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durvasa
02-22-2010, 05:37 PM
I saw a link to this over at the apbr metrics forums.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers/2008-05/msg02598.html

It is Wilt Chamberlain's game log for the 1961-1962 season. Just kind of fun to look at. I copied it below, in more text friendly formatting:


WILT CHAMBERLAIN?S 1961-62 GAME-BY-GAME

DATE G Min FGM FGA FG% FTM FTA FT% REB AST PF PTS
10/19/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 1 48 21 44 0.477 6 12 0.5 25 1 1 48
10/20/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 2 48 24 46 0.522 9 17 0.529 32 1 2 57
10/21/61 New York at Philadelphia 3 48 21 41 0.512 11 17 0.647 35 0 2 53
10/27/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 4 48 21 45 0.467 13 21 0.619 24 3 3 55
10/28/61 Philadelphia at Syracuse 5 48 17 43 0.395 9 14 0.643 23 3 0 43
11/03/61 Boston at Philadelphia 6 48 12 31 0.387 4 9 0.444 33 1 2 28
11/04/61 Detroit at Philadelphia 7 48 24 48 0.5 10 16 0.625 33 0 1 58
11/08/61 Philadelphia at Detroit 8 48 23 46 0.5 12 19 0.632 23 1 3 58
11/09/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 9 48 20 38 0.526 15 27 0.556 29 0 1 55
11/11/61 Philadelphia at Boston 10 48 17 40 0.425 7 13 0.538 21 3 4 41
11/14/61 Philadelphia at New York 11 48 13 27 0.481 8 17 0.471 18 2 2 34
11/15/61 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 12 48 18 42 0.429 7 13 0.538 18 5 1 43
11/17/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 13 48 24 48 0.5 8 19 0.421 32 2 1 56
11/18/61 Philadelphia at Syracuse 14 48 13 32 0.406 13 20 0.65 17 2 1 39
11/19/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 15 48 24 47 0.511 3 8 0.375 16 0 2 51
11/21/61 Philadelphia at Cincinnati 16 48 20 44 0.455 5 15 0.333 34 6 0 45
11/23/61 Boston at Philadelphia 17 48 12 34 0.353 7 12 0.583 30 5 1 31
11/25/61 Chicago at Philadelphia 18 48 15 37 0.405 9 12 0.75 38 3 2 39
11/28/61 Philadelphia at St. Louis 19 48 13 28 0.464 13 25 0.52 22 1 0 39
12/01/61 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 20 48 22 47 0.468 16 26 0.615 21 4 1 60
12/02/61 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 21 48 11 22 0.5 15 26 0.577 24 1 1 37
12/05/61 Philadelphia at New York 22 48 17 31 0.548 5 12 0.417 22 4 1 39
12/06/61 St. Louis at Philadelphia 23 48 12 27 0.444 15 20 0.75 16 1 2 39
12/08/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 24 63 31 62 0.5 16 31 0.516 43 1 4 78
12/09/61 Chicago at Philadelphia 25 48 28 48 0.583 5 10 0.5 36 0 3 61
12/10/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 26 48 23 44 0.523 9 16 0.563 26 2 4 55
12/12/61 Detroit at Philadelphia 27 48 22 42 0.524 10 14 0.714 25 5 2 54
12/13/61 Philadelphia at Boston 28 48 22 43 0.512 8 12 0.667 30 0 2 52
12/14/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 29 48 17 39 0.436 9 17 0.529 22 2 1 43
12/16/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 30 48 21 39 0.538 8 12 0.667 21 3 3 50
12/19/61 Philadelphia at Cincinnati 31 48 24 47 0.511 9 14 0.643 25 1 0 57
12/20/61 Philadelphia at Detroit 32 48 24 47 0.511 7 11 0.636 19 0 0 55
12/25/61 Philadelphia at New York 33 58 23 44 0.523 13 22 0.591 36 0 3 59
12/26/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 34 48 21 53 0.396 9 15 0.6 29 1 2 51
12/27/61 New York at Philadelphia 35 48 20 42 0.476 13 18 0.722 30 4 3 53
12/29/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 36 48 24 43 0.558 12 19 0.632 26 3 1 60
12/30/61 Boston at Philadelphia 37 53 17 34 0.5 7 13 0.538 28 3 2 41
01/01/62 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 38 48 13 29 0.448 6 12 0.5 20 3 1 32
01/03/62 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 39 40 14 25 0.56 8 12 0.667 18 2 1 36
01/05/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 40 48 20 39 0.513 13 21 0.619 22 2 0 53
01/07/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 41 48 23 41 0.561 9 17 0.529 21 2 3 55
01/09/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 42 48 18 37 0.486 11 21 0.524 27 1 3 47
01/10/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 43 48 15 40 0.375 9 13 0.692 25 1 0 39
01/11/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 44 48 19 40 0.475 14 24 0.583 22 5 0 52
01/13/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 45 48 29 48 0.604 15 25 0.6 36 0 2 73
01/14/62 Philadelphia at Boston 46 48 27 45 0.6 8 10 0.8 28 2 1 62
01/17/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 47 53 24 48 0.5 14 20 0.7 23 4 3 62
01/18/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 48 48 22 50 0.44 10 16 0.625 31 3 0 54
01/19/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 49 48 23 42 0.548 7 10 0.7 21 2 1 53
01/20/62 Detroit at Philadelphia 50 48 17 39 0.436 10 14 0.714 28 5 0 44
01/21/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 51 53 25 42 0.595 12 17 0.706 23 3 1 62
01/24/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 52 48 23 56 0.411 9 11 0.818 32 5 1 55
01/26/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 53 48 16 29 0.552 15 19 0.789 22 4 3 47
01/27/62 Boston at Philadelphia 54 48 21 28 0.75 11 17 0.647 27 1 3 53
01/28/62 Philadelphia at Boston 55 53 17 31 0.548 16 22 0.727 20 3 4 50
01/30/62 Philadelphia at New York 56 48 22 40 0.55 11 19 0.579 27 3 1 55
02/01/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 57 48 22 36 0.611 9 16 0.563 26 5 1 53
02/02/62 New York at Philadelphia 58 48 12 31 0.387 11 19 0.579 19 4 1 35
02/03/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 59 48 15 35 0.429 11 14 0.786 15 3 0 41
02/04/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 60 48 19 35 0.543 12 18 0.667 26 2 0 50
02/08/62 New York at Philadelphia 61 48 23 37 0.622 13 19 0.684 24 0 0 59
02/09/62 Philadelphia at Boston 62 48 15 32 0.469 18 23 0.783 29 1 1 48
02/10/62 Boston at Philadelphia 63 48 16 33 0.485 6 14 0.429 31 4 1 38
02/11/62 Philadelphia at New York 64 48 18 36 0.5 6 13 0.462 25 5 0 42
02/13/62 Philadelphia at Cincinnatti 65 48 24 40 0.6 17 30 0.567 22 4 3 65
02/14/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 66 48 17 38 0.447 8 13 0.615 27 3 1 42
02/16/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 67 48 18 37 0.486 12 17 0.706 23 4 0 48
02/17/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 68 48 26 44 0.591 15 20 0.75 28 2 1 67
02/20/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 69 48 21 46 0.457 6 8 0.75 21 2 4 48
02/21/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 70 48 19 33 0.576 8 17 0.471 16 2 3 46
02/22/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 71 48 21 36 0.583 19 34 0.559 26 1 0 61
02/24/62 Boston at Philadelphia 72 48 11 24 0.458 4 13 0.308 31 0 1 26
02/25/62 New York at Philadelphia 73 48 25 38 0.658 17 22 0.773 21 1 1 67
02/27/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 74 48 25 43 0.581 15 20 0.75 23 2 3 65
02/28/62 Philadelphia at Chicago 75 48 24 46 0.522 13 17 0.765 28 6 4 61
03/02/62 New York at Philadelphia 76 48 36 63 0.571 28 32 0.875 25 2 2 100
03/04/62 Philadelphia at New York 77 48 24 41 0.585 10 16 0.625 35 4 0 58
03/07/62 Philadelphia at Boston 78 48 13 38 0.433 4 11 0.364 27 2 1 30
03/11/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 79 48 19 27 0.704 6 18 0.333 26 2 2 44
03/14/62 Philadelphia at Chicago 80 53 15 34 0.441 4 5 0.8 33 4 3 34

The Drake
02-22-2010, 05:40 PM
why are there no videos of Wilt Chamberlain passing?

mfastx
02-22-2010, 05:41 PM
I saw a link to this over at the apbr metrics forums.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers/2008-05/msg02598.html

It is Wilt Chamberlain's game log for the 1961-1962 season. Just kind of fun to look at. I copied it below, in more text friendly formatting:


