Olympics: 'Ethnic' children exposed as fakes in opening ceremony

[CometsWin]

More fakery at the Olympics.

Beijing Olympics: 'Ethnic' children exposed as fakes in opening ceremony

Another section of the Beijing Olympics opening ceremony has been exposed as faked - the children supposedly representing the country's 56 ethnic groups were in fact all from the same one, the majority Han Chinese race.

By Richard Spencer in Beijing
Last Updated: 11:04AM BST 15 Aug 2008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2561979/Beijing-Olympics-Ethnic-children-exposed-as-fakes-in-opening-ceremony.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00790/china-ethnic-olympi_790981c.jpg

The children accompanied the soldiers carrying in the national flag at the most solemn moment of the ceremony.

They were dressed in costumes associated with the country's ethnic minorities, including those from troubled areas such as Tibet and the muslim province of Xinjiang. Such displays of "national unity" are a compulsory part of any major state occasion.

But the children were all from the Han Chinese majority, which makes up more than 90 per cent of the population and is culturally and politically dominant, according to an official with the cultural troupe from which they were selected.

"I assume they think the kids were very natural looking and nice," Yuan Zhifeng, deputy director of the Galaxy Children's Art Troupe said.

The official guide to the opening ceremony said that the children did not just represent but "came from" China's ethnic groups.

"Fifty-six children from 56 Chinese ethnic groups cluster around the Chinese national flag, representing the 56 ethnic groups," it said.

This point was put to Wang Wei, executive vice-president of the Beijing organising committee at a press conference today.

"I think you are being very meticulous," he said. He said it was "traditional" to use dancers from other ethnic groups in this way.

"I would argue it is normal for dancers, performers, to be dressed in other races' clothes," he said. "I don't know exactly where these performers are from."

The initial triumph of the opening ceremony has already been clouded by revelations that the little girl who sand "Hymn to the Motherland", a patriotic Chinese anthem, was lip-synching to the pre-recorded voice of another girl who had been told she was not pretty enough to appear. The "footprint fireworks" shown on television were also pre-recorded and digitally enhanced.

The discovery that the children representing ethnic groups as diverse as Mongolians and members of the Li group from the south-western mountains were all in fact Han will hardly be noticed in China, where such practices are normal.

Nevertheless it is a sign of how sensitive ethnic relations in China are. At national Communist Party and state congresses, while the Han Chinese delegates all wear suits, carefully chosen members of ethnic minorities are told to wear traditional costume.

"Minority dances" are a regular part of state-sponsored entertainments, with performers coming from all over the country without having to belong to the relevant group.

[Fatty FatBastard]

Uh oh. We all know what this means for China:

(NSFW.)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sWS-FoXbjVI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sWS-FoXbjVI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I'm not worried. My boy is almost 10, and he's close to:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9fWvub_WBho&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9fWvub_WBho&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Screw you, MattJ. About time you come up with a new one...

[StaticC4]

with a population of 93% Han, I don't think China could find all 56 minorities.It was just a show not a Chinese UN meeting..

[CometsWin]

with a population of 93% Han, I don't think China could find all 56 minorities.It was just a show not a Chinese UN meeting..


Hey, if the US dressed up white people as Native Americans and African-Americans to show our ethnic diversity... uh yeah.

[meh]

Not really surprised that they did this, but... how did these things leak out like this? I guess the Chinese government's censorship just isn't what it used to be.

[KingCheetah]

DARK SHADOW

[SamFisher]

How appropriate and what a perfect metaphor for China's marginalization of its minority populace. The only good Tibetan is a fake one!

Maybe they can knock down the Potala Palace and replace it with "the Potala Palace Experience"-themed Casino.

[bucket]

Hey, if the US dressed up white people as Native Americans and African-Americans to show our ethnic diversity... uh yeah.

"Ethnic", not "racial".

I don't think this is a big deal. I was pretty upset by the thing about the girl getting booted, but this seems nitpicky. All the kids did was walk in a straight line across the stadium in costumes, and I never thought they actually came from each group.

[deepblue]

Its just a show, no different than having a Japanese actor play a Chinese in a movie. Some people will complain about anything.

[Mulder]

"Ethnic", not "racial".

I don't think this is a big deal. I was pretty upset by the thing about the girl getting booted, but this seems nitpicky. All the kids did was walk in a straight line across the stadium in costumes, and I never thought they actually came from each group.


OK,

Hey Irish guys! At the next St. Patty's day parade we are going to replace all the Irish guys with British guys cuz Irish guys are hard to find.

Same thing with you Puerto Ricans. We'll just use Mexicans. Same thing right?

Jamaican? Regular old black people will accomplish the same feel...

:eek:

[dumbartonbass]

Its just a show, no different than having a Japanese actor play a Chinese in a movie. Some people will complain about anything.

Seriously. They put on a great show, what else can you ask for? London knows it will have to work very hard to equal that in 2012.

[yuantian]

they should just put me in it. or i should say, i don't care if they used a Han for a Tujia. :) i doubt all 56 kids are 100% Han anyways. people are pretty mixed these days.

[Lil Pun]

This reminded me of the Chris Rock joke about Native Americans and Puerto Ricans.

"That ain't Pocahontas, that's Jennifer Lopez!"

LOL! :D

[Bandwagoner]

Im seriously tired of people talking about the opening ceremony.


It was a show and it was pretty awesome. Next thing you know the story will come out about Li Ning was actually on wires and didn;t really fly around the Bird's Nest.

[rocketsjudoka]

It was a show and it was pretty awesome. Next thing you know the story will come out about Li Ning was actually on wires and didn;t really fly around the Bird's Nest.

Say it aint so!


I agree this is nitpicking. This was a show and I expect everything to be about as accurate and as real as a superbowl halftime show.

[B-Bob]

It was a show and it was pretty awesome. Next thing you know the story will come out about Li Ning was actually on wires and didn;t really fly around the Bird's Nest.

Amen. The whole coverage has been so China-negative. Not on human rights, etc, but on these ridiculous little details. NPR aired a piece on how their reporter couldn't find a hotdog at the athletic events. Oh Noes!?

