Well-done, well-stated article on sports journalism (Ambush interview discussed)

[msn]

ESPN journalism: The ups and downs of coloring outside the lines (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=schreiber_leanne&id=3398372)<br />
"...In my headier moments, I even imagine a cable universe that realizes the blogosphere provides all the outlets anyone could want for the venting of both informed and uninformed opinion, and that what news organizations can best do is provide information that cannot be found elsewhere, instead of opinion that can be found everywhere...."<br />
<hr>
Indeed! A great read. She has a solid take on E:60's tasteless "ambush" interview of Tejada. ESPN is defending what they did, and it's disgusting. The only thing missing from this piece is the obvious issue with ESPN's lying to Tejada about the nature of the interview in the first place. I guess, since Tejada lied, it is now OK to lie to him?

[Ottomaton]

I guess I should have realized it wouldn't be discussed, but in watching the game on ESPN yesterday, I found discussion of the ambush incident noticibly absent despite repeated fawning over and rehashing of Tejada's story and recent history.

[CaseyH]

the funny part is I have yet to meet an Astros fan who cares. It might be because he is hitting over .300

[Groogrux]

the funny part is I have yet to meet an Astros fan who cares. It might be because he is hitting over .300

I have yet to meet a baseball fan who cares. Of course, I'm not sure I've met a baseball fan who cares about steroids either.

[pgabriel]

I'm not sure I've met a baseball fan who cares about steroids either.


you can't be serious. i know i know, record attendance, but just because they aren't throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn't mean they don't care

[CaseyH]

you can't be serious. i know i know, record attendance, but just because they aren't throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn't mean they don't care
I think they care more about finding ways to bash people they hate than actually hating the drugs. Its fun to kill Clemens and Bonds but no one gives a crap that Andy did it.

[Mr. Clutch]

you can't be serious. i know i know, record attendance, but just because they aren't throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn't mean they don't care

Exactly. I definitely care. I care that Tejada used 'roids and basically lied about his age all these years, it does not speak well on his character. Just like I bashed Bonds and Clemens I will bash him as well. Yeah and ESPN sucks too, but that's a separate issue.

[Mr. Clutch]

Here's another Houston fan who cares:

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/ballz/2008/05/an_open_letter_to_fans_of_migu.php

An Open Letter to Fans of Miguel Tejada
Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:08:53 PM
Houston sports fan, you are a hypocritical idiot.
What am I talking about? Miguel Tejada, that’s what I’m talking about. This guy can do no wrong in your eyes. So what if he used steroids? So what if he lied under oath to the Feds? So what if he committed fraud for 14 years? He’s getting hits, so you don’t care.

But it’s funny how it mattered with Barry Bonds. It’s funny how Barry Bonds was the most evil man in the world. How he’s supposed to be in jail and how he’s a disgrace to the game of baseball for taking steroids and lying.

The only thing I can figure is that Barry Bonds is a dick, and Miguel Tejada’s not. Which to me seems to mean that it doesn’t matter what rules you break, or what lies you tell. As long as you’re a nice guy, it’s A-OK.

The San Francisco Giant baseball fans were mocked about the country for standing up for Barry Bonds. But here are the Houston Astros fans are standing up for a great man with a great personality who hits home runs for sick little kids in the hospital.

You, Astros fan, are just as bad as the Giants fan. Whether you want to admit it or not. And I’ll tell you what else is a problem: the idiots over at the Chron. When the San Fran Chron had a chance to nail Barry Bonds, they risked jail time to get the truth. Whereas the morons over at the Houston Chron (Brian McTaggart excepted) celebrate Tejada. Like Richard Justice writing that Tejada’s “been a perfect acquisition in every sense of the word.”

Perfect expect for his taking steroids. Perfect expect for his lying to the Feds. Perfect except for his 14 year history of committing fraud. Perfect. Just like Barry Bonds is perfect except for taking steroids. Just like Barry Bonds is perfect except for lying to the Feds. Perfect except for the 14 year history of committing fraud. But wait a minute, I got that wrong. Barry Bonds didn’t go around for 14 years lying about his age and cheating his bosses out of millions of dollars, so maybe his fraud’s not as bad as Tejada’s.

