Brooks replacement?

[Da Wink]

If unfortunately that AB must be included in the Bosh deal, who do you guys think eventually would replace him? KLowry? (a Yao PG must require 3pt shooting) just curious guys.. ;)

[Nolocke]

I thought everyone knew it was Rubio...........

[chenjy9]

If unfortunately that AB must be included in the Bosh deal, who do you guys think eventually would replace him? KLowry? (a Yao PG must require 3pt shooting) just curious guys.. ;)

Llull :D

[chenjy9]

I thought everyone knew it was Rubio...........

Rubio can't shoot 3's

[SF3isBack!!]

Jared Jeffries :grin:

[Nolocke]

Rubio can't shoot 3's

Neither can Lowry.

[KingStevo10]

maybe shannon brown but he's more of a sg tho

[glimmertwins]

Isn't that less as important now that we have Martin? We relied on AB because we didn't have a 2 who could hit 3s consistently. I say Lowry is the guy to move forward with(as much as I love AB on this team).

[Nolocke]

Isn't that less as important now that we have Martin? We relied on AB because we didn't have a 2 who could hit 3s consistently. I say Lowry is the guy to move forward with(as much as I love AB on this team).

Not to mention we still have Ariza, Bud, and hopefully Battier.

[SF3isBack!!]

I don't see the point of having Bosh without AB. Give them ARIZA!

[Cannonball]

It'd be Lowry. The person who need's to be a 3 point threat is whoever is making the entry pass into Yao. That doesn't necessarily have to be the PG. Just have Battier/Budinger feeding the ball in.

[Raj Da Dodge]

If we HAVE to include Brooks in the deal I'll be really mad...I'd give up anyone on our team except for Yao and Brooks. Even Kev I'd give up...he's our only PG and if we trade him, we would need a legit PG.

[Raj Da Dodge]

No hate to Lowry, he's my 4th fav player on our team and he's amazing, but he's amazing off the bench, idk if he can be starter level yet.

[Tesla]

Lowry is already better then Brooks, so it would be Lowry.

[Cannonball]

Isn't that less as important now that we have Martin? We relied on AB because we didn't have a 2 who could hit 3s consistently. I say Lowry is the guy to move forward with(as much as I love AB on this team).

I think his point was that having 3 point shooters helps prevent defenders from collapsing on Yao. Dream had Kenny Smith, Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Elie, and Bullard to help him out and keep defenders honest.

[rockets88MT]

Brooks replacement???

He is still on the team, until then have some respect

[CHayesIsMyHero]

For anyone who doesnt think Lowry is a legit point guard in the nba, they dont know much about the game of basketball. Just because Lowry cant shoot long 3's and make jump shots as consistent as Brooks does not make him a bad player. Some people only judge players by the shots they make. While other people judge players by how they help the team and make the team better. Lowry is a leader, a general, he draws charges, can draw a foul on offense and get to the free throw line, plays excellent defense, goes up for rebounds like the rockets win the game with each rebound he gets, is one of the better passing point guards in the league, and plays every play like his last (like scola). Brooks may be better at scoring than Lowry, but Lowry is better in almost every phase of the game that does not include scoring. Dont get me wrong, I like Brooks, but people who think Lowry isnt legit, need to gain some knowledge about the game of basketball.

Lastly, I will say this.... I would much rather Lowry have the ball in his hands with 20 seconds on the game clock compared with Brooks. Brooks is a turnover machine during the last possession.

[MrJason]

IMHO we need Brooks. Look at the end of the season, Luis and Martin would not have been as effective without Brooks (and vice versa).

If we get Bosh and Yao in the post, why won't they do zone? Sure we have Martin but teams can double/focus on Martin way easier than a Brooks/Martin combo. Lowry is good but every year with Yao, he's been the main focus. What is Lowry going to do win they double team Yao and he passes it out? Drive into an already crowded lane and draw a foul? Brooks has improved his game drastically in the last year and we need shooters of that level to surround Yao.

[albuster]

Good post. You need to post more.

[KingStevo10]

IMHO we need Brooks. Look at the end of the season, Luis and Martin would not have been as effective without Brooks (and vice versa).

If we get Bosh and Yao in the post, why won't they do zone? Sure we have Martin but teams can double/focus on Martin way easier than a Brooks/Martin combo. Lowry is good but every year with Yao, he's been the main focus. What is Lowry going to do win they double team Yao and he passes it out? Drive into an already crowded lane and draw a foul? Brooks has improved his game drastically in the last year and we need shooters of that level to surround Yao.
This is why we must keep aaron, nice post btw

[albuster]

For anyone who doesnt think Lowry is a legit point guard in the nba, they dont know much about the game of basketball. Just because Lowry cant shoot long 3's and make jump shots as consistent as Brooks does not make him a bad player. Some people only judge players by the shots they make. While other people judge players by how they help the team and make the team better. Lowry is a leader, a general, he draws charges, can draw a foul on offense and get to the free throw line, plays excellent defense, goes up for rebounds like the rockets win the game with each rebound he gets, is one of the better passing point guards in the league, and plays every play like his last (like scola). Brooks may be better at scoring than Lowry, but Lowry is better in almost every phase of the game that does not include scoring. Dont get me wrong, I like Brooks, but people who think Lowry isnt legit, need to gain some knowledge about the game of basketball.

Lastly, I will say this.... I would much rather Lowry have the ball in his hands with 20 seconds on the game clock compared with Brooks. Brooks is a turnover machine during the last possession.
I was referring to your post. Please post more as you show some real good sense.

[glimmertwins]

For anyone who doesnt think Lowry is a legit point guard in the nba, they dont know much about the game of basketball. Just because Lowry cant shoot long 3's and make jump shots as consistent as Brooks does not make him a bad player. Some people only judge players by the shots they make. While other people judge players by how they help the team and make the team better. Lowry is a leader, a general, he draws charges, can draw a foul on offense and get to the free throw line, plays excellent defense, goes up for rebounds like the rockets win the game with each rebound he gets, is one of the better passing point guards in the league, and plays every play like his last (like scola). Brooks may be better at scoring than Lowry, but Lowry is better in almost every phase of the game that does not include scoring. Dont get me wrong, I like Brooks, but people who think Lowry isnt legit, need to gain some knowledge about the game of basketball.

Lastly, I will say this.... I would much rather Lowry have the ball in his hands with 20 seconds on the game clock compared with Brooks. Brooks is a turnover machine during the last possession.

I said basically the same thing in another thread here on AB. AB doesn't do anything else above average for the PG spot aside from score. I still love AB, but Lowry is more than capable of taking the starter role with his excellent defense, excellent rebounding for a PG, he drives and gets fouled at a decent clip, is more of a pass first guy, etc.

[SF3isBack!!]

For anyone who doesnt think Lowry is a legit point guard in the nba, they dont know much about the game of basketball. Just because Lowry cant shoot long 3's and make jump shots as consistent as Brooks does not make him a bad player. Some people only judge players by the shots they make. While other people judge players by how they help the team and make the team better. Lowry is a leader, a general, he draws charges, can draw a foul on offense and get to the free throw line, plays excellent defense, goes up for rebounds like the rockets win the game with each rebound he gets, is one of the better passing point guards in the league, and plays every play like his last (like scola). Brooks may be better at scoring than Lowry, but Lowry is better in almost every phase of the game that does not include scoring. Dont get me wrong, I like Brooks, but people who think Lowry isnt legit, need to gain some knowledge about the game of basketball.

Lastly, I will say this.... I would much rather Lowry have the ball in his hands with 20 seconds on the game clock compared with Brooks. Brooks is a turnover machine during the last possession.

Lowry is great I personally think that the Brooks/Lowry combo is what makes our team so special. If we trade either one we would be losing depth. I think Ariza or Battier are far easier to replace than Aaron Brooks. IMO Brooks/Lowry/Martin/Yao should all be untouchable unless it's for Lebron or D. Wade.

[mikeyharris]

If, unfortunately, Brooks is part of a package for Bosh then I'd like to see us sign one of the following. (Listed in order of who would be best)

Raymond Felton- Will probably demand more $ than the rockets can afford.
Luke Ridnour- Lots of teams interested
Steve Blake- Realistic, very good 3pt shooter.
Jordan Farmar- Young, potential but restricted
Chris Duhon- Hasn't lived up to potential
Jason Williams- Old but still has skill

[coachbadlee]

I definitely thin that Lowry is more than capable of running this team. Although, it would hurt to lse Brooks.

[SF3isBack!!]

If, unfortunately, Brooks is part of a package for Bosh then I'd like to see us sign one of the following. (Listed in order of who would be best)

Raymond Felton- Will probably demand more $ than the rockets can afford.
Luke Ridnour- Lots of teams interested
Steve Blake- Realistic, very good 3pt shooter.
Jordan Farmar- Young, potential but restricted
Chris Duhon- Hasn't lived up to potential
Jason Williams- Old but still has skill

Raymond Felton - Trash
Luke Ridnour - Complete Rubbish
Steve Blake - Decent
Jordan Farmar - Will not be leaving the lakers
Chris Duhon - No Comment
Jason Williams - Should've Retired in 07

[glimmertwins]

I think his point was that having 3 point shooters helps prevent defenders from collapsing on Yao. Dream had Kenny Smith, Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Elie, and Bullard to help him out and keep defenders honest.
No I get it - I lived through every agonizing moment of that Houston "offense" that was beautiful when it worked and nearly unwatchable when shots weren't falling. Didn't Houston set some sort of a record for 3 point shots taken during that period? I don't think we need to be structuring our team around some sort of statistical outlier. That it worked was part of what was so amazing about that team, but I don't think this is a team that literally has to funnel every single possession through Yao to be effective. Hakeem in those years was unstoppable. I doubt Yao will ever reach Hakeem levels of destroying a team.

My point is we NEEDED AB on the court with Yao to make up for a lack of a reliable 3pt shooting SG on the floor but with Kevin Martin in the lineup, you have another reliable 3 pt shooter that you didn't have before - that is if defenses truly are collapsing on Yao and forcing anyone else to beat them. In the Hakeem era, opposing teams had no choice but to try to double and triple team Hakeem because he was nearly automatic otherwise and frankly there was hardly anyone else on the roster who could get their own shot reliably(until Drexler). This Houston team bears no resemblance to those Houston teams aside from the superficial comparison that our best players for both squads was a center.

[k-money]

cp3. ;)

[SF3isBack!!]

cp3. ;)

So after a sign and trade to send AB to toronto we are somehow gonna do a nother one to get CP3 annnd have no role players or draft picks what so ever. That might work, lol.

[PeppermintCandy]

Lowry would get a crack at the starter's job, and hopefully he develops a better jumper than Rafer.

[Shroopy2]

Rubio can't shoot 3's
Neither can 2x NBA Finalist Rajon Rondo

[CHayesIsMyHero]

I think Brooks can be a perfect 6 man off the bench. Even though I would miss Lowry and the way that bench unit could run and gun. Lowry is perfect with Budinger and Hill. But anyways back to the Brooks off the bench, I think he would be a good Jason Terry type. I just wish Brooks was 6'4 or 6'5 and could play the 2.

[rockets934life]

Raymond Felton - Trash
Luke Ridnour - Complete Rubbish
Steve Blake - Decent
Jordan Farmar - Will not be leaving the lakers
Chris Duhon - No Comment
Jason Williams - Should've Retired in 07

Felton is not trash, look at his numbers and they will be close if not right there with Brooks in most categories...

AB is soooooooo overrated on this board, love the little guy but some of you are willing to say NO to an ELITE level talent like Bosh just to keep Brooks around??? I am sure if AB is gone, Morey already has that covered either with another move or MLE.

[CHayesIsMyHero]

Oh yeah and to answer the question about what would Lowry do when he is passed the ball from a double teamed Yao or Bosh. That is super easy to answer. Say Yao is double teamed down low, he passes the ball to Lowry.... Lowry will have four options when he receives the ball. But before I get to his options, let me talk about what the defense is doing at the moment he gets the ball. If Yao is double teamed that means the paint is clogged up. 2 guys are on Yao and one guy is on Bosh or whoever the power forward is. That means our 3 perimeter guys only have 2 guys covering them. That means there is one guy in between Lowry and Martin and another guy in between Martin and Ariza. When Yao passes to Lowry, he can either shoot of course. 2. drive through the gap the defense has created and shoot a 15 footer, or 3. drive through the gap the defense has created and kick out to a wide open martin or ariza when the defense collapses or finally 4. drive through the gap and then if a big man collapses on Lowry, he dishes off to Yao or Bosh for a layup/dunk... EASY

[ryano2009]

Randy Foye..?

