Tmac and Yao - Slow and slower

[DaDakota]

Yesterday, NBA TV was playing the 2005 game 2 between the Mavs and Rockets. The Tmac dunk game.

And I was blown away by how quick and decisive both Yao and Tmac were only 3 years ago.

They were moving so well, and playing so hard, it made me wince in pain to watch the Mavs game last night.

I know both are coming off of injury, but if they aren't going to get back to this level, the team will not be going anywhere.

Yao, right now is just slower than Molasses, he is slow to rotate on D, slow to make a move on offense, and has no lift, just watching that Dallas series where he was getting up the floor and dunking with speed and agility (well for Yao) makes me sad. Is he done doing that? Have his injuries so severely limited him that he may never have that quickness again?

If not, then he needs to remake himself into a power player, and learn to hit that 15 footer at the top of the key, which frees up space to drive for our other players, and gives Yao a break from all the low post banging.

As for Tmac, man, it is hard for me to watch him, because he is clearly not right physi....no check that....mentally.

All this talk about his knee being a major issue is weird, because all he had was arthoscopic surgery, some loose bodies cleared out of the knee, the same surgery that Brandon Roy had in August.

Assuming the doctors are telling the truth, and with the Rocket's medical team you never know, then TMac is flat out being lazy. The impression I get from the writers, the announcers and the staff is that he needs to work through it and strengthen his knee? What? He has had 6 months to do that, why is the team waiting on that now?

I think Tmac hoped Artest would allow him to ease into the season, so he took it easy, and now is just out of shape. To me his left leg looks smaller and he is just not trying to test it.

If he is going to play 30 minutes than he needs to go HARD during those 30 minutes, do not pace himself....PLAY HARD....if he is not going to do that, then I suggest you sit him.

Tell him clearly he is hurt, and let him watch his teamates move on, build the team around the others, and then when he gets tired of sulking ease him back in.

Remember last year when he mentioned that the team was leaving him behind athletically, well.....do it again.

Tmac's problem is not his knee, it is above his shoulders. The team needs to move on.....and let him catch up.

DD

PS. I would leak a Tmac for Marbury trade rumor if I were Rockets brass....not do the trade, but make it seem like he is being shopped....hurt his pride a little....challenge him.

[rhadamanthus]

I was watching 05 and 06 clips last night - it was amazing how much better tmac was. Quicker, more accurate, and a lot more passionate.

I don't like the tmac hate on this board, but he does seem....off. Maybe it is a conditioning thing, but it's painful to watch.



I just agreed with DaDakota in the GARM. Yikes... ;) :p

[DaDakota]

Rhad,

I think Adelman is a great coach, but I actually think JVG got through to Tmac better.

Tmac has been too coddled, his entire life, and he needs some tough love, IMO.

The team should move on.....and make him catch up.

As for agreeing with me, well, most people eventually come around...

:D

DD

[Dkny_112]

I had no idea that you were a doctor. Its pretty evident to all that Tmac is severely limited by his left knee. Its obviously unstable and you don't need a medical degree to realize that. The very notion of you attributing this to a mental thing is beyond comprehension.

Do you really think that Tmac "believes" his knee hurts and doesn't go all out?

Tmac (as most superstars are) is arrogant and believes he is better than everybody else out there. You don't think he knows hes more talented than everyone else? What would make him think "oh... my knee hurts.... i'm just going to run around on the court like a gimp rather than play with explosion"...

and fyi... arthroscopy is merely a method of surgery. It speaks nothing of the extent of damage in a knee or any give joint. Comparing his injury to Brandon Roy is utterly pointless.

[GermanRoxFan]

dr. dadakota strikes again. t-mac is soft and lazy. we got that already. anything else that's new and worth a new thread? :rolleyes:

[jVgOwnsYou]

Yesterday, NBA TV was playing the 2005 game 2 between the Mavs and Rockets. The Tmac dunk game.

And I was blown away by how quick and decisive both Yao and Tmac were only 3 years ago.

They were moving so well, and playing so hard, it made me wince in pain to watch the Mavs game last night.

I know both are coming off of injury, but if they aren't going to get back to this level, the team will not be going anywhere.

Yao, right now is just slower than Molasses, he is slow to rotate on D, slow to make a move on offense, and has no lift, just watching that Dallas series where he was getting up the floor and dunking with speed and agility (well for Yao) makes me sad. Is he done doing that? Have his injuries so severely limited him that he may never have that quickness again?

If not, then he needs to remake himself into a power player, and learn to hit that 15 footer at the top of the key, which frees up space to drive for our other players, and gives Yao a break from all the low post banging.

As for Tmac, man, it is hard for me to watch him, because he is clearly not right physi....no check that....mentally.

All this talk about his knee being a major issue is weird, because all he had was arthoscopic surgery, some loose bodies cleared out of the knee, the same surgery that Brandon Roy had in August.

Assuming the doctors are telling the truth, and with the Rocket's medical team you never know, then TMac is flat out being lazy. The impression I get from the writers, the announcers and the staff is that he needs to work through it and strengthen his knee? What? He has had 6 months to do that, why is the team waiting on that now?

I think Tmac hoped Artest would allow him to ease into the season, so he took it easy, and now is just out of shape. To me his left leg looks smaller and he is just not trying to test it.

If he is going to play 30 minutes than he needs to go HARD during those 30 minutes, do not pace himself....PLAY HARD....if he is not going to do that, then I suggest you sit him.

Tell him clearly he is hurt, and let him watch his teamates move on, build the team around the others, and then when he gets tired of sulking ease him back in.

Remember last year when he mentioned that the team was leaving him behind athletically, well.....do it again.

Tmac's problem is not his knee, it is above his shoulders. The team needs to move on.....and let him catch up.

DD

DD I respect you as a poster, and what youre saying is perfectly valid.
That being said, I am really sick of coming on this board after every loss and reading posts like these of people blowing their wad.

If the team is still playing this way when everyone is healthy and in sync, then yeh, it may be time to start a thread like this. Right now, its early in the season, we're banged up, were trying to find ourselves, we're 7-5.....Is it really time to start all of the "man up" threads? You've been a fan for years. You have to know how Mcgrady is notoriously a slow starter and a strong finisher. He just came off of knee surgery. Give him some time before totally eating in to him. Its simply way too early for that.

Does he look slow? Hell yeh he does. but there were tons of games where he looked slow coming back from injury last season, and he somehow carried us to the number 4 seed without Yao Ming. Can he reach that level again? I don't know, but im willing to give him a chance. If the guy is saying he's playing injured, he's playing injured. Until you go out on the court and play on the professional level with a bum knee, you can not be the judge of whether or not his problem is physical or mental.

I'm frustrated with Mcgrady too, but he usually comes through when we need him the most. Have a little more faith.

[DaDakota]

DKNY,

I am not a doctor, but I had a similar surgery on my knee, so that is where my perspective is coming from.....and if you listen to what the coaches and the press are saying that he just needs to strengthen the knee, it will tell you all you need to know.

IMO (yes that is all this is) ....Tmac did not put in the rehab work and is struggling because of it, and he is not comfortable with his knee because it is his first surgery. I understand that, when Rick Adelman says "He just has to work through it" that speaks volumes.

Basically, you are asking a mentally weak guy to toughen up and work through it.

Tons of players work through it every day, but some take longer than others to gain that confidence.

Remember that TMac dunk attempt last night, it wasn't that he couldn't do it....it was that he didn't want to try.....it is a HUGE difference.

Tmac's issue is all in his head....and until he cuts loose and realizes that his knee is not going to fall off, he is going to struggle.

DD

[Solarlijian]

the injuries are killers of yao and tmac and their dream of 1st round!

[DaDakota]

I'm frustrated with Mcgrady too, but he usually comes through when we need him the most. Have a little more faith.
I hear ya JVG, but I don't see it like that last year....I saw the team move on without him and him looking around and going..."Hey...what about me?" then he came back strong.

I believe he has that in him again, but I think the team should move on without him until he DECIDES to come out and play hard.

He is playing slow out there to protect the knee, it is the classic case of a guy afraid of doing too much out of fear of re-injury.

I get that......and understand where he is coming from, but there are multiple ways to get him through it....one is to let him play and gain his confidence...which they are trying (which I think hurts the team as he does it) the other is to sit him when he plays cautiously, and reward him when he plays hard....that is what I would do.

Tmac is more than capable, he is just scared.

DD

[DaDakota]

JVG is talking about Tmac and his mentality on 1560 now......saying he thinks too much about what he used to be able to do, rather than what he is so good at now.

JVG thinks his mental state is the whole key.

Says he needs to be healthy and happy for this team to gel.

JVG and DD.....who would have thunk it?

DD

[Dkny_112]

I hear ya JVG, but I don't see it like that last year....I saw the team move on without him and him looking around and going..."Hey...what about me?" then he came back strong.

I believe he has that in him again, but I think the team should move on without him until he DECIDES to come out and play hard.

He is playing slow out there to protect the knee, it is the classic case of a guy afraid of doing too much out of fear of re-injury.

I get that......and understand where he is coming from, but there are multiple ways to get him through it....one is to let him play and gain his confidence...which they are trying (which I think hurts the team as he does it) the other is to sit him when he plays cautiously, and reward him when he plays hard....that is what I would do.

Tmac is more than capable, he is just scared.

DD

You know what?

We should just give him some damn cortisone injections into the joint and cut him loose. That way, when he blows out his knee (ala Grant Hills ankle), we can say he gave it all he had.

Do you know why Grant Hill's ankle was broken? Because he ignored the pain!

Pain is the bodies way of telling you to slow down.

But what the hell do i know?

[DaDakota]

You know what?

We should just give him some damn cortisone injections into the joint and cut him loose. That way, when he blows out his knee (ala Grant Hills ankle), we can say he gave it all he had.

Do you know why Grant Hill's ankle was broken? Because he ignored the pain!

Pain is the bodies way of telling you to slow down.

But what the hell do i know?

No one is saying that DKny,

But if you have followed TMac's career, he has always been an exaggerater, remember the cracked elbow comment just last year?

Come on, I don't doubt his skill just his mental toughness....which has been his question his entire career.

DD

[jVgOwnsYou]

I hear ya JVG, but I don't see it like that last year....I saw the team move on without him and him looking around and going..."Hey...what about me?" then he came back strong.

I believe he has that in him again, but I think the team should move on without him until he DECIDES to come out and play hard.

He is playing slow out there to protect the knee, it is the classic case of a guy afraid of doing too much out of fear of re-injury.

I get that......and understand where he is coming from, but there are multiple ways to get him through it....one is to let him play and gain his confidence...which they are trying (which I think hurts the team as he does it) the other is to sit him when he plays cautiously, and reward him when he plays hard....that is what I would do.

Tmac is more than capable, he is just scared.

DD

I think he's just hurt. Again, have you ever tried to play basketball on a professional level when your knee is bothering you? 30 minutes of chasing around elite athletes , jumping for rebounds, cutting and slashing to the basket, jumping, taking contact.

Its not like he's taking a walk in the park, or playing pick up against old college buddies.

[ClutchCityReturns]

If the team is still playing this way when everyone is healthy and in sync, then yeh, it may be time to start a thread like this.

