Obama Will Rob Us of the American Dream

[Trader_Jorge]

Obama does not believe in the American Dream -- the chance to become wildly successful. Listen as he reveals his deep seated beliefs in wealth redistribution. Listen as he reveals his racial focus, and how he makes white executives the scapegoat for blacks' underperformance in schools. He truly feels, in his heart of hearts, that money should be spread around. He this confirms the words that he has spoken, time and again. We wants to take money from those who have taken risks and worked hard to succeed, and then give that hard earned money to people who live off of the government.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/t7fi8STNlxM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/t7fi8STNlxM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

How does this advance the American Dream? Obama simply does not understand America and what makes it great. You hate to say it, but this is likely the direct result of listening to his cadre of American-hating advisors, one of whom is Jeremiah Wright.

Note also how much he has changed his speaking style and the words he chooses -- in an attempt to market himself to Americans who do not share his values.

[Batman Jones]

the chance to become wildly successful.

I stopped reading there. That is not the American Dream.

The American Dream is opportunity for all.

[Trader_Jorge]

The American Dream is opportunity for all.

You are as socialist as Obama if you believe that. That's NOT the American Dream, Batman. Opportunity is created by hard work and preparation, NOT by the government sending you the money that other people worked to earn. The government sending money to lazy people who won't work is not how you create opportunity, you buffoon. Opportunity is created by INCENTIVES and MOTIVATION. That leads to hard work and productivity. Handing money to poor people who won't work and have no ambition is a waste of time. It takes money from those who have the drive needed to succeed, the drive needed to take risks and create jobs, and hands that money to people who will squander it.

Don't believe me? Here's wiki's explanation of the American Dream:

The American Dream is belief in the freedom that allows all citizens and residents of the United States to achieve their goals in life through hard work. Today, it often refers to one's material prosperity, which is dependent upon one's abilities and work ethic, and not on a rigid class structure.

Batman, you have a lot to learn about people if you believe that opportunity is created by redistributing money from earners to squanderers.

[DaDakota]

Trader,

Did Clinton rob us of the American dream? Did Carter?

This over the top BS nonsense is why McCain is getting clobbered......come up with ways to fix this...

Fear is not an issue anymore.

DD

[DonnyMost]

I'm hearing it, but I'm not seeing it.

Radio_Jorge.

[pgabriel]

interesting thoughts on what obama thinks about education, of course its a lie

here what he actually says http://obama.senate.gov/issues/education/

However, while we work together to improve our schools, there is no substitute for strong parental involvement. Because education begins at home, parents must set high standards and inspirational examples for their children. As a father, Senator Obama believes we need to find the time and the energy to help motivate our kids to love learning. Parents can read to their children, discuss what they read, and make time for this by turning off the TV.

nice try though

[hotblooded]

someone is getting O-so deseprate

[Rocketman95]

Yeah, a person raised by a single mother and his maternal grandparents who didn't have legacies to get him into Columbia or Harvard Law and who worked his way up to become a multi-millionaire doesn't believe in the "American Dream".

What a joke. I can't wait until I wake up November 5th when I can call him President-elect Obama! THAT, my friends, is the American Dream.

[DonnyMost]

Yeah, a person raised by a single mother and his maternal grandparents who didn't have legacies to get him into Columbia or Harvard Law and who worked his way up to become a multi-millionaire doesn't believe in the "American Dream".

What a joke. I can't wait until I wake up November 5th when I can call him President-elect Obama! THAT, my friends, is the American Dream.


Scratch the "multi" part.

His net worth is 1.3 million :)

[FranchiseBlade]

Yeah, a person raised by a single mother and his maternal grandparents who didn't have legacies to get him into Columbia or Harvard Law and who worked his way up to become a multi-millionaire doesn't believe in the "American Dream".

What a joke. I can't wait until I wake up November 5th when I can call him President-elect Obama! THAT, my friends, is the American Dream.
I want to repeat this a million times. Obama didn't come from a wealthy family, had to work hard to pay for his school, and even get into the schools he went to, and worked hard to achieve everything he got.

Obama IS the American dream. He's a shining example of what can be done with hard work, and dedication.

[rhadamanthus]

I want to repeat this a million times. Obama didn't come from a wealthy family, had to work hard to pay for his school, and even get into the schools he went to, and worked hard to achieve everything he got.

Obama IS the American dream. He's a shining example of what can be done with hard work, and dedication.

Ditto.

Let me add:

In conclusion, die-hard wingnuts can go f themselves.

[yaoluv]

Trader,

Did Clinton rob us of the American dream? Did Carter?

This over the top BS nonsense is why McCain is getting clobbered......come up with ways to fix this...

Fear is not an issue anymore.

DD

EXACTLY!!

Its actually quite hilarious. Obama wants to raise taxes to Bill Clinton levels. Even less than Clinton for many in the middle class.

Yet, Mccain and his disciples scream and shout about Barack turning America into a socialist state.

But the voters are smarter than that. The 90s were a time for businesses and Americans. So many people decided to take the leap and start companies ( .com and otherwise ).

It just doesn't hold water that Americans were discouraged from starting businesses and pursuing the American dream under Clinton in the 90s. Its just not true. And that is why Mccain will lose.

[mc mark]

:D

This is really pretty funny considering Jr presided over the greatest re-distribution of wealth in our nation’s history bailing out Wall Street.

[pgabriel]

:D

This is really pretty funny considering Jr presided over the greatest re-distribution of wealth in our nation’s history bailing out Wall Street.


its not redistribution when you give to businesses

[pgabriel]

i wonder if this is tj's last stand, i mean he got black people don't do well in school, wright, and socialists all in one post.

[DonnyMost]

i wonder if this is tj's last stand, i mean he got black people don't do well in school, wright, and socialists all in one post.

they tried the race card, then terrorism, then abortion... there isn't much left except the classic class warfare stuff.

[Behad]

Quoted from the video:

...and that is the tendency for one group to try to suppress another group in the interest of power or greed or resources or what have you...

Opportunity is created by INCENTIVES and MOTIVATION. That leads to hard work and productivity. Handing money to poor people who won't work and have no ambition is a waste of time. It takes money from those who have the drive needed to succeed, the drive needed to take risks and create jobs, and hands that money to people who will squander it.



You just proved Obama's point. By lumping all of the inner city ethnic groups into one - a group that, by your own admission, wants nothing but handouts and freebies without having to work for it - you have suppressed millions of Americans. Your attitude is borderline racist. Check that....you are a racist pig.


Quoted from the video:
Which "group" are you part of" Did you suppress anyone for power or greed or resources?

Well, Trader_Idiot....which group are you a part of?

[Trader_Jorge]

EXACTLY!!

Its actually quite hilarious. Obama wants to raise taxes to Bill Clinton levels. Even less than Clinton for many in the middle class.


That's an oversimplification that Obama is using in a disingenuous manner to convince the gullible that it's a good idea to redistribute wealth. The problem here isn't that taxes are too low. The problem is spending is too high and interest rates were too low a few years ago. Taxes should be CUT right now to stimulate the economy. Raising them is a Depression-area false move that will only make things worse, as more money supply will leave the economy. The goal here is LIQUIDITY and CONFIDENCE. Raising taxes achieves neither goal.

Obama has sold you fools that a bill of goods that is false. This financial crisis can not be over-simplified (although that IS the only way his drones will understand something) by saying that taxes are going up to Clinton levels. That's stupid and it's false. The economy is much more than just tax levels and where they were 10 years ago. Wake up people. Or better yet, educate yourselves.

[Major]

John McCain, American socialist:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/mccain-socialis.html

Responding to a question from a girl who wants to know why her her father, a doctor, pays a higher tax rate than people who earn less:

McCain: "I think it's to some degree because we feel, obviously, that wealthy people can afford more."

Doctor's daughter: Aren't we getting closer and closer to, like, socialism and stuff?

McCain: "Here's what I really believe. When you are, reach a certain level of comfort, there is nothing wrong with paying somewhat more."

[durvasa]

John McCain, American socialist:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/mccain-socialis.html

Responding to a question from a girl who wants to know why her her father, a doctor, pays a higher tax rate than people who earn less:

McCain: "I think it's to some degree because we feel, obviously, that wealthy people can afford more."

Doctor's daughter: Aren't we getting closer and closer to, like, socialism and stuff?

McCain: "Here's what I really believe. When you are, reach a certain level of comfort, there is nothing wrong with paying somewhat more."

In other words, there's nothing wrong with "spreading the wealth".

[Master Baiter]

The "American Dream" has been perverted into a disgusting caricature of itself. The American Dream isn't about trying to compete with the Joneses or trying to live your own version of Cribs. Our new version of the American Dream is a sham and it has been implemented to get all of our money.

My family and I went to Sweden this summer for about a month and spent time with my wifes family. One of the things that I enjoyed the most is the fact that people have less and they are content with that. People actually care about everyone else, their well being, their health, and the environment. People are happy. They spend time with their kids and family. They seem to do the stuff that we "don't have time" for. I'd give up my big house and big car and all of my crap to have that kind of contentment. If that is socialism then sign me up.

[Rocketman95]

The "American Dream" has been perverted into a disgusting caricature of itself. The American Dream isn't about trying to compete with the Joneses or trying to live your own version of Cribs. Our new version of the American Dream is a sham and it has been implemented to get all of our money.

My family and I went to Sweden this summer for about a month and spent time with my wifes family. One of the things that I enjoyed the most is the fact that people have less and they are content with that. People actually care about everyone else, their well being, their health, and the environment. People are happy. They spend time with their kids and family. They seem to do the stuff that we "don't have time" for. I'd give up my big house and big car and all of my crap to have that kind of contentment. If that is socialism then sign me up.

You socialist un-American pig. :p

[Bandwagoner]

My family and I went to Sweden this summer for about a month and spent time with my wifes family. One of the things that I enjoyed the most is the fact that people have less and they are content with that. People actually care about everyone else, their well being, their health, and the environment. People are happy. They spend time with their kids and family. They seem to do the stuff that we "don't have time" for. I'd give up my big house and big car and all of my crap to have that kind of contentment. If that is socialism then sign me up.
you picked up all that in a month did ya?

I'll take my lower tax rates and buy my own happiness. 50% just isn't sittting well with me considering it will be going to waste anyways.

[gifford1967]

The "American Dream" has been perverted into a disgusting caricature of itself. The American Dream isn't about trying to compete with the Joneses or trying to live your own version of Cribs. Our new version of the American Dream is a sham and it has been implemented to get all of our money.

My family and I went to Sweden this summer for about a month and spent time with my wifes family. One of the things that I enjoyed the most is the fact that people have less and they are content with that. People actually care about everyone else, their well being, their health, and the environment. People are happy. They spend time with their kids and family. They seem to do the stuff that we "don't have time" for. I'd give up my big house and big car and all of my crap to have that kind of contentment. If that is socialism then sign me up.


That sounds like pure hell.

[gifford1967]

you picked up all that in a month did ya?




Don't be a twit.

You don't think he could get a good sense of the country/society by living with his wife's family for a month?

[Behad]

The "American Dream" has been perverted into a disgusting caricature of itself. The American Dream isn't about trying to compete with the Joneses or trying to live your own version of Cribs. Our new version of the American Dream is a sham and it has been implemented to get all of our money.

My family and I went to Sweden this summer for about a month and spent time with my wifes family. One of the things that I enjoyed the most is the fact that people have less and they are content with that. People actually care about everyone else, their well being, their health, and the environment. People are happy. They spend time with their kids and family. They seem to do the stuff that we "don't have time" for. I'd give up my big house and big car and all of my crap to have that kind of contentment. If that is socialism then sign me up.


When my wife was pregnant with our second child 17 years ago, we made a conscience decision for her to quit work and stay at home with the kids. Sure, we knew we would have to do without some things, and that money would be tight at times. But we felt it would be the right thing to do.

17 years later, all three of my kids are well behaved, well mannered, don't get into trouble and all do well at school. Have we sacrificed? That depends on the definition of sacrifice. We absolutely did not sacrifice our kids upbringing. Sure, I drive a 14 year old truck to save money, our house is not as big as others have, and we do things ourselves instead of hiring people to do them. I don't consider any of those things "sacrifices".

In my opinion, my family has been living the American dream for many many years. But according to Trader_Idiot, I can't be living the American dream because I am not "wildly successful".

If only I was a white male living in the suburbs....oh wait.....I am.
I'm so confused.

[Rocketman95]

you picked up all that in a month did ya?

I'll take my lower tax rates and buy my own happiness. 50% just isn't sittting well with me considering it will be going to waste anyways.

I hear Ireland's nice this time of year.

[Bandwagoner]

Don't be a twit.

You don't think he could get a good sense of the country/society by living with his wife's family for a month?

no, I stayed in scotland and China for over a month, a month is nothing.

[Bandwagoner]

I hear Ireland's nice this time of year.
I prefer scotland, glasgow is awesome.

Not really "nice" though. Cold and raining is more like it.

[rhadamanthus]

I'll take my lower tax rates and buy my own happiness.

I wish you the best of luck in said endeavour, even though prudence would indicate it's doomed to failure.

Great posts from MB and Behad. My wife is going to stop working at the end of the year to stay home with my daughter. It's going to be difficult to adjust, without a doubt.

Having thought about the exact scenario MB describes many times, I find that the worst part of the american rat-race is that it really sucks you in. And I don't mean that in a trite way either - it's enormously difficult to lower one's so-called standard of living, no matter how much of that is mere materialism. The real cost of our "cultural capitalism" is the continued reinforcement that wealth somehow equates to success and happiness.

I could go on and on about this, but I'm no saint or lecturer. I imagine that I am very similar to MB - disgusted with this lackluster life based on material demands and unnecessary stress - yet incapable of figuring out how to abandon the mindset and society that propogates it. Maybe I'm getting there... but I'm not sure.


EDIT: MB - if you have any thoughts on this I'd love to hear them...

[dandorotik]

The "American Dream" has been perverted into a disgusting caricature of itself. The American Dream isn't about trying to compete with the Joneses or trying to live your own version of Cribs. Our new version of the American Dream is a sham and it has been implemented to get all of our money.

My family and I went to Sweden this summer for about a month and spent time with my wifes family. One of the things that I enjoyed the most is the fact that people have less and they are content with that. People actually care about everyone else, their well being, their health, and the environment. People are happy. They spend time with their kids and family. They seem to do the stuff that we "don't have time" for. I'd give up my big house and big car and all of my crap to have that kind of contentment. If that is socialism then sign me up.

Yes, my best friend married a woman from Sweden and he has mentioned roughly the same thing. Trust me (better yet, trust the highly successful entrepreneurs), if someone is intelligent AND lucky enough to become a millionaire in this country, they are going to do so whether there is a Democrat or Republican in the White House. If my relatively small circle of friends is any indication, there is a LOT of inherited wealth in this county- many of these individuals are just as lazy, if not more so, than the poor and disenfranchised.

Trader_Jorge's rant is classic textbook right-wing paranoia- "they're going to take all my hard-earned money....African-Americans are the problem...the liberals hate the American dream...." Come on, that's the best you got? Even Palin is more creative than that.

[KingCheetah]

This socialist shtick was worn out weeks ago...

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9720/conquistadorcopyts1.jpg

[Bullard4Life]

We wants to take money from those who have taken risks and worked hard to succeed, and then give that hard earned money to people who live off of the government.

http://notsocalm.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/racist-lolcat-1.jpg

[Master Baiter]

you picked up all that in a month did ya?