[cyntil8ing]

There's also Carlos Arroyo to throw into the mix of FA PGs. Steady vet at the helm, decent height, low TO ratio, and a good defensive presence that won't require a ton of minutes should Lowry start as our PG in place of AB. His only con would probably be the lack of a 3pt shot.

Did i mention that he was affordable? ;)

[melvimbe]

If Yao is double teamed that means the paint is clogged up. 2 guys are on Yao and one guy is on Bosh or whoever the power forward is. That means our 3 perimeter guys only have 2 guys covering them. That means there is one guy in between Lowry and Martin and another guy in between Martin and Ariza.

You kinda skipped the step where get the ball into Yao or Bosh first. If Lowry is doing the entry pass, then his defender simply sags off, making the entry pass rather risky, daring Lowry to shoot. No double teams yet, so know one is covered. Put Brooks in the same spot and we just got a three.

Of course it gets more complicated to that, but the point is that if teams do not have to respect the outside shot of one of the perimeter guys, they have a much easier time. RA will have to make the defense scramble much of the time before we can get an easy shot off.

That's not to say that Lowry isn't a big plus on other areas of the court.

[Stevierebel]

Like all of Morey's other moves, he usually has a follow through move lined up to fill in the appropriate gaps.

Should be interesting if Bosh happens and then if they get the next guy in best case scenario summer.

[clutch citizen]

I'll be it's one of the backup PG's at Denver or New Orleans

[rock4ever]

Neither can Lowry.
Is Rubio a lockdown defender who can rebound efficiently? Lowry is

[ivenovember]

ISHMAEL SMITH!!!!!

[eman]

We'd do well to keep AB and K-Low. I hope K-Low's been shooting thousands of catch-and-shoot threes every day this off-season...

[Janie_031883]

Brooks replacement???

He is still on the team, until then have some respect
Totally agree w/ you, I don't Brooks going no where, the way my husband explains it to me, we don't really need him but I really don't want to lose him. I think our team is just fine the way it is and we should focus on how to make it work now, Whoo Go Rockets!

[Icehouse]

Brooks? What the hell? Ok, forgive me for my sins. I went to sleep last night and am just now signing in. There are tons of Bosh threads and I don't wanna search through each one. Did we offer Brooks, or is that what Toronto is demanding?

[REEKO_HTOWN]

I'm sure the addition of a Bosh, Amar'e or even a JJ would impact the amount of shots AB would take. AB would have to become a pass first PG which I don't think he would be good at because of his poor court vision.

I'd hate to lose AB but with a Superstar on this team and Yao coming back you'd see a significant drop in AB's stats. I think that's why Morey wouldn't mind selling high of him before his contract becomes larger.

[worzel gummidge]

Brooks? What the hell? Ok, forgive me for my sins. I went to sleep last night and am just now signing in. There are tons of Bosh threads and I don't wanna search through each one. Did we offer Brooks, or is that what Toronto is demanding?
Chad Ford jotting down a hypothetical.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/17346/the-rockets-pitch-to-bosh

[Big MAK]

I dont think we will give up AB, unless we get another PG in the deal.

It will likely be Hill, Battier, pick, and maybe jeffries or some other role player. While brooks isn't a CP or DW, he's still a very good pg, especailly for yao bc of his 3pt shooting. keeping brooks and getting bosh would be a big step forward. losing brooks and gaining bosh would be a baby step.

[J.R.]

Brooks? What the hell? Ok, forgive me for my sins. I went to sleep last night and am just now signing in. There are tons of Bosh threads and I don't wanna search through each one. Did we offer Brooks, or is that what Toronto is demanding?

No one knows the offer. It was Chad Ford speculating on a package Houston could put together.

[ooliverb1]

If he is involved in a trade, then Rockets will start Lowry and get another backup, maybe steve blake?

[Icehouse]

Chad Ford jotting down a hypothetical.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/17346/the-rockets-pitch-to-bosh

Whew...ok (thanks to you as well hsf09). I was about to say....that would just be dumb. Brooks isn't the best PG in the world but Lowry can't space the floor like he does.

[REEKO_HTOWN]

Whew...ok (thanks to you as well hsf09). I was about to say....that would just be dumb. Brooks isn't the best PG in the world but Lowry can't space the floor like he does.

You know what spaces the floor?

A double team commanding tandem Yao and Bosh.

[tested911]

T.J. Ford... Past 1st PG will all the tools we have is a perfect fit. We don't need a shooting PG like Brooks because we have KM, Yao, Bosh(Hopefully), Scola(Maybe), Ariza, Battier to do the shooting for us.. We need a floor general ala Steve Nash..

[Rocket4Life11]

Mlwoo faints while reading the title of this thread

[BigTex]

need a good shooter to go along with lowry

[DaDakota]

Reading this thread will cause your basketball IQ to drop 50 points.

Brooks started for one year, and had to carry the team on his shoulders...averaged nearly 20ppg, 5+ assists, and made the most 3pt shots of ANYONE in the NBA, so much so, that he won the Most improved player award again, for the entire league.

He will only get better, and I seriously DOUBT Morey would give him up for Bosh, no need to do that..he can get him with less.

Toronto has NO leverage here, if Bosh wants to come to Houston, they have to take what Houston offers...

And frankly offering Brooks would be STUPID !!!!

DD

[ROXTXIA]

Naturally, when we even mention Aaron Brooks, it's because Chad Ford floated his name in a hypothetical.

Makes SOME sense, certainly on Toronto's side, as he was offered before in a deal for Bosh (along with Ron-Ron). That was before AB blew up. Toronto'd sure have interest now.

If----IF----AB was sent to Toronto, I imagine the deal would be expanded so that we get Jarrett Jack, Bosh's running buddy from college days (I believe).

[durvasa]

Lowry would be the logical replacement, if Brooks goes. One scenario might be that we trade Brooks, lock in Lowry this summer, sign Foye at a bargain price, and roll with those two at PG. Maybe we add a third PG later on for more depth.

How much would Brooks be looking to make next summer? That has to be a consideration here. If Morey can deal Brooks instead of his Knicks draft picks (and it looks like they could very well be high lottery picks), he may very well do that. I think some people here really underestimate how much the Rockets like Lowry.

[hotdamn]

T.J. Ford... Past 1st PG will all the tools we have is a perfect fit. We don't need a shooting PG like Brooks because we have KM, Yao, Bosh(Hopefully), Scola(Maybe), Ariza, Battier to do the shooting for us.. We need a floor general ala Steve Nash..


Nash is a good shoot :eek:

[ChievousFTFace]

Lowry is a better pure PG than Brooks, while Brooks is the better overall talent. I would hate to see AB go, but if it meant bringing Bosh in... you have to pull that trigger and then set up a second trade for a PG dangling Battier or Ariza + picks.

[justtxyank]

Toronto has NO leverage here, if Bosh wants to come to Houston, they have to take what Houston offers...

And frankly offering Brooks would be STUPID !!!!

DD

That's not true actually. Houston is the one team Toronto does have leverage with.

Look, no matter where Bosh goes he is going by sign and trade. The threat of "if you don't trade me to Houston I will sign a max deal with..." isn't going to work because everyone knows Bosh isn't leaving the money on the table. So if Bosh picks Houston, Toronto will say, "give us our price or we'll just refuse to do the deal" knowing they'll either get their price or Bosh will just pick a different city.

[justtxyank]

Lowry would be the logical replacement, if Brooks goes. One scenario might be that we trade Brooks, lock in Lowry this summer, sign Foye at a bargain price, and roll with those two at PG. Maybe we add a third PG later on for more depth.

How much would Brooks be looking to make next summer? That has to be a consideration here. If Morey can deal Brooks instead of his Knicks draft picks (and it looks like they could very well be high lottery picks), he may very well do that. I think some people here really underestimate how much the Rockets like Lowry.

This is a very interesting post. Forgot about Brooks needing a raise soon. If adding Brooks saves all the draft picks, Morey might love that idea.

Edit: remember that on a team with Martin, Bosh and Yao, you will not be asking your PG to score a lot for you.

[rock4ever]

T.J. Ford... Past 1st PG will all the tools we have is a perfect fit. We don't need a shooting PG like Brooks because we have KM, Yao, Bosh(Hopefully), Scola(Maybe), Ariza, Battier to do the shooting for us.. We need a floor general ala Steve Nash..
TJ ford is a past first shoot NEVER point guard. If ur looking for purely assist then fine. But when ur PG cant hit open three's on a squad with more than one superstar, then it's pointless.

Also, Lowry is one of my favorites. But he is not suit to start on a team with Yao and another superstar. He's a pace changer who does better coming off the bench. Answer, KEEP AB.

[DaDakota]

You know, they could trade Lowry....in the Bosh deal.

I know, I know, I just blew your minds !!

;)

DD

[REEKO_HTOWN]

You know, they could trade Lowry....in the Bosh deal.

I know, I know, I just blew your minds !!

;)

DD

Trade the only Point Guard on this team? I know, I know...

[Russjr2]

With Yao, Bosh, and Martin, we would probably need more of a set-up PG, not a scoring one. I like AB as much as the next guy, but in all honesty he is not a set up PG. He has proven that over the past two years. He is a scorer. Pretty good one, but not a playmaker or shot creator for others. If we add more talent to the starting lineup they will need the ball to produce. Can't have your PG taking shots away from them. Lowry would penetrate and dish all day long. So, I guess we shall see how it all goes down in about 5 days.

[justtxyank]

You know, they could trade Lowry....in the Bosh deal.

I know, I know, I just blew your minds !!

;)

DD

I thought you couldn't include resigned players with others in the deal?

[DaDakota]

I thought you couldn't include resigned players with others in the deal?

Just do a sign and trade, I believe that works...

DD

[justtxyank]

Just do a sign and trade, I believe that works...

DD

You think Toronto would want a signed and traded Lowry at max dollars?

Maybe you just blew YOUR mind.

[DaDakota]

You think Toronto would want a signed and traded Lowry at max dollars?

Maybe you just blew YOUR mind.

LOL - not on your life, just saying include him in the mix......come on now....don't be obtuse.

Lowry will get a Sessions type of deal...maybe.....

DD

[justtxyank]

LOL - not on your life, just saying include him in the mix......come on now....don't be obtuse.

DD

Dude, like I said, I thought you couldn't sign and trade a player in a combination of other players.

I've read here that you can't do a sign and trade for Bosh that includes us signing and trading Scola along with other assets.

Don't be obese.

[DaDakota]

Dude, like I said, I thought you couldn't sign and trade a player in a combination of other players.

I've read here that you can't do a sign and trade for Bosh that includes us signing and trading Scola along with other assets.


You do it as an ancillary deal.

Man, I have to explain everything....no cognitive thought around here sometimes.

But it is nice to know you can read.

;)

DD

[justtxyank]

You do it as an ancillary deal.

Man, I have to explain everything....no cognitive thought around here sometimes.

But it is nice to know you can read.

;)

DD

OK, so write up a logical deal that would get Lowry to Toronto in a separate deal for something AND a deal for a sign and trade of Chris Bosh.

[SamFisher]

Reading this thread will cause your basketball IQ to drop 50 points.

Brooks started for one year, and had to carry the team on his shoulders...averaged nearly 20ppg, 5+ assists, and made the most 3pt shots of ANYONE in the NBA, so much so, that he won the Most improved player award again, for the entire league.

He carried the team all the way to the lottery and the Rockets managed to be better on offense when he was NOT on the floor - good job Aaron!

[justtxyank]

He carried the team all the way to the lottery and the Rockets managed to be better on offense when he was NOT on the floor - good job Aaron!

VSpan would have been better.

[DaDakota]

He carried the team all the way to the lottery and the Rockets managed to be better on offense when he was NOT on the floor - good job Aaron!

Yeah, that is a shock considering he was saddled with those hard charging offensive juggernauts, Hayes, Ariza and Battier in the lineup with him.

How did Bosh do in leading his team this year? hmmmmmm?

VSpan would have been better.

Ah, the Greek Lowry..yes....

DD

[justtxyank]

Ah, the Greek Lowry..yes....

