CNNSI - Players who will exceed expectations (David Andersen)

[mau]

lock if already posted

Here are four other players who, like Chandler, have a good chance to exceed expectations this season:
• David Andersen, Houston: The Rockets' ability to overachieve when Tracy McGrady and/or Yao Ming have been sidelined the past couple of years is no coincidence. This is a roster brimming with smart, hard-working players capable of multiple offensive sets and styles under Rick Adelman. Anderson, a 6-11, 29-year-old Australian rookie who has been playing in Spain, fits right in. Offensively, he boasts good range and a quick release on his jumper, but can also score with either hand with his back to the basket. Defensively, while not quite in the bruise-brother fraternity of Luis Scola, Shane Battier and Carl Landry, he's not afraid to bang. Immediate plans are to make him the starting center in Yao's absence. At the very least he'll be in the rotation and fulfill the blue-collar demands of Rockets culture without a hitch.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/britt_robson/09/23/chandler.bobcats/index.html?eref=T1

[aussie rocket]

Whose expectations?

[Someguy1229]

Whose expectations?

Exactly, we are just hoping he can fill the center position without messing up too bad.

[Francis 4 ever]

I hate to be cynical, but I doubt he will be starting 15 games in. He will be too big of a defensive liability, and without any playmakers (Scola's inability to pass out of a double team and brooks inability to pass), he will not get the open looks he needs to justify him starting.

[BetterThanEver]

Whose expectations?
yours of course

[BetterThanEver]

I hate to be cynical, but I doubt he will be starting 15 games in. He will be too big of a defensive liability, and without any playmakers (Scola's inability to pass out of a double team and brooks inability to pass), he will not get the open looks he needs to justify him starting.

Well if can go further than your expectations of him, he will have beat them.

[Francis 4 ever]

i expect him to grow wings and breathe fire and eat lebron james children.

[BetterThanEver]

i expect him to grow wings and breathe fire and eat lebron james children.

:cool:
http://thoughtsonafilm.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/enter_the_dragon.jpg

[DrNuegebauer]

i expect him to grow wings and breathe fire and eat lebron james children.

He did that to V-Span once.

[aussie rocket]

yours of course


Won't take much to exceed my expectations.
:p

[saleem]

He is no banger on offense or defense. His strength is his mid-range jumper. He is not as refined as Luis on the low block offensively and neither is he a good rebounder.

[aussie rocket]

Assuming he gets in the range of 20-25 mins a game I would say averages of about 7 and 4 are the ceiling for him.

[saleem]

Assuming he gets in the range of 20-25 mins a game I would say averages of about 7 and 4 are the ceiling for him.
Sounds about right.

[meh]

Based on the replies on this thread, I think he will exceed expectations.

Mainly because we're so lacking in stars, that Adelman's offense really will spread the wealth. If anything, I'd expect people to think that Anderson's stats next season to be inflated because of the system.

[burnnotice]

With great journalism like this, it's a wonder why they don't still have CNNSI the TV station :)

My favorite part:

"Defensively, while not quite in the bruise-brother fraternity of Luis Scola, Shane Battier and Carl Landry, he's not afraid to bang."

Talking about Defense and not mentioning Chuck Hayes = Fail. More laughable that he mentions Scola and Landry in the same sentence as defense...

And Anderson better not be afraid to bang. At least then he won't be too surprised the first time he gets banged right out of the paint :)

[iconoclastic]

The writer seems to have confused Chuck Hayes with Carl Landry.

[Seth]

I think the writer means to the average NBA fan.

I know his game from Barcelona and he would be a very good compliment for Scola inside, i do think that if he manages to be out of foul trouble he could be a very consistent 8pts 6reb player and add good post and help defense.

I won´t be surprised if Andersen net us a couple of 20 point games as Scola did when he came into the league.

[ClutchCityReturns]

...neither is he a good rebounder.

There is really no evidence of that outside of oft-repeated misconceptions. Low rebounding numbers in international play don't mean someone is a poor rebounder. Scola's rebounding rate in his final year of Euroleague play was .22 rebounds per minute. Andersen's was .20 per minute.

In Scola's first NBA season, his rate went from .22 up to .26. In his second season, it went up again to .29.

Again, low rebounding overseas doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot.

[leebigez]

Assuming he gets in the range of 20-25 mins a game I would say averages of about 7 and 4 are the ceiling for him.

This is what I get from the 20 games I watched. I wonder who will have the better season, andersen or channing frye. I'm thinking frye and for the same money, we couldve had a youngerr player to boot.

[Ziggy]

Wish we landed Pachulia instead. I think Morey does too.

[Marsarinian]

I hate to be cynical, but I doubt he will be starting 15 games in. He will be too big of a defensive liability, and without any playmakers (Scola's inability to pass out of a double team and brooks inability to pass), he will not get the open looks he needs to justify him starting.

And who will be starting in his place? Joey Dorsey? Pfffff...