Next on US media: Do they fold their napkins properly in "weird" China?

Ugh. It's just starting to reek of jealousy that China is currently enjoying what we did in the late 1940's and 1950's.

[rocketsjudoka]

OK,

Hey Irish guys! At the next St. Patty's day parade we are going to replace all the Irish guys with British guys cuz Irish guys are hard to find.

You know that Danny Boy was written by an Englishman?

[Mr. Clutch]

What matters is how cute they are, not their race. Look beyond the color of the skin.

[SamFisher]

It seems like it's not a big deal, and it's not, but it's symbolic of the way China treats its minorities by attempting to overwhelm and Han-ify them.

PRC government likes to talk about how it loves its minorities, but its actions are designed to dilute and absorb them. Basically it wants them to be quiet, smile, and be good little subjugated peoples who eventually go away - accordingly it would much rather have Al Jolson in its ceremony than Louis Armstrong.

Now here come the netizens, better work on my bot-jammers and get out my dragon killer sword.

[myotuneric]

enough is enough

[KingCheetah]

Next on US media: Do they fold their napkins properly in "weird" China?

Napkin folding hadn't even crossed my mind -- thank-you B-bob !

http://i34.tinypic.com/nxrvqe.jpg

NSFW ~ bizarre napkin fold

:eek:

[fadeaway]

enough is enough

....and it's time for a change!

[CometsWin]

Why would they lie about it? It seems appearances are more important than authenticity. Apparently this is a regular practice in China, if you read the bottom of the article. You can't trump your ethnic diversity while at the same time faking it all and importing Hans to overrun the Tibetans and Uighurs to stifle dissent. This is the same stuff that the Soviets have done to shut people up. Move in a bunch of Russians to overrun the local ethnic populations.

[DaDakota]

Come on, who cares...really?

DD

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

Come on, who cares...really?

DD


I think it's more comical than anything else. I mean, why would the program say it was different ethnities when there were in fact not? That's certainly a bit spurious and deserves a call out.

As for making the girls strip to take their measurements, and forcing people to wear diapers because they were allowed bathroom breaks - i think these things are germane.

The rest of the stuff doesn't matter - but I mean, c'mon, the Olympics are supposed to be a humanistic cause - how can forcing people to wear diapers so they don't take toilet breaks humane? Maybe I am missing something here, but I am a bit disturbed about that.

Granted, it was a great show though.

[Rockza]

Come on, who cares...really?

DD

Seriously.. but at the same time, people who want to portray that Chinese failed at the Olympics is who cares about all these controversies. Did anyone think it's probably a language things? To say that 56 children represents different ethnic groups does not mean they are from there. Maybe they were not clear enough in the ceremony guide. It's not hard for them to bring children to Beijing obviously.

As for the lip synching, that was a wrong decision made by one stupid guy. At the end it was the Chinese music director who came out because he disagreed with that decision.

They talk about communist propoganda, but this western media has THE most negative coverage of an Olympics that I have ever seen. People just don't realize the propoganda that their own media spew.

NBC showed young children in China training and portrayed it very negatively, while that same night they showed equally young girls training with Shawn Johnson but of course in a very positive light. What the Chinese do is mechanical/emotionless/slave labor, while the same case is portrayed as sacrifice for American athletes.

The media blast China for spending so much on the Olympics, the reality is they only spent little more than double of Athens and to think China is the fourth largest economy. Don't get me started on the smog coverage prior to the Olympics. Ridiculous.

[rocketsjudoka]

I think it's more comical than anything else. I mean, why would the program say it was different ethnities when there were in fact not? That's certainly a bit spurious and deserves a call out.

As for making the girls strip to take their measurements, and forcing people to wear diapers because they were allowed bathroom breaks - i think these things are germane.

The rest of the stuff doesn't matter - but I mean, c'mon, the Olympics are supposed to be a humanistic cause - how can forcing people to wear diapers so they don't take toilet breaks humane? Maybe I am missing something here, but I am a bit disturbed about that.

Granted, it was a great show though.

Astronauts and fighter pilots are forced to wear diapers so obviously NASA and the air force isn't humane either.

[wizkid83]

I remember making the comment that most of the kids looked Han durring the ceremony, now I know why. I actually thought they just tried to grab most Han looking kids for the show :D .

[UberDork]

I remember making the comment that most of the kids looked Han durring the ceremony, now I know why. I actually thought they just tried to grab most Han looking kids for the show :D .

During NBC's airing of the opening ceremony, Bob Costas and Matt Lauer mentioned that the organizers picked children from local art schools in Beijing.

The opening ceremony was entertainment, and I was thoroughly entertained. That was the organizers' job, and as far as I'm concerned it was mission accomplished for the organizers. Awesome show. I could care less about the tiny details.

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

Astronauts and fighter pilots are forced to wear diapers so obviously NASA and the air force isn't humane either.

i think there's a slight difference between flying an aircraft and moving a scroll at the opening ceremony.

you'd think they'd give the guys a chance to have bathroom breaks. it's not like they're in space

[yeo]

Breaking news: The so-called "Confucian disciples" at the opening ceremonies were actually played by modern actors! And that blue globe, that was not really the Earth you know. Gasp! :eek:

[Bandwagoner]

NBC showed young children in China training and portrayed it very negatively, while that same night they showed equally young girls training with Shawn Johnson but of course in a very positive light. What the Chinese do is mechanical/emotionless/slave labor, while the same case is portrayed as sacrifice for American athletes.

.
I have to disagree with you here. NBC is showing the Olympics in an extremely positive light. They have shown no controversy and the only poltical thing is the Georgian and Russian who are big friends even with the war.

I think the other media are seeing that this is the most popular Olympics in recent history and trying to get any Olympic story out there possible.

[michecon]

Wow, they were wearing costumes, how could I not know? The way they chanted Confucius Analects wasn't really the way they did it in wharever-year-bc, I'm shocked.

