2 Dead as Protests Break out in Tibet [Archive]

rocketsjudoka

03-14-2008, 02:46 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23629811/

Report: Two dead as Tibet protests turn violent
China blames Dalai Lama as police fire on crowds in Lhasa led by monks

MSNBC News Services
updated 26 minutes ago
BEIJING - Protests led by Buddhist monks against Chinese rule in Tibet turned violent Friday, with shops and vehicles torched and gunshots echoing in the streets of the ancient capital, Lhasa.

A radio report said two people had been killed, while China blamed the disturbances on followers of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled Buddhist leader.

The Dalai Lama on Friday called the demonstrations "a manifestation of the deep-rooted resentment of the Tibetan people" and called upon China to stop using force during protests. In a statement, the Dalai Lama said he was "deeply concerned over the situation that has been developing in Tibet following peaceful protests."

The largest demonstrations in nearly two decades against Beijing's 57-year-rule over Tibet come at a critically sensitive time for China as it attempts to portray a unified and prosperous nation ahead of the Olympic Games in August.

U.S. government-funded Radio Free Asia said troops using both live ammunition and tear gas fired on crowds torching vehicles and Chinese-owned shops in the center of the ancient capital of Lhasa. It said two people were killed, while other reports put the death toll higher but gave no figures.

The U.S. State Department urged Chinese leaders to engage in dialogue with the Dalai Lama. The European Union also called on China to show restraint.

The protests that began on Monday's anniversary of a 1959 uprising against Chinese rule were initially led by hundreds of Buddhist monks — but then attracted large numbers of ordinary Tibetans. They were also spreading to Tibetan areas outside Lhasa, a city of about 250,000 permanent residents, not including large numbers of soldiers and members of the paramilitary People's Armed Police.

Witnesses reported hearing gunfire and seeing vehicles in flames in the city's main Barkor shopping district in the center of Lhasa. Crowds hurled rocks at security forces and at restaurant and hotel windows.

'Chaos everywhere'
"It was chaos everywhere. I could see fires, smoke, cars and motorcycles burning," said a Tibetan guide who spoke on condition his name not be used, fearing retaliation by authorities. He said the whole road in the main Barkor shopping area surrounding the Jokhang temple "seemed to be on fire."

The guide said armed police in riot gear backed by armored vehicles were blocking major intersections in the city center, along with the broad square in front of the Potala, the former winter home of the Dalai Lama.

"As I approached Potala Square, I heard cannon fire, louder than rifles. Others told me police were firing tear gas along Beijing Zhonglu, west of the Potala," he said.

Up to 400 protesters, including students, had gathered around a market near the Jokhang temple early on Friday and were confronted by about 1,000 police, according to a witness cited by Matt Whitticase of the Free Tibet Campaign in London.

Four police were injured, and another protest break out near the Potala Palace, Whitticase added.

Shops were set on fire along two main streets surrounding the Jokhang temple, Ramoche monastery, and the city's main Chomsigkang market, sending out heavy smoke.

'Chaos everywhere'
"It was chaos everywhere. I could see fires, smoke, cars and motorcycles burning," said a Tibetan guide who spoke on condition his name not be used, fearing retaliation by authorities. He said the whole road in the main Barkor shopping area surrounding the Jokhang temple "seemed to be on fire."

The guide said armed police in riot gear backed by armored vehicles were blocking major intersections in the city center, along with the broad square in front of the Potala, the former winter home of the Dalai Lama.

"As I approached Potala Square, I heard cannon fire, louder than rifles. Others told me police were firing tear gas along Beijing Zhonglu, west of the Potala," he said.

Up to 400 protesters, including students, had gathered around a market near the Jokhang temple early on Friday and were confronted by about 1,000 police, according to a witness cited by Matt Whitticase of the Free Tibet Campaign in London.

Four police were injured, and another protest break out near the Potala Palace, Whitticase added.

Shops were set on fire along two main streets surrounding the Jokhang temple, Ramoche monastery, and the city's main Chomsigkang market, sending out heavy smoke.

'Chaos everywhere'
"It was chaos everywhere. I could see fires, smoke, cars and motorcycles burning," said a Tibetan guide who spoke on condition his name not be used, fearing retaliation by authorities. He said the whole road in the main Barkor shopping area surrounding the Jokhang temple "seemed to be on fire."

The guide said armed police in riot gear backed by armored vehicles were blocking major intersections in the city center, along with the broad square in front of the Potala, the former winter home of the Dalai Lama.

