Dean: Who would you rather have in charge?

[basso]

Howard Dean, the blatant opportunist endorsing John Kerry. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23587-2004Mar25_2.html)

"The real issue is this, who would you rather have in charge of the defense of the United States of America, a group of people who never served a day overseas in their life, or a guy who served his country honorably and has three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star on the battlefields of Vietnam?"

John McCain has a Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, two Bronze Star Medals, a Purple Heart and the Distinguished Flying Cross.

[JonBainAramsey]

howard dean is douche

[SamFisher]

so you regret trashing Kerry's war record four years ago then and are saying he should have been in charge ahead of the miserable failure that has been GWB?

[Trader_Jorge]

McCain earned his medals, and then some. Kerry got three superficial wounds to the buttocks and left 'Nam on a technicality after 4 months after the weight of his own video camera starting slowing him down. He then returned to the US to trash the troops, lie about atrocities, and hurl his medals at the Capitol in protest.

Yeah, kind of a difference there.

[SamFisher]

^ mccain flew 30,000 feet above the fray and pushed a button to drop some napalm on villages. Then he went back to his cushy bunk hundreds of miles off the coast, probably watched a few movies and drank a beer.

Kerry was hunting hardened VC commandos down in the Jungle and blowing them away personally

Kind of a big difference there.

[Trader_Jorge]

Sam, are you attempting to diminish the role of the fighter pilots in the Navy with that comment? Are you suggesting they are not in harms way when they are in the air? How ridiculous. McCain was a POW for over 5 years and when offered the chance to leave after less than 1 year, declined it because the other POWs couldn't leave as well. Contract that to Kerry, who took advantage of a technicality (3 Purple Hearts and you get to leave), gamed the system with three superificial wounds and then got the hell out of there after a mere 4 months. Then he returned back to the US, lied about the soldiers, threw his medals at the Capitol, and severely undermined our military effort. These two circumstances are not even in the same league, Sam.

McCain is a hero in every sense of the word. Kerry is a fraud, and the voting public saw through his act.

[SamFisher]

^ wow, jorge thinks that wounded combat veterans are to be laughed at ..... very telling.

[Trader_Jorge]

Howard Dean, watch this video and tell me who the Patriot is and who the fraud is.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5N-1-g90bW0&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5N-1-g90bW0&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[bigtexxx]

^ mccain flew 30,000 feet above the fray and pushed a button to drop some napalm on villages. Then he went back to his cushy bunk hundreds of miles off the coast, probably watched a few movies and drank a beer.

Kerry was hunting hardened VC commandos down in the Jungle and blowing them away personally

Kind of a big difference there.

dumbest post ever

[basso]

^ mccain flew 30,000 feet above the fray and pushed a button to drop some napalm on villages. Then he went back to his cushy bunk hundreds of miles off the coast, probably watched a few movies and drank a beer.

Kerry was hunting hardened VC commandos down in the Jungle and blowing them away personally

Kind of a big difference there.

remarkable post sam. in nutroots world, i guess pilots are cowards, unless of course, they're flying planes into buildings, and then they exhibit true

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/03/09/image679165x.jpg

courage.

[SamFisher]

remarkable post sam. in nutroots world, i guess pilots are cowards, unless of course, they're flying planes into buildings, and then they exhibit true

courage.

Like this portrait of courage from your alternate universe:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc27.gif

[Trader_Jorge]

And Sam waves the white flag in surrender after having to resort to the Bush critique. I guess McCain is proving to be too honorable for the libs to poke holes in... HO HO HO the libs are screwed in November...

[SamFisher]

And Sam waves the white flag in surrender after having to resort to the Bush critique. I guess McCain is proving to be too honorable for the libs to poke holes in... HO HO HO the libs are screwed in November...

I'm not trying to poke holes in anything, i'm simply exploring your newfound respect for vietnam veterans which was absent a few years ago.

[Trader_Jorge]

I have always supported Vietnam Vets. Just not sad sack self-promoters and dishonest cheats like John Forbes Kerry. It was you, Sam who did not support Vietnam Vets four years ago when you lied about and smeared the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. And of course your CHICKENS came home to ROOST when Bush defeated Kerry for the Presidency. Oops.

