[Official] Padres @ Astros

[Castor27]

Remember, no PBP in these threads and keep the chatter on topic (if it is about something other than this series, talk about it in another thread).


4-21 Justin Germano, RHP (0-1, 1.35) vs. Roy Oswalt, RHP (1-3, 6.65) 7:05 on FSN

4-22 Jake Peavy, RHP (3-0, 1.20) vs. Brandon Backe, RHP (1-2, 4.26) 7:05 on FSN

[JaWindex]

Sweep.

Which way, who knows?

[kaleidosky]

because the stros are at home...i'll go with WL (otherwise LL)

[DaDakota]

Only 2 games for our bullpen to blow.

DD

[Blake]

As long as Villareal doesn't pitch, we have a chance

Go Stros

[rrj_gamz]

WL...

Peavy is Peavy...

[bobrek]

It's kind of odd that the Astros/Padres play 6 games this year and the Padres got 4 in San Diego.

[Uprising]

I'll be at tonight's game. We're sitting in a suite box above home plate. :D can't wait.

missing the rockets though. :(

[russian88]

W
W

peavy wont be as dominant.

[leroy420]

WL

Peavey is just too dominant right now.

[Legend Killer]

W
L


Peavy is just a nasty Mofo

Peavy + the stros struggling Offense = a CG Shut out

[BrieflySpeaking]

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL



:eek:

[ruddy]

I'll go with the reverse of the jinx muahahahah

[BMoney]

This is the offense Ed Wade was thinking of.....awesome!

[Major Malcontent]

Rock and Roll...this is more like it!

[ruddy]

Yessssssss!!!!!!!! :D :D :D This is entertained baseball!

[BrooksBall]

Good patience by Edmonds on that pitch. Not a bad pitch.

[BrooksBall]

Lee trying his best to hustle. Way to go, big guy! Hustle is a good thing.

[stobbartjohn]

Oswalt looks far from his usual self again

[BrooksBall]

Miggy!

[stobbartjohn]

Wow, is the Astros offense finally clicking?

Brooksball, you think this sudden offensive success might be to do with Tejada in the 3 hole?

[BrooksBall]

I like this lineup.

Bourn
Matsui
Tejada
Puma
Lee
Pence
Wigginton
Towles

[BrooksBall]

Wow, is the Astros offense finally clicking?

Brooksball, you think this sudden offensive success might be to do with Tejada in the 3 hole?

I was just thinking that. What do you think?

Miggy is hitting better than Lee right now. Once Lee gets going, I think hitting him 3rd or 5th will work, too.

[stobbartjohn]

I like this lineup.

Bourn
Matsui
Tejada
Puma
Lee
Pence
Wigginton
Towles

Isn't that tonight's lineup but Wigginton in for Blum?

I agree btw

[BrooksBall]

Isn't that tonight's lineup but Wigginton in for Blum?

I agree btw

Yea, I just threw Wiggy in there cuz he'll be the regular.

I think Pence will be fine in the long run. If Bourn can get some more hits (he's getting the walks) and Wiggy comes around to at least his norm, this offense will be dangerous. We know what everybody else will do.

[stobbartjohn]

I was just thinking that. What do you think?

Miggy is hitting better than Lee right now. Once Lee gets going, I think hitting him 3rd or 5th will work, too.

Yeah, Lee's average seems to be holding up adequately enough but he isn't hitting it hard regularly. Just lacking a little of what makes him at his best. It'll come though, it's not like there's something massively wrong, maybe just a little tweak in technique or maybe just simply slightly off form.

I think the idea was that Lance was driving them in so put him 4th so there's more chance of someone being on. As it is, Miggy is driving them in so there's no one on when Lance gets there. Not going to complain about that though :D

[BrooksBall]

How dare they make Lee have to move his ass two innings in a row!

Lee will take it out on them at the plate.

[stobbartjohn]

Yeah, Lee's average seems to be holding up adequately enough but he isn't hitting it hard regularly. Just lacking a little of what makes him at his best. It'll come though, it's not like there's something massively wrong, maybe just a little tweak in technique or maybe just simply slightly off form.

I think the idea was that Lance was driving them in so put him 4th so there's more chance of someone being on. As it is, Miggy is driving them in so there's no one on when Lance gets there. Not going to complain about that though :D

Not sure if I made myself clear there, but I watch the games and I'm just not FEELING IT from Carlos at the plate. It FEELS sometimes like he's sucking. He's just not really crushing the ball. But then I look at the box score and the stats and see that actually he went 2-4 in the game without me even noticing and that his average is actually not too bad. Anyone else feel this way?

[BrooksBall]

Way to go, Hunter. We have some serious range in center and right.

Of course, we also have Manny II in left to balance things out.

[ruddy]

Not sure if I made myself clear there, but I watch the games and I'm just not FEELING IT from Carlos at the plate. It FEELS sometimes like he's sucking. He's just not really crushing the ball. But then I look at the box score and the stats and see that actually he went 2-4 in the game without me even noticing and that his average is actually not too bad. Anyone else feel this way?

Maybe it's because he's not hitting timely, and to add to the bad perception, his defense is at his worst.

[BrooksBall]

Maybe it's because he's not hitting timely, and to add to the bad perception, his defense is at his worst.

I think that is a good answer. Lee hasn't been knockin' em in like his normal self yet.

