View Full Version : Who is the MVP of Houston Sports?
I heard this discussion on 610 today and really got me thinking. Which team would be hurt most by their best player missing? In football, there's absolutely no doubt the Texans would be crippled if Schaub is out again. Rockets are obviously dropped from contender to fringe playoff team status when Yao goes out. Astros it's a bit iffy, you could say Roy O or Berkman's absence would kill us (as it has in the last few weeks with Berkman out). It is sad that 2 of the 3 are true.. :( *Knocking on wood for a healthy season out of Schaub*
arkoe
08-13-2009, 06:23 AM
Who's been doing it year in and year out in Houston?
Berkman.
Hmm... among active players career-wise Berkman absolutely (woohoo Rice alum!) but I was kind of thinking of RIGHT NOW. It still could very well be Berkman.
MadMax
08-13-2009, 06:41 AM
would be between Roy O. and Berkman for me.
moestavern19
08-13-2009, 06:51 AM
Scottie Pippen of course.
Creepy Crawl
08-13-2009, 07:09 AM
Andre Johnson, without him the Texans would be up sh!T creek.
FLASH21
08-13-2009, 07:13 AM
I'll have to go with Andre Johnson. He is easily the best pro athlete, professional, football player, wide out, etc.
He has remained in my eyes the face of the Texans franchise, has been thru all the ups and downs of this team (mainly downs) and has not complained one bit. No TO drama or Ocho Cinco show here. Even if Schaub ends up becoming a Pro Bowl QB I'd still consider AJ the face of the organization.
That's why I had to choose other. He's a freakin' beast on the field too. :eek:
Hmm probably should've included him in the poll too but I just think that the quarterback position is way more important than a wide-out. You can be the best WR in the world but the ball still has to be thrown to you somewhat accurately.
juicystream
08-13-2009, 07:49 AM
TMac! :D
ima_drummer2k
08-13-2009, 07:53 AM
Yeah, I'd go with Andre Johnson as well.
Without Berkman, the Astros are below .500. With him they are sub .500. Same with Oswalt.
Yao Ming can't carry a team on his shoulders.
The Texans have played pretty decent without Schaub.
Without the AJ threat, the whole offense grinds to a halt. Teams no longer have to single cover every other receiver on the field. And they can stack up against the run. That equals more 3-and-outs. And our defense plays better when we win the time of possession.
juicystream
08-13-2009, 08:07 AM
Yeah, I'd go with Andre Johnson as well.
Without Berkman, the Astros are below .500. With him they are sub .500. Same with Oswalt.
Yao Ming can't carry a team on his shoulders.
The Texans have played pretty decent without Schaub.
Without the AJ threat, the whole offense grinds to a halt. Teams no longer have to single cover every other receiver on the field. And they can stack up against the run. That equals more 3-and-outs. And our defense plays better when we win the time of possession.
The Astros are a lot better with Berkman and Oswalt, their big flaws are one only gets 4-5 chances to do something in a game, and Oswalt only plays every 5th day.
kaleidosky
08-13-2009, 08:14 AM
The Astros are a lot better with Berkman and Oswalt, their big flaws are one only gets 4-5 chances to do something in a game, and Oswalt only plays every 5th day.
except Oswalt gets 7 IP (assumed avg)*3 outs = 21 chances to do something over 5 days. Berkman gets 4 ABs (assumed avg)*5 days=20 chances over those 5 days.
I guess you could count Berkman's D, but I wouldn't say his D is what this team really values any more than Oswalt fielding grounders or hitting the ball..
noscrusir
08-13-2009, 10:01 AM
First name that comes in mind: Andre Johnson.
Yes, you should've included him in this poll.
The Cat
08-13-2009, 10:07 AM
Yao (unfortunately), and I don't think it's that close.
That's not to say he's the best player in Houston sports -- that would certainly go to Lance or Andre -- but when it comes to valuable, one star means far more to a basketball team than to baseball or football. It's just the nature of the sport.
texanskan
08-13-2009, 10:12 AM
First name that comes in mind: Andre Johnson.
Yes, you should've included him in this poll.
2nd that
Without Berkman, the Astros are below .500. With him they are sub .500.
you ought to check those numbers again...
Beyond that, I can see everyone's arguments for AJ.
rockets934life
08-13-2009, 10:23 AM
Yao (unfortunately), and I don't think it's that close.
That's not to say he's the best player in Houston sports -- that would certainly go to Lance or Andre -- but when it comes to valuable, one star means far more to a basketball team than to baseball or football. It's just the nature of the sport.
Agree 100%...the others plus AJ are SuperStars and Schaub could take that next step this year,in fact I think he will, but we saw what happened with the Rox when Yao was ruled out for the season as it went from Championship to lottery/8th seed. My opinion is that the Rox change there whole philosophy when Yao goes down and while losing these other guys have hurt the teams, they have continued on with there game plan but not in the Rox case.
Yao (unfortunately), and I don't think it's that close.
That's not to say he's the best player in Houston sports -- that would certainly go to Lance or Andre -- but when it comes to valuable, one star means far more to a basketball team than to baseball or football. It's just the nature of the sport.
To hell with "what if" value. Yao's greatest moment of "value" to the Rox may well be whatever they get for him if they ever get the stones to trade him.
I hate measuring value by how much it hurt when the guy was gone. The multitude of games Yao doesn't play, because he is as fragile as antique crystal, are a part of the sum of his value. And they bring his value DOWN. WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY down.
Every damned year, it's when, not if, Yao will break AGAIN. This last year he made all the way into the playoffs!! Bully for him. Now we go an entire season without him. How much value does Yao have on the court for the Rox in 2009-2010? I just flushed equal value here about an hour ago.
juicystream
08-13-2009, 10:32 AM
Agree 100%...the others plus AJ are SuperStars and Schaub could take that next step this year,in fact I think he will, but we saw what happened with the Rox when Yao was ruled out for the season as it went from Championship to lottery/8th seed. My opinion is that the Rox change there whole philosophy when Yao goes down and while losing these other guys have hurt the teams, they have continued on with there game plan but not in the Rox case.
2-2 against the World Champions without him.
10 wins of the 22-game streak were without him.
FLASH21
08-13-2009, 10:51 AM
Agree 100%...the others plus AJ are SuperStars and Schaub could take that next step this year,in fact I think he will, but we saw what happened with the Rox when Yao was ruled out for the season as it went from Championship to lottery/8th seed. My opinion is that the Rox change there whole philosophy when Yao goes down and while losing these other guys have hurt the teams, they have continued on with there game plan but not in the Rox case.
I'd still have to put AJ as the MVP overall.
He's been the best player on the worst team in Houston. Since you guys want to play the if game we can say if Andre were playing a sport that would allow him to have the ball in his hands during every possesion there would be absolutely no argument. He'd be the best by far.
Andre hasn't gotten any of the credit he deserves for being a top 10 reciever even when his QB was sacked 75 times during a season or on his ass 90% of his time on the field. He's an example of great professionality and work ethic, he is the best player in Houston of any sport to this day.
rockets934life
08-13-2009, 11:02 AM
2-2 against the World Champions without him.
10 wins of the 22-game streak were without him.
Championship contenders(atleast threats) with him.
Lottery/8th seed(1st rd exit) without him.
Just my logical...
We have won without Schaub and AJ(To a much lesser degree) plus the team hasn't even been over .500
Berkman goes down and the offense sucks but if he were to go down for an extended period of time we could in theory go out and get another bat and also the team is 2 games under for the season with him along with a high water mark of 3 games above before he went down.
Oswalt has been the second best pitcher on the staff so how can he be the cities MVP?
Championship contenders(atleast threats) with him.
Lottery/8th seed(1st rd exit) without him.
Well, we're with him, but we're actually without him. With or without him on the court, he still gets those max dollars.
Yao's value is a negative for this coming season. MVP my ass. Every Rocket who touches the floor will have more value.
juicystream
08-13-2009, 11:35 AM
Championship contenders(atleast threats) with him.
Lottery/8th seed(1st rd exit) without him.
Just my logical...
Experts predictions are not a good way to judge value. Yao is only MVP to Les Alexander.
Yao is only MVP to Les Alexander.
...and only then because of jersey sales and international pub.
juicystream
08-13-2009, 12:03 PM
...and only then because of jersey sales and international pub.
Exactly.
rockets934life
08-13-2009, 12:36 PM
Well, we're with him, but we're actually without him. With or without him on the court, he still gets those max dollars.
Yao's value is a negative for this coming season. MVP my ass. Every Rocket who touches the floor will have more value.
Ok my understanding was that the question was "Which team would be hurt most by their best player missing?" So you're telling me that Yao's loss has less of an impact as lets say AJs? I understand we went 2-2 without him and won 10 in row in 07-08 without him but look what happened when teams exploded our weakest link in the playoffs? Game 5 and to a larger extent game 7 vs the Lakers was a clear example of the issues we will have next season without the big guy. If we were to lose AJ we still have a number of players at skill positions that can pick up the slack but ill give you guys this if AJ does go down for the season we would go from playoff contenders to 8-8 at best again so ill give you a push but I wouldn't say Yao going down would be less of a hit then AJ going down.
So you're telling me that Yao's loss has less of an impact as lets say AJs?
Not in the least. I agree wholeheartedly -- the loss of Yao is much more debilitating than the loss of any other superstar in Houston sports.
It's just that I freaking hate looking at "value" that way. The sum total of one's value includes whether or not his fragile ass was actually on the field. Schaub, for example, even though he was a victim of a not-so-common cheap shot, really needs to put in 15 or 16 games this year.
See: "Ok my understanding was that the question was Which team would be hurt most by their best player missing?" just kills me. If the team is freaking paralyzed because Yao IS missing -- A LOT -- then that kills his "value" to me. Yao Ming, in the 2009-2010 season, is worth less on the court that the two logs I just flushed this morning. And, the Rox are paying 8 digits for that crap!!!
