ClutchFans - Sage being dealt to Vikings(Deal done announcement Friday)

Wakko67

02-23-2009, 12:24 PM

Chron is reporting that we are close to a deal to send Rosenfels to Minn for an undisclosed draft pick.

Seeing as they wanted a third rounder last year for him, I'm guessing its either a fourth or fifth. I hope at least, but I doubt he would be moved for something less than that.

This could really help if they're interested in moving up at all.

Chron Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6276358.html)

nWo34Life

02-23-2009, 12:24 PM

WHAAAT?? When his stock is down, why in the world would we trade him?

Wakko67

02-23-2009, 12:25 PM

WHAAAT?? When his stock is down, why in the world would we trade him?

I think his contract is up after this coming year. Better to get something in return than letting him walk for nothing. If nothing else they can use the pick to draft his replacement.

emjohn

02-23-2009, 12:27 PM

yobod

02-23-2009, 12:29 PM

ima_drummer2k

02-23-2009, 12:32 PM

Wow, first the Rockets learn they will be without McGrady now the Texans will be without Sage.

Two of the most vilified players (of late) in the city both gone the same week. It's almost like the city of Houston is cleaning out it's sports closet.

These things always happen in 3's. What will the Astros do?

rocketteen

02-23-2009, 12:33 PM

If this trade does go through, you will see the Texans definitely take a Qb in the middle rounds. There's talk that McGee (A&M) and Hoyer (MSU) have looked very good and both of those guys had minimal success with their respective programs. So it could be a case of their talents not being showcased due to the lack of talent surround them.

nWo34Life

02-23-2009, 12:35 PM

Well, I hope we get a 4th for him.....

I guess our backup will be Brink, but I also read in the Chron article that they will be looking for a veteran QB....

On TexansTalk, someone heard on the radio this morning that Weaver might be cut. :)

Sucks that we signed a bust, but getting rid of him would wipe the slate clean on getting that pass rusher opposite Mario in the draft.

kaleidosky

02-23-2009, 12:35 PM

if we get a 4th rndr as the chron claims might be the pick.. i would be ecstatic

yobod

02-23-2009, 12:35 PM

Wakko67

02-23-2009, 12:38 PM

tested911

02-23-2009, 12:40 PM

Oh damn that means were going after Kurt Warner lol :eek:

leroy420

02-23-2009, 12:40 PM

ima_drummer2k

02-23-2009, 12:43 PM

Wouldn't this be the third, with Rafer being the second?
Good point. I guess the Astros are safe. ;)

DonnyMost

02-23-2009, 12:43 PM

who is our backup now?

nWo34Life

02-23-2009, 12:44 PM

who is our backup now?

Right now, Alex Brink.

raw10628

02-23-2009, 12:49 PM

The Vikings must still have game tape from 2007. I think Sage for a 4th is great. At this point I don't think his value will go up at all.

Naija Texan

02-23-2009, 12:49 PM

I don't understand the logic of trading him NOW, when his stock is at a low-point? And if anything, his value for US is still at a high-point given the fact that we have yet to have a full season where Schaub stays healthy. I take it they are either planning on moving Brink/Boyd along quickly, or we're thinking of drafting a QB with one of our lower picks. I also see them taking the pick they get with this trade (probably a 5th) and packaging it with a higher round pick, and moving up maybe? Although we still have yet to be penalized for this training camp fiasco, so maybe this is the front office's way of hedging that loss of a draft pick. I don't know....there are a lot of angles, but in the end, I don't really understand the timing. Maybe it will become clearer on draft day.

We will probably sign Chris Nall, given he has been signed twice to back up Sage when Schaub went down, so he will at least know the system and won't require too much retraining while Kubiak tries to develop someone younger.

I do agree with you, this is a risk given the uncertainty of Matt Schaub's health but in the game of football, you never know what is going to happen.

TheRealist137

02-23-2009, 12:51 PM

I say bring back David Carr, he can succeed with the Houston Texans.

nWo34Life

02-23-2009, 12:59 PM

I say bring back David Carr, he can succeed with the Houston Texans.

Are you being a realist there or is that a hint of sarcasm?

DieHard Rocket

02-23-2009, 01:09 PM

Sucks we couldn't cash in last year while his value was higher, but Schaub was still a little unproven and we weren't sure how sturdy he was (still aren't, really). I guess they now know Schaub is the man, and he missed fewer games last year.

We also might have our eyes on a backup in free agency. Or maybe we're getting Frerotte back too?

ThaShark316_28

02-23-2009, 01:16 PM

Ok, you guys can start the "draft Pat White" campaigning now.

