Bud Selig should be fired. Now.

[msn]

...or impeached. Or shot. Or whatever it is they do to commissioners who turn out to be dumbasses.

Astros
Friday night: stay up all night while a storm beats the hell out of your city.
Satuday day: make provisions for your family while getting yourself together for an unplanned road trip
Saturday night: sleep horribly because there's no air conditioning and no power
Sunday morning: get up at 5am after precious little sleep in the last two nights, drive to Minute Maid. Get on a bus. Ride to some airport somewhere, board a plane.
Sunday afternoon: arrive in Milwaukee a couple of hours before the game
One hour later: BP
One hour later: "Home" game begins. The stadium has exclusively Cubs fans, your family is back home with no power, you've had no sleep in 48 hours.

Cubs
Friday night: get a good night's rest after the latest meltdown. Your suckball POS team is 3-7 in its last ten, and you're facing a tough road trip in Houston this Sunday.
Saturday: enjoy your complimentary day off. You find out you won't have to go to Houston, after all
Sunday: get up around 11am after another good night's rest; drive an hour and a half to Milwaukee, where 26,000 screaming Cub fans await you on this "road" game.

Yeah, that's fair. That's "neutral".

Can grown men really be this stupid? Fire Bud Selig, a dumbass for the ages.

[thacabbage]

While I certainly agree that this decision was deplorable and the antithesis of ensuring neutrality (which should be the basis of a commissioner's decision making in his role as arbiter), it is not too difficult to see, given the logistics of the situation, how he would try to take the easy way out and schedules the games in Milwaukee given his previous ties to that organization. It wasn't hard to see coming.

The outrage should be directed towards Drayton Mclane who should not have let Selig get away with this crime so easily. I realize there exists some need for diplomacy and compromise in entrepreneurship, but there comes a point in certain circumstances when you just have to stand up for your team and not get walked over. Drayton has demonstrated again why he is a gutless POS.

[Ric]

Can grown men really be this stupid? Fire Bud Selig, a dumbass for the ages.
what, honestly, was a better alternative, msn? i don't like the decision either, but it doesn't sound like selig picked this one over several better options, and mlb may have been hand-cuffed by mclane.

mclane should have sent his team (and their familes) to dallas on friday and waited. if he really did wait too long to pull triggers - and did so to preserve 3 home games (and in the fallout, jeopardized at least 1 much more lucurative home playoff game) - then he's just as much to blame.

[thacabbage]

I'm not in Houston. What is the general reaction from the local sports media there in regards to this? Blame towards Selig?; blame towards Mclane?; apathy?

[cdastros]

I'm not in Houston. What is the general reaction from the local sports media there in regards to this? Blame towards Selig?; blame towards Mclane?; apathy?

The sports media is to busy covering Ike and recovering from Ike.

[msn]

what, honestly, was a better alternative, msn?
Are you kidding me?

Atlanta. Phoenix. Arlington. Seattle. Tampa/St Pete. Hell, St. Louis would have been *great*, as they hate the Cubs there. ANYWHERE but Chicago or Milwaukee, or Minneapolis, or Detroit.

Or just play a double-header on Monday and a game after the season.

Bottom line, it's not my job to find the best solution, Ric. It's Bud Selig's job. And he failed, miserably. This "neutral" location is so heavily in favor of Chicago it's ridiculous. National media members are pointing it out. MLB should be embarrassed.

I don't think that kind of bias can be rewarded with continued employment.

i don't like the decision either, but it doesn't sound like selig picked this one over several better options
I disagree. Precisely one half of MLB stadiums were vacant yesterday and today, and this "well, we can't predict the weather" is pure unadulterated bull****.

and mlb may have been hand-cuffed by mclane.
Substantiate that, or else it's pointless and irresponsible conjecture.

mclane should have sent his team (and their familes) to dallas on friday and waited. if he really did wait too long to pull triggers - and did so to preserve 3 home games (and in the fallout, jeopardized at least 1 much more lucurative home playoff game) - then he's just as much to blame.
My employer didn't pay me to evacuate my family, but OK. We typically expect FAR more from franchise owners than other business owners, don't we?

I'm fine with holding McLane's feet to the fire on this. But pointing to McLane in order to exculpate Brewer Selig is ridiculous. His decision flat-out, hands down influenced the wild card race in a way that unfortunately we'll never be able to measure. Sure, the Astros could certainly have been swept at home (quite likely, given their streaky nature this season). But we'll never know--we'll never know because Selig put the games in Chicago's back yard.

Inexcusable.

I know I won't see it, but I'd love to see him unemployed. Like at 4:00 today, even.

[BrooksBall]

mclane should have sent his team (and their familes) to dallas on friday and waited.

I've heard this mentioned a few times. How would that have affected the outcome even if some of the players were willing to leave their families alone w/out electricity? Why would that change Selig's decision to play at Miller Park?

[msn]

I've heard this mentioned a few times. How would that have affected the outcome even if some of the players were willing to leave their families alone w/out electricity? Why would that change Selig's decision to play at Miller Park?
Selig clearly was doing what he wanted. McLane wasn't the only one gaffing; MLBPA was chirping even louder. All on deaf ears. His decision was made.

[magnetik]

**** Selig. it looks like we are probably going to get 1 or 2 hits for the whole series. Yeah.. neutral my ass. I hope there is a blizzard soon in Chicago so they can play at a "neutral" site like STL.

[JunkyardDwg]

From what I understand, the players were allowed to take their families with them on this trip, so it's not like they left them behind...at least not all of them.

[msn]

From what I understand, the players were allowed to take their families with them on this trip, so it's not like they left them behind...at least not all of them.
That's good.

[bobrek]

I've heard this mentioned a few times. How would that have affected the outcome even if some of the players were willing to leave their families alone w/out electricity? Why would that change Selig's decision to play at Miller Park?

This particular scenario would have allowed the Astros to "travel better" and essentially go anywhere Saturday instead of having to travel/play Sunday. Of course at the time this decision would have had to be made, it was still possible for Ike to affect Dallas more than it did.

They should have simply played an early DH today (start at 10 or 11) and then play the 3rd game on the 29th.

I am also confused as to why a "neutral" site was necessary (unless it is just semantics). Everything possible should have been done to give the Astros more of a "home" field advantage.

[Groogrux]

It should've been Tampa. Unless they had a previously scheduled event there Sunday, there is no excuse they didn't either play a DH there yesterday or play an early game today there.

What a bull**** league. I wish I had the discipline to stick to a promise to never give them another penny of my hard-earned money, but I love baseball too much. But if we end up not making the playoffs this year, **** them.

[msn]

Calling for his firing is over-the-top. I'm just over-the-top pissed about it now; I realize that's unreasonable. I don't wish on anyone the loss of employment.

But the decision is not defensible. It's hard core stupid at best, or deviantly pro-Cubs at worst.

I may not really want him fired, but I'd piss in his Wheaties in a heartbeat. He should be reprimanded publicly by the MLBPA and the owners' association. The Sporting News, Yahoo!, ESPN, Fox Sports, and whoever else should all print articles blasting him for this insanity.

[Surfguy]

The fact is...there are no truly neutral sites when it comes to playing the Cubs. Even if the games were played at The Ballpark in Arlington...it would have been 3/4s cub fans. However, at least it would have been in the South...instead of the dip**** North. Somebody needs to re-paint "Yankees go home!" on the Harris County Courthouse in Clear Lake. Long live the Confederacy!

[Ric]

Atlanta. Phoenix. Arlington. Seattle. Tampa/St Pete. Hell, St. Louis would have been *great*, as they hate the Cubs there. ANYWHERE but Chicago or Milwaukee, or Minneapolis, or Detroit.
phoenix, arlington and tampa bay are all hosting home games tonight, msn. and they may hate the cubs in st. louis, but do you honestly think cardinal fans would be buying the tickets? it would have been just as pro-cub.

as for atlanta, apparently rain was in the forecast. you're not going to ask 2 teams to go somewhere if there's a chance the game won't be played. as for seattle - as rough as the trip to milwaukee likely was, seattle would have been worse – further and you plow through a couple of time zones.

Or just play a double-header on Monday and a game after the season.
is a DH on monday really, ultimately, any better given what these guys went through this weekend?

and do you realize you might compromise the game postponing it until season's end? what if chicago has the division wrapped up, their rotation set and their team healthy: do they take a chance and play the regulars or do they play scrubs? and is that fair to milwaukee/philadelphia?

Bottom line, it's not my job to find the best solution, Ric. It's Bud Selig's job. And he failed, miserably. This "neutral" location is so heavily in favor of Chicago it's ridiculous. National media members are pointing it out. MLB should be embarrassed.
look, they could have played these games ANYWHERE; the astro players were in no condition to play them. having to go to milwaukee was not the real tragedy here.

I disagree. Precisely one half of MLB stadiums were vacant yesterday and today, and this "well, we can't predict the weather" is pure unadulterated bull****.
so displacing two teams on a moment's notice (including all the logistical planning) to an area where the game may be delayed or even canceled (and possibly having to go through ALL of this again) is bull****?

Substantiate that, or else it's pointless and irresponsible conjecture.
it's been mentioned in every article, msn – he reportedly waited until the last minute hoping the games could still be played here. the chronicle reported it and selig, in an interview with the chronicle, all but substantiated it.

My employer didn't pay me to evacuate my family, but OK. We typically expect FAR more from franchise owners than other business owners, don't we?
well, i'm guessing you don't generate tens of millions of dollars for your employer, either. the family inclusion would have been a "nice" gesture from mclane, given the extraordinary circumstances.

His decision flat-out, hands down influenced the wild card race in a way that unfortunately we'll never be able to measure. Sure, the Astros could certainly have been swept at home (quite likely, given their streaky nature this season). But we'll never know--we'll never know because Selig put the games in Chicago's back yard.
msn, i think you're forgetting a bigger factor here, a little storm called ike. there isn't a stadium in baseball that would have lessened the astros' burden; asking them to play ANYWHERE would have been unfair. and yet, based on baseball's tight schedule, there really wasn't an alternative that wasn't equally wrought with issues.

in the realm of just baseball, it's an unfortunate situation without any easy answers.

milwaukee wasn't ideal; there weren't better alternatives.

[Ric]

Even if the games were played at The Ballpark in Arlington...it would have been 3/4s cub fans.
the astros actually have a pretty strong following in dallas; but ike's path, and a home game there monday, made BIA impossible.

[msn]

milwaukee wasn't ideal; there weren't better alternatives.
Tampa.

[Ric]

What a bull**** league. I wish I had the discipline to stick to a promise to never give them another penny of my hard-earned money, but I love baseball too much. But if we end up not making the playoffs this year, **** them.
losing 17 of 20 and then 22 of 31 would have more to do with us missing out on the postseason than these two games in milwaukee.

and you know, for all the rancor - we're f'ing 2.5 games back!! not over yet, hombres.....

[msn]

milwaukee wasn't ideal; there weren't better alternatives.
I disagree that Seattle was not a better alternative. "Plowing through time zones" is something the Astros do all the time. You correctly point out that it's unfair they would have to travel *at all*. Fine. How about travelling to one of the 29 (14 available) MLB cities where they *WON"T* be jeered and booed the whole damn game??

Defend this all you like, Ric. It's bull****.

[Ric]

Tampa.
they host the red sox tonight.

[msn]

they host the red sox tonight.
Your point was?

One game yesterday. A 1:05 game today. Stadium could easily be ready in time for a 7:05 game tonight.

[Ric]

I disagree that Seattle was not a better alternative. "Plowing through time zones" is something the Astros do all the time.
on the backend of riding out a hurricane? they do that all the time?... really?....

so you've been up 24, 36, 48 straight hours with no power... and a longer trip is somehow better? and don't forget: they now have to travel all the way to florida for a game tomorrow night. as tired and rundown as they likely are, i'm guessing that's going to ultimately be easier from milwaukee than seattle.

How about travelling to one of the 29 (14 available) MLB cities where they *WON"T* be jeered and booed the whole damn game??
again, what was the better - and more importantly, viable - alternative?

and do you REALLY think playing in front of 20K cub fans is what did the astros in? they're freaking 5-4 this year at wrigley, foer heaven's sake.

i'm guessing - wildly, i'm sure - that riding out ike was a slightly bigger factor.

Defend this all you like, Ric. It's bull****.
i'm not defending it, msn; but this is like jumping up and down that the astros should have added better pitching this winter and when confronted with the question of who, sticking your fingers in your ear and stomping your feet, "more pitching! more pitching!"

it is, from a striclty baseball perspective, a crappy situation no matter how you try to slice it.

[Ric]

Your point was?
One game yesterday. A 1:05 game today. Stadium could easily be ready in time for a 7:05 game tonight.
are you under the impression players show up at 6:55 for a 7:05 game? they usually take the field some 1-3 hours before the game, not to mention having to share locker rooms, etc., and the logistics of trying to organize all that, plus press and broadcast teams...

you can't snap your fingers and make something like a mlb game happen.

and what if the game goes extra innings, msn? hell, the astros and cubs played an 11-inning, 4:17 game just 13 days ago.

it's not viable, msn, to schedule two different games, involving four different teams, on the same day in the same stadium.

come on......

[jgreen91]

If the astros had won these two games in Milwaukee, msn and company wouldn't be complaining about a thing....

[Ric]

If the astros had won these two games in Milwaukee, msn and company wouldn't be complaining about a thing....
i certainly think cooler heads would see this from a different perspective; i understand the rancor, and the whole thing undoubtedly sucks.

but it was a lose-lose situation for the astros, unfortunately. and given how they played, NO ALTERNATIVE would have lessened their burden.

[sccdct34]

Well its over now, we can still win this thing. We got Roy O starting us off in Flordia, just the right guy to get us on track. We are 2.5 down with 13 to go not impossible. We can not change the crap of the last two days but just look at whats left and hope for the best.

The Astros have overcome alot this season who is to say that they won't overcome this.

[JaWindex]

If the astros had won these two games in Milwaukee, msn and company wouldn't be complaining about a thing....
But they lost and that can't be ignored. The situation was stacked against the 'stros and you know it. I guess noone should ever complain about anything.

[Boomhauer]

Drayton has to take the blame also. Anywhere but Milwaukee. We are trying to catch the Brewers and they want to play at a "neutral" site. :rolleyes: Not to mention it's easier for Cubs fans that do not live that far away from Milwaukee. Drayton dropped the ball on this and may have cost the Astros a playoff spot. There were other options that could have been taken. Shoot,they play at minor league stadiums during spring training, they could have used Dell Diamond in Round Rock or Whataburger Field in Corpus Christi. If Drayton wasn't buddies with Bud Selig and had more of a backbone he wouldn't have his team playing in a rivals stadium with a wild card spot on the line.

[Boomhauer]

If the astros had won these two games in Milwaukee, msn and company wouldn't be complaining about a thing....

I was complaining before they even played the games, so that is total bull crap.

[hjg877]

are you under the impression players show up at 6:55 for a 7:05 game? they usually take the field some 1-3 hours before the game, not to mention having to share locker rooms, etc., and the logistics of trying to organize all that, plus press and broadcast teams...

you can't snap your fingers and make something like a mlb game happen.

and what if the game goes extra innings, msn? hell, the astros and cubs played an 11-inning, 4:17 game just 13 days ago.

it's not viable, msn, to schedule two different games, involving four different teams, on the same day in the same stadium.

come on......
Monday, September 25, 2000. That's the day when the Cleveland Indians hosted both the Chicago White Sox and the Minnesota Twins in a double-header in order to fit the games in before the season ended (Cleveland finished the season 5 games back of Chicago in the Central Division).

MLB managed to make that work, so there's no reason to believe Tampa should have been ruled out. Milwaukee should have been the LAST place to play (besides Wrigley and U.S. Cellular).

In my opinion the only way for MLB to save face is to donate a a BIG check to relief efforts (preferrably from Allan Huber Selig's pocket).

[msn]

are you under the impression players show up at 6:55 for a 7:05 game? they usually take the field some 1-3 hours before the game, not to mention having to share locker rooms, etc., and the logistics of trying to organize all that, plus press and broadcast teams...

you can't snap your fingers and make something like a mlb game happen.
....unless it's in Milwaukee. Play one game at 11:05, the other at 8:05. It's not that hard.

and what if the game goes extra innings, msn?
What if the game doesn't? Extra inning contests have broken play and resumed on other days before; there is precedent.

it's not viable, msn, to schedule two different games, involving four different teams, on the same day in the same stadium.
It's not *easy*. It's certainly "viable". It's not like Florida and Tampa have tens of thousands of rancourous fans breaking down the doors to attend, either.

and do you REALLY think playing in front of 20K cub fans is what did the astros in? they're freaking 5-4 this year at wrigley, foer heaven's sake.

i'm guessing - wildly, i'm sure - that riding out ike was a slightly bigger factor.
Sure Ike was the bigger factor. If you think playing in front of 20K booing cubs fans was a non-factor, then I don't know what to do for you.

it is, from a striclty baseball perspective, a crappy situation no matter how you try to slice it.
Agreed! A crappy situation made far crappier by a lazy commissioner who sought the easiest way out. There is no excuse.

