Abortion

[Rocketman95]

I was just wondering what everyone's feelings are about this subject.

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www.swirve.com (http://www.swirve.com)
I think my whore is dead.

[TheFreak]

Only whiny bitches are for it. I'm not a whiny bitch.

[Timing]

Well this thread is off to an impressive start. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/cool.gif

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"You have to think optimistic. I think it's never over till it's over." - Clyde Drexler after losing at home to go down 3-1 to the Suns in '95

[haven]

Argh! This is one issue I don't really touch. I'm pro-choice (and not a whiny bitch ;P), but I don't think it's something you can really debate (something I've learned through experience).

Either you believe that life begins with conception, or you don't. You can't prove it either way. To me, it's like arguing about whether God is real. Sure, there are all these pseudo-scientific arguments eithre way, but they're really just rationalizations. Trying to convince yourself that there are reasons for how you feel.

I really feel all the other issues are subordinate. I mean, yeah, pregnancy can be HELL for teenage girls in strict families... but if it's murder, then that really doesn't matter in the end. Likewise, if human life begins at birth, then outlawing abortion just gives a lot of unnecessary pain.

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I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by haven (edited April 05, 2001).]

[Achebe]

Who cares? You can always dump the whiny bitch after you knock her up!

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[Timing]

lmao! Oh my goodness.... that one's going to leave a mark for sure.

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"You have to think optimistic. I think it's never over till it's over." - Clyde Drexler after losing at home to go down 3-1 to the Suns in '95

[jamma34]

great way to start off an otherwise touchy subject.

anyway, im 100% against it. abortion is murder. i dont see it as any different from ancient civilizations burying little baby girls for no reason.

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president of the sleepy floyd to hall of fame club.

http://www.it-is-truth.org

[Space Ghost]

Haven,

It's not that cut and dry. If its murder for me to kill another womans fetus, then its murder for her to kill it. No if, ands, or butts!
Agree on abortion if:
1) the mothers life is in (real) danger.
(blah blah you can say "how can you chose who lives or dies between the mother and the child", but if you or a buddy life was in danger, it's not murder for you to save youself)
2) The baby is going to be retarded or severely deformed
In the middle of abortion:
1) Incest

And Ali Cat, its not 'religious zealots', its about whether its 'murder' or not.
2) Rape (more against it)
Against abortion:
1) Birth Control


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Nice guys finish last ... and im surely not going to finish last!

[Pole]

I just can't understand why conservatives are against it....other than the whole religious thing.

I'm all for it. Not choice that is, but abortions.

The more the merrier. Not people that is, but abortions.

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stop posting my damn signature

[Band Geek Mobster]

I'm pro-adoption.

If you didn't want to have a kid, then you shouldn't have gotten pregnant.

Also you should at least serve the 9 month sentence that comes along with your "mistake".

I really like the tattoo idea rimbaud.

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[This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited April 05, 2001).]

[AhPook]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">blah blah you can say "how can you chose who lives or dies between the mother and the child", but if you or a buddy life was in danger, it's not murder for you to save youself</font>

If you do nothing and your buddy dies, it's not murder. But if you actually kill him, well, I think Assistant District Attorney Jack McCoy would have something to say about that. Better consult your lawyer before you find yourself in that situation.



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Brought to you by the letter M.

[The Voice of Reason]

Abortion is something that should ALWAYS be up to the mother to decide. the father should be involved in that decision too, and ususlly is.

This issue is not cut an dry however. I want to ask if any of you that are ALL for, or ALL against have ever had run ins with abotion in your lives?

I paid for an abotion once. it was not my kid, but this was during my freshman year in college. a girl had a wild night, and ended up at a frat house late. she apparently ended up having sex with a guy,but she didnt remember much. she had only been with 1 previous guy(serious boyfriend in HS 2+years) this incident in college happens the weekend after they broke up. so it turned out that the guy didnt use protection. she ended up pregnant. he denied ever knowing her(actually denied any responcibility) this girl woulf have had to drop out of school and she had big plans. she had little money, and I worked so I gave her $100 to help her out. near the end of freshman year she met a guy that she is now married to. he is the father of her 2 children. she works as a nurse at a mojor hospitol. this is a great family. they are great children. they would never of happened if she had to leave school to have her kid. that kid would have been without a father. she would have been reminded of her one mistake every day in her life. I support a womans right to choose.