:D

Good deal...I hope it's conditional....higher pick based on production.

plee

02-23-2009, 01:19 PM

weslinder

02-23-2009, 01:26 PM

So I guess that means the Texans will draft a quarterback? I wouldn't mind taking a chance on the Utah QB in the late rounds. I really don't know why he's not rated higher.

conquistador#11

02-23-2009, 01:27 PM

Right now, Alex Brink.

no, no it's owen daniels. that's why we can't let the bills' contact him, not even a text message. =)

I think sage would do great in minny, that's why they should give us a 3rd rounder. If brett favre makes the mistakes sage made, he would just be a guy having fun, wanting to win.

dskillz

02-23-2009, 01:27 PM

I strongly suspect Rosenfels and his agent pushed hard for a trade. He badly wants to start and believes he can succeed in that role.

Should he learn to quit going for broke and attempting to make home run plays beyond his ability....it's possible.

But whatever pick we get for him will probably be needed for a roll of the dice QB. It'll be a wash.

It is kind of late in his career to change his habits. Last year he had the perfect chance to showcase himself and he was a turnover machine. Silly turnovers, thinking he is Joe Montana turnovers. So not sure if he will be any better up there.

But now we NEED a backup with a quickness. I wonder if the team is going to draft a QB or sign a veteran.

ima_drummer2k

02-23-2009, 01:29 PM

I would really prefer that we didn't draft a QB at all and just found a backup on the FA market. We don't really have a good track record drafting QBs........................

H-Town Info

02-23-2009, 01:29 PM

Ok, you guys can start the "draft Pat White" campaigning now.

:D

Good deal...I hope it's conditional....higher pick based on production.

*praying for Pat White to be there for the texans*

conquistador#11

02-23-2009, 01:32 PM

I would really prefer that we didn't draft a QB at all and just found a backup on the FA market. We don't really have a good track record drafting QBs........................

Agree. I would even try to convince jake to retire from playing team handball and join us. Tampa still own his rights... i think.

rrj_gamz

02-23-2009, 01:33 PM

well, hopefully they have a plan B

Ric

02-23-2009, 01:33 PM

We don't really have a good track record drafting QBs........................
not for nothing, but the current regime - which has drafted very, very well - has no track record drafting QBs.

leroy420

02-23-2009, 01:35 PM

not for nothing, but the current regime - which has drafted very, very well - has no track record drafting QBs.

Well then ima isn't wrong. They don't have a track record so they consequently don't have a good track record...They don't have a bad one either.

[/incoherent rambling]

(it sounded much funnier in my head)

ima_drummer2k

02-23-2009, 01:42 PM

not for nothing, but the current regime - which has drafted very, very well - has no track record drafting QBs.
I was being facetious, but I would still rather fill the backup position with a vet from the scrapheap instead of a longshot draft pick. Too many other needs on the defense, IMO.

DonnyMost

02-23-2009, 01:43 PM

not for nothing, but the current regime - which has drafted very, very well - has no track record drafting QBs.

I kind of consider Schaub "drafted" since he hadn't started for a team... and they gave up picks for him. And so far he, save for injuries, he has done well.

Landlord Landry

02-23-2009, 01:57 PM

I strongly suspect Rosenfels and his agent pushed hard for a trade. He badly wants to start and believes he can succeed in that role.

I don't think Sage is going to be a starter in Minnesota.

manbearpig

02-23-2009, 02:00 PM

The Texans and Vikings are close to a trade that would send quarterback Sage Rosenfels to Minnesota, possibly for a fourth-round draft pick, the Houston Chronicle reported Monday.

This is the second consecutive year in which the Vikings have been interested in acquiring Rosenfels, who is near the end of his contract, to be their starting quarterback.

Rosenfels wanted to be traded to the Vikings last season in hopes of starting for a team that has Adrian Peterson and Chester Taylor at running back and has led the NFL in run defense for two straight years. At the time, the Vikings reportedly offered a third-round draft choice, but the Texans wanted a second-round pick. Both teams denied an offer was made.

Minnesota already has quarterbacks Gus Frerotte and Tarvaris Jackson on its roster and will want to extend Rosenfels' contract if the trade is completed.

The Texans had no comment Monday on the report.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3928630

I dont think he was worth a 2nd rounder. I think that we can all look at one play when wondering how he fell from a 2nd rounder to a 4th.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vqg6xnKP0AA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vqg6xnKP0AA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

nWo34Life

02-23-2009, 02:02 PM

Looks like a 4th and the Vikings will sign him to a 3-year, $9 mil extension according to 610.

askball

02-23-2009, 02:08 PM

I definitely believe Sage will start for the Vikings.

They're signing him to an extension and they're giving up a 4th rounder.

That team is built to win now. Their major weakness is at QB. Sage improves that position immediately.

DieHard Rocket

02-23-2009, 02:08 PM

I don't think Sage is going to be a starter in Minnesota.

