Will Bush abolish Abortion? [Archive]

moestavern19

01-23-2001, 03:15 PM

Many Pro-Choice supporters feel that their cause is in jeopardy right now . Many Pro-Life supporters feel the Time to strike is now . Some people think The 1973 Supreme Court Ruling was bogus and should have been passed as a bill . This topic is very sensitive , Many people will be hurt no matter what happens . The Democrats will be trying to stop John Ashcroft from becoming Attorney General because og his Ultra-Contervative aproach .

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Jeff

01-23-2001, 03:19 PM

I don't think it will go that far. There have been tons of studies done that have found that around 60% of Americans believe in the right of a woman to choose abortion.

Even many Republicans are loathe to overturn Roe v. Wade. With the razor-thin margin in Congress and the Senate, it is unlikely that anything with that much significance and contentiousness on both sides would make it through.

Even if it did, you could count on years and years of litigation.

That is a dangerous road to travel for anyone and politicians are sensitive enough to their position on issues. If there was an overwhelming consensus either way, it would be one thing. But, there just really isn't.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

mc mark

01-23-2001, 03:28 PM

All I gonna say is I hope your right Jeff.

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'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'

bobrek

01-23-2001, 03:33 PM

Keep in mind that if Roe v. Wade is overturned it WILL NOT abolish abortions. It will merely throw the ball back into each state's lap.

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rockHEAD

01-23-2001, 03:53 PM

http://houstonrocketsfan.tripod.com/uniter.jpg

MadMax

01-23-2001, 04:55 PM

The very nature of the question posed in this thread disturbs me because it shows a complete misunderstanding of how our government works.

Bobrek is exactly right. If Roe is overturned, it simply means the states would then choose as to whether or not they wanted to enforce certain abortion restrictions. Of course that would be subject to the concerns of the people since we elect the legislatures in our respective states to fashion those laws. There will be no federal law saying that no one in the U.S. can have an abortion...oh, and by the way...if there were you would have Congress to blame as much as Bush.

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Steve_Francis_rules

01-23-2001, 05:20 PM

I wish abortion could simply be abolished.

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Jeff

01-23-2001, 05:24 PM

You guys are right, of course. I think the primary concern isn't with whether or not states would abolish abortion. Some would but the vast majority would not.

The concern is that overturning Roe v. Wade is setting a precedent that is uncomfortable for the majority of the country. I just can't see them even taking steps to reverse it at this point. I could definitely be wrong, but I don't think so.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

heypartner

01-23-2001, 05:27 PM

You can't abolish abortion any more than you can abolish sinning.

rimbaud

01-23-2001, 05:35 PM

Was that a MadMax sighting?

Max, you fail to realize that Bush has the power to take over the senate and, if he beats the chief justice in Thumb War (something at which I hear he is really good) then they will have to vote however he tells them to vote.

That is how abortion will be banned.

Sad, so very very sad....

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EZLN

bobrek

01-23-2001, 05:37 PM

What I find interesting is that abortion is in the hands of the U.S. government while capital punishment is in the hands of the state governments.

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dc sports

01-23-2001, 05:53 PM

Actually, it's almost exactly the same situation.

Since the Supreme Court undertook the power of judicial review, they have occasionally taken on the role of inventing law and responsibility for implementing certain social policy. -- This is of course, very controversial, but then, if it were an easy question, it wouldn't go to the Supreme Court, would it?

Medical regulations and punishment for crimes against state laws are considered powers held by the state. Roe vs. Wade didn't legalize abortion -- it took away most of the states' ability to regulate it.

The same thing happened several years back with Capital Punishment. The Supreme Court declared it "cruel and unusual punishment," putting all death sentences on hold indefinitely. A few years later a (changed) Supreme Court reversed itself, turning it back over to the states.
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Stay Cool... http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/cool.gif

[This message has been edited by dc sports (edited January 23, 2001).]

ZRB

01-23-2001, 07:29 PM

There a six billion people in this world. We can not continue to overpopulate the planet. Abortion is necessary for the survival of life on this planet. Eventually, we will run out of room.
Even if all the states were to abolish abortions, nothing much would change. Women would still get abortions, they would just be under the table. Of course, they would not be as safe, and some women would probably die. How's that for saving lives?

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"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."

vj23k

01-23-2001, 08:31 PM

I dont think it will happen.

Bush said he wouldn't overturn Roe Vs. Wade. and with 50-50 in congress its probably not going to happen.

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vj23k

01-23-2001, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by ZRB: There a six billion people in this world. We can not continue to overpopulate the planet. Abortion is necessary for the survival of life on this planet. Eventually, we will run out of room.
Even if all the states were to abolish abortions, nothing much would change. Women would still get abortions, they would just be under the table. Of course, they would not be as safe, and some women would probably die. How's that for saving lives?

I have never heard abortion as a way to control population, but i guess it would work.

Not a good way, but there really isn't a good way to prevent overpopulation.

IMHO, abortion is the mother's choice. In most situations if a mother wants an abortion it is because they could not support it anyway.

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President of the Charles Barkley fan club...Oh he retired? When?

A-Train

01-23-2001, 08:41 PM

OK, someone will have to explain rockHEAD's pic to me....

