CNN Blows up Republican claims

[Dreamshake]

Ok last one of these...I promise.

CNN sent out a guy to check the facts of the matter both by Democrats and Republicans

you know 19,000. 15,000 in 96. ect ect ect.

Here is what is fact.

1. 19,000 votes double voted for president in W Palm Beach. But on lower level tickets where the layout was different. Only 65 double votes occured, and 67 for another position occured.

2. The 15,000 double votes in 96 that the republicans keep saying keeps in standing the 19,000 double votes this year is a true figure. If you add people who didnt vote for a president at all in 96. Do the same for 00 and you get almost 30,000 thrown out votes.

3. On a chart showing the number of registered independant and reformist voters across FL. The number of votes pretty much reflect the number of register (Buchanan) voters. Except in on county. W Palm Beach where it was waaaaaaay off the chart.

4. A statistical professor out of California (cant remember which university exactly) states that the chance of Buchanan legitimately recieving that many votes is approximately 1:1,000,000,000,000. Or put easier. 1 in 1 trillion.

5. Yes Buchanan recieved 9,000 votes in 96 in W Palm Beach in 96. That was running as a republican.

6. The figure that Republicans keep saying that the reason Buchanans vote count was so high was due to a 110% increase in registered Reformist voters. Not true, that figure stands true for all non Republican, Democratic registries. Green patry, Independants, Reformists, Socialist, Workers, ect, ect, ect.

7. The claim that No one complained till after the fact of the outcome is also not true. There are registered complaints from as early as 8:00 the morning of the election.

8. The Illinois Ballot that Karl Rove showed the media as being the same as the one in W Palm Beach wasnt the same. Illinois Ballot had Presidents listed on one side of the page on their own page.

This was simply a fact finding mission. Not done on a republican or democratic level.


So, whos running on the Honesty, and Integrity ticket?


Sorry, but I found this piece to be absolutely amamzing.

Thoughts.

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"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

[This message has been edited by Dreamshake (edited November 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dreamshake (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Achebe]

Interesting Dreamshake.

I find it laughable that the Republicans are now seeking an injunction against a hand vote (that includes the 19,000 votes). What a joke...

It's a democracy, if they win New Mexico... great for them. Don't we want to know who actually won?

I was a cashier as a kid. if I was a $100.00 off, I didn't get to leave with the extra money, there was a recount. Just b/c we like the numbers doesn't mean that they're fair. To think otherwise seems to be somewhat unpatriotic, IMO.

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"Everyone I know has a big but...

come on Simone, let's talk about your but."

[DUDE]

Interestingly enough, FoxNews just reported that in Duval county, where Bush won 60%, there was some 22,000 votes thrown out. So they might want a manual recount there.
We kept talking about opening a can of worms, and here it is people. It is getting ugly.

Where will it stop? Will we manual recount any county in the US that had ballots thrown out in order to determine 'how' a person 'intended' to vote?

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

[Rocketman95]

DUDE, who cares? Wouldn't it be beneficial for either candidate to go into their administration with the minimal amount of questions about how they won the election?

The public may be sick of this, but I guarantee you Bush will be able to get more done if it comes out after all these hand recounts that he won the election rather than there be a cloud over it.

Are you upset about possible recounts in Iowa and Wisconsin, neither of which are anywhere as close as Florida was? I'm not.

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"He was under more balls than a midget hooker."-Bobby Hill

visit www.swirve.com (http://www.swirve.com)

[SpaceCity]

If it takes every county in this country to recount by hand then that's what they should do. Sure it sucks but maybe that will encourage them to fix the problem rather than ignoring it. When an election is this close you can't just ignore the people's voice. When the eelction of a president is decided only by a couple hundred votes out of 101 million, that's a problem.

If they want us to actually beleive that every vote counts then they better count every vote.

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RocketFuel is dead!

[DUDE]

Rocketman,
I dont understand why you asked me 'Who Cares?'

Apparently 100 million people do. All I was trying to tell people were that if we manually recount Democratic counties, you can bet Bush will want to manually recount his counties.
You said it would be beneficial for hand counts so the winner of the presidency has more validity to his post. What I ASKED was where do we stop? If you recount Gores stronghold, you have to recount Bush's stronghold. If you dont that is hypocritical.
I am not upset about recounting. I think we ALREADY recounted Florida and should stop there. But you have to admit that if Gore wants to recount in counties he is strong in, then Bush will want to recount HIS stronghold.
If one side wants a recount, doesnt the other side have a right to do the same? If so then this thing will drag on forever. In another five or six states. It doesnt matter that Wisconsin, or Iowa werent as close as Florida. What DOES matter is that without those other close ones Gore wont win the Presidency with Florida. CNN had a thing were both could end up with 269.
Interestingly enough, New Mexico so far has a difference of 17 votes state wide. Now that is close! LOL

I think the lawsuit the Republicans trying to stop the manual recount will be turned down but if ONE side gets a hand count, doesnt the other side deserve one also? THIS is the can of worms I am talking about. It wont stop.