If the astros had won these two games in Milwaukee, msn and company wouldn't be complaining about a thing....
Welcome back jgreen! I wasn't around here much before today, but I was complaining about it in advance. I've also already conceded that the Astros may well have been swept even if all three games were in Houston sans Ike. The point is not that they lost "home games" because of the "away" locale--the point is that we'll never know. Where were you during the 14-1 stretch? Please go back there.

Monday, September 25, 2000.
Precedent! Obviously the scope is much bigger, but NCAA baseball does this all the time.

[msn]

“He explained his situation and where he came from and the thing he had to do, and it makes a little more sense when you think about it, but I’m still not happy with it,” said Cooper, who played his final 11 years in Milwaukee, when Selig owned the team. “He wasn’t real happy because he’s getting a lot of heat from a lot of different places.Understandably so, I think he even expected that. I’m sure all this is frustrating for him.” link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AmraPhq72Yy5QHRxEF2vsqgRvLYF?gid=280915118&prov=ap)
Well he should be getting a lot of heat.

I'm with Coop--perhaps hearing Selig explain himself in person would help it make "a little" more sense, but we don't have to be happy with it.

[msn]

I'm doing more reading on this, and those who are pointing fingers at McLane have a legitimate beef. I think he could have handled this differently. I'm with the ESPN writer, however, who doesn't think McLane's tomfoolery absolves MLB of its own.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=22528

Piniella: "these ballgames were secondary in nature." (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/42F0D5BD306A2288862574C5006085F7?OpenDocument) Up yours, Lou. "We had no significant advantage. It was inconvenient for us." Really? Two days off, and an hour-and-a-half drive as opposed to a flight to Houston? You poor, poor, inconvenienced lovable loser.

[Oski2005]

Does anybody have Insider? I want to read the Olney article about the Astros and Ike.

[rpr52121]

Cubs
Friday night: get a good night's rest after the latest meltdown. Your suckball POS team is 3-7 in its last ten, and you're facing a tough road trip in Houston this Sunday.
Saturday: enjoy your complimentary day off. You find out you won't have to go to Houston, after all
Sunday: get up around 11am after another good night's rest; drive an hour and a half to Milwaukee, where 26,000 screaming Cub fans await you on this "road" game.


Actually, didn't Illinois just declare a state of emergency in Chicago because of flooding?

[magnetik]

Does anybody have Insider? I want to read the Olney article about the Astros and Ike.

I have it.. send the link over.. I didn't see it.

[jgreen91]

From what they were saying on 610, Drayton is the one to blame here folks

[DOMINATOR]

I have it.. send the link over.. I didn't see it.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3588460&name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d3588460%26name%3dolney_buster

[magnetik]

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3588460&name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d3588460%26name%3dolney_buster

here ya go..


More pressure at home for Brocail, Astros

Monday, September 15, 2008 | Feedback | Print Entry

The Astros' caravan was diverted from its usual route to the airport Sunday morning, to avoid flooded areas. And along the way the players showed each other pictures of the damage they had in their own communities, swapping stories about how they coped with Hurricane Ike. Doug Brocail had been up overnight into early Saturday morning, listening to the winds, fearing what might happen to his house, worrying about how he would protect his wife and five daughters, and their three dogs and five cats, if the building began breaking apart.


"The wind, that was impressive," Brocail said, pausing reflectively. "Impressive … scary."

The worst winds came through Brocail's neighborhood, he felt, sometime between 3:45 and 5:30 a.m. "The winds were blowing so hard, and it does sound like a train, like you hear all the time," he said. "A gust would hit, and it would sound like a train, and I'd be wondering, which room are we going to get to? Which closet are we going to get to? Are we going to protect our children?"

FANTASY
ON THE RISE
• David Price, Rays: He made his debut and was extremely impressive, throwing his slider for strikes early in the count and finishing off hitters with a fastball that reached the mid-90s.
ON THE DECLINE
• Scott Downs, Jays: He's had one of the most underrated seasons in the majors, but now his year may be over.
See ESPN's Fantasy Baseball page


Lisa and Doug Brocail debated, in the days before the storm, what was the best thing for the family to do, and ultimately, the decision was made to stay. "From now on," Brocail said, "there's not going to be any debate. There's not going to be any argument."


After the worst of the storm passed and the day broke, Brocail went outside to assess the damage. "Thank God I boarded up," said Brocail. "Whoever invented hurricane clips is a genius."

What Brocail found, as he walked around, is that others in his neighborhood were emerging from their houses, all of them checking on each other, helping those who needed help. When Brocail boarded the team bus Sunday morning, what was most unsettling for him was not that the Astros would play a theoretical home game in Milwaukee on Sunday night, in front of thousands of Cubs' fans, but that he had to leave his family and neighbors at a time when they are working to emerge from the storm damage.

Brocail's home contains a generator, so they have power -- which is fortunate, because Brocail was told Sunday morning that three weeks may pass before electricity is restored in his neighborhood. He boarded the plane concerned about whether the generator will operate properly, and he is unsure how he could reach his family to talk, as the Astros begin a week on the road; the Brocails' cell phone service in the area where they live is so spotty that they cannot dial out, cannot receive calls, and cannot send text messages. (They can only receive text messages, Brocail said, "so I got all these texts from people wondering if I was OK, and I couldn't answer them.")

About four hours after Brocail spoke, the Astros were no-hit by Carlos Zambrano, and they have another game in Miller Park tonight. The Astros were baseball's hottest team before their season was interrupted Friday. But please understand that they feel as if the worst is behind them. "I don't have any pressure on the field," Brocail said.

The real pressure is on those left behind in Texas.

[GuerillaBlack]

And if that wasn't bad enough, the Astros used the visitor's locker rooms.

[AGBee]

Baseball = fail. Glad I don't waste my time on it :)

[Boomhauer]

And if that wasn't bad enough, the Astros used the visitor's locker rooms.


Salt in the wounds........

[ind0fo0]

And if that wasn't bad enough, the Astros used the visitor's locker rooms.

wow- where'd you hear that? i would be extremely surprised... and pissed.

that would be the very last straw for me.

[Scientific1]

And if that wasn't bad enough, the Astros used the visitor's locker rooms.


They chose to do that, It their way of making a statement making it clear it wasn't by nay means a home game. They also wore their away jerseys if anyone noticed.

[msn]

They chose to do that, It their way of making a statement making it clear it wasn't by nay means a home game. They also wore their away jerseys if anyone noticed.
That proved nothing. As much as I hate Selig's poor and gutless decision making here, the Astros proved nothing at all in doing this.

[rrj_gamz]

Doug Brocail was on Baseball tonight...He made some valid points and I still dont' understand the rush to play the games...Professional or not, everyone is human and given the devestation, common sense should have prevailed...

[Ric]

....unless it's in Milwaukee. Play one game at 11:05, the other at 8:05. It's not that hard.
except the game was scheduled for 7:05 not 8:05 - you can’t start rocking everyone’s boat, msn.

and i doubt they snapped their fingers; milwaukee (unfortunately) fit predetermined, reasonable conditions: it was open both days and had a dome.

What if the game doesn't? Extra inning contests have broken play and resumed on other days before; there is precedent.
what day, msn? the astros have one remaining off-day… and the cubs are playing the mets that day.

and again, postponing the game – especially in progress – creates a host of other just as complicated issues, namely the cubs having to resume a game that was started BEFORE they clinched the division and home field advantage.

It's not *easy*. It's certainly "viable". It's not like Florida and Tampa have tens of thousands of rancourous fans breaking down the doors to attend, either.
it has nothing to do with the fans, msn.

Sure Ike was the bigger factor. If you think playing in front of 20K booing cubs fans was a non-factor, then I don't know what to do for you.
sorry, msn – it was a non-factor.

i rode out the hurricane; i spent a hot, sleepless night with no power or connection to the outside world; i used 25 yard bags to clean just my front yard; i took in the devastation to my friends’ and family’s homes… and i can’t imagine having to go ANYWHERE to do ANYTHING, let alone play a baseball game at that point.

my only guess, if you think milwaukee had any impact on the results, is that you don’t live in houston and didn’t go through it yourself, or you didn’t see either game and don’t realize how thoroughly apathetic the astros looked. i think we could have gotten a team together and beaten them at carlos lee’s ranch…. it wasn’t pretty, and understandably so.

Agreed! A crappy situation made far crappier by a lazy commissioner who sought the easiest way out. There is no excuse.
msn, i think you’re a genuinely smart, level-headed poster. and if someone – ANYONE – jumped up and down and screamed the same argument over and over again without considering anything other than their own emotional reaction… i’m certain you’d be among the leaders calling them out.

the entire situation sucked; for me the, “the situation” is the category 3 hurricane blowing through our city; not having to travel somewhere and play a game. ike trumps every other piece of this.

unfortunately, MLB can’t suspend its season; they can’t bend over backwards to accommodate one team. they have millions and millions of dollars invested in their schedule and it’s not something that’s easily amendable. everyone involved was up against it. it wasn’t a preferred solution, but i’m just not seeing viable alternatives, especially with mclane (reportedly) smack dab in the middle of all this, mucking up the muckety muck.

and you know what? i don’t necessarily blame drayton, either. those were 3 guaranteed sell-outs he lost – that’s a lot of revenue, not to mention his suddenly contending team was losing three valuable home games against it's stiffest competition down the stretch.

if the rangers played in a dome and were out of town sunday and monday, and selig still picked milwaukee, i think you’d be justified in your outrage, and i’d be right there with you, brutha. but there wasn’t a better, more viable option – there just wasn’t; especially if, as has been reported, drayton hand-cuffed everyone until they were all up against it.

Precedent!
it’s not a precedent; reread it. one team hosted two other teams in their home park. the twins were already scheduled to play in cleveland that day, and they squeezed in the white sox, who had just finished a series in – yep, minnesota, making travel arrangements much easier. that’s not the same thing as a four-team doubleheader with three of the teams coming from three different parts of the country.

i can’t find any evidence of a four-team doubleheader ever being held in the history of major league baseball.

[Landlord Landry]

That proved nothing. As much as I hate Selig's poor and gutless decision making here, the Astros proved nothing at all in doing this.

what did you want them to do? bat first? forefit?

I agree that it was a sh!tbag deal selig handed them.

I also read that they did that becaue it was what they were used to when on the road, nothin to do with 'rebelling'

[msn]

what did you want them to do? bat first? forefit?
I don't mean to say what they did was terrible or something, just that it accomplished nothing... except for:
I also read that they did that becaue it was what they were used to when on the road
...now that makes sense. Thanks.

[Refman]

on the backend of riding out a hurricane? they do that all the time?... really?....

so you've been up 24, 36, 48 straight hours with no power.
You just made the case why playing these games right now was a deplorable decision.

The last time a disaster impacted games that mattered with potential playoff teams, the Yankees games were played at the end of the season. They could have done it again...they simply chose not to.

[Ric]

Doug Brocail was on Baseball tonight...He made some valid points and I still dont' understand the rush to play the games...Professional or not, everyone is human and given the devestation, common sense should have prevailed...
there're two apsects to this - the human one and the baseball one.

brocail's right... from a human perspective - the astro players deserved a chance to recover, be with their families, etc. but within just the baseball universe - what were the alternatives? the astros and cubs shared one off-day down the stretch: monday. and then they're both off the day after the season ends.

but asking the cubs - who are going to win their division and homefield advantage throughout the playoffs - to play 1, maybe even 2, perhaps 3 meaningful games AFTER the season - when their rotation is set, their line-up is healthy - is just as complicated as trying to find a place to play the games this past weekend.

baseball doesn't have a built-in contigency plan for something like this: the schedule is set MONTHS in advance. it's just an all-around lose-lose situation and selig tried to minimize the impact to the game - which is his first and really only priority.

i don't like it, but i just don't see how it could have been avoided... unless the astros had left town ahead of the storm. but even that's not perfect.

[Landlord Landry]

it has nothing to do with the fans, msn.


it has everything to do with the fans.


unfortunately, MLB can’t suspend its season; they can’t bend over backwards to accommodate one team. they have millions and millions of dollars invested in their schedule and it’s not something that’s easily amendable. everyone involved was up against it. it wasn’t a preferred solution, but i’m just not seeing viable alternatives, especially with mclane (reportedly) smack dab in the middle of all this, mucking up the muckety muck.



signed the 2005 New Orleans Saints and New Orleans Hornets

[Stone Cold Hakeem]

**** Selig. it looks like we are probably going to get 1 or 2 hits for the whole series. Yeah.. neutral my ass. I hope there is a blizzard soon in Chicago so they can play at a "neutral" site like STL.

Yo, yo, yo...I hate this as much as you do, but I have to live here so please....please....please do not wish for blizzards...

[Ric]

The last time a disaster impacted games that mattered with potential playoff teams, the Yankees games were played at the end of the season. They could have done it again...they simply chose not to.
i assume you're referring to 9/11?... the entire league suspended play; the entire MLB schedule was extended. there were no special concessions for the yankees (or mets).

[Ric]

it has everything to do with the fans.
what fans?! do you honestly think selig's intention was to grant the cubs two extra home games?.... that's silly.

he did not make these arrangements to placate fans; he did it to minimize the logistical nightmare this scenario unfortunately created.

signed the 2005 New Orleans Saints and New Orleans Hornetsargh! katrina happened in august during the preseason; it didn't impact the regular season at all - no games were rescheduled (other than their locations, and that wasn't handled well, either if you'll recall).

the hornets temporarily relocated; otherwise, again, there was no impact on the regular season schedule.

[Landlord Landry]

I don't mean to say what they did was terrible or something, just that it accomplished nothing... except for:



I agree with you that it accoplished nothin, and they really didn't have many options to make a statement except bash in the Cubs brains, but how could they?

the Cubs kicked the Astros when they were down. Congras Zambrano and Lilly for owning the weakest no-hitter and one hitter in the history of the game.

another reason I will forever hate the Cubs, their fans and specifically Zambrano and Soriano..........Did anyone else notice that their was only one sign in the crowds about concern for Houston?(and I am pretty sure it was an Astros fan) not one poster or sign from the cubs fans saying 'thoughts and prayers' 'get well soon' etc.......one idiot fan even had the nerve to hold up a poster with this.....

"we are on a mission from God'

Zambrano never once made a mention of the Astros players, the city of Houston, or the aftermath of the hurricane. It was all 'me, me, me, I, I, I' in his post game interview.

and Soriano, dude still has the nerve to showboat a homerun. Dude, could at least have the class to swallow his pride for one homerun. Nobody was showing him up when he made a bone-headed play on that foul ball.

[msn]

the entire situation sucked; for me the, “the situation” is the category 3 hurricane blowing through our city; not having to travel somewhere and play a game. ike trumps every other piece of this.
Ric, you make a sound argument. I disagree. I'm sorry. That does not mean I'm "jumping up and down screaming and considering nothing beyond my own emotional reaction." Please do not presume that Ike did not affect me or my loved ones.

Ultimately, baseball just doesn't matter. I *still* think Selig was *wrong*, but watching (again) footage from the Bolivar and the island last night, I just don't care anymore.

Good luck to you, and the rest of us in our great city, in rebuilding.

[Landlord Landry]

what fans?! do you honestly think selig's intention was to grant the cubs two extra home games?.... that's silly.


what is so silly about it? he DID give them 2 extra home games.

putting this game in ATL or FLA does nothing for MLB. what were they hoping for? 7,500-10k fans? Fla, barely brings that for their own team.

no, lets put the game one hour from Chicago, we should get about 25k-30k fans. and they did. it was purley a business decision the benefited just about everyone except the Houston Astros.

and I wouldn't put it past Selig to do everything he could to get the Cubs to the WS. I'm sure a Boston/Chicago WS would make Selig cream his pants.

we all know Selig puts his own best interests before the game and the integrity of it.

[Major]

it's just an all-around lose-lose situation and selig tried to minimize the impact to the game - which is his first and really only priority.


I think this is the key part of all of this. If you come at it from the perspective that Selig's job should have been to minimize the impact on the Astros, the argument that Selig should have gone to some other more disruptive solutions makes sense. But if you look at it purely as "minimize the impact to the baseball season as a whole", this does seem like the easiest and most reasonable solution, unfortunately.

[DaDakota]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why these games were not delayed until the end of the season?

What was the hurry to play them? They might not have even been necessary.

To me......that is the best solution.

