Olympics - China using underage girls?

[SageHare6]

Do you guys buy this?

Looking super young is one thing, but cheating? WHOA!!!!


http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym-karolyi-ages&prov=ap&type=lgns

Bela Karolyi incensed about underage rules
By BARRY WILNER, AP Sports Writer
15 hours, 15 minutes ago

Buzz Up Print
BEIJING (AP)—Bela Karolyi seethed as he watched the Chinese women compete Sunday.

Not because of how good they were in qualifications, finishing 1.475 points ahead of the American team that often trains at his Texas ranch. What bothered the most famous man in gymnastics was “China’s arrogance” for using girls he wasn’t even sure were teenagers yet.

“They are using half-people,” Karolyi said. “One of the biggest frustrations is, what arrogance. These people think we are stupid.

“We are in the business of gymnastics and we know what a kid of 14 or 15 or 16 looks like. You don’t have to be a gymnastics coach to know what they look like at 16.”

Karolyi, working the games for NBC, believes the international federation’s rules that gymnasts must turn at least 16 during the Olympic year are flawed. Karolyi’s complaints are nothing new. But when they come moments after the Chinese have competed at the Olympics, well, they come across more loudly than ever.

“What kind of slap in the face is this?” he asked. “They are 12, 14 years old, max. And they line them up for the world … and having the government back them.

“Since they forced an age limit, it has gotten worse and worse. The FIG is running away from the age problem. They set an age limit and now they can’t control it.”

International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) officials have accepted the passports of the Chinese women, which indicate all are old enough to compete. Karolyi is originally from Romania, and he says falsifying documents is a common practice in countries such as Romania, Russia and other former Soviet bloc nations.

The solution, he said, is to not have any age limit. He believes if a gymnast is good enough to earn a spot at the Olympics or world championships, that athlete deserves to go. He said some juniors today are just as proficient as the age-eligble competitors. Nastia Liukin, for example, would certainly have made the squad for the Athens Games four years ago had she not been 14.

Karolyi’s wife, Martha, the national coordinator for the U.S. women’s team, agrees that if there are any questions about age, just eliminate the restrictions being broken.

“If it’s true,” she said of any nation using underage gymnasts, “the only situation is to lift up the age limit. It would be an even playing field for everyone.”

Bela Karolyi praised the Chinese for their skills on the various apparatus, and for their competitiveness. His issue is not with the athletes, of course, but with those who would use them as pawns in the chase for medals.

Very young pawns.

“They do good gymnastics and are a good service for the sport,” he said of the Chinese. “They have the ultimate effective training program. That’s why I am more upset that they are cheating. They don’t need cheating. They would be just as good a lineup of eligible athletes.”

theSAGE?

[yuantian]

don't be jealous that Chinese people look young.

i am almost 28, people think i am still in college.
when i was in graduate school, some undergraduate freshmen thought i was an incoming freshmen too. until i told him i am in graduate school. :D those girls look about right. there is one that's questionable from her looks, but you can't really guess someone's age.

they just complain when they can't even beat little girls.

[DaDakota]

Yes China is cheating, they forged the passports to make 2 or 3 of their girls appear older.

Oh well...big shock !!

DD

[meh]

If there is an age limit, then I think it's stupid. Mainly because yes, countries like China will never bother to adhere to it. As for the ages of those girls... yeah, I watched a bit of the gymnastics, and I sure as hell don't think many of them are 16.

[KingCheetah]

I'd be shocked if a couple of those girls were even twelve.

[meh]

I'd be shocked if a couple of those girls were even twelve.

I wouldn't go that far. Chinese people in general are smaller in stature than other races. And gymnastics do require some mental acumen that comes with age. And being a country with a billion people and a central government which pours tons of money into this, I think it's quite easy for them to find enough naturally short girls.

[KingCheetah]

Chinese people in general are smaller in stature than other races.


They're not 16 years old -- not even close.

[Air Langhi]

As women age their relative strength goes down, so a 10-11 year old girl might have more relative strength than a 20 year old girl so it isn't really fair.

[real_egal]

When it comes to accusation of China, you never need any fact/proof/evidence, a simple "I believe" is more than enough.

Yeah that guy was praising Chinese gymnastics to say that they were so good that they don't need to cheat. LOL. He's sure they were cheating, without any proof. It's NBC, and the land of freedom, since that guy has a US passport now, whatever accusation he threw at China is welcome.

There are 2 out of 4 US team members are at 16, and there are so many more gymnasists from other countries are at 16. Perfectly at 16. They were all perfectly timed when they started training to aim for this 2008 Olympics. But if a Chinese is 16 and doing well? NOOOOOOOOOOO, she must be cheating. What's this all about? Doesn't Canada have a 14 year old boy diving genius boy? It's ok, he's not from a commie country, so he's a little hero. Didn't a 15 year old Russian girl just stepped on the floor? Russia is no longer a commie country, so it's ok.

But Chinese? If they are doing anything well, they must be cheating.

Those 16 year old girls from democratic countries, when they competed in World Cup or any other tournaments last year or 2 years ago, they were 16 too.

Being a sore loser is somewhat understandable, but trying so hard with all kinds of excuses and accusation, EVEN before the final take place? That guy really makes his new motherland proud, and of course he made Bob Costas happy.

[meh]

They're not 16 years old -- not even close.

I never said they were (refer to my first post in this thread). It's just that as yuantian pointed out, Americans(and likely other western countries) don't have a good idea regarding the age of Chinese people.

As I said, in a land with a billion people, with a race that is typically smaller in stature compared to other races, I don't feel the Chinese government needs to resort to using 11 or 12 year olds.

Would they if it's necessary? I'm sure. But I just don't think it's necessary.

[yuantian]

As women age their relative strength goes down, so a 10-11 year old girl might have more relative strength than a 20 year old girl so it isn't really fair.

you sure are an expert in how women age. :D

so why are there more 10-11 girls in weight lifting? if you say they have more strength?

[Cannonball]

you sure are an expert in how women age. :D

so why are there more 10-11 girls in weight lifting? if you say they have more strength?

He said RELATIVE WEIGHT. I'm a relatively big guy and even though I'm stronger than someone half my size, they might be able to do more pushups than me because they'd be pushing less weight. Same principle. They weigh less and consequently don't have to be as strong as someone older and more developed in order to accomplish their feats.

[mazyar]

I don't know. Watching them perform right now, I don't think they're as old as they're listed. Even the 20 year old girl looks like she could be like 17. The shortest one looks to be like 13.

[yuantian]

He said RELATIVE WEIGHT. I'm a relatively big guy and even though I'm stronger than someone half my size, they might be able to do more pushups than me because they'd be pushing less weight. Same principle. They weigh less and consequently don't have to be as strong as someone older and more developed in order to accomplish their feats.

if they have less weight, that means they have less muscle too. it's all relative. size different isn't that big between a 14, 16 year old girls. just because Asian girls are smaller, doesn't mean they are that much younger. it's not their fault that they don't eat cheese or fried chicken injected with hormones.

[yuantian]

I don't know. Watching them perform right now, I don't think they're as old as they're listed. Even the 20 year old girl looks like she could be like 17. The shortest one looks to be like 13.

if that girl is 17, why do they even bother list her as 20 year old? they picked these less developed girls on purpose because they've got advantage.

[Hayesfan]

Three of those Chinese girls looked as though they hadn't hit puberty yet. Honestly, they were very talented and I am glad they are getting a chance to compete, but I agree with the Karolyi's. Just take away the age limits if you can't verify they are actually being followed.

Gymnastics is a young persons sport. There is no way a persons body could take the beating that they take for 15 to 20 years and not have wear and tear. It's harming the girls more than the sport.

For male gymnasts I can see a difference because most of their events are strength based rather than tumbling based. The males only have the floor that is really tumbling, the vault is, but not to the same extent.

I understand looking young for your age, but there are some developments in a females body that you can definitely see between the ages of 12 and 15. Even on girls that compete in gymnastics and other sports.

[Oski2005]

When it comes to accusation of China, you never need any fact/proof/evidence, a simple "I believe" is more than enough.

Yeah that guy was praising Chinese gymnastics to say that they were so good that they don't need to cheat. LOL. He's sure they were cheating, without any proof. It's NBC, and the land of freedom, since that guy has a US passport now, whatever accusation he threw at China is welcome.

There are 2 out of 4 US team members are at 16, and there are so many more gymnasists from other countries are at 16. Perfectly at 16. They were all perfectly timed when they started training to aim for this 2008 Olympics. But if a Chinese is 16 and doing well? NOOOOOOOOOOO, she must be cheating. What's this all about? Doesn't Canada have a 14 year old boy diving genius boy? It's ok, he's not from a commie country, so he's a little hero. Didn't a 15 year old Russian girl just stepped on the floor? Russia is no longer a commie country, so it's ok.

What does the 14 year old diver have to do with anything? Rules are rules. There's an age limit for the Gymnastics. I don't know what it is for diving but the boys age is known so obviously he's not breaking any rules.

But Chinese? If they are doing anything well, they must be cheating.

Those 16 year old girls from democratic countries, when they competed in World Cup or any other tournaments last year or 2 years ago, they were 16 too.

Being a sore loser is somewhat understandable, but trying so hard with all kinds of excuses and accusation, EVEN before the final take place? That guy really makes his new motherland proud, and of course he made Bob Costas happy.

What are acusing those "16 year old girls from democratic" countries of doing?

All I know is that watching the Chinese girls warmup, before even seeing them compete, and even before knowing about the Bela thing, I just said to myself that at least 2 of those girls looked like they were 12 or 13.

[mazyar]

if that girl is 17, why do they even bother list her as 20 year old? they picked these less developed girls on purpose because they've got advantage.
I know. Because the 20 year old in this Olympic, also competed in the last Olympic. They said that on tv. So it makes sense, she was probebly under 16 when she competed in Athens, so now they have to list here at 20 four years later. Maybe...

[Bullard4Life]

Yeah that guy was praising Chinese gymnastics to say that they were so good that they don't need to cheat. LOL. He's sure they were cheating, without any proof. It's NBC, and the land of freedom, since that guy has a US passport now, whatever accusation he threw at China is welcome.

"That guy" is Béla Károlyi. He's coached individual gold medal winners like Nadia Comaneci and Marie Lou Retton as well as the Romanian and US teams. He's been a citizen of the Unite States so your passport knock, like most of your post, is pretty ignorant.

There are 2 out of 4 US team members are at 16, and there are so many more gymnasists from other countries are at 16. Perfectly at 16. They were all perfectly timed when they started training to aim for this 2008 Olympics. But if a Chinese is 16 and doing well? NOOOOOOOOOOO, she must be cheating. What's this all about? Doesn't Canada have a 14 year old boy diving genius boy? It's ok, he's not from a commie country, so he's a little hero. Didn't a 15 year old Russian girl just stepped on the floor? Russia is no longer a commie country, so it's ok.

Read the original story. The 16 year old age limit is a specific regulation for gymnastics: "the international federation’s rules that gymnasts must turn at least 16 during the Olympic year." The US has abided by the rule, China most likely hasn't.

But Chinese? If they are doing anything well, they must be cheating.

The issue is that there's plenty of references to the girl's being younger than 16, but when it became clear that they would be competing in the Olympics, all of a sudden the government produced passports saying they were 16.
On the website of the Chengdu Sports Bureau - Chengdu is the capital of Sichuan province in southwest China - a file dated January 2006 shows He Kexin as being born Jan. 1, 1994.

Most recently, a May 23 story in the China Daily newspaper, the official English-language paper of the Chinese government, had He Kexin's age as 14.

The newspaper story begins: "The 14-year old newcomer to the national team, who was recruited last year, has raised a lot of eyebrows recently after she broke two world records on the uneven bars in as many months."
http://www.canadaeast.com/sports/article/367383

Your assertions look a lot more biased and ignorant than Károlyi's.

[yuantian]

a lot of those European girls don't look like they are 16 either. Johnson looks like she is 15 too.

[Hayesfan]

a lot of those European girls don't look like they are 16 either. Johnson looks like she is 15 too.

She might be 15, but as long as she turns 16 before the end of 2008 she is considered 16 for the sport.

[DOMINATOR]

gymnastics stunts your growth so it's really hard to tell a gymnasts age just by their looks.

[Luckyazn]

Ok I dont get it


So if your younger in this you have an advantage?

I thought most sports you'll have an advantage if your older?



It just sounds wierd that you're saying someone who is really "12" is doing alot better than kids that are "16" ?

[yuantian]

She might be 15, but as long as she turns 16 before the end of 2008 she is considered 16 for the sport.

it's impossible to tell when it's only a year or two difference. some people just develop later than others. i admit that a couple of the girls, i was like they can't be 16. but it's not like it's impossible that they aren't 15 or 16 by the end of the year. the only conclusion is that they are more likely to be younger than 16, but if you can't prove it, it doesn't really matter. just get rid of the age limit. or move it to 12 years old.

[Why So Serious?]

Well here are the pics to the Chinese woman's gymnastic team, its up to people to decide how old they look like.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/01448_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00786_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00686_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00824_142x190.jpg

[yuantian]

Ok I dont get it


So if your younger in this you have an advantage?

I thought most sports you'll have an advantage if your older?



It just sounds wierd that you're saying someone who is really "12" is doing alot better than kids that are "16" ?

if you are taller, then you have real disadvantage in gymnastics. so i guess younger/smaller the better. i guess if you can't beat them, you gotta put some limitation then.

[Hayesfan]

just get rid of the age limit. or move it to 12 years old.

Funny that's what I said in the last post before the one you quoted ;)

I agree, you can't tell and how hard is it for a government to fake a national players age? Not difficult. That's why I think you should just take it out.

[yuantian]

Well here are the pics to the Chinese woman's gymnastic team, its up to people to decide how old they look like.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/01448_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00786_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00686_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00824_142x190.jpg

they look like they can be anywhere between 14, 15, 16.

[Why So Serious?]

gymnastics stunts your growth so it's really hard to tell a gymnasts age just by their looks.

Right it was hard for me to believe that
http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/Picture%2039(5).png
is actually 20

Made me a lot better for getting a bonner lol.

[yuantian]

Funny that's what I said in the last post before the one you quoted ;)

I agree, you can't tell and how hard is it for a government to fake a national players age? Not difficult. That's why I think you should just take it out.

fake age is pretty common in Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia, etc.

[real_egal]

What does the 14 year old diver have to do with anything? Rules are rules. There's an age limit for the Gymnastics. I don't know what it is for diving but the boys age is known so obviously he's not breaking any rules.



What are acusing those "16 year old girls from democratic" countries of doing?

All I know is that watching the Chinese girls warmup, before even seeing them compete, and even before knowing about the Bela thing, I just said to myself that at least 2 of those girls looked like they were 12 or 13.

Rules are rules? Didn't Russia team has a girl officially listed as 15, is competing yesterday? Were those 16 years old girls 16 last year or 2 years before? Where were the outcry? They were ok to compete in other world tournaments but not Olympics? For what? Protecting them? Or just like you limiting participants in table tennis to limit Chinese?

