LeBron vs. MJ

[ItsMyFault]

Alright well.. stuff brewing up in the Magic-Cavs series thread.. thought I'd bring it here so they can get back on topic.

I know this has prob been discussed a billion times.. thought after game 2, people have some opinions they'd like to add.

Here are some of my opinions of LeBron vs. MJ...

He's not MJ though.... not even close. Doesn't matter if he comes out and says it or not... people can't say he's better than MJ without him at least MATCHING what Michael did for his career. So that's at least 4 more mvps.. 6 chips.. dpoy... A LOT more buzzer beaters... I can go on and on....

Yeah.. that's what I'm thinking too. I just can't see LeBron matching it, I know he's very young, and he has A LOT of time left... but's its really hard to do. You're basically talking about being the GOAT.. in the league of Tiger Woods.. Muhammad Ali.. people like that.. it's just too much.

Discuss....

[Northside Storm]

Copy paste yoink

Sigh...I hate the inevitable hate on the comparisons...

BUT, 6 years into their career, to lend some perspective...

Lebron has won one MVP.
Micheal has won one MVP.

Lebron has been to the Finals once.
Micheal has not been to the Finals at all.

[JLEW1818]

HE BEAT THE MAGIC AT HOME TO TIE THE SERIES 1-1 AT HOME!!!! AT ****ING HOME AGAINST STAN VAN GUNDY! NICE ACCOMPLISHMENT

SHOW ME RINGS

[BrownBeast99]

Much too early to actually compare the two players' greatness. Certainly he has the best shot of reaching that level and surpassing it but he'll have to accomplish a whole lot more in the rest of his career to be legitimately compared with MJ. That said, LBJ is AMAZING!

[ClutchCity3]

Crab Dribbles vs. God? You F-A-I-L.

[ItsMyFault]

Copy paste yoink

Difference is.. LeBron had a cake walk in 07 to the finals.. First two rounds of the playoffs for him were a given.. against a depleted Wizards team.. and then against a banged up Nets team.. Pistons series was the only series I felt LeBron was even challenged.. he got through it.. but you could tell in the Finals.. when they got swept.. they weren't really meant to be there.

[A_3PO]

Looking at their first 6 seasons in the NBA, LeBron compares quite well with MJ. As stated in another thread, Michael Jordan didn't become MJ until he won 2-3 championships.

LeBron has a long way to go, but he's definitely capable of being as good as MJ. The way he's stepped up his game with the vast improvement in his outside shooting and defense is impressive.

[ItsMyFault]

Crab Dribbles vs. God? You F-A-I-L.

Hey.. I'm just bringing this debate back from the other thread.. it's not like I started the debate.

[A_3PO]

HE BEAT THE MAGIC AT HOME TO TIE THE SERIES 1-1 AT HOME!!!! AT ****ING HOME AGAINST STAN VAN GUNDY! NICE ACCOMPLISHMENT

SHOW ME RINGS
How many rings did MJ have his first 6 seasons?

[A_3PO]

Hey.. I'm just bringing this debate back from the other thread.. it's not like I started the debate.
Thank you. :) We can stash the trash here and leave the real discussion in the game thread.

[JBIIRockets]

Win 6 championships LBJ. And make sure you get the NBA Finals MVP each time.

[Shaud]

The way people bring up "the rings" you would think MJ was winning Championships since his Rookie year.

[Northside Storm]

Difference is.. LeBron had a cake walk in 07 to the finals.. First two rounds of the playoffs for him were a given.. against a depleted Wizards team.. and then against a banged up Nets team.. Pistons series was the only series I felt LeBron was even challenged.. he got through it.. but you could tell in the Finals.. when they got swept.. they weren't really meant to be there.

Few remember that Jordan's Bulls...

1) Didn't reach the playoffs the first year.
2) Were swept by the Celtics the following two years in the first round.
3) Were dismantled by the Pistons the following two years in the second round/ ECF.
4) Finally pushed the Pistons to seven but still lost in the ECF.

You can argue about the strength of the teams, but other then the Bad Boy Pistons and Bird's Celtics...I don't feel like the EC was THAT tough back then. Jordan's playoff legacy was very much in question his first six years and I think Lebron fares slightly better in this category. Not saying he will be the GOAT, but Lebron has a better chance then pretty much everyone else and he's right on track.

[ItsMyFault]

The way people bring up "the rings" you would think MJ was winning Championships since his Rookie year.

I think they bring up the rings because its really hard to do.. honestly.. as great as Shaq has been over this decade and his success.. he got to 4... and probably will stay at 4 unless he gets traded elsewhere... It's just something thats really hard to do, people over look it sometimes...

[ItsMyFault]

Few remember that Jordan's Bulls...

1) Didn't reach the playoffs the first year.
2) Were swept by the Celtics the following two years in the first round.
3) Were dismantled by the Pistons the following two years in the second round/ ECF.
4) Finally pushed the Pistons to seven but still lost in the ECF.

You can argue about the strength of the teams, but other then the Bad Boy Pistons and Bird's Celtics...I don't feel like the EC was THAT tough back then. Jordan's playoff legacy was very much in question his first six years and I think Lebron fares slightly better in this category. Not saying he will be the GOAT, but Lebron has a better chance then pretty much everyone else and he's right on track.

Well.. only one thing I disagree with here... 1)... First year?

[Mr. Space City]

as i said before.

lebron is not near jordans level yet. he has the abilty to get close but right not its not even close. but he his doing a lot with less

lebron does not have a scottie pippen. lebrons 2nd option is Mo Williams...like seriously?

mike brown vs. phil jackson...like seriously?

stat for stat. lebron is just not as efficient as jordan and probably will never be. in jordans entire career he shot .497 from the field (which would be higher if you take away his wizards days). jordans rookie year he shot .515 from the field!!!

please stop thee comparisons because ya'll are belittling a great player like lebron.

lebron is lebron and jordan is jordan.

/

[Shaud]

I think they bring up the rings because its really hard to do.. honestly.. as great as Shaq has been over this decade and his success.. he got to 4... and probably will stay at 4 unless he gets traded elsewhere... It's just something thats really hard to do, people over look it sometimes...
I agree with that but I'm just saying, if you look at them through their 1st 6 years you could make a case for LeBron having the better career at that point.

Fact is MJ never got out the 1st round without Pippen.

Fact is LeBron has never had a Pippen type player beside him.

[Northside Storm]

Well.. only one thing I disagree with here... 1)... First year?

...good catch.

The Bulls finished the season 38–44,[22] and lost in the first round of the playoffs in four games to the Milwaukee Bucks.

Not really much better though.

[flamingdts]

The day Lebron receives less treatment and is called for at least half of his travels andplays against hall of famers, is the day I'll put him up next to MJ.

[ItsMyFault]

I agree with that but I'm just saying, if you look at them through their 1st 6 years you could make a case for LeBron having the better career at that point.

Fact is MJ never got out the 1st round without Pippen.

Fact is LeBron has never had a Pippen type player beside him.

Yeah by stats.. but by achievements.. that's what makes players the best of their sport. Wilt and Kareem are probably statistically the greatest of all time as players.. but more people look at success and those awards and achievements, I think that's why you can't say that even if LeBron is having a better start to his career that he will end up as great as MJ.

Different era's.. you can't just say MJ never got outta the first round without Pippen and LeBron single handedly did without another role player..

[Shaud]

Yeah by stats.. but by achievements.. that's what makes players the best of their sport. Wilt and Kareem are probably statistically the greatest of all time as players.. but more people look at success and those awards and achievements, I think that's why you can't say that even if LeBron is having a better start to his career that he will end up as great as MJ.

Different era's.. you can't just say MJ never got outta the first round without Pippen and LeBron single handedly did without another role player..
I'm not saying that LeBron will be better than MJ but I'm saying based off their 1st 6 years you can't just dismiss the discussion all together.

I know they played in different Era's but still the facts are the facts.

[rockbox]

The day Lebron receives less treatment and is called for at least half of his travels andplays against hall of famers, is the day I'll put him up next to MJ.

MJ was the originator of the 3 step take off. He traveled more than anyone in the league. Where do you think Lebron learned it from.

[Northside Storm]

The day Lebron receives less treatment and is called for at least half of his travels andplays against hall of famers, is the day I'll put him up next to MJ.

The thing is...two factors are at work here and they conflict against each other...

1) Rules have been set so that it is easier for Lebron to score (no handcheck/defensive 3 seconds)

2) The pace of the NBA was much quicker in Jordan's era, which inflated Micheal's stats.

[A_3PO]

The day Lebron receives less treatment and is called for at least half of his travels andplays against hall of famers, is the day I'll put him up next to MJ.
Did you watch MJ play? Are you aware the cries of favoritism from the refs were louder about MJ back than they are about LeBron today?

If we are going to compare the two players, let's be realistic and hold them to the same standards.

[ItsMyFault]

I'm not saying that LeBron will be better than MJ but I'm saying based off their 1st 6 years you can't just dismiss the discussion all together.

I know they played in different Era's but still the facts are the facts.

I'm not dismissing the discussion... but statistics aren't what determines who's the GOAT.. that starts coming after success happens. It happened with Kobe, Duncan, Shaq... all of them after they won, after LeBron wins.. it'll be more to discuss.

Getting back to that point about LeBron single handedly doing things... that's just not true. They play different styles... I mean you look at the teams, the Cavs win by defense, and while the Bulls were also a pretty good defensive team, they won by offense as their driving mechanism. There's just too much to say LeBron did it a lone while also saying MJ couldn't do it alone. Those aren't facts.. you gotta get some numbers out there while also comparing teams.. era's.. EVERYTHING. It's just too much that goes into it, you can't just say that.

[Shaud]

I'm not dismissing the discussion... but statistics aren't what determines who's the GOAT.. that starts coming after success happens. It happened with Kobe, Duncan, Shaq... all of them after they won, after LeBron wins.. it'll be more to discuss.

Getting back to that point about LeBron single handedly doing things... that's just not true. They play different styles... I mean you look at the teams, the Cavs win by defense, and while the Bulls were also a pretty good defensive team, they won by offense as their driving mechanism. There's just too much to say LeBron did it a lone while also saying MJ couldn't do it alone. Those aren't facts.. you gotta get some numbers out there while also comparing teams.. era's.. EVERYTHING. It's just too much that goes into it, you can't just say that.
I never said LeBron did it by himself.

I said he does not have a Pippen beside him. He does not have a Robin.

You named Tim Duncan, well his supporting cast was way better than Lebron's supporting cast.

You named Kobe and Shaq, both of them had each other.

LeBron has Mo Williams as his 2nd option who would be better as a 3rd option.

I'm not even saying LeBron is better than MJ or close to it.

[ItsMyFault]

I never said LeBron did it by himself.

I said he does not have a Pippen beside him. He does not have a Robin.

You named Tim Duncan, well his supporting cast was way better than Lebron's supporting cast.

You named Kobe and Shaq, both of them had each other.

LeBron has Mo Williams as his 2nd option who would be better as a 3rd option.

I'm not even saying LeBron is better than MJ or close to it.

Yeah.. but you're talking about just getting out of the first round.. LeBron hasn't won anything yet.. so I wasn't even talking about a championship.

[knote32]

Michael could have zero rings and he is still the FAR superior player...

[csnerd84]

I think this kind of stat comparisons are pointless. The first few years of MJ and Lebron may look similar but that does not matter because what made MJ special was that he was able to win 6 championships in 8 year of span. That is very difficult to do without having a great team. Lebron does not have good supporting cast along with him. I don't think they can win championship this year if they have to play the Lakers in the finals.

[peleincubus]

The day Lebron receives less treatment and is called for at least half of his travels andplays against hall of famers, is the day I'll put him up next to MJ.

he has probably against 10 hall of famers already. but you see there not in the hall yet because they have either just retired or are still playing.

[Shaud]

Yeah.. but you're talking about just getting out of the first round.. LeBron hasn't won anything yet.. so I wasn't even talking about a championship.
I only brought that up because people act like MJ won Rings the 1st 6 years of his career.

My post really isn't based on MJ its more based on the fact that we won't know how good LeBron is until he gets his Pippen, if he ever gets a guy like that.

[ItsMyFault]

I only brought that up because people act like MJ won Rings the 1st 6 years of his career.