WILT CHAMBERLAIN?S 1961-62 GAME-BY-GAME

DATE G Min FGM FGA FG% FTM FTA FT% REB AST PF PTS
10/19/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 1 48 21 44 0.477 6 12 0.5 25 1 1 48
10/20/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 2 48 24 46 0.522 9 17 0.529 32 1 2 57
10/21/61 New York at Philadelphia 3 48 21 41 0.512 11 17 0.647 35 0 2 53
10/27/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 4 48 21 45 0.467 13 21 0.619 24 3 3 55
10/28/61 Philadelphia at Syracuse 5 48 17 43 0.395 9 14 0.643 23 3 0 43
11/03/61 Boston at Philadelphia 6 48 12 31 0.387 4 9 0.444 33 1 2 28
11/04/61 Detroit at Philadelphia 7 48 24 48 0.5 10 16 0.625 33 0 1 58
11/08/61 Philadelphia at Detroit 8 48 23 46 0.5 12 19 0.632 23 1 3 58
11/09/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 9 48 20 38 0.526 15 27 0.556 29 0 1 55
11/11/61 Philadelphia at Boston 10 48 17 40 0.425 7 13 0.538 21 3 4 41
11/14/61 Philadelphia at New York 11 48 13 27 0.481 8 17 0.471 18 2 2 34
11/15/61 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 12 48 18 42 0.429 7 13 0.538 18 5 1 43
11/17/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 13 48 24 48 0.5 8 19 0.421 32 2 1 56
11/18/61 Philadelphia at Syracuse 14 48 13 32 0.406 13 20 0.65 17 2 1 39
11/19/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 15 48 24 47 0.511 3 8 0.375 16 0 2 51
11/21/61 Philadelphia at Cincinnati 16 48 20 44 0.455 5 15 0.333 34 6 0 45
11/23/61 Boston at Philadelphia 17 48 12 34 0.353 7 12 0.583 30 5 1 31
11/25/61 Chicago at Philadelphia 18 48 15 37 0.405 9 12 0.75 38 3 2 39
11/28/61 Philadelphia at St. Louis 19 48 13 28 0.464 13 25 0.52 22 1 0 39
12/01/61 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 20 48 22 47 0.468 16 26 0.615 21 4 1 60
12/02/61 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 21 48 11 22 0.5 15 26 0.577 24 1 1 37
12/05/61 Philadelphia at New York 22 48 17 31 0.548 5 12 0.417 22 4 1 39
12/06/61 St. Louis at Philadelphia 23 48 12 27 0.444 15 20 0.75 16 1 2 39
12/08/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 24 63 31 62 0.5 16 31 0.516 43 1 4 78
12/09/61 Chicago at Philadelphia 25 48 28 48 0.583 5 10 0.5 36 0 3 61
12/10/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 26 48 23 44 0.523 9 16 0.563 26 2 4 55
12/12/61 Detroit at Philadelphia 27 48 22 42 0.524 10 14 0.714 25 5 2 54
12/13/61 Philadelphia at Boston 28 48 22 43 0.512 8 12 0.667 30 0 2 52
12/14/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 29 48 17 39 0.436 9 17 0.529 22 2 1 43
12/16/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 30 48 21 39 0.538 8 12 0.667 21 3 3 50
12/19/61 Philadelphia at Cincinnati 31 48 24 47 0.511 9 14 0.643 25 1 0 57
12/20/61 Philadelphia at Detroit 32 48 24 47 0.511 7 11 0.636 19 0 0 55
12/25/61 Philadelphia at New York 33 58 23 44 0.523 13 22 0.591 36 0 3 59
12/26/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 34 48 21 53 0.396 9 15 0.6 29 1 2 51
12/27/61 New York at Philadelphia 35 48 20 42 0.476 13 18 0.722 30 4 3 53
12/29/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 36 48 24 43 0.558 12 19 0.632 26 3 1 60
12/30/61 Boston at Philadelphia 37 53 17 34 0.5 7 13 0.538 28 3 2 41
01/01/62 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 38 48 13 29 0.448 6 12 0.5 20 3 1 32
01/03/62 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 39 40 14 25 0.56 8 12 0.667 18 2 1 36
01/05/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 40 48 20 39 0.513 13 21 0.619 22 2 0 53
01/07/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 41 48 23 41 0.561 9 17 0.529 21 2 3 55
01/09/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 42 48 18 37 0.486 11 21 0.524 27 1 3 47
01/10/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 43 48 15 40 0.375 9 13 0.692 25 1 0 39
01/11/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 44 48 19 40 0.475 14 24 0.583 22 5 0 52
01/13/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 45 48 29 48 0.604 15 25 0.6 36 0 2 73
01/14/62 Philadelphia at Boston 46 48 27 45 0.6 8 10 0.8 28 2 1 62
01/17/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 47 53 24 48 0.5 14 20 0.7 23 4 3 62
01/18/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 48 48 22 50 0.44 10 16 0.625 31 3 0 54
01/19/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 49 48 23 42 0.548 7 10 0.7 21 2 1 53
01/20/62 Detroit at Philadelphia 50 48 17 39 0.436 10 14 0.714 28 5 0 44
01/21/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 51 53 25 42 0.595 12 17 0.706 23 3 1 62
01/24/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 52 48 23 56 0.411 9 11 0.818 32 5 1 55
01/26/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 53 48 16 29 0.552 15 19 0.789 22 4 3 47
01/27/62 Boston at Philadelphia 54 48 21 28 0.75 11 17 0.647 27 1 3 53
01/28/62 Philadelphia at Boston 55 53 17 31 0.548 16 22 0.727 20 3 4 50
01/30/62 Philadelphia at New York 56 48 22 40 0.55 11 19 0.579 27 3 1 55
02/01/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 57 48 22 36 0.611 9 16 0.563 26 5 1 53
02/02/62 New York at Philadelphia 58 48 12 31 0.387 11 19 0.579 19 4 1 35
02/03/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 59 48 15 35 0.429 11 14 0.786 15 3 0 41
02/04/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 60 48 19 35 0.543 12 18 0.667 26 2 0 50
02/08/62 New York at Philadelphia 61 48 23 37 0.622 13 19 0.684 24 0 0 59
02/09/62 Philadelphia at Boston 62 48 15 32 0.469 18 23 0.783 29 1 1 48
02/10/62 Boston at Philadelphia 63 48 16 33 0.485 6 14 0.429 31 4 1 38
02/11/62 Philadelphia at New York 64 48 18 36 0.5 6 13 0.462 25 5 0 42
02/13/62 Philadelphia at Cincinnatti 65 48 24 40 0.6 17 30 0.567 22 4 3 65
02/14/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 66 48 17 38 0.447 8 13 0.615 27 3 1 42
02/16/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 67 48 18 37 0.486 12 17 0.706 23 4 0 48
02/17/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 68 48 26 44 0.591 15 20 0.75 28 2 1 67
02/20/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 69 48 21 46 0.457 6 8 0.75 21 2 4 48
02/21/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 70 48 19 33 0.576 8 17 0.471 16 2 3 46
02/22/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 71 48 21 36 0.583 19 34 0.559 26 1 0 61
02/24/62 Boston at Philadelphia 72 48 11 24 0.458 4 13 0.308 31 0 1 26
02/25/62 New York at Philadelphia 73 48 25 38 0.658 17 22 0.773 21 1 1 67
02/27/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 74 48 25 43 0.581 15 20 0.75 23 2 3 65
02/28/62 Philadelphia at Chicago 75 48 24 46 0.522 13 17 0.765 28 6 4 61
03/02/62 New York at Philadelphia 76 48 36 63 0.571 28 32 0.875 25 2 2 100
03/04/62 Philadelphia at New York 77 48 24 41 0.585 10 16 0.625 35 4 0 58
03/07/62 Philadelphia at Boston 78 48 13 38 0.433 4 11 0.364 27 2 1 30
03/11/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 79 48 19 27 0.704 6 18 0.333 26 2 2 44
03/14/62 Philadelphia at Chicago 80 53 15 34 0.441 4 5 0.8 33 4 3 34

Wow. Amazing that he played every minute of every game.

rimrocker
02-22-2010, 05:42 PM
What stands out, of course, is the 100 point game... but I really like the 78 points/43 rebounds game against LA ( he went 31 of 62... can you imagine anyone shooting 62 shots in a game today?)

ArtisGilmore
02-22-2010, 05:43 PM
Wow. Amazing that he played every minute of every game.

Not quite true, he missed 8 minutes of that season (from the game on 1/3/62) because he was ejected due to two technicals. But he averaged over 48 minutes a game that season.

durvasa
02-22-2010, 05:43 PM
That 12/08/61 game is crazy to me. He scored 78 points despite missing half his shots and half his free throws.

SmeggySmeg
02-22-2010, 05:46 PM
did they win the title in this season?

TheGreat
02-22-2010, 05:49 PM
I can tell you one thing for sure is he would not be able to average those numbers in this era of the NBA. ;)

Air Langhi
02-22-2010, 05:49 PM
Wilt is a ball stopper :)

ArtisGilmore
02-22-2010, 05:50 PM
did they win the title in this season?

No, they lost to Russell's Celtics 4-3 in the Eastern Conference Finals. This season resulted in the odd situation where Wilt was the 1st Team All-NBA center, but Russell was the MVP. I think players voted for MVP at this point, the media selected the All-NBA team.

Shroopy2
02-22-2010, 05:55 PM
Never fouled out, either....

Woulda been cool if they kept track of block shots back then

DonkeyMagic
02-22-2010, 05:58 PM
pretty incredible. I wonder what his blocks would have been

CaptainRox
02-22-2010, 05:58 PM
What stands out, of course, is the 100 point game... but I really like the 78 points/43 rebounds game against LA ( he went 31 of 62... can you imagine anyone shooting 62 shots in a game today?)

YES. Trevor Ariza.

tested911
02-22-2010, 05:59 PM
I will never call Tracy a Ball hog again LOL :grin:

Ottomaton
02-22-2010, 05:59 PM
Wow. Amazing that he played every minute of every game.

Meh... The lazy slacker only played 40 minutes on 1/3/62.

Xenon
02-22-2010, 06:09 PM
He played against opposing centers that were 4'8". Whoopty do.

plutoblue11
02-22-2010, 06:10 PM
I can tell you one thing for sure is he would not be able to average those numbers in this era of the NBA. ;)


We had this discussion in another thread, so many believe it would be impossible for Wilt to be an (even) above average player. But I can firmly say, that if Wilt in his prime came into 2010 NBA, he would easily be the best center in the league and would instantly make any team (even the Nets) into a Finals contender. He'd still lead the league in block shots, rebounding, FG%, and possibly scoring. Right now, people generally consider the Dwight Howard the best center in the league, by a mile, yet he can't do 1/10th on what Wilt could do in his twilight (Laker) years at 33-34.

Many point to Wilt's inferior competition, but name one thing Dwight Howard has over Wilt Chamberlain in actual gameplay or skills.

durvasa
02-22-2010, 06:15 PM
Many point to Wilt's inferior competition, but name one thing Dwight Howard has over Wilt Chamberlain in actual gameplay or skills.

I'd probably give him a slight edge in free throw shooting and dunking.

durvasa
02-22-2010, 06:23 PM
pretty incredible. I wonder what his blocks would have been

Considering the minutes he played and the number of shots other teams likely attempted around the basket, 8 blocks/g seems like a reasonable guess.

fallenphoenix
02-22-2010, 06:29 PM
anyone else get some amusement out of the assist column?

