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Bag0b0y

03-02-2009, 11:24 AM

After the fallout between Cutler and the Broncos should we trade him for Matt Schaub and a 2nd day draft pick? Cutler and the new head coach are already not on the same page and would cause problems in the Denver locker room. The relationship between Josh McDaniel and Cutler is probably not going to be mended.

Kubiak's and Shanahan's system are very similar (Shanahan's son is our new offensive coordinator to boot) and Cutler would not have a difficult time adjusting. As a matter of fact all he would have to do is change the shade of blue and logo on his playbook. Cutler is obviously not happy with Denver and I think he would be an upgrade over the fragile Schaub.

Denver would get a QB named Matt (they acutally even look similar) and an extra pick.

kaleidosky

03-02-2009, 11:28 AM

No, based on the cost (draft picks), the fact that we have a QB who is already very successful in our system (top 5 in the NFL by rating when healthy), and has only played 2 NFL seasons. And whom you can't name "fragile" just yet..

MadMax

03-02-2009, 11:34 AM

The new Broncos staff handled this soooo poorly it's incredible.

DieHard Rocket

03-02-2009, 11:37 AM

Really? Are we going to do this every time a big name comes up on the market, even when we clearly don't need that position?

"Marvin Harrison is available, should the Texans sign him??"
"Roy Williams was cut..."
"Jay Cutler might be traded..." :rolleyes:

They're not going to give up on Schaub at this point. I'm not going to say he's durable but his injuries were from viscous hits. He has steadily progressed as he has played more. He should really come into his own here in the third season as a starter.

The Cat

03-02-2009, 11:45 AM

Matt Schaub is a better quarterback than Jay Cutler, so no. Yes, Schaub has some durability concerns, but we need to keep in perspective that it's two seasons -- not 4 or 5. I'd have to be extremely convinced that Schaub could never, ever make it through a season relatively healthy before I'd trade for a downgrade (when both are on the field).

Vinsanity

03-02-2009, 11:56 AM

Matt Schaub is a better quarterback than Jay Cutler.

I, and many others disagree with this statement.

JeopardE

03-02-2009, 12:02 PM

I, and many others disagree with this statement.

It's probably a stretch to say definitively that Matt Schaub is better than Jay Cutler, but the reality is that there really isn't any evidence you can hang your hat on that says Cutler is a better quarterback, either.

It seems people still haven't come to terms with the fact that Schaub engineered the NFL's 3rd best offense last year, and that he actually got much better as the season progressed (Cutler did the opposite: started strong and regressed as the season went on).

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 12:12 PM

I, and many others disagree with this statement.

For someone with the name Vinsanity, I dont think you have much of a say when it comes to assessing quarterback play.

Look at their last 2 seasons...other than the fact that Matt has missed games due to injury, look at their play on the field...

Schaub has had a better completion percentage...better yards per attempt average...and a higher quarterback rating.

Show me how Jay Cutler is the better quarterback.

Raven Lunatic

03-02-2009, 12:16 PM

Other than having a stronger arm (and Schaub's isn't exactly weak) I see no reason to believe that Cutler would be in any way an upgrade over Matt.

DoitDickau

03-02-2009, 12:28 PM

For someone with the name Vinsanity, I dont think you have much of a say when it comes to assessing quarterback play.

Look at their last 2 seasons...other than the fact that Matt has missed games due to injury, look at their play on the field...

Schaub has had a better completion percentage...better yards per attempt average...and a higher quarterback rating.

Show me how Jay Cutler is the better quarterback.

except those are relatively poor metrics to evaulate QB performance. It's like saying someone is a better hitter in baseball because they have a higher batting avg. Cutler has had a much higher DYAR (total value above replacement level) last two years. and while Schaub had a slightly higher DVOA (value above replacement per play) this past year (7th vs. 8th in the league) he was well behind Cutler in per play performance in 2007. Now maybe, ignoring injury history (seems like a pretty significant thing to ignore), it can be argued that they have been pretty close in performance, but there is still plenty of evidence that Culter has played better the last two years.

The Cat

03-02-2009, 12:30 PM

I, and many others disagree with this statement.

Let's analyze, then.

Matt Schaub posted a QB rating of 92.7, compared to Jay Cutler's 86. Schaub threw for 8.0 yards per attempt, compared to only 7.3 for Cutler, a significant difference. (This is important because undoubtedly, one of the first pro-Cutler arguments to be made will be OMGZ!!!! HIS ARM STRENGTH! And I'll counter that by saying arm strength is irrelevant in and of itself -- it can often be an indicator of ability to stretch the field, but not always. And by looking at actual results, not whether you can throw a ball between the goalposts on your knees from mid-field, ala Kyle Boller, Schaub does a much better job throwing downfield.)

Anyway, back to the discussion. In addition to having more success throwing it downfield, Schaub is more efficient as well, completing 66.1 percent of his passes to 62.3 for Cutler. He also makes fewer mistakes -- Schaub tosses an average of 0.9 interceptions per game, whereas Cutler throws 1.13 picks per game.

Moreover, we can move to some specialized statistics -- namely, pressure performance. Let's take a look at the performances of each in December, when the games really mattered (especially for the Broncos, who held a three-game division lead with three games to play before the Cutler-led team suffered one of the greatest collapses in NFL history):

Schaub: 3-1 record, 95.2 QB rating, 320.3 YPG, 8.4 YPA, 5 TD, 2 INT
Cutler: 1-3 record, 81.2 QB rating, 283.3 YPA, 6.8 YPA, 4 TD, 5 INT

Also, for those that care about records, Schaub's winning percentage as a starter last year: .545. Cutler's winning percentage as a starter last year: .500.

And those numbers don't even take into account other statistics like total offense, etc., which are also greatly in favor of Schaub.

Bottom line: with the exception of durability, Schaub was a clearly superior quarterback in 2008. Better rating, better at throwing downfield, better at completing passes, better at avoiding mistakes and better at winning games. These are statistical facts. It would be completely illogical to swap Schaub for Cutler for any non-injury related reason.

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 12:43 PM

It's like saying someone is a better hitter in baseball because they have a higher batting avg.

Uhhh, batting average in baseball tells a lot about how good of a hitter they are.

I listed 3 football statistics that are very significant for QB's...maybe individually, they may not mean much, but when one guy is better in ALL 3 categories, then I would find it difficult to argue that the one with lesser statistics is the better QB.

leroy420

03-02-2009, 12:47 PM

Stromile Swift was just released. Should the Texans sign him, too?

DoitDickau

03-02-2009, 12:50 PM

Uhhh, batting average in baseball tells a lot about how good of a hitter they are. .

not really. I mean it tells you something, but not a lot and the key point is that there are a ton of other statistics that get (a lot) closer to the "truth" than ba

I listed 3 football statistics that are very significant for QB's...maybe individually, they may not mean much, but when one guy is better in ALL 3 categories, then I would find it difficult to argue that the one with lesser statistics is the better QB.

Except, I, and others, would argue that just like in the baseball example there are other, better, qb statistics that more accurately reveals the value in a QB's performance. At the very least, those statistics I cited should refute the claim that there is no evidence (and also no statistical evidence) that Cutler has played better than schaub the last two years

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 12:57 PM

Except, I, and others, would argue that just like in the baseball example there are other, better, qb statistics that more accurately reveals the value in a QB's performance. At the very least, those statistics I cited should refute the claim that there is no evidence (and also no statistical evidence) that Cutler has played better than schaub the last two years

A couple of the most significant statistics regarding QB play are yards per attempt and QB rating. Completion percentage is only important if it takes into context former two statistics. Ex. David Carr can throw for a high completion percentage, but a look at his YPA shows that he doesnt throw downfield.

In any case, the 3 stats, used together, very much show how well a QB's play is on the field.

Your DYAR stat...do you know what factors go into it?

rhino17

03-02-2009, 01:03 PM

Cutler = OVERRATED

Shroopy2

03-02-2009, 01:09 PM

I dont think Shaub's really much better if he's even better at all. But give Schaub over 600 throws and he'll put big numbers too. Aaron Rogers had as good a season as Cutler.

The only reason to trade would be to get a younger more durable, mobile guy if the belief is Schaub is made of glass.

Two 2nd round picks is a big investment in Schaub already. Schaub and Cutler make about the same money but Cutler gets more guaranteed money. So itd be another guaranteed $5 million to pay plus a 2nd day pick. I'd think the Texans would rather put that on the defense

Vinsanity

03-02-2009, 01:31 PM

kaleidosky

03-02-2009, 01:36 PM

I, and many others disagree with this statement.

and you're probably all among that group who called for Sage to start over Schaub for about 70% of last season

CometsWin

03-02-2009, 01:36 PM

Other than having a stronger arm (and Schaub's isn't exactly weak) I see no reason to believe that Cutler would be in any way an upgrade over Matt.

Having a much stronger arm is kind of important at the quarterback position but he's also more mobile, he doesn't get hurt, and he's younger.

Reading a stat sheet doesn't equate to judging talent because anyone that's watched Cutler play should know he's a far more talented quarterback than Schaub. Hell, based on statistics, The Cat would take Matt Schaub over John Elway after 3 years because of course Schaub has a higher completion percentage, higher yards per completion average, yadda yadda. Elway though had a bigger arm, he was more mobile, and he didn't get hurt much like Jay Cutler. I'm certainly not saying Cutler will be the next Elway but he's got a hell of a lot better shot at it than Matt Schaub, no question about that and anyone who's watched the two of them play should be able to recognize that.

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 01:38 PM

The broncos had one of the worst if not the worst running back situation last season. Cutler was forced to throw for Denver to win and defenses knew this coming in. Schaub had balance. I'd like to see what Schaub would have done in Denver's situation last year - forced to throw every down against a defense who knew you were throwing every down.

Oh really?

Lets compare last season's rushing statistics:

Rushing yards per carry:
Denver - 4.8
Houston - 4.3

Rushing yards per game:
Denver - 116.4
Houston - 115.4

Denver had the 12th ranked rushing offense last season.

So, no, Cutler was not FORCED to throw because of a lacking running game. They ran the ball just fine and had just as much balance in offense as the Texans.

Also, in 2007, the Broncos had the #9 ranked rushing attack. Cutler's numbers werent much different.

The Cat

03-02-2009, 01:42 PM

Oh really?

Lets compare last season's rushing statistics:

Rushing yards per carry:
Denver - 4.8
Houston - 4.3

Rushing yards per game:
Denver - 116.4
Houston - 115.4

Denver had the 12th ranked rushing offense last season.

So, no, Cutler was not FORCED to throw because of a lacking running game. They ran the ball just fine and had just as much balance in offense as the Texans. Only difference is that the Texans were much more effective throwing the ball.

Also, in 2007, the Broncos had the #9 ranked rushing attack. Cutler's numbers werent much different.

Well done, rez... thanks for saving me the time on that one. :)

Ric

03-02-2009, 01:42 PM

The broncos had one of the worst if not the worst running back situation last season. Cutler was forced to throw for Denver to win and defenses knew this coming in. Schaub had balance. I'd like to see what Schaub would have done in Denver's situation last year - forced to throw every down against a defense who knew you were throwing every down.
i actually think that's a fair point. i'm all for keeping schaub... but in the interest of discussing this (for fun0 on a message board....

the texans were an unquestionably better offensive team - and probably better defensively, too (hard as that is to believe). cutler is two years younger and more durable (hasn't missed a start yet - that's 37 games. schaub's missed 10 in roughly the same # of games).

all things being equal, i'd probably trade schaub for him straight up. *probably* BUT... no way the upgrade (if there even is one on the field) would justify giving up a pick, too.

The Cat

03-02-2009, 01:45 PM

i actually think that's a fair point. i'm all for keeping schaub... but in the interest of discussing this (for fun0 on a message board....

the texans were an unquestionably better offensive team - and probably better defensively, too (hard as that is to believe). cutler is two years younger and more durable (hasn't missed a start yet - that's 37 games. schaub's missed 10 in roughly the same # of games).

all things being equal, i'd probably trade schaub for him straight up. *probably* BUT... no way the upgrade (if there even is one on the field) would justify giving up a pick, too.

I'm curious how it's a fair point to say Schaub had more balance within his offensive gameplan, considering Denver rushed for more yards per carry and more yards per game. Yes, I'll concede Houston has a better receiving situation than Denver, but balance isn't the right word to use.

mateo

03-02-2009, 01:52 PM

This Vandy alum says HELL FREAKING YESSSS!!!

Ric

03-02-2009, 02:09 PM

I'm curious how it's a fair point to say Schaub had more balance within his offensive gameplan, considering Denver rushed for more yards per carry and more yards per game.
they averaged exactly 1 more rushing yard per game, The Cat, and you can put that directly on green being hurt and ineffective - the texans basically had one competent NFL running back on the active roster last year, and he was a slightly undersized rookie. despite that, slaton was an infinitely bigger and more consistent threat than hills/pittman/young (pick one or combine all 3 - he's still better).

johnson is a much better receiver than marshall; daniels is a much better TE than scheffler - walter and royal cancel each other out, though walter did average more YPC and score 3 more TDs. i don't know a lot about denver's OL - perhaps it's better. but skill position-wise, the texans had last year, and will again this year much greater weapons.

so i'd argue cutler would probably post similiar numbers to schaub if he were here, if not better given theirs career production is almost identical (like, eerily identical). and i don't think it's a knock on schaub to say you'd (hypothetically) deal him for a younger, more durable and i'd guess cheaper version.

kaleidosky

03-02-2009, 02:23 PM

all things being equal, i'd probably trade schaub for him straight up. *probably* BUT... no way the upgrade (if there even is one on the field) would justify giving up a pick, too.

straight up? I guess then it'd be worth looking into / considering. (But even then, I'd say no...given that Schaub already knows this offense and the personnel here. Everyone knows him, too, and they just started clicking last year. I wouldn't mess that up that is essentially the same, with a gain in age somewhat--hard to call Schaub's bench time as mileage on his body, and a gain in durability, though 2 years hardly justifies it)

At any rate, the point is moot.. it would not be a straight up deal. They'd ask for a pick or 2 at the least... which is even more reason to not even glance at it.

Ric

03-02-2009, 02:28 PM

So, no, Cutler was not FORCED to throw because of a lacking running game.
Vinsanity is wrong; he was FORCED to throw because denver's defense was terrible - only detroit and st. louis gave up more points last year (28/game for denver). the broncos allowed 33/game in their 8 losses. when you have to play shoot-out every week - and your leading rusher is a converted linebacker... you're gonna chuck it far more than the average team.

career-wise, cutler's numbers are nearly identical to schaub's (if not oh-so-slightly better). it's fair to argue he'd *likely* post better #s playing with slaton, johnson, walter & daniels. given that's he's younger, more durable and i believe cheaper, he'd be an upgrade over schaub - no question.

and that's not a knock against schaub at all. and no way i'd deal schaub AND a pick for cutler. but straight up..........

tigereye

03-02-2009, 02:30 PM

baller4life315

03-02-2009, 02:32 PM

Summer Song Giver

03-02-2009, 02:42 PM

"QB Matt Schaub here, you are making me very ANGRY with all of this talk!!!!"

Ric

03-02-2009, 02:43 PM

straight up? I guess then it'd be worth looking into / considering. (But even then, I'd say no...given that Schaub already knows this offense and the personnel here. Everyone knows him, too, and they just started clicking last year. I wouldn't mess that up that is essentially the same, with a gain in age somewhat--hard to call Schaub's bench time as mileage on his body, and a gain in durability, though 2 years hardly justifies it)

i don't know.... the offenses probably aren't radically different and while schaub would certainly have an edge in terms of comfort-level, well - it's not like he's out there 16 weeks a year, you know? he's missed 10 games - and thus, roughly 10 weeks of practice the past two years.

i'm doing this only for fun - i like matt schaub a lot; i'm not looking to replace him.

Vinsanity

03-02-2009, 02:56 PM

I'm curious how it's a fair point to say Schaub had more balance within his offensive gameplan, considering Denver rushed for more yards per carry and more yards per game. Yes, I'll concede Houston has a better receiving situation than Denver, but balance isn't the right word to use.

If you read my post again, I said Denver had a worse "running back situation". They had injuries and plugged in stiff after stiff. No defense out there game planned for those stiffs. Peyton Hillis. Who?

And also yeah, Denver had an awful defense and played from behind. Also you could say Schaub's numbers are a bit skewed due to the receiving ability of Slaton. Dump it off to him for a big gain and basically the QB gets credit for a completion, pass yards, and yards per catch with a throw that my grandmother could make. Cutler did not have that luxury.

Ric

03-02-2009, 03:07 PM

I would rather have Schaub. Not only that but at least Schaub isn't a complete douchebag or whiner the way Cutler is.

For your reading pleasure: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=3946294&sportCat=nfl
boy, i sure as heck don't want to get sucked into a cutler debate - but i think that article's patently unfair. what should his reaction be to the team's new regime actively trying to trade him?

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 03:14 PM

And also yeah, Denver had an awful defense and played from behind. Also you could say Schaub's numbers are a bit skewed due to the receiving ability of Slaton. Dump it off to him for a big gain and basically the QB gets credit for a completion, pass yards, and yards per catch with a throw that my grandmother could make. Cutler did not have that luxury.

Again. Fail.

Peyton Hill averaged 12.8 yards per catch.
Michael Pittman averaged 11.2 yards per catch.

Steve Slaton averaged 7.5 cards per catch.

Granted, Steve Slaton caught 50 balls and did it over a longer stretch.

However, Cutler had 40 completions to the top 5 RBs with the most carries for a total of 397 yards.

That means that completions to RBs went for 9.925 yards per completion.

If you want to talk about dump offs that lead to big gains, look no further than the Denver Broncos. Id venture to say that Cutler's numbers are a bit more skewed.

kaleidosky

03-02-2009, 03:18 PM

If you read my post again, I said Denver had a worse "running back situation". They had injuries and plugged in stiff after stiff. No defense out there game planned for those stiffs. Peyton Hillis. Who?

And also yeah, Denver had an awful defense and played from behind. Also you could say Schaub's numbers are a bit skewed due to the receiving ability of Slaton. Dump it off to him for a big gain and basically the QB gets credit for a completion, pass yards, and yards per catch with a throw that my grandmother could make. Cutler did not have that luxury.

just because you hadn't heard of an RB doesn't make him a stiff. Hillis started what, 2 games anyway? I'd argue he was better than Ahman Green.

And because you really want me to do this, here you go. Stop just throwing out random facts because you think they support your argument when you're just spewing lies. Research first, or don't bother making claims like that.

Slaton's # receptions > 10 yards

Week 1: 0
Week 3: 0
Week 4: 4 (12, 30, 11, 12)
Week 5: 0
Week 6: 0
Week 7: 0
Week 8: 0
Week 9: 1 (22)
Week 10: 1 (17) <-- oh wait, that was Sage.. doesn't support your "Schaub dinks" theory
Week 11: 0
Week 12: 0
Week 13: 1 (46) <-- oh wait, that was Sage.. doesn't support your "Schaub dinks" theory
Week 14: 2 (13, 21)
Week 15: 0
Week 16: 2 (19, 17)
Week 17: 2 (17, 11)

Of course we all remember the 30 yarder in Game 3 (JAX) that was actually Slaton running a route to the endzone and Schaub landing it in there perfectly...not quite the "dink" pass that you wanted it to be, huh? Who knows how many of the others were actual routes and not dump offs like you're saying?

Even if all 10 of those other passes are dump offs.. you're gonna tell me Cutler didn't have 10 dump passes to his RBs over the course of the season?

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 03:20 PM

kaleidosky, nice research there...mix that with the results I found and that argument is dead.

Vinsanity

03-02-2009, 03:22 PM

Again. Fail.

Peyton Hill averaged 12.8 yards per catch.
Michael Pittman averaged 11.2 yards per catch.

Pittman only had 10 catches all season.
Hillis only had 14 catches all season
SLATON HAD 50

Its pretty silly on your part to try and use yards per catch average as an argument when you have such drastic differences in the amount of receptions between the targets of your comparisons. Nice try though. Fail.

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 03:28 PM

Pittman only had 10 catches all season.
Hillis only had 14 catches all season
SLATON HAD 50

Its pretty silly on your part to try and use yards per catch average as an argument when you have such drastic differences in the amount of receptions between the targets of your comparisons. Nice try though. Fail.

Ok, if you continued with my post...Cutler completed 40 passes to RBs...not that much different than the 50 that Slaton received.

Yards per catch...that stat completely disproves your theory. Thanks for playing.

Vinsanity

03-02-2009, 03:29 PM

Even if all 10 of those other passes are dump offs.. you're gonna tell me Cutler didn't have 10 dump passes to his RBs over the course of the season?

Why are you only counting dump offs to Slaton, but you are comparing it to dumpoffs to ALL of Cutler's running backs? Is Slaton the only back on the Texans roster to catch a dump off pass? Also quite a few of Andre's receptions could be considered dump offs because he's so good after the catch.

I think Cutler is a better QB than Matt Schaub and I think he has a ton of more upside. If you put a poll out there on the web somewhere, i'm sure it would be close, probably leaning towards Cutler, but it is highly entertaining that that you and the cat come rushing to formulate your stance based on selective stats - and act like I'm crazy for even remotely thinking that Cutler is better.

gucci888

03-02-2009, 03:30 PM

The new Broncos staff handled this soooo poorly it's incredible.

This. And this...

Really? Are we going to do this every time a big name comes up on the market, even when we clearly don't need that position?

Ric

03-02-2009, 03:45 PM

(pssst Vinsanity.... over here.... here's what you need to focus on: slaton, johnson, walter and daniels - plus a slightly better defense with a much higher upside - are infinitely better weapons than anything cutler has. no one in this thread opposing you would trade any of those players - or our defense - for their denver counterpart. none. (sidebar: MAYBE walter for royal - maybe.)

so don't get caught up in #s, especially if you're going to post errorneous ones - concentrate on the possibility of cutler *probably* posting better #s than schaub if he was given better weapons. and then hit over and over again that he's younger, more durable and cheaper - those are better positions to take.)

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 03:50 PM

Republic

03-02-2009, 03:58 PM

Cutler is slightly overrated, Schaub is slightly underrated. Considering both these facts and applying a dose of reality, they are both still vastly mediocre QB's. Cutler isn't an upgrade or a downgrade. This thread is analyzing something that doesn't warrant it.

Neither the Texans or the Broncos knocked any doors down last year. None of this makes any difference.

Vinsanity

03-02-2009, 04:03 PM

For someone with the name Vinsanity, I dont think you have much of a say when it comes to assessing quarterback play.

So what does a moniker, exactly have to do with knowledge of a particular subject? :confused:

I guess THE CAT (named after an nba player) would be better at discussing NFL QBs than VINSANITY (named after an nba player)? :confused: Fail.

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 04:05 PM

So what does a moniker, exactly have to do with knowledge of a particular subject? :confused:

I guess THE CAT (named after an nba player) would be better at discussing NFL QBs than VINSANITY (named after an nba player)? :confused: Fail.

Its called a joke.

Or rather, a knock on Vince Young because I thoroughly enjoy watching him fail.

zantabak1111

03-02-2009, 04:15 PM

baller4life315

03-02-2009, 04:27 PM

boy, i sure as heck don't want to get sucked into a cutler debate - but i think that article's patently unfair. what should his reaction be to the team's new regime actively trying to trade him?

Having a brain and accepting the fact that football is indeed a business too? It's not like Cutler has played well enough to warrant this untouchable status he and his agent think he's achieved. Wojciechowski is absolutely right and the biggest point of all is he's accomplished nothing in this league outside of some inflated passing yardage numbers. Get over yourself.

Far better players than him (McNabb, for instance) have been involved in plenty of trade talks yet you don't hear them acting like irrational, cry babies. Why? Because somebody like McNabb is a professional and knows how to place his ego aside when appropriate. Cutler is pretty indefensible in this matter.

Ric

03-02-2009, 04:47 PM

Far better players than him (McNabb, for instance) have been involved in plenty of trade talks yet you don't hear them acting like irrational, cry babies.
why is being pissed that you were almost dealt for an older, more expensive, less proven QB tantamount to being an irrational crybaby? that's a total disconnect for me.

i read his comments; they sound like a guy stung by trade talks not an irrational cry baby. the article read like the writer had a bit of a beef with cutler, frankly.

Vinsanity

03-02-2009, 05:01 PM

Its called a joke.

Or rather, a knock on Vince Young because I thoroughly enjoy watching him fail.

Ah I see and now understand your comment. But, Vinsanity = Vince Carter not Vince Young.

Raven Lunatic

03-02-2009, 05:01 PM

His initial complaints didn't sound so bad, but if the team is wanting to meet with him and talk it out and he is flat out refusing to meet or even TALK to them on the phone...how can you not see that as anything other than juvenile?

baller4life315

03-02-2009, 05:05 PM

why is being pissed that you were almost dealt for an older, more expensive, less proven QB tantamount to being an irrational crybaby? that's a total disconnect for me.

i read his comments; they sound like a guy stung by trade talks not an irrational cry baby. the article read like the writer had a bit of a beef with cutler, frankly.

Because if you're Cutler, this is the profession you chose. The possibility of getting traded or in this case just hearing your name mentioned in trade talks comes with the territory. This isn't complicated. You can't cry, throw hissy fits and attempt to alienate your coach/management staff simply because your ego was insulted by a common occurrence in your industry. I think he's totally indefensible in this matter and plenty are calling him out for it. I guess you feel otherwise?

BrooksBall

03-02-2009, 05:22 PM

Ah I see and now understand your comment. But, Vinsanity = Vince Carter not Vince Young.

You should create another ID using Jay Cutler's name. That way, you'll have two IDs based on players who don't end up in Houston. You can even create a third one like "PudgeRod" if you want to go for the trifecta.

kaleidosky

03-02-2009, 05:33 PM

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 05:37 PM

Ric

03-02-2009, 06:08 PM

You can't cry
he didn't.

throw hissy fits
he didn't do that, either.

attempt to alienate your coach/management staff simply because your ego was insulted by a common occurrence in your industry.
nor has he done this - 0 for 3! he's under absolutely no obligation to the team right now in terms of contact: it's the offseason - he's not skipping OTAs or training camp. so how is taking some time to sort things out a form of alienation?

i could argue he's demonstrating a fair amount of maturity by blowing off his steam before talking to the team.

regardless, you're guilty of the same hyperbole that permeated the article. if, in september, he's still grousing about it, let's reconvene. but for now, i don't think he's done anything beyond showing an obvious desire to play for the denver broncos.