DD

[msn]

I think this is the key part of all of this. If you come at it from the perspective that Selig's job should have been to minimize the impact on the Astros, the argument that Selig should have gone to some other more disruptive solutions makes sense. But if you look at it purely as "minimize the impact to the baseball season as a whole", this does seem like the easiest and most reasonable solution, unfortunately.
Playing the games after the season? So the Cubs can't set up their rotation just perfect for their destiny run? Waaaa. The Astros can't go home to power and water.

[bobrek]

I think this is the key part of all of this. If you come at it from the perspective that Selig's job should have been to minimize the impact on the Astros, the argument that Selig should have gone to some other more disruptive solutions makes sense. But if you look at it purely as "minimize the impact to the baseball season as a whole", this does seem like the easiest and most reasonable solution, unfortunately.

I am curious as to the monetary issues with respect to this. One of the Chicago sportswriters had a good idea prior to any of this happening where he wrote something like:

A. MLB should dip into its coffers and give the Astros any lost revenue for this series.

B. Take all ticket money generated in Milwaukee and have the Astros, Cubs and MLB match it for hurricane relief.

[Refman]

I think this is the key part of all of this. If you come at it from the perspective that Selig's job should have been to minimize the impact on the Astros, the argument that Selig should have gone to some other more disruptive solutions makes sense. But if you look at it purely as "minimize the impact to the baseball season as a whole", this does seem like the easiest and most reasonable solution, unfortunately.
So the reasonable solution is to take a team that is fighting for a playoff spot, make them leave home after a few days of almost no sleep, and expect them to play two games while they are worried about their homes, families, and community.

That makes sense. Sheesh.

[bobrek]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why these games were not delayed until the end of the season?

What was the hurry to play them? They might not have even been necessary.

To me......that is the best solution.

DD

Imagine if your favorite team has to play 3 games after the season (assume DH on the 29th and single game on the 30th). They are in a pennant race so they have to use their best pitchers (or normal rotation) for the 3 games. Imagine your team makes the playoffs and has to open with Dave Mlicki starting against Johan Santana. Imagine that you can look back and say, "you know, MLB could have scheduled these 2 teams to play (at the very least) a DH on Monday the 15th, so they would only have to play a single game on the 29th (if necessary).

[DaDakota]

Imagine if your favorite team has to play 3 games after the season (assume DH on the 29th and single game on the 30th). They are in a pennant race so they have to use their best pitchers (or normal rotation) for the 3 games. Imagine your team makes the playoffs and has to open with Dave Mlicki starting against Johan Santana. Imagine that you can look back and say, "you know, MLB could have scheduled these 2 teams to play (at the very least) a DH on Monday the 15th, so they would only have to play a single game on the 29th (if necessary).

But the chances are that the Cubs would have already clinched, and therefore would NOT be using their top line pitching prospects.

I think there was no rush to play these games, and the players clearly were not ready.

Forcing a team to play when Ike just barrelled through their neighborhoods is callous, and Drayton and MLB should be ashamed of themselves for making it happen.

Not to mention, MLB could delay the start of the NL by a day or two to help compensate....there were other options.

DD

[bobrek]

But the chances are that the Cubs would have already clinched, and therefore would NOT be using their top line pitching prospects.

I think there was no rush to play these games, and the players clearly were not ready.

Forcing a team to play when Ike just barrelled through their neighborhoods is callous, and Drayton and MLB should be ashamed of themselves for making it happen.

DD

So by this response to my reply, I assume the Cubs are your favorite team? :) Granted the Cubs probably will have clinched by season's end, but the Astros' would still be in the hunt.

My solution - schedule an early DH on Monday the 15th (perhaps start at 10:00 AM) and go from there. At that point, if it had to be in Milwaukee, so be it. It would be tough to schedule it on the west coast because of the Astros then having to travel to Florida for a Tuesday game.

[SWTsig]

But they lost and that can't be ignored. The situation was stacked against the 'stros and you know it. I guess noone should ever complain about anything.

no sh!t... there were other ways around this situation. to come in here and tell us that traveling and then playing in milwaukee in the same day in front of nothing but cubs fans was the only option is a joke. houston gets hit with a hurricane and yet it's the cubs who got accommodated.

complete bullsh!t.

[Cannonball]

I would've rather them played the games in Round Rock.

[updawg]

I would've rather them played the games in Round Rock.
thats what I was thinking as well.

[Austin70]

Check out what Ahole Ramirez said.

link (http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080915&content_id=3480176&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou)




Cubs third baseman Aramis Ramirez was less than sympathetic.

"If they cry about it, that's the wrong thing to do because you've still got to play the game," he said. "You've got to go out there and try to win ballgames. It doesn't matter where you play or what situation you're in. We're on the road, too. Even though we had a lot of Cubs fans, we weren't playing at Wrigley Field

[Ric]

putting this game in ATL or FLA does nothing for MLB. what were they hoping for? 7,500-10k fans? Fla, barely brings that for their own team.
florida hosted a home game sunday; it wasn't viable. atlanta had rain forecasted: you can't uproot two teams and ask them to go to a neutral site that might be impacted by the weather.

and I wouldn't put it past Selig to do everything he could to get the Cubs to the WS. I'm sure a Boston/Chicago WS would make Selig cream his pants.
this has NOTHING to do with the cubs; they're going to win their division and clinch home field throughout the playoffs REGARDLESS. hell, selig could have simply canceled the games, given houston the three wins as a bonus for having to endure ike, and the cubs STILL would have won the division and home field.

this didn't in any way benefit the cubs.

[Landlord Landry]

this didn't in any way benefit the cubs.

you are delusional.

[msn]

this didn't in any way benefit the cubs.
I get your point but driving an hour versus flying to Houston has to count for something. Playing in front of a home crowd versus playing in Houston has to count for something. They, at the very least, benefitted experientially. All that may count is the win column, but I guarantee you the two days off and the short two-day roadie were far more refreshing than a three-game series at Minute Maid would have been.

[Surfguy]

The only thing I learned is Cubs fans are a bunch of jerk-offs. I hope they get hit by a natural disaster, have to move their games elsewhere, and then show up to play where the crowd is extra hostile to them. Glad to say, Astros fans have a little more class than that.

[updawg]

ric must think these were supposed to be cubs home games

[Ric]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why these games were not delayed until the end of the season?
there’s one day off between the end of the regular season and the start of the postseason – how do you propose they squeeze those three games in, knowing they could completely wreak havoc with the postseason schedule?

and the landscape changes dramatically; by season’s end, the cubs have won their division, set their rotation and gotten everyone healthy… which is a bonus for having the best record in the league.

so you’re going to make them play three games BEFORE the postseason and possibly ruin all that earned preparation? and how should the cubs approach those games? go for broke to win them and possibly wear out your pitchers and bullpen? or play a bunch of second and third stringers and ruin the integrity of the situation?

[Major]

Playing the games after the season? So the Cubs can't set up their rotation just perfect for their destiny run? Waaaa. The Astros can't go home to power and water.

You can't delay the entire playoffs for 3 days to play the games. First off, you screw up the entire MLB schedule system. It's only happened once, I believe - that was for 9/11 and the entire shutdown of baseball for a week. Beyond that, the Cubs have no reason to play the games - they might as well just forfeit. Is that fair to Philly and Milwaukee? What if the Astros were to clinch with one win - do they not play the other two? Is the entire MLB playoff schedule up in the air until these games get resolved? Then, after that, what if you end up with a 2 or 3 way tie AFTER the 3-day delay for these games? Now you have a Philly-Milwaukee-Houston wild-card playoff to deal with. Meanwhile, the other six teams in the playoffs has been off for a week, which entirely messes up the rhythm of the playoffs and the teams.

Playing all the games after the season would have been a non-starter for MLB - it would have been the absolute last resort option if nothing else was possible. It makes no sense - unless your only goal is to what's best for the Astros and not MLB as a whole.

[Ric]

Playing the games after the season? So the Cubs can't set up their rotation just perfect for their destiny run? Waaaa. The Astros can't go home to power and water.
you can't let the human reaction to this seep into the baseball universe. from a strictly baseball perspective, that IS a big deal; a game-changer. and if the astros were in similiar circumstances, we'd all be bemoaning the situation.

[Ric]

I get your point but driving an hour versus flying to Houston has to count for something. Playing in front of a home crowd versus playing in Houston has to count for something. They, at the very least, benefitted experientially. All that may count is the win column, but I guarantee you the two days off and the short two-day roadie were far more refreshing than a three-game series at Minute Maid would have been.
it benefited the cubs, sure - for those games. but it's not like they were must-wins for them, which was LL's implication; that this was done to somehow assure a cubs/red sox world series, which is patently ridiculous.

[Major]

So the reasonable solution is to take a team that is fighting for a playoff spot, make them leave home after a few days of almost no sleep, and expect them to play two games while they are worried about their homes, families, and community.

That makes sense. Sheesh.

Yeah, pretty much - unless you can come up with a better solution that doesn't screw up the season for a bunch of other teams. The Saints, shortly after Katrina, played their home season opener in New York - against the New York Giants. It happens. The league's primary goal in that situation is to minimize spreading the problem across the league.

[Ric]

ric must think these were supposed to be cubs home games
read the entire thread, please. i don't like the situation *at all*, but no one - not a single soul in this thread - has provided even a remotely viable alternative... and that's because there isn't one.

so bitching up a storm about it is pointless, especially considering the astros are still only 2.5 back with the brewers and now mets possibly faltering....... everyone is acting like this cost us a shot at the postseason; it's a temporary setback.

[SWTsig]

obviously ric is a selig and mlb apologist... silly us for wanting the league to at least attempt at giving the stros a fair shot in all this, but according to Ric, that's just too much to ask for.

:rolleyes:

[Ric]

So the reasonable solution is to take a team that is fighting for a playoff spot, make them leave home after a few days of almost no sleep, and expect them to play two games while they are worried about their homes, families, and community.
refman, you and everyone else are free to come up with a better plan. but other than ideas that favor the astros exclusively, you (collectively) haven't been able to do so.

and that's because none exist. it's just a bad situation all around.

[Groogrux]

I haven't heard a rational explanation for why Tampa wasn't considered for a DH on Sunday. Or one on Sunday and a 11:05 start on Monday.

[Ric]

obviously ric is a selig and mlb apologist... silly us for wanting the league to at least attempt at giving the stros a fair shot in all this, but according to Ric, that's just too much to ask for.
offer is extended to you, as well, SWTsig - what's a better alternative that doesn't compromise the MLB season and was actually viable?.....

i've said this repeatedly: i hate what happened. hate, Hate, HATE it; i feel terrible for the players and was very nearly literally sick watching the coverage on ESPN. sick.

but i've yet to see a better alternative, ESPECIALLY if, as has been reported, drayton mclane was being a fly in the oinment and making the situation worse...

[SWTsig]

refman, you and everyone else are free to come up with a better plan. but other than ideas that favor the astros exclusively, you (collectively) haven't been able to do so.

and that's because none exist. it's just a bad situation all around.

see, the options dont have to "Favor the astros exclusively," they just have to NOT favor the cubs AND the brewers.

[Landlord Landry]

refman, you and everyone else are free to come up with a better plan. but untill you do, quit bitching because it's pointless



thats what you meant to say, right?

[Ric]

I haven't heard a rational explanation for why Tampa wasn't considered for a DH on Sunday. Or one on Sunday and a 11:05 start on Monday.
several, and i've posted them - how would you propose a DH on sunday considering the astros arrived in milwaukee - closer to houston than tampa - at close to 2 in the afternoon? and they lose an hour traveling east, remember.

here's the account from footer: The Astros took off close to noon CT and arrived to Milwaukee -- where they were met with yet more rain -- just before 2 p.m. By a little after 4, everyone was assembled in the clubhouse at Miller Park ready for their 7 p.m. start time with the Cubs.

so you're proposing a 6pm-ish start (at the EARLIEST)... for a DH, and then an 11:05 start the next morning, huh? and you think that would have been a better alternative for a tired team?...

as for monday, tampa bay was hosting a game monday night. you can't start rocking boats like that. the astros and cubs - these very same teams - played a 4-hour, 17-minute, 11-inning game just 13 days ago. you can't possibly jeopardize other games, ESPECIALLY games that matter, such as rays/red sox.

[Major]

I haven't heard a rational explanation for why Tampa wasn't considered for a DH on Sunday. Or one on Sunday and a 11:05 start on Monday.

For a Sunday DH, you have the same problem people are complaining about here - except even worse. People didn't like the idea that the Astros had to travel Sunday morning and play Sunday evening while worried about their family, etc, etc. Two games Sunday would be even worse.

A Monday game in the same place as another game is just a potential logistics nightmare. What if the game runs long? Do you delay the other game? Again, if the focus is to minimize the disruption to baseball as a whole, why go this route if you can play in a ballpark with no conflicts of that sort? The only argument for this is if the goal is to minimize the disruption to the Astros specifically. That might be the goal for people here, but I don't think it was ever MLB's goal.

[Ric]

see, the options dont have to "Favor the astros exclusively," they just have to NOT favor the cubs AND the brewers.
ANY situation would have favored the cubs and brewers if the astros are playing less than 48 hours after a hurricane roared through their hometown.

there is NO situation that would have leveled that playing field, other than postponing the games - but that simply wasn't viable.

[DaDakota]

If the Cubs have clinched the integrity of any season ending series is nullified...in ANY series.

To me I think this is a cluster screw...of...Drayton not wanting to lose a pay day, and Bud not being patient enough for the Astros players and their families.

Ric,

They could ALWAYS delay the start of the playoffs, or push back one series a few days to even it out....by removing off days in the middle of the series etc. to catch up.

And it is not an alternative to play the games at Dell Diamond in RR? We had ZERO rain here.

DD

[Groogrux]

For a Sunday DH, you have the same problem people are complaining about here - except even worse. People didn't like the idea that the Astros had to travel Sunday morning and play Sunday evening while worried about their family, etc, etc. Two games Sunday would be even worse.

A Monday game in the same place as another game is just a potential logistics nightmare. What if the game runs long? Do you delay the other game? Again, if the focus is to minimize the disruption to baseball as a whole, why go this route if you can play in a ballpark with no conflicts of that sort? The only argument for this is if the goal is to minimize the disruption to the Astros specifically. That might be the goal for people here, but I don't think it was ever MLB's goal.

Ok, they play at the same time Sunday night (shorter flight to Tampa as well by 20 minutes, net loss 40 minutes) and play an hour earlier on Monday. Considering the chances of that game taking more than four hours to play are slim and none, if they finished the game by 4:00, they could've easily been done and vacated the building for the other teams. If you have to delay the start in Tampa 30 minutes to an hour, so be it, it's not like games have never been delayed before.

Instead, you give the Cubs two virtual home games and make the Astros fly more than twice the amount than they would have had they played in Tampa (Houston to Milwaukee, Milwaukee to Miami...3-plus hour flight).

They may have inconvenienced the Rays a little, but it is not something that would've been inconceivable and you would've made things much more fair for the team who had to suffer the most out of everyone.

[Groogrux]

ANY situation would have favored the cubs and brewers if the astros are playing less than 48 hours after a hurricane roared through their hometown.

there is NO situation that would have leveled that playing field, other than postponing the games - but that simply wasn't viable.

Of course any situation was going to favor the Cubs/Brewers, but they could've picked one that didn't favor them more than other viable alternatives.

[DaDakota]

WTF is wrong with waiting for the town of Houston to get back on it's feet a bit?

What happened in this country where playing baseball games is more important than helping out the people in Houston in trouble.

If Bud had Balls, he would have suspended all games for a week, resumed the schedule the next week, and had the missed week made up at the end.

I mean for crying out loud, it is a natural disaster, baseball...as much as I like it, is still just a game.

DD

[Ric]

If the Cubs have clinched the integrity of any season ending series is nullified...in ANY series.
not if the astros, phillies and/or brewers haven't clinched yet.....

Bud not being patient enough for the Astros players and their families.
you can't let the human element become a part of this; we're dealing with this strictly from a baseball perspective. he can't disrupt the season for one team.

They could ALWAYS delay the start of the playoffs, or push back one series a few days to even it out....by removing off days in the middle of the series etc. to catch up.
not even remotely viable; i can't believe you honestly think it is. there are millions and millions and millions of dollars tied into the playoff schedule - networks have built their entire fall seasons around them. you can't disrupt that, nor can you ask other teams to compromise their postseason to accomodate a team that may not even be in it.

would you be OK forfeiting travel days for the astros to give anaheim time to make-up games canceled by an earthquake?...

And it is not an alternative to play the games at Dell Diamond in RR? We had ZERO rain here.
i wouldn't have had a problem with it, but the ruling was it wasn't a major league stadium and that could compromise the games.

[Groogrux]

WTF is wrong with waiting for the town of Houston to get back on it's feet a bit?