TheGreat
02-22-2010, 06:33 PM
He took so many shots, no way he averages over 30 points per game in todays game.

francis 4 prez
02-22-2010, 06:37 PM
if you took his worst scoring and worst rebounding performance and put them together, you still get a 26/15 game. granted, the pace of the games and the field goal percentages from that season were such that it seems every team simply ran down the floor as fast as possible and chucked up a long jumper (seemingly with their offhand), so it was easy to get points and rebounds, but still never going below 26 or 15 (if i scanned it correctly) is pretty crazy.

and i would think dwight howard could grab 25 rebounds per game if he played that season.

Ziggy
02-22-2010, 06:39 PM
Whats crazy is he went from a total of 7 assists that entire season to eventually leading the league.

plutoblue11
02-22-2010, 06:41 PM
anyone else get some amusement out of the assist column?


1) He's a center, man.


2) It's actually (in reality) funny that he leads all centers in NBA history in assists average per game (and had two seasons where he was in the top 10 in assist and even lead in assist totals one year).

3) Even though, he averaged of 30 ppg and still consider the biggest ball hog ever, he still averaged more assist than Baylor, Gervin, Dantley, Arizin, Wilkins, and nearly every big men you can think of. While, only being .2 off of Kobe's career average and .4 from Havlicek's average. Yet, both players have never averaged over 8 in season, while Kobe has only averaged 6 once in his career. Also, remember that Wilt did this when he was still one of the best scorers, defenders, and re-bounders in the league.

Bandwagoner
02-22-2010, 06:42 PM
He sucked at free throws. I wonder why his shooting % was not higher? He was basically playing with a bunch of short white dudes.

francis 4 prez
02-22-2010, 06:46 PM
He sucked at free throws. I wonder why his shooting % was not higher? He was basically playing with a bunch of short white dudes.


shooting percentages were terrible for most of the 60's, especially the early 60's. i think russell was #2 one year at like 46%. and some of the celtics hall of fame guards had seasons where they shot right around 33.3%.

Ariza4MVP
02-22-2010, 06:49 PM
looks like yao has some work to do...

woket
02-22-2010, 06:59 PM
looks like yao has some work to do...

Sure does.

Melechesh
02-22-2010, 07:42 PM
Never saw Wilt or Russell play. How they got these crazy numbers is beyond me. Were there no 7 footers besides them back then?

ArtisGilmore
02-22-2010, 09:36 PM
He was basically playing with a bunch of short white dudes.

That's commonly believed but it's not true, it was true in the 1950's and earlier, but by the 1960's there was plenty of size in the league, also consider that there were only 10 teams and so obviously if you put together a list of all tall players there wouldn't be as many names as there are now.

topfive
02-22-2010, 09:45 PM
What really blows me away is that he scored 50 or more points in more than HALF of the games that season. :eek: :eek: :eek:

plutoblue11
02-22-2010, 09:57 PM
That's commonly believed but it's not true, it was true in the 1950's and earlier, but by the 1960's there was plenty of size in the league, also consider that there were only 10 teams and so obviously if you put together a list of all tall players there wouldn't be as many names as there are now.


I wish people would stop making that argument;

Nate Thurmond (HOF) - 6,11
Wes Unseld (HOF), 6,7 (245)
Kareem Abdul Jabbar (HOF), 7,2
Dave Cowens (HOF), 6,9 (230)
Walt Bellamy (HOF), 6,10 1/2
Willis Reed (HOF), 6,9 (235)
Bob Lanier (HOF), 6,11 (250)
Sam Lacey, 6,10
Elmore Smith 7,0 (250)
Johnny Kerr, 6,9 (230)
Clifford Ray, 6,9 (230)
Zelmo Beaty, 6,9
Tom Boerwinkle, 7,0 (265)
Walter Dukes, 7,0
Joe Strawder, 6,10
Rick Roberson, 6,9
Otto Moore, 6,10
Mel Counts, 7,0

Chamberlain played against all of these players, either in his younger days or his last few seasons.

I'd like to know, where are all of these short 6,5 - 6,7 unathletic white guys that people often bring up in these arguments. Most of these players could come into the league, now and still play (and even start at center). If there are any players above who aren't that tall, I'd figure most of them were pretty stocky (sort of like Chuck Hayes or David Lee) to where they could play situational center in the modern day NBA.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/playerseasonsearch.htm

I dare anyone to find at least 10 players in that top half of that list of names that is under 6,7 and under 235.

Dr of Dunk
02-22-2010, 10:03 PM
why are there no videos of Wilt Chamberlain passing?

He led the league in assists one year, so there has to be. ;)

Randy_Franklin
02-22-2010, 10:06 PM
looks like yao has some work to do...

Yao was Wilt in China :p

Air Langhi
02-22-2010, 10:06 PM
He avg 40 shots a game. His 1.25 pps wouldn't be great in todays game.

Ottomaton
02-22-2010, 10:58 PM
He led the league in assists one year, so there has to be. ;)

I think its a trick question. Back then they didn't have practical archival. All of the highlights you see were recorded on film.

:cool:

david_rocket
02-22-2010, 11:16 PM
He played against opposing centers that were 4'8". Whoopty do.

Especially that guy called Bill Russell he was soo small, and very unathletic. :grin:
He average more than 20-20 against Boston (with Russell)

Severe Rockets Fan
02-22-2010, 11:19 PM
He avg 40 shots a game. His 1.25 pps wouldn't be great in todays game.

This is a big reason why 'old time' stats are so inflated. There is no way today's game would allow someone to put up 40 shots per game...no way. We actually play something called 'Defense' in todays game...you ask anyone that watched the old NBA and they'll all tell you that defense is much tougher now.

It's amazing that he had games where he only shot in the 40% and sometimes 30's% for the game and still scored 40-50 points.

Still, he was clearly the best NBA player and athlete at the time...if he played in today's game he 'd probably put up similar number to the late 90's/early 00's Shaq, with more blocks...not too shabby.

But avg. 50pts and 25 rbs/game? Nah.

dischead
02-22-2010, 11:20 PM
Not really impressed. His FG and FT % is crap.

Modern day comparison = Greg Oden

durvasa
02-22-2010, 11:22 PM
I read Simmons' basketball book a few months back, and some other things about Wilt.

It seems crazy to say, but something about him reminds me of Tracy McGrady. He was a guy with enormous physical talents, but he lacked the killer instinct and he was quick to deflect criticism (particularly his lack of playoff success) away from himself. He had a tendency to shrink in the biggest moments. He had a reputation as a guy who cared more about his numbers and individual accolades than team success. He would frequently take plays off on the defensive end (especially when he was in danger of getting into foul trouble).

If you watch old footage of Wilt, even the way he trotted down the floor is reminiscent of McGrady.

Severe Rockets Fan
02-22-2010, 11:36 PM
I read Simmons' basketball book a few months back, and some other things about Wilt.

It seems crazy to say, but something about him reminds me of Tracy McGrady. He was a guy with enormous physical talents, but he lacked the killer instinct and he was quick to deflect criticism (particularly his lack of playoff success) away from himself. He had a tendency to shrink in the biggest moments. He had a reputation as a guy who cared more about his numbers and individual accolades than team success. He would frequently take plays off on the defensive end (especially when he was in danger of getting into foul trouble).
Yeah, whenever I saw him interviewed he didn't seem very humble. Still, he was probably one of the greatest athletes of our time. It's so strange that he died relatively young(63) yet was in such great shape, even in his 50's. Congestive Heart Failure...but his heart should've been in great shape...but apparently he was having heart trouble for years before his death.

rimrocker
02-23-2010, 12:49 AM
In 66-67, he shot 68%.

In 72-73, he shot 72%.

He led the league in FG% 9 times.

topfive
02-23-2010, 12:52 AM
Not really impressed. His FG and FT % is crap.

Modern day comparison = Greg Oden

I think you misspelled your screen name. :rolleyes:

rimrocker
02-23-2010, 12:56 AM
Also, he made the playoffs 13 times and his lowest playoff rebounding average was 20.2, which is incredible.

(I can see the arguments about the early 1960's, but by the early 70's, the game was not that different.)

durvasa
02-23-2010, 01:07 AM
Also, he made the playoffs 13 times and his lowest playoff rebounding average was 20.2, which is incredible.

(I can see the arguments about the early 1960's, but by the early 70's, the game was not that different.)

In 72-73, NBA teams averaged 50.4 rebounds per 48 minutes played.

This season, they average 41.6 rebounds per 48 minutes played (17% less).

In 72-73, Chamberlain averaged 18.6 rebounds, playing 43.2 minutes per game. If you reduce that by 17%, it would come down to 15.4 rebounds per 43.2 minutes. By comparison, Dwight Howard averages 13.5 rebounds, playing 35.4 mpg; so for every 43.2 minutes played, he grabs 16.5 rebounds.

