[Official] Cubs@ Astros

[Castor27]

Remember, no PBP in these threads and keep the chatter on topic (if it is about something other than this series, talk about it in another thread).

5-19 Ted Lilly, LHP (4-4, 5.33) vs. Brian Moehler, RHP (1-0, 4.58) 6:05 on FSN

5-20 Ryan Dempster, RHP (5-1, 2.35) vs. Chris Sampson, RHP (2-3, 6.46) 7:05 on FSN

5-21 Sean Gallagher, RHP (1-0, 4.40) vs. Shawn Chacon, RHP (0-0, 4.14) 7:05 on FSN

[Miguel]

Puma goes nuts on the Cubbies. 5 HRs in the series, bats .900, hits for a double cycle in the final game.

[msn]

hits for a double cycle
LOL. 8-for-8. I'd love to see it. Man, if Puma gets 8 ABs, then that's a minimum of sixty-eight plate appearances for the Astros in the game. Pull out twenty-seven outs and a maximum of twenty-seven LOB (heaven forbid), and you still have fourteen runs scored. If they only strand 20 guys, you have 21 runs scored.

Yeah, I'd like to see that. Although, the season is starting to get a little softball-ish. Hope our pitching somehow improves.

[weslinder]

The Astros should sweep the Cubbies. That's not a prediction, mind you, just a statement of opinion. Cubs' fans enjoy losing. The century of futility makes their fans happy. Now that Astros' fans have enjoyed moderate success, they tend to like that experience. In the interest of general welfare, the Astros should sweep the Cubs.

[RocketManJosh]

Damn I hate the Cubs ... Sure hope the pitching holds up, but at least we know we are still in it if it falters. I'll say 2 out of 3!

[leroy420]

No Zambrano = sweep

I can't stand the cubs even more now that they signed jim edmonds.

[MadMax]

I can't stand the cubs even more now that they signed jim edmonds.

right????!!!! like i needed another reason.

[BigTex]

WLW
hopefully dempster doesnt continue to dominate

[cmpatel]

tonight the game is on espn!!! hopefully the nation will see that we are indeed a good team and puma is a beast!!!!!!!

[rrj_gamz]

WLW...We need to win this series in a bad way...Have to keep up the pace...

[AzCkR]

I can't remember getting this excited about a series so early season. So far so good for Moehler.

[AzCkR]

Not bad Moehler. Maybe he isn't that bad.

[AzCkR]

Berkman doing it on defense too. Amazing.

[stobbartjohn]

This game is even on TV in the UK. Pretty cool, think it's only the 3rd time Stros have been on over here so far this season

[liamrock]

cubbies 3-0

Astros are clueless vs. Lilly.

[cardpire]

cubbies 3-0

Astros are clueless vs. Lilly.


can't expect to win games when you trot brian moehler out there. i still dont understand why cassel isnt getting these starts.

[stobbartjohn]

Moehler has pitched fairly well in his starts imo

[arif1127]

great catch.

[Major]

can't expect to win games when you trot brian moehler out there. i still dont understand why cassel isnt getting these starts.

Cassel has had two starts this year. We won both and he had an ERA of 5.59 in 9.2 innings.

Moehler has had two starts this year. We won both and he had an ERA of 2.70 in 10 innings.

For the season, Moehler had an ERA of 4.58; last year, he had an ERA of 4.07. That's right around and slightly better than league average. Given the above average offense, I don't see why you "can't expect to win games" when you trot a league average pitcher out there. And I can fully understand why Cassel isn't getting those starts.

[CHAD444]

I hate :mad: edmunds!

[raw10628]

I really wish Edmonds would just go away. :mad:

[WhoMikeJames]

**** YOU JIM EDMONDS YOU PIECE OF ****! GO RETIRE!

He always kills us in some way.

[BrieflySpeaking]

faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkkkk :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[RocketManJosh]

i hate jim edmonds

i was just listening on the radio today how the padres just had to bite the bullet and cut jim edmonds because his defense was so poor that they just couldn't have him in the big outfield here at petco. then he goes and does that to us ... again

[BrooksBall]

No Zambrano = sweep

I can't stand the cubs even more now that they signed jim edmonds.

Speak of the DEVIL!

[Gene the PIG]

Die Edmonds Die!

[Miguel]

**** JIM EDMONDS! **** HIM UP HIS STUPID ASS!

[Miguel]

i hate jim edmonds

i was just listening on the radio today how the padres just had to bite the bullet and cut jim edmonds because his defense was so poor that they just couldn't have him in the big outfield here at petco. then he goes and does that to us ... again


If you watch him, he pretty much times it so all his catches look spectacular in some way. He'll pretty much WALK if he has to for the first half of the path to the ball, so he can make an over the shoulder catch, or a diving catch. It probably caught up with him at Petco.

[codell]

Am I the only one that is a bit disappointed that Moehler didn't put a Cub on his ass after what happened to Lee?

[BrooksBall]

My basis for a good outing by Moehler was getting through 5 innings giving up 3 or less runs.

He did that even if it wasn't pretty.

If he pitches the 6th and gets through it cleanly, he did a very good job for him.

If it wasn't for Edmonds this is at most a 1 run game.

[cardpire]

Cassel has had two starts this year. We won both and he had an ERA of 5.59 in 9.2 innings.