I have a problem with this line of thinking because it assumes they're going to be healthy again at some point.

[DaDakota]

I think he's just hurt. Again, have you ever tried to play basketball on a professional level when your knee is bothering you? 30 minutes of chasing around elite athletes , jumping for rebounds, cutting and slashing to the basket, jumping, taking contact.

Its not like he's taking a walk in the park, or playing pick up against old college buddies.

Yes, I get that, but when I went to the Spurs game, the lack of effort was staggering.

NBA players do not play hard pretty much all game...until the last 10 minutes.

TMac included.

DD

[jVgOwnsYou]

No one is saying that DKny,

But if you have followed TMac's career, he has always been an exaggerater, remember the cracked elbow comment just last year?

Come on, I don't doubt his skill just his mental toughness....which has been his question his entire career.

DD

Maybe he overexxagerates because people are always going to call him scared every time he is saying he's injured.

He's the only guy who knowswhat he can and cant do. To pretend you know how he feels is just wrong.

[DaDakota]

Maybe he overexxagerates because people are always going to call him scared every time he is saying he's injured.

He's the only guy who knowswhat he can and cant do. To pretend you know how he feels is just wrong.


Everyone, doctors, coaches, announcers, everyone has said his knee is fine he just needs to strengthen it.

If he can't do that on the court, then sit him, put him into rehab and move on...that is the point.

DD

[jVgOwnsYou]

Yes, I get that, but when I went to the Spurs game, the lack of effort was staggering.

NBA players do not play hard pretty much all game...until the last 10 minutes.

TMac included.

DD

Maybe because they're world class athletes and they make it look so effortless when its really not....

[DaDakota]

Maybe because they're world class athletes and they make it look so effortless when its really not....

Uh, no......it is a lack of effort, you can tell the difference, come on, don't make excuses for them.

dr. dadakota strikes again. t-mac is soft and lazy. we got that already. anything else that's new and worth a new thread? :rolleyes:

Yeah, talking Rockets on a Rockets message board, that is OUTRAGEOUS..

:rolleyes:

I mean comparing players to where they were 3 years ago.....huh?


DD

[rhadamanthus]

I think Adelman is a great coach, but I actually think JVG got through to Tmac better.


I don't agree with that necessarily. I think JVG inherited a young Yao and a highly motivated and less injury-depleted tmac. That worked in his favor. JVG also ran a simplistic offense that really highlighted the Yao-tmac combo. Pick and rolls and post-ups. That was all there was to it.

Adelman has both injured and slowed versions of tmac and yao and a much more complex offensive set. The latter is not a good excuse (these are pro players, they should be able to figure out a play pretty quickly), except that adleman has had to deal with yao being out for extended periods and a neverending stream of new players and lineups. That's hard to "gel" in a complicated and strenuous offense.

If you want to be worried about something, I suggest our defense. It is, frankly, not good. For a team built like ours it should be the foundation - but its just not working.

[jump shooter]

DD, personally I am a huge huge T-Mac fan, but as of late I have come to the realization that he just dosn't have the mental makeup to ever win a championship much less get past the 1st round. He is one incredible talent physically even at his current age, but his lack of heart and mental toughness offsets that talent. Maybe after so many years of watching him as a rocket it's probably frustration on my part of finally thinking this way or maybe I'm finally being objective with myself when it comes to T-Mac. It might be time for Morey and Les to cut themselves (go a different direction) loose of T-Mac and move him for the best deal possible when the timing is right this season.

I think in Yao's case it will just take some time if he can stay healthy to get his legs underneath him. The big caveat is if he can stay healthy. Morey and Les need to get an athletic big man ie(shotblocker, rebounder) to help patrol paint and he needs to be taller than 6'8.

[Dkny_112]

No one is saying that DKny,

But if you have followed TMac's career, he has always been an exaggerater, remember the cracked elbow comment just last year?

Come on, I don't doubt his skill just his mental toughness....which has been his question his entire career.

DD

I'll agree with you that Tmac tends to embelish his injuries to a certain extent. But to say his current physical limitations are all due to his mental state is utterly insane.

Put this in perspective. Every year past 25, the cells in your body regenerate slower. For you and me, that might mean our metabolism slows down and we gain a bit of fat around the belly. It also means we recover slower (and incompletely) from our injuries.

Tmac will be likely to regain 85% of his mobility and strength in the next three months.

Like it or not, its going to be a long process.

[DaDakota]

If you want to be worried about something, I suggest our defense. It is, frankly, not good. For a team built like ours it should be the foundation - but its just not working.

Effort, or lack thereof.

When other players see their leaders slacking off it is going to permeate to the lesser players.

Scola and Artest are the only 2 I see hustling in the starting lineup each and every game....

DD

[DaDakota]

Tmac will be likely to regain 85% of his mobility and strength in the next three months.

Like it or not, its going to be a long process.

I agree with you, my point is that he should have already gotten that back, over the summer.

To take more than 6 months to recover from an arthoscopic surgery where they removed loose bodies is ridiculous.

It is not reconstructive surgery, it is a very small incision where they suck out loose bodies.....I have had the same surgery, and was in rehab a week later and playing basketball 2 weeks after that......and at about 10-12 weeks was 100% healthy...and confident in my knee.

Of course it could be that he has more extensive damage, but my guess, based upon all the Rockets doctors and everyone else is that it is all in his head.


DD

[Rockets Jones]

Rhad,

I think Adelman is a great coach, but I actually think JVG got through to Tmac better.

Tmac has been too coddled, his entire life, and he needs some tough love, IMO.

The team should move on.....and make him catch up.


DD

Totally agree, even though JVG wasn't exactly tough with T-mac either. Obviously T-mac is hurt, but the worst thing is he's hurting his team more by playing than by sitting out. Strange though that RA and T-mac fail to realize this, especially T-mac who said that if he is hurting the team, he will sit out but he feels he brings enough and the team needs him. RA too feels the same way which is rather disturbing. I understand RA is not a tough coach, a so called 'players coach' but everybody can see T-mac is coming short and hurting the team when he's out there. RA overall decision making is very questionable and he needs to take more charge of the team. Brent Barry is playing terrible as of late so why not give Wafer / Head his minutes, just play the people who are doing good and bench the ones that dont. It's not rocket science, so even though I agree partially with DD that it's mental and some1 needs to get through to T-mac, it is also physical and the lack of leadership by RA or another teammate to tell him straight up: you're hurting us out there. But I guess that's what the "All-Star" treatment is all about, you just do whatever you feel like doing on any given night and nobody holds you really responsible...except for the fans who're fed up.

[jVgOwnsYou]

Uh, no......it is a lack of effort, you can tell the difference, come on, don't make excuses for them.

DD

its not an excuse, i just think you're being a little arrogant thinking you know tmac better than he knows himself. He's playing hurt. For Tmac to stand up and take all of the criticism from the media, and to go out in front of everyone and plat the game at a high level. That alone makes him tougher than your average guy.

[DaDakota]

its not an excuse, i just think you're being a little arrogant thinking you know tmac better than he knows himself. He's playing hurt. For Tmac to stand up and take all of the criticism from the media, and to go out in front of everyone and plat the game at a high level. That alone makes him tougher than your average guy.

You are confusing 2 arguments, if he is hurt, fine sit him, because he is not playing at a high level.

But I can see the lack of effort by all the players, and you can too. Not just Tmac.

I sat less than 40 feet from the court, and was on the floor last year, there are some players who hustle all game....Scola etc....but for the most part, the players coast....a lot.

DD

[jVgOwnsYou]

You are confusing 2 arguments, if he is hurt, fine sit him, because he is not playing at a high level.

But I can see the lack of effort by all the players, and you can too. Not just Tmac.

I sat less than 40 feet from the court, and was on the floor last year, there are some players who hustle all game....Scola etc....but for the most part, the players coast....a lot.

DD

Honestly, role players should hustle. If Scola had to guard twos and had to beat his man off the dribble and run around screens all day he would probably "coast" as well.

[DaDakota]

Honestly, role players should hustle. If Scola had to guard twos and had to beat his man off the dribble and run around screens all day he would probably "coast" as well.

Tmac should not be asked to guard any SGs he just doesn't have it in him...let him guard the less mobile of the SF or SGs....but if he can't keep up, bench him.

That is my point.......if it is all in his head, or in his knee....sit him down......rehab him...because right now he is not helping, and you can see the lack of effort displayed by him start to go to the rest of the team.

We need Battier badly, he inspires...

DD

[GranvilleWaders]

I too watched some video from past years and it's not even close to the same TMac. It spurs a question for me...when Artest comes up for renewal next year..shouldn't we keep him and let TMac go? I'm afraid we might do the opposite.
Natural talent alone TMac wins hands down..but there is so much more. Tmac mental issues that DDakota is talking about is evident but even more so his physical problems are of the nature that will never just completely heal (Knee, Back).
Artest, while capable of bad performances as well, is a hustle guy. Last night he was off again but simply dominated the boards. It's as if he says "one way or the other I am going to be effective in this game".
IMO we have to see where this year goes but when the time comes keep Artest and leave TMac behind (and his huge salary) ..then we have tmacs salary to build around artest and yao.

[jVgOwnsYou]

Tmac should not be asked to guard any SGs he just doesn't have it in him...let him guard the less mobile of the SF or SGs....but if he can't keep up, bench him.

That is my point.......if it is all in his head, or in his knee....sit him down......rehab him...because right now he is not helping, and you can see the lack of effort displayed by him start to go to the rest of the team.

We need Battier badly, he inspires...

DD

Battier also stands in the corner on offense....I know what youre saying and I agree....Tmac right now is hurting the team. I think its because he's hurt, and you think its because he's mentally weak.

[DaDakota]

Battier also stands in the corner on offense....I know what youre saying and I agree....Tmac right now is hurting the team. I think its because he's hurt, and you think its because he's mentally weak.

No, I think he is mentally weak because he is.....mentally weak. Everywhere he has been people come to that conclusion, it is fairly obvious he is a great talent, but not a leader of men.

Battier stands in the corner but he moves the ball.....we need more ball movement in the first unit.

Tmac dominating the ball and protecting his knee by playing at a slower speed is not going to get it done.

His jumpshot has never been consistant, and he is relying on that too much...if he is not going to drive, and dish, then he needs to sit.

DD

[jump shooter]

I too watched some video from past years and it's not even close to the same TMac. It spurs a question for me...when Artest comes up for renewal next year..shouldn't we keep him and let TMac go? I'm afraid we might do the opposite.
Natural talent alone TMac wins hands down..but there is so much more. Tmac mental issues that DDakota is talking about is evident but even more so his physical problems are of the nature that will never just completely heal (Knee, Back).
Artest, while capable of bad performances as well, is a hustle guy. Last night he was off again but simply dominated the boards. It's as if he says "one way or the other I am going to be effective in this game".
IMO we have to see where this year goes but when the time comes keep Artest and leave TMac behind (and his huge salary) ..then we have tmacs salary to build around artest and yao.

