Astros vs. Rockies

[leroy420]

Not meaning to step on Castor's toes, but thought it should get started and I'm sure he's busy...

4-18 @ 7:05pm - Chris Sampson (0-1 4.22 era) vs. Franklin Morales (0-1 6.30 era)
4-19 @ 6:05om - Wandy Rodriguez (1-0 2.33 era) vs. Aaron Cook (1-1 3.79 era)
4-20 (woohoo) @ 1:05pm - Shawn Chacon (0-0 2.25 era) vs. Ubaldo Jiménez (1-2 4.60 era)


Have to jump on them early tonight. The Rocks played 22 innings in San Diego last night and have to be completely exhausted. Kaz Matsui should be making his 1st appearance in 2008 tonight.

WWW

[H-townhero]

here's hoping for a series sweep, god knows we could use it. :o

[Buck Turgidson]

Have to jump on them early tonight. The Rocks played 22 innings in San Diego last night and have to be completely exhausted.
The only guy in their bullpen who hasn't been used heavily this week is Fuentes; their long reliever went 4 innings last night. Morales has struggled with his command in his 2 starts & thrown a lot of pitches early, Stros really need to be patient tonight & work some counts. A 3-spot in the first couple of innings wouldn't hurt, either.

[kaleidosky]

WWL.. I think Jimenez will kill us even though I don't think he's as good as his hype at all. I just expect the 'stros to be the 'stros against a young pitcher with a fastball..

[ruddy]

WWW

It's time to get this going. :)

[cmpatel]

if we lose today....after the rockies just had a 22 inning game yday....i dont know what i will do.....

[BrooksBall]

This is painful to watch.

[Shehzad23]

Just like yesterday.

[BrooksBall]

Shoot me.

[Cannonball]

Holy crap! I mean, I know you really can't pull your starter in the 1st because it just taxes your bullpen but DAMN! 6-0 on 6 hits in 1/3 of an inning. Check that, they do have somebody warming up.

[BrooksBall]

This is Jennings-like.

[cmpatel]

wow ru kidding me right now

[ind0fo0]

omfg what the hell.

6-0

1 out in the first inning?? game over. :o UGH just when you think things look good for the astros.

[Cannonball]

How often do you see a team bat around in the first inning?

[ruddy]

Just...it, We already lost this game.. :mad:

[Cannonball]

Dude couldn't even get 3 ****ing out.

[BrooksBall]

What do we do with Sampson?

[Buck Turgidson]

Dammit, Sampson, letting the Rockies completely off the hook, had a chance to bust up their bullpen for the whole series tonight. I know he hasn't had regular work in both ST & early in the season, but jeebus, I came home from happy hour early to watch this?

Sampson's margin for error with his stuff is soooooo small, when he can't keep the sinker down & his breaking ball is flat, he's nothing more than a bp pitcher (which is what he was doing at a juco a few years ago when they signed him).

[Cannonball]

What do we do with Sampson?

He was pretty decent in his first 2 games.

[Shehzad23]

Astros i am avaliable to pitch and i can get 3 outs for 6 runs.

[cmpatel]

this is horrible.....i thought we would definitely win tonight.....now i have no clue what to think about the astros.......... :(

[BrooksBall]

He was pretty decent in his first 2 games.

He was very good in at least one of those two starts. This is just sad.

[H-townhero]

Wow I feel sorry for him. Getting pulled the 1st inning is really rough.

[BrooksBall]

this is horrible.....i thought we would definitely win tonight.....now i have no clue what to think about the astros.......... :(

I don't think anybody saw Sampson laying an egg like this.

Adding to the depression: the Rockies are exhausted and their two best hitters are not in the lineup.

[Cannonball]

Sampson's ERA ballooned to 8.74 from 4.22

[BrooksBall]

How long will Drayton stay tonight?

[Buck Turgidson]

Adding to the depression: the Rockies are exhausted and their two best hitters are not in the lineup.
That's the only bright side, still a chance to turn this into a slobberknocker. 6-2 in the 1st against a completely drained staff is a winnable game. Stros pen has to come up huge.

[BrooksBall]

At least, we've got a game again.

[The Cat]

Encouraging sign from Pence to take that the opposite way.

[BrooksBall]

Tying run at the plate.

[ruddy]

Wow I feel sorry for him. Getting pulled the 1st inning is really rough.


You should feel sorry for the Astros Too ;)

[Cannonball]

How often do you see a team bat around in the first inning?

How often to you see both teams bat around in the first inning.

[raw10628]

Can we pinch hit for the 2nd pitcher in the bottom of the first? :D

[BrooksBall]

How often to you see both teams bat around in the first inning.

Craziness.

[BrooksBall]

Morales' ERA is now worse than Sampson's.

[Buck Turgidson]

Morales with 44 pitches in the 1st. Awesome.

[DOMINATOR]

what a crazy game so far.