What happened in this country where playing baseball games is more important than helping out the people in Houston in trouble.

If Bud had Balls, he would have suspended all games for a week, resumed the schedule the next week, and had the missed week made up at the end.

I mean for crying out loud, it is a natural disaster, baseball...as much as I like it, is still just a game.

DD

Or how about playing the game in Houston in front of no fans and the MLB donating money to the Astros to make up for the loss at the gate? Nah, let's pick the worst possible scenario for the team who had to go through all that. It's like they think the Astros just sat around with their thumbs up their asses for a couple days instead of a major disaster happening in the community.

[Landlord Landry]

WTF is wrong with waiting for the town of Houston to get back on it's feet a bit?

What happened in this country where playing baseball games is more important than helping out the people in Houston in trouble.

If Bud had Balls, he would have suspended all games for a week, resumed the schedule the next week, and had the missed week made up at the end.

I mean for crying out loud, it is a natural disaster, baseball...as much as I like it, is still just a game.

DD

sadly it's also a multi billion dollar a year business, and Bud has proven to fans, that he cares more about the dollar then the integrity of his game.

he's a douchebag of the very essence. This ordeal was mishandled horribly. Ric and others have brought up good and valid points that defend the piss poor decision, and thats fine. I see where they are coming from, but that doesn't mean Astros fans don't have a right to bitch about being sh!t on, because we were.

[Ric]

If Bud had Balls, he would have suspended all games for a week, resumed the schedule the next week, and had the missed week made up at the end.
i would have appaluded the move, but can't imagine asking 29 other teams to compromise their seasons for one team.

[leroy420]

read the entire thread, please. i don't like the situation *at all*, but no one - not a single soul in this thread - has provided even a remotely viable alternative... and that's because there isn't one.

so bitching up a storm about it is pointless, especially considering the astros are still only 2.5 back with the brewers and now mets possibly faltering....... everyone is acting like this cost us a shot at the postseason; it's a temporary setback.

Why wasn't Round Rock viable? Close to home so the players didn't have to be too far from family. Holds more than the Rays, Nationals, Marlins draw on any given night (13,000 plus). Could give away tickets to evacuees. Home field feeling.

[updawg]

Why wasn't Round Rock viable? Close to home so the players didn't have to be too far from family. Holds more than the Rays, Nationals, Marlins draw on any given night (13,000 plus). Could give away tickets to evacuees. Home field feeling.
probably because the cubs didn't want that

[Ric]

Or how about playing the game in Houston in front of no fans and the MLB donating money to the Astros to make up for the loss at the gate?
and where would the cubs have stayed and who would have been around to run said hotel, RM95? downtown was deemed unsafe, and thus closed, until today. so asking a handful of houstonians to leave their families, jeopardize their safety so they could come tend to a baseball team is your plan?... really?

It's like they think the Astros just sat around with their thumbs up their asses for a couple days instead of a major disaster happening in the community.
actually, if you've read the reports, that's exactly the implication being leveled at mclane.

he SHOULD have moved his players and their familes to RR friday a.m. and waited to see what happened. that would have made a friday-sunday series at a neutral, unoccupied stadium completely viable.

but by every account, even (if you read between the lines) selig's, mclane held out hope past the point of delusion that the games could be played in houston. and thus put everyone's backs against the wall.

[Refman]

there is NO situation that would have leveled that playing field, other than postponing the games - but that simply wasn't viable.
Riiiiight. I do not buy that. They could have postponed the games by a day and played a DH on Sunday in Milwaukee. That would have at least been a little better.

That is, of course, assuming that one buys the argument that postponing the games was not viable. I do not buy that. Schedule changes can be made. What about all the games that get rained out and rescheduled at the end of the season if needed?

[Groogrux]

and where would the cubs have stayed and who would have been around to run said hotel, RM95? downtown was deemed unsafe, and thus closed, until today. so asking a handful of houstonians to leave their families, jeopardize their safety so they could come tend to a baseball team is your plan?... really?

Fair point.


actually, if you've read the reports, that's exactly the implication being leveled at mclane.

he SHOULD have moved his players and their familes to RR friday a.m. and waited to see what happened. that would have made a friday-sunday series at a neutral, unoccupied stadium completely viable.

but by every account, even (if you read between the lines) selig's, mclane held out hope past the point of delusion that the games could be played in houston. and thus put everyone's backs against the wall.

So it's on McLane's shoulders to make sure that all Astros employees have situated their houses and families in that short period of time? Anything McLane did to agree to the game being held in Milwaukee is on his shoulders, but you can't blame him for not getting the players/staff out of Houston in a timely manner.

None of this changes the fact that they easily could've played in Tampa and only inconvenienced the Rays a tiny little bit, if at all and made the whole thing seem a little bit fairer. Instead, two home games for the Astros turned into two home games for the Cubs.

[Ric]

Riiiiight. I do not buy that. They could have postponed the games by a day and played a DH on Sunday in Milwaukee. That would have at least been a little better.
what?... i don't understand your point... they did delay the games - until sunday and monday with another one scheduled for the end of the year.

but how is playing a DH on sunday - in milwaukee, no less - better?....

Schedule changes can be made. What about all the games that get rained out and rescheduled at the end of the season if needed?
they don't wait until the end of the year to play those games; they reschedule then on common off-days or, like the brewers/phillies this weekend, an impromptu DH.

[v3.0]

Bud Selig has been dirty ever since he and some of his buddy owners squeezed Faye Vincent out of the Commish job, and lo and behold he becomes the new Commish. He's still trying to dodge the steroid scandal and throwing the players into the bus so his rep stays clean. All-Star outcome decides the WS home field advantage - STUPID.

The guy is your typical corporate slimeball that looks out for himself and his only saving grace is that baseball has become more profitable under his regime. 2012 when he steps down can't come soon enough.

[hjg877]

I still think Tampa should have been more seriously considered. In fact I sent a message to the ESPN writer Amy K. Nelson, who answered questions in a chat yesterday. I asked if Tampa was ever considered when she talked with MLB officials:

"I don't believe so, especially when there were other alternatives, albeit not great ones."

Of course if it were to occur, Tampa would just complain about their "inconvenience"...and still lose those games over the weekend.

Here's another thing...Tampa played REGULAR SEASON games at Disney THIS YEAR...those Expos played in San Juan in 2003 & 2004.

The Dell Diamond should have been choice #1 if:
-It was available (it was...the management offered its use)
-Weather was not an issue (apparently it wasn't)

Again Milwaukee should NOT have been considered. All choosing Miller Park did was prove two things:
-It's the "official" neutral-site/back-up ballpark (See: 2007 Angels v. Indians (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2830648) ) because:
-Allan Huber Selig still has direct ties to the team/stadium (it was likely a condition of selling the team to Mark L. Attanasio)

If MLB just came out and said Miller Park is THE neutral stadium for unforeseen weather or other catastrophes, it would make slightly more sense.

PS: How the hell are the Brewers allowed to use their throwback uni's as an official alternate (yes, it's listed as alternate 2)?

[Ric]

So it's on McLane's shoulders to make sure that all Astros employees have situated their houses and families in that short period of time? Anything McLane did to agree to the game being held in Milwaukee is on his shoulders, but you can't blame him for not getting the players/staff out of Houston in a timely manner.
yes, i can. if mclane's top priority is minimzing his team's - for lack of a better word - inconvenience, he should have been making concessions well in advance. it's not like we didn't know the hurricane was coming. by all accounts, he refused.

for instance, he could have asked MLB and the pirates to move up the start time of thursday's game to 1pm (a no-brainer; nearly every business in houston closed their offices at noon that day, and MLB/the pirates would have universally agreed to do, no problem), giving his players a chance to secure their homes and families that evening. and then he should have gotten the team out of harm's way friday morning - easy to do, especially when you own a baseball facility - out of the storm's path - just a couple hundred miles away.

that sure as hell beats asking them to come to the stadium sunday morning and flying out then, doesn't it? but he did NONE of that: he wanted the games at MMP and hand-cuffed the process (reportedly).

and look, what if the astros were in the middle of a long road trip? do you think they would postponed games? no way. so their families would have been on their own in the situation.

None of this changes the fact that they easily could've played in Tampa and only inconvenienced the Rays a tiny little bit, if at all and made the whole thing seem a little bit fairer. Instead, two home games for the Astros turned into two home games for the Cubs.
everyone keeps mentioning "home games for the cubs" - who cares? the astros were 5-4 at wrigley this year and it's not like we have a chance to catch 'em, anyway. the part that sucks is that they had to play ANYWHERE in that situation, and worse, in such haste.

asking the rays, preparing for the playoffs themselves, to compromise any capacity of their game is simply not fair.

[Groogrux]

and look, what if the astros were in the middle of a long road trip? do you think they would postponed games? no way. so their families would have been on their own in the situation.


everyone keeps mentioning "home games for the cubs" - who cares? the astros were 5-4 at wrigley this year and it's not like we have a chance to catch 'em, anyway. the part that sucks is that they had to play ANYWHERE in that situation, and worse, in such haste.

asking the rays, preparing for the playoffs themselves, to compromise any capacity of their game is simply not fair.

Who cares? We're not trying to catch the Cubs. We're trying to win the wild card. Just because they were 5-4 at Wrigley doesn't mean that the Cubs aren't an overall better team at home and the Astros overall a worse team on the road.

How would Tampa's game been "compromised" if the Cubs/Astros played there Monday with a start time of 12:05? Unless the game went a ridiculous amount of extra innings, they could've easily started the Rays game on-time, or even a delay of 30 minutes to an hour is hardly something that would compromise the Rays chances in that game considering their opponent would be under the same delay.

Criticize McLane all you want, but an extra three hours on Thursday would not have made a huge difference in the preparations (and using your own logic, a change in game-time is apparently "compromising" a game). And it's not like we knew a week ahead of time that Ike was going to hit Houston dead-on. The Astros as an entire team are feeling the effects of this natural disaster and the MLB did nothing to help them out. Playing the games in Tampa would not have caused anything other than minor inconviences for the Rays franchise. Hell, even if you had to, the Rays could've played a doubleheader today. It's not like those never happen...hell, they're sometimes scheduled that way!

Tampa was the rigth choice and Milwaukee was the worst. You can't spin it any other way.

[msn]

To be fair, if this quote (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/6003712.html) can be trusted:Selig told the Chronicle that he and his staff had worked most of three straight days to find a better location.
then it sounds like Selig at least was aware and attempted to do something better. I'm with RM95 and others, however--all the attempts to explain away Tampa have yet to satisfy me.

At any rate, this discussion and the further digging have brought me to the conclusion that while I *still* disagree, the amount of vitriol I had for it was a bit unwarranted.

I'm still not a Bud Selig fan, however. The word "invertebrate" comes to mind.

[Shaunjon]

Saw this on Espn.com...

That's Debatable: Cubs-Astros in Milwaukee?

Welcome to The Show! On Monday, ESPN.com staff writer Amy K. Nelson will drop by at 1 p.m. ET for another installment of "That's Debatable," a weekly feature in which we break down a hot topic you have suggested.

Monday's topic, courtesy of Joe from Houston:
"Debate this: Major League Baseball shouldn't have let the Astros-Cubs play in Milwaukee. Nearly 23,000 Cubs fans were on hand to see [Carlos] Zambrano's no-hitter last night, and the entire city of Milwaukee serves to benefit from a late-season Astros' charge. Should Bud Selig have recused himself from making a decision like this, especially since he's a part-owner of the Brewers?"


THE CASE FOR MILLER PARKIt's fair to say Major League Baseball didn't have much of a choice. According to Richard Justice of the Houston Chronicle, Astros owner Drayton McLane so wanted this series to be played in Houston -- in spite of warnings from the National Weather Service -- that his judgment clouded all common sense. That left MLB with few alternatives, and Miller Park was named the "neutral" site.

THE CASE AGAINST MILLER PARKAs Joe from Houston notes, not only did it put the Astros and their fans at an obvious disadvantage, it also gave the Astros -- whom Milwaukee is trying to stave off in the wild-card race -- a distinct disadvantage while the division-leading Cubs could play in front a hometown crowd. Even with a last-minute decision, why couldn't the games be held elsewhere -- anywhere -- but Milwaukee? "There was just no other choice," McLane told the Houston Chronicle. "We wanted Phoenix, Tampa Bay, Arlington, Atlanta, you name it. There was nothing else." Fair enough, but had MLB made this decision earlier instead of trying to ride the storm out, perhaps one of those neutral sites would have been available.

THE VERDICTDespite McLane's reported stubbornness, that didn't preclude MLB from making a better and earlier decision. For the record, Selig no longer owns the Brewers (even though his home and office are still in Milwaukee) -- so it's unfair to blame the bias on Selig. In fact, had Selig been making a decision with the Brewers' best interests at heart, he would not have used Miller Park as the neutral site. That doesn't mean he, along with the Cubs and Astros, could have predicted this scenario and planned well ahead. Bottom line: The games should not have been played in Milwaukee.

[DonnyMost]

I don't understand how anyone can defend this decision.

[Refman]

you can't let the human element become a part of this; we're dealing with this strictly from a baseball perspective. he can't disrupt the season for one team.
This is just silly. In fact, it may be one of the silliest things I have ever read. You can't let the human element become part of this? You do realize that baseball is played by human beings, right?

If we lose our humanity in order to not delay baseball games, then you and Selig can take the game and shove it...I really will have little use for it then.

[Refman]

I don't understand how anyone can defend this decision.
Didn't you get Ric's memo...you can't let the human element enter into the decisions made by an entertainment business played by humans and attended by humans. How dare you allow humanity into this. Silly mortal.

[Landlord Landry]

This is just silly. In fact, it may be one of the silliest things I have ever read.

I was thinking the same thing.

how can we not let human element be apart of this.

"hey Astros players, I know ya'll are really concerned about your family, friends, houses, community etc......just try to put that out of your mind for a few days so we can go and play a bullsh!t series setup for you to fail"

I have never seen the Astros so disinterested in a game.

[Major]

I don't understand how anyone can defend this decision.

Why? According to the article posted above, it was in many ways Drayton's fault (and thus the Astros' fault):

According to Richard Justice of the Houston Chronicle, Astros owner Drayton McLane so wanted this series to be played in Houston -- in spite of warnings from the National Weather Service -- that his judgment clouded all common sense. That left MLB with few alternatives, and Miller Park was named the "neutral" site.

...

Even with a last-minute decision, why couldn't the games be held elsewhere -- anywhere -- but Milwaukee? "There was just no other choice," McLane told the Houston Chronicle. "We wanted Phoenix, Tampa Bay, Arlington, Atlanta, you name it. There was nothing else."


It's clear they went through and eliminated the other options for various reasons.

[Landlord Landry]

It's clear they went through and eliminated the other options for various reasons.

and that makes it less disgusting?

[Major]

and that makes it less disgusting?

Umm, if that was the only option available, you still don't think it's justified?

[Groogrux]

Why? According to the article posted above, it was in many ways Drayton's fault (and thus the Astros' fault):

According to Richard Justice of the Houston Chronicle, Astros owner Drayton McLane so wanted this series to be played in Houston -- in spite of warnings from the National Weather Service -- that his judgment clouded all common sense. That left MLB with few alternatives, and Miller Park was named the "neutral" site.

...

Even with a last-minute decision, why couldn't the games be held elsewhere -- anywhere -- but Milwaukee? "There was just no other choice," McLane told the Houston Chronicle. "We wanted Phoenix, Tampa Bay, Arlington, Atlanta, you name it. There was nothing else."


It's clear they went through and eliminated the other options for various reasons.

Well, it's a good thing MLB has never made a mistake under Selig! :) Color me surprised that his daughter's team would get to host a "neutral-site" game when they're in the thick of a playoff race and those games would directly affect the outcome of her team's chances. A mere 30 minutes from the nothern suburbs of the team we were facing to boot!

I'd really love to hear their reasoning for not choosing Tampa. Of course, we have two sources in this thread saying opposite things. Richard Justice (the Writer of Wrongs) saying Tampa was considered, but an MLB writer said that Tampa never was considered.

Just because McLane had a part in this horrible decision doesn't make it any less of a travesty. **** MLB.

Umm, if that was the only option available, you still don't think it's justified?

It depends on the various reasons. According to a writer for MLB.com, Tampa was not even considered.

[edwardc]

They should have just waited til later to play the game. Selig is a idiot for no making caring about these players .

[Landlord Landry]

Umm, if that was the only option available, you still don't think it's justified?

I don't believe it was the only option.

[Groogrux]

I don't believe it was the only option.

There is no way that was the only option. DH in Minnesota yesterday? The Tampa option. There was a whopping 20% chance of rain in Atlanta yesterday.

