12 AM

if you want to have a serious discussion - what does this even mean?

I mistyped what I was trying to say.

People who are anti-illegal immigration (as in the hardline right wingers) want to use this story as another example of why Mexican immigration is a terrible problem for America. Look at the drug cartels! Do we want them here?

Liberals don't want the story be to true because they don't want the hardline right wingers to have a story that they can hold up to back up their rhetoric.

rocketsjudoka

10-08-2010, 10:15 AM

It is anal - capital crimes and prosecutions are very anal and detail oriented. See CSI.

That's fine if we are on the set of Law and Order but we are not. In general I agree with your position but arguing over jetskis just seems more of a distraction than substantive.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 10:31 AM

That's fine if we are on the set of Law and Order but we are not. In general I agree with your position but arguing over jetskis just seems more of a distraction than substantive.
The facts of the case surround an alleged jet-ski hijacking, a jet-ski murder and then an alleged jet-ski escape - how is that a distraction?

Liberals don't want the story be to true because they don't want the hardline right wingers to have a story that they can hold up to back up their rhetoric
As pointed out, it doesn't really back up rhetoric - U.S. immigration laws and the enforcement thereof don't extend to the locus of this incident. There's a logical disconnect between "Arizona needs to check the papers of a brown guy mowing the lawn because a jet-ski hijacking went bad 1000 miles away."

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 10:44 AM

As pointed out, it doesn't really back up rhetoric - U.S. immigration laws and the enforcement thereof don't extend to the locus of this incident. There's a logical disconnect between "Arizona needs to check the papers of a brown guy mowing the lawn because a jet-ski hijacking went bad 1000 miles away."

I agree it doesn't back up the rhetoric logically, but that doesn't mean incidents like this aren't used to bolster the immigration law argument of the right.

rocketsjudoka

10-08-2010, 10:56 AM

The facts of the case surround an alleged jet-ski hijacking, a jet-ski murder and then an alleged jet-ski escape - how is that a distraction?

And jetskis are watercraft and Jo Mama pointed out that there have been prior reports of crime targeting watercraft. You are making a semantics argument with little meaning. I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but I doubt just arguing about the class of watercraft is that material.

As pointed out, it doesn't really back up rhetoric - U.S. immigration laws and the enforcement thereof don't extend to the locus of this incident. There's a logical disconnect between "Arizona needs to check the papers of a brown guy mowing the lawn because a jet-ski hijacking went bad 1000 miles away."

I agree with you there.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 11:01 AM

And jetskis are watercraft and Jo Mama pointed out that there have been prior reports of crime targeting watercraft. You are making a semantics argument with little meaning. I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but I doubt just arguing about the class of watercraft is that material.

.
It's not a semantics argument it's a forensics argument, and there's a lot of meaning when you're discussing crime and motive. Robbing an armored car and a teen taking a joyride are both unauthorized uses of vehicles, but at the core they are different events for more than just "semantics".

An attempted robbery of a jet-ski rider seems like mugging a jogger - what's the point? They don't have any money on them.

AroundTheWorld

10-08-2010, 11:24 AM

An attempted robbery of a jet-ski rider seems like mugging a jogger - what's the point? They don't have any money on them.

I have been on jetskis and have had money on me. There are actually even special compartments under the seat to store your stuff (including money). You can have money on you on a jetski as much as you can have it on a boat. Plus, the jetski itself represents a monetary value. Plus, drug cartel gangsters may not be completely rational and only kill because they want to make money, but just for the sake of killing or defending "their" area.

Depressio

10-08-2010, 11:30 AM

AroundTheWorld

10-08-2010, 11:32 AM

Not quite sure why so many people love to make snap judgments before any sort of evidence or some claim is refuted. You'll have egg on your face if you're wrong. Maybe it makes y'all happy in the pants when you turn out to be correct sometimes?

We all don't know. I just got into that discussion because someone was acting like he does, and trying to follow his little condescending routine in the process, while making several flawed arguments.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 11:40 AM

It's not a semantics argument it's a forensics argument, and there's a lot of meaning when you're discussing crime and motive. Robbing an armored car and a teen taking a joyride are both unauthorized uses of vehicles, but at the core they are different events for more than just "semantics".

An attempted robbery of a jet-ski rider seems like mugging a jogger - what's the point? They don't have any money on them.

You are assuming facts not in evidence counselor.

We do not know that they were attempting to rob the jetski for financial gain. They could have targeted the watercraft as a useful addition their fleet. They could have valued the riders as potential ransom money. They could have been under the false impression that the jetskiers saw something they did not want reported. Etc. , etc.

What we know is that she was on the lake with her husband on a jetski and that she returned alone. We have her story that she was attacked by pirates on the lake and that her husband was killed. We have a witness who apparently backs up the claim and blood on the lifejacket. We have prior incidents of hostility by lake pirates on this lake. We have the local sheriff saying that the cartel is violent and controls a portion of the lake, and we have the Mexican government temporarily ending the search for the body because they felt the cartel posed them a threat.

It seems like it takes more of a logical leap to think she is simply lying and all of this is some elaborate attempt on her part to either cover up a murder or drum up political support for something than it does to believe her. You are bitterly clinging to the type of watercraft robbed for some strange reason because you apparently DON'T WANT HER STORY TO BE TRUE.

She may not be telling the truth, I have no idea, but there isn't anything to suggest she is lying based on what we know, even the fact that it was a jetski she was on and not a boat.

rimrocker

10-08-2010, 11:46 AM

To sum up so far...

We have an unnamed witness saying the gal was seen being chased back to the US side by a boat.

We apparently have some blood on a life jacket that has not been directly tied to the guy.

We have an odd Sheriff (Gonzalez, Zapata County) who is a bit of a publicity hound and has a history of histrionics regarding border issues.

We have another Sheriff (Cuellar, Webb County... who happens to be the brother of US Congressman Henry Cuellar, also heavily involved in the case) saying the gal is not suspected of anything criminal.

The gal has hinted she "may" take a lie detector test.

Given all this, and considering the egos in play and the political aspect, we don't really know much.

I'm still dubious and awaiting solid info.

rimrocker

10-08-2010, 11:50 AM

I should also point out that as far as I can tell, we do not know the Mexican government stopped searching because of threats from the cartel. The only source for that comes from Sheriff Gonzalez, who doesn't strike me as the most reliable guy. Other sources, including US Congressman Cuellar and the Mexican Government suggest the search was halted temporarily because of weather.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 11:56 AM

You are assuming facts not in evidence counselor.

We do not know that they were attempting to rob the jetski for financial gain. They could have targeted the watercraft as a useful addition their fleet. They could have valued the riders as potential ransom money. They could have been under the false impression that the jetskiers saw something they did not want reported. Etc. , etc.

What we know is that she was on the lake with her husband on a jetski and that she returned alone. We have her story that she was attacked by pirates on the lake and that her husband was killed. We have a witness who apparently backs up the claim and blood on the lifejacket. We have prior incidents of hostility by lake pirates on this lake. We have the local sheriff saying that the cartel is violent and controls a portion of the lake, and we have the Mexican government temporarily ending the search for the body because they felt the cartel posed them a threat.

It seems like it takes more of a logical leap to think she is simply lying and all of this is some elaborate attempt on her part to either cover up a murder or drum up political support for something than it does to believe her. You are bitterly clinging to the type of watercraft robbed for some strange reason because you apparently DON'T WANT HER STORY TO BE TRUE.

She may not be telling the truth, I have no idea, but there isn't anything to suggest she is lying based on what we know, even the fact that it was a jetski she was on and not a boat.
LOL - bitterly clinging? I don't really have skin in the game, I'm just pointing out potential holes in her story as any good investigator would do. I may be wrong, you may be right. What's weird is that you seem to want me to admit that I'm compelled by your version of events rather than somewhat skeptical - I don't think either of us is in a sufficiently informed position here to be so vehement about it (to the extent where you appear to be exaggerating some aspects, as rimrocker pointed out).

However, it wouldn't be the first time an alleged victim claimed unnamed, anonymous perpetrators for crimes that nobody witnessed and then turned out to be the culprit. It happens taht way on CSI and in real life all the time.

By the way, it's illogical for you to say "THIS LAKE HAS A HISTORY OF ROBBERIES!" on the one hand, and then lambaste me for assuming it's a robbery on the other hand - I'm simply using your own assumption in order to build a theory of the incident.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 12:01 PM

LOL - bitterly clinging?

Before I continue reading I wanted to point out that this particular line from my post was meant to be taken in jest. I'm sorry it fell flat.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 12:05 PM

Before I continue reading I wanted to point out that this particular line from my post was meant to be taken in jest. I'm sorry it fell flat.
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side.

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 12:06 PM

I don't really have skin in the game,

You seem to be taking a particularly strong interest in this thread, and seem to be particularly sure she is lying for someone who doesn't "really have a skin in the game."

I'm just pointing out potential holes in her story as any good investigator would do. I may be wrong, you may be right. What's weird is that you seem to want me to admit that I'm compelled by your version of events rather than somewhat skeptical - I don't think either of us is in a sufficiently informed position here to be so vehement about it (to the extent where you appear to be exaggerating some aspects, as rimrocker pointed out).

FWIW, I'm not sure she's telling the truth. I have no idea one way or another. And I wasn't exaggerating any points, I pulled them directly from the article that was posted here on the CBS site. If that article exaggerated or I misunderstood what they meant, so be it. I took it at face value.

However, it wouldn't be the first time an alleged victim claimed unnamed, anonymous perpetrators for crimes that nobody witnessed and then turned out to be the culprit. It happens taht way on CSI and in real life all the time.

It also wouldn't be the first time an unnamed, anonymous perpetrator for a crime that nobody (actually somebody apparently) witnessed in fact turned out to exist. Victims sometimes lie. Victims tell the truth too though.

By the way, it's illogical for you to say "THIS LAKE HAS A HISTORY OF ROBBERIES!" on the one hand, and then lambaste me for assuming it's a robbery on the other hand - I'm simply using your own assumption in order to build a theory of the incident.

I said: We have prior incidents of hostility by lake pirates on this lake

And even if I had said prior incidents of robbery, if we have prior incidents of members of a drug cartel robbing people, it's silly to say that it is hard to image them leaping from robbing to killing.