My post really isn't based on MJ its more based on the fact that we won't know how good LeBron is until he gets his Pippen, if he ever gets a guy like that.

But people act like LeBron will win 6 rings.... that's really really hard to do, even with his "Pippen". People bring that part of MJ up because it's something that's really unbreakable, especially with the league and how it is today.

I'd also like to add.... Amare Stoudemire is in the studios on NBATV wearing something hideous... LMAO. It's just funny to see him sit there with what he has on..

[ChrisBosh]

35 pts/game on .535 shooting with 3.16 spg (Jordan's Year 4 stats in the NBA...that's a SICK line!!!!). He averaged almost .500 FG% for his career :eek: . I hate the guy...... only if he was humble like Hakeem :)....but he IS the greatest player to play the game and I don't see anyone playing currently who's even close to being as good. I'm just looking at the stats, I don't think we can talk about rings since Lebron's career is still being written.

[Pest_Ctrl]

I think LBJ has as good a shot as anyone to surpass MJ as GOAT, but he has to work his butt off the rest of his career to get there.

LBJ now is a lot similar to a young MJ, extremely physically gifted and is overwhelming others with pure physical gift. However what made MJ GOAT was how he developed his game as his athleticism gradually faded. He perfected that turnaround jumper, became a master at all kinds of fakes that throws his opponent off balance. He could still score 40, 50 points at 39 years old, with not too much athleticism left. The real challenge for LBJ will come when his body starts to decline, and how will he retool his game to adjust for that.

[ItsMyFault]

I think LBJ has as good a shot as anyone to surpass MJ as GOAT, but he has to work his butt off the rest of his career to get there.

LBJ now is a lot similar to a young MJ, extremely physically gifted and is overwhelming others with pure physical gift. However what made MJ GOAT was how he developed his game as his athleticism gradually faded. He perfected that turnaround jumper, became a master at all kinds of fakes that throws his opponent off balance. He could still score 40, 50 points at 39 years old, with not too much athleticism left. The real challenge for LBJ will come when his body starts to decline, and how will he retool his game to adjust for that.

I agree with this. You notice on LeBron's jumpshot.. sometimes he doesn't use his legs on his shot because of how strong his upper body is. He just uses that for his shot... With Michael it was all about his ability to get elevation on his shot and perfecting that.. (sorta like how Kobe has it now).. If LeBron can develop that same technique.. he'll be deadly.

[Pest_Ctrl]

I agree with this. You notice on LeBron's jumpshot.. sometimes he doesn't use his legs on his shot because of how strong his upper body is. He just uses that for his shot... With Michael it was all about his ability to get elevation on his shot and perfecting that.. (sorta like how Kobe has it now).. If LeBron can develop that same technique.. he'll be deadly.

I was watching some old Jordan game clips on Youtube the other day, and it occurred to me that the biggest difference between today's Kobe and Jordan is the use of pump fakes and head fakes. For Kobe, although it is extremely hard to guard, but usually it is pretty obvious what he wants to do, whether it is a fadeaway jumper, or drive, or pull up, and I think that's why Shane can stick a hand right in his face most of the times. For Jordan, he just have so many moves that every one of them could be fake, and he just kept his defenders guessing. If they bite anyone of them they are doomed, if they don't he will just pull up for a jump shot. I have been wondering for some time how well Shane would fare against a prime Jordan, will he be able to stick a hand in his face.

I think this clip below is a great example, Jordan scoring 43 at 40 years old against the Nets. Nets went to the finals that year so it's not like he was doing this to the floor mats of the league. Basically he just froze his defenders with his fake moves, and when he did shoot, they always were a step slower at contesting the shot, which makes everyone of his jump shot a good shot.

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[durvasa]

I was watching some old Jordan game clips on Youtube the other day, and it occurred to me that the biggest difference between today's Kobe and Jordan is the use of pump fakes and head fakes. For Kobe, although it is extremely hard to guard, but usually it is pretty obvious what he wants to do, whether it is a fadeaway jumper, or drive, or pull up, and I think that's why Shane can stick a hand right in his face most of the times. For Jordan, he just have so many moves that every one of them could be fake, and he just kept his defenders guessing. If they bite anyone of them they are doomed, if they don't he will just pull up for a jump shot. I have been wondering for some time how well Shane would fare against a prime Jordan, will he be able to stick a hand in his face.

I think this clip below is a great example, Jordan scoring 43 at 40 years old against the Nets. Nets went to the finals that year so it's not like he was doing this to the floor mats of the league. Basically he just froze his defenders with his fake moves, and when he did shoot, they always were a step slower at contesting the shot, which makes everyone of his jump shot a good shot.

He had to do all those pump fakes because he didn't get any near the elevation on his jumper that he used to. And I think Kobe jumps even higher on his jumper.

[Pest_Ctrl]

He had to do all those pump fakes because he didn't get any near the elevation on his jumper that he used to. And I think Kobe jumps even higher on his jumper.

It's amazing how Jordan retooled his game as his physical ability declined. He was not able to out jump anyone anymore, but then he developed all those moves that allowed him to still score at will. Back to the topic, I think LBJ is as physically gifted as Jordan, if not more, the key challenge for him to elevate to GOAT status is how he retool his game when his body starts to slow down.

[ChrisBosh]

I think LBJ has as good a shot as anyone to surpass MJ as GOAT, but he has to work his butt off the rest of his career to get there.

LBJ now is a lot similar to a young MJ, extremely physically gifted and is overwhelming others with pure physical gift. However what made MJ GOAT was how he developed his game as his athleticism gradually faded. He perfected that turnaround jumper, became a master at all kinds of fakes that throws his opponent off balance. He could still score 40, 50 points at 39 years old, with not too much athleticism left. The real challenge for LBJ will come when his body starts to decline, and how will he retool his game to adjust for that.


Similar to a young MJ? I think you are really off base on this. They play a very different style game, Lebron has a way bigger reliance on his power game whereas Jordan played with more finesse/craftiness. Jordan was way more creative than Lebron, both on the perimeter and in the paint. It's exactly why Lebron won't be able to maintain this level when he gets older....he;s might be able to develop on this, but this came naturally to Jordan...it's a BIG advantage to him......plus Lebron already has 6 years under his belt, for a non-bigman, your ceiling is usually already set, I don't see this guy really getting way better in any one area. He is what you see now.....I just don't think it's good enough in terms of being the GOAT. He's got to be more effecient and effective to be GOAT, I doubt it'll hapen.

[lalala902102001]

It's way too early to mention Lebron with the greatests like Jordan just yet. Let's see him win a championship first.

There is still a very high chance that the Cavs get eliminated in this series.

[Pest_Ctrl]

Similar to a young MJ? I think you are really off base on this. They play a very different style game, Lebron has a way bigger reliance on his power game whereas Jordan played with more finesse/craftiness. Jordan was way more creative than Lebron, both on the perimeter and in the paint. It's exactly why Lebron won't be able to maintain this level when he gets older....he;s might be able to develop on this, but this came naturally to Jordan...it's a BIG advantage to him......plus Lebron already has 6 years under his belt, for a non-bigman, your ceiling is usually already set, I don't see this guy really getting way better in any one area. He is what you see now.....I just don't think it's good enough in terms of being the GOAT. He's got to be more effecient and effective to be GOAT, I doubt it'll hapen.

I didn't mean they play similar game. I meant that they both rely on their athleticism to get most of their points. Should've made it clearer.

[Jeff Who]

Right now it is not even close, But yeah, LeBron is amazing.

[Dr of Dunk]

He had to do all those pump fakes because he didn't get any near the elevation on his jumper that he used to. And I think Kobe jumps even higher on his jumper.

This is so true. It was amazing watching him go from being a dunking machine and athletic freak of nature to being a jump shooter.

BTW, MJ is also the oldest player to score over 50 points. I think he did it when he was 38-40. I wish he could play against zones and no handchecking today... he'd put up some silly numbers.

[Houston22]

How many rings did MJ have his first 6 seasons?
Oh yeah, so you want us to talk about the fututre? right..

[Ziggy]

Love that clip of 40yr old MJ. For a shooting guard to perform at that level at that age! Wow. Jordan completely reinvented himself by 96 (Fadeway Mike), if Lebron can pull something like that off I will start thinking about this question.

IMO Lebron should just retire after this year and ruin everyones life.

[Dr of Dunk]

Shaq's first visit to Chicago - MJ drops 64 on him and the Magic. It's fun watching MJ pop jumper after jumper in this game. He's just raining from 16-22 feet.

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Jordan dropping 51 at age 38 :

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[Shroopy2]

But people act like LeBron will win 6 rings.... that's really really hard to do, even with his "Pippen". People bring that part of MJ up because it's something that's really unbreakable, especially with the league and how it is today.

I'd also like to add.... Amare Stoudemire is in the studios on NBATV wearing something hideous... LMAO. It's just funny to see him sit there with what he has on..
Robert Horry is not a better player than Tracy McGrady. Mario Elie isnt a better player than Ron Artest. Rings do count, yes. But I'll take Barkley any day over Will Perdue.

There's plenty other Jordan hard-to-dos thats still tough for any player to match, though

[A_3PO]

Oh yeah, so you want us to talk about the fututre? right..
Look, I'm as big an MJ fan as anyone here and have taken heat for it. But to say "show me rings" as an argument against LeBron is foolish when MJ didn't win any himself until his 7th year. That's all.

To compare the two players fairly, we should compare LeBron's track record and development with MJ's first 6 years. If you do that, LeBron compares quite well despite being 3 years younger. Like MJ, he's clearly become the most dominant player in the game BEFORE winning a championship (unless he wins it this season). Some of the same arguments here against LeBron were used against MJ. The similarities are striking. I'll say this again: In many minds back in the day, Michael Jordan didn't become MJ until he won a couple of championships. There were a LOT of naysayers who didn't want to give him credit. Same with LeBron today.

[what]

Here is what I don't understand: Lebron makes a last second shot and espn shows it a million times, does historical back pieces concerning it, comparing it to Jordan, and yet two days earlier Rashard Lewis did the same this and what does it get? Great shot Rashard. It just shows you how the media can make a player seem bigger than LIFE. Hell even kobes 40 point game didn't get this much attention.

[Luckyazn]

STOP COMPARING KOBE or LEBRON to JORDAN !


damn I mean these guys are great but neither has WON a championship leading

their team yet! NOT 1 !!! (I'm not counting Kobe with Shaq)


Lets wait until if EVEN ONE of them win it this year ... could they do it maybe

another 3 of the next 4 yearssssss!??


then we can start the COMPARING!!!

damn should we start comparing Blake Giffins as the NEXT TIM DUNCAN?




STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[durvasa]

Here is what I don't understand: Lebron makes a last second shot and espn shows it a million times, does historical back pieces concerning it, comparing it to Jordan, and yet two days earlier Rashard Lewis did the same this and what does it get? Great shot Rashard. It just shows you how the media can make a player seem bigger than LIFE. Hell even kobes 40 point game didn't get this much attention.

This is a good point.

[Rocket86]

LBJ must first accomplish at least half of what MJ accomplished before He could be compared to MJ. Skills wise is one thing but the most important thing which will define a great player is his accomplishments.

[A_3PO]

Here is what I don't understand: Lebron makes a last second shot and espn shows it a million times, does historical back pieces concerning it, comparing it to Jordan, and yet two days earlier Rashard Lewis did the same this and what does it get? Great shot Rashard. It just shows you how the media can make a player seem bigger than LIFE. Hell even kobes 40 point game didn't get this much attention.
The difference is LeBron's first 6 seasons are comparable to MJ's. Rashard is in no way comparable. LeBron's career is what makes him seem "bigger than life", not the one shot yesterday.

40 point games are great, but there is nothing like a buzzer-beating shot in the playoffs. MJ's shot against Cleveland has been replayed more than any shot in history (except the one against Bryon Russell) and it came a couple of years before his first championship. And nobody talks about him scoring over 40 points in that same game either because "the Shot" is a bigger story.

I don't like ESPN either and almost never watch Sportscenter. But how can you blame them on this one? The moment was electric. If Rashard's shot was at the buzzer, it may have gotten more play by the four-letter network.

[t_mac1]

he's on his way but NOWHERE near there yet.

[KingCheetah]

I'm going to bump this thread in a decade and provide the forum with the correct answer.