[Francis 4 ever]

And who will be starting in his place? Joey Dorsey? Pfffff...
Chuck... :rolleyes:

[caneks]

Iｄon't think this is the right choice for rockets.

[durvasa]

This is what I get from the 20 games I watched. I wonder who will have the better season, andersen or channing frye. I'm thinking frye and for the same money, we couldve had a youngerr player to boot.

It usually takes international players some time to get acclimated. I expect Andersen to be like Scola in at least the first half of this season -- inconsistent, kind of lost.

[meh]

Chuck... :rolleyes:

The Hayes hype on this board is just way too much. As much of a great man-to-man defender Hayes is, he's not a help defender. He cannot patrol the paint. HE'S NOT A STARTING CENTER. PERIOD.

There's a reason why the team puts Scola at center when Yao is injured. And why Morey prefers Anderson as Deke's replacement over Hayes.

[Russjr2]

Can we give the guy a training camp and a month or two of NBA court time before passing judgement?

I have a feeling we will be pleasantly surprised by this guy and the whole team for that matter. He can shoot the mid range jumper with consistency, I don't care where you are playing and against whom, if you can shoot it you can shoot it. Rick will put him in positions to get his shot off and he will knock them down. The other guys will start to look for him once they see he can really shoot it. He will be a solid player for us and a good role player next to Yao and whoever that other 'star' player is.

[durvasa]

The Hayes hype on this board is just way too much. As much of a great man-to-man defender Hayes is, he's not a help defender. He cannot patrol the paint. HE'S NOT A STARTING CENTER. PERIOD.

There's a reason why the team puts Scola at center when Yao is injured. And why Morey prefers Anderson as Deke's replacement over Hayes.

Please point out when Scola started at center when Yao was injured. I don't remember that. Landry has never started over Chuck, meaning Scola never slid over to be the starting C. Unless I'm blanking out on that one.

After Yao went down in the playoffs last year, Adelman chose to start Chuck Hayes.

The plan is for Andersen to start. But if he's not up to speed by the time actual games begin, I believe Chuck Hayes will be plan B.

[RocketsPimp]

He did that to V-Span once.

This makes DD cry.

[durvasa]

The Hayes hype on this board is just way too much. As much of a great man-to-man defender Hayes is, he's not a help defender.

And I need to add, this is just flat out wrong. Chuck Hayes is one of the best help defender bigs in the league. Not just once, but twice, Chuck has provided game winning help defense in the playoffs on a final defensive possession (against Portland, and a few years back against Utah).

I remember a game last season against the Hornets, when Chuck was huge in stopping Chris Paul's penetration into the lane. Rick Adelman even singled him out for it after the game (when asked about Luis Scola!):

http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Rockets_Rebound_in_Big_Way-289541-34.html


Rick Adelman

(on the play of Luis Scola): Luis did a good job. To contain them, you have to play five guys against them because Chris Paul is such a handful and creates so much for them. It was crucial that Luis and Chuck [Hayes] be there for help. Chuck, for the minutes he played, was terrific. He does the best job for us when they try to run that stuff.

[optAmystik]

durvasa makes great points. There will obviously be growing pains for Andersen, as there was for Scola. Andersen will become the type of offensive center that we saw on past Adleman teams.

After the dust settles, we will see Andersen start most games and, when the match-up dictates, the Chuck Wagon will start against opposing centers that need to be 'bodied-up'.

[burnnotice]

Please point out when Scola started at center when Yao was injured. I don't remember that. Landry has never started over Chuck, meaning Scola never slid over to be the starting C. Unless I'm blanking out on that one.

After Yao went down in the playoffs last year, Adelman chose to start Chuck Hayes.

The plan is for Andersen to start. But if he's not up to speed by the time actual games begin, I believe Chuck Hayes will be plan B.


The Plan SHOULD be for Chuck Hayes to start and IF Anderson were to earn it, give him the starting job. Chuck starting against The Lakers was crucial in going to a 7th game and he drew a game winning charge against Portlan, so that in itself should make it his job to lose. They reward Trevor Ariza with a big contract after having a couple of good playoff series. They should reward Chuck with the starting job since he had a couple of good playoff series.

People act as if Anderson is this great find, much like Scola. I mean lets be serious here. The Spurs wouldn't have given up Scola if he fit their team. Popovich was not going to play him because he doesn't play defense. Scola would not start for every team in the NBA. He is in good with Adelman because Rick Adelman has never and will never be a defensive coach. Anderson would also not start on probably any other team in the league.

In all honesty though, I would not be surprised to see the starting lineup either by the All Star Break or even at the beginning of the year IF McGrady can play:

C-Scola
PF-Ariza
SF-Battier
SG-McGrady
PG-Brooks

[burnnotice]

Please point out when Scola started at center when Yao was injured. I don't remember that.


Actually, he did for I think 2 games while Yao was out. He started at C against The Knicks and had 25-28 points and gave up 38 points to David Lee and somebody else who I can't remember. I made a post about it actually.