SamFisher

10-08-2010, 12:10 PM

if we have prior incidents of members of a drug cartel robbing people, it's silly to say that it is hard to image them leaping from robbing to killing.
I'm not saying they don't have the necessary resolve to pull the trigger, I'm questioning why a fearsome, professional multi-million dollar paramilitary organization would resort to sloppily knocking over tourists for what amounts to chump change.

weslinder

10-08-2010, 12:11 PM

Geeezzzz.... Lets just say that there have been reports of criminal activity targeting watercraft before on the lake which may lend credence to Hartley's claim that her husband was murdered.
Arrrggh, you be correct, matey! (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=186839)

justtxyank

10-08-2010, 12:12 PM

I'm not saying they don't have the necessary resolve to pull the trigger, I'm questioning why a fearsome, professional multi-million dollar paramilitary organization would resort to sloppily knocking over tourists for what amounts to chump change.

Fair argument, but that leads me back to "we have no idea what potential motives they may have had."

Like I said, perhaps they thought this couple witnessed something.

jo mama

10-08-2010, 08:54 PM

Why do you keep putitng "Law school" in quotes? Is it supposed to be funny like when you repeated pirates-yargh (tee hee!) again? :confused:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CMNry4PE93Y?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CMNry4PE93Y?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Also - if you don't want to argue about the minutmen and that ilk, then I suggest you not participate in a discussion about them -

i was not participating in a discussion about minutemen. i commented on how we might not want to jump the gun and essentially accuse this woman of murdering her husband and then you began arguing w/ me about minutemen and jetskis. sorry if ive been pwning you this entire thread, but you are the one who started it.

I'm the one who brought it up.

thats right law boy. you are the one who brought it up - the question is why? how are minutemen relevant to the topic at hand?

jo mama

10-08-2010, 09:01 PM

No, my argument is pretty clear - "somebody robbed a fisherman before!" is not the same as "somebody randomly shot one or two jet-ski people then hid the body"

who here is arguing otherwise?

and actually, your argument the entire thread has been that since there have been no previous jetski robberies the idea that it would happen now is illogical and improbable. dont try to backtrack on us - its easy to go back and quote you.

I'm not ignoring them I read them - that's why the story of a random jet-ski hijacking doesn't make any logical sense and the fact that, as you admit such an event has never previously occurred it tends to make it seem more, rather than less, improbable.

Pretty simple, I guess Jo mama has a wedgie from another internet battle.

you are the one who started arguing w/ me so perhaps you should check your panties for the wedgie there law-boy.

then you build in another logical leap that they decide to rob a jet-ski (for what, $100 resale value?) and hide the body but leave a living witness on another jet ski....

this all goes back to my initial point which got you so riled up in the first place and that is that you dont know what happened and neither do i. until this woman is proven to be a liar im willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

its possible it was an attempted robbery gone wrong. but the mexican side of the lake is a known haven for smugglers so perhaps they stumbled upon something they should not have seen while they were exploring the mexican side. maybe they found a stash and the dude stole a brick? maybe they were involved in a drug deal gone wrong? something is definitely odd about the story, but this lake has a very recent history of pirate (yarggh) activity so stuff like this really isnt too much of a shock. not too smart of them to be over there in the first place.

as far as the body, they could have picked up the body after chasing away the girl - that would be the smart thing to do - you dont want to leave any evidence behind (body or bullets) - makes it harder to link any persons or group to the crime or even figure out what really happened when there is no evidence - the body is burned and the jet ski sent to mr wolfs salvage yard.

jo mama

10-08-2010, 09:03 PM

Maybe she's telling the truth, who knows as of right now.

this is the only intelligent comment you have made in this entire thread. bravo law-boy!

YARGGHHHH!!!!

jo mama

10-09-2010, 10:43 AM

Explain to me what you think is happening here because it doesn't make sense to me. Do you think she murdered her husband? Do you think this is all staged to get publicity to Falcon Lake?

look retard! border town crime statistics are down in 08 and 09. illegal immigration is down. and the minutemen are a bunch of redneck retards.

therefore the woman is making up this story! anyone who thinks other wise is a retard!

case closed!

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d330c79c1d15c999b61bd44b4ad9fae74g.jpg

People who are anti-illegal immigration (as in the hardline right wingers) want to use this story as another example of why Mexican immigration is a terrible problem for America.

i dont see anyone in this thread doing this. the only one i see on here trying to politicize this incident is sam. just look at his very first post in the thread (#2).

SamFisher

10-09-2010, 10:54 AM

last 3 posts

Man, these three consecutive responses to nobody late on Friday night mean you must have had a very Fatty Fat Bastard-esque evening - AMIRITE, jo mama?

was it fun?

jo mama - I will pose to you the same question I posed previously to another....why does it bother you so much that I won't immediately accept this somewhat incomplete story of being attacked by faceless, nameless "lake pirates" as gospel? :confused:

I harbor serious doubts, and CSI has taught me that this is a good thing.

jo mama

10-09-2010, 11:32 AM

Man, these three consecutive responses to nobody late on Friday night mean you must have had a very Fatty Fat Bastard-esque evening - AMIRITE, jo mama?

since when did 9:00 PM constitute "late on friday night"? i had just gotten home from a long day of work, made some dinner, played w/ my dog and checked the internets before going out - thanks for your concern about my social life though!

9:00 = "late on a friday night" - really sam? :grin:

was it fun?

it was a good friday - thanks for asking!

jo mama - I will pose to you the same question I posed previously to another....why does it bother you so much that I won't immediately accept this somewhat incomplete story of being attacked by faceless, nameless "lake pirates" as gospel? :confused:

it doesnt bother me at all - this is definitely one of the more entertaining back and forths we have had. ive been totally dominating you and its obviously got you flustered. your posts have gotten more bitter, snippy, irrational and contradictory as we have gone on.

and for the record, you are the one who started arguing w/ me so the question is why did my comment that we might not want to rush to judgment bother you so much?

SamFisher

10-09-2010, 12:06 PM

since when did 9:00 PM constitute "late on friday night"? i had just gotten home from a long day of work, made some dinner, played w/ my dog and checked the internets before going out - thanks for your concern about my social life though!

9:00 = "late on a friday night" - really sam? :grin:

it was a good friday - thanks for asking!

it doesnt bother me at all - this is definitely one of the more entertaining back and forths we have had. ive been totally dominating you and its obviously got you flustered. your posts have gotten more bitter, snippy, irrational and contradictory as we have gone on.

and for the record, you are the one who started arguing w/ me so the question is why did my comment that we might not want to rush to judgment bother you so much?

Since it is important that we are clarifying the record, I am the one who said we shouldn't rush to judgment, blaming imaginary lake pirates. (yarrgh - teehee!)

What did you have for dinner? And where did you go afterwards?

Dave_78

10-09-2010, 12:15 PM

Pole

10-09-2010, 12:28 PM

I'm with Sam on this one. The few facts we know are not enough to draw a conclusion and the peculiarity of the whole situation makes me wonder about this woman's honesty.

The facts don't add up here.

I don't really have a problem with that. There really aren't enough facts to start adding anyway. My problem from the beginning (way before this became an argument for the sake of arguing) was that the tone of this discussion at the beginning was that this woman immediately assumed to be guilty. And really, that isn't a huge problem for me either. This is the Internet, and people spout off ugly things all the time. Hell, I'm guilty myself...........though I've tried to be better. It just seemed to me though that some people were finding her guilty soley because it helped them push their agenda.........which was really all that mattered to them. And again, it's the interwebs..............if that bothers me, I should grow a thicker skin. Or stay out of here..............which is my typical MO.

jo mama

10-10-2010, 11:57 AM

Since it is important that we are clarifying the record, I am the one who said we shouldn't rush to judgment, blaming imaginary lake pirates. (yarrgh - teehee!)

no, you said that since there have been no previous robberies of jetskis that this woman must be lying. after being called out by several posters you have kind of backtracked the last couple pages and started saying how we shouldnt rush to judgment, but that was clearly not your original position. your posts are there for all to read.

and why would you say "imaginary" lake pirates when there are already a few documented cases of just that on falcon lake? are you now trying to claim that the other robberies by lake pirates back in may did not happen?

and your very first post in this thread (post #2) made no mention of how we should not rush to judgment, rather you went off on minutemen for some reason and ranted about how right wingers will make an issue out of it - the reality is that you are the only one in this thread who has tried to politicize this incident.

my first post in the thread talked about how just b/c there is no body or jetski does not automatically make her a liar. and then you started arguing w/ me about jetskis, minutemen, illegal immigration and crime statistics.

What did you have for dinner? And where did you go afterwards?

you are gay.
yargghhh.

SamFisher

10-10-2010, 06:27 PM

no, you said that since there have been no previous robberies of jetskis that this woman must be lying. after being called out by several posters you have kind of backtracked the last couple pages and started saying how we shouldnt rush to judgment, but that was clearly not your original position. your posts are there for all to read.

and why would you say "imaginary" lake pirates when there are already a few documented cases of just that on falcon lake? are you now trying to claim that the other robberies by lake pirates back in may did not happen?

and your very first post in this thread (post #2) made no mention of how we should not rush to judgment, rather you went off on minutemen for some reason and ranted about how right wingers will make an issue out of it - the reality is that you are the only one in this thread who has tried to politicize this incident.

my first post in the thread talked about how just b/c there is no body or jetski does not automatically make her a liar. and then you started arguing w/ me about jetskis, minutemen, illegal immigration and crime statistics.

you are gay.
yargghhh.

I didn't read this post. But I believe your story about friday night and dinner is very questionable.

AroundTheWorld

10-10-2010, 07:11 PM

I didn't read this post.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0808/ignorance-clon-ignorance-kids-demotivational-poster-1220021162.jpg

rcoleman15

10-11-2010, 01:18 AM

an update of sorts:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7240824.html

Brothers sought in reported border lake shooting
By JORGE VARGAS
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Oct. 10, 2010, 8:33PM

NUEVO LAREDO, Mexico — Mexican authorities are searching for a pair of brothers they suspect in the reported border lake shooting of a missing American, a police official in the Mexican border state of Tamaulipas said Sunday.

David Hartley has not been seen since the reported Sept. 30 attack on Falcon Lake on the Rio Grande.