I'm sure he won't be named the starter going into training camp, but I'd expect that he would beat out Jackson in the preseason. I don't know if Frerrote wants to go back unless he is promised the starting position...I remember reading about him saying that before. And I'm sure they would rather insert a younger Rosenfels who should be just as good as Frerrote was last year.

Ric

02-23-2009, 02:08 PM

I don't think Sage is going to be a starter in Minnesota.
that would be by his own hand then because they're certainly dealing for (and apparently extending) him with the idea that he will be their starter. he's certainly an upgrade over jackson and frerotte.

msn

02-23-2009, 02:16 PM

The Rosenfumble replays will be much more palatable--even entertaining--to watch now that he's wearing a different uniform.

All the best to Sage. Nice guy and all, and I realize you gotta have a good backup QB and he was decent, but I'm not going to miss him.

gucci888

02-23-2009, 02:31 PM

A 4th rounder for Sage is very good value, especially considering how he played last season. As for our backup, I wouldn't be suprised if the Texans bring in a vet as well as spend the extra pick on drafting a QB. Schaub has yet to show that he can stay on the field for an entire season, a backup QB is now one of our more dire needs this offseason.

Air Langhi

02-23-2009, 02:42 PM

watch him be the next brad lidge. I don't get the NFL I think Marshall faulk went for a 2 or a 3.

dream34shake

02-23-2009, 02:54 PM

watch him be the next brad lidge. I don't get the NFL I think Marshall faulk went for a 2 or a 3.

Agreed. Randy Moss went for a 4 and an unproven commodity at the time like Schaub goes for 2 2nd's and a swap of 1st rounders.

xcrunner51

02-23-2009, 03:21 PM

Moss was coming off a terrible season in Oakland and was a cancer in that lockerroom. It was as much about Oakland getting rid of him as getting something in return. Plus I think he had some say in where he was getting traded to, so Oakland may not have taken the best deal.

I personally think we gave up way too much for Schaub, but if he's potentially your franchise quarterback then it's somewhat understandable. NE franchised Cassel knowing they already have the best QB on the planet because they know they can get a huge package for Cassel. He showed people he can be a franchise quarterback. Call 'em crazy for paying their backup $15mil a year but that's the value of a tradable, young franchise QB.

moonnumack

02-23-2009, 03:26 PM

I think getting a 4th rounder for Sage is a decent save by the front office. I agreed with holding out for a 2nd last year as were still pretty unsure about Schaub. However, this is the last year of his contract, and I don't see any reason to re-sign him after this season. Trading him now allows us to draft a middle-round QB to groom in case the Schaub experiment goes array this year.

Republic

02-23-2009, 03:29 PM

watch him be the next brad lidge.

For sure. I think the Lions strike out too much.

No Worries

02-23-2009, 04:04 PM

Fun facts:

11 - number of games Matt Schaub started in 2008

11 - number of games Matt Schaub started in 2007

See http://www.nfl.com/players/mattschaub/profile?id=SCH085186

heymak

02-23-2009, 05:28 PM

How about Jeff Garcia as a backup. Didn't the Buc's say he's not coming back. I know he's old but he could still back up Shaub.

Wakko67

02-23-2009, 05:33 PM

How about Jeff Garcia as a backup. Didn't the Buc's say he's not coming back. I know he's old but he could still back up Shaub.

He wants to start somewhere.

heymak

02-23-2009, 05:49 PM

He wants to start somewhere.
Playing behind Matt may be his best chance at getting a starting job. I hope I'm wrong but Shaub doesn't seem to have the best luck.

kaleidosky

02-23-2009, 05:55 PM

Fun facts:

11 - number of games Matt Schaub started in 2008

11 - number of games Matt Schaub started in 2007

See http://www.nfl.com/players/mattschaub/profile?id=SCH085186

thanks, most of us realize that.

I don't think you can really label him 'injury prone' just yet, though.

Lowry_Fan

02-23-2009, 07:02 PM

Good trade. Now draft Pat White to back up Schaub.

moestavern19

02-23-2009, 07:17 PM

Good trade. Now draft Pat White to back up Schaub.

Ooo and then.. trade for Owen Schmitt from Seattle, and then you'd have the entire 2007 WV backfield.

Chamillionaire

02-23-2009, 08:37 PM

I say bring back David Carr, he can succeed with the Houston Texans.

it's sarcasm. gotta be.

Chamillionaire

02-23-2009, 08:40 PM

he's gonna have an easy job, 1st and 2nd down, just hand the ball over. sometimes a playfake and throw it down field.

i mean, they got some rbs.

texanskan

02-23-2009, 10:34 PM

Bob Allen just said the Texans are not happy with Jacoby Jones and are looking to shop him

rocketsjudoka

02-23-2009, 10:36 PM

How about Jeff Garcia as a backup. Didn't the Buc's say he's not coming back. I know he's old but he could still back up Shaub.