Like I said, you came on TV to accuse Chinese team of cheating, you need something more than "I believe". I didn't see NBC running on those "I believe" storys on Jones or Lance Amstrong or Christie. Maybe, just maybe, years from now, that 41 year old super woman would give us some "surprise" too, just like Jones did.

They look young to you so they must be cheating? My wife got her PhD before some of those girls were even born, but she's asked for ID 10 out of 10 times entering a casino or a bar. But you know what, people asked for her ID to prove their suspicion, they didn't refuse her to enter because "they believe".

[DOMINATOR]

Right it was hard for me to believe that
is actually 20

Made me a lot better for getting a bonner lol.
same lol... she will probably grow 2-3 inches and uhh 'develop' more when she quits gymnastics.

[Why So Serious?]

Funny that's what I said in the last post before the one you quoted ;)

I agree, you can't tell and how hard is it for a government to fake a national players age? Not difficult. That's why I think you should just take it out.

Right I really don't see why you should have a age limit in the Olympics, if you are skilled enough to compete then why should age matter?

[yuantian]

it's hard to tell how small these people are. the guys all look buff as hell, but they are no taller than 5'7. the American girls look 'older', but it's mostly just 'bigger'.

[yuantian]

Right I really don't see why you should have a age limit in the Olympics, if you are skilled enough to compete then why should age matter?

ya, if a 9 year old can swim faster than Mike, then put him in.

[Storm Surge]

Agreed, if you are good enough you should be able to compete no matter age.

What's the difference between competing in the Olympics and competing in all those junior tourneys that those kids are doing now?

[Air Langhi]

if you are taller, then you have real disadvantage in gymnastics. so i guess younger/smaller the better. i guess if you can't beat them, you gotta put some limitation then.

Also having no breasts and insane flexibility are also advantages. As you grow older I don't think you grow more flexible either. Just get rid of the AGE limit. Nadia Comaneci was 14 when she won.

[halfbreed]

they look like they can be anywhere between 14, 15, 16.

If you're saying this with a straight face, let me know so I can disregard anything you say in the future.

Look it's one thing for you to argue there should be no age limit. Do not tell me that those girls are all of legal age for the competition. They aren't. I would bet every dollar I've ever made on that.

[yuantian]

If you're saying this with a straight face, let me know so I can disregard anything you say in the future.

Look it's one thing for you to argue there should be no age limit. Do not tell me that those girls are all of legal age for the competition. They aren't. I would bet every dollar I've ever made on that.

look, i went to middle school in China. when i left, i was 14 and half. there are 15 year old girls just like that. i don't know why that's surprising.

[HAYJON02]

The thread title sounds like a Chris Hanson synopsis.

[Oski2005]

Rules are rules? Didn't Russia team has a girl officially listed as 15, is competing yesterday? Were those 16 years old girls 16 last year or 2 years before? Where were the outcry? They were ok to compete in other world tournaments but not Olympics? For what? Protecting them? Or just like you limiting participants in table tennis to limit Chinese?

Like I said, you came on TV to accuse Chinese team of cheating, you need something more than "I believe". I didn't see NBC running on those "I believe" storys on Jones or Lance Amstrong or Christie. Maybe, just maybe, years from now, that 41 year old super woman would give us some "surprise" too, just like Jones did.

15 is ok as long as they turn 16 in 2008. I don't know how many different competitions these girls enter, but their ages are verified so whatever they competed in, they were allowed to. For example:

Legal exceptions
The one exception to this rule applies to the year before the Olympics, when gymnasts who are one year below the required age, but will be the required age in the Olympic year, may compete as seniors at the World Championships and other FIG meets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_controversies_in_gymnastics

And the 16 year olds were participating in Junior events, not senior events 2 years ago, nice try though. Their ages aren't magically changing in time for the Olympic games. You can read their bios and see where they've competed here:
http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/NationalTeam.aspx?prog=w&h=975

Who prosecuted Jones, the US govt did. Lance Armstrong has been tested and tested and never failed. And the 41 year old swimmer went above and beyond and enrolled into extra testing in a voluntary program and even then the US media has questioned her.

The only person outright accusing them is Bela, don't act like Costas has said "I believe" they are younger. He's just reporting the story that exists.

Online records listing Chinese gymnasts and their ages that were posted on official Web sites in China, along with ages given in the official Chinese news media, however, seem to contradict the passport information, indicating that He and Jiang may be as young as 14 — two years below the Olympic limit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html?_r=3&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

See, nobody is just accusing them on tv based on their looks, as suspicious looking as they are, it's based on China's own websites.

[halfbreed]

look, i went to middle school in China. when i left, i was 14 and half. there are 15 year old girls just like that. i don't know why that's surprising.

Those girls are wearing make up and they STILL look around around 12 at the oldest.

You can't honestly be telling me that you think all of those girls are at least 16.

[rcoleman15]

You know I could really care less what age they are but looking at this pic I really can't see any of them being over the age of 13:

http://www.nbcolympics.com/mm/photo/sports/general/18/09/07/180907_m03.jpg

[RocketsHero]

Well here are the pics to the Chinese woman's gymnastic team, its up to people to decide how old they look like.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/01448_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00786_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00686_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00824_142x190.jpg

first two are older, probably 17, last two are about 15-16

[yuantian]

Those girls are wearing make up and they STILL look around around 12 at the oldest.

You can't honestly be telling me that you think all of those girls are at least 16.

as someone pointed out earlier, as long as you are 16 by the end of the year, then it's OK. so say they are about 15 and half right now. are you telling me, you never see at 15 and half year old girl look like that before? in China, there are.

i am not saying these girls are 15/16 for certain. of course, they look like younger compared to the girls here. if you don't live with that population, how can you tell how old they are?

like i said before. on many many occasions, my friends thought i am at least 5 years younger than my actual age is. when i tell people my age, everyone of them is so surprised that i am that old. i can honestly say, that without any knowledge about me, no one can guess my accurate age. most people are at least 3 years off. so it doesn't surprise me that these people who accuse these girls being underage, have no freaking idea what they are talking about.

[DaDakota]

I heard there is documentation they are way under 16......by a Chinese newspaper....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep here ya go, they are underage. (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/27/sports/OLY.php)

"The Times found two online records of official registration lists of Chinese gymnasts that list He's birthday as Jan. 1, 1994, which would make her 14. A 2007 national registry of Chinese gymnasts - now blocked in China but viewable through Google cache - shows He's birthday as "1994.1.1."

Another registration list that is unblocked, dated Jan. 27, 2006, regarding an intercity competition in Chengdu, China, also lists He's birthday as Jan. 1, 1994. That date differs by two years from the birth date of Jan. 1, 1992, listed on He's passport, which was issued Feb. 14, 2008."

"In Chinese newspaper profiles this year, He was listed as 14, too young for the Beijing Games."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly the Chinese authorities are cheating....why am I not surprised?

DD

[halfbreed]

as someone pointed out earlier, as long as you are 16 by the end of the year, then it's OK. so say they are about 15 and half right now. are you telling me, you never see at 15 and half year old girl look like that before? in China, there are.

i am not saying these girls are 15/16 for certain. of course, they look like younger compared to the girls here. if you don't live with that population, how can you tell how old they are?

like i said before. on many many occasions, my friends thought i am at least 5 years younger than my actual age is. when i tell people my age, everyone of them is so surprised that i am that old. i can honestly say, that without any knowledge about me, no one can guess my accurate age. most people are at least 3 years off. so it doesn't surprise me that these people who accuse these girls being underage, have no freaking idea what they are talking about.

As has been pointed out, the original accusations come from official Chinese records indicating that they aren't of age.

Secondly, I'm 23 and people think I'm 18 when I first meet them. That being said, age is a lot harder to differentiate in the late teens and twenties than it is when you haven't hit puberty yet. If anything, since girls hit puberty at an earlier age, females tend to look older than they are.

You're making this into a racial thing when it's not. I guarantee you that not all of those girls are 15 and a half. Some of them I can believe that for. A couple of them just aren't even in the range of "benefit of the doubt" territory.

[AGBee]

Well here are the pics to the Chinese woman's gymnastic team, its up to people to decide how old they look like.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/01448_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00786_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00686_142x190.jpg
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/00824_142x190.jpg

Based on the training I've received from the Chinese posters on the forum, I'd say these old hags are at least 40.

[JunkyardDwg]

But Chinese? If they are doing anything well, they must be cheating.

Those 16 year old girls from democratic countries, when they competed in World Cup or any other tournaments last year or 2 years ago, they were 16 too.

Being a sore loser is somewhat understandable, but trying so hard with all kinds of excuses and accusation, EVEN before the final take place? That guy really makes his new motherland proud, and of course he made Bob Costas happy.


Karolyi is not the only one who has doubts about the age limits of these athletes. And apparently this wouldn't be the first time that cheating has occurred on the part of China:

Yang Yun of China won individual and team bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and later said in an interview on state-run television that she had been 14 at the time of those Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report also said later that she had been 14 when she competed in Sydney.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

And also, the U.S. Women's Gymnastics team are the reigning World Champions; to even imply that they could possibly be acting like sore losers is silly... I'm sure they'd just like a level playing field; so just lift the age restrictions and then there won't be any controversy.

[yuantian]

As has been pointed out, the original accusations come from official Chinese records indicating that they aren't of age.

Secondly, I'm 23 and people think I'm 18 when I first meet them. That being said, age is a lot harder to differentiate in the late teens and twenties than it is when you haven't hit puberty yet. If anything, since girls hit puberty at an earlier age, females tend to look older than they are.

You're making this into a racial thing when it's not. I guarantee you that not all of those girls are 15 and a half. Some of them I can believe that for. A couple of them just aren't even in the range of "benefit of the doubt" territory.

no, i wasn't trying to make this into a racial thing. i guess it does sound like it. oh well, i wasn't trying. it's more of a demographic thing.

but it is.

read this.

Timing of onset
This section does not cite any references or sources.
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Puberty is a process with a gradual onset beginning with changes of neuronal function in the hypothalamus, resulting in rising hormonal signals between brain and gonads, proceeding to gonadal growth and production of sex steroids, which in turn induce changes in responsive parts of the body. The definition of onset, therefore, depends on the perspective (e.g., hormonal versus physical) and purpose (establishing population normal standards, clinical care of early or late children, or a variety of other social purposes). The most commonly used definition of onset for both social and medical purposes is the appearance of the first physical changes described in this section of this article, but it should be understood that these physical changes are the first outward signs of preceding neural, hormonal, and gonadal function changes that are usually impossible or impractical to detect.

The age at which puberty begins can vary widely between individuals and between populations. Age of puberty is affected by both genetic factors and by environmental factors such as nutritional state or social circumstances. Timing may also be affected by environmental factors (exogenous hormones and environmental substances with hormone-like effects) and there is even evidence that life experiences may play a role as well.[25].

Ethnic/racial differences have been recognized for centuries. For example, the average age of menarche in various populations surveyed in the last several decades has ranged from 12.0 to 18.5 years. The earliest mean is reported for African-American girls and the oldest for high altitude subsistence populations in Asia. However, it is clear that much of the higher age averages reflect nutritional limitations more than genetic differences and can change within a few generations with a substantial change in diet. The median age of menarche for a population may be an index of the proportion of undernourished girls in the population, and the width of the spread may reflect unevenness of wealth and food distribution in a population.

[edit] Genetic influence

Various studies have found direct genetic effects to account for at least 46% of the variation of timing of puberty in well-nourished populations.[26][27][28][29] The genetic association of timing is strongest between mothers and daughters. The specific genes affecting timing are not defined yet.[26] Among the candidates is an androgen receptor gene.[30]

[edit] Environmental factors

If genetic factors account for half of the variation of pubertal timing, environment factors are clearly important as well. One of the earliest observed environmental effects is that puberty occurs later in children raised at higher altitudes. The most important of the environmental influences is clearly nutrition, but a number of others have been identified, all which affect timing of female puberty and menarche more clearly than male puberty.

[edit] Nutritional influence

Nutritional factors are the strongest and most obvious environmental factors affecting timing of puberty.[26] Girls are especially sensitive to nutritional regulation because they must contribute all of the nutritional support to a growing fetus. Surplus calories (beyond growth and activity requirements) are reflected in the amount of body fat, which signals to the brain the availability of resources for initiation of puberty and fertility.

Much evidence suggests that for most of the last few centuries, nutritional differences accounted for majority of variation of pubertal timing in different populations, and even among social classes in the same population. Recent worldwide increased consumption of animal protein, other changes in nutrition, and increases in childhood obesity have resulted in falling ages of puberty, mainly in those populations with the higher previous ages. In many populations the amount of variation attributable to nutrition is shrinking.

Although available dietary energy (simple calories) is the most important dietary influence on timing of puberty, quality of the diet plays a role as well. Lower protein intakes and higher plant fiber intakes, as occur with typical vegetarian diets, are associated with later onset and slower progression of female puberty.

Studies have shown that calcium deficiency is a cause of late puberty, irregular and painful, cramping during menstruation with excessive blood loss, and lowered immune response to infections in young girls. This could be from a deficient diet or lack of vitamin D from too little sun exposure. This lack of calcium could predispose them to osteoporosis later in life.

[edit] Obesity influence

Scientific researchers have linked early obesity with a drop of puberty onset in girls. They have cited obesity as a cause of breast development before nine years and menarche before twelve years. [31] Early puberty in girls can be a harbinger of later health problems. [32]

[michecon]

Where are the facts?

Go watch some stupid Taiwanese pop show before you comment on Chinese women's age.

BTW, I'm still being asked for DL every time. WTF!!

[DaDakota]

I am ignoring the facts to try to prove a point

Where are the facts?

Go watch some stupid Taiwanese pop show before you comment on Chinese women's age


They are underage, case closed.......read post number 46 above for the link to the article.....

Cheater cheater pumpkin eater !!

DD

[yuantian]

if the range is between 12 to 18 and half, i don't see why they can't be 15/16. and note the part about Asians being later. and also, food intake, and fat, that makes American girls go faster. i would say, it is significant enough cast doubt on these accusations.

WTF! why am i arguing about these stupid crap on girls puberty when i gotta go to work tomorrow. :mad: :mad: :mad:

stupid nbc accusations!!! waste of my time!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[LoveRoxHateJazz]

Has the thought of the Chinese government forcing Yao to sit out and miss the regular season/playoffs crossed anyone elses mind?

[DaDakota]

if the range is between 12 to 18 and half, i don't see why they can't be 15/16. and note the part about Asians being later. and also, food intake, and fat, that makes American girls go faster. i would say, it is significant enough cast doubt on these accusations.
Did you even READ the article posted above?

They are underage.....

The Chinese are cheating.

Period (which none of these girls has probably experienced).