Investigators believe brothers Juan Pedro and Jose Manuel Zaldivar Farias may have killed Hartley as he snapped photos of a sunken church from a personal watercraft, said Tamaulipas State Police unit chief Juan Carlos Ballesteros.

The pair already are wanted for allegedly belonging to a gang of pirates operating on Falcon Lake, which straddles the U.S.-Mexico border, and allegedly terrorizing a Mexican town at the south end of the lake.

Ballesteros gave no other details of the investigation.

The announcement came after the Mexican government announced that it had opened a federal investigation into the reported shooting on the lake and strongly denied delaying action on finding the man or his attackers.

Falcon Lake is a dammed section of the Rio Grande, 25 miles long and 3 miles across. Pirates have robbed boaters and fisherman on the Mexican side, prompting warnings by Texas state officials, but Hartley's death would mark the first violent fatality on the lake.

The foreign ministry's statement said the federal attorney general's office has opened an investigation based on wife Tiffany Hartley's testimony to Mexican Consulate officials in McAllen, Texas, where she lives.

Meanwhile, Mexican authorities continued to search Falcon Lake and its Mexican shore for David Hartley, with support from the Mexican army and navy and U.S. agencies. Tiffany Hartley says her husband was shot in the head while they used personal watercrafts on the lake.

Tiffany Hartley told Zapata County, Texas, Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez that she tried to retrieve her husband but left him behind when she was forced to flee from a hail of bullets.

Tamaulipas' state civil protection said it has 102 people scouring the surface of the reservoir with the help of three boats, five all-terrain vehicles and 53 trucks.

Dubious

10-11-2010, 08:00 AM

What a Mexican pirate might look like:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3215/2870248873_8648e1973e.jpg

pgabriel

10-11-2010, 08:29 AM

On Saturday evening on the local news, they showed a video of the couple being pulled over for an expired registration on their trailer. I don't know what it was intended to prove but it was hilarious because the cop left them to chase a down a truck that had pounds of marijuana right in the back in the bed of the truck. You could see the truck pass by in the video.

jo mama

10-11-2010, 09:50 AM

I didn't read this post. But I believe your story about friday night and dinner is very questionable.

ill take this to mean you are tired of me making you look like a fool and submit to my superior intellect - i accept your surrender law-boi.

you act like a condescending, argumentative douche all the time and cant take it when people throw your crap back at you. you are like the middle school bully who goes around picking on kids, but when some little 6th grader pops him in the nose goes crying home to mommy.

and i am still baffled by your assertion that 9:00 = "late on Friday night" - my grandma is in her late 80's, but not even she would make that claim.

jo mama

10-11-2010, 09:54 AM

an update of sorts:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7240824.html

i saw that yesterday too - it is possible that the corrupt cops in mexico just went to the zetas and told them to give up two lower-level dudes to appease the americans.

then i was getting my daily dose of savannah guthrie (mmm...) on the lib-pig news network this morning and there was a story about how today the cops in mexico are coming out and refuting the story, saying there are no suspects - dont know where this is going now, but i would be shocked if they find any trace of the dude - at this point the body is probably burned and the jetski turned into scrap.

SamFisher

10-11-2010, 09:57 AM

ill take this to mean you are tired of me making you look like a fool and submit to my superior intellect - i accept your surrender law-boi.

you act like a condescending, argumentative douche all the time and cant take it when people throw your crap back at you. you are like the middle school bully who goes around picking on kids, but when some little 6th grader pops him in the nose goes crying home to mommy.

and i am still baffled by your assertion that 9:00 = "late on Friday night" - my grandma is in her late 80's, but not even she would make that claim.

Consider this post reported.

jo mama

10-11-2010, 10:00 AM

Consider this post reported.

thanks for proving my point.

should i report you for calling me a dumbass and a retard?

SamFisher

10-11-2010, 10:01 AM

thanks for proving my point.

should i report you for calling me a dumbass and a retard?
I'll withdraw my reporting if you apologize, publicly. If not, just continue considering yourself reported.

MoonDogg

10-11-2010, 10:04 AM

http://cineartista.com/wp-content/uploads/posters/sanson-contra-los-piratas.jpg

jo mama

10-11-2010, 10:09 AM

I'll withdraw my reporting if you apologize, publicly. If not, just continue considering yourself reported.

report away law boi!

you are really showing everyone who you are - you go around acting the way you do, starting arguments w/ people, often about things they arent even talking about, but get all upset when people come back at you, to the point where you threaten to "report" people who are mean to you - poor little sammy. :(

you can dish it out, but you clearly cant take it.

and if anyone should apologize, it should be you for wasting clutchs valuable bandwidth w/ your pointless arguing for the sake of arguing.

do you really think 9:00 = "late on Friday night"?

AroundTheWorld

10-11-2010, 10:09 AM

Consider this post reported.

What's there to report? Every single word in his post is true.

AroundTheWorld

10-11-2010, 10:16 AM

I'll withdraw my reporting if you apologize, publicly. If not, just continue considering yourself reported.

This post is full of hilarity.

Please explain how you "withdraw your reporting".

Thanks in advance.

DonkeyMagic

10-11-2010, 10:23 AM

jet-ski (for what, $100 resale value?)

http://img.listal.com/image/1191322/500full.jpg

DonkeyMagic

10-11-2010, 10:23 AM

you act like a condescending, argumentative douche all the time and cant take it when people throw your crap back at you. you are like the middle school bully who goes around picking on kids, but when some little 6th grader pops him in the nose goes crying home to mommy.

well he is the size of a 6th grader...a small one

SamFisher

10-11-2010, 10:32 AM

report away law boi!

you are really showing everyone who you are - you go around acting the way you do, starting arguments w/ people, often about things they arent even talking about, but get all upset when people come back at you, to the point where you threaten to "report" people who are mean to you - poor little sammy. :(

you can dish it out, but you clearly cant take it.

and if anyone should apologize, it should be you for wasting clutchs valuable bandwidth w/ your pointless arguing for the sake of arguing.

do you really think 9:00 = "late on Friday night"?
You are clearly cruising for a second bit of reportage. Want to try for three?

wakkoman

10-11-2010, 10:34 AM

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/4715171/view/1/producttypecolor/70/type/png/width/280/height/280/napoleon-complex-small-dog-tee_design.png

AroundTheWorld

10-11-2010, 10:38 AM

You are clearly cruising for a second bit of reportage. Want to try for three?

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/dsc/lowres/dscn9l.jpg

jo mama

10-12-2010, 09:04 AM

You are clearly cruising for a second bit of reportage. Want to try for three?

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/c13b56c4111f8360b048419a39d387e74g.jpg

jo mama

10-12-2010, 09:09 AM

well he is the size of a 6th grader...a small one

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/4715171/view/1/producttypecolor/70/type/png/width/280/height/280/napoleon-complex-small-dog-tee_design.png

ive never met sam (although based on his curiosity regarding what i like to eat and do on the weekends, im afraid he wants to ask me out) - is he a little guy? that would actually explain alot wrt the way he acts around here!

KingCheetah

10-12-2010, 09:12 AM

This post is full of hilarity.

Please explain how you "withdraw your reporting".

Go outside - look around until you find an airplane flying over your head.

SamFisher

10-12-2010, 09:17 AM

ive never met sam (although based on his curiosity regarding what i like to eat and do on the weekends, im afraid he wants to ask me out) - is he a little guy? that would actually explain alot wrt the way he acts around here!
Tread carefully, do you want to be reported for a third time? It will not be a charm, I can assure you.

jo mama

10-12-2010, 09:26 AM

not as fun as pwning sam, but back on topic -

it was odd that the mexican cops would go so far as to not only say they have suspects, but name names and then the very next day come out and say they have no suspects. seems like putting the suspects names out there would be a death sentence - the zetas would just knock them off to make the whole issue go away quicker and avoid all the press coverage.

and the fact that there is now video of the couple being pulled over proves that at the least they went to the lake together - seems like a few on here doubted the dude ever went down there. whatever actually happened on water, we know for a fact that he was there.

jo mama

10-12-2010, 09:28 AM

Tread carefully, do you want to be reported for a third time? It will not be a charm, I can assure you.

report away little man.

SamFisher

10-12-2010, 09:29 AM

and the fact that there is now video of the couple being pulled over proves that at the least they went to the lake together - seems like a few on here doubted the dude ever went down there. whatever actually happened on water, we know for a fact that he was there.
Of course he was there, do you think he ran off to Mexico with a stolen ATM card a la Kenny Powers?

The question is of course how he met with his tragic end.

report away little man.
Don't think I haven't been. My reporting finger is getting weary.

Depressio

10-12-2010, 09:32 AM

Don't think I haven't been. My reporting finger is getting weary.

Reporting is lame.

KingCheetah

10-12-2010, 09:42 AM

Reporting is lame.

Not this case -- it's quite necessary I believe. I'm very close to reporting a few of these posts myself -- because much like a Kenyan marathoner they cross the line.

DaDakota

10-12-2010, 09:55 AM

So have they found the body yet?

DD

AroundTheWorld

10-12-2010, 09:56 AM

Go outside - look around until you find an airplane flying over your head.

You are giving him more credit than he deserves. He is now trying to turn it into a joke because he is embarrassed.

DaDakota

10-12-2010, 09:58 AM

You are giving him more credit than he deserves. He is now trying to turn it into a joke because he is embarrassed.

Meanwhile I am certain Jo-mama's epenis is becomming engorged.

DD

SamFisher

10-12-2010, 10:07 AM

rocketsjudoka

10-12-2010, 10:15 AM

CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME!

DonkeyMagic

10-12-2010, 10:15 AM

SAMFISHER HAS BACKED TRACED IT!

AroundTheWorld

10-12-2010, 10:33 AM

rocketsjudoka

10-12-2010, 03:25 PM

Latest developments. Also it looks like Perry is trying to milk this situation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39637423/ns/world_news-americas

Severed head turns up in case of missing jet skier
Victim is Mexican investigator, Texas county sheriff says

SAN ANTONIO, Texas — The severed head of a Mexican investigator looking into the disappearance of an American has been delivered to authorities in Mexico, the sheriff on the Texas side of the border told NBC News on Tuesday.

Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez is spearheading the investigation on the U.S. side.
David Hartley has not been seen since Sept. 30, when his wife says pirates on Falcon Lake opened fire on them from speedboats while they were returning from Mexico to the United States on Jet Skis.