He's not going to play, and he's going to drain a huge chunk of the salary cap. How in the hell is that valuable? Sure he's a great player--but that only matters when he actually plays.
ind0fo0
08-13-2009, 01:41 PM
Andre Johnson.
rockets934life
08-13-2009, 01:41 PM
Not in the least. I agree wholeheartedly -- the loss of Yao is much more debilitating than the loss of any other superstar in Houston sports.
It's just that I freaking hate looking at "value" that way. The sum total of one's value includes whether or not his fragile ass was actually on the field. Schaub, for example, even though he was a victim of a not-so-common cheap shot, really needs to put in 15 or 16 games this year.
See: "Ok my understanding was that the question was Which team would be hurt most by their best player missing?" just kills me. If the team is freaking paralyzed because Yao IS missing -- A LOT -- then that kills his "value" to me. Yao Ming, in the 2009-2010 season, is worth less on the court that the two logs I just flushed this morning. And, the Rox are paying 8 digits for that crap!!!
He's not going to play, and he's going to drain a huge chunk of the salary cap. How in the hell is that valuable? Sure he's a great player--but that only matters when he actually plays.
I see your point and you make a great argument when saying if there not part of the "team" for different reasons how do they have value to the team?!?! I believe its just how a person looks at "value" because in my eyes while Yao has been hurt so often its not like he has become a Luxury to have him on the court but still a necessity to our overall goal of contending for a title. I guess its value vs valuable to a team and while AJ has more value then Yao because he actually stays on the field I still think Yao is more valuable to the Rockets success and short term goal.
K mf G
08-13-2009, 02:48 PM
berkman has yet to lead this team to the playoffs
when the stros last made it he was second fiddle at best
if shcaub is out it wont cripple the texans
that being said, you can see how far a healthy yao ming took the rockets
juicystream
08-13-2009, 03:03 PM
berkman has yet to lead this team to the playoffs
when the stros last made it he was second fiddle at best
if shcaub is out it wont cripple the texans
that being said, you can see how far a healthy yao ming took the rockets
God forbid you include teammates into it. Berkman has only been a part of 2 losing seasons in his career, and he has been the best offensive player that entire time, even helping to lead his team to a World Series. He was a dominate offensive force in 2004 & 2005 during the playoff runs.
Pre-Berkman Astros: 6 playoff apperances, but 0 series wins. 40 years.
Don't disrespect what Berkman has accomplished.
rockets934life
08-13-2009, 03:08 PM
God forbid you include teammates into it. Berkman has only been a part of 2 losing seasons in his career, and he has been the best offensive player that entire time, even helping to lead his team to a World Series. He was a dominate offensive force in 2004 & 2005 during the playoff runs.
Pre-Berkman Astros: 6 playoff apperances, but 0 series wins. 40 years.
Don't disrespect what Berkman has accomplished.
Puma has 2 of the biggest HRs in Stros history both in 05...the Slam vs Farnsworth and the 3 run shot off Carpenter problem is people forget because of the HRs that came after those. In 05 he was the man in the playoffs and consider he was doing it on 1 leg...Puma gets my respect for sure!
The Drake
08-13-2009, 03:12 PM
Where's the Wayne Graham option? :cool:
berkman has yet to lead this team to the playoffs
when the stros last made it he was second fiddle at best
wow... this is quite possibly the silliest, most ill-informed statement ever posted in this forum that did not include the words, "vince" or "young."
that being said, you can see how far a healthy yao ming took the rockets
Sorry, you don't get that choice. You get Yao Ming, period. Yao Ming took the Rockets into the second round of the playoffs for the first time in like ever. Then he broke. Again.
So how far can Yao Ming carry the Rockets? Up to his next fracture--that's how far.
Which, for this coming season, isn't even as far as the starting line.
MVP my ass.
The Cat
08-13-2009, 03:48 PM
berkman has yet to lead this team to the playoffs
when the stros last made it he was second fiddle at best
if shcaub is out it wont cripple the texans
that being said, you can see how far a healthy yao ming took the rockets
Aside from the absurdity of one baseball player "leading" his team anywhere...
Take a look at the 2005 Astros. Mind telling me what everyday player contributed even close to as much as Berkman? The only one comparable was Ensberg, and he was limited in September and October due to the hand injury.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2005.shtml
Take a look at the 2005 Astros. Mind telling me what everyday player contributed even close to as much as Berkman? The only one comparable was Ensberg, and he was limited in September and October due to the hand injury.
well... ensberg *was* better (144 OPS+ to berkman's 143) that year - but berkman also missed a month and took another month to get up to game speed. and he was, of course, an absolute beast in the postseason. as usual. carrying the team to its first-ever world series appearence.
the real silliness, though, is denegrating his 2004 season when he was *far and away* the team's best offensive player, both in the regular season and postseason. that's right - *post*season. i know most people have fond memories of beltran - but check the numbers: in the nlds, beltran posted a 1.091 OPS; berkman - 1.071. in the nlcs: .958/1.150. it's really not even close - berkman was by no means a "second fiddle."
trying to assign "value" to players playing different sports is silly but he's inarguably the city's best player right now with oswalt a solid #2. whoever's #3 is a distant third.
BrooksBall
08-13-2009, 04:01 PM
No offense to the Yao fans but I have no idea why he's even on that list.
Same goes for Schaub (the fact that so many people can't even spell his name properly is telling).
Berkman is one of the best switch-hitters of all-time.
No major league pitcher has more wins than Oswalt sine he joined the Astros. It would be one thing if he pitched for the Yankees or something but it's been quite a while since the Astros even had a league average offense.
Out of that list, it has to be Berkman or Oswalt or Other.
Cowboii
08-13-2009, 04:01 PM
Andre, & its not even close.
I dont know what was going thru that mind of yours when you forgot him.
rockets934life
08-13-2009, 04:03 PM
well... ensberg *was* better (144 OPS+ to berkman's 143) that year - but berkman also missed a month and took another month to get up to game speed. and he was, of course, an absolute beast in the postseason. as usual. carrying the team to its first-ever world series appearence.
the real silliness, though, is denegrating his 2004 season when he was *far and away* the team's best offensive player, both in the regular season and postseason. that's right - *post*season. i know most people have fond memories of beltran - but check the numbers: in the nlds, beltran posted a 1.091 OPS; berkman - 1.071. in the nlcs: .958/1.150. it's really not even close - berkman was by no means a "second fiddle."
trying to assign "value" to players playing different sports is silly but he's inarguably the city's best player right now with oswalt a solid #2. whoever's #3 is a distant third.
Berkman in the 04 NLCS was a monster just sucks he couldn't have gotten that was last hit in the 9th of game 6 it would have capped off a remarkable run!
I still remember the Homer in game 5 in 05...the ballpark went ballistic even more then Kents blast!
Andre, & its not even close.
i like andre johnson; i really do. sincerely. great, great football player. but.... he's averaged 5.5 TDs/year in his career. he's never hit double-digits. ever. not once. it's even more egregious when you consider he's thrown to as much as, if not more than, any other WR in the league. and to not have broken 10 is just... it can't be ignored.
schaub rates ahead of him by virtue of position; this team is built around an effective QB. i'd rate mario williams ahead of him, too. not that it's an apples-to-apples comparison - nor is it a definitive statement - but williams has 30 career sacks to johnson's 33 career TDs - in three fewer seasons. again, i just can't ignore that. as much as i think the offense would suffer without johnson, i think the defense would absolutely collapse without williams. i could probably even be talked into slaton being more valuable than johnson - but that gets into the yin-and-yang of why it's silly to assign impact to individual football players.
Big Shot Rob
08-13-2009, 05:01 PM
The Big Puma, followed by Andre and Yao.
Mr. Clutch
08-13-2009, 05:03 PM
i like andre johnson; i really do. sincerely. great, great football player. but.... he's averaged 5.5 TDs/year in his career. he's never hit double-digits. ever. not once. it's even more egregious when you consider he's thrown to as much as, if not more than, any other WR in the league. and to not have broken 10 is just... it can't be ignored.
schaub rates ahead of him by virtue of position; this team is built around an effective QB. i'd rate mario williams ahead of him, too. not that it's an apples-to-apples comparison - nor is it a definitive statement - but williams has 30 career sacks to johnson's 33 career TDs - in three fewer seasons. again, i just can't ignore that. as much as i think the offense would suffer without johnson, i think the defense would absolutely collapse without williams. i could probably even be talked into slaton being more valuable than johnson - but that gets into the yin-and-yang of why it's silly to assign impact to individual football players.
But let's remember that he's had the likes of David Carr and Sage Rosenfels throwing to him.
In 2007-08, he had 8 tds in 9 games. So he was certainly on pace there.
To me, Slaton would be more easily replaced. How high do you think the Texans offense would be ranked without AJ? Certainly not 3rd.
rezdawg
08-13-2009, 05:36 PM
I'll go with Andre Johnson as the MVP of Houston sports right now.
If we are talking about who has been over the last decade, I choose Berkman/Oswalt.
However, right now, Andre is arguably a top 2 or, at the least, a top 3 WR in the NFL. I think OD and KW owe a lot of their success to Andre. I also think AJ's play last season contributed plenty to the success of the running game.
Sure, he doesnt have the TD numbers, but thats like discrediting a pitcher for not getting wins. You have to look at the whole package and no receiver in the NFL moved the chains last season like Johnson did.
2007 season: 6-3 with AJ in the lineup...2-5 without him.
2008 season: In games where AJ caught for 75 yards or more, 7-2 (one of the losses was with Rosencopter doing his thing). We had a record of 1-6 when he had less than that.
If these stats dont tell you that we need him in the lineup and we need to get him the ball to be successful, then I dont know what will. He is clearly the MVP of Houston sports right now. Without him and his production, the Texans have no playoff hopes.
thacabbage
08-13-2009, 06:19 PM
How in the hell is Yao Ming leading this poll? The team made the playoffs twice with him missing significant portions of the season.
Air Langhi
08-13-2009, 06:30 PM
I'll go with Andre Johnson as the MVP of Houston sports right now.
If we are talking about who has been over the last decade, I choose Berkman/Oswalt.