[Puedlfor]

No matter how bad he sucks, the Rockies can't really pull their starter early tonight. He's just going to have to go out there and take it. So we've got a chance to put some real big numbers on the board, and we need to take advantage of it.

[Buck Turgidson]

No matter how bad he sucks, the Rockies can't really pull their starter early tonight. He's just going to have to go out there and take it. So we've got a chance to put some real big numbers on the board, and we need to take advantage of it.
The Denver paper speculated that if Morales can't go 5, they'll need to throw a position player to help save the bullpen. Get that pitch count up up up, can't let him have any quick AB's the next couple of innings.

[BrooksBall]

Which Astro will hit the first HR tonight?

A. Berkman
B. Lee
C. Tejada
D. Pence
E. Other
F. No Astro HRs

I'm going with Pence.

[Buck Turgidson]

Which Astro will hit the first HR tonight?
Hate predictions, but screw it, I'll go for the reverse jinx.

There will be no home runs for the Stros tonight.

[ruddy]

Hate predictions, but screw it, I'll go for the reverse jinx.

There will be no home runs for the Stros tonight.

I second that. :D

[cardpire]

Originally Posted by Legend Killer
So is he suppose to sacrafice this game because the they dont have a day off in two weeks. You are suppose to play to win the game. You have to give your team the best chance to win the game and when its obvious your starter doesnt have it, you owe it to your players to pull him regardless of the inning, or when the next day off is.


Originally posted by Buck Turgidson, uh, yesterday: This is exactly completely 100% *not* how you manage a regular season game in April.

cough, cough. what is it the BBS people say? PWNED??

chris sampson: pulled after .2 innings. one day after the smug, know-it-all made this post.

[Buck Turgidson]

Encouraging sign from Pence to take that the opposite way.
He took one great hitter's fastball his 1st AB, but outside of that he's looked much, much better. Hitting it where it's pitched. Very encouraging.

[Buck Turgidson]

PWNED??
Yes, I am duly somethinged. What was different about last game & this one? Anything? Let's kiss & make up & try to talk baseball now, mmmkay? I know my ankles are delicious, but have some self-restraint.

[The Cat]

Originally Posted by Legend Killer
So is he suppose to sacrafice this game because the they dont have a day off in two weeks. You are suppose to play to win the game. You have to give your team the best chance to win the game and when its obvious your starter doesnt have it, you owe it to your players to pull him regardless of the inning, or when the next day off is.




cough, cough. what is it the BBS people say? PWNED??

chris sampson: pulled after .2 innings. one day after the smug, know-it-all made this post.

rocketfat:

Backe yesterday at the time of the suggestion: 2+ innings, 3 runs
Sampson today: 2/3 inning, 6 runs

Kind of a different scenario.

[The Cat]

Wow, that was a terrific read by Spilborghs.

[cardpire]

Yes, I am duly somethinged. What was different about last game & this one? Anything? Let's kiss & make up & try to talk baseball now, mmmkay? I know my ankles are delicious, but have some self-restraint.


well, none of that really made sense!

i'm sure you thought taking sampson out after .2 was the correct and obvious call.

i'm sure you were also sweating out somebody calling you out about that.

have fun wiggling, squirming, and grasping at strawzizising your way out of it though. i'll have fun watchin ya!

[Surfguy]

This is so frustrating to watch. Already given up 18 runs in last two games. It feels like enough to last a lifetime.

Make the hurt go away. :(

[Major Malcontent]

Is it just me, or does Carlos look even slower and more plodding going after balls in the OF than normal.

[BrooksBall]

Don't worry, Borkowski is warming up.

Okay... worry.

[cardpire]

rocketfat:

Backe yesterday at the time of the suggestion: 2+ innings, 3 runs
Sampson today: 2/3 inning, 6 runs

Kind of a different scenario.


no, actually, it's quite the same. except in this scenario your taxing your bullpen that you need for the next 20 straight games for 8+ innings instead of 5.

i like to see that you regulars rush to the defense when one of your own get called out though.

[Surfguy]

Is it just me, or does Carlos look even slower and more plodding going after balls in the OF than normal.

Carlos runs like a prissy little girl. Did you see his ballerina step slide attempt last game? :D

[The Cat]

Quite the same? Let's play with the numbers a little, shall we?

At the point in which someone called for Cooper's firing for not pulling Backe yesterday, he had given up 3 runs in 2+ innings. ERA of 13.50, at that point, for the game. Tonight, Sampson was pulled after giving up 6 runs in 2/3 of an inning, with two remaining on base. His ERA for the game was 81.00.

81.00... 13.50... yeah, that's the same.

[cardpire]

Quite the same? Let's play with the numbers a little, shall we?

At the point in which someone called for Cooper's firing for not pulling Backe yesterday, he had given up 3 runs in 2+ innings. ERA of 13.50, at that point, for the game. Tonight, Sampson was pulled after giving up 6 runs in 2/3 of an inning, with two remaining on base. His ERA for the game was 81.00.