[wnes]

Given that most Han-Chinese nowadays are the offspring of extensive intermarriages between Han and other minorities in the early days, the kids performing in the opening ceremony are ethnic minorities by the good ol' one-drop blood rule.

So what's the fuss?

And that blue globe, that was not really the Earth you know.

Did you just say Earth? Of course, Earth rules, and Comets suck! :)

[myotuneric]

....and it's time for a change!

yeah, a change in americans' world view perhaps

[Fijiman]

Come on, who cares...really?

DD

If you're a member of one of those minority groups, you might care quite a bit. I'm half Karen, which is one of the minority groups in Burma (Myanmar) and many of my relatives and friends have been the target of persecution by the government there. If I were to see a Burmese propaganda event that showed a "Native Karen" carrying the Burmese flag as a sign of "unity" (aka obedience to the government that is slowly wiping out my ethnic group) , I know I'd be quite upset. Until you've been in the same shoes (I'm talking ethnic cleansing, government persecution, etc, not just getting called some racial slur by some guy on the street), it's hard to understand just how big a deal something like this can be.

[SamFisher]

Given that most Han-Chinese nowadays are the offspring of extensive intermarriages between Han and other minorities in the early days, the kids performing in the opening ceremony are ethnic minorities by the good ol' one-drop blood rule.


LOL - not sure what minority regions of China you've been hanging out in, prolly none, but the ones that I've been too, it appeared that very few Han inheritempresarios were pulling Thomas Jefferson-Sally Hemmings relationships.

Hell most Hans are afraid of Uighurs and are too timid to approach them - with good reason, they carry knives.

[SamFisher]

If you're a member of one of those minority groups, you might care quite a bit. I'm half Karen, which is one of the minority groups in Burma (Myanmar) and many of my relatives and friends have been the target of persecution by the government there. If I were to see a Burmese propaganda event that showed a "Native Karen" carrying the Burmese flag as a sign of "unity" (aka obedience to the government that is slowly wiping out my ethnic group) , I know I'd be quite upset. Until you've been in the same shoes (I'm talking ethnic cleansing, government persecution, etc, not just getting called some racial slur by some guy on the street), it's hard to understand just how big a deal something like this can be.
I agree - I am a supporter of the Free Burma Rangers.

[meh]

LOL - not sure what minority regions of China you've been hanging out in, prolly none, but the ones that I've been too, it appeared that very few Han inheritempresarios were pulling Thomas Jefferson-Sally Hemmings relationships.

Hell most Hans are afraid of Uighurs and are too timid to approach them - with good reason, they carry knives.

Considering the US has a similar situation with the Native Americans, I'm not sure how you can just make this assumption.

The Hans don't go into these these minority tribes. Why would they? Just as white people don't hang out on reservations unless they're in a casino.

It's the other way around. That these ethnic minorities go into Han-dominated cities and and intermingle.

That said, I'm pretty sure even the "one-drop of blood rule" was applied here. They're not chosen because they have some minority blood, but for their looks and acting skills.

[meh]

That said, I'm pretty sure even the "one-drop of blood rule" was not applied here. They're not chosen because they have some minority blood, but for their looks and acting skills.

edited

[wnes]

LOL - not sure what minority regions of China you've been hanging out in, prolly none, but the ones that I've been too, it appeared that very few Han inheritempresarios were pulling Thomas Jefferson-Sally Hemmings relationships.

Han-Uighur relation and inter-ethnic marriage in greater China has existed for more than 2000 years. Imperial envoy Zhang Qian in the Han Dynasty, for instance, married a Xiongnu (ancestor to modern day Uighur) wife during his mission to the western region.

Hell most Hans are afraid of Uighurs and are too timid to approach them - with good reason, they carry knives.

Sammy, you can thank PRC's minority policy for allowing Uighurs to carry knives freely, in a way to keep their barbaric tradition. But considering that Han (Wei Qing, Huo Qubing, Ban Chao during the Han Dynasty, and Sheng Shicai of Republic of China as of late) routinely kicked Xiongnu/Uighurs' ass when they needed to, I wouldn't exactly say Hans are afraid of Uhigurs.

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

You have to admit there's a deep irony here though. China is trying to show off it's cultural diversity by using actors of all the same ethnic background????

Considering the human rights record, it's a bit Orwellian in my opinion.

[Jugdish]

FFB has a kid? Holy Alimony!

[Bandwagoner]

You have to admit there's a deep irony here though. China is trying to show off it's cultural diversity by using actors of all the same ethnic background????

Considering the human rights record, it's a bit Orwellian in my opinion.
I think the idea was to incorporate all of them in the celebration. They were a symbol

[tracy hong]

I think it's more comical than anything else. I mean, why would the program say it was different ethnities when there were in fact not? That's certainly a bit spurious and deserves a call out.

As for making the girls strip to take their measurements, and forcing people to wear diapers because they were allowed bathroom breaks - i think these things are germane.

The rest of the stuff doesn't matter - but I mean, c'mon, the Olympics are supposed to be a humanistic cause - how can forcing people to wear diapers so they don't take toilet breaks humane? Maybe I am missing something here, but I am a bit disturbed about that.

Granted, it was a great show though.


I really haven't bought into the claime that the soliders were forced to wear diapers under the huge scroll. That article mentioned they had to stay under the scroll for up to seven hours. However, didn't the whole opening ceremony just last a little more than 4 hours???? What's the point of hidding under the scroll for 7 hours?

As for the stripping, i think the girls were not naked at the measurement, but with their underpants and bras on. In China, high school girls are required to take off their clothes, leaving only underwears to see whether they have some physical abnormalities as part of the physical examination for national entrance examination.

[tracy hong]

Since everything about China now(and perhas afterwards?) is under intense scrutiny from media, the margin for error is pretty small. It's so easy to find fault with an unpopular regime.

With all those scrupulous and tremendous efforts put into the preparation for the Olympic game, in some sense, China (or maybe the government, CCP?)sitll hasn't prepared well. From tibet riots, to global torch relay, now to the opening ceremony, there have been so much unexpected issues ever since. Those things were never part of our visions for the game.