The guy is a disaster defensively at PF, I don't know what they were expecting at C :)

[durvasa]

Actually, he did for I think 2 games while Yao was out. He started at C against The Knicks and had 25-28 points and gave up 38 points to David Lee and somebody else who I can't remember. I made a post about it actually.

The guy is a disaster defensively at PF, I don't know what they were expecting at C :)

You're right, he started against the Pistons and Knicks last January. Rockets decided to play small against those small-ball teams.

[daywalker02]

Wish we landed Pachulia instead. I think Morey does too.

Let's see what the Aussie can do.

[leebigez]

Durvasa, andersen isn't close to scola as far as competing and toughness. If you remember and I know u do, scola missed a lot of mid range jimmy his rookie yr, but last yr he was on auto pilot ffom that range. I'm not hoping bad for the guy because he's a rocket, but like I said, I watched 20 games in a weekend with this guy and he's not what many think he is on this board. Think Sean Marks.

[durvasa]

Durvasa, andersen isn't close to scola as far as competing and toughness. If you remember and I know u do, scola missed a lot of mid range jimmy his rookie yr, but last yr he was on auto pilot ffom that range. I'm not hoping bad for the guy because he's a rocket, but like I said, I watched 20 games in a weekend with this guy and he's not what many think he is on this board. Think Sean Marks.

I expect him to struggle initially, regardless of how good he is. What he does after that would be total guesswork on my part (as I've never seen him play). You could be right. Or maybe the Rockets scouts are right, and he's something better than Sean Marks. We'll see.

[Dave_78]

And I need to add, this is just flat out wrong. Chuck Hayes is one of the best help defender bigs in the league. Not just once, but twice, Chuck has provided game winning help defense in the playoffs on a final defensive possession (against Portland, and a few years back against Utah).

I remember a game last season against the Hornets, when Chuck was huge in stopping Chris Paul's penetration into the lane. Rick Adelman even singled him out for it after the game (when asked about Luis Scola!):

http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Rockets_Rebound_in_Big_Way-289541-34.html

Beat me to it.

I guess to some people "help defense" means shot blocking.

[Dave_78]

The Plan SHOULD be for Chuck Hayes to start and IF Anderson were to earn it, give him the starting job. Chuck starting against The Lakers was crucial in going to a 7th game and he drew a game winning charge against Portlan, so that in itself should make it his job to lose. They reward Trevor Ariza with a big contract after having a couple of good playoff series. They should reward Chuck with the starting job since he had a couple of good playoff series.

People act as if Anderson is this great find, much like Scola. I mean lets be serious here. The Spurs wouldn't have given up Scola if he fit their team. Popovich was not going to play him because he doesn't play defense. Scola would not start for every team in the NBA. He is in good with Adelman because Rick Adelman has never and will never be a defensive coach. Anderson would also not start on probably any other team in the league.

In all honesty though, I would not be surprised to see the starting lineup either by the All Star Break or even at the beginning of the year IF McGrady can play:

C-Scola
PF-Ariza
SF-Battier
SG-McGrady
PG-Brooks

I don't think Ariza has any chance whatsoever against 80% of the PF in the league. Length and athleticism don't help much when you're giving up 40+ lb to the guy you're trying to guard. Ariza, from what I have seen, has trouble guarding stronger SF so he will get eaten alive in the paint.

I think Chuck's best shot of remaining the starter is for McGrady to come back healthy. McGrady got Chuck a lot of easy baskets plus having a real scorer at SG is going to make it easier to have less of an offensive threat at C (Hayes).

[burnnotice]

I don't think Ariza has any chance whatsoever against 80% of the PF in the league. Length and athleticism don't help much when you're giving up 40+ lb to the guy you're trying to guard. Ariza, from what I have seen, has trouble guarding stronger SF so he will get eaten alive in the paint.

I think Chuck's best shot of remaining the starter is for McGrady to come back healthy. McGrady got Chuck a lot of easy baskets plus having a real scorer at SG is going to make it easier to have less of an offensive threat at C (Hayes).


I agree. McGrady and Hayes work well together on the Pick & Roll game. I continue to harp on it though. Rick Adelman doesn't run pick & roll very often and both McGrady and Hayes suffer for it.

As for Ariza, I also agree. However, didn't The Lakers start him at Power Forward for a stretch? I could be wrong. That was when they started both Odom and Ariza. Then when they started Bynum, Gasol went to PF.

[aussie rocket]

The Sean Marks comparisons are insulting - only because Marks
is a New Zealender.

:p

[joegoroxy]

lol, i expect him to open up the paint for brooks with his outside shooting.

so if he can do that and then some he will exceed my expectations.

[Francis 4 ever]

The Hayes hype on this board is just way too much. As much of a great man-to-man defender Hayes is, he's not a help defender. He cannot patrol the paint. HE'S NOT A STARTING CENTER. PERIOD.

There's a reason why the team puts Scola at center when Yao is injured. And why Morey prefers Anderson as Deke's replacement over Hayes.
I'd respond to this foolishness, but I don't want to beat a dead bird.