81.00... 13.50... yeah, that's the same.

it's the same in the context of what your friend was saying.

i'm not going to continuing arguing this though. as buck turduckin would say "i cant understand things for ya, kid".

[Surfguy]

The Astros look spent for the night. Maybe they should call it a night? They kind of look like the team that played 22 innings and didn't get to sleep until 3 am. Take the rest of the night off. lol. But, put Oscar and Valverde in first so we can give up a few more runs...preferrably homeruns. :mad:

[Buck Turgidson]

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/264/puppyqg4.png

I like you, man. You're silly and you're ignorant, but you've got guts. And guts is enough.

[BrooksBall]

Maddux put up a Sampson line in the 1st inning against the D-Backs.

[Buck Turgidson]

Maddux put up a Sampson line in the 1st inning against the D-Backs.
How 'bout that Bork, eh? ;)

[BrooksBall]

How 'bout that Bork, eh? ;)

He was amazing in mop-up duty. NL Cy Young, no doubt.

[cardpire]

I like you, man. You're silly and you're ignorant, but you've got guts. And guts is enough.


what is that the law folk call this? argumentum ad hominem?

[ruddy]

Carlos Lee stink right now, offensively and defensively. :mad: :mad:

[Blake]

Once again...this sucks.

As Barkley would say, "The Astros are a turrible team right now. Turrible"

[BMoney]

It's been a long time since the Astros sucked two years in a row. The fact that they have such a high payroll for this garbage heap is depressing. I sincerely hope Drayton will allow Wade to rebuild the farm system from top to bottom and let the team rebuild properly. I hate being the Baltimore Orioles West.

[JunkyardDwg]

Sign of a bad team...they find different ways to lose, each and every night.

[Surfguy]

Is Carlos Lee the worst left fielder defensively in the game today? I swear those balls hit his way today would have been caught by most anybody else. It's like he's a step to slow. Every ball hit his way seems to be just out of reach.

[DOMINATOR]

Is Carlos Lee the worst left fielder defensively in the game today? I swear those balls hit his way today would have been caught by most anybody else. It's like he's a step to slow. Every ball hit his way seems to be just out of reach.
yes he is.

[Cannonball]

Considering the game was a lost cause, I figured that Coop would have given Valverde and Villareal some innings to help them work through their struggles. Guess not.

[br0ken_shad0w]

It's been a long time since the Astros sucked two years in a row. The fact that they have such a high payroll for this garbage heap is depressing. I sincerely hope Drayton will allow Wade to rebuild the farm system from top to bottom and let the team rebuild properly. I hate being the Baltimore Orioles West.

Ugh the Baltimore Orioles comparison is getting more and more justified.

[H-Town Info]

Ugh the Baltimore Orioles comparison is getting more and more justified.

i feel the same way. I always felt like this team need to rebuild from the ground and start over. I just don't think McLane wants to rebuild at all...

[Refman]

i feel the same way. I always felt like this team need to rebuild from the ground and start over. I just don't think McLane wants to rebuild at all...
You talk about rebuilding. Let's look at this rationally.

Around the horn...
1B Berkman (having a very good year. Not near the end of his career)
2B Matsui (need to see what he will bring)
SS Tejada (very productive)
3B Wigginton (played well before the injury. we could do better)
RF Pence (hopefully he breaks out of his slump. very good defensively)
CF Bourn (has been a surprise at the plate. excellent defense)
LF Lee (defensive liability. very good run producer at the plate.)
C Towles (good defense. good power. starting to pick up his average)

I don't see any gaping holes there.

The starting pitching has been a nice surprise except for the last 2 games. I would prefer to have gotten a FA 5th starter instead of Sampson.

The bullpen has been good outside of Villarreal and Valverde. Both of these guys have been pretty solid previously. On papaer, the bullpen was expected to be a strength.

I'm not really sure that a complete rebuilding would net you a team that would be significantly better over the next 5 years.

[arkoe]

I'm not really sure that a complete rebuilding would net you a team that would be significantly better over the next 5 years.

I basically agree, but this doesn't address the pitching depth or the fact that the minor league system needs to be rebuild.

Edit: Actually, you did address the pitching, and I don't agree. Our starters are not going to stay as good as they have been.

[Uprising]

The Stros need to roll out a 22 game winning streak. :o

[jgreen91]

Stros = worst team in baseball right now

[cardpire]

poor humberto quintero. he won't clear waivers this time.

and why do you let him be showcased and have a great game a day before putting him on waivers?

this was just a bonehead move by the astros organization. they don't have the balls to cut ausmus, who is clearly inferior to quintero in pretty much every aspect of the game at this point in his career, this is likely his last go-round anyway, and, even if this team were to get things into gear this season, brad ausmus won't be the reason. quintero is a cheap, better than average backup catcher that we could have used for a few years, and we've likely passed up that opportunity.

i figured ed wade was more cutthroat than this, but maybe he is and all things ausmus are drayton's call.