International media gives China( this time, both chinese people and CCP) as much glorification as humiliation during the whole process.

Maybe to China, that's part of the pain for being open up and trying to intergrate into a different system.

If that's what makes a nation great and mature, then be it. Let's continue to talke and conmunicate, however irritate it would be for a longer time than we'd like.

[wizkid83]

i think there's a slight difference between flying an aircraft and moving a scroll at the opening ceremony.

you'd think they'd give the guys a chance to have bathroom breaks. it's not like they're in space

I'm pretty sure the people that get to performed at the Olympic opening ceremonies "op-in". To most Chinese, it would be a honor to perform there and they know it comes with the territory. Besides, diapers are fairly sanitary, it aint like they're in India or something (Quoting Russell Peteres "India smells like s---". ;) )

http://kendrive.blog.co.uk/2008/07/08/they-pay-you-to-use-the-public-toilet-4418457

[nyquil82]

I remember seeing this on tv and noticing that none of those kids looked like minorities at all, I was thinking they should have done at the very least a better job than that.

However, I think it's short sighted to blame the Chinese government on the show, they funded it but Zhang Yimou and his crew oversaw all the elements and chose to get stand-ins.

The government runs these minority things all over the country all the time and never has a problem getting real minorities to dress up in their clothing together for photo-ops. I'm gonna have to blame this one on the director.

BTW, Uighur food is my favorite, it's the one food missing in NYC.

[SamFisher]

Sammy, you can thank PRC's minority policy for allowing Uighurs to carry knives freely, in a way to keep their barbaric tradition. .
....and the truth comes out. China regards its subjects as "barbarians"

Hey, wnes, the 20th century called, it wanted to tell you that labeling minorities as barbarians is no longer acceptable. :)

[B-Bob]

Sammy, you can thank PRC's minority policy for allowing Uighurs to carry knives freely, in a way to keep their barbaric tradition.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/adc/10102058A~Arnold-Schwarzenegger-Conan-the-Barbarian-Posters.jpg

If only the PRC would incorporate the Uighurs into their Olympic team, their field and wrestling results would dramatically improve.

[Sweet Lou 4 2]

I'm pretty sure the people that get to performed at the Olympic opening ceremonies "op-in". To most Chinese, it would be a honor to perform there and they know it comes with the territory. Besides, diapers are fairly sanitary, it aint like they're in India or something (Quoting Russell Peteres "India smells like s---". ;) )

http://kendrive.blog.co.uk/2008/07/08/they-pay-you-to-use-the-public-toilet-4418457

they were soldiers not volunteers. and i don't think they performed, they basically worked as slaves underneath to move the scroll.

[wizkid83]

they were soldiers not volunteers. and i don't think they performed, they basically worked as slaves underneath to move the scroll.

My bad, but then if they were soldiers ..... meh. It's the millitary, I'm sure people in service goes through worse than that. This is a question for other Chinese posters, is the army in Mainland China a "volunteer" army like the U.S. or is it like Israel, Korea, and Taiwan where there are a required service?

[meh]

My bad, but then if they were soldiers ..... meh. It's the millitary, I'm sure people in service goes through worse than that. This is a question for other Chinese posters, is the army in Mainland China a "volunteer" army like the U.S. or is it like Israel, Korea, and Taiwan where there are a required service?

It's a volunteer army. But the perks are supposedly real good. A family friend is an officer in the army. His car, which has a special license plate, is literally above the law... as in the police has no authority to do anything to it. You can illegally park, speed, whatever.

In a corrupt country, people in power gets lots of perks. And when you have almost all the guns in the country, you tend to have a lot of power.

[mozart123]

This comes as no surprise, considering China's marginalization of its ethnic minorities.

[wnes]

....and the truth comes out. China regards its subjects as "barbarians"

Hey, wnes, the 20th century called, it wanted to tell you that labeling minorities as barbarians is no longer acceptable. :)

Uh-umm, Sammy, I only speak for myself.

Being more of an advocate in equal opportunity, I'd do away with some of the policies catering specifically to certain ethnic minorities if I were to decide. Not allowing unruly citizens to carry knives in places where they can jeopardize public safety would be one.

In the U.S., guns are permitted only in hunting and, more rarely, self defense, but not in settling disputes. Can you imagine what would it be like if those road rages end up in a wild west style with all conflicting parties pulling their guns from the glove boxes and shooting at each other?

Likewise, if you got into a verbal fight in a Beijing bar with some hotblooded knife-carrying patriotic Uighur dude who doesn't particular like your splittism bullcrap, I'd cringe at the thought of you getting skinned alive (believe me, that could happen).

Overall, though, I can see PRC has been doing quite an amicable job in discouraging the continuation of barbaric traditions widely practiced by some ethnic minorities while preserving the essence of their cultures.

[wnes]

If only the PRC would incorporate the Uighurs into their Olympic team, their field and wrestling results would dramatically improve.

Not so sure about Uighurs, but Mongolians are believed to be quite good at wrestling. I think China did send athletes from Inner Mongolia to compete in some previous Olympic wrestling competitions, disappointing results notwithstanding.

Heck, if there were a high-altitude mountain climbing event in Winter Olympics, PRC would not hesitate for a second to field a team with mostly Tibetan mountain climbers to compete in the event.

[SamFisher]

Heck, if there were a high-altitude mountain climbing event in Winter Olympics, PRC would not hesitate for a second to field a team with mostly Tibetan mountain climbers to compete in the event.
PRC would probably hesitate because there arent very many of them, if any.

The indigenous climbing guides and porters, even for expeditions in China, are all Sherpas from Nepal which has had a climbing industry for years. The Tibet side has very little climbing industry.

[SamFisher]

Likewise, if you got into a verbal fight in a Beijing bar with some hotblooded knife-carrying patriotic Uighur dude who doesn't particular like your splittism bullcrap, I'd cringe at the thought of you getting skinned alive (believe me, that could happen).


First off, this wouldn't happen now because Uighurs were deported from Beijing during the Olympics (and aren't supposed to be in bars anyway since they aren't supposed to drink).