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

[Dreamshake]

Ok I think its time to put away CNN. I had a dream last night. In my Dream after the recount by FL officails Bush had won by one vote in FL. Then a Judge took a look at the Buchanan vote and awarded 2,0000 votes to Gore. But Bush recieved 1,999 more overseas votes.

It may be time to get off the news wire for a bit.

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"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

[DUDE]

One more thing... How do you tell Who a person INTENDED to vote for? That is purely subjective. The recount was fair. It showed NO bias either way. A Hand count, obviously, can and will show bias.
"hmmmm..... doesnt this look like a divot on this ballot?...... mark one for Gore"
That is how stupid it will be.

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

[Dreamshake]

Oh, and If Bush does want a recount in his Strong holds then He'd be the worlds greatest hypocrite, since hes lashing out at democrats for doing the same thing, in a county were there were obvious problems.

And Id have no problems if Bush wanted one anyways. Get it right, its as simple as that.

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"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

[Major]

Interestingly enough, FoxNews just reported that in Duval county, where Bush won 60%, there was some 22,000 votes thrown out. So they might want a manual recount there. We kept talking about opening a can of worms, and here it is people. It is getting ugly.

What exactly is ugly about this? If this is an issue, there SHOULD be a recount, whether it benefits Gore or Bush.

Who cares if takes longer? Do we want a quick and easy process, or do we want a thorough and accurate one? What can of worms are we opening? Making sure things are right? How terrible! http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif


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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

[outlaw]

The Republicans have requested a machine recount of Palm Beach.

I don't see the problem of recounts since we're all waiting until the 17th for the absentee ballots anyway.

[DUDE]

How would he be a hypocrite?
Are you telling me if you had more votes currently in Florida and your opponent wanted to Hand count HIS strongholds, that you would just sit back and take that final vote as the end? Come on, that is crazy. You would want to recount YOUR counties, such as Duval county, etc..

However, if Gore loses Wisconsin, Iowa, and Bush wins Oregon and New Mexico, Gore can carry Florida and they will be tied. The more we Hand Count, the more we ask human beings to interpret 'HOW someone INTENDED to vote'. That is absurd.
You do it in the four Gore counties in Florida, you have to do it in Bush counties, then it might move to Wisconsin, etc..

All things have RULES. People should understand that if you give 'special' attention to a few counties ballots, then you HAVE to do it to the entire country. So, hell, let's hand count the entire country to get the fair, correct vote. Is that what everyone wants?

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

[DUDE]

Shanna
The ugly part is that Gore will want something Hand counted. Then Bush will. Then Gore again. Then Bush, gore, bush....

When you go into a Game, you know the rules. You know that if the basketball goes THRU the net you get points. When you go into an election, you know the rules. The hole punch needs to be completely Punched out. NOW, we are going to interpret what people 'meant' to vote for.

All you people seem to care about are the 19,000 ballots in Palm Beach.. Why dont you care about the 22,000 in Duval? or maybe the other millions nationwide? The MORE we drag this thing on, the less legitimacy the next president will have, whether that is Gore or Bush.
The final count should be the Recount amount PLUS the absentee vote. The winner should be that person. I dont care who that is. yes, I would rather have Bush, but You cant honestly tell me that what is happening is GOOD for the nation.

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

[Major]

When you go into a Game, you know the rules. You know that if the basketball goes THRU the net you get points. When you go into an election, you know the rules. The hole punch needs to be completely Punched out. NOW, we are going to interpret what people 'meant' to vote for.

When you go into a game, the stakes aren't high -- oh no, you lost a game! When you elect a President, they are. Even in the NFL, they have instituted instant replay to make sure and look at questionable situations over again. Why? To make sure they get it right and the correct team wins.

All you people seem to care about are the 19,000 ballots in Palm Beach.. Why dont you care about the 22,000 in Duval?

Who said we don't? If Bush wants to push that, it's just as legitimate. By the way, did they use an illegal & confusing ballot in Duval?

The MORE we drag this thing on, the less legitimacy the next president will have, whether that is Gore or Bush.

How exactly does answering questions and clarifying every issue result in LESS legitimacy? If Bush wins now, 50 million people are going to claim he won by technicality. If Bush wins after all these issues are resolved, everyone knows he deserved the win. How does that reduce his legitimacy?