[Dave_78]

As for Ariza, I also agree. However, didn't The Lakers start him at Power Forward for a stretch? I could be wrong. That was when they started both Odom and Ariza. Then when they started Bynum, Gasol went to PF.

Maybe he did. I'm not sure. If he can pull it off then that gives the Rockets even more flexibility but I'm skeptical. He is awfully light.

I remember when Shane was traded to the Rockets JVG tried him at PF (not sure if he started but he logged minutes there) and he got absolutely murdered. I imagine he is significantly stronger (and a bit heavier) that Ariza.

[durvasa]

I remember when Shane was traded to the Rockets JVG tried him at PF (not sure if he started but he logged minutes there) and he got absolutely murdered. I imagine he is significantly stronger (and a bit heavier) that Ariza.

You're thinking of the Utah game? Shane didn't get murdered.

[leebigez]

You're thinking of the Utah game? Shane didn't get murdered.

Yes he did. I remember when people thought shane could play power forward to space the floor. The utah game 1 ended that cause boozer was killing him. Then coach went to hayes as a result.

[durvasa]

Yes he did. I remember when people thought shane could play power forward to space the floor. The utah game 1 ended that cause boozer was killing him. Then coach went to hayes as a result.

Except Shane wasn't guarding Boozer that game. I even created a thread about it at the time, because people kept arguing that's what had happened.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=119751

It was Yao guarding Boozer for the most part, as usual regardless of who the PF starting alongside has been. Yao can't guard Okur at the 3-point line.

[saleem]

You're thinking of the Utah game? Shane didn't get murdered.
Shane didn't defend Boozer,but he was pulled out as a PF very quickly after a few games in his 1st season with the Rockets under JVG. JVG had said to Juwan that he would be coming off the bench and Shane would be the starter at the 4,but he had to change his strategy once he realized that Shane wouldn't cut it as a PF.

[Dave_78]

You're thinking of the Utah game? Shane didn't get murdered.

Uh yeah he did. He looked like a boy against men. It seems I also remember a lot of talk (from the Rockets) about him playing PF when he was acquired. That talk died after the Utah game.

[Dave_78]

Not to derail the thread but my original point was that Ariza probably cannot play PF because Battier could not. I don't think Battier's inability to play PF can really be argued.

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2006_4223559

"After one game the Rockets changed the starting lineup, starting Chuck Hayes at power forward and moving Shane Battier to small forward and Tracy McGrady to guard.

Coach Jeff Van Gundy wanted to keep a range-shooting power on the floor, but thought he was sacrificing too much defense and rebounding. "

[durvasa]

Uh yeah he did. He looked like a boy against men. It seems I also remember a lot of talk (from the Rockets) about him playing PF when he was acquired. That talk died after the Utah game.

You said Battier got murdered. I watch that game very closely a second time, and even charted what each player did on the defensive end. Battier did not get murdered, and he was not guarding Boozer. People assumed that because Boozer went off that game and got 24 and 19, and because Battier was penciled in as our starting PF, that Battier was responsible. Not so, if they paid attention to who was guard who.

See previous thread I linked to, and the following thread where I posted even more details on this game as far as defensive responsibility:

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=119799&highlight=Defensive

[Dave_78]

You said Battier got murdered. I watch that game very closely a second time, and even charted what each player did on the defensive end. Battier did not get murdered, and he was not guarding Boozer. People assumed that because Boozer went off that game and got 24 and 19, and because Battier was penciled in as our starting PF, that Battier was responsible. Not so, if they paid attention to who was guard who.

See previous thread I linked to, and the following thread where I posted even more details on this game as far as defensive responsibility:

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=119799&highlight=Defensive

you should have sent your analysis to JVG before he canned Battier as the starting PF.

[durvasa]

you should have sent your analysis to JVG before he canned Battier as the starting PF.

Van Gundy is a defensive minded coach who also put strong emphasis on defensive rebounding. He likes perimeter shooting 4's, but clearly he was conflicted. Such is basketball -- you're not always going to get everything you want. I had no problems with him sliding Shane back to SF and starting Chuck. It strengthened our perimeter defense, and put another very solid defender/rebounder on the floor.

I wasn't arguing that Shane should have remained a PF. Just that he was not the one being exploited (or murdered) when we played Utah that one game.

[meh]

And I need to add, this is just flat out wrong. Chuck Hayes is one of the best help defender bigs in the league. Not just once, but twice, Chuck has provided game winning help defense in the playoffs on a final defensive possession (against Portland, and a few years back against Utah).

I remember a game last season against the Hornets, when Chuck was huge in stopping Chris Paul's penetration into the lane. Rick Adelman even singled him out for it after the game (when asked about Luis Scola!):

If Hayes truly is as great a help defender as you make him out to be, he'd be getting starter minutes like Ben Wallace. Heck, at the very least, he'd be getting backup minutes from the 134 year old Mutumbo.