:D

DD

[DaDakota]

I heard there is documentation they are way under 16......by a Chinese newspaper....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep here ya go, they are underage. (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/27/sports/OLY.php)

"The Times found two online records of official registration lists of Chinese gymnasts that list He's birthday as Jan. 1, 1994, which would make her 14. A 2007 national registry of Chinese gymnasts - now blocked in China but viewable through Google cache - shows He's birthday as "1994.1.1."

Another registration list that is unblocked, dated Jan. 27, 2006, regarding an intercity competition in Chengdu, China, also lists He's birthday as Jan. 1, 1994. That date differs by two years from the birth date of Jan. 1, 1992, listed on He's passport, which was issued Feb. 14, 2008."

"In Chinese newspaper profiles this year, He was listed as 14, too young for the Beijing Games."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly the Chinese authorities are cheating....why am I not surprised?

DD

For those too lazy to read......all the posts.

[halfbreed]

if the range is between 12 to 18 and half, i don't see why they can't be 15/16. and note the part about Asians being later. and also, food intake, and fat, that makes American girls go faster. i would say, it is significant enough cast doubt on these accusations.

WTF! why am i arguing about these stupid crap on girls puberty when i gotta go to work tomorrow. :mad: :mad: :mad:

stupid nbc accusations!!! waste of my time!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

You're continuing to ignore proof that they aren't of legal age. Why can't you just admit that China is using players that aren't allowed in the competition?

[AGBee]

PROOF SCHMOOF! The anecdotal evidence don't lie.

[yuantian]

Did you even READ the article posted above?

They are underage.....

The Chinese are cheating.

Period (which none of these girls has probably experienced).

:D

DD

i don't even care about cheating or not. like someone mentioned before, nadia won when she was 14. so the age rule is stupid.

i am just arguing the fact that people look at some picture and say they are certain of their age. but if you look at scientific fact, there are very high probability that they are 15/16.

[DaDakota]

i don't even care about cheating or not. like someone mentioned before, nadia won when she was 14. so the age rule is stupid.

i am just arguing the fact that people look at some picture and say they are certain of their age. but if you look at scientific fact, there are very high probability that they are 15/16.

Well that is a different argument all together......

Dropping the age requirement is fine by me....but that does not change the fact that China is clearly cheating here !!!!

;)

DD

[CometsWin]

Yall need to stop. It is a well established scientific fact that Chinese girls look younger than girls from every other country in the world.

[yuantian]

For those too lazy to read......all the posts.

http://www.healthr.com/user/upfile/24899-3e08e98e61c6e496bee6717c38d47017.jpg

is that the online source they found? nice PS job. :D

[rfila]

I am watching the game now. To me, that Shawn Johnson not only is so short, she also look younger than any other girl on the floor. It seems she has not got rid of the baby fat!

I believe she is 11 at most. Chinese cheat, American cheat more! But I won't complain if a 11 year old American beats those 16s and win a gold medal unless 11 year old is the best age for this game and those 16s were not allowed to compete when they were better athletes at 11.

[DaDakota]

http://www.healthr.com/user/upfile/24899-3e08e98e61c6e496bee6717c38d47017.jpg

is that the online source they found? nice PS job. :D

No doubt and the fact that the passport was issued THIS February even though they have been competing all over the world on OTHER passports....with their true age....

Yeah....wtf ever.

DD

[yuantian]

Well that is a different argument all together......

Dropping the age requirement is fine by me....but that does not change the fact that China is clearly cheating here !!!!

;)

DD

:D i said i wasn't really arguing about cheating or not. in the beginning i was, i guess. i said before that there were a couple that i thought were like 13/14.

but then some posters are making judgment based on some photos. you can't really tell someone's age by looking at freaking photos. that's why they check ID when you buy alcohol.

[michecon]

Test them bone age if they are serious about the enforcement.

BTW, I'm in the camp of ridding the age limit.

[DaDakota]

I am watching the game now. To me, that Shawn Johnson not only is so short, she also look younger than any other girl on the floor. It seems she has not got rid of the baby fat!

I believe she is 11 at most. Chinese cheat, American cheat more! But I won't complain if a 11 year old American beats those 16s and win a gold medal unless 11 year old is the best age for this game and those 16s were not allowed to compete when they were better athletes at 11.

Except that the US athletic federation has no ability to FORGE FAKE PASSPORTS like the Chinese do....or rather DID......

DD

[yuantian]

I am watching the game now. To me, that Shawn Johnson not only is so short, she also look younger than any other girl on the floor. It seems she has not got rid of the baby fat!

I believe she is 11 at most. Chinese cheat, American cheat more! But I won't complain if a 11 year old American beats those 16s and win a gold medal unless 11 year old is the best age for this game and those 16s were not allowed to compete when they were better athletes at 11.

isn't her coach a Chinese? maybe that's why she is like underage too. :D

[halfbreed]

i don't even care about cheating or not. like someone mentioned before, nadia won when she was 14. so the age rule is stupid.

i am just arguing the fact that people look at some picture and say they are certain of their age. but if you look at scientific fact, there are very high probability that they are 15/16.

LOL. Great post.

I'll break it down:

- You don't care that the Chinese are cheating.
- The rules shouldn't apply to Chinese because Nadia was awesome at 14.
- Despite factual evidence that the girls are under 15 and a half, scientifically, the only possible conclusion is that they are at least that old.

[sammy]

i was thinking the same thing

those girls look mad young

[yuantian]

LOL. Great post.

I'll break it down:

- You don't care that the Chinese are cheating.
- The rules shouldn't apply to Chinese because Nadia was awesome at 14.
- Despite factual evidence that the girls are under 15 and a half, scientifically, the only possible conclusion is that they are at least that old.

did you even read the scientific facts that i posted? how did your scientific facts prove otherwise?

as for cheating, i am not convinced that Johnson is old enough. don't give the crap that US don't make fake ID. if you really want something, you can get it here.

[yuantian]

http://www.nextdayid.com/age-identification.htm

:D

oh crap. it's not American ID. LMAO. just shot myself in the foot. :D

[halfbreed]

did you even read the scientific facts that i posted? how did your scientific facts prove otherwise?

as for cheating, i am not convinced that Johnson is old enough. don't give the crap that US don't make fake ID. if you really want something, you can get it here.

I thought you just said you can't tell someone's age by looking at them? What about Shawn Johnson makes you think she's not of age? The USOC isn't dumb enough to cheat in these competitions knowing that the microscope is going to be on US athletes.

As for your "scientific facts," you posted a wikipedia article stating general trends. DaDakota and others have posted actual documented evidence that THESE PARTICULAR GIRLS are not of age.

[yuantian]

I thought you just said you can't tell someone's age by looking at them? What about Shawn Johnson makes you think she's not of age? The USOC isn't dumb enough to cheat in these competitions knowing that the microscope is going to be on US athletes.

As for your "scientific facts," you posted a wikipedia article stating general trends. DaDakota and others have posted actual documented evidence that THESE PARTICULAR GIRLS are not of age.

documented evidence? i don't believe anything people say on the internet anymore. humph! if they were making fake age, why don't they do a good job and get rid of the old ones? did they decide to leave a trail just so someone can find out they cheated?

[rfila]

Except that the US athletic federation has no ability to FORGE FAKE PASSPORTS like the Chinese do....or rather DID......
DD

Did I say USAF cheat? It could be SJ's parents cheat! They somehow got an birth certificate for her many years before she was born! or many be SJ was the one cheats. She stole the passport from here older sister!(or her neighbour).

Actually I do not know who cheat or how they cheat. But Shawn Johnson can not be older than 11, that is what it matters! Well actually it doesn't matter, what matters is American cheat!

[real_egal]

15 is ok as long as they turn 16 in 2008. I don't know how many different competitions these girls enter, but their ages are verified so whatever they competed in, they were allowed to. For example:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_controversies_in_gymnastics

And the 16 year olds were participating in Junior events, not senior events 2 years ago, nice try though. Their ages aren't magically changing in time for the Olympic games. You can read their bios and see where they've competed here:
http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/NationalTeam.aspx?prog=w&h=975

Who prosecuted Jones, the US govt did. Lance Armstrong has been tested and tested and never failed. And the 41 year old swimmer went above and beyond and enrolled into extra testing in a voluntary program and even then the US media has questioned her.

The only person outright accusing them is Bela, don't act like Costas has said "I believe" they are younger. He's just reporting the story that exists.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html?_r=3&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

See, nobody is just accusing them on tv based on their looks, as suspicious looking as they are, it's based on China's own websites.

I didn't know that 2007 World Gemnastics Championship was a junior event. Wasn't Johnson Shawn a key member of that championship team? Born in 1992, I would assume that she was 15 in 2007, no?

You are right that US government prosecuted Jones, just like China banned those caught with dopping abuse. But before that, so many rumors circled around players like Jones or Christie, I don't see NBC running with those "I believe" stories, on the contrary, those athletes were featured in media for so many times, to accuse athletes from other countries to use performance enhancement drugs, and they were the examples of leading clean and fair competition.

Sure that Costas just "reports" existing stories. You mean that Costas who claimed "no matter what difference we have, it's the time to come together", but hey i can't help to talk about something bad politically in every country except for US - Costas? You mean that Costas, even 12 years ago, couldn't stomach to give any praise to Chinese? - They did well, but hey look how mechanical they are, they are forced to train long hours everyday blah blah. You mean the Costas who tried so hard to be Tim Russert, and forgot he was hired to commentating sports? You mean Costas, after President Bush told him that it's important to show respect to the people if you want to engage with them, kept asking whether the president pressed Chinese about Tibet?

BTW, where were those posters whinning about Yao holding the torch while having Mao's picture behind him? How come I don't hear them whinning about President Bush was on TV having Mao's picture behind him? How come I don't hear them whinning about Costas reporting everyday having Mao watching over his shoulders?

I thought the credibility of Chinese media or anything Chinese related were totally ignored by some posters here, but all of the sudden one news report is your "hard" evidence?

To me, first, I think this whole turning 16 in Olympics year thing was a joke. Second, if you go on to national TV to call one country is cheating, you need something more than "I believe". But that's just me.

[DaDakota]

Well actually it doesn't matter, what matters is American cheat!

Ok, link please, as we provided.

Thanks,

DD

[rocks_fan]

documented evidence? i don't believe anything people say on the internet anymore. humph! if they were making fake age, why don't they do a good job and get rid of the old ones? did they decide to leave a trail just so someone can find out they cheated?

So you don't believe the official Chinese news agency and official Chinese web sites (taken from DaDa's article) that state that the gymnasts are under age? Or is it that someone Rather'd the articles and posted them in the cache of the web sites for inquisitive journalists to find? Or could it be that you just plugging your ears and going "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" about this whole thing?

Personally I wouldn't care if the girls were 10 or 40 if there were no age restrictions. However, there is a rule that clearly limits who can and can not participate. If they break the rule, they should be punished.

[yuantian]

SJ is 16 and half. last year, she was 15 when she competed in World Championship games. So she should be able to compete if the same rule applies because she won't turn 16 in the same year.

so in that case, this Olympics rule is either newly added or totally stupid. if they just added it, that would totally screw up some country's preparation.

[yuantian]

So you don't believe the official Chinese news agency and official Chinese web sites (taken from DaDa's article) that state that the gymnasts are under age? Or is it that someone Rather'd the articles and posted them in the cache of the web sites for inquisitive journalists to find? Or could it be that you just plugging your ears and going "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" about this whole thing?

Personally I wouldn't care if the girls were 10 or 40 if there were no age restrictions. However, there is a rule that clearly limits who can and can not participate. If they break the rule, they should be punished.

no, i believe EVEN LESS about Chinese source. so many Chinese news agency pull some **** out of their ass just to piss people off so they can get more readers.

[AGBee]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2

"Yang Yun of China won individual and team bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and later said in an interview on state-run television that she had been 14 at the time of those Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report also said later that she had been 14 when she competed in Sydney."

As JYD posted, there's a precedent for this type of cheating by the Chinese before, so let's drop the feigned shock and indignation and just admit that it might be possible that it's going on again.

[yuantian]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2

"Yang Yun of China won individual and team bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and later said in an interview on state-run television that she had been 14 at the time of those Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report also said later that she had been 14 when she competed in Sydney."

As JYD posted, there's a precedent for this type of cheating by the Chinese before, so let's drop the feigned shock and indignation and just admit that it might be possible that it's going on again.

it happens all the time man. in africa, asia, europe, latin america, probably even in US. but just because it happened before, you can't just say for sure, it's happening again.

[rfila]

Ok, link please, as we provided.

Thanks,

DD

link? Why would I(or you) need link if I believe SJ is no older than 11? If you insists you need a link before believe what I believe. I may write an article on another site then link it here if you pay me for my writing.

But I wouldn't think a link means a sh1t, really.

[DaDakota]

link? Why would I(or you) need link if I believe SJ is no older than 11? If you insists you need a link before believe what I believe. I may write an article on another site then link it here if you pay me for my writing.

But I wouldn't think a link means a sh1t, really.

It is ok, I know you are just embarrased that China is clearly cheating....no biggie...I will send you a big old internet hug.

;)

DD

[halfbreed]

link? Why would I(or you) need link if I believe SJ is no older than 11? If you insists you need a link before believe what I believe. I may write an article on another site then link it here if you pay me for my writing.

But I wouldn't think a link means a sh1t, really.

Maybe she is part Chinese and she got the "we look younger than every other girl on Earth" genes. That would be awesome.

[yuantian]

whatever man. explain why SJ competed in world championships last year when she wasn't going to be 16 in the same year.

[DaDakota]

whatever man. explain why SJ competed in world championships last year when she wasn't going to be 16 in the same year.


The world championships are not the Olympics silly...

DD

[Storm Surge]

This stuff happens a lot. Just look at Tejada.

But I personally don't see the importance in having an age limit.

[DaDakota]

This stuff happens a lot. Just look at Tejada.

But I personally don't see the importance in having an age limit.


I think most agree with you, but maybe the IOC has real reasons for implementing one?

The NBA put an age limit in......maybe the IOC got jealous?

DD

[halfbreed]

This stuff happens a lot. Just look at Tejada.

But I personally don't see the importance in having an age limit.

Agreed. I don't think anyone here is arguing for the age limit, though.

The main issue is that there are rules and everyone should follow them. This includes the host country.

[yuantian]

The world championships are not the Olympics silly...

DD

then i see this rule extremely unfair and only limits the Chinese team. which country would keep two teams? one for world championships and one older team for the Olympics? if the rule is unfair, why the hell should they follow it.

[halfbreed]

then i see this rule extremely unfair and only limits the Chinese team. which country would keep two teams? one for world championships and one older team for the Olympics? if the rule is unfair, why the hell should they follow it.

How in the world does a rule only limit one team?

[yuantian]

How in the world does a rule only limit one team?

maybe because these younger girls were better and were chosen. who knows. anyway, i am tired and gotta work tomorrow. it's been fun talking about some weird stuff tonight. :D

[Kam]

You didn't know the world was out to get China?