I have also had a female friend (more like a sister) have a child with a man she once loved only to break up with him 8 mos after child birth. she totally lives off her parents and hates him because she is in that situation. he is the greatest guys ever. one of my best friends. he is now forced to pay 500/ month to support the child which she spends at the bars looking for a new man.

my bud John loves his daughter, but the thing here is that the daughter deserves a better life than this. a little girs shouldnt have her mother bad mouth the dad, than go out to bars and bring back strange men. this story in not an endorsement, nor denouncement of abortion, however I think their lives would have been better the last 2.5 years if they had gotten the abortion. I live their kid, but that is how I feel.

BIRTHCONTROLL is the way to go. everyone should be on birth controll (male+female) untill given a parenting license.

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Hanta-Force Paintball
www.hanta-force.com (http://www.hanta-force.com)

[TheFreak]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">my bud John loves his daughter, but the thing here is that the daughter deserves a better life than this.</font>

According to you, she deserves to be dead:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think their lives would have been better the last 2.5 years if they had gotten the abortion.</font>

[mrpaige]

Some points, Voice of Reason:

1. Adoption was an alternative in each of your cases mentioned. The decision wasn't necessarily only between having the baby and raising it or getting an abortion. Just thought I'd point that out, but I'm not trying to say that either of these women made the wrong choice in either having or not having an abortion. There was just a potential choice that wasn't mentioned in your stories.

and 2. In your second example, the parents act like jerks. And that happens even in cases where the child is wanted from the get-go. People break up, divorces happen. The fact that these parents can't act like adults doesn't mean that an abortion would've been the right decision.

My father's birth parents were idiots. They split up and got back together. They fought, etc., etc., etc. So my father was put up for adoption and raised by an older couple who were great to him. He's now a successful physician who has served his country (in the Air Force), saved lives, shared his expertise with the less fortunate (he has participated in trips to Belarus to perform medical procedures and to teach local health care providers) and produced four children of his own. His early childhood wasn't pretty, but I could never say that he would've been better off being aborted.

There are all sorts of people who can and do contribute great things to our society who grew up under less-than-optimal circumstances. This child in the second example doesn't even appear to have it so bad. If having a slightly uncomfortable childhood means that you'd be better off having been aborted, there wouldn't be too many people left to populate the world.

I just think that being pro-choice means that we should respect a woman's decision to choose and respect the choice she does make. I don't want to second guess anyone's decision. And I would never say that a woman would've been better off by making a different decision that the one she made.

In the end, I don't care whether women have abortions or not. It's their business, not mine. I would just hope that every woman who considers an abortion does so carefully and thoughtfully before having or not having the procedure. And if a woman I was involved with got pregnant, I would hope she'd consult with me before having an abortion and at least take my opinion into consideration in her decision.

And for the record, I have been in a situation where abortion was an alternative. My girlfriend became pregnant when we were sixteen. We briefly discussed abortion as a potential option but dismissed it because it wasn't right for us. We had a wonderful son born that February (we had both turned 17 by the time he was born), and becomming a father was the best thing that could ever have happened to me. It gave me purpose and direction, and it made me far more responsible that I otherwise would have been. My older son is now 12, and I couldn't imagine a life without him.

So, in my situation not having an abortion was the right choice. But my experience is not universal. And past results are not noecessarily indicitive of future success.

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Houston Sports Board (http://www.houstonsportsboard.com)

[The Voice of Reason]

good response Mrpaige.