Barry Bonds can’t get a job in baseball. But Houston is embracing Miguel Tejada as if he’s a native son. No wonder Jose de Jesus Ortiz can go on ESPN and talk about Houston supporting Roger Clemens. Or that billboards can up throughout the city talking about the city’s support for Roger Clemens. After all, with the way Tejada has been embraced, you’ve just got to know that Rocket would be embraced upon his return.

I’ll say this: when the New York Yankees come to town, I better not be hearing any negative comments about Jason Giambi or Andy Pettitte. You better be giving them standing ovations like you do Miguel Tejada. Because at least they’ve admitted their actions were wrong whereas Tejada has yet to apologize for any of his actions.

And just keep telling yourself that lie: it’s only B12. It’s only B12. – John Royal

[cardpire]

ESPN journalism: The ups and downs of coloring outside the lines (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=schreiber_leanne&id=3398372)<br />
"...In my headier moments, I even imagine a cable universe that realizes the blogosphere provides all the outlets anyone could want for the venting of both informed and uninformed opinion, and that what news organizations can best do is provide information that cannot be found elsewhere, instead of opinion that can be found everywhere...."<br />
<hr>
Indeed! A great read. She has a solid take on E:60's tasteless "ambush" interview of Tejada. ESPN is defending what they did, and it's disgusting. The only thing missing from this piece is the obvious issue with ESPN's lying to Tejada about the nature of the interview in the first place. I guess, since Tejada lied, it is now OK to lie to him?

i think it's a bit unnecessary to ambush tejada like they did, and they are running the risk of athletes not trusting them and granting them interviews in the future because of it, but i wouldnt call it disgusting. tejada was gonna have to face the music about that at some point whether he liked it or not, and espn wanted to get some shock value out of it.

they uncovered the dirt, and this is how they chose to question him about it. i don't feel sorry for tejada - he committed the crime. do you feel sorry for the "to catch a predator" perverts when they get their lives ruined on national tv? that's just about an exact comparison.

i think your heart goes out to tejada because he's on your hometown team and you're a fan of his, first of all, and second of all, because, in your opinion, forging your age isn't a serious crime.

[EbolaScola]

i think it's a bit unnecessary to ambush tejada like they did, and they are running the risk of athletes not trusting them and granting them interviews in the future because of it, but i wouldnt call it disgusting. tejada was gonna have to face the music about that at some point whether he liked it or not, and espn wanted to get some shock value out of it.

they uncovered the dirt, and this is how they chose to question him about it. i don't feel sorry for tejada - he committed the crime. do you feel sorry for the "to catch a predator" perverts when they get their lives ruined on national tv? that's just about an exact comparison.

i think your heart goes out to tejada because he's on your hometown team and you're a fan of his, first of all, and second of all, because, in your opinion, forging your age isn't a serious crime.

Agree. I can see why he changed his age, though. However, I want to know why he changed his name from "Tejeda" to "Tejada".

[msn]

i think it's a bit unnecessary to ambush tejada like they did, and they are running the risk of athletes not trusting them and granting them interviews in the future because of it, but i wouldnt call it disgusting.
Lies are disgusting. ESPN lied to Tejada *and* to the Astros about the nature of the interview. It's disgusting. And reprehensible. And juvenile. And utterly unbefitting an internationally respected television/news network.

tejada was gonna have to face the music about that at some point whether he liked it or not,
Certainly. His lie is *also* disgusting. I have never defended his lies. Liars suck, Tejada included.

and espn wanted to get some shock value out of it. they uncovered the dirt, and this is how they chose to question him about it.
...on a show that they want to use to gain their network credibility as a news network, more than just an entertainment network. And they lied to do it. Sorry, but two wrongs don't make a right. Both parties are equally disgusting.