Chamberlain was a great rebounder, but he isn't in a different stratosphere compared to Howard, as one may be lead to believe with a naive look at the numbers.

vipershot24
02-23-2010, 01:25 AM
I saw a link to this over at the apbr metrics forums.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers/2008-05/msg02598.html

It is Wilt Chamberlain's game log for the 1961-1962 season. Just kind of fun to look at. I copied it below, in more text friendly formatting:


WILT CHAMBERLAIN?S 1961-62 GAME-BY-GAME

DATE G Min FGM FGA FG% FTM FTA FT% REB AST PF PTS
10/19/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 1 48 21 44 0.477 6 12 0.5 25 1 1 48
10/20/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 2 48 24 46 0.522 9 17 0.529 32 1 2 57
10/21/61 New York at Philadelphia 3 48 21 41 0.512 11 17 0.647 35 0 2 53
10/27/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 4 48 21 45 0.467 13 21 0.619 24 3 3 55
10/28/61 Philadelphia at Syracuse 5 48 17 43 0.395 9 14 0.643 23 3 0 43
11/03/61 Boston at Philadelphia 6 48 12 31 0.387 4 9 0.444 33 1 2 28
11/04/61 Detroit at Philadelphia 7 48 24 48 0.5 10 16 0.625 33 0 1 58
11/08/61 Philadelphia at Detroit 8 48 23 46 0.5 12 19 0.632 23 1 3 58
11/09/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 9 48 20 38 0.526 15 27 0.556 29 0 1 55
11/11/61 Philadelphia at Boston 10 48 17 40 0.425 7 13 0.538 21 3 4 41
11/14/61 Philadelphia at New York 11 48 13 27 0.481 8 17 0.471 18 2 2 34
11/15/61 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 12 48 18 42 0.429 7 13 0.538 18 5 1 43
11/17/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 13 48 24 48 0.5 8 19 0.421 32 2 1 56
11/18/61 Philadelphia at Syracuse 14 48 13 32 0.406 13 20 0.65 17 2 1 39
11/19/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 15 48 24 47 0.511 3 8 0.375 16 0 2 51
11/21/61 Philadelphia at Cincinnati 16 48 20 44 0.455 5 15 0.333 34 6 0 45
11/23/61 Boston at Philadelphia 17 48 12 34 0.353 7 12 0.583 30 5 1 31
11/25/61 Chicago at Philadelphia 18 48 15 37 0.405 9 12 0.75 38 3 2 39
11/28/61 Philadelphia at St. Louis 19 48 13 28 0.464 13 25 0.52 22 1 0 39
12/01/61 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 20 48 22 47 0.468 16 26 0.615 21 4 1 60
12/02/61 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 21 48 11 22 0.5 15 26 0.577 24 1 1 37
12/05/61 Philadelphia at New York 22 48 17 31 0.548 5 12 0.417 22 4 1 39
12/06/61 St. Louis at Philadelphia 23 48 12 27 0.444 15 20 0.75 16 1 2 39
12/08/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 24 63 31 62 0.5 16 31 0.516 43 1 4 78
12/09/61 Chicago at Philadelphia 25 48 28 48 0.583 5 10 0.5 36 0 3 61
12/10/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 26 48 23 44 0.523 9 16 0.563 26 2 4 55
12/12/61 Detroit at Philadelphia 27 48 22 42 0.524 10 14 0.714 25 5 2 54
12/13/61 Philadelphia at Boston 28 48 22 43 0.512 8 12 0.667 30 0 2 52
12/14/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 29 48 17 39 0.436 9 17 0.529 22 2 1 43
12/16/61 Philadelphia at Chicago 30 48 21 39 0.538 8 12 0.667 21 3 3 50
12/19/61 Philadelphia at Cincinnati 31 48 24 47 0.511 9 14 0.643 25 1 0 57
12/20/61 Philadelphia at Detroit 32 48 24 47 0.511 7 11 0.636 19 0 0 55
12/25/61 Philadelphia at New York 33 58 23 44 0.523 13 22 0.591 36 0 3 59
12/26/61 Syracuse at Philadelphia 34 48 21 53 0.396 9 15 0.6 29 1 2 51
12/27/61 New York at Philadelphia 35 48 20 42 0.476 13 18 0.722 30 4 3 53
12/29/61 Los Angeles at Philadelphia 36 48 24 43 0.558 12 19 0.632 26 3 1 60
12/30/61 Boston at Philadelphia 37 53 17 34 0.5 7 13 0.538 28 3 2 41
01/01/62 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 38 48 13 29 0.448 6 12 0.5 20 3 1 32
01/03/62 Philadelphia at Los Angeles 39 40 14 25 0.56 8 12 0.667 18 2 1 36
01/05/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 40 48 20 39 0.513 13 21 0.619 22 2 0 53
01/07/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 41 48 23 41 0.561 9 17 0.529 21 2 3 55
01/09/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 42 48 18 37 0.486 11 21 0.524 27 1 3 47
01/10/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 43 48 15 40 0.375 9 13 0.692 25 1 0 39
01/11/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 44 48 19 40 0.475 14 24 0.583 22 5 0 52
01/13/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 45 48 29 48 0.604 15 25 0.6 36 0 2 73
01/14/62 Philadelphia at Boston 46 48 27 45 0.6 8 10 0.8 28 2 1 62
01/17/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 47 53 24 48 0.5 14 20 0.7 23 4 3 62
01/18/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 48 48 22 50 0.44 10 16 0.625 31 3 0 54
01/19/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 49 48 23 42 0.548 7 10 0.7 21 2 1 53
01/20/62 Detroit at Philadelphia 50 48 17 39 0.436 10 14 0.714 28 5 0 44
01/21/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 51 53 25 42 0.595 12 17 0.706 23 3 1 62
01/24/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 52 48 23 56 0.411 9 11 0.818 32 5 1 55
01/26/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 53 48 16 29 0.552 15 19 0.789 22 4 3 47
01/27/62 Boston at Philadelphia 54 48 21 28 0.75 11 17 0.647 27 1 3 53
01/28/62 Philadelphia at Boston 55 53 17 31 0.548 16 22 0.727 20 3 4 50
01/30/62 Philadelphia at New York 56 48 22 40 0.55 11 19 0.579 27 3 1 55
02/01/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 57 48 22 36 0.611 9 16 0.563 26 5 1 53
02/02/62 New York at Philadelphia 58 48 12 31 0.387 11 19 0.579 19 4 1 35
02/03/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 59 48 15 35 0.429 11 14 0.786 15 3 0 41
02/04/62 Syracuse at Philadelphia 60 48 19 35 0.543 12 18 0.667 26 2 0 50
02/08/62 New York at Philadelphia 61 48 23 37 0.622 13 19 0.684 24 0 0 59
02/09/62 Philadelphia at Boston 62 48 15 32 0.469 18 23 0.783 29 1 1 48
02/10/62 Boston at Philadelphia 63 48 16 33 0.485 6 14 0.429 31 4 1 38
02/11/62 Philadelphia at New York 64 48 18 36 0.5 6 13 0.462 25 5 0 42
02/13/62 Philadelphia at Cincinnatti 65 48 24 40 0.6 17 30 0.567 22 4 3 65
02/14/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 66 48 17 38 0.447 8 13 0.615 27 3 1 42
02/16/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 67 48 18 37 0.486 12 17 0.706 23 4 0 48
02/17/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 68 48 26 44 0.591 15 20 0.75 28 2 1 67
02/20/62 Chicago at Philadelphia 69 48 21 46 0.457 6 8 0.75 21 2 4 48
02/21/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 70 48 19 33 0.576 8 17 0.471 16 2 3 46
02/22/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 71 48 21 36 0.583 19 34 0.559 26 1 0 61
02/24/62 Boston at Philadelphia 72 48 11 24 0.458 4 13 0.308 31 0 1 26
02/25/62 New York at Philadelphia 73 48 25 38 0.658 17 22 0.773 21 1 1 67
02/27/62 Philadelphia at St. Louis 74 48 25 43 0.581 15 20 0.75 23 2 3 65
02/28/62 Philadelphia at Chicago 75 48 24 46 0.522 13 17 0.765 28 6 4 61
03/02/62 New York at Philadelphia 76 48 36 63 0.571 28 32 0.875 25 2 2 100
03/04/62 Philadelphia at New York 77 48 24 41 0.585 10 16 0.625 35 4 0 58
03/07/62 Philadelphia at Boston 78 48 13 38 0.433 4 11 0.364 27 2 1 30
03/11/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 79 48 19 27 0.704 6 18 0.333 26 2 2 44
03/14/62 Philadelphia at Chicago 80 53 15 34 0.441 4 5 0.8 33 4 3 34



:eek: :eek: :eek:

Bandwagoner
02-23-2010, 02:05 AM
That's commonly believed but it's not true, it was true in the 1950's and earlier, but by the 1960's there was plenty of size in the league, also consider that there were only 10 teams and so obviously if you put together a list of all tall players there wouldn't be as many names as there are now.
The third pick in the 1960 draft behind Big O and Jerry was a center, a 6'10" center.

In 60-61 the lakers had three centers on their roster, 6'8", 6'9" and 6'11".

knote32
02-23-2010, 02:18 AM
Best basketball player of all time...

Bandwagoner
02-23-2010, 02:23 AM
I'd like to know, where are all of these short 6,5 - 6,7 unathletic white guys that people often bring up in these arguments. Most of these players could come into the league, now and still play (and even start at center). If there are any players above who aren't that tall, I'd figure most of them were pretty stocky (sort of like Chuck Hayes or David Lee) to where they could play situational center in the modern day NBA.

I dare anyone to find at least 10 players in that top half of that list of names that is under 6,7 and under 235.
I searched centers in the 60-61 season and listed them by games played.

6'8" 230 bob Ferry
6'10 205 Phil Jordan
6'9" 230 Johnny Kerr
6'8" 240 Wayne Embry
6'8" 225 Gene Conley
6'9" 215 Hub Reed
6'11" 220 Ray Felix

That is 7 out of the top 10 in games played. wilt, Bill r. and another 7 footer round out the list.

those are forwards in todays nba. Most of them small forards or SG's


Oh yeah David Lee and chuck hayes weigh more than all of the guys I listed, so don't give me the strong argument.

Chronz
02-23-2010, 02:25 AM
Wilt hogged all the minutes for selfish reasons, its not that amazing

Severe Rockets Fan
02-23-2010, 02:30 AM
I searched centers in the 60-61 season and listed them by games played.

6'8" 230 bob Ferry
6'10 205 Phil Jordan
6'9" 230 Johnny Kerr
6'8" 240 Wayne Embry
6'8" 225 Gene Conley
6'9" 215 Hub Reed
6'11" 220 Ray Felix

That is 7 out of the top 10 in games played. wilt, Bill r. and another 7 footer round out the list.

those are forwards in todays nba. Most of them small forards or SG's


Oh yeah David Lee and chuck hayes weigh more than all of the guys I listed, so don't give me the strong argument.

Thanks for the comparison numbers. To add to your comparision, Jared Jeffries is 6'11"...240. he's bigger than ALL of them. :eek:

Hell, Shane Battier is about the same size as 3 of them.

Bandwagoner
02-23-2010, 02:34 AM
Thanks for the comparison numbers. To put this into a bit more perspective, Jared Jeffries is 6'11"...240. he's bigger than ALL of them. :eek:

Hell, Shane Battier is about the same size as 3 of them.
To be fair i did not mention this Shawn Bradley wanna be.