DD

The Greek Lowry? LOL

You wish he had been as good as Lowry. No defense, lost in the offense, turnover machine, shot jacker...sure sounds like Lowry to me.

You're delusional DD. At least you sign your posts though so I can just chuckle at the end and go "ohhhhhhhh it's DD" instead of taking them too seriously. :)

[SamFisher]

Yeah, that is a shock considering he was saddled with those hard charging offensive juggernauts, Hayes, Ariza and Battier in the lineup with him.

Playing with that same juggernaut, it wasn't a hindrance for Kevin Martin to outperform his replacement and it wasn't a hindrance for Kyle Lowry. Guess who he was replacing.

This thread is about replacing Brooks. The fact that the Rockets did not do any worse when he went off the floor, and in fact even got slightly better, indicates to me that the replacement cost may not be as drastic as is being posited.

[Vrazz]

Move K-Mart to the pg. Then start C-Bud as sg.

Pretty simple.

[REEKO_HTOWN]

Move K-Mart to the pg. Then start C-Bud as sg.

Pretty simple.

Pretty awful.

[justtxyank]

Move K-Mart to the pg. Then start C-Bud as sg.

Pretty simple.

Signed,

Jeff Bagwell to third base

[Spacemoth]

I think the reason why Brooks is a more attractive trade piece is for a variety of reasons. The main ones supported by posters so far are that he does fit in with the system better than Brooks once you add Yao and Bosh to the mix because the paint becomes infinitely more clogged and a penetrator like Brooks has less utility. My added reasons for preferring Lowry over Brooks (straight up) are:

1. Brooks had better stats last year, was named the MIP of the NBA, and as such has the most trade value.

2. Brooks stands to make a lot more money over the next five years than Lowry who will probably get his 3-5M per year contract for the next five years in this offseason. Brooks in an open market next year might cost 8-12M per even if he only costs 2M this year.

3. While Brooks is a shooter and Lowry is not, someone like Rondo has shown that you don't need to be a good shooter to coexist on a team of stars, just don't make stupid decisions. Lowry and Rondo share this trait, and they have a similar bulldog mentality to their games that lends itself to winning. The difference between the two of course is that Rondo is long and creative in the paint to get the majority of his points, where Lowry is equally athletic but manifested as not length but a combination of speed and strength. He barrels his way into the paint, draws fouls, shoots free throws, and makes them at a much higher rate than Rondo does. This component of his game also synergizes well with Martin and Yao, both foul-drawing free-throw-shooting aces who become much more effective in the bonus.

4. The other thing Lowry and Rondo have in common, and the most important point of the four: DEFENSE. By carrying this bulldog mentality and combining above average strength at the point, Lowry is a much better on-ball defender (and team defender I would say) than Brooks. You can't really hope to win a championship playing Mike D'Antoni Don Nelson basketball; you NEED defense. In the last decade, the Spurs, Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers have all proven this. In the backcourt, I'll take someone as offensively efficient as Kevin Martin even if he's defensively up to snuff, but you can't afford to have both backcourt spots so inept at that end. Brooks loses to Martin by being less offensively efficient while just as if not more defensively lacking. It just makes senses to pair Martin up with Lowry.

So no, even if all things were equal financially, I would still go with Lowry as my starter. If we keep Brooks I think he's a fantastic 6th man for his penetrating ability, but that skill is gonna take a hit with Yao back in the middle. He can still put up lots of threes, but Budinger and Martin and Battier can do that also. Give me defense or give me death. That needs to be our mantra if we have any hopes of making noise in June.

[Vrazz]

Pretty awful.

K-Mart might not have the handles of Brooks...but he can score and C-Bud is coming into his own.

This has "potential" written all over it. Plus with Yao, Bosh, and possibly Ariza or Scola.........not bad.

[durvasa]

K-Mart might not have the handles of Brooks...but he can score and C-Bud is coming into his own.

This has "potential" written all over it. Plus with Yao, Bosh, and possibly Ariza or Scola.........not bad.

Who would guard opposing PGs in your proposed lineup?

[cyntil8ing]

No doubt that just about everyone would want to keep Brooks in the team, myself included, but it's tough to deny that he's probably the biggest trade asset over Chicago and Miami in a SnT scenario.

Those 2 teams don't have anything nearly as attractive to trade seeing as their rosters are just about stripped of all their players and, by the article's I've read, Chicago's looking to keep the tandem of Noah and Rose intact and Miami's has what? Beasly and Chalmers for Bosh? Houston has a more attractive package to offer by far.

On an interesting note, I wonder how they'd work with their PG rotation between AB and Calderon.

[dwade2350]

to me it seems like lowry is more of a "true" PG than brooks is. true everyone loves brooke bc he scores at clutch times and such, but at the end of the day a PG is a facilitator, someone who leads the team and distributes. lowry pushes the tempo at the correct times and his passes are almost always right on the dot. i would never want to give up brooks and i agree lowry must come off the bench, but if brooks were to leave, we would alrdy have a solid replacement

[justtxyank]

Who would guard opposing PGs in your proposed lineup?

Seriously. Martin fakes guarding 2 guards, imagine him trying to guard fast point guards. LOL

[REEKO_HTOWN]

Who would guard opposing PGs in your proposed lineup?

Yao of course because opposing PGs would fly by Martin to the basket forcing Yao to foul out in the first half....

[Rocket_4_Life]

Lowry would be the logical replacement, if Brooks goes. One scenario might be that we trade Brooks, lock in Lowry this summer, sign Foye at a bargain price, and roll with those two at PG. Maybe we add a third PG later on for more depth.

How much would Brooks be looking to make next summer? That has to be a consideration here. If Morey can deal Brooks instead of his Knicks draft picks (and it looks like they could very well be high lottery picks), he may very well do that. I think some people here really underestimate how much the Rockets like Lowry.

I like this. I think Foye's a capable backup that can shoot and penetrate relatively well.

[Vrazz]

Who would guard opposing PGs in your proposed lineup?

LOL!

The same can be said if Brooks is starting also. /Jus sayin/

Look. I'm just proposing an alternative...It's not doom and gloom as some on here paint it if we lose Brooks to get Bosh.

[justtxyank]

LOL!

The same can be said if Brooks is starting also. /Jus sayin/

Look. I'm just proposing an alternative...It's not doom and gloom as some on here paint it if we lose Brooks to get Bosh.

Brooks isn't a good defender, but at least he has his speed to help him stay with guys. With Martin on them opposing PGs would just go right by him forcing the other guys on the team to shift to stop the penetration. There would be more penetration and scoring than an orgy scene in Caligula!

[Vrazz]

Brooks isn't a good defender, but at least he has his speed to help him stay with guys. With Martin on them opposing PGs would just go right by him forcing the other guys on the team to shift to stop the penetration. There would be more penetration and scoring than an orgy scene in Caligula!

Brooks is quick no doubt. But K-Mart would do just fine. Or fine enough. Not too many guards are driving down the middle with Yao waiting in the wings. Plus we would have Bosh as well......Double trouble in the middle.

[justtxyank]

Brooks is quick no doubt. But K-Mart would do just fine. Or fine enough. Not too many guards are driving down the middle with Yao waiting in the wings. Plus we would have Bosh as well......Double trouble in the middle.

Opposing teams would love to know that your strategy on defense was basically to rely on your foul prone, limp foot center to guard their POINT GUARD.

[cjstukenholtz]

This is a very interesting post. Forgot about Brooks needing a raise soon. If adding Brooks saves all the draft picks, Morey might love that idea.

Edit: remember that on a team with Martin, Bosh and Yao, you will not be asking your PG to score a lot for you.
Rafer Alston, anyone?

Actually, having a pg who doesn't scare opposing defenses wouldn't work too well IMO. Just think, if you ever had a guy like Rafer at pg even with that trio, opposing defenses could just focus more on stopping that trio than ever.

[justtxyank]

Rafer Alston, anyone?

Actually, having a pg who doesn't scare opposing defenses wouldn't work too well IMO. Just think, if you ever had a guy like Rafer at pg even with that trio, opposing defenses could just focus more on stopping that trio than ever.

You don't want a black hole like Rafer, but you don't need a big scoring threat.

[ctry2582]

As we saw with Landry, Morey is willing to do what it takes to upgrade the team. Fan favorite or not.

What I do think though, is, like Landry, Brooks is on the last year of his deal. It's nice to keep these guys, but when it's time to pay up, I don't think Morey is willing to break the bank. Hence trading them while their stock is high.

[Vrazz]

Opposing teams would love to know that your strategy on defense was basically to rely on your foul prone, limp foot center to guard their POINT GUARD.

That's not my strategy....Just stating that would be a deterrent.

The bigger question which I'm surprised you haven't touched on is C-Bud. Unless you feel he is capable of handling the sg...as starter that is.

I'm sure the fo has plans in case Brooks has to be moved. I was just pointing out it could in fact work.

[dwade2350]

As we saw with Landry, Morey is willing to do what it takes to upgrade the team. Fan favorite or not.

What I do think though, is, like Landry, Brooks is on the last year of his deal. It's nice to keep these guys, but when it's time to pay up, I don't think Morey is willing to break the bank. Hence trading them while their stock is high.


so true, players become fan favorites, but at the end of the day this is a business and we all have to get over it and Morey will only improve the team

[justtxyank]

That's not my strategy....Just stating that would be a deterrent.

The bigger question which I'm surprised you haven't touched on is C-Bud. Unless you feel he is capable of handling the sg...as starter that is.

I'm sure the fo has plans in case Brooks has to be moved. I was just pointing out it could in fact work.

You haven't actually pointed out that it could work. Martin at PG doesn't work. Martin at PG on defense is like having no one at PG on defense. It's not even because he's not a good defender, it's because he couldn't consistently stay in front of any pgs in the league. The other team would just run by him every play until you either took him out of the game or Yao fouled out. It would be a disaster.

What do you mean we haven't touched on C-Bud? Are you suggesting him as the PG now?

Edit: And Yao in the center would not be a deterrent to opposing point guards being guarded by Kevin Martin. Even if they didn't score, opposing teams would salivate at the thought of being able to get their pg defended by Yao whenever they wanted. He'd be on the bench with foul trouble every single game.

[DaDakota]

Yeah, we finally have a top 8 PG in the league and some folks want to replace him with a career backup.

BRILLIANT !!

DD

[REEKO_HTOWN]

Yeah, we finally have a top 8 PG in the league and some folks want to replace him with a career backup.

BRILLIANT !!

DD


Saying AB is a Top 8 PG is downright...stupid.

Nash
D-Will
CP3
Rondo
Billups
Curry
Rose
Evans
Kidd
Parker
Westbrook

[Spacemoth]

Rafer Alston, anyone?

Actually, having a pg who doesn't scare opposing defenses wouldn't work too well IMO. Just think, if you ever had a guy like Rafer at pg even with that trio, opposing defenses could just focus more on stopping that trio than ever.

Rafer in his entire career has never had an efficiency as high as Lowry's last year, and it's much harder to be efficient in a backup role with a low usage rate. Plus, Lowry's just 24 years old. He's unquestionably a better offensive threat than Rafer. His A/TO ratio was 2.64. The only thing for him to work on is his shot, but thankfully that's the one thing NBA players have shown they can improve over the course of their careers.

[justtxyank]

Yeah, we finally have a top 8 PG in the league and some folks want to replace him with a career backup.

BRILLIANT !!

DD

Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
Derrick rose

Are all above Brooks. Then you have Billups, Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Jason Kidd, Stephen Curry, Jameer Nelson and Aaron Brooks all arguing for the spots after that top 5. I don't think it's a guarantee that Brooks is top 8, and even if it is, I think the drop off is pretty significant.

[DaDakota]

Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
Derrick rose

Are all above Brooks. Then you have Billups, Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Jason Kidd, Stephen Curry, Jameer Nelson and Aaron Brooks all arguing for the spots after that top 5. I don't think it's a guarantee that Brooks is top 8, and even if it is, I think the drop off is pretty significant.

He is clearly top 10 in the entire NBA in his first year as a starter, and people want to replace him with a career backup PG who can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Backup quarterback syndrome take a bow !

DD

[justtxyank]

He is clearly top 10 in the entire NBA in his first year as a starter, and people want to replace him with a career backup PG who can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Backup quarterback syndrome take a bow !

DD

Clearly top 8!
Clearly top 10!