do you feel sorry for the "to catch a predator" perverts when they get their lives ruined on national tv? that's just about an exact comparison.
An exact comparison??? Deranged, evil freaks who stalk and prey on children compare to a kid who lied about his age with hopes to finally catch a break for his impoverished family? What in the hell is wrong with you? Tejada lied, and that's disgusting, and he's indeed guilty of fraud. Holy crap, man. If you want to believe fraud is equal to child molestation, go right ahead. But that's just sick. I can't believe you even said that.

i think your heart goes out to tejada because he's on your hometown team and you're a fan of his, first of all, and second of all, because, in your opinion, forging your age isn't a serious crime.
Thanks for the amateur psychoanalysis, but you missed. Tejada's actions and ESPN's actions must be judged separately as they are separate parties. Both are wrong. Both disgust me.

Liars suck. That is all.

[cardpire]

Lies are disgusting. ESPN lied to Tejada *and* to the Astros about the nature of the interview. It's disgusting. And reprehensible. And juvenile. And utterly unbefitting an internationally respected television/news network.


Certainly. His lie is *also* disgusting. I have never defended his lies. Liars suck, Tejada included.


...on a show that they want to use to gain their network credibility as a news network, more than just an entertainment network. And they lied to do it. Sorry, but two wrongs don't make a right. Both parties are equally disgusting.


An exact comparison??? Deranged, evil freaks who stalk and prey on children compare to a kid who lied about his age with hopes to finally catch a break for his impoverished family? What in the hell is wrong with you? Tejada lied, and that's disgusting, and he's indeed guilty of fraud. Holy crap, man. If you want to believe fraud is equal to child molestation, go right ahead. But that's just sick. I can't believe you even said that.


Thanks for the amateur psychoanalysis, but you missed. Tejada's actions and ESPN's actions must be judged separately as they are separate parties. Both are wrong. Both disgust me.

Liars suck. That is all.


sorry, but casually adding, "well, i ALSO think tejada is disgusting because he lied too" and "well, two wrongs don't make a right", in a crying effort to support your stance doesn't work. if you thought that from the get-go, you clearly would have mentioned that in some form in your original post, rather than approaching it with the rabid anger supporting espn and in defense of tejada as you did. the ice is starting to break on you realizing your hypocrisy though, so i'm glad i could help you there.


let's me clarify the most obvious point that blew over your head....never did i say that child molestation was equal to lying about your age. I am saying that Dateline NBC is using the exact same lack of journalistic integrity that E:60 used to "ambush" tejada. they get online, trick mentally ill perverts into thinking they are underaged children, and convince them to travel to a house where they then effectively put an end to these people's lives in front of an audience of millions.

do you find NBC disgusting for doing this?

[MadMax]

do you find NBC disgusting for doing this?

absolutely i do. there are a couple of threads about that you can dig up.

[yobod]

they uncovered the dirt, and this is how they chose to question him about it. i don't feel sorry for tejada - he committed the crime. do you feel sorry for the "to catch a predator" perverts when they get their lives ruined on national tv? that's just about an exact comparison.

i think your heart goes out to tejada because he's on your hometown team and you're a fan of his, first of all, and second of all, because, in your opinion, forging your age isn't a serious crime.

EXACT COMPARISON?!? You're calling Tejada, who lied about his age so he could get a $2,000 minor league contract and leave his SHACK in the Dominican Republic, the EXACT SAME as a scum-of-the-Earth pervert who preys on the innocence of a little child?? Get some freaking perspective. Tejada's lie did not affect ANYBODY.....he's still playing the game at the same level and intensity as he did when he was 21 years old. Ask the Athletics or the Orioles if they gave a crap that he was 2 years older than what he said back when he was playing for them....or hell, ask the Astros NOW. However, ask the young kids, or ask their parents, if they give a damn about how a sexual predator affected their lives. Congratulations on making the most asinine, baseless, STUPID argument I have ever read on this board. I hope you get flamed HARD for this.