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 06:13 PM

Ric, this is a new regime that has taken over the Broncos. Its kinda important that he be on the same page as them from the get go...he doesnt have until September to get over his hurt feelings. He needs to start the relationship now. Ignoring phone calls is completely uncalled for...what reason does he have, because his name was in trade talks? Please.

Its great that he wants to play for the Broncos, but to avoid talking to coaches or FO personnel because he is upset is completely childish. This is a business, this is entertainment...nothing personal. But by the antics he has pulled, he is making it personal. No room for that in football.

baller4life315

03-02-2009, 06:27 PM

he didn't.

he didn't do that, either.

nor has he done this - 0 for 3! he's under absolutely no obligation to the team right now in terms of contact: it's the offseason - he's not skipping OTAs or training camp. so how is taking some time to sort things out a form of alienation?

i could argue he's demonstrating a fair amount of maturity by blowing off his steam before talking to the team.

regardless, you're guilty of the same hyperbole that permeated the article. if, in september, he's still grousing about it, let's reconvene. but for now, i don't think he's done anything beyond showing an obvious desire to play for the denver broncos.

You're obviously getting some different information than the rest of us because every claim i've mentioned is clearly supported. Your rebuttals, on the other hand, are merely opinion upon your part. Unsupported and nothing more than mere speculation.

Not returning phone calls, refusing to meet with your employers, instructing your agent to stir up the press, etc. That's what you call alienating your superiors. That's exactly what he's doing right now. He has a history of attitude issues -- this is just the latest chapter in that book.

....and the only hyperbole here is on your part. The fact that you even semi-seriously implied he's handling this situation well or displaying any form of maturity just blows my mind.

Ric

03-02-2009, 06:28 PM

Its kinda important that he be on the same page as them from the get go...
if it's so important.... why did they spend the weekend trying to trade him? i mean... how is that less alienating than being pissed about it?

and it's march not august. free agency's been open for less than 72 hours, the draft is still nearly two months away - they don't even know what their roster is going to look like right now. and it's not like he's been avoiding them for a prolonged period - what's it been? like, a couple of hours? maybe a day? big deal.

we tend to view sports in its own context; but consider something like this happening to you: your new boss reveals he tried to hire his old employee to replace you - fell through, though. oh well, it's business, right? no hard feelings. you'll be there bright and early tomorrow morning, ready to work harder than ever, huh?... come on.

he's pissed off - that's it. he's made no other declarations, no threats - he hasn't cried or thrown a hissy fit, either. he's reacted like... well, a human. and he doesn't (to my knowledge) have a history of whining, so why is this so egregious?

this is being blow so out of proportion, IMO.

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 06:32 PM

Dude, this is freaking football...95% of the players in the league are mentioned in trade talks...are you seriously supporting the fact that he has decided to ignore his superiors?

baller4life315

03-02-2009, 06:34 PM

this is being blow so out of proportion, IMO.

His agent hinted there might be irreconcilable differences so keep telling yourself this situation is blown out of proportion and that it's no big deal.

Fulgore

03-02-2009, 06:36 PM

McDaniels must be a total idiot.You have a very good young qb who threw for over 4,000 yds and 20+tds and you talk about trading him because he may not pick up your system? Wow. Yea you can find a Jay Cutler anywhere :rolleyes:

Ric

03-02-2009, 06:41 PM

You're obviously getting some different information than the rest of us because every claim i've mentioned is clearly supported.[QUOTE=baller4life315]
then please support those claims: i'd like to see some evidence he's cried and/or thrown hissy fits.

[QUOTE=baller4life315]Your rebuttals, on the other hand, are merely opinion upon your part. Unsupported and nothing more than mere speculation.
i've never claimed otherwise. you, otoh.....

Not returning phone calls, refusing to meet with your employers, instructing your agent to stir up the press, etc.
please support your claim that he instructed his agent to stir up the press.

That's what you call alienating your superiors.
he has no obligation to respond to their calls at this time. it's the offseason - he's not missing mandatory meetings - or even voluntary meetings, for that matter.

He has a history of attitude issues -- this is just the latest chapter in that book.
please support this.

....and the only hyperbole here is on your part.
eh.... maybe you should re-read some of your posts - such as most of the one i'm responding to here. there's an awful lot of hyperbole (crying, hissy fits, alienation, private instructions to his agent, a history of attitude problems....)

The fact that you even semi-seriously implied he's handling this situation well or displaying any form of maturity just blows my mind.
i never said he handled it well; i said he handled it like a human. a human that's pissed off and appears to have the smarts to sleep on it. there's absolutely, positively nothing wrong with that.

if it lasts beyond this week, then i think we may have an issue. but as of right now, it's been going on for hours. it's no big deal.

Ric

03-02-2009, 06:42 PM

sorry; let me try this again:

You're obviously getting some different information than the rest of us because every claim i've mentioned is clearly supported.
then please support those claims: i'd like to see some evidence he's cried and/or thrown hissy fits.

Your rebuttals, on the other hand, are merely opinion upon your part. Unsupported and nothing more than mere speculation.
i've never claimed otherwise. you, otoh.....

Ric

03-02-2009, 06:51 PM

His agent hinted there might be irreconcilable differences so keep telling yourself this situation is blown out of proportion and that it's no big deal.
please. it's agent spin; their job is to protect their clients.

look, i'm not saying it can't become a big deal; i'm saying it's not a big deal right now. if this lingers and he continues to grouse about it... then yeah, they have a situation on their hands - a situation, i might add, that is their own doing. i mean, denver is absolutely justified in doing whatever it can to improve its team, but there can be consequences - i think trying (and ultimately failing) to deal your franchise QB - and that information becoming public - is far more alienating than the franchise QB being pissed about it. good lord.

rezdawg

03-02-2009, 06:51 PM

BTW, Cutler asked to be traded weeks ago...and now he is the one that is acting like a victim when his name gets thrown around.

Per Peter King in MMQB:

I heard one other interesting thing Sunday: Cutler asked for a trade shortly after the Broncos lost offensive coordinator Jeremy Bates -- Cutler's confidant -- to USC after the season. So maybe both sides need to go into marriage counseling here.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/03/01/freeagency/index.html

If true, I dont understand the purpose of ignoring the team.

Ric

03-02-2009, 06:59 PM

If true, I dont understand the purpose of ignoring the team.
if peter king is reporting it, there's a better than 1,000,000% chance it's wrong. he's a moron.

BUT... let's say it's true... is it possible the team told him in response to the request, "no way" and in doing so made a quasi-commitment to him in the process? something like, "we're plan to build this team around you."

that's seems pretty plausible, no? i mean, they obviously didn't tell him, "ok" because he would have probably been traded and/or he wouldn't be terribly pissed right now. so isn't it conceivable he's pissed they reneged on their commitment?

again, we don't have anything here but rumors and conjecture - but that seems possible. i certainly don't think we should draw any definitive conclusions about a situation we're observing from a great distance.

baller4life315

03-02-2009, 07:21 PM

This is ridiculous. Apparently, now i'm dealing with your reading comprehension issues too in addition to your naive and faulty reasoning. Go back and re-read any recent report on this issue: it's all about him whining to the media and his agent stirring up the pot. That much is undeniable -- I don't feel like going back to cite specific examples when it's right there in front of you. Everything from his cocky demeanor, to players/coaches complaining about his attitude, to the arrogant John Elway comments, to his request to be traded weeks ago, to his fifth-grade-level response to this matter....

Everything points to this dude being a headcase. And as Wojciechowski pointed out, he simply doesn't have the resume to back that type of nonsense up. You actually have to accomplish something in this league before you can get away with the soap opera stuff.

Take it from Broncos fans too:
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=129286

....and again, as long as his agent is hinting there could be irreconcilable differences this absolutely is a big deal. Sure, there's a good chance Cutler will stop acting like a little girl and start acknowledging his superiors -- who, contrary to what you claim, he does have an obligation to report to -- and maybe he'll put this issue behind him like just about every single other professional athlete in the history of sports has managed to do in the same situation. I won't lie though, part of me is enjoying watching him make a royal ass out of himself. His false sense of entitlement and 'untouchable' label he and his agent are trying to sell are actually quite hilarious considering his mediocre career.

P.S. It looks like you found something new to be wrong about:
http://broncomadness.com/2009/03/02/did-jay-cutler-ask-for-a-trade-weeks-before/

Republic

03-02-2009, 07:59 PM

...maybe he makes comments when his blood sugar is running low?

Just a thought..

Mr. Clutch

03-02-2009, 08:48 PM

leroy420

03-02-2009, 09:12 PM

I want to know why we traded 2 second rounders and swapped top 10 picks with Atlanta for Schaub when he was entrenched as a backup to probably the most unmovable quarterback in the NFL at the time but yet all New England for Cassel was 1 second rounder and they got to dump another contract in vrabel as well. It makes it seem like we gave up too much for Schaub.

Couple of reasons. First, the Pats were going to be on the hook to pay their back up qb $14 million because of the franchise tag. They were willing to take back less to give that up and Vrabel's contract. Second, Scott Piloli (former NE exec) is now the gm of KC. The rumor is that Cutler was being traded to Tampa after Denver gave KC their 1st round pick (#12) for Cassel. Instead he ends up in KC for a 2nd rounder? Yeah, I think there might be something to that...

Also, I think Atlanta knew at the time that it was time to start over. They probably had some grasp of what kind of trouble Vick was in and saw the writing on the wall...time to rebuild. They could give up their qb and get additional picks to aid in the rebuilding. I'm still saying that this trade is working out well for both teams.

Ric

03-02-2009, 10:19 PM

Apparently, now i'm dealing with your reading comprehension issues too in addition to your naive and faulty reasoning.
i have reading comprehension issues? me?.... really?

Take it from Broncos fans too:
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=129286
...because i'm thinking you might very well be the one struggling with their reading comprehension. while i admittedly didn't read the entire thing - i skipped around and read quite a few and it's pretty universally pro-cutler. at the very least, it's split down the middle.

and what's your point, anyway? should we take every thing a bronco fan says as the gospel? specifically anything they say that’s negative toward jay cutler?

Go back and re-read any recent report on this issue: it's all about him whining to the media and his agent stirring up the pot.
let me ask you a question - two, actually: 1) what is the appropriate response to learning that the team you play for wants to replace you with an (arguably) inferior player?; to accept it as business and go about your day whistling dixie out of your asshole? 2) why are you confusing being angry with whining?

i'm not saying he is angry nor am i arguing he's not whining; i just don't see how one could draw a conclusion either way based on a few pretty innocuous quotes. he doesn't really say anything damning except that he's irked. big deal.

I don't feel like going back to cite specific examples when it's right there in front of you.
of course you don't.

Everything from his cocky demeanor, to players/coaches complaining about his attitude, to the arrogant John Elway comments, to his request to be traded weeks ago, to his fifth-grade-level response to this matter....
i'd ask you to support your claims of a cocky demeanor or provide links to players/coaches commenting about his attitude (as opposed to linking to some random fan forum), but i can see you're playing by a different set of rules. namely, you get to treat your own conjecture as fact, draw whatever conclusions fit your point, assume everything you've heard that supports your point is gospel and, of course, you're under absolutely no obligation to cite anything. that about cover it?

And as Wojciechowski pointed out, he simply doesn't have the resume to back that type of nonsense up. You actually have to accomplish something in this league before you can get away with the soap opera stuff.
you know, i don't follow the denver broncos but... cutler hasn't exactly sucked. he's not vince young or matt leinart, ferchrissakes. he's played fairly well. i mean, reportedly, several teams were willing to deal first round picks for him…

Sure, there's a good chance Cutler will stop acting like a little girl and start acknowledging his superiors -- who, contrary to what you claim, he does have an obligation to report to -- and maybe he'll put this issue behind him like just about every single other professional athlete in the history of sports has managed to do in the same situation. I won't lie though, part of me is enjoying watching him make a royal ass out of himself. His false sense of entitlement and 'untouchable' label he and his agent are trying to sell are actually quite hilarious considering his mediocre career.
well, gee - doesn't sound at all like you have an axe to grind; you seem like the very definition of impartial.

here's a more reliable source than anonymous posters on broncoland.com message forum, or whatever - it's the denver post (http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_11815666); a few choice excerpts (emphasis mine):

(Cutler) said his relationship with McDaniels "has taken a few steps backward," although he added, "Anything can be mended."
boy - sure sounds like he's dug in for a long, nasty fight, doesn't it? what a hissy fit! this DEFINITELY sounds like it will UNDOUBTEDLY be a problem.

Cutler spoke his mind Saturday, but his friends say he will lay low for a couple of days. McDaniels and Cutler are to meet no later than March 16, when Broncos veterans are to begin their offseason conditioning program.
if he doesn't show up for this, we can officially label the situation a problem. until then, he's under no mandated obligation to make contact with the team.

P.S. It looks like you found something new to be wrong about:
http://broncomadness.com/2009/03/02/did-jay-cutler-ask-for-a-trade-weeks-before/
oh, thank god - another credible source... this time: broncomadness.com, huh? i believe they won a pulitzer last year, didn't they, for their undercover work exposing asbestos in the local elementary school cafeteria? let's take a look...
Did Jay Cutler Ask For a Trade Weeks Before?
yep - pretty declarative - except, you know, for the question mark at the end of the headline... meaning they don't actually know if it's true or not. here's the rest of the "article" - for fun, i bolded every instance in which the author admits he has no idea if the rumor is true or is merely speculating:
Before you all don’t want to take this seriously and just pawn it off as another rumor (ric note: was that english or is my reading comprehension really that bad?) you all need to listen to this (another ric note: oh, cool - they're going to provide audio!) because you might really change your opinion after this one article. (ric note: we know one opinion that was changed, don’t we, baller4life315???!?!?!??!)

Apparently (sorry, ric note again: i like that the author can't even verify if the article is true - really, this should be fun...) Peter Kings’ MMQB column over at Sports Illustrated is a disclosure (ric note: IS a disclosure?) that Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler had asked to be traded weeks before the team tried to comply with his request. (ric note: huh?) Now we don’t know how true this is but I have a lot of respect for King and might just believe him.

(he's right, btw - king really does deserve our trust:
You tried on Houshmandzadeh, Seattle. Taking him up in a pontoon plane for a city tour and landing on Lake Washington and walking up on the dock to your practice fields. Cool stuff.

But I don't think you're getting him.
that was yesterday - guess who houshmanzadeh signed with today?... hey, peter king - what about matt cassel - think he'll wind up in KC?
That leaves Cassel's old pal Pioli... But I say no... Pioli values picks in the 30s the way most team value picks in the teens. I'd be stunned if he did it.
guess what happened this weekend? pioli traded the 34th pick for matt cassel.

so, yeah - trust away!!!! - ok, back to the article)

Per King, Cutler requested to be dealt after quarterbacks coach Jeremy Bates bolted for USC. It would make perfect sense, right? Jay Cutler had complained all along about the firing of Mike Shanahan and when he heard Jeremy Bates was gone it might have been the point where he blew.

So if in fact, Josh McDaniels approached another team in a trade for Cutler it would have been on his request not going behind the backs of the organization. (ric note:???) So, here is how it stands now: We need to trade Jay Cutler. I know, shocking I would say this. (ric note: it IS shocking, random, anonymous, english-raping internet poster-guy!!) We need to trade him before this becomes the most ugly situation in the NFL.

Maybe I am being a bit reactionary and I need to cool down (ric note: no, don't do that!! posters like baller4life315 will call you a girl!!!) but as it stands now Cutler needs to go. If in fact he did this, which he might have not; he needs to go. We will see how this one plays out but I am very disappointed by all of this.
and you linked to this...why, exactly? what was your point? do you even know? and once again i'll remind you (and everyone else) that you called out MY reading comprehension.

The Cat

03-03-2009, 09:19 AM

You guys are arguing as if it's obvious one is better than the other. I don't know, I think they both pretty close. I'd take Cutler for his arm and durability, but I am still happy with Schaub if we keep him.

That's precisely the issue, at least from my point. I think in 2008 Schaub was clearly better, but in 2007 Cutler was slightly better, and looking forward he does have a better arm, so it's a tossup from a strictly analytical perspective.

But the quarterback is more than simply numbers. He's your identity, or should be. He's your leader. He's the glue. imo, you'd have to have a fairly clear upgrade to justify all the starting over that goes with a major QB change. Otherwise, it's just not worth it, much less tossing in a draft pick as well.

On a related note, intangibles are a part of the process as well. Schaub, by all accounts, is a well-respected leader who immediately asks for the cell-phone number of any player who joins the Texans to reach out to them and bring them into the process. Cutler, well, just read Gene's article at ESPN and you'll see a bit of a contrast.

Bottom line: if the two are close, you stick with the status quo for reasons that should be fairly obvious. You need a pretty clear reason to make the change, and I'm not seeing anything close to that.

Ric

03-03-2009, 10:08 AM

That's precisely the issue, at least from my point. I think in 2008 Schaub was clearly better, but in 2007 Cutler was slightly better, and looking forward he does have a better arm, so it's a tossup from a strictly analytical perspective.
he's also younger, more durable and cheaper. those are three pretty significant upgrades - throw in a better arm and i think it's pretty much a no-brainer you make the deal.

But the quarterback is more than simply numbers. He's your identity, or should be. He's your leader. He's the glue. imo, you'd have to have a fairly clear upgrade to justify all the starting over that goes with a major QB change. Otherwise, it's just not worth it, much less tossing in a draft pick as well.
i think (just my opinion) cutler would improve upon schaub's #s with houston's offense - i certainly don't think he'd be a downgrade. plus, i'm going to assume denver and houston run a pretty similiar offense, so any adjustment period would probably be minor. he went to vanderbilt, for heaven's sake - i have to assume he's a pretty smart guy.

so, imo, the age, durability and cost are why he's a pretty sizeable upgrade. there's not a GM in any sport that wouldn't deal for a younger, more durable, cheaper version of a player. none.

Schaub, by all accounts, is a well-respected leader who immediately asks for the cell-phone number of any player who joins the Texans to reach out to them and bring them into the process. Cutler, well, just read Gene's article at ESPN and you'll see a bit of a contrast.
come on, man - who cares? i mean, it's a nice gesture but on sundays, tripe like that means absolutely nothing. can he play or not - that's what matters. i'd wager the miami comeback earned schaub more respect in that locker room than all of his cell phone calls combined.

now, if cutler is indeed the baby wosijfdjfkljdkdkj paints him out to be - that's certainly problematic. but i thought that article read like a major hatchet job; gene sounded like a guy with an axe to grind, dumping quite a bit on jay's shoulders. i've (sadly) read quite a few pieces in the denver post because of this thread and it really doesn't sound THAT bad - he's pissed; that's about it for now.

and, frankly - i dont blame him for being pissed. doesn't mean he'll remain pissed, or that he'll sabotage his team, undermine his coach..... it just means he's pissed right now. what's the big deal? it's march 3 not september 3.

baller4life315

03-03-2009, 10:28 AM

I don't care what you say. I'm right no matter how stupid I look!!

http://www.matt-house.com/pics/FunnyLookingShavedCat!.jpg

Vinsanity

03-03-2009, 12:36 PM

kaleidosky

03-03-2009, 12:56 PM

Ric - ignore this clown. You've proven your point. Some people around Houston have an issue with anyone out of that 05 draft class other than Mario Williams or maybe there are still closet VY groupies out there who have declared an all out war on (Cutler, Leinart, Bush, etc....).

clearly, that's the issue. people hate the 05 draft class.

show me where people are hating on Cutler, declaring an "all out war" on him. talk about over-dramatic..

Ric

03-03-2009, 01:18 PM

show me where people are hating on Cutler, declaring an "all out war" on him. talk about over-dramatic..
not to instigate - or confirm Vinsanity's opinion (which i don't necessarily disagree with personally) - but in addition to countless attacks on cutler (he's crying, he's throwing a hissy fit, he's acting like a girl), he also posted this:
I won't lie though, part of me is enjoying watching him make a royal ass out of himself. His false sense of entitlement and 'untouchable' label he and his agent are trying to sell are actually quite hilarious considering his mediocre career.
whatever the reason, that's pretty spiteful...

kaleidosky

03-03-2009, 01:37 PM

not to instigate - or confirm Vinsanity's opinion (which i don't necessarily disagree with personally) - but in addition to countless attacks on cutler (he's crying, he's throwing a hissy fit, he's acting like a girl), he also posted this:

whatever the reason, that's pretty spiteful...

yeah I guess. But saying the dude is dumb for the way he's handling a specific situation (at least if you believe one side of the story) is way different from the "all out war"-type stuff that is admittedly going on against Bush/Leinart--and that's not just here.

baller4life may have been hating on cutler, but he's just commetning on cutler's actions over the last 2 weeks--that much is clear. (he called his career mediocre...but you can't say it's a ton more than that so far. Nor is Schaub's. As a career.. but they're young in their careers)

rezdawg

03-03-2009, 04:12 PM

Ric, I dont blame him for being mad or upset...like you said, he's a human being and he's showing those emotions.

BUT, ignoring calls and not returning them is IMMATURE...no matter how you want to cut it. Be mad, fine...but act like a grown up. There is no line of work where that would be acceptable and football is no different.

edwardc

03-03-2009, 06:58 PM

HELL TO THE NO

baller4life315

03-16-2009, 01:05 AM

Dear Ric,

Apology accepted.

Love,

baller4life315

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

Cutler says he can't trust McDaniels
By Chris Mortensen

Denver Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler said Sunday night that he will not report to the team's first meeting on Monday and has formally asked to be traded.

MadMax

03-16-2009, 03:32 AM

I can not believe how out of control this has gotten. I think both sides have played this horribly.

Ric

03-16-2009, 08:42 AM

Dear Ric,

Apology accepted.

Love,

baller4life315
i had a feeling a rock somewhere would be missing it's bottom bunk mate this morning.

hey - remember when you questioned my reading comprehension?...

i never said he handled it well; i said he handled it like a human. a human that's pissed off and appears to have the smarts to sleep on it. there's absolutely, positively nothing wrong with that.

if it lasts beyond this week, then i think we may have an issue. but as of right now, it's been going on for hours. it's no big deal.
...otherwise, nice try - it's been fun.

Ric

03-16-2009, 10:30 AM

I can not believe how out of control this has gotten. I think both sides have played this horribly.
i really and truly believe this is all on josh mcdaniels. i don't disagree that cutler isn't doing his image any favors. but i also read this weekend that he owns two homes in denver and his parents live there as well. so i don't blame him for being upset.

here's peter king's recap of how this all fell apart:

McDaniels did pursue a deal with New England on the first day of free agency, but not intensely, he said, because he and Broncos general manager Brian Xanders were in the middle of doing six free-agent negotiations in the opening two days of free-agency. "I think we were too late to the dance,'' he said, meaning the Chiefs had already made the deal with New England -- a second-round pick for Cassel and linebacker Mike Vrabel. Denver would have given more, likely a first-round pick, but Patriots coach Bill Belichick had his deal done with the Chiefs.

"Do I understand about Jay being hurt that we'd consider this?'' McDaniels said. "Sure. But I can tell you that it wasn't like there was any grand plan by us to trade Jay Cutler. That wasn't the case. But when we've told them [Cutler and Cook], I think it's fallen on deaf ears."
does mcdaniels sound delusional? the key quote, to me, is right here: "I think we were too late to the dance," he said, meaning the Chiefs had already made the deal with New England

he keeps going on and on and on about how they had no "grand plan to trade jay cutler"... and then says point blankly it was only because "we were late to the dance" - not, "we had no plans to attend the dance" - meaning: if we hadn't been busy signing free agents, they would have dealt for cassel!! am i missing something???? and he's at a loss why cutler is upset? he keeps trying to deny what he keeps admitting he did!

i wonder if the broncos are maybe starting to regret the mcdaniels hire?... he has not handled this well at all; can anyone imagine bill belichick letting this get so out of hand?

MadMax

03-16-2009, 10:34 AM

i really and truly believe this is all on josh mcdaniels. i don't disagree that cutler isn't doing his image any favors. but i also read this weekend that he owns two homes in denver and his parents live there as well. so i don't blame him for being upset.

here's peter king's recap of how this all fell apart:

does mcdaniels sound delusional? the key quote, to me, is right here: "I think we were too late to the dance," he said, meaning the Chiefs had already made the deal with New England

he keeps going on and on and on about how they had no "grand plan to trade jay cutler"... and then says point blankly it was only because "we were late to the dance" - not, "we had no plans to attend the dance" - meaning: if we hadn't been busy signing free agents, they would have dealt for cassel!! am i missing something???? and he's at a loss why cutler is upset? he keeps trying to deny what he keeps admitting he did!

i wonder if the broncos are maybe starting to regret the mcdaniels hire?... he has not handled this well at all; can anyone imagine bill belichick letting this get so out of hand?

Among my very closest friend is a Broncos fan who completely agrees with you. He can't believe McDaniels has alienated Cutler. He's been following this a lot more closely than I have, so I defer to that, frankly.

kaleidosky

03-16-2009, 10:35 AM

does mcdaniels sound delusional? the key quote, to me, is right here: "I think we were too late to the dance," he said, meaning the Chiefs had already made the deal with New England

he keeps going on and on and on about how they had no "grand plan to trade jay cutler"... and then says point blankly it was only because "we were late to the dance" - not, "we had no plans to attend the dance" - meaning: if we hadn't been busy signing free agents, they would have dealt for cassel!! am i missing something???? and he's at a loss why cutler is upset? he keeps trying to deny what he keeps admitting he did!

i wonder if the broncos are maybe starting to regret the mcdaniels hire?... he has not handled this well at all; can anyone imagine bill belichick letting this get so out of hand?

