[Astros Related] Magglio Ordonez

[countingcrow]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_7_62/ai_102520518/pg_2

This link confirms that Magglio Ordonez joins Johan Santana, Bobby Abreu, and Kenny Lofton among others that the Astros have either given up on or left unprotected in various drafts.

Until today, I had no idea that Ordonez had ever been property of the Astros.

[codell]

Ordonez was never property of the Stros.

[countingcrow]

Ordonez was never property of the Stros.

How so? The article clearly states that he was released by the Astros. It doesn't say that Ordonez opted to leave the academy. Even if he didn't sign a contract with the Astros, he was in their Venezuelan academy and it is obvious that the Stros would have had first shot at him. The chose to release him instead of offer him a contract.

[arkoe]

I didn't know that either. Granted, I'm not sure how the Venezuelan Academy works. I didn't know we had Melvin Mora at one time either.

Baseball Reference shows up having Melvin Mora at one time, but we granted him free agency. For Magglio Ordonez, the first transaction they have for him is his signing with the Sox.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/morame01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/ordonma01.shtml

[yobod]

This is meaningless. Baseball is one of those sports where you really have absolutely NO idea how someone's skills will translate over into the major league level. I guarantee you if you go through the list of players every major league team has owned, each team has its own fair share of players they have given up on a little too early.

[DoitDickau]

There is so much projection and guess work that goes into scouting 17 yrs olds (not to mention 17 yr old international players) that I'm not sure how blame you could ever give an organization for passing on a player. You can say the same thing about the draft. Every team in baseball passed over Albert Pujols multiple times. Every team passed over Roy Oswalt and David Wright. etc, etc. It doesn't even mean that they were wrong to do so. You just have to do your homework and make the best educated guess with prospects. Maybe Maggy wasn't a good prospect. I don't know.

While I don't think you can be too critical of the Astros passing on Ordonez, I think you can definitely question how the Astros handled their Venezuelan prospects. The Astros were one of the first teams to really establish themselves in Venezuela in 1989. This helped them get a stronghold with Venezuelan prospects in the 1990's. It was (or at least should have been) one of the great successes in the Astros organizational history.

For whatever reason (undervalued the prospects?) while the Astros Venezuela academy produced a large number of high end major level talent,the Astros largely have not been the recipient of that talent. The Astros signed and developed from Venezuela: Johan Santana, Bobby Abreu, Melvin Mora, Carlos Guillen, and Freddy Garcia among others. If you counting at home, that's 5 all-stars including the best pitcher of this generation. Combined they played 74 games for the Astros in the major leagues. Off the top of my head the only real value they've gotten at the major level from Venezuelan players is two good years from Richard Hidalgo.

It's not that every one of the individual transactions that got rid of these players were mistakes, but outside of half a season of Randy Johnson the Astros didn't even get a return in losing these players. It amazing the Astros produced so much talent from Venezuela, but benefited so little from it. I think it represents an enormous lost opportunity.

[ryan17wagner]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_7_62/ai_102520518/pg_2

This link confirms that Magglio Ordonez joins Johan Santana, Bobby Abreu, and Kenny Lofton among others that the Astros have either given up on or left unprotected in various drafts.

Until today, I had no idea that Ordonez had ever been property of the Astros.


What's your point? Every team in the MLB has given up or traded away someone. The Mets gave up on Nolan Ryan. Red Sox traded away Jeff Bagwell. Rangers traded Alfonso Soriano for Brad Wilkerson. Rangers also traded Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez for a set-up man who isn't playing this year. Life goes on, buddy. Eveyone does it.

[Shroopy2]

Whether it indicates the Astros as continuously botching it up or not, it leans toward being not good that a quality player slips away. You can kinda say it appears exactly how it looks - Astros being a farm club for everyone else.

Still its kinda whatever. Melvin Mora didnt become a good player til 10 years after he first signed. Thats like Chris Burke 3 years from now becoming a 20 HR 80 RBI guy. You can say the Stros gave up on Phil Nevin early too.

[Oski2005]

It's a tough game, trying to figure out which kids are the real deal. It does suck that out of Abreu, Ordonez, and Hidalgo; we went with Hidalgo, but that's life. Time to move on and just hope the Astros get better and keeping the talent that they are actually good at finding.

[DOMINATOR]

well at least the astros are finding these players.

[TMac640]

This is meaningless. Baseball is one of those sports where you really have absolutely NO idea how someone's skills will translate over into the major league level. I guarantee you if you go through the list of players every major league team has owned, each team has its own fair share of players they have given up on a little too early.


Exactly. Anyone that says otherwise is a fool with it.

[SuperS32]

I read an article that talked about how Freddy Garcia was one of the main reasons Felix Hernandez signed with the Mariners. That Randy Johnson trade proved costly when it came to continuing the Astros tradition in Venezuela (although I know many would do that trade over again even knowing Jphnson wouldn't re-sign).