You're welcome.

[YallMean]

As the leader of the team:

MJ 6 rings, Lebron none.

Case closed.

Skill wise, James has a lot to catch up, but he is still young.

[Artesticles]

LBJ is going to HATE Derrick Rose in the future. He will single-handedly cost LeBron multiple rings.

[Jackie1221]

LBJ is going to HATE Derrick Rose in the future. He will single-handedly cost LeBron multiple rings.


could be.

[Pest_Ctrl]

MJ also makes the baddest azz commercials of all time. Lebron got nothing on Mike when it comes to commercials.

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[cjtaylorpt]

I'm going to put this really nice and easy, some of LeBron's or Kobe's best performances is what Jordan did on a regular basis.

[Dave_78]

Of all the "next Jordan" guys out there Lebron is the only one that is actually on a path that could lead to him being as good or better than Mike. Guys like Grant Hill, Jerry Stackhouse, Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant were never a threat after 5-6 years in the league.

Lebron is actually putting up the individual numbers, getting noticeably better each season, helping his team get better every season AND he has the physical tools. We can't really know if Lebron will match or surpass MJ until Lebron is close to hanging up his sneakers but he has a chance. Even then it will still be tough since Lebron and Jordan are such different players. I suspect that a best case scenario for Lebron would be if he does enough in his career to actually make the comparison a realistic one.

[Jackie1221]

Of all the "next Jordan" guys out there Lebron is the only one that is actually on a path that could lead to him being as good or better than Mike. Guys like Grant Hill, Jerry Stackhouse, Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant were never a threat after 5-6 years in the league.

Lebron is actually putting up the individual numbers, getting noticeably better each season, helping his team get better every season AND he has the physical tools. We can't really know if Lebron will match or surpass MJ until Lebron is close to hanging up his sneakers but he has a chance. Even then it will still be tough since Lebron and Jordan are such different players. I suspect that a best case scenario for Lebron would be if he does enough in his career to actually make the comparison a realistic one.


how is Kobe Bryant not at threat still? wow

[Dave_78]

how is Kobe Bryant not at threat still? wow

He is 31 and is already starting to decline. Does not have the rings or the stats.

Jordan beats Kobe in literally every statistical category you can find and has twice as many Championships. He was also the best guy on the team where Kobe was second fiddle when he got his rings.

Are you serious?

[Hydhypedplaya]

as i said before.

lebron is not near jordans level yet. he has the abilty to get close but right not its not even close. but he his doing a lot with less

lebron does not have a scottie pippen. lebrons 2nd option is Mo Williams...like seriously?

mike brown vs. phil jackson...like seriously?

stat for stat. lebron is just not as efficient as jordan and probably will never be. in jordans entire career he shot .497 from the field (which would be higher if you take away his wizards days). jordans rookie year he shot .515 from the field!!!

please stop thee comparisons because ya'll are belittling a great player like lebron.

lebron is lebron and jordan is jordan.

/



As we lead up to Monday's showdown between the Cavaliers and Lakers, we focus our attentions on LeBron James and Kobe Bryant. My feelings on the State of the NBA Superstars has been published 'round here before. Through my eyes, LeBron is clearly the best player in the world (and, ahem, Kobe's not even #2 right now).

But at this late stage (Thursday night, to be exact), big-name analysts like Kenny Smith still name Kobe number one. That's fine -- you're entitled to your opinion, Kenny Smith. But I'm entitled to call that opinion ridiculous. So, um: that opinion is ridiculous. Follow me down the rabbit hole, from whence we shall never return.

Again, I've been hip deep in this muck plenty before. I named LeBron the best player in the NBA this summer; I hear he donated the prize of 500 ZillerBucks to charity. To me, it's clear-cut. To science, it seems pretty clear cut. But for whatever reason, Kenny Smith and some of you -- all good people, I trust -- argue the opposite.

John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is the best summary measure we've got ... and it's damn good. Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain and Shaquille O'Neal own the top 10 list of highest PER seasons -- this isn't some crackpot measure that counts Dennis Rodman as the finest player in modern history or Allen Iverson as just another scrub. PER mixes the right level of unexpected surprise with a grounded, "smell test" accuracy. Almost every analyst working for a team these days knows and respects PER as a measurement of individual player performance.

MJ has the best career PER, and the top four PER seasons of the modern era. He's the Greatest of All Time for a reason, that reason being that he is the Greatest of All Time. And of course, Kobe and 'Bron are inextricably linked to His Airness as potential usurpers to the throne. Kobe's been the Second Coming since '96, and James has settled into that spot over the past five seasons.

But what I don't get is that if Kobe is a potential G.O.A.T., and if LeBron is a potential G.O.A.T., and Kobe is much older than LeBron ... shouldn't their performances to date at least be in the same stratosphere? Because they aren't.

http://www.blogcdn.com/nba.fanhouse.com/media/2009/01/kobebrongraph-tz-425.jpg


LeBron -- who just turned 24 -- has already had two full seasons statistically better than the peak of Kobe (who is now age 30). This season for LeBron looks to break MJ's high standard -- and Kobe's peak is a mile back. The realist's premonitions of LeBron's reign over Kobe date back to '06, when a 21-year-old 'Bron matched Kobe's season shot for shot, box score for box score, win for win. Last season, LeBron officially broke away from Bryant. The comparison was not close last year. This season, the gulf is much, much larger.

And Kenny Smith is still arguing that Kobe's the best player in the world. It's absolutely hilarious. I'm not sure what LeBron needs to do in order to prove his mettle -- I imagine Kobephiles will point to his rings, but no one's arguing Kobe circa 2002 is the G.O.A.T. -- and I'm positive he doesn't care what Smith or I or you say. But for the good of the world, for the good of the children ... can we please take our heads out of [the sand] and admit reality? LeBron is the best player on this or any world, and there is no question.

Come on, you can do it. Say it slowly, if you must. LeBron ... is ... the best.

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/01/16/kobe-and-lebron-on-the-path-toward-jordan/

[legend215]

Bring up all of the stats you want but let's be real.....the era that both played (play) in plays a more pivotal role in their respective success.

MJ played against tough, physical defenses that were allowed to manhandle him on a nightly basis (and also against some of the better defenders of the modern era I might say) and still did what he did.

If someone coughs on Bron Bron it's a trip to the foul line. The rules and league commercialization now will probably set Bron up for a good run but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's better than MJ.
Think KRS 1 vs Lil Wayne

If you ask me it's not even close......MJ is the GOAT because he earned it. If Lebron, statistically beats him, it was partially given to him

[Jackie1221]

Bring up all of the stats you want but let's be real.....the era that both played (play) in plays a more pivotal role in their respective success.

MJ played against tough, physical defenses that were allowed to manhandle him on a nightly basis (and also against some of the better defenders of the modern era I might say) and still did what he did.

If someone coughs on Bron Bron it's a trip to the foul line. The rules and league commercialization now will probably set Bron up for a good run but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's better than MJ.
Think KRS 1 vs Lil Wayne

If you ask me it's not even close......MJ is the GOAT because he earned it. If Lebron, statistically beats him, it was partially given to him


great post. agree 100%

[A_3PO]

Bring up all of the stats you want but let's be real.....the era that both played (play) in plays a more pivotal role in their respective success.

MJ played against tough, physical defenses that were allowed to manhandle him on a nightly basis (and also against some of the better defenders of the modern era I might say) and still did what he did.

If someone coughs on Bron Bron it's a trip to the foul line. The rules and league commercialization now will probably set Bron up for a good run but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's better than MJ.
Think KRS 1 vs Lil Wayne

If you ask me it's not even close......MJ is the GOAT because he earned it. If Lebron, statistically beats him, it was partially given to him
This might be the most overrated and overstated topic discussed about MJ. Anyone here old enough to remember the "Jordan rules"? MJ got hit more than his share of times, but after his first couple of championships, let's just say the refs didn't exactly swallow the whistles on him. It's amazing how the same points people make against LeBron were used by Jordan-haters back in the day.

[Hydhypedplaya]

This might be the most overrated and overstated topic discussed about MJ. Anyone here old enough to remember the "Jordan rules"? MJ got hit more than his share of times, but after his first couple of championships, let's just say the refs didn't exactly swallow the whistles on him. It's amazing how the same points people make against LeBron were used by Jordan-haters back in the day.
I agree...anybody who was old enough to watch Jordan play would know that people hated Jordan like anything and had the same exact type of excuses for Jordan. Everything bad said about LBJ was also once said about MJ.

[Jackie1221]

true, but officiating is much tighter now. anyone and their 3yr old son can see that.

[rockbox]

What you also had to remember is after the first championship, Jordan got treated like Dwyane Wade. You couldn't sneeze on him without a foul call.

[francis 4 prez]

i always love the whole "MJ played against epic defenses" argument. he played a good 6 seasons in the 80's, when games were much faster paced and defenses weren't nearly as sophisticated or as good as they are now. sure he occasionally got a bad boys pistons game thrown in there but to listen to some everyone had chainsaws and billy clubs when they played defense back in the day. and part of this argument seems to be that defenses were so physical and jordan wasn't getting calls. uhh, jordan not getting calls? yeah, right.

if any of the 3 got screwed on their era in terms of D, it was kobe. basically games got slower and defenses better and more physical for about 20 years from when jordan came in until the handchecking rules after 03-04 (or was it 04-05?). but kobe got every bit of the worst part of it for the first 8 years of his career until the new rules happened. jordan caught the end of it with his last 1 or 2 bulls years and those wizards years. lebron didn't get the uptempo of jordan's day, but he's at least mostly played in a handcheck-free league his whole career.

none of that changes any of the facts though:

1. kobe is not in the lebron/mj conversation. they're a level above all of the rest. he doesn't have the stats or team-carrying accomplishments they do. he just didn't/doesn't have the same level of physical superiority of the other two. jordan was even stronger and more athletic than kobe and kobe was doing it against 15 years of extra athletic evolution. and lebron is just the freak of all freaks. because of this, kobe doesn't match them in terms of blocks and steals and can't put up the assists and rebounds as effortlessly as either lebron or mj. kobe is kobe because he developed the most ridiculously complete scoring repertoire of all-time and honed it to perfection. and he works extremely hard and has a good bball IQ.

2. all of these "lebron isn't even close to mj" comments are ridiculous. are y'all looking at the stats he puts up? the finals appearance and possibly another one coming up? lebron is the only guy to have a realistic chance at catching mj, and at age 24, he's ahead. we'll just have to see if he has MJ's finishing kick. his dominance into his 30's was pretty amazing.

3. **** michael jordan.

[spysta]

What I dont get is this.

Mike is old he isnt coming back, before lebron we had kobe. Kobe can never be the goat why? because we have already seen a better version of kobe. His name was michael jordan, they played the same position, kobe adopted his moves but could never catch mike.

Now we have never seen a Lebron james, weve seen penny, he was good, weve seen allen iverson he was really good, we saw grant hill he was okay, but never a force like lebron james. He plays nothing like michael jordan the way he affects the game is something we never seen before. Fast like a guard, similar in size to karl malone, point guard like ball handling skills, bullies himself though the lane, magic like court vision, unbelievable athletic abilites its ridiculous.

I think people should be happy that the league has somebody capable of pass jordan, do you want spend the rest of your life talking about how jordan was the best long ago? or would you rather see someone being the best now?

In my opinion even if he doesnt win 6 rings, he will still be in the conversation of the GOAT.

But ultimately I think he will pass michael jordan by season 11

[knote32]

I think Wade is better than Lebron...

[arno_ed]

It all depends on how Lebron will develop his game. I believe his first 6 years are just as impressive (if not more inpressive) than the first 6 years of Jordan. However Jordan took it to another level after that (his 6 championships). Will Lebron also be able to do this? I do not know. But there is only one way to find out. So saying he is not even close to Jordan is not true, it depens on the rest of his career.

The brilliance of Jordan was that even though his altheletic abilities were uncanny, he developed an game which was not dependent on this abilities (like his mid range fade away jumpers). If Lebron is able to do the same he might be able to become just as good or better than Jordan. Only time will tell.

[Drexlerfan22]

Bring up all of the stats you want but let's be real.....the era that both played (play) in plays a more pivotal role in their respective success.