I just saw it on the local MN news the report that the Vikes are in talks with the Texans for Rosenthals. Apparently the Vikes current GM was the GM when Rosenthals was playing for Miami. The Vikes are also looking at Jeff Garcia though if the Rosenthals deal falls through.

msn

02-23-2009, 10:46 PM

Rosenthals
Man, that's not even funny. If you're gonna butcher his name, you gotta do it in reference to his playmaking ability (Rosenfumble) or his overall job performance (Rosenfails). Rosenthals just doesn't make any sense. :p :p

[/reallydumbjoke]

v3.0

02-23-2009, 10:49 PM

How about Jeff Garcia as a backup. Didn't the Buc's say he's not coming back. I know he's old but he could still back up Shaub.
His wife is hotter then some of the texans cheerleaders. :eek:

nWo34Life

02-23-2009, 10:51 PM

Bob Allen just said the Texans are not happy with Jacoby Jones and are looking to shop him

Man, what can we get for this guy?

If we can only put stickum on his gloves, he would be a keeper.

tigereye

02-23-2009, 11:11 PM

Man, that's not even funny. If you're gonna butcher his name, you gotta do it in reference to his playmaking ability (Rosenfumble) or his overall job performance (Rosenfails). Rosenthals just doesn't make any sense. :p :p

[/reallydumbjoke]

Man how can you actually forget the best name of all.....

Sage Rosencopter

Somewhere in cyberspace, there's a gif of "that play" with this name as the caption

msn

02-23-2009, 11:44 PM

Man how can you actually forget the best name of all.....

Saving that for when it's official: Rosengone.

Jet Blast

02-24-2009, 12:03 AM

Trades can't occur until Friday. There's a lot of time between now and then. I hope Minnesota doesn't change its mind.

Chamillionaire

02-24-2009, 03:12 AM

we ought to be getting a higher pick imo. i mean, he's gonna start for em.

NewRoxFan

02-24-2009, 07:31 AM

One of those "everyone is a winner" type deals. Texans get a draft pick, where they would have him simply walk if they kept him. MIN gets a starting QB using only a 4th round pick (seriously... if a team drafted a QB with a #4 and that QB became the starter their GM would look a genius); Sage gets to start for a team with reasonable playoff expectations, and Schaub starts without anyone looking ovcer his shoulder. Heck, more winners: the ex-Bronco vet we sign as a backup (natch, it has to be an ex-Bronco) get's a shot at starting a few games when Schaub goes down with his annual injury. And Chron writers win, claiming "I told ya so" when Sage does wellin MIN while the ex-Bronco backup QB struggleshere in HOU. See... everyone is a winner... :D

Vinsanity

02-24-2009, 11:55 AM

He'll do very well in MN and should be their starter.

The Cat

02-24-2009, 02:26 PM

The idea that the Texans should get more than a fourth is just laughable.

Do you guys remember how negative the reaction was when the Texans signed Rosenfels a few years ago? That's because he was a middle-of-the-road, mediocre backup. He still is. He's had a few successful games off the bench? Whoop-de-do. Lots of quarterbacks can have success as a change of pace, when there isn't a scouting report on them and there isn't a scouting report on how the offense or other players change with them in control. He's far too turnover-prone to be a dependable starter, and is 31 years old and in the last year of his deal.

The Texans have very good skill players offensively that can make a number of quarterbacks appear passable. Posting a QB rating of 79 with this system and these players isn't rocket science. Rosenfels is the same mediocre, fill-in backup he's always been -- nothing more, nothing less. Players like him are dime-a-dozen, and several are available via free agency this year. So, if you can get a decent draft pick at all, you do it in a heartbeat, because you can replace his role in about two seconds in March.

And yes, what happened to Rosenfels in his most high-profile situation this year lowers his value even more. When you have a limited sample size, as he does, things like that tend to stand out.

msn

02-24-2009, 02:33 PM

Garbage Time Pro-Bowler. Let's get that pick!

The Cat

02-24-2009, 02:58 PM

To put it in better perspective, I'd say a fairly comparable player to Rosenfels would be Brian Griese.

Both are solid NFL veteran quarterbacks. Both have decent size, limited mobility, leadership experience, "professionalism," etc. Both are coachable. Both tend to have the gunslinger mentality. As such, both turn the ball over more than they should. Both have regularly started in a pinch -- i.e., 4 or 5 games a year in the past several years, with the exception of one of Griese's seasons in Tampa. Both are in that same class of not good enough to make your full-time starter, but you won't lose sleep if they have to start a fefw games.

What was the value for Griese a year ago? He's a fairly comparable case -- he was two years older than Rosenfels this year, but had an additional year on his contract, so that evens out. To get him, the Bears gave up... Griese and a seventh round pick, for a sixth-round pick from Tampa a year later. The Broncos straight up released him a few years ago.