I ment to add adoption as well. unfortunately with adoption the mother feel guilty knowing their child is running around in someone elses house. not like an abotion dosnt make them think they couls have a kid runnig around instead of nothing.

after all is said and done Its not really about the child. there will be both great and terrible people raised in all circumstances. so the child will become great, or terrible almost nomatter what we do. My main concern is for the parents, or potential parents. in my first example, her having the abortion did not in any way limit her ability to have a special family, or raise an einstein or what have you. she has that, she is doing that. mainly she has had a better life than if she was "forced" by a little mistake to be a young mother. in the 2nd example my concern is for my 2 friends. they are both under extreme stress. both financial as well as emotional. their experiences as parents would have come eventually no matter what. I just would like to see my friends happy now, as well as happy later with their own families. unfortunately there is no time to be hapy now. they are both miserable. and they both have this child. it does not make it any easier for each of them to find a mate now. also since this woman has not even tried to be more mature as a mom, it does not bode well for the child. she smoked and drank during the entire pregnancy(which is partly why they broke up.-her cheating on him was the rest) she is living off other people she is not ready to be a mom. this does not mean that if she had the abortion, or gave up for adoption that she wont make a great mom in a few years. she is just too immature for that.

whatever, use birth controll

peace

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Hanta-Force Paintball
www.hanta-force.com (http://www.hanta-force.com)

[This message has been edited by The Voice of Reason (edited April 05, 2001).]

[Achebe]

vor, after trying to read your posts, I always love seeing that you actually edit your posts. lol!

p.s. abotions rule! hahaha http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

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[haven]

The problem with adoption as the definitive answer is that it's ultimately self-defeating.

As long as some abortions take place, it works as an alternative... but if EVERYONE gave up the children for adoption, instead of aborting them, there wouldn't be enough homes willing to take them in. Yes, there are lots of families willing to adopt... but there are far more abortions.

thefreak: that comment to Voice of Reason was inappropriate, I think. If you're going to respect other people, then part of that is acknowledging that our own moral rubrics aren't always right.

If you really believe abortion is murder... then fight against it. But don't use your own moral framework to judge everyone else. THat's not right.

You know, I take that back (edit)... I just read in the religion thread about the executing of women for adultery, and that offends the hell out of me.

Damn, it's a tough world http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/frown.gif.

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I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by haven (edited April 05, 2001).]

[TheFreak]

What is inappropriate about quoting someone directly? There was no opinion in my post. Let me know what was factually incorrect about anything I said. You're judging me now, all I did was repeat what he said.

[haven]

Errr... refer above. Your phrasing did your talking for you http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif. Vile distorter! jk

According to the pro-choice perspective, personhood is fundamentally a product of experience and post-natal existence. "She" didn't exist; therefore, she couldn't have been dead.

In fact, the neurons in the brain don't connect until the 7th-8th month, which is when I think abortion is valid until.


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I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by haven (edited April 05, 2001).]

[JayZ750]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Voice of Reason:
near the end of freshman year she met a guy that she is now married to. he is the father of her 2 children. she works as a nurse at a mojor hospitol. this is a great family. they are great children. they would never of happened if she had to leave school to have her kid. that kid would have been without a father. she would have been reminded of her one mistake every day in her life. I support a womans right to choose.
</font>
Hypothetical:
Lets say she had a miscarriage with one of her children presently. I bet she would have been extremely broken hearted then. She probably would have felt like she lost a life and that here child died. How do you reconcile the dissapointment of a miscarriage when you want the child with the acceptance of the abortion when you dont want the child?

Just curious. I dont like abortions but am nonetheless pro-choice.


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[TheFreak]

She is alive now. He is saying things would be better if she was not. It's really not as hard as you're making it out to be.

I've read a lot of strange things on this board, but your last sentence flat-out scares me--and I don't throw words around like that loosely.

[haven]

Abortion is a tough issue for me because I'm not religious, but there's still something about it that makes me uncomfortable in my gut. I mean, how DOES one know when someone's a person? So I've tried to find a scientific answer to the problem. That seems to be the best one I've found.

Listen, I respect your opinion on this board a great deal. I don't want to get in some slugfest over an issue that's so inflammatory and unresolvable. This is why I noramlly try to keep quiet.