She said her husband was shot in the head and that she managed to flee, under fire, to the Texas side of the lake formed from a dammed section of the Rio Grande.

On Monday, Texas Gov. Rick Perry said he's disheartened that the wife of a missing American who was reported shot by pirates on a Texas-Mexico border lake hasn't heard from U.S. federal officials.

Perry said he spoke with Tiffany Hartley on Monday morning about the search for her husband.

"She's very frustrated and appropriately so. She's not heard one word from the United States federal government. She's not had a call from Secretary of State (Hillary) Clinton, she's not heard from the administration. And I find that really disheartening," Perry told reporters after speaking to an economic development summit.
A White House spokesman did not immediately respond to Perry's criticism when contacted by The Associated Press.

Perry said he hasn't gotten a call from Mexican President Felipe Calderon, as he requested last week, but he said their two offices are communicating. The Mexican government, in response to Perry's request, stepped up its search for Hartley's body and has named two men they are seeking in connection with the case.

Perry said Monday he could not provide any updates on the search for David Hartley or the investigation, including word over the weekend that Mexican authorities were searching for two Mexican brothers as potential suspects.
"Both of our federal governments need to do more to

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get to the bottom of this issue," he said.

Tamaulipas State Police unit chief Juan Carlos Ballesteros said Mexican investigators believe brothers Juan Pedro and Jose Manuel Zaldivar Farias may have killed Hartley as he took photos of a sunken church at the lake. The brothers already were sought for allegedly being in a gang of pirates that operates on Falcon Lake and for terrorizing a Mexican town at the south end of the lake.

Perry said once again that the Hartley incident points to the need for heightened border security by the U.S. federal government.

"The American people have had it up to here with their lack of understanding and their lack of action securing that border, where citizens of both sides can know that they are living in a country where they're going to be safe," he said.

AroundTheWorld

10-12-2010, 03:28 PM

Why would Hillary Clinton call her? :confused: I would think she has other things to do.

thadeus

10-12-2010, 04:22 PM

I hope someone stabs Rick Perry in the hair.

Dubious

10-12-2010, 04:32 PM

The raging possibility that this may be bogus means no politician in their right mind would touch it. You assign it to the proper jurisdiction to ascertain the truth.

Then there is Rick. But I assume the family of any American killed outside the United States should receive a letter from the State department, condolences and awareness.

SamFisher

10-12-2010, 04:33 PM

I hope someone stabs Rick Perry in the hair.
Another post reported.

KingCheetah

10-12-2010, 04:37 PM

Why would Hillary Clinton call her? :confused: I would think she has other things to do.

What could possible be more important than this border war event?

AroundTheWorld

10-12-2010, 04:42 PM

What could possible be more important than this border war event?

I don't know, ask SamFisher, it seems to have gotten him quite excited.

KingCheetah

10-12-2010, 04:51 PM

I don't know, ask SamFisher, it seems to have gotten him quite excited.

Ha, ha, ha... only a thread on Hasslehoff could make you more excited than you are in this thread.

AroundTheWorld

10-12-2010, 04:54 PM

Ha, ha, ha... only a thread on Hasslehoff could make you more excited than you are in this thread.

Reported ;).

DFWRocket

10-12-2010, 08:30 PM

Latest developments. Also it looks like Perry is trying to milk this situation.

Did Perry call a press conference to say this stuff? Then yes he is milking it.

or was he merely responding to a reporters question? Then he is Not milking it.

I don't like Perry and will likely vote for White, but I would try to not let our biases affect how we read an article.

Remember the Yao article where he simply responded to a reporter asking him what if he still has foot problems during the season - it was blown way out of proportion & all he was doing was answering a question.

Surfguy

10-12-2010, 09:24 PM

I propose we change the name of the lake from Falcon Lake to F_ckin Lake.

Castor27

10-12-2010, 09:31 PM

Amidst fear of being reported for posting, you know, actual information about this. I'll chance it and offer up the following:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101013/ap_on_re_us/us_border_lake_shooting

AUSTIN, Texas – A Texas sheriff says the dismembered head of a Mexican police commander investigating the reported shooting of an American on a border lake was found in a suitcase outside a Mexican Army base.

Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez told The Associated Press that "reliable sources within the law enforcement community of Mexico" told him that Rolando Flores' head was discovered Tuesday morning.

Flores was the commander of state investigators in Ciudad Miguel Aleman and was part of a group investigating the reported shooting of American David Hartley on Sept. 30.

Mexican divers have been searching the lake for Hartley's body.

Gonzalez says the chances of finding Hartley's body grow slimmer with each passing day.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — A Mexican police commander investigating the disappearance of an American tourist on a border lake plagued by pirates was killed, U.S. and Mexican officials said Tuesday.

Rolando Flores, the commander of state investigators in Ciudad Miguel Aleman who was part of a group investigating the reported shooting of David Hartley, was slain, said Ruben Rios, spokesman for the Tamaulipas state prosecutor's office.

Rios said authorities "don't know how or why he was killed. We don't have any details on how he died."

U.S. officials have said threats from drug gangs who control the area around Falcon Lake have hampered the search for Hartley.

jo mama

10-13-2010, 09:58 AM

Of course he was there, do you think he ran off to Mexico with a stolen ATM card a la Kenny Powers?

again, arguing for the sake of arguing.

as i said, many people have implied that perhaps the husband never even went to the lake so at least the video confirms that he did.

The question is of course how he met with his tragic end.

ok.

Don't think I haven't been. My reporting finger is getting weary.

im still here little man.

jo mama

10-13-2010, 10:00 AM

Not sure why my support for post-reporting is garnering opposition in certain quarters.

It has been effectively deployed by others (http://bbs.clutchfans.com/showpost.php?p=3705303&postcount=79) in the past.

report away little man! funny to see the name trader jorge in that link - you really remind me of him!

you are probably the most egregious name caller and overall the most insulting/condescending/arrogant poster on this board. but when someone says something you dont like you go crying to the mods. again, you can dish it out, but you clearly cant take it.

and what have i said to you that was more insulting than you calling me a dumbass and a retard?

jo mama

10-13-2010, 10:06 AM

you know its getting weird when we start talking about severed heads - does this make the womans story more plausible to yall who doubt her? if the pirates (yarghh) were not involved w/ the murder than why kill someone investigating it?

SamFisher

10-13-2010, 10:28 AM

again, arguing for the sake of arguing.

as i said, many people have implied that perhaps the husband never even went to the lake so at least the video confirms that he did.

Who?

im still here little man.
Indeed - well maybe my strategy won't pay off, as your latest 3 post combo seems to show that you are still unmodded. But I consider it worth it on balance, it's the principle of the thing.

As for the details of your particular offense - I can't believe I even have to get into this. Suffice it to say, there is a border of acceptable BBS conduct, and you lake pirated across it like a amphetamined-up Zeta on a hovercraft.

DaDakota

10-13-2010, 11:17 AM

rocketsjudoka

10-13-2010, 11:22 AM

Wait, so this is the post that got reported?

Looks pretty accurate to me, IIRC, Mr Meogi or Judoka challenged him to a fight once, right?

DD

Oh I'm the challenge to Sam Fisher is still there to step into the
http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/videos/drv700/v710/v71044cagh5.jpg

Sam;

YOU DUN GOOFED UP!

AroundTheWorld

10-13-2010, 11:25 AM

Oh I'm the challenge to Sam Fisher is still there to step into the
http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/videos/drv700/v710/v71044cagh5.jpg

Sam;

YOU DUN GOOFED UP!

That reminds me of a movie I watched yesterday called WAR with Jason Statham and Jet Li, turns out the white guy was the bad guy in the end and the Asian guy kicks his ass.

rimrocker

10-13-2010, 11:31 AM

That reminds me of a movie I watched yesterday called WAR with Jason Statham and Jet Li, turns out the white guy was the bad guy in the end and the Asian guy kicks his ass.

Obviously a movie made by heathen Liberals taking aim at our culture. A good Conservative screenwriter and directer would have reversed the roles... where they should have been in the first place.

SamFisher

10-13-2010, 12:39 PM

Wait, so this is the post that got reported?

Looks pretty accurate to me, IIRC, Mr Meogi or Judoka challenged him to a fight once, right?

DD
Has it been reported, LOL - It would be more accurate to list all the posts I haven't reported.

And btw, consider yourself reported.

MoonDogg

10-13-2010, 02:12 PM

Obviously a movie made by heathen Liberals taking aim at our culture. A good Conservative screenwriter and directer would have reversed the roles... where they should have been in the first place.
http://www.billdetucci.com/images/bloodsport_soundtrack_cd.jpg

Buck Turgidson

10-13-2010, 02:16 PM

I propose we change the name of the lake from Falcon Lake to F_ckin Lake.
Yippee-kay-yay Mister Falcon

rcoleman15

10-14-2010, 12:39 AM

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mexicandrugwars/report_zeta_scouts_thought_hartleys_were_gulf_cartel_spies_1 04910724.html

Lake killing blamed on blunder
By Lynn Brezosky - Express-News
Web Posted: 10/13/2010 8:32 PM CDT

BROWNSVILLE — A global intelligence company Wednesday said the death of U.S. citizen David Michael Hartley on Falcon Lake was a case of mistaken identity in a turf war between rival drug cartels.

Hartley, who was shot during a Sept. 30 sightseeing trip to the Mexican side of the binational reservoir, was shot by Zeta cartel enforcers because he was mistaken for a spy of the rival Gulf Cartel, according to the report by STRATFOR, and Austin-based think tank specializing in intelligence and international issues.

The report goes on to say Hartley's body likely was destroyed as Los Zetas went into “damage control” mode and that the lower-level operatives responsible for the unauthorized strike against him now are on the Zetas' hit list.

“The cartel boss — Miguel Treviño — is highly upset over the fact that these individuals shot and killed Mr. Hartley and it's our understanding that the cartel boss is hunting for the killers of Mr. Hartley so he can take care of them himself,” said Fred Burton, STRATFOR's vice president of intelligence.

Burton, who doesn't cite his sources, goes on to say the beheading Tuesday of Rolando Armando Flores Villegas, the lead Mexican investigator in the case, was a stern signal to both the United States and Mexico that no body will be produced and to leave the situation alone.

