Are golfers athletes?

[ROCKSS]

Published Sunday, February 18, 2001, in the Miami Herald


Tiger's got game, but he's no athlete
Tiger Woods is many things -- a magnificent champion, the most famous face in sports, the world's greatest golfer -- but this is what he's not:
He's not an athlete.

Golfers aren't athletes. They have a skill, just like bowlers, fishermen, brain surgeons and seamstresses. To be an athlete, one must jump, run, catch or (this would be nice) at least move. Golfers? They need even their bags carried for them. Golf is something Michael Jordan does for 54 holes before participating in a playoff game, kind of like stretching.

What golfers possess is wonderful hand-eye coordination (just like pool players, who aren't athletes), mental strength (just like chess players, who aren't athletes) and flawless mechanics (just like jugglers, who aren't athletes). What they don't possess, by and large, is very much athleticism.

When I think of an athlete, I think of Edgerrin James, Alex Rodríguez, Kobe Bryant, Evander Holyfield. I do not think of John Daly. You say baseball players like tubby Boston pitcher Rich Garces aren't athletes? I say at least baseball players are dealing with a ball that is thrown, chased or caught (and a caddie doesn't stand next to the mound holding Garces' glove). Put the ball on the tee, and baseball players wouldn't be athletes any more. They'd be golfers.

Speed, stamina and strength are sports signatures, but you can win at golf without having any of them. Granted, Tiger Woods' picture-perfect swing and overwhelming power make him more of an athlete than most golfers, but that's a backhanded compliment, kind of like saying someone looks pretty handsome for an ugly person or writes well compared to Cote.

There is no sweat in golf, no exertion. The most physically demanding thing a golfer does is walk. Heck, I'd crawl 18 holes if there were a $500,000 check at the end. Just because Woods has more athleticism than most golfers doesn't make him an athlete any more than my having more muscles than Pee Wee Herman makes me a bodybuilder.

Boxing and George Foreman exempted, what real sport has athletes still playing into their second century? Golfers, meanwhile, keep churning along professionally into their 60s. If you don't think an athlete playing into his 60s is absurd, imagine Art Donovan trying to tackle Marshall Faulk.

For the love of Arnold Palmer, an 82-year-old woman last week had two holes-in-one in the same round, meaning she has done something Woods may never do.

Tiger Woods is a great hero who continues to redefine his game.

He just isn't an athlete.


dlebatard@herald.com

















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[Major]

I dunno -- he makes a pretty good argument, though. I guess it just depends on how you define "athlete".


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http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.

[Steve_Francis_rules]

I agree, golf isn't physical enough for the players to be considered athletes.


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[AhPook]

A wise man once told me that golf is an activity, not a sport.

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Brought to you by the letter M.

[Moe]

I guess it depends on how you define sports. To me, sports is competition involving physical skills. Recreational skiing or boarding is much more demanding physically, but wouldn't qualify in my book, because there is no competition.

Some people consider hunting and fishing sports, but I don't. I think the competition has to be human to be sports.

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[DEANBCURTIS]

By definition this is a sport, an individual or group competitive activity involving physical exertion or skill, governed by rules, and sometimes engaged in professionally. With that said technically golf is a sport and I agree it is. Now although it seems it is not a sport with athletes because of the low visible activity but playing 18 holes on a professional course against the greatest in the world should be enough to be considered a sport.

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Ceo of the Walt Williams and Lisa Malosky fan club.


atheistalliance.org (http://www.atheistalliance.org)

[JuanValdez]

I like Moe's approach. First we have to define a sport. And I think he has a good defintion, which is, as I understand it, a physical competition. What keeps golf, and race car driving, and horseback riding, skiing, running and a bunch of other stuff from being considered by me to be sport is that there is no defense, so there is no direct competition.

In Irving's The World According to Garp, the protagonist reflects on sport and decides that wrestling (the real kind, not that WWF bull****) is the purest of sports because it pits man against man and has no intermediary object (like a bat or a basketball) between them. I like that assessment. Wrestling also does not have much distinction between what is offense and what is defense, which, I think, adds to its stature. The same can be said of boxing.

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[Live]

Good point, DEAN.

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[Hydra]

The following I do not consider to be sports:
Golf
Frolf
Bowling
Auto Racing
Pool/Billiards
Ping Pong
Badmitten
Those who paticipate in these non sports are not athletes. They are gamers.