You can point to all the specific instances you like. I just need to point to his playing time, or severely lack thereof. Plenty of defensive minded stiff in this league gets starts at center, due to the dearth of talent at the position. I trust the Rockets coaching staff/management when they obviously tried to upgrade the position, first with Gortat, then with Anderson. Rather than posters on this message board.

[Dave_78]

Van Gundy is a defensive minded coach who also put strong emphasis on defensive rebounding. He likes perimeter shooting 4's, but clearly he was conflicted. Such is basketball -- you're not always going to get everything you want. I had no problems with him sliding Shane back to SF and starting Chuck. It strengthened our perimeter defense, and put another very solid defender on the floor.

I wasn't arguing that Shane should have remained a PF. Just that he was not the one being exploited (or murdered) when we played Utah that one game.

From Houston Chronicle:

"After one game the Rockets changed the starting lineup, starting Chuck Hayes at power forward and moving Shane Battier to small forward and Tracy McGrady to guard.

Coach Jeff Van Gundy wanted to keep a range-shooting power on the floor, but thought he was sacrificing too much defense and rebounding. "

You can argue semantics with me all night but it looks to me like the coach thought he was pretty bad at PF. When you're known for being a defensive wizz and the coach pulls you because you don't bring "defense or rebounding" I think it's safe to say you got murdered.

[Rocket86]

lol, i expect him to open up the paint for brooks with his outside shooting.

so if he can do that and then some he will exceed my expectations.

True but his rebounding is essential and would be badly needed on defense. His offense is a plus.

[Dave_78]

If Hayes truly is as great a help defender as you make him out to be, he'd be getting starter minutes like Ben Wallace. Heck, at the very least, he'd be getting backup minutes from the 134 year old Mutumbo.

You can point to all the specific instances you like. I just need to point to his playing time, or severely lack thereof. Plenty of defensive minded stiff in this league gets starts at center, due to the dearth of talent at the position. I trust the Rockets coaching staff/management when they obviously tried to upgrade the position, first with Gortat, then with Anderson. Rather than posters on this message board.

Mutombo played in 9 regular season games. Chuck played in 71.

[durvasa]

If Hayes truly is as great a help defender as you make him out to be, ... {blah, blah, blah}

You mean as Rick Adelman made him out to be? When you say that Chuck Hayes doesn't provide help defense, that's simply not accurate. Don't act like the coaching staff/management are on board with that opinion. They certainly are not.

Chuck Hayes, being only 6'6 and having limited reach and jumping ability, is not an ideal defensive center. He's obviously no Dwight Howard (who the hell is in today's league?). But to suggest "he's not a help defender" is just plain wrong. There's different facets to help defense, and Chuck is very, very good at moving his feet and closing off driving lanes. His understanding of defensive schemes and where he needs to be in help situations is extremely high. This isn't a message board opinion. This is what the coaching staff and management believes, if you actually paid attention.

[meh]

You mean as Rick Adelman made him out to be? When you say that Chuck Hayes doesn't provide help defense, that's simply not accurate. Don't act like the coaching staff/management are on board with that opinion. They certainly are not.

We're obviously talking about two different things here. You're mentioning help defense in terms of the type of help defense that perimeter players need to excel at. Being able to switch on pick and rolls. Get in position to help out a teammate. I don't disagree with that. Chuck can guard even wing players at times.

But that's immaterial because I was responding to a post about Chuck as the STARTING CENTER. Do you honestly think Adelman believes Chuck and shut off penetration and clean up guards' defensive breakdowns when he mans the middle?

[leebigez]

Durvasa, all I know is boozer couldn't be contained that night. Now, i'm not sure he scored all his points on shane, but I do remember the post up for easy scores.

On the chuck hayes help defense, I think he is a good help defender. He plays the pick and roll great because he shows strong and can recover, but when teams go over the top or go to the hole, there isn't a fear of a blk or shooting over arms. So when teams attack the rim, they see him,scola, and landry at the rim, but they don't change their degree of difficulty when approaching the goal. I think it was you duravas that had the stat of opponets conversion % when yao was out and it was very high. You can never fault chuck for being too small with short arms, but there will be and is a huge difference when coming to the rim with a risk of your shot being blocked vs maybe getting a charge.

[durvasa]

From Houston Chronicle:

"After one game the Rockets changed the starting lineup, starting Chuck Hayes at power forward and moving Shane Battier to small forward and Tracy McGrady to guard.

Coach Jeff Van Gundy wanted to keep a range-shooting power on the floor, but thought he was sacrificing too much defense and rebounding. "

You can argue semantics with me all night but it looks to me like the coach thought he was pretty bad at PF. When you're known for being a defensive wizz and the coach pulls you because you don't bring "defense or rebounding" I think it's safe to say you got murdered.

It's not a direct quote, first of all. And "sacrificing too much defense" doesn't necessarily mean specifically at the 4 position. Snyder was a weak defender compared to Battier. Putting Hayes in the lineup and booting out Snyder makes the entire 5-man group better defensively. And, yeah, obviously Battier is not a strong rebounder for a PF, but that wasn't a deciding factor against the Jazz.