I agree Granville, the skills that T-Mac may have lossed over the years, 98% of most NBA players never had them to begin with. He still has a very very high off the charts offensive skill set no matter what he or anybody else thinks. JVG is right in that T-Mac needs to forget about what he lossed and go with what he currently has. In game 6 of the Utah series last season (6 or 7 months ago), his knee and shoulder were both killing him and he came out and looked like a man amongst boys in that game, he threw caution to the wind (ala. Kobe) and just played up to what he was capable of playing to, he didn't feel sorry for himself or his team, he just went out and dominated. He just manned up. He can still do it. It's all in in head.

[CheezeyBoy22]

I was at the game last night and I was down by the court where the Rockets come out from. I was there to get autographs. I have a hat that I try to get the players to sign. I'm almost there with getting the players to sign it.

Well to get to my point, Artest came out with Elston Turner limping. The coach told him, "Are you sure you want to play?". Artest told him he needed more tape on his ankle and they both went back to the locker room. Not even 5 minutes later, he came out and signed my hat. He wasn't limping much and came out for shoot around.

I know T-Mac is no Artest, but T-Mac needs to play hard like Artest did. Artest had the worse injury out of all of them but he came to play. He knew Yao wasn't going to play so he did his best. I even saw Artest go to him during a TV break and tell T-Mac something. When the game picked up after that timeout, T-mac came back into the game.

[michecon]

You change your mind
Like a girl changes clothes
Yeah, you pee a mess like a bitch
I would know

And you always think
Always speak cryptically
I should know
That you're no good for me

'Cause you're hot then you're cold
You're yes then you're no
You're in and you're out
You're up and you're down
You're wrong when it's right
It's black and it's white
We fight, we break up
We kiss, we make up

____________________________

That's for you DaDakota.

[jase66]

It's obvious T-Mac is not there mentally..you can see it, or maybe it's just me.


If you look at his facial expression from last nights game, he seem weak and hurted.

When you're fighting opponent, you never show them you're scare or hurt.

They should really just shut him down. His lack of energy is very negative for rest the team.

It goes like this, either you play or you don't. If you're out in the court, play like you want to win. And if not, just rest, let the other guys handle it, because then other guy would atleast try.

[rhadamanthus]

In game 6 of the Utah series last season (6 or 7 months ago), his knee and shoulder were both killing him and he came out and looked like a man amongst boys in that game, he threw caution to the wind (ala. Kobe) and just played up to what he was capable of playing to, he didn't feel sorry for himself or his team, he just went out and dominated. He just manned up. He can still do it. It's all in in head.

This is a damn good point.

Take control tmac. Just play.

[jVgOwnsYou]

It's obvious T-Mac is not there mentally..you can see it, or maybe it's just me.


If you look at his facial expression from last nights game, he seem weak and hurted.

When you're fighting opponent, you never show them you're scare or hurt.

They should really just shut him down. His lack of energy is very negative for rest the team.

It goes like this, either you play or you don't. If you're out in the court, play like you want to win. And if not, just rest, let the other guys handle it, because then other guy would atleast try.

Here we go with the whole body language thing. Didn't everyone say that Eli Manning was doomed because of poor body language....Bottom line is win. When his tema starting winning all of a sudden his body language "has drastically improved"...its all bs. Just win.

The team lost yesterday's game. In part because of Tmac, but mainly due to the absence of Yao Ming. Yao will be back soon and we will start winning again. Then maybe we wont have these posts about body language contributing to our losses.

[<3myrockets]

i totally agree with DD on this. playing football and wrestling in high school, 70% of winning is your mental attitude. you can have all the talent in the world, but whether you think you can or can't you're right.

i don't believe tmac is

[<3myrockets]

oops accidentally posted...i don't think tmac is as hurt as he looks or for me "sounds." he still has the ability to rock shop on plenty of the teams it's just a matter of will power.

i.e. look at the lakers. you can say they have a younger team, but look at how kobe fights all night every night. everyone feeds off the best.

[emjohn]

In the end, it's all the same. Whether it's:
T-Mac is hurt
T-Mac is mentally soft
T-Mac is lazy
T-Mac is holding back to avoid further injury
T-Mac didn't put in appropriate effort into his rehab this summer
T-Mac is facing phenomenal defenses
T-Mac is unhappy with the team or coaching staff
Some combination of the above

....whatever it is, the result is plain. McGrady isn't doing what we need him to do to make the offense go.

For those saying it's all injury, be honest: do you really think he's going to heal up, be nagging injury-free, and play like he did in Orlando again?

I do not care one bit what the source of the issue is, as a fan that can not fix whatever that is. I do care that the coaching staff is putting him, and thereby the team, in the position to fail by throwing him out there as our primary playmaker every single night.

You can't have your offense feed off a star that gives you:
2
3
27
7
18
8
16
going from night to night. It's absurd. Send more plays to Artest and Scola, and let McGrady be a bonus X-factor. If he's feeling great - fantastic, rack up the points. If he comes out gimpy/disinterested/flat....sit him on the bench and tell him you want to unleash him for a single hard core burst in the 3rd or 4th quarter.

Don't waste offensive possessions on his perimeter tip-toe dance and contested 23 footers. Don't give up bucket after bucket with his stand up, shuffle foot defense.

It doesn't matter if it's "he can't" play hard or if it's "he won't" play hard. If he isn't going to play hard, reduce his role on the team.

Evan

[rhadamanthus]

If he's feeling great - fantastic, rack up the points. If he comes out gimpy/disinterested/flat....sit him on the bench and tell him you want to unleash him for a single hard core burst in the 3rd or 4th quarter.


Seconded.

[Rockets Jones]

In the end, it's all the same. Whether it's:
T-Mac is hurt
T-Mac is mentally soft
T-Mac is lazy
T-Mac is holding back to avoid further injury
T-Mac didn't put in appropriate effort into his rehab this summer
T-Mac is facing phenomenal defenses
T-Mac is unhappy with the team or coaching staff
Some combination of the above

....whatever it is, the result is plain. McGrady isn't doing what we need him to do to make the offense go.

For those saying it's all injury, be honest: do you really think he's going to heal up, be nagging injury-free, and play like he did in Orlando again?

I do not care one bit what the source of the issue is, as a fan that can not fix whatever that is. I do care that the coaching staff is putting him, and thereby the team, in the position to fail by throwing him out there as our primary playmaker every single night.

You can't have your offense feed off a star that gives you:
2
3
27
7
18
8
16
going from night to night. It's absurd. Send more plays to Artest and Scola, and let McGrady be a bonus X-factor. If he's feeling great - fantastic, rack up the points. If he comes out gimpy/disinterested/flat....sit him on the bench and tell him you want to unleash him for a single hard core burst in the 3rd or 4th quarter.

Don't waste offensive possessions on his perimeter tip-toe dance and contested 23 footers. Don't give up bucket after bucket with his stand up, shuffle foot defense.

It doesn't matter if it's "he can't" play hard or if it's "he won't" play hard. If he isn't going to play hard, reduce his role on the team.

Evan

Yup, but it's funny he still gets double-teamed, no matter how bad he plays. The coaching staff just need to sit him down for the next game, see how it goes. The Wizards are playing terrible so we should beat them easily without T-mac.

[thacabbage]

Dakota - Your "Dumb and Dumber" cerca 7 years ago had a better ring to it.

[Shaud]

Yup, but it's funny he still gets double-teamed, no matter how bad he plays. The coaching staff just need to sit him down for the next game, see how it goes. The Wizards are playing terrible so we should beat them easily without T-mac.
So were the Spurs but they beat us. If any one of our main 3 is out we will struggle to win or lose.

[KingCheetah]

It is not reconstructive surgery, it is a very small incision where they suck out loose bodies.....I have had the same surgery, and was in rehab a week later and playing basketball 2 weeks after that......and at about 10-12 weeks was 100% healthy...and confident in my knee.


Every time you tell this story the rehab/ 100% healthy time period seems to get a little shorter. How long was it before you threw down your first tomahawk dunk ?

[tinman]

JVG is talking about Tmac and his mentality on 1560 now......saying he thinks too much about what he used to be able to do, rather than what he is so good at now.

JVG thinks his mental state is the whole key.

Says he needs to be healthy and happy for this team to gel.

JVG and DD.....who would have thunk it?

DD

Sounds like his brain is in Disneyworld.

[pmac]

Every time you tell this story the rehab/ 100% healthy time period seems to get a little shorter. How long was it before you threw down your first tomahawk dunk ?

you didn't know?

Dadakota > Tracy Mcgrady

[nolimitnp]

You are confusing 2 arguments, if he is hurt, fine sit him, because he is not playing at a high level.

But I can see the lack of effort by all the players, and you can too. Not just Tmac.

I sat less than 40 feet from the court, and was on the floor last year, there are some players who hustle all game....Scola etc....but for the most part, the players coast....a lot.

DD

Well, to be fair, the final period of a basketball game means more than any other sport. Lebron James calls it the "winning quarter".

[nolimitnp]

By that I mean, as long as there is hustle and going all out in the 4th quarter, I could care less what happens in the first 3.

[abc2007]

You know what, if Yao and Tmac play well, Adelman will let them on the court more than 40 minutes. Somehow, their inconsistency is a good thing for them. They can play less minutes.

[Blake]

Let's see...why could this be? Hmmm....

perhaps it's due to the fact that one still hasn't recovered from offseason KNEE surgery and one is coming off of FOOT surgery. Clearly neither is 100%.

If this was any other player besides TMac, we would be talking about how obvious it was that the player playing is still injured and playing through it.

But because TMac can be a drama queen, people just decide that his knee is fine and he's okay and being a baby.

DD, have you been watching the games? (I am assuming "yes"). It's obvious that he is limping and favoring the knee. Adelman even commented on it regarding his getting around screens. If this was anyone other than TMac (who is obviously not Kobe or DWade when it comes to toughness), you wouldn't be saying that he wasn't playing hard. I disagree and think it's clearly obvious that he looks injured on the court.

Weren't you one of the ones saying that he was faking it last season as well? Two surgeries later... :rolleyes:

[tinman]

You know what, if Yao and Tmac play well, Adelman will let them on the court more than 40 minutes. Somehow, their inconsistency is a good thing for them. They can play less minutes.
and we can lose more games too

[RocketsHero]

We have to play both players strategically.

Have to limit Yao's minutes down to 33 minutes per game.

Limit Mcgrady to 30 minutes or rest him all together until he can convince himself that he is "healed"

[abc2007]

We all know that the most important thing is that they can be healthy in the playoffs. From what I saw so far these season, the rockets are clearly 2nd best team in the WC when we are healthy.

and we can lose more games too

[ShadyMcGrady]

In game 6 of the Utah series last season

That was the playoffs pre surgery. This is the early regular season post surgery. He's not going to go all out like that no matter what. Call it lack of effort or laziness or whatever you want but that's just not happening. It shouldn't.

If he injures himself in the playoffs and has to sit out 5 months, oh well we have the time. If he injures himself now going all out and has to sit out 5 months we are screwed.

I agree with DaDa, it's all in his head. However, I think his knee IS hurting him, and it is causing him to limp around. He could play up to level if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to. He's trying to shelter that knee while playing at the same time and anyone can see it's not really working out. Although he is driving in a little more, it's not enough to make his game efficient with the injury.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I don't mind incosistency or missed games from anyone on the team, including Yao or Ron, just as long as we make the playoffs and they are all healthy and ready to play when it gets here...and they perform. I'm sure no one was expecting T-Mac or Yao to be 82 game stars this season. I'd be happy to just get them both healthy for the playoffs.