"As I approached Potala Square, I heard cannon fire, louder than rifles. Others told me police were firing tear gas along Beijing Zhonglu, west of the Potala," he said.

Up to 400 protesters, including students, had gathered around a market near the Jokhang temple early on Friday and were confronted by about 1,000 police, according to a witness cited by Matt Whitticase of the Free Tibet Campaign in London.

Four police were injured, and another protest break out near the Potala Palace, Whitticase added.

Shops were set on fire along two main streets surrounding the Jokhang temple, Ramoche monastery, and the city's main Chomsigkang market, sending out heavy smoke.

A Western traveler using the name "John" told BBC World television that police had attacked monks near monasteries and said he saw military convoys moving into Lhasa carrying heavily armed troops.

In a terse report, China's official Xinhua News Agency said people had been hospitalized with injuries and vehicles and shops torched, but gave few details.

Tensions in the Tibetan capital have risen in recent days as the city's three biggest monasteries were sealed off by thousands of soldiers and police in a government crackdown, the U.S. government-funded Radio Free Asia reported Friday.

The U.S. Embassy e-mailed an advisory to Americans warning them to stay away from Lhasa. The embassy said it had "received firsthand reports from American citizens in the city who report gunfire and other indications of violence."

In Washington, White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said, "Beijing needs to respect Tibetan culture. Needs to respect multi-ethnicity in their society. We regret the tensions between the ethnic groups and Beijing. The president has said consistently that Beijing needs to have a dialogue with the Dalai Lama."

European Union leaders appealed to China to show restraint, and France's foreign minister said Paris was keeping its options open on whether to take further measures, possibly relating to the Olympics.
Hotels in Lhasa were placed under lockdown at noon, said a hotel worker in the city.

"No one has been allowed to leave the hotel, as protesters on Beijing Dong Road have turned violent ... we can hear shouting and a loud commotion outside, but cannot even look outside the windows to see what is happening outside, because they will throw rocks at us if they see us," said the worker, who did not want her name used or her hotel identified for fear of harassment by authorities.

It is extremely difficult to get independent verification of events in Tibet since China maintains rigid control over the area. Foreigners need special travel permits, and journalists are rarely granted access except under highly controlled circumstances.

Communist forces invaded Tibet in 1950, hoping to reclaim a part of China's former empire and command the strategic heights overlooking rival India. In recent decades, China has methodically begun exploiting the region's timber and mineral wealth.

Heavy-handed rule
Beijing rules the region with a heavy hand, enforcing strict controls on religious institutions and routinely vilifies the Dalai Lama, winner of the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize who fled to India amid the 1959 rebellion.

Tibetans inside and outside the country have sought to use the Olympic Games' high profile to call attention to their cause.

Beijing has accused the Dalai Lama -- whom many Tibetans consider their rightful ruler -- of trying to sabotage the games.

The protests are a stunning show of defiance for Tibetan monks who are usually closely monitored by Chinese officials.

On Thursday, monks in Lhasa started a hunger strike and two attempted suicide as troops surrounded monasteries in a government crackdown on the widespread protests, RFA said.

They are believed to be the largest demonstrations in the city since Beijing crushed a wave of pro-independence demonstrations in 1989. Since then, China has pumped investment into the region amd tried to weed out supporters of the Dalai Lama among the influential Buddhist clergy.

Protesters detained in India
Beijing maintains that Tibet is historically part of China. But many Tibetans argue the Himalayan region was virtually independent for centuries and accuse China of trying to crush Tibetan culture by swamping it with Han people, the majority Chinese ethnic group.

Elsewhere, organizers said more than 100 Tibetan exiles began two weeks of detention in northern India Friday after police arrested them during a march to their homeland to protest China's hosting of the Olympic Games.

March coordinator Tenzin Palkyi said the exiles are being kept in detention in a state-run hotel while authorities investigate charges they threatened the "peace and tranquility" of the region.

yeo

03-14-2008, 03:15 PM

What doesn't get mentioned in this report or anywhere else in the Western media is the fact that at least 5 Han Chinese civilians have been murdered by the mob, according to internet sources.

It doesn't matter where you are, if you are a machette-wielding mob attacking firefighters, you WILL be shot by law-enforcement.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/post-254-1205515732.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/post-254-1205515838.jpg

yeo

03-14-2008, 03:32 PM

It looks like the mob is not just targeting Han Chinese, but Moslems and other minorities as well. So much for the Dalai Lama's claim of tolerance and non-violence.