No one emailed you about it?

[halfbreed]

SJ is 16 and half. last year, she was 15 when she competed in World Championship games. So she should be able to compete if the same rule applies because she won't turn 16 in the same year.

so in that case, this Olympics rule is either newly added or totally stupid. if they just added it, that would totally screw up some country's preparation.

I can't believe I just spent this long researching this. Here are the rules:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_controversies_in_gymnastics


Currently, as per the 1997 regulation, gymnasts must be at least 16 years of age, or turning 16 within the calendar year, to compete in senior-level events. For the current Olympic cycle, in order to compete in the 2008 Olympics, a gymnast must have a birth date before January 1, 1993. There is no maximum age restriction, and some gymnasts compete well into their 20s. The oldest female gymnast currently competing in senior international events is Germany's Oksana Chusovitina[9], who was born in 1975, and was 33 years, 1 month old at the 2008 Summer Olympics. She was 17 years, 1 month old at her first Olympics, the 1992 Summer Olympics.

Legal exceptions

The one exception to this rule applies to the year before the Olympics, when gymnasts who are one year below the required age, but will be the required age in the Olympic year, may compete as seniors at the World Championships and other FIG meets. For instance, gymnasts born in 1977 were allowed to compete at senior events in 1991, when they were 14 or turning 14 within the calendar year. Within the current cycle, gymnasts born in 1992 were permitted to compete as seniors in 2007. This is permitted to allow nations to qualify to the Olympics with their best teams, and to give emerging gymnasts some experience in major competition before the Olympics. However, the FIG is considering eliminating this exception.

In addition, the age requirement technically only applies to meets which are sanctioned and regulated directly by the FIG: the Olympics, the World Championships and the World Cup circuit. Many other meets, such as the European Championships, have separate divisions for juniors. Additionally, some competitions, such as the Goodwill Games, the Pam Am Games, the Pacific Rim Championships and the All-Africa Games, have rules that permit seniors and juniors to compete together.

More sourcing: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/olympics/2007-12/04/content_6297534.htm

[DaDakota]

Wait, so the rule is only for China?

Because here in the USA, we are holding back on our 14 year old stud gymnists......because we follow the rules baby.

;)

How old is Yi these days anyway?

:D

DD

[rfila]

It is ok, I know you are just embarrased that China is clearly cheating....no biggie...I will send you a big old internet hug.

;)

DD

OK, DD ;)

Seriously, I myself can not tell if they are 16. They look younger than the average Chinese girls, but that doesn't mean they are not 16s. A lot of girls trained at very young age. And this sport favors those who are short and biologically develop slow(I am not sure if that is the right expression, hope you understand what I mean). So, it is not really surprising that some of them look younger than they actually are.

I just find it funny when that guy want people to judge those girls age by "look at them". He really lost his credibility when he says something like that as a specialist in this sport.

[Lil Pun]

Too bad I missed the start of this thread. I was stating to my girlfriend when watching the competition that those girls on China's team looked 10 or 11 years old. I don't think they are of age but I won't say they aren't for sure.

[Man]

Same with above poster, didn't read the entire thread, but saw the Chinese female gymnasts, and while it seems like lots of the Olympian female gymnasts are young, the female gymnasts from China's team look REALLY young.

just an observation, not making any assumptions or accusations.

[rocks_fan]

Did I say USAF cheat? It could be SJ's parents cheat! They somehow got an birth certificate for her many years before she was born! or many be SJ was the one cheats. She stole the passport from here older sister!(or her neighbour).

Actually I do not know who cheat or how they cheat. But Shawn Johnson can not be older than 11, that is what it matters! Well actually it doesn't matter, what matters is American cheat!

So, SJ's parents knew that not only was she going to be a gymnast, but that the IOC would pass a rule that would disqualify her and that therefore they would have to get their hands on a blank birth certificate JUST IN CASE.

BTW, Shawn Johnson doesn't have an older sister. Unless her parents keep her locked up in the attic to keep people from asking quesitons! Of course, it all makes sense now!

What color is the sky on your planet, and how did the black helicopters end up there?

There's being a Devil's Advocate, then there's being contrarian to the point of sounding ignorant. Coming up with ludicrous arguments in a lame attempt to deflect attention from the issue at hand is rediculous.

[rfila]

So, SJ's parents knew that not only was she going to be a gymnast, but that the IOC would pass a rule that would disqualify her and that therefore they would have to get their hands on a blank birth certificate JUST IN CASE.

BTW, Shawn Johnson doesn't have an older sister. Unless her parents keep her locked up in the attic to keep people from asking quesitons! Of course, it all makes sense now!

What color is the sky on your planet, and how did the black helicopters end up there?

There's being a Devil's Advocate, then there's being contrarian to the point of sounding ignorant. Coming up with ludicrous arguments in a lame attempt to deflect attention from the issue at hand is rediculous.

It is possible that SJ's parents had multiple blanket birth certificates for unknown reasons and one of those happens to be useful for the Olympics, you never know. Also, don't believe SJ does not have any sister. If she can lie about her age, she can lie about the number of her sister. And I also believe she has neighbours who are older women than she is at sometime of her life.

Don't discourage me. I am just trying to keep up with the board. Once I believe something, nobody is going to change my mind. In this case, SJ is no older than 11!!

[AGBee]

Don't discourage me. I am just trying to keep up with the board. Once I believe something, nobody is going to change my mind. In this case, SJ is no older than 11!!

The Special Olympics are -----> that way.

[rfila]

The Special Olympics are -----> that way.

We got a qualifier here!

[RedRaiderRocket]

I like many posters think these girls are younger than the 16 year old limit, with the side if some 14 or younger girl can win the gold why stop them. You want the best competitors representing your country in the olympics.

[Bandwagoner]

If it is true I really don;t see a problem with it. Except the cheating aspect.

I mean they train when they are old enough to walk so its not cruel or anything.

[DreamRoxCoogFan]

It is possible that SJ's parents had multiple blanket birth certificates for unknown reasons and one of those happens to be useful for the Olympics, you never know. Also, don't believe SJ does not have any sister. If she can lie about her age, she can lie about the number of her sister. And I also believe she has neighbours who are older women than she is at sometime of her life.

Don't discourage me. I am just trying to keep up with the board. Once I believe something, nobody is going to change my mind. In this case, SJ is no older than 11!!

this is like the most ridiculous post I have ever read on here... even with this being a Rockets board (trade proposals, etc), and with me having read this forum for many years.

[rfila]

this is like the most ridiculous post I have ever read on here... even with this being a Rockets board (trade proposals, etc), and with me having read this forum for many years.

It meant to be ridiculous. But it can't be the MOST ridiculous one even if you have only read this thread. And you said you have read this forum for many years?

[Yonkers]

I think it's funny that those of you who would accuse the Chinese of making up documents would link to supposed Chinese documents as proof. And not even the real documents, just some cache of it.
I'm not arguing either way or the other, but it's funny what some people will ignore to win their argument.

[Deckard]

it's funny what some people will ignore to win their argument.
Isn't it?

[ucsd]

Yea, Yao is actually 14 too, they lie so he can got drafted to play for NBA :D

[Pest_Ctrl]

Yea, Yao is actually 14 too, they lie so he can got drafted to play for NBA :D

Then we should keep him until 2028, and we will build a dynasty longer than the Celtics' one around him. :D

[danny317]

asians age very very well...

im 28 and i still get carded at rated R movies, buying smokes and alcohol...

but i also wouldnt be surprised if the chinese were younger that theyre represented to be.

[Royals Ego]

and greg oden is 35+ years old

[rhadamanthus]

Quell my shock: Yuantian is posting absurdly irrational defenses of China on the clutch bbs. :rolleyes:

[Behad]

just because Asian girls are smaller,

How does this explain the Chinese Women's Volleyball Team?
http://images.beijing2008.cn/20080103/Img214225368.jpg
http://images.beijing2008.cn/20080103/Img214225369.jpg

[rocketsjudoka]

no, i believe EVEN LESS about Chinese source. so many Chinese news agency pull some **** out of their ass just to piss people off so they can get more readers.

So you don't believe US media because they are biased, you don't believe Chinese media because they are out to piss people off. You might as well make up your own news.

[yuantian]

oh come on now. cut me some slack. :D

as for those volleyball players, why would they pick smaller statued girls to play? of course they are going to pick the big ones.

and yes, i only read news for entertainment, not for truth. i make up my own mind on a lot of things after reading a lot stuff. even books are only the opinion of the authors. i don't believe something just because someone else said so. in real life though, i will believe anything you say if you are convincing enough. :D

[Behad]

as for those volleyball players, why would they pick smaller statued girls to play? of course they are going to pick the big ones.



I never suggested that China would pick smaller girls for volleyball. You said:
Originally Posted by yuantian
just because Asian girls are smaller,

and I asked how Asian VB girls got so tall?

[rage]

I heard there is documentation they are way under 16......by a Chinese newspaper....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep here ya go, they are underage.

"The Times found two online records of official registration lists of Chinese gymnasts that list He's birthday as Jan. 1, 1994, which would make her 14. A 2007 national registry of Chinese gymnasts - now blocked in China but viewable through Google cache - shows He's birthday as "1994.1.1."

Another registration list that is unblocked, dated Jan. 27, 2006, regarding an intercity competition in Chengdu, China, also lists He's birthday as Jan. 1, 1994. That date differs by two years from the birth date of Jan. 1, 1992, listed on He's passport, which was issued Feb. 14, 2008."

"In Chinese newspaper profiles this year, He was listed as 14, too young for the Beijing Games."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly the Chinese authorities are cheating....why am I not surprised?

DD

These "evidences" are pretty flimsy!
All I read is an web article citing other stories on the net alleging some age questions. You don't even the original stories, and those in themselves are questionable as best.
You are so quick to believe anything on the net as long as they agreed with your cases. At other times, when the articles come from China disagree with your view point, you are very quick to dismiss them just because they came from China ...
How about showing better evidences? If you don't have anything else, how about going with the official line:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/sports/olympics/10age.html

[DaDakota]

These "evidences" are pretty flimsy!
All I read is an web article citing other stories on the net alleging some age questions. You don't even the original stories, and those in themselves are questionable as best.
You are so quick to believe anything on the net as long as they agreed with your cases. At other times, when the articles come from China disagree with your view point, you are very quick to dismiss them just because they came from China ...
How about showing better evidences? If you don't have anything else, how about going with the official line:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/sports/olympics/10age.html

Yeah, the NY Times is flimsy....

Come on....the Chinese federation has been caught cheating....big deal....

They were issued passports that changed their birthdates, THIS FEBRUARY.....

Anyway, honestly, they should just allow anyone to be in the olympics regardless of age, though I don't understand the entire process and why the rules were implemented.

I don't care all that much anyway......just having fun watching people squirm and try to cover up for their countries...OBVIOUS cheat.

You guys act like the cheating by the Chinese federation is a reflection on the entire Chinese culture....

:D

DD

[Franchise3]

The (presumably) Chinese posters in this thread are really grasping at straws. It's quite painful to watch, really.

[Behad]

Here's the question I have....if these girls were just issued passports in February, how did they travel to their international meets last year without a passport?

[DaDakota]

Here's the question I have....if these girls were just issued passports in February, how did they travel to their international meets last year without a passport?

They used their REAL passports with their correct birthdates.......which started this whole controversy.

The Chinese federation is cheating it is obvious.

DD

[JuanValdez]

If children have an advantage over young adults in your sport, there's a problem with the sport.

[rage]

Yeah, the NY Times is flimsy....

Once in a while, before you have an opinion, you should try to read the entire article ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/sports/olympics/10age.html

[real_egal]

They used their REAL passports with their correct birthdates.......which started this whole controversy.

The Chinese federation is cheating it is obvious.

DD

DD, you never had a passport before, and it never expires?

From the article you linked, I could see that IOC is officially fine with the age of those Chinese girls. FIG is officially fine with the age of them, and the president of US Gymnastics is fine with it. But Karolyi believed Chinese are cheating, so his belief weighs more than any official bodies? He was basically saying that he used to cheat all the time in East Europe, so China must be cheating now?

It cracked me back when Costas interviewed him yesterday in NBC, he claimed the current judging system left lots of room for cheating. Of course, he didn't want to say that East European countries are the most powerful bodies in international gymnastics stage, including governing officials and judges. After US girls fell to 2nd place in qualifications, he came out with all these built-in excuses? Where was he when 15 year old US girls won World Championship in 2007? The same judging system is fine as long as US are winning, but not fair EVEN when Chinese are just leading in qualifications? Where was he when 14/15 year old Romanian girls won Gold medals?

BTW, Enrico Casella, the coach of the Italian women’s team, was quoted following in the same article: “By looks, you could say that the United States is using doping,” Casella said. “They are so muscular. My gymnasts in Italy aren’t that big. You begin to wonder how they got that way.”

Of course, if it comes to US, it's innocent till proven guilty. When it comes to China, if it's negative, it must be true.

[davidwu]

You need to go back to college and study statistics harder, ;)

Chinese women are averagely shorter than Americans, so it's much easier to finder shorter girls at their 16. And given 1.3 billion population, it's even easier to finder shorter girls for gymnastics and still have a decent chance to find tall girls for volleyball/basketball, etc.

Anyway, my two cents in this story:

1. Chinese people, especially women, looks younger in your eyes. Just like American girls look much older than their real age when I fist came to USA. Believe me, when I first watched those "barely legal" video, I though I was robbed as most of them looked 25+ to me, :D But I have learned to add a few years in my mind after. Sorry I digress, but the point is I could see these girls are in their 15-16.

2. Could the IDs of these girls be faked? I wouldn't be surprised if it is either, just like the controversial ages of Yi, and other Chinese basketball/soccer players, or like I wouldn't be surprised that if many track&field, swimming, cycling, weight lifting athletics, Chinese or non- are doping one way or another.

3. They age limit is stupid, just like the limit of one player/pair for each table tennis competition. On a lesser scale, I don't understand why weight lifting/boxing have so many classes while high/long jump can only have one. Otherwise I may have a chance to compete at a higher level, ;)

I never suggested that China would pick smaller girls for volleyball. You said:


and I asked how Asian VB girls got so tall?

[moestavern19]

1. Chinese people, especially women, looks younger in your eyes. Just like American girls look much older than their real age when I fist came to USA. Believe me, when I first watched those "barely legal" video, I though I was robbed as most of them looked 25+ to me, :D

LOL.

yeah I wouldn't trust a "barely legal" porn vid as a barometer of what American girls at that age look like. A lot of those "18 and horny" chicks have been 18 and horny for about 7 years, pigtails and botox will help the cause.



Its pretty subjective really, I have seen 18 year old chicks who looked like they were 12, and some that looked like they were 28.

[rage]

How does this explain the Chinese Women's Volleyball Team?

A Chinese guy at work once told me, the Chinese from the North are pretty tall, 6 foot+ are pretty common he said. The ones from the South are much shorter, in general.