I'll take my lower tax rates and buy my own happiness. 50% just isn't sittting well with me considering it will be going to waste anyways.
Yeah, I picked all of that up in a month.

It isn't like we were staying in a hotel travelling. We were living with people that live there every day of their lives. Do they have problems? Of course, but they also have a complete different set of priorities. They have a peace about them that I know I don't have and I had never seen with anyone here in the states.

It also wasn't something that I saw immediately and that I don't think that you could ever see if you weren't staying with locals. I saw how they work, live, and play. I saw how families spent time together on a daily basis. I saw how families had time to go fishing with their kids after work.

The last two years I paid 33% in taxes. Yeah, they may pay 50% in taxes there but when I look at it, that's only 1/6th more than what I paid. I also know that while their system isn't perfect, their government works 1000 times harder than our to try and help them. I'd gladly pay the extra in taxes to get the benefits that they receive.

The problem is that I don't think that Americans and the American government would be able to work like theirs. We do not have the mentality to help our neighbors. It's not just people like you, even though you are a part of the problem, it's a whole culture of "getting mine". It's like that with all cross sections of society regardless if you are rich, poor, or in between. It doesn't matter if you are a part of the government or not. It's just beat into us from a very young age.

I served in the military voluntarily when I graduated high school. It wasn't because I couldn't go to college, I had scholarships. It was because I was proud of being an American and I wanted to serve my country. Today, I'm ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed of our country and what we stand for. I'm ashamed of how we have become so arrogant that we do not care what everyone thinks of us.

Our country needs change and while I like Obama and his message, I do not think that he is enough. We need a serious change in our way of thinking and our priorities. We need a complete culture change.

[Bandwagoner]

The problem is that I don't think that Americans and the American government would be able to work like theirs. We do not have the mentality to help our neighbors. It's not just people like you, even though you are a part of the problem, it's a whole culture of "getting mine". It's like that with all cross sections of society regardless if you are rich, poor, or in between. It doesn't matter if you are a part of the government or not. It's just beat into us from a very young age.

I served in the military voluntarily when I graduated high school. It wasn't because I couldn't go to college, I had scholarships. It was because I was proud of being an American and I wanted to serve my country. Today, I'm ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed of our country and what we stand for. I'm ashamed of how we have become so arrogant that we do not care what everyone thinks of us.


I help people every single day. I am much better at it than the .gov is, so why should my money go to FEMA who cannot get ice to my neighbors for 3 days when I got them ice and water on saterday?

I stayed with the "locals" in china and scotland. In china they had no time with their families, they worked all day everyday.

Sweden has much more money than us per capita. Get real and wake up. The world is changing and if our priorities as americans are more free time and recreation thos in India and china whose priority is to make enough money to support 3 generation of people (parents themselves and children) we will lose.

[Nice Rollin]

im still wondering how obama is a socialist. i mean the CEO of exxon should not be paying the same tax rate as the single mother with a kid and two jobs...not too sure how that's socialism. seems like fairness and common sense.

[rhadamanthus]

we will lose.

This is where you lose me. I don't know what it is we are "losing" that's so heinous... and I seriously doubt you can answer that question either.

[rhadamanthus]

im still wondering how obama is a socialist.

Obama is only socialist if you have no fscking clue what socialism is.

[Jugdish]

I help people every single day. I am much better at it than the .gov is, so why should my money go to FEMA who cannot get ice to my neighbors for 3 days when I got them ice and water on saterday?

I stayed with the "locals" in china and scotland. In china they had no time with their families, they worked all day everyday.

Sweden has much more money than us per capita. Get real and wake up. The world is changing and if our priorities as americans are more free time and recreation thos in India and china whose priority is to make enough money to support 3 generation of people (parents themselves and children) we will lose.

He said nothing of China.

And what are we trying to win?

[Master Baiter]

I wish you the best of luck in said endeavour, even though prudence would indicate it's doomed to failure.

Great posts from MB and Behad. My wife is going to stop working at the end of the year to stay home with my daughter. It's going to be difficult to adjust, without a doubt.

Having thought about the exact scenario MB describes many times, I find that the worst part of the american rat-race is that it really sucks you in. And I don't mean that in a trite way either - it's enormously difficult to lower one's so-called standard of living, no matter how much of that is mere materialism. The real cost of our "cultural capitalism" is the continued reinforcement that wealth somehow equates to success and happiness.

I could go on and on about this, but I'm no saint or lecturer. I imagine that I am very similar to MB - disgusted with this lackluster life based on material demands and unnecessary stress - yet incapable of figuring out how to abandon the mindset and society that propogates it. Maybe I'm getting there... but I'm not sure.


EDIT: MB - if you have any thoughts on this I'd love to hear them...
You hit the nail on the head. The night before we left to come back home my wife and I were sitting at her cousin's table and talking about that exact same thing, the rat race. The idea of coming back here and getting involved in it again just completely broke me down. I just sat there with my face in my hands and cried. It was a life changing moment.

I have kids from my previous marriage and they live with heir mom here in Houston. They are the only things that are keeping us here and when they are grown, we will almost definitely move over there. In the mean time, I don't know how to get out of the rat race. I wish I did because like you said, it is all consuming. We just try to do the best we can.

I said it in a previous post but America needs a complete culture change to make it better. I thought that maybe a severe financial crisis would be a good thing for Americans. I was totally against the bailout and still am. I thought that perhaps having a rough time for a couple of years might help people live within their means and bring people together a little more.

I seriously have no idea how to fix it.

[rhadamanthus]

You hit the nail on the head. The night before we left to come back home my wife and I were sitting at her cousin's table and talking about that exact same thing, the rat race. The idea of coming back here and getting involved in it again just completely broke me down. I just sat there with my face in my hands and cried. It was a life changing moment.

I have kids from my previous marriage and they live with heir mom here in Houston. They are the only things that are keeping us here and when they are grown, we will almost definitely move over there. In the mean time, I don't know how to get out of the rat race. I wish I did because like you said, it is all consuming. We just try to do the best we can.

I said it in a previous post but America needs a complete culture change to make it better. I thought that maybe a severe financial crisis would be a good thing for Americans. I was totally against the bailout and still am. I thought that perhaps having a rough time for a couple of years might help people live within their means and bring people together a little more.

I seriously have no idea how to fix it.

I have given thought to moving many times. That's not so easy either, unfortunately. Of course, since my savings are already wrecked now, I guess I could just say "**** it", sell out and move...

I'm with you on the culture change. It needs to happen, but it will be furiously resisted until when it happens, it happens violently...

Maybe that makes me too pessimistic for some to feel credible. I don't know...

[rhadamanthus]

Have you given thought to how you will move, MB?

[Master Baiter]

I help people every single day. I am much better at it than the .gov is, so why should my money go to FEMA who cannot get ice to my neighbors for 3 days when I got them ice and water on saterday?

I stayed with the "locals" in china and scotland. In china they had no time with their families, they worked all day everyday.

Sweden has much more money than us per capita. Get real and wake up. The world is changing and if our priorities as americans are more free time and recreation thos in India and china whose priority is to make enough money to support 3 generation of people (parents themselves and children) we will lose.
I don't know what China has to do with this but ok.

I think that people's priorities should be to spend more time with their families and the people important to them. I think their priorities should also include having enough and being content with enough. America's definition of enough is warped.

[Master Baiter]

I have given thought to moving many times. That's not so easy either, unfortunately. Of course, since my savings are already wrecked now, I guess I could just say "**** it", sell out and move...

I'm with you on the culture change. It needs to happen, but it will be furiously resisted until when it happens, it happens violently...

Maybe that makes me too pessimistic for some to feel credible. I don't know...
I share your pessimism and intentionally left it out because I too felt that it would diminish my credibility. I think it's going to be a huge mess but I feel it is inevitible. America is going to reap what it has sown eventually and it is not going to be pretty.

Have you given thought to how you will move, MB?
Maybe I'm being pessimistic again but we figure that if the **** really hits the fan we will go over there with nothing. Plenty of people have immigrated to other countries, especially the US, with absolutley nothing and did ok eventually.

If the **** doesn't completely hit the fan we hope to keep a house here, hopefully paid off or close to being paid off, by the time the kids are grown. We have about 10 more years until my daughter graduates high school. We hope to sell our house that we have now and get something smaller that is easier to maintain. If that is the case we would keep a place here and have a place over there as well.

Then we have the option of going back and forth. I do IT consulting from my house and can do it anywhere I have an internet connection. I worked the whole time I was over there.

We took them with us to Europe this summer and are planting the seeds early to maybe get them to go to college over there. We will see though.

One thing that we have going for us is that my wife is a Swedish citizen and all of her family is over there. If we go, or had to go, we have a support system in place. We have family to stay with until we get on our feet. My swedish is very suspect right now but I feel confident that I could pick it up being over there all the time. I picked up a TON in a month. It also doesn't hurt that everyone knows English.

I actually looked at the job market when we were over there and there are quite a few jobs in my area of expertise and they pay well. That was encouraging.

As for someone that doesn't have family in another country, I have no idea how to get over there. I'd learn another language for sure. While they all know English proficiently, everyone I talked to still wanted me to know the local language. I'd try to find a job that has connections overseas and inquire about a transfer. Our best friends think like we do and have look hard into moving to Europe but it's difficult to get a visa without a job.

Maybe if we brainstorm enough we can figure it out ;)

[rhadamanthus]

Being a EU citizen (dual) with family in Germany is also helpful - but damn the job market is really rough right now (at least in my line of work).

Of course, just talking about this puts the two of us on the "commie anti-american hate list" amongst some of our less-intelligent bbs brethren. Trust me, I know - I got a ****storm of anger when I mentioned my interest in dual citizenship on here some time ago.

[Master Baiter]

Being a EU citizen (dual) with family in Germany is also helpful - but damn the job market is really rough right now (at least in my line of work).

Of course, just talking about this puts the two of us on the "commie anti-american hate list" amongst some of our less-intelligent bbs brethren. Trust me, I know - I got a ****storm of anger when I mentioned my interest in dual citizenship on here some time ago.
Good deal. That definitely helps then. I'm pretty sure that you can get a job anywhere in the EU, not just Germany. I don't know what you do but while there may not be anything in Germany, their very well may be something in another country.

Yeah, I know that what we think is definitely not popular with a lot of people but I don't care.

[rhadamanthus]

Good deal. That definitely helps then. I'm pretty sure that you can get a job anywhere in the EU, not just Germany. I don't know what you do but while there may not be anything in Germany, their very well may be something in another country.



True, I can work most anywhere with the EU passport... but the problem then is usually language, unfortunately.

[BasketballReasons]

Being a EU citizen (dual) with family in Germany is also helpful - but damn the job market is really rough right now (at least in my line of work).

Of course, just talking about this puts the two of us on the "commie anti-american hate list" amongst some of our less-intelligent bbs brethren. Trust me, I know - I got a ****storm of anger when I mentioned my interest in dual citizenship on here some time ago.

Don't forget this is Texas, not California of the East coast. This is the dirty south. Most Texans still shoot whatever they shoot and sleep with a gun under there pillow if the black slave comes to rob some cash! I lived in Texas and know live in Europe. I know best of both worlds and worst of both worlds. Open mindnessness is defintely in USA's con's...

[Master Baiter]

True, I can work most anywhere with the EU passport... but the problem then is usually language, unfortunately.
Learn them all :D

[Major]

I help people every single day. I am much better at it than the .gov is, so why should my money go to FEMA who cannot get ice to my neighbors for 3 days when I got them ice and water on saterday?


Because you can't get ice and water to 2 million people if the need arises, whether it be in 3 days or 3 months.


Sweden has much more money than us per capita. Get real and wake up. The world is changing and if our priorities as americans are more free time and recreation thos in India and china whose priority is to make enough money to support 3 generation of people (parents themselves and children) we will lose.

Depends - is your goal happiness or wealth? There are people who are dirt poor in Africa who live lower stress, more content lives than people here who have plenty of success.

[bnb]

Y'all can live the ol' euro lifestyle right in the US of A if you choose.

It might mean a smaller house, older car, fewer premium channels on the TV, mowing your own lawn, cleaning your own house, and attending fewer Texan's games. Or it might not. The American dream should be about the freedom to do as you choose, no?

And if you're self employed....you should be able to structure your work around your family to an extent. If you had an extra work project, you'd find time for it...so why not for your kid? or spouse?

The treadmill keeps getting faster because you're pushing on it harder. Step off. Next time you go to Europe for a month -- don't be bringing work there! Lots of economic trouble in Europe too.

We're doing the Behad plan right now. Mom's at home with young'uns. Older cars, TV, fewer gadgets. But we're still doing 6 weeks holidays away from home plus weekend getaways and I'm doing my best to structure my work to be home for dinner everynight.

[rhadamanthus]

Learn them all :D

That's quite a challenge. ;)

My uncle (portugese) speaks/reads/writes 7 languages. I stink at trying to learn two!

[BasketballReasons]

The American dream should be about the freedom to do as you choose, no?


Yes but freedom stops where others freedom violation starts. And thats the whole problem of the us politics these last 8 years. They have been violating others freedom without even asking, and that is against your own constitution, and your own "american dream".

[Master Baiter]

That's quite a challenge. ;)

My uncle (portugese) speaks/reads/writes 7 languages. I stink at trying to learn two!
Yeah, my wife knows 3 fluently and a couple more pretty well. It is really difficult to learn another language here because we just aren't around it enough. I absolutely see why people in Europe have little problem with English since it is everywhere.

One thing that has helped me, when I have time to do it, is Rosetta Stone. It is really great.

[MadMax]

Don't forget this is Texas, not California of the East coast. This is the dirty south. Most Texans still shoot whatever they shoot and sleep with a gun under there pillow if the black slave comes to rob some cash! I lived in Texas and know live in Europe. I know best of both worlds and worst of both worlds. Open mindnessness is defintely in USA's con's...

you seem very openminded and one who doesn't generalize other people very much.

[Nice Rollin]

how can obama rob something bush has already taken?

[BasketballReasons]

you seem very openminded and one who doesn't generalize other people very much.

Yeah i'm just fed up losing money because of some decisions a president who is not mine made. I get quite overrexcited, I know all Texans aren't like that, I lived 10 years in Houston ^^

[bnb]

You seem very angry Freddy. We're much more relaxed this side of the pond. Perhaps it's the good living?

[BasketballReasons]

You seem very angry Freddy. We're much more relaxed this side of the pond. Perhaps it's the good living?

Yeah perhaps it is. Maybe because I think of the future and don't pollute the world selfishely? Maybe because I don't support a useless war that has put the world in deep ****. Maybe because i'm fed up with people who think that there vote doesn't count and doesn't have an impact on other peoples lives.

And btw, the name is fredv, not Freddy. Talking to people by there name is a sign of respect, you could atleast show that to the rest of the world. Start rebuilding your reputation and respect the constitutions you have signed and your allies.

[MadMax]

Yeah i'm just fed up losing money because of some decisions a president who is not mine made.


i think bush is among the worst presidents we've ever had....

but you're not losing money merely because of george w. bush. this problem is a lot bigger than george w. bush.

[Another Brother]

I haven't seen a black slave in years. Good thing, they might get shot.