I think he stopped denying it if you read the recap in the espn article. McDaniels admitted to the media and to Cutler that he pursued a trade for Cassel. He's just saying "our plan wasn't 'trade jay cutler and make something else work'. It was 'trade for matt cassel b/c he's a guy i've brought up from the beginning and i think he'll be great...otherwise, we're moving forward with Jay' "

And at this point there are 2 sides to the story interms of what happened during hte Saturday meeting and how it all went down. Cutler wants out and thinks it went differently than McDaniels says. So who really knows if Cutler just doesn't like this new offense and is upset that they went after Cassel (as opposed to him STILL being disrespected by McDaniels and STILL not having any job security)

MadMax

03-16-2009, 10:52 AM

I think he stopped denying it if you read the recap in the espn article. McDaniels admitted to the media and to Cutler that he pursued a trade for Cassel. He's just saying "our plan wasn't 'trade jay cutler and make something else work'. It was 'trade for matt cassel b/c he's a guy i've brought up from the beginning and i think he'll be great...otherwise, we're moving forward with Jay' "

And at this point there are 2 sides to the story interms of what happened during hte Saturday meeting and how it all went down. Cutler wants out and thinks it went differently than McDaniels says. So who really knows if Cutler just doesn't like this new offense and is upset that they went after Cassel (as opposed to him STILL being disrespected by McDaniels and STILL not having any job security)

I guess I just have a hard time buying that Cutler would want out of Denver so much were it not for this.

Icehouse

03-16-2009, 11:12 AM

Cutler is diabetic and still managed to play more games than Schuab, lol.

The Broncos run game has sucked for the past few seasons. I don't see Matt doing much better in a system where they knew he was throwing on every down....

kaleidosky

03-16-2009, 11:19 AM

I guess I just have a hard time buying that Cutler would want out of Denver so much were it not for this.

yeah I do too. His side is easier to buy than is McDaniels's.. was just saying that the story has changed--McDaniels isn't saying "we weren't in on the Cassel thing" anymore.

Ric

03-16-2009, 11:21 AM

I think he stopped denying it if you read the recap in the espn article.
you're right - my post was terribly written/reasoned. i said delusional - oblivious would have been a much better choice of words: mcdaniels doesn't seem to recognize (or accept) that this entire mess - a mess that is likely going to cost him a top 10, 25-year old QB, leaving him with chris simms - is his and his alone.

he more or less "cheated" on jay cutler and got caught - a dozen roses or a box of chocolates isn't going to undo what's he's done.

moestavern19

03-16-2009, 11:26 AM

I'm just extremely glad that for once an AFC west is having a major internal crisis and it isn't mine.

Go Cable Guy!

justtxyank

03-16-2009, 11:39 AM

you're right - my post was terribly written/reasoned. i said delusional - oblivious would have been a much better choice of words: mcdaniels doesn't seem to recognize (or accept) that this entire mess - a mess that is likely going to cost him a top 10, 25-year old QB, leaving him with chris simms - is his and his alone.

he more or less "cheated" on jay cutler and got caught - a dozen roses or a box of chocolates isn't going to undo what's he's done.

I agree. I also can't believe he was really pursuing the trade in the first place, but it is what it is.

I like Matt Schaub, but I do believe that Cutler has way more upside. I'd be tempted.

jopatmc

03-16-2009, 12:00 PM

I agree. I also can't believe he was really pursuing the trade in the first place, but it is what it is.

I like Matt Schaub, but I do believe that Cutler has way more upside. I'd be tempted.

Fuggedabout it. How bout a 3 way? Schaub to Denver, Cutler to Tennessee, and Vince Young to Houston? Makes total sense for all parties. And we could probably get Tennessee to throw us a 3rd rounder since VY is sucking it up so bad over there.

:)

Ric

03-16-2009, 12:13 PM

I like Matt Schaub, but I do believe that Cutler has way more upside. I'd be tempted.
nothing against matt schaub - the career numbers are almost identical; the offenses (i have to assume) are similiar; cutler is younger; cutler is more durable; cutler has a better arm; cutler is cheaper...

so, yeah - if they offered us cutler for schaub, the texans would be fools not to make the deal UNLESS cutler really is a big baby. but i have to imagine kubiak has shannahan on speed dial so he could get to the bottom of it pretty quickly.

Joshfast

03-16-2009, 12:42 PM

kaleidosky

03-16-2009, 12:49 PM

nothing against matt schaub - the career numbers are almost identical; the offenses (i have to assume) are similiar; cutler is younger; cutler is more durable; cutler has a better arm; cutler is cheaper...

so, yeah - if they offered us cutler for schaub, the texans would be fools not to make the deal UNLESS cutler really is a big baby. but i have to imagine kubiak has shannahan on speed dial so he could get to the bottom of it pretty quickly.

does Andre like/dislike Schaub? Would he like/dislike Cutler? Those 2 things matter more to me than anything since the 2 are somewhat similar.

Though the #'s don't support it, it has seemed like Cutler is more prone to trying to force it into tight spots when it's not there (esp. over the 2nd half of the season when they weren't doing well?) That's a trait I hate in a QB, and I like that Schaub is more willing to throw it away. Almost negates the "better arm" if he doesn't learn how to harness that power.

Cheaper is also an important factor. But I won't give any weight to durability or being younger...but we've debated that stuff enough.

Anyway, I don't think the Texans even entertain the idea. (barring something like Cutler + a pick for Schaub, which isn't gonna happen cause there will be more interest from some other team...therefore, I dont' think they entertain it)

Ric

03-16-2009, 01:13 PM

Do you really think that the Texans would at least entertain this idea, or do you believe it's something they wouldn't think about.
if offered? they'd foolish not to.

Though the #'s don't support it, it has seemed like Cutler is more prone to trying to force it into tight spots when it's not there (esp. over the 2nd half of the season when they weren't doing well?)
no idea - but denver did have an all-time bad defense and an effective run game (on paper) that scared absolutely nobody. considering only brees threw more passes last year than cutler (616 attempts - 62 more than schaub + rosenfels), i'm going to guess circumstances played a big factor in any "forcing" issues on cutler's part.

cardpire

03-16-2009, 01:21 PM

kaleidosky

03-16-2009, 01:28 PM

seems like cassell for cutler should happen if they are really moving him.

i'm not a big cutler fan, but i would still do cutler for schaub in a heartbeat. it also doesnt seem all that unrealistic to me (if they are planning on getting a starting qb in return for cutler), and schaub seems like he would be a mcdaniels kind of guy. same'ish mold of a qb as cassell.

it's cassel

and he was already traded to KC, so no, it's not going to happen for cutler..

and really not sure how schaub is in the same mold as cassel? i mean, what characteristics are you comparing?

cardpire

03-16-2009, 01:35 PM

it's cassel

and he was already traded to KC, so no, it's not going to happen for cutler..

and really not sure how schaub is in the same mold as cassel? i mean, what characteristics are you comparing?

lol...you really that offended that i put an extra 'l' on cassel's name?

schaub and cassel are pretty much the exact size and build, and are pocket passers, which is exactly what mcdaniel wants, and exactly what he doesn't trust jay cutler to be.

what characteristics are you comparing??

Wakko67

03-16-2009, 02:04 PM

kaleidosky

03-16-2009, 02:28 PM

lol...you really that offended that i put an extra 'l' on cassel's name?

schaub and cassel are pretty much the exact size and build, and are pocket passers, which is exactly what mcdaniel wants, and exactly what he doesn't trust jay cutler to be.

what characteristics are you comparing??

not offended.. maybe offended that you're relating him to Sam Cassell ;)

yeah I don't think that's what McDanielS wants. He liked Cassel cause he has had him as a QB since the beginning in the NFL. And Cassel already knows the offense he is putting in, whereas Cutler has to learn it all. Not huge, but also no small task.

I don't think size, build, and that he is a pocket passer are what made McDaniels think Cassel would be better than Cutler

baller4life315

03-16-2009, 02:57 PM

...otherwise, nice try - it's been fun.

look, i'm not saying it can't become a big deal; i'm saying it's not a big deal right now.

Feel free to spin that however you want. I'm not looking for a "You were right, I was wrong" concession from you. I don't care. I was just taken back that somebody could actually derive a serious argument defending Cutler in this instance. He's 90% in the wrong in the matter, IMO. The other 10% falls on the feet of McDaniels for initially denying the Cassel reports.

MadMax

03-16-2009, 03:04 PM

Feel free to spin that however you want. I'm not looking for a "You were right, I was wrong" concession from you. I don't care. I was just taken back that somebody could actually derive a serious argument defending Cutler in this instance. He's 90% in the wrong in the matter, IMO. The other 10% falls on the feet of McDaniels for initially denying the Cassel reports.

even now?? after mcdaniels admits they did initiate trade conversations?? meaning he lied earlier when he said they didn't...even now, you don't think that's wacky?

baller4life315

03-16-2009, 03:32 PM

even now?? after mcdaniels admits they did initiate trade conversations?? meaning he lied earlier when he said they didn't...even now, you don't think that's wacky?

That's still a common occurrence in professional sports though. Players don't deserve an explanation from a coach, GM or owner if their name pops up in a trade rumor. Enter Jay Cutler: somebody too arrogant to accept that yes, even the glorious Jay Cutler, isn't immune to [in this case] one isolated trade rumor.

I agree totally that McDaniels was in the wrong for initially denying that they tried to deal for Cassel. That's the only area where he was in the wrong. Everything else is on Cutler, IMO.

I think Cutler made up his mind he wanted out a while ago. Back when the first reports of him possibly requesting a trade came out it was in response to his displeasure over the Broncos firing his old o-coordinator. After that there were the reports that Cutler and his parents curiously put their Denver area homes up for sale. Finally, we have the whole Matt Cassel fiasco and Cutler's subsequent immature reactions.

His actions suggest he appears upset that his status as a franchise quarterback apparently doesn't come with the ability to have any pull within the front offices. He wanted his o-coordinator to stay -- see ya. He wanted an apology from a front office staff trained to entertain 100,000 proposals like the one Cutler was involved in -- he didn't get it.

MadMax

03-16-2009, 03:38 PM

That's still a common occurrence in professional sports though. Players don't deserve an explanation from a coach, GM or owner if their name pops up in a trade rumor. Enter Jay Cutler: somebody too arrogant to accept that yes, even the glorious Jay Cutler, isn't immune to [in this case] one isolated trade rumor.

I agree totally that McDaniels was in the wrong for initially denying that they tried to deal for Cassel. That's the only area where he was in the wrong. Everything else is on Cutler, IMO.

I think Cutler made up his mind he wanted out a while ago. Back when the first reports of him possibly requesting a trade came out it was in response to his displeasure over the Broncos firing his old o-coordinator. After that there were the reports that Cutler and his parents curiously put their Denver area homes up for sale. Finally, we have the whole Matt Cassel fiasco and Cutler's subsequent immature reactions.

His actions suggest he appears upset that his status as a franchise quarterback apparently doesn't come with the ability to have any pull within the front offices. He wanted his o-coordinator to stay -- see ya. He wanted an apology from a front office staff trained to entertain 100,000 proposals like the one Cutler was involved in -- he didn't get it.

and i think all of this was mcdaniels playing tough..."i'm in charge here, and i'll show you!!!" even if that cost him a good young QB.

look if this whole thing costs the broncos cutler, then it's stupid as hell. they've seriously hurt the team if that's the case. it's their job to manage this thing...including athletes acting immaturely. and they've botched it big time.

and by the way...i keep hearing all this stuff about, "everyone can be traded." but other than drew brees and that exceptional circumstance, can you name me a quarterback at cutler's age with his relative success who has been the subject of trade rumors?? i'm guessing you can't.

baller4life315

03-16-2009, 04:19 PM

and i think all of this was mcdaniels playing tough..."i'm in charge here, and i'll show you!!!" even if that cost him a good young QB.

look if this whole thing costs the broncos cutler, then it's stupid as hell. they've seriously hurt the team if that's the case. it's their job to manage this thing...including athletes acting immaturely. and they've botched it big time.

McDaniels did what any coach or GM should have done in the same situation: explained the situation, made it clear no apology was necessary and made steps to move forward by essentially asking, "Jay, is this something we can put behind us?". By all accounts he did that.

Cutler, to me, sounds power hungry. Not only the reasons I mentioned but it appears he was searching for some sort of "We're sorry, Jay. We were wrong" admission that he could hang over their heads. No front office is going to give that type of leverage to a player.

and by the way...i keep hearing all this stuff about, "everyone can be traded." but other than drew brees and that exceptional circumstance, can you name me a quarterback at cutler's age with his relative success who has been the subject of trade rumors?? i'm guessing you can't.

What relative success do you speak of? And guessing, indeed you are. You want a name? When when was the last time an offseason passed where we didn't hear Donovan McNabb mentioned in trade talks? Somebody that's demonstrably more accomplished, and quite frankly, twice the player. Have you ever seen McNabb act this irrationally in response to those rumors? Nope, McNabb is a true professional that understands the nature of the game and the cliched motto that "sports are a business" model that permeates everything that takes place from a roster transaction standpoint in sports. Cutler has acted far from professionally throughout all this.

justtxyank

03-16-2009, 04:29 PM

What relative success do you speak of? And guessing, indeed you are. You want a name? When when was the last time an offseason passed where we didn't hear Donovan McNabb mentioned in trade talks? Somebody that's demonstrably more accomplished, and quite frankly, twice the player. Have you ever seen McNabb act this irrationally in response to those rumors? Nope, McNabb is a true professional that understands the nature of the game and the cliched motto that "sports are a business" model that permeates everything that takes place from a roster transaction standpoint in sports. Cutler has acted far from professionally throughout all this.

In fairness, McNabb trade stories are media speculation. Never before, to my knowledge, has McNabb found out that his team tried to trade him and another team made a deal instead. Also, we don't know the whole story about what went on between coach and player. I'm reasonably certain that Cutler was told he was their QB, blah blah blah, and then found out they were trying to deal him. You can't lie to players and expect them to be ok with you.

Lastly, I laugh at the idea that McNabb is twice the player Cutler is. He's certainly more accomplished...

MadMax

03-16-2009, 04:56 PM

McDaniels did what any coach or GM should have done in the same situation: explained the situation, made it clear no apology was necessary and made steps to move forward by essentially asking, "Jay, is this something we can put behind us?". By all accounts he did that.

Cutler, to me, sounds power hungry. Not only the reasons I mentioned but it appears he was searching for some sort of "We're sorry, Jay. We were wrong" admission that he could hang over their heads. No front office is going to give that type of leverage to a player.

What relative success do you speak of? And guessing, indeed you are. You want a name? When when was the last time an offseason passed where we didn't hear Donovan McNabb mentioned in trade talks? Somebody that's demonstrably more accomplished, and quite frankly, twice the player. Have you ever seen McNabb act this irrationally in response to those rumors? Nope, McNabb is a true professional that understands the nature of the game and the cliched motto that "sports are a business" model that permeates everything that takes place from a roster transaction standpoint in sports. Cutler has acted far from professionally throughout all this.

In no way is Donovan McNabb "a quarterback at cutler's age with his relative success." McNabb is an old man with a big contract.

I'm talking about a young QB who has been a Pro Bowler early on. Who has had some success and shows signs of sticking around for a long time. Who is still inexpensive, to boot.

The only comparable example I can think of is Drew Brees...but that was a peculiar situation with the Chargers already having his replacement in house...who was younger and wouldn't command a long-term contract as soon.

I keep hearing that players like this are shopped all the time...but I can't think of any examples other than the Brees scenario who is comparable to Cutler's situation.

Rocket Fan

03-16-2009, 05:15 PM

This Vandy alum says HELL FREAKING YESSSS!!!

I second that statement :)

baller4life315

03-16-2009, 05:53 PM

In no way is Donovan McNabb "a quarterback at cutler's age with his relative success." McNabb is an old man with a big contract.

I'm talking about a young QB who has been a Pro Bowler early on. Who has had some success and shows signs of sticking around for a long time. Who is still inexpensive, to boot.

The only comparable example I can think of is Drew Brees...but that was a peculiar situation with the Chargers already having his replacement in house...who was younger and wouldn't command a long-term contract as soon.

I keep hearing that players like this are shopped all the time...but I can't think of any examples other than the Brees scenario who is comparable to Cutler's situation.

I mean, he's 32-years-old and it's the same point: there are ways to handle a situation like this and there are ways NOT to handle a situation like this. McNabb and Cutler are perfect examples of this.

You're right that there's not much of a precedence for situations like this. It's a unique situation brought on by unusual circumstances.

blathersby

03-16-2009, 06:44 PM

I know there's pages and pages devoted to this thread, but I'm going to go ahead and post my gut response:
YYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!

Schaub and a 2nd rounder? DONE.
Schaub and the #15 pick? WHY THE HELL NOT!?

Cutler would go GA-GA throwing to the Texans' receivers. And they'd get a QB who can ACTUALLY STAY HEALTHY.

Hell, I'd trade McNabb and the #1 for Cutler. It would make me forgive the Eagles for letting Dawkins go to the Broncos.

rezdawg

03-16-2009, 07:07 PM

The Broncos run game has sucked for the past few seasons. I don't see Matt doing much better in a system where they knew he was throwing on every down....

2008:
4.8 ypc (2nd in the NFL)
116.4 ypg (12th in NFL, with Houston at 13)

2007:
4.6 ypc (3rd in the NFL)
122.3 ypg (9th in the NFL, with Houston at 22)

moestavern19

03-16-2009, 07:52 PM

The Broncos are desperately trying to make it look like they aren't going to be forced to deal him.

They'll lose a considerable amount of leverage in any would-be deal.

plutoblue11

03-16-2009, 08:16 PM

Why are people acting like this new?

QBs and other players, superstars to above average NFLers have done things, like this before.

Even a rookie (unproven), John Elway who threatened not to play, after being drafted by Baltimore Colts and would opt to play baseball with the Yankees (minor leagues).

If it is not Alonzo Mourning or a number of players who were traded to Jazz, or it's Eli Manning not wanting to play for the Chargers or Manny wanting to be traded out of Boston. Even, T.O. wanting out of SF and Philadelphia.

Whether it is Scottie Pippen complaining about his contract (or refusing to leave the bench) and Kobe Bryant having rumblings with management over the way the team is going.

What is wrong with a player wanting to leave, especially if it is a franchise player who is either: a) wanting a new deal, b) not getting along with team management or coach, c) not getting along with other players, or d) the organization is not either incompetent or not committed to winning.

In this scenario, I would much rather keep Cutler and get rid of McDaniels than vice versa. What has McDaniels done to prove he is a worthy NFL head coach with this screw up he has made very early in his tenure? Besides, if there is a storm brewing between the franchise QB and a new (unproven) head coach . . . why let things go any further, if that QB is unhappy?

Cutler on the other hand, has been a great young QB and has top 3-5 potential. There are a dozen of teams who make a bid to get Cutler, who is coming off a well deserved pro-bowl year. Denver could get some great deals for him, much better than what NWE got for Cassell. Basically, how many QBs in the draft have the same kind of potential or achievement possiblities as Cutler.

I know Denver doesn't want him to leave, but you can't disgruntled players on your teams, especially superstar. There's too much in stake and potential damage involved. Best thing to do, is let Cutler go for a good deal from a team in dire need of a QB.

It would be another story, if it were doing the season or halfway through training camp. But, the season just ended almost a month ago.

Chamillionaire

03-17-2009, 03:26 AM

i'd have to think about it, but i wouldn't give up a 2nd and our starting qb for him. too much. maybe like a fourth round pick and a future 1st or something like that.

MadMax

03-17-2009, 08:32 AM

In this scenario, I would much rather keep Cutler and get rid of McDaniels than vice versa. What has McDaniels done to prove he is a worthy NFL head coach with this screw up he has made very early in his tenure? Besides, if there is a storm brewing between the franchise QB and a new (unproven) head coach . . . why let things go any further, if that QB is unhappy?

Cutler on the other hand, has been a great young QB and has top 3-5 potential. There are a dozen of teams who make a bid to get Cutler, who is coming off a well deserved pro-bowl year. Denver could get some great deals for him, much better than what NWE got for Cassell. Basically, how many QBs in the draft have the same kind of potential or achievement possiblities as Cutler.

My Denver friends echo this. They say they feel like they know what they have and could have in Cutler...they have no idea if McDaniels is worth a damn...and they're pissed that this new coach has come in and tried to trade their starting QB before he even hits the practice field with him.

Ric

03-17-2009, 08:44 AM

Feel free to spin that however you want.
it's not spin, baller. it really, truly isn't - reread just the quote you pulled from me: look, i'm not saying it can't become a big deal; i'm saying it's not a big deal right now.

my position has remained consistent: unless (or until) cutler did something disruptive (like miss a madatory team meeting or... you know, demand a trade), it wasn't a big deal. well... he's now done something disruptive... it's a big deal and you won't ever read me arguing otherwise.

He's 90% in the wrong in the matter, IMO. The other 10% falls on the feet of McDaniels for initially denying the Cassel reports.
look, MadMax is right: there's next-to no precedent for this. even mcnabb's situation is different because he wasn't dealing with a brand new coach/offensive coordinator. that's why this is a big deal.

if your new coach/offensive coordinator is trying to replace you before you have even one practice together... how is that not destructive to building a relationship? how is cutler 90% in the wrong?? please provide ONE instance - in any field you want - where that wouldn't create a giant problem?

and - based on his OWN account -mcdaniels has handled it horribly on top of that. to come out of a meeting with your QB that you hoped would heal wounds saying, "we were just late to the dance" regarding cassel (implication being he would be a bronco otherwise)... i mean, how is jay cutler supposed to feel?

it's football, so it's easy to view it in a manly sport where emotion is outlawed... but cutler has roots in denver - two homes, his family also owns another home; the broncos have a storied tradition, especially at the QB position where he was poised to be elway's heir apparent... throw in the fact talks had him going to several places including detroit...

i don't blame him for being upset; i don't blame him for not trusting mcdaniels, and, frankly, i don't blame him for wanting out under these circumstances. why would ANYONE want to be somebody else's plan b?

Ric

03-17-2009, 09:19 AM

i'd have to think about it, but i wouldn't give up a 2nd and our starting qb for him. too much. maybe like a fourth round pick and a future 1st or something like that.
i would offer them schaub period. i doubt they'll get a better offer. maybe detroit throws a 1 at them... but do they really want to groom a rookie QB? or sign jeff garcia? or tunr it over to chris simms? schaub is starting NFL qb with a track record of success very similiar to cutler's.

so schaub alone is fair value, given the circumstances.

baller4life315

03-17-2009, 01:45 PM

it's not spin, baller. it really, truly isn't - reread just the quote you pulled from me: look, i'm not saying it can't become a big deal; i'm saying it's not a big deal right now.

my position has remained consistent: unless (or until) cutler did something disruptive (like miss a madatory team meeting or... you know, demand a trade), it wasn't a big deal. well... he's now done something disruptive... it's a big deal and you won't ever read me arguing otherwise.

I was just having some fun with your "IT'S NO BIG DEAL" claim meanwhile his agent was barking the differences could be irreconcilable, Cutler's history of attitude/ego issues and the simple vibe you got that this wouldn't all just go away. My stance was pretty consistent too and as it turns out I was right about this being more than a mere hiccup.

look, MadMax is right: there's next-to no precedent for this. even mcnabb's situation is different because he wasn't dealing with a brand new coach/offensive coordinator. that's why this is a big deal.

if your new coach/offensive coordinator is trying to replace you before you have even one practice together... how is that not destructive to building a relationship? how is cutler 90% in the wrong?? please provide ONE instance - in any field you want - where that wouldn't create a giant problem?

and - based on his OWN account -mcdaniels has handled it horribly on top of that. to come out of a meeting with your QB that you hoped would heal wounds saying, "we were just late to the dance" regarding cassel (implication being he would be a bronco otherwise)... i mean, how is jay cutler supposed to feel?

it's football, so it's easy to view it in a manly sport where emotion is outlawed... but cutler has roots in denver - two homes, his family also owns another home; the broncos have a storied tradition, especially at the QB position where he was poised to be elway's heir apparent... throw in the fact talks had him going to several places including detroit...

i don't blame him for being upset; i don't blame him for not trusting mcdaniels, and, frankly, i don't blame him for wanting out under these circumstances. why would ANYONE want to be somebody else's plan b?

From a historical standpoint I agree there isn't much of a precedent for this. What stating that proves I have no idea. Stating that doesn't change the fact that there's still a problem. Stating that doesn't get you any closer to a solution. This is an unique situation. I'm not sure how applying the conventional wisdom of never trading your 25-or-under-franchise-QB applies to this situation. Is the Cutler camp supposed to hear that then just forget it all? Is the Denver camp supposed to hear that then just call up Cutler and say "Whatever it takes. DONE"? By all accounts, it sounds like Denver doesn't appear ready to grant Cutler a trade. Obviously that might change once the draft and what not rolls around but for right now you get the feeling Denver is willing to just ignore all the BS and move forward. If Cutler is as 'commitment happy' as you make him sound, shouldn't this be considered progress?

The irony in all this is how Cutler was even acquired in the first place. Jake Plummer was fresh off of leading the Broncos to the AFC Championship Game (before losing to my Steelers :D ) after which Cutler was drafted in the offseason. You seem pretty big on empathizing with players: what kind of picture does that type of move paint? Furthermore, the next season the Broncos were 7-4 when Shanahan made the decision to replace the erratic Plummer with then-rookie Cutler. How do you think this made Plummer "feel"? Did Plummer create a media circus? Did he do everything humanly possible to become a giant distraction? No, he didn't because he's a mature professional athlete.

We've beaten this to death. I respect your unusual approach to the matter. I'm sure the 14.5 Cutler apologists out there really do feel having your feelings hurt warrants all this nonsense: lashing out at your superiors, ignoring phone calls, demanding a trade whenever the front office refused to cave in to his implied demand for an apology, ignoring protocol in the matter.