Ron doesn't matter. Whether he's healthy or not he'll be out there because he's a wild animal according to JVG. :)

[Blake]

I agree with DaDa, it's all in his head. However, I think his knee IS hurting him, and it is causing him to limp around. He could play up to level if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to. He's trying to shelter that knee while playing at the same time and anyone can see it's not really working out. Although he is driving in a little more, it's not enough to make his game efficient with the injury.


See, I think this is total BS. The guy is hurt. It's obvious. If this was ANY other player we wouldn't be saying this (it's in his head)

people said that last season and he had TWO surgeries and the team admitted to finding knee damage.

The guy is a drama queen (perhaps an understatement), but watching him play on the court...his knee isn't 100% and it's EARLY in the season. Not the time to push it every night or it will give out before the playoffs.

[emjohn]

See, I think this is total BS. The guy is hurt. It's obvious. If this was ANY other player we wouldn't be saying this (it's in his head)

people said that last season and he had TWO surgeries and the team admitted to finding knee damage.

The guy is a drama queen (perhaps an understatement), but watching him play on the court...his knee isn't 100% and it's EARLY in the season. Not the time to push it every night or it will give out before the playoffs.
Fine - then sit him. Let him play 5 minutes a quarter.

[ShadyMcGrady]

See, I think this is total BS. The guy is hurt. It's obvious. If this was ANY other player we wouldn't be saying this (it's in his head)

people said that last season and he had TWO surgeries and the team admitted to finding knee damage.

The guy is a drama queen (perhaps an understatement), but watching him play on the court...his knee isn't 100% and it's EARLY in the season. Not the time to push it every night or it will give out before the playoffs.

Didn't I say his knee is hurting him?

Let me clarify my position: T-Mac can play up to superstar level even on his injured knee, that's how good he is. T-Mac doesn't WANT TO nor SHOULD HE be doing so in case he injures it further.

He's injured. Any argument on that front is pointless. It's also in his head. He's choosing not to play as hard as he can, and I have no problem with that as long as he's healthy for the playoffs. And i'm not holding McGrady to a double standard on that, I believe the same for all our players.

[Blake]

have you ever had a knee injury? :confused:

And I'm not some TMac homer...he pisses me off a lot as well, but I do think we go way overboard on the "it's only in his head" stuff

But he certainly doesn't help himself with his "back to square one, getting an MRI" comments.

[jump shooter]

That was the playoffs pre surgery. This is the early regular season post surgery. He's not going to go all out like that no matter what. Call it lack of effort or laziness or whatever you want but that's just not happening. It shouldn't.

If he injures himself in the playoffs and has to sit out 5 months, oh well we have the time. If he injures himself now going all out and has to sit out 5 months we are screwed.

I agree with DaDa, it's all in his head. However, I think his knee IS hurting him, and it is causing him to limp around. He could play up to level if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to. He's trying to shelter that knee while playing at the same time and anyone can see it's not really working out. Although he is driving in a little more, it's not enough to make his game efficient with the injury.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I don't mind incosistency or missed games from anyone on the team, including Yao or Ron, just as long as we make the playoffs and they are all healthy and ready to play when it gets here...and they perform. I'm sure no one was expecting T-Mac or Yao to be 82 game stars this season. I'd be happy to just get them both healthy for the playoffs.

Ron doesn't matter. Whether he's healthy or not he'll be out there because he's a wild animal according to JVG. :)

Then T-Mac needs to sit, if your not going to go all out in an NBA game post surgery, then you need to sit period. I have never seen Kobe of MJ not go all out injury or no injury. He is a liability to the team taking jumpshots and to the moral of the team as well. If you are incapable of going all out while hurt then you need to sit your ass down and get your injury healed or in T-Macs case head on straight. The rockets have literally millions of dollars on the line with T-Mac and it doesn't look as if they are too concerned about putting him out there and making him play. This is getting old.

[ShadyMcGrady]

have you ever had a knee injury? :confused:

And I'm not some TMac homer...he pisses me off a lot as well, but I do think we go way overboard on the "it's only in his head" stuff

But he certainly doesn't help himself with his "back to square one, getting an MRI" comments.

No i've never had a knee injury nor have I played professional level sports. All i'm saying is that T-Mac could play up to level. He doesn't want to. My point is that is not a bad thing.

I'm not saying it's only in his head. But you've got to tell me, after seeing 30 and 26 point performances, that he can't play up to level if it counts? That's a good thing, because I'm not worried about the playoffs, even if T-Mac is a little hobbled, I know he will play through it and play well.

[ShadyMcGrady]

Then T-Mac needs to sit, if your not going to go all out in an NBA game post surgery, then you need to sit period. I have never seen Kobe of MJ not go all out injury or no injury. He is a liability to the team taking jumpshots and to the moral of the team as well. If you are incapable of going all out while hurt then you need to sit your ass down and get your injury healed or in T-Macs case head on straight. The rockets have literally millions of dollars on the line with T-Mac and it doesn't look as if they are too concerned about putting him out there and making him play. This is getting old.

Fine. That's fine with me. I don't have anything against that. If he's making his injury any worse or leaving himself at any risk by playing through this state, then he should sit. But we don't have another option until Battier gets back.

Also, it's frustrating to see people give Ron a pass for hogging the ball and not moving it around while they blame McGrady for it. And people who give Yao a pass for not buying into Adelman's system but they blame McGrady for it.

T-Mac is not as big a liability as you think. He just shouldn't be guarding the Ray Allen's of the league for now.

[jump shooter]

Fine. That's fine with me. I don't have anything against that. If he's making his injury any worse or leaving himself at any risk by playing through this state, then he should sit. But we don't have another option until Battier gets back.

Also, it's frustrating to see people give Ron a pass for hogging the ball and not moving it around while they blame McGrady for it. And people who give Yao a pass for not buying into Adelman's system but they blame McGrady for it.

T-Mac is not as big a liability as you think. He just shouldn't be guarding the Ray Allen's of the league for now.

What I meant by liability is if he's not attacking the basket and settling for low % jumpshots then he becomes a monster liability. He is very low percentage jumpshooter. It looks to me as if Adelman is trying to let T-Mac find his way back from offseason arthroscopic surgery (thank the lord it wasn't a full blown ACL tear). Adelman must be as frustrated as the rest of us with T-Macs incredible performances against the Celtics and Blazers, then the half hearted effort against the rest of the teams.

[jVgOwnsYou]

No i've never had a knee injury nor have I played professional level sports. All i'm saying is that T-Mac could play up to level. He doesn't want to. My point is that is not a bad thing.

I'm not saying it's only in his head. But you've got to tell me, after seeing 30 and 26 point performances, that he can't play up to level if it counts? That's a good thing, because I'm not worried about the playoffs, even if T-Mac is a little hobbled, I know he will play through it and play well.

If you did have knee surgery you'd know that sometimes the joint has good days, and sometimes it has bad days. Tmac could go through a whole game and not worry about his knee, but it only takes one minor impact, or wrong landing to have it flare up again.

[Lady_Di]

PS. I would leak a Tmac for Marbury trade rumor if I were Rockets brass....not do the trade, but make it seem like he is being shopped....hurt his pride a little....challenge him.

I think that will backfire. He'll morph into his primadonna personality and sulk.

[northeastfan]

No, I think he is mentally weak because he is.....mentally weak. Everywhere he has been people come to that conclusion, it is fairly obvious he is a great talent, but not a leader of men.

Battier stands in the corner but he moves the ball.....we need more ball movement in the first unit.

Tmac dominating the ball and protecting his knee by playing at a slower speed is not going to get it done.

His jumpshot has never been consistant, and he is relying on that too much...if he is not going to drive, and dish, then he needs to sit.

DD

But he's a superstar, a former scoring champ, and a volume shooter. He is entitled to his his main play which is to wait (scream) for the ball about 18 feet away from the basket, hold the ball for 3-5 seconds, then shoot an off-balance fade away which goes in often enough (maybe about 20%) to help your personal points per game stats (that's all that counts, isn't it). How dare you question one of the most basic plays of NBA basketball?

[ShadyMcGrady]

If you did have knee surgery you'd know that sometimes the joint has good days, and sometimes it has bad days. Tmac could go through a whole game and not worry about his knee, but it only takes one minor impact, or wrong landing to have it flare up again.

Ok answer me this: Do you not think T-Mac could put up 30 even on one of those bad days for his knee? If he really trying? I mean if this was the playoffs?

I think the answer is yes. My point is, this is NOT the playoffs and he shoudln't be playing like it is.

That's all i'm trying to say. Nothing more.

[ShadyMcGrady]

What I meant by liability is if he's not attacking the basket and settling for low % jumpshots then he becomes a monster liability. He is very low percentage jumpshooter. It looks to me as if Adelman is trying to let T-Mac find his way back from offseason arthroscopic surgery (thank the lord it wasn't a full blown ACL tear). Adelman must be as frustrated as the rest of us with T-Macs incredible performances against the Celtics and Blazers, then the half hearted effort against the rest of the teams.

I agree he should attack the basket more. The last couple games, he has been. Not enough, but the effort to attack is there. Also, I don't think Adelman is as frustrated as we are because at the same time, the whole team is playing like that. Not just McGrady.

[jump shooter]

Ok answer me this: Do you not think T-Mac could put up 30 even on one of those bad days for his knee? If he really trying? I mean if this was the playoffs?

I think the answer is yes. My point is, this is NOT the playoffs and he shoudln't be playing like it is.

That's all i'm trying to say. Nothing more.

That answer may be the answer to why T-Mac can't get past the 1st round of the playoffs. You establish your playoff destiny now, look at how hard Boston played all last year and look at how intense and hard the Lakers are currently playing. Ron Artest was probably hurting much worse than T-Mac was last night and he played as if his life depended on it, his effort was all out.

[jVgOwnsYou]

Ok answer me this: Do you not think T-Mac could put up 30 even on one of those bad days for his knee? If he really trying? I mean if this was the playoffs?

I think the answer is yes. My point is, this is NOT the playoffs and he shoudln't be playing like it is.

That's all i'm trying to say. Nothing more.

I don't know right now. The only guy who can answer that is Mcgrady. I mean if you want my opinion which is based on nothing but speculation, i'd say he could against certain teams. Against the Lakers? No. Against the Celtics? No. Against the Jazz? Yeh maybe.

[jVgOwnsYou]

That answer may be the answer to why T-Mac can't get past the 1st round of the playoffs. You establish your playoff destiny now, look at how hard Boston played all last year and look at how intense and hard the Lakers are currently playing. Ron Artest was probably hurting much worse than T-Mac was last night and he played as if his life depended on it, his effort was all out.

None of the big three for Boston were coming off of knee surgery last year were they?

[northeastfan]

That answer may be the answer to why T-Mac can't get past the 1st round of the playoffs. You establish your playoff destiny now, look at how hard Boston played all last year and look at how intense and hard the Lakers are currently playing. Ron Artest was probably hurting much worse than T-Mac was last night and he played as if his life depended on it, his effort was all out.