[MadMax]

I haven't seen a black slave in years. Good thing, they might get shot.

get dave's email??

he's getting some interesting responses :)

[ima_drummer2k]

The American Dream is whatever you want it or don’t want it to be. Who says making a lot of money and being a good family man are mutually exclusive? There are plenty of people right here in America with 6 and 7 figure salaries who still manage to be good spouses/parents while tithing 10% to the church or other charities. Problem is we don’t hear about them on the news every night.

MB and rhada – I hear what you’re saying but I think leaving the country is a little extreme. There are plenty of people like the people you describe in EU that are right here in America. Probably more than you think.

I think yall should stay right here in America. If you go to EU, you might become someone as bitter and miserable as fredv. And who wants that?

I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with not wanting to pay more taxes to what we all agree on is a broken government.

[BasketballReasons]

i think bush is among the worst presidents we've ever had....

but you're not losing money merely because of george w. bush. this problem is a lot bigger than george w. bush.

I perfectly understand that Bush is not the #1 responsible and it would be a lie to say so. However, the Bush administration in general was a complete fail. And I've been trying to show that everything is inter-connected, and things such as the crisis we are living right know started a long long time ago. What I'm angry at is that the administration didn't do anything to try to solve it and I don't understand how people can vote for someone who has ideas to continue on the misguiding ideas that have ruined America...

[Master Baiter]

MB and rhada – I hear what you’re saying but I think leaving the country is a little extreme. There are plenty of people like the people you describe in EU that are right here in America. Probably more than you think.

I think yall should stay right here in America. If you go to EU, you might become someone as bitter and miserable as fredv. And who wants that?
I don't think that you can "experience" it here in America until there is a culture change. I never thought it would be as different until I experienced it and I'd been told about it for years before we went.

There are a lot of people like fredv and I don't blame them one bit. The US has been a terrible neighbor in the global neighborhood. I think they are entitled to be pissed off. If the roles were reversed, you damn well know Americans would be. No one likes arrogance and America is ridiculously arrogant and wasteful.

[BasketballReasons]

I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with not wanting to pay more taxes to what we all agree on is a broken government.

Whats it going to be?
(1) Pay more taxes and get out of where your at right now
(2) Continue supporting this broken government by electing someone who isn't ready to change alot.

Its going to cost some hard work and money, you guys are really down right now. You expect it to just go up back like it used to be? No, your going to have to work for it and probably will have to increase your taxes. It's the price to pay if you guys want to get back in the #1 seat.

[BasketballReasons]

The American Dream is whatever you want it or don’t want it to be. Who says making a lot of money and being a good family man are mutually exclusive? There are plenty of people right here in America with 6 and 7 figure salaries who still manage to be good spouses/parents while tithing 10% to the church or other charities. Problem is we don’t hear about them on the news every night.

MB and rhada – I hear what you’re saying but I think leaving the country is a little extreme. There are plenty of people like the people you describe in EU that are right here in America. Probably more than you think.

I think yall should stay right here in America. If you go to EU, you might become someone as bitter and miserable as fredv. And who wants that?

I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with not wanting to pay more taxes to what we all agree on is a broken government.

I'm not miserable, i'm just pissed off that my favourite country and place to be is just going down and I feel you guys are just acting like nothing is happening.

[rhadamanthus]

MB and rhada – I hear what you’re saying but I think leaving the country is a little extreme. There are plenty of people like the people you describe in EU that are right here in America. Probably more than you think.

I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with not wanting to pay more taxes to what we all agree on is a broken government.

ima:

I totally agree. I don't think that moving is some sort of cure-all for my disillusionment with the "american" lifestyle. At the same time, cultural shifts don't happen overnight, and if there is anything to be learned from history, it's that those who stand to lose a lot from a change in societal structure will go to enormous lengths to maintain it. I firmly believe that this division of the country will only intensify - and that won't change until the ideology of "me first capitalism" changes. Some things are better suited to a socialist method. Period.


I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with not wanting to pay more taxes to what we all agree on is a broken government/

I don't agree it's broken. If it is, it's due to our own failure as the electorate. I fully believe that the only way to achieve real universal health care is through the government. I have also come to the conclusion that despite so many stupid people's objections to this plan - I think it will HELP the economy. Think about how much GM is paying for health care - it's absurdly astronomical. I think that social security should be expanded... You may think this liberal psychosis - but I think it's feasible - and at a price that would be trivial if we actually utilized a fiscally sane method to controlling our spending on things wholly unrelated to the citizenry.

[weslinder]

fredv,

There's a lot of hostility in your post, much of it deserved, but I think you're blaming America for a lot of things that aren't really our fault

Maybe because I think of the future and don't pollute the world selfishely?

I somehow doubt that. If you live in any modernized country, I'm going to predict that you produce a lot of pollution.

Maybe because I don't support a useless war that has put the world in deep ****.

I certainly agree that the Iraq War has been useless. Do you really believe it's put the world in "deep ****", though? Maybe I'm naive, but I don't buy it. Certainly not now. Will it turn into another Afghanistan, where the people we support turn out to be terrorists? Maybe, but there are no signs of that so far.

Start rebuilding your reputation and respect the constitutions you have signed and your allies.

I'm with you on this. Do you really mean that you want us to follow our Constitution? I'd love that. I don't think either candidate for President will do that though. And they have the most agressive foreigh-policy rhetoric of any two candidates since Johnson-Goldwater. I don't know how that goes to rebuilding our reputation.

[B-Bob]

I don't see that this thread is anything new.

We have been told that Obama is "unAmerican" and "pals with terrorists." Ergo, how could he possibly do anything other than "Rob Us of the American Dream?" ... and also "Sell Our precious Bodily Fluids to the Russians"! :mad:

[BasketballReasons]

fredv,

There's a lot of hostility in your post, much of it deserved, but I think you're blaming America for a lot of things that aren't really our fault



I somehow doubt that. If you live in any modernized country, I'm going to predict that you produce a lot of pollution.



I certainly agree that the Iraq War has been useless. Do you really believe it's put the world in "deep ****", though? Maybe I'm naive, but I don't buy it. Certainly not now. Will it turn into another Afghanistan, where the people we support turn out to be terrorists? Maybe, but there are no signs of that so far.



I'm with you on this. Do you really mean that you want us to follow our Constitution? I'd love that. I don't think either candidate for President will do that though. And they have the most agressive foreigh-policy rhetoric of any two candidates since Johnson-Goldwater. I don't know how that goes to rebuilding our reputation.

First, what I mean by pollution is that USA does not recognize the Kyoto Protocol, which is a bitty because many of your states would love to.

Concerning the Irak war, it has definitely been a mess. But its normal, how can you "fight terrorism"? I mean, terrorism is not an army, its almost a state of mind, if you refer to the dictionnary. Its everywhere, anyone can be a terrorist. Therefore I believe that the misguiding wars in both Afghanistan and Irak have been totally useless. Furthermore, a big tension between Arab's and english speaking people has increased. How many times have I not been treated of ignorant racist because I said I was from Texas. War on terrorism is a utopia, its not something that is possible. Thats why these two wars where messes.

Now, what I meant by constitutions where the treaties you signed both in the UN and in the NATO. When Bush proposed to go to Irak and that the majority refused, he still went. USA is one of the funding members of these institutions and has not shown a good example in the respect of these institutions. Now countries are telling themselves:"Well, the USA hasn't respected it, so why should we?"

I personnaly believe that by electing a president who is accepted worldwide will help our future. It will help USA to reunite with lost allies and you guys wouldn't be all alone and hated like you where for the last 4 years. Thats why I think that what the world thinks of your election is also important, because don't forget that you are as of know the number 1 country in the world, and you have to act like a number one all the time, and not just when you want. That implies helping others, and showing an example for smaller countries. Isn't that also the American dream?

[bnb]

Is Fredrick an unfunny Lhutz?

[BasketballReasons]

Is Fredrick an unfunny Lhutz?

Stop beeing a child and act your age. Take care of your country.

[IROC it]

Obama thinks the economy is grown "from the bottom up."



That is stinkin' rich.


So... how does the lowest of the economy provide jobs to the higher of the economy?


Redistribution.



Shttp://www.bayareaforobama.com/northbay/obama-logo.pngCIALISM

[surrender]

T_J, I expected much more from your OCTOBER SURPRISE

HO HO HO

[surrender]

Obama thinks the economy is grown "from the bottom up."



That is stinkin' rich.


So... how does the lowest of the economy provide jobs to the higher of the economy?


Redistribution.



Shttp://www.bayareaforobama.com/northbay/obama-logo.pngCIALISM

Somebody didn't read the thread! Or Adam Smith!

[MadMax]

The American Dream is whatever you want it or don’t want it to be. Who says making a lot of money and being a good family man are mutually exclusive? There are plenty of people right here in America with 6 and 7 figure salaries who still manage to be good spouses/parents while tithing 10% to the church or other charities. Problem is we don’t hear about them on the news every night.

MB and rhada – I hear what you’re saying but I think leaving the country is a little extreme. There are plenty of people like the people you describe in EU that are right here in America. Probably more than you think.

I think yall should stay right here in America. If you go to EU, you might become someone as bitter and miserable as fredv. And who wants that?

I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with not wanting to pay more taxes to what we all agree on is a broken government.

I think we're all going to be paying more taxes ultimately no matter who is president.

[Another Brother]

get dave's email??

he's getting some interesting responses :)

I'll bet. Both negative and positive I'll bet, pretty strong stuff.

[MadMax]

I'll bet. Both negative and positive I'll bet, pretty strong stuff.

About 5/1 positive, actually. Which is pretty remarkable. I was encouraged by the tone of a lot of the responses, even when they disagreed.

[IROC it]

I think we're all going to be paying more taxes ultimately no matter who is president.


Most likely.. but only wants to socialize medicine, buy up people's 401k's and "repay" them through the social security system, and redistribute more income from the top than ever before.


More taxes out of prudence and true need may be one thing... forced redistribution out of a sheer wish to "change" things is something entirely different.


Once the government takes pensions and retirement accounts and internalizes them, they basically have taken over the production side through the back door.


I doubt anyone wants their futures being handled solely by the government. Argentina tried it too... So did the Soviets.

[Master Baiter]

Most likely.. but only wants to socialize medicine, buy up people's 401k's and "repay" them through the social security system, and redistribute more income from the top than ever before.


More taxes out of prudence and true need may be one thing... forced redistribution out of a sheer wish to "change" things is something entirely different.


Once the government takes pensions and retirement accounts and internalizes them, they basically have taken over the production side through the back door.


I doubt anyone wants their futures being handled solely by the government. Argentina tried it too... So did the Soviets.
You are an idiot.

[surrender]

I doubt anyone wants their futures being handled solely by the government. Argentina tried it too... So did the Soviets.

And in regards to health care, so does every other first world in the country. They also pay less per capita for health care, and enjoy both greater life expectancies and lower infant death rates.

[gifford1967]

Most likely.. but only wants to socialize medicine, buy up people's 401k's and "repay" them through the social security system, and redistribute more income from the top than ever before.


More taxes out of prudence and true need may be one thing... forced redistribution out of a sheer wish to "change" things is something entirely different.


Once the government takes pensions and retirement accounts and internalizes them, they basically have taken over the production side through the back door.


I doubt anyone wants their futures being handled solely by the government. Argentina tried it too... So did the Soviets.

You've gone full wingtard.

[MadMax]

Most likely.. but only wants to socialize medicine, .


I see health care as a human right..particularly in a country with the kind of wealth we have. In all honesty...and I know this might be offensive, particularly to you and your faith background...I find this to be absolutely frightening. When I look at how God judges those who turn their backs on the least....and I consider how people will sell anyone else out for a tax cut...that's what the fear of God looks like to me. Think of the Lazarus parable...walking by the poor every day. Consider the judgment of Sodom...Ezekiel 16:49 "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." I simply can not fathom asking for a tax cut when human beings go without health coverage...and my children have never wanted for a thing.

I recognize how strange this conversation might look to those who don't share our hope and our faith.........but I think the GOP has this backwards version that God is on America's side and has stopped asking whether America is on God's side.

Please understand I'm not condemning your view of this...this is just my view, and i may be out of my mind!!! (my wife would support that notion!!) It's just how I read the Bible and how I understand God. I'm fearful we worship at the altar of the free market and trickle down economics at the expense of the things God seems to really care about. God's economics don't seem TO ME to match what this empire seems to be fighting for.

[FranchiseBlade]

Most likely.. but only wants to socialize medicine, buy up people's 401k's and "repay" them through the social security system, and redistribute more income from the top than ever before.
You have yet to show how Obama's plan has anything to do with socialized medicine. OF course it doesn't, so that would be difficult for you to do. You also don't seem to understand Obama's ideas regarding Social Security since they don't have anything with buying up people's 401K's and repaying them vis SS.

More taxes out of prudence and true need may be one thing... forced redistribution out of a sheer wish to "change" things is something entirely different.
Again you're wrong here at least partially. It may mean more taxes for you if you make more than a quarter million dollars a year. It won't mean more for most Americans though.

[FranchiseBlade]

And in regards to health care, so does every other first world in the country. They also pay less per capita for health care, and enjoy both greater life expectancies and lower infant death rates.
A good many nations in the world with socialized medicine enjoy better overall health care. 27 nations also have a lower infant mortality rate.

None of that has to do with Obama's health care plan though because his isn't socialized medicine.

[surrender]

A good many nations in the world with socialized medicine enjoy better overall health care. 27 nations also have a lower infant mortality rate.

None of that has to do with Obama's health care plan though because his isn't socialized medicine.

I know, I just wish his plan was socialized :o

[rimrocker]

Obama does not believe in the American Dream -- the chance to become wildly successful.

Honestly, this is one of the saddest things I've ever read here. It's clear you're not talking about any kind of success but the material kind... I guess this is what happens when a second rate mind spends his teenage years falling in love with the writings of a third rate mind and tries to live by the scripture of Ayn Rand. Ugh.

I find it interesting that in your Wiki cite, you neglected to mention the origin of the term by Historian James Truslow Adams, even though it takes up a good portion of the page:

"The American Dream is that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement. It is a difficult dream for the European upper classes to interpret adequately, and too many of us ourselves have grown weary and mistrustful of it. It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position."

Nothing there that comes close to what you're suggesting passes for the American Dream.

Please show me any writing by Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, Jackson, or Lincoln that supports your view. I'm not talking about Poor Richard's quips about working hard... I'm talking about anything that could be remotely interpreted as saying that the accumulation of wealth is the highest calling of Americans.

Here's John's cousin Sam...

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

What he's saying is that people who thought like you do were the Tories. There is a much greater cause than an individual amassing material goods and personal luxuries.

Tom understood the selfish and the egotistical all too well...

"The selfish spirit of commerce... knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain."

"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."

"The human character, we believe, requires in general constant and immediate control to prevent its being biased from right by the seductions of self-love."

"Self-love... is the sole antagonist of virtue, leading us constantly by our propensities to self-gratification in violation of our moral duties to others. Accordingly, it is against this enemy that are erected the batteries of moralists and religionists, as the only obstacle to the practice of morality. Take from man his selfish propensities, and he can have nothing to seduce him from the practice of virtue. Or subdue those propensities by education, instruction or restraint, and virtue remains without a competitor."

"My observations do not enable me to say I think integrity the characteristic of wealth. In general, I believe the decisions of the people in a body will be more honest and more disinterested than those of wealthy men..."