However, right now, Andre is arguably a top 2 or, at the least, a top 3 WR in the NFL. I think OD and KW owe a lot of their success to Andre. I also think AJ's play last season contributed plenty to the success of the running game.
Sure, he doesnt have the TD numbers, but thats like discrediting a pitcher for not getting wins. You have to look at the whole package and no receiver in the NFL moved the chains last season like Johnson did.
2007 season: 6-3 with AJ in the lineup...2-5 without him.
2008 season: In games where AJ caught for 75 yards or more, 7-2 (one of the losses was with Rosencopter doing his thing). We had a record of 1-6 when he had less than that.
If these stats dont tell you that we need him in the lineup and we need to get him the ball to be successful, then I dont know what will. He is clearly the MVP of Houston sports right now. Without him and his production, the Texans have no playoff hopes.
The 2-5 stretch was against very tough teams. I don't think WR can impact the a QB can.
rezdawg
08-13-2009, 06:37 PM
I don't think WR can impact the a QB can.
I dont either, but Schaub is not the current MVP of the city...if he stays on the field and puts up sick numbers, then I would make vote for him. He still has a lot to prove, AJ on the other hand, does not.
BlackHalo
08-13-2009, 06:41 PM
How in the hell is Yao Ming leading this poll? The team made the playoffs twice with him missing significant portions of the season.
my thoughts exactly.
But let's remember that he's had the likes of David Carr and Sage Rosenfels throwing to him.
tony gonzalez had more TDs last year - who was his QB? so, too, did lance moore, whoever that is. calvin johnson had 4 more with the texans' likely #2 qb this year throwing to him. hell, kevin walter had as many TDs as andre.
of course it's not all his fault. and yes, he was setting a blistering pace in 2007. still, he caught 213 passes in '06 and '08 but just 13 TDs - that's... well, terrible. he career YPC average is 13.1. that's marvin harrison territory (13.2). consider these contemporaries: moss (15.7); owens (14.8); holt and ocho (14.6); s. smith (14.4); wayne (14.1); fitzgerald (14.0).
i think he's a great possession receiver; i'm not convinced he's a gamebreaker; at least, not a consistent one. and thus, i think that's easier to replace, statistically. obviously, he draws attention and forces the defense, etc. - he not NOT invaluable. but with daniels' and walter's emergence, if slaton is the real deal, if schaub is healthy - i think they'd absorb his loss easier than fans think.
Sure, he doesnt have the TD numbers, but thats like discrediting a pitcher for not getting wins.
not really. it's not entirely his fault - but it can't be discounted. if you're able to get separation, break tackles, outrun the defense... you have more control over scoring TDs than a pitcher does over wins.
Without him and his production, the Texans have no playoff hopes.
they're certainly not a *better* team - but i wouldn't discount their chances entirely, either.
rezdawg
08-13-2009, 07:46 PM
Ric, I think you are too hung up on the TD issue...yes, more TDs is a good thing, but that is also just one of many things that you would use to assess the impact of a WR.
As a whole, the Texans are incredibly inefficient in the red zone. Poor play calling, multiple mistakes, etc...that just leads to very few opportunities for AJ.
Steve Smith is one of the biggest studs at WR...21 TDs over the last 3 seasons. AJ has the same number, but in 2 fewer games. Steve Smith also had 18.3 yards per catch last season (a stat that you find incredibly important), but that obviously didnt translate to many points given his 6 TDs last year.
Then you have a guy like Lance Moore, who gets his TDs, not because he is a game changer, but because he is in an incredibly efficient offense that produces when it gets into the red zone. This situation is more of a "right time, right place".
So yes, TDs are important...as is YPC, but you have to look at the individual player and how much they are asked to do within their offense. AJ might not have a high YPC, but that is also because there are many times in a game where we just need 5 yards to get that 1st down.
You want long receptions? How about the fact that Andre Johnson caught 20 balls last year for 20+ yards? Tied with Larry Fitz. Who were the leaders?
Steve Smith - 23
Greg Jennings - 21
Calvin Johnson - 21
As you can see, AJ might not have the ypc average that you would like, but he stretches the field as much as any player in the league. He does it ALL.
Not only did we air it out to him as much as we did, but he also led the NFL with receptions for 1st downs (79). Second place? 67 catches. Not even close.
How you could not consider AJ a game changer is beyond me. Yes, he is a great possession receiver...but he is also much more than that.
rezdawg
08-13-2009, 08:22 PM
they're certainly not a *better* team - but i wouldn't discount their chances entirely, either.
We have never, in the history of the Texans, proven we can win consistently without AJ in the lineup or without AJ putting up 75+ yards per game.
I showed statistics on this already.
Yes, I do believe we are a better team this year, but again, we havent shown any flashes of greatness without AJ, ever...and Im hard pressed to believe that we could be competitive next season without AJ in the lineup.
PointForward
08-13-2009, 09:12 PM
can't believe AJ wasn't a choice..
BLASPHEMY!
Mr. Clutch
08-13-2009, 09:25 PM
tony gonzalez had more TDs last year - who was his QB? so, too, did lance moore, whoever that is. calvin johnson had 4 more with the texans' likely #2 qb this year throwing to him. hell, kevin walter had as many TDs as andre.
of course it's not all his fault. and yes, he was setting a blistering pace in 2007. still, he caught 213 passes in '06 and '08 but just 13 TDs - that's... well, terrible. he career YPC average is 13.1. that's marvin harrison territory (13.2). consider these contemporaries: moss (15.7); owens (14.8); holt and ocho (14.6); s. smith (14.4); wayne (14.1); fitzgerald (14.0).
i think he's a great possession receiver; i'm not convinced he's a gamebreaker; at least, not a consistent one. and thus, i think that's easier to replace, statistically. obviously, he draws attention and forces the defense, etc. - he not NOT invaluable. but with daniels' and walter's emergence, if slaton is the real deal, if schaub is healthy - i think they'd absorb his loss easier than fans think.
You can always find statistical anomalies. Great, Gonzalez had 10 tds last year, but the 4 years before that he had 7, 2, 5, and 5. His QB was Tyler Thigpen, who had a better year than David Carr or Sag Rosenfels ever had.
Anquan Boldin and Steve Smith (like rezdawg ponited out) are considered top WRs, but their TD numbers are not better. Steve Smith is definitely a gamebreaker despite the TD numbers, no?
Interestingly enough, Steve Smith had problems with Carr as QB and didn't get many long receptions when Carr was QB.
I think we'll see AJ break 10 tds as long as Schaub stays healthy.
can't believe AJ wasn't a choice..
BLASPHEMY!
I think at this point we can safely assume "other" votes are all for AJ. Again, sorry for the oversight. Maybe a mod can change the poll or something.
dcalvo
08-13-2009, 11:33 PM
The Rockets had missed the playoffs three years running before Yao was drafted and since then we have made the playoffs every year that he played most of the season except for his rookie year. If you don't think he was the reason for that improvement go back and look at some of the rosters for some of those teams that made the playoffs. On top of that he was the biggest reason we beat Portland this year since their adjustments to double him allowed other players to go off offensively.
Canadiandude
08-13-2009, 11:56 PM
i like andre johnson; i really do. sincerely. great, great football player. but.... he's averaged 5.5 TDs/year in his career. he's never hit double-digits. ever. not once. it's even more egregious when you consider he's thrown to as much as, if not more than, any other WR in the league. and to not have broken 10 is just... it can't be ignored.
schaub rates ahead of him by virtue of position; this team is built around an effective QB. i'd rate mario williams ahead of him, too. not that it's an apples-to-apples comparison - nor is it a definitive statement - but williams has 30 career sacks to johnson's 33 career TDs - in three fewer seasons. again, i just can't ignore that. as much as i think the offense would suffer without johnson, i think the defense would absolutely collapse without williams. i could probably even be talked into slaton being more valuable than johnson - but that gets into the yin-and-yang of why it's silly to assign impact to individual football players.
Picking from a mediocre sports era in Houston, I picked Mario Williams as well. He's been consistently dominant sans his rookie year. He's been healthy: a huge plus in Houston sports. He doesn't just rack up the pretty sacks stat, he's great against the run. There isn't a whole lot more you can ask a dominant DL to do.
ima_drummer2k
08-14-2009, 07:12 AM
a healthy yao ming
:confused:
Joe Joe
08-14-2009, 07:43 AM
Mario Williams. Since the Texans moved to the 4-3, he's the only one getting any pressure on QB. As porous as the run defense has been, it has not been bad to his side. Just imagine out secondary trying to cover for 10 seconds
Legend Killer
08-14-2009, 08:01 AM
I would say Roy is the MVP. He led his team to the WS in one of the most clutch performances in MLB history. After a defeat like the one the Astros were coming off, to go into hostile territory and dominate the opposition was simply amazing. He continues to be one of the best pitchers in baseball, playing in one of the worst pitcher's park in baseball.
Why the hell are Yao Ming and Matt Schaub on the list? Those guys are always injured. Too injury prone to be considered an MVP of anything. They have no playoff success and always crumble under pressure. If you're going to throw these guys into the discussion, then its an insult that you dont have Andre Johnson, Mario Williams, and T-Mac on the list.
Yao Ming being in the lead, is a joke and an embarrassment. How any one can consider him the MVP of Houston is beyond me.
K mf G
08-14-2009, 08:12 AM
God forbid you include teammates into it. Berkman has only been a part of 2 losing seasons in his career, and he has been the best offensive player that entire time, even helping to lead his team to a World Series. He was a dominate offensive force in 2004 & 2005 during the playoff runs.
Pre-Berkman Astros: 6 playoff apperances, but 0 series wins. 40 years.
Don't disrespect what Berkman has accomplished.
i dont forget what he has done
and yes they are all team games
berkman's 2005 season was to me his most amazing season
and the season in which he made the most impact offensively in only 132 games
in 2004/2005 post season berkman mashed no doubt
but dont forget about 2001
so dont think they won solely because berkman was part of the line up
now lets talk about what has happened since 2005
while having great offensive seasons, the team has not accomplished anything
i think lance berkman is a great player
in terms of mvp i think yao ranks higher
K mf G
08-14-2009, 08:23 AM
wow... this is quite possibly the silliest, most ill-informed statement ever posted in this forum that did not include the words, "vince" or "young."