I've stated McDaniels was in the wrong for initially denying it but I respect his manner and tone going into this meeting. Again, I feel he did what any coach or GM should have done in the matter: explain the situation, make it clear [from a leverage standpoint] that no apology was necessary and make steps towards moving forward. By Cutler's own admission he didn't respond well to McDaniels' "So Jay, is this something we can put behind us?" underlying question throughout the entire sit-down.

I've also stated how I think Cutler's had his mind made up for quite some time. That his response to the Jeremy Bates firing, the "coincidence" that he & his parent's homes have been up for sale and this recent Cassel debacle all paint the picture of somebody very unhappy in their current situation. I think he's upset his status as a franchise QB does not come with any pull within the front offices. I also think his ego is so off-the-charts ridiculous he now won't be happy unless his superiors cave into his demands and start groveling. You seem so intent on trying to compare this situation to a business scenario -- Can you imagine a big corporation begging for forgiveness from an employee that they feel was in the wrong in first place?

Ric

03-18-2009, 01:19 PM

How do you think this made Plummer "feel"? Did Plummer create a media circus? Did he do everything humanly possible to become a giant distraction? No, he didn't because he's a mature professional athlete.
apples and oranges, really. first of all, you’re completely recasting jake plummer as some modern day johhny unitas. he lost his job because of poor play on the field. he posted a 69 QB rating that year while throwing more INTs (13) than TDs (11). his YPA was an awful 6.29, down more than a yard from the previous year, and his completion % was the lowest of his career since 1999 (55.2). the team was 7-4 in spite of jake plummer, not because of him.

if they had traded for cassel with the idea of creating some competition and cutler whined, i’d think differently, more in line with where you’re coming from. but this idea he should be a “man” and be OK with a “cheating” head coach/offensive coordinator, who has made it very clear he prefers someone else, is silly, IMO.

what is his incentive to play for josh mcdaniels right now? what has josh mcdaniels done to ensure cutler he has his best interests in mind? he tried to replace him and then lied to him about it… and this is 90% cutler’s fault???? i just don’t see it. i’ve never excused cutler but to throw this all on him when all he’s done is react to a situation mcdaniels created….

I'm sure the 14.5 Cutler apologists out there really do feel having your feelings hurt warrants all this nonsense: lashing out at your superiors, ignoring phone calls, demanding a trade whenever the front office refused to cave in to his implied demand for an apology, ignoring protocol in the matter.
go back to the links you’ve provided throughout this thread, baller4life315 - all those bronco sites: the number is far greater than 14.5. it'll be considerably more 8 games into the chris simms era...

you keep derisively dismissing cutler's actions - cry baby, hissy fit, hurt feelings... i'm at a loss how he's SUPPOSSED to react to his new coach/offensive coordinator trying to replace him before they even step onto the practice field together.

I've also stated how I think Cutler's had his mind made up for quite some time. That his response to the Jeremy Bates firing, the "coincidence" that he & his parent's homes have been up for sale and this recent Cassel debacle all paint the picture of somebody very unhappy in their current situation.
i agree with most of this (though i think the houses were put up for sale after the cassel debacle???); it all seems perfectly viable, logical… so where does the baby, hissy fit, hurt feelings come in? if he’s unhappy with the ousting of his coach and coordinator and then the new coach/coordinator introduces himself by trying to trade for his guy….

i just don’t find being irrevocably pissed about the situation that far off base.

You seem so intent on trying to compare this situation to a business scenario -- Can you imagine a big corporation begging for forgiveness from an employment that they feel was in the wrong in first place?
granted, few businesses pay their employees such outrageous salaries so as to create such a power struggle - that's unique to professional sports and not really the point.

his reaction - being pissed - is one, i’m sure, many employees would share if they were put in a similar situation. and if they DID have such power, would likely exercise it they way cutler has.

Oski2005

03-18-2009, 02:00 PM

MadMax

03-18-2009, 02:07 PM

I'm curious what the people who want Cutler think it would take to get him? I heard Matt Jackson saying Shaub and our number 1 and I was floored. What the hell would be the point of that? If you believe Cutler would be an upgrade, is it worth it to slightly improve at QB and to lose a 1st or 2nd round pick when we have more pressing needs?

No way I'd give up Schaub and a #1. If the Broncs trade Cutler it will be because they have to. That presses value down. Schaub is a real, legit starter. If healthy, he can put up numbers as well as Cutler can. I don't know if straight up for Schaub would get it....you might have to include a draft pick....but you shouldn't have to give up a first rounder.

Ric

03-18-2009, 02:21 PM

No way I'd give up Schaub and a #1. If the Broncs trade Cutler it will be because they have to. That presses value down. Schaub is a real, legit starter. If healthy, he can put up numbers as well as Cutler can. I don't know if straight up for Schaub would get it....you might have to include a draft pick....but you shouldn't have to give up a first rounder.
yeah, i think cutler would definitely be an upgrade but when you start including picks... well, i'm not sure the upgrade is that significant.

if i'm denver, i'd be thrilled to turn jay cutler into matt schaub - given the circumstances.

Ric

03-18-2009, 02:25 PM

I heard Matt Jackson saying Shaub and our number 1 and I was floored.
wait - that's what he thinks it'll take to land cutler? or is that what he's willing to deal to land cutler? either/or is ridiculous, frankly. schaub can't stay healthy; otherwise, he's a top 10 28-year old QB without the wear and tear of most 28-year old QBs.

denver would be moronic to not see schaub as a "win" given the circumstances.

MadMax

03-18-2009, 02:31 PM

wait - that's what he thinks it'll take to land cutler? or is that what he's willing to deal to land cutler? either/or is ridiculous, frankly. schaub can't stay healthy; otherwise, he's a top 10 28-year old QB without the wear and tear of most 28-year old QBs.

denver would be moronic to not see schaub as a "win" given the circumstances.

And Denver fans would be PISSED!!! :)

Ric

03-18-2009, 02:38 PM

And Denver fans would be PISSED!!! :)
do you think? i mean, pissed that they dealt cutler and "downgraded" - sure. but to land a quality, young-ish starter at the end of such a massive cluster... i'd think they'd be thrilled.

MadMax

03-18-2009, 02:57 PM

do you think? i mean, pissed that they dealt cutler and "downgraded" - sure. but to land a quality, young-ish starter at the end of such a massive cluster... i'd think they'd be thrilled.

I think if they lose Cutler, they're going to be pissed...no matter what. i don't think they're going to see the lemonade in the lemons...i think they'll be furious with McDaniels.

Oski2005

03-18-2009, 02:58 PM

Matt Jackson was saying what he thinks it would take. Then Rich Lord piped in saying he didn't think that would be enough and I nearly had to pull over.

studogg

03-18-2009, 03:06 PM

Matt Jackson was saying what he thinks it would take. Then Rich Lord piped in saying he didn't think that would be enough and I nearly had to pull over.

immediately discount anything rich lord says. The man knows as much about Houston sports as my 2 year old son.

Ric

03-18-2009, 03:06 PM

Matt Jackson was saying what he thinks it would take. Then Rich Lord piped in saying he didn't think that would be enough and I nearly had to pull over.
jeez... seems inflated.

i can see denver being justified in wanting schaub and a pick - makes sense: cutler, on paper, is an upgrade. but i wouldn't do it if i were the texans.

interestingly, the cassel deal is really, i think, going to complicate things. he AND ANOTHER PLAYER went for a 2 - how is denver going to convince teams that cutler is 2 or 3 premium picks better than matt cassel? i would think 2 day 1 picks and maybe a future pick is going to be the market value.

then again, i can't ever remember a 25-year old pro bowl QB being traded so...

baller4life315

03-18-2009, 03:19 PM

apples and oranges, really. first of all, you’re completely recasting jake plummer as some modern day johhny unitas. he lost his job because of poor play on the field. he posted a 69 QB rating that year while throwing more INTs (13) than TDs (11). his YPA was an awful 6.29, down more than a yard from the previous year, and his completion % was the lowest of his career since 1999 (55.2). the team was 7-4 in spite of jake plummer, not because of him.

I wasn't trying to recast Plummer as anybody but you could tell by the context of what I wrote I was implying Plummer knew how to do something Cutler doesn't: WIN. Plummer led the Broncos to three playoff appearances in three years. One of those years they were a game away from the Super Bowl.

Cutler has never even had a winning season. Cutler has never led a team to the playoffs, has an unimpressive 17-20 record as a starter and threw more INT's last year than anybody in the league not named Brett Favre. Furthermore, it's hard not to point out his whopping yardage numbers are undeniably skewed due to the Broncos always playing from behind. I may not like Cutler but he has one of the best arms the in the league. The point is even Matt Leinart could throw against a fricken prevent.

You say i'm overrating Plummer? Right back at ya with your boy, Cutler. Only my argument doesn't hinge on Jake Plummer's value in the future.

if they had traded for cassel with the idea of creating some competition and cutler whined, i’d think differently, more in line with where you’re coming from. but this idea he should be a “man” and be OK with a “cheating” head coach/offensive coordinator, who has made it very clear he prefers someone else, is silly, IMO.

what is his incentive to play for josh mcdaniels right now? what has josh mcdaniels done to ensure cutler he has his best interests in mind? he tried to replace him and then lied to him about it… and this is 90% cutler’s fault???? i just don’t see it. i’ve never excused cutler but to throw this all on him when all he’s done is react to a situation mcdaniels created….

Cheating? :confused:

His incentive to play for Josh McDaniels right now is that he's still the starter. It's not like McDaniels plans to bench him. Cutler claims he still loves playing in Denver, right? Go out there and prove him wrong. If Cutler was half as passionate about his performance on the field as he is feeding his ego the Broncos might actually scare somebody!

you keep derisively dismissing cutler's actions - cry baby, hissy fit, hurt feelings... i'm at a loss how he's SUPPOSSED to react to his new coach/offensive coordinator trying to replace him before they even step onto the practice field together.

An obvious fundamental disagreement between us is my opinion of a trade rumor vs. your opinion of a malicious attempt to rid yourself somebody. They are clearly not the same thing.

i agree with most of this (though i think the houses were put up for sale after the cassel debacle???); it all seems perfectly viable, logical… so where does the baby, hissy fit, hurt feelings come in? if he’s unhappy with the ousting of his coach and coordinator and then the new coach/coordinator introduces himself by trying to trade for his guy….

i just don’t find being irrevocably pissed about the situation that far off base.

Cutler was quoted in that ESPN article I posted that his house has been up for sale for a couple months and that it was merely a "coincidence" regarding the timing issue. As I mentioned, I don't buy that. I think he's wanted out for quite some time and is using this situation to spark the inferno and shift blame from himself to the Broncos.

Republic

03-18-2009, 03:23 PM

Schaub is a real, legit starter. If healthy, he can put up numbers as well as Cutler can

I agree. This thread is pointless. These guys are essentially slightly better than average QB's who wouldn't make the starting lineup on the best teams but may be able to develop nicely in an "up and coming" team's lineup. Thus, why make any move?

Lateral moves are something to give fanboys something to analyze. This one in particular helps neither team involved. Well, okay, maybe it helps Denver unload a problem. Are we really that concerned about Denver that we help them with that problem? No. I mean, honestly, why don't we just go ahead and offer up Andre to Buffalo for TO? Let's help Buffalo before that situation implodes.

:confused:

Raven Lunatic

03-18-2009, 03:32 PM

Matt Jackson was saying what he thinks it would take. Then Rich Lord piped in saying he didn't think that would be enough and I nearly had to pull over.

I don't think this is right. I was listening to them on the way home yesterday around 4 pm and Rich Lord kept insisting that Schaub and our #15 pick is where the negotiations would START, indicating he thought we would have to give up even more than that. Jackson was arguing with him saying he didn't think Denver would get anywhere near that much because they had so little leverage. Rich Lord is such a goddamn moron. He gets these takes that have no basis in logic or history and he'll argue them with this his ridiculous tone of superiority. I don't know how Pallilo put up with him for so long.

I'm pretty sure Matt Jackson didn't think it would take anywhere near Schaub and our 1st round pick to land Cutler. Matt's usually pretty level headed.

MadMax

03-18-2009, 03:46 PM

I agree. This thread is pointless. These guys are essentially slightly better than average QB's who wouldn't make the starting lineup on the best teams but may be able to develop nicely in an "up and coming" team's lineup. Thus, why make any move?

Lateral moves are something to give fanboys something to analyze. This one in particular helps neither team involved. Well, okay, maybe it helps Denver unload a problem. Are we really that concerned about Denver that we help them with that problem? No. I mean, honestly, why don't we just go ahead and offer up Andre to Buffalo for TO? Let's help Buffalo before that situation implodes.

:confused:

A lateral move on the field...

but Cutler is younger and cheaper. If you're the Texans, you jump all over that.

Ric

03-18-2009, 03:46 PM

These guys are essentially slightly better than average QB's who wouldn't make the starting lineup on the best teams but may be able to develop nicely in an "up and coming" team's lineup.
good teams - with very few exceptions - already have good-to-great QBs. so it's completely disingenuous to knock them because they wouldn't start ahead of a peyton manning or a tom brady.

Lateral moves are something to give fanboys something to analyze.
if you're getting younger and more durable with a higher ceiling, it's not a lateral move - which is why your andre/TO analogy is a fail.

studogg

03-18-2009, 03:49 PM

if you're getting younger and more durable with a higher ceiling, it's not a lateral move - which is why your andre/TO analogy is a fail.

The diabetes would have me questioning the durability over the long run.

Raven Lunatic

03-18-2009, 03:57 PM

Ric

03-18-2009, 04:21 PM

I wasn't trying to recast Plummer as anybody but you could tell by the context of what I wrote I was implying Plummer knew how to do something Cutler doesn't: WIN.
yeah, plummer certainly did a lot of winning in arizona didn’t he - 34-62 as a starter with the cardinals. funny how he suddenly “learned” to win consistently when he was dealt to an infinitely better *team*… probably a coincidence, right?

saddling W/L records on any individual player is absolutely ridiculous. the broncos didn’t win because of jake plummer nor did they lose because of jay cutler.

Plummer led the Broncos to three playoff appearances in three years. One of those years they were a game away from the Super Bowl.
for the record, plummer was 1-3 in four playoff games with the broncos. i don’t point that out to rip the guy but if you’re going to pretend jake plummer is joe montana reincarnated, a small dose of reality is needed.

he won when he was part of a great team; he lost when the team wasn’t so great – that’s the story of very nearly every qb – nay, player to ever play the game.

Cutler has never even had a winning season. Cutler has never led a team to the playoffs, has an unimpressive 17-20 record as a starter and threw more INT's last year than anybody in the league not named Brett Favre.
he also threw more passes than any other player in the league not named drew brees (who threw one fewer INT) and his defense gave up more points than any other defense not named detroit or st. louis – you know, the two teams picking first and second in next month’s draft.

the two are related.

Furthermore, it's hard not to point out his whopping yardage numbers are undeniably skewed due to the Broncos always playing from behind.
but the 17-20 record is HIS fault?...

You say i'm overrating Plummer? Right back at ya with your boy, Cutler. Only my argument doesn't hinge on Jake Plummer's value in the future.
how am i overrating him? he’s a 25-year old former top 11 pick who’s made a pro bowl and is about to start his third full season as a starter in the NFL. there aren’t too many guys *available* with his pedigree. and i’m going to guess that if he is dealt, the line for his services will be long and distinguished. (like my johnson! /goose)

An obvious fundamental disagreement between us is my opinion of a trade rumor vs. your opinion of a malicious attempt to rid yourself somebody. They are clearly not the same thing.
LOL - it wasn’t a rumor; mcdaniels not only owned up to it - he explicitly implied – after a heal-the-wounds meeting with cutler – that the only reason cassel wasn’t a bronco is because the team was “ too late to the dance.”

i don’t think mcdaniels is malicious; i think he’s stupid, arrogant and in way over his head. and he’s probably derailed his coaching career before it even started by pissing off (and likely losing) the one – and only – thing he had going for him in denver.

Ric

03-18-2009, 04:23 PM

I think the durability knock is overblown too. Do people really believe that had Cutler suffered the two illegal hits that knocked Schaub out for 5-6 games total (can't remember the exact amount) WOULD'T have done the same to Cutler? I look at replays of those hits and I think anyone would have missed several games.
maybe... the sample size is small-ish. but i'd feel better with cutler, who's never missed a start in 2+ years, than schaub, who's missed 10 in a slightly smaller time frame.

MadMax

03-18-2009, 04:27 PM

how am i overrating him? he’s a 25-year old former top 11 pick who’s made a pro bowl and is about to start his third full season as a starter in the NFL. there aren’t too many guys *available* with his pedigree. and i’m going to guess that if he is dealt, the line for his services will be long and distinguished. (like my johnson! /goose)

LOL - it wasn’t a rumor; mcdaniels not only owned up to it - he explicitly implied – after a heal-the-wounds meeting with cutler – that the only reason cassel wasn’t a bronco is because the team was “ too late to the dance.”

i don’t think mcdaniels is malicious; i think he’s stupid, arrogant and in way over his head. and he’s probably derailed his coaching career before it even started by pissing off (and likely losing) the one – and only – thing he had going for him in denver.

This is dead on. I completely agree. If I'm a Broncos season ticket holder I'm pissed that this new coach walks in and starting trying to trade my starting QB who is fresh off a Pro Bowl appearance at age 25. The idea of trading a player like that is so stupid that I can't find an analogy.

DaDakota

03-18-2009, 04:48 PM

Schaub for Cutler.....

:D

DD

Oski2005

03-18-2009, 04:58 PM

I think the durability knock is overblown too. Do people really believe that had Cutler suffered the two illegal hits that knocked Schaub out for 5-6 games total (can't remember the exact amount) WOULD'T have done the same to Cutler? I look at replays of those hits and I think anyone would have missed several games.

I completely agree with this and that's why Matt deserves at least another year. If we have to trade a 1st or 2nd round pick, we are only hurting our ability to improve where improvement is needed the most, the defense.

Republic

03-18-2009, 06:31 PM

A lateral move on the field...

but Cutler is younger and cheaper. If you're the Texans, you jump all over that.

Not at the risk of a greater expense in bringing a potential problem into a locker room. Cutler for Schaub in any context makes no sense. Period. Schaub is not exactly over the hill, so I'm not sure why we'd want to go younger. If we do want to get younger, let's get it through the draft. Novel concept eh? Develop our own? As for cheaper, I can see this as a benefit but again, not if it becomes an "expense" in having a problem child in the locker room.

Republic

03-18-2009, 06:39 PM

good teams - with very few exceptions - already have good-to-great QBs. so it's completely disingenuous to knock them because they wouldn't start ahead of a peyton manning or a tom brady.

The point wasn't a knock. It's a statement in fact that these guys are essentially lateral talent moves, so it doesn't make a difference whether we have Schaub or Cutler starting. We're basically the same team with the same expectations with either at the helm.

if you're getting younger and more durable with a higher ceiling, it's not a lateral move - which is why your andre/TO analogy is a fail.

Are the Texans not already one of the youngest teams in the league? Are you wanting to draft high school players? How young do you think we need to go? Are the Texans rebuilding? That's typically when teams make moves for the purposes of "going young". We aren't doing that. We didn't build anything yet to initiate a "rebuild".

I don't know how much you know about diabetes but I think you may want to reconsider calling Cutler a more "durable move". :confused:

And - as far as the TO point, all it meant was it seems some of you are simply trying to find lateral talent players that come with baggage and head issues. I offered up another that I thought would appeal to some of you ;) It was a joke, not an analogy.

Republic

03-18-2009, 06:48 PM

which is why your andre/TO analogy is a failure.

Fixed.

I tell you...you damned kids and the internets. I now return you back to your world of twitter books. Pfft. Kids.

Ric

03-18-2009, 07:03 PM

The point wasn't a knock. It's a statement in fact that these guys are essentially lateral talent moves, so it doesn't make a difference whether we have Schaub or Cutler starting. We're basically the same team with the same expectations with either at the helm.
i don't know how else to explain it: cutler is younger, more durable and cheaper. those represent significant upgrades.

from a measurables standpoint, he has a better arm and is faster. given that, a case could be made that with a better team around him (which houston has), cutler would represent an upgrade on the field, too - making the deal a no-brainer.

assuming a 1-for-1 swap, why would the texans NOT do this? maybe cutler is a problem in the locker room - fortunately, gary kubiak probably has mike shanahan's phone # lying around somewhere and could get some insight on the subject. it wouldn't be a crapshoot.

Are the Texans not already one of the youngest teams in the league? Are you wanting to draft high school players? How young do you think we need to go? Are the Texans rebuilding? That's typically when teams make moves for the purposes of "going young". We aren't doing that. We didn't build anything yet to initiate a "rebuild".
what an absolutely silly statement... when talent-level and experience is, at the very least, equal - when and more importantly why would you EVER choose the older player?

just a silly position to take all around.

I don't know how much you know about diabetes but I think you may want to reconsider calling Cutler a more "durable move".
i know he's made 37 consecutive starts and has never had an issue with it. assuming perfect helath rom here on out, it'll be 2011 before schaub makes his 37th consecutive start. and he's 2-3 years older.

And - as far as the TO point, all it meant was it seems some of you are simply trying to find lateral talent players that come with baggage and head issues. I offered up another that I thought would appeal to some of you ;) It was a joke, not an analogy.
sorry; based on how silly the rest of your post was, i assumed it was just more of the same.

besides, joke or not - why wouldn't you deal johnson for TO? age certainly isn't a factor at all, right?....

Ric

03-18-2009, 07:04 PM

Fixed.
thanks, gramps. i'm 37, btw...

rrj_gamz

03-18-2009, 07:35 PM

Hell to tha motha f'n yeah...

will it happen, i doubt it but this is a proven qb that is familiar with the offense Kubiak runs...why the hell not...

MadMax

03-18-2009, 08:53 PM

Not at the risk of a greater expense in bringing a potential problem into a locker room. Cutler for Schaub in any context makes no sense. Period. Schaub is not exactly over the hill, so I'm not sure why we'd want to go younger. If we do want to get younger, let's get it through the draft. Novel concept eh? Develop our own? As for cheaper, I can see this as a benefit but again, not if it becomes an "expense" in having a problem child in the locker room.

because you don't know what you're getting in a draft. it's a crap shoot. we've seen what cutler is capable of.

look, i'm a schaub fan. but if you told me schaub for cutler straight up i'd take it everyday.

Republic

03-18-2009, 09:09 PM

because you don't know what you're getting in a draft. it's a crap shoot. we've seen what cutler is capable of.

look, i'm a schaub fan. but if you told me schaub for cutler straight up i'd take it everyday.

I don't subscribe to the "once burned by David Carr, always burned by drafting a QB" way of thinking. I wouldn't take Cutler for Schaub. That's our essential difference. I think Schaub looks brilliant at times and I feel better about his durability (Cutler - diabetic). I just wouldn't trade for Cutler. Why not go for someone else who's not a headcase or a blood sugar risk? Texans and their fans should set their standards higher.

Republic

03-18-2009, 09:09 PM

thanks, gramps. i'm 37, btw...

Sorry, you sounded like a 14 yr old Counter-Strike player.

MadMax

03-18-2009, 09:12 PM

I don't subscribe to the "once burned by David Carr, always burned by drafting a QB" way of thinking.

I don't either. But I do feel safer with a proven commodity -- a guy who has played the game at a level high enough to be a Pro Bowler -- vs. a guy who has never touched a pro field or tried to read a pro defense.

I wouldn't take Cutler for Schaub. That's our essential difference. I think Schaub looks brilliant at times and I feel better about his durability (Cutler - diabetic). I just wouldn't trade for Cutler. Why not go for someone else who's not a headcase or a blood sugar risk? Texans and their fans should set their standards higher.

Nothing wrong with that. We just disagree. Diabetic or not, Cutler has played very well in a very short period of time. To me, has more upside than Schaub. And that's not to say I don't like Schaub.

Republic

03-18-2009, 09:17 PM

i don't know how else to explain it: cutler is younger, more durable and cheaper. those represent significant upgrades.

from a measurables standpoint, he has a better arm and is faster. given that, a case could be made that with a better team around him (which houston has), cutler would represent an upgrade on the field, too - making the deal a no-brainer.

assuming a 1-for-1 swap, why would the texans NOT do this? maybe cutler is a problem in the locker room - fortunately, gary kubiak probably has mike shanahan's phone # lying around somewhere and could get some insight on the subject. it wouldn't be a crapshoot.

what an absolutely silly statement... when talent-level and experience is, at the very least, equal - when and more importantly why would you EVER choose the older player?

just a silly position to take all around.

i know he's made 37 consecutive starts and has never had an issue with it. assuming perfect helath rom here on out, it'll be 2011 before schaub makes his 37th consecutive start. and he's 2-3 years older.

sorry; based on how silly the rest of your post was, i assumed it was just more of the same.

besides, joke or not - why wouldn't you deal johnson for TO? age certainly isn't a factor at all, right?....

Look, it's as simple as this...

Trading for the sake of different personnel does not improve the team. Cutler is NOT an upgrade over Schaub in my opinion. This topic is nothing more than material for fanboys to analyze. It makes no real sense to anyone concerned about the results on the field. For the sake of discussion, let's say we traded for Cutler. Okay, the Texans have Cutler. Are you any more excited about our Super Bowl hopes? I'm not. We're statistically going to be roughly the same. On top of that, I have a hunch that Schaub is a better potential team leader than Cutler.

This year may be different from any past season. That is, our problems and upgrades need to be on the defensive side of the ball. I think our offense is good enough as it is. We know we have a running back now, we know basically what we have catching the ball, and we have a functional utility type QB who is slightly better than average. That's not too bad. Let's work on defense. You know, something that improves the team.

If you consider any of this silly, I really don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't expect you to see it the same was as I do. You're too l33t. You clearly need to pwn something.

BoomShakalaka

03-18-2009, 09:34 PM

Yes, trade everybody

Air Langhi

03-18-2009, 09:54 PM

They need to fire the coach. You don't trade away franchise QB's.

To those who wouldn't trade Matt Shaub for Cutler are crazy. Cutler has a lot better ARM than shaub.