[leroy420]

I love Michael Bourn. His OBP is climbing. He's stealing bases at a crazy rate. He's scoring runs. He's playing great defense.

I know Valverde is having trouble and Lidge is looking good so far. But for the long term, I think it was the right move that's going to pay off for a long time.

[edit]Miguel Tejada ain't bad either...no matter how old he is or how you spell his last name.

[BrooksBall]

I love Michael Bourn. His OBP is climbing. He's stealing bases at a crazy rate. He's scoring runs. He's playing great defense.

I know Valverde is having trouble and Lidge is looking good so far. But for the long term, I think it was the right move that's going to pay off for a long time.

Did you catch the end of the Phillies game last night? Lidge got a little shaky but got it done again. He's started the year well but is walking more batters than usual.

[leroy420]

Did you catch the end of the Phillies game last night? Lidge got a little shaky but got it done again. He's started the year well but is walking more batters than usual.

Didn't catch it. Don't watch the Phillies unless they're in the playoffs and the Astros aren't (I was born in Philly but moved to Houston when I was 4).

[DOMINATOR]

nice double steal... been wondering for awhile when they would try that.

[BrooksBall]

Wow, double steal!

It did look like Bard hesitated momentarily because of Bourn.

[leroy420]

C'mon Lee. Make them pay!

[BrooksBall]

Didn't catch it. Don't watch the Phillies unless they're in the playoffs and the Astros aren't (I was born in Philly but moved to Houston when I was 4).

I'm not a Phillies fan but the game was on ESPN and I happened to catch the last 2 innings.

I honestly think Lidge will come undone at some point. I don't wish it upon him but that is my sense.

[stobbartjohn]

A grand slam here would redeem everything Carlos!

[BrooksBall]

A grand slam here would redeem everything Carlos!

I'll take 1 HR for every 3 lazy plays in left field.

[stobbartjohn]

I'll take 1 HR for every lazy play in left field.

You can't expect him to hit a homer in every at bat!

[BrooksBall]

I think this is what Oswalt was hoping for more of this season.

[BrooksBall]

You can't expect him to hit a homer in every at bat!

Hah! I actually meant to type every 3 lazy plays. I edited my post.

[stobbartjohn]

I think this is what Oswalt was hoping for more of this season.

I think this is what we were ALL expecting more of this season!

[leroy420]

Man, it's nice to see one of these games!

[BrooksBall]

Berkman is a frickin' speedster this season!

Seriously, though, that was a fantastic slide.

[BrooksBall]

Take one deep, Hunter! He hasn't had one yet this season.

[ruddy]

Pretty Pretty nice.. :)

[BrooksBall]

Hunter really does beat himself at the plate a lot. He needs to balance his aggressiveness with patience. It seems like he too often makes a decision on what he is going to do before the pitch comes. On that 0-2 count, he needs to slow down the swing, look for a good pitch and just make contact.

[The Cat]

Way to go, Hunter. We have some serious range in center and right.

Of course, we also have Manny II in left to balance things out.

It's particularly stunning, because if you look in another thread on this forum, you have someone swearing that Hunter is a terrible defensive player. How could this be?!? :D

[BrooksBall]

It's particularly stunning, because if you look in another thread on this forum, you have someone swearing that Hunter is a terrible defensive player. How could this be?!? :D

I'm not sure who you are alluding to but it wasn't me. In my opinion, Pence is a good outfielder, not great.

[The Cat]

I'm not sure who you are alluding to but it wasn't me. In my opinion, Pence is a good outfielder, not great.

Haha, no, I definitely wasn't talking about you. :) The last page of the "depressing" thread is what I was referring to. I generally agree with your assessment -- I do think Pence is great in terms of his range, but only good overall because of his inconsistent arm.

[rrj_gamz]

Hell, I'm just glad to be able to see the game on FSN HD here in Dallas...Go Stros!!!!

[ruddy]

Great win, let see if they can get the job done tomorrow against Peavy. :)

[H-townhero]

Man if they beat Peevy would be a good moral booster. They've gotten slaughtered by good pitchers this season.

[BrooksBall]

Qualls: 10.1 IP, 0.00 ERA
Lidge: 8 IP, 0.00 ERA

[cardpire]

Qualls: 10.1 IP, 0.00 ERA
Lidge: 8 IP, 0.00 ERA


let's end it with the lidge stuff....without trading him, there is no bourn, geary (been good so far), or costanzo, who helped us fetch tejada.

finally the offense comes around. beating peavy would be a big confidence boost.

how did byrdak look?

[bobrek]

Qualls: 10.1 IP, 0.00 ERA
Lidge: 8 IP, 0.00 ERA

You forgot Albers at 0.68 - 13.1 IP

You also forgot these guys

Lamb - .145
Everett - .185
Burke - .138
Bruntlett - .170
(To be Fair) - Scott - .361

Jennings - 7.08
Sarfate - 6.75

[MadMax]

We don't have some guys...we have some others. Let's focus on the ones we have at this point. I think they're going to have a good week.

[studogg]

You forgot Albers at 0.68 - 13.1 IP

You also forgot these guys

Lamb - .145
Everett - .185
Burke - .138
Bruntlett - .170
(To be Fair) - Scott - .361

Jennings - 7.08
Sarfate - 6.75

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't checked the stats but heard Jennings started out the season well. I guess that didn't last long.