Moehler has had two starts this year. We won both and he had an ERA of 2.70 in 10 innings.

For the season, Moehler had an ERA of 4.58; last year, he had an ERA of 4.07. That's right around and slightly better than league average. Given the above average offense, I don't see why you "can't expect to win games" when you trot a league average pitcher out there. And I can fully understand why Cassel isn't getting those starts.


great points. wish we had 5 moehler's in our rotation. we could expect to win most of those games. :rolleyes:

in fairness to cassell since you're bringing up last years stats, he gave up 8 ER's in 4 starts in 2007.

when cassell got his 2 starts earlier this year, i guess you "fully didn't understand" why on earth he was getting them over moehler.

they gave cassell 2 starts, he pitched decently in both of them, and then they went with moehler instead of him. that's what i dont understand.

[Major]

great points. wish we had 5 moehler's in our rotation. we could expect to win most of those games. :rolleyes:

in fairness to cassell since you're bringing up last years stats, he gave up 8 ER's in 4 starts in 2007.

when cassell got his 2 starts earlier this year, i guess you "fully didn't understand" why on earth he was getting them over moehler.

Actually, I fully understood that too. They are both fairly average pitchers, so one's going to start and one's not.


they gave cassell 2 starts, he pitched decently in both of them, and then they went with moehler instead of him. that's what i dont understand.

It's fairly simple. Last time, they had space on the roster for Cassel because people were on the DL. Now, they'd have to send someone else down that they don't want to. Why do that when you have a similarly mediocre option already on your roster?

[BrooksBall]

Can we tag Lilly this inning?

[Miguel]

TED LILLY WITH NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE








:(

[stobbartjohn]

Byrdak has been a revelation this season!

[BrooksBall]

Lieber looks like he's really been working on his conditioning.

[BrooksBall]

Byrdak has been a revelation this season!

He's done well despite the 8/4 BB/K ratio.

Let's see where he is at in a month or two.

[AzCkR]

Did Nieve's fastball always top out at 91-92? I thought he could pitch faster than that a couple years ago. Is this a result of his injuries?

[BrooksBall]

If I'm a pitcher facing Wigginton right now, I throw nothing in the strike zone.

Wigginton will almost surely swing at 3 bad pitches per AB if you give him the opportunity.

[BrooksBall]

Borkowski...

[cmpatel]

Borkowski...

why bring him in??? he is going to give up the run for sure

[Miguel]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/thumb/f/f8/Swedishchef2.JPG/300px-Swedishchef2.JPG
BORK BORK BORK

Run scores...out on the rundown.

[cmpatel]

man bork!!

[BrooksBall]

Borkowski...

...actually wasn't terrible but does allow a run to score.

[BrooksBall]

Marmol is a good, confident pitcher.

[T Rex]

Don't think we'll see many times this year where we have 2nd & 3rd and nobody out with our big guns up and...............nothing. Backbreaker for the Stros.

[rodrick_98]

great D ty :rolleyes:

[rodrick_98]

even worse.


great pitch borkowski :rolleyes:

[cmpatel]

bork shud be sent down NOW!!!

[BrooksBall]

Don't think we'll see many times this year where we have 2nd & 3rd and nobody out with our big guns up and...............nothing. Backbreaker for the Stros.

We faced some good pitching today.

The Cubs have a load of good hitters and enough quality pitchers.

They clearly look like the most talented team in the NL this season.

[Gene the PIG]

Now you have to pitch inside. You have to. Let's make this personal right now.

17 more games against these guys the rest of the year. Nows not the time to be passive when it's a race.

[BrooksBall]

Just another day at the office for Bumkowski.

[codell]

Now you have to pitch inside. You have to. Let's make this personal right now.

17 more games against these guys the rest of the year. Nows not the time to be passive when it's a race.

I agree. If I'm Lee, I would be pissed if a Cub doesn't get their ass put in the dirt before the game is over.

[BrooksBall]

I wonder if McLane would be willing to pay the Cubs to take Borkowski back to Chicago with them.

[Refman]

I wonder if McLane would be willing to pay the Cubs to take Borkowski back to Chicago with them.
I think we could take up a collection for the airfare.

[cardpire]

i'm going to start up a collection to buy out ausmus' contract.

[BrooksBall]

Ty Wigginton is good at...

1. Swinging very, very, very hard, regardless of where the baseball is.
2. Completely losing his balance every single time he takes a swing.
3. Striking out a lot.
4. Fooling people into thinking he is a serviceable 3rd basemen.
5. Eating, apparently.
6. Nothing that makes me believe he is any better than Morgan Ensberg (especially when you consider OBP and defense) or that he should be our 3rd basemen for the next few seasons.
7. Making things easy on opposing pitchers and improving their pitching stats.

Did I miss anything?

[BrooksBall]

i'm going to start up a collection to buy out ausmus' contract.

I'll throw in the first $25.

[russian88]

The cubs finally look like a good team. Hopefully the curse continues..

[rrj_gamz]

National TV and got beat down...

Well, two more games...Go Stros!!!

[Surfguy]

The Astros look like a team that are going to get swept by the Cubs.

I hope they don't...but they have that deer in the headlights look about them.

[Ottomaton]

Everybody.

Repeat with me.

This is baseball. Sometimes you loose. Sometimes you win. During the course of a season, every team has moments where they appear to be totally dominated by the opposition and clearly an inferior team. Conversely, almost every team has several games where they look like the greatest team since the '27 Yankees. That is just the way it is in baseball.