MJ played against tough, physical defenses that were allowed to manhandle him on a nightly basis (and also against some of the better defenders of the modern era I might say) and still did what he did.

If someone coughs on Bron Bron it's a trip to the foul line. The rules and league commercialization now will probably set Bron up for a good run but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's better than MJ.
Think KRS 1 vs Lil Wayne

If you ask me it's not even close......MJ is the GOAT because he earned it. If Lebron, statistically beats him, it was partially given to him
Most. Hilarious. Post. Ever.

You're bashing someone else by saying they got more calls than Jordan? Jordan practically invented the get-breathed-on-then-go-to-the-line strategy.

"MJ is the GOAT because he earned it." Right. By that logic, go back to the old era when there was no such thing as a flagrant foul, or ask Wilt's rivals how much they were allowed to hack on him constantly because the refs were trying to "equalize the game" due to Wilt's dominance.

*If* the Cavs win the title this year, to me that makes Lebron the third guy to win a title practically by himself... Hakeem and Rick Barry being the others. Those guys both won titles without another superstar next to them.

[Air Langhi]

Most. Hilarious. Post. Ever.

You're bashing someone else by saying they got more calls than Jordan? Jordan practically invented the get-breathed-on-then-go-to-the-line strategy.

"MJ is the GOAT because he earned it." Right. By that logic, go back to the old era when there was no such thing as a flagrant foul, or ask Wilt's rivals how much they were allowed to hack on him constantly because the refs were trying to "equalize the game" due to Wilt's dominance.

*If* the Cavs win the title this year, to me that makes Lebron the third guy to win a title practically by himself... Hakeem and Rick Barry being the others. Those guys both won titles without another superstar next to them.

Those rocket teams were solid. They might have one super star, but they had a solid 5 and bench. Cle. is a 15 win team without bron.

[Drexlerfan22]

Those rocket teams were solid. They might have one super star, but they had a solid 5 and bench. Cle. is a 15 win team without bron.
I realize the 94 Rox were very solid. Max was a very good player, ditto Smith and rookie Cassell, ditto Thorpe, ditto Horry... but my point is that you can't classify any of those guys as a star-level player, maybe not even a legit all-star (kinda like Mo Williams is supposedly an "all-star" this season... yeah right). And history has shown that it's very difficult to win it all without at least two stars, two guys that other teams just have no answer for.

In 94 we had a broken-down Drexler, but even when everyone thought he was over the hill, he was still a difference-making star. He beat the Jazz almost single-handedly when we had no other answers for them.

But really, getting back to 94... it really is funny to watch old games of our Rockets in 94, because it's easy to foget just what a HUGE percentage of the time Hakeem touched the ball on offense. We posted the guy up like 80% of the time down the floor! The ball certainly didn't always stay there, but it always started there. You just don't see that anymore today, period. No one gets the ball that much anymore... except Lebron... because Lebron is that good.

[Angkor Wat]

You're bashing someone else by saying they got more calls than Jordan? Jordan practically invented the get-breathed-on-then-go-to-the-line strategy.



Ever heard of the Jordan Rules? Sure he got the usual superstar calls but fouls back then are nothing like the touch fouls now. A flagrant foul in this era, would be just a plain hard foul back when MJ was still playing.

[Tuan]

Well, to be fair, "The Jordan Rules" didnt exist until after he won a few championships. He was beat up like nobody else by the bad boy pistons. Anyone know what MJ's stats were against the Pistons in early 90s? Imagine a younger MJ playing in the league now.

By the time the jordan rules were in effect, MJ wasnt nearly the aggressive player he was in his younger days.....

[Tuan]

Another over-looked aspect about the MJ vs Lebron comparison is their defensive. I think Lebron being first team all defensive team is a complete joke. Sure the guy gets some spectacular blocks, but he isnt a great defensive player by any means. Jordan, on the other hand, was a dominant defensive player.

[wekko368]

*If* the Cavs win the title this year, to me that makes Lebron the third guy to win a title practically by himself... Hakeem and Rick Barry being the others.

Since Mo Williams was an all-star this year, I have to disagree with your assessment.

[thacabbage]

Well, to be fair, "The Jordan Rules" didnt exist until after he won a few championships. He was beat up like nobody else by the bad boy pistons. Anyone know what MJ's stats were against the Pistons in early 90s? Imagine a younger MJ playing in the league now.

By the time the jordan rules were in effect, MJ wasnt nearly the aggressive player he was in his younger days.....
:confused:

Umm, the Jordan Rules were developed in 1988.

Another over-looked aspect about the MJ vs Lebron comparison is their defensive. I think Lebron being first team all defensive team is a complete joke. Sure the guy gets some spectacular blocks, but he isnt a great defensive player by any means.
:confused:

[baller4life315]

Since Mo Williams was an all-star this year, I have to disagree with your assessment.

Let's not be naive here. Mo Williams is a good player but he's primarily just a shooter taking advantage of all the open looks he gets playing next to LeBron. He's basically the Eastern Conference equivalent of Jason Terry -- good numbers on BAD teams as #1 or #2 option before getting dealt to a team with a player that commands double teams then, poof, their role/value changes significantly.

All of a sudden people start realizing how good they are it just so happens the NBA All-Star voters are so enamored with this "winning team = multiple All-Star selections" concept that they voted Mo in at a relatively weak position (17 PPG = All-Star....really?).

[wekko368]

Let's not be naive here. Mo Williams is a good player but he's primarily just a shooter taking advantage of all the open looks he gets playing next to LeBron.

Disagree. He's had almost the same statistics since the 06-07 season (although his 3pt% and FT% did increase this past season).

You're underestimating the impact Williams' had on the team. The Cavs acquired an all-star caliber guard whose style of play complemented Lebron's. As a result, in 2009, the Cavs won 21 more games than they did in 2008 and 16 more than 2007.

Based on your logic, Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis didn't deserve to be all-stars either.

[cavevato]

I realize the 94 Rox were very solid. Max was a very good player, ditto Smith and rookie Cassell, ditto Thorpe, ditto Horry... but my point is that you can't classify any of those guys as a star-level player, maybe not even a legit all-star (kinda like Mo Williams is supposedly an "all-star" this season... yeah right). And history has shown that it's very difficult to win it all without at least two stars, two guys that other teams just have no answer for.

In 94 we had a broken-down Drexler, but even when everyone thought he was over the hill, he was still a difference-making star. He beat the Jazz almost single-handedly when we had no other answers for them.

But really, getting back to 94... it really is funny to watch old games of our Rockets in 94, because it's easy to foget just what a HUGE percentage of the time Hakeem touched the ball on offense. We posted the guy up like 80% of the time down the floor! The ball certainly didn't always stay there, but it always started there. You just don't see that anymore today, period. No one gets the ball that much anymore... except Lebron... because Lebron is that good.
Wasnt Otis Thorpe an All Star? Could be wrong though

[Drexlerfan22]

Ever heard of the Jordan Rules? Sure he got the usual superstar calls but fouls back then are nothing like the touch fouls now. A flagrant foul in this era, would be just a plain hard foul back when MJ was still playing.
What's your point? Jordan was still the symbol of preferential treatment. He had it as good as anyone ever had it.

Another over-looked aspect about the MJ vs Lebron comparison is their defensive. I think Lebron being first team all defensive team is a complete joke. Sure the guy gets some spectacular blocks, but he isnt a great defensive player by any means. Jordan, on the other hand, was a dominant defensive player.
You clearly have not watched Lebron much this year. I'd say he was easily the 2nd-best defensive player this year behind Dwight Howard.

Jordan was a very good defender, but Pippen was much better and always had the tougher cover. Jordan guarded the other teams' 2nd bananas.

Since Mo Williams was an all-star this year, I have to disagree with your assessment.
Mo Williams does not deserve to be an all-star, period. When Mo Williams is your 2nd-best player, you should not have a shot at a title.

[baller4life315]

Disagree. He's had almost the same statistics since the 06-07 season (although his 3pt% and FT% did increase this past season).

You're underestimating the impact Williams' had on the team. The Cavs acquired an all-star caliber guard whose style of play complemented Lebron's. As a result, in 2009, the Cavs won 21 more games than they did in 2008 and 16 more than 2007.

No, i'm not underestimating his impact at all. Cleveland's motives behind trading for Mo Williams were: (1) they wanted a shooter/scorer at the one -and- (2) they wanted that shooter/scorer to be capable of handling the rock. They already had two players that fit one of those two descriptions in West and Gibson. The problem? Gibson isn't a PG and West is best suited as a two playing off the ball. Adding Mo into the mix balanced everything out perfectly.

I'm not overlooking any of that. But at the same time I also can't overlook the sheer facts that Mo was a career loser that just so happened to start winning and just so happened to have a career year once he came to Cleveland and started playing next to LeBron. He's exactly what I described: the Eastern Conference's version of Jason Terry.

Based on your logic, Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis didn't deserve to be all-stars either.

You're right. Well, at least for Rashard -- I can live with Allen getting the nod. But I won't bore you by venting about this again on a topic we've already beaten to death.

[Drexlerfan22]

Wasnt Otis Thorpe an All Star? Could be wrong though
Yes, he was once in 1992. But heck, Wally Szczerbiak was once. Thorpe was a good player, but he wasn't what I would call a "star," just like Mo Williams.

[Dave_78]

Yes, he was once in 1992. But heck, Wally Szczerbiak was once. Thorpe was a good player, but he wasn't what I would call a "star," just like Mo Williams.

I'm pretty sure they would both be considered "perennial All Stars" if you asked Clyde.

[wekko368]

I'm not overlooking any of that. But at the same time I also can't overlook the sheer facts that Mo was a career loser that just so happened to start winning and just so happened to have a career year once he came to Cleveland and started playing next to LeBron.


Career year? Hardly. As I've said before, his statistics this season are comparable to his statistics from his past few seasons.

He's been a consistently solid player for a few years now. IMO, the only reason he was an all-star this year and not before was b/c of the publicity he received from playing with Lebron.

[rn_xw]

Few remember that Jordan's Bulls...

1) Didn't reach the playoffs the first year.
2) Were swept by the Celtics the following two years in the first round.
3) Were dismantled by the Pistons the following two years in the second round/ ECF.
4) Finally pushed the Pistons to seven but still lost in the ECF.

You can argue about the strength of the teams, but other then the Bad Boy Pistons and Bird's Celtics...I don't feel like the EC was THAT tough back then. Jordan's playoff legacy was very much in question his first six years and I think Lebron fares slightly better in this category. Not saying he will be the GOAT, but Lebron has a better chance then pretty much everyone else and he's right on track.
You just said it yourself, other than his rookie year, the other 5 years he lost to championship teams.

[Jackie1221]

You just said it yourself, other than his rookie year, the other 5 years he lost to championship teams.


how many times did MJ lose in the NBA finals?

[Air Langhi]

This will be blasphemous, but I will take lebron over MJ.

MJ was an asshole, lebron doesn't seem like one.

I think eventually lebron will get his skill up.

[ItsMyFault]

This will be blasphemous, but I will take lebron over MJ.

MJ was an asshole, lebron doesn't seem like one.

I think eventually lebron will get his skill up.

How was MJ an asshole? LMAO!

Eh.. personal hate for a player isn't really a good reasoning behind an opinion.

[Jackie1221]

How was MJ an asshole? LMAO!

Eh.. personal hate for a player isn't really a good reasoning behind an opinion.


AGREE!!!

[A_3PO]

How was MJ an asshole? LMAO!

Eh.. personal hate for a player isn't really a good reasoning behind an opinion.
Tell that to the boatload of people who hate LeBron.

[baller4life315]

Career year? Hardly. As I've said before, his statistics this season are comparable to his statistics from his past few seasons.

He's been a consistently solid player for a few years now. IMO, the only reason he was an all-star this year and not before was b/c of the publicity he received from playing with Lebron.

Of course it's been a career year for him. Success in basketball is two-fold. You can either put up numbers on bad teams and be a Zach Randolph type that nobody cares about or you can put up good numbers and actually contribute to a winning cause. Williams is finally doing the latter. Factor in the open looks he gets playing next to LeBron and subsequent skyrocketing of his 3-pt percentage and his best year in scoring -- it's really hard to argue otherwise.