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stringthing

01-23-2001, 09:21 PM

You know, I really believe that future generations will look back on this era and hang their heads in shame. There was quite an extensive period of time where people would look you square in the eyes and rationlize slavery as well.

Mothers right to choose....what a crock of #@$%

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heypartner

01-23-2001, 09:22 PM

stringthing,

you are assuming men will still be in power.

stringthing

01-23-2001, 09:30 PM

funny thing is partner, I am not. I am assuming nothing more than the fact that the day will come when this abomination is eliminated. These are dark days indeed, and I eagerly await the dawn. I may not live to see it (though I hope I do), but it will come.

[This message has been edited by stringthing (edited January 23, 2001).]

Steve_Francis_rules

01-23-2001, 10:12 PM

rimbaud, you think it would be sad if it became illegal to butcher babies before they were born?
ZRB, it sounds like you would like abortion being illegal. People will still do it so the population can stay in control, and many women will die during the process, further depopulating the world.
Amen stringthing.

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Puedlfor

01-23-2001, 10:35 PM

I don't worry too much about overpopulation, "population fatigue" will take care of that. Of course, "population fatigue" is a sterile, academic way of saying that so many people will die in overpopulated countries -- of disease, hunger and other calamities -- that it will even things out.

As for abortion, this thread is a prime example of why there will never be a compromise on abortion. One side believes vehemently that abortion is murder, the other that it is afundamental right to decide what to do with your body. I don't see a middle ground there, I doubt anyone else does either.

Me, I don't know which side I'm on, doubt I ever will.

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rascal

01-23-2001, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by A-Train:
OK, someone will have to explain rockHEAD's pic to me....


Before abortions were legal in this country. many women resorted to illegal abortions. A good many were performed with instuments as crude as a wire hanger. As a result, a lot of these women were permanently injured or killed from the botched operations.

The hanger has become something of a symbol for the pro-choice movement in the hopes that women won't ever have to resort to that again.

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heypartner

01-23-2001, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by stringthing:
I am assuming nothing more than the fact that the day will come when this abomination is eliminated. These are dark days indeed, and I eagerly await the dawn. I may not live to see it (though I hope I do), but it will come.

So, you await the Rapture?

Stringthing....you cannot abolish abortion any more than you can abolish sins. What exactly are you waiting for?

Jeff

01-23-2001, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by heypartner:
So, you await the Rapture?

Stringthing....you cannot abolish abortion any more than you can abolish sins. What exactly are you waiting for?

A really good cup of coffee I think. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

rimbaud

01-24-2001, 12:10 AM

Steve_Francis_rules,

My "sad..." comment had nothing to do with abortion, it was referring to the body of my post - the idea that Bush would overturn a Supreme Court ruling (because he cannot).

Please do not try to make me feel guilty. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

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EZLN

Francis3422

01-24-2001, 12:14 AM

I am against abortions purely for the fact everyone has the right to live. Living a hard life is still better....... than no life at all. An unborn child is still a child.

Maybe, Maybe no

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"Kenny, The Basketball scientist, Whoo Hoo."
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ZRB

01-24-2001, 01:17 AM

As long as that fetus is in the woman's body, they are a part of that woman's body. A woman has the natural right to choose what happens to their bodies.

StringThing- you are probably a guy. Who the hell are you to judge what women can and can not do to their bodies.

Abortions are important, and I am pro-choice with every fiber in my body.

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"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."

slcrocket

01-24-2001, 01:33 AM

When did this thread change from "Will Bush abolish Abortion" to "Do you think abortion is right?"

****, man, I ain't gettin involved in this one. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

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Jazzkiller

ScreamingRocketJet

01-24-2001, 01:53 AM

Issues like this make me realise how damm lucky I am to live in a country where politics and religion are kept ion very different realms...

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[This message has been edited by ScreamingRocketJet (edited January 24, 2001).]

B-ball freak

01-24-2001, 02:07 AM

Living a hard life is still better....... than no life at all. --- Francis 3422

Perhaps in your case. There are many whose lives are much harder than we can comprehend who may disagree. However, I feel that many people do abuse their right when they may have the means to see to a child - whether by raising it or putting it up for adoption.

edited due to highly offensive original post

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[This message has been edited by B-ball freak (edited January 24, 2001).]

heypartner

01-24-2001, 02:11 AM

alright scratch that...

I'm outta of this thread. bball freak. I just don't understand your point in context of abolishing something that can't be abolished.

Yes, it hits home to many. But what is your point beyond personal anecdote!

[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 24, 2001).]

B-ball freak

01-24-2001, 02:13 AM

maybe regulate would be a better term.

[This message has been edited by B-ball freak (edited January 24, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by B-ball freak (edited January 24, 2001).]

B-ball freak

01-24-2001, 02:18 AM

This post now makes no sense since I edited the previous 2 - sorry

[This message has been edited by B-ball freak (edited January 24, 2001).]

Jeff

01-24-2001, 08:49 AM

I need some morphine just to read this thread. Is that bad? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

RocketMan Tex

01-24-2001, 08:59 AM

Dubya will prance and pose on the issue, even though if the dumbass himself could get pregnant, abortion would be safe, legal and readily available all over the country. He will not go as far as to try to overturn Roe vs. Wade, especially if he wants to get elected to a 2nd term.