People are acting like what happened in Houston this weekend was a tiny little rainstorm that caused some minimal flooding. They should've taken the players interests and put it at the top of any list. If it means sitting down and figuring out a way to delay the start of the playoffs by a couple days, then all means.

It was handled in a piss-poor fashion all the way around (including by McLane). About par for the course for MLB.

[Major]

I don't believe it was the only option.

Fair enough - but both the Astros and MLB say otherwise.

[Major]

It depends on the various reasons. According to a writer for MLB.com, Tampa was not even considered.

McLane himself said they wanted Tampa and that it wasn't an option. I agree that it would be nice to know the reasoning, but it's appears that they did consider it and rule it out.

[yobod]

What I don't get is why does the site have to be neutral? It was supposed to be a HOME GAME. We deserve to play somewhere as close to home as possible. This is just one more straw on the already broken back of the camel. Bud Selig is a deplorable, dispicable commisioner, and deserves to be fired.

[Landlord Landry]

Fair enough - but both the Astros and MLB say otherwise.

of course. It was a piss poor decision that benefited Major Leauge Baseball, and Drayton will light his own dick on fire if Bud Selig told him too.

[bobrek]

There is no way that was the only option. DH in Minnesota yesterday?....

I assume the folks in Minnesota didn't want to deal with converting the stadium back from football. It is one of those rare September instances where the stadium was in football mode over the past weekend and the Twins don't return until after next weekend and both the Gophers and Vikings play next weekend.

Minnesota would have also seen a lot of Cubs fans (but there would have been at least 2 Astros fans there. :) )

[Groogrux]

John Whitmire (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/6005644.html) rules!

Whitmire says baseball puts money first
State senator rips MLB for moving Astros to Miller Park

State Sen. John Whitmire has ripped baseball commissioner Bud Selig on Tuesday for the move of two Astros home games to Milwaukee.

Whitmire, a Democrat from Houston, faulted Selig for forcing the Astros to play the Chicago Cubs on Sunday and Monday at Miller Park while neighbors and relatives coped with the storm in Houston. (Whitmire was reached on his phone while he helped mop a constituent's home after Hurricane Ike.)

"It is outrageous what Major League Baseball and Commissioner Bud Selig did to the Houston Astros players, their families, and the Houston community of Astros' supporters," Whitmire said Tuesday. "First, it is unconscionable to have the Houston Astros play in Milwaukee on Sunday night when the players and team staff should be in Houston with their families or in other locations where their families have evacuated.

"To require players like Lance Berkman to drive at 4:00 a.m. (Sunday) from San Marcos back to Houston to catch an (10) a.m. flight to Milwaukee is outrageous. Major League Baseball endangered the lives of the team and their families. Some things are more important than baseball and money."

Selig said on Monday that the Chronicle that he and his staff had worked most of three straight days to find a better location.

"Was it perfect? No," Selig said about the move to Milwaukee. "I went through every option. I finally looked at it and realized I didn't have another option."

Other venues had scheduling conflicts or rain in the forecast.

Whitmire is a longtime Astros' season-ticket holder and good friend of team owner Drayton McLane and Round Rock Express and Corpus Christi Hooks co-owner Don Sanders. He presented Astros right fielder Hunter Pence with the team's 2007 Rookie of the Year award.

"The perception, if not the reality, of Bud Selig's connection to the Milwaukee franchise questions the integrity of his decision," Whitmire said. "It is outrageous that commissioner Selig would have the Houston Astros play in a venue which benefits the Chicago team, but more importantly benefits the Milwaukee baseball team and its wild card race and the Milwaukee area and team economically.

"The weak excuses of other possible venues and scheduling conflicts pale in comparison to the disadvantage Bud Selig put the Houston team in with its wild-card race."

Several Astros practically cheered and called over other teammates to read Whitmire's comments.

"I think it's a great way to describe how everybody feels about the situation," Berkman said. "But you know it's nothing new. Major League Baseball has always valued the dollar more than they do the individual, the players and their families. That's illustrated in things like playing through a lightning storm in Chicago (on Aug. 4). "The most important thing is getting the game in so you don't lose the gate and you don't lose the revenue. That's A-No. 1."

He said the situation is "a sad part of the game."

"If in the course of that you can work it around where players aren't affected, that's a distant second. That's one reason why players try to exploit the system to the max because they know they're being treated the same way. ... That's the business part of the game. That's the part that I think is distasteful to a lot of people."

jesus.ortiz@chron.com



What would've happened if the players refused to leave their families?

[Groogrux]

I assume the folks in Minnesota didn't want to deal with converting the stadium back from football. It is one of those rare September instances where the stadium was in football mode over the past weekend and the Twins don't return until after next weekend and both the Gophers and Vikings play next weekend.

Minnesota would have also seen a lot of Cubs fans (but there would have been at least 2 Astros fans there. :) )

How long could that possibly take? Didn't they do that in the Astrodome all the time?

What a sad excuse if that's the reason.

[Wakko67]

Did anyone see John Kruk go off on MLB on Baseball Tonight? If so where can I find the footage? It sounded like it was pretty good.

[msn]

Several Astros practically cheered and called over other teammates to read Whitmire's comments.
That part is pretty telling.

I'm right there with the Astros, Whitmire, Berkman, RM95, the ESPN article quoted earlier, and what appears to be a majority of folks beyond Selig, Cubs fans, and a few folks here--but I have to point this out, in all fairness:
But you know it's nothing new. Major League Baseball has always valued the dollar more than they do the individual, the players and their families.
...said the guy with a multimillion dollar contract to play a game.

[bobrek]

How long could that possibly take? Didn't they do that in the Astrodome all the time?

What a sad excuse if that's the reason.

It could certainly have been done in time for a Monday DH. I assume that, for whatever reason, they were looking for a site available both Sunday and Monday. It would be nice to ask MLB why a Monday DH was not an option.

[JunkyardDwg]

Selig said on Monday that the Chronicle that he and his staff had worked most of three straight days to find a better location.

"Was it perfect? No," Selig said about the move to Milwaukee. "I went through every option. I finally looked at it and realized I didn't have another option."

Other venues had scheduling conflicts or rain in the forecast.

I would like Selig to give me a reason why every single other ballpark in the NL and AL was unsuitable to play except for Milwaukee..every single one...and then we'll see if that explanation really holds.

And the more I think about it, the more I believe the best option for this team was to move the whole series to the end of the season. Push the start of the playoffs back a day or two and give the players on this team time to get their families settled and their affairs in order (as best they can). These guys had to leave early Sunday for Milwaukee and they won't even be back home until next week. Forget baseball, that's not even fair to them as human beings. At the very least, they should have held a DH in Houston on Monday...so what if not many fans show up, the players are at least close to their families and their homes.

[RocketFan007]

Great to see the guys quit on the season.

[Ric]

This is just silly. In fact, it may be one of the silliest things I have ever read. You can't let the human element become part of this? You do realize that baseball is played by human beings, right?
read the entire thread, please.

we're discussing this from a baseball perspective only. of course there's a human element, of course it's tragic. no one, including me, thinks otherwise. BUT... MLB is NOT going to suspend its schedule for one team. that's just not going to happen; it's not a reality. so with this paticular discussion, that's your foundation - everything starts from there.

[Ric]

How would Tampa's game been "compromised" if the Cubs/Astros played there Monday with a start time of 12:05? Unless the game went a ridiculous amount of extra innings, they could've easily started the Rays game on-time, or even a delay of 30 minutes to an hour is hardly something that would compromise the Rays chances in that game considering their opponent would be under the same delay.
RM95, players and the stadium personnel don't show up at 6:55pm for a 7:05pm first pitch. you have a new team coming to town - they need time to get to the stadium, get situated in the locker room, make sure uniforms, etc., are ready to go.

they then have batting and fielding practice - both teams. at separate times. and this all starts 3-4 hours before game time. come on: it's not like we're peeling back some unseen element of MLB. this is pretty common sense stuff.

you don't inconvience two other teams when a viable stadium that meets your requirements is available.

Criticize McLane all you want, but an extra three hours on Thursday would not have made a huge difference in the preparations (and using your own logic, a change in game-time is apparently "compromising" a game).
what?! they would have been home before the regularly-scheduled game even began if they had moved it up, RM95.

and they change game times a lot - to accomodate TV, etc.; but that's different: you're not potentially compromising other teams' and their timeframe to properly prepare for a game.

And it's not like we knew a week ahead of time that Ike was going to hit Houston dead-on.
i'm sorry, but B.S. i'm on my company's hurricane leadership team and we started twice daily meetings on ike on september 4. you can't sit with a thumb strategically inserted in a certain hole with a hurricane like that bearing down, especially given the tracking data they had. houston was very much almost always a possibility as soon as it entered the GoM. heck, we had our eye on it BEFORE gustav.

The Astros as an entire team are feeling the effects of this natural disaster and the MLB did nothing to help them out. Playing the games in Tampa would not have caused anything other than minor inconviences for the Rays franchise. Hell, even if you had to, the Rays could've played a doubleheader today. It's not like those never happen...hell, they're sometimes scheduled that way!
so rather than minimizing the disruption, your solution would have been to spread as much disruption as needed to avoid an unfair situation for one team? i'm guessing your astros blinders were on when you posted that?

Tampa was the rigth choice and Milwaukee was the worst. You can't spin it any other way.
no one is trying to, RM95. milwaukee was an awful, unfair solution. but it was also the most viable. unfortunately. tampa wasn't viable; it just wasn't.

and, btw - what is everyone's excuse for last night? you all bitched and moaned how unfair milwaukee was, how it impacted those games and it was unfair. and i countered repeatedly that playing ANYWHERE would have been unfair... and sure enough, in front of about 12 apathetic people, they gave the same performance in florida last night.

milwaukee was a temporary inconvience; it's the freaking hurricane that's done the most damage, literally and figuratively. people seem to be forgetting that. NO SITUATION WOULD HAVE BEEN ANYTHING BUT DIFFICULT.

[JunkyardDwg]

and, btw - what is everyone's excuse for last night? you all bitched and moaned how unfair milwaukee was, how it impacted those games and it was unfair. and i countered repeatedly that playing ANYWHERE would have been unfair... and sure enough, in front of about 12 apathetic people, they gave the same performance in florida last night.

milwaukee was a temporary inconvience; it's the freaking hurricane that's done the most damage, literally and figuratively. people seem to be forgetting that. NO SITUATION WOULD HAVE BEEN ANYTHING BUT DIFFICULT.

I agree, Milwaukee certainly didn't help their cause...and honestly I think the biggest mistake was forcing the team to play right away. MLB should have given them at least Sunday off and perhaps Monday too. Push the series to the end of the season or let them play a DH at MMP at HOME where their families are close by and give players a chance to give get their homes and lives back in order. Hardly think it's fair to force them to board a plane not 24 hours after a major hurricane hits and expect them to stay out on the road for a week while their lives are in disarray.

At the same time...the players need to show some resolve and play hard and try (as best they can) to focus on baseball during the game. I won't hold against them if they can't though.

[Groogrux]

Ric,

Really, players don't get to the stadium 10 minutes before gametime? I had no idea?!?! Thanks for that heads-up. That way, the 7 hour Astros game that most definitely would've occured had they played in Tampa at 12:00 on Monday afternoon totally would've messed everything up! It's so clear now.

Signed,

Not a ****ing idiot so don't talk to me like one.

[Groogrux]

I agree, Milwaukee certainly didn't help their cause...and honestly I think the biggest mistake was forcing the team to play right away. MLB should have given them at least Sunday off and perhaps Monday too. Push the series to the end of the season or let them play a DH at MMP at HOME where their families are close by and give players a chance to give get their homes and lives back in order. Hardly think it's fair to force them to board a plane not 24 hours after a major hurricane hits and expect them to stay out on the road for a week while their lives are in disarray.

At the same time...the players need to show some resolve and play hard and try (as best they can) to focus on baseball during the game. I won't hold against them if they can't though.

They should've absolutely taken more time to figure out a solution especially after seeing the devastation Saturday morning. This is, from what I can tell, an unprecedented event in MLB and they should've looked at all options including delaying the start of the playoffs which were still nearly three weeks away when the storm hit.

And no amount of sarcastic bull**** will ever lead me to believe that the Astros a game in Tampa at 12:05 Monday afternoon would have dramatically impacted the Rays game that night unless you're planning on the .00001% chance they're going to play the longest game in MLB history. And at that point, you suspend the game (that's been done many times before).

[Landlord Landry]

did anybody else read the latest classless story about the Cubs?

apparently after the Zambrano no-no, they completeley trashed the Brewers clubhouse....nice. :rolleyes:

[Ric]

That way, the 7 hour Astros game that most definitely would've occured had they played in Tampa at 12:00 on Monday afternoon totally would've messed everything up!
well, Not a ****ing idiot so don't talk to me like one - it wouldn't take a "7 hour Astros game" to mess up the 7:05 start of the rays/red sox game.

for instance: the astros and cubs, on september 2, played an 11-inning, 4-hour and 17-minute game. that was 15 days ago.

with a 12:05 start, that would have led to 4 teams trying to use two locker rooms at the same time in that scenario, potentially delaying the start of the other, previously scheduled game. meanwhile, in milwaukee - not an ideal location, sure - you had an empty stadium WITH ZERO COMPLICATIONS.

and for the record: i don't think you're an idiot; i've never thought you were an idiot; and i've never shown you or your posts that degree of disrepsect. there's been a sharp division of opinion on this subject. but amid 7-8 pages worth of generally civil dialogue, you're the only one to lose their temper, and it was on, like, your 5th post. and it was in response to a well-reasoned post of mine that tried to explicitly detail why a game in tampa bay on monday wasn't viable.

so, no - not an idiot. a dick, on the other hand.....

[Landlord Landry]

Ric wins....whateva, old news, water/bridge.....that whole 'under' it thing. move on.

[Ric]

This is, from what I can tell, an unprecedented event in MLB and they should've looked at all options including delaying the start of the playoffs which were still nearly three weeks away when the storm hit.
it's not an option.

not only has fox built its entire fall schedule (and tens of millions of dollars) around locked-in postseason and world series dates, but you also have a decent chance of several cities with harsh winters hosting world series games in novemeber - can you imagine chicago and boston trying to play a WS the second or third week of november? it's take until spring....

i realize those things pale next to the events in houston this past weekend, and i'm NOT trying to minimize what happened. but you have to look at this from a strictly baseball-only perspective.

and delaying the season is simply not an option. that's why i throw this on drayton mclane's shoulders: you have to be proactive in a situation like this. he was not. i have no idea what was said behind closed doors, but the results bear that out.

they should have moved up their thursday game and gotten out of town friday morning. that's FAR more reasonable than scheduling games at stadiums that already had games scheduled.

[JunkyardDwg]

it's not an option.

not only has fox built its entire fall schedule (and tens of millions of dollars) around locked-in postseason and world series dates, but you also have a decent chance of several cities with harsh winters hosting world series games in novemeber - can you imagine chicago and boston trying to play a WS the second or third week of november? it's take until spring....

i realize those things pale next to the events in houston this past weekend, and i'm NOT trying to minimize what happened. but you have to look at this from a strictly baseball-only perspective.

Sorry I disagree, it's very much an option. You're talking about the lives of living, breathing, human beings here. The decent thing to do is to push the start of the playoffs back a couple days; that's all you need. I doubt that messes with their schedule that much...especially when you consider that the teams going to the WS could very well have open stadiums (Fox may have to shuffle their schedule around if games are postponed). I doubt pushing the playoffs back a few days is gonna make the weather any more harsh than it already would be. Plus, there is precedent for this...Sept 11.

You are right about one thing though; MLB is looking at this strictly from a baseball and business perspective; but it shouldn't be.

[Ric]

Plus, there is precedent for this...Sept 11.
this is nothing like 9/11; it's one of your teams in one of your markets having 3 games disrupted. you just can't reconfigure your entire set in stone schedule for that.

i hate that i have to argue this side; i don't like it one bit. i agree with everyone's sentiments: i wish they could postpone the season and let the astro players have... however long to dig themselves out of ike's rubble. believe me. i live in houston. i went through this, too.

but that's simply not viable.

from a baseball perspective only (which does not mean i don't appreciate/respect the human perspective), it's simply horribly-timed: to come in the middle of a hot streak, to wipe out three big home games, to send the players on the road in the shadow of its aftermath.... it's just all-around unfortunate.

and yet, they're STILL only 3 games back and now chasing two teams in free-fall. the dream is still alive...

[magnetik]

it's not an option.

can you imagine chicago and boston trying to play a WS the second or third week of november?


hehe.. They would just move it over to a neutral site like NY. I can only imagine what they would say if that happened. :D

[JunkyardDwg]

this is nothing like 9/11; it's one of your teams in one of your markets having 3 games disrupted. you just can't reconfigure your entire set in stone schedule for that.