Second - the ones I have talked to said they saw themselves as Uighurs first and not as Chinese.

Third - I saw nobody skinned alive after spending a week in occupied Turkestan, but you know I wasn't really looking .

[wnes]

First off, this wouldn't happen now because Uighurs were deported from Beijing during the Olympics (and aren't supposed to be in bars anyway since they aren't supposed to drink).

That is as much credible as the "no blacks are allowed in Beijing bars during the Olympics" tabloid junk posted by some idiot not long ago. How does that turn out? Nobody can follow it up?

Second - the ones I have talked to said they saw themselves as Uighurs first and not as Chinese.

The ones you talked to ... LOL

How did they converse with you? Like, "me freedom fighter ... me hate Han Chinese ... me love new york lawyer?" :confused:

Third - I saw nobody skinned alive after spending a week in occupied Turkestan, but you know I wasn't really looking .

As a cheerleader for East Turkestan Islamic Movement, you sure would feel like home when you were in their safe houses. But you never know when their bomb making technique goes awry ...

[wnes]

PRC would probably hesitate because there arent very many of them, if any.

The indigenous climbing guides and porters, even for expeditions in China, are all Sherpas from Nepal which has had a climbing industry for years. The Tibet side has very little climbing industry.

The northeast route to the Mount Everest from the Chinese side is the more difficult one. China has since the 1950's attempted many successful expeditions to reach the peak. Every one of those team fielded Tibetan-Chinese, who in many occasions were in the majority. In the recent torch relay on Mount Everest, the team was captained by a Tibetan-Chinese. Your little diatribe has no basis, as usual.

[SamFisher]

How did they converse with you? Like, "me freedom fighter ... me hate Han Chinese ... me love new york lawyer?" :confused:

Two kids studying english in the main square in front of the main square in Kashgar eager to practice their english struck up a conversatin, showed me around and for the next few days I taught several sessions of their English class in Kashgar as their impromptu guest host - they weren't skinning people alive or raiding and pillaging settlements that I could observe.


The northeast route to the Mount Everest from the Chinese side is the more difficult one. China has since the 1950's attempted many successful expeditions to reach the peak. Every one of those team fielded Tibetan-Chinese, who in many occasions were in the majority. In the recent torch relay on Mount Everest, the team was captained by a Tibetan-Chinese. Your little diatribe has no basis, as usual

The trekking expeditions that I have been on on that side of the mountain have used exclusively Nepali Sherpa camp staff- as do most high altitude moutnaineering expeditions. How many have you been on and what was the nationality of your porter/sirdar?

[SamFisher]

That is as much credible as the "no blacks are allowed in Beijing bars during the Olympics" tabloid junk posted by some idiot not long ago. How does that turn out? Nobody can follow it up?

busted:

Beijing busy welcoming the world as it turns away its ethnic minorities
Published 07/18/2008 | Featured Articles and Highlights


http://www.uhrp.org/articles/1207/1/Beijing-busy-welcoming-the-world-as-it-turns-away-its-ethnic-minorities-/index.html

With their infant daughter in their arms, Nuer and Guli visited a dozen hotels in Beijing in late May, searching desperately for a place to stay.
Most of the hotel clerks, mistaking them for foreigners, welcomed them and offered a room. But when the couple pulled out their identity cards, the clerks realized they were Muslim Uyghurs from China. And then the response was always the same: Sorry, no room at the inn.

Turned away by every hotel, the family rented an old car for $20 a day and slept in it for two nights. The conditions were so poor that their two-month-old baby became sick. Finally, they abandoned the car and begged to stay at a cousin's overcrowded apartment.

Today the couple have given up. They are packing their bags and getting ready to leave Beijing this month, joining the thousands of other Uyghurs, Tibetans and Mongolians who are fleeing under police pressure in the final weeks before the Olympics.

Ethnic minorities, migrant workers, petitioners and social activists are among the key targets of the Chinese security crackdown that has swept through Beijing in recent months. Now, with the Olympics just three weeks away, many of the targeted groups are making their final preparations to leave.

Some have little choice - they are being forcibly expelled by Chinese police. A British woman of Tibetan descent, Dechen Pemba, was deported from China last week. The 30-year-old teacher had lived in Beijing for two years and had a valid visa to work in China, but she was escorted to Beijing airport by a group of security agents who forced her onto an airplane with no explanation. The government later accused her of belonging to the Tibetan Youth Congress and engaging in "separatist activities" - charges that she strongly denied.

Tibetans and Mongolians are under pressure to leave Beijing because they are seen as potential Olympic troublemakers. Many people in Tibet and Inner Mongolia want greater autonomy and religious freedom for their regions of China. A wave of protests swept through the Tibetan regions this spring, sparking a harsh crackdown from Chinese authorities.

The Uyghurs are under greater pressure than any other ethnic minority because the government sees them not only as potential protesters but also as potential terrorists. The entire Uyghur population is often seen as a security threat, even though only a tiny fraction have been involved in radical or separatist activities.

Until recently, Beijing was home to dozens of Uyghur restaurants, specializing in the popular grilled food of their Muslim homeland, Xinjiang, in the remote northwest of China. But most have been forced to close over the past two years as the security clampdown has tightened.

Nuer, who has worked in restaurants in Beijing for most of the past 15 years, estimates that 4,000 to 5,000 Uyghurs have been detained or expelled from Beijing as the city prepares for the Olympics. His estimate is impossible to verify, but a recent survey confirmed that many Beijing hotels are refusing to rent rooms to Uyghurs.

Nuer started his own restaurant in 2005, employing a half-dozen Uyghurs to prepare Xinjiang-style food. But last year, he said, the police ordered him to shut down the restaurant and send all of his employees back to Xinjiang because of the approaching Olympics.

He worked for a few months at a friend's restaurant, grilling mutton on the sidewalk. But one day he arrived at the restaurant to find that his grill had disappeared in the night. Since then, he has been unable to find work in Beijing.

"Since 2006, there are fewer and fewer Xinjiang restaurants," he said. "The police come in and just take people away without any explanation, which frightens us very much."