[kaleidosky]

Qualls: 10.1 IP, 0.00 ERA
Lidge: 8 IP, 0.00 ERA

Thanks for the contribution.

[Uprising]

Great game!

I had so much fun at it. Damn, watching a game up in the suites is amazing! :eek:

Free booze...Free Food (good food too)....

It was awesome.

[BrooksBall]

Thanks for the contribution.

I was only posting those stats because they were impressive. I am well aware of the struggles of many of the other guys who we traded away.

I actually think the Astros did the right thing in both cases. Lidge needed a change and we had to have a closer so parting with Qualls was necessary.

I also think Lidge will eventually come undone. It gets harder to stick to that as he continues to put up zeroes, though.

[Uprising]

I only watched one game where Lidge pitched this season. And he walked 2 guys, wild pitched another. but got out of the bases loaded jam with the last out.

[Buck Turgidson]

Bourn has a sore groin, will probably sit out a few games.

Kaz leadoff, Erstad in cf, hitting 2nd.

[The Cat]

Bourn has a sore groin, will probably sit out a few games.

Kaz leadoff, Erstad in cf, hitting 2nd.

Damn, that's not the kind of injury you want to hear about from a guy with that kind of speed.

[Buck Turgidson]

Damn, that's not the kind of injury you want to hear about from a guy with that kind of speed.
Coop said on the pregame that it's probably from him taking a beating on the basepaths, and it's been bothering him a bit for the past few games. He had a couple of pretty awkward looking slides earlier in the season, sliding late & almost sliding completely over & past the bag & kinda had to hook it with his foot. He's looked better in the last couple of tries I've seen. But yeah, hopefully it's nothing long-term.

[The Cat]

Coop said on the pregame that it's probably from him taking a beating on the basepaths, and it's been bothering him a bit for the past few games. He had a couple of pretty awkward looking slides earlier in the season, sliding late & almost sliding completely over & past the bag & kinda had to hook it with his foot. He's looked better in the last couple of tries I've seen. But yeah, hopefully it's nothing long-term.

If it's been bothering him for a few games, that makes me feel better. Clearly he's been every bit as aggressive these past few games and didn't lose a step in that stretch, so hopefully he should be able to be himself even if he's sore for another week or so after he returns.

[Buck Turgidson]

What a great play at 1B by Tejada, he continues to impress the hell out of me.

[stobbartjohn]

Can't believe Backe just walked Peavey. Didn't he have an RBI off Roy in the first game too? Peavey is like A-Rod in the batter's box against us lol :D

[ruddy]

Miggggy is on fire. :eek:

[ruddy]

Well, it's Carlos Lee, the rally killer these days. Good to see Peavy at 60+ pitches already. :D

[cardpire]

What a great play at 1B by Tejada, he continues to impress the hell out of me.

it's Tejeda.

[stobbartjohn]

it's Tejeda.

It's Tejada

[ruddy]

It's Tejada

It's Tejeda LoL. :D

[cardpire]

It's Tejeda LoL. :D


tejeda, tejada, tomayta, tomahta.....let's call the whole thing off.

[stobbartjohn]

It's Tejeda LoL. :D

Let's just call him Miggy lol :)

[Nick]

I guess we have the wrong scouting report against Peavy.... (for him as a batter, that is).

[stobbartjohn]

Now Peavy singles! He'd bat .400 if he could face us every game lol

[Nick]

Backe running out of gas like T-mac did last night.

[The Cat]

And there's why you can't let pitchers on base.

[ruddy]

OMG, easy like that..... :mad:

[stobbartjohn]

And there's Carlos sucking again

[BrooksBall]

And there's Carlos sucking again

He really has been coming up empty when we need him most.

[BrooksBall]

Hunter... finally!!!

That was just against Peavy, either. That was against Peavy right after he finally got the lead. You know Peavy was on a high coming into this inning.

[DOMINATOR]

wow im amazing... i called the carlos lee GIDP then i called the hunter pence HR.

awesome HR pence.

[Buck Turgidson]

Pence cracks me up, dude was so pumped he didn't think to look at the ump.

[stobbartjohn]

He really has been coming up empty when we need him most.

Don't worry baby

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3QCZ_bv9aLc&feature=related

[ruddy]

Whooooooooooooooooooooooopppp Number 1 From Hunter!!! just in time kid.

[codell]

I don't need caffeine. I just watch Hunter Pence.

[Buck Turgidson]

I don't need caffeine. I just watch Hunter Pence.
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9500/b0000dg5ue01lzzzzzzzoz2.jpg

[stobbartjohn]

Haha, see that fan give Hunter a pat on the back there?

[Buck Turgidson]

Tejada's a Bagwellian baserunner. Great turn at 3rd, another great slide. He's heady.

[stobbartjohn]

Wooooooooo, the middle of our order is awesome right now. Miggy is just trailing flames around the ballpark. Jake who? Get outta here dude

[BrooksBall]

Hmmm, I'd say Brocail is having a bad outing.

[Buck Turgidson]

Damn, Brocail. Papa Grande's gotta be warming up soon.

[BrooksBall]

Make that a horrible outing.

[BrooksBall]

Can Valverde get a 5 out save?

[Buck Turgidson]

Make that a horrible outing.
Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger, sometimes you're the ball.

[dockerland]

Can Valverde get a 5 out save?

Hopefully, need a bit of luck here.

[Fiah]

BS CALL!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Buck Turgidson]

Can Valverde get a 5 out save?
He went 1+ in 3 of his 65 games last season.