Ric

03-18-2009, 10:25 PM

Trading for the sake of different personnel does not improve the team. Cutler is NOT an upgrade over Schaub in my opinion.
he's younger. he's more durable. he's cheaper. he's more experienced (37 starts to 24 - and two of those were in '04 & '05). all four are irrefutable upgrades, and fairly significant ones at that. there's not a personnel person alive who would argue otherwise. hell, there's not a SANE person alive who would argue otherwise.

if you want to argue cutler's not an upgrade on the field, ok. their statistics suggest they'd be roughly equivalent though i'd argue schaub has a much better team around him, suggesting cutler would outplay him with the same cast (since i think denver's offense is significantly worse).

but i can't believe i have to argue that a younger, more durable, cheaper QB with, at worst equivalent talent, is an upgrade.

Are you any more excited about our Super Bowl hopes? I'm not.
no offense but who gives a **** what you (or i) think? if rick smith and gary kubiak are making decisions based on whether or not Republic gets more excited about our Super Bowl hopes, they should put us all out of misery now and ship the team off to tennessee. it's no way to run a football team.

On top of that, I have a hunch that Schaub is a better potential team leader than Cutler.
awesome! i look forward to winning the fantasyland trophy where meaningless things like leadership matter.

This year may be different from any past season. That is, our problems and upgrades need to be on the defensive side of the ball.
congratulations - you're now starting an argument with absolutely no one. yeah, we all know where the upgrades are needed. trading schaub for cutler straight up has no bearing on our ability to do that.

except it gets us a cheaper QB (there's a salary cap now in the nfl) who's more durable which means maybe we don't have to sink $9M into a back-up. and since he's younger, in theory, we can put off by a year or 2 having to look for his replacement. but i'm guessing having additional money to spend on defense is meaningless.......

I think our offense is good enough as it is... we have a functional utility type QB who is slightly better than average.
yeah, why upgrade our "functional utility type QB who is slightly better than average"? championship teams are built around functional utility type QBs who are slightly better than average.

You clearly need to pwn something.
zing! got me again! (yawn)

Ric

03-18-2009, 10:32 PM

Sorry, you sounded like a 14 yr old Counter-Strike player.
still?... really?... what can we do to convince you you're (slightly) better off sticking to the topic than wading in flaccid insults like this?

Republic

03-19-2009, 01:18 AM

i look forward to winning the fantasyland trophy where meaningless things like leadership matter.

Congrats, you now have zero credibility as a football analyst. It's almost as if you discovered the NFL when we got the Texans. Watch a few more years then re-visit this statement.

roflmcwaffles

03-19-2009, 02:46 AM

Fact is after 1 season w/ a coaching genius: Matt Cassel was a name in a basically 1 for 1 trade w/ Broncos for Cutler, if they are willing to give up Cutler for just Cassel, I think Schaub + a late pick is a pretty damn good offer.

Cutler is a STUD outside of his fumbling problem. If he can learn to hold on to the football, the Texans would be going places with him.

I'd love to see the Texans do this trade.

Raven Lunatic

03-19-2009, 07:24 AM

maybe... the sample size is small-ish. but i'd feel better with cutler, who's never missed a start in 2+ years, than schaub, who's missed 10 in a slightly smaller time frame.

Ric, I respect a lot of your opinions on stuff and usually you analyze things pretty objectively, but I think you are being inconsistent here. You are applying a negative to Schaub just based on a bad feeling solely because of the number of games he's missed, not taking into account the situations those injuries occurred. You'll wade into the nitty-gritty details of why Jake Plumber's record in Denver was not indicative of how good a QB he was, but for Schaub, he's missed 10 games and that's all you need to know. But that's a minor point.

And Republic, you look really desparate going to the "you post like a 14 year old" well THREE times in THREE separate posts when all Ric did was use the popular internet meme "fail" once surrounded by lucid, well presented arguments that, frankly, tear yours to shreds. And this coming from someone that agrees with you that we shouldn't trade Schaub straight up for Cutler.

justtxyank

03-19-2009, 08:27 AM

Congrats, you now have zero credibility as a football analyst. It's almost as if you discovered the NFL when we got the Texans. Watch a few more years then re-visit this statement.

You and Ryan17Wagner should start a new message board.

MadMax

03-19-2009, 08:38 AM

You and Ryan17Wagner should start a new message board.

right? :)

Ric

03-19-2009, 10:21 AM

You are applying a negative to Schaub just based on a bad feeling solely because of the number of games he's missed, not taking into account the situations those injuries occurred.
i agree - i've argued in other threads that schaub has most certainly been a victim of rotten luck.

but two quick, important follow-ups:

1) he also missed significant time in college because of an injury. at some point - and i'm not saying we're there yet - but at some point, you have to start to wonder... look, david carr was hit repeatedly each and every week - early, late, guys taking cheap shots... and he missed (i'm going from memory) 5 starts in his five years here.

when does it stop being a product of luck and start being an issue with schaub? two straight years plus an injury history in college... we're close to that point.

2) until he does it - and he never has - i think it's dangerous to assume schaub can stay upright for 16 games. it just is. two years isn't an enormous sample size; but it's not a small one, either. to ignore it when constructing a team would be every bit as irresponsible as assuming mcgrady and/or yao will be healthy for 82 games. until it happens...

i like matt schaub quite a bit. except... he misses too many games, meaning he's also missing too many practices. because of the way his contract is structured, they have an out after this year. if he doesn't play 14+ games and stay relatively healthy... he's probably done here. i would be floored if they entered a 4th season playing the "if schaub stays healthy..." card.

so if, right now, i could deal that question mark for a guy who's started 37 consecutive games and is actually younger but more experienced than schaub - not to mention cheaper - i mean... i wouldn't hesitate. add that his measureables are better and he'd be coming from a system i'm guessing is very similiar to ours...

as i've said, i think it's a no brainer. and that's not by any stretch a knock on schaub. 25-year old pro bowl QBs who play in your system simply don't often fall into your lap very often.

(and thanks, btw, for the rest of your post.)

Ric

03-19-2009, 10:50 AM

Congrats, you now have zero credibility as a football analyst.
darn it!

(psst - i'm not a football analyst. "analyst" - what does that even mean?...)

It's almost as if you discovered the NFL when we got the Texans. Watch a few more years then re-visit this statement.
have you ever noticed most "leaders" seem to always be on winning teams? probably a coincidence, right? or maybe their leadering guarantees wins!! but then... kurt warner was a leader in st. louis. he was a leader again in arizona - did he forget how to lead when he was with the giants? how many wins did he *lead* new york to during his year there?

your boy, jake plummer, is another great example. what a leader he was in denver. arizona? yeah, not so much... vince young - VINCE! in 2006, i literally thought his middle name was leader. funny how, as his career tanked, people stopped writing flowing prose about his leadershiping, isn't it?

i could go on and on... point is: anyone that thinks "leadership" is some tangible talent that translate to victories is silly. it helps to have a guy set an example and keep teammates focused on the task at hand - but i don't think it's a "skill" on par with actual measureables. nor does that person have to be your QB. troy aikman won three super bowls and had the personality of a microwave oven; do you think aloof, anti-social troy aikman was leading that team? (answer: no. michael irvin was.)

baller4life315

03-19-2009, 12:28 PM

yeah, plummer certainly did a lot of winning in arizona didn’t he - 34-62 as a starter with the cardinals. funny how he suddenly “learned” to win consistently when he was dealt to an infinitely better *team*… probably a coincidence, right?

saddling W/L records on any individual player is absolutely ridiculous. the broncos didn’t win because of jake plummer nor did they lose because of jay cutler.

for the record, plummer was 1-3 in four playoff games with the broncos. i don’t point that out to rip the guy but if you’re going to pretend jake plummer is joe montana reincarnated, a small dose of reality is needed.

These are all copouts. Using your logic you're only successful if you win a Super Bowl. Plus, you just got done telling me how comparing W/L records is ridiculous yet you had no problem pointing out Plummer's record once he got to the playoffs. You can spin that however you want. I’m clearly not “reincarnating” Plummer as anybody – just pointing out how you’re “Mr. Empathy”. You’re the guy making the argument that Cutler’s actions are excusable merely because somebody hurt his feelings. What do you think was going through Plummer’s mind after the Broncos drafted the great, Jay Cutler? Three playoff appearances, a game away from the Super Bowl, winning record as a starter – then you draft a guy to essentially replace him at some point. Hmmmmmm…….regardless of whether or not it was a smart decision (it was) and regardless of how you’ll refuse to see the connection (you won’t), this isn’t apples and oranges. Plummer was more deserving of the “commitment” you speak of yet didn’t get it, BUT STOP THE PRESS whenever Jay Cutler loses a bunch of games then hears his name in a trade rumor. Give me a break.

Bottom line: Plummer won in Denver, Cutler hasn't. You can kid yourself into thinking those Denver teams weren't talented enough to be playoff contenders. You can kid yourself into thinking they weren't pre-season playoff teams according to a number of analysts. You can kid yourself into thinking late season collapses weren’t the real reason they continue to miss the playoffs. That’s fine – whatever helps your case of making Cutler look completely blameless.

but the 17-20 record is HIS fault?...

No, not entirely his fault but this football. It goes without saying that QB is the most important position on the field so you're judged accordingly. Nobody said it was fair, that's just the way it is, and the way it is: Cutler is a mistake-prone big numbers guy that routinely underperforms and loses big games from weeks 12-17 every year.

how am i overrating him? he’s a 25-year old former top 11 pick who’s made a pro bowl and is about to start his third full season as a starter in the NFL. there aren’t too many guys *available* with his pedigree. and i’m going to guess that if he is dealt, the line for his services will be long and distinguished. (like my johnson! /goose)

The entire argument for keeping Cutler is based off of his upside and value in the future. If Cutler were 30-years old or if this were a Jake Delhomme, Jeff Garcia or whoever pulling these childish antics I guarantee your stance would be different. Why is that? Because even though he hasn’t accomplished a damn thing in this league, people know he has talent and he’s young so apparently there is some sort of implied ‘BS tolerance’ level you’re supposed to accept in situations like this. I only agree with that to an extent. If I were in the Broncos front office I would be just as perplexed as I am now thinking, “Who in the hell does this guy think he is? Did we win something and I just missed it?!”.

That having been said, I agree totally there will be a long line of teams interested in acquiring him if, indeed, this mess results in a trade. There should be. What I just don't understand is if Cutler is as 'commitment happy' as you make him sound, shouldn't the Broncos' explicit stance that they don't plan on trading him be considered progress in that regard? It's not like they were going to bench him. If he loves being a Bronco as much as he claims you would think he should be able to just move on, but as I stated: I think Cutler has wanted out for quite some time and will use this McDaniels/Cassel thing as a smokescreen in order to make that happen.

LOL - it wasn’t a rumor; mcdaniels not only owned up to it - he explicitly implied – after a heal-the-wounds meeting with cutler – that the only reason cassel wasn’t a bronco is because the team was “ too late to the dance.”

i don’t think mcdaniels is malicious; i think he’s stupid, arrogant and in way over his head. and he’s probably derailed his coaching career before it even started by pissing off (and likely losing) the one – and only – thing he had going for him in denver.

It's still a hypothetical scenario. Hypothetical, theoretical, speculatory....whatever. It all paints the same picture: something that was considered but didn't happen. Just another day in the office. You take that reality vs. your extreme "THEY TRIED TO GET RID OF HIM" stance and I can't agree with that. Considering a trade in sports isn't the automatic indictment you make it out to be.

And if you think McDaniels is the stupid and arrogant party in this matter I give up completely. I don't think I can respond to that.

P.S. You never explained your "cheater" accusation. Dare I ask....?

P.S.S. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3995461

Jay Cutler's agent says his client's relationship with the Denver Broncos disintegrated after the firing of coach Mike Shanahan and a broken promise that Shanahan's offensive staff would largely remain intact, according to a report on NFL.com.

Bus Cook told the Web site that Cutler met with Broncos owner Pat Bowlen shortly after Shanahan was fired on Dec. 30 to express his concerns.

"Jay was disappointed in the firing of Mike Shanahan and met with the owner. The owner assured him everything would be fine. The owner said he had the second-best offense in football and would leave the offensive staff intact. Jay was good with that. Then he hires an offensive coach who gets rid of the staff," Cook told NFL.com.

New Broncos coach Josh McDaniels overhauled the offensive staff after his arrival.

Bowlen, however, says he doesn't remember having the conversation with Cutler that Cook references.

"I really have had no discussion with Jay or the agent. Mike was fired right after the season. At that point, there was no need to have a discussion with Jay. Now, actually, to be fair, I don't think I had that discussion. I don't recall it. I know I'm getting up there in age, and I am not sure of that discussion," Bowlen told NFL.com.

If you read through all the BS what you should take away from this is this actually started with the firing of Shanahan rather just his offensive coordinator. So we have the Shanahan/Jeremy Bates firings, Cutler’s own admission that his home has been up for sale for months then we have his unusual reaction to this whole McDaniels/Cassel thing – this guy wanted out of Denver to some degree since day 1. It appears he’s ready to twist this McDaniels thing in any direction necessary in order to “finally” secure his way out of Denver. At least, that’s the way I am reading all this.

Raven Lunatic

03-19-2009, 12:55 PM

1) he also missed significant time in college because of an injury. at some point - and i'm not saying we're there yet - but at some point, you have to start to wonder... look, david carr was hit repeatedly each and every week - early, late, guys taking cheap shots... and he missed (i'm going from memory) 5 starts in his five years here.

Looking at his Wiki page, I see where he injured his shoulder in his senior year and didn't return for "several games." Other than that, his early seasons it says the team was doing some kind of weird QB platooning system where they would alternate starts. Is the shoulder injury the one you were referring to? He was injured in the first game and was back by the 4th game. Not knowing the details of that shoulder injury, that does add somewhat to my concern about his brittleness, but I wouldn't count 2+ games missed in his college career as significant time.

when does it stop being a product of luck and start being an issue with schaub? two straight years plus an injury history in college... we're close to that point.

Well, I guess it stops being a product of luck when he starts sustaining injuries that don't look so severe on television that I would assume any QB would be knocked out by them. I haven't really seen that yet.

2) until he does it - and he never has - i think it's dangerous to assume schaub can stay upright for 16 games. it just is. two years isn't an enormous sample size; but it's not a small one, either. to ignore it when constructing a team would be every bit as irresponsible as assuming mcgrady and/or yao will be healthy for 82 games. until it happens...

Again, the biggest conclusion I think a reasonable person can draw from Schaub's history so far is that we don't really have enough evidence one way or another. If he gets injured again this season and misses 4-5 games, odds are it won't be on an illegal hit that a player gets fined/suspended for. It's pretty unlikely that happens to a guy 3 times in 3 seasons. So if he misses significant time, we'll know a lot more. But, irresponsible or not, I don't think the team has to assume anything about Schaub's durability at this point. It's way too early to consider trading him based on the injuries he's sustained, and he's going to be your QB for all of this season one way or another. Make a decision then, when you have more info.

I might be swayed that a guy like Cutler would be worth acquiring for Schaub straight up, but I doubt the Broncos would settle for that and anything beyond Matt is too much, in my opinion. So it's kind of a moot point on that front.

i like matt schaub quite a bit. except... he misses too many games, meaning he's also missing too many practices. because of the way his contract is structured, they have an out after this year. if he doesn't play 14+ games and stay relatively healthy... he's probably done here. i would be floored if they entered a 4th season playing the "if schaub stays healthy..." card.

I agree. And I would have no problem if that was the decision they made.

As a side note, isn't it fun to debate durability issues with your starting QBs rather than debating EVERY SINGLE OTHER POSSIBLE QB SKILL outside of durability issues? Holy crap I'm glad David Carr is off this team.

Ric

03-19-2009, 02:03 PM

Plus, you just got done telling me how comparing W/L records is ridiculous yet you had no problem pointing out Plummer's record once he got to the playoffs.
done so only to counter your reinvention of jake plummer as a later-day terry bradshaw.

What do you think was going through Plummer’s mind after the Broncos drafted the great, Jay Cutler?
i have no idea. but drafting an heir apparent when your starting QB is 32 is *light years* different from being traded/not traded by your brand new head coach/offensive coordinator. really and truly apples and oranges. sorry, man – it just is. i appreciate what you’re saying – it’s not totally invalid – it’s just entirely different.

Plummer was more deserving of the “commitment” you speak of yet didn’t get it, BUT STOP THE PRESS whenever Jay Cutler loses a bunch of games then hears his name in a trade rumor. Give me a break.
plummer earned his demotion; please stop trying to cover this with jake plummer’s greatest hits. what he did from 2002-2005 is irrelevant. he was 32, playing terribly, and the team had top 11 pick money invested in his eventual replacement.

that is very much a football decision. and i know, i know – and i agree: trading cutler is, too: you’re absolutely right. and we can argue the intent and merit of doing so - my only contention is that the situation mcdaniels created is what made it such a mess.

You can kid yourself into thinking those Denver teams weren't talented enough to be playoff contenders. You can kid yourself into thinking they weren't pre-season playoff teams according to a number of analysts. You can kid yourself into thinking late season collapses weren’t the real reason they continue to miss the playoffs. That’s fine – whatever helps your case of making Cutler look completely blameless.
baller4life315…

denver’s defense ranked 29th overall last year - 30th in points allowed, 27th against the run and 26th against the pass. that is not a playoff-caliber team. sorry; it simply isn’t. meanwhile, btw - the offense ranked 2nd overall – 16th in points scored; 12th rushing and 3rd passing.

compare that to the 2005 team that came within a game of the super bowl: defense: 15th overall (3rd in points allowed; 2nd against the run; 29th against the pass); offense: 5th overall (7th in points scored; 2nd rushing; 18th passing)

the only area where you can quantitatively state denver was better in 2008 than 2005 was… the passing game. granted, a big chunk was likely due to a better defense and more effective running game… but to think cutler wouldn’t have won with that ’05 team……

No, not entirely his fault but this football. It goes without saying that QB is the most important position on the field so you're judged accordingly. Nobody said it was fair, that's just the way it is, and the way it is: Cutler is a mistake-prone big numbers guy that routinely underperforms and loses big games from weeks 12-17 every year.
sorry, dumping W/L on an individual is the ultimate copout; it’s lazy and ill-informed.

you’re right, cutler hasn’t set the world on fire in december (he was well below average in their final three losses last year – but the defense also gave up 30, 30 and 52 points in those games) – but, in my defense: i’ve never argued he’s bart starr.

If Cutler were 30-years old or if this were a Jake Delhomme, Jeff Garcia or whoever pulling these childish antics i guarantee your stance would be different.
well, yeah – of course. replacing a delhomme or garcia (both 35+, i believe, and both pretty exceedingly mediocre) with a younger, probably better QB is different than rattling the cages of your 25-year old supposed franchise QB.

look, if shanahan had orchestrated this, that’s entirely different because he knows cutler and what he does and doesn’t have. the problem is that mcdaniels is new and he chooses to introduce himself by trading his QB… only, he was too late to the dance: MY BAD! let’s design some plays together! that’s an absolutely terrible, exceedingly stupid way to kick things off.

What i just don't understand is if Cutler is as 'commitment happy' as you make him sound, shouldn't the Broncos' explicit stance that they don't plan on trading him be considered progress in that regard?
sorry, man – where did the “commitment happy” phrase come from and why are you putting it in quotes as if to indicate it’s something i said? my opinion is that mcdaniels has seriously FUBAR’ed this entire situation and cutler is justified in being pissed about it. and one of the reasons he might be pissed is because he has roots in denver – he owns two homes there; his parents live there: isn't that a pretty legitimate reason (among many) to be upset?

i think mcdaniels has handled every single facet of this horribly.

It's still a hypothetical scenario. Hypothetical, theoretical, speculatory....whatever. It all paints the same picture: something that was considered but didn't happen. Just another day in the office. You take that reality vs. your extreme "THEY TRIED TO GET RID OF HIM" stance and i can't agree with that. Considering a trade in sports isn't the automatic indictment you make it out to be.
isn’t anything short of an actual trade technically hypothetical? if they’re exchanging offers with other teams and he’s telling peter king cassel isn’t a bronco not because they’re committed to jay cutler but because they were “too late to the dance” – i think it goes beyond hypothetical.

a hypothetical is sitting around the office with co-workers: ‘hey, wouldn’t it be cool to trade cutler and get cassel?’ that's not what this is - they were engaging with other teams, baller4life315.

And if you think McDaniels is the stupid and arrogant party in this matter i give up completely. i don't think i can respond to that.
sorry; i do. and if he’s dealt, you’re going to hear more of that, i think. and when the team sputters and fails with chris simms, it’ll grow louder. he really could not have handled this much worse.

P.S. You never explained your "cheater" accusation. Dare i ask....?
oh yeah: at some point i compared this to a marriage; that mcdaniels was the cheater who thought buying flowers and a box of chocolates should solve everything.

eh… what’reya gonna go?

If you read through all the BS what you should take away from this is this actually started with the firing of Shanahan rather just his offensive coordinator. So we have the Shanahan/Jeremy Bates firings, Cutler’s own admission that his home has been up for sale for months then we have his unusual reaction to this whole McDaniels/Cassel thing – this guy wanted out of Denver to some degree since day 1. It appears he’s ready to twist this McDaniels thing in any direction necessary in order to “finally” secure his way out of Denver. At least, that’s the way i am reading all this.
completely and totally possible – in fact, more and more, i probably lean that way. but that’s a far cry from “baby, hissy fit, he got his feelings hurt”…

frankly, it’s pretty clever. because if he really did want out, what recourse did he have? who would be dumb enough to trade a 25-year old pro bowl QB? enter josh mcdaniels and his “get out of jail free” card.

BMoney

03-19-2009, 02:04 PM

Ric

03-19-2009, 02:36 PM

Not knowing the details of that shoulder injury, that does add somewhat to my concern about his brittleness, but I wouldn't count 2+ games missed in his college career as significant time.
did you know it occurred on the first series of the season? not really relevant, per se – but kind of sublimely appropriate, all things considered.

anyhoo… so he missed 2 games his senior season and didn’t finish another 1 – his first as the full-time starter. (we’re FF’ing past his three years on the falcons’ bench…) he then misses 5 starts his first season as a full-time starter in the NFL; 5 more his second season as a full-time starter, and altogether there are 3 other games he doesn’t finish over those two years.

so out of a possible 45 starts as a full-timke starter, he didn’t finish a whopping 16 of them. we’re talking about 35%... that’s a pretty staggering number.

like i said, at some point it’s more than just rotten luck…

It's way too early to consider trading him based on the injuries he's sustained, and he's going to be your QB for all of this season one way or another. Make a decision then, when you have more info.
it’s not just the injuries – cutler is younger and cheaper. (and i’d argue better.) read any preview of the texans this year: i promise every single one of them will contain something to the effect of “…if schaub can stay healthy…” – it’s far and away one of the biggest question marks going into the season.

and i’m all fine and dandy with giving him another year – like i said, i like him a lot and have defended him here in this forum. BUT… guys like jay cutler don’t come available every offseason. this discussion is ONLY happening because of that rather unbelievable occurrence.

I might be swayed that a guy like Cutler would be worth acquiring for Schaub straight up, but I doubt the Broncos would settle for that and anything beyond Matt is too much, in my opinion. So it's kind of a moot point on that front.
i can’t imagine a team making a better offer than schaub in terms of filling the QB position. is brady quinn a better QB? no way. if they’re content with stockpiling draft choices, they yes: it’s moot. but going into next year with chris simms as your QB is pretty dicey… schaub would allow them to make a glass of lemonade from a situation full of lemons.

As a side note, isn't it fun to debate durability issues with your starting QBs rather than debating EVERY SINGLE OTHER POSSIBLE QB SKILL outside of durability issues? Holy crap I'm glad David Carr is off this team.
the irony is that carr’s far and away greatest strength (beyond his hair and manly good looks) was his durability. i’ve never seen a QB take the kind of punishment he did week after week. if you could take just that aspect and combine it with the rest of schaub’s skills, we’d have ourselves one hell of a QB.

BrooksBall

03-19-2009, 02:37 PM

You people are out of your mind. Denver was down to their seventh string running back- they brought back bag stealer Tatum Bell, for Christ's sake- had a defense that was even worse than the Texans and Cutler got them to .500. Yeah, he's a whiner, yeah he comes across as immature, but he's a damn quarterback. He's young, he makes less than Schaub, he has more physical skills and stays healthy. Put him on the Texans and watch out. The Texans won't do it, but I would. It's a no brainer.

I'm with you. Schaub has some game but he still strikes me as somewhat soft, both physically and mentally. Cutler would be an upgrade.

Raven Lunatic

03-19-2009, 02:38 PM

You people are out of your mind. Denver was down to their seventh string running back- they brought back bag stealer Tatum Bell, for Christ's sake- had a defense that was even worse than the Texans and Cutler got them to .500. Yeah, he's a whiner, yeah he comes across as immature, but he's a damn quarterback. He's young, he makes less than Schaub, he has more physical skills and stays healthy. Put him on the Texans and watch out. The Texans won't do it, but I would. It's a no brainer.

Well, be more realistic, though. Because I don't believe Denver would ever accept Schaub straight up for Cutler. I think they would risk Cutler threatening to sit on the bench before doing that. So how many and what round draft picks would you be willing to include with Schaub to make the deal work?

Ric

03-19-2009, 02:43 PM

So how many and what round draft picks would you be willing to include with Schaub to make the deal work?
none; you hope you (and cutler) have them over a barrel and that landing schaub - from their perspective - somewhat salvages a losing situation.

Raven Lunatic

03-19-2009, 02:49 PM

I'm not going to really argue the rest of it anymore since I think we are on the verge (if not already there) of just debating semantics. I agree that durability is a question mark. I just don't think that question has been answered yet, even to a small degree, based on the details of the injuries we've seen so far.

i can’t imagine a team making a better offer than schaub in terms of filling the QB position. is brady quinn a better QB? no way. if they’re content with stockpiling draft choices, they yes: it’s moot. but going into next year with chris simms as your QB is pretty dicey… schaub would allow them to make a glass of lemonade from a situation full of lemons.