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Him, Russell, and Wilt rounded out the top ten in games played by centers that season. I am guessing Dwight Howard would have zero trouble getting 20 plus rebounds in that era.

SuperBeeKay
02-23-2010, 02:41 AM
Well when your playing field sucks, it's not that surprising..

rfrocket
02-23-2010, 09:10 AM
What really blows me away is that he scored 50 or more points in more than HALF of the games that season. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Another amazing thing is that he had only 2 games all season in which he didn't get 30. That would be incredible to be able to say that you had a full season where you never scored below 30 points.


And everyone's making a big deal of Durant's consecutive 25 point game streak.
Wilt had a full season. lol

echu888
02-23-2010, 09:18 AM
I read Simmons' basketball book a few months back, and some other things about Wilt.

It seems crazy to say, but something about him reminds me of Tracy McGrady. He was a guy with enormous physical talents, but he lacked the killer instinct and he was quick to deflect criticism (particularly his lack of playoff success) away from himself. He had a tendency to shrink in the biggest moments. He had a reputation as a guy who cared more about his numbers and individual accolades than team success. He would frequently take plays off on the defensive end (especially when he was in danger of getting into foul trouble).

If you watch old footage of Wilt, even the way he trotted down the floor is reminiscent of McGrady.

A few months ago, someone else here posted a similar thread about Wilt's monster statistics. That day I went to look up more detailed information about him on wikipedia. The overview of his career was an epic read :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

Truly a unique, absolute one of a kind player. Yes, Wilt was maligned and criticized for actually reaping much less success than seemed commisurate with his skill level. Apparently later in his career, a intentional focus on rebounding, defense, and teamwork served him slightly better.

Steve_Francis_rules
02-23-2010, 09:57 AM
Still, he was clearly the best NBA player and athlete at the time...if he played in today's game he 'd probably put up similar number to the late 90's/early 00's Shaq, with more blocks...not too shabby.

But avg. 50pts and 25 rbs/game? Nah.

I agree. Even if Wilt had played in the 80's or 90's, the best time in the league's history for big men, he would have been good enough to be recognized as an all-time great.

DudeWah
02-23-2010, 10:06 AM
He just absolutely destroyed Philadelphia. The number of 60+ point 30+ rebounds against them is amazing...

durvasa
02-23-2010, 10:21 AM
He just absolutely destroyed Philadelphia. The number of 60+ point 30+ rebounds against them is amazing...

:confused:

Wilt played for Philadelphia that season.

MightyMog
02-23-2010, 03:45 PM
It was amazing back than...I sometimes wonder what would MJ have done back than or any of the other 90's players?

durvasa
02-23-2010, 04:01 PM
It was amazing back than...I sometimes wonder what would MJ have done back than or any of the other 90's players?

I think Jordan would have averaged 40+ ppg, 8 apg, and 15 rpg, shooting 55% from the field. He would have been the league's best player, by far.

TheShooter
02-23-2010, 04:14 PM
Guys, yes if we take Jordan in his prime and put him in Wilt's days he would probably average soemthing like 40 PPG same with Hakeem or LeBron. And yes if we put Wilt Chamberlain from the 60's in today's league he wouldn't even average 30 PPG but there is a thing you guys seem to forget ..

If Chamberlain was born in the 80's and played in today's league, well he would surely be a ****ing beast. Think about it, he would have been coached by amazing coaches from his youth all the way to the NBA and surrounded with the best in the business. He would have a lot of more moves and better equipement for training and many other things. In fact, with his size and athleticism he would destroy Yao, Dwight, Shaq etc.. If Jordan was born in the 30's he would be coached by what? Same with Kobe, there were no modern day technologie, the game was very different and a lot of things were not discovered back then for the basketball game.

So please, before saying Wilt would be average in today's league or that Kobe would abuse .. think about everything that comes with the era.

HeyDude
02-23-2010, 04:18 PM
I think Jordan would have averaged 40+ ppg, 8 apg, and 15 rpg, shooting 55% from the field. He would have been the league's best player, by far.

Jordan averaged 37 one year in <i>this </i> generation....you put him back 50 years and he averages 50 easy

durvasa
02-23-2010, 04:18 PM
Guys, yes if we take Jordan in his prime and put him in Wilt's days he would probably average soemthing like 40 PPG same with Hakeem or LeBron. And yes if we put Wilt Chamberlain from the 60's in today's league he wouldn't even average 30 PPG but there is a thing you guys seem to forget ..

If Chamberlain was born in the 80's and played in today's league, well he would surely be a ****ing beast. Think about it, he would have been coached by amazing coaches from his youth all the way to the NBA and surrounded with the best in the business. He would have a lot of more moves and better equipement for training and many other things. In fact, with his size and athleticism he would destroy Yao, Dwight, Shaq etc.. If Jordan was born in the 30's he would be coached by what? Same with Kobe, there were no modern day technologie, the game was very different and a lot of things were not discovered back then for the basketball game.

So please, before saying Wilt would be average in today's league or that Kobe would abuse .. think about everything that comes with the era.


Forget all of that. Just consider how each player dominated his respective league. On that basis, Jordan's statistics were arguably more impressive.

TheShooter
02-23-2010, 04:28 PM
Jordan averaged 37 one year in <i>this </i> generation....you put him back 50 years and he averages 50 easy
You obviously didn't understand my previous post .. Jordan would not be as good as he was if he was born in the 30's that's for sure.

ArtisGilmore
02-23-2010, 04:38 PM
Forget all of that. Just consider how each player dominated his respective league. On that basis, Jordan's statistics were arguably more impressive.

If you consider level of dominance to be your determining factor across eras, then Wilt is the greatest. Shaq likes to call himself the MDE, but Wilt is the real MDE. Jordan is Jordan, but Wilt was Chuck Norris; just look at the quotes and stories from all his contemporaries.

If Wilt had a killer instinct, there would be no discussion as to who the greatest player of all time is.

HeyDude
02-23-2010, 04:43 PM
You obviously didn't understand my previous post .. Jordan would not be as good as he was if he was born in the 30's that's for sure.

I wrote that be4 reading your post. I see your point; its just too hard comparing players from different generations.

Imo the only player that could most certainly be a stud in our generation would be Ruth. He hit 60 HRs in a time w/o the weight training (and roids of course) etc. of our generation. And its not the pitchers were pie throwers back then, they probably still threw some heat back then.

ParaSolid
02-23-2010, 05:01 PM
I just read "The Art of a Beautiful Game" (which is a great book), and in it the author explained why the old timers had such gaudy numbers. With regards to the absurd rebounding numbers, the author stated that the lackluster average FG% of teams (around 41% vs. 45% today) combined with the quicker pace (he estimated that there were around 24 more rebound opportunities on average per game based on the quicker pace only) created many more chances to rebound. Defenses were not as tight as they are today because of less sophisticated scouting and inferior technique (individual and team), so it was much easier for a star player to navigate through opposing defenses.

That book really opened my eyes and shed some light on the mystery as to why the old timers seemed to dominate stats wise even though their games looked nowhere near as refined as Jordan's, Kobe's, or even LeBron's. There's no doubt in my mind that had LeBron played in the old days, they would have considered him a mythological beast.

durvasa
02-23-2010, 05:24 PM
If you consider level of dominance to be your determining factor across eras, then Wilt is the greatest. Shaq likes to call himself the MDE, but Wilt is the real MDE. Jordan is Jordan, but Wilt was Chuck Norris; just look at the quotes and stories from all his contemporaries.


I won't get into subjective feelings for dominance. And while my above guesstimates were based on what I think Jordan would have done if he magically transported into the early 60s, I recognize that is completely unrealistic and impossible to demonstrate.

Instead, I'll settle for adjusting Jordan's stats by calculating z-scores (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-score) which indicate what he's doing with respective to his competition. It is fairly straightforward to then transplant his numbers to another era. For this, I'll only consider players who've played at least 1000 minutes.

So, for the 61-62 season, including 3 early Jordan seasons, I get:


mpg pts reb ast FG%
Wilt Chamberlain 48.5 50.4 25.7 2.4 .506
Walt Bellamy 42.3 31.6 19.0 2.7 .519
Oscar Robertson 44.3 30.8 12.5 11.4 .478
Bill Russell 45.2 18.9 23.6 4.5 .457
Jerry West 41.2 30.8 7.9 5.4 .445

mpg pts reb ast FG%
Jordan (86-87) 44.5 47.4 8.4 4.4 .463
Jordan (87-88) 45.2 44.6 8.8 5.7 .505
Jordan (88-89) 44.6 41.4 12.6 7.3 .513

Gutter Snipe
02-23-2010, 05:37 PM
In 72-73, NBA teams averaged 50.4 rebounds per 48 minutes played.

This season, they average 41.6 rebounds per 48 minutes played (17% less).

In 72-73, Chamberlain averaged 18.6 rebounds, playing 43.2 minutes per game. If you reduce that by 17%, it would come down to 15.4 rebounds per 43.2 minutes. By comparison, Dwight Howard averages 13.5 rebounds, playing 35.4 mpg; so for every 43.2 minutes played, he grabs 16.5 rebounds.

Chamberlain was a great rebounder, but he isn't in a different stratosphere compared to Howard, as one may be lead to believe with a naive look at the numbers.

Speaking of naive - that clearly is what you think your reading audience is if you want us to compare a fading Wilt Chamberlain in the last 3 years of his career to a Dwight Howard in his prime. Wilt averaged 18-19 rb / 36 minutes for most of his career - while playing many more minutes. Meanwhile, you are allowing Dwight to rest up by playing fewer minutes and then trying to say that he is a comparable rebounder?

Give the big man his due - he would own Dwight.

ArtisGilmore
02-23-2010, 06:50 PM
I won't get into subjective feelings for dominance. And while my above guesstimates were based on what I think Jordan would have done if he magically transported into the early 60s, I recognize that is completely unrealistic and impossible to demonstrate.