2004 biggio, bagwell, beltran, berkman, clemens, pettitte (all though injured), oswalt, kent
2005 biggio, clemens, berkman, pettitte,
now i would agree with the fact that in 2005 berkman lead the offense
but we all know it was the pitching that took us to the world series
so who do you think lead those teams?
K mf G
08-14-2009, 08:30 AM
Sorry, you don't get that choice. You get Yao Ming, period. Yao Ming took the Rockets into the second round of the playoffs for the first time in like ever. Then he broke. Again.
So how far can Yao Ming carry the Rockets? Up to his next fracture--that's how far.
Which, for this coming season, isn't even as far as the starting line.
MVP my ass.
i dont disagree with the injury premise
but like i said what a healthy yao ming can do
but individual results to me should be measured by team success
just like i think it's bogus for giving alex rodriguez the mvp when his team finishes last
juicystream
08-14-2009, 08:35 AM
i dont forget what he has done
and yes they are all team games
berkman's 2005 season was to me his most amazing season
and the season in which he made the most impact offensively in only 132 games
in 2004/2005 post season berkman mashed no doubt
but dont forget about 2001
so dont think they won solely because berkman was part of the line up
now lets talk about what has happened since 2005
while having great offensive seasons, the team has not accomplished anything
i think lance berkman is a great player
in terms of mvp i think yao ranks higher
If you think about it, if the MLB had the same playoff system as the NBA, the Astros would have been a playoff team every year except his rookie year and 2007. I think too many people are faulting him too much for the sport he plays. These last couple of weeks watching other people fill in for Berkman has been brutal to watch. Just look at his OPS. He has a .943, and the next guy on the team is Lee with a .877. And that is with the awful start to the season Berkman had.
so who do you think lead those teams?
playoffs included, berkman was - and it's not even really close - the best offensive player on those two teams.
juicystream
08-14-2009, 08:44 AM
2004 biggio, bagwell, beltran, berkman, clemens, pettitte (all though injured), oswalt, kent
2005 biggio, clemens, berkman, pettitte,
now i would agree with the fact that in 2005 berkman lead the offense
but we all know it was the pitching that took us to the world series
so who do you think lead those teams?
2004: Berkman
2005: Berkman
To even mention Kent, Biggio, Bagwell, Pettitte, & Beltran for 2004 is just wrong. Beltran ended up being huge for us down the stretch and in the playoffs, but so was Berkman, and he was on the team the whole year. Backe came up huge for us to down the stretch and in the playoffs, but I'm not going to call him MVP.
rockets934life
08-14-2009, 08:50 AM
2004: Berkman
2005: Berkman
To even mention Kent, Biggio, Bagwell, Pettitte, & Beltran for 2004 is just wrong. Beltran ended up being huge for us down the stretch and in the playoffs, but so was Berkman, and he was on the team the whole year. Backe came up huge for us to down the stretch and in the playoffs, but I'm not going to call him MVP.
Agree with your point...everyone remembers Beltran's October explosion but no one remembers that in September of 04 Beltran hit under .200 or maybe just above it with limited power while Puma was essential in the comeback!
K mf G
08-14-2009, 08:52 AM
i dont disagree with the fact that berkamn played huge roles in those years, my argument is look what he had around him offensively in 2004
and in 2005 look at that pitching, lidge had an awesome stretch up til the pujols blast
but if we are talking most valuable player
i just think yao edges puma
and if you want to say that yao's injury should expempt him from the list
i have no problem with that,
K mf G
08-14-2009, 08:56 AM
playoffs included, berkman was - and it's not even really close - the best offensive player on those two teams.
but in my opinion the picthing lead the teams
especially in 2005
and if you want to say that yao's constant injuries should expempt him from the list
i have no problem with that,
fixed, and thank you.
Regular season and first round 2008-2009: Yao is unquestionably without-a-doubt the Rox MVP. A pleasure to watch. Of course, then he broke. Again.
Regular season 2009-2010: Yao is unquestionably without-a-doubt the Rox Most Worthless Player. Biggest price tag for precisely zero production. He is a black hole albatross, like Bagwell (arguably the Astros' greatest player in their history) in his last season. Or like Me-Mac, the other Rox black hole.
K mf G
08-14-2009, 09:02 AM
yes i know constant injuries
so many ifs
i think my frustarations with berkman extend from the team's lack of success
since 2005, i think it is hard to measure how much impact on a team an elite player should have, the line up this year is better than it has been for a while now, and the astros record sucks
so that takes me back to the whole how valuable can a player be to a losing team argument
juicystream
08-14-2009, 09:04 AM
Agree with your point...everyone remembers Beltran's October explosion but no one remembers that in September of 04 Beltran hit under .200 or maybe just above it with limited power while Puma was essential in the comeback!
I went and looked it up, and Beltran was a little bit better than your implying(.258avg), but the premise is correct. He only hit 2HR over the final month of the season. Berkman though got after July, and had the better August & September. Berkman is a player that deserves a whole lot more attention then he gets. It actually reminds me of Carlos Delgado when he played for the Blue Jays in how he put up amazing numbers, but watching ESPN you wouldn't notice(funny how that changed once he was with the Mets).
rockets934life
08-14-2009, 09:12 AM
I went and looked it up, and Beltran was a little bit better than your implying(.258avg), but the premise is correct. He only hit 2HR over the final month of the season. Berkman though got after July, and had the better August & September. Berkman is a player that deserves a whole lot more attention then he gets. It actually reminds me of Carlos Delgado when he played for the Blue Jays in how he put up amazing numbers, but watching ESPN you wouldn't notice(funny how that changed once he was with the Mets).
Yea I wasn't sure on the avg but I knew his overall contribution wasn't as great as people remember...Berkman is a difference maker in the lineup and in my opinion streakly speaking Astros he is the most valuable player because without him the lineup is very pederstrian.
juicystream
08-14-2009, 09:13 AM
Regular season and first round 2008-2009: Yao is unquestionably without-a-doubt the Rox MVP. A pleasure to watch. Of course, then he broke. Again.
Regular season 2009-2010: Yao is unquestionably without-a-doubt the Rox Most Worthless Player. Biggest price tag for precisely zero production. He is a black hole albatross, like Bagwell (arguably the Astros' greatest player in their history) in his last season. Or like Me-Mac, the other Rox black hole.
This answer is about the same:
TMac! :D
I said it as a joke, but a healthy and motivated T-Mac was our best player. Yao can be taken out of games, but T-Mac in those first couple of years in Houston he was amazing. A moping, injured T-Mac(last years version) is LVP.
rockets934life
08-14-2009, 09:13 AM
Yea I wasn't sure on the avg but I knew his overall contribution wasn't as great as people remember...Berkman is a difference maker in the lineup and in my opinion strictly speaking Astros he is the most valuable player because without him the lineup is very pederstrian.
Corrected Sorry
but in my opinion the picthing lead the teams
especially in 2005
pitching is half the game; you have to score runs, too. he was far and away the best offensive player on those two teams, second fiddle to no one.
Artesticles
08-14-2009, 09:39 AM
http://images.chron.com/blogs/fanblogtexans/14%20williams%20drafted.jpg
I love Andre Johnson and he's one of the best WR's in the game, but I can't ever put WR and MVP in the same sentence. Bottom line is even when he was out, we had other capable receivers that could step their game up (Walter, Davis, Daniels, Anderson). They did not match his production, but they were solid.
On the other hand, if Mario goes down, who replaces him? Our D-line would suffer incredibly, and it wasn't exactly awesome to begin with.
I have the mentality of football games being won in the trenches, so as much as I love AJ, I just can't say he's the most valuable player on the Texans as good as he is, when a guy like Mario would be much harder to replace than AJ.
appreciate the discussion, rezdawg - keep it comin'!:
Ric, I think you are too hung up on the TD issue...
how can i be too hung up on the very basic point of the entire game? LOL. it’s not about catching more passes than your opponent (thought that’s certainly not UNimportant); it’s about outscoring them.
As you can see, AJ might not have the ypc average that you would like, but he stretches the field as much as any player in the league. He does it ALL.
except… you know - score TDs. :)
How you could not consider AJ a game changer is beyond me. Yes, he is a great possession receiver...but he is also much more than that.
the issue is value. andre johnson is absolutely a weapon; defenses unquestionably game plan for him and that attention undoubtedly helps open up the offense. he is definitely valuable; i would never argue otherwise. but MOST valuable……?
look, i like, Like, LIKE andre johnson. i hesitate to have these discussions because i don’t want to portray myself as anything other than a big fan of his. he shows up every week, plays hard, makes tough catches – i love the guy.
but do i think the offense would fall into a crevice without him? no, i don’t. do i think we could easily replace his 5.5 TDs/year? yeah, i do. i think walter/davis could match the TD output of johnson/walter (16 last year). that doesn’t mean that combination is AS good, certainly not better; i just don’t think the drop-off is that steep.
if he were breaking tackles and outrunning defenses and consistently, single-handedly changing the course of football games while scoring 10-12 TDs a year…. that’s hard to replace. finding players who catch oodles of passes and rack up yards, otoh… that’s a little easier to find. not easy – easier.
…but again, we havent shown any flashes of greatness without AJ, ever...and Im hard pressed to believe that we could be competitive next season without AJ in the lineup.
winning percentage without andre johnson: .40 (2-5)
winning percentage *with* andre johnson: .37 (34-58)
i’m not by any stretch of the imagination intimating we’re *worse* with johnson; just dispelling this notion we’re appreciably worse without him. granted, and fortunately, it’s a small sample size, but we’re winning games at roughly the same pace.
we’re obviously a better team with him; that’s true of any and all of our good players. the question is whether we could win without him – i think they could, assuming health elsewhere across the board.
good stuff, Mr. Clutch; enjoying the discussion...