I can't really imagine a team offering up more than Schaub either, but I don't think that necessarily means the Bronco's would settle for a player of Schaub's caliber. I think Cutler's trade demands are ultimately going to be a lot less fruitful than he probably thinks (or at least hopes). They may try to trade him further, now. And if they had Schaub offered up by his lonesome they MIGHT accept that...but I don't think the Texans would make that offer and I can't think of any other QBs out there on Schaub's level (or above) whose team wouldn't mind trading him.

So ultimately, they are either going to trade Cutler for a bunch of draft picks or call his bluff and see if he is willing to actually sit on the bench for an entire season rather than play for a coach that tried to trade him. Ultimately, I think Cutler plays and plays well. If the Broncos have a good season, things could easily be mended by the end of the season and everyone forgets about this. If they do trade him for draft picks, I don't think they would settle on Chris Simms. I'm sure they'd pursue some other, more veteran QB. Perhaps try to pry McNabb from Philly for some of those draft picks from Cutler's trade.

Has there been any response yet from the new coach or front office in response to Cutler's trade demand?

baller4life315

03-19-2009, 03:26 PM

done so only to counter your reinvention of jake plummer as a later-day terry bradshaw.

Here you go again. Copout City, USA.

i have no idea. but drafting an heir apparent when your starting QB is 32 is *light years* different from being traded/not traded by your brand new head coach/offensive coordinator. really and truly apples and oranges. sorry, man – it just is. i appreciate what you’re saying – it’s not totally invalid – it’s just entirely different.

that is very much a football decision. and i know, i know – and i agree: trading cutler is, too: you’re absolutely right. and we can argue the intent and merit of doing so - my only contention is that the situation mcdaniels created is what made it such a mess.

isn’t anything short of an actual trade technically hypothetical? if they’re exchanging offers with other teams and he’s telling peter king cassel isn’t a bronco not because they’re committed to jay cutler but because they were “too late to the dance” – i think it goes beyond hypothetical.

a hypothetical is sitting around the office with co-workers: ‘hey, wouldn’t it be cool to trade cutler and get cassel?’ that's not what this is - they were engaging with other teams, baller4life315.

Again, the situation you speak of is a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office. This cannot be stressed enough because this is the point you are overlooking/exaggerating the most. It was a rumor! Speculation! An idea! Something discussed that never happened. If we had a dime for every time a situation like this came up in the world of sports we would both be millionaires. Please stop trying to give substance to something that never took place!

I’ll assume since you post here you’re an NBA fan too. Think of what happened with Tyson Chandler: traded, fails physical, return to sender. If I went by your logic this would be like dropping the atomic bomb on the Hornets when in reality it was a business decision that, quite frankly, wasn’t that big of a deal. Both sides accepted the outcome and didn’t make a bigger issue out of it. You can say “NBA vs. NFL = apples and oranges” but in this case it’s an EXTREME example of a situation that went much further than this Cassel/Cutler thing ever did.

How would you classify this Cassel/Cutler uhh….”thing”? I’ve stated it’s simple trade talk that happens all the time. Apparently you see much more to it. How would you classify this? Give me a word if my labels of speculation, hypothetical and whatever are all wrong.

McDaniels is guilty only of initially denying those reports. Everything else is on Cutler, how he reacted (er, overreacted) and the consequential actions from both sides as a result to how Cutler reacted. If that still sounds like a McDaniels-created mess then I am simply at a loss for words.

plummer earned his demotion; please stop trying to cover this with jake plummer’s greatest hits. what he did from 2002-2005 is irrelevant. he was 32, playing terribly, and the team had top 11 pick money invested in his eventual replacement.

I agree he earned his demotion despite the 7-4 record, but what he did from 2002-2005 is not irrelevant. Not at all. That’s calling having a good track record and proving you can lead winning a team to the playoffs. How do you roll your eyes at that?

Once Cutler was drafted you knew it was only a matter of time before he supplanted Plummer. Much like with the Brady Quinn situation with the Browns. You don’t take a QB in the first round of the draft then pay him to hold a clipboard. That much I agree with and is obvious. Still, I think it’s kind of hilarious a “can’t miss” prospect and first-round talent like Cutler hasn’t even proved to be an upgrade over Plummer yet. Don’t tell that to Cutler though. I’m sure in his mind he’s already on Peyton Manning or Tom Brady’s level. At least, according to his agent he is.

the only area where you can quantitatively state denver was better in 2008 than 2005 was… the passing game. granted, a big chunk was likely due to a better defense and more effective running game… but to think cutler wouldn’t have won with that ’05 team……

sorry, dumping W/L on an individual is the ultimate copout; it’s lazy and ill-informed.

You act like no team with a great offense and bad defense has ever made the playoffs before. The fact of the matter is the Broncos were in position to make the playoffs the past two years before they wilted tremendously down the stretch of the season. Again, NO that’s not entirely on Cutler but he played poorly and this is football – a brutally, unfair business where the success and failure of a team starts and ends with the QB.

Could the defense have played better? Absolutely. Does a QB deserve blame if the defense is inadequate? No. Does a defense deserve blame if a QB plays poorly? Usually not – circumstances play a lot into and if you’re playing from behind it makes your playcalling very predictable. Only, I watched those games down the stretch. Cutler played like the crap, had a QB rating in the low 70’s. You can call me lazy, ill-informed or whatever all you want. I watched those games and know what I saw. That team gagged and Cutler was unimpressive.

you’re right, cutler hasn’t set the world on fire in december (he was well below average in their final three losses last year – but the defense also gave up 30, 30 and 52 points in those games) – but, in my defense: i’ve never argued he’s bart starr.

Well, I never argued Jake Plummer was Joe Montana either. Every single mention I have made on Plummer is strictly on a Plummer vs. Cutler basis.

sorry, man – where did the “commitment happy” phrase come from and why are you putting it in quotes as if to indicate it’s something i said? my opinion is that mcdaniels has seriously FUBAR’ed this entire situation and cutler is justified in being pissed about it. and one of the reasons he might be pissed is because he has roots in denver – he owns two homes there; his parents live there: isn't that a pretty legitimate reason (among many) to be upset?

"Commitment happy" is a term i've used to reference how you seem so convinced Cutler's intentions are genuine, that he wants nothing more than to be a Bronco, that he was searching from a commitment from McDaniels and the Broncos that he's their QB, and how he supposedly did not get that.

Basically, i'm weeding through all the BS from the Cutler camp about him wanting to be a Bronco, mocking his agent's claim that all they wanted was some sort of promise from the Broncos and all that nonsense. I've made it clear I think Cutler is manipulative and will do/say whatever it takes to get what he wants: out of Denver and more power.

oh yeah: at some point i compared this to a marriage; that mcdaniels was the cheater who thought buying flowers and a box of chocolates should solve everything.

Well, if that's the case at least McDaniels got it right that his "wife" is overrated, replaceable (with Cassel and possibly with Stafford if Detroit tries to become involved) and doesn't deliver when it counts the most. Of course, the "husband" in this case, McDaniels, didn't factor in his wife being a selfish, immature lunatic. :D

Ric

03-19-2009, 04:24 PM

Here you go again. Copout City, USA.
that’s not a copout; i’m not using it to disparage jake plummer but to temper your singing of jake plummer’s praises.

he's a QB that tends to be as good as the team around him. not a huge slam - this describes the majority of nfl QBs.

Again, the situation you speak of is a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office. This cannot be stressed enough because this is the point you are overlooking/exaggerating the most.
what?? flip back through the thread, baller4life315: you admitted to mad max that there’s no precedent for this... so who are the last... five seemingly content pro bowlers cutler's age and pedigree that have been knowingly shopped.

i don’t doubt a lot of machinations go on behind the scenes we never hear about, but… like bus cook said: when was the last time you heard peyton manning’s name floated in a rumor?

It was a rumor! Speculation! An idea! Something discussed that never happened.
semantics, perhaps – but it was not a rumor! it wasn’t speculative! legitimate trade talks took place; several teams exchanged offers; the broncos coach said timing was the only reason a deal wasn’t consummated…

that's pretty substantive.

If we had a dime for every time a situation like this came up in the world of sports we would both be millionaires. Please stop trying to give substance to something that never took place!
i’d like to see this list of 10M all-star level players that have been actively and publicly shopped – hell, i’ll settle for 10.

I’ll assume since you post here you’re an NBA fan too.
not particularly.

Think of what happened with Tyson Chandler: traded, fails physical, return to sender. If I went by your logic this would be like dropping the atomic bomb on the Hornets when in reality it was a business decision that, quite frankly, wasn’t that big of a deal. Both sides accepted the outcome and didn’t make a bigger issue out of it.
sorry; not dismissing it – i heard about it but i don’t really follow the NBA so i don’t really know any details. but i can tell you one big difference is that it happened in-season so they could move onto the next game – that’s a big difference.

but again – this situation is unique because mcdaniels is the brand new coach and he’s supposed to be spending this time building a relationship with his new QB; not alienating him. that’s the crux of my argument here - how can anyone not think mcdaniels has bungled this?

How would you classify this Cassel/Cutler uhh….”thing”?
i’ve spent the last 4 pages doing that, lol – but OK, here goes: a josh mcdaniels clucterf***. how’s that? :)

McDaniels is guilty only of initially denying those reports.
wait… i thought it was all just rumor and speculation – so what was he denying?

Everything else is on Cutler, how he reacted (er, overreacted) and the consequential actions from both sides as a result to how Cutler reacted. If that still sounds like a McDaniels-created mess then I am simply at a loss for words.
this is why i made the cheating analogy; mcdaniels slept around and you think cutler’s in the wrong for getting upset about it. sorry; i’m prone to side with the scorned…

I agree he earned his demotion despite the 7-4 record, but what he did from 2002-2005 is not irrelevant. Not at all. That’s calling having a good track record and proving you can lead winning a team to the playoffs. How do you roll your eyes at that?
fine; then his cardinal tenure is on the table, too – how’s his track record look now? even with denver, he still has a career losing record.

he’s a product of a good team – no shame in that; but i doubt canton took much interest.

Once Cutler was drafted you knew it was only a matter of time before he supplanted Plummer. Much like with the Brady Quinn situation with the Browns. You don’t take a QB in the first round of the draft then pay him to hold a clipboard. That much I agree with and is obvious. Still, I think it’s kind of hilarious a “can’t miss” prospect and first-round talent like Cutler hasn’t even proved to be an upgrade over Plummer yet.
cutler’s a better QB; plummer had a better team

Don’t tell that to Cutler though. I’m sure in his mind he’s already on Peyton Manning or Tom Brady’s level. At least, according to his agent he is.
boy, you REALLY dislike jay cutler – are you willing to acknowledge that’s playing SOME role in this?...

You act like no team with a great offense and bad defense has ever made the playoffs before.
historically bad offenses/defenses do not routinely make the playoffs – not without the other unit being an all-time great.

denver's defense was flat-out terrible last year. not kinda, sorta terrible - they were AWFUL.

Again, NO that’s not entirely on Cutler but he played poorly and this is football – a brutally, unfair business where the success and failure of a team starts and ends with the QB.
it’s the domain of knee-jerks and casual fans. blaming (or hailing) a QB is easy and requires zero thought. but it’s never that easy. i’ve never absolved jay cutler; i just find it perplexing you think having the conference's worst defense isn’t the big, big problem here…

Could the defense have played better? Absolutely.
talk about copouts…… they were the 29th-ranked defense in all of football! and you want to talk about jay cutler? so giving up 28 points/game doesn’t put any additional pressure on your QB? that’s not going to wear him down over the course of a season? especially when his leading rusher is peyton hills, or whoever it was? come on, man – i know you know better than that….

Does a QB deserve blame if the defense is inadequate? No. Does a defense deserve blame if a QB plays poorly? Usually not – circumstances play a lot into and if you’re playing from behind it makes your playcalling very predictable. Only, I watched those games down the stretch. Cutler played like the crap, had a QB rating in the low 70’s. You can call me lazy, ill-informed or whatever all you want. I watched those games and know what I saw. That team gagged and Cutler was unimpressive.
you’re arguing with yourself; i never hailed cutler or defended his performance in those games.

Well, I never argued Jake Plummer was Joe Montana either. Every single mention I have made on Plummer is strictly on a Plummer vs. Cutler basis.
…while conveniently ignoring the other 52 players on the roster.

"Commitment happy" is a term i've used to reference how you seem so convinced Cutler's intentions are genuine, that he wants nothing more than to be a Bronco, that he was searching from a commitment from McDaniels and the Broncos that he's their QB, and how he supposedly did not get that.
that was all speculative; i came to cutler’s defense initially because every indication was that mcdaniels had bungled the situation and that the rush to pillory cutler seemed WAY premature. it didn’t help that you obviously had an axe to grind with him, so it got personal pretty quickly.

as more has come out, i think cutler wanting out because of shanahan and bates leaving makes sense and i’ve never backed off of that. i don’t think he acted like a baby about it, though, and if – IF, IF, IF – he really was sincere about wanting to stay in denver, i think he had every right to be pissed at mcdaniels.

that’s really where i was. should he still be pissed? i don’t know all the details, but it seems a little silly, yes.

but i still drop the majority of this on mcdaniels. he was slow on cassel and now he’ll likely lose cutler – he’s undermined himself completely; just an epic screw-up that will likely haunt his (i'm going to guess brief) tenure in colorado.

baller4life315

03-19-2009, 05:33 PM

that’s not a copout; i’m not using it to disparage jake plummer but to temper your singing of jake plummer’s praises.

he's a QB that tends to be as good as the team around him. not a huge slam - this describes the majority of nfl QBs.

It absolutely is a copout. I'm comparing Plummer to Cutler in a quantitative and logical fashion yet i'm being mocked with your Terry Bradshow/Joe Montana references for doing so. It's a complete copout and it proves nothing.

what?? flip back through the thread, baller4life315: you admitted to mad max that there’s no precedent for this... so who are the last... five seemingly content pro bowlers cutler's age and pedigree that have been knowingly shopped.

i don’t doubt a lot of machinations go on behind the scenes we never hear about, but… like bus cook said: when was the last time you heard peyton manning’s name floated in a rumor?

Sure, there's not much of a precedent for this but you tell me what stating that proves. It proves nothing. Why? Because there's still a problem! It still happened. Attempting to apply this "never trade your 25-and-under franchise QB" conventional wisdom crap makes no sense when the deed has already been done. Denver thought they saw an opportunity to improve their team so, like any GM would have done, they explored the possibility and like most "possibilities" most of them never come to fruition. Condemning this considered move so vehemently is a tremendous disservice to Matt Cassel because by all accounts he's every bit as good as Cutler and can certainly challenge his trade value on the open market.

What's funny to me is you still continue to deny that this is typical, common scenario in sports. You act like trade rumors and speculation are a new movement. Spare me the "Name me somebody like Cutler has been shopped" talk because it happened. Cassel is on Cutler's level and it happened. There is no rule preventing it, therefore applying this precedent talk that you and MadMex have used to justify Cutler's actions and condemn the Broncos front office is completely irrelevant. It happened and it remains no different than any other trade rumor or scenario.

And did you just compare Jay Cutler to Peyton Manning?

semantics, perhaps – but it was not a rumor! it wasn’t speculative! legitimate trade talks took place; several teams exchanged offers; the broncos coach said timing was the only reason a deal wasn’t consummated…

that's pretty substantive.

If it didn't happen, no it's not. I'm not trying to debate semantics here but you're in denial if you think this is any different than routine trade talk. If the deal was submitted for league approval and rejected, if a player fails a physical and gets sent back, if the deal is in place yet somebody exercises a no-trade-clause, or anything like this. These are all scenarios that are 10x more substantive than this Cassel/Cutler thing. It was an idea that was discussed, dismissed and then ultimately leaked. Cutler's reaction is what made the story what it is.

i’d like to see this list of 10M all-star level players that have been actively and publicly shopped – hell, i’ll settle for 10.

Not that Cutler makes $10M but this is a common occurrence in baseball. Granted, baseball players get paid a ton so you could destroy a list like that with the Manny Ramirez's, A-Rod's and guys like that of the world. You could easily get 10 there alone. With hockey it's different considering the best players in hockey make like $5M a year. Basketball, it's fairly common especially given the economic climate the way it is: Shaq, Nash, Vince Carter, etc all those type of players are big named, All-Star level players meeting your salary and availability requirements. Not to mention the wave of 2010 panic moves we'll see between this summer and February 2010. Much like the NHL, the average NFL player earns about 1/3 of what an NBA player earns. QB's are routinely the highest paid in the NFL and given that not many QB's are being discussed in trade rumors, this talk is fairly pointless.

sorry; not dismissing it – i heard about it but i don’t really follow the NBA so i don’t really know any details. but i can tell you one big difference is that it happened in-season so they could move onto the next game – that’s a big difference.

You don't really need to follow the NBA to get the simplified version: Team A trades with Team B, Team B doesn't like results of Player X's physical so Player X gets returned to Team A. If I went by your reasoning this would be like dropping the atomic bomb.

wait… i thought it was all just rumor and speculation – so what was he denying?

It was just a rumor and speculation. I never said otherwise.

this is why i made the cheating analogy; mcdaniels slept around and you think cutler’s in the wrong for getting upset about it. sorry; i’m prone to side with the scorned…

Scorned? Really? Let's take a minute and pause on that word. Scorned: "Contempt or disdain felt toward a person or object considered despicable or unworthy."

You want to talk about the mother of all hyperbole? You just won the award. Remember: hearing your name in a trade rumor is an automatic indictment. It's an attempt to rid yourself of somebody. It's a practice that almost never takes place in sports. Lesson learned!

cutler’s a better QB; plummer had a better team

Cutler probably is a better QB but he hasn't shown it yet. I have a feeling he will, but then again, if he gets traded to the Lions and wins 15 games over the course of the next 4-5 years we'll still be in the same position we're in right now: me arguing he's overrated, you arguing his team sucks and both of us rolling are eyes at each other.

it’s the domain of knee-jerks and casual fans. blaming (or hailing) a QB is easy and requires zero thought. but it’s never that easy. i’ve never absolved jay cutler; i just find it perplexing you think having the conference's worst defense isn’t the big, big problem here…

talk about copouts…… they were the 29th-ranked defense in all of football! and you want to talk about jay cutler? so giving up 28 points/game doesn’t put any additional pressure on your QB? that’s not going to wear him down over the course of a season? especially when his leading rusher is peyton hills, or whoever it was? come on, man – i know you know better than that….

Of course having a bad defense is a big problem but the point is teams have still made the playoffs with a bad defense and good offense. Hell, look at the 2008 Arizona Cardinals if you need an example. The point is even despite the Broncos' dreadful defense they were still in position to make the playoffs but gagged severely down the stretch.

I realize the whole crux of your argument is Cutler is blame free in any situation in life but even you must acknowledge the fact that he contributed to the Broncos' late season demises the past two seasons. No, it's not all on him but -again- I watched those games and know what I saw. He played poorly too just like the rest of his teammates. He's a good player but he is not blame free.

that was all speculative; i came to cutler’s defense initially because every indication was that mcdaniels had bungled the situation and that the rush to pillory cutler seemed WAY premature. it didn’t help that you obviously had an axe to grind with him, so it got personal pretty quickly.

as more has come out, i think cutler wanting out because of shanahan and bates leaving makes sense and i’ve never backed off of that. i don’t think he acted like a baby about it, though, and if – IF, IF, IF – he really was sincere about wanting to stay in denver, i think he had every right to be pissed at mcdaniels.

that’s really where i was. should he still be pissed? i don’t know all the details, but it seems a little silly, yes.

but i still drop the majority of this on mcdaniels. he was slow on cassel and now he’ll likely lose cutler – he’s undermined himself completely; just an epic screw-up that will likely haunt his (i'm going to guess brief) tenure in colorado.

Understood that we're clearly on two different sides of the playing field here. Personally, I think your evidence (or lack thereof) for shifting the majority of blame on McDaniels is weak. Not that my argument is perfect either: trying to dissect Cutler's actions is pure speculation on my part. I guess we could go back-and-forth for days on this. I do apologize earlier for questioning your reading comprehension -- that was out of line.

plutoblue11

03-19-2009, 05:54 PM

These are all copouts. Using your logic you're only successful if you win a Super Bowl. Plus, you just got done telling me how comparing W/L records is ridiculous yet you had no problem pointing out Plummer's record once he got to the playoffs. You can spin that however you want. I’m clearly not “reincarnating” Plummer as anybody – just pointing out how you’re “Mr. Empathy”. You’re the guy making the argument that Cutler’s actions are excusable merely because somebody hurt his feelings. What do you think was going through Plummer’s mind after the Broncos drafted the great, Jay Cutler? Three playoff appearances, a game away from the Super Bowl, winning record as a starter – then you draft a guy to essentially replace him at some point. Hmmmmmm…….regardless of whether or not it was a smart decision (it was) and regardless of how you’ll refuse to see the connection (you won’t), this isn’t apples and oranges. Plummer was more deserving of the “commitment” you speak of yet didn’t get it, BUT STOP THE PRESS whenever Jay Cutler loses a bunch of games then hears his name in a trade rumor. Give me a break.

Bottom line: Plummer won in Denver, Cutler hasn't. You can kid yourself into thinking those Denver teams weren't talented enough to be playoff contenders. You can kid yourself into thinking they weren't pre-season playoff teams according to a number of analysts. You can kid yourself into thinking late season collapses weren’t the real reason they continue to miss the playoffs. That’s fine – whatever helps your case of making Cutler look completely blameless.

1. Cutler has only been in the league 3 years and a full starter for about 2 and quarter. And lead his team to the 2nd ranked offense in the league without any great RBs. The Broncos won 8 games with a defense giving up over 28 points a game. That's usually good reflection of the offense with anyone slightly lesser talented at QB or a drop off in talent on offense, the Broncos could've easily fell to 4 or 5 wins. In other words, Cutler (and the offense) carried this team.

Also, I think you have selective memory about Plummer's performances. He was an above-average QB at his very best and didn't have any kind of memorable playoff performance. He only threw for 20+ touchdowns once in his career and had 4 seasons throwing 20+ ints with an equal amount of career touchdowns and interception (161). The other QBs that have had that many seasons of 20+ interceptions are the likes of Favre, Marino, Tesetaverde, Blanda, Bradshaw, Lamonica, and few others.

Only thing is most of those players were in the league for very long time and had way more passing touchdowns than Plummer. His career completion percentages were much closer to Michael Vick's (lacking the running ability, though) than they were to the Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's.

Cutler's first 3 years in the season blow away Plummer's 3 first years in Arizona (and his 3 best years in career).

The only reason Jake ever ended up in playoff was because some of the teams he was on were very talented with great head coach. He never played high enough to get any of those Broncos team's to another level. You don't remember the talking heads of ESPN/Fox Sports, constantly criticizing Plummer for never being a big game player or turning the ball over too much. It was usually the defense that played well enough for his team to win. Jake was the type of QB who either needed his defense to be successful or play the ineffectual game-manager with a few hints of athletic ability to be successful. It was the Broncos top 10 defense that helped them get to the playoffs with their consistent "running" game.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/

Cutler is the very opposite, he has a big time arm and can make any throw on the field in very tight places. Jay also can move the ball up the field really well and is a gamebreaker. Who doesn't quite turn the ball over as much. He's done far more in two an half season than Plummer has done for most of his career

Denver ended up right where most analyst had them at 8 to 9 wins with a possible playoff appearance. San Diego was the front runner in the pre-season, the only reason Denver got the playoff noise was because of their unexpected 4-0 start.

Also, McDaniels did try to trade for Cassel, which in essence meant Cutler was headed out of town. Which means the new coach actually considered "dumping the franchise QB, for a more expensive, probably lesser talent QB."

BMoney

03-19-2009, 08:42 PM

Well, be more realistic, though. Because I don't believe Denver would ever accept Schaub straight up for Cutler. I think they would risk Cutler threatening to sit on the bench before doing that. So how many and what round draft picks would you be willing to include with Schaub to make the deal work?

I think you are right. They wouldn't accept a straight up trade. I would throw in a third round pick this year and a number 2 next year. They can probably do better than that, but the Broncos will want to get a quarterback and the usual suspects (Jets, Vikings, Bears, Lions, Bucs) don't have one to offer. The tricky thing for the Texans is that this could blow up in their face and they would be in the same boat as the Broncos with an unhappy qb. That's why I think they will sit this opportunity out.

Ric

03-19-2009, 10:50 PM

I'm comparing Plummer to Cutler in a quantitative and logical fashion yet i'm being mocked with your Terry Bradshow/Joe Montana references for doing so.
sorry, man - comparing plummer to cutler and leaving out their 52 teammates is not quantitative or logical. it's lazy and meaningless - ESPECIALLY if the only metric you're going to use is W/L.

Sure, there's not much of a precedent for this but you tell me what stating that proves. It proves nothing.
well, it proves you were wrong a post ago when you said, "Again, the situation you speak of is a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office. This cannot be stressed enough because this is the point you are overlooking/exaggerating the most."

but yeah - other than that... (and btw, yes - that was fun)

Condemning this considered move so vehemently is a tremendous disservice to Matt Cassel because by all accounts he's every bit as good as Cutler and can certainly challenge his trade value on the open market.
but it's not a disservice to jay cutler?.... and please - post one account that states matt cassel is every bit as good as jay cutler.

What's funny to me is you still continue to deny that this is typical, common scenario in sports. You act like trade rumors and speculation are a new movement.
i can't believe i'm having to ask this but are you sure you understand the concept of a rumor? because you keep applying it to this situation... AND THERE'S NO RUMOR! josh mcdaniels not only admitted he engaged in trade talks with several teams - he explicitly stated that he would have MADE the trade had the timing been better.

THAT IS NOT A RUMOR! they wanted to and tried to trade jay cutler. that is irrefutable. andnotamotherflippinrumor.

Spare me the "Name me somebody like Cutler has been shopped" talk because it happened.
why would i spare you that when you keep telling me it's "a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office"?

It happened and it remains no different than any other trade rumor or scenario.
argh! if "it happened" it is not a "rumor."

And did you just compare Jay Cutler to Peyton Manning?
it was intended to be "peyton manning" - ya know, more representative of the league's better QBs. it wasn't specifically *peyton manning*.