And our heart goes out to him because A) you're telling me you wouldn't do the same in his shoes? A 19 year old KID who's being told to say he's 17 so he has the chance to set his family up for life? B) like you said, he's an Astro, and as an Astro fan, I will support him. I might not agree with everything, and I might not believe him when he says he didn't do steroids, but I will never actively root against an Astro....ever.

[cardpire]

absolutely i do. there are a couple of threads about that you can dig up.

i was asking him. he obviously does not think that's disgusting, given the tone of his post when he addressed that in the reply...just am attempting to get him to realize his hypocrisy.

[yobod]

sorry, but casually adding, "well, i ALSO think tejada is disgusting because he lied too" and "well, two wrongs don't make a right", in a crying effort to support your stance doesn't work. if you thought that from the get-go, you clearly would have mentioned that in some form in your original post, rather than approaching it with the rabid anger supporting espn and in defense of tejada as you did. the ice is starting to break on you realizing your hypocrisy though, so i'm glad i could help you there.


let's me clarify the most obvious point that blew over your head....never did i say that child molestation was equal to lying about your age. I am saying that Dateline NBC is using the exact same lack of journalistic integrity that E:60 used to "ambush" tejada. they get online, trick mentally ill perverts into thinking they are underaged children, and convince them to travel to a house where they then effectively put an end to these people's lives in front of an audience of millions.

do you find NBC disgusting for doing this?

You're calling him out for not stating everything in his original post, and calling him a hypocrite, when you're guilty of the EXACT same thing. Never in your original post do you say ANYTHING about the exact comparison being about the journalistic integrity of these news corporations. You asked if we felt sorry for the guys who get caught on dateline, just as we feel sorry for Tejada.....implying that our sympathies lie with the criminal. I am not condoning anything that Tejada has done, just as I am not condoning anything those Dateline guys have done....but there HAS to be a balance to journalism which dictates how far you are allowed to go as a reporter. Otherwise, a reporter could come right up to you today, start bombarding you with all sorts of questions, then play the footage of you hemming and hawing your way around them.....even though you are innocent of everything. And no, I am not implying that Tejada is innocent of anything, nor am I implying that the Dateline guys are innocent.....BUT, there is an absolute difference in the crimes that were committed. Tejada lied about his age to give himself, and his family, a better opportunity to move up in life....those Dateline guys violated a child. The ends, though, don't always justify the means.

[cardpire]

EXACT COMPARISON?!? You're calling Tejada, who lied about his age so he could get a $2,000 minor league contract and leave his SHACK in the Dominican Republic, the EXACT SAME as a scum-of-the-Earth pervert who preys on the innocence of a little child?? Get some freaking perspective. Tejada's lie did not affect ANYBODY.....he's still playing the game at the same level and intensity as he did when he was 21 years old. Ask the Athletics or the Orioles if they gave a crap that he was 2 years older than what he said back when he was playing for them....or hell, ask the Astros NOW. However, ask the young kids, or ask their parents, if they give a damn about how a sexual predator affected their lives. Congratulations on making the most asinine, baseless, STUPID argument I have ever read on this board. I hope you get flamed HARD for this.

And our heart goes out to him because A) you're telling me you wouldn't do the same in his shoes? A 19 year old KID who's being told to say he's 17 so he has the chance to set his family up for life? B) like you said, he's an Astro, and as an Astro fan, I will support him. I might not agree with everything, and I might not believe him when he says he didn't do steroids, but I will never actively root against an Astro....ever.

wow...just...wow. there is so much lack of knowledge, misunderstanding, incoherence, and idiocy crammed into these two paragraphs, that i'm actually impressed.

i already touched on some of this in my last post, but to be completely and brutally honest- and i apologize for putting you beneath me- you sound too unintelligent and thickheaded for me to even respond to, and attempting to explain why would be a losing battle. i am certain that all of my responses would fall on deaf ears and you would meet any of them with more irrationality and shouting.