[Major]

poor humberto quintero. he won't clear waivers this time.

and why do you let him be showcased and have a great game a day before putting him on waivers?

So you believe teams are going to decide whether or not to claim a guy based on 1 game?

[stobbartjohn]

I'm back guys! I got banned for a week and busted down to rookie for being rude to Mr. Valverde. I apolagise. Now let's beat the Rockies!

[ruddy]

I'm back guys! I got banned for a week and busted down to rookie for being rude to Mr. Valverde. I apolagise. Now let's beat the Rockies!
LOL, Okay, I remember your outburst... :D :D :D Funny, Welcome back!

[ruddy]

I love baseball and I like it a lot, but never get to play it. So my question is, which position in the outfielder is the most difficult to play, imo it's the left field, If yes, why is Carlos Lee playing that position. :confused:

[DOMINATOR]

I love baseball and I like it a lot, but never get to play it. So my question is, which position in the outfielder is the most difficult to play, imo it's the left field, If yes, why is Carlos Lee playing that position. :confused:
CF is most difficult.

like seeing Berkman haul down the line like that... call coulda gone either way i think it was exact same time.

[stobbartjohn]

What's with Blum's leisurely jogs to first base? I know your 99% out on that play but at least run hard and show some hustle man.

[ruddy]

Thank you Dominator. UHHg Villareal is out there. :(

[stobbartjohn]

Oh no, it's Villareal. I'll be happy if we get out of this innings just 2 runs behind

[stobbartjohn]

Villareal must be hands down worst pitcher in the MLB right now.

By a long way

[stobbartjohn]

Walk, single, single. Better stuff from Villareal today so far

[Cannonball]

Did I miss something? Did Wandy get injured? Because 79 pitches in 4 innings. I can't understand why he's not out there unless something happened when I went to the crapper.

[BrooksBall]

Did I miss something? Did Wandy get injured? Because 79 pitches in 4 innings. I can't understand why he's not out there unless something happened when I went to the crapper.

Groin.

[stobbartjohn]

Did I miss something? Did Wandy get injured? Because 79 pitches in 4 innings. I can't understand why he's not out there unless something happened when I went to the crapper.

No idea why he's come out tbh. Only gave up 1 earned run in those 4 innings. He loaded up the bases last time but even a shaky Wandy is better than Villareal surely?

[stobbartjohn]

Groin.

Ah ok cheers

[ruddy]

Villareal must be hands down worst pitcher in the MLB right now.

By a long way

But how is that the fan know it and the manager seem to be unaware of it. There are things that I dont understant in baseball. :confused:

[DOMINATOR]

does Villareal have a mohawk or something? hes got some fugly long hair in the middle back of his head.
wandy hurt his groin. i think it's just sore.

[stobbartjohn]

But how is that the fan know it and the manager seem to be unaware of it. There are things that I dont understant in baseball. :confused:

Well if the guy's on the payroll, I suppose the manager has to use him for now. What I don't understand is why he didn't eat innings last night in a dead game instead of using Borkowki and then bringing Vilareal in to give up the lead tonight

[BrooksBall]

But how is that the fan know it and the manager seem to be unaware of it. There are things that I dont understant in baseball. :confused:

The starting pitcher only went 0.2 innings yesterday and Villareal didn't pitch. You have to go with what you got.

[Cannonball]

Villareal must be hands down worst pitcher in the MLB right now.

By a long way

That's why I thought Coop would pitch him last night when the game was essentially over. If you want him to work through his problems, let him do it when the game isn't on the line.

He did recover well though.

[stobbartjohn]

That's why I thought Coop would pitch him last night when the game was essentially over. If you want him to work through his problems, let him do it when the game isn't on the line.

He did recover well though.

Crosspost snap!

[stobbartjohn]

Can't believe Bourn had to bail Lee out on that play!

[stobbartjohn]

Man, that was a bull***** call!

[Cannonball]

I know we have the luxury of replay, but that's a BS call. And a man on 2nd with no outs would have been huge.

[stobbartjohn]

That's so dishonest from Spilborghs too. He obviously knew that he'd dropped it but did a first class job of jumping up with it in his hand and conning the refs

[Surfguy]

That's so dishonest from Spilborghs too. He obviously knew that he'd dropped it but did a first class job of jumping up with it in his hand and conning the refs

lol...what did you want him to do? it was a smart play on his part. he realized the refs probably didn't have the angle to see it so all he had to do was sell it. i blame the astros. they are just bad luck at times...to the point of it rubbing off on those around them. lol

[Cannonball]

That's so dishonest from Spilborghs too. He obviously knew that he'd dropped it but did a first class job of jumping up with it in his hand and conning the refs

OH NOHS1!1!!!1 FLOPPING HAS MADES ITS WAYS INTO THE BASEBALLZ1!!!1!1!1

[DOMINATOR]

OH NOHS1!1!!!1 FLOPPING HAS MADES ITS WAYS INTO THE BASEBALLZ1!!!1!1!1
lol :D

the ump should know if a ball is snowconed like that then the player holds up the glove showing they caught it... blum should have just sat down on 2nd lol

[BrooksBall]

Astros fans criticizing a professional baseball player for lying and deceiving??