Woe to those who think they can turn it on when it counts!

You'd think TMac would learn that by now. So come playoff time, what happens? TMac says, "I'm gonna play now so give me the ball." The rest of the players can't run what they've run the rest of the year. Soon, the whole team is going fishing and watching the rest of the playoffs. Change teams and repeat a few times.

[Mr.Pink]

Yao has always been slow. Now he's just worthless. I love how he even tried to hurt Tmac when he viciously tackled Tmac in the Suns game.

[abc2007]

Your hate goes so beyond! That's Shaq who pushed Tmac.

Yao has always been slow. Now he's just worthless. I love how he even tried to hurt Tmac when he viciously tackled Tmac in the Suns game.

[rocketsregle]

I think that will backfire. He'll morph into his primadonna personality and sulk.

Any other superstar would use it as motivation. It’s kind of telling that he would most likely do the opposite. We went through something similar last year with all the trade rumors early in the season... DD’s suggestion will not work. I don’t think it’s all in his head but it is a major part of the problem; JVG has made this suggestion more than once.

McGrady doesn’t want to realize that he isn’t 20 years old anymore and that he needs to adapt. Take for example warming up for the second half of games. He doesn’t and I don’t understand it. He didn’t have to when he first got in the league because he was that good but now he is 29 and struggling with his knee.

I know a lot of people were suggesting that Artest go to the bench when Battier comes back but I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea for McGrady to go there instead. At least until he gets his knee stronger. He would go against the 2nd team shooting guard, could be the rock for our second unit, and be available to finish off games. Will his ego allow it though?

[Angkor Wat]

If you want to compare the two teams, blame the offense. In 2005, with JVG, they ran a pretty simple offense. The main weapon was the Pick-N-Roll with T-Mac and Yao. It worked very well. That offense better suits are 3 stars than the current one. But hey, whatever works. Rick needs to do a hybrid offense that combines the two styles.

[Rocketeer]

JVG is talking about Tmac and his mentality on 1560 now......saying he thinks too much about what he used to be able to do, rather than what he is so good at now.

JVG thinks his mental state is the whole key.

Says he needs to be healthy and happy for this team to gel.

JVG and DD.....who would have thunk it?

DD

I think he's 100% spot on.

[solid]

TMac is slow, but Yao's decline is the most noticeable. He has become a shadow of his former self, and I really have doubts that he is going to regain the speed he had three seasons ago (and that wasn't really as fast as most players). Yao is painfully slow footed and has no lift whatsoever. His shooting has declined too. You would think he would be in basketball shape by now given all the workouts he has been through.

[DaDakota]

I never said Tmac was not in a little pain, I said sit him.....but basically it was inferred on 1560 today that the Rockets would like to sit him but don't believe he would be committed to doing his rehab, so they are letting him play through it.

I think Tmac does feel pain.....that is not my point......I think Tmac should have rehabbed over the summer....he had loose particles removed...Arthoscopic surgery is not that big of a deal....it is a very small incision, less than an inch a small tube is inserted with a camera and loose particles are removed.

You have very little pain.....at least in my case.

But coming back is a confidence issue, you have to get confident in your knee....Tmac is dragging it behind...he has to work through it.

Last night he failed on that alley oop attempt....not becaue he can't do it, but because he is too afraid to try to jump on that knee....he has to trust it and then it will strengthen.

I think the team should sit him....or drastically reduce his role......until he is confident again.

That is all I am saying.......oh, well...that and I think he is a non dedicated wuss....Brandon Roy had the same surgery in August.....

:D

DD

[DaDakota]

Dakota - Your "Dumb and Dumber" cerca 7 years ago had a better ring to it.

Ah Francis and Mobley...those were the days....good times...good times.

;)

DD

[Rockets9495]

Rhad,

I think Adelman is a great coach, but I actually think JVG got through to Tmac better.

Tmac has been too coddled, his entire life, and he needs some tough love, IMO.

The team should move on.....and make him catch up.

As for agreeing with me, well, most people eventually come around...

:D

DD

You are soo right on all of this. The guy is an act

[RocketsHero]

TMac is slow, but Yao's decline is the most noticeable. He has become a shadow of his former self, and I really have doubts that he is going to regain the speed he had three seasons ago (and that wasn't really as fast as most players). Yao is painfully slow footed and has no lift whatsoever. His shooting has declined too. You would think he would be in basketball shape by now given all the workouts he has been through.


If you actually watched all of the games this season, you would have noticed that he is getting better in shape. Definitely saw more lifts from him in last couple of games

[jump shooter]

None of the big three for Boston were coming off of knee surgery last year were they?

JVG, you missed the point didn't you. If you can't give the effort and your coming off of this so called debilitating "cough cough" arthroscopic surgery to clean out particles in your knee, then you need to sit down and wait for either your knee to heal or go see a sports physchologist. Effort is effort. All I know is that it's incredible to me that T-Mac can put out stupendous performances and great effort against teams like Boston and Portland, then look so apathetic and fragile against most other teams. An objective person is kidding themselves if they blame his lack effort on an injury. I am as big a T-Mac fan as there's ever been, I have made excuses in his favor for many years. He is an exceptional talent and probably one of the most talented basketball players I have ever seen, but I have finally come to a realization the kid lacks heart. I hope that he can prove me wrong IF the rockets make the playoffs and advance, but at this point with the addition of Ron Artest, if a good trade offer came along for T-Mac that could benifit the rockets I would seriously consider it.

[DaDakota]

If Tmac is not going to get over minor surgery, this team will not go anywhere.

We hitched our wagon to this guy and for better or worse he is driving the boat.

Personally, I want him to play when he is playing well, but when he starts that limp or hanging of his head...bench him.

DD

[BrooksBall]

DD,

You are spot on with your OP. I commend you for be willing to take some bashing for people that can't see the light.

I would actually extend the "Slow and Slower" concept to "Slow, Slower, Even Slower and Slower than Molasses".

That's what I was getting at a couple of weeks ago with this thread: Speed & Athleticism in the starting lineup (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=156933)

[northeastfan]

DD,

You are spot on with your OP. I commend you for be willing to take some bashing for people that can't see the light.

I would actually extend the "Slow and Slower" concept to "Slow, Slower, Even Slower and Slower than Molasses".

That's what I was getting at a couple of weeks ago with this thread: Speed & Athleticism in the starting lineup (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=156933)

DD, you are completely right in your OP. While the league is moving to a faster, more athletic game with more athletic players, we're stuck with the slow plodding TMacosuarus and Yaoceratops.

[BrooksBall]

DD, you are completely right in your OP. While the league is moving to a faster, more athletic game with more athletic players, we're stuck with the slow plodding TMacosuarus and Yaoceratops.

:D :D :D

[DaDakota]

I have never been a populist, calling it like you see it means you ruffle some feathers.

Who cares?

This is an internet message board for Rockets discussion, if we all thought alike it would be a boring place.

But some people are more forgiving.....me, I expect greatness.

There are some DDingleberries that follow me around and post in all my threads....some are in this thread, I might make a game out of it and see if you can figure out which one's they are....hint...one....might call Tmac a Rheinasuarus.

:D

DD

[jVgOwnsYou]

Just jump off the bandwagon already.

I'm just trying to figure out how you can be a fan of the team one day, and then all of a sudden because of a loss, you completely turn on the guys and say we can't win with yao and tmac as the leaders.

The only logical explaination is that you're overreacting to one game in November. That's sad given how long you've been watching the game. I guess that's the society we live in though....so unstable and reactionary.

[northeastfan]

Just jump off the bandwagon already.

I'm just trying to figure out how you can be a fan of the team one day, and then all of a sudden because of a loss, you completely turn on the guys and say we can't win with yao and tmac as the leaders.

The only logical explaination is that you're overreacting to one game in November. That's sad given how long you've been watching the game. I guess that's the society we live in though....so unstable and reactionary.

Look, there are several classes of fans:

"Optimistic" fans: We're going to go 77-5 this year; TMac will win MVP, Yao will average 30/15, and RonRon will win Defensive Player of the Year. We'll go 16-0 in the playoffs, easily dispatching the Hornets, Lakers and Celtics. Anyone who doesn't believe this is not a true fan of the Rockets.

"Realistic" fan: We're kind of lucky to be 7-5 right now. Our offense is horrible. Our defense is okay but has been pretty bad at times. TMac is injured. Yao is injured. Artest is injured. We'll probably make the playoffs but I expect to be disappointed again since TMac and Yao aren't getting any younger and look to be much worse than earlier versions.

"Pessamistic" fan: The Rockets are going nowhere. I've watched them for the last x years and they've disappointed me every time. I wish them luck, but I don't think were going to the post season and even if we do, we're certainly not winning anything there.

These are all fans. They just have different perspectives.

[jVgOwnsYou]

Look, there are several classes of fans:

"Optimistic" fans: We're going to go 77-5 this year; TMac will win MVP, Yao will average 30/15, and RonRon will win Defensive Player of the Year. We'll go 16-0 in the playoffs, easily dispatching the Hornets, Lakers and Celtics. Anyone who doesn't believe this is not a true fan of the Rockets.

"Realistic" fan: We're kind of lucky to be 7-5 right now. Our offense is horrible. Our defense is okay but has been pretty bad at times. TMac is injured. Yao is injured. Artest is injured. We'll probably make the playoffs but I expect to be disappointed again since TMac and Yao aren't getting any younger and look to be much worse than earlier versions.

"Pessamistic" fan: The Rockets are going nowhere. I've watched them for the last x years and they've disappointed me every time. I wish them luck, but I don't think were going to the post season and even if we do, we're certainly not winning anything there.

These are all fans. They just have different perspectives.

Ok heres a completely "realistic" question....Who, besides the Lakers, would beat a healthy Rockets in a 7 game series in the western conference?

[northeastfan]

Ok heres a completely "realistic" question....Who, besides the Lakers, would beat a healthy Rockets in a 7 game series in the western conference?

A healthy Spurs team? A healthy Jazz team? The Suns? The Hornets? The Blazers? These all look like they have a reasonable chance of beating the Rockets in a 7 game series.

[heypartner]

^ There's another fan:

"Satiated/Appreciative/Loves the NBA" -- The Rockets have giving me my best sports experience (thanks to Rudy and Hakeem, et al), everything else is gravy. Now we can sit back and watch the sport for sure enjoyment and root for current Rockets players and understand that their desire to win is probably much higher than ours, and their thrill of victory is probably much higher than ours, and JVG's depression after losses is pretty hilarious and makes me appreciate that none of us can put a candle to that emotional distraught.

I love this game.

[jVgOwnsYou]

A healthy Spurs team? A healthy Jazz team? The Suns? The Hornets? The Blazers? These all look like they have a reasonable chance of beating the Rockets in a 7 game series.

We beat the Suns and the Hornets a week ago with the team in its current "slow and slower" state.

The Jazz? I dont know, they're a great team. It would be another awesome series.

The Blazers? They have no answer for a healthy Tmac, and I think Battier would shut down Roy

The Spurs? I always felt we matched up well against them...but Yeh they could knock us off if theyre on their game, but our depth is superior to theirs.