[msn]

sorry, but casually adding, "well, i ALSO think tejada is disgusting because he lied too" and "well, two wrongs don't make a right", in a crying effort to support your stance doesn't work. if you thought that from the get-go, you clearly would have mentioned that in some form in your original post
April 14, 2008 (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=3623638&postcount=40)
They could have reported the piece and shown us all his birth certificate without the whole interview-on-false-pretenses nonsense.

Tejada lied, and liars suck--but that doesn't make what ESPN did credible "journalism". It was bush league. The investigation was fine, wanting to report the information was fine, but lying to Tejada about the nature of the interview, and springing that on him like some kind of subpoenaed (sp?) soon-to-be-convicted criminal in the stand on trial was *not*.

Bush.
Indeed. The actions of the two have to be viewed within their separate contexts. Tejada lied, and he should have known, especially after the conundrum a few years back, that the gig would be up one day.

To say ESPN was bush league--which they were--is not to beg any sympathy for Tejada.
To me the funniest part is that Tejada said he wanted to get this off his chest and told the Astros because he wanted to be a man or whatever.

HAHAHA

He got busted and wanted to tell them before the story broke. This is like a cheating husband getting arrested at a whore house and then telling his wife before his trial date and saying "I just wanted to tell you the truth." Precisely--that has been my impression of Tejada in this the entire time.

It also erases whatever shred of doubt I had left as to whether he did steroids. Dude is obviously very comfortable with lying in any context.
That *was* my stance from the get-go. I called him out for his lies from day one. And, no, I *don't* have to prequalify my every statement on an Internet BBS to appease sanctimonious, arrogant judgementalists like yourself.

the ice is starting to break on you realizing your hypocrisy though, so i'm glad i could help you there.
Your arrogance is on display. You don't need my help or anyone's there.

let's me clarify the most obvious point that blew over your head....never did i say that child molestation was equal to lying about your age....
...but you said it's OK to treat them the same. And you said, "that's just about an exact comparison." Not quite "exact": one is a heinous, evil, child-preying freak, and the other is an athlete who is a cheater and a liar.

do you find NBC disgusting for doing this?
Yes, come to think of it. I've actually never seen these reports and didn't know they existed, but from what you describe, it sounds disgusting to me. Lock the bastards up, cut their nuts off, whatever, but I don't need to see it on television. And you know what, their families don't need to see it, either. The family gets punished *enough* for having that in their midst; let's go ahead and emblazen their name and images of their home and community on national television--with no warning. Guilty by association, right?

Since you brought it up, American "journalism", as a whole, is a big smelly pile of **** right now, but that's not a "Houston Sports" conversation.
___________________________________________________

So, to summarize what's happened here: I made a point about ESPN (the thread is about ESPN, not Tejada), you jumped in and made an incorrect assumption about my point, then used that assumption to post some inaccurate psychobabble about me and call me a hypocrite, then sanctimoniously declare that you're glad to have "helped".

Awesome.

[yobod]

wow...just...wow. there is so much lack of knowledge, misunderstanding, incoherence, and idiocy crammed into these two paragraphs, that i'm actually impressed.

i already touched on some of this in my last post, but to be completely and brutally honest- and i apologize for putting you beneath me- you sound too unintelligent and thickheaded for me to even respond to, and attempting to explain why would be a losing battle. i am certain that all of my responses would fall on deaf ears and you would meet any of them with more irrationality and shouting.

The fact of the matter is you've been called out by a few different people for making sweeping generalizations about the way the whole interview was handled, and then when you've been challenged, you've taken the holier-than-thou approach and insulted anybody who had the audacity to question you. You're calling people hypocrites and idiots for misunderstanding what you said, when in reality, you're the one who is having trouble comprehending the arguments of others.

The essence of the debate is that it is very possible to disagree with both the criminal and the journalist. That is something that you are not wrapping your mind around. By saying that the journalist was out of order in the Tejada interview, I or anyone else is NOT saying that Tejada was justified in what he did (and yes, I do not think it was as despicable an act as other people do....I, however, do believe that it sheds some light on other, more egregious acts that he probably lied about), but I do believe there is a certain code with which journalists should act. That code was broken by ESPN, just as it is being broken by Dateline.