Clearly the two events are not equal...but they are comparable in that they are both disasters that cost large amounts of destruction as well as lives. And while all of baseball was postponed for a few days because of the event (since Sept 11 was more national in scope than Ike), the point is that MLB did do just that...they stopped thinking about money for a second and that's what they should have done here.

And as I said, at the very least they could have let the Astros play on Monday at MMP where they could still be close to their families.

[BrooksBall]

Putting aside the Wrigley North deal, the fact that MLB made the Astros travel/play baseball less than 24 hours after a hurricane hit was the most central mistake. It was a cold, unsympathetic, inhumane, money-first decision that may have ultimately cost the Astros, fans of the Astros and the city of Houston a playoff berth.

As far as I'm concerned, McLane didn't fight back hard enough, either. He should have publicly chastised Selig and MLB for the decision. I still haven't heard a single significant statement come out of his mouth regarding that whole debacle. Maybe, he's still adding up his gate receipts. At the least (the very least), he could have pushed for a Monday double-header if he wasn't going to firmly protest being forced to travel under those conditions. I am guessing he saw more money to be made at a Sunday night game even if it very well could have cost the Astros a win or two due to fatigue and its carryover effect.

[Refman]

read the entire thread, please.

we're discussing this from a baseball perspective only. of course there's a human element, of course it's tragic. no one, including me, thinks otherwise. BUT... MLB is NOT going to suspend its schedule for one team. that's just not going to happen; it's not a reality. so with this paticular discussion, that's your foundation - everything starts from there.
OK...firstly...I HAVE read the entire thread. I have been responding throughout this thread. You might want to fact check just a little before you chastise somebody. Just a thought.

Now for some clarity. Anybody who believes that you can make decisions from "a baseball perspective on;y" ignoring the humans that play the game either has their priorities out of whack or is functionally retarded.

[Ric]

OK...firstly...I HAVE read the entire thread.
ok, then: read the entire thread more carefully, please. i've stated throughout that no one is dismissing that on a purely human scale, MLB made a mistake; i'm sure selig would admit that as well.

anything you say, in defense of baseball, pales next to the human toll. no one is going to shed a tear because fox's fall schedule gets turned upside down, etc. it's ultimately silly.

that's why selig was in a no-win situation. because here's a freezing cold fact: hurricane ike didn't impact 29 other organizations; it didn't disrupt fox or tbs' programming; it didn't threaten national security... how do you properly balance that with the human aspect: what's fair? what's right?

i didn't personally like the decision but i understood it. i'm guessing selig didn't like it, either but likely felt handcuffed - damned if he did, damned if he didn't. this is truly unprecedented, especially this late in the season when off-days are scarce.

i think it's easy to react emotionally - postpone the season! - but that's easier said than done. and the way the astros are playing... i'm not sure ANY amount of time would have been enough. they look spent.

[MadMax]

Putting aside the Wrigley North deal, the fact that MLB made the Astros travel/play baseball less than 24 hours after a hurricane hit was the most central mistake. It was a cold, unsympathetic, inhumane, money-first decision that may have ultimately cost the Astros, fans of the Astros and the city of Houston a playoff berth.

As far as I'm concerned, McLane didn't fight back hard enough, either. He should have publicly chastised Selig and MLB for the decision. I still haven't heard a single significant statement come out of his mouth regarding that whole debacle. Maybe, he's still adding up his gate receipts. At the least (the very least), he could have pushed for a Monday double-header if he wasn't going to firmly protest being forced to travel under those conditions. I am guessing he saw more money to be made at a Sunday night game even if it very well could have cost the Astros a win or two due to fatigue and its carryover effect.
i haven't read this thread, but i'll adopt this post.

there has to be a better solution than what was found. there has to be. because what was found means one team is playing 2 more road games than everyone else...and the fact that it was in milawaukee was just nuts.

[JunkyardDwg]

that's why selig was in a no-win situation. because here's a freezing cold fact: hurricane ike didn't impact 29 other organizations; it didn't disrupt fox or tbs' programming; it didn't threaten national security... how do you properly balance that with the human aspect: what's fair? what's right?


And I'm calling bulls**t on that. It's this lack for the human element that got MLB into hot water with the fans and media in the first place. You cannot separate that from the baseball side. Tell me how many people went to work on Sunday?...on Monday?. Is it too much to allow the players time to tend to their families and assess the damage to their homes? The NFL was prepared to have the Texans play on Monday and would have had Reliant not been damaged. So why was it ok for the Texans to play in Houston but not the Astros? And when Reliant was no longer an option, did the NFL move them to another stadium so they still play? No, they rearranged the schedule to fit it in later in the season. Now granted, they had more time to work with since the NFL season just began, but the Astros could have easily played a DH Monday in Houston...I wanna know why that wasn't option? But I probably know the answer...money.

They could have tacked those games on at the end of the season and it may not have even affected the start of the playoffs (the Astros might have been eliminated by that time or could theoretically have clinched as well). If it did, again, I doubt it would mess with the networks programming all that much, especially considering they'd have to deal with weather postponements anyways. And if you wanna talk strictly about baseball, well what if the Astros and Cubs series was pushed back to the end of the season and it had playoffs implications. You hold it in Houston and Drayton probably gets to bask in the happiness of sellouts...and as for Fox they could probably bank off of it by billing it as some kind of playoff preview.

[Ric]

Tell me how many people went to work on Sunday?...on Monday?
i did. i worked saturday, too. and every other day this week.

And when Reliant was no longer an option, did the NFL move them to another stadium so they still play? No, they rearranged the schedule to fit it in later in the season.
the nfl's schedule had infinitely more flexibility.

the Astros could have easily played a DH Monday in Houston...I wanna know why that wasn't option? But I probably know the answer...money.
uhm, no - downtown houston was closed until wednesday. and as i said in response to RM95 when he brought this up - even if it wasn't, where were the cubs going to stay and which hotel employees would have had to leave THEIR families to come tend to them?

They could have tacked those games on at the end of the season and it may not have even affected the start of the playoffs (the Astros might have been eliminated by that time or could theoretically have clinched as well). If it did, again, I doubt it would mess with the networks programming all that much, especially considering they'd have to deal with weather postponements anyways.
you can't play three games in a single day, which is how the schedule is set-up, nor can you ask a playoff team to play meaningful games before the postseason but long after they've clinched homefield advantage, set their rotation, etc.

travel days are how they circumvent weather conditions in the postseason, btw; to my knowledge -other than 2001 and whatever year the earthquake hit SF - they've never bumped the WS schedule.

And if you wanna talk strictly about baseball, well what if the Astros and Cubs series was pushed back to the end of the season and it had playoffs implications. You hold it in Houston and Drayton probably gets to bask in the happiness of sellouts...and as for Fox they could probably bank off of it by billing it as some kind of playoff preview.
fox wouldn't have had the rights to show it.

again, there is one off day before the playoffs start. ONE. and tbs and fox have built their entire fall schedules around playoff dates that were set before the season even started.

it's not fair, it IS about money... but you can't just sweep those away as afterthoughts, either.

[ChrisP]

Round Rock

Others have mentioned that as an alternative, why was that not used? If "it's not an MLB stadium" is the only reason, (besides that being a weak excuse) I heard on the radio that regular season games have been played at a spring training facility before. Sounds like a precedent.

Maybe I missed how Ric shot that one down.

Besides, many Houstonians had evacuated to Austin, so it would have been a real home game. :-)

[msn]

Round Rock

Others have mentioned that as an alternative, why was that not used? If "it's not an MLB stadium" is the only reason, (besides that being a weak excuse) I heard on the radio that regular season games have been played at a spring training facility before. Sounds like a precedent.

Maybe I missed how Ric shot that one down.

Besides, many Houstonians had evacuated to Austin, so it would have been a real home game. :-)
That and the half-dozen or so NCAA baseball fields around Texas. UT? A&M?

Something in San Antonio would have seriously rocked (but I'm biased towards SA).

[JunkyardDwg]

i did. i worked saturday, too. and every other day this week.

Well I didn't ask if you were working...I asked how many people were...and I'd say a lot more people were not...I myself was one of them, my wife was another. Same with my brother-in-law.


the nfl's schedule had infinitely more flexibility.

I've already said that because the NFL season just started, that's gonna give them more options to reschedule...but in doing so they did have to move the Cincy game and in turn push their bye week back. The Astros had an off day Monday in which they could have played a double header. They could have then played the last game, if necessary, the day after the season ends.

uhm, no - downtown houston was closed until wednesday. and as i said in response to RM95 when he brought this up - even if it wasn't, where were the cubs going to stay and which hotel employees would have had to leave THEIR families to come tend to them?

Downtown had power and MMP was not damaged. The game could have occurred there with or without fans. And at least the players get to compete at home and remain close to their families. Both Downtown and the Med Center had power; I'm sure you could find a hotel that was still operating that the players could use. If not the Cubs could fly in on Monday...the Astros were required to fly in on Sunday for a game the same day, and they were probably a lot more fatigued having to deal with Ike in early morning hours than the Cubs who had two days of rest.


you can't play three games in a single day, which is how the schedule is set-up, nor can you ask a playoff team to play meaningful games before the postseason but long after they've clinched homefield advantage, set their rotation, etc.

No one is expecting them to play three games...but a DH is not out of the question with one game at the end of the season. That one game may not even be played, and if it is, the Cubs most likely will have clinched by then and could rest their starters...even if they choose not to I don't see how it would mess with their rotation since whoever pitches in that game wouldn't have been slated to pitch in the 1st playoff game anyways.

travel days are how they circumvent weather conditions in the postseason, btw; to my knowledge -other than 2001 and whatever year the earthquake hit SF - they've never bumped the WS schedule.

But they have bumped it so there is precedent. My point was that the networks most likely figure postponements into their scheduling; so whether you use that travel day to make up a rained out game or because the playoffs were pushed back a day, the fact is you have that travel day to do so.


fox wouldn't have had the rights to show it.

Well the Texans and Ravens game was originally scheduled for CBS but when it got moved to Monday it was going to be shown on ESPN 2. To my knowledge ESPN isn't part of the CBS network. I'm sure Fox could do the same. And I seem to recall Sunday Night Football having the luxury of dropping/picking up games later in the season that are less/more important in the playoff picture. Certainly it was a deal worked out with the NFL, but if the networks can work that out in one sport, I'm sure they can do it in others.

again, there is one off day before the playoffs start. ONE. and tbs and fox have built their entire fall schedules around playoff dates that were set before the season even started.

Whenever they "locked" in their schedule, it's gonna have some flexibility in it, especially when you are talking about sports...especially when you are talking about baseball. And more than likely, new fall episodes will be on hiatus until after the baseball season is over...I could be wrong but that seems to have been the case in the past.

it's not fair, it IS about money... but you can't just sweep those away as afterthoughts, either.

Nobody is sweeping those away as afterthoughts. But when you are talking about a life and death event, some things are more important than others. And shame on MLB for putting money first. The players have said that, the fans and the media as well.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[magnetik]

I agree.

[AGBee]

Drayton was never going to let the Astros play in an empty stadium. He made a ton more $$$ off of the home games in Milwaukee.

[msn]

Drayton was never going to let the Astros play in an empty stadium. He made a ton more $$$ off of the home games in Milwaukee.
Please enlighten us as to how Drayton McLane made "$$$" off of the home games in Milwaukee. Provide links.

[dskillz]

Please enlighten us as to how Drayton McLane made "$$$" off of the home games in Milwaukee. Provide links.


According to Richard Justice, Drayton got the gate like it was a home game at Minute Maid. second blog entry on this page: http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/

Another point that has been made is that he still owns the Brewers and got some financial gain by moving the series to Milwaukee. First, he doesn't own the Brewers. Second, the Brewers didn't get the gate. The Astros did.

With all that said, for the team to blame the Milwaukee trip for their problems is BS. For a team to be this mentally weak. People in Galveston have lost everything and they are bitching about flying to Milwaukee and playing a game? A move that the owner agreed to? It was unfortunate that it happened like this, but it is unfortuante that most of Houston has no power, it is unfortunate that people in Galveston lost everything, unfortunate that lives were lost. These players need to get a grip and realize they are in a position to lift up many of these people who are truly suffering because of Ike. Instead they seem to be fine with rolling over.


I agree with all this in today's column:

If the Astros let the trip to Milwaukee do this much damage, shame on them. It would be easy to assume that considering the T-shirts some players were wearing Thursday afternoon.

Those shirts had a simple message.

“Bud Killed Us”

Yes, indeed. He sent them to a place they didn’t want to be and had them play two games they didn’t want to play.

Never mind that Drayton McLane and the Major League Players Association agreed to the switch. Never mind that MLB had the matter thrown in its lap because McLane refused to call off the Cubs-Astros series until it was too late to send the teams to a true neutral site over the weekend. MLB even offered to send a second plane to Houston to take family members to safety.

That said, there’s no way the Astros should have been playing in Milwaukee Sunday night after two stressful, sleepless nights.

There’s also no way that one trip should have ruined months of good work. The Astros were right about being treated unfairly.

[msn]

According to Richard Justice, Drayton got the gate like it was a home game at Minute Maid. second blog entry on this page: http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/
Thanks! I hadn't read that.

With all that said, for the team to blame the Milwaukee trip for their problems is BS.
If they really are, then I agree. If Astros team members are really wearing "Bud killed us" T-shirts, that is reprehensible. At that point, (and I find it hard to believe grown men are moping around about a damn game while their community suffers the way it is), I would agree with you completely here:For a team to be this mentally weak. People in Galveston have lost everything and they are bitching about flying to Milwaukee and playing a game? A move that the owner agreed to? It was unfortunate that it happened like this, but it is unfortuante that most of Houston has no power, it is unfortunate that people in Galveston lost everything, unfortunate that lives were lost. These players need to get a grip and realize they are in a position to lift up many of these people who are truly suffering because of Ike. Instead they seem to be fine with rolling over.
I've opined over and over that the games should *not* have been in Milwaukee, and I'm not backing down from that opinion. But they were. And if the Astros, as grown men, are responding in this manner, that's truly sad. Truly, truly sad.

[bobrek]

Drayton was never going to let the Astros play in an empty stadium. He made a ton more $$$ off of the home games in Milwaukee.

Do you really believe he made a ton of money on the Milwaukee games? Obviously, the team received more money from gate receipts at Miller Park then they would have playing in an empty stadium, but you do realize - don't you, they also have to refund money to over 70,000+ ticket holders for the two games (probably 3 now) lost to Hurrican Ike that Minute Maid park ticket holders could not go to?

I assume a lot of money was lost due to the moving/cancellation of those games (not that that should matter in the overall scheme of things).

I am getting tired of some folks seeing this as a "money grab" for McLane.

[Uprising]

Bud Selig about his controversy. Rosenthal interview. Also, on ESPN Bud admited it gave the Cubs the advantage. Although he says he feels upset about how it all turned out.

Bud donated $500,000 on behalf of the MLB to support Ike effort.

Q: You have taken criticism for your decision to shift the Astros-Cubs series to Milwaukee's Miller Park after Hurricane Ike ravaged Houston last weekend. What happened?

A: Those have been questions in Houston, obviously. Look, what happened is the tragedy of the hurricane. We bent over backwards. We considered all of the options. I had three weather services — I can keep you all day going through all this.

When we knew early Saturday morning about the devastation, we knew we couldn't play in Houston. We had to consider other options.

We called Minnesota. They had the (University of Minnesota) Golden Gophers (football game) on Saturday and the (Minnesota) Vikings on Sunday. In Arizona, the Diamondbacks were playing. Atlanta, all three weather services said there was going to be rain. Tampa, the Red Sox were playing on Monday. Washington ... we went through every alternative.

Q: St. Louis?

The storm went through St. Louis. You know what happened to Chicago last week. St. Louis got all that rain. All three weather services said, "Don't even think about going there."

Q: Texas?

A: Every weather service predicted that the storm would go right up through Texas — and that the devastation might be worse. And Texas was playing at home on Monday.

We had decisions to make on Saturday. The more we went through it, the only option we had left was Milwaukee.

(The teams played two games at Miller Park, and the third game will be made up in Houston at the end of the season, if necessary.)

I kept the third game (in Houston). We're not supposed to do that.

We're supposed to play all the games during the season. But I gave Houston the third game if it means something the following Monday.

This was a tragedy.

I frankly wanted to go to Minnesota. The Cubs would have had a lot of fans there as well. Wherever the Cubs go, that (phenomenon) takes place. But Minnesota was out. We had no choice. Between the rain and the domes in use, we had no choice.

We couldn't send them out to the West Coast. The (Astros) had to be in Florida (on Tuesday night). If I sent them to Dodger Stadium or Seattle, they would have played a double-header Monday, then flown all night to Miami.