This was one game. The sky is not falling. By the same token, if they turn it around and win today, we shouldn't declare them the best team in all of baseball.

Some of the manic-depressive emotional whipsaw here is more absurd than in the GARM where people demand T-Mac be traded after a loss and turn around and declare him MVP after a single win.

162 Games. Get a little perspective. You will be much happier.

I appreciate that some of it is just empty venting, but really. The Chicken Little act from game-to-game gets a little old. This is the same team it was durring the first couple of weeks when they looked horrible and it is the same team that everybody was fawning over the day before yesterday.

[Surfguy]

You are out of line with those comments, Ottamaton. Nobody has really said anything in this thread that would warrant your comments. So, quit trying to be mister cool. People are giving the Cubs some credit for being a good team. That is all I see in this thread. I don't see anybody venting about the Astros being up/down like you are saying...other than the typical venting that comes with game action and picking on certain players.

If you want to wait on all 162 games to be played before you air an opinion on the gameplay or how good...or not so good...the Astros or certain players are, then maybe you should come back at the end of the season cause it doesn't read like you belong in a game thread. The rest of us want to say whatever we want to say in the game threads...without reservation or to appease the likes of you...just because it's a long season and there are ups and downs. I submit that while you say it "gets old"...you are not in the right place. Maybe you need your own blog or something? I dunno.

[Ottomaton]

You are out of line with those comments, Ottamaton. Nobody has really said anything in this thread that would warrant your comments.

Actually, there is a better part of a page of people bitching about Borkowski, Wiggington, and Ausmus. You don't even need play by play. You can tell who is winning by how much bitching is going on. Not sure what thread you are reading.

[Surfguy]

Actually, there is a better part of a page of people bitching about Borkowski, Wiggington, and Ausmus. You don't even need play by play. You can tell who is winning by how much bitching is going on. Not sure what thread you are reading.

So, we can't bitch about players who are playing poorly, and have a history (short-term or long-term) of playing poorly, in a game thread? Get serious. Your post was referring to "team" throughout. Now, you are talking about certain players who are getting vented about. Based on what you are saying, I'm not really sure what we should be talking about (something that fits what you want to read I suppose). What do you expect? Objectivity? Lack of bias? When players play poorly, then they get ragged on. When they play well, then they are paid kudos. That is the nature of this BBS. It cannot be changed. But, everyone once in a while, we have to get a lecture from someone that dictates to the masses that this is how you should approach it and is going to be the one post to bring about change as far as how people go about posting and what we should be talking about... . No offense...but that is absurd. You will just have to continue to put up with it...or leave I guess.

[Ottomaton]

You will just have to continue to put up with it...or leave I guess.

You complain that I have no right to talk about what you think, all the while complaining about what I think. The inherent contradiction is amusingly absurd.

You will have to continue to put up with my thoughts on what you say... or leave I guess.

I guess if I think that you are all overly emotional in your reactions to the ups and downs of the game, I shoudn't be supprised that you are getting so worked up emotionaly about a post you don't like.

[Surfguy]

You complain that I have no right to talk about what you think, all the while complaining about what I think. The inherent contradiction is amusingly absurd.

You will have to continue to put up with my thoughts on what you say... or leave I guess.

I'd prefer lecture-oriented posts in another thread in the future and not in the series threads...but you do what you have to do. I hope it doesn't turn into a series of lectures in series threads, however. lol

[Surfguy]

You complain that I have no right to talk about what you think, all the while complaining about what I think. The inherent contradiction is amusingly absurd.


Actually, you missed that point. I never said you have no right to talk about what you think. I just find it absurd that you are talking about it in a game series threads...which is the place we come to talk about how players are performing, how the games are going, etc. . This is a day-to-day game action thread. Of course there are going to be ups and downs with the comments. And, of course there is going to be venting.


I guess if I think that you are all overly emotional in your reactions to the ups and downs of the game, I shoudn't be supprised that you are getting so worked up emotionaly about a post you don't like.

Actually, not emotional at all. I just find it odd that you come into this thread to berate us for venting when I thought this is what these threads are for. We are either complimenting the good play...or deriding the bad play. Since when has this thread been out level-headed thinking for the long haul over the course of a season?

[Ottomaton]

Actually, you missed that point. I never said you have no right to talk about what you think. I just find it absurd that you are talking about it in a game series threads...which is the place we come to talk about how players are performing, how the games are going, etc?

Just so we are clear, are you a big fan of the GARM 'trade McGrady' threads after every loss?

Wiggington sucks as much going 0-4 when we win as he does going 0-4 when we loose. I think it is reasonable to ask people to be circumspect, just as it is to ask people to close their mouth when they eat, or to not fart in public, or any of the other uncouth things that people all over the place do all the time. More often than not, the request will fall on deaf ears, but that doesn't mean that we should all just give up and fart wherever and whenever we get the urge.

If you think Wiggington has had a couple of bad at bats, that's fine. Talk about bad at bats. Don't demand that Wiggington be taken out and shot or else. If you think Wiggington should be released, the opinion should exist independent of whether the team wins or looses. It should be based on more than how you feel about the most recent at bat. I would submit that most GM's will agree with this. I have no proof, and we can discuss that if we want, but for now I will assume that you agree.