And I still think you should be flamed for making your comparison, which you are. Insulting me, getting personal with your arguments, and calling me an idiot only show that in reality, it's you that is impossible to have a discussion with.

[cardpire]

you are calling me out for being sanctimounious, after ranting how absolutely disgusting lying is and how disgusting liars are. congrats, i can assume you've never told a lie in your life.

you're right...you "don't have to prequalify every statement you make on an internet bbs" (funny how you dismiss and diminish the same medium that you apparently rely on so heavily to voice your opinions). better you should assume that everybody reading the thread that you started has memorized all the posts that you've ever made. i will give you credit though for your documented stance on tejada, and apologize for the accusation (although had no reason to assume anything otherwise, given the tone of your original post). i stand corrected. one thing i'd like to add though, in your prior posts, you were referring to what ESPN did as "bush league"...that i agree with, and said so in as many words in my initial reply. "bush league" is a far, far cry from "disgusting" though.

once again, and i don't understand why i have to explain this more than once, but i'm saying what ESPN did was no different than what Dateline NBC does, not that lying about your age is relatable to child molestation.

"Lock the bastards up, cut their nuts off, whatever, but I don't need to see it on television. "

so, just to clarify, you are now saying that it IS perfectly ok to lie and dupe, and you are in full support of it, as long as it isn't broadcast on your tv set?

[cardpire]

The fact of the matter is you've been called out by a few different people for making sweeping generalizations.

Insulting me, getting personal with your arguments, and calling me an idiot only show that in reality, it's you that is impossible to have a discussion with.


"a few different people": 1) the original poster (who i'm debating with). 2) you (seemingly clueless).

for the other comment, you seem to be delusional, because those are all the exact things that you did and which i replied to with the same tone after you did it.

also, continually begging everybody to flame me isn't exactly going to get anybody to take anything you say seriously. that's just a bizarre thing to do.

[msn]

you are calling me out for being sanctimounious, after ranting how absolutely disgusting lying is and how disgusting liars are.
You posted condescending, patronizing psychobabble at me, called me a hypocrite, and then viciously patronized someone else. So yes, I'm calling you out. You don't want to be called out, don't do crap like that.

better you should assume that everybody reading the thread that you started has memorized all the posts that you've ever made
No; better I should assume that others have the intelligence to judge the merits of each party separately. That's what I get for assuming. That statement was mean-spirited and unfair, so I apologize. But there's more than one perspective possible in a conversation, and when you only look from your own perspective (and refuse to even consider other viewpoints), you end up publishing gems like this:
to be completely and brutally honest- and i apologize for putting you beneath me- you sound too unintelligent and thickheaded for me to even respond to
"wow. just wow."

funny how you dismiss and diminish the same medium that you apparently rely on so heavily to voice your opinions
I'm here to hang out and discuss sports because it's fun. I don't "rely heavily" upon this BBS for anything, other than perhaps some workday entertainment and sports discussion. But thanks again for more assumption. You would do well to discuss the topic only, and not the character of those discussing it--especially those you've never met.

so, just to clarify, you are now saying that it IS perfectly ok to lie and dupe, and you are in full support of it, as long as it isn't broadcast on your tv set?
Do you really need clarification? Weren't you just chastising me at the beginning of this same post for my criticism of this behavior? Did you ask this question just to be combative (again)?

[cardpire]

You posted condescending, patronizing psychobabble at me, called me a hypocrite, and then viciously patronized someone else. So yes, I'm calling you out. You don't want to be called out, don't do crap like that.


No; better I should assume that others have the intelligence to judge the merits of each party separately. That's what I get for assuming. That statement was mean-spirited and unfair, so I apologize. But there's more than one perspective possible in a conversation, and when you only look from your own perspective (and refuse to even consider other viewpoints), you end up publishing gems like this:

"wow. just wow."