People can sit around and second-guess. But as I go back through my notes, there were no other viable alternatives. I couldn't send them somewhere where it was going to rain.


Q: Your options would have been greater if Astros owner Drayton McLane had agreed to postpone the games before the hurricane hit.

A: A lot of people are blaming him for that. I don't think it's fair. I want to protect Drayton. He was very hopeful that the hurricane wouldn't be as severe as it was. Only Saturday morning did we realize that we couldn't stay in Houston.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8576516

[thacabbage]

I kept the third game (in Houston). We're not supposed to do that.

We're supposed to play all the games during the season. But I gave Houston the third game if it means something the following Monday.
Thanks for being so gracious, Bud.


I frankly wanted to go to Minnesota. The Cubs would have had a lot of fans there as well. Wherever the Cubs go, that (phenomenon) takes place.
Give me a break. Wherever the Cubs go, that phenomenon takes place...? If this is his way of diminishing the fact that Miller Park transformed into Wrigley field those two nights, essentially that the "phenomenon" would have occurred almost anywhere and so it was thus unavoidable, wow I don't know what to say.

Look, I agree that there is absolutely no excuse for the team to have completely rolled over thus since. That's pretty weak. But, acceptance of that fact does not nullify the extant reality that they were royally screwed and have every right to feel that way. My biggest fear when it was first announced that the games would be played in Milwaukee, having a feeling the team would completely collapse after losing all momentum, was that if they finished the season not even in the picture, MLB/Drayton/Selig would be completely off the hook and it would seem a moot point. It looks like that has happened.

[VesceySux]

Q: Texas?

A: Every weather service predicted that the storm would go right up through Texas — and that the devastation might be worse. And Texas was playing at home on Monday.

WTF? Does Bud not understand that hurricanes tend to weaken over land?

[Cannonball]

I still would have rather played the games in Round Rock. I'd like to hear why Bud didn't like that option. Aside from smaller seating capacity, I can't think of any other reasons.

[Landlord Landry]

question: what does a pretentious prick sound like?

bud:

A: Those have been questions in Houston, obviously. Look, what happened is the tragedy of the hurricane. We bent over backwards. We considered all of the options. I had three weather services — I can keep you all day going through all this.

When we knew early Saturday morning about the devastation, we knew we couldn't play in Houston. We had to consider other options.

We called Minnesota. They had the (University of Minnesota) Golden Gophers (football game) on Saturday and the (Minnesota) Vikings on Sunday. In Arizona, the Diamondbacks were playing. Atlanta, all three weather services said there was going to be rain. Tampa, the Red Sox were playing on Monday. Washington ... we went through every alternative.

Q: St. Louis?

The storm went through St. Louis. You know what happened to Chicago last week. St. Louis got all that rain. All three weather services said, "Don't even think about going there."

Q: Texas?

A: Every weather service predicted that the storm would go right up through Texas — and that the devastation might be worse. And Texas was playing at home on Monday.

We had decisions to make on Saturday. The more we went through it, the only option we had left was Milwaukee.

(The teams played two games at Miller Park, and the third game will be made up in Houston at the end of the season, if necessary.)

I kept the third game (in Houston). We're not supposed to do that.

We're supposed to play all the games during the season. But I gave Houston the third game if it means something the following Monday.

This was a tragedy.

I frankly wanted to go to Minnesota. The Cubs would have had a lot of fans there as well. Wherever the Cubs go, that (phenomenon) takes place. But Minnesota was out. We had no choice. Between the rain and the domes in use, we had no choice.

We couldn't send them out to the West Coast. The (Astros) had to be in Florida (on Tuesday night). If I sent them to Dodger Stadium or Seattle, they would have played a double-header Monday, then flown all night to Miami.

People can sit around and second-guess. But as I go back through my notes, there were no other viable alternatives. I couldn't send them somewhere where it was going to rain.


Q: Your options would have been greater if Astros owner Drayton McLane had agreed to postpone the games before the hurricane hit.

A: A lot of people are blaming him for that. I don't think it's fair. I want to protect Drayton. He was very hopeful that the hurricane wouldn't be as severe as it was. Only Saturday morning did we realize that we couldn't stay in Houston.

[percicles]

I'm putting a $5 bounty on Scumbag Selig's head. $5 for the poster that brings me his wrapped in a Chicago Tribune newspaper.

[Uprising]

ECHO

:) Look a few posts up.

[JunkyardDwg]

We couldn't send them out to the West Coast. The (Astros) had to be in Florida (on Tuesday night). If I sent them to Dodger Stadium or Seattle, they would have played a double-header Monday, then flown all night to Miami.


Llame...it's not like they'd be going from LA to NY compared to Mil to NY...LA to Miami isn't that much longer by plane than Mil to Miami.

[msn]

Llame...it's not like they'd be going from LA to NY compared to Mil to NY...LA to Miami isn't that much longer by plane than Mil to Miami.
3-hours lost, dude. 3 hours.

[Ric]

Well I didn't ask if you were working...
the point is - there were many people working prior to, during and immediately after the hurricane including all the local network affiliates. it wasn't unprecedented and had the astros been on the road, they would have been expected to continue playing games.

I've already said that because the NFL season just started, that's gonna give them more options to reschedule...but in doing so they did have to move the Cincy game and in turn push their bye week back.
actually, they didn't move their bye "back" - they used it up on the missed game. the built-in byes allows them far more flexibility that major league baseball has in the final 2-3 weeks of its season.

if this had been november or december... the NFL would have been up against it, too.

The Astros had an off day Monday in which they could have played a double header. They could have then played the last game, if necessary, the day after the season ends.
that's fine; the DH would have been still been held in milwaukee.

Downtown had power and MMP was not damaged.
downtown was closed. let me repeat that with well-placed all caps: it was CLOSED. do you know why? because it was deemed unsafe. you can't ask teams, not to mention workers associated with the games, to ignore that and put their health at risk.

DOWNTOWN WAS CLOSED. not an option.

That one game may not even be played, and if it is, the Cubs most likely will have clinched by then and could rest their starters...even if they choose not to I don't see how it would mess with their rotation since whoever pitches in that game wouldn't have been slated to pitch in the 1st playoff game anyways.
the problem is that on september 12-14, the cubs still haven't clinched anything so they're likely playing their everyday players. on september 29, they've clinched everything and are a day away from starting the postseason so they're likely playing scrubs.

well, if the game has playoff implications (ie if the astros win, they're in) - is that fair to the mets/phillies/brewers, et al?

no. it's not.

But they have bumped it so there is precedent. My point was that the networks most likely figure postponements into their scheduling; so whether you use that travel day to make up a rained out game or because the playoffs were pushed back a day, the fact is you have that travel day to do so.
they do everything possible not to bump games; and they set the WS so that there are days built in (in addition to travel) where they can move games around.

but the bigger issue is you simply can't put your entire league on hold for one team. i know that's harsh and cold, but it's true. the world did not stop that weekend.

Well the Texans and Ravens game was originally scheduled for CBS but when it got moved to Monday it was going to be shown on ESPN 2. To my knowledge ESPN isn't part of the CBS network. I'm sure Fox could do the same. And I seem to recall Sunday Night Football having the luxury of dropping/picking up games later in the season that are less/more important in the playoff picture. Certainly it was a deal worked out with the NFL, but if the networks can work that out in one sport, I'm sure they can do it in others.
if you can show me anything to back that up, i'll graciously concede it. i'm fairly certain, though, that the plan was for local CBS stations in baltimore and houston only to carry the game. espn - which had its own (much better) game - was never in the equation. ever.

Whenever they "locked" in their schedule, it's gonna have some flexibility in it, especially when you are talking about sports...especially when you are talking about baseball. And more than likely, new fall episodes will be on hiatus until after the baseball season is over...I could be wrong but that seems to have been the case in the past.
they schedule around it (ie they have firm end dates) and, more importantly, they use the playoffs to promote their shows.

you're talking about bringing a multi-million, if not billion, dollar operation to a screeching halt because of one team.

[msn]

Ric, you make an excellent argument.

I'm still not completely convinced, and I believe MLB has some sanctimonious regulations that should have been overlooked for times like these (games should have been at Dell Diamond).

But, the absolute pity-party put on by grown multi-millionairres since the Wrigley North debacle has sucked all the remaining vitriol out of my anger at Selig.

The Astros don't deserve to go to the playoffs. For 81 games this season, they were a sub-.500 team. They're a mediocre-to-bad team, and they're throwing a toddler-esque tempter tantrum about not getting lucky.

The Sunday game in Milwaukee should never have happened. But the following four losses, the T-shirts, and whining in the press... sad. Just sad.

That's not what I want my Astros known for.

[JunkyardDwg]

3-hours lost, dude. 3 hours.

Well it all depends on their travel accomodations. I know they flew a charter out on Sunday to Milwuakee, but do baseball teams always use charters or do they normally fly commercial? Because if they fly commercial then there's a real possibility that it could have taken them the same time to get from LA to Miami that it would have taken to get from Milwaukee to Miami (LA seems to offer non-stop flights to Miami whereas Mil doesn't). But if it's the norm to charter a plane, then it would have taken 2-2 1/2hrs longer to go from LA to Miami (again assuming it's non-stop). But, here's a good question, why wasn't this proposed to the team itself? Why not let the coaches and players decide if they'd rather play 90 minutes away from Chicago in a hostile environment for a "home game" on the west coast with a longer travel time? Why did Selig immediately just toss that option away? Then again, maybe he didn't...none of the suggestions offered by the players were of stadiums out west. But again, did he give them options...did he say, you can play either in LA/Seattle or Mil, which do you prefer?

the point is - there were many people working prior to, during and immediately after the hurricane including all the local network affiliates. it wasn't unprecedented and had the astros been on the road, they would have been expected to continue playing games.

--

actually, they didn't move their bye "back" - they used it up on the missed game. the built-in byes allows them far more flexibility that major league baseball has in the final 2-3 weeks of its season.

if this had been november or december... the NFL would have been up against it, too.

--

that's fine; the DH would have been still been held in milwaukee.

--

downtown was closed. let me repeat that with well-placed all caps: it was CLOSED. do you know why? because it was deemed unsafe. you can't ask teams, not to mention workers associated with the games, to ignore that and put their health at risk.

DOWNTOWN WAS CLOSED. not an option.

--

the problem is that on september 12-14, the cubs still haven't clinched anything so they're likely playing their everyday players. on september 29, they've clinched everything and are a day away from starting the postseason so they're likely playing scrubs.

well, if the game has playoff implications (ie if the astros win, they're in) - is that fair to the mets/phillies/brewers, et al?

no. it's not.

--

they do everything possible not to bump games; and they set the WS so that there are days built in (in addition to travel) where they can move games around.

but the bigger issue is you simply can't put your entire league on hold for one team. i know that's harsh and cold, but it's true. the world did not stop that weekend.

--

if you can show me anything to back that up, i'll graciously concede it. i'm fairly certain, though, that the plan was for local CBS stations in baltimore and houston only to carry the game. espn - which had its own (much better) game - was never in the equation. ever.

--

they schedule around it (ie they have firm end dates) and, more importantly, they use the playoffs to promote their shows.

you're talking about bringing a multi-million, if not billion, dollar operation to a screeching halt because of one team.



You know honestly, if the teams were out on the road, then I would hope MLB would be gracious enough to allow them to get their families out of harm's way. And as I said before, Mayor White called for employees to stay home and for employers to not require them to come in to work, non-essential personnel that is. Does that mean everyone heeded that advice, no. But more people than not were allowed to stay home. Baseball isn't essential...they shouldn't have had to play Sunday.

And Cincy did in fact have to move their bye week to accomdate the Texans/Ravens game that got pushed back because of the storm. Not that big deal, but still not as simple as just moving the game to another date without it affecting other teams. But agreed, the NFL had far more flexibility being at the start of the season than MLB being at the end.

And I understand that downtown was closed, but I still don't buy that MMP couldn't have been used on Monday. Why was the team still lobying for it then? MMP had no damage and it had power. And it's not like MMP was in the middle of downtown, it was on the edge. I don't think the players would have had any difficulty getting to the stadium (if they played a DH on Monday...Sunday's another story). The only problem is the fans wouldn't have been able to attend. And that only becomes a problem if they're only thinking about money, instead of what's best for the players. And again, the Ravens and Texans were still scheduled to play Monday, if not for the damage to Reliant.

As for as programming, it looks like the local stations were going to play it, not ESPN. But doesn't that prove my point somewhat, that networks have some flexibility in their scheduling...especially when you're talking about sports, where you can run into overtime or face rain delays and postponements. So you begin the playoffs one day later than scheduled, you can basically make up that day using one of the scheduled "travel" days. Nothing gets changed before/after the playoffs and the sponsors keep their ad time. Now I'm not saying it's the easiest thing to do, nor is it the most realistic...my whole point is that there is precedent for it. But of course, MLB puts the networks and money ahead of its players. It's not surprising at all. Regardless, the best scenario (for all parties involved) probably would have been the DH on Monday, and I have yet to hear a compelling argument, or any argument, against it.

Honestly it's a moot point now. They were shafted; but those two games are pretty much meaningless now since they got swept in the very next series. Shoot they could have played poorly wherever they played. And while I'm not faulting them for playing uninspired ball in Milwaukee, I certainly find fault with their performance against the Marlins. And I also think they need to let it go, lest they be labeled whiners, if they're not already.

Selig made a poor decision. End of story. They shouldn't have played on Sunday and they shouldn't have played in Milwaukee. And no argument he can make will justify his decision. But still, the team had control of it's own destiny for a brief moment, and squandered it...even after losing two to the Cubs.

[Ric]

last post, i promise....

Why not let the coaches and players decide if they'd rather play 90 minutes away from Chicago in a hostile environment for a "home game" on the west coast with a longer travel time? Why did Selig immediately just toss that option away? Then again, maybe he didn't...none of the suggestions offered by the players were of stadiums out west. But again, did he give them options...did he say, you can play either in LA/Seattle or Mil, which do you prefer?
the implication has always been that drayton refused to discuss any alternatives until all parties involved were up against the wall; IOW, after ike had roared into the gulf and set its sights on galveston/houston.

plus, as much as you’ve bagged selig, the west coast added a burden probably more problematic than playing the cubs in milwaukee and he tried to spare them that. asking a tired group of players to head west on short notice and then fly all the way across the country (losing three hours in the process) is a much tougher situation to put the team in

also, drayton DID NOT handle the situation well; he was ill-prepared. he could have – and should have – moved up the thursday game and then sent the team to austin Friday morning to await word.

You know honestly, if the teams were out on the road, then I would hope MLB would be gracious enough to allow them to get their families out of harm's way.
this is going to sound more harsh than i intend but why are these families incapable of getting themselves out of harm’s way? i know many people who worked through the hurricane and their families did just fine without them. and with the astros and their families, we’re talking about people with much greater resources (ie money) than the average family.

And as I said before, Mayor White called for employees to stay home and for employers to not require them to come in to work, non-essential personnel that is. Does that mean everyone heeded that advice, no. But more people than not were allowed to stay home. Baseball isn't essential...they shouldn't have had to play Sunday.

And I understand that downtown was closed, but I still don't buy that MMP couldn't have been used on Monday. Why was the team still lobying for it then? MMP had no damage and it had power. And it's not like MMP was in the middle of downtown, it was on the edge. I don't think the players would have had any difficulty getting to the stadium (if they played a DH on Monday...Sunday's another story). The only problem is the fans wouldn't have been able to attend. And that only becomes a problem if they're only thinking about money, instead of what's best for the players. And again, the Ravens and Texans were still scheduled to play Monday, if not for the damage to Reliant.
read these two posts together, JunkyardDwg… then think about it… maybe read them again…….. in fact, read ‘em over and over until it clicks……..

As for as programming, it looks like the local stations were going to play it, not ESPN. But doesn't that prove my point somewhat, that networks have some flexibility in their scheduling...especially when you're talking about sports, where you can run into overtime or face rain delays and postponements.
there’s a sizeable difference between network affiliates (in this case, two) and networks. no one at CBS corporate is going to lose sleep if a re-run of TWO AND A HALF MEN is interrupted in baltimore…

So you begin the playoffs one day later than scheduled, you can basically make up that day using one of the scheduled "travel" days. Nothing gets changed before/after the playoffs and the sponsors keep their ad time. Now I'm not saying it's the easiest thing to do, nor is it the most realistic...my whole point is that there is precedent for it.
what precedent?!?? when has MLB baseball EVER done anything even remotely like postponing their season/postseason to accommodate one team?

Regardless, the best scenario (for all parties involved) probably would have been the DH on Monday, and I have yet to hear a compelling argument, or any argument, against it.
i don’t believe a DH one day later is an appreciably better situation – especially if you’re suggesting it should have been held in houston.

and that’s because DOWNTOWN WAS CLOSED.