I'm not trying to debate semantics here but you're in denial if you think this is any different than routine trade talk.
what constitutes "routine trade talks" in your world? do you think nfls GMs treat it like the world's greatest fantasy league?

there's a difference between asking about availability and/or spitballing ideas and putting offers on the table that you later deem failed only because your were late to the dance.

QB's are routinely the highest paid in the NFL and given that not many QB's are being discussed in trade rumors, this talk is fairly pointless.
i don't know, man - someone once told me "the situation you speak of is a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office. This cannot be stressed enough".....

Team A trades with Team B, Team B doesn't like results of Player X's physical so Player X gets returned to Team A. If I went by your reasoning this would be like dropping the atomic bomb.
i said he was justified in being pissed off - how is that an "atomic bomb"?

Scorned? Really? Let's take a minute and pause on that word. Scorned: "Contempt or disdain felt toward a person or object considered despicable or unworthy."

You want to talk about the mother of all hyperbole?
relax, dude - i was trying to stay in the admittedly hokey (though not entirely inappropriate) analogy. i don't think anyone's actually been scorned.

but let me ask you something - you duck and dodge a point i've made repeatedly: why are you letting josh mcdaniels off the hook? do you think trying to trade your brand new franchise QB before you've even practiced together is an acceptable way to build a relationship?

that's what's unfathomable to me. i can see the "cutler is acting like a diva" angle - though i disagree with it. but even if you took the anti-cutler stance as far as you have - i can't imagine handing mcdaniels a pass.

at the VERY least, it was dumb to think engaging in trade talks involving your 25-year pro bowl QB wouldn't leak and cause a problem. at worst, it may end up being career suicide.

Of course having a bad defense is a big problem but the point is teams have still made the playoffs with a bad defense and good offense. Hell, look at the 2008 Arizona Cardinals if you need an example.
as bad as they were, the cardinal defense still finished 10 spots ahead of the denver broncos' defense last year. TEN! we're not talking about a slightly-below average defense here, baller - it was a TERRIBLE defense.

sure; there're always exceptions. but i think hanging 2008 on cutler when he had an absolutely terrible defense and the least threatening running game the team has fielded in a very long time is just... it's unfathomable to me. did he play poorly down the stretch? sure. but are they even in a position to blow the division if he's not carrying the team earlier in the year?...

i mean... you're an obviously smart guy - come on, man....

I realize the whole crux of your argument is Cutler is blame free in any situation in life
let me stop you right there: really?.... this is what we're doing now? i've stated jay cutler is blame free in any situation?

...

do you realize that in the specific quote you're responding to here, i stated, "i’ve never absolved jay cutler"?...

... ...

further, do you realize you just awarded me the mother of all hyperbole?

but even you must acknowledge the fact that he contributed to the Broncos' late season demises the past two seasons.
pop quiz time, baller...

QUESTION #1:
at 2:03pm today, who said the following?: you’re right, cutler hasn’t set the world on fire in december (he was well below average in their final three losses last year – but the defense also gave up 30, 30 and 52 points in those games) – but, in my defense: i’ve never argued he’s bart starr.
a. me
b. me
c. i don't know; maybe i should i stop calling out other posters' reading comprehension
d. all of the above

QUESTION #2:
at 4:24pm today, who said the following?: you’re arguing with yourself; i never hailed cutler or defended his performance in those games.
a. me
b. me
c. i don't know; maybe i should i stop calling out other posters' reading comprehension
d. all of the above

I do apologize earlier for questioning your reading comprehension -- that was out of line.
i would hope so....

Wakko67

03-19-2009, 10:58 PM

Wow, this thread is still going?

I wouldn't want to give anything up for Cutler. I still believe in Schaub. Dud better come through, I have a Texans shirt with his name on it!

justtxyank

03-20-2009, 06:53 AM

Ric is having too much fun.

Bag0b0y

03-20-2009, 08:10 AM

Ric is having too much fun.

wow, he actually made a remark for every sentence?!?

Rocket River

03-20-2009, 03:29 PM

. . . as long as he does not wear #8 . . . SIGN HIM UP!

On the real . . he would definately be an Upgrade at the QB position
and a might less tread on the tires

Rocket River

Mr. Clutch

03-20-2009, 03:47 PM

. . . as long as he does not wear #8 . . . SIGN HIM UP!

On the real . . he would definately be an Upgrade at the QB position
and a might less tread on the tires

Rocket River

An upgrade like your beloved Sage Rosenfels?

Wakko67

03-20-2009, 04:49 PM

An upgrade like your beloved Sage Rosenfels?

Ouch. Ha!

Shroopy2

03-20-2009, 08:33 PM

For FUN, contract comparison on this hypothetical not gonna happen situation

Schaub
six-year, $48 million contract $7 million in guarantees
Texans are "only" obligated to pay Schaub a total of $19.95 million through next season if they choose not to exercise the OPTION to extend Schaub's contract three more years from 2010-'12.

Cutler
six year, $47.86 million contract $11 million of that is guaranteed and 45 percent of the value is in performance incentives.
CUTLER DEAL FULL OF FLUFF

A league source who has eyeballed the relevant provisions of the contract signed by Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler, the eleventh overall pick in the 2006 draft, has opined that the reported maximum value of $48 million over six years is an exaggeration, and that the true maximum value of the deal is $38 million.

The source also tells us that the reported maximum value of the deal includes some incentives that, as a practical matter, will be hard to obtain, such as an annual incentive based on winning the Super Bowl and an annual incentive triggered by Cutler finishing in the top five in passer rating.

We're also told that $14 million of the contract is buried in the sixth year, via a $4 million roster bonus and incentives based on minimum playing time. But none of the money is guaranteed, so if Cutler isn't a star by then the team can merely cut him loose. Alternatively, if Cutler ends up being a premier player in the NFL, the $14 million salary by 2011 likely will be less than the value of the franchise tag for quarterbacks.

http://archive.profootballtalk.com/7-16-06through7-31-06.htm
To me a tiny part of Cutler's frustration is potentially losing out on the incentives from not being "the guy". If it were me, I'd probably be fussy and risk tarnishing my good image, too.

They have the same 6 year $48 mil MAX amount. Cutler gets $11 mil guaranteed, Shaub $7 mil. Dont know if they've already gotten their guaranteed money. These contracts in general tend to be full of fluff, so its hard to tell their base rates and who's cheaper. Looks to be Cutler if his contract indeed is incentives he probably wont earn.

Rocket River

03-20-2009, 10:02 PM

An upgrade like your beloved Sage Rosenfels?

YES!

and upgrade from SAGE [which was an upgrade fro Schuab *grin*]

Rocket River

Republic

03-21-2009, 03:47 AM

CometsWin

03-21-2009, 08:06 AM

Further proof that Ric and the others thinking it's a cheaper deal are idiots.

Did you even read this part? Cutler's deal IS cheaper.

CUTLER DEAL FULL OF FLUFF

A league source who has eyeballed the relevant provisions of the contract signed by Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler, the eleventh overall pick in the 2006 draft, has opined that the reported maximum value of $48 million over six years is an exaggeration, and that the true maximum value of the deal is $38 million.

You're really off to a bad start here dude.

Mr. Clutch

03-21-2009, 09:45 AM

Its funny that people are arguing about something that isn't even being considered by either team.

Republic

03-21-2009, 12:03 PM

Its funny that people are arguing about something that isn't even being considered by either team.

Not to mention the fact it's largely a lateral talent move. Something only fanboys would argue about to begin with. Cutler is not an upgrade to Schaub. Period. At least, in my opinion, in a SIGNIFICANT sense.

He might save 10 million? Who cares? To me, that is NOT significant money. 10 million dollars spent on another player does not make the Texans a Super Bowl Champ.

I wonder if all the "Sage should be our QB" crybabies have finally shut up on the Texans message board. I'll go read over there sometime when I can stand it again. On the Rockets board, the 2nd coming is Cutler. I'll go see who it is with the Texans fanboys and compare the differences. I'm betting neither board knows what the hell they're talking about.

At least we have determined in this thread that leadership qualities are not important out of a QB. Thank you Ric. Insight like that cannot be bought.

justtxyank

03-21-2009, 03:43 PM

Seriously. Just send an email to Ryan17Wagner and go start up a new message board for the two of you and those like you. I'm sure it will have a devout following.

CometsWin

03-21-2009, 09:07 PM

Not to mention the fact it's largely a lateral talent move. Something only fanboys would argue about to begin with. Cutler is not an upgrade to Schaub. Period. At least, in my opinion, in a SIGNIFICANT sense.

He might save 10 million? Who cares? To me, that is NOT significant money. 10 million dollars spent on another player does not make the Texans a Super Bowl Champ.

I wonder if all the "Sage should be our QB" crybabies have finally shut up on the Texans message board. I'll go read over there sometime when I can stand it again. On the Rockets board, the 2nd coming is Cutler. I'll go see who it is with the Texans fanboys and compare the differences. I'm betting neither board knows what the hell they're talking about.

At least we have determined in this thread that leadership qualities are not important out of a QB. Thank you Ric. Insight like that cannot be bought.

Cutler is an upgrade to Schaub on several levels. You're just ignoring it all.

You lambasted a poster for correctly pointing out that Cutler was cheaper and now all of a sudden you don't care? Make up your mind. I would venture to say most GM's in a salary cap league would consider a $10 million savings to be pretty SIGNIFICANT.

If you want to rip Ric, rip him for defending the Texans decision to take Chester Pitts over Clinton Portis way back when because he's right about Cutler and time will bear him out.

Republic

03-21-2009, 11:21 PM

Cutler is an upgrade to Schaub on several levels. You're just ignoring it all.

No, I just don't agree.

You lambasted a poster for correctly pointing out that Cutler was cheaper and now all of a sudden you don't care? Make up your mind.

My mind is made up and continues to be unchanged. I don't consider him to be significantly cheaper. Certainly not to the degree it warrants this trade.

I would venture to say most GM's in a salary cap league would consider a $10 million savings to be pretty SIGNIFICANT.

I'd agree with that too. However, on the Texans, in the context of this being a Super Bowl Champion team, it's NOT significant.

If you want to rip Ric, rip him for defending the Texans decision to take Chester Pitts over Clinton Portis way back when because he's right about Cutler and time will bear him out.

Actually, while that does sound appealing. I happen to agree with Pitts over Portis. Fact is, as I recall (and I may be wrong) but we thought we could get Jonathan Wells in a lower round. He was seen by many on this side to be at least as serviceable as Portis (at the time and in our scheme of things).

I might be wrong but I recall wondering what the hell was going on when we took Fred Weary ahead of Wells. I was thinking we were getting too far down in the draft not to take a RB, especially since we had already lost the shot at Portis and we had already drafted Pitts.

I dunno, I just remember the o-line being something more to worry about than our RB situation. Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on things, 99.9% of us would draft Portis instead of Pitts.

baller4life315

03-22-2009, 03:57 AM

sorry, man - comparing plummer to cutler and leaving out their 52 teammates is not quantitative or logical. it's lazy and meaningless - ESPECIALLY if the only metric you're going to use is W/L.

Well, thanks for acknowledging the fact that I actually have been comparing Plummer to Cutler all along. So much for your Terry Bradshaw/Joe Montana exaggerations making any sense. Not that I needed confirmation of that though.

well, it proves you were wrong a post ago when you said, "Again, the situation you speak of is a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office. This cannot be stressed enough because this is the point you are overlooking/exaggerating the most."

but yeah - other than that... (and btw, yes - that was fun)

By fun, do you mean you entertaining me with yet another meaningless copout? This is precisely what you just did here. I want you to explain to me what using this precedent talk proves. Does it magically make this situation make sense? Does it make it all just go away? No, of course it doesn’t.

There isn’t much of a precedent for this particular type of situation, however Cassel absolutely is on Cutler’s level in terms of trade value –AND- consequently, this is a “typical trade scenario” regardless of which position we’re discussing. “Typical” meaning equal value, equal talent which is the basis for ANY trade talk regardless of the circumstances. That is the basis for any trade talks, is it not? If it’s on the table it’s a deal both sides will consider! Applying this precedent logic becomes irrelevant.

Let’s pretend for a second an NBA GM floated around the idea of trading Dwayne Wade for Kobe Bryant. Is there much of a precedent for that caliber of a move? No. Is there equal value present thus making it worthy of consideration? Absolutely! Stating that a move like that almost never happens, and using that as the basis for any half-assed argument against it, really proves nothing when the dust settles.

but it's not a disservice to jay cutler?.... and please - post one account that states matt cassel is every bit as good as jay cutler.

Well, we could start with the opinion of Josh McDaniels: winner of three Super Bowls. Or we could continue with Pat Bowlen: owner presiding over a team that won two Super Bowls. Either way I’m sure their ability to judge talent is nowhere near as good as your’s.

Please don’t insult everybody's intelligence by acting like Cassel isn’t in Cutler’s league. Don’t allow yourself to look that biased, stubborn and naïve. I realize your opinion of Cutler is pretty high but to scoff at Cassel like this is simply not fair or accurate.

i can't believe i'm having to ask this but are you sure you understand the concept of a rumor? because you keep applying it to this situation... AND THERE'S NO RUMOR! josh mcdaniels not only admitted he engaged in trade talks with several teams - he explicitly stated that he would have MADE the trade had the timing been better.

THAT IS NOT A RUMOR! they wanted to and tried to trade jay cutler. that is irrefutable. andnotamotherflippinrumor.

Rumor = speculation, an idea, whispers, whatever. More likely than not these instances never materialize which is precisely the case in this matter. At the end of the day that’s all this comes down to whether you’ll admit that or not. I provided you with three examples of scenarios that are much more substantive than this whole Cassel/Cutler thing which you continue to blow out of proportion in terms of what actually happened and what it means.

It’s been confirmed TAMPA BAY initiated these trade talks:
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_11809351
It may be important to note, Tampa Bay initiated the deal. And they weren't the only team that inquired about acquiring Cutler.

If you’re Denver, with a new head coach with a strong history with Cassel, really…you tell me what the harm is in listening especially if you’re not even the team initiating these trade talks in the first place. This is an important point since any GM would be unwise to simply not answer a phone call because the caller is presumably phoning to inquire about a player perceived to be untouchable. On what planet would it be wise to not consider your options? Unfortunately for Denver’s case, you don’t really count on these type of proposals getting leaked. You even acknowledged yourself that a great deal of trade discussions and roster ideas never get leaked to the media. Is Denver simply supposed to ignore a phone call on the off-chance their discussion might get leaked –AND- their franchise QB will overreact to this magnitude? C’mon now….I know you’re a smart guy but let’s wake up here.

why would i spare you that when you keep telling me it's "a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office"?

I noticed you backed off whenever you challenged me to name you a list of $10M All-Star level players discussed in trade talks. Not that Cutler even makes $10M anyways, still it’s funny that this practice seems to be a lot more common than you realized. Yeah, you’re welcome.

argh! if "it happened" it is not a "rumor."

“It happened” clearly meaning the trade discussions which [unfortunately for Denver’s sake] were leaked. Again…yet another cheap, lazy statement that proves nothing.

[quote]it was intended to be "peyton manning" - ya know, more representative of the league's better QBs. it wasn't specifically *peyton manning*.[/quote]

So Cutler is on Peyton Manning’s level? That’s your stance?

[quote]i don't know, man - someone once told me [i]"the situation you speak of is a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office. This cannot be stressed enough"[/i].....[/quote]

Again, instead of trying to spin whatever I say to create copout #212 of this thread, perhaps you should read the entire message and consider the context?

Do I need to break this down for you? You have to disregard this whole “precedence” notion. If trade talks take place involving equal talent, equal value and makes sense for both teams it’s going to be considered no matter what the circumstance. Matt Cassel’s and Jay Cutler’s generally aren’t traded each offseason – okay, we’ve established that. That doesn’t mean a situation couldn’t arise where it makes sense for both parties to consider doing so, does it? It just so happens that this one of those rare offseasons where that talk was apparently considered feasible. Applying this precedence and conventional wisdom crap doesn’t help this make any more sense.

If the Patriots discussed trading Brady for Peyton Manning, how would this move be perceived? Odd? Yes. Stupid? Debatable. Worth considering due to the sheer fact that we’re talking two near equal players, with equal value and a move that could work for both sides? Abso-freaking-lutely. Enter: this Cassel/Cutler drama-fest. Same point, different circumstances. The fact that this type of proposed move is unusual or rare doesn’t make it any less legitimate if both sides did, indeed, decide to execute the deal.

[quote]i said he was justified in being pissed off - how is that an "atomic bomb"? [/quote]

LOL – You’re the one comparing this scenario to a man cheating on his wife, to a scornful attempt to RID yourself of somebody, and that nonsense. In other words: overreacting. The Tyson Chandler rescinded trade was 10x more substantive than this isolated Cassel/Cutler incident ever was yet with your reasoning you would seemingly imply these two cases are on the same level. They are clearly not.

[Note: Here is where you chime in sniping on my usage of the word “incident” then ask some half-assed “But I thought you said it was only a rumor and not an incident?” question.]

[quote]relax, dude - i was trying to stay in the admittedly hokey (though not entirely inappropriate) analogy. i don't think anyone's actually been scorned.

but let me ask you something - you duck and dodge a point i've made repeatedly: why are you letting josh mcdaniels off the hook? do you think trying to trade your brand new franchise QB before you've even practiced together is an acceptable way to build a relationship?

that's what's unfathomable to me. i can see the "cutler is acting like a diva" angle - though i disagree with it. but even if you took the anti-cutler stance as far as you have - i can't imagine handing mcdaniels a pass.

at the VERY least, it was dumb to think engaging in trade talks involving your 25-year pro bowl QB wouldn't leak and cause a problem. at worst, it may end up being career suicide.[/quote]

I have said repeatedly that McDaniels was in the wrong for denying these reports once they first leaked. That’s not letting him off the hook and suggesting that I did so is not accurate. As for the relationship building aspect, it’s March. If you’re going to make a ball-sy move like that this is the time to do it before the mandatory workouts and what not start. If a Cutler/Cassell type trade was bound to happen, if you were Cutler would you rather see it happen the first week of a March when you’re vacationing or laying on a couch at home in Tennessee or rather in April or May when you’re practicing/seeing your teammates all the time? You be the judge of that.

You can criticize McDaniels’ reasoning all you want. As I have stated before, your adamant dismissal of this idea is a tremendous insult to Cassel. Keep throwing these cheap “25-year Pro Bowl QB” blurbs out there – Cassel is 26-years-old, put up Pro Bowl caliber numbers and is fresh off of a season where he successfully stepped in for the best player in the football and performed admirably. Feel free to keep pretending like Cassel isn’t on Cutler’s level though.

[QUOTE]sure; there're always exceptions. but i think hanging 2008 on cutler when he had an absolutely terrible defense and the least threatening running game the team has fielded in a very long time is just... it's unfathomable to me. did he play poorly down the stretch? sure. but are they even in a position to blow the division if he's not carrying the team earlier in the year?...

i mean... you're an obviously smart guy - come on, man....[/quote]

I think I said it better:
[I]The fact of the matter is the Broncos were in position to make the playoffs the past two years before they wilted tremendously down the stretch of the season. Again, NO that’s not entirely on Cutler but he played poorly and this is football – a brutally, unfair business where the success and failure of a team starts and ends with the QB.

Could the defense have played better? Absolutely. Does a QB deserve blame if the defense is inadequate? No. Does a defense deserve blame if a QB plays poorly? Usually not – circumstances play a lot into and if you’re playing from behind it makes your playcalling very predictable. Only, I watched those games down the stretch. Cutler played like the crap, had a QB rating in the low 70’s. You can call me lazy, ill-informed or whatever all you want. I watched those games and know what I saw. That team gagged and Cutler was unimpressive. [/I]

At least we can agree on something: BAD defense and Cutler played poorly down the stretch.

[quote]let me stop you right there: really?.... this is what we're doing now? i've stated jay cutler is blame free in any situation?

...

do you realize that in the specific quote you're responding to here, i stated, "i’ve never absolved jay cutler"?...

... ...

further, do you realize you just awarded me the mother of all hyperbole?[/quote]

You have yet to directly assess blame to Cutler for anything outside of his poor play on the field. ANYTHING! And you have the nerve to accuse me of ducking and dodging something. Yes, you won the Hyperbole Award with flying colors.

Look, this is getting tedious. This has gone way beyond an intelligent sports conversation and developed more into a copout/diversion/spinning contest that, quite frankly, is becoming pretty boring and repetitive. I understand your points and I definitely respect your opinion, I just think we’re so far off on different sides of the fence that we’re never going to reach a common ground here. Consequently, I’m done doing the respond-to-every-sentence thing. You can feel free to grill me as bad as you want but I’m only going to directly respond if we’re done playing this word-spinning-game and if it’s a point we haven’t already beaten to death 30 times already.

baller4life315

03-22-2009, 04:08 AM

Plutoblue11,

I’m not ignoring Cutler’s talent and I’m not trying to turn this into a ‘Plummer Pride Parade’. I’ve made my points that I think: 1) Cutler is overrated, mistake-prone and unreliable from Weeks 12-17, 2) Cutler has wanted out of Denver for quite some time dating back to the Shanahan firing and is fully prepared to use this trade scenario to any lengths necessary, 3) He’s power-hungry and upset his status as a franchise QB doesn’t involve any say or pull within the front office and 4) Even though nobody points it out Plummer has been a more successful QB than Cutler. The last point I only brought out to mock Ric’s whole empathy approach in defending Cutler’s childish response to this whole debacle. How it’s so ironically hilarious that after being a successful starter with the Broncos, they [wisely] drafted Cutler to wait in the wings and just assumed since Plummer is a mature, professional athlete that he would embrace the move [which he did]. Plummer set a great example by not acting like a diva in a similar role-questioning scenario and Cutler hasn’t. That’s the point.

Ric is right that it’s unfair to level ALL criticism at Cutler for the Broncos’ annual demise. I do, however, think it’s only fair to point out Cutler’s less-than-stellar play down the stretch while the team is in position to secure a playoff spot. Sure, the defense playing AWFUL last year was a much bigger problem than Cutler’s low-70’s QB-ratings but it’s only fair to point that out too. It’s simply unfair to assess blame otherwise.

I do not, for one second, believe Plummer is a better QB or player than Cutler. Again, I just think it’s funny when you consider how arrogantly Cutler portrays himself that he hasn’t even bested his predecessor yet in the W/L column. Of course, if you replaced Plummer with Cutler on those balanced, playoff Broncos teams I have no doubt they would be just as good, and likely better. Still….we’ll never know and if a team like the Lions makes a play for Cutler on draft day and he wins 15 games over the next 3-4 years it’s going to be hard to know just how good Cutler REALLY is. The sporting world only has a small tolerance for the [pre-Boston] Kevin Garnett’s of the world that are routinely considered to be one of the finest talents/players players in the game that never seem to be on a good enough teams. That act gets old after a while. What I don’t get is if Cutler is as focused on winning and being a Bronco like he initially claimed, he should just suck it up and prove them wrong for even considering this deal in the first place. Of course, that involves placing the ego aside and moving forward. Something Cutler doesn’t appear to be prepared to do as long as he’s still a Bronco.

Ric

03-24-2009, 09:37 AM

If you want to rip Ric, rip him for defending the Texans decision to take Chester Pitts over Clinton Portis way back when because he's right about Cutler and time will bear him out.
?????????????????

i don't believe i've ever done this, other than, perhaps, speaking generically to the benefits of building around OL rather than RBs, especially when you're an expansion team. but other than that............. i'm at a loss???? help me out.

mateo

03-24-2009, 09:45 AM

Hey that Vince Young sure was a bust wasnt he?

Ric

03-24-2009, 10:05 AM

Further proof that Ric and the others thinking it's a cheaper deal are idiots.
over the next two years, cutler is due $6.7M. not per year - total. over the same time frame, schaub is due $18.1M (per keith's usually accurate salary cap projections). not sure beyond 2010 with schaub but cutler is due a roster bonus of $12M in 2011. but his base salary is low - he'll cost just $13.9M against the cap in the final year of his deal (less, i believe than cassel this year - at least, it's less than cassel's franchise #, which was north of $14M, iirc).

meaning, 3 years of (the younger) cutler is going to cost you $20.6M while 2 years of schaub is going to cost you $18.1M.

man, am i ever an idiot.....

thelasik

03-31-2009, 10:50 PM

This whole saga has been beyond crazy. Cutler is on his way out..

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-bowlencutler033109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Fed-up Broncos ready to trade Cutler

After numerous failed attempts to open a line of communication in recent days, the Denver Broncos have decided to pursue trading disgruntled quarterback Jay Cutler.

In a statement to Yahoo! Sports and several other media outlets, Broncos owner Pat Bowlen said that the team came to the decision after both he and head coach Josh McDaniels tried unsuccessfully to reach Cutler.

“Numerous attempts to contact Jay Cutler in the last 10 days, both by head coach Josh McDaniels and myself, have been unsuccessful,” Bowlen said. “A conversation with his agent [Bus Cook] earlier [Tuesday] clearly communicated and confirmed to us that Jay no longer has any desire to play for the Denver Broncos. We will begin discussions with other teams in an effort to accommodate his request to be traded.”

Several league personnel sources confirmed to Yahoo! Sports that at least six teams are expected to be seriously involved in trade talks: the New York Jets, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions, San Francisco 49ers and Cleveland Browns. The Jacksonville Jaguars have also shown interest, while the Minnesota Vikings actually pulled the plug on trade negotiations for Cutler back in February.

Other news outlets, such as Profootballtalk.com, have indicated that Washington has also expressed interest in Cutler even though the Redskins have Jason Campbell as their starter. The Redskins, who have the No. 13 overall pick in the draft, also worked out USC quarterback Mark Sanchez last week, two league sources said. Owner Dan Snyder, coach Jim Zorn and vice president of football operations Vinny Cerrato was part of the group that went to see Sanchez and Trojans linebacker Brian Cushing, although one source said the group was more focused on Sanchez.