--Thomas Jefferson


There is a place in society for people who think and behave your way, but it has nothing to do with the primary purpose for America and it is surely not the American Dream.

[IROC it]

You are an idiot.


Read a history book. Shoot, read a recent article or two on Argentina and a plan getting feet in our own Democrat congressional circles that gleans inspiration from the same ideas, ignoring the problems Argentina has faced. Then get back to me. We've gone from viable "privatization" plans to complete government absorption policy being thrown around... and accepted!




BTW- Max, No... I am out of my mind. Let me explian my views on "health care" for a moment.

If health care is a human right, show me where it has EVER been so. Before you turn me off here... read my entire post.


Health care has never been a "right" - but always a "responsibility." Each parent is responsible to take care of their children. Each person is responsible to take of their own body in order to prevent sickness (East your veggies... drink your OJ, etc.). The care of elders is a family responsibility that has also been sadly institutionalized. No PHYSICIAN, save the "Great Physician" has ever offered "health care" as a "right." And even the one I refer to offers "health" and "healing" - not treatment of symptoms.


Not even Hippocrates thought that way... even he got something for his knowledge. And his oath has been ignored by "modern" medicine.


"Rights" are never free... but they are inherent. You're not born with, and you do not naturally come into "health care" outside of common sense and good nutrition, and most of that is the responsibility of the parent. That is "health" and the ability to heal. So then "health care" is a ruse. It is simply baby sitting of symptoms.

Science, for that matter, sees anything short of perfect health in nature as weakness, and, in the case of natural selection and evolution, it is paramount to the basic premise that "the strong survive." Yet when it comes to a commodity, science plays the other side of the coin and suddenly becomes compassionate. But is is squarely because of money that science turns the corner. If we have a right to "health care" it would be 100% free of cost. But that's bad for business.


FWIW - that has ZERO to do with my Faith. I am not looking through any of this through the lens of "faith." That further clouds the issues of actuality. Don't take my meaning wrong, I fully believe in my God, but I also see what man has done to pervert basic health rights.

"Health care" has been a commodity so far as the world's economies have been, since day one... but therein lies the rub.


When "health care" becomes the "job" of someone outside the individual (other than a parent, or relative), you have crossed into aiding and abetting the lazy and irresponsible. You have actually made "health care" a perverted term meaning actually "treatment." Treatment of symptoms is not health. It is a bailout plan. It usually doesn't aim at the cause of the symptoms. Good health takes on the responsibilities of eating right, prevention of illness through common sense (don't skydive = no splat, don't drink and drive = no one gets killed in a wreck, don't ingest foods with transfats = reduced chance of HBP) - we used to eat better... people lived longer pre-fast food, etc. Other societies around the world only saw certain disease after their food chains were westernized. We used to be responsible for ourselves... but government got bigger, and society became more an more dependent... The biggest case that proves this is "health care." Or as I've said, the "big business" of "treatment."


If anything at all, so far as "faith" is concerned, faith originated groups (Red Cross, etc.) have done more to advance the basic "rights" of humanity concerning health around the world... in America most of all "health care" groups were formed by churches... look at the names of most of the hospitals in any major city... "Methodist" or "Presbyterian" or "Baptist" or "Saint" something or other... the "faith" community have always led the way in the basic right to HEAL.


Every person has a right to a pursuit of GOOD HEALTH and to HEAL. By and large, most are born ready to live, and in good health... The human body has even been proven capable of healing if given the chance through nutrition... That is not "health care" but rather being healthy. "Heath care" is a perversion of the real rights we have. A lack of understanding of the differences (in the current systems in place and what all people have had as basic rights since the dawn of time) is the key issue.

If anything, the current state of "health care" when viewing through a lens of faith, one could conclude that faith-based missions around the world have done more good outside of the USA strictly because our government regulation here is not concerned with healing and good health, but has been corrupted through a love of money... a love of revenues that are taxable... and seeking to garner more of that revenue, internalizing it in large part would make the most sense to the greedy in government.

If we're wanting to go there, and look through eyes of "faith" - 'The love of money is the root of all evil' -then lets' see our current state of "health care" for what it is. BIG BUSINESS that creates TAXABLE revenue.

If US "health care" was any more about "healing" and solving the riddles of incurable disease than oil companies are about truly promoting viable energy alternatives, then they would BOTH find ways to work themselves out of business. The "health care" of this nation is a big business. Nothing more.


I don't have a right to "big business." I do have a right to a healthy life. I do have a right to heal when needed.


Having personally experienced loss in my family... while depending on "health care" I can tell you that perhaps the quickest way to lose any amount of health you have is to plug yourself in and get dependent on the "heath care" system. It is not the intention of this big business machine to heal and make people independent of them. It is fully the intention of this big business machine to string individuals along on new meds, new treatments, new tests, and establish new research for the purpose of new business ventures.


We all have basic rights. But I want no part of a right to a system of death.


If fully believe in the points you raise concerning America, and the American church... I do not advocate leaving out the poor, etc... concerning treatment.

I just cannot sit by and accept that a government answer -hybrid in principle as it may be on paper -is anything more than another money grab, and eventual socialism.


Government wants to help? Fine, regulate the food industry. Make food healthy. We should be arguing this point in our country. Don't we have a human right to healthy food?


/rant

[thadeus]

From the Redistribution of Wealth thread, post #96 (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=155519&page=5&pp=20)

To Supermac34 and wakkoman: You both ignored a critical factor in my argument. Did you know that, in the 1950s, a man could work at a gas station and support a family, buy a house, without his wife working? Yeah, that really happened. The point I'm making is that the typical wage, adjusted for changes in inflation, is MUCH lower than it was in the past - people from a couple generations back had a much, much, much better chance of moving up the ladder than people who were born in the last twenty-thirty years.

I noted that the ideal of social mobility may have been true in the past (though it was never as pervasive as many claim), it is rapidly disappearing from the realm of possibility.

The changing dynamic of the U.S. economy clearly has the most impact on those at the bottom. Some 49% of families who started the 1970s in poverty were still stuck there at the end of that decade, the Boston Fed study found. During the 1990s, the figure had jumped to 53%, even after accounting for two-earner families. A key reason lies with the creation of millions of jobs that pay less than a poverty-line wage of $8.70 an hour, according to Low-Wage America, a massive research project involving case studies by 38 academics. Most of the workers, such as nursing assistants or food preparers, "have no educational credentials beyond a high school diploma," the authors found.

Problem is, that all-important sheepskin is out of reach for most students from low-income families. Although college enrollment has soared for higher-income students, more children from poor families can only afford to go to community colleges, which typically don't offer bachelor's degrees. The number of poor students who get a degree -- fewer than 5% in 2001 -- has barely budged in 30 years, according to an analysis of Census Bureau data by Thomas G. Mortenson, who publishes an education newsletter from Oskaloosa, Iowa.

In turn, the lack of mobility for those who don't or can't get a degree is putting a lid on the intergenerational progress that has long been a mainstay of the American experience. Last year, Wichita State University sociology professor David W. Wright and two colleagues updated a classic 1978 study that looked at how sons fared according to the social and economic class of their fathers. Defining class by a mix of education, income, and occupation, they found that sons from the bottom three-quarters of the socioeconomic scale were less likely to move up in the 1990s than in the 1960s. Just 10% of sons whose fathers were in the bottom quarter had made it to the top quarter by 1998, the authors found. By contrast, 23% of lower-class sons had done so by 1973, according to the earlier study. Similarly, only 51% of sons whose fathers belonged to the second-highest quarter equaled or surpassed the economic standing of their parents in the 1990s. In the 1960s, 63% did.

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/weekly_2003/american_dream_death.html

It's fairly well established that a college education is the single biggest predictor of upward social mobility. But that's becoming a problem as well since, for the last 20 years, the cost of college tuition has been rising at double the rate of inflation:

COLLEGE COSTS OUTPACE INFLATION

The studies, conducted as part of the Making Opportunity affordable project, note that college affordability is increasingly affecting accessibility. Even when adjusted for inflation, tuition and fees at four-year public universities have risen 24 percent over the past five years, according to the Trends in College Pricing 2006 report by the College Board.

The result has been that lower- and middle-class families have been struggling more to pay for college, with fewer low-income students enrolling and two-thirds of college students graduating with debt. Today, the average student borrower at a public college or university owes $17,250 in student loans; 10 years ago, the average borrower attending a public institution graduated owing $8,000 in student loans, after adjusting for inflation.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS244301+31-Jan-2008+MW20080131

And from a more recent article at CNNMoney ...

For more than two decades, colleges and universities across the country have been jacking up tuition at a faster rate than costs have risen on any other major product or service - four times faster than the overall inflation rate and faster even than increases in the price of gasoline or health care (see the chart to the right). The result: After adjusting for financial aid, the amount families pay for college has skyrocketed 439% since 1982.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/20/pf/college/college_price.moneymag/index.htm


-----------------------------------------------------------------
So, maybe I can bring this up here since the free-marketeers ignored it in the other thread.

If the American Dream was a person, then it is now a person in a nursing home w/advanced health problems and not much time left.

And since the 'S' word has made an appearance in this thread: I'm not in favor of Socialism because I believe it's already an out-dated system. I also believe Capitalism is an out-dated system in the sense that it made sense in the eighteenth and early-nineteenth centuries because there was still room for competition and there were very few global conglomerates. It doesn't make sense any more in the modern world.

But, again, it should be noted that China, the USSR, East Germany, and the Bloc states were not actual communist nations. For communism to come into being, per the system developed by Marx, there must be an incipient stage of capitalism. You'll note from the 'communist' countries I listed above that not a single one of them had anything resembling a capitalist system prior to becoming 'communist.' It's this fact that convinces me that most people who throw out the word 'socialist' as a epithet against any redistribution of wealth actually have no idea how 'socialism' is defined.

In short, the communist nations had just as adulterated a system of 'communism' as we, starting in the twentieth-century, have of 'capitalism' - it's convenient shorthand, but neither term makes sense any more. What we have now is closer to a oligarchy where authority springs from access to great quantities of capital, and in that sense, we've passed well beyond the 'competitive' stage.

But anyway .... about the 'American Dream': It's on its deathbed, and our culture is already suffering for it.

[F.D. Khan]

Did you know that, in the 1950s, a man could work at a gas station and support a family, buy a house, without his wife working?

I think what you're ignoring is that people today don't have needs, they have 'wants'. At that time our lifestyles did not include cell phones, computers, varieties of food, air conditioning, granite countertops etc.
Peopel today also have this idea that they deserve healthcare and any treatment possible.

Food has virtually deflated in the last 20 years due to technology. A big mac is virtually the same price as it was 20 years ago, which if adjusted for inflation has actually come down in real dollars. If one is willing to live without all the tangible goods and entitlements, they could live well on a meager income better than most in the 1950's.

To state that we have not become wealthier as a nation and that there are significantly more opportunities are just false. I think with the global markets and scalablity of the financial markets, a very small percentage of people are able to become extremely wealthy in the 100 millions and billions and these people skew all the other figures about economic mobility.

[deepblue]

From the Redistribution of Wealth thread, post #96 (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=155519&page=5&pp=20)

To Supermac34 and wakkoman: You both ignored a critical factor in my argument. Did you know that, in the 1950s, a man could work at a gas station and support a family, buy a house, without his wife working? Yeah, that really happened. The point I'm making is that the typical wage, adjusted for changes in inflation, is MUCH lower than it was in the past - people from a couple generations back had a much, much, much better chance of moving up the ladder than people who were born in the last twenty-thirty years.



You are now living in a global economy, its absurd to assume you should be able to support a family, own a house just on one income from working at a gas station, JUST because you were born in United States. Those days are never coming back, not when a Chinese/Indian engineer/doctor is working for 20k a year.

You can still move up the ladder, but not by doing the same job billions of other people can also do.

[pgabriel]

I think what you're ignoring is that people today don't have needs, they have 'wants'. At that time our lifestyles did not include cell phones, computers, varieties of food, air conditioning, granite countertops etc.
Peopel today also have this idea that they deserve healthcare and any treatment possible.

Food has virtually deflated in the last 20 years due to technology. A big mac is virtually the same price as it was 20 years ago, which if adjusted for inflation has actually come down in real dollars. If one is willing to live without all the tangible goods and entitlements, they could live well on a meager income better than most in the 1950's.



and do you know what would happen to our economy if all these people who don't deserve all these shiny new televisions and ipods stopped buying. I am not arguing that people shouldn't live within our means, but do you know what happens when we do?

[MadMax]

all good points, IROC...just thought you might be interested in my viewpoint, since it comes from the same source as yours...even if it goes in different directions, ultimately.

as for health care being a human right...i did not mean it from a government/constitutional/"the world" sort of way....

i meant it mostly from a, "wow we sure have a lot...and wow i'm really uncomfortable when I see people being denied something that might save their lives or a family member's life when my kids won't simply because they were lucky enough to be born into my family."


"to whom much is given, much is expected" haunts me as a Christian living in this country. truly haunts me. as i say, that's where I understand the context of the phrase, "the fear of God" more than anywhere. more than in anything else. because too often i fail to notice how comfortable i am...and how uncomfortable it is for others.

for me....i can't separate out these political issues from my faith....i find myself serving 2 masters when i do that. one says pray for your enemies...the other says, "let's scour the earth to destroy them." one says take care of the poor and serve them...the other takes $.36 of every dollar they take from me and uses it for building weapons of war. one tells me to throw everything into profit so that i can live comfortably, because "i deserve it." the other says i should take up my own cross and be willing to give it all away. difficult to serve two masters. in all honesty, for all the patriotism i see in the church, we live in a culture that looks a helluva lot like the one that threw our forefathers to the lions. it's consumed the church in this country in so many ways. it calls itself the best hope of the world, language the Roman Empire used for itself...and its leaders on both sides of the aisle echo that. it's not the best hope of the world...but i don't need to tell you that!! :)

i want this country/government to mimic jesus, even if it happens by accident. i want it to be humble...to seek peace...to look out for the poor. sometimes it does those things, and when it does it's a good thing. when it does other things, i find it to be less true and less good.

[F.D. Khan]

and do you know what would happen to our economy if all these people who don't deserve all these shiny new televisions and ipods stopped buying. I am not arguing that people shouldn't live within our means, but do you know what happens when we do?

The stats are that around 65% of GDP is consumer spending while for the first time ever last year over 50% of profits from the S&P 500 came from outside of the country.

Organic, natural consumption will lead to more consistent sustainable growth. Excess spending beyond natural means will lead to increased interest payments over time which cuts away from future spending and is a net negative. I'd rather have people spend within their means for longer term stability and growth versus short-term unsustainable pops in GDP that lead to bigger problems like what we're seeing today.

[F.D. Khan]

My above reasoning is also why we need to focus on global consumers and the growing consumer base in places like China, India and Latin America. As our consumption declines through the lack of credit, we'll need increase in consumption abroad to grow at reasonable rates.

That is probably one of my biggest fears with Obama as he may become protectionist and this will limit our ability to leverage the foreign markets, specialization and trade policies. I think this could detract from future growth even more than tax policy.

[pgabriel]

My above reasoning is also why we need to focus on global consumers and the growing consumer base in places like China, India and Latin America. As our consumption declines through the lack of credit, we'll need increase in consumption abroad to grow at reasonable rates.