Before this thread is over he'll clearly be one of the top 30!

Anyone, not many people are actually arguing to replace him, just that replacing him with Lowry if it nets us Bosh isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Rocket...AB]

if we have to give up AB for bosh then NO WAY we need AB hes a very very good player and hes just begun and we have nobody good enough to take hes place and like who ever write this said u have to be able to shoot a lot of threes and MAKE THEM and AB has proven that over and over again!!!!!

[mag]

Why do we need to include AB? Raptors are not in position to demand anything. They won't get anything if they don't do a deal with the Rockets! We should give them Hill, Battier, Jefries, Hayes, a NY pick, etc.

[REEKO_HTOWN]

This is not about us replacing Brooks just to replace him!!!

This is about getting an All-star PF in return!!

All-Star power forward for an undersized "PG" drafted late in the first round!!



!!!!!!!!1111111

[DaDakota]

Clearly top 8!
Clearly top 10!

Before this thread is over he'll clearly be one of the top 30!

Anyone, not many people are actually arguing to replace him, just that replacing him with Lowry if it nets us Bosh isn't the worst thing in the world.

Look, I think he is top 8, I was trying to give you a little lattitude in your argument.

If you are going to be an asshole about it, then fine.

Yes, he is top 8....Yes, Lowry is a career backup who is not top 30....

Yes it would be an IDIOTIC thing to replace a top 8 PG with a below 30 one who can't shoot the basketball.

Hey, maybe we can get Doug Gotleib to lace them back up, he is better at setting teamates up than Lowry and can't shoot it either.

DD

[rockets934life]

This is not about us replacing Brooks just to replace him!!!

This is about getting an All-star PF in return!!

All-Star power forward for an undersized "PG" drafted late in the first round!!



!!!!!!!!1111111

You can scream this from the top of lungs and some people just won't get it...each his own of course but I just pull my hair out trying to understand.

[DaDakota]

You can scream this from the top of lungs and some people just won't get it...each his own of course but I just pull my hair out trying to understand.

He can scream it, he is just not looking at the whole picture.

Because it only makes the team incrementally better, they already have a very good PF playing now.

And a good number of us, look at how it effects the whole team and are not just drooling over getting Chris Bosh.

Because ultimatly it is the TEAM that needs to get better, not just one position.

Getting stronger at PF is good.

Getting a lot weaker at PG is bad...

Get it? Got it? Good.

DD

[justtxyank]

Look, I think he is top 8, I was trying to give you a little lattitude in your argument.

Fair enough

If you are going to be an asshole about it, then fine.

Don't get so emotional about it, it's not like I kicked VSpan in the nuts or something.

Yes, he is top 8....Yes, Lowry is a career backup who is not top 30....

I do not believe there are 30 PGs in the league better than Kyle Lowry. I'm sorry you do. Your fascination with mediocre players yet disdain for solid players like Lowry is interesting.

Yes it would be an IDIOTIC thing to replace a top 8 PG with a below 30 one who can't shoot the basketball.

You are right it would be if the net difference was merely that you replaced Brooks with Lowry. Luckily that is not what it is being discussed.

Hey, maybe we can get Doug Gotleib to lace them back up, he is better at setting teamates up than Lowry and can't shoot it either.

Your sarcasm is weak old man.

http://www.professorbeej.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DarthVader.jpg

[rockets934life]

He can scream it, he is just not looking at the whole picture.

Because it only makes the team incrementally better, they already have a very good PF playing now.

And a good number of us, look at how it effects the whole team and are not just drooling over getting Chris Bosh.

Because ultimatly it is the TEAM that needs to get better, not just one position.

Getting stronger at PF is good.

Getting a lot weaker at PG is bad...

Get it? Got it? Good.

DD

I guess, for me, it comes down to thinking that adding Bosh while losing AB will still make this team better and understanding that while we may lose the little guy, Morey is far from done and another move or two will eventually come to replace AB.

[DaDakota]

Your sarcasm is weak old man.

http://www.professorbeej.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DarthVader.jpg

Now that is funny.

I guess, for me, it comes down to thinking that adding Bosh while losing AB will still make this team better and understanding that while we may lose the little guy, Morey is far from done and another move or two will eventually come to replace AB.

The Rockets have been looking for a quality PG for more than a decade, they are not easily replaced, especially ones that can lead the NBA in 3pters made, giving Yao the room he needs to operate on the low block.

DD

[DarylMoney]

He can scream it, he is just not looking at the whole picture.

Because it only makes the team incrementally better, they already have a very good PF playing now.

And a good number of us, look at how it effects the whole team and are not just drooling over getting Chris Bosh.

Because ultimatly it is the TEAM that needs to get better, not just one position.

Getting stronger at PF is good.

Getting a lot weaker at PG is bad...

Get it? Got it? Good.

DD

So if DM pulls the trigger on a deal including Brooks for Bosh he isn't looking out for the best interest of the Rox?

[justtxyank]

Now that is funny.

DD

I'm glad to make you laugh. You don't need to take it so seriously.

[DaDakota]

I'm glad to make you laugh. You don't need to take it so seriously.

I don't honestly, but when I post something and then try to give a little bit back because of a well reasoned discussion only to have it tossed back in my face like that is annoying.

:grin:

So if DM pulls the trigger on a deal including Brooks for Bosh he isn't looking out for the best interest of the Rox?

He won't, he is not that stupid.

DD

[REEKO_HTOWN]

I'd like a PG that can get the ball to Yao in the block without it being a turnover or a stupid bounce pass. Is that too much to ask for?

[durvasa]

Look, I think he is top 8, I was trying to give you a little lattitude in your argument.

DD

Which of these players would you rate under Brooks?

Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Rajon Rondo
Steve Nash
Chauncey Billups
Derek Rose
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker

[coachbadlee]

I have seen alot worse shooting than Lowry's. It's not like his shot is non-existent. I even recall a few 3 pointers sprinkled here and there throughout the season. :confused:

[DarylMoney]

I don't honestly, but when I post something and then try to give a little bit back because of a well reasoned discussion only to have it tossed back in my face like that is annoying.

:grin:



He won't, he is not that stupid.

DD


Ahh gotcha. I forget sometimes that you are the subject mater expert of all things Rocket's bball.

[DaDakota]

Which of these players would you rate under Brooks?

Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Rajon Rondo
Steve Nash
Chauncey Billups
Derek Rose
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker

I think Brooks is as good as or better than:

Billups - declining rapidly
Westbrook - About even, but a much better defender than AB.
Parker - in decline - spurs looking to possibly move him

My opinion, not really going to argue it either......this thread is not for that.

DD

[justtxyank]

I have seen alot worse shooting than Lowry's. It's not like his shot is non-existent. I even recall a few 3 pointers sprinkled here and there throughout the season. :confused:

What you hope happens with Lowry is that he becomes Andre Miller. Not a 3 point shooter, but a good defender, good at setting up his teammates, good at getting to the basket.

[DaDakota]

What you hope happens with Lowry is that he becomes Andre Miller. Not a 3 point shooter, but a good defender, good at setting up his teammates, good at getting to the basket.

But Andre can do it in the half court, most of Lowry's game is predicated on getting out on the break.

He gets a lot by simply pushing the ball.....which is AWESOME as a change of pace to Brooks.

But in the playoffs when things slowed down and other teams paid attention to transition defense, Lowry struggles BIG time.

DD

[coachbadlee]

He is clearly top 10 in the entire NBA in his first year as a starter, and people want to replace him with a career backup PG who can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Backup quarterback syndrome take a bow !

DD
Lowry wouldn't have to replace what Brooks brought to the team. He just has to be able to start.

[ChumpCity]

Brooks isn't a good defender, but at least he has his speed to help him stay with guys. With Martin on them opposing PGs would just go right by him forcing the other guys on the team to shift to stop the penetration. There would be more penetration and scoring than an orgy scene in Caligula!

Speed is one thing, size is another. Speed does not help when the opposing PG is posting you up all game. I am not making a case for Martin as a PG......I think it's a retarded idea, actually.

I am just saying, don't act like AB is even mediocre on defense. He is no better or worse defensively than KMart. He is what he is......a shoot first PG with above average speed and below average defense.

Doesn't really matter if either plays defense IMO, as long as they both average 25 ppg.

[SamFisher]

Saying AB is a Top 8 PG is downright...stupid.

Nash
D-Will
CP3
Rondo
Billups
Curry
Rose
Evans
Kidd
Parker
Westbrook

He's top 8 in PER among PG's, if, by 8, you mean "24th".

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?position=pg&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fholling er%2fstatistics%3fposition%3dpg

[DaDakota]

Speed is one thing, size is another. Speed does not help when the opposing PG is posting you up all game. I am not making a case for Martin as a PG......I think it's a retarded idea, actually.
.

Thank GOD that did not happen last season and that most PGs are not post up players.

And the ones that are: Billups, Davis, Miller...anyone else? Did not really fare that well against AB.

So, at the PG spot, Speed is more important, IMO, than posting up ability.

He's top 8 in PER among PG's, if, by 8, you mean "24th".

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?position=pg&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fholling er%2fstatistics%3fposition%3dpg

Oh yeah the cursory PER argument that is based upon whom you are on the floor playing with......YAWN.

I guess according to the Backup Quarterback club that wants Lowry to start, Adelman and Morey didn't know what they were doing by starting Brooks all year.

Even though, they said at the beginning of the year that the starting job was open....too bad Brooks shut that door hard.

DD

[justtxyank]

Speed is one thing, size is another. Speed does not help when the opposing PG is posting you up all game. I am not making a case for Martin as a PG......I think it's a retarded idea, actually.

I am just saying, don't act like AB is even mediocre on defense. He is no better or worse defensively than KMart. He is what he is......a shoot first PG with above average speed and below average defense.

Doesn't really matter if either plays defense IMO, as long as they both average 25 ppg.

Look, I agree that Brooks is a bad DEFENSIVE PG. But most of the PGs in the NBA have no post up game to speak of. Having the speed to at least keep up with the other team's PG is a must if you can't do anything else on defense. Brooks is very limited on defense, so this is not a credit to him. However, Martin wouldn't have ANY skill on defense as a PG. If Brooks is a 4 on a scale of 1-10, Martin would be a 0. Worse though would be that it would be an automatic that opposing PGs would drive by him into Yao all game long. His length wouldn't be able to make up for his brutal speed difference. I'd rather Brooks get posted up than force Yao to defend an opposing PG as much as Martin at the 1 would require.

Edit: meant to say Brooks was bad defensive PG, not a bad PG

[ansfjs73]

Look, I think he is top 8, I was trying to give you a little lattitude in your argument.

If you are going to be an asshole about it, then fine.

Yes, he is top 8....Yes, Lowry is a career backup who is not top 30....

Yes it would be an IDIOTIC thing to replace a top 8 PG with a below 30 one who can't shoot the basketball.

Hey, maybe we can get Doug Gotleib to lace them back up, he is better at setting teamates up than Lowry and can't shoot it either.

DD


One thing I don't understand is why some folks on this board thinks Brooks is easily replaceable .
It is not easy to replace a guy who averaged 20 points a game. He averaged close to 20 points while staying within the offense. He is our best 1On1 guy who still may take the last shot even if Bosh and Yao are on this team . He is just one notch below DW and CP3.

Adding Bosh and removing Books may slightly improve the team a bit, but without Brooks this team wont be a Championship contender.

[justtxyank]

One thing I don't understand is why some folks on this board thinks Brooks is easily replaceable .
It is not easy to replace a guy who averaged 20 points a game. He averaged close to 20 points while staying within the offense. He is our best 1On1 guy who still may take the last shot even if Bosh and Yao are on this team . He is just one notch below DW and CP3.

Adding Bosh and removing Books may slightly improve the team a bit, but without Brooks this team wont be a Championship contender.

One notch below Deron WIlliams and Chris Paul? That's a pretty big notch!

[DaDakota]

One thing I don't understand is why some folks on this board thinks Brooks is easily replaceable .
It is not easy to replace a guy who averaged 20 points a game. He averaged close to 20 points while staying within the offense. He is our best 1On1 guy who still may take the last shot even if Bosh and Yao are on this team . He is just one notch below DW and CP3.

Adding Bosh and removing Books may slightly improve the team a bit, but without Brooks this team wont be a Championship contender.


The only thing I can think is that they don't understand how important being a threat to score the ball is...at every position on the floor.