Just kidding.

[Cannonball]

lol :D

the ump should know if a ball is snowconed like that then the player holds up the glove showing they caught it... blum should have just sat down on 2nd lol

Well, we've seen plays at the plate where the catcher tags the runner with the glove while the ball is in his other hand and the ump still calls the runner out. I guess they have a hard time distinguishing a large brown leather mitt and a pale white hand.

[Cannonball]

Outstanding hit by Bourn, and even after he tipped his hand.

[verse]

does anyone else find it strange 2 see a VY Titans jersey cheering at a stros game?

[BrooksBall]

does anyone else find it strange 2 see a VY Titans jersey cheering at a stros game?

Not at all, for obvious reasons.

What is strange is that a lineup as solid as that of the Astros is struggling to put up runs this season and hit in the clutch.

[verse]

Not at all, for obvious reasons.

What is strange is that a lineup as solid as that of the Astros is struggling to put up runs this season and hit in the clutch.

I know what ur saying, BB. VYs a houstonian. still, its kinda odd to me. anyway, as for our offense, it'll come around once our pitching sucks...

[Cannonball]

The other 3 home teams won today, let's make it 4 for 4.

[Cannonball]

The other 3 home teams won today, let's make it 4 for 4.
Wrong thread. Sorry.

[leroy420]

That's so dishonest from Spilborghs too. He obviously knew that he'd dropped it but did a first class job of jumping up with it in his hand and conning the refs

Every player in little league baseball, high school baseball, college baseball, softball, etc., etc. does the same exact thing. That would include you. No one gets up and says "well, I didn't really catch it." You let the umps make the call then you move on. The umps blew it...no one else is at fault.

[Surfguy]

Hell...the ref was saying the replay wasn't conclusive but when the player was shown on the ground after landing...the ball clearly wasn't in his glove and he reached for it grabbing it and holding it up. Coop said he saw it from his angle and it wasn't a catch.

But, since no ref was in position to see it, it's hard to argue about it. Coop is probably going to get fined. Good for him. I think he was just trying to spark something from his club more than anything. No way they are going to reverse it based on what Coop saw. lol

[cardpire]

So you believe teams are going to decide whether or not to claim a guy based on 1 game?


is there a better chance they decide whether or not to claim him after going 2-3, or if he didn't play that game at all?

[Major]

is there a better chance they decide whether or not to claim him after going 2-3, or if he didn't play that game at all?

Neither. No team is stupid enough to make a decision based on one baseball game. Yesterday's game would have had exactly no impact had he gone 0-4 or 4-4. The only impact would have been if he got hurt.

[cardpire]

Neither. No team is stupid enough to make a decision based on one baseball game. Yesterday's game would have had exactly no impact had he gone 0-4 or 4-4. The only impact would have been if he got hurt.


the astros made a decision based on one final preseason game whether woody williams would be one of their starting pitchers, or be cut.


eagerly awaiting your smartass reply about how that somehow isn't comparable, even though you are fully aware that it is and can't admit when you're wrong,

cardpire

[Major]

the astros made a decision based on one final preseason game whether woody williams would be one of their starting pitchers, or be cut.

No - actually they made it based on a year's worth of performances. The preseason (as a whole) confirmed what they were seeing. If he had been outstanding in 2007, then that same preseason performance this year wouldn't have gotten him cut. In other words, the decision wasn't made based on that one game.

Quintero going 2-4 in a game isn't going to cause any team to suddenly go from "we're going to pass on him on the waivers" to "let's grab him!"

[DOMINATOR]

cardpire you really need to stop basing your statements only on recent performances. look at a wider sample size. in other words stop being astros.com-ish

[cardpire]

No - actually they made it based on a year's worth of performances. The preseason (as a whole) confirmed what they were seeing. If he had been outstanding in 2007, then that same preseason performance this year wouldn't have gotten him cut. In other words, the decision wasn't made based on that one game.

Quintero going 2-4 in a game isn't going to cause any team to suddenly go from "we're going to pass on him on the waivers" to "let's grab him!"


if woody williams pitched 5 shutout innings in the final spring game, he would be one of our starting pitchers. period. this isn't my opinion, it's a fact. for the astros, they were willing to throw out every thing their eyes had seen up to that point with one decent performance by woodrow. therefore, the decision was absolutely, 100% based on that game. illogical? without a doubt, but that's the way of our astros.

now, can you make the argument that the astros are one of the stupid teams that you were referring to? absolutely, and i do agree that they are just that fickle.