Many police badly hurt, mosque ablaze in Tibet: Chinese media

BEIJING, March 15 (AFP) Mar 14, 2008

Many police officers were badly injured in clashes in Tibet's capital Lhasa, Chinese state media said Saturday, also reporting that a mosque and other buildings had been set on fire.
Xinhua news agency blamed Friday's unrest on rioters "carrying backpacks filled with stones and bottles of inflammable liquids, some holding iron bars, wooden sticks and long knifes." It reported cases of burn injuries.

Xinhua said the violence had died down Friday night, although wreckages of vehicles were left ablaze on roads in the area of downtown Lhasa where the clashes had taken place.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/post-219-1205525888.jpg
http://www.sinodaily.com/2006/080314192427.nebu3lml.html

realrockyboy

03-14-2008, 04:02 PM

It is sensitive for the Chinese Government to take any violent response, considering the international negative impacts of their reactions towards Ti'anmen '89 and Ghulja Massacre. Personally I hope there'll be no more blood spilt, but people need to understand that any leader who has a worked brain, would never let a place like Tibet become an independent country. So pray that the Chinese gorvernment and Dalai Lama can work something out of this one, or it is going to get ugly.

rocketsjudoka

03-14-2008, 05:19 PM

This is terrible for both sides and shows the immense frustration that the Tibetans are under.

SamFisher

03-14-2008, 07:13 PM

Bandwagoner

03-14-2008, 07:15 PM

Yeah good thing they gave up their gun rights. Otherwise that place would be DANGEROUS!

Better to just let the PRC .gov take care of stuff.

MR. MEOWGI

03-14-2008, 07:20 PM

They should send TMac in to iso the Dalai Lama.

yuantian

03-14-2008, 10:03 PM

yes and we all know how reliable chinese internet sources are.

ya sure. i am sure those people were just carrying big knives to the party to cut carrots. :rolleyes: the fact is, they have beaten and killed many outside of their ethnic group. it's like back in 89, many soldiers and police were burnt and killed to maintain order. after that, they were ordered to shoot back. when you have a mob, they don't just walk around. they are rowdy, they'll do anything. any you are questioning the source? how about, all western sources are biased.

tigermission1

03-14-2008, 10:12 PM

The Chinese government needs to put the proverbial foot down and crush this protest in its infancy before it gets out of control (it may already be, judging by the growing violence). Forget 'international public opinion', they already don't think very highly of the PRC government and they know it's not a democracy.

This is akin to Darfur separatists or Kurdish separatists: political survival or international public opinion? Just ask the Israelis.

Well, it's what Machiavelli would say...

Northside Storm

03-14-2008, 10:13 PM

any you are questioning the source? how about, all western sources are biased.

There's just well, one thing wrong with that...

Western media isin't controlled by a gouvernment that loves censure.

Just sayin. :)

ymc

03-14-2008, 10:16 PM

It is obvious that unlike the Burma monks, these Tibetans are not protesting in a non-violent way. That makes them hard to gain outside sympathy. I hope they heed Dalai Lama's call for non-violence.

yuantian

03-14-2008, 10:18 PM

It is obvious that unlike the Burma monks, these Tibetans are not protesting in a non-violent way. That makes them hard to gain outside sympathy. I hope they heed Dalai Lama's call for non-violence.

it's very easy to make a mob go violent. it only takes a few people to turn a crowd into gangsters.

yuantian

03-14-2008, 10:20 PM

There's just well, one thing wrong with that...

Western media isin't controlled by a gouvernment that loves censure.

Just sayin. :)

isn't being controlled does NOT mean it's NOT biased. i don't think there are any unbiased news in the world.

Northside Storm

03-14-2008, 10:45 PM

isn't being controlled does NOT mean it's NOT biased. i don't think there are any unbiased news in the world.

Well, there are always sources that are more unbiased then others.

With that said, I'll make a bold statement here and say this is evidence that Tibet and China cannot peacefully coexist as a "nation within a nation". Given the state of the world economy and everything else, I doubt Tibet will ever get its independance. But really, this is just a thorn to China's side, and I doubt there are any benefits at all to holding Tibet...

wnes

03-14-2008, 11:06 PM

Peaceful demonstration ... my ass ... whatever float western media' boat

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 12:40 AM

ya sure. i am sure those people were just carrying big knives to the party to cut carrots. :rolleyes: the fact is, they have beaten and killed many outside of their ethnic group. it's like back in 89, many soldiers and police were burnt and killed to maintain order. after that, they were ordered to shoot back. when you have a mob, they don't just walk around. they are rowdy, they'll do anything. any you are questioning the source? how about, all western sources are biased.