And maybe they forgot what Rafer Alston looked like out there, as teams didn't bother even guarding him....

Say hello to the Kyle Lowry as a starter defense.

DD

[justtxyank]

The only thing I can think is that they don't understand how important being a threat to score the ball is...at every position on the floor.

And maybe they forgot what Rafer Alston looked like out there, as teams didn't bother even guarding him....

Say hello to the Kyle Lowry as a starter defense.

DD

Dude, Lowry is not Rafer Alston. Teams didn't guard Alston because he couldn't shoot the three well AND because his driving into the paint was worthless as well.

[SamFisher]

Oh yeah the cursory PER argument that is based upon whom you are on the floor playing with......YAWN.

I guess according to the Backup Quarterback club that wants Lowry to start, Adelman and Morey didn't know what they were doing by starting Brooks all year.

Even though, they said at the beginning of the year that the starting job was open....too bad Brooks shut that door hard.

DD

It's actually not based on that at all. It's based on efficiency which is defined as productivity per unit of time. THe fact is that Brooks has to play lots of minutes and dominate the ball (hence is very high usage rate) in order to get his 20 ppg, and isn't very good at setting up his teammates puts him distincly at a disadvantage in that category vs. the elite point guards, who literally blow hiim away in things like true shooting percentage and assisting.

It doesn't really ahve much to do with teammates, which is why guys like Tyreke Evans, Luke Ridnour, and Lou WIlliams are all able to play on bad teams yet are able to easily surpass Brooks in PER.

It would help if you could speak knowledgeably about the subject before posting. But you won't or can't, so you don't.

[DarylMoney]

One thing I don't understand is why some folks on this board thinks Brooks is easily replaceable .
It is not easy to replace a guy who averaged 20 points a game. He averaged close to 20 points while staying within the offense. He is our best 1On1 guy who still may take the last shot even if Bosh and Yao are on this team . He is just one notch below DW and CP3.

Adding Bosh and removing Books may slightly improve the team a bit, but without Brooks this team wont be a Championship contender.

Saying Brooks is just one notch below CP3 and DWill is foolish.

[DaDakota]

Dude, Lowry is not Rafer Alston. Teams didn't guard Alston because he couldn't shoot the three well AND because his driving into the paint was worthless as well.

Dude, they won't guard Kyle Lowry and will pack the paint when he is on the floor too.

I am sorry, IMO, he is not a good enough shooter to be a starter right now.

DD

[DarylMoney]

It's actually not based on that at all. It's based on efficiency which is defined as productivity per unit of time. THe fact is that Brooks has to play lots of minutes and dominate the ball (hence is very high usage rate) in order to get his 20 ppg, and isn't very good at setting up his teammates puts him distincly at a disadvantage in that category vs. the elite point guards, who literally blow hiim away in things like true shooting percentage and assisting.

It doesn't really ahve much to do with teammates, which is why guys like Tyreke Evans, Luke Ridnour, and Lou WIlliams are all able to play on bad teams yet are able to easily surpass Brooks in PER.

It would help if you could speak knowledgeably about the subject before posting. But you won't or can't, so you don't.


Would Rep if I could....

[justtxyank]

Dude, they won't guard Kyle Lowry and will pack the paint when he is on the floor too.

I am sorry, IMO, he is not a good enough shooter to be a starter right now.

DD

Good, on a team with Bosh Martin and Yao, let them pack the paint to stop Lowry from driving to the net.

Edit: Lowry is also adept at drawing a foul. If they want to focus on keeping Lowry out of the paint, that would be awesome. Battier and Martin can camp outside and Bosh can hang at 15 feet. I dare them to pack the paint.

[DaDakota]

It's actually not based on that at all. It's based on efficiency which is defined as productivity per unit of time. THe fact is that Brooks has to play lots of minutes and dominate the ball (hence is very high usage rate) in order to get his 20 ppg, and isn't very good at setting up his teammates puts him distincly at a disadvantage in that category vs. the elite point guards, who literally blow hiim away in things like true shooting percentage and assisting.


Wait, so you are saying that the quality of the teamates that a PG plays with and their ability to finish the ball don't matter?

So assists do not matter in the PER tabulation?

mmmmmkayy.....

DD

[DaDakota]

Good, on a team with Bosh Martin and Yao, let them pack the paint to stop Lowry from driving to the net.


You can't DRIVE when they have all these 6'9" guys guarding the rim....

Sorry, Lowry has to learn to shoot the ball from the outside to ever be an effective starter.

DD

[justtxyank]

You can't DRIVE when they have all these 6'9" guys guarding the rim....

Sorry, Lowry has to learn to shoot the ball from the outside to ever be an effective starter.

DD

Yes you can. They will either foul him or he can give the ball to one of the other players that they are too stupid to guard in order to pack the paint to prevent Lowry from driving. LOL

[ansfjs73]

Saying Brooks is just one notch below CP3 and DWill is foolish.


Don't agree with you Einstein.

[DaDakota]

Yes you can. They will either foul him or he can give the ball to one of the other players that they are too stupid to guard in order to pack the paint to prevent Lowry from driving. LOL

You guys overate Lowry, he was a backup at Memphis and a backup in Houston.

He is not an NBA starter, he might be somewhere else, but here in Houston, he is just not good enough.

DD

[justtxyank]

You guys overate Lowry, he was a backup at Memphis and a backup in Houston.

He is not an NBA starter, he might be somewhere else, but here in Houston, he is just not good enough.

DD

I understand this is your opinion. I also don't know that he is starter quality. I will say that if Morey makes a move thinking Lowry can handle the job that I trust him.

[J.R.]

You guys overate Lowry, he was a backup at Memphis and a backup in Houston.

He is not an NBA starter, he might be somewhere else, but here in Houston, he is just not good enough.

DD

LOL Don't talk about overrating players. You hype up Budinger and Brooks like nothing else matters. Sure they're nice players but not untouchable or deal breakers as you suggest.

[DaDakota]

I understand this is your opinion. I also don't know that he is starter quality. I will say that if Morey makes a move thinking Lowry can handle the job that I trust him.

I believe in Morey, but if he makes that move it will be a mistake.

LOL Don't talk about overrating players. You hype up Budinger and Brooks like nothing else matters. Sure they're nice players but not untouchable or deal breakers as you suggest.

Ugh, it is not about them per se, but how they fit in on the team overall. If we get better players that bring their skillsets then fine, trade em....

Do you understand that is my point?

DD

[Vrazz]

If Brooks goes...Don't be surprised if K-Mart gets the nod.

That's all I'm saying.

Brooks defense = K-Marts defense

[justtxyank]

I believe in Morey, but if he makes that move it will be a mistake.

DD

Then you don't have faith in him.

[DarylMoney]

Don't agree with you Einstein.


"Junst one notch" below DWill and CP are PGs like Rondo, Rose, Nash, etc.

Not AB

[justtxyank]

If Brooks goes...Don't be surprised if K-Mart gets the nod.

That's all I'm saying.

Brooks defense = K-Marts defense

I know what you are saying, but you are crazy. :)

[rocketsmetalspd]

You guys overate Lowry, he was a backup at Memphis and a backup in Houston.

He is not an NBA starter, he might be somewhere else, but here in Houston, he is just not good enough.

DD

Exactly why the Rockets should not include Brooks in the snt for Bosh. I rather give the the Raptors expiring contracts like JJ, Battier or if that does not work JJ Ariza Taylor plus a first round pick.

[DaDakota]

Then you don't have faith in him.

I think he has a good track record so far, but not all his moves have been hits......

No one is perfect.......and until he brings a championship, of course his moves will be analyzed and looked at.

His career as a GM is off to a rocking start, but the next hurdle, getting a team to a championship level is the hardest step.

Mark Cuban screwed it up by letting Nash go over a measly 5 million bucks.

Knowing the balance of when to trade versus when to hold assets is a big issue.

If Morey is simply a horse trader, then ultimatly I believe we will fail because you are constantly looking for the next shiny object, if however he is someone that values his developing players and tweaks with key trades later, then I believe we will be better off.

Personally, I think Daryl is more of the latter, so I have faith, time will tell whether that faith is rewarded.

DD

[coachbadlee]

He can scream it, he is just not looking at the whole picture.

Because it only makes the team incrementally better, they already have a very good PF playing now.

And a good number of us, look at how it effects the whole team and are not just drooling over getting Chris Bosh.

Because ultimatly it is the TEAM that needs to get better, not just one position.

Getting stronger at PF is good.

Getting a lot weaker at PG is bad...

Get it? Got it? Good.

DD
I too am not that excited about Bosh.

[wireonfire]

Reading this thread will cause your basketball IQ to drop 50 points.

Brooks started for one year, and had to carry the team on his shoulders...averaged nearly 20ppg, 5+ assists, and made the most 3pt shots of ANYONE in the NBA, so much so, that he won the Most improved player award again, for the entire league.

He will only get better, and I seriously DOUBT Morey would give him up for Bosh, no need to do that..he can get him with less.

Toronto has NO leverage here, if Bosh wants to come to Houston, they have to take what Houston offers...

And frankly offering Brooks would be STUPID !!!!

DD

DD, I respect you for your love for the Rockets but not your judgement.

[DaDakota]

DD, I respect you for your love for the Rockets but not your judgement.

I can understand that, not everyone is going to agree on everything.......I am right sometimes and wrong sometimes just like everyone else.

;)

DD

[coachbadlee]

I can understand that, not everyone is going to agree on everything.......I am right sometimes and wrong sometimes just like everyone else.

;)

DD
You're right sometimes?? :grin:

[DaDakota]

You're right sometimes?? :grin:

Heh, yeah, but shockingly people don't bring those posts up.

;)

I am batting about 90%, but with 66,000 posts, that leaves a good sized trail of blood.....lol

DD

[anchel]

Honestly, I don't care if Brooks is a top-8 or a top-30 PG, what matters is the relation between what he can give us and what we need.

Right now, Brooks' worth for this team lies in his ability to create shots, either for him or for the rest. Certainly, he has developed over the last season an ability to finish games, he is able to score in multiple ways and situations. In traffic, 1on1, off the p&r... He has unlimited range, breaks down the defenses and can finish with both hands, floaters... Has developed a very effective drop step in the mid distance, has the talent to improvise the appropiated shot at any circumstance to end up making the basket...

That said, if Houston does bring another all-star, a Chris Bosh, Brooks would become very much expendable. Having Yao + Bosh, that's more than enough talent to create a shot at critical situations, you don't need that much Aaron's abilities with them on the court, they are better than him in what he's better. Besides, if we leave aside the main virtue of Brooks, he can't help us in many other ways...:

- He's a mediocre defender, with notorious limitations.
- He's not a good passer.
- He's a bad decision maker (being a PG).
- He's not safe with the ball in his hands.
- He fails at providing extras such us: rebounding at the PG position, hustle, steals, on-the-ball / off-the-ball defense, leadership, ability to defend SGs, basket IQ, craftiness, experience, collective size/strength...

Basically Brooks is a SCORER with an important skill to unbalance the defenses and create some shots. But with 2 players who are ELITE at this, his virtues come off redundant and would make much more sense the presence in the lineup of a player who can give you at least some of the points mentioned in the list. Kyle has other limitations and surely was the worst fit for what we needed last year (talent and scoring ability, desperately) but fits better in the 2010-11 situation.

P.S.: And Fisher is not a scoring PG.

[DaDakota]

Yeah, who needs room to operate on the low post? I mean who needs a PG that can stretch defenses by hitting a 3pt shot.

Oh wait....uh..we do.

P.S.: And Fisher is not a scoring PG.

We don't have Kobe (and Bosh is no Kobe) and Fisher is a threat to score from deep.

DD

[anchel]

We don't have Kobe (and Bosh is no Kobe) and Fisher is a threat to score from deep.

DD

I mean, sometimes you name Fisher as a "you can win a chpship with an scoring PG" example. He is more important for them in many other ways.


Yeah, who needs room to operate on the low post? I mean who needs a PG that can stretch defenses by hitting a 3pt shot.

Oh wait....uh..we do.

You are right in this, with these players is highly desirable that your PG is able to score from deep. I'm hoping an improvement by Kyle in this sense (never will be the threat Aaron is but could be a 31-35% shooter), but anyway this is why I wanted Jarrett Jack included in the hypothetical trade.