[IROC it]

Amazing that I don't have to read any lip in this thread.


I love the ignore list's function.







Remember kids, Clinton was literally impeached!
McCain '08!

[KingCheetah]

Repub vets = good

Dem vets = bad

K.I.S.S.

[SamFisher]

I hate vietnam vets!

Sorry Jorge but you and the rest of the 3 stooges (bassmo and bigshemppp) devoted several months of your lives attempting to tarnish a decorated Vietnam war hero. It's so incredibly well-documented that I don't need to bring it up.

Mind you, this came after bassmo repeatedly declared that he was "not questioning kerry's war record" and assured us he would never do such a thing.

IN any event - owing to this, you are hereby

COLLATERALLY ESTOPPED

from arguing any sort of war-hero glory. You sh-t on one, you have unclean hands. Accordingly, your flag waving privileges have been revoked. By me.
OH - P.S.

Somebody please quote me so that IROC it's devastating use of the ignore list function - which he has publicly noted, so as to make a pointed critique of me - is thwarted.

IROC it, when you read this, know that a mere high school education is not enough to foil me, silly knave.

[KingCheetah]

Sorry Jorge but you and the rest of the 3 stooges (bassmo and bigshemppp) devoted several months of your lives attempting to tarnish a decorated Vietnam war hero. It's so incredibly well-documented that I don't need to bring it up.

Mind you, this came after bassmo repeatedly declared that he was "not questioning kerry's war record" and assured us he would never do such a thing.

IN any event - owing to this, you are hereby

COLLATERALLY ESTOPPED

from arguing any sort of war-hero glory. You sh-t on one, you have unclean hands. Accordingly, your flag waving privileges have been revoked. By me.
OH - P.S.

Somebody please quote me so that IROC it's devastating use of the ignore list function - which he has publicly noted, so as to make a pointed critique of me - is thwarted.

IROC it, when you read this, know that a mere high school education is not enough to foil me, silly knave.

Ig = Nore.

[IROC it]

.....

[SamFisher]

^ mission accomplished!

KingCheater, you are headed for an ignore list too I fear. Maybe when you get here I will carve a gun out of a bar of soap and then we will overpower the guards and escape this hellish prison.

[KingCheetah]

^ mission accomplished!

KingCheater, you are headed for an ignore list too I fear. Maybe when you get here I will carve a gun out of a bar of soap and then we will overpower the guards and escape this hellish prison.

John F'ing McCain wouldn't hide behind an ignore list.

[No Worries]

John McCain has a Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, two Bronze Star Medals, a Purple Heart and the Distinguished Flying Cross.
... and an illegitimate black child ... and senior moments ... and ...

[SamFisher]

IROC it - your attempt to edit away my getting your goat will not bury the events of the past - for posterity I display IROC it's pre-edited post:

College grad w/2 degrees, putz.

Nice use of a video game character name though. Shows your age.


Shameful tactics there, KingCheater.

[Refman]

This thread has been very, very amusing.

Sam...these have been your best posts ever. I have actually enjoyed watching you trash T_J. Oh, and bonus points for the collateral estoppel post. To clarify, I am not trying to be snarky or backhanded in any way. This has been fun to read.

To the issue at hand. John Kerry was wounded in action. He deserved to come home. He was there, and he served. Like many, he probably would have strongly preferred to be elsewhere. We will never know how John Kerry would have reacted had he been a POW. I would like to think that he would have shown the type of resolve that McCain showed.

John McCain is a war hero in his own right. His actions as a POW and aboard an attacked carrier are without question acts of bravery. We do not know how he would have reacted had he been shot in the field of combat and sent home.

I do not like John Kerry's actions upon him arriving home. That being said, I was not alive during Vietnam, and do not know what it would have been like to come hom from combat to the turmoil that existed. To use this to diminish his service for political gain is...disturbing at best.