By the way, Jeff, if you find any morphine, please share. Sharing is caring, you know! http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

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"Blues is a Healer"
--John Lee Hooker

mc mark

01-24-2001, 09:20 AM

Good Morning Rocket fans!

Originally posted by Jeff:
I need some morphine just to read this thread. Is that bad? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif


Jeff, a good dose of yoga will do ya just as good. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

A said yesterday I wasn't going to say anything, well...

I think we can stay in a "wait and see" mode until it accually comes time to appoint a supreme court judge. That will be the test.

As hard as this is to say, I will reserve judgement until then.

Again, its an issue that splits the country. I think the latest polls show...

47% are pro-choice
45% are pro-life

But on the issue of overturning Roe vs Wade, now thats another question. and I would love to see some figures on that.

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'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'

dc sports

01-24-2001, 10:04 AM

I'm one that thinks the courts, and particularly the Supreme Court, has overstepped it's bounds on several issues, creating social policy and laws that would be better left up to the legislature.

But on this issue, I'm wondering if part of the thought on leaving it alone is to keep good people -- with strong beliefs on this sensitive subject -- from absolutely killing each other.

IMHO -- we may be overstating the subject anyway. a) Bush could not overturn Roe vs. Wade, b) he really couldn't use this as a litmus test, c) even if he appointed a anti-abortion justice(s), it would take years for a case to work through the system, d) even if all this happened, history has shown us that Supreme Court justices don't always vote the way we expect them to -- they like to make up their own minds.

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Stay Cool...

bobrek

01-24-2001, 11:58 AM

Regardless of your feeling about abortion, the following quote by ZRB is quite possibly the saddest thing I have ever read:

"We can not continue to overpopulate the planet.Abortion is necessary for the survival of life on this planet."

I don't think that any public abortion proponent has ever suggested using abortion as a means of population control.

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Timing

01-24-2001, 12:37 PM

I hate this topic but I've gotta jump in here.

Abortion being necessary to control population? What are you, a Chinese government official? You want forced abortions? Or how about laws on how many kids a couple can have? Do you want to send mothers to jail for WANTING children? That's grrrrrrrrreat.

Personally, I would hope there would come a day when abortion would become a choice that is NOT made. There needs to be better education, better birth control, and a better understanding on what a terrible act such as abortion does to our society.

Also, there are many laws restricting what people can and cannot do with their own bodies. The "you can't tell me what to do with my body" argument is weak and tiresome. A person can't injest drugs on their own free will but a woman can end the life of a child? Any way you want to slice it there is something very very wrong about abortion.

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"Somebody DO something out there." -Bill Walton

4chuckie

01-24-2001, 12:42 PM

"A woman has the natural right to choose what happens to their bodies."
I agree with this statement right up until the point that a woman willingly spreads her legs for unprotected sex. Yeah I know condoms or the pill or opther alternatives are not 100% safe, but that is not my point.
My point is the woman did have a choice and she took the chance of an unplanned pregnacy. After that if she chooses an abortion she is taking a life.

Rocketman95

01-24-2001, 12:47 PM

Can someone explain to me the terrible things that abortion has done to our society?

bobrek

01-24-2001, 12:47 PM

Timing - I am assuming that you are not attributing the "overpopulation" quote to me. As I stated, it is a very sad thing when folks such as ZRB write statements like that.

This thread reminds me of an editorial cartoon I saw. A man is looking up towards heaven and says, "God, we have all these diseases, AIDS, cancer and others. Why haven't you sent help?" God replies, "I did send help, you aborted them".

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Rocketman95

01-24-2001, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by bobrek:

This thread reminds me of an editorial cartoon I saw. A man is looking up towards heaven and says, "God, we have all these diseases, AIDS, cancer and others. Why haven't you sent help?" God replies, "I did send help, you aborted them".


That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. What a loving God that person worships. What the ***** ever.

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"He was under more balls than a midget hooker."-Bobby Hill

visit www.swirve.com (http://www.swirve.com), coming January 20th, the top 10 films of 2000!

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rimbaud

01-24-2001, 12:51 PM

Actually, i thought is was very funny!

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4chuckie

01-24-2001, 02:18 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 4chuckie:
"A woman has the natural right to choose what happens to their bodies."
I agree with this statement right up until the point that a woman willingly spreads her legs for unprotected sex. Yeah I know condoms or the pill or opther alternatives are not 100% safe, but that is not my point.
My point is the woman did have a choice and she took the chance of an unplanned pregnacy. After that if she chooses an abortion she is taking a life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff- I said "willingly", I would not use rape and willingly in the same circumstance.

And yeah the fathers does have rights and obligations too. Such as to support any child he fathers.