Hartley's wife, Tiffany, has said the two were ambushed while taking pictures of a submerged Mexican town.

She said she raced to U.S. shores without her husband after a futile attempt to lift his body, the gunfire trailing her well across the U.S. line.

The case has drawn international attention, with Tiffany Hartley and her family appearing on various news shows defending her story of lake pirates and pleading for action amid a drug war that has Mexican officials paralyzed by fear.

Her mother, Cynthia Young, said the family had seen the STRATFOR report but had no comment yet on its findings.

“It hasn't been confirmed through the investigative officers here,” she said. “But we're still standing and believing for a miracle that we will get David back in some fashion and that's the way God wants it. But he's in charge.”

She said officials at the U.S. Consulate in Matamoros, Mexico, had assured them Flores' decapitation wouldn't stop the search.

Burton is the author of two books: “Mexico in Crisis: Lost Borders and the Struggle for Regional Status” and “GHOST: Confessions of a Counterterrorism Agent.”

A former special agent in counterterroism for the U.S. State Department, he was appointed in 2007 by Gov. Rick Perry to serve on the Border Security Council. He served briefly as the assistant director for intelligence and counterterrorism for the Texas Department of Public Safety.

His report concludes“halcones,” or Zeta scouts, noticed Mexican tags on the trailer towing the Hartley's personal watercraft, mistook them as spies for the rival Gulf Cartel and sent radio messages buzzing across the lake.

The couple had lived in Reynosa, Mexico, where Hartley worked for an Alberta-based oil company.

“Once Hartley was identified as an American, his body was destroyed the same day as the incident to prevent a backlash from the U.S. government against the group,” the report states.

As for the attackers, “a damage control campaign currently is under way — led by Los Zetas' No. 2, Miguel “Z-40” Treviño Morales — to identify and eliminate those who engaged the Hartleys.”

Treviño Morales is named in federal court documents as the No. 2 Zeta. He's wanted by Laredo police in five slayings they say he ordered in the U.S. during 2005 and 2006. He's also wanted in the U.S. on drug trafficking charges.

The U.S. State Department is offering $5 million and the Mexican government is offering 30 million pesos, about $2.4 million, for information leading to his arrest or conviction.

The death of the Mexican investigator in the case, meanwhile, produced an outcry Wednesday from several U.S. officials, most calling on the U.S. to get more active.

U.S. Rep. Henry Cuellar, D-Laredo, said Flores had a reputation for cooperation and camaraderie with law enforcement counterparts in Texas.

Cuellar's brother, Webb County Sheriff Martin Cuellar, brokered a meeting last week with the Hartley family and investigators, including Flores.

“Commandante Flores and many of his peers had continued to search for David Hartley in the face of grave threats and imminent danger,” Rep. Cuellar said in a statement. “This tragic incident demonstrates the continued efforts of the Mexican law enforcement community to help us in America solve the Hartley case.”

He said the case underscores the need for the Mérida Initiative, an infusion of resources he supported to help Latin American nations fight the drug war.

But Republican politicians including Perry and U.S. Sen. John Cornyn say the incident instead should be seen as a failure of the Obama administration to secure the nation's southern border.

U.S. Rep. Ted Poe, R-Humble, accused the State Department of moving slowly in the investigation that has emboldened the narcotics cartels that he likened to terrorist groups.

Poe, who sits on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said the United States would not be intimidated by the Zetas or other cartels.

“If anything, the United States ought to give more resources to this investigation,” he said.

B-Bob

10-14-2010, 07:30 AM

Yes, Rick Perry, that's the first thing that came to my mind as well. This killing by the Zetas is a clear "failure of the Obama administration." (TM, GOP, 2007)

The beheading of Flores is also an epic "failure of the Obama administration." (TM, GOP, 2007)

Rocketman95

10-14-2010, 07:30 AM

wait, the us state department is offering $5 million as a reward? i thought they didn't care?!?

DaDakota

10-14-2010, 07:53 AM

Just invade Mexico and take back those border towns.....

We have folks fighting an overseas war that is a waste of time over people who don't like us.

It seems we have more pressing matters at our own doorstep.

DD

jo mama

10-14-2010, 10:28 AM

Who?

i have posed several questions to you in this thread that you have not answered. kind of arrogant, but typical of you to ignore others questions, but demand they respond to your querries.

i will be happy to answer your question, but first i would like you to explain to me how 9:00 constitutes "late on Friday night".

As for the details of your particular offense - I can't believe I even have to get into this. Suffice it to say, there is a border of acceptable BBS conduct, and you lake pirated across it like a amphetamined-up Zeta on a hovercraft.

is it "acceptable BBS conduct" to call others dumbasses and retards?

sam, it is really sad to see what i have reduced you to. i have been totally pwning you this entire thread, but you keep coming back for more. if it was anyone else i would actually feel kind of sorry for them, but i must admit to really enjoying seeing you embarrass yourself like you have - this thread might be the most fun i have ever had on clutchfans!

jo mama

10-14-2010, 10:36 AM

Wait, so this is the post that got reported?

Looks pretty accurate to me, IIRC, Mr Meogi or Judoka challenged him to a fight once, right?

DD

and reading that particular post, notice that i did not directly call sam a douche. i just said he acts like one. however, in post #39, sam directly called me a dumbass.

And no dumbass, they don't teach that on the first day. Have you seen "The Paper Chase"? It's burnt and hairy hand on the first day. Duh.

conclusion: sam can dish it out, but he cant take it.

i rest my case.

jo mama

10-14-2010, 10:40 AM

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mexicandrugwars/report_zeta_scouts_thought_hartleys_were_gulf_cartel_spies_1 04910724.html

Hartley, who was shot during a Sept. 30 sightseeing trip to the Mexican side of the binational reservoir, was shot by Zeta cartel enforcers because he was mistaken for a spy of the rival Gulf Cartel, according to the report by STRATFOR, and Austin-based think tank specializing in intelligence and international issues.

The report goes on to say Hartley's body likely was destroyed as Los Zetas went into “damage control” mode and that the lower-level operatives responsible for the unauthorized strike against him now are on the Zetas' hit list.

“The cartel boss — Miguel Treviño — is highly upset over the fact that these individuals shot and killed Mr. Hartley and it's our understanding that the cartel boss is hunting for the killers of Mr. Hartley so he can take care of them himself,” said Fred Burton, STRATFOR's vice president of intelligence.

we still dont know exactly what happened, but two weeks later and there is zero evidence to indicate the woman was involved in anyway.

on the contrary, we now have pieces of evidence coming out that points in the direction of 'imaginary' lake pirates, as sam likes to call them.

and judging by this article, much of what i have said in this thread has been confirmed by this STRATFOR group.
guy was in wrong place at wrong time
body and jetski are destroyed
zeta bosses will kill the guys responsible for it, even if its one of their own

its possible it was an attempted robbery gone wrong. but the mexican side of the lake is a known haven for smugglers so perhaps they stumbled upon something they should not have seen while they were exploring the mexican side.

as far as the body, they could have picked up the body after chasing away the girl - that would be the smart thing to do - you dont want to leave any evidence behind (body or bullets) - makes it harder to link any persons or group to the crime or even figure out what really happened when there is no evidence - the body is burned and the jet ski sent to mr wolfs salvage yard.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=jo mama]at this point the body is probably burned and the jetski turned into scrap.

seems like putting the suspects names out there would be a death sentence - the zetas would just knock them off to make the whole issue go away quicker and avoid all the press coverage.

SamFisher

10-14-2010, 11:13 AM

and judging by this article, much of what i have said in this thread has been confirmed by this STRATFOR group.
guy was in wrong place at wrong time
body and jetski are destroyed
zeta bosses will kill the guys responsible for it, even if its one of their own
B]/QUOTE]
This report contradicts your earlier assertion that the alleged jetski assault was a simple robbery, like other previous robberies on the lake you cited and rather confirms my initial suspicions that this was NOT a simple robbery (why rob two people in bathing suits?) and instead a case of mistaken identity.

DOES. IT. NOT.
? ? ?

i have posed several questions to you in this thread that you have not answered. kind of arrogant, but typical of you to ignore others questions, but demand they respond to your querries.

i will be happy to answer your question, but first i would like you to explain to me how 9:00 constitutes "late on Friday night".

It was 10 PM eastern, as it registers on my viewing device - it's certainly late enough for you to have been out partying and galavanting at the local publick house or a dancing hall, or perhaps for you to have been taking liberties at the bawdy house.

But no that is not the scene that unfolded at the household of jo mama - rather you were curled up in the corner with a handle of Jim Beam and the ghost of Fatty Fat Bastard whispering in your ear, sporting an ill-fitting pair of neoprene coveralls and a glassy, cockeyed glare, firing off glorious 3 post salvos at imaginary pursuers and fantasizing about 21-gun Lake Pirateships and hidden booty.

These 3-post salvoes (in contravention of posting guidelines as my rather detailed post reports have shown exhaustively.)

is it "acceptable BBS conduct" to call others dumbasses and retards?

sam, it is really sad to see what i have reduced you to. i have been totally pwning you this entire thread, but you keep coming back for more. if it was anyone else i would actually feel kind of sorry for them, but i must admit to really enjoying seeing you embarrass yourself like you have - this thread might be the most fun i have ever had on clutchfans!
You know, there is a time for fun, and there is a time for games, and there is a time when posts must be reported.

I think we all know which time that is.

Nevertheless I'm going to modify my initial demand, if you e-mail me through the board with an apology - I'll withdraw my reports. Nobody will ever have to know, you have my word on that.

A good way for both of us to save face.

DonkeyMagic

10-14-2010, 12:51 PM

http://www.guzer.com/pictures/funny_pirates.jpg

AroundTheWorld

10-14-2010, 01:00 PM

It was 10 PM eastern, as it registers on my viewing device - it's certainly late enough for you to have been out partying and galavanting at the local publick house or a dancing hall, or perhaps for you to have been taking liberties at the bawdy house.

But no that is not the scene that unfolded at the household of jo mama - rather you were curled up in the corner with a handle of Jim Beam and the ghost of Fatty Fat Bastard whispering in your ear, sporting an ill-fitting pair of neoprene coveralls and a glassy, cockeyed glare, firing off glorious 3 post salvos at imaginary pursuers and fantasizing about 21-gun Lake Pirateships and hidden booty.