That is probably one of my biggest fears with Obama as he may become protectionist and this will limit our ability to leverage the foreign markets, specialization and trade policies. I think this could detract from future growth even more than tax policy.


obama's protectionist stance is one that requires global standards to equal ours. if china's workers don't have the same standards, they are cheaper labor, and therefore it won't matter because the jobs will go over there.

[thadeus]

If health care is a human right, show me where it has EVER been so. Before you turn me off here... read my entire post.

There are a number of countries now where healthcare is considered a right.


Not even Hippocrates thought that way... even he got something for his knowledge. And his oath has been ignored by "modern" medicine.

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.


"Rights" are never free... but they are inherent. You're not born with, and you do not naturally come into "health care" outside of common sense and good nutrition, and most of that is the responsibility of the parent. That is "health" and the ability to heal. So then "health care" is a ruse. It is simply baby sitting of symptoms.

This is a rather confused argument, but I'll just point out that there is no such thing as natural rights. Rights are always determined by people in power. For most of recorded history, the majority of people had no right to be represented in the will of their leaders. The point is - 'Rights' change over time with changing circumstances. There are no rights accrued to us by 'nature'.

Science, for that matter, sees anything short of perfect health in nature as weakness, and, in the case of natural selection and evolution, it is paramount to the basic premise that "the strong survive." Yet when it comes to a commodity, science plays the other side of the coin and suddenly becomes compassionate.

Should we be an "only the strong survive" culture? If we truly were, then there are plenty of middle-class (and above) people who certainly haven't demonstrated the physical and mental fitness required to survive in a tough environment - an environment, for example, like poverty - but who still manage to get adequate healthcare because they can afford it. That hardly seems like an "only the strong survive" situation to me. Maybe "only the people with adequate economic resources, no matter how they obtained them, survive" would be a better maxim?

I think, more likely, 'survival' is no longer an adequate measure of social well-being. Most of us could live in a box behind the Circle K and still manage to survive. Our environment is not nature, and natural selection no longer occurs.

When "health care" becomes the "job" of someone outside the individual (other than a parent, or relative), you have crossed into aiding and abetting the lazy and irresponsible.

I think this is what you meant to get at all along, right? There are plenty of people who are lazy and irresponsible and who have adequate healthcare. There are plenty of people who are neither lazy nor irresponsible who do not have adequate healthcare. Why is that?



It is not the intention of this big business machine to heal and make people independent of them. It is fully the intention of this big business machine to string individuals along on new meds, new treatments, new tests, and establish new research for the purpose of new business ventures.

Yes, Big Business does all these things because it wants to turn a profit, and as much profit as possible. So ... what if we have a healthcare system that only needs to break even? What if we have a healthcare system where most of the money going into the system actually stays in the system instead of going into the pockets of Big Business?

If fully believe in the points you raise concerning America, and the American church... I do not advocate leaving out the poor, etc... concerning treatment.

It is statements like this that reaffirm my belief that the morality of Christianity and the tenets of capitalism are not simply in disagreement on a few points, but are in fact diametrically opposed to one another on the majority of issues. I find it baffling when one tries to maintain a worldview that privileges both genuine compassion and absolute profit-seeking - and, judging from the arguments I've seen advanced to justify the pairing, it seems to baffle its adherents just as much as it baffles its critics.

I just cannot sit by and accept that a government answer -hybrid in principle as it may be on paper -is anything more than another money grab, and eventual socialism.

But we seem to acknowledge there's a problem. I don't trust the government, but I don't see an alternative in solving the massive healthcare problems in this country. Do you have a better suggestion (I don't mean this facetiously)?

[Master Baiter]

IROC it,

Do you beleive that medicine and medical care should be available for profit?

[rhadamanthus]

It is statements like this that reaffirm my belief that the morality of Christianity and the tenets of capitalism are not simply in disagreement on a few points, but are in fact diametrically opposed to one another on the majority of issues. I find it baffling when one tries to maintain a worldview that privileges both genuine compassion and absolute profit-seeking - and, judging from the arguments I've seen advanced to justify the pairing, it seems to baffle its adherents just as much as it baffles its critics.

Great post. Thadeus for the wins.

The only point you left out here is the obvious deduction:

Most "christians" don't have a clue what "christian morality" is or should be.

[MadMax]

It is statements like this that reaffirm my belief that the morality of Christianity and the tenets of capitalism are not simply in disagreement on a few points, but are in fact diametrically opposed to one another on the majority of issues. I find it baffling when one tries to maintain a worldview that privileges both genuine compassion and absolute profit-seeking - and, judging from the arguments I've seen advanced to justify the pairing, it seems to baffle its adherents just as much as it baffles its critics.




I think you're right. Very difficult stuff. I'm not proposing to you that there's another -ism that is necessarily a perfect or even a better answer in the confines of trying to follow Jesus. But this marriage of free market economics and the Church is a very strange one.

[rhadamanthus]

I think you're right. Very difficult stuff. I'm not proposing to you that there's another -ism that is necessarily a perfect or even a better answer in the confines of trying to follow Jesus. But this marriage of free market economics and the Church is a very strange one.

Blame the puritans.

[MadMax]

Great post. Thadeus for the wins.

The only point you left out here is the obvious deduction:

Most "christians" don't have a clue what "christian morality" is or should be.

this pains me beyond belief. i'm not kidding. i know this thread isn't about this...but i have to say, i know people who are such close friends who've never grasped this...and who equate the cross with the flag and all it stands for. and then so many people never get to hear what jesus was actually preaching, because the church is preaching something altogether different. it makes my stomach drop, truly. very very sad to me. this stuff has really knocked me upside the head over the last few years or so, in particular. and i don't know what it means for me practically. better topic over a beer than over a message board....but i'm consumed by it.

[rhadamanthus]

this pains me beyond belief. i'm not kidding. i know this thread isn't about this...but i have to say, i know people who are such close friends who've never grasped this...and who equate the cross with the flag and all it stands for. and then so many people never get to hear what jesus was actually preaching, because the church is preaching something altogether different. it makes my stomach drop, truly. very very sad to me. this stuff has really knocked me upside the head over the last few years or so, in particular. and i don't know what it means for me practically. better topic over a beer than over a message board....but i'm consumed by it.

Although we come from totally opposite viewpoints in many ways on this topic and on it's solution, madmax... this pains me too.

Such a waste... I'll buy the first round.

[MadMax]

Such a waste... I'll buy the first round.

just let me know when and where!

[Rocketman95]

this pains me beyond belief. i'm not kidding. i know this thread isn't about this...but i have to say, i know people who are such close friends who've never grasped this...and who equate the cross with the flag and all it stands for. and then so many people never get to hear what jesus was actually preaching, because the church is preaching something altogether different. it makes my stomach drop, truly. very very sad to me. this stuff has really knocked me upside the head over the last few years or so, in particular. and i don't know what it means for me practically. better topic over a beer than over a message board....but i'm consumed by it.

You would do all the talking, but I would love to listen. Maybe I should start by re-reading some scripture.

[Master Baiter]

I'd buy a round to listen to that conversation.

[MadMax]

St. Arnold's, of course. ;)

[DonnyMost]

I'll buy the first round of prostitutes.

[MadMax]

I'll buy the first round of prostitutes.

i'm working on a "your mom" joke...i'll get back to you. ;)

[gifford1967]

I think you're right. Very difficult stuff. I'm not proposing to you that there's another -ism that is necessarily a perfect or even a better answer in the confines of trying to follow Jesus. But this marriage of free market economics and the Church is a very strange one.

I don't think there has to be a contradiction between Christianity and free market economics or capitalism, as long as your'e not talking about "pure" capitalism.

You can make a good arguement that the incentives to produce in capitalism and efficiencies of distributing goods in a free market produce a great good for the people in general. The problems crop up when the negative tendencies of capitalism and human nature are not accounted for. The tendency to place profit over human welfare (produce dangerous goods etc.) and the tendency to concentrate wealth. These problems can be sensibly addressed through regulation, tax policy etc.

The wingnuts ride over the cliff in insisting that any deviation from pure capitalism/free markets is "socialism". Though even here they can never be even close to consistent.

[DonnyMost]

i'm working on a "your mom" joke...i'll get back to you. ;)

I'll let eric speak for me.

<embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:southparkstudios.com:150739:" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="window" width="480" height="360" allowFullscreen="true" scriptAccess="always"></embed>

[Astockmarketgod]

Obama does not believe in the American Dream -- the chance to become wildly successful. Listen as he reveals his deep seated beliefs in wealth redistribution. Listen as he reveals his racial focus, and how he makes white executives the scapegoat for blacks' underperformance in schools. He truly feels, in his heart of hearts, that money should be spread around. He this confirms the words that he has spoken, time and again. We wants to take money from those who have taken risks and worked hard to succeed, and then give that hard earned money to people who live off of the government.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/t7fi8STNlxM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/t7fi8STNlxM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

How does this advance the American Dream? Obama simply does not understand America and what makes it great. You hate to say it, but this is likely the direct result of listening to his cadre of American-hating advisors, one of whom is Jeremiah Wright.

Note also how much he has changed his speaking style and the words he chooses -- in an attempt to market himself to Americans who do not share his values.

seriously how much money do you really need Trader_Jorge?

why are so many Americans afraid to pay taxes... or take care of their own...


If you don't think another American deserves to have a life saving operation... because he/she could afford to pay for it...

then why worry about pulling out of the war in Iraq... where for one... is costing you 12 billion dollars a month... just leave...

and if it emboldens...the Terrorist to attack... as long as its NOT YOU getting killed... why should you care... to each his own right???...


you can even profit in the markets by shorting the DOW... when there is a terrorist attack...

heck.. you could cover and even go long within hours...after the drop... make more money that way...

[rhadamanthus]

I'd buy a round to listen to that conversation.

All we need now is for rhester to provide the ex-mexican-drug-dealer-turned-jesus-freak viewpoint and we're set for one hell of a dialogue. :D

[Fatty FatBastard]

I'd buy a round to listen to that conversation.

I'll go, but I have a different viewpoint.

[MadMax]

All we need now is for rhester to provide the ex-mexican-drug-dealer-turned-jesus-freak viewpoint and we're set for one hell of a dialogue. :D

i can absolutely get rhester there!!! :) i bought him lunch yesterday!!! :D (of course, he bought the 2x before that!!)

[MadMax]

I'll go, but I have a different viewpoint.

no (stop)

we must all think alike (stop)

no soup for you (stop)


(i'm certain your differing viewpoint has to do with texas tech football.)

[rhadamanthus]

I'll go, but I have a different viewpoint.

"womens is trouble, beer is good" transfers readily across many a religious philosophy, fatty.

:p

For the record - I nominate max to set this up. It was his idea. ;)

[glynch]

I help people every single day. I am much better at it than the .gov is, so why should my money go to FEMA who cannot get ice to my neighbors for 3 days when I got them ice and water on saterday?

I stayed with the "locals" in china and scotland. In china they had no time with their families, they worked all day everyday.
. Get real and wake up. The world is changing and if our priorities as americans are more free time and recreation thos in India and china whose priority is to make enough money to support 3 generation of people (parents themselves and children) we will lose.

How do you help people every day? 1) Take care of their health care needs? 2) Formally educate or train them? 3) Keep them safe from crime? 4) Keep their environment healthful? Please explain how your efforts could supplant the governments. Giving ice a day or two earlier than FEMA. ARE YOU JOKING?

Prove that "Sweden has much more money than us per capita".

Quit making facts up to support your biases.

Here's a link from a quick goodle to some 2003 data. US with per capita income of $37,500
and Sweden $26,620.

http://www.success-and-culture.net/articles/percapitaincome.shtml

[glynch]

Yeah, I know that what we think is definitely not popular with a lot of people but I don't care.

There are a lot of Americans who feel quite a bit like you guys. In a way that is what the election is about. The folks who preach the gospel of selfishness ala Jorge have probably crested.

Don't forget it is the organized working class in Sweden and Germany that keeps the soulless corporate elite from completely stripping most folks of their benefits.

As you can see with the McCain-Palin folks the corporation elite and other wealthy individuals do it under the guise of protecting "small" business and individuals who aren't part of the elite.

[finalsbound]

I'd buy a round to listen to that conversation.

I'll buy a round just to be a fly on the wall - you won't even know I'm there! :eek:

[thadeus]

I'll buy a round just to be a fly on the wall - you won't even know I'm there! :eek:

I'll buy a bunch of rounds and then when everyone's drunk I will do the naked viking wardance.

[FranchiseBlade]

I'll buy a bunch of rounds and then when everyone's drunk I will do the naked viking wardance.
I'll buy a round just to have everyone else buying me rounds.

[Master Baiter]

I'll buy a bunch of rounds and then when everyone's drunk I will do the naked viking wardance.
That's how I married a Swede.

[Lynus302]

What I don't get about taxes:
Why not have everyone pay, say....10%-15% (or whatever is appropriate). Some people pay more, some people pay less; but everyone pays the same percentage. Have another percentage for businesses.

It is simple and fair, no?

Seems easy enough to me. Is this so hard to figure out?

[FranchiseBlade]

What I don't get about taxes:
Why not have everyone pay, say....10%-15% (or whatever is appropriate). Some people pay more, some people pay less; but everyone pays the same percentage. Have another percentage for businesses.

It is simple and fair, no?

Seems easy enough to me. Is this so hard to figure out?
It would be, except for those that live paycheck to paycheck they spend 100% of their income just to live. To tax some of that, even 15% is more harmful to them than it is to someone who invests or saves large amounts of their paycheck.

Thus those people can pay more with less hardship.

[surrender]

What I don't get about taxes:
Why not have everyone pay, say....10%-15% (or whatever is appropriate). Some people pay more, some people pay less; but everyone pays the same percentage. Have another percentage for businesses.

It is simple and fair, no?

Seems easy enough to me. Is this so hard to figure out?

Declining marginal utility of money. A person making $20,000 is more affected by losing $2,000 to taxation than a person making $500,000 losing $50,000.

[thadeus]

I think what you're ignoring is that people today don't have needs, they have 'wants'. At that time our lifestyles did not include cell phones, computers, varieties of food, air conditioning, granite countertops etc.
Peopel today also have this idea that they deserve healthcare and any treatment possible.

I didn't ignore this, it just wasn't relevant to my argument. Are you saying that people having 'wants' is what is killing social mobility in this country? The desire to have an iPhone is stopping people from being able to afford college?

If one is willing to live without all the tangible goods and entitlements, they could live well on a meager income better than most in the 1950's.

This isn't true. People who can't afford to pay for college aren't rendered unable to pay for it because they have a cellphone (one should note that cellphones are cheaper than landlines now, and that most employers work from the assumption that prospective employees will have cellphones). I'm not sure if you've ever tried living on minimum wage, but there's really no room to save for college. If you genuinely believe this, then I'd have to suspect that you've never been in that position and that you're relatively isolated from people who are.

To state that we have not become wealthier as a nation and that there are significantly more opportunities are just false. I think with the global markets and scalablity of the financial markets, a very small percentage of people are able to become extremely wealthy in the 100 millions and billions and these people skew all the other figures about economic mobility.

I wouldn't deny that we've become wealthier as a nation, except to include the caveat that that wealth has been concentrated to a greater and greater extent in the hands of fewer and fewer people. And when you note that there are significantly more opportunities it begs the question: More opportunities for whom? Without reasonable access to college, there is no rational reason to assume that opportunities are equal for everyone.