Instead, I'll settle for adjusting Jordan's stats by calculating z-scores (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-score) which indicate what he's doing with respective to his competition. It is fairly straightforward to then transplant his numbers to another era. For this, I'll only consider players who've played at least 1000 minutes.

So, for the 61-62 season, including 3 early Jordan seasons, I get:


mpg pts reb ast FG%
Wilt Chamberlain 48.5 50.4 25.7 2.4 .506
Walt Bellamy 42.3 31.6 19.0 2.7 .519
Oscar Robertson 44.3 30.8 12.5 11.4 .478
Bill Russell 45.2 18.9 23.6 4.5 .457
Jerry West 41.2 30.8 7.9 5.4 .445

mpg pts reb ast FG%
Jordan (86-87) 44.5 47.4 8.4 4.4 .463
Jordan (87-88) 45.2 44.6 8.8 5.7 .505
Jordan (88-89) 44.6 41.4 12.6 7.3 .513


Wilt still looks more dominant to me. He still scores more at a higher percentage. If you want to bring assists into it, Wilt led the league in assists basically to prove a point to his critics. That's dominance right there. I don't think Jordan could say "I will lead the league in blocks" and do it.

About the size issue, players back then were measured in their bare feet, and those are the measurements we have, while they're measured in shoes (possibly very heavily padded platform shoes).

durvasa
02-23-2010, 07:36 PM
Speaking of naive - that clearly is what you think your reading audience is if you want us to compare a fading Wilt Chamberlain in the last 3 years of his career to a Dwight Howard in his prime. Wilt averaged 18-19 rb / 36 minutes for most of his career - while playing many more minutes. Meanwhile, you are allowing Dwight to rest up by playing fewer minutes and then trying to say that he is a comparable rebounder?

Comparable rebounder? Of course.

And Wilt's rebounding with respect to the league did not really diminish with age, so I am not penalizing him for looking only at his later years. Also, premier players in the early 60s era tended to play big minutes and grab a disproportionate % of the rebounds. I think its fair to say that Dwight's rebounding stats would translate to over 25 per game in the early 60s.

Give the big man his due - he would own Dwight.

He's a much more prolific scorer. The rebounding edge isn't what it appears to be, just by looking at the stat sheet.

ArtisGilmore
02-23-2010, 07:40 PM
Comparable rebounder? Of course.

And Wilt's rebounding with respect to the league did not really diminish with age, so I am not penalizing him for looking only at his later years. Also, premier players in the early 60s era tended to play big minutes and grab a disproportionate % of the rebounds. I think its fair to say that Dwight's rebounding stats would translate to well over 25 per game if he played in the early 60s.



He's a much more prolific scorer. The rebounding edge isn't what it appears to be, just by looking stat sheet.

The last 3 years of his career corresponded to the years after a major knee injury in the 69-70 season when he lost a lot of mobility. I don't think that if Howard suffered a knee injury and never fully recovered that he would be rebounding at the same rate (especially with 1970 sports medicine which is flat out primitive compared to now).

durvasa
02-23-2010, 07:51 PM
The last 3 years of his career corresponded to the years after a major knee injury in the 69-70 season when he lost a lot of mobility. I don't think that if Howard suffered a knee injury and never fully recovered that he would be rebounding at the same rate (especially with 1970 sports medicine which is flat out primitive compared to now).

Perhaps, but that's not really relevant to the point I was making.

People tend to look at the crazy rebounding numbers that Wilt and Russell had and view them as these mythical gods of the hardwood. But when you actually take into account the number of rebounds available to them while they were on the floor, the rate at which they cleaned up on the boards wasn't way beyond what present day "elite rebounders" do.

ArtisGilmore
02-23-2010, 08:11 PM
Perhaps, but that's not really relevant to the point I was making.

People tend to look at the crazy rebounding numbers that Wilt and Russell had and view them as these mythical gods of the hardwood. But when you actually take into account the number of rebounds available to them while they were on the floor, the rate at which they cleaned up on the boards wasn't way beyond what present day "elite rebounders" do.

Yes it is, because you took the rebounding rate numbers from the last 3 years of Wilt's career and compared them to Howard's. If they computed rebounding rate numbers for the first few years, I am sure they would be higher. Wilt didn't play much fewer minutes in the last few years.

I agree that Howard would get more than 13 rpg if he played in the early 60's but I don't think he would lead the league. I think Wilt would still lead the league. Howard is an all time elite rebounder, up there with Wilt, Russell, Rodman, and Moses Malone, but I think Wilt was better.

durvasa
02-23-2010, 08:24 PM
Yes it is, because you took the rebounding rate numbers from the last 3 years of Wilt's career and compared them to Howard's. If they computed rebounding rate numbers for the first few years, I am sure they would be higher. Wilt didn't play much fewer minutes in the last few years.

Actually, I don't think so.

Chamberlain averaged 27.2 rebounds per game in his second season. That year, NBA teams averaged 77.5 rebounds per 48 minutes played.

In Dwight's second year (05-06), NBA teams averaged 40.6 rebounds per 48 minutes played.

So, on average, there were 48% less rebounds available per minute in 05-06 compared to 60-61. If second-year Wilt played in 05-06, and grabbed the same rate of rebounds and played the same minutes, I'd guess he'd grab around 14.2 rebounds per game (edit: make that 17.2 rpg, see below). In Dwight's second year, he grabbed 12.5 rebounds per game in about 11 less minutes.

Draw your own conclusion.

EDIT

I made a mistake above that I need to correct. Team minutes aren't supplied at basketball-reference, but by adding up all the individual minutes and rebounds for every player that season, I determined that an on average teams grabbed 64.1 rebounds per 48 minutes played, not 77.5.

Using the same criteria as above, that means Wilt would have grabbed 17.2 rebounds per game playing 47.8 mpg in 05-06. Actually, the 72-73 Wilt Chamberlain would have grabbed 16.6 rebounds for every 47.8 minute played. And the 71-72 Wilt would have grabbed 17.3 rebounds for every 47.8 minutes played. It doesn't seem to be a huge difference.

plutoblue11
02-23-2010, 09:21 PM
I cannot really see how the younger posters do not seem to think Wilt would be better than most current NBA centers to the point of being the best one in the league (comparing him to the likes of Greg Oden). Yet, the man has greater set of skills than Dwight Howard could ever dream about and is far stronger than him.


Though, people point to him having T-Mac like qualities, even though his teams often made deep into the playoffs in most seasons he played a full schedule of games and often carried his teams to victory. I still believe the guy would dominate the current crop of centers in the league, mainly because he played against some greatest ever in their prime or younger days (Thurmond, Kareem, Lanier, Bellamy, Unseld) and a few decent centers like Elmore Smith and Sam Lacey. I'd even say he is probably more battle tested against above average centers than say Dwight Howard or Andrew Bynum.


Wilt's personal background info:
Point forward on Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:48 am
Hi folks, I just read Wilt's biography "Wilt: Larger Than Life" by Robert Cherry. Here some fun facts about Wilt:

* As a child, Wilt was shy and ugly. In high school, he could not get a date to save his life, and his sister Barbara speculates he left high school as a virgin.

* When he was at Overbrook (1954), he met Red Auerbach and a hot NCAA prospect, B.H. Born. Wilt beat Born 25-10 in a 1-on-1, and Born was so crushed that he decided not to enter the NBA ("If a high schooler can whip me, how will the NBA guys flatten me?").

* Auerbach also tried to get Wilt into a New England uni, so Red could draft him later as a territorial pick to the Celtics. But he was not successful, and the rest is history.

* On the Sixers, Wilt had a tense relationship with Hal Greer and Luke Jackson. Greer envied Wilt's fame, and Luke resented that he was forced to play PF instead of his normal C. On the other hand, Billy Cunningham was a good friend of Wilt.

* The one person Wilt hated more than anyone else was Bill van Breda Kolff. This enmity was quite mutual.

* Wilt hated to take showers after games, preferring to take large quantities of deodorant. Elgin Baylor called Wilt "The Big Musty" for this.

* Wilt deeply hated Kareem, blasting him for a perceived inability to score big numbers, get rebounds, or play defense. He even called one of his dogs "Careem" to provoke him.

* Wilt was a very good volleyball player, but not world class. Ex-Laker Keith Erickson (an All American volleyballer) was better than him. Still, when Wilt played, the audience magically multiplied.

* Wilt was an insomniac.

* Wilt had a gigantic sex drive. David Shaw (LA Times) testified Wilt once had a foursome which started at 11pm and was still ongoing at 5am. When Wilt was on Honolulu, he had 23 women in 10 days.

* In LA, Wilt had a retractable roof over his bed. He liked to sleep gazing at the stars.

* Wilt liked to play backgammon.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=752848&start=0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_life_of_Wilt_Chamberlain

http://www.basketball-plays-and-tips.com/wilt-chamberlain-quotes.html

http://www.quotesandpoem.com/quotes/listquotes/author/wilt-chamberlain


more on the Kareem-Wilt rivalry
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FRIENDSHIP+WAS+STRAINED+OVER+TIME-a083625216

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html

jsb
02-23-2010, 09:32 PM
Actually, I don't think so.

Chamberlain averaged 27.2 rebounds per game in his second season. That year, NBA teams averaged 77.5 rebounds per 48 minutes played.

In Dwight's second year (05-06), NBA teams averaged 40.6 rebounds per 48 minutes played.

So, on average, there were 48% less rebounds available per minute in 05-06 compared to 60-61. If second-year Wilt played in 05-06, and grabbed the same rate of rebounds and played the same minutes, I'd guess he'd grab around 14.2 rebounds per game. In Dwight's second year, he grabbed 12.5 rebounds per game in about 11 less minutes.

Draw your own conclusion.

Sometimes the adage, "nobody knows how stupid you are until you open your mouth" applies to blogging as well. Trying to say Dwight Howard is even in the same conversation as Chamberlain as a basketball player is almost more than I can stand. Normally I try to stay out of these conversations because it's obvious the majority of these folks never watched the old players play. So how you can blast someone or compare these guys to a modern player is beyond me, but you sir have put me over the edge.