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bobrek

01-24-2001, 02:25 PM

RM95

I think that even most Pro-Choicers would agree that abortion is a terrible thing. Do you have to be told that killing millions of innocent children does terrible things to a society? That goes without saying. Those are millions of lives that did not reach their potential. They did not have the chance to touch our hearts and spirit, nor we theirs. They did not have the chance to become the next Einstein, Magellan or Jordan. There are millions of parents, grandparents, family members and friends who have to live with the possible grief and regret. Regardless of whther or not you agree with them or not, I am sure that for the vast majority of those that chose abortion, they made a long, thought out and hard decision. They have to live with that every day. It's got to affect them.
.

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Rocketman95

01-24-2001, 02:38 PM

bobrek, no **** it affects them. But don't you think it affects the person that had the child, but couldn't afford to raise it properly? The only people I ever hear minimizing the effects of abortion are conservatives. A lot of pro-lifers I talk to act like people just use abortion as a means of birth control and the act doesn't affect them at all.

And if you want to argue that it's a life that didn't realize its true potential, then I can just as easily argue that pulling out, or using a condom is the same thing. Anyway, I don't believe that something that can't live on its own is a life.

Also, can someone please explain to me how someone can be pro-life, except in the cases of rape or incest. If it's murder, it's murder, is it not?

I still find it interesting that conservatives care more for the unborn child than the child born into poverty.

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"He was under more balls than a midget hooker."-Bobby Hill

visit www.swirve.com (http://www.swirve.com), coming January 20th, the top 10 films of 2000!

and, http://www.geocities.com/clutch34_2000 for great Rocket insight by some of your fellow BBS posters!

Timing

01-24-2001, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman95:
Can someone explain to me the terrible things that abortion has done to our society?

Abortion makes a mockery of the gift of life. It makes our society colder, darker, and less caring. It makes it easier for our society to accept future morally questionable medical practices as the "norm". It paves the way to make it OK to genetically build children, clone people, cross breed humans with animals, etc. Will feminists defend themselves against the use of genetically built eggs because they can't be told what to do with their bodies?

Where is the line?

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"Somebody DO something out there." -Bill Walton

rascal

01-24-2001, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by bobrek:
They did not have the chance to become the next Einstein, Magellan or Jordan.


Well, by that logic, they also didn't have the chance to become the next Ted Bundy or Son of Sam. So by aborting those would-be killers we're simply performing a little pre-emptive capital punishment. No problem there for conservatives, right?

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[This message has been edited by rascal (edited January 24, 2001).]

Timing

01-24-2001, 03:02 PM

On the issue of imposing morality. Government and courts impose morality all day long. Murder is illegal and wrong. Many people equate abortion to murder, thus following that logic abortion should be illegal.

Though I believe imposing morality on others is generally wrong, there does need to be an overall accepted standard of right and wrong in our society. I think abortion is a very serious issue and should be fair game.

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"Somebody DO something out there." -Bill Walton

mc mark

01-24-2001, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Timing:
Abortion makes a mockery of the gift of life. It makes our society colder, darker, and less caring. It makes it easier for our society to accept future morally questionable medical practices as the "norm". It paves the way to make it OK to genetically build children, clone people, cross breed humans with animals, etc. Will feminists defend themselves against the use of genetically built eggs because they can't be told what to do with their bodies?

Where is the line?


Timing these are all your opinions. They are valid.

But, I can make just as many positive assumptions about abortion as you can negative.

Would you even consider anything positive about abortion I would have to say just as valid as yours?

Its all perspective my friend.

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'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'

Timing

01-24-2001, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman95:
bobrek, no **** it affects them. But don't you think it affects the person that had the child, but couldn't afford to raise it properly?

I still find it interesting that conservatives care more for the unborn child than the child born into poverty.



Perhaps if it were easier to adopt a child than to get an abortion, there would be less children in bad situations.

It's not about caring more for one or the other. I don't believe criminals should be put to death, that doesn't mean I care more for them than their victims.

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"Somebody DO something out there." -Bill Walton

Jeff

01-24-2001, 03:15 PM

My problem is that this always seems to be the woman's issue. What about women who weren't raped but whose boyfriends abandon them?

My father was a hospital homebound teacher in HISD for 37 years before he retired this year. He and other teachers in his department had quite a large number of unwed mothers as their responsibility.

The vast majority of them fell into the same category - minorities who were poor and lived on welfare. The father was long gone and they were stuck with the child. MOST of them came from single-parent homes where the father had abandoned them.

According to statistics, only 1 in 10 of these girls would go on to college. Many would end up in jail, on drugs or on welfare. More than half would be pregnant again before the age of 20.

In a recent study written about in the Chronicle, a group studied crime rates 14 years after the Roe v. Wade case assuming that 14 was the year that many children would reach the age when crime tends to begin. They found that youth crime numbers have been reduced dramatically EVERY YEAR following that 14-year marker, especially among poor people. The fewer children born into poverty, the fewer children go on to lives of crime.

The fact is that most women who get abortions, according to Planned Parenthood statistics, have no support from a boyfriend or husband when getting an abortion. The vast majority are young women who's boyfriends have left when they found out the girl was pregnant. Many of them were abused at home. Most would have to drop out of school if they had a child.

I agree that fathers absolutely should have a choice but that assumes that the fathers are around to help. The fathers, in most cases, aren't around and often don't care. The girl is left on her own to take care of a child or to choose an abortion.