Now THAT was a throw. Great job hanging in by Towles too.

[stobbartjohn]

That was close. I'm not so sure he was safe

[Buck Turgidson]

BS CALL!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
He was safe.

[BrooksBall]

I may be ignorant, but that looked like an out to me.

Can anybody help me understand that call? It looked like he tagged his left leg well before he touched the plate.

[Astro101]

Sigh...hell of a try by Pence though.

[stobbartjohn]

I may be ignorant, but that looked like an out to me.

Can anybody help me understand that call? It looked like he tagged his left leg well before he touched the plate.

I thought the same. The bottom of his glove tagged him right as he caught the ball. Does that not count?

[Buck Turgidson]

Can anybody help me understand that call? It looked like he tagged his left leg well before he touched the plate.
Only caught the 1 replay & need to see it again, but it looked like Towles didn't have control of the ball until after AG hit the plate with his arm.

[BrooksBall]

I just rewinded and watched the replay. That was the right call. Runner was safe.

[bobrek]

I thought the same. The bottom of his glove tagged him right as he caught the ball. Does that not count?

The runner touched the plate with his hand before a tag was made by Towles (if he ever even made the tag). The replay showed he was clearly safe.

[BrooksBall]

Only caught the 1 replay & need to see it again, but it looked like Towles didn't have control of the ball until after AG hit the plate with his arm.

It wasn't a matter of controlling the ball. He didn't tag him.

[BrooksBall]

On another note, Valverde was pretty good.

[Nick]

We just scored 7 runs in a game that Peavy started... and yet we're not winning this game.

That's dissapointing.

[Buck Turgidson]

On another note, Valverde was pretty good.
He blew the save. He sucks.

[The Cat]

On another note, Valverde was pretty good.

The next time anyone cites the save/blown save statistic, they need to be pointed to this game. Valverde did an excellent job, yet somehow he gets the "blown save" under that absurd statistic because Brocail gave up 3 runs and left a runner on third with one out. Worst stat in all of sports.

EDIT: Buck beat me to it.

[BrooksBall]

The next time anyone cites the save/blown save statistic, they need to be pointed to this game. Valverde did an excellent job, yet somehow he gets the "blown save" under that absurd statistic because Brocail gave up 3 runs and left a runner on third with one out. Worst stat in all of sports.

EDIT: Buck beat me to it.

Maybe, I missed something. I was saying Valverde did good.

[BrooksBall]

Kaz at it again. Woot! Woot!

[Buck Turgidson]

The next time anyone cites the save/blown save statistic, they need to be pointed to this game.
It would be cool to have some sort of standarized stat for relievers comparable to the quality start. There's so much more context to relievers appearances (part of game, score, men on base?) that I'm not sure you could do it.

Have I mentioned yet how much I like Kaz?

[dockerland]

Thing of beauty there

[stobbartjohn]

The next time anyone cites the save/blown save statistic, they need to be pointed to this game. Valverde did an excellent job, yet somehow he gets the "blown save" under that absurd statistic because Brocail gave up 3 runs and left a runner on third with one out. Worst stat in all of sports.

EDIT: Buck beat me to it.


Is it a blown save even in the 8th? What if he comes in now and saves it? Is that a blown save and a save in the same game????

[JunkyardDwg]

That Matsui has sure been looking past his prime.

[VesceySux]

Damn, I'm lovin' Matsui so far.

[BrooksBall]

Thing of beauty there

Alright, Astros!

They just keep responding.

[DOMINATOR]

Is it a blown save even in the 8th? What if he comes in now and saves it? Is that a blown save and a save in the same game????
he gets a BS and W, i think. i dont think the BS goes on brocail but the earned run does.


astros rolling against heath bell... they get our top middle reliever we get theirs.
10-7 stros!!!!

[Nick]

Is it a blown save even in the 8th? What if he comes in now and saves it? Is that a blown save and a save in the same game????

No... if he pitches the 9th, he gets the blown save and a win in the same game.

[JunkyardDwg]

Damn this is fun, the team comes right back and gets those runs Brocail gave up.

Can we just forget Brocail ever came into the game and let Backe still be on the line for the win?

[The Cat]

Maybe, I missed something. I was saying Valverde did good.

Oh yeah, I agree. Was just adding to it for the numerous posters (not you) who went crazy over various players in the offseason and their save/blown save ratios.

[BrooksBall]

My goodness gracious. Miggy 4/5.

[VesceySux]

Damn, I'm lovin' Tejada so far.

[Buck Turgidson]

That Matsui has sure been looking past his prime.
If he can play 130+ games, wow....He & Bourn are just outstanding at the top of the order. Stros haven't had team speed like this since the late 90's.

[Nick]

That's some Texas Rangers-like baseball right there.... hang em and bang em.

[WhoMikeJames]

WOW! Tejada is on FIRE! 2 Straight 4 hit games.

[dockerland]

Tejada has been on fire

[H-townhero]

god damn Tejada is a monster, Matsui + Tejada acquisitions are money so far.

[JunkyardDwg]

That's some Texas Rangers-like baseball right there.... hang em and bang em.

And in a game where Peavy was pitching to boot!

[VesceySux]

No save situation for Valverde now?

[BrooksBall]

Ok, here's a couple questions. I don't feel like looking it up.