Say it with me, folks: dime a dozen. Can Rosenfels make a positive contribution to a football team? Sure he can. The problem is, you can't get more than a fourth because there are so damn many quarterbacks that can make the same contributions! It's just not that rare. It just seems more rare in Houston because of the disaster of David Carr.

msn

02-24-2009, 03:05 PM

From what I hear, Minny fans aren't exactly teeming with excitement.

sjh10121james

02-24-2009, 03:18 PM

though my sources aren't too much reliable, ive heard word that the texans have shown some interest in michael vick

gucci888

02-24-2009, 03:47 PM

From what I hear, Minny fans aren't exactly teeming with excitement.

Ya...the Vikes have been pretty stingy when it has come to investing in QBs. Bringing in Sage isn't exactly the big name the fans were looking for after having to watch Jackson and Ferotte suck it up.

Castor27

02-24-2009, 05:53 PM

Heard on the drive home this was a done deal for a 4th round pick. It will be announced on Friday once trades are allowed.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6277538.html

BmwM3

02-24-2009, 05:59 PM

though my sources aren't too much reliable, ive heard word that the texans have shown some interest in michael vick

Bob Mcnair would never let that happen

R0cketC1ty123

02-24-2009, 07:26 PM

SPLASH

No Worries

02-25-2009, 09:16 AM

Say it with me, folks: dime a dozen. Can Rosenfels make a positive contribution to a football team? Sure he can. The problem is, you can't get more than a fourth because there are so damn many quarterbacks that can make the same contributions! It's just not that rare.
You could be right. The Texans might very well be able to pick up a backup QB who does as well as Sage. But Sage is by far the best backup QB the Texans have managed to land, so it is not a given that the Texans will find a "dime a dozen" replacement.

Sage also had managed to win games when he started. Given Schaub's health, one would expect the Texan backup QB to start five games next year. That is a lot of games to put in the hands of the backup QB if your team has playoff apsirations, especially given the competition in the Texans division.

I posit that from the Texans perspective that Sage is worth well more than a fourth round pick.

The Cat

02-25-2009, 09:29 AM

You could be right. The Texans might very well be able to pick up a backup QB who does as well as Sage. But Sage is by far the best backup QB the Texans have managed to land, so it is not a given that the Texans will find a "dime a dozen" replacement.

Sage also had managed to win games when he started. Given Schaub's health, one would expect the Texan backup QB to start five games next year. That is a lot of games to put in the hands of the backup QB if your team has playoff apsirations, especially given the competition in the Texans division.

I posit that from the Texans perspective that Sage is worth well more than a fourth round pick.

I highly, highly disagree there. Tony Banks, a journeyman in every sense of the word, posted nearly identical numbers to Sage's best season in 2003, the only year Banks got significant playing time (7 games, 3 starts) with the Texans. And that was with a supporting cast that was significantly worse than the one Rosenfels has had around him.

http://www.nfl.com/players/tonybanks/profile?id=BAN403290

As for expecting the Houston backup QB to start five games next year, it's worth noting that in each season, Schaub's most major injury has drawn a league maximum penalty from the NFL for an illegal hit on the defender. Yes, it's a contact sport, but expecting that to happen every season is a little silly, imo. His history tells you he'll probably miss a couple of games, like most quarterbacks, but missing five games was a fluke.

msn

02-25-2009, 09:29 AM

Sage also had managed to win games when he started.
No, he didn't. He performed well, and his team managed to win games. He *did*, however, manage to *lose* a game or two.

rezdawg

02-25-2009, 09:32 AM

But Sage is by far the best backup QB the Texans have managed to land, so it is not a given that the Texans will find a "dime a dozen" replacement.

Well, we dont really have much of a history...We've had Sage for 3 seasons and the 3 years prior to that, we had Tony Banks.

Tony started 3 games for us during his few years in Houston...finished with a 2-1 record, with the one loss being a 3 point loss to the Patriots. That season was his most significant in terms of PT and he was able to post an 84.3 rating. For his career as a Texan, his rating was at 79.02.

Sage's rating last season was at 79.5. It can even be argued that Sage, with the Texans, has had many more weapons on offense than Banks ever did with Houston.

Really, a back up is a back up. There is a reason why they are in that predicament to begin with. It shouldnt be hard to find someone that can come in and toss a few balls around. This offense that we are fielding will make the job much easier for any QB that has to spell Schaub for a few plays/games.

pgabriel

02-25-2009, 09:58 AM

a two year in a row fluke

edit: for a guy who's only started two years

No Worries

02-25-2009, 10:15 AM

No, he didn't. He performed well, and his team managed to win games. He *did*, however, manage to *lose* a game or two.
That is a load of crap.

If the team wins, its a team win.

If the team loses, its all of Sage's fault.

stevel

02-25-2009, 10:19 AM

I have never had a problem with Sage, but I have to say he did lose the Indy game for us. Too many TOs in the fourth, thats on him.