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I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[Achebe]

rm95, I know that you were just trying to be a dork when you started this thread (not that you have to try too hard), but did the episode of Bush last night cause this?

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[mrpaige]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by haven:
The problem with adoption as the definitive answer is that it's ultimately self-defeating.</font>

When I spoke of adoptions, I didn't say they were the definitive answer, I said adoption was an option for those people that VOR mentioned. I just didn't like the black and white phrasing of his post (that the choice was keeping the baby or abortion). But he wasn't trying to say that anyway. It was just the implication I got from reading it.

As we've noted in other threads, there are plenty of children available for adoption who don't have a family to go to. Many of them are children who were taken from their homes later in life (making them harder to place since most adoptive parents tend to want newborns or near-newborns) or they have health problems, or whatever. I wouldn't contend that adoption is the be-all-end-all solution to the question of abortion. I merely state that is an option that should probably be considered by people in many situations. Adoption can be a very beneficial alternative to some. But it isn't right for everyone.

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Houston Sports Board (http://www.houstonsportsboard.com)

[The Voice of Reason]

freak, since the inception of this thread you have made inflamatory comments. dont try to turnnit around on haven now. I will however my own defense of what I wrote for a bit.
you post that i want this baby gorl dead. not even true. if i wanted her dead, i could snap her neck next time I hold her. that is an assinine assumption. I just think they would have been better off if she was never born. if she was aborted, she would have never been alive therefore she could never die.

I feel that abortion after the synapses connest is murder. before that it si nasty and immoral. but 1st trimester is all good. even 2nd trimester is ok, but not encouraged. 3rd trimenster is scary, so dont do it.

If you are gonna continue to make inflamatory comments you will only serve to make this thread a falme war on opinions that will never meet in the middle. aftetr all I DO understand why pro lifers are against abortion, however pro lifers rarely can see the valididty of pro choice arguments.


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Hanta-Force Paintball
www.hanta-force.com (http://www.hanta-force.com)

[Hydra]

I am glad that I was not aborted, I would venture to guess that most of you are too.

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Hike up your skirt a little more, and show the world to me.

[TheFreak]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">you post that i want this baby gorl dead. not even true.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I just think they would have been better off if she was never born. </font>

haven, do you feel a little silly now about what you said to me earlier? Cmon.

Voice of Treason -- never mind, it's not worth it.

[RichRocket]

If you're going to kill it, you'd better be sure it's NOT an innocent human being. Can you be? Ever? At any single moment?

Who is going to speak for the child?

All your contortive thinking is just self-justification to find an easy way out of a tough situation for those (usually) responsible.

I think there are some isolated cases where an abortion is justifiable when considered by the parents and an attending medical professional, but offing a life because the time is not right in your life is simply horrible.

We have a two- to three-month old wriggler in the oven right now. There's no way it comes out anything other than a HUMAN CHILD.

How can you be so foolish to even argue that? From the moment of conception it had the HUMAN genome (sp?).

The argument only exists out of desperation and I can't wait until the day when it is hushed out of existence.



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Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
PowerbizOnline.com

[Timing]

Can we expect a gun control thread for tomorrow? Anyone... Bueller?

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"You have to think optimistic. I think it's never over till it's over." - Clyde Drexler after losing at home to go down 3-1 to the Suns in '95

[The Voice of Reason]

Freak, do you think you are better than me?? are you too good to answer?? i think not. either this is a flame war, or this is a debate. a debate over debateable issues. not the crap that has been coming around so far.
I am pro choice, However I will never endorse it. I will support a woman throught it if she chooses to abort.
It would be wrong of ME to assume that abortion is right for someone I do not know. Just like YOU cannot tell me it is wrong for someone you do not know. I shared 2 stories one supporting the womans right to choose how her life will turn out. also i gave an exaple that showed that there is some grey area. I am happy that little girl exists. she is adorable and will grow up to be a good kid. but if she was aborted, the parents would be leading happier lives right now, and they could each have beutifull special children in the future. honestly it dosnt matter to me. either way i get called uncle micah. I just belive they would have been better off. also their future children would be better off.