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"We messed with the Bull, and we got the horns." -- Larry Brown "quote" from AirBullard.com

[Rocket River]

I dunno . . Gymnastics don't seem that much
of a Sport. . they are definately Athletic

Rocket River

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[Jeff]

It's a sport. A wussie sport, but a sport nonetheless. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif he he he.

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Art don't pay the rent.

[Puedlfor]

If you can wear clothing that restricts your movement(slacks, collared shirts) and suffer no corresponding drop in performance, it's not a sport. Golf is not a sport.

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The Rockets will be the NBA champions. Believe.

[Moe]

Too funny! If putting a collar on your shirt hurts your performance, you are definately not an athlete.

Sorry, coach. I could have definately hit that ball out if this damn collar wasn't holding me back.
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[This message has been edited by Moe (edited March 09, 2001).]

[Ali Cat]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BobFinn*:
Have you ever golfed? I would say not, judging by your opinion. Golf is more than just skill. Are Nascar drivers atheletes? Housewives drive cars, old people drive cars (rather slowly, I might add). They drive a car around in a circle for a couple of hours is that athletic?

</font>

Uh yeah I have golfed. I have golfed at some of the top courses in Houston, namely Shadowhawk, the Houstonian, Black Horse, and Champions. And it sucks. There is NO and I repeat NO athleticism involved. Yes you have to swing a stick and hit a ball. Great. But sorry, still not an atheletic move. You don't have to run after the damn ball or catch the ball or ANYTHING even remotely athletic. All you have to do is WALK for goodness sake. And not everyone does that. Have YOU ever played golf? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

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Poopy!

[Ali Cat]

"Boxing and George Foreman exempted, what real sport has athletes still playing into their second century? Golfers, meanwhile, keep churning along professionally into their 60s. If you don't think an athlete playing into his 60s is absurd, imagine Art Donovan trying to tackle Marshall Faulk."

Umm, let's see. I ride horses (and yes this is a REAL sport, one that requires serious physical capabilities and coordination) and people can participate in it well into their sixties. Don't give that crap about how the horse does all the work. blah blah blah. If you say that then you have never riddena horse.

I agree with the rest of the article. Golf is absolutely a game of skill and one that I cannot play. But athelete? No way.

Really though, it all comes down with how you define sport and athelete. Isn't this the whole debate that is going on with Casey Martin?



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Poopy!

[BobFinn*]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ali Cat:


Umm, let's see. I ride horses (and yes this is a REAL sport, one that requires serious physical capabilities and coordination) and people can participate in it well into their sixties. Don't give that crap about how the horse does all the work. blah blah blah. If you say that then you have never riddena horse.

</font>

Have you ever golfed? I would say not, judging by your opinion. Golf is more than just skill. Are Nascar drivers atheletes? Housewives drive cars, old people drive cars (rather slowly, I might add). They drive a car around in a circle for a couple of hours is that athletic?



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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."-
(Aldous Huxley)

[ChenZhen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ali Cat:
Uh yeah I have golfed. I have golfed at some of the top courses in Houston, namely Shadowhawk, the Houstonian, Black Horse, and Champions. And it sucks. There is NO and I repeat NO athleticism involved. Yes you have to swing a stick and hit a ball. Great. But sorry, still not an atheletic move. You don't have to run after the damn ball or catch the ball or ANYTHING even remotely athletic. All you have to do is WALK for goodness sake. And not everyone does that. Have YOU ever played golf? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif
</font>

BS...I don't buy it...you've played that many courses and still don't think its a sport? wow..unless they are putt-putt courses you listed, that's another story...

IMO, people who have argued against golf being athletes have not even stepped on a golf course before, ever...it looks easy and everything on TV, but try walking ALL 18 holes...

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[Moe]

I can see how people have the idea that golfers are not athletes. I don't really care what people think, but here are some other angles on some of what is said. Like most sports, and I do think golf is a sport, the best golfers are the best athletes. Tell you what, go out and hit 1000 golf balls in one day and see if your arms don't feel like they are going to fall off.

Generally, there is not much sweating, but there is conditioning to be just as sharp on 18 as you are on the first hole.

I think most people agree that the best overall athletes are basketball players. I have seen some guys trying to play in pick-up games that don't look very athletic. Same thing in golf.

Lots of football players don't look athletic, but play at a professional level.

A hole-in-one is a poor analogy to define athleticism, as it is mostly luck, requiring no power. An eagle on a long par 5 would be much more defining.

I'm a better athlete than I am a golfer, but would be a worse golfer if I were a worse athlete.

By and large, I would say the best golfers are also the best athletes, with a heavy dose of skill.