No Worries

02-25-2009, 10:26 AM

As for expecting the Houston backup QB to start five games next year, it's worth noting that in each season, Schaub's most major injury has drawn a league maximum penalty from the NFL for an illegal hit on the defender.
So the ass pounding Schaub got for holding the ball too long, which did not get flagged for an illegal hit, don't really count. It is all becoming clear.

FWIW part of the blame for Schaub's injuries is the OL. Maybe if Schaub played behind a better pass blocking OL, he would get hurt less. Maybe.

Any bets if Schaub goes down for 4/5 games next year and our record is not better that Kubiak is shown the door. This is a huge bet by Kubiak that his yet-to-be-signed backup QB will save his job.

MadMax

02-25-2009, 10:30 AM

So the ass pounding Schaub got for holding the ball too long, which did not get flagged for an illegal hit, don't really count. It is all becoming clear.

FWIW part of the blame for Schaub's injuries is the OL. Maybe if Schaub played behind a better pass blocking OL, he would get hurt less. Maybe.

Any bets if Schaub goes down for 4/5 games next year and our record is not better that Kubiak is shown the door. This is a huge bet by Kubiak that his yet-to-be-signed backup QB will save his job.

How in the world are people still criticizing the OL???

After watching this team finish 4th in passing yards and 3rd in total yards, when is anyone gonna give the OL any credit for that???

If this offensive line still sucks...then Schaub is the greatest QB in the league for guiding this team to that kind of success in the air.

No Worries

02-25-2009, 10:42 AM

How in the world are people still criticizing the OL???

After watching this team finish 4th in passing yards and 3rd in total yards, when is anyone gonna give the OL any credit for that???
So how many Texan OL-men went to he pro bowl?

The Texans OL do not pick up blitzes well. They just don't. Compare the Texans OL ability to pick up blitzing versus the playoff teams OL. It is really sad.

The Texans also rely heavily on 3-step-drop passes. They complete a lot of short yardage, high percentage passes. They struggle with the longer routes and some of this is because the OL has troubles holding their blocks that long.

MadMax

02-25-2009, 10:46 AM

So how many Texan OL-men went to he pro bowl?

The Texans OL do not pick up blitzes well. They just don't. Compare the Texans OL ability to pick up blitzing versus the playoff teams OL. It is really sad.

The Texans also rely heavily on 3-step-drop passes. They complete a lot of short yardage, high percentage passes. They struggle with the longer routes and some of this is because the OL has troubles holding their blocks that long.

I don't care how many went to the Pro Bowl. The point is, they did their job. This team was able to move the football. At some point people have to recognize the OL is part of that success. Of course it can be improved...but this is an above-average line to produce those kinds of results.

pgabriel

02-25-2009, 10:47 AM

So how many Texan OL-men went to he pro bowl?

Ben Rothlesburger was the most sacked qb in 2008.

Raven Lunatic

02-25-2009, 10:48 AM

I personally believe that we'll get a full season out of Schaub this year (meaning 14+ games started) and I think he will solidify himself as one of the better QBs in the league in the process (maybe top 10 or better). I think the injuries to him were flukes, as The Cat detailed, and I think how well Matt held up in that last Tennessee win last year is evidence of that. He got hammered pretty hard in that game, but kept getting back up because he never had any truly dirty hits designed to hurt him. I think the guy is sufficiently tough as long as he is receiving NFL hits and not cheap shots.

rocketsjudoka

02-25-2009, 10:51 AM

rocketsjudoka

02-25-2009, 10:59 AM

Ya...the Vikes have been pretty stingy when it has come to investing in QBs. Bringing in Sage isn't exactly the big name the fans were looking for after having to watch Jackson and Ferotte suck it up.

I haven't really heard or seen much talk here about getting Rosenfels. T-Jac, thats what they call Jackson here, had a crappy first two games but came back decently late in the season. I still have a feeling he is going to be the quarterback of the future. He's still young and has shown he can be coached and is learning the proper balance between being a good passer and also being a good runner. Ferotte filled in well as a starter. Neither were steller but overall for the season were decent.

No Worries

02-25-2009, 11:04 AM

I don't care how many went to the Pro Bowl. The point is, they did their job. This team was able to move the football. At some point people have to recognize the OL is part of that success.
it is important to note that the team finish 4th in passing yards and 3rd in total yards, You said that the OL should be recognized for their success, yet no Pro Bowl nods.

How about this stat? Points per game. How well did the team do? 3rd in overall yards should equate to about the same rank in points per game, right?

Ahh, but the offense struggled in the Red Zone. Who to blame? The offense puts up great run/pass stats, yet failed to deliver in the Red Zone, where it really counts. Who to blame?

Here is another stat? win-loss record.

rezdawg

02-25-2009, 11:08 AM

So how many Texan OL-men went to he pro bowl?