Given that, I don't think it is unworthy to ask people to aspire to 'best practices' for evaluating players using the example shown by GM's and scouts and managers. If they can do it, so can you. Reach for the stars.

[lalala902102001]

No matter what the Cubs will always be the Cubs like they have been for the last century or so.

Go Stros. Let's take the next two.

[BrooksBall]

Just so we are clear, are you a big fan of the GARM 'trade McGrady' threads after every loss?

Wiggington sucks as much going 0-4 when we win as he does going 0-4 when we loose. I think it is reasonable to ask people to be circumspect, just as it is to ask people to close their mouth when they eat, or to not fart in public, or any of the other uncouth things that people all over the place do all the time. More often than not, the request will fall on deaf ears, but that doesn't mean that we should all just give up and fart wherever and whenever we get the urge.

If you think Wiggington has had a couple of bad at bats, that's fine. Talk about bad at bats. Don't demand that Wiggington be taken out and shot or else. If you think Wiggington should be released, the opinion should exist independent of whether the team wins or looses. It should be based on more than how you feel about the most recent at bat. I would submit that most GM's will agree with this. I have no proof, and we can discuss that if we want, but for now I will assume that you agree.

Given that, I don't think it is unworthy to ask people to aspire to 'best practices' for evaluating players using the example shown by GM's and scouts and managers. If they can do it, so can you. Reach for the stars.

I agree, nobody should judge a player based on his most recent AB.

I went overboard.

I am sure that Wigginton is going to magically transform into a rangy 3rd basemen with even average defensive skills over the course of his tenure with the Astros. At the plate, he will learn not to hack away at pitches two feet outside of the strike zone or in the dirt.

Sheesh! He's only approaching 31 years old, people, give him time!

Thanks, Otto. Thanks for the lesson.

You truly helped me realize how shortsighted my assessment was of our $4.35 million 3rd basemen. I say we double his salary next season and lock him up for the next 7 years.

[MadMax]

Everybody.

Repeat with me.

This is baseball. Sometimes you loose. Sometimes you win. During the course of a season, every team has moments where they appear to be totally dominated by the opposition and clearly an inferior team. Conversely, almost every team has several games where they look like the greatest team since the '27 Yankees. That is just the way it is in baseball.

This was one game. The sky is not falling. By the same token, if they turn it around and win today, we shouldn't declare them the best team in all of baseball.

Some of the manic-depressive emotional whipsaw here is more absurd than in the GARM where people demand T-Mac be traded after a loss and turn around and declare him MVP after a single win.

162 Games. Get a little perspective. You will be much happier.

I appreciate that some of it is just empty venting, but really. The Chicken Little act from game-to-game gets a little old. This is the same team it was durring the first couple of weeks when they looked horrible and it is the same team that everybody was fawning over the day before yesterday.

I'm MadMax, and I endorse this message. I'm buying your next beer (or at least the next beer you drink in my presence).

[msn]

RE: Wigginton, he seriously needs to spend some time with the tape, unless what I hear is inaccurate. I hear (haven't seen) that he's swinging off-balance, not pivoting his lead foot at all, etc. These just aren't difficult things to correct. Concerning the swinging at bad pitches, I don't know enough about his career body of work to know whether that is a recent development or whether he's never had a good eye for the 'zone, but a quick look at his baseball-reference.com BB/SO stats suggests he historically is not so hot.

[msn]

I'm MadMax, and I endorse this message.
Seriously, you endorse misusing the word "loose" in place of "lose"?

[Surfguy]

I see more of where you are coming from based on your last post, Ottomaton. I think it is perfectly normal to come here and vent (good or bad)...and that is, in my mind, what these threads are for. And, yes, most of it is not based on logic and is based more on emotions being experienced at the time of the post based on observed performance of the players and/or team at that time, i.e. short-sighted. However, even venting can go overboard, e.g. the "Trade TMAC" threads (which I never gave any thought to nor ventured into). Most of us cannot be expected to assess things like a scout or GM because, quite frankly, we are fans who do not possess those skills. We tend to call it like we see it at the time...fair or unfair. I do admit that some venting goes overboard at times and is more emotional diatribe than anything else. It fits the mentality of "what have you done for me lately?" versus taking into account the bigger picture. Given that, I don't think these series threads are the best place to come for unbiased, objective opinions on player or team performance over long stretches of time. Those types of topics deserve their own threads. That's all I have left to say on this matter. You can come in here and try to get everyone level-headed to think before they post...but that is not reality for these types of threads IMO. More often that not...someone is spilling over into this thread from watching the game and posting on an emotional low or high...which is why I tend to get a chuckle out of the posts in these threads because, more often than not, more than one poster is making an ass out of himself (maybe myself included). It could be worse, e.g. the GARM after a Rockets loss.

[stobbartjohn]

I don't think that was intentional. Sampson just sucks lol

[stobbartjohn]

Anyone else watching on mlb.tv? I can't see the scoreboard on it ffs

[cardpire]

you can't expect to win games when you're trotting chris sampson out there.

[stobbartjohn]

HUNTER GRAND SLAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WhoMikeJames]

GRAND SLAM BY HUNTER! :eek:

[lalala902102001]

Pence!!!

[Surfguy]

PENCE GRAND SLAM BREAKFAST!!!