Did we score 10+ back-to-back even once last season? I definitely recall at least one game where we put up double digits.

How many times did we score 10+ all of last season?

[The Cat]

Is it a blown save even in the 8th? What if he comes in now and saves it? Is that a blown save and a save in the same game????

It's a blown save regardless of the inning, in most circumstances. For example, Lidge had a couple of those situations last year -- one in particular I remember was an even worse spot than Valverde was put in tonight. Bases loaded, none out, one run lead in the 6th inning -- he comes in. Allows only one run on a sac fly, does his job ridiculously well, Astros win the game. Yet under that absurd stat, he was given a "blown save," and you had all sorts of posters slamming him in the offseason for his save/blown save ratio without remotely considering the circumstances.

The stat sucks. :p

[Nick]

No save situation for Valverde now?

Once he blew the save, but kept the game tied, there was no chance he was going to be able to get the save.

He would either have gotten a no decision (if the Astros didn't score), or the win.

[H-townhero]

You sure the BS is on Valverde and not Brocail since it was his ER?

[stobbartjohn]

It's a blown save regardless of the inning, in most circumstances. For example, Lidge had a couple of those situations last year -- one in particular I remember was an even worse spot than Valverde was put in tonight. Bases loaded, none out, one run lead in the 6th inning -- he comes in. Allows only one run on a sac fly, does his job ridiculously well, Astros win the game. Yet under that absurd stat, he was given a "blown save," and you had all sorts of posters slamming him in the offseason for his save/blown save ratio without remotely considering the circumstances.

The stat sucks. :p

Ok, one more question. Is it a save OPPORTUNITY. When you get shown saves/opportunities does that include innings pitched in the 6th. Because I don't understand how it can count as an opp. Obviously only one save can be given out per game, so if Brocail comes in in the 7th on a 1 run lead and holds the lead, he gets a hold, not a save right? But if he gives up the lead it's a blown save? So when it says saves/opportunities someone can actually blow a save without actually having the opportunity to earn a save? That sucks for them I suppose.

[The Cat]

You sure the BS is on Valverde and not Brocail since it was his ER?

Yup -- that's how the stat is calculated. It's a joke, but that's the way it is.

[JunkyardDwg]

You sure the BS is on Valverde and not Brocail since it was his ER?

Valverde gets charged for the run and the bs, but the run won't be earned.

[The Cat]

Ok, one more question. Is it a save OPPORTUNITY. When you get shown saves/opportunities does that include innings pitched in the 6th. Because I don't understand how it can count as an opp. Obviously only one save can be given out per game, so if Brocail comes in in the 7th on a 1 run lead and holds the lead, he gets a hold, not a save right? But if he gives up the lead it's a blown save? So when it says saves/opportunities someone can actually blow a save without actually having the opportunity to earn a save? That sucks for them I suppose.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[DOMINATOR]

Ok, one more question. Is it a save OPPORTUNITY. When you get shown saves/opportunities does that include innings pitched in the 6th. Because I don't understand how it can count as an opp. Obviously only one save can be given out per game, so if Brocail comes in in the 7th on a 1 run lead and holds the lead, he gets a hold, not a save right? But if he gives up the lead it's a blown save? So when it says saves/opportunities someone can actually blow a save without actually having the opportunity to earn a save? That sucks for them I suppose.
you only earn a save if you pitch in the 9th.
all other innings are called Holds. but in all innings their called blown saves if you give up lead.

[BrooksBall]

Ok, here's a couple questions. I don't feel like looking it up.

Did we score 10+ back-to-back even once last season? I definitely recall at least one game where we put up double digits.

How many times did we score 10+ all of last season?

I looked it up. We scored 10+ runs 11 times last season but never back-to-back.

[JunkyardDwg]

you only earn a save if you pitch in the 9th.
all other innings are called Holds. but in all innings their called blown saves if you give up lead.


Ah but by that logic Backe would have already blown the save when he gave up the lead in the 6th. What a screwed up stat.

[Buck Turgidson]

So when it says saves/opportunities someone can actually blow a save without actually having the opportunity to earn a save? That sucks for them I suppose.
If a pitcher comes in with the lead in the 6th-8th, it's a save opportunity because he *could* finish the game & get a save.

[Nick]

Yup -- that's how the stat is calculated. It's a joke, but that's the way it is.

I kinda wish they did away with the saves stat... it definitely changes how managers manage the game these days (doing the "assigned role" bullpen, which basically limits good pitchers to 1 inning appearences).

Damn you Tony LaRussa.

[DOMINATOR]

Ah but by that logic Backe would have already blown the save when he gave up the lead in the 6th. What a screwed up stat.
No, because he was the starting pitcher. starters cant get a save because they didnt come into the game with a lead. you can't have a W/L and a S/BS.

[Nick]

If a pitcher comes in with the lead in the 6th-8th, it's a save opportunity because he *could* finish the game & get a save.

But if he gets the hold (and not the save), he doesn't get awarded the "save opportunity."

[stobbartjohn]

If a pitcher comes in with the lead in the 6th-8th, it's a save opportunity because he *could* finish the game & get a save.

Yeah, but my point is that if he pitches 6th,7th and 8th and holds the lead the entire time, he doesn't get a save. But if he gives up the lead in that time, he gets a blown save. Not really an "opportunity" as such. If that's your definition of an opportunity, I'd hate you to be my employer :D

[Buck Turgidson]

I kinda wish they did away with the saves stat... it definitely changes how managers manage the game these days (doing the "assigned role" bullpen, which basically limits good pitchers to 1 inning appearences).
And thus it's caused relief pitcher salaries to skyrocket.