You don't solve things by ignoring problems -- you address them and come up with a solution, whatever that may be.




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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

[DUDE]

If you think that this is the first time mistakes were made, and people were confused you are wrong. Mistakes happen, people are confused.
My question is HOW can you tell the intent of a person? There is a 'sunlight' test that is going to be used in the hand count. That means they will hold the ballot up to the light and if light comes thru any part of the hole, that candidate gets that vote. That is amazingly STUPID.
You ask about the ballot, I think that has been answered. It was MADE by a democrat, it was okayed by a Democrat and republican. That is like agreeing to play to 21 in a basketball game, yet when your opponent reaches 21, 'By The Rules YOu Agreed With', you claim your team was confused.

And no matter who wins, he will have a tainted presidency. The 50 million people plus the ones getting worked up by Jesse Jackson and the rest in Florida will not feel Bush won the presidency. And the 50 million that voted for Bush will feel the same way if Gore wins since the Recount came back with a Bush lead still.

There has to be a distinct ending, and Hand Counting and trying to 'interpret' a confused voters ballot surely not the way to go. I understand a few disagree with me here, but you are taking the decision OUT of the hands of the voters that Voted correctly and placing the fates of the two into peoples' INTERPRETATIONS. That is wrong.

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

[mrpaige]

So if they have a revote, how many months will it take. I assume that you can't use the same ballot since it is "illegal". So, they have to redesign the ballot, get all the approvals from everyone on both sides that the ballot is okay. Probably have to ask the court whether the ballot is "legal" this time or not. And then the ballots have to be sent off to be printed. Then have a new election (and there has to be plenty of lead time on the election or people will complain that it isn't fair because they didn't know when the election was or couldn't make arrangements to get there in such a short time, plus it does take time to set up an election. There are many things involved) and then revote.

Heck, we could be talking about May before they finally got around to having the revote.

But then what happens on December 18th when, as required by law, the electors gather to cast their vote for President? Since the Florida results would not be certified, their electors would not be present. No one would have a majority of electoral votes, and the House of Representatives would then decide who is the President.

Would having the House choose the next President make everyone feel better?

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Houston Sports Board (http://www.houstonsportsboard.com)
The Anti-Bud Adams Page (http://www.antibud.com)

[outlaw]

OK, i give up. I am recusing myself from reading or writing any more posts on this subject. In fact I am imposing a personal media lackout about the election. No CNN, no FNC, no MSNBC, no SNL. I just want my normal life back!

I apologize to anyone whom I may have offended in this forum with regards to this issue.

[TheFreak]

Yep, Dreamshake seems about as intent on finding facts as OJ Simpson is on finding his wife's killers on the golf course.

Funny some are trying to put more trust in "hand recounts" by human beings when half the human beings in this country are for Gore and half for Bush!

Except in West Palm Beach, where most are for Gore...and can't read the ballot to begin with. And these are the people who are doing the recount!

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People like to slam Bush's education record, but at least Texans know how to punch holes.

[Achebe]

Clutch,

Funny how you completely ignore the fact that we live in a democracy (j/k).

I realize that we all seem to have a vested interest in this... but I think it's one of my republican intuitions (though i'm probably a moderate demo) that the government should do their job accurately. That's all I ask for. Don't you agree? If Buchanan, Bush, Nader or Gore wins is not the issue.

What is the issue, IMO, is that we finally have an election close enough to expose the pure incompetence of some of our local governments.

This little civics lesson is pushing my hand on one thing. Previously I didn't care about the electoral college... that's b/c I never thought that it would ever be an issue (kind of like how you ignore a silly antiquated law until some fool tries to enforce it). But right now, I can't even come up w/ a plausible argument for the electoral college. If I disagree with an issue, I try my dabnabbitest to play devil's advocate, merely to see if there are any reasons for/against an issue. I can't come up w/ any reasons right now to support the electoral college.

Anyone?

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"Everyone I know has a big but...

come on Simone, let's talk about your but."

[Major]

Funny that shanna implies doubt that the Duval ballot is illegal like the one in Palm Beach, when according to the Florida Secretary of State the Palm Beach ballot is legal

Clutch,

Have you heard anyone claim that the Duval ballot is illegal? I'm not going to assume it is just because. However, plenty of people, ranging from constitutional lawyers to law students to regular citizens believe the Florida ballot may be illegal. Do you see a bit of a difference there?

If the Duval ballot is illegal, then Bush should be protesting it. He's not. He is filing lawsuits, challenging New Mexico, Wisconsin, Oregon, and Iowa -- all of which I have no problem with -- but he's not challenging Duval. What does that tell you about the Duval ballots?