[cardpire]

big hit. we gotta win this.

[GlassHalfFull]

Pence is great and Tejada is fun to watch also. I love their energy and emotion.

[BrooksBall]

How many years would you guys like to see Tejada in an Astros uniform?

[Storm Surge]

How many years would you guys like to see Tejada in an Astros uniform?
minus 2

[GlassHalfFull]

How many years would you guys like to see Tejada in an Astros uniform?

As long as he is productive. I hope he will be around for a long time.

[stobbartjohn]

Wow, how terrible was that call on the first pitch to Lance. Wasn't even close

[BrooksBall]

Wow, how terrible was that call on the first pitch to Lance. Wasn't even close

Look carefully, the home plate ump has a Cubs jersey on underneath his uniform.

That was a very bad call.

[leroy420]

you can't expect to win games when you're trotting chris sampson out there.

Yeah...6 2/3, 2 er, 4 K, 1 bb is just terrible.

:rolleyes:

[cardpire]

Yeah...6 2/3, 2 er, 4 K, 1 bb is just terrible.

:rolleyes:


nice job posting after he pitched, but how he pitched tonight is besides the point anyway. he did a good job tonight though. he had a 7+era heading into the night. are you telling me you expect to win his starts?

let's close this out valverde.

[leroy420]

nice job posting after he pitched, but how he pitched tonight is besides the point anyway. he did a good job tonight though. he had a 7+era heading into the night. are you telling me you expect to win his starts?

let's close this out valverde.

He started the night with a below 1 era against the cubs in his starts against them. So, yeah, I expected a win tonight.

Why not wait until his start is over before saying things like "you can't expect to win with..."? He pitched very well tonight.

[Major]

nice job posting after he pitched, but how he pitched tonight is besides the point anyway. he did a good job tonight though. he had a 7+era heading into the night. are you telling me you expect to win his starts?


Actually, he had an ERA of 6.46 heading into tonight. And the Astros had won 5 of the 8 times he had started (62.5%), including the last 3. Their overall winning percentage is 54.3%.

[cardpire]

He started the night with a below 1 era against the cubs in his starts against them. So, yeah, I expected a win tonight.

Why not wait until his start is over before saying things like "you can't expect to win with..."? He pitched very well tonight.


because i don't expect to win games that chris sampson starts, especially against excellent pitchers like dempster. he pitched well tonight and it was a pleasant surprise for me.

[cardpire]

Actually, he had an ERA of 6.46 heading into tonight. And the Astros had won 5 of the 8 times he had started (62.5%), including the last 3. Their overall winning percentage is 54.3%.


you expect us to win games that chris sampson and brian moehler start. which pitchers on our starting staff do you not expect us to win the games that they start? seems like anything less than 162-0 would leave you frustrated.

nice job tonight stros. let's finish them off tomorrow.

[GlassHalfFull]

I will be at the game tomorrow, hopefully it will be a good one.

Looking at the stats, it is amazing we are doing as well as we are with 2 starters batting under 200.

How long before they send Towles down and is there another catcher to replace him?

Also, can we move Bourn out of the leadoff spot? I like his defense and speed, maybe he could bunt for hits some out of the leadoff spot.

[Major]

you expect us to win games that chris sampson and brian moehler start. which pitchers on our starting staff do you not expect us to win the games that they start? seems like anything less than 162-0 would leave you frustrated.

I don't expect NOT to win games that those guys start - big difference. I recognize that there is a huge element of luck to the games, and you win plenty of games with bad pitchers and lose plenty of games with great pitchers. Losing a game doesn't frustrate me at all because I recognize that even the really good teams tend to lose about 40% of their games.

[Mr. Clutch]

Great win!! We're going to the World Series, I can feel it! :cool:

[cardpire]

I don't expect NOT to win games that those guys start - big difference.


"Don't expect not to win" has exactly the same meaning as "expect to win". it's called a double negative.

[ryan17wagner]

I'm so glad we won. I F-ing hate a Cub fan. They're so annying at the ballpark. They got real quiet quick when Pence launched that slam.

[DVauthrin]

Also, can we move Bourn out of the leadoff spot? I like his defense and speed, maybe he could bunt for hits some out of the leadoff spot.

No you can't move him out of the spot. He has to bat either 1st or 2nd for this lineup to be at its most efficient. Why? Because the only candidate to move higher in the order is Pence and you are wasting him at the top of the order. He is a valuable run producer, and batting him leadoff wastes his rbi potential. Before anyone says bat him 2nd, he doesn't take enough pitches or situationally hit well enough for that job. Matsui is an ideal number 2 hitter for what it's worth.

Soriano shouldn't be batting leadoff for the cubs either for a similar reason.

[Zac D]

"Don't expect not to win" has exactly the same meaning as "expect to win".

false

[cardpire]

false


fine. i don't expect not to not win. it's settled.

[Mr. Clutch]

false

It isn't not true.

[Red Chocolate]

Have to like the Astros' position right now, especially given that the Cubs and Cardinals have each played 27 home games compared to the 'Stros' 19. Hope for a big pitching upgrade and we'll be contending hopefully until fall.

Also, why is Pence not batting 1st? When do we give up on Bourn?

[Raven Lunatic]

Have to like the Astros' position right now, especially given that the Cubs and Cardinals have each played 27 home games compared to the 'Stros' 19. Hope for a big pitching upgrade and we'll be contending hopefully until fall.