While I must admit this got a chuckle out of me, it always amuses me when someone with these "credentials"

SamFisher
Since: Apr 2003
Posts: 29,835

pulls the "you post on a basketball message board and therefore have no life" card and shows it to others.

If anything, we are all guilty of being nerds and dorks in that way.

KingCheetah

10-14-2010, 05:08 PM

I see that SamF has been successful in changing the subject -- quite typical from a hardcore liberal.

AroundTheWorld

10-14-2010, 06:28 PM

SamFisher likes to eat da poo poo.

DonkeyMagic

10-15-2010, 09:14 AM

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_p2jgVV2iZVs/SsHNhrKV5EI/AAAAAAAATVU/qTujtwTP2FI/s400/superdive.jpg

jo mama

10-15-2010, 10:37 AM

This report contradicts your earlier assertion that the alleged jetski assault was a simple robbery

again sam, your poor reading comprehension and desire to argue for the sake of arguing is making you look foolish. the closest i come to making an 'assertion' that it was a robbery was in post #81 where i said "its possible it was an attempted robbery gone wrong."

infact, here is the full quote...
its possible it was an attempted robbery gone wrong. but the mexican side of the lake is a known haven for smugglers so perhaps they stumbled upon something they should not have seen while they were exploring the mexican side. maybe they found a stash and the dude stole a brick? maybe they were involved in a drug deal gone wrong? something is definitely odd about the story, but this lake has a very recent history of pirate (yarggh) activity so stuff like this really isnt too much of a shock. not too smart of them to be over there in the first place.

so actually, i was spot on when i said they probably stumbled upon something they shouldnt have seen. you on the other hand are still referring to the lake pirates "imaginary".

you fail again lawboi.

my initial suspicions that this was NOT a simple robbery (why rob two people in bathing suits?) and instead a case of mistaken identity.

please :rolleyes: where have you claimed it was a case of 'mistaken identity'. all you have been doing the whole time is arguing about minutemen, bordertown crime statistics, illegal immigration and how since there have been no previous robberies of jetskis that means this woman is lying. and you are still claiming that the lake pirates are "imaginary" - why are you lying about your position like this? anyone can go read your posts, which totally contradict what you are claiming now.

your "initial suspicions" can be judged by your "initial" post in the thread, which happens to be the 2nd one, posted a mere 5 minutes after the thread was created...
No sh-t.

Regardless of its truth, it's a good excuse though for redneck militia minutemen wingnuts to go driving around in bassboats with shotguns, blathering incoherently about John Paul Jones. So it's got that working for it.

it is clear from this post that you have had an agenda here from the very beginning. you can try to backtrack, but your posts are here for all to read.

It was 10 PM eastern, as it registers on my viewing device - it's certainly late enough for you to have been out partying and galavanting at the local publick house or a dancing hall, or perhaps for you to have been taking liberties at the bawdy house.

it was 9:00 houston rockets time. but either way, do you consider 10 PM to be late on a friday night? that is just as pathetic as claiming 9 is late.

But no that is not the scene that unfolded at the household of jo mama - rather you were curled up in the corner with a handle of Jim Beam and the ghost of Fatty Fat Bastard whispering in your ear, sporting an ill-fitting pair of neoprene coveralls and a glassy, cockeyed glare, firing off glorious 3 post salvos at imaginary pursuers and fantasizing about 21-gun Lake Pirateships and hidden booty.

These 3-post salvoes (in contravention of posting guidelines as my rather detailed post reports have shown exhaustively.)

i generally only come on to clutchfans once a day so when i make posts in a thread they all come at once. i guess i should have gone to "law school" so that i could get the kind of job that allows me to sit around all day (in a tiny little chair, i assume) checking into clutchfans every 5 minutes.

and its funny - i have been here a year longer than you, but you have almost 400% more posts than me. seems like if you were half the badass you act like you are, you would have better/more important things to do than spend all day here.

Nevertheless I'm going to modify my initial demand, if you e-mail me through the board with an apology - I'll withdraw my reports. Nobody will ever have to know, you have my word on that.

so you want to know what i like to eat, where i like to go at night and now you want my email? sam, im flattered, but i do not want to date you. im not gay and if i was you would definitely not be my type.

justtxyank

10-15-2010, 10:46 AM

Sam,

Come on man. You are a smart guy, but this is one where you just need to admit you were wrong and out of line. You weren't arguing it was mistaken identity, you were arguing the whole thing was fabricated.

SamFisher

10-15-2010, 10:48 AM

so you want to know what i like to eat, where i like to go at night and now you want my email? sam, im flattered, but i do not want to date you. im not gay and if i was you would definitely not be my type.
These anti-gay slurs are pretty close to the line of the type of thing that should be reported as it's relevant to some family issues, which i may have alluded to before here. It's very uncool of you to twist the knife. I'm going to probably report this one also.

So bam, good start to your day, eh bro? Push your luck some more why don't you...

Sam,

Come on man. You are a smart guy, but this is one where you just need to admit you were wrong and out of line. You weren't arguing it was mistaken identity, you were arguing the whole thing was fabricated.

My friend, the only thing I argued about was the value of truth, and the value of known knows and unknown knows, a la Donald Rumsfeld. Jo mama escalated it up the ladder to a reportable offense, and I took up the banner for the BBS. If I get an apology maybe my admission will be forthcoming, though I'm not sure exactly what I need to admit to, other than being a good CSI and a defender of civility.

jo mama

10-15-2010, 10:51 AM

These anti-gay slurs are pretty close to the line of the type of thing that should be reported as it's relevant to some family issues, which i may have alluded to before here. It's very uncool of you to twist the knife. I'm going to probably report this one also.

So bam, good start to your day, eh bro? Push your luck some more why don't you...

you are the one who is trying to internet stalk me. i have repeatedly rejected your advances so i will formally ask one more time for you to stop harassing me - i dont want to date you - im not interested. if you keep up this harassment i shall be forced to go over the mods and report you to the police.

and if you want to talk about slurs and things we say being relevant to family issues, how about your constant use of the word 'retard'. there are many here who have children or other family members who are mentally disabled and yet, you are always using the word 'retard'. especially w/ basso - i disagree w/ pretty much everything he stands for and says, but he does claim to have a special needs child and for some reason you will not hesitate to use the word 'retard' around him. ive seen that many times.

i get why many like you are throwing that word around now - its about palin and the douchey way that she uses her kid as a political tool - but you come off just douchey when you go around using the word 'retard' as much as you do. for the record i have never reported you for it, but i do always take note when you use the word.

AroundTheWorld

10-15-2010, 11:02 AM

These anti-gay slurs are pretty close to the line of the type of thing that should be reported as it's relevant to some family issues, which i may have alluded to before here.

http://www.beercandleforums.com/imagehosting/1544c119b593c37d.jpg

pgabriel

10-15-2010, 11:07 AM

everytime I see this story updated on the news I think about this thread

Granville

10-15-2010, 11:14 AM

SamFisher

10-15-2010, 11:14 AM

you are the one who is trying to internet stalk me. i have repeatedly rejected your advances so i will formally ask one more time for you to stop harassing me - i dont want to date you - im not interested. if you keep up this harassment i shall be forced to go over the mods and report you to the police.

and if you want to talk about slurs and things we say being relevant to family issues, how about your constant use of the word 'retard'. there are many here who have children or other family members who are mentally disabled and yet, you are always using the word 'retard'. especially w/ basso - i disagree w/ pretty much everything he stands for and says, but he does claim to have a special needs child and for some reason you will not hesitate to use the word 'retard' around him. ive seen that many times.

i get why many like you are throwing that word around now - its about palin and the douchey way that she uses her kid as a political tool - but you come off just douchey when you go around using the word 'retard' as much as you do. for the record i have never reported you for it, but i do always take note when you use the word.
Geez, what great logic this is- sam f once did something mean to basso, so he can't report *my* over-the-line posts.

***Chuckle**** chuckle***

- tell it to the judge, jo mama, tell it to the judge. We'll see how far you get.

wakkoman

10-15-2010, 11:24 AM

tell it to the judge, jo mama, tell it to the judge. We'll see how far you get.

If your arguments in court remotely mirror those you try here, I don't think a judge would even acknowledge you.

Granville

10-15-2010, 11:35 AM

Geez, what great logic this is- sam f once did something mean to basso, so he can't report *my* over-the-line posts.

***Chuckle**** chuckle***

- tell it to the judge, jo mama, tell it to the judge. We'll see how far you get.

You really need to back away from the keyboard because you are unraveling big time.

I have honestly never seen a guy who constantly boasts his own level of intelligence come off looking this stupid because he just can’t admit he was wrong.

SamFisher

10-15-2010, 11:51 AM

DaDakota

10-15-2010, 11:55 AM

This thread is full of win.

DD

DonkeyMagic

10-15-2010, 11:59 AM

fatty style breakdown. awesome.

Granville

10-15-2010, 12:00 PM

Welcome to Reported Post-Town.

Population: You.

Welcome to Loserville

Population Sad Fisher.

SamFisher

10-15-2010, 12:02 PM

Welcome to Loserville

Population Sad Fisher.
The really sad thing is that some people (note I did not say ass-clowns, which would have been reportable) like Granville think i am not serious about this.

Believe you me...It doesn't get much more serious than this. I can't think of anything in fact that is more serious.

justtxyank

10-15-2010, 12:08 PM

Believe you me...It doesn't get much more serious than this. I can't think of anything in fact that is more serious.

More serious than hypogonadism?

DonkeyMagic

10-15-2010, 12:15 PM

More serious than hypogonadism?

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsC/52487.gif

Rocketman95

10-15-2010, 12:29 PM

keep it up sam, i'm enjoying it.

REPORTED!

AroundTheWorld

10-15-2010, 12:35 PM

keep it up sam, i'm enjoying it.

Groogrux>SamF

NSFW

http://img.youtube.com/vi/UlmIeALoYcA/0.jpg

Rashmon

10-15-2010, 01:07 PM

Some ****** just don't understand the repercussions of their hateful *****.

I am now ******ing my ***** to avoid ********* anyone and being ******ed.

Granville

10-15-2010, 01:21 PM

The really sad thing is that some people (note I did not say ass-clowns, which would have been reportable) like Granville think i am not serious about this.