Nuer himself has been detained five times by the police in the past two years. "They never explain why they are taking me to the police station. They search me and then they release me without filing any charges against me."

His wife, Guli, says she was one of 18 Uyghurs who were taken into police custody after gathering for a Muslim festival in Beijing last year. They were held at a police station for three days and then expelled from the city and forced to go back to Xinjiang, she said.

She returned to Beijing in May to be with her husband. But because of the impossibility of finding a hotel room or any other place to live, they are now packing for the long journey back to Xinjiang. They didn't want their surnames used for fear of getting into more trouble.

In the past, Nuer was often obliged to sleep on the floors of Internet cafés or saunas because he had nowhere else to stay. Now they are staying at their cousin's apartment, but the landlord has ordered them to leave.

"We feel very bad about this," Guli said. "We are Chinese, too, so why don't they allow us to stay in a hotel? When the Han Chinese people come to Xinjiang to work or travel, when do we ever refuse them?"

[MFW]

I'm wondering Sammy, if you'd care to post a primary sourced article not based on the likes of uhrp.org, phayul, tibet.org et al.

But then again, we all know that those are the most objective sources don't we...

[SamFisher]

I'm wondering Sammy, if you'd care to post a primary sourced article not based on the likes of uhrp.org, phayul, tibet.org et al.

But then again, we all know that those are the most objective sources don't we...
It's reprinted from Canada's Globe and Mail...one of their largest daily newspapers, and widely considered to be the "Paper of Record" - as in the most thorough and reliable daily there.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM.20080718.w china18%2FBNStory%2FInternational%2Fhome&ord=143418562&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

Nice detective work there Charlie Chan.

[KingCheetah]

busted

http://i35.tinypic.com/206nbr6.jpg

[MFW]

It's reprinted from Canada's Globe and Mail...one of their largest daily newspapers, and widely considered to be the "Paper of Record" - as in the most thorough and reliable daily there.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM.20080718.w china18%2FBNStory%2FInternational%2Fhome&ord=143418562&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

Nice detective work there Charlie Chan.

Sorry to go over your head Sammy (as usual), but I guess you are too dumb to know what primary source means.

[SamFisher]

Sorry to go over your head Sammy (as usual), but I guess you are too dumb to know what primary source means.


"primary sourced article not based on the likes of uhrp.org, phayul, tibet.org et al."

I did not see a single reference to those sites in the text of the Globe and Mail article, did you?

Please find a single reference to those sites in the Globe and Mail article.

Maybe the "Edit-Find" command on my web browser is broken :confused:

Please direct me to the place in the Globe and Mail article that is "based on the likes of " those sites you mentioned.

Thanks. I'm going out for a bit so have a response to me by 10 pm eastern.

[wnes]

busted:

Beijing busy welcoming the world as it turns away its ethnic minorities
Published 07/18/2008 | Featured Articles and Highlights

http://www.uhrp.org/articles/1207/1/Beijing-busy-welcoming-the-world-as-it-turns-away-its-ethnic-minorities-/index.html


First of all, look, Sammy, as the Uighur interviewees in the article call themselves Chinese even when they were under harsh duress, doesn't it seem odd that you could only meet in Xinjiang Uighurs who don't see themselves Chinese? Busted?

Second, since the Uighur subjects fit perfectly the definition of migrant workers, I don't see how it can claim the forced leave in preparation for the Olympics is a race-specific governmental policy that targets Uighurs. I am sure the situation sucks for those who are affected, but I am afraid the alternatives are probably worse for the Olympic host, which includes, of course, those very Uighur-Chinese.

As for the hotels that rejected the Uighurs, you can't really blame them, either. Earlier this year, some foreign-trained Uighur female passenger attempted to blow up an airplane in the mid air on its way to Beijing from Urumqi, only to be foiled by vigilant flight attendants. As I learned from this post of yours (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=3807360#post3807360), I have little doubt you would be cheering for the Uighur martyr, but you should realize 99.99*% of Chinese don't share your view and your affection for anti-China terrorists.

Regardless, Sammy, the sixty-four thousand dollar question remains, what is with the "no blacks are allowed in bars in Beijing during the Olympics" ban? :confused:

[wnes]

Two kids studying english in the main square in front of the main square in Kashgar eager to practice their english struck up a conversatin, showed me around and for the next few days I taught several sessions of their English class in Kashgar as their impromptu guest host - they weren't skinning people alive or raiding and pillaging settlements that I could observe.

Oh Sammy the Lawyer all of a sudden became an English tutor to future freedom fighters? Do tell us how you polluted the minds of these Uighur kids in your impromptu class, to blow up a Han-Chinese target and have a chance to sex virgin western chicks in heaven? :confused:

The trekking expeditions that I have been on on that side of the mountain have used exclusively Nepali Sherpa camp staff- as do most high altitude moutnaineering expeditions. How many have you been on and what was the nationality of your porter/sirdar?

Your inability to stay on topic typifies a lousy lawyer, as the above trivialities have nada to do with the hypothetical scenario in discussion.

Since Tibetan-Chinese members were prominently featured in every high-altitude mountain climbing expedition PRC has attempted, there is no reason to believe China would field a team of athletes devoid of Tibetan ethnicity to compete in the event of such nature in winter Olympics. Even if your claim that Nepalis are the best high-altitude mountain climbers in the world is true, they cannot possibly be on team China in Olympics. Simple as that.

[rocketsjudoka]

Second, since the Uighur subjects fit perfectly the definition of migrant workers, I don't see how it can claim the forced leave in preparation for the Olympics is a race-specific governmental policy that targets Uighurs. I am sure the situation sucks for those who are affected, but I am afraid the alternatives are probably worse for the Olympic host, which includes, of course, those very Uighur-Chinese.

Except that the article doesn't say that they were migrant workers and even says that hotels were willing to give them rooms until they found out they were ethnically Uighar. Now whether they identify their nationality with the PRC is another thing but the fact that their identity cards indicate they are Uighar and they were turned away on that basis shows that this is ethnically based.