His QB was Tyler Thigpen, who had a better year than David Carr or Sag Rosenfels ever had.
no. nope. no, no, no - he didn’t. thigpen posted a 76 qb rating last season. in his two seasons here, rosenfels posted an 84.8 and 79.5. carr played with johnson five seasons, awful in year one and five – but in between, he posted ratings of 83.5, 77.2 and 82.1 – all better than thigpen’s season last year.
i don’t want to get caught up in the minutiae of this; but that statement was categorically untrue.
Anquan Boldin and Steve Smith (like rezdawg ponited out) are considered top WRs, but their TD numbers are not better. Steve Smith is definitely a gamebreaker despite the TD numbers, no?
dude…. boldin scored 11 TDs last year: he missed 4 games and, oh yeah – he’s the team’s #2 receiver! come on, man! THAT’s who you’re comparing andre johnson to – a team’s second-best receiver?
you look at the truly elite WRs of this era, and in TDs and YPC, johnson trails fairly significantly. which is not to say he isn’t a great WR; he is. but in terms of value, a wes welker is easier to find than a randy moss. IMO, of course.
appreciate the discussion, rezdawg - keep it comin'!:
good stuff, Mr. Clutch; enjoying the discussion...
Nice to finally be able to talk football again, ain't it?
Even nicer to talk about the local team when:
-- the team isn't fresh off a losing or underachieving season
-- the team hasn't done something remarkably stupid over the winter (harkening back a few years with that one)
-- talk about david carr, vince young, or reggie bush is now entirely irrelevant and off the radar.
Sweet.
ghettocheeze
08-14-2009, 11:54 AM
Dwayne De Rosario
http://www.soccershopusa.com/Images_Products/Hosuton%20Dynamo%20Dwayne%20De%20Rosario%20Poster.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/greg_lalas/11/19/mls.cuo/p1_dero_1119.jpg
Let me begin by saying this, to me winning is everything and finishing runner-up is the same as finishing last or in some cases same as getting swept in the World Series (Astros Losers :D).
Now back to Dwayne,
The rap sheet:
2001 MLS cup MVP - kicked the game winning goal for the San Jose Earthquakes (former name of the Dynamo).
2006 MLS Cup - Converted a crucial penalty kick to help the Dynamo win their first MLS Cup after relocating to Houston.
2007 MLS cup MVP - kicked the game winning goal for the Dynamo against New England Revolution giving them Back-Two-Back Championships. Only player in MLS history to score two game winning goals in the MLS Cup Final.
Individual Honors:
MLS Cup MVP: 2001, 2007
MLS Goal of the Year: 2004, 2005
Major League Soccer Best XI: 2005, 2006, 2007
George Gross Memorial Trophy: 2009
Canadian Player of the Year: 2005, 2006, 2007
The Voyageurs International Player of the Year:
Second place: 2007
Third place: 2006
Now beat that resume.
Too bad we traded him last December to Toronto for Julius James and cash. :(
Joe Joe
08-14-2009, 12:52 PM
winning percentage without andre johnson: .40 (2-5)
winning percentage *with* andre johnson: .37 (34-58)
Using the records you provided, I get
winning percentage without andre johnson: .29 (2-5)
winning percentage *with* andre johnson: .37 (34-58)
Using the records I get from ESPN's game logs for AJ, I get
winning percentage without andre johnson: .27 (3-8)
winning percentage *with* andre johnson: .39 (33-52)
Granted these numbers are not very valid as the NFL plays so few games, AJ has many seasons when he played all 16 games, and the team has changed so much each season. Really the only data that doesn't completely suck for with/without analysis would be 2007 where AJ played 9 and missed 7.
winning percentage without andre johnson: .29 (2-5)
winning percentage *with* andre johnson: .67 (6-3)
All these numbers tell me that AJ is important to the Texans, but I don't think they are good enough to quantify how important he is.
conquistador#11
08-14-2009, 12:54 PM
I don't know. I can't decide. It's like comparing avocados and diet dr. pepper.
All play different sports that require a different set of skills. It's already pretty difficult selecting one mvp for one sport. =(
Anyways.. I pick Berkman and yao ming as co mvps of Houston, and give them the key to spring branch.
winning percentage without andre johnson: .29 (2-5)
d'oh! you're right. but my point was intended to be much broader: they lose with or without him. i didn't intend to quibble over percentage points (especially since i'm obviously incapable of correctly calculating them).
Really the only data that doesn't completely suck for with/without analysis would be 2007 where AJ played 9 and missed 7.
sure - but this gets into why this is such an empty (but fun!) excercise: too much context in a sport that's completely team-driven. which leads to: minutiae!!
three of those five losses without him were by sizeable margins - 37-17; 38-36 (tennessee actually led at one point 32-7 in the 4Q); and 35-10. with him, without him - they almost certainly lose all 3 of those games.
the fourth loss was to indianapolis. the score wound up being close (30-24) but it really wasn't close - the colts led 27-10 after the 3Q. he may have had an impact on that game - tough to tell. the offense sputtered that day fo sho. but he's not a 2 TD/game guy; he's barely a TD/game guy. and obviously, dynamics change with him in there, so who knows - i'm just pointing out they were thoroughly thrashed certainly in those 3 games and i doubt he makes up the difference.
the only game he almost certainly would have swung was the loss to atlanta - though, honestly, they should have been able to beat atlanta without him so maybe they lose that regardless.
POINT BEING...... they didn't go 2-5 simply because andre johnson was out of the line-up.
Joe Joe
08-14-2009, 03:23 PM
POINT BEING...... they didn't go 2-5 simply because andre johnson was out of the line-up.
The what if game. It is easy to say the Texans don't win those games if you don't think AJ is an elite player. It is easy to say the Texans were much better with him and without. I think the Texans easily win one of those five losses and possibly two are a serious playoff contenders the rest of the season.
Fyreball
08-14-2009, 03:35 PM
Absolutely gotta be Andre Johnson for me. Yao is a VERY close second, but the team has had to get by without him so often that I feel like the players are almost expecting it now. Aside from the injury AJ got 2 years ago, he's been as steady as they come. I think this year, Johnson is going to further separate himself from the rest of the pack and truly establish himself as the best receiver in the NFL.
Yao is a VERY close second, but the team has had to get by without him so often that I feel like the players are almost expecting it now.
So, he's value but expendable? Really, he can be both??
Yao Ming is the sexy, sleek candy-appled red camaro your older brother got when he graduated and said you could use it whenever you need it. SWEEEEET! And every time you reach for the keys, you can't have it.
juicystream
08-14-2009, 05:28 PM
So, he's value but expendable? Really, he can be both??
Yao Ming is the sexy, sleek candy-appled red camaro your older brother got when he graduated and said you could use it whenever you need it. SWEEEEET! And every time you reach for the keys, you can't have it.
Tim Duncan = Toyota Camry(Reliable, consistent, and boring). :D
juicystream
08-14-2009, 06:22 PM
At least we have a winning team without Yao(skip ahead to 2:20):
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Prior to this season the Rockets were 20-46 without TMac
TheFreak
08-14-2009, 10:49 PM
How in the hell is Yao Ming leading this poll? The team made the playoffs twice with him missing significant portions of the season.
Well he's the MVP of the Rockets, and one player can make more of an impact in basketball than the other major sports. He is the logical choice.
rezdawg
08-14-2009, 11:28 PM
Well he's the MVP of the Rockets, and one player can make more of an impact in basketball than the other major sports. He is the logical choice.
Yes, one player can make more of an impact in basketball than any other sport, but given the fact that the Rockets have won nearly 54% of the games he has not played in (which is a fairly large sample size), I just dont see how he is that valuable. Yes, he is one of the best centers in the NBA, but at the same time, the style of play changes for the Rockets when Yao is out...and many times, that style of play is better suited for the players we have built around Yao.
Sorry, but Yao cant possibly be the most valuable player when his team wins so often without him and while he has failed to play as often as he has. There is no logic in choosing Yao for MVP of Houston.
rezdawg
08-14-2009, 11:31 PM
Ric, youre actually throwing in the Texans records pre-kubiak, when debating Andre's value? Come now, thats silly...we had a practice squad team competing every day.
Look, over the last 2 seasons, there is really no debating Andres impact. Look at the games in which he receives for 75 or more yards...that should make it clear to you that if we want to win football games, we need to get AJ involved.
If you arent calling AJ a game breaking WR, I'd like to know who, currently, in the NFL should be considered a game breaker? Im not trying to call you out or anything, Im just really curious.
conquistador#11
08-14-2009, 11:49 PM
I think ric once called andre a posession receiver. :p
Well he's the MVP of the Rockets.
No, he's not. He was the MVP last season.
What is Yao to the Rockets RIGHT NOW?
Most.
WORTHLESS.
Player.
...again.
DoubleRods
08-15-2009, 05:36 PM
The fact that Andre Johnson is not a selection in this poll is an utter travesty.
Rocketfanatic2
08-15-2009, 08:40 PM
Where is Andre Johnson? He in my opinion is the best WR in the NFL, and has led the Texans to success in past years, along with Schaub. For me, he is the MVP of Houston sports.