Funny that Gore wants a hand-recount in 4 of the predominantly democratic areas knowing history says the amount of votes generally go up, thus Gore gets more votes. 1 district difference X 4 and Gore wins...

Those four counties also had serious issues on election day with their balloting process. There are plenty of other predominantly democratic areas in Florida, yet they aren't being challenged. If there are any Republican counties like this, why hasn't the Bush campaign challenged them? Remember, according to his actions in Texas, Bush believes Hand-Counting is the most accurate way to count ballots.

Funny some are trying to put more trust in "hand recounts" by human beings when half the human beings in this country are for Gore and half for Bush!

See, this would be because scientists haven't developed artificial intelligence yet, and 3 human beings can make better judgement decisions than a computer. Computers are used primarily for speed, not accuracy.

I think what the Gore-supporters in this thread are trying to say is we should take all the time we need and the results should not be considered final until Al Gore wins

Right... I think what you are saying is that we should ignore US law (which allows both for these recounts and legal challenges) and just say, what the hell, let's give the Presidency to Bush. No? Why are you so opposed to following the laws of the US specifically designed for these situations? I still haven't heard a good answer here.




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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

[Dreamshake]

Firstly.

Hypocracy is that for all the talk by Republicans that this has to stay out of the courts, who was the first to take it to the courts? The republicans, by trying to block hand counts.

Secondly.

Cmon Clutch. You can do better than that.
I didnt claim that the fact finding mission was mine. I clearly stated that it was done by CNN. The facts put forth were the truth. FUNNY how in a fact finding mission CNN only found lies in Republican stories, and not one in the Democrats. HMMMM

Thirdly.

The ballot is NOT legal. Doesnt matter who approved it, or got to see it in the mail, or that only on a written ballot does the punch holes have to be to the right of the nominee. The ballot is illegal according to FL law, because the second punch hole must belong to the democratic party. Not the third punch hole.

Fourthly.

Yes, i am partial, and make claims to support my pariality. But never did I claim that anything that CNN put forth as fact as my findings.


The real funny thing is Clutch is that you chose to stay away from the FACTS put forth, which slams everything the Republicans have tried put forth as fact by CNN. Funny thing is, I didnt leave anything they said out negating something the Democrats were stating, because CNN didnt find any discrepancies. Unlike the 10 or so they found in the Republicans stories.

And Freak. Please. Try harder next time. Your one liners dissing me for RELAYING the facts; which decimate the validity of those who are in Bushs camp (and were trying pawn off as the reality) still doesnt change the FACTS.

ITs utterly hilarious that you claimed in another thread how you didnt have a partiality, nor did you vote for Bush. But over the course of the last few days, its quite appearant that you do have a partial view. So quite trying right now. Your attempt to fool people into believing your impartiality just isnt working anymore bud.

Hey, try this. I posted the truth. Try arguing with IT. Because I never claimed these to be MY findings. Thats right. Everything you repubs have been spewing in contrast to the Dems has just been smudged all in your faces. You dont have anything of substance to argue with so lets get busy with personal attacks. (*note* I am truely not a democrat. But I did support Gore.)

Like I said. Who voted the honesty and integrity ticket?


By the way. Here's another fact.

FL Law allows for Hand recounts for situations like this. Just like in states like TX among many many others. Whos using the courts right now. Let me give you a guess, it aint Gores camp. It IS the camp that tried to ridicule Gore for thinking about using the courts, but looks whos walking the walk now.


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"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

[This message has been edited by Dreamshake (edited November 11, 2000).]

[Achebe]

Careful Dreamshake... after an indie or demo formulates a coherent argument republicans usually go straight for character. I suggest you now tell us everything you've ever done in your entire life, merely to immunize your arguments.

LOL. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

Ahh... but seriously folks, great post Dreamshake. These Dream*(.ignoreCase()) people keep me on my toes.

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"Everyone I know has a big but...

come on Simone, let's talk about your but."

[Dreamshake]

Thank you Achebe.

I posted this merely because I found it utterly amazing that in a mission to find out "Whos telling the truth" that the entire piece put forth by CNN found only discrepencies in the Republicans stories. I HONESTLY thought that it would of gone 50/50 and if it would of, I might not of posted it. Thinking that thats probably what was expected.

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"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

[Major]

Originally posted by Dreamshake:
Thank you Achebe.

I posted this merely because I found it utterly amazing that in a mission to find out "Whos telling the truth" that the entire piece put forth by CNN found only discrepencies in the Republicans stories. I HONESTLY thought that it would of gone 50/50 and if it would of, I might not of posted it. Thinking that thats probably what was expected.