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[Live]

This is a good question. True, golfers don't run or jump, but a swing is DEFINITELY an athletic move, just ask a baseball player. And golfers do spend a lot of time and effort improving their swing and technique, I heard that Tiger does some strength and fitness training.

I would still agree that golf is more of a game or activity than a sport.

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[This message has been edited by Live (edited March 09, 2001).]

[Cohen]

C'mon ya'll, the golf swing requires skill and athleticism...of course we I may not be talking about your swing, but a good one http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/tongue.gif . It may not require much strength, but does demand excellent flexibility and timing. These are 'athletic'. Requiring brute force to be classified as 'sport' or an 'athlete' is probably a distinctly American perspective.

[ChenZhen]

Quoting the article: "Speed, stamina and strength are sports signatures, but you can win at golf without having any of them."

Stamina...I've said this before in another thread and I'll say it again..each hole in golf is about 4 football fields in length I'd say...and you have about 18 holes per day...that is walking roughly 70+ football fields for like 3 or 4 hours in the sun with no rest ...for the tournament, you have four rounds which is about well over 200 football fields for the whole tourney...do that every single week year in year out and see if it takes a toll on you?

Strength, Speed & Power...Could you hit a golf ball as far as those pros?????? Have you seen the speed and the power that goes into the swing of a golfer??? Have you ever been to a pga even and actually see for yourself how far the ball goes??????? It's amazing how strong they are...

since you guys consider football a sport...field goal kickers and punters are considered athletes also right? What about golies in hockey? why not golfers?


[This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited March 10, 2001).]

[ChenZhen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jeff:
It's a sport. A wussie sport, but a sport nonetheless. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif he he he.

</font>

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JuanValdez:
What keeps golf, and race car driving, and horseback riding, skiing, running and a bunch of other stuff from being considered by me to be sport is that there is no defense, so there is no direct competition.
</font>

How about the long jump? Shot putting? etc...You consider those sports? There is no direct competition or defense...you score as high as you can and have no control over the other opponent's score...so you are saying Mike Powell is not an athlete?



[This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited March 10, 2001).]

[ChenZhen]

[This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited March 10, 2001).]

[Ali Cat]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ChenZhen:
BS...I don't buy it...you've played that many courses and still don't think its a sport? wow..unless they are putt-putt courses you listed, that's another story...

IMO, people who have argued against golf being athletes have not even stepped on a golf course before, ever...it looks easy and everything on TV, but try walking ALL 18 holes...

</font>

I'm sorry, but it just isn't demanding physically. I can ride a horse for ten minutes and get more excercise. I HAVE played those courses and they are anything but putt-putt. Look them up. Have you ever heard of the PGA Tour Championship? I spend more time walking to and from class than I do on the golf course. I carry a book bag. Does this make it a sport?? What if I swung a stick as I did it? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

http://www.houstonian.com/golf/index.htm

http://www.redstonecompanies.com/golf/golf.htm

http://www.blackhorsegolfclub.com/


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Poopy!

[This message has been edited by Ali Cat (edited March 10, 2001).]

[ZRB]

Athletes can be golfers, but golfers can not be athletes.

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"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."
-Anti-President Bush

[ChenZhen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ali Cat:
I'm sorry, but it just isn't demanding physically. I can ride a horse for ten minutes and get more excercise. I HAVE played those courses and they are anything but putt-putt. Look them up. Have you ever heard of the PGA Tour Championship? I spend more time walking to and from class than I do on the golf course. I carry a book bag. Does this make it a sport?? What if I swung a stick as I did it? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

http://www.houstonian.com/golf/index.htm

http://www.redstonecompanies.com/golf/golf.htm

http://www.blackhorsegolfclub.com/

</font>

go to yahoo.com and you should find a longer list than that to make it a little more convincing http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

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[JayZ750]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ChenZhen:
BS...I don't buy it...you've played that many courses and still don't think its a sport? wow..unless they are putt-putt courses you listed, that's another story...
</font>

Werent you the one who at first thought these were putt-putt courses. Perhaps you should have gone to yahoo.com yourself first. I mean it is almost as if YOU'VE never played golf before. Either that or you're not from Houston, because any respectable golfer in Houston at least knows about Champions golf course. So what golf courses do you play?? Be sure you look them up first to make sure they're not putt-putt http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

Anywho, nobody is arguing that golf isnt physically or mentally demanding. The argument is just that those qualities doesnt make something a sport or someone an athlete. Otherwise, gardening would be a sport, especially down in Houston. Did you know that in both the Royal Academy and the USGA "rules book" nowhere does it say that you have to walk the courses? Technically, it is perfectly legal and within the framework of the game to ride a cart. These are some of the reasons I consider golf not a sport, but a GAME, and golfers not athletes, but PLAYERS.