I'm here to hang out and discuss sports because it's fun. I don't "rely heavily" upon this BBS for anything, other than perhaps some workday entertainment and sports discussion. But thanks again for more assumption. You would do well to discuss the topic only, and not the character of those discussing it--especially those you've never met.


Do you really need clarification? Weren't you just chastising me at the beginning of this same post for my criticism of this behavior? Did you ask this question just to be combative (again)?

anybody care to play a game of "count the hypocritical statements in this msn meltdown" with me?

look man, i'll gladly debate the topic that you originally posted about with you, but i'm not giving in to your verbal assault. i'll make one last assumption: you are either in a foul mood or are a generally unhappy person.

as for your defending the other poster and rushing to his defense, he met my harmless opinions in my reply to your original posting with unnecessary and unfounded slander and juvenility, rather than actually trying to make coherent debate, and i dismissed him accordingly. it's pretty darn weak that you overlook all of his disparaging remarks just because he's on your side of the argument though.

and you can call me out all day and night until your heart's content - this is but an internet bbs.

[msn]

look man, i'll gladly debate the topic that you originally posted about with you, but i'm not giving in to your verbal assault. i'll make one last assumption: you are either in a foul mood or are a generally unhappy person.
--you accused me of excusing Tejada's lie while criticizing ESPN's lie.
--you called me a hypocrite, over and over and over again
--you called me a "generally unhappy person"

Yeah, I'm launching a "verbal assault".
_________________________________________________________

You'll gladly debate the original topic? OK. After making incorrect assumptions and being corrected while still calling me names, here's where the original debate stands:

--What ESPN did, in my opinion, is *both* bush league and disgusting. That's what this thread is about.
--What Tejada did, while it was *not* the thread topic, is *also* disgusting.

What is your response to the topic at hand? Or do you prefer to continue to swipe at my character?

[bnb]

Am I the only one who thinks that what Tejada did was not disgusting??

He lied about his age to get a $2000 minor league contract. Once there, he had to compete amongst all the other prospects to earn his promotions up the ranks. He had no real advantage. He wasn't a ringer on a little league world series team or anything of the sort. His age may be an issue for his Astros long term deal....but other then that....what am I missing?

[cardpire]

You'll gladly debate the original topic? OK. After making incorrect assumptions and being corrected while still calling me names, here's where the original debate stands:

--What ESPN did, in my opinion, is *both* bush league and disgusting. That's what this thread is about.
--What Tejada did, while it was *not* the thread topic, is *also* disgusting.

What is your response to the topic at hand? Or do you prefer to continue to swipe at my character?

no further response. you clarified your position. those are your opinions, and, now that i know that you feel the same way about tejada as you do espn, i understand that you werent being hypocritical. was it really that illogical of an assumption for me to make, given your thread-starting post and no prior knowledge of your stance, that you were completely sympathizing with tejada there?

in my opinion, what espn did was bush league, and what tejada did was dishonest (obviously), but "disgusting" is too strong of a word to describe what either side did.

[pgabriel]

Am I the only one who thinks that what Tejada did was not disgusting??

He lied about his age to get a $2000 minor league contract. Once there, he had to compete amongst all the other prospects to earn his promotions up the ranks. He had no real advantage. He wasn't a ringer on a little league world series team or anything of the sort. His age may be an issue for his Astros long term deal....but other then that....what am I missing?

the sports journalism industry in this country have to justify their 24hr a day 7 days a week presence by doing investigative pieces on guys from latin american trying to escape poverty and live their dream

[Raven]

the sports journalism industry in this country have to justify their 24hr a day 7 days a week presence by doing investigative pieces on guys from latin american trying to escape poverty and live their dream

It's a bit more complicated. Maybe a team signs a guy to a huge contract and finds out later that he's two or three years older than they thought. Maybe they wouldn't have offered the player such a long term deal, if they knew how old he really was.

[msn]

was it really that illogical of an assumption for me to make, given your thread-starting post and no prior knowledge of your stance, that you were completely sympathizing with tejada there?
Perhaps, but could you have at least asked without all the name-calling and lecturing?

in my opinion, what espn did was bush league, and what tejada did was dishonest (obviously), but "disgusting" is too strong of a word to describe what either side did.
That's perfectly reasonable. The Internet is a haven for hyperbole, and I am often guilty.