You forget it's all liberal media though.



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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

[Dreamshake]

I think that was sarcasm.

But if not I have one name for you

Dan Rather.


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"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

[Major]

Originally posted by Dreamshake:
I think that was sarcasm.

But if not I have one name for you

Dan Rather.



It was definitely sarcasm.

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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

[mrpaige]

Originally posted by Dreamshake:
Firstly.

Hypocracy is that for all the talk by Republicans that this has to stay out of the courts, who was the first to take it to the courts? The republicans, by trying to block hand counts.

While I disagree with the idea of trying to block the handcounts (since, according to the Secretary of State of Florida, a candidate is within his rights to ask for a handcount). I have to also disagree that the Republicans took this to court first. I mean, there were several lawsuits filed already from disgruntled Democratic voters regarding the ballot. Lawsuits that the Gore people have publically supported.

But I don't think Bush should've filed suit to stop the handcount. It's clear that the law wasn't on his side in that matter.



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Houston Sports Board (http://www.houstonsportsboard.com)
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[TheFreak]

Here is what is fact.

1. 19,000 votes double voted for president in W Palm Beach. But on lower level tickets where the layout was different. Only 65 double votes occured, and 67 for another position occured.

2. The 15,000 double votes in 96 that the republicans keep saying keeps in standing the 19,000 double votes this year is a true figure. If you add people who didnt vote for a president at all in 96. Do the same for 00 and you get almost 30,000 thrown out votes.

3. On a chart showing the number of registered independant and reformist voters across FL. The number of votes pretty much reflect the number of register (Buchanan) voters. Except in on county. W Palm Beach where it was waaaaaaay off the chart.

4. A statistical professor out of California (cant remember which university exactly) states that the chance of Buchanan legitimately recieving that many votes is approximately 1:1,000,000,000,000. Or put easier. 1 in 1 trillion.

5. Yes Buchanan recieved 9,000 votes in 96 in W Palm Beach in 96. That was running as a republican.

6. The figure that Republicans keep saying that the reason Buchanans vote count was so high was due to a 110% increase in registered Reformist voters. Not true, that figure stands true for all non Republican, Democratic registries. Green patry, Independants, Reformists, Socialist, Workers, ect, ect, ect.

7. The claim that No one complained till after the fact of the outcome is also not true. There are registered complaints from as early as 8:00 the morning of the election.

8. The Illinois Ballot that Karl Rove showed the media as being the same as the one in W Palm Beach wasnt the same. Illinois Ballot had Presidents listed on one side of the page on their own page.

From grummett and mc mark, who are both more impartial than CNN, here is also what is fact: 8-year-olds breeze through 'butterfly ballot'. (http://www.nandotimes.com/no_frames/politics/story/0,4457,500278439-500436409-502784171-0,00.html) Keep throwing out stats on the number of people who can't understand a ballot. I just don't care. And I guarantee you that most people with any common sense feel the same way. The fact that a 2nd grader can follow instructions that a registered voter can't seem to comprehend just isn't going to jive with me. I guess we should start allowing 2nd graders to vote. At least they know how to only choose one candidate. Yeah, I'm mean. I'm sooo mean.

If the ballot is illegal now, why wasn't it illegal in '96? Why wasn't it illegal when it was sent out prior to the election? Why aren't the people who approved this 'illegal' ballot being prosecuted?


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People like to slam Bush's education record, but at least Texans know how to punch holes.

[Major]

Freak, I've seen an Georgetown University study where 19 out of 50 (I think) voted for Buchanan instead of Gore when they meant to vote for Gore.

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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

[Clutch]

Originally posted by shanna:
See, this would be because scientists haven't developed artificial intelligence yet, and 3 human beings can make better judgement decisions than a computer. Computers are used primarily for speed, not accuracy.

<div align="center">http://www.clutchcity.net/cnnpic.jpg

You're right. I feel so much better now.</div>

Originally posted by shanna:
Why are you so opposed to following the laws of the US specifically designed for these situations?

Well that's one way of spinning it shanna.

I'm not against following the law... I'm against a hand recount in strictly heavily democratic areas by democrats with one sole purpose: to find votes by any means possible for Albert Gore.

I don't trust it.

You want a good answer, that's my good answer. I'd like to hear a good one as to why the American people should trust the supposedly "accurate" hand count of a bunch of error-prone democrats who know Al Gore needs 327 more votes.

I'd like to ask another one, and this is a legimate question ... at what point do you consider all votes to be counted? When Gore wins? Seriously.