In addition to all the defensive tracking I linked to in my above posts, here's something else to consider. With Battier on the floor in that game, the Rockets outscored the Jazz by 8 points. He played 32 minutes that game. That means in the 16 minutes he was not on the floor, the Rockets were outscored by 18 points. And yet I'm supposed to believe the Rockets lost because Battier got murdered? Uh huh.

I just can't take your non-JVG quote and conclude Battier got murdered on the defensive end. Particularly because I watched that game twice, tracked what Battier and the rest did on defense in detail, and therefore know Battier did his job quite well. I believe JVG knew this too. He had his reasons for switching to a more traditional lineup, but it wasn't because Battier performed poorly.

[durvasa]

But that's immaterial because I was responding to a post about Chuck as the STARTING CENTER. Do you honestly think Adelman believes Chuck and shut off penetration and clean up guards' defensive breakdowns when he mans the middle?

I do believe it. Chuck can't do the same things Yao Ming can do, obviously. He's not going to contest shots at the rim, and he doesn't bring the same intimidation factor. But he can definitely help close off penetration when guards break the perimeter defense. He's very good at that, I'd say. He's also good at getting at stripping the ball away from penetrators that try to get by him (effectively a block, though it may not count that way in the boxscore). He's good at getting a hand in their face when they go for a shot, and then turning around and pursuing the rebound (an underrated, but very valuable defensive skill).

You made it sound before like all Chuck Hayes can do is play man defense, and beyond that he brings nothing to the team. That's what I took exception to. Chuck is a very good overall team defender. He's just not a shot-blocker.

[durvasa]

Durvasa, all I know is boozer couldn't be contained that night. Now, i'm not sure he scored all his points on shane, but I do remember the post up for easy scores.

I broke down who he scored his baskets on shortly after that game.

I'll quote it here:


I went through the game and recorded what Boozer did on the offensive end, and against whom:


FG FGA FT FTA OR TO
Yao 3 5.5 3 4 1 0.33*
Battier 0.5*** 1*** 0.5** 1** 0.33*
Hayes 1 2 1
Padgett 1.5 2.5 1 0.33*
Novak 2 2 1
Mutombo 2 4 0.5** 1**

* - Boozer forced into a trap by Yao, Padgett, and Battier
** - Mutombo lets Boozer drive by him, Battier gets a blocking call trying to
help (Boozer goes 1 for 2 from the line)
*** - This is due to a couple plays involving Battier having to help on Boozer
... responsibility for the 1/2 FGA is split between Battier and Yao


There are some other plays where I allotted credit as I saw fair. At no point in the game was Battier actually guarding Boozer (which seems to be a big misconception). The reason for this was that Yao or Mutombo can't guard Okur effectively out on the perimeter, and that was the situation whenever Battier, Yao, Mutombo, and Boozer were on the court.

When Yao and Mutombo were on the court, they were the ones primarily guarding Boozer, and neither were particularly effective. To suggest that Howard would been the defensive stopper is really far-fetched. The most effective defender on Boozer was Hayes, late in the 2nd quarter. Boozer had only one field goal in that stretch, and it didn't occur in a one on one situaton (Hayes had to help on a penetrator).

[saleem]

Van Gundy is a defensive minded coach who also put strong emphasis on defensive rebounding. He likes perimeter shooting 4's, but clearly he was conflicted. Such is basketball -- you're not always going to get everything you want. I had no problems with him sliding Shane back to SF and starting Chuck. It strengthened our perimeter defense, and put another very solid defender/rebounder on the floor.

I wasn't arguing that Shane should have remained a PF. Just that he was not the one being exploited (or murdered) when we played Utah that one game.
I'm not arguing with you about the Utah game,I want to know why you think Shane shouldn't have remained a 4.

[durvasa]

I'm not arguing with you about the Utah game,I want to know why you think Shane shouldn't have remained a 4.

Mainly because I wanted Chuck to start. And I wasn't confident that our offense would be particularly good, so I wanted the best possible defensive/rebounding lineup on the floor as much as possible. That meant Rafer, McGrady, Battier, Hayes, and Yao.

[saleem]

I do believe it. Chuck can't do the same things Yao Ming can do, obviously. He's not going to contest shots at the rim, and he doesn't bring the same intimidation factor. But he can definitely help close off penetration when guards break the perimeter defense. He's very good at that, I'd say. He's also good at getting at stripping the ball away from penetrators that try to get by him (effectively a block, though it may not count that way in the boxscore). He's good at getting a hand in their face when they go for a shot, and then turning around and pursuing the rebound (an underrated, but very valuable defensive skill).

You made it sound before like all Chuck Hayes can do is play man defense, and beyond that he brings nothing to the team. That's what I took exception to. Chuck is a very good overall team defender. He's just not a shot-blocker.