[KingCheetah]

IROC it - your attempt to edit away my getting your goat will not bury the events of the past - for posterity I display IROC it's pre-edited post:

John F'ing McCain wouldn't hide behind an edit.

[basso]

This thread has been very, very amusing.

Sam...these have been your best posts ever. I have actually enjoyed watching you trash T_J. Oh, and bonus points for the collateral estoppel post. To clarify, I am not trying to be snarky or backhanded in any way. This has been fun to read.

To the issue at hand. John Kerry was wounded in action. He deserved to come home. He was there, and he served. Like many, he probably would have strongly preferred to be elsewhere. We will never know how John Kerry would have reacted had he been a POW. I would like to think that he would have shown the type of resolve that McCain showed.

John McCain is a war hero in his own right. His actions as a POW and aboard an attacked carrier are without question acts of bravery. We do not know how he would have reacted had he been shot in the field of combat and sent home.

I do not like John Kerry's actions upon him arriving home. That being said, I was not alive during Vietnam, and do not know what it would have been like to come hom from combat to the turmoil that existed. To use this to diminish his service for political gain is...disturbing at best.

i have never diminished his service. i have countless times diminished his record upon his return.

[CaseyH]

a decorated Vietnam war hero.
I wouldn;t go that far.

[rimrocker]

i have never diminished his service. i have countless times diminished his record upon his return.

Liar. You questioned his service, his records, and his medals... if not overtly, then by posting articles that did while you cleverly refrained from voicing anything but snide little comments that give your conscience plausible deniability.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=83271&page=1&pp=20&highlight=kerry+vietnam

There are other search results, but it's too depressing to read through them just to further expose your ridiculousness.

[Deckard]

I have always supported Vietnam Vets. Just not sad sack self-promoters and dishonest cheats like John Forbes Kerry. It was you, Sam who did not support Vietnam Vets four years ago when you lied about and smeared the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. And of course your CHICKENS came home to ROOST when Bush defeated Kerry for the Presidency. Oops.
You dismissed the veterans right in this forum, Trader_J.


Example: (thread started by glynch)

Bush to Cut Pay for Troops In Iraq due to Budget.

(Trader_J is in italics)

This is a very poorly worded thread title. There is no pay cut. There is a potential failure to increase pay. Not a pay cut. Get it straight.

I support the troops with every ounce of my being. I also support free labor markets in which people can choose their job and the relevant pay scale that accompanies it.



Wrong. Currently, the soldiers are enjoying an increase in both "imminent danger pay" and "family separation allowances". The Department of Defense wants these increases to stop once the current budget expires on the 30th of September, meaning the soldiers pay will be cut come the 30th of September.

Nope. If I work all year, then get a bonus, then my pay returns to my salaried amount, I have not suffered a pay cut, as you so foolishly imply.



Trader_J, it IS a pay cut. And this is far from an ordinary job in "the free labor markets". You know that... just being contentious? We want these people to STAY in the military. We want to make sure people VOLUNTEER for service. They are laying their lives on the line for us, whether we agree on the politics of it or not. I think they are not paid enough as it is. Many of them have families in sub-standard housing who are barely scrapping by.

Again, this is not the time to do something like this... we should be increasing their compensation, if anything.

The cuts were set to expire on September 30. This pay increase was temporary in nature, much like a bonus payment. Their pay is not being cut, it is being restored to its steady-state level.

I believe in the labor market to set fair and just wages. When I hear that certain segments of society are underpaid (i.e. teachers), it makes me want to vomit. I trust the forces of supply and demand to set the marginal benefit contributed to society by the contributor equal to the marginal revenue paid to the contributor.



How can President Bush say that he is 100% behind the troops when he cuts tough duty bonuses, benefits and health care for soldiers?



Why does it make you want to vomit? I thought you supported free labor markets. Wouldn't that mean that teachers are simply being paid what the market dictates?

Did you seriously miss the point that badly? If so:

Uh...that's exactly my point. They are not underpaid, they are justly paid. That's why I want to vomit, because people can't see this.

How you misinterpreted that, I'll never know, RM95. Read closer before posting.