[Puedlfor]

Valverde won't get the run, but since he was in the game when the lead was lost - he gets the blown save.

I think Brocail might get a hold, because he came into the game when his team had the lead, and left it the same way. But I don't know the ins and outs of that one.

BTW - by my figuring, Tejada has hit 14/27 with 2 2B, 2HR and 9 RBI since the details of his "dark and shadowy" past were bravely exposed by E:60. Someone should see if he has anymore secrets - maybe an overdue library book, an unpaid parking ticket, perhaps he crossed the street without looking both ways once.

[H-townhero]

Valverde won't get the run, but since he was in the game when the lead was lost - he gets the blown save.

I think Brocail might get a hold, because he came into the game when his team had the lead, and left it the same way. But I don't know the ins and outs of that one.

BTW - by my figuring, Tejada has hit 14/27 with 2 2B, 2HR and 8 RBI since the details of his "dark and shadowy" past were bravely exposed by E:60. Someone should see if he has anymore secrets - maybe an overdue library book, an unpaid parking ticket, perhaps he crossed the street without looking both ways once.


Haha if it makes him hit like this, I'll get right on that...

[Buck Turgidson]

But if he gets the hold (and not the save), he doesn't get awarded the "save opportunity."
Yeah, makes since don't it? I misread john's post that I replied to.

[JunkyardDwg]

No, because he was the starting pitcher. starters cant get a save because they didnt come into the game with a lead. you can't have a W/L and a S/BS.


Well I know that, but still using that logic, that if you cough up the lead you get charged for the blown save, then Backe should essentially get a blown save. But obviously the starter can't get charged for it, but a reliever who comes into the game with a man on 3rd and less than 2 outs, does his job but still gives up a run, gets charged for a bs, instead of the man who put him in that situation in the first place. Just trying to point out the absurdity here.

If you can only get a save in the ninth, then you should only be able to blow a save in the 9th. Maybe they should come up with a new stat...the blown hold or something.

[BrooksBall]

Finally, Valverde gets a 1-2-3 inning.

[cardpire]

I kinda wish they did away with the saves stat... it definitely changes how managers manage the game these days (doing the "assigned role" bullpen, which basically limits good pitchers to 1 inning appearences).

Damn you Tony LaRussa.


wouldnt change anything at this point in time. managers dont manage the final innings of games based on a stat.

that's like saying managers start their "starting pitchers" just to give them the best chance at the win stat. pitchers have their roles in bullpens, and the save stat doesn't determine them.

[bobrek]

Well I know that, but still using that logic, that if you cough up the lead you get charged for the blown save, then Backe should essentially get a blown save. But obviously the starter can't get charged for it, but a reliever who comes into the game with a man on 3rd and less than 2 outs, does his job but still gives up a run, gets charged for a bs, instead of the man who put him in that situation in the first place. Just trying to point out the absurdity here.

If you can only get a save in the ninth, then you should only be able to blow a save in the 9th. Maybe they should come up with a new stat...the blown hold or something.

In this case Brocail could not receive a blown save because he entered into a non-save situation (4+ run lead).

At times it is absurd. Just like getting a save if you pitch the 9th with a 3 run lead and give up 2 runs. Or coming in with a 10-5 lead, bases loaded and two outs and get the third out.

[Nick]

And thus it's caused relief pitcher salaries to skyrocket.

And managers no longer have to really manage. Its like auto-pilot once your bullpen roles are defined.

I guess a manager who can help mold a bullpen from scratch is valuable (kinda like 1M did), but once you have it done... you basically live and die with a set decision not based on any circumstances that are actually going on.

[cardpire]

And managers no longer have to really manage. Its like auto-pilot once your bullpen roles are defined.

I guess a manager who can help mold a bullpen from scratch is valuable (kinda like 1M did), but once you have it done... you basically live and die with a set decision not based on any circumstances that are actually going on.


once again, none of this is because the save statistic exists. if they eliminated it, you'd still see "closers" finishing games in the same roles they have now. they wouldn't suddenly be pitching more innings and coming in earlier in the game.

[stobbartjohn]

Anyway guys, enough talk of the absurdity of pitching stats. Our first sweep of the season :D albeit a 2 game one

[Nick]

At times it is absurd. Just like getting a save if you pitch the 9th with a 3 run lead and give up 2 runs. Or coming in with a 10-5 lead, bases loaded and two outs and get the third out.

Or pitching 3 or more innings of releif and completing the game... REGARDLESS OF THE SCORE... and getting the save.

Seriously... the game could be 24-0... and they simply get a pitcher in to get some work. If he pitches the final 3 innings of the game, its a save.

[Puedlfor]

that's like saying managers start their "starting pitchers" just to give them the best chance at the win stat. pitchers have their roles in bullpens, and the save stat doesn't determine them.

Unless that stat comes to define the role - in the way that the save has come to define the closers role. Closers gets saves, so they mostly show up when they get a shot at a save.

Managers go with it because it's the conventional wisdom and you're never going to get hell for going with the conventional wisdom and failing.

[ind0fo0]

What a game! It seems that this year we are capable of changing the momentum and make big plays when needed.