Also, you'll note that the statistic I cited about the massive increase in the cost of college since the 1980s was adjusted for inflation and wasn't based on any economic brackets that could "skew" that figure.

[thadeus]

You are now living in a global economy, its absurd to assume you should be able to support a family, own a house just on one income from working at a gas station, JUST because you were born in United States. Those days are never coming back, not when a Chinese/Indian engineer/doctor is working for 20k a year.

But people seem to assume that, JUST because you were born in the United States, that you have every possibility of achieving success if you're not dumb and lazy.

(of course, one would have to ignore the fact that there are plenty of dumb and lazy people who appear to be doing just fine and are making a nice income ... why is that?)

The "gas station" fact was to illustrate the point that social mobility has taking a MASSIVE nosedive in the last fifty years.

You can still move up the ladder, but not by doing the same job billions of other people can also do.

Plenty of people manage to move up the ladder doing the same job that billions of other people can also do, but they're able to afford college so they have an official slip of paper that certifies that they can do the same job that billions of other people can do.

As much as the deluded "I lifted myself up by my own bootstraps" types protest otherwise, most jobs can be done by most people - but most people don't have access to most jobs.

At any rate - do you deny that social mobility is declining in America? That the cost of college is rapidly outpacing the ability of people to afford it?

[CHI]

I'm not sure if you've ever tried living on minimum wage, but there's really no room to save for college. If you genuinely believe this, then I'd have to suspect that you've never been in that position and that you're relatively isolated from people who are.

I hope you don't think its impossible for a family to send their kids to college on minimum wage.

It all has to do with lifestyle. I know people who are currently making minimum, and drive brand-new 60k-70k cars. There's a dude I know who works at KFC... just bought a brand new Jaguar XF.

My GF's parents are Chinese immigrants who came here in 1992. They still barely speak English. They worked for minimum, and still currently have minimum wage jobs.

They bought their first home in 2000, AND payed for my GF's college. My GF got a part time job to pay for other expenses, but college was paid for by her parents.

[white lightning]

It all has to do with lifestyle. I know people who are currently making minimum, and drive brand-new 60k-70k cars. There's a dude I know who works at KFC... just bought a brand new Jaguar XF.



I'm not sure what state you live in but assuming 60 hours a week at $7.25 and hour, it would take over 2 years to buy a new Jaguar XF. That's with every penny going to the car. I'm not sure this is a realistic option for most people who earn this much.

[Malcolm]

The American dream. The biggest peice of crap Amreica has been teaching us for years. We've all heard the American myths what they actually are and lots of us have failed tryna pursue the dream which is the myth instead of realizing reality. It has never been about what you know but who you know and what they can do for you and what you can do for them. Lets look at reality of life and not the dreams. We can acheive what we want if we make the moves but not forget that its doesn't mean it will happen. American reality is about conforming. Fitting in the system and the only way you can move up is go outside to box we are taught to live in. But its a risk to go out the box because you will become an outcast. WHy do you think generrations of families stay where they stay. The Rich stay rich the Middle Class stay middle class and the Poor stay poor. Its the Amereican reality.


Obama cant kill somthing that never existed

[CHI]

I'm not sure what state you live in but assuming 60 hours a week at $7.25 and hour, it would take over 2 years to buy a new Jaguar XF. That's with every penny going to the car. I'm not sure this is a realistic option for most people who earn this much.

He took out a 72-month car loan to pay for it.

I live in San Fran. The minimum here is $9.25

[insane man]

My GF's parents are Chinese immigrants who came here in 1992. They still barely speak English. They worked for minimum, and still currently have minimum wage jobs.

They bought their first home in 2000, AND payed for my GF's college. My GF got a part time job to pay for other expenses, but college was paid for by her parents.

well the america i want doesn't require certain people to have to scale virtually insurmountable obstacles to get to that stage.

in the late 50s average folks working at a factory could take vacations plan for a nice retirement and send their kids to college with only one income earner.

thats the america i want. not one in which if two parents bust their ass 60 hours a week until their 70 just to get by.

[IROC it]

IROC it,

Do you beleive that medicine and medical care should be available for profit?


You obviously didn't get my message, did you? No. I think the government should encourage good health, not "health care" i.e. "treatment for financial gain." I abhor medicine for money. I hate the medical systems of the country.





Max.... you communist you... (Jesus was basically a commie ;) )



I hope you get my drift.


I understand everything you're saying... the problem with humanity is that we cannot help but affix political labels (that we are familiar with) to everyone... and in many senses of the "Word" early Christianity sounded like a commune... and with good reason- in our understanding it would only make sense. We must then remember, "my ways are not your ways."

This is why our beliefs seem to fly in the face of our current government, and many governments of the world. Remember, God's system is a Mono-Theocracy that exudes equality and fairness... And when we put that in the contextual understanding of obeying the laws of the "authorities" placed over us, "render to ceasar" etc. it gets even cloudier.


Ultimately... faith vs. state will always a conflict be. But it is not anti-Faith to be pro-small government in the least. Since we cannot seem to separate the two it seems, why not keep things as simple as possible, and seek to educate the masses to reduce bad health choices.... Much of the Old Testament text contained health advice, nutrition advice, etc... things that taught good stewardship over good health... this is the same idea I have for the reduction of abortions... just educate people, while young, if the parents won't learn to be responsible enough as parents to do this, develop a way to figure out who has not been taught, then teach them. If the health of the nation is better, through education and implementation of nutrition and exercise... then financial burden on you and I, through the government or private means, is less.

I still will never see that government health care is the solution to the health crisis. If anything, perhaps government should concentrate the funds already committed to these institutions toward preventative measures and ground floor education and nutrition, instead of kick-backs and grants to pharmaceutical companies that encourage them to come up with new medications to treat the symptoms of the side-effects of the last medications they produced. The vicious cycle has to stop somewhere, and I propose square one is the stopping point. Get healthy foods and natural remedies.


Not unlike "red counties"... I'm all over the map here. :D

[CHI]

well the america i want doesn't require certain people to have to scale virtually insurmountable obstacles to get to that stage.

in the late 50s average folks working at a factory could take vacations plan for a nice retirement and send their kids to college with only one income earner.

thats the america i want. not one in which if two parents bust their ass 60 hours a week until their 70 just to get by.

well to be fair, they were recent immigrants who did not speak english, and had a middle school education. if they could pay for their kids college, why can't someone who was born and raised here?

if you don't work hard, nothing good can happen.

[rhadamanthus]

I'll buy a round just to be a fly on the wall - you won't even know I'm there! :eek:

If finalsbound is going to buy rounds - half the bbs may show up. :D

Max - start the organizin' !!

[yuantian]

Obama's messages are worrying me. i don't like McCain, but i completely disagree with Obama on a lot of issues. i just hope none of his plans pass the congress after he gets elected. the whole trade protectionism, taxing business, health care, other plans he promised are going to end us costing us more in the long term.

[fmp087]

Obama is the epitome of american dream

[leebigez]

I find it funny that people who make 50k are worried about those of us making over 250k. Now I'm in that bracket obama will increases taxes on but that doesn't bother me. What people like the op should concern themselves with is how cindy mccain made 4m and paid 27% taxes which is what that 50k person pays. Just on a common sense angle, if the richest man in america isn't worried about obamas taxes, why should you?

[Carl Herrera]

Like many have said, plenty of Democratic Presidential candidate have been given the "socialist" tag by the paranoid right. I certainly remember Limbaugh tagging Clinton as a socialist back in the 90s. All while plenty of businesses got rich and the anti-free-trade crowd not exactly loving the administration.

The truth is, unless Obama doesn't want to get elected again, and wants to drag all the House Democrats with him in 2010, he won't go anywhere near socialism.

In any case, after not seeing actual socialism practiced by Democratic Presidents, the "socialism" story isn't quite that scary any more-- except to those in the Republican "base."

Firing up the base is all that this story is good for.

[BetterThanEver]

Obama's messages are worrying me. i don't like McCain, but i completely disagree with Obama on a lot of issues. i just hope none of his plans pass the congress after he gets elected. the whole trade protectionism, taxing business, health care, other plans he promised are going to end us costing us more in the long term.

It won't cost as much as the spendaholic Bush policies, of cutting taxes on the rich, and increased defense spending.

He can save hundreds of billions of dollars by discontinuing the war in Iraq. The estimated cost of the war so far is over $ 700 billion.

The tax cuts towards the middle class will make up for the increased tax rate(payroll+income) that the middle class pay over the upper class. It would be a continual economic stimulus package throughout his term instead of the one time $600 shot.

[TheFreak]

The truth is, unless Obama doesn't want to get elected again, and wants to drag all the House Democrats with him in 2010, he won't go anywhere near socialism.


Lord, you could say the exact same thing about so many of the things McCain supposedly wants to do if elected, in the eyes of the "paranoid left".

[adoo]

You are as socialist as Obama. McCain supported the BIGGEST socialist policy ever, $700B worth. So did GWB, aren't they socialists as well ?

[BasuraBlanca]

Obama IS the American dream. He's a shining example of what can be done with hard work, and dedication.


As well as Un-Patriotic and Un-American.

He doesn't know anything about strong Patriotic beliefs. He should have had his azz serving in the military. No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.

Does it seem right that you can lead the armed forces, but have never served it in? Just like high school principals used to be teachers, and all police chiefs used to be street cops.....

But don't worry, Obama is here to rescue us. :rolleyes: He'll make it all better.

[Trader_Jorge]

What concerns me greatly is how Obama plans to steal the American Dream of Latinos.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ialgxKBiMoU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ialgxKBiMoU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Otra vez -- Obama habla bastante, no dice nada, y hace menos.

[BlastOff]

^WAAAAAAAAAAAH. Get over it already.

[surrender]

As well as Un-Patriotic and Un-American.

He doesn't know anything about strong Patriotic beliefs. He should have had his azz serving in the military. No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.

Does it seem right that you can lead the armed forces, but have never served it in? Just like high school principals used to be teachers, and all police chiefs used to be street cops.....

But don't worry, Obama is here to rescue us. :rolleyes: He'll make it all better.

hahahahahahahahahahaha

[BasuraBlanca]

hahahahahahahahahahaha

You think he's proud to be American?

[conquistador#11]

Excluding latinos from florida(also home to corrupt salvadoran politicians), colombia, and venezuelan elitist now making their home here, who is with mccain? I know that in our catholic church, st. theresa, we're pro obama. Latinos, from latin america, we know better than to trust a right winger. They're the reason why we were refugees in the first place. Looking back, I'm glad our family chose the U.S instead of Australia for political asylum. It would have really sucked to have been a fan of rugby and not the NFL. =(

Is trader Jorger really daddy yankee? If so, I hate your music, but love your videos. They're hot.


http://blog.arconrad.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/mccain_daddyyankee-500x263.jpg

[surrender]

You think he's proud to be American?

No, he's a manchurian candidate. Thank you for showing me the light

Excluding latinos from florida(also home to corrupt salvadoran politicians), colombia, and venezuelan elitist now making their home here, who is with mccain? I know that in our catholic church, st. theresa, we're pro obama. Latinos, from latin america, we know better than to trust a right winger. They're the reason why we were refugees in the first place. Looking back, I'm glad our family chose the U.S instead of Australia for political asylum. It would have really sucked to have been a fan of rugby and not the NFL. =(

Is trader Jorger really daddy yankee? If so, I hate your music, but love your videos. They're hot.


http://blog.arconrad.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/mccain_daddyyankee-500x263.jpg

My family is Venezuelan and vehemently anti-Chavez, but they're also vehemently against the previous presidents who swindled the country out of millions (who all live in West Palm Beach, as it happens!). We're voting for Obama :o

[dandorotik]

As well as Un-Patriotic and Un-American.

He doesn't know anything about strong Patriotic beliefs. He should have had his azz serving in the military. No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.

Does it seem right that you can lead the armed forces, but have never served it in? Just like high school principals used to be teachers, and all police chiefs used to be street cops.....

But don't worry, Obama is here to rescue us. :rolleyes: He'll make it all better.


MYTH: All coaches should be former players, like Chuck Daly who led the Detroit Pistons to 2 NBA titles.
FACT: Daly never played basketball at any level in his life.

MYTH: All health care administrators should be former surgeons or nurses.
FACT: Most health care administrators (these are the people that run the hospital operations, sort of like how the Commander in Chief runs the military) never performed 1 medical procedure in their life.

MYTH: All C-level executives and senior management members should be former employees who worked their way up through the system.
FACT: WalMart. Nuff said.

While it can certainly be a benefit in some instances to have worked in a functional area of an industry prior to the transition to a management and/or executive position, it is NOT a requirement nor a precursor to success. One needs to have the ability to think strategically, to balance a big-picture perspective with small-detail and mid-detail initiatives, to supervise and motivate team members, to pinpoint and resolve problems in early stages (or react swiftly and decisively to fix existing problems), to handle large areas of responsibility, and to provide the creative vision that is the cornerstone for a successful corporation, faith-based organization, privately-held small/mid-size/large business, non-profit organization, or other operational entity.

In other words, all your theories are belong to us.

[mc mark]

As well as Un-Patriotic and Un-American.

He doesn't know anything about strong Patriotic beliefs. He should have had his azz serving in the military. No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.

Does it seem right that you can lead the armed forces, but have never served it in? Just like high school principals used to be teachers, and all police chiefs used to be street cops.....

But don't worry, Obama is here to rescue us. :rolleyes: He'll make it all better.


Oh boy! A live one!

[leebigez]

You think he's proud to be American?

Why wouldn't he be? A white mother and african father he never knew raised by white grandparents. Graduates from college , gets married,have kids,wins a senate seat and is running for president. Why wouldn't he be. Now as a black man in america, you know there are obstacles that no other minority has been through in this country and is still viewed as a threat. U can't use that as a excuse for not succeeding,but u know its there. Being american is great, but that doesn't mean our country doesn't have scars,wounds and faults that they still wnt acknowledge. People always talk about the what happen to jewish people during ww2, but how may pages are in the history books about the millions of slaves that died en route to america? Its so twisted that we have black history month. The history of america can't be written without african americans . So it shouldn't even be just a separate month, it should just be part of history.

I actually think its kinda sad that it has taken this long for america to accept the idea of a person of color becoming president. This race wouldn't even be close if barack wasn't black.

[mc mark]

This race wouldn't even be close if barack wasn't black.

TJ disagrees

He says the only reason Barack is the nominee is because he's black. He says if Barack was white, he'd be a nobody.

right Jorge?

[leebigez]

I mean if there was a democratic nominee like obama that wasn't black, this would be a blowout in every sense of the word. I mean, there isn't a person on this earth that can say mccain is even smarter than obama. TJ can talk or say what he wants, that's his opinion, but everyone know its always a glass ceiling of expectations when you're black. My pops was born in 1935 in jasper,tx. Served in korea and has a balance that should be tilted towards anger. He talks of stories in the military and just growing up in the south and I'm amazed he isn't that angry black man. He talks of being caution when talking about the race being over because he's seen a lot of banana in the tail pipe moves by "the man." Now, I can't walk in his shoes, but to think everything is even in this country across the races is naive'.

[FranchiseBlade]

As well as Un-Patriotic and Un-American.

He doesn't know anything about strong Patriotic beliefs. He should have had his azz serving in the military. No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.