Chuck is a solid team defender,but he will have his hands full in the upcoming season. He can't guard 5's and 4's simultaneously. Yao is a very underrated defender who altered more shots then he blocked. Even world class bigs like Duncan and to a certain Shaq had a hard time with him. That will be missed,along with Deke's rebounding,and shot blocking. Dorsey and Andersen will not be able to cover for it at the 5,neither can Pops get the job done at the 4/5 spot.
Luis can provide scrappy hustle defense, but he will get posted up. Landry has got a long way to go on defense.

[saleem]

Mainly because I wanted Chuck to start. And I wasn't confident that our offense would be particularly good, so I wanted the best possible defensive/rebounding lineup on the floor as much as possible. That meant Rafer, McGrady, Battier, Hayes, and Yao.
I see your point,but I hope you realize that this led to having such an anemic offense with only 2 attackers that Juwan Howard had to be pressed into the starting lineup.

[durvasa]

Chuck is a solid team defender,but he will have his hands full in the upcoming season. He can't guard 5's and 4's simultaneously. Yao is a very underrated defender who altered more shots then he blocked. Even world class bigs like Duncan and to a certain Shaq had a hard time with him. That will be missed,along with Deke's rebounding,and shot blocking. Dorsey and Andersen will not be able to cover for it at the 5,neither can Pops get the job done at the 4/5 spot.
Luis can provide scrappy hustle defense, but he will get posted up. Landry has got a long way to go on defense.

Interior D and rebounding will be a problem for the Rockets, I agree. Chuck Hayes makes up for his lack of size in other ways, but I'd be kidding myself if I didn't acknowledge that center is going to be a weakness for us this season. The Rockets decided to mostly spend their offseason resources on other needs. An understandable decision, I think, considering we're adding an all-star center back to the team next year.

[saleem]

Interior D and rebounding will be a problem for the Rockets, I agree. Chuck Hayes makes up for his lack of size in other ways, but I'd be kidding myself if I didn't acknowledge that center is going to be a weakness for us this season. The Rockets decided to mostly spend their offseason resources on other needs. An understandable decision, I think, considering we're adding an all-star center back to the team next year.

When the draft came along,DM knew that Yao was out for the entire season and also had no idea as to whether he would be able to make a comeback.Even right now, we can't predict how long will he even last once he steps out on the court. The fans didn't know about the extent of Yao's injury. There weren't any really good choices at the 5 when our turn came around on draft day,and none better after that than David Andersen, who is more of a 4 than a low post up 5.

[burnnotice]

If Hayes truly is as great a help defender as you make him out to be, he'd be getting starter minutes like Ben Wallace. Heck, at the very least, he'd be getting backup minutes from the 134 year old Mutumbo.

Again, you must look at the coach. A perfect comparison is Flip Saunders vs Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace was a Larry Brown type player. Flip even supposedly made a crack after Wallace left for Chicago about finally being able to open his playbook.

In Wallace's case, Saunders wasn't dumb enough to leave an All Star making that kind of money on the bench. Rick Adelman will always ALWAYS play the offensive player over Chuck Hayes. Mark my words. Though, he sure likes to toss him in the game when they need a big stop. Why not have him in the game getting stops so you won't need THE STOP late in the game? Thats my motto.

[meh]

I do believe it. Chuck can't do the same things Yao Ming can do, obviously. He's not going to contest shots at the rim, and he doesn't bring the same intimidation factor. But he can definitely help close off penetration when guards break the perimeter defense. He's very good at that, I'd say. He's also good at getting at stripping the ball away from penetrators that try to get by him (effectively a block, though it may not count that way in the boxscore). He's good at getting a hand in their face when they go for a shot, and then turning around and pursuing the rebound (an underrated, but very valuable defensive skill).

You made it sound before like all Chuck Hayes can do is play man defense, and beyond that he brings nothing to the team. That's what I took exception to. Chuck is a very good overall team defender. He's just not a shot-blocker.

Actually, my post was mainly about how Hayes can't be a starting center in the league. You simply pointed out the one part in my post regarding help defense and blasted my entire post based just on that. A lot of his defensive abilities are more suited for PF/SF defense than as a center. Hence why I scoffed at the idea that he can play major minutes at center.

In the end, I feel there's no way Adelman will start Hayes at center, except perhaps against certain matchups. And that Anderson is by far the better choice for the position.

[meh]

Again, you must look at the coach. A perfect comparison is Flip Saunders vs Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace was a Larry Brown type player. Flip even supposedly made a crack after Wallace left for Chicago about finally being able to open his playbook.

In Wallace's case, Saunders wasn't dumb enough to leave an All Star making that kind of money on the bench. Rick Adelman will always ALWAYS play the offensive player over Chuck Hayes. Mark my words. Though, he sure likes to toss him in the game when they need a big stop. Why not have him in the game getting stops so you won't need THE STOP late in the game? Thats my motto.

Actually, Adelman can finally "open his playbook" this year with Yao out. And the Rockets offense look pretty mediocre with Yao in the middle. So do you think Adelman wants Yao in the lineup or out?

Coaches may feel certain players don't fit their style. But they're not stupid enough to leave talented players on the bench. And FYI Wallace wasn't making all-star money until he signed with Chicago.