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[Steve_Francis_rules]

ChenZhen:
Who cares if golfers walk the length of 70 football fields, that doesn't make them athletes. I'm not an athlete just because I go out and walk four miles over the course of three to four hours.
Walking 18 holes is not hard, I could do it without training.

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[This message has been edited by Steve_Francis_rules (edited March 10, 2001).]

[BobFinn*]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ali Cat:
There is NO and I repeat NO athleticism involved. Yes you have to swing a stick and hit a ball.

</font>

Thank you, I rest my case http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif



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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."-
(Aldous Huxley)

[ChenZhen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steve_Francis_rules:
ChenZhen:
Who cares if golfers walk the length of 70 football fields, that doesn't make them athletes. I'm not an athlete just because I go out and walk four miles over the course of three to four hours.
Walking 18 holes is not hard, I could do it without training.
</font>

You are totally missing my point...I'm not saying golfers are athletes primarily because they walk that far and that long...of course anybody can do that without getting too tired...my point is to prove the article wrong, that stamina and endurance DOES effect your golf game, but not as obvious as other sports though...

I'll put it to the extreme to prove my point for people who have not played golf...I've said this in the casey martin argument months back...

tee up a baseball from the endzone of a football field...now hit it to the opposite endzone...doing it as acurrately as you can over there with decent effort...casually walk over there to the opposite endzone...now hit it back...do that 70 more times for 3 or 4 hours...now on the last attempt take note of how you feel now and how you feel when you first hit it and now try to hit it as accurate as you can...you think you're gonna feel the difference? Imagine golfers have alot of stress also in dealing with the wind, the sun, and the trying to hit it as perfect as possible on every single shot putting a tiny ball on a tiny hole far away...the curves in the putting greens, the trees, the deep sand, water, etc.....will this take a toll on you mentally & physically?


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[ChenZhen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JayZ750:
Werent you the one who at first thought these were putt-putt courses. Perhaps you should have gone to yahoo.com yourself first. I mean it is almost as if YOU'VE never played golf before. Either that or you're not from Houston, because any respectable golfer in Houston at least knows about Champions golf course. So what golf courses do you play?? Be sure you look them up first to make sure they're not putt-putt http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

Anywho, nobody is arguing that golf isnt physically or mentally demanding. The argument is just that those qualities doesnt make something a sport or someone an athlete. Otherwise, gardening would be a sport, especially down in Houston. Did you know that in both the Royal Academy and the USGA "rules book" nowhere does it say that you have to walk the courses? Technically, it is perfectly legal and within the framework of the game to ride a cart. These are some of the reasons I consider golf not a sport, but a GAME, and golfers not athletes, but PLAYERS.
</font>

I was being sarcastic about that putt-putt comment dude, I knew they were real golf courses. I've heard of them before, I'm just implying she may have looked it up or heard of it and have never laid her hands on a golf club...I just can't stand people who have to make up something, taking advantage of them being anonymous on the net...even though they havn't experienced it themselves to prove a point...that's all

I normally play at Sharpstown and Bear Creek...I suck at it and get worst and worst the more I play http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

read the artical again...it's saying it takes no stamina, speed and strength to play the game...saying that it's not even a sport...isn't that the backbone of your argument?

JayZ, I'm assuming you've never played the game before either...try going to the driving range for a few hours and tell me if it takes some athleticm to just hit the damn ball...Like Jeff said, golf is a wussy sport, but a sport nonetheless...

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[Ali Cat]

Allright you jerk. I didnt make that stuff up because my father's company, Redstone, BUILT three of them and we are members at Champions. That's right we CONTROL those golf courses. I HAVE played golf before and it is NOT A SPORT. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/mad.gif

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Poopy!

[JayZ750]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ChenZhen:
I was being sarcastic about that putt-putt comment dude, I knew they were real golf courses. I've heard of them before, I'm just implying she may have looked it up or heard of it and have never laid her hands on a golf club...I just can't stand people who have to make up something, taking advantage of them being anonymous on the net...even though they havn't experienced it themselves to prove a point...that's all
</font>

Often I would agree with you, but she is my girlfriend and therefore I can backup everything she says http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

It is funny because she doesnt care for golf too much, yet her whole family is in on it. Redstonecompanies owns the Houstonian country club/golf course and recently built Shadow Hawk off Grand Parkway (Paul Marchand, recent captain of the President's Cup, is the head pro there) and the new course at BlackHorse.