[northeastfan]

We beat the Suns and the Hornets a week ago with the team in its current "slow and slower" state.

The Jazz? I dont know, they're a great team. It would be another awesome series.

The Blazers? They have no answer for a healthy Tmac, and I think Battier would shut down Roy

The Spurs? I always felt we matched up well against them...but Yeh they could knock us off if theyre on their game, but our depth is superior to theirs.

One regular season win does not a playoff series make ....

Also, note that every team wanted the Rockets in the first round last year; the Jazz won the lottery.

[jVgOwnsYou]

One regular season win does not a playoff series make ....

Also, note that every team wanted the Rockets in the first round last year; the Jazz won the lottery.

Weren't we without our most dominant player in that series?

[DaDakota]

^ There's another fan:

"Satiated/Appreciative/Loves the NBA" -- The Rockets have giving me my best sports experience (thanks to Rudy and Hakeem, et al), everything else is gravy. Now we can sit back and watch the sport for sure enjoyment and root for current Rockets players and understand that their desire to win is probably much higher than ours, and their thrill of victory is probably much higher than ours, and JVG's depression after losses is pretty hilarious and makes me appreciate that none of us can put a candle to that emotional distraught.

I love this game.

I can appreciate that sentiment HP. Sometimes I wish I was a little more laid back about it like you.

Unfortunatly I like to vent with my fellow fans here, and sometimes that irks people while others understand and want to discuss it.

However, I think everyone is still a fan......that should never be questioned.


JVG,

No one is giving up, where did I say that? I am just being realistic and calling it like I see it....Tmac is slow, out of shape, and afraid to jump off of that leg.

Yao, is also slow and indecisive with the basketball.

Any chance the Rockets have deals with them getting over their injuries and coming back strong......I am hopeful, but history has not been kind to them.....

All I want is effort...is that asking too much?

DD

[jVgOwnsYou]

One regular season win does not a playoff series make ....

Also, note that every team wanted the Rockets in the first round last year; the Jazz won the lottery.

Im just saying...since were playing so terribly like everyone is saying, we cant possibly get any worse...if at our worst we can beat the suns on the road and handle the hornets, why cant we beat them in a 7 game series? It would be illogical to think we couldnt.

[DaDakota]

Ok heres a completely "realistic" question....Who, besides the Lakers, would beat a healthy Rockets in a 7 game series in the western conference?

When is the last time we had a healthy Rockets team (mentally and physically)?, that I think is the crux of the matter.

DD

[CheezeyBoy22]

A healthy Spurs team? A healthy Jazz team? The Suns? The Hornets? The Blazers? These all look like they have a reasonable chance of beating the Rockets in a 7 game series.

Some folks would even throw in Denver.

With that all said, the Rockets need more time guys. It's only 12 games into the season. There are 70 more games to go.

Not only that, people here need to one stop thinking Francis is going to help us right now. And two, realize that Morey isn't going to just sign anyone right now. I, for one, believe they need to bring deke in but he isn't going to be the cure for everything. In the end, team rebounding will have to be something that the team will need to work on. Just like last year, we won because we played defense and we rebounded the damn ball.

This team is working it's way right now. There are some chemistry problems and health problems but all that is going to have to take time. The Rockets need to focus on getting better and winning the division. At least right now, everyone is struggling in our division and right now would be the time to add some wins up. We have some what of a crazy schedule in December because we have 5 back to backs but they should be fine. Our defense (besides last night), is starting to come back around.

[jVgOwnsYou]

I can appreciate that sentiment HP. Sometimes I wish I was a little more laid back about it like you.

Unfortunatly I like to vent with my fellow fans here, and sometimes that irks people while others understand and want to discuss it.

However, I think everyone is still a fan......that should never be questioned.


JVG,

No one is giving up, where did I say that? I am just being realistic and calling it like I see it....Tmac is slow, out of shape, and afraid to jump off of that leg.

Yao, is also slow and indecisive with the basketball.

Any chance the Rockets have deals with them getting over their injuries and coming back strong......I am hopeful, but history has not been kind to them.....

All I want is effort...is that asking too much?

DD

I think youre confused....I think you just want wins......and i think VERY MUCH LIKE last year, the wins will come.

[northeastfan]

Weren't we without our most dominant player in that series?

Yup and Alston, Battier and TMac were all gimpy for part or all of the series. Still, even with Yao, I think most teams would want to face us over virtually any other team in the playoffs. The TMac / Yao version of the Rockets have shown us that they just can't win when it counts. Come to think of it, TMac and Yao individually have shown the same thing.

[rhadamanthus]

When is the last time we had a healthy Rockets team (mentally and physically)?, that I think is the crux of the matter.

DD

2005. **** Dallas.

[jVgOwnsYou]

Some folks would even throw in Denver.

With that all said, the Rockets need more time guys. It's only 12 games into the season. There are 70 more games to go.

Not only that, people here need to one stop thinking Francis is going to help us right now. And two, realize that Morey isn't going to just sign anyone right now. I, for one, believe they need to bring deke in but he isn't going to be the cure for everything. In the end, team rebounding will have to be something that the team will need to work on. Just like last year, we won because we played defense and we rebounded the damn ball.

This team is working it's way right now. There are some chemistry problems and health problems but all that is going to have to take time. The Rockets need to focus on getting better and winning the division. At least right now, everyone is struggling in our division and right now would be the time to add some wins up. We have some what of a crazy schedule in December because we have 5 back to backs but they should be fine. Our defense (besides last night), is starting to come back around.

Hornets are 5-5 and have had very bad losses. Their fans are crying too I'm sure. WE WANT PARGO! PEDJA IS SOFT!!! DWEST IS OVERRATED AND WEAK MINDED

its a long season.

[DaDakota]

I think youre confused....I think you just want wins......and i think VERY MUCH LIKE last year, the wins will come.

LOL - I don't think you have been around here long enough.....I do want wins, I do think having home court advantage is crucial.

Only one team has EVER won the championship without Home court advantage, our Houston Rockets.

So, the odds are stacked heavily against a team that does not get that....the Lakers are off and running the rest is still struggling, but realistically, this team should be 10-2, not 7-5....the Portland game where TMac left Brandon Roy inexcusably, the San Antonio game where Tmac took over and the team blew a 10 point lead in 4 minutes and the Dallas game last night where the whole team stunk, at least the starters.

I do think chemistry will come, I have never thought Artest fits, and I am not confident that a gimpy wannabe superstar will get over his little boo boo anytime soon.

:)

DD

[jVgOwnsYou]

Yup and Alston, Battier and TMac were all gimpy for part or all of the series. Still, even with Yao, I think most teams would want to face us over virtually any other team in the playoffs. The TMac / Yao version of the Rockets have shown us that they just can't win when it counts. Come to think of it, TMac and Yao individually have shown the same thing.

Tmac and Yao took the rockets to a 7th game against the Jazz with Hayes as a starter, Head and Howard playing significant minutes....Artest, Scola, Landry, Brooks....Its a completely different team.

[CheezeyBoy22]

Hornets are 5-5 and have had very bad losses. Their fans are crying too I'm sure. WE WANT PARGO! PEDJA IS SOFT!!! DWEST IS OVERRATED AND WEAK MINDED

its a long season.

Yeah the Hornets are struggling. Their depth is really bad. They'll have to trade Peja or Mo to get something in return. But Mo isn't that great either.

Oh their fans have been thinking about all kinds of stuff. Check our their website.

[DaDakota]

Tmac and Yao took the rockets to a 7th game against the Jazz with Hayes as a starter, Head and Howard playing significant minutes....Artest, Scola, Landry, Brooks....Its a completely different team.

And not the same Tmac and Yao. Sort of the point of this thread....you know.

DD

[CheezeyBoy22]

LOL - I don't think you have been around here long enough.....I do want wins, I do think having home court advantage is crucial.

Only one team has EVER won the championship without Home court advantage, our Houston Rockets.

So, the odds are stacked heavily against a team that does not get that....the Lakers are off and running the rest is still struggling, but realistically, this team should be 10-2, not 7-5....the Portland game where TMac left Brandon Roy inexcusably, the San Antonio game where Tmac took over and the team blew a 10 point lead in 4 minutes and the Dallas game last night where the whole team stunk, at least the starters.

I do think chemistry will come, I have never thought Artest fits, and I am not confident that a gimpy wannabe superstar will get over his little boo boo anytime soon.



DD

I think JVG is getting upset because one minute you are talking soo great about them when they are winning and then bashing them soo badly when they win.

I think you and other people are just venting. It has nothing to do with wins, loses, or if you love the team.

[jVgOwnsYou]

LOL - I don't think you have been around here long enough.....I do want wins, I do think having home court advantage is crucial.

Only one team has EVER won the championship without Home court advantage, our Houston Rockets.

So, the odds are stacked heavily against a team that does not get that....the Lakers are off and running the rest is still struggling, but realistically, this team should be 10-2, not 7-5....the Portland game where TMac left Brandon Roy inexcusably, the San Antonio game where Tmac took over and the team blew a 10 point lead in 4 minutes and the Dallas game last night where the whole team stunk, at least the starters.

I do think chemistry will come, I have never thought Artest fits, and I am not confident that a gimpy wannabe superstar will get over his little boo boo anytime soon.

:)

DD

Why watch then? Sounds like you got Mcgrady and the rockets all figured out. Whats the point?

[DaDakota]

Why watch then? Sounds like you got Mcgrady and the rockets all figured out. Whats the point?

Hope that Tmac will man up and Yao will regain his form.

DD

[jVgOwnsYou]

And not the same Tmac and Yao. Sort of the point of this thread....you know.

DD

Tell me you didnt see this tmac in 06, or see it last year when he came back from injury...This happens every freakin year.

[northeastfan]

Tmac and Yao took the rockets to a 7th game against the Jazz with Hayes as a starter, Head and Howard playing significant minutes....Artest, Scola, Landry, Brooks....Its a completely different team.

You're right that it is a completely different team. Maybe if we had a some better talent around TMac and Yao in their prime, we would have advance. But, honestly, as the OP intoned.

TMac and Yao are past their prime and declining FAST

I don't care about the average peak of basketball players. TMac is clearly past his and so is Yao. Stats don't lie.

[DaDakota]

Tell me you didnt see this tmac in 06, or see it last year when he came back from injury...This happens every freakin year.


Actually I think this is worse.....he looks out of shape to me.....I have never seen Tmac look this slow...that is the point.

DD

[badgerfan]

You've got to play the cards you're dealt. That said, what's really troubling me about T-Mac is he looks lifeless out there. No passion, no intensity, no commitment. Does it look like he's even trying to execute the offense?

My vote is to bench him for a couple of weeks and see if the rest of the Rockets gel.

[CheezeyBoy22]

And not the same Tmac and Yao. Sort of the point of this thread....you know.

DD


T-Mac and Yao will never be the same. We've never been able to give the ball to Yao in the low post. Pick n Roll was the best thing that T-Mac and Yao could do in 05. It was great and no one could stop those two. Now the role players are totally different.

Injuries have taken away a lot from both guys. Just like JVG said on the radio this morning, T-Mac has to change his thinking. Just because he's not the same player doesn't mean he can't play effectively.