I think abortions are awful physically and psychologically for the mother. I would ALWAYS consider it as a last resort. But, I recognize the reality. The more difficult it is to have an abortion, the more mothers will die in an attempt to end their pregnancies, the more children will be abandoned, neglected and/or abused and the more children will grow up in poverty resulting in a world not just difficult for the child but for all of us.

If my wife and I had to make a decision about abortion, we would do it together. But, most women don't have that luxury. Most women are alone.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

Jeff

01-24-2001, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Timing:
Perhaps if it were easier to adopt a child than to get an abortion, there would be less children in bad situations.


Timing: I totally agree with you on that point, however, have you ever checked into adoption? It is difficult for parents to adopt HEALTHY WHITE BABIES, but there are more than enough sick, deformed, minority children available RIGHT NOW without nearly the difficulty or hassle. You can add children from other countries to that list as well - Russia, China, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. The adoption process is MUCH easier and fairly quick. The problem: NO ONE wants them.

The fact is that people who adopt don't usually adopt sick kids, kids with problems, minorities or kids that aren't babies (1 - 5 year olds). They want white healthy babies because the vast majority of people who adopt are white couples.

I wish people would adopt everyone then no abortion would ever be necessary. That just isn't the reality and it has very little to do with the ease of adoption. It has more to do with the choices would-be parents make for what kind of child they want.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

[This message has been edited by Jeff (edited January 24, 2001).]

Timing

01-24-2001, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by mc mark:
Timing these are all your opinions. They are valid.

But, I can make just as many positive assumptions about abortion as you can negative.

Would you even consider anything positive about abortion I would have to say just as valid as yours?

Its all perspective my friend.



I understand the positives of abortion. I'm sure there are thousands of young men and women who have been able to lead fuller, easier lives because they were able to erase a single mistake with an abortion. And even in the case of horrible birth defects, I'm sure many parents are pleased that a child did not have to live a painful life. I totally understand that point of view.

My concern is where it all leads and whether or not these positives outweigh the negatives. I think our society needs to reach a higher consciousness when it comes to these types of issues. I'd prefer not to make it illegal but I'd also prefer that it be seldom used. That's probably wishful thinking but as far as I'm concerned it's the best answer for problems like abortion.

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"Somebody DO something out there." -Bill Walton

Jeff

01-24-2001, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Timing:

I understand the positives of abortion. I'm sure there are thousands of young men and women who have been able to lead fuller, easier lives because they were able to erase a single mistake with an abortion. And even in the case of horrible birth defects, I'm sure many parents are pleased that a child did not have to live a painful life. I totally understand that point of view.

My concern is where it all leads and whether or not these positives outweigh the negatives. I think our society needs to reach a higher consciousness when it comes to these types of issues. I'd prefer not to make it illegal but I'd also prefer that it be seldom used. That's probably wishful thinking but as far as I'm concerned it's the best answer for problems like abortion.



That is probably the best post on abortion we've had on this BBS. You can't get much more honest than that.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

dylan

01-24-2001, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman95:

And if you want to argue that it's a life that didn't realize its true potential, then I can just as easily argue that pulling out, or using a condom is the same thing. Anyway, I don't believe that something that can't live on its own is a life.



Rocketman95, can you please explain this logic? Most PEOPLE can't live on their own; are they alive? Give me a 6 month old baby. I put him in a room with food and water. I leave him alone for five months. I get arrested for child abuse/negligence. But I shouldn't, should I? After all, it wasn't alive, was it? The logic you are trying to use is a losing argument, my friend.

dylan

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Jeff

01-24-2001, 04:05 PM

dylan: I do think you hit on something. This really boils down to what you consider "life". If you believe that life is endowed with a soul at the moment of conception and therefore becomes alive, you are going to be against abortion.

Those who are pro-choice tend to believe that nuturing a child is very different from living with a fetus in your body. When the fetus cannot survive outside the woman's body, it is still considered a non-life by those who do not believe in life at conception. Up until a point, it is just a mass of cells incapable of sustaining itself.

That is the fundamental difference.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

rimbaud

01-24-2001, 04:13 PM

I am very pro-abortion. I do not think we have enough of them on a daily basis. We should have "Prime Time" abortions - televised for pay-per-view. There are plenty of sick people who would shell out some cash. Our society is such a death/blood/violence cult anyway - it would definitely get ratings. Then the profit could go towards our suffering schools. Yes, to "save the children."

Then there could be a 24-hour abortion-a-thon where one doctor has to perform as many as he could in 24 hours without sleep, food, and rest. The same people who were glued to the set, hoping OJ would shoot himself during the Bronco chase would be the same people glued to the set, hoping the doctor makes some horrible mistake in the waning hours.

But, seriously, abortion is just like drugs -- it doesn't matter whether it is legal or illegal, it will still happen. All of this talk is irrelevant.

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Big A, little a bouncing B,
The System might have got you, but it won't get me.

bobrek

01-24-2001, 04:35 PM

RM95

With respect to your following statements:

"And if you want to argue that it's a life that didn't realize its true potential, then I can just as easily argue that pulling out, or using a condom is the same thing."

The Catholic church agrees with this statement. In a nutshell (no pun intended) any type of birth control that prevents the sperm from potentially fertilizing an egg is wrong.