21 runs in last 2 days :D
51 runs in last 6 days :D

[Nick]

once again, none of this is because the save statistic exists. if they eliminated it, you'd still see "closers" finishing games in the same roles they have now. they wouldn't suddenly be pitching more innings and coming in earlier in the game.

Not true.

You'd have guys who'd be built/conditioned to throw more than 1 or so inning. Most team's set-up men are capable of throwing more than 1 inning. Same with the 7th inning guy. Of course, the 9th inning guy is the best pitcher... and in this day and age, they're groomed to only pitch one inning, but it isn't the most "practical".

Also, you could eliminate the situation of where a manager brings in his closer with a 3 run lead in the 9th simply because its a "save" situation. Most members of the bullpen would be able to protect that lead... and if they ever got in trouble, or gave up a run, you would still have the closer available as a safety net.

[Puedlfor]

Seriously... the game could be 24-0... and they simply get a pitcher in to get some work. If he pitches the final 3 innings of the game, its a save.

why, it could even be 14-3 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL200708221.shtml) when he enters the game, and he'll still get that save for going three innings.

[BrooksBall]

Is there another team in baseball that has the potential to be as deadly a combination of small ball and slugging? Phillies, Red Sox?

[cardpire]

Unless that stat comes to define the role - in the way that the save has come to define the closers role. Closers gets saves, so they mostly show up when they get a shot at a save.

Managers go with it because it's the conventional wisdom and you're never going to get hell for going with the conventional wisdom and failing.


that is because "save situations" in the 9th inning are close, pressure-packed situations, and, in theory, these "closers" are paid because they are thought of as having the mindset and pitch aresenal to succeed in these situations.

[DOMINATOR]

Is there another team in baseball that has the potential to be as deadly a combination of small ball and slugging?
Detroit Tigers

[Nick]

Is there another team in baseball that has the potential to be as deadly a combination of small ball and slugging?

Off the top of my head (just in the NL)... the Rockies, the Phillies, the Dodgers, the Diamondbacks, the Braves, the Cubs, and the Mets. All these teams have decent speedsters at the top of the lineup, and premium sluggers at the heart of the order.

I'd name some AL teams... but they don't even try to play small ball.

[BrooksBall]

Detroit Tigers

I'll agree but if Bourn can break out, we will have a pretty lethal combination of speed and power. The only guys I am worried about striking out a lot are Pence, Wigginton and then Bourn, to a lesser extent.

[Nick]

that is because "save situations" in the 9th inning are close, pressure-packed situations, and, in theory, these "closers" are paid because they are thought of as having the mindset and pitch aresenal to succeed in these situations.

And the converse of this is that they often apparently don't have the mindset and pitch aresenal to pitch more than one inning, or pitch in a tie game or non-save situation... simply because of the way the game is played now, and how these guys are brought up to become used to being simply the 9th inning guy.

The whole "save situation" is one that arose simply because of the stat. Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage were "saving" many games... but they weren't being brought in only in the 9th, and managers weren't wasting them in easy situations simply because a "save" could be awarded.

[cardpire]

And the converse of this is that they often apparently don't have the mindset and pitch aresenal to pitch more than one inning, or pitch in a tie game or non-save situation... simply because of the way the game is played now, and how these guys are brought up to become used to being simply the 9th inning guy.

The whole "save situation" is one that arose simply because of the stat. Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage were "saving" many games... but they weren't being brought in only in the 9th, and managers weren't wasting them in easy situations simply because a "save" could be awarded.


right...that's what i'm saying. a "save situation" in the 9th inning happens to be (unsurprisingly) a pressure situation, where you'd usually want to be pitching your closer anyway.

[Nick]

right...that's what i'm saying. a "save situation" in the 9th inning happens to be (unsurprisingly) a pressure situation, where you'd usually want to be pitching your closer anyway.

Not if you're up 3 with nobody on. Closers are almost universally brought in during that situation as well simply because a "save" is on the line.

Also, plenty of "crucial" situations often happen in the 7th or 8th innings, when releif pitchers come in with men on base, or protecting a 1 run lead... that could get extended to a 3-4 run lead by the 9th.

[Puedlfor]

Except that saves often aren't the closest most pressure-packed situations in the game - the situations where you want your best reliever to pitch.

Where would you rather have your best reliever pitch: against the 3-4-5 hitters in a tie/close game in the 8th, or against the 6-7-8 hitters in the 9th?

Because of the save stat, only the appearance in the 9th seems to have significant value, even if the job done in the 8th was equally as valuable to a win. And because of the specialization brought about by the importance of the "save" you can just forget about asking him to go both innings on a regular basis.

[BrooksBall]

Off the top of my head (just in the NL)... the Rockies, the Phillies, the Dodgers, the Diamondbacks, the Braves, the Cubs, and the Mets. All these teams have decent speedsters at the top of the lineup, and premium sluggers at the heart of the order.

I'd name some AL teams... but they don't even try to play small ball.

I'm not sure all of those teams you listed have as much potential for speed and power as the Astros.

You won't find a lineup with three guys any faster than Bourn, Matsui and Pence.

You also won't find many lineups with much more slugging potential than Berkman, Lee, Tejada, Pence and Wigginton. Maybe, even Towles.

For example, the D-Backs are a terrific small-ball team but do they really have proven sluggers? Jackson and Reynolds are the middle of their lineup and they haven't proven to be consistent sluggers yet. Byrne is well-rounded and Young has power but he has yet to hit for average and he hits at the top of the lineup.