Detroit, which has the No. 1 overall pick, could make the strongest play for Cutler. The Lions are considering Georgia quarterback Matthew Stafford with the top pick, but could reduce their risk by trading for Cutler instead. In addition, the team could likely sign Cutler to a contract extension for close to the same money Stafford would command as the No. 1 pick.

In addition, NFL sources believe Cook wouldn’t mind having Cutler play in Detroit because Cook also represents Lions budding star receiver Calvin Johnson.

With the top pick, Denver could go after a quarterback, although Stafford might not be the clear choice. Instead, Sanchez could enter the fray for the top pick. Sanchez ran a West Coast offense in college, a system that has some strong similarities to the offense McDaniels brought from New England when he was hired.

While Cutler is coming off a Pro Bowl season, several NFL sources have indicated that he has personal issues that are of concern to some teams. In 2007, Cutler lost weight during the season and dealt with weariness before doctors discovered he suffers from diabetes.

The decision to move Cutler signals what many personnel insiders had suspected for weeks: The rift between the Pro Bowl quarterback and the Broncos had long ago grown beyond repair. The fact that Cutler has gotten to the point of ignoring the owner’s calls sends a crystal-clear message that he’s willing to go to whatever lengths it takes to break ties with the franchise. That stance apparently solidified in late February when Cutler became aware the Broncos had attempted to engineer a deal for Matt Cassel. While Cassel ultimately ended up in Kansas City, Cutler never altered his mindset along the way, repeating in a handful of interviews that he wanted out of Denver.

The lone flicker of hope for the relationship seemed to come last week, when McDaniels spoke to the media and was complimentary of Cutler, while insisting he hoped to repair their relationship. But even the positive comments from McDaniels came with qualifiers, with him suggesting that Cutler was going to have to “get over” the failed trade scenario, and that Cook, the quarterback’s agent, had no place getting involved in any reconciliation. Ultimately, McDaniels’ message was clear: If the relationship was going to be repaired, it was Cutler who was going to have to make some big strides toward fixing it.

“I can’t convince anybody of anything if they don’t want to believe it,” McDaniels said. “I think part of it is, like I said, we want him to be here, we’re committed to him, and I think it’s got to be two ways. I think that’s the biggest thing – if he wants to commit to us, then I think there are some certain things that he’s going to have to get over personally. And that’s a challenge for him. It’s a challenge in this whole situation.”

Now that reconciliation appears dead, Cutler will be shopped on the open market.

pgabriel

04-01-2009, 07:14 AM

unbelievable. The Lions should do it

leroy420

04-01-2009, 08:22 AM

The Jags are interested? I wonder if the same situation will now happen with Garrard?

MadMax

04-01-2009, 08:44 AM

Congratulations, Josh. Before your very first game, you've managed to alienate your Pro Bowl QB and run him out of town. Best of luck with Chris Simms this season!!

Major

04-01-2009, 08:54 AM

Congratulations, Josh. Before your very first game, you've managed to alienate your Pro Bowl QB and run him out of town. Best of luck with Chris Simms this season!!

Cutler just might have run himself onto an 0-16 team. The coach probably could have handled it a bit better, but Jay Cutler is not some kind of untouchable superstar. He's an average but young QB who has a lot of potential but has never done a lot of winning in his college or pro career. If you believe in and can get Matt Cassell, especially given that you've coached him and know his better than most, you do it. Cutler acted like a whiny little bitch in this whole situation.

MadMax

04-01-2009, 09:09 AM

Cutler just might have run himself onto an 0-16 team. The coach probably could have handled it a bit better, but Jay Cutler is not some kind of untouchable superstar. He's an average but young QB who has a lot of potential but has never done a lot of winning in his college or pro career. If you believe in and can get Matt Cassell, especially given that you've coached him and know his better than most, you do it. Cutler acted like a whiny little bitch in this whole situation.

No one is untouchable...but players are drama queens about this stuff all the time...I don't think he should be surprised that the starting QB is pissed that the new coach is trying to trade him before his 4th season and coming off a Pro Bowl.

I can't think of a situation more poorly managed than this, honestly. The end result is their pro bowl QB is on the way out of town...and they weren't able to pull the trigger on the QB they wanted.

Cutler is a pro bowler. He was effective last season, beyond question. Denver sucked because their defense was the worst in the league. Their offense moved the ball.

They missed on Cassell...they screwed up any sense of making up with Cutler by playing power games...by saying, "Cutler's our guy....but the only reason Cassell isn't our QB is because of bad timing on our part."

That's poor management. The end result for the Broncos sucks. The head coach is responsible for the end result.

mateo

04-01-2009, 09:12 AM

J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets.

Somehow it will get done. The fans in NY will demand it.

Major

04-01-2009, 09:21 AM

No one is untouchable...but players are drama queens about this stuff all the time...I don't think he should be surprised that the starting QB is pissed that the new coach is trying to trade him before his 4th season and coming off a Pro Bowl.

True - but players go through this kind of stuff here and there. And most of them grow up and get past it. Take Robert Horry for example and his failed trade. He didn't come back to Houston and whine about it - he came back and worked to prove the Rockets wrong. Players come up in trade discussions all the time - very few just take their ball and go home, as Cutler is doing.

Cutler is a pro bowler. He was effective last season, beyond question. Denver sucked because their defense was the worst in the league. Their offense moved the ball.

They certainly moved the ball, but Cutler was also 2nd in the league in INTs vs 7th in TDs. He was 16th in QB rating. He certainly had a lot put on his shoulders, but he wasn't outstanding. And as been the trend over his career, as the pressure mounted later in the season, his performance got worse.

A big questionmark with Cutler over the last few years is how big of a competitor he is/was. His college career was marked by great performance in a low-pressure environment. His pro career has seen worse performances with higher pressure situations. And now at the first sign of adversity, he's basically been a quitter. He might have a lot of the basics (strong, accurate arm, etc) but the mental side doesn't seem to be the best. Finding a new QB that McDaniels can develop might not be the worst thing in the world for them.

MadMax

04-01-2009, 12:31 PM

True - but players go through this kind of stuff here and there. And most of them grow up and get past it. Take Robert Horry for example and his failed trade. He didn't come back to Houston and whine about it - he came back and worked to prove the Rockets wrong. Players come up in trade discussions all the time - very few just take their ball and go home, as Cutler is doing.

They certainly moved the ball, but Cutler was also 2nd in the league in INTs vs 7th in TDs. He was 16th in QB rating. He certainly had a lot put on his shoulders, but he wasn't outstanding. And as been the trend over his career, as the pressure mounted later in the season, his performance got worse.

A big questionmark with Cutler over the last few years is how big of a competitor he is/was. His college career was marked by great performance in a low-pressure environment. His pro career has seen worse performances with higher pressure situations. And now at the first sign of adversity, he's basically been a quitter. He might have a lot of the basics (strong, accurate arm, etc) but the mental side doesn't seem to be the best. Finding a new QB that McDaniels can develop might not be the worst thing in the world for them.

I draw sharp distinctions between Robert Horry and Jay Cutler. Aside from Drew Brees, I can think of no young quarterback who's shown Pro Bowl play and has been even talked about with respect to being moved....and this was from a coach who is brand new. I can't think of one good comparison to this.

Cutler's not a quitter. He played through the diabetes issue...he's never missed a game. I can agree that he played up the dramatics here...but the job of coaches and general managers is to deal with those issues, because they're everywhere. The idea that somehow Jay Cutler is a cancer to a team or something is so silly to me.

Bottom line is I think the Broncos are worse today than they were when the season ended....and I think that's completely on the coaching staff.

As an aside..what the hell are you doing messing with a young QB who has showed promise to trade for a more expensive QB when you're DEAD LAST in the league in defense??

baller4life315

04-01-2009, 01:17 PM

I draw sharp distinctions between Robert Horry and Jay Cutler. Aside from Drew Brees, I can think of no young quarterback who's shown Pro Bowl play and has been even talked about with respect to being moved....and this was from a coach who is brand new. I can't think of one good comparison to this.

Cutler's not a quitter. He played through the diabetes issue...he's never missed a game. I can agree that he played up the dramatics here...but the job of coaches and general managers is to deal with those issues, because they're everywhere. The idea that somehow Jay Cutler is a cancer to a team or something is so silly to me.

Bottom line is I think the Broncos are worse today than they were when the season ended....and I think that's completely on the coaching staff.

As an aside..what the hell are you doing messing with a young QB who has showed promise to trade for a more expensive QB when you're DEAD LAST in the league in defense??

You seem pretty big on playing this 'end result game'. The end result here is TAMPA BAY initiated trade these trade talks, Denver picked up the phone and listened. Denver did this on the off-chance this rumor not only got leaked to the media -AND- the unlikely event a professional athlete reacts the way Cutler did. Cutler's reaction to this scenario is beyond unusual, and that's placing aside the sheer fact that trade talks happen in the NFL quite regularly -- how many proposals actually get leaked? Point being: the odds played out in Denver's favor to, worst case scenario, pick up the phone and consider their options.

Where McDaniels F'd up was initially denying these reports. Outside of that, there is absolutely nothing wrong from a management standpoint to simply pick up your phone and listen. As a GM, how is it smart to not consider all your options?

And as I have posted countless times, the "power games" you speak of were all coming from the Cutler camp. He wanted Denver management to beg and grovel which they wisely refused to do. McDaniels/Bowlen made countless efforts to reach out to Cutler and essentially say, "Jay, can we put this behind us?" -- Cutler was reluctant to do so. Cutler was reluctant to do so because: (1) He's wanted out of Denver since the Shanahan/Bates firings, (2) He's PO'd that his status as a franchise QB doesn't come with any pull within the front offices, (3) He's had his home up for sale for quite some time. He's wanted out of Denver since day one and will twist this scenario to any means necessary to get out. If that isn't a display of "power", I don't know what is.

MadMax

04-01-2009, 01:19 PM

You seem pretty big on playing this 'end result game'. The end result here is TAMPA BAY initiated trade these trade talks, Denver picked up the phone and listened. Denver did this on the off-chance this rumor not only got leaked to the media -AND- the unlikely event a professional athlete reacts the way Cutler did. Cutler's reaction to this scenario is beyond unusual, and that's placing aside the sheer fact that trade talks happen in the NFL quite regularly -- how many proposals actually get leaked? Point being: the odds played out in Denver's favor to, worst case scenario, pick up the phone and consider their options.

.

We've discussed this before, and I know you're take on it. But in no way is what you just posted the "end result." It may be the cause of the end result....but it's not the end result.

But the end result is that Denver will be trading away their Pro Bowl QB and Chris Simms is their likely starter. Sweet job.

Major

04-01-2009, 01:25 PM

I draw sharp distinctions between Robert Horry and Jay Cutler. Aside from Drew Brees, I can think of no young quarterback who's shown Pro Bowl play and has been even talked about with respect to being moved....and this was from a coach who is brand new. I can't think of one good comparison to this.

True - but it's also very rare that an even better young Pro-bowl caliber QB is available to trade for. Star players get mentioned in trade talks all the time. Usually it's not young pro-bowlish QBs just because there aren't better replacements out there.

Cutler's not a quitter. He played through the diabetes issue...he's never missed a game. I can agree that he played up the dramatics here...but the job of coaches and general managers is to deal with those issues, because they're everywhere. The idea that somehow Jay Cutler is a cancer to a team or something is so silly to me.

On the flipside, he's had his feelings hurt and now refuses to play for his team. Having a QB that refuses to play is pretty much a cancer. Yes, it's up to GMs and coaches to deal with those issues - but it's also up to players to live up to their responsibilities. The team did invest $40+ million in his afterall. A GM/coach can't deal with those issues if the player refuses to communicate.

Bottom line is I think the Broncos are worse today than they were when the season ended....and I think that's completely on the coaching staff.

But they are hoping to be better a month from now than they are today, with a QB that actually will play for them.

As an aside..what the hell are you doing messing with a young QB who has showed promise to trade for a more expensive QB when you're DEAD LAST in the league in defense??

I don't know anything about their salary cap situation, but they may very well be able to upgrade at QB without hurting themselves in other areas. If they were planning to trade for Cassel, they were probably planning to trade away Cutler and get something in return - maybe that involved improving their defense, for example.

baller4life315

04-01-2009, 01:28 PM

We've discussed this before, and I know you're take on it. But in no way is what you just posted the "end result." It may be the cause of the end result....but it's not the end result.

But the end result is that Denver will be trading away their Pro Bowl QB and Chris Simms is their likely starter. Sweet job.

Right. At least we can agree it's important to acknowledge the facts and circumstances leading up to the end result then. Something some of the Cutler apologists refuse to do.

MadMax

04-01-2009, 01:33 PM

True - but it's also very rare that an even better young Pro-bowl caliber QB is available to trade for. Star players get mentioned in trade talks all the time. Usually it's not young pro-bowlish QBs just because there aren't better replacements out there.

Good point. Also because the young guys are cheaper. As Cutler is to Cassell.

On the flipside, he's had his feelings hurt and now refuses to play for his team. Having a QB that refuses to play is pretty much a cancer. Yes, it's up to GMs and coaches to deal with those issues - but it's also up to players to live up to their responsibilities. The team did invest $40+ million in his afterall. A GM/coach can't deal with those issues if the player refuses to communicate.

I don't see where he refused to communicate, though. He did. He was lied to initially and told they didn't do it....then that they did. Then was told he was the QB....but wouldn't have been but for bad timing. I'm sorry, but that's handled so piss-poorly by management. He didn't start from the point where he refused to play...he met with them multiple times. These were the responses he got. He's 25 years old. I don't think he handled this perfectly, but I put the honus of this far more on the management than I do on the 25 year old QB.

But they are hoping to be better a month from now than they are today, with a QB that actually will play for them.

Good luck with that. I know some season ticket holders in Denver who are furious.

pgabriel

04-01-2009, 01:38 PM

MadMax

04-01-2009, 01:45 PM

does a star player have more leeway to cry about being involved in a perfectly legitimate transaction. If the second string rb is involved in trade talks, he can't pout, but your young star qb can? that being said, I think if he cried but stayed, I wouldn't count it against him when evaluating how he may handle tough game situations.

No, but he has more leeway to be shocked and surprised. Young star QB's don't get traded. That's why this situation is so unique.

Funny this is happening with Denver given Elway directing where he went in the draft. :)

MadMax

04-01-2009, 01:51 PM

:)

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2009/0331/20090331__20090401_C06_SP01FBNBRFANS~p1_200.JPG

shastarocket

04-01-2009, 02:06 PM

For some reason, i think we can do w/o another primadonna on a Houston team...

Ric

04-01-2009, 02:30 PM

good luck, MadMax!

(where was this last week?...............)

MadMax

04-01-2009, 02:45 PM

good luck, MadMax!

(where was this last week?...............)

i was saying this last week. i just bailed early on the argument. :)

justtxyank

04-01-2009, 02:57 PM

Put Jay Cutler in the camp with whiny little babies like John Elway and Eli Manning who will never be any good and never win anything. They lack leadership. No team wants whiny little headcases pansies like those three.

deadlybulb

04-01-2009, 03:49 PM

Eli and Elway never won anything?

edit: Ah sarcasm meter malfunction!

justtxyank

04-01-2009, 03:50 PM

Eli never won anything?

Come on man, you'd pick Eli of the two I used?

Edit: nice edit

Ric

04-01-2009, 04:15 PM

i was saying this last week. i just bailed early on the argument. :)
very early, MM - VERY early.

but it's interesting that major fell right in line with baller while you and i agreed completely... doesn't seem to be a lot of gray area here (though it does appear now that cutler wanted out of denver the minute they fired shanahan... and mcdaniels handed him a golden ticket.)

i wonder how everyone feels about dunta robinson's situation (especially the latest news that he'll miss volunteer workouts - which, given his injury, is worrisome)? it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison but, interestingly (probably only to me), i tend to side with management on that one.

i certainly understand the players' aversion to the franchise tag - but their anger seems wildly misplaced. robinson seems to be acting under the assumption smith did this to punish him - and to a degree it does. but it also (i'd argue moreso) reenforces the team's commitment to you. if they don't want to lose you AND think you're worth top 5 money... how is that disrepectful?

in a lot of ways i'd argue it's the EXACT opposite of what denver did: one team showed a lack of commitment to one of its best players (if not best); the other a pretty definitive commitment to one of its best players.

(and i'd still offer schaub for cutler in a heartbeat)

Major

04-01-2009, 05:08 PM

I don't see where he refused to communicate, though. He did.

According to the team owner, Cutler has refused to answer any of 10 days' worth of messages from the coach and owner. I think his initial reaction was childish, but at least partly understandable. But that was something like a month ago now. It doesn't appear he has any interest in trying to make the situation work, so at that point, there's nothing the coaches can do to repair things.

baller4life315

04-01-2009, 05:26 PM

Ric

04-01-2009, 05:36 PM

This just keeps getting uglier. Has anybody been watching ESPN the past hour? The Denver camp claims they've reached out to Cutler the past 10 days or so and have been ignored. The Cutler camp claims they never received any calls, texts or anything.
it sounds to me like two camps furiously trying to CYA. my guess is that the truth is probably somewhere in between.

Rocket Fan

04-01-2009, 05:40 PM

And as been the trend over his career, as the pressure mounted later in the season, his performance got worse.

I'm a huge Jay Cutler fan and will defend him.

He has played three years in the NFL.

His first season he didn't even play until near the end of the season. Those were the very first starts of his NFL career.

His second season he was playing with undiagnosed diabetes and had lost a significant amount of weight by the end of the season. I'd think undiagnosed diabetes could make a difference in your play.

He has only been a starter for two full seasons and one of those he was dealing with undiagnosed diabetes. I think it is too early to make such a statement about a trend.

baller4life315

04-01-2009, 06:04 PM

it sounds to me like two camps furiously trying to CYA. my guess is that the truth is probably somewhere in between.

Most likely. If one is trying to point fingers they might feel inclined to point them at McDaniels/Denver given how McDaniels initially lied about this story once it surfaced, but Denver has a lot to lose and everything to gain by trying to move forward with the healing process. For that reason, I don't really doubt the Denver camp has made the effort. But yeah, there's obviously a lot more to this story regarding the communication issues than ESPN is able to report.

Major

04-01-2009, 07:06 PM

He has only been a starter for two full seasons and one of those he was dealing with undiagnosed diabetes. I think it is too early to make such a statement about a trend.

Certainly - I didn't mean to suggest that he will be a failure as a QB. Just that he still has a lot of questionmarks and he's not an "untouchable" player at this point. Eli was a player who seemed to be mentally not very good and then suddenly figured it all out. Vince seems to have been the opposite so far. So with young QB's, there are all sorts of questions - but my only point was that it wasn't unreasonable for the new coach to consider other options, especially given that he knew Cassel inside and out.

Rocket Fan

04-01-2009, 09:13 PM

Major:

The Broncos certainly do have the right to consider trading a player. I think Jay is a great quarterback but I'm a fan so I'll admit that I may be biased.

As for how this situation has been handled, I find it hard to really judge the reactions of both sides on this issue without knowing exactly how the conversations went between the Broncos and Jay. Also, it is hard to know without knowing the details about how the relationship between Jay and the Broncos has been behind the scenes throughout his career.

rezdawg

04-01-2009, 09:51 PM

I have to agree with Mark Schlereth...was watching him on ESPN talking about this. Although he does place some blame on how Denver handled this, here are some other quotes regarding Cutler, which I fully agree with...

"But the thing is, in this situation, Jay Cutler has to understand, I mean, he acts that he's the first guy that has ever been lied to by an NFL franchise. As a matter of fact, he acts like he is the ONLY one that has ever had hurt feelings."

"You own it to those guys that you play with on a daily basis, and thats what he doesnt understand, I mean, he looks at himself like he's the first guy. Look at all the guys before you that went on strike and did this and basically sacrificed so you can have free agency and now, in Denver, you're looked at as the biggest spoiled baby that has ever played in the franchise, and thats what people think of you."

I agree...I place blame on the coach as well, but this thing would have never come to this point had Cutler not acted like a girl.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4034863

Rocket River

04-01-2009, 10:21 PM

Rocket River

04-01-2009, 10:24 PM

He's wanted out of Denver since day one and will twist this scenario to any means necessary to get out. If that isn't a display of "power", I don't know what is.

*chuckle*
Maybe this is PAYBACK for the way they got Elway

Rocket River
Karma?

texanskan

04-02-2009, 01:50 AM

I'm sure Dan "I hate draft picks" Snyder will land him

MadMax

04-02-2009, 08:18 AM

very early, MM - VERY early.

[/SIZE]

baller say it so differently that we did the round and round for a while, but ended up bringing up the same points again and again. that's usually when i try to bail.

i'm with you on the dunta situation, too. different facts in that instance.

but i have to say...i put lot more responsibility on management for taking care of mending these relationships than i do on the athletes, many of whom are still "kids" from my view.

The Cat

04-02-2009, 08:54 AM

I just hope he goes to a good team so that the excuses can stop when Schaub outperforms him again.

Major

04-02-2009, 09:03 AM

but i have to say...i put lot more responsibility on management for taking care of mending these relationships than i do on the athletes, many of whom are still "kids" from my view.

This is where we come at things from different sides. I tend to put more of the blame on players for all these kinds of things. I've gotten in that argument about steroids and labor issues and stuff like with lots of people - and I almost always take management's side.

MadMax

04-02-2009, 09:04 AM

According to the team owner, Cutler has refused to answer any of 10 days' worth of messages from the coach and owner. I think his initial reaction was childish, but at least partly understandable. But that was something like a month ago now. It doesn't appear he has any interest in trying to make the situation work, so at that point, there's nothing the coaches can do to repair things.

And here's why I don't believe it:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12040620?source=rss

A source close to Cutler said the quarterback was surprised by Bowlen's declaration. In recent days, Cutler had packed up his car in Nashville and had it shipped to Denver, where he intended to show up for the team's first minicamp April 17-19.
The source added that Cutler said he has not received phone calls from the Broncos since he received a text from McDaniels a week ago Tuesday. Whatever the interpretation, Bowlen decided to exercise his ownership powers and end all confusion. He's the boss, and he says the team will trade Cutler.

If he's cutting off communications, then he's not paying to have his car shipped to Denver for minicamp, which is voluntary. The same minicamp that Robinson and Ryans are skipping out on here in Houston because they're just upset with current contracts.

The only party I'm SURE has lied in this whole mess is the Broncos. I don't put a lot of faith in what they're saying now, frankly.

MadMax

04-02-2009, 09:08 AM

This is where we come at things from different sides. I tend to put more of the blame on players for all these kinds of things. I've gotten in that argument about steroids and labor issues and stuff like with lots of people - and I almost always take management's side.

I usually find myself representing management in real life. :)

But I approach these issues in a "who should've known better" sort of framework.

You know if you speak loosely around the workplace, that what you say can have an effect on the psyche of those working for you. If he views them as easily replaceable, maybe the manager doesn't care.

But to:

1. lie to a guy about your involvement in trying to move him out;

2. issue a "uh, yes we did" sort of statement thereafter;

3. and then bring him in to patch things up by saying: "hey, you're our guy....but for some bad timing on our part only, though...otherwise you'd be gone and cassell would be here."

is just poor management of people to me.

and i think the broncos will regret it.

baller4life315

04-02-2009, 04:32 PM

ESPN reporting Denver traded Captain Douchebag to Chicago for Kyle Orton and two first-rounders.

baller4life315

04-02-2009, 04:35 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4037373

Cutler going to Bears

The Chicago Bears pulled the big upset Thursday afternoon by acquiring Denver Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler, a source told ESPN.com.

The Broncos confirmed the move.

To acquire Cutler, the Bears had to give up quarterback Kyle Orton and first-round picks in 2009 and 2010, a source said.

To complete the trade, the Broncos had to give back an undisclosed draft choice in a later round.

The Bears beat out the Redskins, Buccaneers, Lions, Titans and other teams to get land the 25-year-old Pro Bowl quarterback.

The Broncos had been asking for at least two first-round choices.

Cutler asked to be traded when he found out first-year coach Josh McDaniels tried to acquire Matt Cassel in a trade with the Patriots.

Cutler had not returned phone calls from the Broncos, according to the team, and had been staying away from the offseason program.

Very interesting. Well, at least if you're a Chicago fan.

juicystream

04-02-2009, 05:03 PM

The Bears beat out the Redskins, Buccaneers, Lions, Titans and other teams to get land the 25-year-old Pro Bowl quarterback.

Shows the confidence in Vince Young and Jason Campbell.

Major

04-02-2009, 05:06 PM

Shows the confidence in Vince Young and Jason Campbell.

I wonder if those guys will now throw fits because their teams tried to replace them. :D

juicystream

04-02-2009, 05:14 PM

The only party I'm SURE has lied in this whole mess is the Broncos. I don't put a lot of faith in what they're saying now, frankly.

You're not sure Cutler/Cook lied? I demand a trade. I never wanted to be traded. I think Cutler is the more obvious liar.

justtxyank

04-02-2009, 06:17 PM

I wonder if those guys will now throw fits because their teams tried to replace them. :D

Jay Cutler > > > > Jason Campbell > Kyle Orton > Vince Young

bigtexxx

04-02-2009, 06:33 PM

lol the Titans were in the running? Somebody put out the suicide watch for VY6

Ric

04-02-2009, 06:47 PM

I wonder if those guys will now throw fits because their teams tried to replace them. :D
LOL.

but seriously, that does underscore the uniqueness of this situation. jason campbell and vince young are not very good and certainly not in cutler's class. MM mentioned this about 3500 posts ago but it's hard - if not impossible - to name a QB of cutler's ilk (or, if you prefer, potential) being dealt at this point in their career. brees several years ago, but that was an entirely different situation - and brees had massive "one-year wonder" potential at the time.

and - wow: it's 2 1's and a 3 + orton for cutler and a 5.... they now have the ammunition to go get stafford or sanchez while using their other #1 on defense....... gotta give denver credit for making a bad situation not quite as bad.

meh

04-02-2009, 07:44 PM

Wow, 2 1sts and at worst a young backup QB. Seems pretty steep for a guy with a lot of attitude problems.