"Also, can someone please explain to me how someone can be pro-life, except in the cases of rape or incest. If it's murder, it's murder, is it not?"

Again, the Catholic church agrees with this statement. No abortion should be permitted, regardless of the situation.

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TheFreak

01-24-2001, 05:52 PM

In a recent study written about in the Chronicle, a group studied crime rates 14 years after the Roe v. Wade case assuming that 14 was the year that many children would reach the age when crime tends to begin. They found that youth crime numbers have been reduced dramatically EVERY YEAR following that 14-year marker, especially among poor people. The fewer children born into poverty, the fewer children go on to lives of crime.

What do the numbers look like if you count all the abortions during that 14-yr period as crimes?

rascal

01-24-2001, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by bobrek:

Again, the Catholic church agrees with this statement. No abortion should be permitted, regardless of the situation.



I'll make the Catholic church a deal. If they can figure out how to stop ALL rape and incest against women, then I'll support their zero stance against abortion. But until that day, abortion needs to remain a viable option.

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Jeff

01-24-2001, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by TheFreak:
What do the numbers look like if you count all the abortions during that 14-yr period as crimes?

Funny.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

moestavern19

01-24-2001, 06:36 PM

A Recent Poll Found That 55% percent of Americans think Abortion should be Outlawed in cases of Unwanted Pregnancies . But 87% Believe Abortion should be Legal in cases of Rape or Incest . This is cleary the line between Conservative and Ultra-Conservative .

(By The Way Jeff I think You just broke DoD's record more Qoutes in a post)

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Introduing the 2092 All Star lineup

SF-Jason Lewinski-Clinton
PF- Kenny Thomas III
C - Jason Williams
SG- Jason Williams
PG- John Stockton

[This message has been edited by moestavern19 (edited January 24, 2001).]

Achebe

01-24-2001, 06:42 PM

dylan: I do think you hit on something. This really boils down to what you consider "life". If you believe that life is endowed with a soul at the moment of conception and therefore becomes alive, you are going to be against abortion.
Those who are pro-choice tend to believe that nuturing a child is very different from living with a fetus in your body. When the fetus cannot survive outside the woman's body, it is still considered a non-life by those who do not believe in life at conception. Up until a point, it is just a mass of cells incapable of sustaining itself.

That is the fundamental difference.

Jeff, I'll go ahead and disagree w/ that one. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

I happen to believe that termination of a pregnancy isn't the same as removing a lump of cells. Life is goal oriented, every organism defends its genetic code. The child in the womb is programmed by the father's dna to grow as agressively as it can. The woman's body does its best to keep the fetus in check before it kills the host (that little bastard, trying to kill its mommy).

Removal of a fetus is as wrong as digging up a sprouting acorn. You are killing a goal-oriented organism, period. It is horrible, and shouldn't be taken lightly.

That being said, I still believe abortion should be legal. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

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We're going to stay together until something happens, if something happens. - Sidney Lowe on Shareef's career in Vancouver.

mrpaige

01-24-2001, 06:55 PM

All I know is that I am never going to have an abortion. Beyond that, it's none of my business what the rest of you do.

Seriously, though, my former wife and I were faced with the abortion question prior to our marriage. We were in high school, and we weren't all that careful and we ended up expecting a child. For us, keeping the baby (it's hard to think of him as a baby since he turns 12 next Friday) was what we thought our best option (and that's turned out to be the right choice in our situation).

But what works for us isn't necessarily the best course of action for everybody. Me, I couldn't handle the thought of aborting a pregnancy that would otherwise result in my becomming a father again. But that's me. It's not my job to tell everybody else what to do.

It is unfortunate that we (and by "we", I mean society as a whole, not the message board "we") can't have much of a civilized debate on abortion and those topics relating to and resulting from abortion. We've got two sides that are stongly adamant that their position is the only right way to look at things and who are often unwilling to give even an inch to an alternate viewpoint.

My own personal view on this issue and many others is to follow the wise teachings of the Great PJ O'Rourke: Mind your own business, and keep your hands to yourself.

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moestavern19

01-24-2001, 07:03 PM

Well said mrpaige , The Bible says "Judge Not lest Ye be Judged" Which means Keep your opinions in your pocket or they will bite you in the ass . If you beleive in what is right you might call abortion "murder" If you believe in what is right you might call abortion "A choice" .
Rape is a very harsh thing , I dont believe a victim Should have to suffer by bearing an unwanted child , but just dont let the Baby grow and then kill it during delivery .

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Introduing the 2092 All Star lineup

SF-Jason Lewinski-Clinton
PF- Kenny Thomas III
C - Jason Williams
SG- Jason Williams
PG- John Stockton

mc mark

01-24-2001, 07:46 PM

timing and mrpaige excellent posts, both!

I am guilty of preaching sometimes. I apologize if I get out of hand. I too have had first hand experience with abortion.

And yes, it was a decision that haunts me sometimes. But I know, deep down, that it was the best decision at the time. And I'm glad the option was there.

Rascal, I wondered when you would chime in.