Lets go to a more reasonable argument your Jordan-Chamberlain comparison. Just looking at the stats from 61', Chamberlain averaged 50 points a game. You know why that number is almost mind blowing, guys like Robertson and West in their hey day averaged 40% less points than he did. That's like saying Jordan's 30 point average year, that the next highest scorer in the league had 18. Think about that the next highest scoring average was 40% less than his that year. If that's not total dominance what is???

Let me tell you, when he first came into the league he was the most athletic big man anyone had ever seen. He was a giant but his athleticism was off the charts. A guy his size and he was an olympic level volleyball player as well. As he progressed he obviously got into body building that by the end of his career he was huge. The post I believe you also made comparing his rebounding stats with Howard you are also comparing Wilt's end of his career year with Howard's prime stats.

His career also coincided with probably the greatest dynasty of all time the Boston Celtics. That had just a bit to do with his not winning championships at a greater rate. An example of that was the famous Havlicek steals the ball video was against the Chamberlain led 76er team that was down 1 point at the moment in game 7. He had 30 points and 32 rebounds in that game, that's a choker????

As for his not playing hard all the time, are you seriously going to judge an entire career on a one time video tape??? If Jordan doesn't retire and Hakeem doesn't get his rings (just a thought), is Hakeem still not the greatest center of his generation???? Is he still not one of the greatest centers of all time??? In 67' his Philadelphia team won a then record 68 games and is considered one of the greatest teams of all time. His 72 Laker team still holds the record 33 game winning streak. Do you really think Dwight Howard will come close to those achievements??

What made him such an awesome player was he could literally do it all, play defense, score, rebound, block shots and lead his team in assists at the center spot. A great player that was ahead of his time in many aspects. He also played in a period where the black athlete never received their due because of racism that existed throughout the country but he never appeared to let it bother him because he had a great sense of self worth. Someone wants to say Jordan was the better player, ok everyone has an opinion, but to compare him with Dwight Howard, my god just put the keyboard down please.

durvasa
02-23-2010, 10:11 PM
Sometimes the adage, "nobody knows how stupid you are until you open your mouth" applies to blogging as well. Trying to say Dwight Howard is even in the same conversation as Chamberlain as a basketball player is almost more than I can stand. Normally I try to stay out of these conversations because it's obvious the majority of these folks never watched the old players play. So how you can blast someone or compare these guys to a modern player is beyond me, but you sir have put me over the edge.

Ok.

Lets go to a more reasonable argument your Jordan-Chamberlain comparison. Just looking at the stats from 61', Chamberlain averaged 50 points a game. You know why that number is almost mind blowing, guys like Robertson and West in their hey day averaged 40% less points than he did. That's like saying Jordan's 30 point average year, that the next highest scorer in the league had 18.Think about that the next highest scoring average was 40% less than his that year. If that's not total dominance what is???

What's "mind-blowing" to you, isn't so for me. I'm sorry that angers you.

Let me tell you, when he first came into the league he was the most athletic big man anyone had ever seen. He was a giant but his athleticism was off the charts. A guy his size and he was an olympic level volleyball player as well. As he progressed he obviously got into body building that by the end of his career he was huge. The post I believe you also made comparing his rebounding stats with Howard you are also comparing Wilt's end of his career year with Howard's prime stats.

The person I was responding to was commenting on Wilt's end of career stats. But above I discussed his early career rebounding as well.

His career also coincided with probably the greatest dynasty of all time the Boston Celtics. That had just a bit to do with his not winning championships at a greater rate. An example of that was the famous Havlicek steals the ball video was against the Chamberlain led 76er team that was down 1 point at the moment in game 7. He had 30 points and 32 rebounds in that game, that's a choker????

Here is one take from a a HOF player who played against Wilt Chamberlain and was known for being way too honest for his own good:

Rick Barry (Confessions of a Basketball Gypsy):

I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser .... He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit it publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined, and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West ... these are clutch competitors.

The above quote is from Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball, and really there is a great, lengthy chapter in there comparing Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. The game you refer to is mentioned as one of Wilt's three finest moments. But Simmons' also recounts game 7's of 1968, 1969, and 1970. In '68, Wilt only attempted 2 shots after half time, kept passing the ball off to teammates, and blamed them afterwards for their cold shooting. In 1969, he banged his knee and asked out of the game with 5 minutes left, pissing off his own coach. 1970 was, of course, the famous Knicks game where Wilt was matched up against a hobbled Willis Reed and couldn't capitalize.


As for his not playing hard all the time, are you seriously going to judge an entire career on a one time video tape???

I didn't realize I did that.

If Jordan doesn't retire and Hakeem doesn't get his rings (just a thought), is Hakeem still not the greatest center of his generation???? Is he still not one of the greatest centers of all time??? In 67' his Philadelphia team won a then record 68 games and is considered one of the greatest teams of all time. His 72 Laker team still holds the record 33 game winning streak. Do you really think Dwight Howard will come close to those achievements??

What does Dwight Howard's ability or inability to win rings have to do anything I wrote?

What made him such an awesome player was he could literally do it all, play defense, score, rebound, block shots and lead his team in assists at the center spot. A great player that was ahead of his time in many aspects. He also played in a period where the black athlete never received their due because of racism that existed throughout the country but he never appeared to let it bother him because he had a great sense of self worth. Someone wants to say Jordan was the better player, ok everyone has an opinion, but to compare him with Dwight Howard, my god just put the keyboard down please.

First of all, I'll compare whichever players I damn well please.

Second of all, I was comparing Wilt's rebounding performance to a contemporary "elite" rebounder. I wasn't comparing them as "players" or as "competitors" or as "victims of racism".

Slimjim19
02-23-2010, 10:14 PM
If Kobe played in that era, he'd average 81 a game.

BarkleyHater84
02-23-2010, 10:32 PM
Well, that is why he is a baketball legend. People talk about Bill Russell, but lets be real, he played on a freakin superteam. How many hall of famers? Don't go there. And as far as the inferior competition, how many DOMINANT Centers are there right now? That are actually playing(Yao does not count for the moment). 2? 3? Well there was just as many back then.....

Bandwagoner
02-23-2010, 10:41 PM
Trying to say Dwight Howard is even in the same conversation as Chamberlain as a basketball player is almost more than I can stand. .
Howard would take more rebounds than wilt and durvasa just showed you the stats to back up that statement. You however came with nothing except how we all suck because we are not 60 years old and didn't personally attend Wilt's games.

Dwight is probably the best rebounder ever. Sorry.

bullardfan
02-23-2010, 11:06 PM
He played against opposing centers that were 4'8". Whoopty do.

it's like kobe schooling that 13 year old and then talking smack to him.

ArtisGilmore
02-24-2010, 12:05 AM
Howard would take more rebounds than wilt and durvasa just showed you the stats to back up that statement. You however came with nothing except how we all suck because we are not 60 years old and didn't personally attend Wilt's games.

Dwight is probably the best rebounder ever. Sorry.

OK, so durvasa projected that Wilt would average 17 rebounds today per 48 minutes, except Wilt can and did play 48 minutes a game night in and night out, never fouled out of a game, so Wilt will average close to that number as his. That's way more than anyone else. Howard leads the league at 13.5, who's the better rebounder?

Bandwagoner
02-24-2010, 12:08 AM
OK, so durvasa projected that Wilt would average 17 rebounds today per 48 minutes, except Wilt can and did play 48 minutes a game night in and night out, never fouled out of a game, so Wilt will average close to that number as his. That's way more than anyone else. Howard leads the league at 13.5, who's the better rebounder?


per 48 Howard averages 18, against taller stronger players. durvasa's stats only adjusted for available rebounds due to them not being able to hit any shots in that era.

Howard is clearly the better rebounder.

jsb
02-24-2010, 08:08 AM
per 48 Howard averages 18, against taller stronger players. durvasa's stats only adjusted for available rebounds due to them not being able to hit any shots in that era.

Howard is clearly the better rebounder.

In the 71-72 season Chamberlain played against these starting centers Bob Rule, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed, Elmore Smith, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy, Sam Lacey, Walt Wesley, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Tom Boerwinkle, Neal Walk and Bob Lanier. They were taller and stronger than these guys?????? Taller and stronger, REALLY???? I believe there are several hall of famers in this group and some of the ones that aren't were better centers than Howard. Other than an over the hill Shaq, who in the world does Howard play against.

JLOBABYDADDY
02-24-2010, 08:26 AM
These are like PS3 Numbers! Taking nothing away from wilt, he is one of the greatest of all time. But if Shaq or even Dwight Howard played in that era where everyone else on the court was an average of 1 ft shorter...... It would be like me playing a full court game with my son's 3rd grade class. i would dominate! i could probably score 100 in 48 minutes if i tried hard enough.

That being said, and eras aside, Wilt was one of the greatest Centers ever, and his numbers will never be matched.

JLOBABYDADDY
02-24-2010, 08:29 AM
In the 71-72 season Chamberlain played against these starting centers Bob Rule, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed, Elmore Smith, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy, Sam Lacey, Walt Wesley, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Tom Boerwinkle, Neal Walk and Bob Lanier. They were taller and stronger than these guys?????? Taller and stronger, REALLY???? I believe there are several hall of famers in this group and some of the ones that aren't were better centers than Howard. Other than an over the hill Shaq, who in the world does Howard play against.
Very good assessment. But the game log is from 10 years earlier, where none of these centers were around, and he played against much shorter and weaker players. So he was a foot taller than them and probably had a vertical leap of about 6 or 7 inches more than them. No contest.

jevon3012
02-24-2010, 09:33 AM
Put Shaq in his prime back in the same era and I think you get the same if not better numbers. Whats lost is that people tend to talk about height with centers of that era but I think that the more important attributes are agility and strength. Look at this picture of HOF George Mikan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GeorgeMikan.jpg In Simmon's book, he refered to the fact that Mikan had trouble getting up and down the court. Does this 6'10 guy with a Shawn Bradley build and Yao Ming endurance even make it into the NBA today? Now think about putting Shaq in this era. They would literally have to tackle him on every play and take the 50-60% he shoots from the line over what he can do against these centers.

BONIERO1576
02-24-2010, 10:04 AM
Not really impressed. His FG and FT % is crap.