[generalthade_03]

Everyday I come to this forum to LOL at the irrational, paranoid, schizophrenia Chinese posters!

Thank you my fellow Americans, Texans or Houstonians( if you're happened to be in H-town) to keep the Chinese posters honest.

A special thanks to DaDa for the above and beyond the call of duty to provide proofs, your heroic, herculean effort is much

appreciated.

" One World One Dream"

MY ASS !!!!!!

[pmac]

LOL.

yeah I wouldn't trust a "barely legal" porn vid as a barometer of what American girls at that age look like. A lot of those "18 and horny" chicks have been 18 and horny for about 7 years, pigtails and botox will help the cause.



Its pretty subjective really, I have seen 18 year old chicks who looked like they were 12, and some that looked like they were 28.

Thank you moes for your in depth analysis of the "barely legal" porn videos. I respect the posters who take the time to enlighten those who aren't as knowledgeable as themselves on certain topics. :p :D

[ucsd]

1. Chinese people, especially women, looks younger in your eyes. Just like American girls look much older than their real age when I fist came to USA. Believe me, when I first watched those "barely legal" video, I though I was robbed as most of them looked 25+ to me, :D But I have learned to add a few years in my mind after. Sorry I digress, but the point is I could see these girls are in their 15-16.



Agree, when I first came to US for high school, I was like Wow Wow Wow, look at those boobs, they are much fully developed than a 25+ Chinese girl. also some girl look even like 30 or 40 at least.

[rrj_gamz]

I heard about this at lunch...

IIRC, didn't the province paper say she was 14? it was a bio on the girl and the paper was proud and was just being honest...

Bottom line, they cheated, period end of story...Now, if anything is done about it, well, that's a different story...

[zoids]

If you're saying this with a straight face, let me know so I can disregard anything you say in the future.

Look it's one thing for you to argue there should be no age limit. Do not tell me that those girls are all of legal age for the competition. They aren't. I would bet every dollar I've ever made on that.

Are you from another world? Haven't seen any asian in your whole life? :eek:

[Major Malcontent]

I am shocked, SHOCKED that there are Chinese posters on Clutchfans who refuse to believe anything that might put China in an unfavorable light.

Course there are also American posters who if we started bombing Canada tomorrow for having tuque's of mass destruction, would say "Of course we are justified, those winter hats threaten Democracy itself".

I don't see a huge advantage in using underage athletes. (The gymnastic commentators made mention of younger athletes being at an advantage because there are only so many times the human body can stand the intense strain of competing at that level.)

That said if they are willing to disqualify people for other things..an age rule violation seems like could have some serious consequences.

[MoonBus]

If children have an advantage over young adults in your sport, there's a problem with the sport.

This is so true that it needs to be stated again.

[Isabel]

The age falsification thing is well known in gymnastics; it's not China's first time to do it, and the Romanians used to do it on a regular basis. It's easy enough to prove; earlier competition records show the person's actual age (or closer to it) and then all of a sudden a couple of extra years get added on. Many ex-gymnasts will admit it. (Not to mention what are the odds of so many people being born on January 1?)

The reason for the age limits in gymnastics is to make sure it is a women's sport instead of a girls' sport. Younger girls tend to be more flexible and have fewer chronic injuries, even if they don't have the maturity and training. Back when the age limits were lower by a couple of years, there was still some age falsification, and I remember hearing one gymnast referred to as "ancient" for still competing at 19. Things are a little better now in that a lot of champion gymnasts are about 20.

Having no age limits or low age limits tends to encourage starting girls very, very young, overtraining them, and using them up by their mid- to late teens. Chronic injuries still tend to be a problem, and many of them haven't known what to do with themselves after leaving the sport. It still seems cruel that, between the nature of women growing less flexible as they age and the unfair emphasis on something that happens once every four years, girls may only have one shot at Olympic glory. One of our current team members was a world champion before and after 2004 but was injured at just the wrong time to make the Athens Olympic team; she took the unusual step of hanging in there four more years and made this one, but now some injuries have hit at just the wrong time and she's not able to compete much. :(

It's not a perfect world, but I still favor the age limit in that it seems to have been able to buy a little time for gymnasts to grow up. With appropriate rest and careful training, some gymnasts can extend their careers well into adulthood (Germany's Oksana Chusovitina is 33). The current U.S. system does not encourage this, however, because of overtraining during Olympic years. My opinion on what's happening here and happened in 2004 is that they have these girls peak for Nationals, Trials, and Selection Camp all in the same year, fight to get selected for the team at each of these stages, and then are supposed to have the energy left to peak for the Olympics, and (more difficult) to not be hurt. The injuries show up late after the team has been named, or has started podium training and cannot replace a girl with an alternate, and you end up with situations like you saw last night. Not to mention that, once somebody is on the Olympic team, she's going to want to fight through whatever injury she has to compete, so some of the ones who are still competing are more hurt than they appear. Fortunately, as far as I know, Shawn and Nastia are OK. Nastia qualified for three event finals and 2nd going into All-Around, and she was one of the 14-year-olds we had to leave off the team in Athens. At least at 18 she can do women's instead of girls' gymnastics.

(that said, I don't blame the Chinese girls... they were pretty much put in line and told what to do, it's not the girls' fault...)

[SwoLy-D]

When the fack is this effin' thread moving to the D&D...? Get it out of here!
:(

Is there anything about poop/relationships/HDTV/soccer/FireFox/cwebbster's_girlfriends in this thread? If no, then it doesn't belong in the Hangout. :mad:

[lalala902102001]

So from this thread we learned that gymnastics is evil and should therefore be banned as a sport for the well-beings of young teenagers.

Awesome.

[ucirat]

They used their REAL passports with their correct birthdates.......which started this whole controversy.

The Chinese federation is cheating it is obvious.

DD

lol typical western propaganda talk, any proof? no?

[DaDakota]

lol typical western propaganda talk, any proof? no?

Read the entire thread tons of proof.......

Now ask me if we here in the USA, really care?

Nope, not one bit.

But we know China is cheating.

DD

[Oski2005]

It cracked me back when Costas interviewed him yesterday in NBC, he claimed the current judging system left lots of room for cheating. Of course, he didn't want to say that East European countries are the most powerful bodies in international gymnastics stage, including governing officials and judges. After US girls fell to 2nd place in qualifications, he came out with all these built-in excuses? Where was he when 15 year old US girls won World Championship in 2007?

Didn't I post the rule on that a few pages ago? If it is a year before the Olympic games, 15 year olds can compete in World events. 2007 is one year before the 2008 games. 2008-2007= 1

The Chinese team's website listed them as 14, there's no getting around that.

[ucirat]

Read the entire thread tons of proof.......

Now ask me if we here in the USA, really care?

Nope, not one bit.

But we know China is cheating.

DD

oh yes, tons of proof "out there" heh, too bad u can't find any, lmao

[AGBee]

Didn't I post the rule on that a few pages ago? If it is a year before the Olympic games, 15 year olds can compete in World events. 2007 is one year before the 2008 games. 2008-2007= 1

The Chinese team's website listed them as 14, there's no getting around that.

STOP POSTING FACTS! It gets in the way of the truth.

[halfbreed]

oh yes, tons of proof "out there" heh, too bad u can't find any, lmao

Did you read the thread? There's documented evidence. How much more proof do you want?

[JunkyardDwg]

oh yes, tons of proof "out there" heh, too bad u can't find any, lmao


Did you actually read the articles posted?


Personally, I don't really care too much...the gold medal is there for the taking for the US...the only thing that'll doom them is their own mistakes (like in qualifications).

But refusing to believe the possibility that there could be foul play involved in light of the evidence is pretty naive.

[ClutchCity3]

nice, another way to against Chinese.

YEP, U.S ARE STRONGEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, SO YOU HAPPY NOW!

:o

[AGBee]

lol typical western propaganda talk, any proof? no?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/s...gewanted=2&_r=2

"Yang Yun of China won individual and team bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and later said in an interview on state-run television that she had been 14 at the time of those Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report also said later that she had been 14 when she competed in Sydney."

So when the competitors themselves come out and say, "Hey, I was 14 during the Olympics", is that proof enough? To me, that's pretty strong evidence that the Chinese have used underaged girls, and sets a precedent for them doing it again.

Like most have said, nobody really cares. It's just the fierce denials from some posters that have been amusing.

[ClutchCity3]

nice, another way to against Chinese.

YEP, U.S IS STRONGEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, SO YOU HAPPY NOW!

:o

EDITED.

[halfbreed]

I am shocked, SHOCKED that there are Chinese posters on Clutchfans who refuse to believe anything that might put China in an unfavorable light.

Course there are also American posters who if we started bombing Canada tomorrow for having tuque's of mass destruction, would say "Of course we are justified, those winter hats threaten Democracy itself".

I don't see a huge advantage in using underage athletes. (The gymnastic commentators made mention of younger athletes being at an advantage because there are only so many times the human body can stand the intense strain of competing at that level.)

That said if they are willing to disqualify people for other things..an age rule violation seems like could have some serious consequences.

What in the world does this have to do with America invading China? This really doesn't have anything to do with America at all. It's all about the host country, China, being caught violating the rules of the Olympics.

There is a huge advantage to using younger athletes in gymnastics. You even posted that the commentators pointed it out. Are you somehow more of an expert than they are?

All this being said, I don't think there should be an age limit. They're already training these girls at age 3 so we aren't protecting them from anything. In the end, though, rules are rules. Why is it alright for China to break the rules? Why are those of us who have a problem with them cheating all of a sudden labeled as jingoists who will support full invasion of Canada?

Are you from another world? Haven't seen any asian in your whole life? :eek:

Yeah, I have. I've also seen 15 year old Chinese girls and they look nothing like these girls.

[ClutchCity3]

Age does play a factor no matter what sport. It goes back to Personal Development and Relationship classes. The body isn't fully capable to of competing to it's fullest, giving the athlete a disadvantage, and there is a greater ratio of injury compared to older individuals, when the younger individuals compete and push their bodies to the extreme. Also it can limit their potential as well.

[DaDakota]

That is IT !!!

Due to the clear violation of the Chinese Cheating Federation, we the Clutchfans of America are officially recognizing Taiwan as it's own country.

Take that !!!

;)

DD

[SevereCr1tic]

Everyday I come to this forum to LOL at the irrational, paranoid, schizophrenia Chinese posters!

Thank you my fellow Americans, Texans or Houstonians( if you're happened to be in H-town) to keep the Chinese posters honest.

A special thanks to DaDa for the above and beyond the call of duty to provide proofs, your heroic, herculean effort is much

appreciated.

" One World One Dream"

MY ASS !!!!!!

You just came over to insult the other nationality of people, didn't you? Your posts are always full of hate against the Chinese people. I can still remember your eggroll post which filled with racial hatred against the Chinese people not long ago. What's up with it? If you have to spread racial hate on the internet anonymously, I have to say you are a loser. Know what? It's weak to hide behind your monitor to attack the other people just because you hate them. Why don't you go over to tell that to one of them in his face, use your cell phone to record it along the process and post it here for us to watch? Are you too timid and weak to do that?

As far as I can remember, you are also a minority. So how did you become a minority racist? Do you discriminate against your father and your mother too because they are also minorities? Do you discriminate against yourself? Do you wake up every day in the morning, look in the mirror and tell yourself that you suck because you are a minority? I am very curious to know.

[SageHare6]

WHOA!

For a Olympics topic, I sure didn't foresee this volume of replies.

Personally, I'm not sure what to make of this for a number of reasons.

1. Age stats for Chinese athletes seems to be oftentimes murky.
Take Yi Jianling for example. I remember when the Bucks were scouting him, no one knew for sure how old/young he actually was. 22? 19? 24?
2. At least in Taiwan, when you are born your age is ONE, not zero
(I think it's the same in the PRC.) So issues of being 16, when one is really 15, I wonder if there is confusion here too on the rules.

What I hate seeing in the press, and this is entirely imho, is when the writers spin this issue into one of child exploitation against the child. Those kinds of moral judgements verge on the political, and for the Olympics, much like all the talk about social injustices and human rights issues, I think are best LEFT OUT of these couple of weeks of great competition and international goodwill. Is the child really being exploited at the expense of the child? I won't even dare to say. But cheating to win... this I take great exception to for the same reason why I feel those many many players who take steroids in the MLB ought to be ashamed for themselves.

Rules of the game are meant to be there. Else, the game is an unfair one at best. If rules are so easily broken much less bent, then why would anyone in their right mind even try to participate? It corrupts the sport. It corrupts the game. And heck there's so many other games to participate in that even if the Olympic committee fails to investigate it, as a next generation Olympian, I would say "screw that", screw gymnastics, I'll go for swimming instead.

I hope that this accusation against China is indeed NOT true as I give CHina the benefit of the doubt that they are more honorable than the press gives them credit for. If it IS true, then it's a failure for the Olympic committee to not be cracking down on this. From looks alone, honestly, I can't tell. Anyone who says they can identify a 16 year cut off age is being as foolish as saying that they can spot the lone gay athlete in this entire Olympics.

Again, we don't know yet whether this is true or not. If cheating is indeed happenning, then the ills run higher still to those accomplices (Doctors, gov't people, etc.) who doctored the application forms to get these athletes in the events.

My other question to all is, if indeed this IS true, does it warrant taking BACK any medals that otherwise were legitimately won?

theSAGE

[michecon]

Why are you guys playing the IOC judges? :confused:

[mic]

I'm Korean, albeit 1/2, and I'll admit... I still get carded for buying R-rated DVDs at Walmart. When asked how old I am, I say, "23." Then I get laughed at, and I'm asked to show ID. Pretty bad. However, at the age of 15-16, I did not look nearly as young as the girls on the Chinese gymnastics team. Obviously, the comparison is nothing close to actual proof, but only an observation. Those girls look young. Before hitting puberty, the changes are pretty obvious, but after that, okay, yeah, your body might not have changed much. Yes, Asians typically age well, but not THAT well. Not during those ages. And since the argument has been put forth not just in terms of Chinese girls, but "Asian" girls in general, please don't turn this into a Korean vs. Chinese thing.

[Xenochimera]

http://www.lolsauce.com/RandomBS/Pedo%20bear.png

[halfbreed]

Everyone on here saying "I'm 23 and still get carded" is forgetting that the age difference in your late teens and early twenties is much harder to tell than the age difference between 10-12-year-olds and 16-year-olds.

[Major Malcontent]

What in the world does this have to do with America invading China? This really doesn't have anything to do with America at all. It's all about the host country, China, being caught violating the rules of the Olympics.

There is a huge advantage to using younger athletes in gymnastics. You even posted that the commentators pointed it out. Are you somehow more of an expert than they are?

All this being said, I don't think there should be an age limit. They're already training these girls at age 3 so we aren't protecting them from anything. In the end, though, rules are rules. Why is it alright for China to break the rules? Why are those of us who have a problem with them cheating all of a sudden labeled as jingoists who will support full invasion of Canada?