I accept your views. do you accept mine?? am i a barbarian?? a monster?? not worth comment??


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Hanta-Force Paintball
www.hanta-force.com (http://www.hanta-force.com)

[dylan]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Voice of Reason:
I am pro choice, However I will never endorse it. I will support a woman throught it if she chooses to abort. </font>

Not that I really want to get in the arguement, but paying for a woman's abortion is de facto endorsing it. Surely you can see that?



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[rimbaud]

I think that there really are not enough abortion threads. I wish that every day someone would start a new one. then, all of the same characters can join in with the exact same arguments...no, better yet...everyone would have ot change their arguments/stance.

Today I will say that I only approve of abortions AFTer 8 months. That way, the irresponsible woman can feel the pain of childbirth for 8 months without getting the payoff of a lovechild.

Then, the mother has to get a tattoo on her forehead that says, "I once had a baby but the stork took it away because I was baaaaad. For 25 cents I will go into labor right in front of you."

That would learn her!

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Whitey will pay.

[Ali Cat]

Abortion is the woman's choice. along with the guy that knocked her up. not religious zealots.

Oh yes, I like being confrontational, but that is a different thread... http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Poopy!
And, yes, I have a boyfriend.
Five papers and counting! wahoo!

[This message has been edited by Ali Cat (edited April 05, 2001).]

[Smokey]

I just wrote a 13 page research paper on partial-birth abortions for my gov class at UT. I don't have time right now, but in the morning I'll share my thoughts http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

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[Gascon]

Thank goodness,


We almost went ten minutes without a discussion on abortion. I was beginning to get worried. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

There is another which states that this has already happened."


Douglas Adams

[RichRocket]

Hey, you pro-Choice advocates, should you be able to terminate the life of your 4 minute- or 4-week, 4-month, or 4-year-old because you are tired of being a parent or some circumstance in your life has changed that makes it inopportune to be a parent at this juncture of your life?

What's the big deal about which end of the birth canal the fatal blows are struck?

Granted doing the dirty deed pre-birth makes it SEEM less real and so less horrifying and evermore justifiable but still delusional.

And no, pro-Lifers are not obligated to respect your opinion. We are only oblilgated to respect your RIGHT to have an opinion. I don't even ask you to respect my opinion.

Just respect the innocent human life that sleeps, laughs, smiles, kicks, sucks thumb and hiccups LONG BEFORE exiting the birth canal.

Is that really too much to ask?

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Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
PowerbizOnline.com

[TheFreak]

VOR -- no, I'm not better than you or too good to answer. Sorry. One thing though--I can absolutely say it's wrong for someone I don't know. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean I can't say it's wrong.

[bobrek]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Voice of Reason:
...but if she was aborted, the parents would be leading happier lives right now, and they could each have beutifull special children in the future....
</font>

You don't know that the parents would be living happier lives. Perhaps they would be ruing the fact they aborted the child. They would certainly be living different lives, but I don't think anyone can say they would necessarily be happier. Perhaps they would be happier, but to assume that if they had aborted their child their lives would be happier is a bit absurd.

If the mother is spending the child support money unwisely, the father should go to court and work to get the custody issue changed. Maybe he could get custody or have the court appoint a 3rd party to monitor the money.

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[The Voice of Reason]

Dylan, by helping to pay for her abortion i was not endorsing, NO WAY. i was helping a person afford to do what she thought was best. she chose to abort. she shared that with me, i helped her afford it. if she had the child i would have given her money to help with the child as well. the fact is she couldnt have afforded the child let alone the abortion. my 100 saved her 100k

as i said earlier it all worked out for this girl, so i am quite happy with the results. if she had not come to me for help she may have gone to someone else, some butcher. or she may have given birth. regardless. she did well by herself, and i was just there to support.