LOL - if the Chinese with their assault rifles, armored personnel carriers, tanks, etc are actually afraid of the Tibetans and their BIG SCARY SHARP KNIVES then this whole situation is even more absurd than I thought.

Say - back when Chinese mobs were overturning Toyotas a few years ago, back when Junichiro Koizumi did something inforgivable like fail to apologize in the proper tone, I didn't hear you going nuts...wonder why...

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 12:43 AM

Well, there are always sources that are more unbiased then others.

With that said, I'll make a bold statement here and say this is evidence that Tibet and China cannot peacefully coexist as a "nation within a nation". Given the state of the world economy and everything else, I doubt Tibet will ever get its independance. But really, this is just a thorn to China's side, and I doubt there are any benefits at all to holding Tibet...
LOL- it's not a nation witin a nation, it's been the longstanding policy (now scuccessfully enacted) of the CCP to overwhelm the Tibetans with numbers and make them outlaws in their own land.

Now it has worked, and they are upset because the Tibetan chickens are coming home to roost.

Note to CCP: when you occupy a country and subjugate its people- backlash is inevitable. Remember that in the future.

newplayer

03-15-2008, 03:23 AM

LOL - if the Chinese with their assault rifles, armored personnel carriers, tanks, etc are actually afraid of the Tibetans and their BIG SCARY SHARP KNIVES then this whole situation is even more absurd than I thought.

weapons don't kill people, people kill people. if the chinese soldiers were ordered not to use their weapons, it wouldn't matter what they carry.

Say - back when Chinese mobs were overturning Toyotas a few years ago, back when Junichiro Koizumi did something inforgivable like fail to apologize in the proper tone, I didn't hear you going nuts...wonder why...

i don't remember the chinese mobs went on a riot and killed any japanese people they could find on the street.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/15/tibet.china2

'Oh my God, someone has a gun ...'

This is an eyewitness account of a foreign resident in Lhasa who took refuge in a hotel close to the centre of the Tibetan capital yesterday. The city was gripped by violence after protesters and police clashed

"Oh my God. Oh no. That's crazy. One hundred people are trying to stone one man. A man was trying to cross the street with his motorcycle - they were trying to stone him but it's so crowded I can't see whether they got him or not.

"We came out for a walk about at about five today. I knew something was happening because there were a lot of people on the street. We were on Sera Street, which goes to the [Klukang] monastery. It sounds like the noise came from there; it sounds like at first they had been fighting in the temple.

"We saw people running and people in this hotel told us to get in quickly as the crowd was coming. They seem OK here, maybe the owner is Tibetan. All the other hotels have smashed windows.

"The residents are very angry. They are throwing stones at anyone who is Han [Chinese] or from other minorities like the Hui, who are Muslims. It seems like it's ethnic - like they want to kill anyone not Tibetan.

"I would say it's a riot here but I think in the centre it's worse. There's a lot of smoke - we can see it where there have been burnings. I heard people saying the authorities were firing, using guns. We don't know.

Here we have seen people trying to stone anyone they can - Han and other minorities, not foreigners. The Tibetans had stones and knives. I saw Chinese people running away - there was nothing they could do.

"We don't see any police around here. Maybe they're all in the centre and are too busy. It's very violent.

"Oh my God. Someone has a gun in front of me. There's a group of about 20 people - two of them have handguns. They are walking the street.They're shooting. They didn't have uniforms, but the way they were in a group I thought maybe they were police. They went down the street and the first one fired, that's for sure - I think the others did; there was so much noise I can't be sure. Then some of the citizens threw stones, but not at them - in the other direction. So I don't know if they were police or maybe Tibetans.

"I have just been out to get my things. We are staying at the hotel tonight. There are still people on the streets but only Tibetans - if they see anyone Chinese they throw stones.

"Three times people raised their arms and then when they saw I was white they stopped it. The thing that surprised me most was that I saw no police or soldiers.

"I saw three people assaulting a man - I was 50 metres away, but I think he was Chinese. They kicked him and then one man had a knife and used it. He was lying on the floor and the man put the knife in his back, like he wanted to see he was dead.

"I had to get away, there were people throwing stones.

"When I came back he was gone - I don't know if he's dead. Then I saw people who had obviously been beaten or stoned. There wasn't blood on them but they were so shocked.

"This area used to be a place where Tibetans and the Chinese were friendly.