Also, why is Pence not batting 1st? When do we give up on Bourn?

I don't think Pence is suited to the leadoff spot. Perhaps they are afraid that moving him back there might end this hot streak he is on right now. I tend to agree with that thinking.

Bourn may not be great, but he is better than he looks right now. I just hope to god that he breaks out of his slump before some of our current hot hitters cool off.

[rrj_gamz]

Hunter F'n Pence...nice...I was able to see the game last night on FSN HD and man, Bourn looks lost at the plate...when is he moving to the 8th spot...seriously...

[Major]

"Don't expect not to win" has exactly the same meaning as "expect to win". it's called a double negative.

No - that's only true if there are only two choices: expecting to win or expecting to lose. The reality is that there is an alternative - you win some and you lose some, and you don't have expectations either way.

[cardpire]

No - that's only true if there are only two choices: expecting to win or expecting to lose. The reality is that there is an alternative - you win some and you lose some, and you don't have expectations either way.

you're right i guess. this argument is getting absurd though.

i don't expect to win brian moehler's starts, and it just frustrates me that he is the guy making our start every 5th day, whether temporary or permanent.

the sampson comment was made more out of aggravation after seeing him give up the aramis bomb, and not being able to cope with the thought of the cubbies taking the first 2 off of us at home. i'm usually more optimistic than that.

that's all.

[stobbartjohn]

Once again, we spot the opposition an early lead.

[stobbartjohn]

Get to **** Jim Edmonds

[BrooksBall]

You would figure Bourn and Matsui getting on base with no outs means at least a couple of runs.

[BrooksBall]

Berkman's pressing.

Lee is crushing.

[BrooksBall]

Carlos Lee doing his best Jim Edmonds impersonation.

[Uprising]

Nice jack by Lee.

[stobbartjohn]

Bourn is starting to get in a groove!

[BrooksBall]

Bourn is starting to get in a groove!

That would be HUGE if it is true.

[LFE171]

Bourn is starting to get in a groove!

yeah cooper said the other day on an interview that he's been getting the hang of things since against the rangers. if he starts hitting, and possibly wigginton...ohhhhhh sheeet!

[Zac D]

I don't want to jinx anything, but Shawn Chacon is currently in line for a decision.

[stobbartjohn]

Towles is 3 for 38 this month! That's baaad

And that's including his 1-2 tonight!

[Cannonball]

That would be HUGE if it is true.
Bourn is 9 for his last 23 (.391) in his last 6 games including tonight.

[leroy420]

1 extreme to the other with Lance right now. Can't make contact all of a sudden.

[Gene the PIG]

Berkman slumping was bound to happen, but I never DREAMED it would be THIS bad. Yikees. :confused:

After this game, I say give him a day off, & play Erstad.

[BrooksBall]

Please get Chacon this win.

[stobbartjohn]

Very nice outing by Chacon.

As for Lance, look on the bright side guys!

He has one hit in this series and we're about to win it against the top team in our division. We're showing we can beat a really good team without Lance hitting. Got to be a good thing surely?

[stobbartjohn]

Btw, if Valverde gets the save tonight he takes sole lead of the NL in saves on 14

[stobbartjohn]

WOW! LANCE GOT HOPS!

[dockerland]

What a take by Berkman.

[Harrisment]

We need some more runs, I don't feel safe with only a 2 run lead.

[Cannonball]

We need some more runs, I don't feel safe with only a 2 run lead.

Valverde hasn't allowed a run in his last 16 games and batters are hitting only .128 against him this month.

(I hope I didn't jinx anything)

[Groogrux]

Made Lee look silly.

[Harrisment]

Valverde hasn't allowed a run in his last 16 games and batters are hitting only .128 against him this month.

(I hope I didn't jinx anything)

Crap.

[Harrisment]

Crap.

Whew, I thought the jinx was on. :)


Great win. This team continues to impress.

[Cannonball]

1.5 games back of the Cubs, tied with the Cards who are currently losing 2-0 in the 3rd to the Padres.

[BMoney]

That's a quality win and series after losing a little momentum against Texas. Screw the Cubs and their fans, by the way.

[msn]

21-9 in their last 30 (they've only played 46 or 47 games). That's a .700 winning percentage in their last 30 games.

[RocketManJosh]

Big series win right there! ... Way to go Stros!!!!

[GlassHalfFull]

Just got home from the game. It was great to see Chacon get a win. Finally!!!!!

[T Rex]

Great series win......you had the sense that the Cubs may be getting in our heads after the semi-dramatic wins in Chicago earlier this year and the 1st game drubbing. Nice answers in coming from behind in both win. I think it's safe to say that this team doesn't flinch when it gets down a few runs early.

Only natural that Lance slows down a little, but Carlos has really been stepping it up lately to offset that.

I know Valverde is now the save leader and has been pitching sick as of lately, but have you seen the stats for our last two closers? Do we know how to breed closers or what?

Lidge 1-0 0.45 ERA, 0.95 WHIP, 11 SV
Wagner 0-0 0.00 ERA, 0.71 WHIP, 9 SV

And just to bring back memories of the Dotel, Lidge, Wagner combo, here's O's current numbers with the White Sox: Dotel 2-2 4.00 ERA, 1.56 WHIP, 0 SV (he's their 6th/7th inning guy)

Not to sound too crazy, but could've our combo of Dotel, Lidge, Wagner been the best ever for a 7th, 8th, 9th inning stretch?