So this looks to be today's "outrage" post from the band of merry liberals. Crying foul over a bonus not getting renewed.

Prediction for tomorrow: Either glynch, bj, macnugget, or maybe rimbaud will start a thread that discredits either President Bush, reports bad news from Iraq, or cries about the economy. Ten minutes later, enter the "me-too" content-lacking liberal followers, who include such gems as rm95, timing, swtsig, underoverup, et al. They will contribute rich content comprised of one-line posts and partial sentences. If there's any sort of race issue at hand, rocket river may serenede us with one of his haikus. Then a post from the right comes in and the liberals swarm, barraging the right with insults, and claims of "do you actually BELIEVE that????".

Just another day on the bbs...




uh no. The Pentagon is recommending this, and the administration has referred all questions to the Pentagon report. The President has control over the Pentagon.

Also, Trader....this is a paycut. I was in the Army and there are clearly defined payscales. This is not bonus pay. This is duty pay for a serious amount of increased work and hardship...and is often requested by soldiers because the payscale is very well defined. The equivalent is to tell a shift worker that overtime pay is no longer 1.5x, but 1.0x, and then to tell them that they must keep working overtime.

That is a paycut.

I cannot believe you would call that a bonus. That is total lack of respect for the increased duty and hardship required of being in the field like that.


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=63054&page=1&pp=20&highlight=veterans


Interesting thread and very educational regarding Trader_J's view of the military and how they should be paid. Appalling, but worth reading all of it. I left out a lot of outrage from various members and goofy replies from the Bobbsey Twins.




Trim Bush.

[Refman]

i have never diminished his service. i have countless times diminished his record upon his return.
I recall something about guilty dogs and barking. Hmmm...

I never said that YOU did, basso. T_J, OOTH, does so habitually every time this comes up.

However, reading my post must have raised your guilty conscience. Thanks for coming clean. ;)

[Trader_Jorge]

So Refman, do you think John Kerry did not game the system with his abbreviated tour of duty and his departure after putting in for 3 superficial wounds? Is that not taking advantage of a technicality? Clearly he was able to continue serving his country abroad, but chose not to...

[GladiatoRowdy]

So Refman, do you think John Kerry did not game the system with his abbreviated tour of duty and his departure after putting in for 3 superficial wounds? Is that not taking advantage of a technicality? Clearly he was able to continue serving his country abroad, but chose not to...

Not as much as his opponent in that election gamed the system in getting an appointment to the "Champagne Division" of the Air National Guard, then not showing up for what little duty was expected of him for at least a year.

John Kerry was wounded in battle three times and no matter how superficial some people claim the wounds were, that is a hard fact. The only thing that ever wounded GWB were the football players who ran over him while he was cheerleading on the sidelines at Yale, much like he has done his entire life.

[Trader_Jorge]

When you have to bring up Bush in response to a question about Kerry, then you just can't mount a defense. Or you concede the point. You pick. I mean, are the libs able to answer a single political question without bringing up Bush? No wonder they can't win a Presidential election and are in line to lose another... telling...

[Refman]

So Refman, do you think John Kerry did not game the system with his abbreviated tour of duty and his departure after putting in for 3 superficial wounds? Is that not taking advantage of a technicality? Clearly he was able to continue serving his country abroad, but chose not to...
Let me shoot you in the leg and then tell me how superficial it is. :rolleyes:

[rimrocker]

Let me shoot you in the leg and then tell me how superficial it is. :rolleyes:

I have a cop friend. He always says the caliber and location don't matter... if you get shot, you're having a bad day.

[Refman]

I have a cop friend. He always says the caliber and location don't matter... if you get shot, you're having a bad day.
That is actually my point exactly.

T_J wants to complain that Kerry suffered a "superficial" wound (3 of them actually). My point is that if it happened to T_J, he probably wouldn't think it was so damned superficial.

[Invisible Fan]

I still don't get how the heck one can get injured randomly three different times and be called a fraud.