The only thing you're doing by trying to apply this consistency aspect into the conversation is you're essentially arguing Williams could have been an All-Star in the past, which to say the very least, was hardly an issue even a Bucks fan would dare bring to the table.

[Drexlerfan22]

How was MJ an asshole? LMAO!
Wow, you REALLY haven't read much of anything about MJ, have you?

*He's had documented affairs.
*He had/has a SERIOUS gambling problem.
*The last year the Bulls won a title, Jordan was making $33.1 million per year. Pippen was making $2.8 million. When the Bulls organization asked Jordan to take a slight pay cut to accommodate giving Pippen a little raise to keep the team together... Jordan refused. He then blamed Pippen for leaving.
*He basically treated every single player in the Wizards organization like absolute garbage.

But you're right... it's ridiculous to call him an asshole. Can't fathom where that came from.

[legend215]

Wow, you REALLY haven't read much of anything about MJ, have you?

*He's had documented affairs.
*He had/has a SERIOUS gambling problem.
*The last year the Bulls won a title, Jordan was making $33.1 million per year. Pippen was making $2.8 million. When the Bulls organization asked Jordan to take a slight pay cut to accommodate giving Pippen a little raise to keep the team together... Jordan refused. He then blamed Pippen for leaving.
*He basically treated every single player in the Wizards organization like absolute garbage.

But you're right... it's ridiculous to call him an asshole. Can't fathom where that came from.


Wow man.....where do I start.....as far as your response to my earlier post about MJ and Lebron.....the point I'm trying to make is that Lebron doesn't have to face any one close to the physical prowess of Charles Oakley, Bill Laimbeer, John Starks, Vernon Maxwell etc.....Jordan did.... He got manhandled on a nightly basis and still did what he did. A normal foul during his time is a flagrant 1 now. You had to be a man to play back then...not just a man child who gets everything handed to him from day one. We've basically been told that Lebron is great since his freshman year....no one knew that MJ would be who he ended up being. He willed himself into the GOAT.

As far as your statement that MJ was getting paid 33 mil a year....the Bulls paid him 30 mil in in 96 and 33 mil in 07 to make up for the money that he wouldn't take all of the previous years (his highest contract before those 2 years was a little under 4 mil) because he wanted his teammates to get paid. He felt that he made enough from Nike and his endorsement deals.

Yeah, what a A-hole right :rolleyes:

On a side note....not everyone has to "read" up on the earlier guys or "youtube" them.....a lot of us actually watched these guys play and appreciate what greatness really is.

[A_3PO]

Wow man.....where do I start.....as far as your response to my earlier post about MJ and Lebron.....the point I'm trying to make is that Lebron doesn't have to face any one close to the physical prowess of Charles Oakley, Bill Laimbeer, John Starks, Vernon Maxwell etc.....Jordan did.... He got manhandled on a nightly basis and still did what he did. A normal foul during his time is a flagrant 1 now. You had to be a man to play back then...not just a man child who gets everything handed to him from day one. We've basically been told that Lebron is great since his freshman year....no one knew that MJ would be who he ended up being. He willed himself into the GOAT.

As far as your statement that MJ was getting paid 33 mil a year....the Bulls paid him 30 mil in in 96 and 33 mil in 07 to make up for the money that he wouldn't take all of the previous years because he wanted his teammates to get paid. He felt that he made enough from his Nike and his endorsement deals.

Yeah, what a A-hole right :rolleyes:
Speaking of: "Wow man.....where do I start"...

To call this over-the-top hyperbole would be a massive understatement. Complete, total and utter nonsense. Your hatred of LeBron either has you making up stuff out of thin air you have no idea about (likely) or your mind embellishes memories to a ridiculous extent.

What would poor LeBron do against the physicality of John Starks and Vernon Maxwell besides go around them (or through them) like they weren't even on the floor. They wouldn't know what to do with him.

And "a normal foul during [MJ's] time is a flagrant 1 now"? Sorry, but that is an idiotic statement. I doubt anyone here loved MJ more than I did back then, but after his first couple of championships, even the worst Bulls homers admitted there were "Jordan Rules".

Could have said a lot more.

[legend215]

Speaking of: "Wow man.....where do I start"...

To call this over-the-top hyperbole would be a massive understatement. Complete, total and utter nonsense. Your hatred of LeBron either has you making up stuff out of thin air you have no idea about (likely) or your mind embellishes memories to a ridiculous extent.

What would poor LeBron do against the physicality of John Starks and Vernon Maxwell besides go around them (or through them) like they weren't even on the floor. They wouldn't know what to do with him.

And "a normal foul during [MJ's] time is a flagrant 1 now"? Sorry, but that is an idiotic statement. I doubt anyone here loved MJ more than I did back then, but after his first couple of championships, even the worst Bulls homers admitted there were "Jordan Rules".

Could have said a lot more.


My man...who said anything about hatred. I watch and have played ball just (like you?) and I'm reporting what I've seen with my own eyes.

Honestly I have little cousins who watch game tapes from the 80's and 90's with us all of the time and they see the difference in the game from then to now.

And what's with the personal stuff about me not now having an idea and crap....the fact is you don't know me, my basketball or life background so let's hold off on all of that if you don't mind

[A_3PO]

My man...who said anything about hatred. I watch and have played ball just (like you?) and I'm reporting what I've seen with my own eyes.

Honestly I have little cousins who watch game tapes from the 80's and 90's with us all of the time and they see the difference in the game from then to now.

And what's with the personal stuff about me not now having an idea and crap....the fact is you don't know me, my basketball or life background so let's hold off on all of that if you don't mind
Your statements are pretty off the tracks, which is why I replied that way. Seriously, do you honestly believe John Starks could even hope to guard LeBron? Do you honestly believe a "normal" foul back then would be a flagrant 1 now? Do you honestly believe MJ "got manhandled on a nightly basis"? Do you think LeBron is "just a man child who gets everything handed to him from day one"? All of that is very ridiculous stuff and if you believe the comment about LeBron, you obviously don't like him.

If your post was just lunatic rhetorical extremism, say so. If you had, there wouldn't have been any misunderstanding.

[doublebogey]

I don't think it's time to compare LeBron to MJ yet.

MJ was a complete player in his 2nd 3-peat. MJ had a post game. Unstoppable turnaround fadeaway jumper. If MJ played with no hand check, he would probably average 40.

LeBron has the potentials, no doubt. But, will LeBron be as great as MJ? It really depends on what LeBron will achieve in his future career. LBJ still needs to develop a post game and a consistent jumper. A couple of championships will certainly help.

[legend215]

Your statements are pretty off the tracks, which is why I replied that way. Seriously, do you honestly believe John Starks could even hope to guard LeBron? Do you honestly believe a "normal" foul back then would be a flagrant 1 now? Do you honestly believe MJ "got manhandled on a nightly basis"? Do you think LeBron is "just a man child who gets everything handed to him from day one"? All of that is very ridiculous stuff and if you believe the comment about LeBron, you obviously don't like him.

If your post was just lunatic rhetorical extremism, say so. If you had, there wouldn't have been any misunderstanding.


What's wrong with saying that those, sir, are your opinions also. I've had conversations with a lot of people who feel both ways. It doesn't mean that you're right in your assertions either. If you'd like to have a decent conversation let's do so but making personal attacks (instead of this crap - If your post was just lunatic rhetorical extremism, say so. If you had, there wouldn't have been any misunderstanding - what...do you have a frikkin dictionary next to your computer or something son) it'd be ok.

[A_3PO]

What's wrong with saying that those, sir, are your opinions also. I've had conversations with a lot of people who feel both ways. It doesn't mean that you're right in your assertions either. If you'd like to have a decent conversation let's do so but making personal attacks (instead of this crap - If your post was just lunatic rhetorical extremism, say so. If you had, there wouldn't have been any misunderstanding - what...do you have a frikkin dictionary next to your computer or something son) it'd be ok.
OK, let's have a decent conversation and move beyond rhetoric. Tell me how John Starks, man of such great physical prowess, would have any chance at stopping LeBron? How did MJ have such a long and productive career if he "got manhandled on a nightly basis". In your opinion, did Jordan Rules exist, or no? What exactly has been handed to LeBron since his freshman year?

[Jackie1221]

OK, let's have a decent conversation and move beyond rhetoric. Tell me how John Starks, man of such great physical prowess, would have any chance at stopping LeBron? How did MJ have such a long and productive career if he "got manhandled on a nightly basis". In your opinion, did Jordan Rules exist, or no? What exactly has been handed to LeBron since his freshman year?


Because MJ was the best, that's how he lasted. How does Lebron not get anything handed to him??? just watch a full game. If he does not make a layup, its an automatic foul.

oh and last night when he was "fouled" be Howard on the 3??? everyone human would agree that was not a foul...

[Drexlerfan22]

Wow man.....where do I start.....as far as your response to my earlier post about MJ and Lebron.....the point I'm trying to make is that Lebron doesn't have to face any one close to the physical prowess of Charles Oakley, Bill Laimbeer, John Starks, Vernon Maxwell etc.....Jordan did.... He got manhandled on a nightly basis and still did what he did. A normal foul during his time is a flagrant 1 now. You had to be a man to play back then...not just a man child who gets everything handed to him from day one. We've basically been told that Lebron is great since his freshman year....no one knew that MJ would be who he ended up being. He willed himself into the GOAT.

As far as your statement that MJ was getting paid 33 mil a year....the Bulls paid him 30 mil in in 96 and 33 mil in 07 to make up for the money that he wouldn't take all of the previous years (his highest contract before those 2 years was a little under 4 mil) because he wanted his teammates to get paid. He felt that he made enough from Nike and his endorsement deals.

Yeah, what a A-hole right :rolleyes:

On a side note....not everyone has to "read" up on the earlier guys or "youtube" them.....a lot of us actually watched these guys play and appreciate what greatness really is.
Funny how you bend over backwards and make stuff up to make MJ look great, but you don't do the same for Lebron. Now why is that?

"A normal foul during his time is a flagrant 1 now?" Baloney, sir. Pure baloney. And John Starks would be knocked unconscious the first time he tried getting in Lebron's way going to the rack.

And I say "read" because you'd have to go read something on the guy to know why he was such a humongous asshole. If all you ever did was watch ESPN and listen to the commentators fawn over him, then you probably wouldn't know those things, would you?

[wekko368]

In your opinion, did Jordan Rules exist, or no?

You keep referencing them, but since you seem to be a proponent of Lebron, I'm curious as to what you think the "Jordan Rules" are. Please explain.

[Jackie1221]

MJ is best right now. Lebron is on the rise.

That's how i feel about it..

but MJ would not miss 5 fourth quarter free throws to lose a game. But Lebron is growing.

[goodbug]

MJ will not average 40, not even close. With the zone enabled, MJ wouldn't even get entry pass down low. If the oppositions wanted to shut him down, they can just double him without the ball in the post, something wasn't allowed in his heydays.

MJ was great, but we've seen so many clips that MJ just needed to
backed down a smaller defender, and there ain't much can be done.
Let MJ tried backing down strong SF nowadays, he won't have as much success.


I don't think it's time to compare LeBron to MJ yet.

MJ was a complete player in his 2nd 3-peat. MJ had a post game. Unstoppable turnaround fadeaway jumper. If MJ played with no hand check, he would probably average 40.

LeBron has the potentials, no doubt. But, will LeBron be as great as MJ? It really depends on what LeBron will achieve in his future career. LBJ still needs to develop a post game and a consistent jumper. A couple of championships will certainly help.

[mazyar]

Because MJ was the best, that's how he lasted. How does Lebron not get anything handed to him??? just watch a full game. If he does not make a layup, its an automatic foul.

oh and last night when he was "fouled" be Howard on the 3??? everyone human would agree that was not a foul...
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/36nT2osudy0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/36nT2osudy0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Terrible just terrible

[Air Langhi]

My man...who said anything about hatred. I watch and have played ball just (like you?) and I'm reporting what I've seen with my own eyes.

Honestly I have little cousins who watch game tapes from the 80's and 90's with us all of the time and they see the difference in the game from then to now.

And what's with the personal stuff about me not now having an idea and crap....the fact is you don't know me, my basketball or life background so let's hold off on all of that if you don't mind

MJ punched steve kerr. Even MJ admitted that. He made kwame cry. Bill cartwright wanted to kill him. He belittled his teamates. He pissed of Horace grant. He might have been a great player and have gotten his teamates to do what he wanted, but he wasn't a nice guy on the court.