[choujie]

For anyone who doesnt think Lowry is a legit point guard in the nba, they dont know much about the game of basketball. Just because Lowry cant shoot long 3's and make jump shots as consistent as Brooks does not make him a bad player. Some people only judge players by the shots they make. While other people judge players by how they help the team and make the team better. Lowry is a leader, a general, he draws charges, can draw a foul on offense and get to the free throw line, plays excellent defense, goes up for rebounds like the rockets win the game with each rebound he gets, is one of the better passing point guards in the league, and plays every play like his last (like scola). Brooks may be better at scoring than Lowry, but Lowry is better in almost every phase of the game that does not include scoring. Dont get me wrong, I like Brooks, but people who think Lowry isnt legit, need to gain some knowledge about the game of basketball.

Lastly, I will say this.... I would much rather Lowry have the ball in his hands with 20 seconds on the game clock compared with Brooks. Brooks is a turnover machine during the last possession.

This.

If Rockets can get Bosh, there is no need for a scoring PG with Yao/Bosh/Martin/Ariza on the court. A PG who can get those guys better shots and play good defense is much better for the team.

[DaDakota]

This.

If Rockets can get Bosh, there is no need for a scoring PG with Yao/Bosh/Martin/Ariza on the court. A PG who can get those guys better shots and play good defense is much better for the team.

Wrong, when defenses pack the paint and dare KL to shoot the ball you will see the error of your ways.

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

If Brooks goes in a trade for Bosh or Amare, Morey will be able to find a guy to replace him through free agency or trade.

I'm not sure Lowry can start yet, but he is close.

[SamFisher]

Wait, so you are saying that the quality of the teamates that a PG plays with and their ability to finish the ball don't matter?

So assists do not matter in the PER tabulation?

mmmmmkayy.....

DD

Assists matter - so I'm asking you this:

how do you explain the fact that guys who play on far more offensively challenged teams than the Rockets still manage to absolutely crush Brooks in this category?

I mean Devin Harris posts a far higher assist % which makes his PER superior to Brooks. Yet Harris plays on a far worse offensive team on a productivity basis. In fact he played on teh worst offense in the league per minute last year. 30th out of 30 teams (the Rockets were 16).

How do you explain that?

What about Baron Davis? He murders Brooks in assist %. While playing for the 27th best offensive team

Hell - freaking GILBERT Freaking ARENAS was more efficient at getting assists than Brooks last year. While playing on a horrific offensive team. And while being Gilbert Arenas. Yes that Gilbert Arenas.

Your excuse is horsesh-t.

[choujie]

Wrong, when defenses pack the paint and dare KL to shoot the ball you will see the error of your ways.

DD

There is Martin, and Ariza can shoot 3s decently without creating for himself.

Lowry just need to find those guys in the right spot.

[SamFisher]

Furhermore, let me add that I like how DD is still operating under the misconception (if he were brighter I would call it a lie but we'll chalk it up to ignorance in this instance) that Bosh is an inside-the-paint, underneath player who teams will "pack the paint" for.

If he actually knew a damn thing about Bosh and his game he'd realize that a huge proportion of his offense (possibly even the majority, thoguh I can't recall the stat) actually comes not from underneath or "in the paint" but from the 15-16 foot elbow range, where he is a deadly jumpshooter. And not just a guy who hits the occasional one, but who consistently takes his points from there - he is a classic high post player.

So, what will happen when teams pack the paint on Bosh? He'll step out and shoot over them. Like he has been doing for his whole career.

[coachbadlee]

Assists matter - so I'm asking you this:

how do you explain the fact that guys who play on far more offensively challenged teams than the Rockets still manage to absolutely crush Brooks in this category?

I mean Devin Harris posts a far higher assist % which makes his PER superior to Brooks. Yet Harris plays on a far worse offensive team on a productivity basis. In fact he played on teh worst offense in the league per minute last year. 30th out of 30 teams (the Rockets were 16).

How do you explain that?

What about Baron Davis? He murders Brooks in assist %. While playing for the 27th best offensive team

Hell - freaking GILBERT Freaking ARENAS was more efficient at getting assists than Brooks last year. While playing on a horrific offensive team. And while being Gilbert Arenas. Yes that Gilbert Arenas.

Your excuse is horsesh-t.
How dare you speak to DD that way, even though he is arguing for the sake of argument. :grin:

[justtxyank]

Furhermore, let me add that I like how DD is still operating under the misconception (if he were brighter I would call it a lie but we'll chalk it up to ignorance in this instance) that Bosh is an inside-the-paint, underneath player who teams will "pack the paint" for.

If he actually knew a damn thing about Bosh and his game he'd realize that a huge proportion of his offense (possibly even the majority, thoguh I can't recall the stat) actually comes not from underneath or "in the paint" but from the 15-16 foot elbow range, where he is a deadly jumpshooter. And not just a guy who hits the occasional one, but who consistently takes his points from there - he is a classic high post player.

So, what will happen when teams pack the paint on Bosh? He'll step out and shoot over them. Like he has been doing for his whole career.

Like I said, if teams want to pack the paint to nullify Lowry's ability to get to the basket, the Rockets already won.

[DaDakota]

Assists matter - so I'm asking you this:

how do you explain the fact that guys who play on far more offensively challenged teams than the Rockets still manage to absolutely crush Brooks in this category?

I mean Devin Harris posts a far higher assist % which makes his PER superior to Brooks. Yet Harris plays on a far worse offensive team on a productivity basis. In fact he played on teh worst offense in the league per minute last year. 30th out of 30 teams (the Rockets were 16).

How do you explain that?

What about Baron Davis? He murders Brooks in assist %. While playing for the 27th best offensive team

Hell - freaking GILBERT Freaking ARENAS was more efficient at getting assists than Brooks last year. While playing on a horrific offensive team. And while being Gilbert Arenas. Yes that Gilbert Arenas.

Your excuse is horsesh-t.

I say that PER is a flawed system that overvalues assists to 3pt shots.

Your logic is horsesh-t.

And Sam....packing the paint refers to Yao, Bosh can shoot out to 3pt range, I know..but he does not create his own shot.

Carry on...Samwise.

DD

[durvasa]

Your logic is horsesh-t.

DD

Please don't curse. Young children may be reading.

[Mr. Clutch]

Furhermore, let me add that I like how DD is still operating under the misconception (if he were brighter I would call it a lie but we'll chalk it up to ignorance in this instance) that Bosh is an inside-the-paint, underneath player who teams will "pack the paint" for.

If he actually knew a damn thing about Bosh and his game he'd realize that a huge proportion of his offense (possibly even the majority, thoguh I can't recall the stat) actually comes not from underneath or "in the paint" but from the 15-16 foot elbow range, where he is a deadly jumpshooter. And not just a guy who hits the occasional one, but who consistently takes his points from there - he is a classic high post player.

So, what will happen when teams pack the paint on Bosh? He'll step out and shoot over them. Like he has been doing for his whole career.

According to Hollinger, Bosh took only 39.7% of his shots in 2008-09 in the immediate basket area, the rest were farther outside. And he made 48.2% of his long 2 pointers.

[DaDakota]

Please don't curse. Young children may be reading.

Mine are blocked...so take care of your own.

DD

[justtxyank]

Please don't curse. Young children may be reading.

And then the board might get shut down!

[DaDakota]

OK, Sam.

Is your suggestion to replace Brooks with Lowry?

Because he rates lower than Brooks on your beloved PER ratings.....a lot lower.

Again, robbing Peter to pay Paul.

We get incrementally better at PF and much worse at PG.

****ING BRILLIANT !

DD

[justtxyank]

Mine are blocked...so take care of your own.

DD

So you don't think you should be as considerate of other people's children as you expected them to be of yours?

It appears [your] hypocrisy knows no bounds.

http://onedamnearp.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/holliday.gif

[Mr. Clutch]

I say that PER is a flawed system that overvalues assists to 3pt shots.

Your logic is horsesh-t.

And Sam....packing the paint refers to Yao, Bosh can shoot out to 3pt range, I know..but he does not create his own shot.

Carry on...Samwise.

DD

Bosh does create his own shot. Don't be silly.

Also, Sam referred to assist %.

[DaDakota]

So you don't think you should be as considerate of other people's children as you expected them to be of yours?

It appears [your] hypocrisy knows no bounds.

http://onedamnearp.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/holliday.gif

I will be your huckleberry !

DD

[coachbadlee]

Whoohooa!! This is getting good. OK, my turn....horsesht!!!! :grin:

[DarylMoney]

Wrong, when defenses pack the paint and dare KL to shoot the ball you will see the error of your ways.

DD


1- This won't work (See Rondo, Rajon and Rose, Derrick)

2- Wouldn't it be defensive three seconds if the opposing PG packed the PAINT

3 - Having 2 legit shooters at the 2 and 3 would certainly unpack the paint

[wnes]

Please don't curse. Young children may be reading.

To be fair, sammy did it first.

On the topic, though, dakota, consider you got owned.

[slpntz]

Chris Paul :cool:

[DaDakota]

1- This won't work (See Rondo, Rajon and Rose, Derrick)

Yeah, those guys are all starters because they are better than Lowry, who BTW could not beat out Mike Conley on Memphis.....

2- Wouldn't it be defensive three seconds if the opposing PG packed the PAINT

Nope, they can move in and out of the edges of the lane to avoid this....

3 - Having 2 legit shooters at the 2 and 3 would certainly unpack the paint

Nope, but having 4 3pt shooters would.

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

OK, Sam.

Is your suggestion to replace Brooks with Lowry?

Because he rates lower than Brooks on your beloved PER ratings.....a lot lower.

Again, robbing Peter to pay Paul.

We get incrementally better at PF and much worse at PG.

****ING BRILLIANT !

DD

Actually, Brooks had a 16.0 PER and Lowry had a 15.5 PER. And Lowry plays much better D and has a higher assist%.

But NO, I would not start Lowry over Brooks. Brooks is better. But if it takes trading Brooks to get Bosh, then we do it and find another PG through trade or free agency.

[DaDakota]

Actually, Brooks had a 16.0 PER and Lowry had a 15.5 PER. And Lowry plays much better D and has a higher assist%.

But NO, I would not start Lowry over Brooks. Brooks is better. But if it takes trading Brooks to get Bosh, then we do it and find another PG through trade or free agency.

Look, I am not saying Brooks is the best....I am saying you getting Bosh at the expense of the PG position is treading water.

So, if you trade Brooks you danged well better have a better PG than Lowry to replace him with....

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

Yeah, those guys are all starters because they are better than Lowry, who BTW could not beat out Mike Conley on Memphis.....



Even if they are better, they can't shoot 3. So how do they stop other teams from packing the paint?

[SamFisher]

I say that PER is a flawed system that overvalues assists to 3pt shots.


based on what? Based on the fact that it makes you look silly? Or do you have a spreadsheet I can look at? Let me guess.

...
And Sam....packing the paint refers to Yao, Bosh can shoot out to 3pt range, I know..but he does not create his own shot.


That's odd, because when you say things like:


I like Bosh and 25 and 11 are huge numbers, but this is a perimeter oriented league, to me most of the franchise players are on the wing, or at the point.

Not in the paint anymore.

it's very hard to not come to that conclusion.

So anyway, teams are going to pack both the low post and the high post, and then kyle lowry will have to shoot 26 foot jumpers? Are they going to be allowed to have 6 defenders at once in order to simultaneously double everybody?

[durvasa]

We get incrementally better at PF and much worse at PG.

BRILLIANT !

DD

The Rockets get significantly better at PF with Bosh. At PG, shooting is down, but the Martin acquisition from last year helps make up for that. And Lowry is a better defender, also a plus when pairing along with Martin. What I'd be more worried about is durability. Lowry's and Martin's style of play both make them susceptible to injury, while Brooks has been extremely durable.

[justtxyank]

Nope, but having 4 3pt shooters would.

DD

You think we need 4 three point shooters on the floor to keep the paint unpacked?

How have any teams survived?

[Mr. Clutch]

Look, I am not saying Brooks is the best....I am saying you getting Bosh at the expense of the PG position is treading water.

So, if you trade Brooks you danged well better have a better PG than Lowry to replace him with....

DD

Bosh is a borderline superstar. We get MUCH better by adding Bosh. Yes, we do get worse by losing Brooks, but not by comparatively the same amount. Bosh is a max player, Brooks is not.