I think ric once called andre a posession receiver. :p
i did indeed; in fact, flip back a few pages. if you're racking up a ton of catches but not scoring TDs or registering a paticualrly high YPC... what else are you? it's not a dig by any means.
he's a tremendous possession receiver.
rezdawg, let me put it to you this way: if matt schaub completed 65% of his passes; if he threw for 4,000 yards; if he threw fewer than 10 INTs... but only had 5 TD passes - how would you rate his season? it's a great season - he moved the team efficiently, didn't turn it over.... but the lack of TD passes would be glaring, wouldn't it? it wouldn't be all his fault; maybe slaton racked up a ton; maybe they spent an inordinate amount of time inside the opponents' 5-yard line.... still, 5?
why is it no different for johnson? he's never, ever, not once broken double-digit TDs. this despite catching 103 and 115 passes in '06 and '08. heck, he's averaging 85/year for his career ('07 excluded) and yet...
it doesn't make him a *bad* receiver by any means but i don't think you can dismiss it when evaluating him. and in terms of "value" - which is the point of the thread, right? - 5.5 TDs/year is easy to replace. sorry, it just is.
current game breakers: moss, fitzgerald, obviously... on the downside, sure - but terrell owens is up there. younger, up-and-coming gamebreakers: calvin johnson, greg jennings. burress, before he shot himself, was a gamebreaker.
those are off the top of my head. look at their recent #s and compare them to johnson; two things are likely to jump out: TDs and YPC.
texanskan
08-17-2009, 09:42 AM
i did indeed; in fact, flip back a few pages. if you're racking up a ton of catches but not scoring TDs or registering a paticualrly high YPC... what else are you? it's not a dig by any means.
he's a tremendous possession receiver.
rezdawg, let me put it to you this way: if matt schaub completed 65% of his passes; if he threw for 4,000 yards; if he threw fewer than 10 INTs... but only had 5 TD passes - how would you rate his season? it's a great season - he moved the team efficiently, didn't turn it over.... but the lack of TD passes would be glaring, wouldn't it? it wouldn't be all his fault; maybe slaton racked up a ton; maybe they spent an inordinate amount of time inside the opponents' 5-yard line.... still, 5?
why is it no different for johnson? he's never, ever, not once broken double-digit TDs. this despite catching 103 and 115 passes in '06 and '08. heck, he's averaging 85/year for his career ('07 excluded) and yet...
it doesn't make him a *bad* receiver by any means but i don't think you can dismiss it when evaluating him. and in terms of "value" - which is the point of the thread, right? - 5.5 TDs/year is easy to replace. sorry, it just is.
current game breakers: moss, fitzgerald, obviously... on the downside, sure - but terrell owens is up there. younger, up-and-coming gamebreakers: calvin johnson, greg jennings. burress, before he shot himself, was a gamebreaker.
those are off the top of my head. look at their recent #s and compare them to johnson; two things are likely to jump out: TDs and YPC.
Possession receivers do not lead the NFL in yards
MadMax
08-17-2009, 09:45 AM
Possession receivers do not lead the NFL in yards
I don't know that I'd call AJ a possession receiver...
but Steve Largent led the league in yards 2x in his career. i know Haywood Jeffires did once, as well. i'd call both of those guys possession receivers.
Possession receivers do not lead the NFL in yards
he caught 115 passes! if he simply fell down after every catch he'd be among the league leaders. wes welker averaged nearly 3 fewer yards a catch and finished 9th overall in receiving yards because he had 111 receptions.
johnson was 20th in YPC among receivers with at least 48 catches last year.
Fyreball
08-17-2009, 09:52 AM
Andre Johnson's lack of TDs
I agree with you here that for a receiver that amasses such gaudy numbers, his TDs are inordinately low, and I think there are a few different reasons for it. To me, the most glaring and obvious reason is that Andre is by far the most dangerous weapon we have, and since the field is drastically smaller in the red zone, defenses are able to key in on him easier, and that negates his ability to get separation. When you have the safety AND DB on you in a short field situation, it's pretty much impossible to gain any significant amount of space. Also, those other receivers have something AJ unfortunately does not have, and that's break-away speed. Johnson is a lot of great things, but one thing he's not is blazing fast. He has a great ability to catch the ball in small spaces, and he's got iron-clad hands, but he's never been the type of receiver to streak down the field and beat a DB step-for-step. Don't get me wrong, he's gotten his fair share of long completions, but those are due mainly to his route-running, and defensive lapses.....not his speed. And, to me, another major reason for his low TD numbers is simply the fact that the Texans have never really been an efficient red zone team. It's pure and simple. The more touchdowns you score as a team, the more likely your star players are going to have better red zone numbers.
juicystream
08-17-2009, 10:21 AM
I don't think AJ is a possession receiver. He certainly has the ability to burn people down the field. His YPC are probably lower due the team focusing on getting the ball in his hands as often as possible, and therefore they run a lot more short to intermediate routes for him. It is just the nature of the offense. The guy was a track star in college, so you know he has that kind of speed.
rezdawg
08-17-2009, 06:46 PM
Like I mentioned, Andre is among the top in receptions of 20+ yards...therefore, stretching the field is something that AJ can boast about, with the best of them.
Yes, his YPC isnt high, but thats because he plays so many different roles as a receiver, more so than almost every WR in the NFL.
Out of Terrell Owens, Greg Jennings, Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss...none of them were leaned on as heavily as AJ. The closest any of them came to Andre's receptions is 35! (Greg Jennings)
Yes, Andre caught so many balls because he is a possession receiver, but if Greg Jennings was asked to play so many roles as a receiver and catch as many balls in different situations as Andre, there is no way he could keep up his YPC. Jennings had exactly 1 more catch of 20+ yards than Andre and exactly 1 more TD. I dont see how he is any more of a game breaker than AJ. On the flip side, AJ caught 35 more balls. +1 for AJ.
In the last 5 years, not one NFL WR had as many receiving yards as AJ had last season. It doesnt matter how you got there, but I dont see how someone who amasses so many yards isnt considered a game changer.
Getting TDs is, many times, a product of the offense...not of the individual. There are many instances where a very average WR gets double digit touchdowns and there are other times where a game changer like Plaxico gets single digit touchdowns (6 seasons, excluding last season).
Heck, Torry Holt, who has been one of the most productive WR over the last decade and had a chance to play in an offense that was the "greatest show on earth"...he had averaged 7.4 TDs per season. Why? Because his teams had enough talent where the TDs were spread around. I wouldnt call Holt a possession receiver either because he did average almost 15 ypc over that span. Isaac Bruce had even a higher YPC during his Rams days...but averaged just over 6.2 TDs per season.
TDs or YPC from a WR dont necessarily equate to game breaker. It all depends on what role you are playing, the players involved in the offense, the efficiency of the offense, etc... Too much goes into it to just look at a couple stats and conclude, "game changer".
Its one thing to say that Andre is a possession receiver, but one of the top 3 players in the NFL...but its another thing to say he isnt a game changer. He changes the game plenty.
Vinsanity
08-17-2009, 07:56 PM
Yao (unfortunately), and I don't think it's that close.
That's not to say he's the best player in Houston sports -- that would certainly go to Lance or Andre -- but when it comes to valuable, one star means far more to a basketball team than to baseball or football. It's just the nature of the sport.
There is no way you can say this when we won 22 in a row pretty much without him and still made the playoffs in one of the toughest western confrences in league history. Andre Johnson gets my vote. The rockets have proven that they can win without Tmac and can win without Yao.
Artesticles
08-17-2009, 10:53 PM
There is no way you can say this when we won 22 in a row pretty much without him and still made the playoffs in one of the toughest western confrences in league history. Andre Johnson gets my vote. The rockets have proven that they can win without Tmac and can win without Yao.
The Rockets will prove this year just how (un)valuable Yao is to the team, and that his overall net production to the team isn't as good as people think it is.
I'll say it again. I love Dre, but we can still be a top 10 offensive team without him with the other weapons we have to take his place. Andre Davis was awesome in his place. Take away Mario though, and you have a huge hole in your D-line.
roxfan4life00
08-18-2009, 11:38 AM
Any Astros player on the Houston MVP poll is a joke. They are by far the worst professional team in Houston and will remain the worst professional team in Houston for many more years. The only player from the Astros that I would consider a MVP of Houston would be Roger Clemens because we made it to the World Series with him in the pitching rotation. My pick for Houston MVP is Andre Johnson or Chester Pitts.
rezdawg
08-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Any Astros player on the Houston MVP poll is a joke. They are by far the worst professional team in Houston and will remain the worst professional team in Houston for many more years. The only player from the Astros that I would consider a MVP of Houston would be Roger Clemens because we made it to the World Series with him in the pitching rotation. My pick for Houston MVP is Andre Johnson or Chester Pitts.
The Astros have had the more success over the last decade than the Rockets or Texans...yes, the current team is not good, but that doesnt take anything away from what they have accomplished...at least compared to the other teams we have here.
juicystream
08-18-2009, 02:02 PM
Any Astros player on the Houston MVP poll is a joke. They are by far the worst professional team in Houston and will remain the worst professional team in Houston for many more years. The only player from the Astros that I would consider a MVP of Houston would be Roger Clemens because we made it to the World Series with him in the pitching rotation. My pick for Houston MVP is Andre Johnson or Chester Pitts.
The Texans have never had a winning season. Did you consider thinking that one out?
Yes, and the Rox, anchored by Peanut Brittle and Johnny Glassjaw, are certain to set the world on fire this year.
Like I mentioned, Andre is among the top in receptions of 20+ yards...therefore, stretching the field is something that AJ can boast about, with the best of them.
i certainly won’t dismiss it, rezdawg, *but he caught 115 passes!* it’s nearly impossible to not accumulate a large number of counting statistics when you catch that many passes. except, apparently… TDs.
but only 17% of his 115 receptions were for 20+ yards. fitzgerald – 21%; c. johnson – 27%; jennings – 26%; smith – 29%; d. jackson – 27%. only brandon marshall, among the top 10, had a smaller % (15) than andre johnson.
Yes, his YPC isnt high, but thats because he plays so many different roles as a receiver, more so than almost every WR in the NFL.
what??? i’m sorry but what a bunch of hooey. what roles, beyond catching the football and blocking, do they ask andre johnson to perform? is he playing MLB, too? lord, man – that’s just silly. no offense, rez - but come on. let's not deify the guy.
Jennings had exactly 1 more catch of 20+ yards than Andre and exactly 1 more TD. I dont see how he is any more of a game breaker than AJ. On the flip side, AJ caught 35 more balls. +1 for AJ.
yeah - *jennings caught 35 fewer passes* – remember? so he was actually *more* productive than johnson. so +1 for johnson and his 115 receptions; + everything else to jennings for doing more with less.