Yeah, I have. I've also seen 15 year old Chinese girls and they look nothing like these girls.


I think you misunderstood my post. The gist of what I was getting at was that there are Chinese posters who would support China or any agency/representative thereof right or wrong...Just like there are Americans who would do the same for any agency representing the US.

I did say a rule is a rule and if they break it they should risk disqualification.

[Yonkers]

Everyone on here saying "I'm 23 and still get carded" is forgetting that the age difference in your late teens and early twenties is much harder to tell than the age difference between 10-12-year-olds and 16-year-olds.

Where'd you pull that out from? Just like anything else regarding age and people's looks... it just depends.
My wife, for example, didn't hit puberty until 15 (she'd hate me for saying... lol). I'm sure until then she didn't look much different than when she was 12. Some American girls start having their periods at 10.

[yuantian]

Where'd you pull that out from? Just like anything else regarding age and people's looks... it just depends.
My wife, for example, didn't hit puberty until 15 (she'd hate me for saying... lol). I'm sure until then she didn't look much different than when she was 12. Some American girls start having their periods at 10.

exactly. some people are saying it's impossible these girls are 15. you just can't be certain. :D

[KingCheetah]

That is IT !!!

Due to the clear violation of the Chinese Cheating Federation, we the Clutchfans of America are officially recognizing Taiwan as it's own country.

Take that !!!

;)

DD

Everyone knows that Taiwan is already a free and independent nation.

[Man]

They used their REAL passports with their correct birthdates.......which started this whole controversy.

The Chinese federation is cheating it is obvious.

DD

just wondering, what does your moniker mean?

[rfila]

You just came over to insult the other nationality of people, didn't you? Your posts are always full of hate against the Chinese people. I can still remember your eggroll post which filled with racial hatred against the Chinese people not long ago. What's up with it? If you have to spread racial hate on the internet anonymously, I have to say you are a loser. Know what? It's weak to hide behind your monitor to attack the other people just because you hate them. Why don't you go over to tell that to one of them in his face, use your cell phone to record it along the process and post it here for us to watch? Are you too timid and weak to do that?

As far as I can remember, you are also a minority. So how did you become a minority racist? Do you discriminate against your father and your mother too because they are also minorities? Do you discriminate against yourself? Do you wake up every day in the morning, look in the mirror and tell yourself that you suck because you are a minority? I am very curious to know.

To be fair, this generalthade_03 guy may not be a racist. He may be too stupid to realize he talks like a racist. Or he simply couldn't help it due to some mental illness.

In short, be careful calling him a racist just because he talks like a racist. You could be wrong!

[mic]

Everyone on here saying "I'm 23 and still get carded" is forgetting that the age difference in your late teens and early twenties is much harder to tell than the age difference between 10-12-year-olds and 16-year-olds.

If you're referring to what I wrote (I'm assuming you are, since I specifically mentioned the age of 23), then you totally misread what I wrote. What you're saying is exactly my point.

[rfila]

Everyone knows that Taiwan is already a free and independent nation.
Everyone? Last time I checked, the US government didn't know. Or they knew it but too chicken to say what they knew?

[halfbreed]

If you're referring to what I wrote (I'm assuming you are, since I specifically mentioned the age of 23), then you totally misread what I wrote. What you're saying is exactly my point.

Not meant to respond to you. I'm mainly responding to those who have used the fact that they have been carded to justify why they say all Asian people look younger than they are.

[Air Langhi]

Everyone? Last time I checked, the US government didn't know. Or they knew it but too chicken to say what they knew?

That is why you don't need a visa to go to taiwan?

[halfbreed]

I think you misunderstood my post. The gist of what I was getting at was that there are Chinese posters who would support China or any agency/representative thereof right or wrong...Just like there are Americans who would do the same for any agency representing the US.

I did say a rule is a rule and if they break it they should risk disqualification.

I apologize that I misread your post.

Where'd you pull that out from? Just like anything else regarding age and people's looks... it just depends.
My wife, for example, didn't hit puberty until 15 (she'd hate me for saying... lol). I'm sure until then she didn't look much different than when she was 12. Some American girls start having their periods at 10.

If you line up a group of 8-14 year olds and say that all of them are between 8 and 14 and do the same with a group of 18-24 year olds, I guarantee you that you'll more accurately guess the age of the younger group. It's just easier to tell the difference in younger kids.

[rfila]

That is why you don't need a visa to go to taiwan?

Tell your government about it. Since you need a visa to go to taiwan and you do not need a visa to go to Canada, therefore Taiwan is an independent nation while Canada isn't.

[KingCheetah]

therefore Taiwan is an independent nation

Thank-you !

[yuantian]

That is why you don't need a visa to go to taiwan?

there is no Visa because there was no direct flight and not open to mainland, until this year. and for all the Chinese from Taiwan going to China, they don't use a visa. they don't go through the lanes for foreigners. they go through the same lanes for mainland folks.

[yuantian]

Thank-you !

:rolleyes: loser :D

[rfila]

Thank-you !

lol,

You won, congratulations.

Sigh, poor people.

[yuantian]

and i don't need a Visa to go to China (including Hong Kong), or Canada, or USA. and what does the fact with visa has anything to do with nationality anyway?

[KingCheetah]

You won, congratulations.

Thank-you !

[yuantian]

Thank-you !

:rolleyes: loser! twice! :D

[longhornchampno]

Everyday I come to this forum to LOL at the irrational, paranoid, schizophrenia Chinese posters!


As irrational, paranoid, schizophrenia as the ones who thought they would actually ban black men to go into the bars in Beijing? Why didn't you throw out these names to those people in that infamous thread? Now say it to yourself twenty times that you are a hypocrite because you are the definition of it.

[longhornchampno]

As far as I can remember, you are also a minority. So how did you become a minority racist? Do you discriminate against your father and your mother too because they are also minorities? Do you discriminate against yourself? Do you wake up every day in the morning, look in the mirror and tell yourself that you suck because you are a minority? I am very curious to know.

The way how generalthade_03 greets his dad every day in the morning is: "YOU SUCK!!!".

[DaRock1]

These pictures are from nbcolympics.com

JO Hyunjoo, South Korea 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59283_142x190.jpg

UEMURA Miki, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59266_142x190.jpg

MINOBE Ya, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59265_142x190.jpg

TSURUMI Koko, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59263_142x190.jpg

[DaRock1]

^These Japanese and Korean 'women' don't look 16 to me either. The one with the first name Minobe can't be older than 10.

[Dei]

Hey, this is gonna be real off-topic, but Scola's shot looks like this:

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/images/athlete_photo/normal/3/204463.jpg

[real_egal]

Didn't I post the rule on that a few pages ago? If it is a year before the Olympic games, 15 year olds can compete in World events. 2007 is one year before the 2008 games. 2008-2007= 1



It cracked me up when Costas interviewed him yesterday in NBC, he claimed the current judging system left lots of room for cheating. Of course, he didn't want to say that East European countries are the most powerful bodies in international gymnastics stage, including governing officials and judges. After US girls fell to 2nd place in qualifications, he came out with all these built-in excuses? Where was he when 15 year old US girls won World Championship in 2007?


The Chinese team's website listed them as 14, there's no getting around that.

Are you sure you replied the right post?

Let's list a few facts here, if you want to, please dispute the FACTS with FACTS, NOT just use a blog or one old Chinese news report.

FACT NO. 1:

IOC officially approved the qualification of those Chinese girls. FIG officially stated that they don't have any problem with the ages of the Chinese team. The president of US Gymnastics claimed he did NOT see any problem with it. But you the most powerful BBS poster dismissed all the accounts of official bodies and claimed they were all cheating or being compliances.

FACT NO. 2:

Lukin won gold medal at 14, Shawn won 2007 World Championship at 15, and numerous Romanians won medals at age of 14, UNDER the watch of Karolyi. Now, he came on TV claimed that they did cheat in East Europe all the time, can I interpret that as a confession that he did CHEAT back in Romania? But he went on to claim that since they cheated in East Europe so China must be cheating?

FACT NO. 3:

You claimed Americans under 16 only competed in junior events; however, Shawn won 2007 World Championship, the second highest level of SENIOR event just behind Olympics, at the age of 15.

FACT NO. 4:

Karolyi thought it's FAIR to have 14/15 year-old girls competing in World Championships, if his team or the teams he supports are winning. But all of the sudden, he came out to claim foul AFTER US girls finished qualifications at the SECOND place. Furthermore, he started to ATTACK the judging system, and claimed it has some much room for cheating. He never had a problem with it, when Romania won, or when US won, but when Chinese are leading, THERE IS HUGE ROOM FOR CHEATING.

FACT NO. 5:

Bob Costas ran a story with Karolyi's "I believe", despite all the international, US, and Chinese official voices. In the same article from NYTimes, the Italian coach's "I believe that US team was using doping" were ignored by Costas, Karolyi, you, and any other posters here.

While you dismissing all the Chinese sources, official or unofficial, in other China related threads, but used one Chinese news article as your "strong evidence" here. You could either dismiss this Chinese source as usual, or go ahead to expose all those posters who dismissed Chinese sources in other China threads as liars.

Thank God, the majority are NOT trusting the likes of "I believe 9/11 was an insider job", unconditionally.

[Air Langhi]

Are you sure you replied the right post?

Let's list a few facts here, if you want to, please dispute the FACTS with FACTS, NOT just use a blog or one old Chinese news report.

FACT NO. 1:

IOC officially approved the qualification of those Chinese girls. FIG officially stated that they don't have any problem with the ages of the Chinese team. The president of US Gymnastics claimed he did NOT see any problem with it. But you the most powerful BBS poster dismissed all the accounts of official bodies and claimed they were all cheating or being compliances.

FACT NO. 2:

Lukin won gold medal at 14, Shawn won 2007 World Championship at 15, and numerous Romanians won medals at age of 14, UNDER the watch of Karolyi. Now, he came on TV claimed that they did cheat in East Europe all the time, can I interpret that as a confession that he did CHEAT back in Romania? But he went on to claim that since they cheated in East Europe so China must be cheating?

FACT NO. 3:

You claimed Americans under 16 only competed in junior events; however, Shawn won 2007 World Championship, the second highest level of SENIOR event just behind Olympics, at the age of 15.

FACT NO. 4:

Karolyi thought it's FAIR to have 14/15 year-old girls competing in World Championships, if his team or the teams he supports are winning. But all of the sudden, he came out to claim foul AFTER US girls finished qualifications at the SECOND place. Furthermore, he started to ATTACK the judging system, and claimed it has some much room for cheating. He never had a problem with it, when Romania won, or when US won, but when Chinese are leading, THERE IS HUGE ROOM FOR CHEATING.

FACT NO. 5:

Bob Costas ran a story with Karolyi's "I believe", despite all the international, US, and Chinese official voices. In the same article from NYTimes, the Italian coach's "I believe that US team was using doping" were ignored by Costas, Karolyi, you, and any other posters here.

While you dismissing all the Chinese sources, official or unofficial, in other China related threads, but used one Chinese news article as your "strong evidence" here. You could either dismiss this Chinese source as usual, or go ahead to expose all those posters who dismissed Chinese sources in other China threads as liars.

Thank God, the majority are NOT trusting the likes of "I believe 9/11 was an insider job", unconditionally.

All Karolyi was saying is they should get rid of the age rule. They only instituted it recently. Back then it was ok to be 14 and compete. He just saying the Chinese are cheating under the current rules which it looks like they are.

[saitou]

WHOA!


Pretty much agree with everything you wrote. I think it's very possible that the Chinese are cheating sending underage gymnasts (past history of Chinese and non-Chinese athlete's ages being fudged) but unless IOC or some official body comes out and declares that the current team is indeed cheating others shouldn't be accusing them based on looks which is what Karolyi and some posters in this thread are doing. With the huge population it isn't a stretch that China managed to find really short and thin girls who have yet to hit puberty at 15. The photos of the Japanese team members posted here 'look' as young, are they being accused of cheating too?

If documentation of these members being under the age limit exists, shouldn't it be easy for the IOC to verify their ages? Karolyi or others doubting the age of the Chinese team would have a much stronger case if they had hard evidence (such as an athlete registered at a different age in a previous tournament or something).

Do they use brith certificates in China? (honest question, I don't know if they use them or just use a computer database) Making athletes present brith certificates if they have them is a reasonable request, but probably won't help the situation as they can be faked too.

[saitou]

^ to clarify I don't consider internet sources quoting other internet sources hard evidence. If there was hard evidence I believe people like Karolyi would've sent it to IOC and we wouldn't be having this "she looks" problem.

[gucci888]

Pretty much agree with everything you wrote. I think it's very possible that the Chinese are cheating sending underage gymnasts (past history of Chinese and non-Chinese athlete's ages being fudged) but unless IOC or some official body comes out and declares that the current team is indeed cheating others shouldn't be accusing them based on looks which is what Karolyi and some posters in this thread are doing.

My thoughts exactly.

[DaRock1]

but unless IOC or some official body comes out and declares that the current team is indeed cheating others shouldn't be accusing them based on looks which is what Karolyi and some posters in this thread are doing. With the huge population it isn't a stretch that China managed to find really short and thin girls who have yet to hit puberty at 15. The photos of the Japanese team members posted here 'look' as young, are they being accused of cheating too?

I am also still waiting for someone to comment on the look of these Japanese and Korean 'women' (2008 Olympics athletes).

JO Hyunjoo, South Korea 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59283_142x190.jpg

UEMURA Miki, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59266_142x190.jpg

MINOBE Ya, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59265_142x190.jpg

TSURUMI Koko, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59263_142x190.jpg[/QUOTE]

[rhadamanthus]

Speaking of underaged chinese girls...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080812/ts_afp/oly2008chinaceremonysongfake_080812123027

BEIJING (AFP) - The little girl who starred at the Olympic opening ceremony was miming and only put on stage because the real singer was not considered attractive enough, the show's musical director has revealed.

Pigtailed Lin Miaoke was selected to appear because of her cute appearance and did not sing a note, Chen Qigang, the general music designer of the ceremony, said in an interview with a state broadcaster aired Tuesday.

Photographs of Lin in a bright red party dress were published in newspapers and websites all over the world and the official China Daily hailed her as a rising star on Tuesday.

But Chen said the girl whose voice was actually heard by the 91,000 capacity crowd at the Olympic stadium during the spectacular ceremony was in fact seven-year-old Yang Peiyi, who has a chubby face and uneven teeth.

"The reason why little Yang was not chosen to appear was because we wanted to project the right image, we were thinking about what was best for the nation," Chen said in an interview that appeared briefly on the news website Sina.com before it was apparently wiped from the Internet in China.

This olympics is plagued with ugly little falsehoods.

[jli]

[QUOTE=DaRock1]I am also still waiting for someone to comment on the look of these Japanese and Korean 'women' (2008 Olympics athletes).