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'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'

DarkHorse

01-24-2001, 08:46 PM

Okay, while I personally see abortion as a completely and utterly horrid thing in almost every circumstance, (in cases of unwanted pregnancies, I believe that the person should be given the choice, but of course that doesn't mean automatic abortion, either) I don't necessarily believe that it should be made to be illegal.

At the same time, I don't think we should regulate guns. It's been said over and over again. This is something that is going to happen by people in dark alleys no matter what law gets made, and then you just make a mockery of the law itself.

On the other hand, I don't believe that this is something the government should be funding. Government spending is focused way too much on bringing the lowest common denominator up to par with the rest of us. And what does that accomplish?

But of course, this is another fundamental arguement between the liberal and conservative camps.

But to answer the topic, Bush will not make abortion illegal. If anything, it would be a horrendous PR move, and he's much smarter than that. But I believe he will make several moves to make the overall economic scheme of the U.S. fit a more conservative mentality, and that includes cutting spending in areas like this.

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"There are three kinds of lies:
Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..."
- Mark Twain -

Jeff

01-25-2001, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by 4chuckie:
"A woman has the natural right to choose what happens to their bodies."
I agree with this statement right up until the point that a woman willingly spreads her legs for unprotected sex. Yeah I know condoms or the pill or opther alternatives are not 100% safe, but that is not my point.
My point is the woman did have a choice and she took the chance of an unplanned pregnacy. After that if she chooses an abortion she is taking a life.

What about the *****ING FATHER!!!??? Are you kidding me?

How is this the mother's fault? I guess if she was raped, she was asking for it. Nice. Very nice.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

mc mark

01-25-2001, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by Timing:
Also, there are many laws restricting what people can and cannot do with their own bodies. 

There shouldn't be

 The "you can't tell me what to do with my body" argument is weak and tiresome. 

Why? Because you want to impose your morality on others?

THAT IS WEAK AND TIRESOME!

A person can't injest drugs on their own free will but a woman can end the life of a child? 

I'll agree with you here. It does seem ridiculous.

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'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'

dc sports

01-25-2001, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Jeff:
What about the *****ING FATHER!!!??? Are you kidding me?

How is this the mother's fault? I guess if she was raped, she was asking for it. Nice. Very nice.



Jeff, I think he was talking about the mother's right to have an abortion, not that she had sole responsibility for the child.

I think it's a given that it takes two to tango, and that both parents share responsibility for a child. The question is whether the mother, once she's gone bowling, has the right to terminate the pregnancy.

I know that it is a totally separate issue, (not that that's ever been done before http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif ) but the father of a child has no choice with regards to an abortion.

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Stay Cool...

ZRB

01-25-2001, 01:29 AM

My point on overpopulation is that, the less unwanted children, the better. Abortion obviously does not solve the problem, but it slows it down. How are my statements sad? If all the pregnancies were wanted, there would be no hunger, because people would always be in the right situation to have children. That is not the case. You can't keep throwing unwanted children into adoption agencies. They will run out of room.
You can't simply dismiss my comments. Overpopulation is a huge issue, no matter what the republicans like to say. Preventing unwanted pregnancies is something that must be allowed to happen. People aren't going to stop having sex, and condoms do break.
I'm sorry, but until that fetus is taken out of the womb, they are not officially alive. They are a part of the woman's body.

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"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."

TheFreak

01-25-2001, 10:56 AM

I'm sorry, but until that fetus is taken out of the womb, they are not officially alive. They are a part of the woman's body.

Not according to Arkansas law. (http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001956.html) Two men were charged for murder for killing a fetus.

MadMax

01-25-2001, 11:26 AM

Someone wrote on here that they didn't view something that couldn't live on its own a living thing. The fact is, no child, even after it's born, could possibly live on its own for some time. It requires someone to feed it and to nurture it. (yes nurture...read about hitler's little experiments on jewish babies where he deprived them of human contact).

The fact is..if you kill a pregnant woman, in many states you be held liable for the death of the child inside. Probate law has accounted for the rights of unborn children for centuries. Doctors in Europe have recently discovered that babies living inside of mom's stomach have memories..they react similarly to the same beats or voices they hear. When my wife was pregnant we went to the Sting concert at Jones Hall. My son danced and kicked like crazy in the womb. I have a hard time not believing that he was a living thing! He was reacting to the world around him, however limited it might be. He reacted to my voice and to my wife's. It wasn't his choice to be brought into the world...but we want to allow a mother to make the choice to take him right out of it. What absolutely sickens me is that some of you would scream like crazy if a seal pup were killed for its coat (despite the fact it too can't live without the care and milk of its mother) but you justify the murder of babies...particularly through partial-birth abortions.

I'm very happy to see some of the pro-choicers here having negative reactions to the statement that abortion would be a great tool for population control. I read another study recently that tried to say that crime had decreased because of more abortions. This reminds me of "1984" or "Brave New World" where we justify any means to meet an outcome that is clean and safe. Life is not clean and safe. Life often sucks. But it is still extremely fragile and precious and no one brought into it should be deprived of it against his choice. We have a word for that, and it's called murder.

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rimbaud

01-25-2001, 11:51 AM

Max,

You touched on something that is very true - most vegetarian/vegan types are pretty pro-choice, seeing no problems with such views.