Great series win against a very good Cubs team. I have a feeling were going to have some epic games against them this year.

[T Rex]

Nice job by the Stros fans too.......they took over MMP for the last 2 games.

[Hmm]

I know Valverde is now the save leader and has been pitching sick as of lately, but have you seen the stats for our last two closers? Do we know how to breed closers or what?

Lidge 1-0 0.45 ERA, 0.95 WHIP, 11 SV
Wagner 0-0 0.00 ERA, 0.71 WHIP, 9 SV

And just to bring back memories of the Dotel, Lidge, Wagner combo, here's O's current numbers with the White Sox: Dotel 2-2 4.00 ERA, 1.56 WHIP, 0 SV (he's their 6th/7th inning guy)

Not to sound too crazy, but could've our combo of Dotel, Lidge, Wagner been the best ever for a 7th, 8th, 9th inning stretch?



those were great years... Dotel: 94-96mph heater with movement Lidge: 97-98mph with movement Wags: 98-100mph heater with movement

and now..


Valverde: 88-93mph flat fastball.. supposedly he gets it at 94 now.. but I must be catching him on TV at the wrong times..

[H-townhero]

I've seen Valverde throw consistently 96+ in recent games, at the beginning it was 92-94. He's really picked up his velocity. The highest I've seen on the gun is 99 mph. Dunno what you're watching.

[BrooksBall]

Pujols still a dirtbag:

"Young's nose was broken when Albert Pujols lined a shot off his face in the third inning that sent blood streaming down the front of his jersey. Bard sprained his left ankle on a play at the plate when Pujols slid into his leg."

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/recap/MLB_20080521_STL@SD

You can't blame him for the line drive but the slide was dirty. I don't even need to see it to know it.

This is a dead topic but when he slid into Towles early in the season, Towles was about 2 feet off the plate and Pujols took aim.

Why? Because Pujols is scum.

[Hmm]

I've seen Valverde throw consistently 96+ in recent games, at the beginning it was 92-94. He's really picked up his velocity. The highest I've seen on the gun is 99 mph. Dunno what you're watching.

i swear .. i just haven't seen it... like i said perhaps.. im just catching him on screen at the wrong time.. either there's the gun reading at most 93mph.. or there's no gun.. and left to my judgement alone.. still looks unimpressive.. doesn't seem to have the speed.. the pop in the glove... or the rising movement of the heaters I've been spoiled with from those previous Astros closers.. I do know last time I saw him was last week.. just once.. no pitch speed display.. and that's the way it looked.. as I described.. and he got outs via the infield.. I sincerely don't remember a strikeout...

but all right. I'll try to pay him more consistent attention... to see if you are indeed right.. i certaintly hope so.. as I was growing increasingly tired of his unimpressive pitching and speed...

[NIKEstrad]

but all right. I'll try to pay him more consistent attention... to see if you are indeed right.. i certaintly hope so.. as I was growing increasingly tired of his unimpressive pitching and speed...

What's unimpressive about 17 and 2/3 straight scoreless innings and 17 straight scoreless outings?

For the month of May, the guy has pitch 12 innings allowing 0 runs, 5 hits, 2 walks, and 13 strikeouts. 9 saves and 1 win.

If you take the last month, it makes 16.2 innings, 0 runs, 7 hits, 4 walks, and 22 strikeouts, 12 saves, and 2 wins. Any guy who has twice as many strikeouts as baserunners is alright by me.

[arif1127]

as I was growing increasingly tired of his unimpressive pitching and speed...


Please, find someone pitching better than Jose over the last 3 weeks and let us know who it is.
If pitch speed is what does it for you, maybe you should just go find Kyle Farnsworth and watch him pitch, he'll keep you happy, he may not be effective, but he throws hard.....

[Raven Lunatic]

Also, I don't remember Wagner's fastball ever having "movement" per se. He just threw the ball so ****ing hard, and usually had pretty good placement. But that pitch didn't have TIME to move.

[rrj_gamz]

How bout' them Stros!!! Great to win a series against a quality team...

Don't look now, but V has 14 saves...nice...

[Uprising]

Pujols still a dirtbag:

"Young's nose was broken when Albert Pujols lined a shot off his face in the third inning that sent blood streaming down the front of his jersey. Bard sprained his left ankle on a play at the plate when Pujols slid into his leg."

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/recap/MLB_20080521_STL@SD

You can't blame him for the line drive but the slide was dirty. I don't even need to see it to know it.

This is a dead topic but when he slid into Towles early in the season, Towles was about 2 feet off the plate and Pujols took aim.

Why? Because Pujols is scum.


As much as I would love to poop on pooholes, this video shows him praying with Gonzales of the Padres after the line drive. (praying that Young was alright)
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805222746276

[BrooksBall]

As much as I would love to poop on pooholes, this video shows him praying with Gonzales of the Padres after the line drive. (praying that Young was alright)
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805222746276

Like I said, the line drive was one thing. The slide was another.

If you can find a clip of Pooholes slide into Towles early in the season, watch it again. It was undoubtedly a filthy play and I don't blame Backe one bit for the way he reacted the next day.

I understand the concept of taking out a catcher blocking the plate, but going off line at a catcher's ankles with your spikes is something different.