Regardless, my point remains. Yes, it may be difficult to drive a golf ball if youve never done it before. But it is also difficult and physically challenging to be a gardener if youve never done it before. With practice, though, both can become achievable. And, both situations can also be related to competition (dont laugh, you now there are gardening conventions, competition and all). The only difference really is that if you PLAY golf and get good at it you can make millions of dollars because nobody really cares to watch people garden (hence no tv revenues). I just fail to call something a sport just because it is popular. You tell me, why should golfing be a sport and gardening not??



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[mrpaige]

As long as we can agree that figure skating isn't a sport, I don't care what we think about golf. I'm going to go with the idea that golf is close enough to a sport to be a sport. But figure skating (and gymnastics for that matter) is nowhere near a sport.

And, for the record, I spent most of my childhood wishing I could join the Pro Gardening Tour (or PGT, as it is known to fans of the sport of gardening). Thanks for bringing up such a painful memory.

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[This message has been edited by mrpaige (edited March 12, 2001).]

[ChenZhen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ali Cat:
Allright you jerk. I didnt make that stuff up because my father's company, Redstone, BUILT three of them and we are members at Champions. That's right we CONTROL those golf courses. I HAVE played golf before and it is NOT A SPORT. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/mad.gif
</font>

Ali, I apologize for my rude comments. Didn't mean to be an a$$ and to judge you in any way without me knowing anything...it was in the heat of moment...I tried holding it back, but just couldn't...it squirted out http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

I believe you, really...no hard feelings ya? JayZ, we are arguing about something so small and useless...lets call it a draw http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif



[This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited March 12, 2001).]

[BobFinn*]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JuanValdez:
Tiger Woods might be the most athletic guy in the world, but we don't get to see it when he plays golf.

</font>

You try hitting a golf ball 120 yards (on to the green) while standing in weeds up to your chest.



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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."-
(Aldous Huxley)

[JuanValdez]

What would that prove?

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[bobrek]

The question becomes who is an athlete. Are all basketball players athletes (think of George Muresan), how about baseball players (think of Mickey Lolich, David Wells, Fred Galdding), how about the 380 pound offensive lineman - is he an athlete simply because he is big and strong?

All professionals in the major sports as well as golf have athletic ability but that doesn't necessarily mean they are athletes. Haven't many of us seen a pitcher run the bases and know we are better baserunners?

Tiger Woods may train as hard as Eddie George so in that respect, he is an athlete, but if you look at Craig Stadler, he isn't the prototypical athlete, yet he has athletic ability.

Tiger Woods is an athlete regardless of his sport.



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[Ali Cat]

Apology accepted. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif JayZ says it is all good with him. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Poopy!

[BobFinn*]

Well said bobrek

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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."-
(Aldous Huxley)

[4chuckie]

My definition of an aththlete is someone who can excel in most activities. Bo Jackson was a great athlete, as was Deion Sanders. They both played at the highest level of both sports.
Think back to your younger days and think about the guys, or girls, who were good at everything they did (all sports) those were the athletes.
So under my circumstances it's a case by case basis, but honestly I couldn't see many golfers being great at many other sports, although there are many athletes who are also golfers.

[JuanValdez]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ChenZhen:
How about the long jump? Shot putting? etc...You consider those sports? There is no direct competition or defense...you score as high as you can and have no control over the other opponent's score...so you are saying Mike Powell is not an athlete?
</font>

Sorry I took so long before jumping back into the argument. Weekends. To answer your questions, I would like to not consider the following as sports: long jump, shot putting, and any other track & field activity. Likewise, figure-skating, race-car driving, horseback riding and golf.

I would like to parse it out and say there are competitions, of which sports are a subcategory. Racing is another category. Games of skill (like golf or archery, etc) are yet another.

But, I think it is probably wrong to equate a sport-player with an athlete. Not everyone who plays a sport is an athlete (for example, me) and not all athletes play sports. Sprinters are certainly athletes, but sprinting is not a sport.

I would say, though, that golf and golfers fall out of both categories of sport and athlete. Golf isn't a sport due to the nature of the game. Golfers aren't athletes because of the rigor of the exercise. Tiger Woods might be the most athletic guy in the world, but we don't get to see it when he plays golf.

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