[cardpire]

cardpire you really need to stop basing your statements only on recent performances. look at a wider sample size. in other words stop being astros.com-ish


which statements? ausmus has only been unable to perform as of late??

[MadMax]

So those of you who watched it on tv....did he drop it?? Is that the consensus? I was at the game, but couldn't see from where I was. I could tell the umpire wasn't in position to know, either. But the fans in the bullpen boxes erupted immediately...their response was so decisive, so quickly, that I was pretty sure he didn't catch it.

[BrooksBall]

So those of you who watched it on tv....did he drop it?? Is that the consensus? I was at the game, but couldn't see from where I was. I could tell the umpire wasn't in position to know, either. But the fans in the bullpen boxes erupted immediately...their response was so decisive, so quickly, that I was pretty sure he didn't catch it.

All you have to do is use Google to find the answer to that. Or, go to Chron.com or the Astros MLB website and read a few articles.

Yes, he clearly dropped it but the umps didn't get a clean look. Tough luck for us.

[T Rex]

Let's see if Chacon can make it 4 quality starts in a row. We need something positive in the worse way cause this team is looking lifeless right now.

[arkoe]

I hate my20... my feed's all jumpy.

[Uprising]

I hate it too....I can't see the game.

Btw...what's the score? Astros.com is freezing my FireFox....so is MLB.com. Something is wrong with my java.

[arkoe]

I hate it too....I can't see the game.

Btw...what's the score? Astros.com is freezing my FireFox....so is MLB.com. Something is wrong with my java.

2-0 Colorado, top of the 4th.

[DOMINATOR]

Jimenez is dealing

[cmpatel]

man bases loaded.....that was a big opportunity....atleast we got one run across....1 to 2 rockies are up....jimenez had trouble with walks this past inning for those of you that cant keep up with the game....

[BrooksBall]

How 'bout that Bork, eh? ;)

Yea, how 'bout that Bork? Stay tuned, more to come over the next few months.

[BrooksBall]

I like Kaz.

[The Cat]

The Stros sure seem to own Fuentes.

I like Kaz a lot too. His at-bats are all very competitive. Very patient and good at spoiling the borderline pitches that he can't take.

[Nick]

Can Valverde finally not allow a run in an appearence this year? Hell, he has zero margin for error right now (maybe that's how he wants it).

[BrooksBall]

The Stros sure seem to own Fuentes.

I like Kaz a lot too. His at-bats are all very competitive. Very patient and good at spoiling the borderline pitches that he can't take.

Yup, good eye and good contact hitter. Quick bat speed.

On another note, are we about to see Valverde?

[H-Town Info]

guess who's coming in the 9th...

[BrooksBall]

Who's nervous right now? Ha ha.

[ruddy]

Good inning by the good guys. Hope Valverde finish the job this time.

[BrooksBall]

Valverde needed to keep that last pitch to Helton in the zone.

[BrooksBall]

Not Valverde's fault there.

[Nick]

Setting up for another disaster?

[BrooksBall]

Setting up for another disaster?

The only clear mistake he made was the last pitch to Helton. Unfortunately, closers can't usually afford much more than 1 mistake.

[Nick]

The only clear mistake he made was the last pitch to Helton. Unfortunately, closers can't usually afford much more than 1 mistake.

That statement was made a ton for Lidge... hell, I was one of the guys making a lot of them.

The only difference was that Brad was coming off 2+ years of dominance... Valverde had 7 blown saves last year.

[BMoney]

Man, you don't know what a luxury it is to have a dependable closer until it's gone. Wait, is that a Cinderella song?

[Buck Turgidson]

By far the best action & command on his splitter Valverde's had this season. Threw some really nice pitches, especially to Helton & Holliday. Good sign.

[Nick]

By far the best action & command on his splitter Valverde's had this season. Threw some really nice pitches, especially to Helton & Holliday. Good sign.

Much better concentration and command. Now all he needs is the confidence back.

I'm not a fan of the antics after the save (hell, he was pumping his fists before Bourn even caught the ball). I'm more of a fan of "acting like he's done this before..." which for the "league leader" in saves last year, you'd expect that to be the case.

[Buck Turgidson]

The only clear mistake he made was the last pitch to Helton. Unfortunately, closers can't usually afford much more than 1 mistake.
How was that a mistake?

[Buck Turgidson]

I'm not a fan of the antics after the save (hell, he was pumping his fists before Bourn even caught the ball). I'm more of a fan of "acting like he's done this before..." which for the "league leader" in saves last year, you'd expect that to be the case.
Not a huge fan either, but everybody's different, and you can't make him into someone he's not. It's obvious he's not trying to show anybody up, just the way he is.

[rz04]

Great showing this game, even tho I am still really concerned about our pitching staff but hopefully this game will help our starting pitching/bullpen into getting back to pitching in a way that we know they are capable of.

I am really shocked at Tejada's productivity this season, with all the steroid and age controversy I would have expected him to be distracted and have a off year. But it is a contract season for him, lets just hope he can keep this up.