I'm not literally saying Pujols is the devil. I'm sure he has some good in him. The bottom line is that after he finished praying, he went and took out the catcher's ankles a few minutes later.

Pooholes remains scum.

[MadMax]

I'm not literally saying Pujols is the devil.

I am literally saying that. His prayers, while indecipherable to many, were actually directed to Mephistopheles.

[Hmm]

Also, I don't remember Wagner's fastball ever having "movement" per se. He just threw the ball so ****ing hard, and usually had pretty good placement. But that pitch didn't have TIME to move.

as I understood it.. a four seam fastball with movement just means a fastball that creates the illusion of lift.. when all it's really doing is just going straight from pitcher to catcher.. while Valverdes fastball seems to drop slightly downward as it goes through the strikezone.. in otherworse "flat"..

[Hmm]

Please, find someone pitching better than Jose over the last 3 weeks and let us know who it is.
If pitch speed is what does it for you, maybe you should just go find Kyle Farnsworth and watch him pitch, he'll keep you happy, he may not be effective, but he throws hard.....


well I did say that I was comparing him to what i've been so accustomed to seeing from an Astros closer for the past several years.. not exactly Farnsworth-esque..

[NIKEstrad]

as I understood it.. a four seam fastball with movement just means a fastball that creates the illusion of lift.. when all it's really doing is just going straight from pitcher to catcher.. while Valverdes fastball seems to drop slightly downward as it goes through the strikezone.. in otherworse "flat"..

You're probably watching his splitter that no one seems to be able to hit. He's been throwing it in the mid 80s.

This is getting silly. I'll leave you with Shawn Chacon's thoughts:
"I was fine," he said. "The way that the bullpen has been pitching, especially Brocail and Valverde, I was pretty much counting on it being over. And it was. Valverde allowed one baserunner and then just annihilates the next couple of guys..."

If you can't tell that Valverde has been straight up filthy over the past month, I don't know what to tell you.

[Hmm]

What's unimpressive about 17 and 2/3 straight scoreless innings and 17 straight scoreless outings?

For the month of May, the guy has pitch 12 innings allowing 0 runs, 5 hits, 2 walks, and 13 strikeouts. 9 saves and 1 win.

If you take the last month, it makes 16.2 innings, 0 runs, 7 hits, 4 walks, and 22 strikeouts, 12 saves, and 2 wins. Any guy who has twice as many strikeouts as baserunners is alright by me.


this all seems.. not at all relevant to any of my posts on Valverde's "pitches" and "speed"... :confused:


and in that very post you quoted.. I did mentionn I haven't seen him on a consistent basis recently.. just that when I have.. his pitches have looked just as unimpressive as they were in april.. the strikeouts i did see didn't show me a cause to expect them as the norm... as you would for say.. a Lidge, wags and Dotel.. and the saves I did see him get... even in May.. when I did see him.. were via flyball outs and/or the infield.. from the 1st to the last out.. and so I really don't have that much confidence that when he comes in in the 9th with a 1-2 run lead.. that it'll be saved.. not just yet.. despite his numbers in May.. Lidge also had some good months with the Astros in the worst end of his career here..

[Hmm]

You're probably watching his splitter that no one seems to be able to hit. He's been throwing it in the mid 80s.



i doubt it.. it would have to be the worst splitter in baseball.. the drop is not significant.. it's the drop of a flat fastball.. which can in no way be confused with any other pitch in baseball..

[NIKEstrad]

this all seems.. not at all relevant to any of my posts on Valverde's "pitches" and "speed"... :confused:


and in that very post you quoted.. I did mentionn I haven't seen him on a consistent basis recently.. just that when I have.. his pitches have looked just as unimpressive as they were in april.. the strikeouts i did see didn't show me a cause to expect them as the norm... as you would for say.. a Lidge, wags and Dotel.. and the saves I did see him get... even in May.. when I did see him.. were via flyball outs and/or the infield.. from the 1st to the last out.. and so I really don't have that much confidence that when he comes in in the 9th with a 1-2 run lead.. that it'll be saved.. not just yet.. despite his numbers in May.. Lidge also had some good months with the Astros in the worst end of his career here..

K/9:
Valverde: 11.16
Lidge: 10.35
Wagner: 10.00

K/BB: (Brocail actually leads the league in this category at 7.67, go figure)
Wagner: 5.00
Valverde: 3.88 (in May, 6.50)
Lidge: 2.30

GB/FB:
Lidge: 1.38
Valverde: 1.12 (in May, 1.67)
Wagner: 0.91

More K/9 than both Lidge and Wagner, more K/BB than Lidge, and a better groundball ratio than Wagner on the season, and he's been even better in May.

What exactly do you want out of the guy?

[Hmm]

What exactly do you want out of the guy?


Lidge like dominance before 2005..?


Wags like reliability for most of his Astros career..? Post seasons aside.. when Wags came in with a 1-2 run lead in the 9th.. you expected a save aautomatically.. the win was already wrapped up in your mind.. all he left you wondering about.. is whether he'd get 2 or 3 k's..


I did suspect 'being spoiled' as the reason for my instant dissatisfaction with Valverde in April.. as our new and praised closer.. which apparently.. is going to take more than a good month of May to undo..

[msn]

What exactly do you want out of the guy?
Sexy pitches.