Huh? What does that have to do with anything? That is a terrible measure of success.

For the AFC, the Titans and Dolphins, both playoff teams, failed to have any pro bowl linemen.

For the NFC, out of the 6 playoff teams, only 2 of them had probowl linemen. The Giants, Panthers, Falcons, and Cardinals had zero probowlers from their OLine.

Our OLine must be doing something right when it gives up less sacks than Baltimore, Minnesota, New England, and Pittsburgh...all teams that are known for being monsters in the trenches.

MadMax

02-25-2009, 11:16 AM

it is important to note that the team finish 4th in passing yards and 3rd in total yards, You said that the OL should be recognized for their success, yet no Pro Bowl nods.

How about this stat? Points per game. How well did the team do? 3rd in overall yards should equate to about the same rank in points per game, right?

Ahh, but the offense struggled in the Red Zone. Who to blame? The offense puts up great run/pass stats, yet failed to deliver in the Red Zone, where it really counts. Who to blame?

Here is another stat? win-loss record.

Yes, I said they should be recognized for their success...I don't know if individually any one of them merits a Pro Bowl invite...but as a group, they were the unit up front for the 3rd best offense in terms of total yardage in football. You're complaining about pass protection for a team that finished 4th in total passing yards.

It's funny...for years when the team couldn't move the ball it was always the OL's fault. Now they're moving the ball about as well as any team in the league, but they're still not given credit.

MadMax

02-25-2009, 11:17 AM

Our OLine must be doing something right when it gives up less sacks than Baltimore, Minnesota, New England, and Pittsburgh...all teams that are known for being monsters in the trenches.

THIS IS PARTICULARLY SO WHEN THE CRITICISM IS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT PASS PROTECTION AND GIVING UP SACKS.

rezdawg

02-25-2009, 11:18 AM

How about this stat? Points per game. How well did the team do? 3rd in overall yards should equate to about the same rank in points per game, right?

How about this stat...we were 10th in the NFL in 3rd down conversions and 8th in the NFL in 4th down conversions. Arent these the real "stats" that show off your offensive line? Yes.

Ahh, but the offense struggled in the Red Zone. Who to blame? The offense puts up great run/pass stats, yet failed to deliver in the Red Zone, where it really counts. Who to blame?

You're going to throw the blame all towards the OLine? How about not having a bruising running back? How about poor play calling? How about lack of execution from the skill positions?

Here is another stat? win-loss record.

Uhhh, win-loss record is now tied to how good your OLine is? That would be like ranking the best pitchers in baseball by their win-loss records.

Wakko67

02-25-2009, 11:19 AM

Here is another stat? win-loss record.

You know, the defense did have something to do with that. I know that sounds crazy.

What happened when we played well on D? We went 5-1. Coincedence?

Yes, we should do better in the red zone, but I honesty feel that will come as Schaub develops.

Oh and a team wins and loses games. Rarely do I put a loss on one player in football. Sage lost the Indy game for us. Not just lost it, gave it away.

My imagination has come up with the ultimate choker, if there were such a thing. The dreaded fiend would be named Rex Romo Rosenfels.

Cannonball

02-25-2009, 11:24 AM

Ahh, but the offense struggled in the Red Zone. Who to blame? The offense puts up great run/pass stats, yet failed to deliver in the Red Zone, where it really counts. Who to blame?

Dude, we threw a ton of picks in the red zone last year. Also, after Green went down, we were left with a small Slaton who's not built to pick up goal line yards. Is there anything else you want to pin on the OL? I know it's been a constant chant since day one but that doesn't mean you have to keep using it.

No Worries

02-25-2009, 12:17 PM

Oh and a team wins and loses games. Rarely do I put a loss on one player in football. Sage lost the Indy game for us. Not just lost it, gave it away.
Sage as a starter was 2-3 last year and 6-4 the last two years. Yet you want to hang him for not being 7-3. I hate to find out what you think of Schaub.

The Cat

02-25-2009, 12:26 PM

Sage as a starter was 2-3 last year and 6-4 the last two years. Yet you want to hang him for not being 7-3. I hate to find out what you think of Schaub.

Read the first part of his statement -- teams win and lose games, with the exception of incredible, once-in-a-generation type exceptions. The Indianapolis game, by almost everyone who watched it, was one of those games.

The Cat

02-25-2009, 12:28 PM

a two year in a row fluke

edit: for a guy who's only started two years

Flukes can happen twice, and do with regularity, especially when viciously illegal and flagrant hits take place. I can't find the statistic offhand, but the NFL has only given out 5-10 maximum fine penalities on defenders the last couple of years. Two of them have been against defenders hitting Matt Schaub. That's a little disproportionate and flukish, to say the least.