Originally posted by Dreamshake:
The real funny thing is Clutch is that you chose to stay away from the FACTS put forth, which slams everything the Republicans have tried put forth as fact by CNN. Funny thing is, I didnt leave anything they said out negating something the Democrats were stating, because CNN didnt find any discrepancies. Unlike the 10 or so they found in the Republicans stories.

Ignored your facts? There was zero reason to respond to each fact when I added one key element that you clearly ignored: The ballot is not illegal. You know how reading a fortune out of a chinese fortune cookie is pretty funny when you add the words "in bed" after it? Go ahead and try adding "and the ballot is legal" after each one of your facts. Sort of takes the sting out of it, doesn't it?

Sorry if you don't want to acknowledge that and instead view it as a personal attack.

You say it's illegal, and there may still be some debate over that, but no offense DS -- I take the Florida Secretary of State's word over yours.

Originally posted by Dreamshake:
Hypocracy is that for all the talk by Republicans that this has to stay out of the courts, who was the first to take it to the courts? The republicans, by trying to block hand counts.

I don't believe Bush is doing the right thing for the country by going to court (dems take note: I am taking issue with something my own preference for the President is doing), but I do believe he has a very big reason to be concerned given the situation, and as even shanna pointed out it is perfectly legal for him to do so. However, I don't think it's the best route.

Originally posted by Dreamshake:
You dont have anything of substance to argue with so lets get busy with personal attacks.

Please point out one single personal attack in my post. You can't do it.

And your "high-and-mighty-impervious-to-double standard" democratic party.... haven't heard a single peep lately about voter intimidation, racism, refusal to help voters nor refusal to hand out substitute ballots. In fact I saw a poll worker from Palm Beach tonight on CNN absolutely deny all of that. Is it possible that was all a big diversion, along with talk of 8 lawsuits, recounts and "Gore won the popular vote" to buy the dems some time from our country?

As dreamshake would say, "HMMMM".

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NOTHING BUT .NET
CLUTCHCITY.NET (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[Rocketman95]

Clutch, of course the reason they're recounting is to find more votes for Gore, whether through votes for Bush that should've been thrown out or through votes for Gore that shouldn't have been thrown out.

If you're willing to accept the ballot as being legal because the Secretary of State of Florida said so, you should heed your own advice and accept this manual recount for the same exact reason.

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"He was under more balls than a midget hooker."-Bobby Hill

visit www.swirve.com (http://www.swirve.com)

[Dreamshake]

Sorry Clutch. I should of made my own points clearer than the W Palm Beach ballot. I was refering to the Freak when I made that comment on personal attacks.

Actually there is a good lesson here. I thought it was fairly obvious that since I started the next framing of my post off with "Freak...." That it would be assumed those comments directly underneath them would pertain to him. So I guess one persons ease is anothers fuzzy ballot. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

Now secondly Clutch. Since you ignored my Fact post based on the Ballot being Legal. Then I say to you. If the ballot is Illegal then would you come forth and shame the republicans for their widespread use of lies, that they are pawning off as truth?

Because once again it is in fact true that the Ballot HAD to have the Republican candidate with the first punch hole, and the Democratic candidate with the second sequential punch hole. The same Florida Secretary of State, and the commisioner of elections in W Palm Beach both acknowledged this as true. Now If you look at that ballot and are going to argue with me that Gore had the second hole on that ballot, then go ahead assume that the ballot is legal. But you know, as well as the rest of the world that Gore was placed second on the ballot, and his punch hole was third. At this point it doesnt matter who approved it, who saw it in the mail (by the way the ballot sent out to the voters didnt include punch hole positioning, but if they read their voting manuals then they would of assumed the second hole to naturally belong to Gore), or who else uses this form. It didnt adhere to the way, by Law, that it was supposed to.

Clutch. All in all man, you still have a great site, and keep up the great work. (gratuitous CC.NET praise) http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif I hope that you and I can keep this civil. I didnt mean you when I made that comment, and I hope its clear to you now.

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"I have amazing, powers of observation"...Pink

[This message has been edited by Dreamshake (edited November 12, 2000).]

[DUDE]

THE Hypocritcal thing is this..
Gore wants to have 'every vote count'. Yet he just wants to hand count His strong hold. If it was a big deal to him to get 'every vote count' then he could have PUBLICLY come out and said lets hand count the entire state or any other state that is close.
It is obvious he doesnt want every vote to count. He only wants HIS votes to count.

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"Her Box Started Buzzing Ever Since She Heard The CRÜE"

[Clutch]

Funny that in dreamshake's first post he tries to let everyone know his fact-finding mission is non-partisan, yet smugly slams Bush in the very next sentence.

Funny that shanna implies doubt that the Duval ballot is illegal like the one in Palm Beach, when according to the Florida Secretary of State the Palm Beach ballot is legal.