bobrek, you are correct i do not KNOW that they would be living happier lives. I am quite certain however. i have to remind you that i have known the girl literally my whole life. our families have been cluse for 3 generations. the father i met 6 years ago, and is one of my best friends. please trust me when i say they would be happier. I should also add that she could not gen an abortion because of her families religon(very strict) both she and him wanted to abort, but she would have been disowned..and ostracised.
the kid is ok, because they live in the same town, so he has her 2 days a week, and sees her almost every day (day care pick up type stuff) so there is no need for legal action, well at least not yet.

to you posters that are un accepting of my views, or accepting of my right to those views i suppose i could show you an equal amount od disrespect. if this thread is to be of any substance. any substance other than opinion stating, and bashing, than we need to accept where other people are coming from. to debate the debatable. I dont think abortion is murder, you do. fine no argument from me, but i at least respect your opinion. please respect mine. if you do not, than fine, live in your cave be closed minded, and gain nothing. I gain from every thread on this bbs. well every intelligent thread anyway.

peace

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Hanta-Force Paintball
www.hanta-force.com (http://www.hanta-force.com)

[Space Ghost]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Voice of Reason:

my 100 saved her 100k
</font>

I bet if that 'fetus' survived till its 20th birthday, it would put a little bit higher value on its life than 100k.


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Panties not best thing on Earth ... but next to it.

[The Voice of Reason]

this is becoming redicula moose

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Hanta-Force Paintball
www.hanta-force.com (http://www.hanta-force.com)

[rimbaud]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Space Ghost:
I bet if that 'fetus' survived till its 20th birthday, it would put a little bit higher value on its life than 100k.


</font>

If a fetus was 20 years old, it would be worth millions from the National Enquirer alone!

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Whitey will pay.

[RocketsPimp]

Pro-Choice.

If it isn't your body, you should mind your own damn business.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

[Smokey]

Attorney General John Ashcroft

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[RichRocket]

haven: I uttered not ONE relgious word about all of this, so you'll have to find some other argument to dismiss me.

Just don't kill the innocent children. The same argument you want to extend to the mother I want to extend to the child. Would that not be fair?

Are you generally in favor of the right to kill? Are you 100% absolutely sure that little creature is NOT HUMAN?

I will insist that you prove that because you are de facto authorizing a death sentence on what may be (and I think is) a human life. I have simply said that with such high stakes (a life), the onus is on YOU to prove it's NOT a human life rather than the onus being on me to prove it is. I'm causing no death. How can you argue against that?

If you are going to DEFY LOGIC AND COMMON DECENCY, you'd better damn well have a f'kin good reason. Is that religious enough for you!!!!

Can you name one fetus carried to term that came out any way other than human? We're waiting.

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Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
PowerbizOnline.com

[heypartner]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheFreak:
What is inappropriate about quoting someone directly? There was no opinion in my post. Let me know what was factually incorrect about anything I said. You're judging me now, all I did was repeat what he said. </font>


Yep see. TheFreak has no opinion. He is a parodistic parrot looking for words to sarcastically repeat.

[RichRocket]

"If it's not your own body, mind your own business" is what the child says.

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Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
PowerbizOnline.com

[haven]

Richrocket:

I'm not going to question the sincerity of your beliefs, so please don't doubt my own. I'm a humanist, and I believe in freedom, and in preventing religion from interfering with the state. All of those beliefs determine my pro-choice stance.

Your assumption that someday all of us will "see the light" is also a bit annoying. Most of the world has actually already resolved the issue of abortion - in favor of a pro-choice perspective. In Europe and East Asia, abortion is accepted. Even in the United States, which is currently in the middle of a religious revival, pro-choice levels haven't dipped below the magic # of 50%.

I would suspect that Islamic states probably frown on abortion, although I'm hardly an expert in that area.

TheFreak: One last thing... I'm glad moral issues are simple for you. I truly wish they were for me as well. But because I can't really believe in a "one true God," they aren't. Perhaps you're right; I'm not an atheist by any means. I'm just not sure.

Until I am sure, I'm going to continue to try to painfully find the right answers in a personal way. I hope that my positions are justified, and if I offend, I'm sorry. But to me, it is all very complicated.

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I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by haven (edited April 06, 2001).]