Selig made a poor decision.
he made the only decision that didn’t compromise his league’s season. it wasn’t easy, i doubt he liked it, either, it’s not defensible next to the “real world” perspective of the hurricane... but every single alternative has been definitively shot down.

there was NO situation that would have been “fair” – it was lose-lose no mater what.

[msn]

And I also think they need to let it go, lest they be labeled whiners, if they're not already.
Too late. And honestly, "Puma" was well on his way to that rep *before* donning his "Bud killed us" shirt and lamenting that MLB cares more about its dollars than its players.

[JunkyardDwg]

the implication has always been that drayton refused to discuss any alternatives until all parties involved were up against the wall; IOW, after ike had roared into the gulf and set its sights on galveston/houston.

plus, as much as you’ve bagged selig, the west coast added a burden probably more problematic than playing the cubs in milwaukee and he tried to spare them that. asking a tired group of players to head west on short notice and then fly all the way across the country (losing three hours in the process) is a much tougher situation to put the team in

also, drayton DID NOT handle the situation well; he was ill-prepared. he could have – and should have – moved up the thursday game and then sent the team to austin Friday morning to await word.

I agree that Drayton didn't handle it well either. He should have been steadfast in his proposal instead of caving in and playing in Milwaukee. And he should have probably recognized sooner that this thing was heading toward Houston and made contingency plans. But again, I wonder if the players were even presented with all the available options to them. If they had the choice of playing at Dell Diamond (on a minor league field), Milwaukee, LA, Seattle, etc what would their choice be...basically instead of making a unilateral decision in the face of clear objections try to come to a suitable compromise involving the players (the guys actually playing the game). Milwaukee was NOT a compromise.


this is going to sound more harsh than i intend but why are these families incapable of getting themselves out of harm’s way? i know many people who worked through the hurricane and their families did just fine without them. and with the astros and their families, we’re talking about people with much greater resources (ie money) than the average family.

I agree that the wives and children are not without the capabilities of handling a crisis on their own. But be sure, if I was one of those players, and a major Hurricane was headed toward my family, then baseball is of the least priority to me. If that means leaving the team to be with them then so be it. Realistically, MLB would probably not postpone the games, but I'd imagine they'd be sympathetic enough to allow players to fly in their families, at least.


read these two posts together, JunkyardDwg… then think about it… maybe read them again…….. in fact, read ‘em over and over until it clicks……..

My point was that if they HAD to play on Sunday or Monday, then play as close to home or at home if possible. MMP was perfectly safe to play, despite damage to some of the high rises downtown...Why was the team still lobbying for it even after the storm had passed, after downtown was closed? Sunday the road conditions were pretty bad, but Monday the weather was just fine...a DH could have theoretically been held in MMP on Monday (despite downtown being closed...again MMP had no damage), with or without fans.


there’s a sizeable difference between network affiliates (in this case, two) and networks. no one at CBS corporate is going to lose sleep if a re-run of TWO AND A HALF MEN is interrupted in baltimore…

Again, we're talking about sports events...where baseball games can go on to the early morning hours, or get cancelled all together. Where playoff series can be four and done or go to seven games. They have to plan for those contingencies and I doubt starting the playoffs one day later (which I am not advocating as the only option Selig should have taken) would have been "impossible" for them to do. Why? Because it's happened before.


what precedent?!?? when has MLB baseball EVER done anything even remotely like postponing their season/postseason to accommodate one team?

Don't know why I have to keep repeating this, but there is precedent for MLB postponing games and pushing the start of the playoffs back. That is fact, whether the tragedy affected two teams or all teams.

Now a good argument to make here is that the Chargers still had to play during all those wildfires...and that is a good point. So I suppose the Astros should still be expected to play too...but let them play a DH on Monday...not on Sunday.


i don’t believe a DH one day later is an appreciably better situation – especially if you’re suggesting it should have been held in houston.

It may not have actually mattered...they could have still gotten plastered. But most likely they didn't get much sleep saturday night, morning or afternoon..and then you ask them to board a plan early Sunday and fly to Milwaukee. You give them that extra day and let them play a DH on Monday, they might have a shot of getting rest and assessing/dealing with their own damage enough to not have to worry about it as much when they leave.


he made the only decision that didn’t compromise his league’s season. it wasn’t easy, i doubt he liked it, either, it’s not defensible next to the “real world” perspective of the hurricane... but every single alternative has been definitively shot down.

there was NO situation that would have been “fair” – it was lose-lose no mater what.

And I completely disagree...there were other options available and he has yet provide a compelling argument against them all. And I think this sums it up best for me...

But even that won't make up for the problematic decision made by Selig. The Houston groundswell against playing in Milwaukee was started long before the two games were even moved there and Selig was plenty aware of it. He made the decision to hold the games there anyway, and now he's rightfully paying the price. Hopefully he'll know better next time.

As for the Astros, though, it's time for them to finally put this behind them, no matter how big they consider the injustice. With just a week left to play, they have some work to do if they're going to pass the Brewers and the Mets for a postseason berth that could help a struggling city.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/The-Astros-are-not-letting-go-of-this-beef-with-?urn=mlb,109538

[JunkyardDwg]

Too late. And honestly, "Puma" was well on his way to that rep *before* donning his "Bud killed us" shirt and lamenting that MLB cares more about its dollars than its players.

I think they had every right to be upset before, during and immediately following that series...but once you go to Florida and get swept, then you need to let your frustrations go. They could have lost both of those games to the Cubs and then come back and win 2 of 3 or all three against the Marlins and still have a great shot at winning the Wild Card.

But then maybe it's pent up frustration from the WS "open roof" fiasco...just play the games and try to end the season on a high note.

[msn]

I think they had every right to be upset before, during and immediately following that series...
Sure. They also have a right to whine, but that would make them whiners. And that's what we have here.

I love Lance, but he's building himself a reputation as a whiner who can hit. Sad.

I mean seriously--Hawkins designed and placed an order for 50 t-shirts, then ordered ten more! Would that they would have put that kind of effort into playing baseball during the Marlins series!

[Ric]

i lied... and hate myself for it....

But again, I wonder if the players were even presented with all the available options to them. If they had the choice of playing at Dell Diamond (on a minor league field), Milwaukee, LA, Seattle, etc what would their choice be...basically instead of making a unilateral decision in the face of clear objections try to come to a suitable compromise involving the players (the guys actually playing the game). Milwaukee was NOT a compromise.
the players don't set schedules and even if they were given a voice, keep in mind there's another team involved. i doubt the cubs wanted to play in a minor league park and i doubt the cubs wanted to turn an easy trip south in the same time zone to a tougher trip out west.

Realistically, MLB would probably not postpone the games, but I'd imagine they'd be sympathetic enough to allow players to fly in their families, at least.
it's not up to MLB to do/provide this any more than it is for your employer to do/provide the same service to you and your family.

drayton, otoh - like nearly every other business in houston - had ample time to act proactively. he did not.

MMP was perfectly safe to play, despite damage to some of the high rises downtown...Why was the team still lobbying for it even after the storm had passed, after downtown was closed? Sunday the road conditions were pretty bad, but Monday the weather was just fine...a DH could have theoretically been held in MMP on Monday (despite downtown being closed...again MMP had no damage), with or without fans.
Junkyard Dwg... do you know the #1 reason why downtown was closed? falling glass. and you're honestly suggesting players and assorted personnel should have dodged said glass (some of it falling from as high as 40 stories) to play a baseball game?... really?........

i mean, i'm trying to remain civil and respectful here... but if you honestly think conditions around MMP (incuding the weather) are the ONLY considerations.... it's a little exasperating, to be perfectly honest.

there was flooding all over houston (players don't actually live at, or even near the park); large patches of power outages (making driving at night REALLY unsafe); power lines, tress and debris down EVERYWHERE; a city-wide curfew... i mean, i could probably list a dozen+ reasons why MMP was not an option. period.

and everytime you argue it was, your position grows shakier.

I doubt starting the playoffs one day later (which I am not advocating as the only option Selig should have taken) would have been "impossible" for them to do. Why? Because it's happened before.
they have NEVER done this... save extraordinary circumstances that impacted a large, if not complete segment of its league.

Don't know why I have to keep repeating this, but there is precedent for MLB postponing games and pushing the start of the playoffs back. That is fact, whether the tragedy affected two teams or all teams.
no, there really isn't. they suspended the entire season after 9/11 (for a grand total of 8 days, IIRC), and i know they suspended seasons during the second world war.... maybe WW1, too....

but those are not in the same universe as a hurricane. the NFL didn't postpone the saints season after katrina - in fact, the saints actually lost a home game; they had to play the giants in new york instead of the superdome... hmmm, sound familiar?

that's about as close to a precedent as you're going to get. the world did not stop because of hurricane ike.

But most likely they didn't get much sleep saturday night, morning or afternoon..and then you ask them to board a plan early Sunday and fly to Milwaukee. You give them that extra day and let them play a DH on Monday, they might have a shot of getting rest and assessing/dealing with their own damage enough to not have to worry about it as much when they leave.
i doubt they slept much sunday, either, so i fail to see how playing two games on monday was appreciably better.

And I completely disagree...there were other options available and he has yet provide a compelling argument against them all.
yes, actually he has.

if they had been playing any other team, milwaukee was the BEST, most viable option. that's not even up for debate. the cubs wrinkle the situation, but since there were no better alternatives...

[Mac#5]

Heres a link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/The-Astros-are-not-letting-go-of-this-beef-with-?urn=mlb,109538) to an article a bout it

[JunkyardDwg]

if they had been playing any other team, milwaukee was the BEST, most viable option. that's not even up for debate. the cubs wrinkle the situation, but since there were no better alternatives...

The problem I and a lot of other people have is MLB made the Astros play two more road games than any other team in the leauge. Now that would have happened regardless of where they played. But they couldn't even manage to find a "neutral" site. Your right, this isn't up for debate...because Milwauke was the absolute LAST place this team should have played and there were other options available. If there was such a big chance of rain in Atlanta, then why was the Player's Union lobbying so hard for it? And why can't they play in Austin in a minor leauge park? Selig made a poor decision.

And I could care less how it inconveniences the Cubs...this was a road series for them. They were already prepared to fly out to Houston so it shouldn't inconvenience them much if it all to fly to another destination. I mean if the Astros can somehow find a plane to land in a city where all the major airports are closed, find buses and have the buses manage to find a way into MMP on Sunday (when more street flooding occurred because of continued rain), then I think you can ask the actual "road team" to either play at a minor league park in Austin for one series or come into the city on Monday (when the street flooding seemed to have subsided and thus it was probably a little easier to get to MMP) and play...without the fans if you want to keep them safe from the damages in downtown. Hell just forget about trying to play at MMP...yeah downtown was closed, the city was shut down...ok, I'll bite on that. Send them to Austin then.

There's really no point in going in circles here...neither of our opinions are gonna change on the matter...and really it's a dead issue now cause the team chose to sulk for five games instead of trying to overcome difficult circumstances. And honestly, if they miss the Wild Card, it's not gonna be because of what happened in Milwaukee; it'll be because of what happened in Florida.

[Uprising]

Heres a link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/The-Astros-are-not-letting-go-of-this-beef-with-?urn=mlb,109538) to an article a bout it
Thanks for posting that!

There were three other links in the article, one of which to this site http://www.crawfishboxes.com/ . Awesome Astros blog.

[jev5555]

I didn't find out about this until wednesday...just got power yesterday. My reaction was utter anger. I was already t'd off with getting attacked by mosquitos in an 80 degree house, no gas and Center Point taking their sweet time with the power situation. IMHO Zambrano doesn't no-hit the Stros at Minute Maid. Selig's explanation was sickening to hear. Drayton could have stood up to Bud and gone public but he chose to stay quiet. I still don't know why Drayton lets Selig dictate how his franchise is run.

[msn]

I was already t'd off with getting attacked by mosquitos in an 80 degree house, no gas and Center Point taking their sweet time with the power situation.
I didn't lose power hardly at all, so I don't know how you feel or what you went through and I don't want to be unsympathetic, but--if you had any family at all who worked for CenterPoint, you might have phrased that a bit differently.

I have friends I haven't seen since the day before Ike--and neither have their families. Four hours of sleep, get up, get back to work for 16 hours. Seven days a week.

Ike was kind of big deal, man. You can't just snap your fingers and make it all better. Even the great city of Houston.

[blathersby]

...or impeached. Or shot. Or whatever it is they do to commissioners who turn out to be dumbasses.
Well, well, well. Look who's all coming around. Bud Selig should be killed and eaten.

[msn]

Well, well, well. Look who's all coming around. Bud Selig should be killed and eaten.
I don't remember publicly defending Selig, or having an opinion one way or the other about him before, so I don't quite know what you mean.

That said, it's hard for me, as an Astros fan, to be angry at Selig anymore, after watching my Astros lay down and whine like little girls the last seven games.

They threw in the towel. They declared themselves dead with like nine or ten games remaining, and they've played like it ever since.

Berkman is in another of his Mendozian slumps, and he's pointing fingers at Selig.

The "magic number" is now two. Truth is, the magic number may as well have been zero the day the Astros decided any of their losses were Bud Selig's fault.

I didn't think I would ever accuse this team of quitting. But that is what they have done. It's sick. While we're rebuilding from Ike, they're sulking and giving half-effort while being paid millions from playing a child's game.

Lance, you poor, poor (fat, rich) thing.

[Ric]

The problem I and a lot of other people have is MLB made the Astros play two more road games than any other team in the leauge.
yes, i'm aware of that - same thing happened to the saints in 2005. that's what happens, unfortunately, when your stadium and/or city are ravaged by a natural disaster during the season.

And I could care less how it inconveniences the Cubs...this was a road series for them.
this is ultimately where the disconnect is...

as an astro fan, you champion inconveniencing everyone BUT the astros. i don't blame anyone for wanting to lessen their burden.

but selig's mandate was to minimize the impact to the rest of his league. because the truth is the world did not stop because of hurricane ike, and that included MLB.

[JunkyardDwg]

as an astro fan, you champion inconveniencing everyone BUT the astros. i don't blame anyone for wanting to lessen their burden.

It was a road series for the Cubs, not the Astros.

If it was the other way around...I wouldn't think it to be fair for the Cubs and I would have expected the Astros to play wherever they were told, because it would have been a road series for them.

Since they weren't gonna be playing at MMP, anywhere they would have gone would have been essentially a road series...but the whole desire to make it a "neutral site" is total BS when Selig made the call to play the games in Milwaukee.

[WhoMikeJames]

Selig threw out the first pitch today if you didn't know and was greeted with a thunderous applause... I wonder why?

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081005&content_id=3594216&vkey=ps2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

MILWAUKEE -- Thunderous applause from a sellout Miller Park crowd greeted Commissioner Bud Selig as he strode from the first base dugout to the mound Sunday to throw out the first pitch before Game 4 of the National League Division Series between the Brewers and Phillies.
The roars grew as the founding owner of the Brewers made his way toward the mound, and reached a crescendo when the Commissioner raised his arms above his head to acknowledge the warm reception.

"This was very emotional," Selig said afterward. "Extremely emotional."

Selig stepped to the grass in front of the mound and tossed a pitch to Brewers backup catcher Mike Rivera, who turned the inside of his glove up to catch it as the ball sailed on an arc toward the plate. With that, the crowd roared again and Selig raised both of his arms in triumph, giving high fives to current Brewers owner Mark Attanasio and others as he gratefully strode off the field.


Selig was accompanied by his wife, Sue, and Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle.

"Hank Aaron once told me that the key to this is to stand in front of the mound about 40 feet away and let it rip," Selig said. "I was intent on not bouncing it like [Bob] Uecker did yesterday."

Uecker, the club's legendary play-by-play radio announcer, threw out the first pitch Saturday before Milwaukee's first home playoff game since Game 5 of the 1982 World Series. The Brewers won, 4-1, narrowing the Phillies' lead in the best-of-five series to 2-1.

Selig said he wasn't exactly nervous on Sunday, but the adrenaline certainly was pumping.

"It's something to be out there and do that in front of all these people," he said. "It was a terrific experience."

Selig attended both Brewers home playoff games this weekend and said he's been moved by the response of fans as he's walked around the park that opened in 2001. Selig was one of two people to toss out the first pitch during Miller Park's inaugural opener that season. The other was President George W. Bush, a former managing general partner of the Texas Rangers, who had been elected to the nation's highest office only five months earlier.

Immediately before throwing out the first pitch, Selig announced that he would be donating 1000 Brewers Wildcard t-shirts to victims of hurricane Ike in Houston, you know to show his sympathy. Hence the cheering he received in Milwaukee.

[magnetik]

HAHAHA SELIG AND THE BREWERS GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED IN THE END. KARMA IS A BITCH. same for the Cubs