[cardpire]

Perhaps, but could you have at least asked without all the name-calling and lecturing?

re-read my initial response and tell me if the tone of it really warranted the tone of yours and the other guys responses to it.

[msn]

re-read my initial response and tell me if the tone of it really warranted the tone of yours and the other guys responses to it.
OK, I'm sorry I asked what in the hell was wrong with you. But, even though you don't intend to compare the two actions, I believe the comparison of those two pieces of "journalism" (both of which disgust me) is inappropriate. Even the criminal justice system treats the two criminals differently, as they should.

And that last bit of your initial response was extremely patronizing and inaccurate.

[cardpire]

OK, I'm sorry I asked what in the hell was wrong with you. But, even though you don't intend to compare the two actions, I believe the comparison of those two pieces of "journalism" (both of which disgust me) is inappropriate. Even the criminal justice system treats the two criminals differently, as they should.

And that last bit of your initial response was extremely patronizing and inaccurate.


i wasn't attempting to be patronizing, and i admitted to being inaccurate after you showed me your prior posts. didn't intend it to be taken that way.

as for the other thing, i am interpreting those 2 sentences as being in direct conflict with one another. i'm not assuming here, just asking for interpretation: you are saying Dateline is disgusting, yet it's justified and ok for them to lie and dupe because the crime is so heinous?

[msn]

as for the other thing, i am interpreting those 2 sentences as being in direct conflict with one another. i'm not assuming here, just asking for interpretation: you are saying Dateline is disgusting, yet it's justified and ok for them to lie and dupe because the crime is so heinous?
No, and I need to clarify that (if that's what you were asking earlier, it zoomed over my head; I thought you were again referring to the lie about Tejada's age).

Dateline's report, if I understand it correctly (as I've never seen it), disgusts me. And no, it's not justified (as I mentioned earlier). That doesn't mean I believe it's appropriate to compare this to ESPN's ambush interview, however. Maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't really taken a lot of time to think this through, but the CJ system doesn't treat people who commit fraud the same way they treat child predators. But, they don't (or at least shouldn't) do dishonest and underhanded things in dealing with the child predators, either. So, if Dateline wanted to be a little more brutal or uncaring in their portrayal of a beast like that I get it--but if they're telling lies, and setting up interviews under false pretenses, and embarrasing innocent family members and communities in order to do so, that's disgusting to me.

It's not Dateline's job to "ruin their lives". It's the CJ system's job to put them away. I want to see journalism, not vigilantism.

[yobod]

"a few different people": 1) the original poster (who i'm debating with). 2) you (seemingly clueless).

for the other comment, you seem to be delusional, because those are all the exact things that you did and which i replied to with the same tone after you did it.

also, continually begging everybody to flame me isn't exactly going to get anybody to take anything you say seriously. that's just a bizarre thing to do.

I reacted to the COMMENT that you made.....the personal comments were made by you. You didn't clarify in your original post that you were talking about the methods that were being used by ESPN and Dateline....not the actual acts themselves. I made an erroneous assumption, just like you have in this very same discussion. Just because you continuously call me delusional, and insult my intelligence does not make it reality. And there is no begging.....the comparison you made (or what was originally thought to be made not just by me, but by another poster as well) was definitely not in good taste. I reacted to it a little too harshly, I apologize for that.

And I didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to join into a discussion that you've already engaged with someone else. I guess I need to brush up on my internet skills a little.

[pgabriel]

It's a bit more complicated. Maybe a team signs a guy to a huge contract and finds out later that he's two or three years older than they thought. Maybe they wouldn't have offered the player such a long term deal, if they knew how old he really was.


I understand that, it may be a bigger deal than i'm making it out to be, but they handled this as if they busted him smuggling heroin. that's really my point, not that its not a story, just they way they try to "expose" people.