But in general, the name of the game is stockpiling as much young talent as you can so that you don't have to pay a premium for veteran free agents to fill holes. The Astros (pre-Purpura) have been very good at that, and that's why they went to the playoffs 6 times in a 9-year span. They lost some guys -- Santana, Garcia, Guillen, Mora, Lugo -- and some guys got hurt, like Wilfredo Rodriguez, Carlos Hernandez, and Scott Elarton. But they still produced guys like Oswalt and Berkman along with role players like Lidge, Ensberg, Lane, and Burke.

It wasn't until all the free agent signings that took away draft picks from Hunsicker (combined with Purpura's love of "toolsy" high shool catchers that can't hit and Uncle Drayton's refusal to go a few pennies over slot money) that the Astros system began to decline. I'm pretty confident that the new regime will patch things up within a few years.

[Oski2005]

My brother told me about the Felix Hernandez story. He said the Astros offered him the most money, but the Mariner's scout spent time with the kid and his family and let him know he'd be comfortable in Seattle.

[leroy420]

How so? The article clearly states that he was released by the Astros. It doesn't say that Ordonez opted to leave the academy. Even if he didn't sign a contract with the Astros, he was in their Venezuelan academy and it is obvious that the Stros would have had first shot at him. The chose to release him instead of offer him a contract.

It also clearly states that he signed his first professional contract with the White Sox...

After seeing Ordonez throw and hit, Rendon made a couple of phone calls. Within a day, Ordonez had signed his first contract, for a $3,500 bonus plus $500 a month. He did a stint in the Dominican summer league, then reported for duty with the Sox.

It's been said ad nauseum. Every team has this list. The Astros might be more prevalent because they were the first in Venezuela and those players are now vets.

[MaxwellsTemper]

What's your point? Every team in the MLB has given up or traded away someone. The Mets gave up on Nolan Ryan. Red Sox traded away Jeff Bagwell. Rangers traded Alfonso Soriano for Brad Wilkerson. Rangers also traded Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez for a set-up man who isn't playing this year. Life goes on, buddy. Eveyone does it.
Well stated. Its not something worth mulling over.

[Refman]

It's a tough game, trying to figure out which kids are the real deal. It does suck that out of Abreu, Ordonez, and Hidalgo; we went with Hidalgo, but that's life. Time to move on and just hope the Astros get better and keeping the talent that they are actually good at finding.
Well said.

Does anybody else remember when the Astros failed to make a trade for Roger Clemens in 1999 because Daryle Ward and Scott Elarton were "untouchable?"

[MaxwellsTemper]

Well said.

Does anybody else remember when the Astros failed to make a trade for Roger Clemens in 1999 because Daryle Ward and Scott Elarton were "untouchable?"
Yeah, those two turned out to be let downs. I was never sold on Ward, but I thought Elarton would become something. I sure was wrong on that one.

[Refman]

Yeah, those two turned out to be let downs. I was never sold on Ward, but I thought Elarton would become something. I sure was wrong on that one.
A lot of people were wrong on both of them. Hunsicker was wrong on them. The point here is that young prospects should not be considered untouchable because whether or not they will pan out is a crapshoot at best.

[MadMax]

Well said.

Does anybody else remember when the Astros failed to make a trade for Roger Clemens in 1999 because Daryle Ward and Scott Elarton were "untouchable?"

I remember talking with you at length about the possibility of that trade on the steps outside of the Univ of Houston Law Center after class.

[DrewP]

Well said.

Does anybody else remember when the Astros failed to make a trade for Roger Clemens in 1999 because Daryle Ward and Scott Elarton were "untouchable?"

Elarton would have been great but his arm just broke down.

At one point I read the Yankees were ready to trade Alfonso Soriano for Daryl Ward. :-\

[shipwreck]

Elarton would have been great but his arm just broke down.

At one point I read the Yankees were ready to trade Alfonso Soriano for Daryl Ward. :-\

I heard the Astros are gonna draft Drew Patterson because he has such a big heaaaaaaad.

[Refman]

I remember talking with you at length about the possibility of that trade on the steps outside of the Univ of Houston Law Center after class.
If my memory serves me correctly, we both were thinking that the price was steep, but it's Roger Freakin' Clemens...or something like that. :)

[redgoose]

I completely agree scouting minor league talent is a crap shoot unless you have a #1 pick in the draft. They have pretty good success rates. Each year 1000's of players are drafted. I understood the Freddy Garcia move, i didn't know why Randy Johnson wouldn't have wanted to resign with a winning team for max dollars. :confused:

However, every time i hear Johan Santana's name i can't think of how we gave him up for nothing. At the same time, i had no idea who he was then. But that wasn't my job. I just wish one of our scouts or couches would have saw something in him and just put him in the bullpen so he could have stayed an Astro.