[ArtV]

I hope that Andersen is all we can expect, but realistically I doubt he's a starter or major minute (30+) player. I know he may be a Brad Miller lite which should work well in Rick's system but I still think we are going to be exposed if he's a starter. Right now he may become the starter just because we have no one taller that is healthy and that is not a good reason for someone to become a starter and not a comforting thought. I think Chuck will start the first few games but that too is not going to last too long before becoming over exposed. And I think Andersen and Chuck would be good backups but we still need a starter.

The question is who is going trade a starter C for the pieces we have without exposing more weeknesses? My realistic tthought is the Clippers. They moved Zach but they really need to move to some other bigs to make room for Griffin. I'm sure they'd listen to any proposals for Camby or Kaman. Camby already is an expiring contract so trading expirings will not get this done without adding some low paid high value contracts which I personally don't want to do. That leaves Kaman. Expirings would get that done and we could unload some of our extra players that will not see any PT at the same time. Kaman may not be the best starter in the NBA but I again I don't think anyone is going to trade their starter without receiving major pieces back.

Incoming Players
Chris Kaman 7-0 C from Central Michigan 12.0 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 1.5 apg in 29.7 minutes

Outgoing Players
Carl Landry 6-8 PF from Purdue 9.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 0.6 apg in 21.3 minutes
Brent Barry 6-6 SG from Oregon State 3.8 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 15.5 minutes
Brian Cook 6-9 PF from Illinois 3.0 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.2 apg in 6.9 minutes
Joey Dorsey 6-9 PF from Memphis 0.7 ppg, 0.3 rpg, 0.3 apg in 2.1 minutes
Will Conroy 6-2 PG from Washington No games yet played in 2008-2009
Garrett Temple 6-6 SG from Louisiana State No games yet played in 2008-2009

We give up Landry but we get get back Kaman and get rid of Cook's and Barry's spots. The Clippers get rid of a rather expensive C with 2 years remaining while getting back non-guaranteed contracts, expiring contracts and low cost contracts - they might even throw us one of their high 2nd round picks Morey likes. Now this trade won't do Les any favors on the LT front but I think we are headed there anyway and overall we will be a more balanced team.

Beginning of the season:
Kaman/Andersen/Hayes/(Yao)
Scola/Pops
Ariza/Budinger
Battier/McCants/Taylor/(McGrady)
Brooks/Lowry

Later in the season:
Kaman/Andersen/Hayes/(Yao)
Scola/Pops
Ariza/Battier/Budinger
McGrady/McCants/Taylor/
Brooks/Lowry

Next year (possibly playoffs this year)
Yao/Kaman/Andersen/Hayes
Scola/Pops
Ariza/Battier/Budinger
McGrady/McCants/Taylor
Brooks/Lowry

I think we can make 1 more push.

[durvasa]

When the draft came along,DM knew that Yao was out for the entire season and also had no idea as to whether he would be able to make a comeback.Even right now, we can't predict how long will he even last once he steps out on the court. The fans didn't know about the extent of Yao's injury. There weren't any really good choices at the 5 when our turn came around on draft day,and none better after that than David Andersen, who is more of a 4 than a low post up 5.

The Rockets could have pursued a more expensive center (via trade), if it meant that much to them.

[saleem]

The Rockets could have pursued a more expensive center (via trade), if it meant that much to them.

They did consider Gortat with part of the MLE, I'm glad they didn't offer him the entire exception. Orlando would have matched DM's offer,so yes,the only other way would have been via a trade.

Getting a good center with considerable experience is always difficult,and there is absolutely no use in chasing guys eg Dalembert. Kaman has had his own injury issues,and isn't a defensive player,but he can score and rebound.

If he does well and remains healthy,then the Clippers are likely to hold on to him,but I wouldn't be opposed to a trade for him,if they want to give him up.
If he continues to have health issues,then there is no use for him.

I do admit that it's going to be tough for Yao and Kaman to share minutes,but again no one can rely on Yao with his repeated foot problems. If DM thinks differently,he will be making a big mistake. Andersen is more of a 4 than a 5.

[durvasa]

They did consider Gortat with part of the MLE, I'm glad they didn't offer him the entire exception. Orlando would have matched DM's offer,so yes,the only other way would have been via a trade.

Getting a good center with considerable experience is always difficult,and there is absolutely no use in chasing guys eg Dalembert. Kaman has had his own injury issues,and isn't a defensive player,but he can score and rebound.

If he does well and remains healthy,then the Clippers are likely to hold on to him,but I wouldn't be opposed to a trade for him,if they want to give him up.
If he continues to have health issues,then there is no use for him.

I do admit that it's going to be tough for Yao and Kaman to share minutes,but again no one can rely on Yao with his repeated foot problems. If DM thinks differently,he will be making a big mistake. Andersen is more of a 4 than a 5.

I don't want the Rockets spending $11+ million on a backup C, in addition to the near-max money Yao will be earning.