[jVgOwnsYou]

Actually I think this is worse.....he looks out of shape to me.....I have never seen Tmac look this slow...that is the point.

DD

He looked just as bad last year coming off the injury.

[abc2007]

Be positive! If they have their best forms in playoffs, that will be better than they have best forms right now!

All we need is to make playoffs. You know we are division leader right now! ;)

And not the same Tmac and Yao. Sort of the point of this thread....you know.

DD

[ShadyMcGrady]

A healthy Spurs team? A healthy Jazz team? The Suns? The Hornets? The Blazers? These all look like they have a reasonable chance of beating the Rockets in a 7 game series.

Not the Suns. Not the Spurs. Jazz and Hornets would be tough. Not the Blazers.

[CheezeyBoy22]

T-Mac is really slow right now. There's no doubt about it. He can't guard anyone. He couldn't keep Jason Kidd infront of him. That's pretty bad.

Hopefully he can get it together for the second half of the season.

[ShadyMcGrady]

Actually I think this is worse.....he looks out of shape to me.....I have never seen Tmac look this slow...that is the point.

DD

How much of it do you think is the knee injury and how much of it is other factors? Laziness, lack of effort, lack of conditioning, etc.

I know his knee isn't going to magically get better. We have to rest him to see if it makes any progress, which is a solution I agree with. Problem is, we can't rest him until Battier gets back.

[badgerfan]

Not the Suns. Not the Spurs. Jazz and Hornets would be tough. Not the Blazers.

So the Lakers, Jazz and Hornets are solid candidates to beat the Rockets in a 7 game playoff series.

Do you want the Rox to face any of those teams without home court advantage? The Lakers may be out of reach but the Rockets could have a chance at ending up with a better record than at least NO and Utah.

This garbage about T-Mac turning it on in the playoffs is worthless. What difference does it make if he kicks ass in the playoffs and the Rockets lose game 7 at the other team's arena? The regular season matters.

[abc2007]

You know what, actually, I think it is a good thing for us to lose to the mavs and spurs. If they lose too much, they will tank the season. Now, they still fight and make the WC conference more competitive! As a result, we are still the division leader with 7-5! ;)

[killer instinct]

Yao is not lazy but limited by his body.

Tracy is lazy a lot of the time and limited by his ego.

[DaDakota]

Yao is not lazy but limited by his body.

Tracy is lazy a lot of the time and limited by his ego.


I agree with you 100%....

One man works so hard at rehab it might hurt him further and must be restrained from doing it.

The other gets a minor surgery and does basically zero rehab and hopes that the team can hold together while he works himself in shape.

Sad but true.

DD

[ferrarif1286]

they lost last night because the "slower" yao is not there.

[DaDakota]

they lost last night because the "slower" yao is not there.
He would have helped, I just hope that he gets back to his old self.

With Yao, I think he will work as hard as it takes.....with Tmac...meh.

DD

[knote32]

Great post Dada.......

[northeastfan]

Yao is not lazy but limited by his body.

Tracy is lazy a lot of the time and limited by his ego.

You've summarized it pretty well. Yao knows he's not a very good player so he works extremely hard at being competitive. TMac thinks he's g-d so he hardly lifts a finger.

[tsc]

I agree with you 100%....

One man works so hard at rehab it might hurt him further and must be restrained from doing it.

The other gets a minor surgery and does basically zero rehab and hopes that the team can hold together while he works himself in shape.

Sad but true.

DD

This shows that TMac cares little about this team and his fans. What a pity his fans here still have to defend him despite the fact that he is basically *****ting on them.

[ShadyMcGrady]

So the Lakers, Jazz and Hornets are solid candidates to beat the Rockets in a 7 game playoff series.

Do you want the Rox to face any of those teams without home court advantage? The Lakers may be out of reach but the Rockets could have a chance at ending up with a better record than at least NO and Utah.

This garbage about T-Mac turning it on in the playoffs is worthless. What difference does it make if he kicks ass in the playoffs and the Rockets lose game 7 at the other team's arena? The regular season matters.

If you're gong to play hypotheticals...

What difference does it make if T-Mac's play helps us to get home court advantage and his knee gives out and he can't play in the playoffs and we get run over at home and on the road?

[badgerfan]

If you're gong to play hypotheticals...

What difference does it make if T-Mac's play helps us to get home court advantage and his knee gives out and he can't play in the playoffs and we get run over at home and on the road?

What excuse does a professional basketball player have for phoning it in for entire games?

I've got the perfect solution--if he doesn't want to work his ass off during the regular season let him ride the bench until the playoffs come along. If the choice you're offering is T-Mac coasts during the regular season and the Rockets lose in the first round because they don't have home court versus the Rockets losing because the stars are injured I don't see what the big difference is. They both work out to another early first round exit.

[dandorotik]

.....111......

[ShadyMcGrady]

What excuse does a professional basketball player have for phoning it in for entire games?

I've got the perfect solution--if he doesn't want to work his ass off during the regular season let him ride the bench until the playoffs come along. If the choice you're offering is T-Mac coasts during the regular season and the Rockets lose in the first round because they don't have home court versus the Rockets losing because the stars are injured I don't see what the big difference is. They both work out to another early first round exit.

I have no problem with him sitting out until he's healthy. Until then, or if that ever happens, he's going to be out there playing and hobbling. That's something you have to live with. At least he's out there playing and not asking to sit or giving up. Why do you think he's phoning in games? Because he's moving slow? or because it looks like he's not trying?

[badgerfan]

I have no problem with him sitting out until he's healthy. Until then, or if that ever happens, he's going to be out there playing and hobbling. That's something you have to live with. At least he's out there playing and not asking to sit or giving up. Why do you think he's phoning in games? Because he's moving slow? or because it looks like he's not trying?

I admit it's a subjective thing, but it sure looks to me like he doesn't give a crap.

Frankly, if I were the only one I would have assumed it was just me and I wouldn't have posted anything. But it's not just me.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=157265

[northeastfan]

I admit it's a subjective thing, but it sure looks to me like he doesn't give a crap.

Frankly, if I were the only one I would have assumed it was just me and I wouldn't have posted anything. But it's not just me.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=157265

I disagree. I think he does care ... just enough to show up but not enough to play hard.

[t_mac1]

I disagree. I think he does care ... just enough to show up but not enough to play hard.

i agree with this assesment, not with badgerfan who thinks the guy just shows up and does nothing, which is just blind criticism.

tracy does care or else he would find a reason to sit out. that's why he's playing. but it could also be said he might not go all out b/c he's not fully healthy.

[badgerfan]

i agree with this assesment, not with badgerfan who thinks the guy just shows up and does nothing, which is just blind criticism.

tracy does care or else he would find a reason to sit out. that's why he's playing. but it could also be said he might not go all out b/c he's not fully healthy.

What the heck are you talking about? The guy you just quoted (Northeastfan) wrote that T-Mac shows up and then coasts through games without trying hard/working.

[t_mac1]

What the heck are you talking about? The guy you just quoted (Northeastfan) wrote that T-Mac shows up and then coasts through games without trying hard/working.

i quote him b/c he says tracy does care (while you think he doesn't).

but i agree when people say he doesn't give 100% effort out there like he does in the playoffs. he just picks his spots...

[RoyiLi]

T-MAC is very good without injuer

[badgerfan]

i quote him b/c he says tracy does care (while you think he doesn't).

but i agree when people say he doesn't give 100% effort out there like he does in the playoffs. he just picks his spots...

He said he cares just enough to show up but not enough to actually play hard. I wouldn't take that as a compliment.

[DaDakota]

I think he cares, I just think he is scared.

DD

[rockets-#1]

*Grunch*

Nice OP, Double D. I agree with all of that.... except trading for Starbury, lol that's not the answer.

It's really sad though, those two aren't themselves anymore. :(

[leebigez]

I think both guys are playing hurt. DD, some people respond to surgery differently. In a ideal scenerio, shane is healthy and tracy is either sitting or playing 25 mins working back slowly. Also ideally, Yao has deke,elson,mihm, or mbenga and he's playing 27 mins working himself back. Sadly for us, shane is hurt and our backup c is 6'5 because the gm doesn't see anyone that can help better than our current bigs. I'm kinda pissed at morey because la has 7 guys over 6'10 and we have 1. What sense does that make? I didn't graduate from m.I.t., but anyone with basketball sense can tell that's a bad proportion .

[oneonepyopyo]

^ There's another fan:

"Satiated/Appreciative/Loves the NBA" -- The Rockets have giving me my best sports experience (thanks to Rudy and Hakeem, et al), everything else is gravy. Now we can sit back and watch the sport for sure enjoyment and root for current Rockets players and understand that their desire to win is probably much higher than ours, and their thrill of victory is probably much higher than ours, and JVG's depression after losses is pretty hilarious and makes me appreciate that none of us can put a candle to that emotional distraught.

I love this game.

Well said. Agreed.

I just love the T-mac&Yao's combo. Now I love the Big Three.

Why? I've been watching them play for several years. They are the core of Houston Rockets. Of course, we expect much more like a O'brian Cup and it looks like they do have the talent and potential there to get it. But hell yeah, nothing is perfect. Due to kinds of reasons, they havent done it.

This year, we got Ron and formed the Big Three. Though two of our big three are no longer doing good as they used to be, I still love to watch this team to melt and grow together. Sure, some people might say 'only if they stay healthy'. I'd agree. Personally , I would like to play this bet and see what's going on till the end of this season.

[william1977]

so i suggest we should give Tmac and Yao more time to have a rest, we should also give someone else more chances.

[monster]

Anyone calling TMac "mentally weak" or "mentally soft" needs to look in the mirror. We're 7-5 even though we aren't playing that well, and many of you are ready to abandon ship. What's sad as that I can't even post about the Rockets any more bc I feel obligated to tell some of you how weak your attitude is. Man up! Support your team! If you think we suck that bad or you really dislike our players so much....leave. Stop posting. Your constant negative BS is helping nobody and you aren't as witty as you think.

[Nitro1118]

Everyone, doctors, coaches, announcers, everyone has said his knee is fine he just needs to strengthen it.


I have only read the first page, but I have a real problem with this. They don't say that his knee is fine...they say it is at a point where he can play through the pain. That does NOT mean it doesn't hurt him, and it does NOT mean that his mentality is the only culprit.

I also have a problem with you simply saying his pain is from the arthroscopic surgery...did you follow T-Mac last year? Arthroscopic surgeries are just to remove loose bodies, but what hampered him last year was a deep bone bruise that kept him out for a month (same injury that kept Marvin Harrison out all of last year). His problem with the knee goes beyond simply removing loose bodies.

Is T-Mac's confidence shot right now? Yes. That is very, very clear. He is used to being the top player on the court and being one of the most athletic wings in the game. You cannot just tell someone to toughen up and play 110% through the pain...everyone heals at a different pace, and lord knows T-Mac has had enough injuries to know what his limitations are and how to play himself back to shape. It is on ADELMAN to realize that if T-Mac's level of play warrants benching him a few weeks to fully rehab that knee.