As for the hotels that rejected the Uighurs, you can't really blame them, either. Earlier this year, some foreign-trained Uighur female passenger attempted to blow up an airplane in the mid air on its way to Beijing from Urumqi, only to be foiled by vigilant flight attendants. As I learned from this post of yours (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=3807360#post3807360), I have little doubt you would be cheering for the Uighur martyr, but you should realize 99.99*% of Chinese don't share your view and your affection for anti-China terrorists.

Here you basically support Sam's position that there is discrimination based on ethnic profilling.

[SamFisher]

Here you basically support Sam's position that there is discrimination based on ethnic profilling.
He says that they're barbarians - I will give him credit at least he does not hide it.

[wnes]

Except that the article doesn't say that they were migrant workers

Umm, I think there is a name for this kind of journalistic trick -- cherry picking.

To give you an example, let's say your state government decides to cut budget and stop rewarding contracts to small business owners. You, a Chinese-American small business owner, is of course no exception from the budget deficit downfall. Somewhere a journalist with an ulterior motive, however, elects to make story out it. Instead of reporting the hardship suffered by small business owners in general, he chooses to opine that MN state government is out to screw Chinese Americans by focusing you as his poster boy.

Now back to the Uighur subjects in the article Samuel Fischer cited. Can anyone really dispute with a straight face they are not migrant workers in Beijing? The answer is unequivocally no, because they were not tourists, they went to Beijing looking to work. As it is also understood, the Uighur interviewee's cousin, who has a formal residence in Beijing, was not forced to leave.

and even says that hotels were willing to give them rooms until they found out they were ethnically Uighar. Now whether they identify their nationality with the PRC is another thing but the fact that their identity cards indicate they are Uighar and they were turned away on that basis shows that this is ethnically based.

Here you basically support Sam's position that there is discrimination based on ethnic profilling.

It would be a travesty of justice if all ethnic minorities were "profiled", but it's not. You feel sympathetic towards the Uighurs' mishaps if they are truly peace-loving patriotic ones, but that's about all you can do for the time being. The violent, extreme and criminal elements of the Uighur have made a bad reputation for their race by intensifying a terrorist campaign including suicidal attempt at blowing up a commercial airplane, repeated threats to sabotage the Olympics in Beijing, and killing/bombing Han-Chinese targets in Xinjiang. Facing the harsh reality, the hotel clerks had no other choice but exercised their discretionary duties to refuse to serve the Uighurs for the safety of themselves and many others under their service. Not particularly PC by Western hippie standards, but highly understandable. Unless you are terrorist admirer who is also willing to contribute yourself to martyristic cause, you'd appreciate the extraordinary effort put together by the Chinese to ensure a safe Olympics.

He says that they're barbarians - I will give him credit at least he does not hide it.

Not if they forsake some of their rituals. Probably you can tell me other than hunting and butchering animals, what do they need to carry knives for in everyday life?

[rocketsjudoka]

Umm, I think there is a name for this kind of journalistic trick -- cherry picking.

To give you an example, let's say your state government decides to cut budget and stop rewarding contracts to small business owners. You, a Chinese-American small business owner, is of course no exception from the budget deficit downfall. Somewhere a journalist with an ulterior motive, however, elects to make story out it. Instead of reporting the hardship suffered by small business owners in general, he chooses to opine that MN state government is out to screw Chinese Americans by focusing you as his poster boy.

Now back to the Uighur subjects in the article Samuel Fischer cited. Can anyone really dispute with a straight face they are not migrant workers in Beijing? The answer is unequivocally no, because they were not tourists, they went to Beijing looking to work. As it is also understood, the Uighur interviewee's cousin, who has a formal residence in Beijing, was not forced to leave.

First off the article states that they have been in Beijing before and was even running a successful restaurant. It doesn't state that they were back in Beijing looking for work, it doesn't state what they were doing back in Beijing. So you seem to be enganging in another Op-ed practice of making an assumption. Have you considered that Uighars might actually want to visit for a reason besides work? Shopping, visiting friends and relatives or maybe they even wanted to see the spectacle of the Olympics. Your post betrays a bias that you only figure that Uighars would be there as workers.

Even if they were there though for work though your argument that the crackdown is general and not ethnically based is countered by where the article states that hotels where willing to rent rooms until they found out they were Uighars.

It would be a travesty of justice if all ethnic minorities were "profiled", but it's not. You feel sympathetic towards the Uighurs' mishaps if they are truly peace-loving patriotic ones, but that's about all you can do for the time being. The violent, extreme and criminal elements of the Uighur have made a bad reputation for their race by intensifying a terrorist campaign including suicidal attempt at blowing up a commercial airplane, repeated threats to sabotage the Olympics in Beijing, and killing/bombing Han-Chinese targets in Xinjiang. Facing the harsh reality, the hotel clerks had no other choice but exercised their discretionary duties to refuse to serve the Uighurs for the safety of themselves and many others under their service. Not particularly PC by Western hippie standards, but highly understandable. Unless you are terrorist admirer who is also willing to contribute yourself to martyristic cause, you'd appreciate the extraordinary effort put together by the Chinese to ensure a safe Olympics.

This is a slightly tangential topic but in regard to ethnic profiling I am opposed to it not for purely PC reasons but that it also causes other problems. For one as the article notes only a very small percentage of Uighars actually are terrorists but to treat them as a whole as being potential terrorists only ends up embittering them further towards the PRC making them more likely to be sympathetic to the radicals. The second problem is that it creates a blind spot in your defense as if the terrorists know that you are profiling they adjust their strategy. You are left with then spending focussing heavily on one profile, and in the case of ethnicity or race one very broad profile, while making it easier for the terrorists to slip through by defying the profile. For instance from seized Al Qaeda documents its known that Al Qaeda has been recruiting non-Arabs to be terrorists since they feel that the West is primarily focussed on Arabs. Also it is known that the 9/11 terrorists went to great lengths to blend in and unlike the case of the Imams who were caused a stir at the Minneapolis airport last year the 9/11 terrorists were very careful about revealing they were Muslims. So in general I think racial or ethnic profiling is a bad idea whether it is done by the PRC or USA.