Believe you me...It doesn't get much more serious than this. I can't think of anything in fact that is more serious.

You're coming off like a serious dumbass, act or not.

Joshfast

10-15-2010, 01:36 PM

Don't care about the topic at all but this stuff is hilarious.

Please get him to keep responding. This train wreck is comedy gold on so many levels.

B-Bob

10-15-2010, 02:14 PM

Granville

10-15-2010, 02:52 PM

I don't know what's more entertaining:
1. trying to figure out to what extent SamFisher is trolling.
2. watching a back-slapping cadre (such a fun term -- where have I heard it?) of people-wit-der-feewings-huwt-over-deh-yeuhs-by-meanie-SamFishuh gather to call the thread an "ass whooping" etc.

Watching you come in to slobberjockey Sam is the clear winner.

Sam took up a stupid position and wound up looking like an ass yet again....

B-Bob

10-15-2010, 03:35 PM

Watching you come in to slobberjockey Sam is the clear winner.

Sam took up a stupid position and wound up looking like an ass yet again....

Awwww. Now now. Does "slobberjockey" imply oral sex? How now, "Granville?" Whence comes this personal animosity, (and perhaps, homophobia)? I don't recall ever interacting with you on this site.

And please underline where I defended the absurd notion that this ridiculously media-hyped mistaken gang murder was faked? I didn't even find the topic interesting until I witnessed the "hey, over here! we've got SamFisher!" event.

It's all fine by me. He's been a jerk to a good many of you. So doing a super bowl victory celebration after an opponent's illegal motion penalty makes sense... I guess. (?) And then you keep dancing as the other team argues about the illegal motion call. You'll pardon a few people on the sidelines if we say WTF? Or you won't, actually, but carry on.

The epic thread needs more celebration! Hell, it won't just make the weekend. It could DEFINE it!

KingCheetah

10-15-2010, 03:37 PM

Watching you come in to slobberjockey

Post reported.

Rashmon

10-15-2010, 03:47 PM

I just wanted to **** in this **** thread because the ***** is that SamF is ********* everybody in here.

MadMax

10-15-2010, 03:52 PM

The best part of this thread is the use of the word, "slobberjockey." I can assure you that you will all be reading that word in future MadMax posts. Try to contain your excitement, boys.

mc mark

10-15-2010, 03:55 PM

just for you Max

A carved pumpkin photo gone viral

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs775.snc4/67503_443641502869_88420692869_4976007_793328_n.jpg

KingCheetah

10-15-2010, 04:17 PM

MadMax slobberjockey has nothing to do with Smarty Jones.

MadMax

10-15-2010, 04:18 PM

MadMax slobberjockey has nothing to do with Smarty Jones.

Oh. Well then forget it.

DrLudicrous

10-15-2010, 04:22 PM

just for you Max

A carved pumpkin photo gone viral

Why would you make a carving of a moon?

gifford1967

10-15-2010, 04:25 PM

All you slobberjockeys (I'm looking at you B-Bob, KC,MM) need to quit trying to distract from Sam's "epic" meltdown. Chiles is trying to concentrate.

MadMax

10-15-2010, 04:30 PM

Why would you make a carving of a moon?

that's not a a planetoid satellite

SamFisher

10-15-2010, 05:33 PM

Of the many pathetic things in this thread, the most subtly worst is jo mama's pretty blatant attempts to redirect it from its true focus of the lake pirates (or lack thereof) - the true focus, happens, btw to not be either:

1) what jo mama does on friday nights aside from posting or

2) his obvious disregard for posting guidelines, causing me to report his posts out of a sense of duty.

I see what you did there, jo.

What happened is that you trying to create a diversion since your initial rush to judgment ("it was a robbery gone wrong!") has now been proven false allegedly.

I'm sure you'll have 3-4 responses for me later tonight. I'm off to see superdiamond at the highline ballroom.

MadMax

10-15-2010, 05:35 PM

I'm off to see superdiamond at the highline ballroom.

i reported your mom.

AroundTheWorld

10-15-2010, 07:03 PM

All you slobberjockeys (I'm looking at you B-Bob, KC,MM) need to quit trying to distract from Sam's "epic" meltdown. Chiles is trying to concentrate.

Thank you. I would have reported you but your attempts to help me concentrate saved yo ass.

B-Bob

10-15-2010, 07:24 PM

Back on topic, reports are now surfacing that the investigator was decapitated using a diabolically ingenious timber saw mounted between two synchronized jetski craft.

ILoveTheRockets

10-16-2010, 01:10 AM

In the words of Donald Rumsfeld. "The Absence of Evidence Is Not Evidence of Absence".

jo mama

10-16-2010, 12:26 PM

Geez, what great logic this is- sam f once did something mean to basso, so he can't report *my* over-the-line posts.

you can report all you want - im just pointing out out what a hypocrite you are by claiming that things i am saying hit close to home regarding family issues while you knowingly say things all the time that hit close to home w/ other posters family members.

again, your poor reading comprehension is making you look foolish.

and ive seen you be mean to basso more than once.

tell it to the judge, jo mama, tell it to the judge. We'll see how far you get.

thats ok - im not a whiny little baby who runs to the mods everytime someone says something i dont like. i guess i have thicker skin than you.

jo mama

10-16-2010, 12:26 PM

You really need to back away from the keyboard because you are unraveling big time.

I have honestly never seen a guy who constantly boasts his own level of intelligence come off looking this stupid because he just can’t admit he was wrong.

This thread is full of win.

DD

fatty style breakdown. awesome.

keep it up sam, i'm enjoying it.

REPORTED!

Don't care about the topic at all but this stuff is hilarious.

Please get him to keep responding. This train wreck is comedy gold on so many levels.

yall are welcome! and its been a real pleasure - again, this is probably the most fun i have ever had on clutchfans!

look at sam - he has been reduced to a weak, unfunny version of tradertexx. he has been totally devastated on the topic so all he has left is his 'threat' of reporting and jokes about CSI. anyone w/ any hint of shame would have just gone away, but sam keeps coming back and jamming his foot further down his mouth.

jo mama

10-16-2010, 12:33 PM

Of the many pathetic things in this thread, the most subtly worst is jo mama's pretty blatant attempts to redirect it from its true focus of the lake pirates (or lack thereof) - the true focus, happens, btw to not be either:

your first post in the thread (post #2) was a pretty blatant attempt to redirect it from lake pirates. btw, are you still referring to them as "imaginary"?

1) what jo mama does on friday nights aside from posting or

still dont want to date you - give it up.

2) his obvious disregard for posting guidelines, causing me to report his posts out of a sense of duty.

report away little man.

What happened is that you trying to create a diversion since your initial rush to judgment ("it was a robbery gone wrong!") has now been proven false allegedly.

again, your reading comprehension sucks. where did i claim it was a robbery gone wrong? if anyone has been rushing to judgement in this thread it has been you. i dont understand why you have been outright lying about your position to the degree you have when your posts are here for all to read.

I'm sure you'll have 3-4 responses for me later tonight.

only in your dreams gayboi.

jo mama

10-16-2010, 12:35 PM

this thread has given me a good idea of who sam might be.

he is a laywer
he is short of stature
judging by the fact that he thinks 9PM is "late night" he must be very old.

i think i know who he is - tell me sam, is one of your clients the lollipop guild?

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/k_CAs3q7G48?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/k_CAs3q7G48?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

KingCheetah

10-16-2010, 12:37 PM

and ive seen you be mean to basso more than once.

As much as I hate to admit it ... jo mama is right about this -- Samf stop being mean to basso.

jo mama

10-16-2010, 12:41 PM

2. watching a back-slapping cadre (such a fun term -- where have I heard it?) of people-wit-der-feewings-huwt-over-deh-yeuhs-by-meanie-SamFishuh gather to call the thread an "ass whooping" etc.

it is funny to have so many pile on sam for once. there is a group that includes sam who likes to pile on others, especially when they dare criticize the obama administration. sam is generally at the forefront of being smarmy and condescending towards others so its nice to see him get it thrown back at him every once in a while. the difference is that in this instance he has totally brought it on himself.

and i dont see any of sams obama-buddies coming to his defense here. that should tell sam that he might want to let this one go.

jo mama

10-16-2010, 12:42 PM

As much as I hate to admit it ... jo mama is right about this -- Samf stop being mean to basso.

i dont like basso either, but its wrong to mock his kids.

KingCheetah

10-16-2010, 12:45 PM

it is funny to have so many pile on sam for once.

that should tell sam that he might want to let this one go.

Yeah, sometimes samf just does not get it -- Lake Pirates are a clear and present danger and must be dealt with swiftly. How many more murders by Jose Blackbeard must we endure before the extreme liberals will acknowledge our border weaknesses?

SamFisher

10-16-2010, 07:45 PM

Rashmon

10-16-2010, 07:49 PM

jo mama

10-17-2010, 11:03 AM

whoa, these four replies by jo mama must be addressed. But I am going to go out and party first. Even though I have been like totally doing cuervo shots all damn day..wooohoo.

Trust me, if anything is over the line from his posts it WILL be reported.

7:45 on a saturday night! what are you still doing up you little munchkin! by your own standards that almost qualifies as "late night". you are out of control!!! i figured you must have gone to lubys for dinner around 4:30, home at 6 to catch JAG reruns on the WB, a nice warm glass of milk and then straight to bed. but here you are at 7 freaking 45 on a saturday night, still up and everything! party on law boi!

Rokkit

10-17-2010, 11:37 AM

I don't know what's more entertaining:
1. trying to figure out to what extent SamFisher is trolling.
2. watching a back-slapping cadre (such a fun term -- where have I heard it?) of people-wit-der-feewings-huwt-over-deh-yeuhs-by-meanie-SamFishuh gather to call the thread an "ass whooping" etc.

Yeah, I'm just reading the last few pages but it kinda seems like a certain someone is really toying with this thread.

DaDakota

10-17-2010, 11:56 AM

Yeah, I'm just reading the last few pages but it kinda seems like a certain someone is really toying with this thread.

Of course he is.....but it didn't start out that way.