[BrooksBall]

How was that a mistake?

Two-run lead, nobody on base. Keep the ball in the zone. Make the batter do something with it. Don't walk the guy and put the tying run at the plate.

[johnmvp]

It's a scary feeling when I'm nervous to see my closer come onto the mound. He got in trouble but at least he got the save.

[BrooksBall]

It's a scary feeling when I'm nervous to see my closer come onto the mound. He got in trouble but at least he got the save.

I was nervous, too, but the reality is that fans of every team are always nervous in close situations, even if the closer is Rivera in his prime.

Of course, we were more nervous because of Valverde's start to the season. Hey, at least our closer isn't Joe Borowski.

[Buck Turgidson]

Two-run lead, nobody on base. Keep the ball in the zone. Make the batter do something with it. Don't walk the guy and put the tying run at the plate.
Yep, but he only missed by an inch or so. A bit overly critical, no?

[BrooksBall]

Yep, but he only missed by an inch or so. A bit overly critical, no?

Truth is, I was actually defending Valverde by saying the only thing he clearly did wrong was miss that pitch, which he did. That is not overly critical, just fact.

And, that inch or so is critical for a closer. That was a bad time to walk a batter. We had a two-run lead. We were better off making Helton hurt us than walking him and bringing the trying run to the plate. A closer needs to be able to get that pitch in the strike zone in that situation.

[Buck Turgidson]

Two-run lead, nobody on base. Keep the ball in the zone. Make the batter do something with it. Don't walk the guy and put the tying run at the plate.
Helton against Valverde: 6-9, 4BB, 0K Some guys just have your number.

Valverde pitched him about as well as he could. He made a good pitch. You're picking nits.

[BrooksBall]

Helton against Valverde: 6-9, 4BB, 0K Some guys just have your number.

Valverde pitched him about as well as he could. He made a good pitch. You're picking nits.

I totally disagree with you.

Good win today.

[hieuytran]

I'm not a fan of the antics after the save (hell, he was pumping his fists before Bourn even caught the ball). I'm more of a fan of "acting like he's done this before..." which for the "league leader" in saves last year, you'd expect that to be the case.


i think whats worse is mutombo wagging his finger after a block even when we havent secured the ball yet....if he wasnt on our team i would be so pissed

[leroy420]

Truth is, I was actually defending Valverde by saying the only thing he clearly did wrong was miss that pitch, which he did. That is not overly critical, just fact.

And, that inch or so is critical for a closer. That was a bad time to walk a batter. We had a two-run lead. We were better off making Helton hurt us than walking him and bringing the trying run to the plate. A closer needs to be able to get that pitch in the strike zone in that situation.

It was a good pitch that could have been called either way. At the knees on the outside of the plate against a guy who has basically owned him.

Either way, it was his best outing to this point. Still would love to see a 1-2-3 out of him.

Nice comeback win today. Hopefully this leads to bigger and better. Roy O going tomorrow against the Pads. We need for him to build on his last start because the 2nd game is Backe against Peavey...who has done nothing but be the best pitcher in the NL so far (3-0, 1.20 era, .9 WHIP).

[Nick]

i think whats worse is mutombo wagging his finger after a block even when we havent secured the ball yet....if he wasnt on our team i would be so pissed

Yes... but like Lidge, Mutombo has had an extended stretch of dominance before.

Valverde's antics remind me more of Jose Lima than they do Mutombo.

[Nick]

Not a huge fan either, but everybody's different, and you can't make him into someone he's not. It's obvious he's not trying to show anybody up, just the way he is.

I agree... he's not trying to show anybody up, and it is just the way he is.

I just also wish that his "dominance" was a little bit more extended and consistent over his entire career. I'd be a little less worried about his performance, and his antics, if it was.

[BrooksBall]

It was a good pitch that could have been called either way. At the knees on the outside of the plate against a guy who has basically owned him.

That last pitch to Helton was not even close. It was a clear ball. It looked to be about 6 inches off the plate.

Even though Helton has hit him well, Valverde still needs to get that pitch in the zone on a full count with a two-run lead and nobody on base. I don't know how anybody can argue that.

Regardless, I was making the point that Valverde did well today. Let's hope he strings a few more good outings together.

[cardpire]

Moehler, Cassel, or Nieve? who starts while wandy is out?

[Zac D]

Moehler, Cassel, or Nieve? who starts while wandy is out?

door number two

[Major]

Yes... but like Lidge, Mutombo has had an extended stretch of dominance before.

Valverde's antics remind me more of Jose Lima than they do Mutombo.

Before his 2006 implosion, Lidge had had 2 great years and one good one. Coming into this year, Valverde has had 3 great years and 1 bad one. And during his bad year, it seems as though he was pitching injured the first half (8.9 ERA), was out for a month or two, and then was as dominant as ever after (1.9 ERA). The injury is just a guess - I'm not sure what happened that year, but it would make sense. So I'm not sure Lidge's stretch of dominance was any more than Valverde's.