On a final note, the scariest part of his injury is that he started off the season nicely. In the Celtics and Blazers game he did look close to his athleticism level in 06-07 (which, up until this year, was his worst year athletically). However, since that Blazers game, he has looked worse and worse, which is very concerning for a player that doctors say should be getting better as he plays more games.

[shakegod]

who is slower,Tmac or Yao?Tmac have to learn how to win a game from,keep the appetite of winning the match.

[llRainmanll]

it's way too early in the season to make any assumptions, plus, you're comparing a playoff series to the regular season, that's a terrible comparison, everyone plays harder in the playoffs, or at least try harder, so just wait until we find our offense and t-mac gets healthy, same with yao, battier, artest.

[knote32]

I think he cares, I just think he is scared.

DD
DD you just NAILED IT in this thread....... Thank you!

[Carladyfan]

yao's problem is always his conditioning, can't understand how he comes in looking fat and slow sometimes, and another day he look fit(when he keeps his weight down), what's up with that, he need to keep his weight down, that's called consistency imo, whoever the trainer or physician for the team is needs to wise up or get replaced asap, or maybe it's just a problem with yao being stupid with his diet, stop eating whatever mommy feeds you.

[jump shooter]

I think both guys are playing hurt. DD, some people respond to surgery differently. In a ideal scenerio, shane is healthy and tracy is either sitting or playing 25 mins working back slowly. Also ideally, Yao has deke,elson,mihm, or mbenga and he's playing 27 mins working himself back. Sadly for us, shane is hurt and our backup c is 6'5 because the gm doesn't see anyone that can help better than our current bigs. I'm kinda pissed at morey because la has 7 guys over 6'10 and we have 1. What sense does that make? I didn't graduate from m.I.t., but anyone with basketball sense can tell that's a bad proportion .

Agree, the rockets need athletic size in the worst way possible. Morey has been a huge disappointment in not addressing this major issue. I'm very surprised that he's gambled on Yao's health. Both Scola and Hayes need a running start to dunk a basketball and that was your starting frontline against the Mavericks. If the rockets had to play the Blazers in the 1st round of the playoffs, they would be in trouble.

[Russjr2]

Agree, the rockets need athletic size in the worst way possible. Morey has been a huge disappointment in not addressing this major issue. I'm very surprised that he's gambled on Yao's health. Both Scola and Hayes need a running start to dunk a basketball and that was your starting frontline against the Mavericks. If the rockets had to play the Blazers in the 1st round of the playoffs, they would be in trouble.

Morey is not done making moves. Give Dorsey a chance to show himself in practice, eventually he will make his way on to the court. Deke will be back as well. Those two players will shore up the paint for rebounds.

[pacmania]

I think he cares, I just think he is scared.

DD

There may be some merit to your observation DD, as Robert Frost put it so eloquently, " Success does not always come to the best man, but to those who think they can."

I just wish we could see more games like that Phoenix game from him.

That being said , there is also a saying that " when the legs are gone, the heart and the mind will follow." ;)

[Russjr2]

I think he cares, I just think he is scared.

DD

All OPINION...

We are 12 games in and the bashing has already started. The bad play can be spread around to atleast 5 guys, Yao, T-Mac, Alston, Barry, and Artest. All of those guys are not playing up to their averages 'right now'. It takes time for a team to gel and figure out what their roles are. Not to mention Shane is not in the rotation yet. Not to mentin a really tough schedule this month. We knew that going in. I'm not alarmed, we will be a very good team once everyone is back and the rotation is determined and Morey makes his trade(s).

[DaDakota]

All OPINION...
.

Yes, it is clearly my opinion, which is why I said "I think"....

It is my observation, nothing more.....however, I am pretty darned observent.

:D

DD

[leebigez]

Morey is not done making moves. Give Dorsey a chance to show himself in practice, eventually he will make his way on to the court. Deke will be back as well. Those two players will shore up the paint for rebounds.

So again a team looking for a title and we're down to hoping for 6'7 rookie center to be the answer? Even dream had earl cureton and charles jones as a backup not to mention thorpe could play there also.

[professorjay]

I agree these guys look a step slower than a few years ago. Yao needs to catch the ball in the post and immediately go for a hook or face up jumper. When he takes 5 seconds trying to post, he's much more likely to get blocked or stripped. He's usually money when he catches and shoots.

[jump shooter]

Morey is not done making moves. Give Dorsey a chance to show himself in practice, eventually he will make his way on to the court. Deke will be back as well. Those two players will shore up the paint for rebounds.

Dorsey at this stage in his career is a human foul machine. He' also 6'6 or 6'7.

[GRENDEL]

DD saying JVG did a better job than RA, that alone was worth reading this thread.....

[DaDakota]

DD saying JVG did a better job than RA, that alone was worth reading this thread.....
I did NOT say that, I said that JVG got through to Tmac better than Rick Adelman.

JVG was a champion motivator of Tmac, I think he knew what buttons to push.

All my criticisms of JVG as a coach still stand.

:D

DD

[Rockets Jones]

I just finished watching game 2 of the WCF 1986 @ Lakers and boy that Ralph Sampson & Olajuwon. Both had amazing speed and could block any player on the court, they were a combined 12 blocks or something. Just picture Yao having the quickness of Ralph.... :( Also Ralph seems much bigger than Yao, mainly because he plays bigger than Yao. Seeing Ralph makes me realize even more that Yao's body is not built for this sport and though he tries so hard and is a great human being, he will always come short and I feel bad for him. The guy is not even blocking shots and rebounding like he used to. I think this is officially the year T-mac and Yao will decline and to the other guy who made the thread of Yao possible HOF - sadly no, same goes for T-mac.

[JoeZ]

Yesterday, NBA TV was playing the 2005 game 2 between the Mavs and Rockets. The Tmac dunk game.

And I was blown away by how quick and decisive both Yao and Tmac were only 3 years ago.

They were moving so well, and playing so hard, it made me wince in pain to watch the Mavs game last night.

I know both are coming off of injury, but if they aren't going to get back to this level, the team will not be going anywhere.

Yao, right now is just slower than Molasses, he is slow to rotate on D, slow to make a move on offense, and has no lift, just watching that Dallas series where he was getting up the floor and dunking with speed and agility (well for Yao) makes me sad. Is he done doing that? Have his injuries so severely limited him that he may never have that quickness again?

If not, then he needs to remake himself into a power player, and learn to hit that 15 footer at the top of the key, which frees up space to drive for our other players, and gives Yao a break from all the low post banging.

As for Tmac, man, it is hard for me to watch him, because he is clearly not right physi....no check that....mentally.

All this talk about his knee being a major issue is weird, because all he had was arthoscopic surgery, some loose bodies cleared out of the knee, the same surgery that Brandon Roy had in August.

Assuming the doctors are telling the truth, and with the Rocket's medical team you never know, then TMac is flat out being lazy. The impression I get from the writers, the announcers and the staff is that he needs to work through it and strengthen his knee? What? He has had 6 months to do that, why is the team waiting on that now?

I think Tmac hoped Artest would allow him to ease into the season, so he took it easy, and now is just out of shape. To me his left leg looks smaller and he is just not trying to test it.

If he is going to play 30 minutes than he needs to go HARD during those 30 minutes, do not pace himself....PLAY HARD....if he is not going to do that, then I suggest you sit him.

Tell him clearly he is hurt, and let him watch his teamates move on, build the team around the others, and then when he gets tired of sulking ease him back in.

Remember last year when he mentioned that the team was leaving him behind athletically, well.....do it again.

Tmac's problem is not his knee, it is above his shoulders. The team needs to move on.....and let him catch up.

DD

PS. I would leak a Tmac for Marbury trade rumor if I were Rockets brass....not do the trade, but make it seem like he is being shopped....hurt his pride a little....challenge him.

Spot on.....You can tell T-Mac is babying his knee and we all know in sports, when you do that, your bound to get hurt.

I dont see any desire as Ive always said. Theres something missing and Its called Heart.

This team needs Rudy T and Olajuwon to give them a pep talk. Its the small things that matter. We are all waiting for T-Mac to help himself. Mentally.

[AntiSonic]

This team needs Rudy T and Olajuwon to give them a pep talk. Its the small things that matter. We are all waiting for T-Mac to help himself. Mentally.

The Rockets need to sign Rudy as a special assistant coach JUST to give motivational speeches to the team. Get him hammered and let him say whatever he wants at halftime.

[jVgOwnsYou]

teh rocketz sux. Yao is slow and Mcgrady has no heart. teh rocketsz sux.

[durvasa]

There was one defensive possession that typified what this thread's about in the second half. Both of them were right under the basket, and neither was alert enough to secure an uncontested defensive board. I could only close my eyes and shake my head.

[dfoolz]

Nice blanket statement from the all knowing..... :rolleyes: [

QUOTE=DaDakota]Yes, I get that, but when I went to the Spurs game, the lack of effort was staggering.

NBA players do not play hard pretty much all game...until the last 10 minutes.

TMac included.

DD[/QUOTE]

[2deep]

The difference isn't as big as it would appear right now. You were watching two completely different players. The playoff TMac and regular season TMac...if you think he lost a step go back and watch the 2nd quarter of Game 2 against the Jazz last year (the game when he ran himself ragged early) he was flying all over the place.

Not that it's any more acceptable, just the truth, that's what we're going to get from Tracy. With a couple of other scoring options like we have right now I'll take the guy who can be occasionally spectacular, yet still contribute to the offense(passing) while moving slow.

Yao on the otherhand, is just moving slow, hopefully he gets back up to full speed quickly.

[shakegod]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf59ALnL_LI

[killlogan]

I would rather to see yao getting lower instead of slower. Yao may be too big to play basketball games that need speed and JUMPINGS. He may perhaps jump a little bit higher if he gets lower.

[DaDakota]

Nice blanket statement from the all knowing..... :rolleyes: Yes, I get that, but when I went to the Spurs game, the lack of effort was staggering.

NBA players do not play hard pretty much all game...until the last 10 minutes.

TMac included.

DD

Well then don't take my word for it, take the Rockets players THEMSELVES....this is too easy.

----------------------------------------------------------

Link to article (http://blogs.chron.com/nba/2008/11/will_rockets_learn_their_lesso.html)

"The Rockets had a lot to learn from Friday's game. They put in a terrible effort and go away with it with a fine eight minutes. They were horrible in the first quarter for a third consecutive game, with the Thunder, Mavs and Wiz averaging 30 in the past three opening quarters.

Even after they came all the way back from a 12-point deficit to a four-point third quarter lead, they were in trouble again, falling behind by nine with less than nine minutes left.

They turned the game around and then blew it wide open by draining 3s, hitting 6 of 8 in the final eight minutes. They can't count on that. They can't count on giving only eight very solid, intense minutes and expecting to win.

"We know we had a very good eight minutes in the fourth quarter," Yao Ming said. "That's how we came back. That should be the best quarter for us every game. We just woke up. I'm not happy about the first three quarters. But it is not too late to wake up in the fourth quarter. Sometimes it's too late, but not tonight."

They know they got away with one.

"Our energy level was down," Tracy McGrady said.

"We understand we didn't play well, Ron Artest said. "We're not too happy with the way we played."

-----------------------------------------------------------


Amazing isn't it?

DD