[Drexlerfan22]

MJ will not average 40, not even close. With the zone enabled, MJ wouldn't even get entry pass down low. If the oppositions wanted to shut him down, they can just double him without the ball in the post, something wasn't allowed in his heydays.

MJ was great, but we've seen so many clips that MJ just needed to
backed down a smaller defender, and there ain't much can be done.
Let MJ tried backing down strong SF nowadays, he won't have as much success.
This is a great point that most people forget about. They repeat ad nauseum "well the game was less physical then!"... and ignore that back then, it was illegal to drape multiple defenders on a guy before he even caught the ball. That gives defenses today a lot more tools to shut down a single dominant player.

You'd think Rockets fans would remember this, seeing as we're victimized by it every time an opposing team "sandwiches" Yao with one defender behind and another in front. That's an automatic whistle when Jordan played.

[Drexlerfan22]

MJ punched steve kerr. Even MJ admitted that. He made kwame cry. Bill cartwright wanted to kill him. He belittled his teamates. He pissed of Horace grant. He might have been a great player and have gotten his teamates to do what he wanted, but he wasn't a nice guy on the court.
Exactly. All this stuff is documented. If you can seriously look at all the incidents like this that Jordan had during his career, plus the affairs, plus the gambling, and somehow conclude that he's a nice guy... I'm sorry, there's something wrong with you.

[Jackie1221]

Exactly. All this stuff is documented. If you can seriously look at all the incidents like this that Jordan had during his career, plus the affairs, plus the gambling, and somehow conclude that he's a nice guy... I'm sorry, there's something wrong with you.

but he seemed sooo nice in space jam... :D

[Shaud]

Exactly. All this stuff is documented. If you can seriously look at all the incidents like this that Jordan had during his career, plus the affairs, plus the gambling, and somehow conclude that he's a nice guy... I'm sorry, there's something wrong with you.
The love of MJ has blinded some folks.

[Jackie1221]

how bout this question, kinda interesting to think about.

"If Lebron James ended his career tomorrow, where would he rank on the best players ever list?"

[A_3PO]

You keep referencing them, but since you seem to be a proponent of Lebron, I'm curious as to what you think the "Jordan Rules" are. Please explain.
There was a set of rules for determining what was a foul on a player, and there was another set of rules for what was a foul on MJ. As compared to contemporaries, MJ got the most favorable referee treatment in NBA history. Sometimes it was ridiculous. In my book, it didn't stop him from being the the G.O.A.T, but he got treated like royalty. Some people will say he earned it because it didn't start happening until everyone acknowledged how great he was.

Kinda of hard to explain it now because of what MJ meant to the NBA at the time. He was almost larger than life.

[Jackie1221]

There was a set of rules for determining what was a foul on a player, and there was another set of rules for what was a foul on MJ. As compared to contemporaries, MJ got the most favorable referee treatment in NBA history. Sometimes it was ridiculous. In my book, it didn't stop him from being the the G.O.A.T, but he got treated like royalty. Some people will say he earned it because it didn't start happening until everyone acknowledged how great he was.

Kinda of hard to explain it now because of what MJ meant to the NBA at the time. He was almost larger than life.

does he hold the record for highest salary during 1 season contract?

[A_3PO]

does he hold the record for highest salary during 1 season contract?
In the NBA? I reckon so. I can't think of anyone else in our 3 major sports making $36 million in one season. David Beckham supposedly makes $50 million per year.

[goodbug]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules#cite_note-1

Jordan Rules ain't something special, folks. It's all about when and how to send a double. Including some soft double that defense player seems to be moving all the time but actually trying to imitate a zone defense. Today, you can just stay between the opposition's best and worst scorer, and that's a constant soft double.

Jordan's era was more physical, and did allow handcheck. But handcheck nowadays is a privileged call preserved for certain baby players like Wade and LBJ. They ain't called consistently otherwise there'd be 100 ft any single game.

[wekko368]

There was a set of rules for determining what was a foul on a player, and there was another set of rules for what was a foul on MJ. As compared to contemporaries, MJ got the most favorable referee treatment in NBA history. Sometimes it was ridiculous. In my book, it didn't stop him from being the the G.O.A.T, but he got treated like royalty. Some people will say he earned it because it didn't start happening until everyone acknowledged how great he was.

Kinda of hard to explain it now because of what MJ meant to the NBA at the time. He was almost larger than life.

That's what I figured you meant, but your definition isn't quite correct.

The "Jordan Rules" were the physical defensive strategies that Chuck Daly's Pistons used on Jordan.

[A_3PO]

That's what I figured you meant, but your definition isn't quite correct.

The "Jordan Rules" were the physical defensive strategies that Chuck Daly's Pistons used on Jordan.
The term isn't limited just to that. It also applies to the preferential treatment MJ got in the NBA, on and off the floor. The vast majority of the time the term is used, it's the latter. I can't remember the last time I heard someone use the term to refer to the Piston's defense.

There was an actual book with that title some years ago. It was EXTREMELY controversial. Very little of it was about the Pistons defensive strategy. (To be clear, I don't want to discuss the off-the-floor stuff in this thread. I'll be the first to admit MJ had very serious character flaws and leave it at that).

[wekko368]

The term isn't limited just to that. It also applies to the preferential treatment MJ got in the NBA, on and off the floor. The vast majority of the time the term is used, it's the latter. I can't remember the last time I heard someone use the term to refer to the Piston's defense.

I was just letting you know the correct definition of a phrase you've been misusing. If you want to keep doing so, that's your own prerogative.


There was an actual book with that title some years ago. It was EXTREMELY controversial. Very little of it was about the Pistons defensive strategy.

Yes there was a book with the same title. Did you read it? I did. The purpose of the book was not to focus on the Pistons' strategies or the refereeing of that era. The book showed what the Bulls' team was like behind closed doors and the conflicts they faced.

IMO, Sam Smith used the title as a pun.

[Drexlerfan22]

I was just letting you know the correct definition of a phrase you've been misusing. If you want to keep doing so, that's your own prerogative.
He's not "misusing" it. It's simply a phrase that has a few meanings.

[A_3PO]

I was just letting you know the correct definition of a phrase you've been misusing. If you want to keep doing so, that's your own prerogative.



Yes there was a book with the same title. Did you read it? I did. The purpose of the book was not to focus on the Pistons' strategies or the refereeing of that era. The book showed what the Bulls' team was like behind closed doors and the conflicts they faced.

IMO, Sam Smith used the title as a pun.
That's fine. Lot's (probably a majority) of people "misuse" the term the exact same way.

I didn't read the whole thing but I read snippets & paragraphs and heard very heated pro and con arguments about the book. Wow!

[wekko368]

He's not "misusing" it. It's simply a phrase that has a few meanings.

So your contention is that "Jordan Rules" means both:
- The physical defensive strategies that the Pistons' employed on Jordan
- The beneficial treatment that Jordan received from the referees

Since these two "definitions" contradict each other, I have a hard time believing that both are valid.

[Jackie1221]

If Lebron retired today, would he be the best player to ever live?

[wekko368]

Let MJ tried backing down strong SF nowadays, he won't have as much success.

In 02-03, a 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 ppg.

[Art7]

lol jackie
If Lebron retired today, would he be the best player to ever live?


now answer this
If Mj retired when he was 24, would he be the best player to ever live?

[tommyz2kool]

lol jackie
If Lebron retired today, would he be the best player to ever live?


now answer this
If Mj retired when he was 24, would he be the best player to ever live?

But Jordan didn't retire when he was 24, so that's irrelevant. lol at all the lebron homers trying to compare him to jordan. Jordan could score anywhere on anyone. Lebron still has no midrange game.

[Jackie1221]

lol jackie
If Lebron retired today, would he be the best player to ever live?


now answer this
If Mj retired when he was 24, would he be the best player to ever live?


Agree. that is what I'm saying.. Give it time before people start crowning Lebron.

MJ is still the best at the moment. God's honest truth.

[Jackie1221]

But Jordan didn't retire when he was 24, so that's irrelevant. lol at all the lebron homers trying to compare him to jordan. Jordan could score anywhere on anyone. Lebron still has no midrange game.


yep, he made zero jump shots last night, yet he's the best player in the world, ever. ha

[goodbug]

Single coverage and second option my friend. He's good, don't get me wrong. But he's gonna score 40 on double team night in and night our versus today's defense in his prime.

Think about it, with zone, every team is using "Jordan rules" nowadays against premier wing player. 1on1 ISO is not happening today.

In 02-03, a 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 ppg.

[timmy]

Nah. It's Kobe who got most of the ticky tack calls then anyone else.

Never could understand why so many Chinese like to kiss Kobe's ass, even on Rockets' board.

'Bron is in the discussion with MJ for GOAT, Kobe will never be.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules#cite_note-1

Jordan Rules ain't something special, folks. It's all about when and how to send a double. Including some soft double that defense player seems to be moving all the time but actually trying to imitate a zone defense. Today, you can just stay between the opposition's best and worst scorer, and that's a constant soft double.

Jordan's era was more physical, and did allow handcheck. But handcheck nowadays is a privileged call preserved for certain baby players like Wade and LBJ. They ain't called consistently otherwise there'd be 100 ft any single game.

[ItsMyFault]

Nah. It's Kobe who got most of the ticky tack calls then anyone else.

Never could understand why so many Chinese like to kiss Kobe's ass, even on Rockets' board.

'Bron is in the discussion with MJ for GOAT, Kobe will never be.

Fail... if Kobe can't be in the discussion, then how can LeBron? That's epic failure and complete hate.

[juicystream]

stat for stat. lebron is just not as efficient as jordan and probably will never be. in jordans entire career he shot .497 from the field (which would be higher if you take away his wizards days). jordans rookie year he shot .515 from the field!!!

In fairness LeBron shoots very well from the field, and the primary difference in their shooting % is because LeBron takes way more 3-pointers than Jordan. Surprisingly, LeBron is the better 3-point shooter. :eek:

[Jackie1221]

In fairness LeBron shoots very well from the field, and the primary difference in their shooting % is because LeBron takes way more 3-pointers than Jordan. Surprisingly, LeBron is the better 3-point shooter. :eek:

how bout jump shot? Shots outside the paint, but inside the 3... Lebron is horrible at those.

[Shaud]

how bout jump shot? Shots outside the paint, but inside the 3... Lebron is horrible at those.
He's a very streaker shooter, but he is still dominating while being a streaky shooter.

[Jackie1221]

He's a very streaker shooter, but he is still dominating while being a streaky shooter.


His jumper will get better, i think.

[plutoblue11]

In 02-03, a 40 year old Jordan averaged 20 ppg.

Isn't it also strange that these players, like Lebron and Kobe are supposedly better to some youth, even though, none of these players have the same shooting percentages as MJ.

Kobe has never shot better than 47% in a season, while MJ did it for 5 consecutive seasons.

Also, even though MJ was definitely at the end of his career, his shooting percentages were still better than Allen Iverson's and only slightly worse than Kobe's, TMac's, and VC's. From about 38-40, he was roughly 20-22 ppg scorer, and in some games even outscored some of the league's best shooting guards at the time.

If MJ were in his 20s, he'd eat most of these guys alive. He's more driven, more intelligent, and a better athlete most of these shooting guards.

[Jackie1221]

Isn't it also strange that these players, like Lebron and Kobe are supposedly better to some youth, even though, none of these players have the same shooting percentages as MJ.

Kobe has never shot better than 47% in a season, while MJ did it for 5 consecutive seasons.

Also, even though MJ was definitely at the end of his career, his shooting percentages were still better than Allen Iverson's and only slightly worse than Kobe's, TMac's, and VC's. From about 38-40, he was roughly 20-22 ppg scorer, and in some games even outscored some of the league's best shooting guards at the time.

If MJ were in his 20s, he'd eat most of these guys alive. He's more driven, more intelligent, and a better athlete most of these shooting guards.


As Magic Johnson always says

"There is Michael Jordan, then the rest of us."

[plutoblue11]

Isn't it also strange that these players, like Lebron and Kobe are supposedly better to some youth, even though, none of these players have the same shooting percentages as MJ.