Does it seem right that you can lead the armed forces, but have never served it in? Just like high school principals used to be teachers, and all police chiefs used to be street cops.....

But don't worry, Obama is here to rescue us. :rolleyes: He'll make it all better.
Please tell me one unpatriotic or un-American thing Obama is done.

As for patriotic things he's done I can list plenty. He turned down high paying jobs with investment banks to improve our nation by working in poverty stricken inner city Chicago. He helped with promoting education, reforming education, improving some of the poorest communities in our fine nation.

He served the nation as Senator and worked on several bills which helped to keep weapons from terrorists, improve border security, make funding of campaigns transparent, support a greater GI bill, etc. He's met with our men and women fighting in the field, visited wounded troops in hospitals, and plans to provide them with far better leadership than they've had the past 8 years.

So please tell me what unpatriotic things has Obama done? Name one thing he's done which makes you believe he doesn't love our nation.

It's hard to make that claim when he's sacrificed so much to serve it.

[rhadamanthus]

As well as Un-Patriotic and Un-American.

He doesn't know anything about strong Patriotic beliefs. He should have had his azz serving in the military. No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.

Does it seem right that you can lead the armed forces, but have never served it in? Just like high school principals used to be teachers, and all police chiefs used to be street cops.....

But don't worry, Obama is here to rescue us. :rolleyes: He'll make it all better.

STFU

:rolleyes:

[Nice Rollin]

You think he's proud to be American?
you're the problem with America. You think our country can't better itself? You think we're perfect? So you're not proud to be an American if you think you can do better? We're the greatest country in the world, but we havent acted like it. That doesnt make me Un-American cuz i say that. That actually makes me more American than you, because I want to be better...

[thadeus]

As well as Un-Patriotic and Un-American.

He doesn't know anything about strong Patriotic beliefs. He should have had his azz serving in the military. No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.

Does it seem right that you can lead the armed forces, but have never served it in? Just like high school principals used to be teachers, and all police chiefs used to be street cops.....

But don't worry, Obama is here to rescue us. :rolleyes: He'll make it all better.

I agree. Also, no one should be allowed to serve as president if they haven't served in the military and no one should be able to serve in the military if they haven't served in church and also been the quarterback on the high school football team.

[Nice Rollin]

No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.

Does it seem right that you can lead the armed forces, but have never served it in? Just like high school principals used to be teachers, and all police chiefs used to be street cops.....
LOL. your opinion is stupid.......and pornstars used to be stippers? how old are you? you watch too many movies.

[BetterThanEver]

No one should serve as president until they become a CEO of a large bank or economist, either. No one should be president until they become an abortion doctor, gyno doc, or given birth. No one should be president until they become a mortgage broker and real estate also.

[B-Bob]

I would like a president who has been a teacher! :)

[FranchiseBlade]

.....

The guy's name is white trash. He is purely a poll in this forum. I think I was wrong to feed the troll with a reply.

[Invisible Fan]

I would like a president who has been a teacher! :)

I think Edward James Olmos would be a great President.

[rimrocker]

No one should be allowed to serve as the President if they didn't serve in the military in my opinion.


So, no Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe? No FDR?

Do you count what Reagan and W. did as service?

[vlaurelio]

BasuraBlanca=Trader_Jorge

[Deji]

better topic over a beer than over a message board....but i'm consumed by it.


WHY?!! It's weird that no one outside maybe the liberation theology wing of the Jesuits has ever really addressed it.

Write a book. You're a smart guy. It would have no problem selling. I can see you on O'Reilly now, defending it...

:-)

[Tree-Mac]

im still wondering how obama is a socialist. i mean the CEO of exxon should not be paying the same tax rate as the single mother with a kid and two jobs...not too sure how that's socialism. seems like fairness and common sense.

Wait, how is this unfair? Are we talking rate, as in percentage of income here? If the CEO and the single mother pay the same amount of tax, then that's bull, but the same rate is as fair as you can get. So what is the complain? That the CEO makes more? Maybe he spent more time in school and is much smarter and works harder than the single mother? Just for that you're going to tax him at a higher rate? :confused: Are you serious? Punish for working harder and being smarter?

Also, the single mother can get government aid right? I'm no expert in these issues, but it seems so fair to have everyone taxed the same rate.

[Major]

In any case, after not seeing actual socialism practiced by Democratic Presidents, the "socialism" story isn't quite that scary any more-- except to those in the Republican "base."

Firing up the base is all that this story is good for.

I think Palin realized this socialist thing wasn't working too. She's now gone from calling him a liberal to a socialist to a communist:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/25/palin-obamas-tax-plans-co_n_137851.html

How long before T_J starts calling Obama a communist as well?

[BetterThanEver]

Wait, how is this unfair? Are we talking rate, as in percentage of income here? If the CEO and the single mother pay the same amount of tax, then that's bull, but the same rate is as fair as you can get. So what is the complain? That the CEO makes more? Maybe he spent more time in school and is much smarter and works harder than the single mother? Just for that you're going to tax him at a higher rate? :confused: Are you serious? Punish for working harder and being smarter?

Also, the single mother can get government aid right? I'm no expert in these issues, but it seems so fair to have everyone taxed the same rate.

Effective tax rate is different from marginal tax rates. There are huge loopholes that allow them make off like bandits. 95% of CEOs get huge tax benefits from being taxed at a 15%. While the regular people get hit by regressive taxes(income+payroll) up to 100k. The higher up in salary pay they go, the lower the % of income that is taxed by payroll taxes.

They aren't suffering from 50% tax rates like they would have you believe.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS121284+25-Aug-2008+PRN20080825


The 15th annual 'Executive Excess' report from the Institute for Policy
Studies and United for a Fair Economy calculates the annual cost to taxpayers
of the following tax and accounting loopholes that encourage excessive
executive pay:

1. Preferential capital gains treatment of carried interest ($2.6 billion)
2. Unlimited deferred pay ($80.6 million)
3. Offshore deferred compensation ($2.1 billion)
4. Unlimited deductibility of executive compensation ($5.2 billion)
5. Stock option accounting double standard ($10.0 billion)

"These loopholes allow top executives to avoid paying their fair share of
taxes. As a result, ordinary taxpayers wind up picking up the bill," explains
report co-author and IPS Associate Fellow Sam Pizzigati.


INDIRECT TAXPAYER SUPPORT FOR RUNAWAY PAY: Additional billions of taxpayer
dollars indirectly encourage excessive executive pay through government
contracts and bailouts that allow unlimited CEO compensation. The report
documents that 85 percent of top federal contractors paid their CEOs over 100
times the pay of average U.S. workers in 2007.

[KingCheetah]

Obama Will Rob Us of the American Dream
____

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/kchee/unlikely-1.jpg

[crash5179]

You are as socialist as Obama if you believe that. That's NOT the American Dream, Batman. Opportunity is created by hard work and preparation, NOT by the government sending you the money that other people worked to earn. The government sending money to lazy people who won't work is not how you create opportunity, you buffoon. Opportunity is created by INCENTIVES and MOTIVATION. That leads to hard work and productivity. Handing money to poor people who won't work and have no ambition is a waste of time. It takes money from those who have the drive needed to succeed, the drive needed to take risks and create jobs, and hands that money to people who will squander it.

Don't believe me? Here's wiki's explanation of the American Dream:

The American Dream is belief in the freedom that allows all citizens and residents of the United States to achieve their goals in life through hard work. Today, it often refers to one's material prosperity, which is dependent upon one's abilities and work ethic, and not on a rigid class structure.

Batman, you have a lot to learn about people if you believe that opportunity is created by redistributing money from earners to squanderers.


Piss on your short sighted and very narrow view on what you think is the American dream!

I have never voted democrat and YES I voted for George W. twice and YES I am voting for Obama this time!

Count me among the many who are disenchanted with YOUR view of the American dream and take exception to what YOU think happens to hard working American citizens!

Let me tell YOU about hard working American citizens. I work in an industry that requires dedication, a lot of week end and mid night work. Many of us have sacrificed hours and hours of time with our family and our children that we will never get back because we had a belief that hard work and loyalty WAS the American dream and would be repaid in the form of stability for my family along with the ability to save for retirement and send my children to college.

While getting rich would be nice the people in my industry really want to just be able to make an honest living and provide for the care of our families.

Over the last eight years and the last four in particular I saw a 16 year career with a major airline as a mechanic flushed down the drain as the upper 5% (crooks!) of this country took all of their share and most of mine as well. I continued to work my ass off as many of my fellow employees did as oil men like DICK CHENEY and GEORGE BUSH have helped destroy the aviation world by allowing Oil Company’s to make record profits with no consequences.

On top of that I watched as the upper 5% in my own company secure their own future by cutting my pay and benefits so that they could line their own pockets with pay raises, retention bonuses and bonuses paid for the mental stress of having to make the TOUGH decisions. I sure think they need to be rewarded for having to put so many of their own employees on the streets so they could send OUR JOBS OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

My last actual pay raise was in 2001. I make 15 thousand dollars a year less right now than I did in 2001. On April 2 of this year I helped close and lock the doors to my second airline in 5 years that either went out of business or stopped doing business in my city.

Couple that with the fact that my electric bill has doubled since deregulation (that was suppose to make it cheaper). Gas has quadrupled since 2001 (which acts as a fairly substantial pay cut in itself). What used to be a fairly substantial 401K that I thought I could count on for retirement is now non existent.

So my friend I say to you SCREW YOU and YOUR IDEA of HARDWORKING PEOPLE and you’re so called AMERICAN DREAM.

SCREW the 5% that has consistently screwed me over the course of the last 8 years.

SCREW the DAMN REPUBLICANS!

I never voted for Bill Clinton and I did vote for George W twice. You know what? My quality of life was a lot better and the American Dream seemed a lot more of a reality when Clinton was president.

During George's eight years it feels as if the American Dream has been yanked out from under my feet like a rug.

On Tuesday, November 4th I will do something I have never done before, I will vote democrat. I will vote for Obama because I am ready for the upper 5% to pay for a change. I am tired of being the hard working loyal worker (which I have been) that has sacrificed and suffered so the upper 5% has been able to make record profits.

If I sound bitter that is because I am. Almost all hardworking people I know are bitter at what has happened over the last eight years. Obama will win and it will be a landslide victory because people like me are bitter.

[Nolen]

Piss on your short sighted and very narrow view on what you think is the American dream!


Preach it son!!

[Nice Rollin]

Piss on your short sighted and very narrow view on what you think is the American dream!

I have never voted democrat and YES I voted for George W. twice and YES I am voting for Obama this time!

Count me among the many who are disenchanted with YOUR view of the American dream and take exception to what YOU think happens to hard working American citizens!

Let me tell YOU about hard working American citizens. I work in an industry that requires dedication, a lot of week end and mid night work. Many of us have sacrificed hours and hours of time with our family and our children that we will never get back because we had a belief that hard work and loyalty WAS the American dream and would be repaid in the form of stability for my family along with the ability to save for retirement and send my children to college.

While getting rich would be nice the people in my industry really want to just be able to make an honest living and provide for the care of our families.

Over the last eight years and the last four in particular I saw a 16 year career with a major airline as a mechanic flushed down the drain as the upper 5% (crooks!) of this country took all of their share and most of mine as well. I continued to work my ass off as many of my fellow employees did as oil men like DICK CHENEY and GEORGE BUSH have helped destroy the aviation world by allowing Oil Company’s to make record profits with no consequences.

On top of that I watched as the upper 5% in my own company secure their own future by cutting my pay and benefits so that they could line their own pockets with pay raises, retention bonuses and bonuses paid for the mental stress of having to make the TOUGH decisions. I sure think they need to be rewarded for having to put so many of their own employees on the streets so they could send OUR JOBS OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

My last actual pay raise was in 2001. I make 15 thousand dollars a year less right now than I did in 2001. On April 2 of this year I helped close and lock the doors to my second airline in 5 years that either went out of business or stopped doing business in my city.

Couple that with the fact that my electric bill has doubled since deregulation (that was suppose to make it cheaper). Gas has quadrupled since 2001 (which acts as a fairly substantial pay cut in itself). What used to be a fairly substantial 401K that I thought I could count on for retirement is now non existent.

So my friend I say to you SCREW YOU and YOUR IDEA of HARDWORKING PEOPLE and you’re so called AMERICAN DREAM.

SCREW the 5% that has consistently screwed me over the course of the last 8 years.

SCREW the DAMN REPUBLICANS!

I never voted for Bill Clinton and I did vote for George W twice. You know what? My quality of life was a lot better and the American Dream seemed a lot more of a reality when Clinton was president.

During George's eight years it feels as if the American Dream has been yanked out from under my feet like a rug.

On Tuesday, November 4th I will do something I have never done before, I will vote democrat. I will vote for Obama because I am ready for the upper 5% to pay for a change. I am tired of being the hard working loyal worker (which I have been) that has sacrificed and suffered so the upper 5% has been able to make record profits.

If I sound bitter that is because I am. Almost all hardworking people I know are bitter at what has happened over the last eight years. Obama will win and it will be a landslide victory because people like me are bitter.

great post.... :D

[ling ling]

On Tuesday, November 4th I will do something I have never done before, I will vote democrat. I will vote for Obama because I am ready for the upper 5% to pay for a change. I am tired of being the hard working loyal worker (which I have been) that has sacrificed and suffered so the upper 5% has been able to make record profits.

If I sound bitter that is because I am. Almost all hardworking people I know are bitter at what has happened over the last eight years. Obama will win and it will be a landslide victory because people like me are bitter.

There are many reasons why we are where be are and I understand your frustration. Spraying oil into a fire is not going to put the fire out.

Many American are suffering just like you. I just want to address the Obama tax plan and how it will hurt you more than it will benefit you.

Obama wants to raise corporate income tax. On the surface, it sounds good to tax those gready little bxxxx.

But, when you look at it more closely, Your company's cost of doing business will go up. The cost of your companie's suppliers doing business will go up. Those increases are going to be passed to your company's bottom line. Where to you think the offset for the increase of doing business will come from? Additional decrease in salary, decrease in benefits and/or layoffs?

Will the $1000 tax redistribution to you offset the losses you will likely see?

[crash5179]

There are many reasons why we are where be are and I understand your frustration. Spraying oil into a fire is not going to put the fire out.

Many American are suffering just like you. I just want to address the Obama tax plan and how it will hurt you more than it will benefit you.

Obama wants to raise corporate income tax. On the surface, it sounds good to tax those gready little bxxxx.

But, when you look at it more closely, Your company's cost of doing business will go up. The cost of your companie's suppliers doing business will go up. Those increases are going to be passed to your company's bottom line. Where to you think the offset for the increase of doing business will come from? Additional decrease in salary, decrease in benefits and/or layoffs?

Will the $1000 tax redistribution to you offset the losses you will likely see?

The idea of keeping tax low for big business is that they will grow and create more jobs. That is not happening. The corporate chiefs are putting the tax breaks into their pockets at my expense. On top of that they have shipped many of my jobs out of the country.

You are worried about the cost of business going up? What about when McCain makes his insurance tax. You will loose your company insurance and his little 5000 dollar tax rebate will not come close to covering the difference.

Like I said in my earlier post...I am tire of crooked big business execs taking the money and giving us the shaft.

The Republicans had my vote and an 8 year chance and completely blew it. Our econamy is so bad right now it is hard to imagine a true recovery.