[FranchiseBlade]

So Refman, do you think John Kerry did not game the system with his abbreviated tour of duty and his departure after putting in for 3 superficial wounds? Is that not taking advantage of a technicality? Clearly he was able to continue serving his country abroad, but chose not to...
You are insulting Vietnam war vets. You aren't just insulting Kerry, you are insulting his officers and superiors who recommended him, and approved him for those medals, and staked their job and reputation as servicemen on their statements.

You should apologize immediately for your slander of the brave heroes who gave witness to and verified Kerry's actions in Vietnam.

You are accusing those men of lying, and dishonorable conduct while they were serving in the field of battle.

[peleincubus]

This thread has been very, very amusing.

Sam...these have been your best posts ever. I have actually enjoyed watching you trash T_J. Oh, and bonus points for the collateral estoppel post. To clarify, I am not trying to be snarky or backhanded in any way. This has been fun to read.

To the issue at hand. John Kerry was wounded in action. He deserved to come home. He was there, and he served. Like many, he probably would have strongly preferred to be elsewhere. We will never know how John Kerry would have reacted had he been a POW. I would like to think that he would have shown the type of resolve that McCain showed.

John McCain is a war hero in his own right. His actions as a POW and aboard an attacked carrier are without question acts of bravery. We do not know how he would have reacted had he been shot in the field of combat and sent home.

I do not like John Kerry's actions upon him arriving home. That being said, I was not alive during Vietnam, and do not know what it would have been like to come hom from combat to the turmoil that existed. To use this to diminish his service for political gain is...disturbing at best.

its quite possible that you could not have said it better then that. you know a logical explanation. those seem to be harder to get around here when for some people its sooo clearly bad if its a republican or for another always clearly bad if its a democrat.

in the near future im going to be looking for a forum like this that people can discuss things with a little less bias. meaning more stuff like this.

[pgabriel]

It would seem to me that being shot down while flying us jets by some village warriors shouldn't be something to hang your hat on. just saying

[Refman]

It would seem to me that being shot down while flying us jets by some village warriors shouldn't be something to hang your hat on. just saying
No...but being a POW for five years, enduring torture and maintaining resolve to not divulge the information your captors seek is pretty damned impressive.

Landing on an aircraft carrier that is under attack, catching fire, putting yourself out on the way to help in the rescue effort...pretty impressive as well.

[FranchiseBlade]

It would seem to me that being shot down while flying us jets by some village warriors shouldn't be something to hang your hat on. just saying
I don't think anyone sould belittle McCain's record as a war hero. He was pilot, and faced danger any time he flew over enemy territory. That is demonstrated from the fact that he was shot down, and spent all that time as a POW.

That being said, TJ's comments about Kerry, Kerry's superiors in the Navy, and pay cuts for the troops show exactly how little he actually cares about the troops... Or it would if he were serious about any of this.

[SamFisher]

Interesting to see what the right wing-nuts say about mccain in capitivity.

If he were a democrat, the three stooges would be shouting these loopy stories from the rooftops

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=60020

[KingCheetah]

That is actually my point exactly.

T_J wants to complain that Kerry suffered a "superficial" wound (3 of them actually). My point is that if it happened to T_J, he probably wouldn't think it was so damned superficial.

Based Trader's thread on the prospects of a possible endoscopy -- i'm quite sure he would have returned to Vietnam after 4 possibly 5 'superficial' bullet and/ or shrapnel wounds.

You know, it's only a flesh wound.

[Trader_Jorge]

It would seem to me that being shot down while flying us jets by some village warriors shouldn't be something to hang your hat on. just saying
You are a disgrace. To insult a true war hero who was giving it his all for our nation's benefit like this is the height of stupidity. It's just ignorant. Typical Obama supporter...

[Trader_Jorge]

Let me shoot you in the leg and then tell me how superficial it is.

Learn the facts -- Kerry was wounded by shrapnel. How can you try to argue something when you don't even know the facts? That's an interesting approach... :confused:

[Apollo Creed]

LMAO. It's like you're trying to define hypocrisy through a 2 post series.

[Trader_Jorge]

LMAO. It's like you're trying to define hypocrisy through a 2 post series.