Kobe has never shot better than 47% in a season, while MJ shot at least .500 for 5 consecutive seasons.
As he only shot below 46% 4x times in his career, two seasons with the Wizards, 17 game year in 94-95 (after a one and half year retirement), and his 2nd season where he only started 8 games and played 17 after a devastating injury.


Also, even though MJ was definitely at the end of his career, his shooting percentages were still better than Allen Iverson's and only slightly worse than Kobe's, TMac's, and VC's. From about 38-40, he was roughly 20-22 ppg scorer, and in some games even outscored some of the league's best shooting guards at the time.

If MJ were in his 20s, he'd eat most of these guys alive. He's more driven, more intelligent, and a better athlete most of these shooting guards.

Fixed!!!!

[Air Langhi]

According to PER james' season was as good as wilt and jordan's best season and he is only 24, and his jump shot isn't as good. Image how good he will be when he is 27 or 28.

[Northside Storm]

According to PER james' season was as good as wilt and jordan's best season and he is only 24, and his jump shot isn't as good. Image how good he will be when he is 27 or 28.

To be fair, by the time he's 27 or 28, unless he's some sort of god in disguise, James should lose a pretty significant portion of his athleticism. By the time Jordan was in his early 30s, his jumpshot only improved significantly because it had to...he wasn't getting that explosion young Micheal had. Jordan started in the NBA when he was 22, and by 32 he had turned himself into a predominantly jump-shooting/back to the basket player, mostly because he no longer had the speed and hops to play the face-up, "I'ma dunk on you" game. James should be able to do the same thing, but it's incredibly hard to envision Lebron with both the athleticism he has now and the skills/knowledge of a Micheal Jordan.

[Jackie1221]

To be fair, by the time he's 27 or 28, unless he's some sort of god in disguise, James should lose a pretty significant portion of his athleticism. By the time Jordan was in his early 30s, his jumpshot only improved significantly because it had to...he wasn't getting that explosion young Micheal had. Jordan started in the NBA when he was 22, and by 32 he had turned himself into a predominantly jump-shooting/back to the basket player, mostly because he no longer had the speed and hops to play the face-up, "I'ma dunk on you" game. James should be able to do the same thing, but it's incredibly hard to envision Lebron with both the athleticism he has now and the skills/knowledge of a Micheal Jordan.


best post I've seen today!

[BrooksBall]

By the end of next season, LeBron will probably have taken more FTs than McGrady did in his entire career. He has already nearly caught up to him.

[ItsMyFault]

LeBron won't have a Kobe Bryant/Michael Jordan jumpshot in his career. You can quote me on that.... I guarantee you, he won't be able to do those mid-range pull up shots at will like that... he's just not that type of player, his jump shot and the way he shoots it is just not made for him to play that way. Most of all, his body is not in the shape of MJ or Kobe... he can't get as much elevation as players like T-Mac, Kobe, Gordon... players who get high elevation on their shot to be able to rise up over defenders and just hit j's.

[Dave_78]

LeBron won't have a Kobe Bryant/Michael Jordan jumpshot in his career. You can quote me on that.... I guarantee you, he won't be able to do those mid-range pull up shots at will like that... he's just not that type of player, his jump shot and the way he shoots it is just not made for him to play that way. Most of all, his body is not in the shape of MJ or Kobe... he can't get as much elevation as players like T-Mac, Kobe, Gordon... players who get high elevation on their shot to be able to rise up over defenders and just hit j's.

I'll agree that Lebron's form on his jump shot will prevent him from getting much better at hitting it consistently. He would have to re-invent his shot in order to make it consistently accurate like Kobe's is and Mike's was.

His jump shot looks different from game to game and that will have to be fixed if he wants to take it to the next level offensively.

Now before the stat patrols comes after me all I have to say is watch Kobe's looks at the basket vs. Lebron's. Kobe sticks that jumper with a man right in his mug all night long. Lebron is still being played for the drive so when he rises up he almost always has a much cleaner look. If (when) defenders are able to keep up with Lebron as he slows down a bit he will have the same hand in his face Kobe sees night after night and unless his jumper improves a lot he won't hit them nearly as much as the Mamba does.

[FLASH21]

This is a tired subject. Not until someone "surpasses" the accomplishments of MJ, if that ever happens, will it end.

I like LeBron, I believe he is better than Kobe not only cause he has done so much with such little talent around him (also his age) but also cause he is an all around player, TEAM PLAYER, he can do it all.

He understands what it takes to win. He has that. All that being said There will be only 1 Michael Jordan .

[spysta]

So your contention is that "Jordan Rules" means both:
- The physical defensive strategies that the Pistons' employed on Jordan
- The beneficial treatment that Jordan received from the referees

Since these two "definitions" contradict each other, I have a hard time believing that both are valid.

Exactly lol I always understood the jordan rules as chuck daly strategy to be physical with mike and put him on the floor every time he entered the lane

[Blake]

Uh, if MJ played in today's NBA, with the hand-check rules and the fouls called when you sneeze on a superstar, he would have averaged 45 points a game.

Lebron is great, but MJ was a lockdown defender who gave 100% at all times when he played.

I don't think you should be allowed to post in this thread unless you are actually old enough to have watched a lot of MJ's career.

[Dream34Hou]

Uh, if MJ played in today's NBA, with the hand-check rules and the fouls called when you sneeze on a superstar, he would have averaged 45 points a game.

Lebron is great, but MJ was a lockdown defender who gave 100% at all times when he played.

I don't think you should be allowed to post in this thread unless you are actually old enough to have watched a lot of MJ's career.

I've seen Jordan's career, and I would not agree with this in bold. I think depending on the teams he played on in today's era it'd be about the same averages. Though those points would probably come easier, despite what folks may say about "zone" defense in the NBA, which really affects dominant bigs more than swingmen who can actually shoot the basketball. Or Jordan who was excellent at moving without the ball and espcially at using screens off the ball. He'd probably have to develop a more consistent 3 pt. shot though.

And overall there is no best player ever to me, not in a 5 man sport. If I had to choose it may be Wilt Chamberlain, but I can't argue against other great bigs like Russell, Kareem, and even more recently Hakeem, Shaq, & Duncan. At least there should be a separation comparing bigs to non-bigs. Jordan, Magic, Larry Bird are the best non-centers we probably have seen.

As good as Jordan was, he was overhyped in my opinion. Mainly by the ones who declared him the inarguable greatest ever. Greatest ever, debateable, as is with a slect few. But inarguable? That's just disrespecful to prior greats of the game.

(Not entirely referring to you, just posting my general thoughts on this subject).

[Blake]

great first post. :D welcome

You make some good points, but I really don't think MJ was overrated at all. He was legitimately that good on both ends of the court. And with all of the drives to the hoop that he would make (though later in his career they ended with pull up jumpshots as opposed to dunks), if the defenders were called for hand checking, he would have been completely unguardable. It wasn't that he was such an athletic freak (I would compare him to Kobe and lebron is much stronger), he was the most competitive/complete player I have ever watched.

You make a good point...it's tough to compare 2's/3's to 5's, but Jordan was pretty much unstoppable (pre-Wizards, of course) come playoff time in an era where his size wasn't unusual.

The guy takes almost 2 years off to play baseball, and he comes back and he dominated the 95 playoffs (though they lost to Orlando). People always play the "MJ wasn't his usual self" card during debates about our 95 championship, but the stats don't lie...and he was better that year than he was in the next 3 championship seasons in the playoffs.

EDIT: I say this without having seen players like Oscar Robertson or Wilt play, but I am referring to the Lebron comparison. I cannot compare him to players in the 70's and earlier...I started watching the NBA in 86.

[Dream34Hou]

great first post. :D welcome

You make some good points, but I really don't think MJ was overrated at all. He was legitimately that good on both ends of the court. And with all of the drives to the hoop that he would make (though later in his career they ended with pull up jumpshots as opposed to dunks), if the defenders were called for hand checking, he would have been completely unguardable. It wasn't that he was such an athletic freak (I would compare him to Kobe and lebron is much stronger), he was the most competitive/complete player I have ever watched.

You make a good point...it's tough to compare 2's/3's to 5's, but Jordan was pretty much unstoppable (pre-Wizards, of course) come playoff time in an era where his size wasn't unusual.

The guy takes almost 2 years off to play baseball, and he comes back and he dominated the 95 playoffs (though they lost to Orlando). People always play the "MJ wasn't his usual self" card during debates about our 95 championship, but the stats don't lie...and he was better that year than he was in the next 3 championship seasons in the playoffs.

EDIT: I say this without having seen players like Oscar Robertson or Wilt play, but I am referring to the Lebron comparison. I cannot compare him to players in the 70's and earlier...I started watching the NBA in 86.

Thanks, and I didn't necessarily mean that Jordan was over rated as a ball player (except by some die hards), but over hyped through most of his Bulls career. The hype may have lead to some casual fans overrating him or even some younger fans today who only know of Jordan through DVD's or Youtube videos. And in '95 he played well, but was noticably tired in my opinion, particularly vs. Orlando as the series went on. But it shouldn't be used as an excuse. I still don't think they would have beat the Rockets anyways, especially considering that Horace was gone and they didn't have Rodman yet, and the Bulls would have really nobody to effectively play Hakeem anyways. Not to mention the Drexler addition that year. I really can't disagree with anything else you said, but would like to add Larry Bird's name next to Jordan as far as ultra competitive killers.

[Air Langhi]

Lebron is a better passer and rebounder than MJ. He might not have the shot or the competitive drive, or defense, but he is getting there.

[Blake]

Thanks, and I didn't necessarily mean that Jordan was over rated as a ball player (except by some die hards), but over hyped through most of his Bulls career. The hype may have lead to some casual fans overrating him or even some younger fans today who only know of Jordan through DVD's or Youtube videos. And in '95 he played well, but was noticably tired in my opinion, particularly vs. Orlando as the series went on. But it shouldn't be used as an excuse. I still don't think they would have beat the Rockets anyways, especially considering that Horace was gone and they didn't have Rodman yet, and the Bulls would have really nobody to effectively play Hakeem anyways. Not to mention the Drexler addition that year. I really can't disagree with anything else you said, but would like to add Larry Bird's name next to Jordan as far as ultra competitive killers.

Yeah, Bird was that way as well (and he loved to talk trash). Love it

[ItsMyFault]

Lebron is a better passer and rebounder than MJ. He might not have the shot or the competitive drive, or defense, but he is getting there.

Hmm.. so because he has the ball in his hands more than MJ, he's a better passer? I don't see how he's a better passer, I'd put them equal in that dept... the Bulls of the 90's and the Cavs of now run different offensive schemes. lol.. if MJ got the ball and did his 1 on 1 action like LeBron does now... he'd also be getting triple doubles. The Triangle Offense isn't meant for you to get assists... it's there for you to score points, at least in the position of the triangle Michael was in. I'd also like to add that he'll never get there on the jump shot... with such an ugly release like that, it'll always stay inconsistent... I've said it before.. his body is meant to be a driver... not a jump shooter and thus he'll never be like Kobe or MJ.

[Fatty FatBastard]

Thanks, and I didn't necessarily mean that Jordan was over rated as a ball player (except by some die hards), but over hyped through most of his Bulls career. The hype may have lead to some casual fans overrating him or even some younger fans today who only know of Jordan through DVD's or Youtube videos. And in '95 he played well, but was noticably tired in my opinion, particularly vs. Orlando as the series went on. But it shouldn't be used as an excuse. I still don't think they would have beat the Rockets anyways, especially considering that Horace was gone and they didn't have Rodman yet, and the Bulls would have really nobody to effectively play Hakeem anyways. Not to mention the Drexler addition that year. I really can't disagree with anything else you said, but would like to add Larry Bird's name next to Jordan as far as ultra competitive killers.

People tend to forget that the 95 Bulls were without Horace Grant, who greatly helped Orlando get into the Finals. The next year the Spurs do the UNTHINKABLE and trade their second best player (Rodman) to the Bulls for scraps, eerily similar to the recent Gasol deal.

Jordan was way over-hyped as soon as he signed with Chicago.