The Cubs have Theriot and Soriano who are quick but not faster than our speedsters. Fukudome looks like a good hitter but we haven't seen enough of him yet. Obviously, the Cubs can slug.

Do the Mets really have any more slugging potential than us? Yes, I know about Wright and Beltran but who knows what Delgado will do. Reyes is as fast as anybody but do they have 2 or 3 guys like that?

The Braves have slugging but I'm not sure they have the same potential for small-ball as the Astros.

The Phillies have plenty of power, especially if Burrell keeps it up, but will he? I'm not sure that Berkman, Lee and Tejada aren't at least as good as Utley, Howard and Burrell. They do have speed when Rollins and Victorino are healthy but not as much as the Stros.

Obviously, the Tigers have ridiculously good hitters and should get on base a lot so it's hard to say we have more small-ball/slugging potential than them. Same goes for the Red Sox.

The bottom line is that the Astros have the potential to have as dynamic an offense as any team in the league, especially if Bourn has a big year. Even better, if Wigginton comes back and is at least as good as his norm. And, who knows how good Towles will end up being.

[cardpire]

Not if you're up 3 with nobody on. Closers are almost universally brought in during that situation as well simply because a "save" is on the line.

Also, plenty of "crucial" situations often happen in the 7th or 8th innings, when releif pitchers come in with men on base, or protecting a 1 run lead... that could get extended to a 3-4 run lead by the 9th.


i dont see what the problem with bringing in your closer in with none on up 3 is anyway, whether mlb were to define that as a save situation or not.

either way, i dont think the save statistic is for the manager as much as it is for the fan; it just so happens that "save situations" coincide with when a manager would want to use his closer anyway, so saves naturally are able to become a decent measure of a closer doing his job. i agree with what all you said about the idiocy of the blown save stat though.

[cardpire]

Except that saves often aren't the closest most pressure-packed situations in the game - the situations where you want your best reliever to pitch.

Where would you rather have your best reliever pitch: against the 3-4-5 hitters in a tie/close game in the 8th, or against the 6-7-8 hitters in the 9th?

Because of the save stat, only the appearance in the 9th seems to have significant value, even if the job done in the 8th was equally as valuable to a win. And because of the specialization brought about by the importance of the "save" you can just forget about asking him to go both innings on a regular basis.


i'm not disagreeing with you, but, like i said, in theory, a "closer" is somebody who has the mentality to pitch and get through a 9th inning with a small lead. having the finish line in sight apparently brings a non-closer to his knees.

heck, alot of you guys brushed off qualls' 0.00 era so far this season because "it doesnt matter, we couldnt use him as a closer because he doesnt have the closer mentality".

[rrj_gamz]

Great to get a win...

[Nick]

heck, alot of you guys brushed off qualls' 0.00 era so far this season because "it doesnt matter, we couldnt use him as a closer because he doesnt have the closer mentality".

Qualls would fill in just fine as a closer... much like Wheeler did in his short stint when he replaced Lidge. Hell, most releif pitcherswith plus stuff would rack up a pretty good save percentage, if given enough opportunity.

Its why every year, there's some "new" closer who puts up gaudy numbers out of nowhere. Most of the time, these guys weren't closing in the minors... its just where they were able to find there way up to the big leagues.

Its also why established closers, while valuable and pricey, change teams fairly often... more than the other established starting pitchers and position players.

[Raven Lunatic]

That Valverde AB was bizarre.

[msn]

Its also why established closers, while valuable and pricey, change teams fairly often... more than the other established starting pitchers and position players.
Like Hoffman and Rivera. :D

[RocketManJosh]

Even with the short series, it was still nice to get the sweep. Lets keep it going and take care of the Reds

[Nick]

Like Hoffman and Rivera. :D

Yea... pick the guys who are likely #1 and #3 (Eckersly #2) in terms of greatest closers since the save statistic was adopted.

[Buck Turgidson]

Yea... pick the guys who are likely #1 and #3 (Eckersly #2) in terms of greatest closers since the save statistic was adopted.
Exception that proves the rule.

[Major]

Qualls would fill in just fine as a closer... much like Wheeler did in his short stint when he replaced Lidge. Hell, most releif pitcherswith plus stuff would rack up a pretty good save percentage, if given enough opportunity.

Its why every year, there's some "new" closer who puts up gaudy numbers out of nowhere. Most of the time, these guys weren't closing in the minors... its just where they were able to find there way up to the big leagues.


Two days ago, you said this:

First of all, out of all three of those years.... Valverde was only the full time closer in one of them (last year). Hell, if you use simple numbers as a comparison, Octavio Dotel was just as dominant as anybody in baseball not named Pedro in 2001-02-03 as a pitcher... however, the comparison was their performance, at their peaks, as closers (which we all know is an entirely different ballgame than being the setup man).

:)

[Nick]

However, the comparison was their performance, at their peaks, as closers (which we all know is an entirely different ballgame than being the setup man).[/i]

Yes... and I stand by that. It is an entirely different dynamic... but it doesn't mean that career 7th or 8th inning guys can't adapt or succeed more than 80 or 90% of the time.

And, for a 7th inning guy like Lidge, his numbers went up dramatically once he became a closer.

My main point is that while its a different dynamic, it doesn't mean that only a small select number of established closers are cut out for it.