Nobody cares about the Japanese because they are not a threat to the American team. The American coach is just trying to influence the judges out of fear that they might favor the home team. You should have seen enough of that in the NBA.

[SevereCr1tic]

Speaking of underaged chinese girls...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080812/ts_afp/oly2008chinaceremonysongfake_080812123027



This olympics is plagued with ugly little falsehoods.

What does it have to do with gymnastics?

The point that guys have been making in this thread is that they don't mind using younger athletes and most also agree it doesn't give them a competitive edge. But they think everyone should follow the rule if there is one, which I agree. That said, is there a rule that the perform who performed the singing in front of the crowd in the opening ceremony has to be the same as the perform who sang? Not to burst your bubbles, chance is that most of the marital arts performers in the opening ceremony are not really martial artists and were just given a cram course before the Olympics to have just enough skill to perform their part.

[SevereCr1tic]

[QUOTE=DaRock1]I am also still waiting for someone to comment on the look of these Japanese and Korean 'women' (2008 Olympics athletes).

Nobody cares about the Japanese because they are not a threat to the American team. The American coach is just trying to influence the judges out of fear that they might favor the home team. You should have seen enough of that in the NBA.

I don't blame the coach. I believe the job of a coach is to put his team in the best position to win. Have you seen how Phil Jackson always uses the post game interviews to give the NBA officials something to think about? So I don't have problem with Karolyi at all. He has the right give his opinion and everyone else has the right to evaluate the validity of it.

[rhadamanthus]

What does it have to do with gymnastics?


Uh.. well, nothing. Which is why I said "speaking of underage chinese girls" and not "speaking of gymnastics".

READING RAINBOW!

[SevereCr1tic]

Uh.. well, nothing. Which is why I said "speaking of underage chinese girls" and not "speaking of gymnastics".

READING RAINBOW!

You missed the target. You deleted the second part of my post which is really it's main theme. My post is mainly directed at your "ugly little falsehoods" assertion.

[AGBee]

FACT NO. 2:
Lukin won gold medal at 14, Shawn won 2007 World Championship at 15, and numerous Romanians won medals at age of 14, UNDER the watch of Karolyi. Now, he came on TV claimed that they did cheat in East Europe all the time, can I interpret that as a confession that he did CHEAT back in Romania? But he went on to claim that since they cheated in East Europe so China must be cheating?

FACT NO. 3:

You claimed Americans under 16 only competed in junior events; however, Shawn won 2007 World Championship, the second highest level of SENIOR event just behind Olympics, at the age of 15.


The rules state that a 15 year old can compete in the world championships if there is an Olympics event the following year. Nadia and the other Euros that won at the age of 14 did so before the current age limits were in place. You keep bringing these issues up as if it's proof that somebody cheated. You list facts that PROVE NOTHING.

[rhadamanthus]

You missed the target. You deleted the second part of my post which is really it's main theme. My post is mainly directed at your "ugly little falsehoods" assertion.

I did not miss it. I ignored it.

I think it's reasonable to assume a singer on a stage is actually singing. But I don't really care.

I feel bad for the little girl deemed "not attractive enough" though. There is a pciture of her on yahoo, for anyone curious. Seems plenty cute to me.

[real_egal]

The rules state that a 15 year old can compete in the world championships if there is an Olympics event the following year. Nadia and the other Euros that won at the age of 14 did so before the current age limits were in place. You keep bringing these issues up as if it's proof that somebody cheated. You list facts that PROVE NOTHING.

Sure my facts proved nothing, but your OPINION proved everything.

Another fact for you: Karolyi said on record that they CHEATED in East Europe ALL THE TIME. That "THEY" should include himself as well. It's NOT "as if" as you claimed, but FACTS.

You guys kept ignoring the fact again, that Karolyi claimed on TV, ON THE RECORD, the judging system leaves huge room for cheating, RIGHT AFTER US team finished 2nd in qualifications. However, he never had problem with the system when Romanians or Americans were winning.

Please feel free to "prove" to yourself with your own opinions.

[SevereCr1tic]

I did not miss it. I ignored it.

I think it's reasonable to assume a singer on a stage is actually singing. But I don't really care.

I feel bad for the little girl deemed "not attractive enough" though. There is a pciture of her on yahoo, for anyone curious. Seems plenty cute to me.

I don't mean to get on your case. I just think your "ugly little falsehoods" description is kind of demeaning and extreme when they just tried to put up a good show for everyone and didn't violate any rules. Looks like every little thing that China does can be exposed as a scandal.

[rhadamanthus]

I don't mean to get on your case. I just think your "ugly little falsehoods" description is kind of demeaning and extreme when they just tried to put up a good show for everyone and didn't violate any rules. Looks like every little thing that China does can be exposed as a scandal.

Dude. Are you trying to come off as a paranoid chinese wacko-nationalist?

I never mentioned china or vilified them. I said "these olympics"... I was referring to things like the faked fireworks by NBC just as much as china's shennanigans.

[gucci888]

delete

[saitou]

I feel bad for the little girl deemed "not attractive enough" though. There is a pciture of her on yahoo, for anyone curious. Seems plenty cute to me.

i think the pic you're referring to is of the girl who lipsynched

[SevereCr1tic]

Dude. Are you trying to come off as a paranoid chinese wacko-nationalist?

I never mentioned china or vilified them. I said "these olympics"... I was referring to things like the faked fireworks by NBC just as much as china's shennanigans.

What's up with the name calling? I have said I didn't mean to get on your case. I have said I only haev problem with your term "ugly little falsehoods" which is extreme when they didn't violate any rule. What do you not agree with? You talk like an extremist who gets paranoid when someone calls you out and sound like you are ready to take to violence or something. What's wrong with you? By the way, the footprints are CGI, but the fireworks is NOT fake. It has been widely reported in almost every single news source. Learn to read.

[SevereCr1tic]

Dude. Are you trying to come off as a paranoid chinese wacko-nationalist?

I never mentioned china or vilified them. I said "these olympics"... I was referring to things like the faked fireworks by NBC just as much as china's shennanigans.

Whoever talks about the positive side of the Olympics are "paranoid chinese wacko-nationalist"? What do you call the ones who always defend Muslim? What derogatory term have you come up for them? You are low.

[rhadamanthus]

i think the pic you're referring to is of the girl who lipsynched

Nope. There is one of the Yang girl too.

[JunkyardDwg]

FACT NO. 1:

IOC officially approved the qualification of those Chinese girls. FIG officially stated that they don't have any problem with the ages of the Chinese team. The president of US Gymnastics claimed he did NOT see any problem with it. But you the most powerful BBS poster dismissed all the accounts of official bodies and claimed they were all cheating or being compliances.

A passport, however, may not be undisputed documentation of a gymnast’s age. Yang Yun won two bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Games, in the uneven bars and as a member of the Chinese team. The United States team finished fourth.

Afterward, Yang said on state-run television that she was 14 when she competed at the Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report confirmed that.

“The medal was supposed to be ours, and we should be given it,” said Karolyi, the coach of the 2000 United States team, referring to the bronze medal in the team event. “Now some girls are left crying forever while nothing is done about the cheaters. If the I.O.C. is closing their eyes to this, they are proving that they have turned completely political. Why don’t they look at the birth certificates?”

Nothing has been done about that potential age violation since Yang’s video recently surfaced on the Internet.

Another I.O.C. spokeswoman, Emmanuelle Moreau, said the committee had “the mechanism in place” to deal with a case of an under-age athlete who wins an Olympic medal, but she would not elaborate.

The responsibility remains with the international gymnastics federation, she said.

Officials from the F.I.G. said Saturday that they did not plan to investigate Yang’s claim that she broke the rules because no documents were involved.

“As long as the passport ages are the same as in the past as today, there is no reason for the F.I.G. to take any action,” Andre Gueisbuhler, the secretary general, said.

The federation’s president, Bruno Grandi, acknowledged that age falsification remained a problem in gymnastics. To battle it, he said, the federation will issue licenses to gymnasts next year. The athletes will need those licenses to compete internationally, even in junior events. It will be issued upon review of the athlete’s passport.

That sounds to me like the FIG would rather brush the issue under a rug then do a thorough investigation. They are basing their ruling on one set of passports. How many times must it be stated that it's fairly easy and not uncommon to falsify it.



FACT NO. 2:

Lukin won gold medal at 14, Shawn won 2007 World Championship at 15, and numerous Romanians won medals at age of 14, UNDER the watch of Karolyi. Now, he came on TV claimed that they did cheat in East Europe all the time, can I interpret that as a confession that he did CHEAT back in Romania? But he went on to claim that since they cheated in East Europe so China must be cheating?

She (Nastia Liukin) won the World Championships titles on both uneven bars and balance beam at the 2005 World Championships, as well as earning the silver medals in the all-around and floor exercise.

She was born in 1989 which means (if my math is correct) she would have been 16 in '05)

Prior to 1981, the minimum required age to compete in senior events sanctioned by the FIG was 14.

Bela Karolyi coached the Romanian team before this rule went into effect.

FACT NO. 3:

You claimed Americans under 16 only competed in junior events; however, Shawn won 2007 World Championship, the second highest level of SENIOR event just behind Olympics, at the age of 15.

Legal exceptions
The one exception to this rule applies to the year before the Olympics, when gymnasts who are one year below the required age, but will be the required age in the Olympic year, may compete as seniors at the World Championships and other FIG meets



FACT NO. 4:

Karolyi thought it's FAIR to have 14/15 year-old girls competing in World Championships, if his team or the teams he supports are winning. But all of the sudden, he came out to claim foul AFTER US girls finished qualifications at the SECOND place. Furthermore, he started to ATTACK the judging system, and claimed it has some much room for cheating. He never had a problem with it, when Romania won, or when US won, but when Chinese are leading, THERE IS HUGE ROOM FOR CHEATING.

Actually these news stories of him complaining about the rules violations appeared BEFORE the US team took the floor in qualifying. In addition, the US team are the reigning World Champions so he would have nothing to be sore about (in terms of losing); plus it's obvious to everyone that the US is not 1st after pre-lims because of injuries and mistakes. No one is saying or implying that they don't have the lead because the Chinese are using underage players. What people are saying is they might be cheating; that is totally seperate from the performances of the other teams.

FACT NO. 5:

Bob Costas ran a story with Karolyi's "I believe", despite all the international, US, and Chinese official voices. In the same article from NYTimes, the Italian coach's "I believe that US team was using doping" were ignored by Costas, Karolyi, you, and any other posters here.

While you dismissing all the Chinese sources, official or unofficial, in other China related threads, but used one Chinese news article as your "strong evidence" here. You could either dismiss this Chinese source as usual, or go ahead to expose all those posters who dismissed Chinese sources in other China threads as liars.

The Times found two online records of official registration lists of Chinese gymnasts that list He’s birthday as Jan. 1, 1994, which would make her 14. A 2007 national registry of Chinese gymnasts — now blocked in China but viewable through Google cache — shows He’s age as “1994.1.1.”

Another registration list that is unblocked, dated Jan. 27, 2006, and regarding an “intercity” competition in Chengdu, China, also lists He’s birthday as Jan. 1, 1994. That date differs by two years from the birth date of Jan. 1, 1992, listed on He’s passport, which was issued Feb. 14, 2008.

That's not a Chinese source, that's the NY Times doing it's own investigation. And that corroborates what the Chinese newspapers reported in a few articles.

Enrico Casella, the coach of the Italian women’s team, had an idea to do away with age questions: create weight classes. That way, gymnasts of similar weight could compete more equally against one another, and the age minimum could be scrapped.

Until then, he said, there will always be rumors that athletes are too young. Looks could be deceiving, he said.

“By looks, you could say that the United States is using doping,” Casella said. “They are so muscular. My gymnasts in Italy aren’t that big. You begin to wonder how they got that way.”

You took his quote completely out of context. First, he never said "I believe the US is doping." It was a hypothetical in response to the argument that looks could be deceiving. I agree with that statement; you can't definitively say, on looks alone, if the Chinese are cheating or not. But we're not going by just looks here; there's other evidence to support this theory.


And btw, all these sources that I've posted can be found in the links that have been posted time and again already. Why don't you read them...instead of blindly believing what you want to believe.

[rhadamanthus]

What's up with the name calling?

"come off as" != "you are". Calm down.

I have said I didn't mean to get on your case. I have said I only haev problem with your term "ugly little falsehoods" which is extreme when they didn't violate any rule.

Falsehood: absence of truth or accuracy

Having a girl sing, only to later be revealed as lip-synching would be a falsehood. It has nothing to do with rules. :rolleyes:

What do you not agree with? You talk like an extremist who gets paranoid when someone calls you out and sound like you are ready to take to violence or something.

Says the person who portrayed a report about lip-synching as a scandulous attack on china's pride... :rolleyes:

What's wrong with you?

I'd guess my problem is that I am communicating with someone not terribly bright.

By the way, the footprints are CGI, but the fireworks is NOT fake. It has been widely reported in almost every single news source. Learn to read.

London's Telegraph newspaper reports that some of the fireworks which appeared over Beijing during the television broadcast of the Olympic Opening Ceremony were actually computer generated. But -- hold on -- it's not necessarily as bad as you think.

The faked fireworks were actually set-off at the stadium, but because of potential dangers in filming the display live from a helicopter, viewers at home were shown a pre-recorded, computer-generated shot. It sounds dishonest, but I'm not sure it's such a terrible thing.

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Some-Opening-Ceremony-fireworks-were-faked?urn=oly,99745)

It is what it is. NBC faked some of the fireworks. For the record (just in case you decide to get all pissed) NBC is different from China. Let me repeat: NBC is not China and I am not calling china a meanie-poophead for faking fireworks.

Good day!

[saitou]

Nope. There is one of the Yang girl too.

is it on the same page you linked? can't find it. i'm intersted to see what the singer looks like

[rhadamanthus]

is it on the same page you linked? can't find it. i'm intersted to see what the singer looks like

I saw it on the "popular stories" page but I do not see it anymore. Have you tried google?

[saitou]

I saw it on the "popular stories" page but I do not see it anymore. Have you tried google?

nvm just saw a pic of her in the video report on that page. I thought she looked fine too.

The story itself doesn't seem that big of a deal though. The circumstances are slightly different in that the person doing the singing is different, and the performance was actually convincing, but its the same type of deceifulness many pop groups employ when they have bad singers and lip synch during their 'live' performances.

[SevereCr1tic]

It is what it is. NBC faked some of the fireworks. For the record (just in case you decide to get all pissed) NBC is different from China. Let me repeat: NBC is not China and I am not calling china a meanie-poophead for faking fireworks.

Good day!

NBC faked it? ROFL. Why would a broadcasting company fake it? You are really the one who's not that bright.

And once again, what's up with the name calling? So what derogatory name have you come up with for the posters who have always defend Muslim no matter what?

[Why So Serious?]