Dude, you should seriously take a step back after your Mormon-bashing to learn what hypocrisy really is. Typical Obama supporter...

[Apollo Creed]

Dude, you should seriously take a step back after your Mormon-bashing to learn what hypocrisy really is. Typical Obama supporter...

Do you have "Typical Obama supporter..." hotkeyed or do you actually type it out everytime? :D

[FranchiseBlade]

Learn the facts -- Kerry was wounded by shrapnel. How can you try to argue something when you don't even know the facts? That's an interesting approach... :confused:
Shrapnel actually kills more soldiers than bullets, so for you to try and belittle his wound makes no sense.

For you to criticize others for their support of the troop when your support has been shown time and time again to be incredibly lacking.

The way you've insulted an entire command chain and accused them of conspiring to falsify reports, and some allow another soldier(John Kerry) to cheat the armed forces is disgraceful. Even though you wouldn't mean an apology, I'm surprised you haven't thrown out one just to try and deflect some of the shame.

[pgabriel]

its funny to watch tj prop up mccain's record and disgrace kerry's.

[pgabriel]

look, no one question's mccain's comment to his country. its just if he is going to play his vietnam card than he throws it out there for questioning. i think getting shot down was a lot rarer event than you guys realize.

[Trader_Jorge]

look, no one question's mccain's comment to his country. its just if he is going to play his vietnam card than he throws it out there for questioning. i think getting shot down was a lot rarer event than you guys realize.
So where was Barack during the time that McCain was putting his life on the line for the United States in 'Nam? Oh that's right, in Jakarta, Indonesia, with his step-father Lolo Soetoro and his atheist mother, attending a Muslim school. Might not be in the best interest of the obama camp to attack McCain's military record... especially given the fact that obama's only military experiences have come in his black militant 'church'...

[pgabriel]

So where was Barack during the time that McCain was putting his life on the line for the United States in 'Nam? Oh that's right, in Jakarta, Indonesia, with his step-father Lolo Soetoro and his atheist mother, attending a Muslim school. Might not be in the best interest of the obama camp to attack McCain's military record... especially given the fact that obama's only military experiences have come in his black militant 'church'...


yes because barrack was old enough to serve in vietnam :rolleyes:

you also do realize that jeremiah wright was a marine? as usual your arguments hold no water

[Trader_Jorge]

pgabs, you are trying to imply that McCain was somehow inadequate for being shot down in Vietnam. And you are defending a racist, bigot, and America-hating anti-semite (Wright). And your candidate didn't serve. And you say my arguments hold no water? Your starting role on the mental junior varsity is secure.

[pgabriel]

pgabs, you are trying to imply that McCain was somehow inadequate for being shot down in Vietnam. And you are defending a racist, bigot, and America-hating anti-semite (Wright). And your candidate didn't serve. And you say my arguments hold no water? Your starting role on the mental junior varsity is secure.

I'm not questioning anyone's commitment to this country. your argument holds no water because of your comments about kerry. you're so funny, you think you can play mccarthy behind your keyboard and decide who's more american than the next person. march on you internet fighting marine. LOL

[Trader_Jorge]

You tell me who is more American...

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5N-1-g90bW0&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5N-1-g90bW0&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[GladiatoRowdy]

When you have to bring up Bush in response to a question about Kerry, then you just can't mount a defense. Or you concede the point. You pick. I mean, are the libs able to answer a single political question without bringing up Bush? No wonder they can't win a Presidential election and are in line to lose another... telling...

When talking about Kerry (the point that YOU brought up), the appropriate response is to talk about Bush.

Or is Kerry running this year and just hasn't gotten any press?

Try again, rookie.

[GladiatoRowdy]

You are a disgrace. To insult a true war hero who was giving it his all for our nation's benefit like this is the height of stupidity. It's just ignorant. Typical Obama supporter...

You are a disgrace. To insult a true war hero (Kerry) who was giving it his all for our nation's benefit like this is the height of stupidity. It's just ignorant. Typical Bush supporter...