I think that, at face value, that is a definite contradiction - people who supposedly "love life" so much that they do not kill animals will not love the life of a fetus. Many vegans feel that even amoebas are life that must be protected.

I think the problem (for the argument) is that these people will usually not see an abortion as killing because they feel it is not life, etc. This is where you run into the wall - if someone feels strongly that it is not a life, they will be hard to convince.

Personally, I would never want to go the abortion route - if my wife got pregnant now, something for which we are not ready, we would have a baby and just make due. However, I think that since abortions will continue no matter what and there are so many polar views that it should not be banned completely. I, ultimately, feel that it is none of my business so I generally keep out of such discussions.

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Big A, little a bouncing B,
The System might have got you, but it won't get me.

stringthing

01-26-2001, 07:31 AM

It was pointed out earlier in this thread that I was probably a guy and that contributed to my view on abortion. In fact, I am. What difference does that make? By that criteria I should be an ardent supporter of this crime. I mean, if I make a mistake and knock up some poor innocent girl, it would be nice to just erase my mistake and move on unscathed. What a great concept, right?

The fact is, irregardless of what pro-choice supporters will tell you, the majority of all abortions are crimes of convinience by women who ARE of legal age (20-25 or 27 depending on which set of stats you are reading). Most times there are economic reasons, or perhaps the thought that "I am just not ready yet" "I am not ready to give up my youth" "Its too much responsiblity" etc.

This is a problem in our society. People will always want the ability to avoid taking responsibility for their actions. Jeff, you suprise me. For all the karmic, "higher consciousness " crap you spout, you of all people should place a high value on the soul of a human being. I understand the finacial constraints of having a child, coupled with immense responsibility, but allowing women to murder the child to ease their economic concerns is NOT the answer.

[This message has been edited by stringthing (edited January 26, 2001).]

zaxis

01-26-2001, 07:45 AM

Amen, stringthing.

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Jeff

01-26-2001, 09:21 AM

Jeff, you suprise me. For all the karmic, "higher consciousness " crap you spout, you of all people should place a high value on the soul of a human being.

Fair enough. I do believe in karma and I place a very high value on what you refer to as the soul, but I don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe in reincarnation. I believe that, prior to our birth, we conciously choose our birth (our parents, our birthplace, our problems, etc) as part of that great karmic circle - that means we even choose not to be born. So, before you go judging my "karmic crap," try to get where I'm coming from. It is different from what you believe but it is my belief and you lecturing me doesn't make your argument any stronger.

Beyond that, I realize the contradiction. Even the Dalai Lama does not agree with the concept of abortion. I don't like it and would not choose it if it were my choice to make, but I recognize that there is a reality out there of which I cannot control. If abortions were outlawed, they would continue just like drugs and drunk driving.

Outlawing drugs has done nothing but get us jails full of addicts. The amount of drunk driving accidents has actually INCREASED despite laws and preaching to the contrary.

As to the argument of life, Max you make a strong case. I don't agree with killing animals for MY food, but I can't stop you from doing it yourself. Also, the idea of nurturing is quite different from the act of breathing. Up to the end of the first trimester, the growing fetus could not be saved by any miracle of modern science. No nurturing could do it. It is not alive.

I wasn't going to post anything else in this thread at all. Like rimbaud, I feel that it really isn't my business to dig in the lives of other people with things that are this personal in nature. I guess I let the emotions get the better of me earlier in this thread because I've been around too many mothers who abuse their children, drink or do drugs when they are pregnant and live in poverty with their children - and those are just the teenagers.

I have seen the unfortunate results of a brilliant little girl turn to drugs before the age of 10 because she was negleted by her mother and abused (physically and sexually) by her mother's boyfriend who cared for her during the day while mom was working to feed her, the boyfriend and her 5 other kids.

I guess I am just frustrated by a system that believes in justice for the unborn but not compassion for the living. The moment our society values the destitute, the suffering and the abused, abortions will no longer be necessary.

I'm sorry if I sounded pissed. Just because I believe in "karmic crap" as stringthing so delicately put it doesn't mean I'm not human and that I don't have my own contradictions. Fortunately, I've never had to face abortion in my own life and I hope I never do.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

Jeff

01-26-2001, 09:27 AM

By the way, stringthing, I've never called your beliefs "Jesus heaven and hell bullsh!t" (which I don't believe anyway) so I'd appreciate it if you had at least a measure of respect for mine. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't remain civil.

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Me fail English? That's unpossible.

[This message has been edited by Jeff (edited January 26, 2001).]

rimbaud

01-26-2001, 11:17 AM

stringie,

You are one classy guy. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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Big A, little a bouncing B,
The System might have got you, but it won't get me.

ZRB

01-26-2001, 03:09 PM

You guys really blew my population comments out of proportion. My point is that abortion prevents unwanted children. The less unwanted children, the better. With overpopulation eating up the world's food supplies, it is best for people to only have children if they want to. Anyway, would you rather a woman toss her child into a dumpster, or get an abortion. I know I would chose the latter. I stick to my point that as long as the fetus is attached to the mother physically, it is simply a part of her body.

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"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."