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Some-Opening-Ceremony-fireworks-were-faked?urn=oly,99745)

It is what it is. NBC faked some of the fireworks. For the record (just in case you decide to get all pissed) NBC is different from China. Let me repeat: NBC is not China and I am not calling china a meanie-poophead for faking fireworks.

Good day!

Just want to point out that the firework in question (the foot print across Beijing) actually did took place, they just showed a computer generated version of it leading up to the live shot from the stadium because they thought it was too dangerous to have a helicopter film it live while the firework was been set off.

Also NBC announcer clearly stated during that segment that "you are watching a computer generated picture of footsteps leading to the birdnest". And to be honest I thought it was pretty clear that the segment in question was CGI, I mean they didn't exactly do a good job of making it look real.

I think a lot of people, including the guy who wrote the Yahoo article based on the Telegraph report either didn't understand or simply didn't read about the facts. Which is why Yahoo took down that article from its front page within 30mins of putting it up.

Again only the part with the footprints across the Beijing sky was been accused of faking (even though NBC clearly stated during the broadcast it was CGI). Even in that case the footprints firework did actually took place.

[rhadamanthus]

NBC faked it? ROFL. Why would a broadcasting company fake it? You are really the one who's not that bright.

It's -umm- right there in the link. And actually, it was not NBC per say, it was the Beijing Olympic Broadcasting Company or whatever. And, since you still cannot/refuse to read, let me try again:

The NBC commentator specifically said, as the footage was being shown, that the event's producers were using a cinematic interlude to convey the concept of the fireworks. The actual fireworks WERE going off at the same time, and in much the same way... but there was simply no way to be sure they could show it well on TV - since it was impossible to predict the weather or other cirumstances. So, they showed a CGI illustration for the people watching TV. The weren't hiding anything, they came right out and SAID what they were doing: a faked representation of the fireworks.

Really - it's not a big deal. Just an interesting factoid, more than anything else.

And once again, what's up with the name calling? So what derogatory name have you come up with for the posters who have always defend Muslim no matter what?

I really don't know what you are talking about. I never directly called you anything, but I'm about too if you keep trolling around on simple and inoffensive (to me, anyhow) commentary.

[rhadamanthus]

Just want to point out that the firework in question (the foot print across Beijing) actually did took place, they just showed a computer generated version of it leading up to the live shot from the stadium because they thought it was too dangerous to have a helicopter film it live while the firework was been set off.

Also NBC announcer clearly stated during that segment that "you are watching a computer generated picture of footsteps leading to the birdnest". And to be honest I thought it was pretty clear that the segment in question was CGI, I mean they didn't exactly do a good job of making it look real.

I think a lot of people, including the guy who wrote the Yahoo article based on the Telegraph report either didn't understand or simply didn't read about the facts. Which is why Yahoo took down that article from its front page within 30mins of putting it up.

Again only the part with the footprints across the Beijing sky was been accused of faking (even though NBC clearly stated during the broadcast it was CGI). Even in that case the footprints firework did actually took place.

lol. simultaneous unintentional dupe posts.

[Why So Serious?]

It's -umm- right there in the link. And actually, it was not NBC per say, it was the Beijing Olympic Broadcasting Company or whatever. And, since you still cannot/refuse to read, let me try again:

The NBC commentator specifically said, as the footage was being shown, that the event's producers were using a cinematic interlude to convey the concept of the fireworks. The actual fireworks WERE going off at the same time, and in much the same way... but there was simply no way to be sure they could show it well on TV - since it was impossible to predict the weather or other cirumstances. So, they showed a CGI illustration for the people watching TV. The weren't hiding anything, they came right out and SAID what they were doing: a faked representation of the fireworks.

Really - it's not a big deal. Just an interesting factoid, more than anything else.



I really don't know what you are talking about. I never directly called you anything, but I'm about too if you keep trolling around on simple and inoffensive (to me, anyhow) commentary.

Here is article explaining the situation, I think it all came down to the fact that the guy who wrote the short commentary on "the Telegraph" article didn't explain the whole thing at all before posting it on the front of Yahoo, and what was worse was that he put up a pic of the actual fireworks not the ones that was in question along with his commentary, and that caused more unnecessary uproar.
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=ap-fakefireworks&prov=ap&type=lgns
Olympics footprint TV segment computer-generated 10 hours, 46 minutes ago
BEIJING (AP)—Not all was what it seemed during the spectacular opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics. Beijing organizers confirmed Tuesday that some of the fireworks display featured prerecorded footage. Fireworks that burst into the shape of 29 gigantic footprints were shown trudging above the Beijing skyline to the National Stadium near the start of the ceremony. Though the footprint-shaped fireworks were real, some of the footage shown to television viewers around the world and on giant screens inside the “Bird’s Nest” stadium featured a computer-generated three-dimensional image. “It was confirmed that previously recorded footage was provided to the broadcasters for convenience and theatrical effects—as in many other big events,” Beijing organizing committee spokesman Wang Wei said. “On the day of the ceremony there were actual footprints of fireworks from the south to the north of the city. “However, because of the poor visibility of the night, some previously recorded footage may have been used.” The computerized images were produced by Crystal Digital Technology Co. of Beijing. “We did our best to create a rendering that would look like the shot was taken live,” company spokesman Lei Ming told the Beijing Times. “Most people could not tell the difference.” NBC said broadcasters Bob Costas and Matt Lauer told viewers the display was cinematic. “This is actually almost animation,” Lauer said on the air. The ceremony won rave reviews around the world and was watched by more than 1 billion people. In the United States on NBC, the ceremony averaged 34.2 million U.S. viewers, making it the biggest American television event since the Super Bowl.

Just a big deal about nothing because the guy who did the Yahoo front page commentary didn't bother to read the actual article IMO.

[rhadamanthus]

Jesus

H

Christ


Does anyone read anymore? I feel like I'm in a room full of deaf and blind people all yelling the same joke to each other.

[Why So Serious?]

Jesus

H

Christ


Does anyone read anymore? I feel like I'm in a room full of deaf and blind people all yelling the same joke to each other.

Are you talking about me? I was just trying to explain the actual situation to those who might have been mistaken about the situation.

And about he lipsynch thing, people lipsynch all the time even in "live concerts".

People are putting way too much emphasis on the fact that the song wasn't performed live. I mean come on you can't expect a 8 year old to sing live in front of billions of people.
I am more pissed off that the other poor girl didn't get recognized for her talent just because some government official thought she wasn't pretty enough.

[SevereCr1tic]

Jesus

H

Christ


Does anyone read anymore? I feel like I'm in a room full of deaf and blind people all yelling the same joke to each other.

You still don't get it? My point is that it's utterly hypocritical of you to have called out the wacko/nationalist names when you yourself are as predictable as the sun rises in the morning to defend Muslim whenever a disputable topic about that religion comes up. Can you spell hypocrite?

[rhadamanthus]

Are you talking about me? I was just trying to explain the actual situation to those who might have been mistaken about the situation.

I know. We are saying the same thing. That is the point. Re-read the last 6 posts or so. It's the same thing each time.

I am more pissed off that the other poor girl didn't get recognized for her talent just because some government official thought she wasn't pretty enough.

Exactly. As I said about a page ago before the critic guy went all loony-bin.

[rhadamanthus]

You still don't get it? My point is that it's utterly hypocritical of you to have called out the wacko/nationalist names when you yourself are as predictable as the sun rises in the morning to defend Muslim whenever a disputable topic about that religion comes up. Can you spell hypocrite?

http://www.oswald.us/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/bunny-pancake.jpg

[Why So Serious?]

I know. We are saying the same thing. That is the point. Re-read the last 6 posts or so. It's the same thing each time.



Exactly. As I said about a page ago before the critic guy went all loony-bin.

Oh ok, sorry there was just too many other arguments going on at the same time for me to get who is saying what.

[WhoMikeJames]

I am also still waiting for someone to comment on the look of these Japanese and Korean 'women' (2008 Olympics athletes).

JO Hyunjoo, South Korea 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59283_142x190.jpg


UEMURA Miki, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59266_142x190.jpg

MINOBE Ya, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59265_142x190.jpg

TSURUMI Koko, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59263_142x190.jpg[/QUOTE]

Haha wow... All of them look 13 or 14 years old.

[SageHare6]

Haha wow... All of them look 13 or 14 years old.[/QUOTE]

But does Kobe know that?

:p

theSAGE

[longhornchampno]

I am also still waiting for someone to comment on the look of these Japanese and Korean 'women' (2008 Olympics athletes).

JO Hyunjoo, South Korea 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59283_142x190.jpg

UEMURA Miki, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59266_142x190.jpg

MINOBE Ya, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59265_142x190.jpg

TSURUMI Koko, Japan 2008 Olympics Women gymnastic team.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/imgml/athletes/large/59263_142x190.jpg

How old is the Korean gymnast? I really find it hard to believe that she can be older than 9.

[meh]

Haha wow... All of them look 13 or 14 years old.[/QUOTE]

Don't be ridiculous. They're all 16 year olds and look like it. Because we all know Korea and Japan are democratic countries where you can't get fake passports. And that's what all 16 year olds in those countries look like. ;) :D

[tinger]

Don't be ridiculous. They're all 16 year olds and look like it. Because we all know Korea and Japan are democratic countries where you can't get fake passports. And that's what all 16 year olds in those countries look like. ;) :D
what he said :cool:

[yuantian]

WTF! i am totally pissed. that freak US coach is an asshole. i just saw a bunch of teams entering the arena. both Japan, Brazil have girls look as young, if not younger girls than the Chinese team. what a ****ing asshole. he can go lick his own you know what.

[SamFisher]

WTF! i am totally pissed. that freak US coach is an asshole. i just saw a bunch of teams entering the arena. both Japan, Brazil have girls look as young, if not younger girls than the Chinese team. what a ****ing asshole. he can go lick his own you know what.
China has cheated on this in recent Olympics and has been busted for it, ask Yung Yan.

Botnet logic doesn't comprehend this of course but it does make a difference.

[yuantian]

China has cheated on this in recent Olympics and has been busted for it, ask Yung Yan.

Botnet logic doesn't comprehend this of course but it does make a difference.

you are ignorant anyways. if you think those girls are more 15/16 than Chinese girls, then you need to check your vision.

[SamFisher]

you are ignorant anyways. if you think those girls are more 15/16 than Chinese girls, then you need to check your vision.
So some brazilian girls and japanese girls look young so it's ok that China, which has a history of cheating in the exact same fashion, can cheat again and nobody can ask any questions.

THUS SPAKE THE BOTNET

Bela knows what it's like to work for a sports machine under a dictatorship, he knows the drill here.

[yuantian]

So some brazilian girls and japanese girls look young so it's ok that China, which has a history of cheating in the exact same fashion, can cheat again and nobody can ask any questions.

THUS SPAKE THE BOTNET

Bela knows what it's like to work for a sports machine under a dictatorship, he knows the drill here.

no, that's saying, the dude is an ass and attention whore. that's all. besides, you can't prove they aren't 15/16 anyways. so whatever.

[SamFisher]

no, that's saying, the dude is an ass and attention whore. that's all. besides, you can't prove they aren't 15/16 anyways. so whatever.
no you can't prove it, you couldn't prove it with Yung Yan either, until she admitted the fraud years after it happened.

[yuantian]

no you can't prove it, you couldn't prove it with Yung Yan either, until she admitted the fraud years after it happened.

sure, you can admit to anything. you can lie about anything if you want attention. how do you know she was telling the truth? you've got nothing to prove anything. might as well zip it. :D

[SamFisher]

sure, you can admit to anything. you can lie about anything if you want attention. how do you know she was telling the truth? you've got nothing to prove anything. might as well zip it. :D
Oh yes, only a confession from the person who lied about her age that she lied about her age - otherwise nothing to prove it.

[yuantian]

Oh yes, only a confession from the person who lied about her age that she lied about her age - otherwise nothing to prove it.

:eek: sure sure, whatever you say.

[SamFisher]

:eek: sure sure, whatever you say.
It was broadcast on CCTV - your favorite network in the world.

[yuantian]

It was broadcast on CCTV - your favorite network in the world.

stop making stuff up about people you don't know. i don't watch CCTV. and for your record, my favorite channel is whatever basketball is on.

[bucket]

sure, you can admit to anything. you can lie about anything if you want attention. how do you know she was telling the truth? you've got nothing to prove anything. might as well zip it. :D

This is exactly the kind of paranoid nationalism that makes me frightened of what China will become. Frantically searching for any scrap of doubt to negative allegations against China-- even if those doubts are pathetically unfounded-- seems to be the norm among many posters here. For another example, see some of the responses in the thread on the girl being kept from performing in the opening ceremony because of her looks. As long as this attitude prevails among China's educated middle class, that nation will struggle to become truly great.

[yuantian]

This is exactly the kind of paranoid nationalism that makes me frightened of what China will become. Frantically searching for any scrap of doubt to negative allegations against China-- even if those doubts are pathetically unfounded-- seems to be the norm among many posters here. For another example, see some of the responses in the thread on the girl being kept from performing in the opening ceremony because of her looks. As long as this attitude prevails among China's educated middle class, that nation will struggle to become truly great.

dude, this is the internet. how long have you been here? Sam is a known troll. i can't mess around?

[SamFisher]

stop making stuff up about people you don't know. i don't watch CCTV. and for your record, my favorite channel is whatever basketball is on.
Just relax - if Chinese chix keep falling off the beam like the last girl we won't have to worry about this anymore.

[yuantian]

Just relax - if Chinese chix keep falling off the beam like the last girl we won't have to worry about this anymore.

good try. :D i am practicing guitar right now. not really watching. i hope she is OK though.

[Hayesfan]

no, that's saying, the dude is an ass and attention whore. that's all. besides, you can't prove they aren't 15/16 anyways. so whatever.

He's also not the US coach. Liang Chow is.

[SamFisher]

good try. :D i am practicing guitar right now. not really watching. i hope she is OK though.
don't worry the judges are giving them high scores anyway, the red dominasian will continue no matter what tonight it looks like.

[yuantian]

He's also not the US coach. Liang Chow is.

ya, i think he was the coach for a couple of Olympics. i don't remember exactly which ones anymore. didn't know Liang Chow is the coach, i thought it's that guy's wife leading the team. is that right?

[yuantian]

don't worry the judges are giving them high scores anyway, the red dominasian will continue no matter what tonight it looks like.

you are obviously not familiar with judging even though you are watching. :)

[Hayesfan]

ya, i think he was the coach for a couple of Olympics. i don't remember exactly which ones anymore. didn't know Liang Chow is the coach, i thought it's that guy's wife leading the team. is that right?


No, she's just there as the "emotional leader" :)

[yuantian]

No, she's just there as the "emotional leader" :)

ah i see. that's cool. i don't think Liang Chow is good at that. :D

[DaDakota]

I guess cheaters do win.

[MexAmercnMoose]

our girls are still hotter, so they win at life

[rhino17]

I just saw them for the first time on tv

these girls look like they are only 9 or 10

[yuantian]

so you are judging people by appearance now? :D