[thacabbage]

i really hope lebron realizes what he has at stake in the big picture. he's 24 now. i think the assumption that both he and kobe can stay dominant into their mid 30's like mj did is completely erroneous. you can't underestimate those 2 years jordan took off and the fact that he didn't have the extra mileage on his knees that lebron and kobe did from ages 18-22.

this is going to be a terribe analogy because of the scale of the comparison, but i really think just like charles barkley now realizes he wasted his best years due to his indiscipline and never won a championship, similarly lebron might one day realize he had actually had a realistic chance to be the GOAT but didn't put in enough preparation at an early enough age. obviously the comparison is weak - we are talking about work ethic and winning just one title with charles as opposed to skill improvement and winning 5 or 6 titles with lebron, but the point of analogy is about regret. you can't not do something that might make you regret your inaction later in life.

kobe bryant is a guy who has completely maxed out his abilities. he's normal sized and not much more athletic than your average all-star swingman. but he has crafted possibly the most lethal offensive arsenal in NBA history through what was obviously countless hours in the gym. you look at lebron, and he's just barely grazing the tip of the iceberg with what he could be doing. there's the body and the passing which are god-given, and then the handles that everyone else has. after that? his low post game consists of a baseline spin move while his outside jumper is extremely shaky and sometimes doesn't even use the same form. forget getting to kobe and mike's level with the footwork, if he just merely developed some basic post moves and a consistent mid range jumper, he would be completely unguardable. and he's already unguardable.

am i being too hard on him? yes. but that should be the case when someone has an opportunity to reach a level that others can't because of how great he already is. you can easily say that jordan didn't refine that footwork and those postmoves until his late 20's and that lebron has time, but jordan wasn't chasing michael jordan. that's the difference.

obviously his teammates suck but that's not under his control right now. all he can do is make them not appear to suck as hard as they do in actuality. but for the time being, through his physical prime, it appears he will have to work with what he has.

i really hope lebron james realizes what he has a chance to do and adds some more elements to his game because he is really short changing himself. don't settle for being the indisputable best player in the league when you have a chance to be the GOAT.

[plutoblue11]

People tend to forget that the 95 Bulls were without Horace Grant, who greatly helped Orlando get into the Finals. The next year the Spurs do the UNTHINKABLE and trade their second best player (Rodman) to the Bulls for scraps, eerily similar to the recent Gasol deal.

Jordan was way over-hyped as soon as he signed with Chicago.


Not really, Rodman was pretty much looked at as a malcontent (cancer). For the Spurs, he was the blame for them losing and he wasn't great team-mate or tag along person to the command of the Admiral. From injuries to ejections to his clashes with management, Rodman's rumblings were quickly pushed out of town after 2 seasons. He was essentially a T.O. type player. Great on the field, but troubled off the field and sometimes on the court.

[plutoblue11]

Not really, Rodman was pretty much looked at as a malcontent (cancer). For the Spurs, he was the blame for them losing and he wasn't great team-mate or tag along person to the command of the Admiral. From injuries to ejections to his clashes with management, Rodman's rumblings were quickly pushed out of town after 2 seasons. He was essentially a T.O. type player. Great on the field, but troubled off the field and sometimes on the court.


Also, Rodman was 34 years old vs. Pau who was only 28.


Big Difference.

[tchou]

I agree with that but I'm just saying, if you look at them through their 1st 6 years you could make a case for LeBron having the better career at that point.

Fact is MJ never got out the 1st round without Pippen.

Fact is LeBron has never had a Pippen type player beside him.
Fact is that people were allowed to guard Jordan. At least before the Jordan rules were fully implemented.

[tchou]

So your contention is that "Jordan Rules" means both:
- The physical defensive strategies that the Pistons' employed on Jordan
- The beneficial treatment that Jordan received from the referees

Since these two "definitions" contradict each other, I have a hard time believing that both are valid.
"Jordan Rules" as far as the general public is concerned can take on both ... if not latter more often than the former. Whether or not you believe is one thing. Whether or not something actually is, is another. There's no real contradiction between the two.

[wekko368]

Also, Rodman was 34 years old vs. Pau who was only 28.

Big Difference.

Did you watch Rodman play? If so, you wouldn't be implying that a 34 year old Rodman was past his prime. The guy was an athletic freak. At 39 years old, he was still able to pull down 14.3 rebounds a game in his limited stint with the Mavs.

To put that in perspective, only Ben Wallace (in 02-03) has averaged more rebounds since the last time Rodman won it in 97-98.

[wekko368]

"Jordan Rules" as far as the general public is concerned can take on both ... if not latter more often than the former. Whether or not you believe is one thing. Whether or not something actually is, is another. There's no real contradiction between the two.

Well, for future reference then, use the definition I described. Otherwise, if you're talking to a knowledgeable fan, he/she will think you're an idiot.

[plutoblue11]

Did you watch Rodman play? If so, you wouldn't be implying that a 34 year old Rodman was past his prime. The guy was an athletic freak. At 39 years old, he was still able to pull down 14.3 rebounds a game in his limited stint with the Mavs.

To put that in perspective, only Ben Wallace (in 02-03) has averaged more rebounds since the last time Rodman won it in 97-98.


You didn't read my previous post about Rodman's behavior and his relationship with the Spurs (management/on-off the court antics).

It had to do with his inability to fit in with the Spurs. I'm not questioning Rodman's production at all. No other player in the last 35 years has been able to rebound, like Rodman, since a Wilt Chamberlain at the twilight of his career. But again, if his production was so great why didn't the Spurs keep him and let him go for Will Perdue.

[tchou]

Well, for future reference then, use the definition I described. Otherwise, if you're talking to a knowledgeable fan, he/she will think you're an idiot.
Nah, I'd rather not satiate the ego of a judgmental, narcissistic ass.

[wekko368]

You didn't read my previous post about Rodman's behavior and his relationship with the Spurs (management/on-off the court antics).

It had to do with his inability to fit in with the Spurs. I'm not questioning Rodman's production at all. No other player in the last 35 years has been able to rebound, like Rodman, since a Wilt Chamberlain at the twilight of his career. But again, if his production was so great why didn't the Spurs keep him and let him go for Will Perdue.

I did read your previous post about Rodman's behavior, but you were comparing the ages of Rodman and Gasol which is generally used to compare performance, not behavior.

Production isnt everything. The Lakers let Shaq go despite the fact that he led them to 3 titles.

[tchou]

Did you watch Rodman play? If so, you wouldn't be implying that a 34 year old Rodman was past his prime. The guy was an athletic freak. At 39 years old, he was still able to pull down 14.3 rebounds a game in his limited stint with the Mavs.

To put that in perspective, only Ben Wallace (in 02-03) has averaged more rebounds since the last time Rodman won it in 97-98.
A "knowledgeable" fan would know that Rodman doesn't rely on his athleticism to pull down his rebounds. He has the uncanny ability to "read" where the rebound will be after the shot. Therefore even with diminished speed and a diminished vertical, he's able to out-rebound more athletic players.

[wekko368]

Nah, I'd rather not satiate the ego of a judgmental, narcissistic ass.

So I'm an ass b/c you can't understand the contradictory nature of the two definitions?

[wekko368]

A "knowledgeable" fan would know that Rodman doesn't rely on his athleticism to pull down his rebounds. He has the uncanny ability to "read" where the rebound will be after the shot. Therefore even with diminished speed and a diminished vertical, he's able to out-rebound more athletic players.

Ok, he can "read" where the rebound is headed. In addition, he's able to get to that spot first because of his superior agility, speed, and reaction times. And those all tie into his athleticism.

[tchou]

Ok, he can "read" where the rebound is headed. In addition, he's able to get to that spot first because of his superior agility, speed, and reaction times. And those all tie into his athleticism.
Uh...no. Let me spell it out for you: he gets there b/c he has a head start, or simply other can't read where the ball is going to go and chase the ball instead.

[A_3PO]

Did you watch Rodman play? If so, you wouldn't be implying that a 34 year old Rodman was past his prime. The guy was an athletic freak. At 39 years old, he was still able to pull down 14.3 rebounds a game in his limited stint with the Mavs.

To put that in perspective, only Ben Wallace (in 02-03) has averaged more rebounds since the last time Rodman won it in 97-98.
The one and only way Rodman was a so-called "athletic freak" was his lack of decline in his 30s. At no point in his career was he athletically "freakish". He didn't jump extremely high. He was strong, but it definitely wasn't strength that made him a great rebounder. He wasn't particularly fast either. What set Rodman apart was his rebounding instincts, which were probably the best in NBA history. He had an uncanny ability to anticipate where the ball was going. Never seen anything like it. He was also able to slither around and get inside position on players who tried to block him out.

Certainly Rodman wasn't past his rebounding prime at 34, but it wasn't due to him being more athletic than anyone else. His long career is a testimony of what a player can do WITHOUT great athleticism.

[thacabbage]

it's a combination of both. for all of his eccentricities, the amount of preparation he put into his game was pretty surprising. two anecdotes come to mind specifically. one was an account from chuck daly with regard to the maniacal extent of dennis' leg workouts. even into his late 30's he was an awesome physical specimen. the other account was from an interview where he's discussing the diligence of his film preparation. he would study the tendencies of each player's shots and off which part of the rim they would bounce if missed.

[thacabbage]

His long career is a testimony of what a player can do WITHOUT great athleticism.
this.

+1.

[plutoblue11]

it's a combination of both. for all of his eccentricities, the amount of preparation he put into his game was pretty surprising. two anecdotes come to mind specifically. one was an account from chuck daly with regard to the maniacal extent of dennis' leg workouts. even into his late 30's he was an awesome physical specimen. the other account was from an interview where he's discussing the diligence of his film preparation. he would study the tendencies of each player's shots and off which part of the rim they would bounce if missed.


Those are two things youngsters could learn from Rodman. His work ethic in general, strengthening his legs, and watching film. I've said before that Rodman was basically a Superman version of Chuck Hayes with greater rebounding instincts. Again, although he was physical specimen, he wasn't a great jumper (like another poster pointed out) or had explosive speed, like a number of forwards. Rebounding is about instinct, timing, and aggressiveness, more times than not. Just because a team has giant big men or team with great length doesn't necessarily mean that they will be a superior rebounding team.

[durvasa]

The one and only way Rodman was a so-called "athletic freak" was his lack of decline in his 30s. At no point in his career was he athletically "freakish". He didn't jump extremely high. He was strong, but it definitely wasn't strength that made him a great rebounder. He wasn't particularly fast either. What set Rodman apart was his rebounding instincts, which were probably the best in NBA history. He had an uncanny ability to anticipate where the ball was going. Never seen anything like it. He was also able to slither around and get inside position on players who tried to block him out.

His relentless energy and incredible stamina should not be discounted. Maybe he wouldn't win a dunk contest, but I do think it takes an incredibly gifted athlete to do the things he did. Didn't he used to vigorously workout after games? That's some kind of freak.

[Icehouse]

You didn't read my previous post about Rodman's behavior and his relationship with the Spurs (management/on-off the court antics).

It had to do with his inability to fit in with the Spurs. I'm not questioning Rodman's production at all. No other player in the last 35 years has been able to rebound, like Rodman, since a Wilt Chamberlain at the twilight of his career. But again, if his production was so great why didn't the Spurs keep him and let him go for Will Perdue.

Because the Spurs were stupid and had a locker room full of dudes that either couldn't control Rodman, or tolerate his antics. That's wasn't the case for Chicago.

[A_3PO]

His relentless energy and incredible stamina should not be discounted. Maybe he wouldn't win a dunk contest, but I do think it takes an incredibly gifted athlete to do the things he did. Didn't he used to vigorously workout after games? That's some kind of freak.
Rodman's incredible energy and stamina is part of why he was so great. Nobody is discounting those. Nobody says he wasn't a gifted athlete, but he was NOT special by NBA standards by any stretch. If you ask me, it was more mental than physical. The guy was a lunatic kook who pushed his body to it's uttermost capability. Very few NBA players have done that. What helped was that rebounding became his sole focus on the offensive end. On occasion, it seemed like he was trying to pad his stats because he sometimes passed up obvious putback opportunities to pass the ball out so another shot would go up for him to rebound.

He wasn't the only Bull who worked out aside from games and practices.

[thelasik]

Because the Spurs were stupid and had a locker room full of dudes that either couldn't control Rodman, or tolerate his antics. That's wasn't the case for Chicago.

Exactly. Nobody on the Spurs could control Rodman. Just read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rodman#San_Antonio_Spurs