In the last 5 years, not one NFL WR had as many receiving yards as AJ had last season. It doesnt matter how you got there, but I dont see how someone who amasses so many yards isnt considered a game changer.
if fitzgerald had caught 115 balls, he would have totaled 1,714 yards; smith = 2,093; white = 1,805; c. johnson = 1,967; Jennings = 1,863.
catching 115 passes is impressive. but let’s not confuse quantity with quality. (which is not to say johnson isn’t a quality WR; he most certainly is.)
Getting TDs is, many times, a product of the offense...not of the individual. There are many instances where a very average WR gets double digit touchdowns and there are other times where a game changer like Plaxico gets single digit touchdowns (6 seasons, excluding last season).
except… johnson has never finished with 10 or more TDs *ever*. that’s the difference between him and plaxico; burress has done it - quite a few times, irrc. in fact, all the guys i listed have done it. and you concede even “average WR”s sometimes fortuitously do it.
and yet… johnson never has. not even once by accident. it’s an issue, rezdawg; it just is. he’s played 5 full, injury-free seasons……
Heck, Torry Holt, who has been one of the most productive WR over the last decade and had a chance to play in an offense that was the "greatest show on earth"...he had averaged 7.4 TDs per season. Why? Because his teams had enough talent where the TDs were spread around.
so now you’re arguing johnson’s been surrounded by ’99-’01 ram-like offensive talent? but i thought he was asked to play multiple roles and do more than any other receiver in football?
(and for the record, holt and bruce have both registered double-digit TDs.)
Its one thing to say that Andre is a possession receiver, but one of the top 3 players in the NFL...but its another thing to say he isnt a game changer. He changes the game plenty.
minutae, perhaps, but i never made any comment about him not being a “game changer” – i would absolutely argue he changes a game. in fact, i said as much: andre johnson is absolutely a weapon; defenses unquestionably game plan for him and that attention undoubtedly helps open up the offense. he is definitely valuable; i would never argue otherwise. but MOST valuable……?
this was initially about "value." i did state, along the way, that i didn't think he's a game BREAKER - a guy who breaks open a game by creating big plays and… you know, scoring TDs.
but only 17% of his 115 receptions were for 20+ yards. fitzgerald – 21%; c. johnson – 27%; jennings – 26%; smith – 29%; d. jackson – 27%. only brandon marshall, among the top 10, had a smaller % (15) than andre johnson.
Wait, though--what percentage of an entire team's 20+ yd receptions went to each guy? What percentage of the team's receptions at all were 20+ yards? Doesn't the type of offense have some bearing on this, too? And the play of the QB and O-Line? (no statements here, just questions)
It just *seems* that those stats, taken alone, present a pretty murky picture of what happened and they're screaming for some context.
I've read through these discussions on multiple occasions, and I always come back to wondering what his play would look like under some other scheme, with a different set of circumstances. Not that I want to find out, mind you.
As far as the TDs, I do have a couple questions which center around how much an affect the Texans near-incompetence in the red zone would have on their players' (including Johnson's) TD numbers:
Generally speaking (on a league-average), what % of a team's TD happen from OUTSIDE the red zone?
Of those, how many are the result of "game-breaking" receptions?
Generally speaking, what % of a team's red-zone TDs go to WRs?
And an unrelated bonus: is it a "game-breaking" reception if he catches and runs for forty-five or so, down to the 3, and they punch it in with the fullback?
What I'm trying to gauge is whether AJ, in the minds of some, is being penalized for some weakness in the Texans' offense over which he has very little control. How responsible is AJ (and surely he has to be at least a little bit responsible?) that the Texans were flat-out incompetent in the red zone last year?
One more: is judging AJ solely based on TD numbers dangerously similar to judging Mario solely on sack numbers?
One more: is judging AJ solely based on TD numbers dangerously similar to judging Mario solely on sack numbers?
i'm certainly not judging andre johnson based solely on the # of TDs he's scored; not at all. i think he's a great player and a top (possession) WR. it's funny (to me) that people consider that to be an insult - he's (gasp!) a possession WR!!! i don't mean it to be damning in the least; he's a valuable part of this offense. MOST valuable...? eh.........
and i know it's not all his fault (the lack of TDs) - but you can't use all these counting stats as a means to define him as a player and then ignore the single most important counting statistic out there, imo.
(ps mario has 30 sacks in 3 years to johnson's 33 TDs in 6 years - i'm just sayin'...)
i'm certainly not judging andre johnson based solely on the # of TDs he's scored; not at all.
Granted--but you *are* excluding from the company of others based almost entirely on TD numbers.
*Almost* entirely. The other thread of discussion raises another question:
If those other guys *really* were to have that many more receptions than they did (up in AJ's territory), would their other numbers *really* stay precisely the same? Are there really that many "game-breaking" receptions to go around in a given football game? Tack on 35-40 more recpetions for each of these other guys, and the lion's share of those receptions will likely fall somewhere between dink-and-dunk and 8-15 yard plays. Not many of those become TDs, either.
So, the next question, then, is: does it lie at the feet of AJ or his coach/offensive scheme?
I've seen it argued before that AJ doesn't get YAC a whole bunch, and because of that he's not an elite WR or a "game-breaker". Looking at the inverse of that--how many times have you seen an AJ reception and thought, "damn dude, why didn't you get five or ten after that? or at least three???" I'm asking the question having no idea how you'll respond, by the way--and I don't have an opinion on it myself. Just agenda-free questions.
And, my questions are outside the context of the whole "is AJ the MVP" thing, too--I'm just wanting to read your responses.
(ps mario has 30 sacks in 3 years to johnson's 33 TDs in 6 years - i'm just sayin'...)
meh. I love 'em both.
If those other guys *really* were to have that many more receptions than they did (up in AJ's territory), would their other numbers *really* stay precisely the same?
whooops -- horribly worded. Please allow me to rephrase; it's completely unintelligible what I was asking (sorry!).
but only 17% of his 115 receptions were for 20+ yards. fitzgerald – 21%; c. johnson – 27%; jennings – 26%; smith – 29%; d. jackson – 27%. only brandon marshall, among the top 10, had a smaller % (15) than andre johnson
if fitzgerald had caught 115 balls, he would have totaled 1,714 yards; smith = 2,093; white = 1,805; c. johnson = 1,967; Jennings = 1,863.
I'll assume those second numbers are extrapolated directly from YPC.
Now, my question which I intended to ask:
If these guys have 115 receptions, do those percentages or 20+ yd receptions really stay that high? And, does YPC really stay that high such that their total yardage over the season is that high?
rezdawg
08-18-2009, 03:41 PM
By "roles as a receiver", I meant that GB doesnt ask Jennings to run a pass play for 4 yards to get the first down...they save that for Donald Driver and his precise route running. If Jennings had that role, he wouldnt be averaging almost 17 ypc.
I just think its silly that if AJ gets 12 TDs this year, he is all of a sudden this game breaker...when we've all seen what he is capable of doing.
And for the record, I always categorized game breaker and game changer as the same thing...
rezdawg
08-18-2009, 04:04 PM
Also, the Texans, as a team, only had 21 passing TDs...Saints had 34, Cards had 31, Cowboys 29, Packers 28...How is anyone supposed to score double digit TDs when there are 21 TDs to go around to a probowl WR, probowl TE, solid #2 WR, and a budding star at RB?
The Texans just werent able to get into the endzone with all the opportunities we had last season.. Imagine if we had 8 more TDs to spread around...surely a couple of them would go to AJ...and that would surely make him a game breaker because it would give him this arbitrary number of "10".
Looking at the passing offenses of the NFL teams...
Only 1 team had more pass completions of 20+ yards.
Only 3 teams had more pass completions of 40+ yards.
Yet, every team within discussion had at least 28 passing TDs.
Therefore, the Texans really do air it out as much as any team in the league...they just dont score. Watching the games, I have seen AJ mess up a couple of times in the endzone, but really, the blame rests on the play calling and the countless other mistakes that are made in that territory. We gave up way too many chances to put up 7.
I think we will be much improved in this area this upcoming season and you will definitely see AJ improve on his TD numbers.
Granted--but you *are* excluding from the company of others based almost entirely on TD numbers.
well... first of all, i've focused on TDs *and* YPC, if we're being perefectly honest here. but really - the conversation (in general) is devolving into minutae. i consider andre johnson a great WR for reasons that differ from many in this thread - that's pretty much the gist. he simply doesn't put the ball in the end zone enough for me to consider him the MOST valuable texan, let alone player in houston.
If those other guys *really* were to have that many more receptions than they did (up in AJ's territory), would their other numbers *really* stay precisely the same?
probably not; but if johnson were catching 35-40 fewer balls, do we have any evidence to suggest his TDs and YPC were go up accordingly?
So, the next question, then, is: does it lie at the feet of AJ or his coach/offensive scheme?
we could probably list 1,000s of factors. to me, johnson took his game to another level in 2007. prior to that - and no one wants to admit this but he could be single-covered and effectively negated. he struggled to create space and separation, too. and, of course, there were the (lack of) TDs.
so he definitely shares *some* of the blame.
By "roles as a receiver", I meant that GB doesnt ask Jennings to run a pass play for 4 yards to get the first down...they save that for Donald Driver and his precise route running. If Jennings had that role, he wouldnt be averaging almost 17 ypc.
that's a fair point.
I just think its silly that if AJ gets 12 TDs this year, he is all of a sudden this game breaker...when we've all seen what he is capable of doing.
as i mentioned in my response to msn, i actually think johnson's getting better - so it wouldn't be all of a sudden. he oh-so-slightly regressed last year - i thought he made a tremendous leap in '07 and was closer to '06 johnson last year than '07 - though still better than '06.
so if he gets back to his '07 level - *and starts scoring more TDs* - i think we'd be looking at the complete package.
Therefore, the Texans really do air it out as much as any team in the league...they just dont score.
absolutely, rezdawg - so let me ask you a question: why is that not (at least some of) the fault of our game changing/breaking/best wide receiver in football?
well... first of all, i've focused on TDs *and* YPC, if we're being perefectly honest here. but really - the conversation (in general) is devolving into minutae.