If it comes down to Brooks plus picks for Bosh, I guarantee Morey will pull the trigger. Then we trade for a PG who can shoot.

[choujie]

OK, Sam.

Is your suggestion to replace Brooks with Lowry?

Because he rates lower than Brooks on your beloved PER ratings.....a lot lower.

Again, robbing Peter to pay Paul.

We get incrementally better at PF and much worse at PG.

****ING BRILLIANT !

DD

I don't know how you can 15.5 A LOT lower than 16.0. And Per is offensive oreinted as everybody know.

If there is a defensive PER rating, Lowry would be way higher.

Everybody can see Brooks as a better scorer than Lowry, but Lowry more than enough make up for that with his defense and overall floor game.

[SamFisher]

OK, Sam.

Is your suggestion to replace Brooks with Lowry?

Because he rates lower than Brooks on your beloved PER ratings.....a lot lower.

Again, robbing Peter to pay Paul.

We get incrementally better at PF and much worse at PG.

****ING BRILLIANT !

DD

A lot lower? Useless scrub Lowry, among PG's, is 26th or 27th, and Brooks the All-star franchise alpha dog, top 8 PG is 24th. Please tell me what kind of curve you are grading on - thx in advance.

[NBAlover]

And frankly offering Brooks would be STUPID !!!!

DD

if we are getting Bosh, frankly we probably have to give up Brooks. just like other people said, the only advantage Brooks can offer is his score, but with Yao, Bosh and Martin, we need Lowry more than Brooks.

[REEKO_HTOWN]

A lot lower? Useless scrub Lowry, among PG's, is 26th or 27th, and Brooks the All-star franchise alpha dog, top 8 PG is 24th. Please tell me what kind of curve you are grading on - thx in advance.

What are you talking about?

Haven't you seen the Budinger, Kobe rookie comparison?

sarcasm/

[choujie]

if we are getting Bosh, frankly we probably have to give up Brooks. just like other people said, the only advantage Brooks can offer is his score, but with Yao, Bosh and Martin, we need Lowry more than Brooks.

Even with Yao/Scola/Ariza/Martin, Lowry could be a better fit. with Bosh? No brainer.

[DaDakota]

What are you talking about?

Haven't you seen the Budinger, Kobe rookie comparison?

sarcasm/


It is /sarcasm Genius.

Sorry, all you Bosh lovers........you would trade Brooks for him, I would not.

I guess we shall see what happens......and if Bosh even thinks of coming here what Morey would give up to get him.

I would not.....

DD

[redao]

Even if they are better, they can't shoot 3. So how do they stop other teams from packing the paint?

1. run ahead of the packing.
2. roam around the pack, find any leaking through.
3. run into the pack and flop.
4. get into the paint to grab rebounds.
5. give up the ball to teammates and watch.
6. taken out of the game, back to bench.

[Mr. Clutch]

It is /sarcasm Genius.

Sorry, all you Bosh lovers........you would trade Brooks for him, I would not.

I guess we shall see what happens......and if Bosh even thinks of coming here what Morey would give up to get him.

I would not.....

DD

You wouldn't trade Brooks straight up for Bosh?

[DarylMoney]

You think we need 4 three point shooters on the floor to keep the paint unpacked?

How have any teams survived?


DD is simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Mr. Clutch]

1. run ahead of the packing.
2. roam around the pack, find any leaking through.
3. run into the pack and flop.
4. get into the paint to grab rebounds.
5. give up the ball to teammates and watch.
6. taken out of the game, back to bench.

Are you describing Lowry or Rondo?

[steddinotayto]

I love this board.

"We have a chance to get an All-Star power forward?!? Sign me up!"
"Okay but you will have to part with Aaron Brooks--"
"Now waitagoshdarnminutehere!"

[wnes]

I don't know how you can 15.5 A LOT lower than 16.0. And Per is offensive oreinted as everybody know.

If there is a defensive PER rating, Lowry would be way higher.

Everybody can see Brooks as a better scorer than Lowry, but Lowry more than enough make up for that with his defense and overall floor game.

A better scorer isn't necessarily a better offensive player. According to basketball-reference.com, Lowry is rated better than Brooks both offensively and defensively in the 2009-10 season. Brooks had better scoring stats simply because he was given the green light to shoot at will and played more minutes, but that contributed to much less team success (win-shares) on a per-minute basis when compared to Lowry.

[DaDakota]

DD is simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

No, I am arguing that trading Brooks is too much for Bosh, and there is no need to include him.

One 20ppg scorer for another......and it makes us weaker at a more important position.

PG is more important than PF......

It is a perimeter oriented league.....

Look it doesn't matter, Bosh has not even said he was interested in Houston yet....so, whatever.

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

No, I am arguing that trading Brooks is too much for Bosh, and there is no need to include him.

One 20ppg scorer for another......and it makes us weaker at a more important position.

PG is more important than PF......

It is a perimeter oriented league.....

Look it doesn't matter, Bosh has not even said he was interested in Houston yet....so, whatever.

DD

The team that won the NBA championship had a stud at PF and a scrub at PG.

[DaDakota]

The team that won the NBA championship had a stud at PF and a scrub at PG.

They also had Kobe Bryant.....the lead dog, who was a perimeter ORIENTED player.

How did that stud Gasol do when he was the lead dog again?

Exactly.

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

They also had Kobe Bryant.....the lead dog, who was a perimeter ORIENTED player.

How did that stud Gasol do when he was the lead dog again?

Exactly.

DD

Kobe doesn't play PG...even without Brooks, we still have Bud and Martin on the perimeter.

And how did Kobe do when he didn't have Shaq or Gasol?

Exactly.

[DaDakota]

How did Kobe do when he didn't have Shaq or Gasol?

Exactly.

Clearly he needs good players around him, who doesn't...that is my point, by trading Brooks and getting Bosh you are recreating the same scenario.

TREADING WATER !!!

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

Clearly he needs good players around him, who doesn't...that is my point, by trading Brooks and getting Bosh you are recreating the same scenario.

TREADING WATER !!!

DD

No, we are getting better because Bosh>>>>Brooks.

[choujie]

A better scorer isn't necessarily a better offensive player. According basketball-reference.com, Lowry is rated better than Brooks both offensively and defensively in the 2009-10 season. Brooks had better scoring stats simply because he was given the green light to shooting at will and played more minutes, but that contributed to much less team success (win-shares) on a per-minute basis when compared to Lowry.

I agree with that. I wat just giving DD some leverage here.

Believe it or not, Lowry's TS% isn't far off from AB's, despite shooting is the biggest advantage AB has on Lowry.

DD is just obssessed with certain players as long as they can shoot. AB over Bosh, Wafer over Artest, etc.

[DaDakota]

No, we are getting better because Bosh>>>>Brooks.

Yes he is...but then our PG position is weaker....

Man...that is the point...we have solid player EVERYWHERE, use one of the redundant pieces to get Bosh.....

Don't rob Peter to pay Paul...then you have the same scenario we are talking about .....


DD is just obssessed with certain players as long as they can shoot. AB over Bosh, Wafer over Artest, etc.

Stupid post is stupid.

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

Yes he is...but then our PG position is weaker....

Man...that is the point...we have solid player EVERYWHERE, use one of the redundant pieces to get Bosh.....

Don't rob Peter to pay Paul...then you have the same scenario we are talking about .....

DD

You trade Brooks for Bosh, then you make more moves to balance the team. When a guy like Bosh is available, you GO FOR IT.

[DaDakota]

You trade Brooks for Bosh, then you make more moves to balance the team. When a guy like Bosh is available, you GO FOR IT.

Agreed...we just don't agree on the price.

DD

[durvasa]

No, we are getting better because Bosh>>>>Brooks.

DD thinks Brooks/Scola are all-stars or borderline all-stars, and he's not going to be convinced otherwise at this stage. So it makes total sense that he'd be against a trade for Bosh that involves also giving up Brooks.

[Mr. Clutch]

DD thinks Brooks/Scola are all-stars or borderline all-stars, and he's not going to be convinced otherwise at this stage. So it makes total sense that he'd be against a trade for Bosh that involves also giving up Brooks.

But even just Brooks straight up for Bosh?

[DaDakota]

DD thinks Brooks/Scola are all-stars or borderline all-stars, and he's not going to be convinced otherwise at this stage. So it makes total sense that he'd be against a trade for Bosh that involves also giving up Brooks.


I think Brooks is indeed an all star caliber player, I think he is a better shooting Tony Parker.

I love Scola, but if we are getting Bosh for him, I would help him pack his bags.

DD

[justtxyank]

DD thinks Brooks/Scola are all-stars or borderline all-stars, and he's not going to be convinced otherwise at this stage. So it makes total sense that he'd be against a trade for Bosh that involves also giving up Brooks.

It's more than just that. He's also not high on Bosh, seeing him only as a "marginal upgrade" over what we have.

[choujie]

Yes he is...but then our PG position is weaker....

Man...that is the point...we have solid player EVERYWHERE, use one of the redundant pieces to get Bosh.....

Don't rob Peter to pay Paul...then you have the same scenario we are talking about .....



Stupid post is stupid.

DD

We have solid player everywhere, but not solid enough to win Championship. We need elite players. Bosh will make PF position elite. Bosh/Yao will make Rockets front court better than Lakers, there biggest advantage over almost every team.

And trust Lowry, he'll make PG position solid again in no time. If Rockets get Bosh, Morey will use MLE on a PG instead of backup C, I guess. Chuck/Andersen is servicable in limited minutes.

[durvasa]

But even just Brooks straight up for Bosh?

If we already have Scola, then Bosh isn't a big upgrade. And you're giving up a star PG in Brooks for that, plus shelling out max money in he process. That's the thinking.

I think it all comes down to how much value we put on what Brooks and Scola bring. For DD and many others, they are are big-time players.

[DaDakota]

It's more than just that. He's also not high on Bosh, seeing him only as a "marginal upgrade" over what we have.

True....we have

Scola and Hill....after Landry was traded Scola averaged around 19 and 9.....

So you are getting, what 6 more points and 2 more rebounds for $10+ Million more a year....

I just don't think Bosh is that great......he is a very good star player, but not a SUPERSTAR player.

I can't stand Carmelo Anthony, but he would be the guy that I could see giving up some of our young pieces for, he is someone that you can build around more than Bosh is....IMO.

DD

[steddinotayto]

I think Brooks is indeed an all star caliber player, I think he is a better shooting Tony Parker.

I love Scola, but if we are getting Bosh for him, I would help him pack his bags.

DD

I'm sorry DD but Brooks and Tony Parker are nowhere near alike other than the fact that both are starting point guards in the NBA.

[anchel]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/nursetpd/TSB/King_James_Suitors.gif

[DaDakota]

I'm sorry DD but Brooks and Tony Parker are nowhere near alike other than the fact that both are starting point guards in the NBA.


Tell that to Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson, they made the comparison first....

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

Tell that to Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson, they made the comparison first....

DD

Those guys won a championship with garbage at PG.

[pippendagimp]

i don't even like brooks all that much and i still would not trade him for rupaul :grin:

[DaDakota]

Those guys won a championship with garbage at PG.

Fisher is not garbage? (Man that hurts typing)....he plays good solid team ball and hits some important 3pters which (ehem) allow for spacing down low to Gasol and Bynum....and Kobe even when he posts up.

You know...Spacing....like I have been talking about all day.

DD

[choujie]

I'm sorry DD but Brooks and Tony Parker are nowhere near alike other than the fact that both are starting point guards in the NBA.

And both are fast. That's all. I don't know why DD keeps bring up Parker to make a case for AB.

[tested911]

AB's numbered are skewed only by the fact that he was option #1 on this team last season.. If we sign Bosh, have Yao back, and have KM for a whole season his numbers would come down a bit. His PER is great only because the fact he was our #1 option.

[Mr. Clutch]

Fisher is not garbage? (Man that hurts typing)....he plays good solid team ball and hits some important 3pters which (ehem) allow for spacing down low to Gasol and Bynum....and Kobe even when he posts up.

You know...Spacing....like I have been talking about all day.

DD

Fisher is replaceable. Fishers come along all the time. Bosh doesn't.

[Mr. Clutch]

And both are fast. That's all. I don't know why DD keeps bring up Parker to make a case for AB.

Agreed, Parker's PER has been much higher for most of his career.