[cardpire]

door number two


yeah i just read that he's starting and byrdak is also up.

wish it wasn't under these circumstances, but i like that they are getting a shot early in the season.

[rocks_fan]

Was at the game today. As I told the lady in front of me who said, "Don't be so nervous", I was nervous in the 8th when I saw Valverde start warming up. Still though, it was a lot of fun. Some big hits (I'm really liking Matsui in the 2 hole now that he's healed his), Chacon pitched decently and Valverde, despite a yip here and there, pitched OK, From where I was sitting (down the 3rd base line) it looked like Valverde got squeezed on a pitch or two on the walk and there wasn't really much he could do about the dribbler base hit. Good game, good day.

[Nick]

Before his 2006 implosion, Lidge had had 2 great years and one good one. Coming into this year, Valverde has had 3 great years and 1 bad one. And during his bad year, it seems as though he was pitching injured the first half (8.9 ERA), was out for a month or two, and then was as dominant as ever after (1.9 ERA). The injury is just a guess - I'm not sure what happened that year, but it would make sense. So I'm not sure Lidge's stretch of dominance was any more than Valverde's.

Comparing Lidge, at his peak, to Valverde's good years is not even close. And while Valverde racked up the saves last year, 7 blown saves is still significant.

Also, Lidge had transferred that domiance to the playoffs in 2004 and 2005 (until Pujols/Podsednick)... which is a setting that even the most elite of closers will struggle with.

[Major]

Comparing Lidge, at his peak, to Valverde's good years is not even close.

Lets look at their best 3 numbers in each category:

Lidge's best ERAs: 1.90, 2.29, and 3.36 (oddly enough, last year)
Lidge's best WHIPs: 0.92, 1.15, 1.20
Lidge's best BAA: 0.174, 0.202, 0.219
Lidge's best K/IP: 1.67, 1.47, 1.38

Valverde's best ERAs: 2.15, 2.44, 2.66
Valverde's best WHIPs: 0.99, 1.07, 1.12
Valverde's best BAA: 0.137, 0.196, 0.211
Valverde's best K/IP: 1.42, 1.40, 1.22

Valverde was just as dominant a pitcher as Lidge when they are each at their best. Lidge got more K's and Valverde had better BAA's. ERAs and WHIPs were virtually a wash. In what respect is it "not even close"?


And while Valverde racked up the saves last year, 7 blown saves is still significant.

True. He had 47 saves and 7 blown saves (87% save %). In Lidge's most dominant year (2004), he had 29 saves and 4 blown saves (88% save %).


Also, Lidge had transferred that domiance to the playoffs in 2004 and 2005 (until Pujols/Podsednick)... which is a setting that even the most elite of closers will struggle with.

Since when do elite closers struggle in the playoffs? :confused: In the 2004 playoffs, Lidge had 3 saves and 1 blown save. In the 2005 playoffs, he had 3 saves, 1 blown save (and 3 losses). I don't think a 75% save percentage is unusual for elite closers in the playoffs.

[Nick]

Lets look at their best 3 numbers in each category:

Lidge's best ERAs: 1.90, 2.29, and 3.36 (oddly enough, last year)
Lidge's best WHIPs: 0.92, 1.15, 1.20
Lidge's best BAA: 0.174, 0.202, 0.219
Lidge's best K/IP: 1.67, 1.47, 1.38

Valverde's best ERAs: 2.15, 2.44, 2.66
Valverde's best WHIPs: 0.99, 1.07, 1.12
Valverde's best BAA: 0.137, 0.196, 0.211
Valverde's best K/IP: 1.42, 1.40, 1.22

Valverde was just as dominant a pitcher as Lidge when they are each at their best. Lidge got more K's and Valverde had better BAA's. ERAs and WHIPs were virtually a wash. In what respect is it "not even close"?

First of all, out of all three of those years.... Valverde was only the full time closer in one of them (last year). Hell, if you use simple numbers as a comparison, Octavio Dotel was just as dominant as anybody in baseball not named Pedro in 2001-02-03 as a pitcher... however, the comparison was their performance, at their peaks, as closers (which we all know is an entirely different ballgame than being the setup man).

I'd like to see Lidge's 2004 broken down to the point where he was named closer (after the Dotel-Beltran trade). IIRC, his numbers went up significantly across the board after he became a 9th inning only pitcher.

Also, out of his 4 blown saves in 2004... only 2 of them came when he was the closer (whereas he got only 1 save during that time as a setup man).

There is also the fact that not only were his K's better... but he had the best K/9IP ratio in the history of the league at the time.

Also, the fact that Lidge's dominance extended from half of 2004, a dominant post-season, then all of 2005 up till that post-season... whereas Valverde has been inconsistent since he was named the full time closer towards the end of 2005 (horrible 2006, good 2007, shaky 2008 thus far) is weighing in on the decision.