Bringing it back though to though to the main point of you and Sam's discussion is that Sam was arguing that the PRC is engaged in ethnic discrimination which rather than countering you are basically agreeing with.

[wnes]

First off the article states that they have been in Beijing before and was even running a successful restaurant. It doesn't state that they were back in Beijing looking for work, it doesn't state what they were doing back in Beijing. So you seem to be enganging in another Op-ed practice of making an assumption. Have you considered that Uighars might actually want to visit for a reason besides work? Shopping, visiting friends and relatives or maybe they even wanted to see the spectacle of the Olympics. Your post betrays a bias that you only figure that Uighars would be there as workers.

Even if they were there though for work though your argument that the crackdown is general and not ethnically based is countered by where the article states that hotels where willing to rent rooms until they found out they were Uighars.

Bringing it back though to though to the main point of you and Sam's discussion is that Sam was arguing that the PRC is engaged in ethnic discrimination which rather than countering you are basically agreeing with.

Even if there is some speculation on my part, it's well-founded. The article doesn't say the Uighur couple went to Beijing for a kick-ass vacation, either. It is pretty obvious to me they were tight in cash, which casts serious doubt on your claim that they had run a "successful" restaurant business. They needed money, and for that, they were looking for work. So this puts them in the potential migrant worker category. I am not disputing that life is hard for migrant workers in Beijing without formal residences during the Olympics. However, there is no distinction between a Han migrant worker and a Uighur as far as their inconveniences/mishaps are concerned. The ethnic identity is a convenient tool used by the author to stir up controversy. Sammy Fisher's bogus assertion that you cannot find any Uighur in Beijing during the Olympics, the BS that even he himself doesn't believe, is not supported by any news media's finding.

This is a slightly tangential topic but in regard to ethnic profiling I am opposed to it not for purely PC reasons but that it also causes other problems. For one as the article notes only a very small percentage of Uighars actually are terrorists but to treat them as a whole as being potential terrorists only ends up embittering them further towards the PRC making them more likely to be sympathetic to the radicals. The second problem is that it creates a blind spot in your defense as if the terrorists know that you are profiling they adjust their strategy. You are left with then spending focussing heavily on one profile, and in the case of ethnicity or race one very broad profile, while making it easier for the terrorists to slip through by defying the profile. For instance from seized Al Qaeda documents its known that Al Qaeda has been recruiting non-Arabs to be terrorists since they feel that the West is primarily focussed on Arabs. Also it is known that the 9/11 terrorists went to great lengths to blend in and unlike the case of the Imams who were caused a stir at the Minneapolis airport last year the 9/11 terrorists were very careful about revealing they were Muslims. So in general I think racial or ethnic profiling is a bad idea whether it is done by the PRC or USA.

With limited resources and tight time constraint, specificity and efficiency take highest priorities in counter terrorism. Your idealistic hippie approach never works in real world. Besides, thus far, there is no evidence that hard-core ETIM terrorists have recruited non-Turkic criminals to excute the separatist agenda within the PRC territory. Your worry is thus rightfully unheeded.

[SamFisher]

Not if they forsake some of their rituals. Probably you can tell me other than hunting and butchering animals, what do they need to carry knives for in everyday life?

It's tradition among nomads in central asia to carry a knife for cutting meat. The way it works is that in the desert or in the steppes, basically if you see a settlement you're entitled to go right in and they're obliged to feed you, so it's considered a courtesy/tradition to cut your own meat off the bone, usually goat or sheep's meat, using your own knife. It's like carrying your own chopsticks around.

[MFW]

"primary sourced article not based on the likes of uhrp.org, phayul, tibet.org et al."

I did not see a single reference to those sites in the text of the Globe and Mail article, did you?


Gee Sammy, if I recall correctly from English 101, a primary source is first hand information from an authoritative source. Now tell me, since when did the Globe and Mail become such experts on Han/Uyghur relations or history of the region for that matter.

What the G&M is quite authoritative on though, is the routine anti-China bashing and regular citing of unverified rumours when it comes to the aforementioned nation. Goes with the whole territory of being a conservative paper and all.

Now of course, if you actually regularly read your sources instead of googling them or link them from the likes of uhrp.org, you'd know of such tendencies...

First off the article states that they have been in Beijing before and was even running a successful restaurant. It doesn't state that they were back in Beijing looking for work, it doesn't state what they were doing back in Beijing...


No offense or anything Sishir, wnes may be guilty of assumptions, but you are equally so.

As the article claimed that 4,000 to 5,000 Uyghurs had been booted out of Beijing and they are refused hotels. Even assuming plight of Nuer and Guli is true (which we have yet to see proof, hence a big IF), that at best proves ONE HOTEL's bias, instead of public policy of discrimination against Uyghurs.

Hence, wnes is absolutely right, the article is cherrypicking at best.

This is a slightly tangential topic but in regard to ethnic profiling I am opposed to it not for purely PC reasons but that it also causes other problems. For one as the article notes only a very small percentage of Uighars actually are terrorists but to treat them as a whole as being potential terrorists only ends up embittering them further towards the PRC making them more likely to be sympathetic to the radicals...


Although a small percentage of Uyghurs are terrorists, it doesn't help their cause that >99% of terrorists in China are Uyghur and Tibetans, along with their backers.

You may not remember security in Xinjiang in the 80's and early 90's. It stunk. It is a helluva better today.

Western media spins Xinjiang as very safe and China merely impose curfews and restrictions to limit "ethnical and religious freedom." They got the chicken and egg problem wrong. Xinjiang is safe today BECAUSE of the central government curfews and restrictions.

It's tradition among nomads in central asia to carry a knife for cutting meat. The way it works is that in the desert or in the steppes, basically if you see a settlement you're entitled to go right in and they're obliged to feed you, so it's considered a courtesy/tradition to cut your own meat off the bone, usually goat or sheep's meat, using your own knife. It's like carrying your own chopsticks around.

Yes, as we all know it is impossible to find knives in Chinese restaurants...