:)

DD

SamFisher

10-17-2010, 12:20 PM

it is funny to have so many pile on sam for once. there is a group that includes sam who likes to pile on others, especially when they dare criticize the obama administration. sam is generally at the forefront of being smarmy and condescending towards others so its nice to see him get it thrown back at him every once in a while. the difference is that in this instance he has totally brought it on himself.

and i dont see any of sams obama-buddies coming to his defense here. that should tell sam that he might want to let this one go.
It's told me a lot about who my real friends are - that's for sure.

But hey pwning (owning) chumps like you on internet is a`dangerous game, you make a lot of enemies. I don't care if the haterz are jealous from all the tapdancing I am doing all over you in this thread (without having to resort to over the line behaviour, like you obviously did).

Anyway, way to try to continue to derail this thread and distract from the true focus with more personal attacks. SO TYPICAL. I don't even know what to say anymore. It's clear that you are using this tragedy to advance some sort of agenda.

But anyway, you expect me to fold, well, I got news for you buddy boy, it ain't happening. I'm not going to ride off into the sunset due to your RAMPANT personal attacks, I am just going to keep on reporting until I'm blue in the face. One of these days you're going to get what's coming to you, and you will see me there buddy boy.

How do you like THOSE particular apples?

MoonDogg

10-17-2010, 01:29 PM

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cerberus714/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

Buck Turgidson

10-17-2010, 06:12 PM

Damn it feels good to be a lawya
A real gangsta-ass lawya plays his torts right
A real gangsta-ass lawya never runs his ****in mouth
Cuz real gangsta-ass lawyas don't start fights

AroundTheWorld

10-17-2010, 06:36 PM

Yeah, I'm just reading the last few pages but it kinda seems like a certain someone is really toying with this thread.

He started trying to make it look like that after he realized he was getting owned in the thread, and now he is just running with it, being his annoying little self. It's his way of coping.

jo mama

10-18-2010, 09:51 AM

Yeah, I'm just reading the last few pages but it kinda seems like a certain someone is really toying with this thread.

after being made to look like a fool for the better part of the thread he is certainly acting that way now.

It's told me a lot about who my real friends are - that's for sure.

But hey pwning (owning) chumps like you on internet is a`dangerous game, you make a lot of enemies. I don't care if the haterz are jealous from all the tapdancing I am doing all over you in this thread (without having to resort to over the line behaviour, like you obviously did).

Anyway, way to try to continue to derail this thread and distract from the true focus with more personal attacks. SO TYPICAL. I don't even know what to say anymore. It's clear that you are using this tragedy to advance some sort of agenda.

But anyway, you expect me to fold, well, I got news for you buddy boy, it ain't happening. I'm not going to ride off into the sunset due to your RAMPANT personal attacks, I am just going to keep on reporting until I'm blue in the face. One of these days you're going to get what's coming to you, and you will see me there buddy boy.

How do you like THOSE particular apples?

i take this to mean you submit to my superior intellect. you could have made this go away pages ago if you simply admitted you were wrong. you jumped the gun on this story and made the repeated mistake of trying to argue for the sake of arguing. once again it made you look foolish and you are trying to backtrack - but its too late lawboi - you have been exposed for who you really are - THE CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME!!!

He started trying to make it look like that after he realized he was getting owned in the thread, and now he is just running with it, being his annoying little self. It's his way of coping.

sam was being his annoying little self from the moment he started posting in this thread. just look at post #2 in this thread. its clear now he is just playing around, but that is only b/c he had been so thoroughly destroyed that pretending he has been messing w/ everyone all along is only thing he can do to save face.

SamFisher

10-18-2010, 10:15 AM

after being made to look like a fool for the better part of the thread he is certainly acting that way now.
.
OH NOES! QUELLE SURPRISE MES SALOPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://i53.tinypic.com/23v17gp.jpg

B-Bob

10-18-2010, 10:43 AM

after that image...

CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAM!

MadMax

10-18-2010, 10:57 AM

http://news-sports.net/?id=632&pg=6&keys=nfl-HispanicHeritageMonth-SpecialEvents-Footballteams

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

On September 26 the Buccaneers will celebrate Hispanic Heritage month at their game against the Steelers. Tampa Hispanic Heritage, Inc.,one of Tampa’s oldest organizations, is in its 31st year of coordinating Tampa’s Hispanic heritage events and will be on-site. The recipients of their 2010 Hispanic Man and Woman of the Year award will participate in the coin toss. This year’s honorees are Mr. Arturo Fuente, Jr., renowned businessman in the Tampa Bay Area, and Ms. Margarita Romo, founder and executive

rocketsjudoka

10-18-2010, 12:30 PM

So are the Buccaneers going to have a Somali heritage month too?

jo mama

10-18-2010, 06:41 PM

So are the Buccaneers going to have a Somali heritage month too?

"YARGHH"
http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/season_13/sp_1307_06.jpg

jo mama

10-18-2010, 06:48 PM

wife gave her testimony - i think she gave it at the mexican consulate in the u.s. - i remember reading last week that the attorney general of the state of tamaulipas wanted her to come there to give a statement, but that would obviously be a very bad idea. if they cut off the head of the investigator what would they do to her?

and there is a new report that it was teenagers associated w/ the zetas who killed him in an attempt to steal the jetski. either way, americans are off-limits for reasons we are seeing now so the culprits are most likely dead.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/18/earlyshow/main6968473.shtml
Jet Ski Victim's Wife Questioned for Eight Hours

Tiffany Hartley, Wife of David Hartley, Says Mexican Cops Went Over Her Account of Day David Was Slain in "Major Detail"

Oct. 18, 2010

The remains of David Hartley have still not been found, but there are new theories on just who might be responsible for his death. At the same time, Mexican officials have been interviewing Hartley's wife Tiffany, getting from her every detail they can about what happened Sept. 30 on Falcon Lake.

The search for David Hartley's body may have been suspended due to intensifying violence on the U.S.-Mexican border, but the investigation of his murder is moving forward.

Friday, Mexican authorities interviewed Hartley's wife, Tiffany, for more than eight hours, later saying she "provided valuable information that will allow federal investigations to continue."

What did they ask her?

Tiffany told "Early Show" co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez Monday she was asked about her last day with David in "major detail."

She said it wasn't an interrogation.

Tiffany's story was initially doubted by Mexican officials.

"(Friday's questioning) was just a witness statement," she told Rodriguez. "We just, between translation and having to go between Spanish and English, it took a long time and then, of course, taking some breaks. So, no, it was just a witness statement."

CBS News correspondent Don Teague reported Mexican investigators plan to interview her again today. But the Texas sheriff who is also investigating the murder wonders why.

Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez, of Zapata County, told CBS News, "I think what they're really doing is trying to discourage her from filing a complaint. I think because of threats from the cartel."

Tiffany said she doesn't know why Gonzalez would say that.

She said, "I mean, he wasn't there. So, he couldn't really, you know, have an idea of what was going on in that room."

Tiffany added she hasn't felt that Mexican officials suspect her.

"I don't have that feeling at all, talking to them and everything," she said. "I think they, you know, they know the cartel. They know what's going on over there. So, I don't have any doubt that they doubt my story."

She continued, "Basically, all the questions were about our day, from when we left our house to the time I left the sheriff's office. So, it's just major in detail and getting everything about the day and what happened."

David Hartley was allegedly shot to death by members of a Mexican drug cartel last month, while he and Tiffany rode jet skis on the Mexican side of Falcon Lake.

Experts have provided differing opinions on why the Hartleys were attacked. Last week an Austin-based security group said the couple was targeted after being mistaken as rival drug smugglers. Now a private investigator says teenagers affiliated with the Zeta drug cartel killed Hartley while trying to steal his jet ski.

Solving this case may be impossible as intimidation tactics like last week's murder and beheading of the Mexican lead investigator have now escalated into fierce gun battles.

Gonzalez said, "Right across the river from us we're actually seeing plumes of smoke from grenades, or the RPGs. We understand yesterday the Mexican soldiers had to retreat and had to go into the garrison and not come out because the cartels were there."

Teague reported Gonzalez says that he is frustrated. The investigation is in the hands of Mexican authorities, and he's left to play a support role.

Tiffany said she Mexican officials said the search would resume over the weekend or today.

She added, "I haven't gotten any word about if that's going to happen today or not, but that's what they were kind of thinking that would happen."

Are the Mexican officials taking the search seriously?

Tiffany said, "I hope so. I mean, I don't know exactly what their plan is. I mean, honestly, we just want David back, that's the only thing we want. You know, if the people are found that -- who did this, that's great. But, at the same time, I think it's going to be pretty hard for them to find out exactly who unless somebody gives them up."

jo mama

10-18-2010, 06:53 PM

another story...

http://www.krgv.com/news/local/story/Teenage-Zetas-on-Falcon-Lake/TESkx5ksH0KJLWBEFeymvA.cspx

Teenage Zetas on Falcon Lake

ZAPATA - Away from the waters of Falcon Lake on the streets of Zapata, Texas, a 17-year-old high school dropout named "Albert" stood with his friends on a street corner Monday afternoon.

He heard about the Zeta drug cartel trying to recruit teenagers like him and lure them into a life of crime.

"I think it would be in a way cool, in a way not because it's really risky," he said. "Because of the money, you can have whatever you want."

Young people who work for the Zetas are sometimes called zetitas, which means little zetas.

Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr. said cartels like the Zetas are recruiting teenagers in Mexico and the United States.

"Basically what they are is individuals that are 15, 14, 16, 17 years old that are working for the Zetas," he said. "We heard about these Zetitas getting $500 bucks a week, $300, $400 bucks a week. More than they can make. They get free drugs and girls and it's very lucrative for them."

Scott Stewart, VP of Tactical Intelligence for STRATFOR, an Austin think tank that analyzes border violence, said the "pirates" who killed David Hartley on Sept. 30 were entry-level Zetas. "Untrained, low level cartel guys.

That's what our intelligence told us," Stewart said.

Stewart said the Zetas are recruiting people at a young age. "Teenagers, they're grabbing young kids," he said.

Sheriff Gonzalez said past victims of the Falcon Lake pirates described their attackers as teenagers.

"Some individuals on the boats looked very, very young and barely even knew how to use the weapon," he said.

"PUNK TEENAGERS!"
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1aTrKKEiz2A/SdIJGPFV52I/AAAAAAAABts/HXuwsLhEcQQ/s320/abe_simpson.gif