Funny dreamshake's fact-finding mission doesn't include this.

Funny dems don't acknowledge it either because it's devastating to their case.

Funny that Gore wants a hand-recount in 4 of the predominantly democratic areas knowing history says the amount of votes generally go up, thus Gore gets more votes. 1 district difference X 4 and Gore wins...

Funny Gore hasn't asked for any hand-recounts in predominantly Republican areas.... you know, for the sake of accuracy.

Funny some are trying to put more trust in "hand recounts" by human beings when half the human beings in this country are for Gore and half for Bush!

I think what the Gore-supporters in this thread are trying to say is we should take all the time we need and the results should not be considered final until Al Gore wins, at which time our esteemed Internet inventor is to move his stuff out of the White House's garage and into the Presidential Suite immediately.

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NOTHING BUT .NET
CLUTCHCITY.NET (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[Launch Pad]

Originally posted by DUDE:
And no matter who wins, he will have a tainted presidency. The 50 million people plus the ones getting worked up by Jesse Jackson and the rest in Florida will not feel Bush won the presidency. And the 50 million that voted for Bush will feel the same way if Gore wins since the Recount came back with a Bush lead still.

Finally, you admit that the winner will have a "tainted Presidency." http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif Man, you've been denying this in other threads repeatedly.

I'm not going to add anything that hasn't already been said to the argument, I'm just happy that you finally admitted something.

Now, if you'll only admit that Palm Beach County is not a Buchanan stronghold http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/tongue.gif

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[Launch Pad]

Originally posted by TheFreak:
From grummett and mc mark, who are both more impartial than CNN, here is also what is fact: 8-year-olds breeze through 'butterfly ballot'. (http://www.nandotimes.com/no_frames/politics/story/0,4457,500278439-500436409-502784171-0,00.html) Keep throwing out stats on the number of people who can't understand a ballot. I just don't care. And I guarantee you that most people with any common sense feel the same way. The fact that a 2nd grader can follow instructions that a registered voter can't seem to comprehend just isn't going to jive with me. I guess we should start allowing 2nd graders to vote. At least they know how to only choose one candidate. Yeah, I'm mean. I'm sooo mean.


71 out of 74 ain't too shabby. That's only about 4%.

Of course, the 19,000 discarded ballots would make less than 2% of the population, so on a percentage basis, twice as many kids screwed up their ballots.

Hmmmm, I'm not a Republican, so could you tell me if that qualifies as "fuzzy math"? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/tongue.gif

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[This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited November 12, 2000).]

[Major]

Well that's one way of spinning it shanna.

Similar to how you stereotyped and spun Gore-supporters intent into "I think what the Gore-supporters in this thread are trying to say is we should take all the time we need and the results should not be considered final until Al Gore wins", right? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

You want a good answer, that's my good answer. I'd like to hear a good one as to why the American people should trust the supposedly "accurate" hand count of a bunch of error-prone democrats who know Al Gore needs 327 more votes.

Well, maybe the fact that the votes aren't being counted by error-prone democrats? The obversing crew that monitors the process consists of 10 Republicans, 8 Democrats, and 5 Independents (note: this may be just for Palm Beach County -- I am not sure. However, in all cases, it is a bi-partisan crew similar to this). Are you just saying you don't trust people at all? Have you not ever known a scantron machine to make an error that a teacher would correct?

I'd like to ask another one, and this is a legimate question ... at what point do you consider all votes to be counted? When Gore wins? Seriously.

I consider the matter resolved and all votes counted when all major issues have been resolved by either the two campaigns or the courts. If Bush wins, I'd like it be legitimate -- and it's not right now because there are too many unanswered questions.

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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!

[This message has been edited by shanna (edited November 12, 2000).]

[Clutch]

dreamshake -- I understood you were speaking to TheFreak in the latter half, but though in the last paragraph it changed since you referred to "Everything you repubs have been spewing in contrast to the Dems has just been smudged all in your faces.", and Achebe seconded the motion.

I appreciate the comments on the site -- I assure you I don't hold a grudge because people hold different political views than I do, and I hope no one treats me with kiddie gloves on because I run the site... I enjoy the discussion. I know I offend, well, apparently half the country, with my views, but that's what the BBS is for -- not the page.

I despise Al Gore, and I just had enough of Gore-worshippers on here trying to paint such a pretty picture of him.

Originally posted by shanna:
Similar to how you stereotyped and spun Gore-supporters intent into "I think what the Gore-supporters in this thread are trying to say is we should take all the time we need and the results should not be considered final until Al Gore wins", right? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

He can be taught! http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

Originally posted by shanna:
Have you not ever known a scantron machine to make an error that a teacher would correct?