I will not reward the Republican Party for 8 years of historically bad leadership by giving them my vote so they can continue to screw me for another 4 years.

My vote goes to Obama...period!

[Rashmon]

Sounds like the re-education camps will have quite a tough task, but you all will learn to love America again.



snicker

[FranchiseBlade]

There are many reasons why we are where be are and I understand your frustration. Spraying oil into a fire is not going to put the fire out.

Many American are suffering just like you. I just want to address the Obama tax plan and how it will hurt you more than it will benefit you.

Obama wants to raise corporate income tax. On the surface, it sounds good to tax those gready little bxxxx.

But, when you look at it more closely, Your company's cost of doing business will go up. The cost of your companie's suppliers doing business will go up. Those increases are going to be passed to your company's bottom line. Where to you think the offset for the increase of doing business will come from? Additional decrease in salary, decrease in benefits and/or layoffs?

Will the $1000 tax redistribution to you offset the losses you will likely see?That's called the trickle down theory of economics, and it hasn't ever worked and doesn't work.

Let me tell you why Obama's tax plan will help you. It will put more money in the hands of consumers who will spend it, and increase profits for businesses who will in turn hire more employees and invest in providing better goods and services.

The wealthiest corporations already make plenty of money. If instead of making 50 billion this year they only make 45 billion, they still have plenty to cover the cost of doing business. It's a stupid argument to pretend like they won't.

Furthermore, corporations that keep jobs and add new jobs domestically will get tax breaks and incentives under Obama's plan.

Your theory on giving tax cuts to big businesses and wealthy has been tried the last 8 years, and left us in the mess we are in now. To believe that all of a sudden it will be great is just ridiculous.

[Landlord Landry]

Obama simply does not understand America and what makes it great.

yea, pretty much....

[Nolen]

Trickle down economics blah blah blah

This ideology has had it's time in the sun. It has had it's chance to prove itself. It is a failure. It is a proven failure.

We've already seen what happens when we give tax breaks to the richest. They keep the money and the middle class/poor stagnate. Enough is enough. This ideology is a hollow, proven failure. Time for the grownups who know better to fix this country.

[FranchiseBlade]

yea, pretty much....
Yeah, Obama believes that what makes America great is working together to see it prosper, to carry out a foreign policy with honor, dignity, and engender respect in the world because of the way we govern ourselves.

Obama believes that America should be a place where someone not from a privileged background like himself has the opportunity through hard work, and dedication to give them themselves to accomplish anything... even the presidency.

Obama believes the focus in helping the economy should be the middle class, and working men and women.

I guess if you don't believe he understand America then that's the kind of misunderstanding our nation needs.

[ling ling]

In an interview w/ Charles Gibson

GIBSON: All right. You have, however, said you would favor an increase in the capital gains tax. As a matter of fact, you said on CNBC, and I quote, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton," which was 28 percent. It's now 15 percent. That's almost a doubling, if you went to 28 percent.

But actually, Bill Clinton, in 1997, signed legislation that dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent.

OBAMA: Right.

GIBSON: And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent.

OBAMA: Right.

GIBSON: And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased; the government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down.
So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?

OBAMA: Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness.

We saw an article today which showed that the top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year — $29 billion for 50 individuals. And part of what has happened is that those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair.

And what I want is not oppressive taxation. I want businesses to thrive, and I want people to be rewarded for their success. But what I also want to make sure is that our tax system is fair and that we are able to finance health care for Americans who currently don't have it and that we're able to invest in our infrastructure and invest in our schools.

And you can't do that for free. And you can't take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children and our grandchildren, and then say that you're cutting taxes, which is essentially what John McCain has been talking about. And that is irresponsible. I believe in the principle that you pay as you go. And, you know, you don't propose tax cuts, unless you are closing other tax breaks for individuals. And you don't increase spending, unless you're eliminating some spending or you're finding some new revenue. That's how we got an additional $4 trillion worth of debt under George Bush. That is helping to undermine our economy. And it's going to change when I'm president of the United States.

GIBSON: But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.

OBAMA: Well, that might happen, or it might not. It depends on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going. I think the biggest problem that we've got on Wall Street right now is the fact that we got have a housing crisis that this president has not been attentive to and that it took John McCain three tries before he got it right. And if we can stabilize that market, and we can get credit flowing again, then I think we'll see stocks do well. And once again, I think we can generate the revenue that we need to run this government and hopefully to pay down some of this debt.

Gibson presumed that Obama's goal in raising the capital gains tax was to increase government revenue. Obama's answer suggests that his goal isn't that at all; it's meeting some arbitrary definition of "fairness" that he sees. Apparently when investors are paying a tax rate on their investment gains akin to the income tax rate of secretaries, the world will be fair.

[ling ling]

-- Obama proposes to increase the capital gains tax rate by 33%.

-- Obama proposes to increase the tax rate on dividends by 33%.

-- Obama proposes to raise the top payroll tax rate by between 16%-32%.

-- Obama proposes a new payroll tax on employers to help pay for national health insurance.

-- Obama proposes to reinstate the death tax, which is being phased out under current law, with a new top marginal tax rate of 45%.

-- Obama proposes tax increases for corporations as well, such as the windfall profits tax on oil companies.

[Rashmon]

-- Obama proposes to increase the capital gains tax rate by 33%.

-- Obama proposes to increase the tax rate on dividends by 33%.

-- Obama proposes to raise the top payroll tax rate by between 16%-32%.

-- Obama proposes a new payroll tax on employers to help pay for national health insurance.

-- Obama proposes to reinstate the death tax, which is being phased out under current law, with a new top marginal tax rate of 45%.

-- Obama proposes tax increases for corporations as well, such as the windfall profits tax on oil companies.

What's the downside?

[ling ling]

What's the downside?

The downside is, that's just the start.

[FranchiseBlade]

In an interview w/ Charles Gibson

GIBSON: All right. You have, however, said you would favor an increase in the capital gains tax. As a matter of fact, you said on CNBC, and I quote, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton," which was 28 percent. It's now 15 percent. That's almost a doubling, if you went to 28 percent.

But actually, Bill Clinton, in 1997, signed legislation that dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent.

OBAMA: Right.

GIBSON: And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent.

OBAMA: Right.

GIBSON: And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased; the government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down.
So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?

OBAMA: Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness.

We saw an article today which showed that the top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year — $29 billion for 50 individuals. And part of what has happened is that those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair.

And what I want is not oppressive taxation. I want businesses to thrive, and I want people to be rewarded for their success. But what I also want to make sure is that our tax system is fair and that we are able to finance health care for Americans who currently don't have it and that we're able to invest in our infrastructure and invest in our schools.

And you can't do that for free. And you can't take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children and our grandchildren, and then say that you're cutting taxes, which is essentially what John McCain has been talking about. And that is irresponsible. I believe in the principle that you pay as you go. And, you know, you don't propose tax cuts, unless you are closing other tax breaks for individuals. And you don't increase spending, unless you're eliminating some spending or you're finding some new revenue. That's how we got an additional $4 trillion worth of debt under George Bush. That is helping to undermine our economy. And it's going to change when I'm president of the United States.

GIBSON: But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.

OBAMA: Well, that might happen, or it might not. It depends on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going. I think the biggest problem that we've got on Wall Street right now is the fact that we got have a housing crisis that this president has not been attentive to and that it took John McCain three tries before he got it right. And if we can stabilize that market, and we can get credit flowing again, then I think we'll see stocks do well. And once again, I think we can generate the revenue that we need to run this government and hopefully to pay down some of this debt.

Gibson presumed that Obama's goal in raising the capital gains tax was to increase government revenue. Obama's answer suggests that his goal isn't that at all; it's meeting some arbitrary definition of "fairness" that he sees. Apparently when investors are paying a tax rate on their investment gains akin to the income tax rate of secretaries, the world will be fair.
Of course this has been shown to be misleading. The revenues have gone up. But the revenues have always gone up, and since Bush's tax cuts the revenues have gone up less than they did in other administrations.

[rhadamanthus]

Of course this has been shown to be misleading. The revenues have gone up. But the revenues have always gone up, and since Bush's tax cuts the revenues have gone up less than they did in other administrations.


Nobody ever listens to this neat little truth. Least of all the great trickle-down cheerleader known as FAIL FAIL.

Link with the proof (http://home.att.net/~rdavis2/taxcuts.html)

[pgabriel]

i'll say this for the umpteenth time, when you increase the capital gains tax, or decrease it, the revenue from the tax is skewed, because depending on the case, people will either cash out the year before the increase, or wait to cash out the year of the decrease.

its simple logic, and quite frankly i'm disappointed obama hasn't been prepped on this. he was caught off guard in a debate with hilary on this subject but he should have been prepped by now.

[Trader_Jorge]

i'll say this for the umpteenth time, when you increase the capital gains tax, or decrease it, the revenue from the tax is skewed, because depending on the case, people will either cash out the year before the increase, or wait to cash out the year of the decrease.

its simple logic, and quite frankly i'm disappointed obama hasn't been prepped on this. he was caught off guard in a debate with hilary on this subject but he should have been prepped by now.

I hate to dignify your ill-informed hypothesis with a response, but tell me pgabs, how people are going to game the system by selling stocks this year and avoiding cap gains next year? THERE ARE NO GAINS THIS YEAR, DEAR FRIEND. Good grief. You are hopeless.

[fadeaway]

I hate to dignify your ill-informed hypothesis with a response, but tell me pgabs, how people are going to game the system by selling stocks this year and avoiding cap gains next year? THERE ARE NO GAINS THIS YEAR, DEAR FRIEND. Good grief. You are hopeless.

Are you going to respond to crash5179's powerful post on page 9?

[pgabriel]

I hate to dignify your ill-informed hypothesis with a response, but tell me pgabs, how people are going to game the system by selling stocks this year and avoiding cap gains next year? THERE ARE NO GAINS THIS YEAR, DEAR FRIEND. Good grief. You are hopeless.

who's talking about just this year. the examples cited by charlie gibson are from the past, my friend.

[Deckard]

Piss on your short sighted and very narrow view on what you think is the American dream!

I have never voted democrat and YES I voted for George W. twice and YES I am voting for Obama this time!

Count me among the many who are disenchanted with YOUR view of the American dream and take exception to what YOU think happens to hard working American citizens!

Let me tell YOU about hard working American citizens. I work in an industry that requires dedication, a lot of week end and mid night work. Many of us have sacrificed hours and hours of time with our family and our children that we will never get back because we had a belief that hard work and loyalty WAS the American dream and would be repaid in the form of stability for my family along with the ability to save for retirement and send my children to college.

While getting rich would be nice the people in my industry really want to just be able to make an honest living and provide for the care of our families.

Over the last eight years and the last four in particular I saw a 16 year career with a major airline as a mechanic flushed down the drain as the upper 5% (crooks!) of this country took all of their share and most of mine as well. I continued to work my ass off as many of my fellow employees did as oil men like DICK CHENEY and GEORGE BUSH have helped destroy the aviation world by allowing Oil Company’s to make record profits with no consequences.

On top of that I watched as the upper 5% in my own company secure their own future by cutting my pay and benefits so that they could line their own pockets with pay raises, retention bonuses and bonuses paid for the mental stress of having to make the TOUGH decisions. I sure think they need to be rewarded for having to put so many of their own employees on the streets so they could send OUR JOBS OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

My last actual pay raise was in 2001. I make 15 thousand dollars a year less right now than I did in 2001. On April 2 of this year I helped close and lock the doors to my second airline in 5 years that either went out of business or stopped doing business in my city.

Couple that with the fact that my electric bill has doubled since deregulation (that was suppose to make it cheaper). Gas has quadrupled since 2001 (which acts as a fairly substantial pay cut in itself). What used to be a fairly substantial 401K that I thought I could count on for retirement is now non existent.

So my friend I say to you SCREW YOU and YOUR IDEA of HARDWORKING PEOPLE and you’re so called AMERICAN DREAM.

SCREW the 5% that has consistently screwed me over the course of the last 8 years.

SCREW the DAMN REPUBLICANS!

I never voted for Bill Clinton and I did vote for George W twice. You know what? My quality of life was a lot better and the American Dream seemed a lot more of a reality when Clinton was president.

During George's eight years it feels as if the American Dream has been yanked out from under my feet like a rug.

On Tuesday, November 4th I will do something I have never done before, I will vote Democrat. I will vote for Obama because I am ready for the upper 5% to pay for a change. I am tired of being the hard working loyal worker (which I have been) that has sacrificed and suffered so the upper 5% has been able to make record profits.

If I sound bitter that is because I am. Almost all hardworking people I know are bitter at what has happened over the last eight years. Obama will win and it will be a landslide victory because people like me are bitter.
Amazing post, crash. One of the best here in a long time.

[Invisible Fan]

I wish everyone would read that long Obamanomics article and discuss that instead.

[Astockmarketgod]

I hate to dignify your ill-informed hypothesis with a response, but tell me pgabs, how people are going to game the system by selling stocks this year and avoiding cap gains next year? THERE ARE NO GAINS THIS YEAR, DEAR FRIEND. Good grief. You are hopeless.


well I actually am making good money this year on the markets...

but seriously... if your worried about the tax you have to pay... then your not making enough money...


didnt the Republicons... want people to invest their retirement savings... and invest your Social Security funds into the markets a few years back...

I wonder how thats going.... LOL

[Nolen]

Hey TJ, in case you missed Crash's fantastic rant, it has been quoted in full above. Your response?

[DaDakota]

Trickle down should be renamed...Pissed on....

DD

[Cannonball]

Trickle down should be renamed...Pissed on....

DD

Calvin is a Republican.

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

I really do want to be gone from D&D. But this thread isn't something I can ignore as I find the very premise of it to be disturbing.

The idea that only rich people are hard working is absolutely ridiculous and untrue. The very fact that guys like us, and including TJ - Trader Jorge especially, have time to post here is proof in and of itself that they are not the hardest working americans out there. So how is TJ to judge?

Fact is, there are people who work for far less, work their butts off, multiple shifts even....and are poor. Yet it's only the people who make so much money that they can afford multi-million dollar homes who are the hard working ones and deserve a break????

Simply not true. I don't think you sir, mr. TJ has any clue what the american dream is if you think a progressive tax is anti-American.

If you think that rewards laziness, then honestly, I would say maybe you should wonder if you don't have too much leisure time on your hand and perhaps should spend more of it chasing your american dream than ripping on democrats. Might get you there faster.

[Cannonball]

Trickle down should be renamed...Pissed on....

DD

Here's what pisses me off about trickle down economics.

It got pitched to us arguing that big business will have extra money from not paying taxes and that they pass these savings down the chain of command and everybody will get a little something extra. Of course it doesn't work because people are greedy and what does get passed down only makes it so far before it's all gone.

So now the argument against ending those tax cuts is that will make big business seek to recoup the money they were saving under the Bush tax cuts by lowering wages and benefits and laying off workers.

It's like the GOP is trying to hold us hostage. What they're basically saying is yeah, trickle down economics didn't work like we said it would but we're used to it now and if you try to get rid of it then the greedy SOB's at the top are going to make you pay. They're not going to let their yearly income drop so they're going to make you pay for the increased taxes by laying off workers and decreasing wages and benefits. You'd be better off if we hadn't implemented those cuts but tough titty. Sorry that our tax breaks for the rich didn't benefit you but it's too late now. Deal with it.

What a bunch of assholes.