Modern day comparison = Greg Oden

Wow, I hope you're joking. Wilt was one of the greatest athletes ever to walk on the face of the earth. During college he ran track, played volleyball, and played basketball. He still holds Track and Field records in the Big 8 that he set in the 50's. Even Calvin Murphy said that Wilt was more athletic than Dream.

professorjay
02-24-2010, 10:25 AM
There's way too many influences off the court that have effects too.

Between different cultural upbringings (ie huge differences in racial discrimination), money, the basketball system from grade school to the NBA (ie no AAU, 4 yrs of college required), technology, diets, advancements in training, growing up with different levels of competition to push you...it goes on and on.

We have no idea how Dwight would have turned out if he was born back then, likewise if Wilt was born only two decades ago. Particularly Wilt was not forced to develop any better when he was already so dominant.

EDIT: I also wanted to add Dwight would probably foul out in 5 minutes back then. He would have had to develop a polished offensive skill set and would not be able to rely on sheer physical ability.

Conversely, plucking a 60's era Wilt and dropping him into today's NBA, he would get knocked around a bit and would need to adjust to today's physical game.

Like I said, too many factors that are not measured fairly by statistics. You might as well compare touchdowns to 3 pointers to compare NFL vs NBA players.

MightyMog
02-24-2010, 10:55 AM
Sorry Durvasa, Didn't mean to get you into a flame thread about Jordan.

I always wonder how different players from different era's would have played. Unfortunately playing PS3 or Xbox ain't going to give me a good idea.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on how Jordan might have performed, I know you try to be real detailed in basketball statistics and I appreciate it.

plutoblue11
02-24-2010, 10:58 AM
Dwight is probably the best rebounder ever. Sorry.


I beg to differ on that one. Dwight isn't even in the top 5 ever. Moses Malone, Dennis Rodman (pound for pound, the greatest ever), Charles Barkley, Dikembe Mutombo, and even Ben Wallace. I'll even throw Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain back into the argument, along with Hakeem Olajuwon.


Let's talk more about Dwight Howard, even being against inferior competition (strength opponents, not other HOF worthy players in the league, except maybe old Shaq and possibly often injured Yao (who people say shouldn't be anywhere near the HOF). Who else is out there . . . You have to admit there aren't that many centers in the league who are over the ideal 7,0 and are considered all-star centers.

Furthermore, Howard has only average 20 ppg, twice in his career and his numbers are down this season to 17-18 a game. One could say right now that he often has trouble with larger centers (Shaq, Yao, Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace, and the Lakers' front line).



While, Wilt on the other hand, averaged more points and rebounds against an admirable list of centers (Abdul Jabbar, Cowens, Reed, Elmore Smith, Bob Lanier, and Nate Thurmond) in his last 5 years (32-36 years old). People can make the argument of Wilt playing against less than worthy players at the beginning of his career. On the other hand, you certainly cannot make the same about the league in the early to mid 70s. Also, it is often cited that he was also one of most intimidating players ever (even though many say he was nice guy)...Dwight does intimidate players away from the paint, but not in the same way that Wilt did.


In Dwight's case, you can even draw up a list of 6 to 10 centers actively playing right now, how are as good as 80% of the latter (even excluding Kareem).

plutoblue11
02-24-2010, 11:16 AM
Wow, I hope you're joking. Wilt was one of the greatest athletes ever to walk on the face of the earth. During college he ran track, played volleyball, and played basketball. He still holds Track and Field records in the Big 8 that he set in the 50's. Even Calvin Murphy said that Wilt was more athletic than Dream.


Some posters just can't believe player that they never was that good, even though records and his peer group say otherwise. Even if he isn't quite the same athlete as say Olajuwon. One would still think as far as centers go, he is one of standards of the position and probably would have little trouble against today's centers (if you somehow took him from 59 to 73) and put him in today's NBA (2006 to present).

Here's what his competition would look like:

Top Tier: Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, and Old Shaq

Next to Top: Andrew Bynum (with Pau Gasol could move up on level), Chris Kaman, Kendrick Perkins, Marc Gasol, Andrew Bogut.

Above Average: Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah, Andris Beidrins, Brook Lopez, Memhet Okur , Marcus Camby

Average: Jason Thompson, Emeka Okafor, Roy Hibbert, Samuel Dalembert, Andrea Barganani, Greg Oden, and Joel Pryzbilla.


I see a few tall and big centers on there, but I don't see too many potential Wilt stoppers. He may not average 50 ppg against them, but he can certainly manage 27 - 33 ppg and about 12 -15 rebs a game. His numbers would probably drop-off with less possessions and shooting attempts, but his game in general should have similar effect to what it did in 60s and 70s. There's no above, who has same combination of size, speed, strength, offensive arsenal, and scoring prowess as Wilt. It also doesn't help that most of those guys are powder puffs. It's funny how people talk about a center, like Yao, who is slow, not athletic at all, injury prone, and made of glass, yet he is arguably the best center in this group. Yet, you take a player who is about 4 - 5 inches shorter, but more athletic, an equally as good shooting range, much more durable, more aggressive, and probably much stronger would have too much trouble against modern centers to even start in this league.

Blurr#7
02-24-2010, 12:29 PM
anyone else get some amusement out of the assist column?

Ast. in Wilt's log stand for "Ass tapped" Wilt could score even after the game. ;)

ArtisGilmore
02-24-2010, 12:52 PM
per 48 Howard averages 18, against taller stronger players. durvasa's stats only adjusted for available rebounds due to them not being able to hit any shots in that era.

Howard is clearly the better rebounder.

Can Howard play 48 minutes a game? Can he actually maintain his rate if he played 48 minutes? Also, give all the players of the 1960's the benefit of modern sports science and they may be as strong and athletic as today's players. Heights back then were measured barefoot, today they're measured with however high platform shoes are necessary to meet "acceptable" height thresholds.

Rodman however has a case against Russell and Chamberlain. I have those 3 as the greatest rebounders ever, then Howard and Moses Malone next.

Dave_78
02-24-2010, 01:03 PM
I watch the footage, hear the stories and try to believe the myth but I'm just not impressed. I just see a giant playing among smaller, inferior athletes.

I don't see Wilt doing anything on film that a 25 year old Theo Ratliff could not have done 40 years ago.

R0ckets03
02-24-2010, 01:14 PM
I read Simmons' basketball book a few months back, and some other things about Wilt.

It seems crazy to say, but something about him reminds me of Tracy McGrady. He was a guy with enormous physical talents, but he lacked the killer instinct and he was quick to deflect criticism (particularly his lack of playoff success) away from himself. He had a tendency to shrink in the biggest moments. He had a reputation as a guy who cared more about his numbers and individual accolades than team success. He would frequently take plays off on the defensive end (especially when he was in danger of getting into foul trouble).

If you watch old footage of Wilt, even the way he trotted down the floor is reminiscent of McGrady.


How dare you compare Tmac to an all time great?!?! You are not a true Rockets fan nor do you understand basketball. :p

plutoblue11
02-24-2010, 02:26 PM
I watch the footage, hear the stories and try to believe the myth but I'm just not impressed. I just see a giant playing among smaller, inferior athletes.

I don't see Wilt doing anything on film that a 25 year old Theo Ratliff could not have done 40 years ago.


#1 - Lead the league in assists and lead every NBA center who has ever played basketball career assists.

#2 - Score 100 points in a game, or even average over 30 ppg in a season (there are HOFs from 60s - 90s who couldn't do that, and you think Ratliff would)

#3 - Never fouled out of a game (less than 2 fouls game - 1.98 vs. 2.87 fouls a game and Ratliff even lead the league one year)

#4 - When the competition got better in the 70s (I guess this also means taller as well), his FG% went up (though he was a better team).

#5 - Run a 440 meters in 49 seconds (The Sporting News: Overbrook High School: Wilt Chamberlain) or even outrun an NFL running back in slacks and bare feet (http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/wilt/article10.html) , during his holdout with 76ers and remember this account is coming from Hank Stram.

#6 - Play over 43 minutes a game for 14 consecutive years (also remember the pace that those teams played in 60s, Ratliff's career high in minutes per game is 36 (when the league is playing with fewer possessions at a much slower pace)



http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/ratlith01.html



Ratliff is only 235 (and 6,11 at that), I doubt he could crack the top 5 or 10 in 70s (Cowens, Kareem, Thurmond, Lanier, McAdoo, Gilmore, Elmore Smith, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld). As far as Wilt goes, he got the best of most of those guys.

Chamberlain weighed in between 255 - up to over 300 pounds standing at 7,2. It's funny, because in overall size, Wilt would be 3rd to 5th largest player in league (and this comes after Shaq and Yao, who are probably two of the largest men in NBA history).

You'd be crazy to imply that Ratliff could show the same skill set as Chamberlain in any decade of basketball. Also, a major point being is he doesn't really need alot of athleticism to be a great modern NBA center. Right now in the NBA, there's very few centers who are athletically gifted, and the ones that are ... seem to be I don't know . . . mental midgets. Another aspect, people do not seem take into consideration when comparing these players, which is Wilt probably smarter than most of these centers.

JLOBABYDADDY
02-24-2010, 02:57 PM
Theo Ratliff Is nowhere near the player Wilt was, but the point being made is that if you put Ratliff into the 61 season, he probably scores close to 100 points. And he is probably in the HOF today. And someone mentioned Wilt leading the league in blocks today? Blocking a layup from a 5'6" guard is a little different than blocking a dunk attempt by LBJ or DWade.

Gutter Snipe
02-24-2010, 07:03 PM
CASEYH makes my head hurt. Even if you say that both Dwight Howard and Wilt would average 18 rebounds per 48 minutes - Dwight would average 13-14 per game, and Wilt would average 18 per game because only Wilt is going to play 48 minutes.

How is the guy averaging 5 fewer rebounds per game the better rebounder again? Per minute numbers are a poor way to evaluate players - after all, the Chuckwagon had ridiculous rebounding numbers per minute when he played 12 minutes per game and that's all he was focusing on.

You need to give him more credit for playing at the pace of play he did, not less. If Dwight had to play at that pace of play, he'd probably have to drop down to 30 minutes per game.