I think I wish I had the teachers shanna had. Apparently he had teachers that said, "I see you penciled in both (b) and (c) even though the scantron sheet says clearly you lose points if you answer twice. The correct answer is (c) and... well... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one because I think that's what you wanted to choose."

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NOTHING BUT .NET
CLUTCHCITY.NET (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[mrpaige]

Originally posted by shanna:
I consider the matter resolved and all votes counted when all major issues have been resolved by either the two campaigns or the courts. If Bush wins, I'd like it be legitimate -- and it's not right now because there are too many unanswered questions.



Will you consider it legitimate if the matter drags out in Florida so long that whole counties are excluded from the vote totals because they didn't certify in time like the law requires? Will you consider it legitimate if Florida doesn't certify their electoral votes in time and sends both delegates to the electoral vote on December 18th and lets the House of Representatives decide which electoral votes to count?

How about if the Florida thing drags on so long that they simply don't send any electors and the President gets selected by the House (assuming the Supreme Court interprets the 12th Amendment that way)?

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Houston Sports Board (http://www.houstonsportsboard.com)
The Anti-Bud Adams Page (http://www.antibud.com)

[Achebe]

Isn't it annoying that we live in a democracy and we have to deal w/ this crap? It'd be much better to have one man merely seize power.

I understand the fact that many people are annoyed about the recount. It seems like one hell of a slippery slope (though logic shows slippery slope arguments to be fallacious, many of us consider it only practical). If Florida recounts, then New Mexico will recount and then blah blah blah.

The thing is though, we do live in a democracy. The votes should be recount. I don't care how long it takes, the future of the presidency of the United States is at stake.

<font face="Verdana" size="-1" color="336666">U - S - A</font>
<font face="Verdana" size="-1" color="336666">U - S - A</font>
<font face="Verdana" size="-1" color="336666">U - S - A</font>
http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

Clutch, you can even ignore the silly-heads that double punched for candidates in the same race, last night's verdict showed a 19 net gain vote for Gore due to the machine not having picked up votes in which the ballot still had the 'chad' -- the little piece of paper that should drop after being punched, hanging on to the ballot and thus blocking the machine's ability to count the vote. Bush seems to respect that error by machines if rm95 is correct, b/c he passed a law stating that errors such as these were sufficient to warrant a hand recount.

Just like Florida law.

A local law.

That a Republican is ironically trying to overrule by federal injunction.

mrpaige,
your concerns show just how antiquated election law now is. We had over a 100 million people casting their ballots. Since, IMO, the president shouldn't be elected by a 'margin of error' in the machines, there simply needs to be more time in deciding the outcome of such an important task. Since that doesn't help now, then I hope that everyone's fine w/ the judicial system intervening (in either way) and thus having a set and honored election (or in the ideal world there being a perfect count, LOL).

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"Everyone I know has a big but...

come on Simone, let's talk about your but."

[Major]

I think I wish I had the teachers shanna had. Apparently he had teachers that said, "I see you penciled in both (b) and (c) even though the scantron sheet says clearly you lose points if you answer twice. The correct answer is (c) and... well... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one because I think that's what you wanted to choose."

You do realize that scantron machines will often misread read tests in other situations, right? Such as:

(A) when a light mark is made on the far side (beyond even the number of the question) -- maybe when people mark to remember to come back to a question.

(B) When answers aren't erased well enough

(C) When the mark isn't dark enough

(D) when the mark slightly goes beyond the box

All of these can be clearly identified without question by humans, but not machines, which will occasionally accept some but not others. Obviously, the issues are a bit different in a punch ballot over a handwritten test, but the point is the same. Humans can make accurate judgement decisions that computers cannot do.

Will you consider it legitimate if the matter drags out in Florida so long that whole counties are excluded from the vote totals because they didn't certify in time like the law requires? Will you consider it legitimate if Florida doesn't certify their electoral votes in time and sends both delegates to the electoral vote on December 18th and lets the House of Representatives decide which electoral votes to count?

In that case, I think they may still be issues unresolved. However, I personally don't believe this will be the case -- I think everyone will make their best effort to resolve it quickly and fairly.

Here's the deal. Currently, there are tons of messed up questions. No political entity is going to solve them ... The point of the legal system is to help clear up these issues as best possible -- by injecting human judgement into written laws that cannot cover every situation. I would like that human judgement to take place and see what happens. If it doesn't help, so be it -- we're back to where we started. However, if it does help, we're better off. Why not try?


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Is it any coincidence that the Cato is the only Rocket with a temperature scale named after him?

I didnt think so!!!!