[choujie]

Fisher is not garbage? (Man that hurts typing)....he plays good solid team ball and hits some important 3pters which (ehem) allow for spacing down low to Gasol and Bynum....and Kobe even when he posts up.

You know...Spacing....like I have been talking about all day.

DD

Lakers won Championship last year too when Fisher shooting 3s worse than Lowry.

3 point shooting is not required for a PG to win chamionships. Ask Rondo and Parker.

Rockets have Martin/Battier/Cbud/Ariza on the wing to take the shooting load.

[redao]

Those guys won a championship with garbage at PG.


seriously, stop posting this garbage.

[steddinotayto]

Agreed, Parker's PER has been much higher for most of his career.

You don't even have to compare PERs to tell that both are different players. Parker's game has been mostly inside the 3 point line throughout his career whereas Brooks' better perimeter shooting has him shooting more 3s than Parker could ever do in his lifetime.

[DaDakota]

Agreed, Parker's PER has been much higher for most of his career.

It would be interesting to see their first 3 years as a comparison study, but more than just PER, as that is skewed by whom is on the floor with them.

Not sure there is a real stat that breaks it down in a "TRUE" who is better manner.

We are all arguing semantics.

DD

[Spacemoth]

Agreed...we just don't agree on the price.

DD

I don't think anyone here is actively advocating for Brooks departure, we would definitely like to keep him if at all possible. I just think if it comes down to it, and I had to choose to keep one out of Brooks vs Scola (because you know those are the pieces that Toronto covets) then I would go with Brooks.

Both LA and Boston demonstrated that you can never have too much depth inside; it's almost like pitching in baseball now. What do you do at the trade deadline if you're a contender with great pitching and decent hitting? You go out and get more pitching that's what. In basketball now the best teams have an endless string of big men ready to fight for loose balls and pick up no-layup type message-sending fouls. They are more of a commodity.

Even at the highest end in the point guard position, Chris Paul and Deron Williams and Steve Nash are a delight to watch but they haven't won anything. They are just that--entertainers. You all saw Game 7. It was like the NCAA championships. Hand check fouls are out the window. It turns into football without the pads. It's all about who can manufacture their own shot through all the bumps and bruises.

When it comes down to it, it's not the banger like Lowry who's overrated. It's the silky smooth, dare I say use the word, "finesse" types. And don't say PER undervalues three point shooting. All statistics by their nature overvalue three point shooting by assigning it a 150% value over normal shots, when the reality is that the higher variance associated with the lower percentage of three point shots that usually goes in means that in the crunch time it becomes critically important NOT to rely on it.

What PER does overvalue is USAGE, not assists. Usage as in guys that have the ball in their hands every single time down the court, who either end up making an assist, a turnover, a missed shot, or a made shot as a result of dominating the ball. Allen Iverson. Tyreke Evans. Tracy McGrady. These are examples of players whose value was OVERrated by PER because they made sure that they would either be the last or second to last person to touch the ball before the play ended. Unfortunately, Brooks is headed down this road too. His best stat last year was his 3PT%. His worst stat was his assists/40min.

And not all is as bad as it's made out to be. In the decade or so since Hollinger debuted his PER on ESPN, I'm positive that we had never had a PG play significant minutes and get over a 15 (supposedly the number for the league average, although more players end up below this level than above, meaning that the median is lower than 15). Last year we had TWO. Two above average point guards on the same team is fantastic for us, even thoguh many teams achieve this feat with regularity and with much less heralded names (Luke Ridnour???).

Next year with diminished touches it's likely that these numbers will decline. You can say that Brooks was better than Lowry and that he was still 24th overall (which is behind a lot of bench players with smaller sample sizes that I honestly would not count), but here's what I take out of it: last year he was the MAN. He had the keys to the car. And even with all that he still only beat our backup PG, someone who had many more factors in play against him, by 0.5. And he was still only mildly above average at that. What this tells me is not that he is bad, but rather that he is overrated by the people that swear by the eyeball test.

So yes, he is good. We want to keep him. He almost shot 40% from three last year. But how much should we sacrifice to keep him? His value might not ever be higher. His points scored certainly won't next year. If he's the barrier between you and Bosh you pull the trigger. Easily.

[Rashmon]

AB's numbered are skewed only by the fact that he was option #1 on this team last season.. If we sign Bosh, have Yao back, and have KM for a whole season his numbers would come down a bit. His PER is great only because the fact he was our #1 option.

Even more concerning, is that with the return of Yao and Martin for the season, I do not want AB dominating the ball or shooting as much as he did last year.

[DaDakota]

Even more concerning, is that with the return of Yao and Martin for the season, I do not want AB dominating the ball or shooting as much as he did last year.


Look at the playoffs against Portland and the Lakers for a better view of his role, and then think about him with the ball late in the shot clock, because no one else on the team can get their own shot late...he is it.

DD

[The_Yoyo]

honestly i would trade Brooks in a heartbeart if it meant getting a Bosh or Amare as long as we keep Lowry as the replacement.


you guys truly overrate brooks (who is a good player) here. Bosh and Amare are both top 15 players in the entire LEAGUE. Bosh is top 10 and could be the best at his position along with Gasol.

Yet lets not get them because we'd have to give up a undersized scoring point guard who is at best a borderline all-star. Brooks may not even be a top 10 point guard in the west --parker, westbrook, billups, kidd, paul, williams, davis, nash I would rank over him-- and the case could be made that Tyreke Evans and Steph Curry are on par or just above him.


Brooks' greatest asset is he is a scorer from the outside, a real good one that and that would help with Yao back for sure no doubt. But coming off a season where the rockets lose basically their top 3 scoring options from the previous year (yao, artest, mcgrady) of course his scoring stats will go up. But bottom line is that IF (a big IF) either Bosh or Amare comes here with the addition of Yao, Brooks' greatest asset, his scoring, is not as needed anymore since both Yao and MAX PF will take the majority of those touches and his weaknesses, passing (and he is a PG) and defense, will become far more glaring.

Couple that with the fact that he won MIP he will look to get a big deal next offseason, one Morey most likely will not want to match if he feels he is being overpaid (even with the new CBA). The recipients of the MIP award historically have been overpaid after they have received it (Bobby Simmons, Arenas, McGrady, Jermaine O'Neal, Granger, Zach Randolph, Monta Ellis, Boris Diaw) The jury is still out on Granger and you could argue that Arenas, McGrady and O'Neal were worth their contracts at the team but all of those players were significantly more talented than Brooks is before their injuries.

The rest of the guys? overpaid


I am not saying Lowry is the sure fire replacement/man, but I value his strengths more than Brooks' strength if Yao and a MAX PF come to this team. His passing and defense and ability to draw fouls and get to the line will be huge assets. Ideally a young Derek Fisher would be perfect for this team if they get a Bosh or Amare but no one is like that out there that is attainable. Lowry is the closest to that and probably can improve his shooting. If anything has been shown in this league you can improve your shooting to go from bad to good its a lot harder to improve your passing or defense. Now Lowry will never be the shooter Brooks is but I believe he can become good enough to where they wont leave him on an island like in the 2009 series versus the lakers. I dont think Brooks will become a better passer nor does he have the physical tools to be a good defender at his size.


I feel Lowry will get a deal more along his true market worth or if anything under his value and the Rockets will lock him up. Right now Brooks' value is at an all time high..you sell high and you get back something like a Bosh or Amare.



edit: of course this is IF (a big IF again) we get either Bosh or Amare if we get neither of them I am more than happy to have the lineup we had last year with just Yao back and Brooks being the starting PG

[DaDakota]

honestly i would trade Brooks in a heartbeart if it meant getting a Bosh or Amare as long as we keep Lowry as the replacement.


you guys truly overrate brooks (who is a good player) here. Bosh and Amare are both top 15 players in the entire LEAGUE. Bosh is top 10 and could be the best at his position along with Gasol.

Yet lets not get them because we'd have to give up a undersized scoring point guard who is at best a borderline all-star. Brooks may not even be a top 10 point guard in the west --parker, westbrook, billups, kidd, paul, williams, davis, nash I would rank over him-- and the case could be made that Tyreke Evans and Steph Curry are on par or just above him.


Brooks' greatest asset is he is a scorer from the outside, a real good one that and that would help with Yao back for sure no doubt. But coming off a season where the rockets lose basically their top 3 scoring options from the previous year (yao, artest, mcgrady) of course his scoring stats will go up. But bottom line is that IF (a big IF) either Bosh or Amare comes here with the addition of Yao, Brooks' greatest asset, his scoring, is not as needed anymore since both Yao and MAX PF will take the majority of those touches and his weaknesses, passing (and he is a PG) and defense, will become far more glaring.

Couple that with the fact that he won MIP he will look to get a big deal next offseason, one Morey most likely will not want to match if he feels he is being overpaid (even with the new CBA). The recipients of the MIP award historically have been overpaid after they have received it (Bobby Simmons, Arenas, McGrady, Jermaine O'Neal, Granger, Zach Randolph, Monta Ellis, Boris Diaw) The jury is still out on Granger and you could argue that Arenas, McGrady and O'Neal were worth their contracts at the team but all of those players were significantly more talented than Brooks is before their injuries.

The rest of the guys? overpaid


I am not saying Lowry is the sure fire replacement/man, but I value his strengths more than Brooks' strength if Yao and a MAX PF come to this team. His passing and defense and ability to draw fouls and get to the line will be huge assets. Ideally a young Derek Fisher would be perfect for this team if they get a Bosh or Amare but no one is like that out there that is attainable. Lowry is the closest to that and probably can improve his shooting. If anything has been shown in this league you can improve your shooting to go from bad to good its a lot harder to improve your passing or defense. Now Lowry will never be the shooter Brooks is but I believe he can become good enough to where they wont leave him on an island like in the 2009 series versus the lakers. I dont think Brooks will become a better passer nor does he have the physical tools to be a good defender at his size.


I feel Lowry will get a deal more along his true market worth or if anything under his value and the Rockets will lock him up. Right now Brooks' value is at an all time high..you sell high and you get back something like a Bosh or Amare.


A well reasoned argument for sure, but I value Brooks a bit higher and Bosh a bit lower than you do.

But still a nice post.

I guess we all are waiting on Bosh first.....probably all of this is moot anyway.

DD

[SamFisher]

It would be interesting to see their first 3 years as a comparison study, but more than just PER, as that is skewed by whom is on the floor with them.



Really? By that token then we should see guys posting high PER's be surrounded by superstars right? Yet LeBron manages to post NBA-record PER's despite his only low-post threat being Anderson freaking Varejao.

Tracy McGrady posted one of the highest PER's in recorded history in Orlando in 2003 being one of the few guys going over 30, by playing in a starting lineup which featured the immortal Pat Garrity as the next highest minute getter.

And that's just the beginning. I could fiind literally thousands of players who played on far worse teams yet posted much player efficiency ratings than Brooks. Because it measures an individual player's efficiency, not the team. That's why the Rockets didn't lose any net team production when he went off the floor last year - something you probably couldn't say for Wilt, LeBron, Tracy etc.

Basically you are full of garbage again by talking about something you don't understand and haven't bothered to research.

It would be embarrassing but it's not.

[DaDakota]

Basically you are full of garbage again by talking about something you don't understand and haven't bothered to research.

It would be embarrassing but it's not.

Yeah, except that typically you are going by your normal garbage that everyone believes, like you do, that the PER is even meaningful.

It is ONE GUYS ATTEMPT at developing a decent analysis...and it has holes in it a mile wide.

The TMac example you just used....I mean a per over 30, LOL, how did his TEAM do, because honestly...wins and losses are all that really matter....

You know as well as I do, or you should, that statistics can be manipulated to give credence to any argument, everyone just cherry picks the ones that they like to support their argument.

Let's go beyond that, if we traded Brooks for Bosh, would the team be better than it is now with Lowry starting instead of Brooks?

Or, whom would you want the Rockets to go after to get a starting level caliber PG?

Hey, maybe you can consult the Golden Chalice of PER and get back to me...

DD

[raining threes]

They will probably trade for Rubio or Paul in a sign -n-trade

[DaDakota]

They will probably trade for Rubio or Paul in a sign -n-trade

Rubio I like a lot, but he would be better as a backup in waiting because he could go from all timer to bust, you just don't know where he falls. I personally think he will be great.

CP3, of course you trade Brooks for him...lol.......

But I do not like him much......but his talent is unquestionably better.

DD