Yeah, but the minutiae don't bother if we're not calling one another names over it. I'm enjoying the read, anyways.
i consider andre johnson a great WR for reasons that differ from many in this thread - that's pretty much the gist. he simply doesn't put the ball in the end zone enough for me to consider him the MOST valuable texan, let alone player in houston.
So, it *is* all about the TD? :D (settle down, I'm just kidding)
probably not; but if johnson were catching 35-40 fewer balls, do we have any evidence to suggest his TDs and YPC were go up accordingly?
This part is what I really wanted to respond to:
--TDs certainly not! but
--YPC: don't you think it might? If he's catching fewer passes, and each type of pass goes down proportionately, he'll have a lot fewer dink-and-dunk passes and just a couple fewer long ones (OR, perhaps due to scheme, just as many long ones, no?) -- in which case, the YPC would go up, right? It's at least a reasonable plausibility, isn't it?
[quote]we could probably list 1,000s of factors. to me, johnson took his game to another level in 2007. prior to that - and no one wants to admit this but he could be single-covered and effectively negated. he struggled to create space and separation, too. and, of course, there were the (lack of) TDs.[/quoute]
True. One of those thousands of factors is a pretty glaring coincidence, isn't it?
Major
08-18-2009, 05:03 PM
we could probably list 1,000s of factors. to me, johnson took his game to another level in 2007. prior to that - and no one wants to admit this but he could be single-covered and effectively negated. he struggled to create space and separation, too. and, of course, there were the (lack of) TDs.
Prior to 2007, he also had a QB who was scared to hold on to the ball more than 2 seconds and loved to throw 5-yard dump-off passes. Changing QB's had a lot more to do with his improvement than him stepping up his game, IMO.
rezdawg
08-18-2009, 05:18 PM
absolutely, rezdawg - so let me ask you a question: why is that not (at least some of) the fault of our game changing/breaking/best wide receiver in football?
No, I dont have any problems conceding the fact that some fault can be attributed to AJ. I dont think he is a God, but I do feel like he is a beast on the field...and I put him alongside the best at reeling in the pigskin.
I do see us putting up more points this season and I think a good chunk of them will be towards AJ. I expect about 100 receptions, 1500 yards, and 12 TDs. Thats my final answer. :D
Actually, I'll say one last thing...if, with what we have working on offense this year, Andre still cant get that 10+ TDs, then I will assume that its something that he is lacking that isnt allowing him to put up points. Up to this point, Ive pretty much blamed everything else (QB, playcalling, stupid mistakes, etc...). :cool:
Changing QB's had a lot more to do with his improvement than him stepping up his game, IMO.
I think this has to be at least a factor, although I think AJ *did* improve in '07.
However:
Prior to 2007, he also had a QB who was scared to hold on to the ball more than 2 seconds and loved to throw 5-yard dump-off passes.
That's not how I remember it. I remember DC either being too shell-shocked or too stupid to throw it, because 3.5 seconds later he was horizontal *again*. The dink-and-dunk thing was the coaching staff's answer to a bad QB with a bad o-line and no running game and the need to somehow still move the football. At least, that's how I remember it.
Hey --
What are the major grading points for a would-be elite WR?
And, can you smarter folks (not being lazy, just admitting I don't know it!) compare the elites and Andre on these?
What do we have...
-- separation?
-- actually *catching* it?
-- "ups"?
-- breakaway speed?
-- doing something after catching it? (what do you call that?)
-- routerunning?
...I'm betraying serious ignorance here. But I'm interested in your response.
rezdawg
08-18-2009, 05:38 PM
-- actually *catching* it?
I just looked up the "drops" statistic...
As far as AJ is concerned, he dropped 5 catches last year...which meant that ~40 players dropped more passes than him last season.
Pretty much means that AJ caught 115 out of 120 possible balls. Not bad.
Some notables:
Braylon Edwards led the NFL with 16.
T.O. led the NFC with 10.
Jabar Gaffney dropped 6...caught 38. Bad.
rezdawg
08-18-2009, 05:53 PM
-- doing something after catching it? (what do you call that?)
Yards after catch (YAC).
I found a site that says total yards after catch, so I will do some math and post those numbers:
Andre Johnson - 4.3 yac
Larry Fitzgerald - 4.8 yac
Greg Jennings - 4.78
Randy Moss - 5.2
Reggie Wayne - 4.1
Calvin Johnson - 6.5
Anquan Boldin - 6.7
Wes Welker - 6.8
I kind of got bored doing the math, lol, if anyone wants to know another player, Ill post it.
I think I found a new argument for Ric. :D Actually, I think this should be an important statistic for "game breaker". Youre welcome, Ric, haha. I just F'ed myself with posting this stat.
Major
08-18-2009, 06:03 PM
I think I found a new argument for Ric. :D Actually, I think this should be an important statistic for "game breaker". Youre welcome, Ric, haha. I just F'ed myself with posting this stat.
But that would suggest that Wes Welker is a game-breaking receiver while Larry Fitzgerald really isn't?
YAC has a lot to do with where and when you catch balls. Wes Welker is a 3rd receiver generally catching short passes in space, so he has room to run. Don't get me wrong - that's a *great* skill to have, but Randy Moss standing in the endzone 30 yards downfield and leaping to catch a pass and getting zero YAC is more of a game breaking move than Wes Welker catching a pass 5 yards past the line of scrimmage and running 7 yards with it.
rezdawg
08-18-2009, 06:05 PM
But that would suggest that Wes Welker is a game-breaking receiver while Larry Fitzgerald really isn't?
YAC has a lot to do with where and when you catch balls. Wes Welker is a 3rd receiver generally catching short passes in space, so he has room to run. Don't get me wrong - that's a *great* skill to have, but Randy Moss standing in the endzone 30 yards downfield and leaping to catch a pass and getting zero YAC is more of a game breaking move than Wes Welker catching a pass 5 yards past the line of scrimmage and running 7 yards with it.
Good point...yes! My argument is back on track! :D
Major
08-18-2009, 06:50 PM
I kind of got bored doing the math, lol, if anyone wants to know another player, Ill post it.
Oh - and just FYI, Yahoo's player info has YAC as one of their listed stats, so no need for math. Here's the entire league (WRs only) by YAC:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=WR&conference=NFL&year=season_2008&sort=46&timeframe=All
Major
08-18-2009, 06:51 PM
That's not how I remember it. I remember DC either being too shell-shocked or too stupid to throw it, because 3.5 seconds later he was horizontal *again*. The dink-and-dunk thing was the coaching staff's answer to a bad QB with a bad o-line and no running game and the need to somehow still move the football. At least, that's how I remember it.
Very well could be - I've blocked it out to some extent. All I remember is a QB that would only throw dink-and-dunk passes being praised for his high completion percentage. :)
Prior to 2007, he also had a QB who was scared to hold on to the ball more than 2 seconds and loved to throw 5-yard dump-off passes. Changing QB's had a lot more to do with his improvement than him stepping up his game, IMO.
(deep breath....) in 2004 - johnson's second full-year in the league - carr set career highs in attempts, yards, yds/att (7.6 - schaub: 7.8 and 8.0, fyi) and TDs. and johnson - who had 79 receptions; third most of his career - scored 6 TDs. it's easy to paint david carr's career as a giant, heaping pile of fail - and, for the most part, it was (notallhisfault). but he wasn't a complete failure.
the absolutely last thing i want to do is get sucked into any discussion involving david carr........ (another deep breath) but he was better than tyler thigpen and dan orlovsky were last year, and they each had a WR hit double digits.
i've long conceded there are myriad reasons for johnson not breaking the 10-TD barrier (and sure, yes - carr is one of them)... but the one constant, through all the regime and personnel changes, has been..... andre johnson.
What do we have...
-- separation?
-- actually *catching* it?
-- "ups"?
-- breakaway speed?
-- doing something after catching it? (what do you call that?)
-- routerunning?
i think the system has certainly created more space for him but i also think he (and the team) has gotten better. he struggled early in his career with it, imo. he's certainly fast, i've seen him get behind a defense (thanks in large part to playaction) but he rarely *outruns* anyone. this may be the system - its not a downfield system. then again, as i understand it, the WCO is designed to get a WR in space and let them run after the catch. at least, that's the way walsh devised it way back when.
otherwise, he's as good as any i've seen. i think his signature moment as a texan was his 4th down catch last year against the dolphins that more or less "saved" their season (as much as you can save an 0-4 season). he ripped the ball right off the defender's shoulder pad with an arm in his face - pure, absolute strength and concentration. of course, he fell down immediately... :) but seriously: that, to me, is quintessential andre johnson - big, strong (strong hands) receiver.
BleedsRocketRed
08-18-2009, 08:58 PM
When I first read the original post, my first thought was Andre Johnson. Without him the Texans would be a disaster.
And after reading further along, looks like I am not the only one thinking like this as well.
I think I found a new argument for Ric. :D Actually, I think this should be an important statistic for "game breaker". Youre welcome, Ric, haha. I just F'ed myself with posting this stat.
lol. relax - i don't think you can extract any one stat and have it mean much of anything. as Major pointed out - welker is averaging 6.8 yards after the catch but only 10.5 yards/catch. so he's basically catching, roughly, 4-yard slants. big whoop. if he didn't have the entire defense ****ting bricks at the thought of moss sprinting free behind them, i think he'd be closer to 4-yard slants and a 1-2 YAC.
i think johnson being in line with other receivers in YAC, but trailing in terms of the ratio of 20+-yard receptions, underscores his inability - for whatever reason - to break a play open with any frequency. i would imagine most great WRs are defended similarly - ie with a safety over top to try and contain the play. that johnson is held, %-wise, to fewer 20+-yard receptions would indicate he's more often contained than the other guys.
i would imagine most great WRs are defended similarly - ie with a safety over top to try and contain the play. that johnson is held, %-wise, to fewer 20+-yard receptions would indicate he's more often contained than the other guys.
It wouldn't have anything to do with the types of routes he's running for a large portion of those receptions? AJ seems to be out in the middle with safeties breaking in on him a *lot*. At least, to my uneducated brain it seems that way.
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