Raven Lunatic

02-25-2009, 12:50 PM

I find it interesting that Minnesota would want a guy like Sage at all. When you have a team that has good defense and a solid to great running game, you want a QB that manages the game and minimizes mistakes. Sage is the opposite of that guy. He has talent but makes too many turnovers and takes too many silly chances. I hope he does well because I always wished best for him and outside of his performance on the field at times I never had any issues with the guy...but I think Minny regrets this trade in the end.

pgabriel

02-25-2009, 12:55 PM

Flukes can happen twice, and do with regularity, especially when viciously illegal and flagrant hits take place. I can't find the statistic offhand, but the NFL has only given out 5-10 maximum fine penalities on defenders the last couple of years. Two of them have been against defenders hitting Matt Schaub. That's a little disproportionate and flukish, to say the least.

haynesworth's hit was a helmet to helmet, but that wasn't the injury that left schaub out the rest of that season

I won't argue about jared allen's hit, but I wouldn't call hits on qbs flukes

msn

02-25-2009, 02:07 PM

That is a load of crap.

If the team wins, its a team win.

If the team loses, its all of Sage's fault.
You gotta be freaking kidding me. That one loss where the potential game-winning drive he threw a red-zone pick, I'll give you as a team loss. Obviously all the others were team losses.

But if you expect me to believe anyone not named Sage Rosenfels is responsible for the Indy loss, THAT "is a load of crap."

It's extremely rare--EXTREMELY rare--for one player to win or lose a game single-handedly. (I'm always screaming about teams winning or losing games!)

But in this case, Sage pulled it off. He lost the damn game all by himself. A historic, epic meltdown. As if Houston needed any more of those.

msn

02-25-2009, 02:09 PM

And before I get piled on too deep here by Sage's greatest fans, yes I far overreacted to that loss, and no, Rosenfumble isn't nearly as bad as that one loss.

I wish him the best. Nice guy.

But for a 4th round pick? Sign me up! 'Bye, Rosengone!!

Ric

02-25-2009, 02:49 PM

haynesworth's hit was a helmet to helmet, but that wasn't the injury that left schaub out the rest of that season
true; it did knock him out of the game, though.

i tend to agree - QBs are often hit late, etc. - it's a dangerous byproduct of the position. and haynesworth's hit, which separated schaub's shoulder, was legal and not a fluke.

but florence's hit (which cost schaub a game and a half) and allen's two hits (costing him another 4.5) were both illegal and the two players were fined appropriately. florence's hit, specifically, was plain dirty. i'd call both fluke-ish, certainly. he's not getting hurt in the normal, expected - legal - flow of the game.

it's not a significant distinction; but i think it's definitely worth noting.

Ric

02-25-2009, 02:57 PM

i'm with The Cat, btw. it's natural to be concerned about our back-up QB given schaub's history (not overly concerned: i heard a caller yesterday on paillio's show call it the worst move in franchise history), and even moreso because rosenfels was an above-average back-up QB. but, frankly - if your back-up is expected to see significant playing time... well, you could certainly upgrade over rosenfels, who tends to get exposed with more, well - exposure.

put it this way: would you deal rosenfels for owen daniels? daniels was a 4th round pick. obviously, there's no guarantee you'll pick another daniels. but looking at the players the texans have grabbed in the 4th round throughout their history (domanick davis, jerome mathis, daniels, fred bennett, xavier adibi - even glenn earl), they've found good to very good talent in that round. i think rosenfels is worth gambling that you can add another starter to your team.

Wakko67

02-25-2009, 03:03 PM

Sage as a starter was 2-3 last year and 6-4 the last two years. Yet you want to hang him for not being 7-3. I hate to find out what you think of Schaub.

I'm fine with his record. Thats not the issue. I do like him as a back up, but he turns it over way too much. Everyone talked about our turnovers last year and while Matt wasn't without fault, most of it was Sage.

That Indy game is by far the worst loss this team has yet had. Thats what I'm saying. Three TOs? In five minutes? Bad spots too. That all him.

A fourth rounder is great considering we're losing him.

dskillz

02-25-2009, 03:06 PM

I have never had a problem with Sage, but I have to say he did lose the Indy game for us. Too many TOs in the fourth, thats on him.

That is Sage his entire career:

2008 Houston Texans TD- 6 INT- 10 FUM - 4
2007 Houston Texans TD- 15 INT- 12 FUM - 4
2006 Houston Texans TD- 3 INT- 1 FUM - 0
2005 Miami Dolphins TD- 4 INT- 3 FUM - 1
2004 Miami Dolphins TD- 1 INT- 3 FUM - 2
2003 Miami Dolphins TD- 1 INT- 0 FUM - 0
2002 Miami Dolphins TD- 0 INT- 0 FUM - 0

He thinks he is a better QB than he really is. He tries things Joe Montana wouldn't try.

Ron from the G

02-27-2009, 02:19 PM