"I think this is going to get worse. One person told me 300 people have died in the city centre [the Guardian has no information to substantiate this claim]. I just don't know."

not what you'd call a peaceful protest, is it?

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 09:21 AM

The riots began when the Chinese began beating the monks in the streets.

tie22fighter

03-15-2008, 09:22 AM

Some eye-witnesses from western tourists

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0314/p99s07-woap.html?page=1

The full story here for your viewing pleasure.

Tibet unrest deepens, with violence and rioting
Tibetans threw stones at Chinese troops and set fire to buildings Friday.
By Christopher Johnson

TOKYO

Some 1,500 Tibetans engaged in street fighting with several hundred armed police as unrest intensified in the Tibetan capital of Lhasa, according to a group of foreign backpackers who witnessed rioting Friday in which protesters targeted Han Chinese and Muslims known as Hui.

"An empty PLA [People's Liberation Army] convoy pulled through" Beijing Street, the main thoroughfare just north of Barkhor Square in central Lhasa, said Ken on his "kadfly" blog. He, along with others in his group who asked to be identified only by their first name, sent out reports on e-mail and by phone throughout the day. "Maybe 100 meters farther, there was a massive crowd of Tibetans surrounding a narrow alleyway. As it turned out, they were throwing stones and hurling abuse at PLA soldiers who were blockading the passage to a monastery. After a minute or two, everyone rushed the PLA blockade and burst through. The soldiers left parts of their riot gear lying around and Tibetans started breaking them."

The unrest this week was triggered Monday by the arrest of monks who had marched from Drepung monastery in western Lhasa toward the Potala Palace, home of the exiled Dalai Llama, to commemorate the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising against Chinese rule. By Tuesday, ordinary Tibetans had joined a street protest outside Sera monastery, demanding that the monks be released. Thursday, reports from Lhasa said Chinese troops were surrounding major monasteries, forcing the monks inside, and by Friday, the protests turned violent.

China, which has long claimed sovereignty over the Tibet autonomous region, blamed the Dalai Llama for "masterminding" the unrest. A spokesman for the spiritual leader responded that the charge was "absolutely baseless." The Dalai Llama appealed to Chinese officials to stop using force and asked Tibetans to avoid violence. The United States issued a statement Friday asking China to "respect" Tibetan culture and said that "[we] regret the tensions between the ethnic groups and Beijing."

In Lhasa, the group of backpackers said that the atmosphere Friday morning had been upbeat, but that the mood had turned ugly by the afternoon.

"The crowds support the protesters by howling like wolves," said Paul by phone. "Everyone is on the streets. They want the arrested monks to be released. People are very afraid of Chinese undercover police. People are tired of being followed and observed by police. Even tourists. The massive observation of police, and the show of force over the last several days, didn't seem to work out."

Pelted with stones, the police retreated, he said.

Rioters then went on a rampage, setting fire to several buildings. "They were civilians, not monks," said Paul.

Black smoke rose over Lhasa. Rioters smashed windows along Beijing Street at restaurants and shops – including ones that are popular with Tibetans and foreigners who sympathize with their plight. They overturned cars on the street, and in front of Jokhand temple, a 1,400-year old World Heritage Site popular with Tibetan pilgrims.

"There are no police or officials to be seen in the streets anymore," said Paul. "Several Chinese-looking persons were beaten very badly, and exposed to heavy stone-throwing."

Ken, an ethnic Chinese raised in the West, ran to help a beaten Chinese man bleeding in the street. "When the Tibetans saw my Chinese face, they raised stones to throw at me. Then when I told them where I was from, they smiled and said 'You're OK'."

Paul said he intervened to stop Tibetans from beating up innocent Chinese. "It's anarchy everywhere outside. Police cars smashed. No police in central Lhasa. I met a tourist guy with a camera, he took pictures and film. I gotta go. I have to get inside now. They expect the army to move in soon."

Ken later wrote on his blog: "We also saw a monk (or at least someone dressed like one) direct an attack on a store or restaurant with a small Chinese flag flying from it."

Reaching a hotel after witnessing these attacks, they were moved out of rooms facing the street to safer quarters at the back. They went on the roof to see fires and plumes of smoke around Lhasa, normally known as the sunniest city in China. Hotel staff later closed off the roof, and stopped taking calls from overseas.

"We are locked off in the hotel," said Paul via cellphone. "There are rumors that 13 arrested monks have been killed."

He stayed inside his hotel Friday night with the group, but reported that he heard gunfire and explosions into Saturday morning.

With nowhere to go, Ken tried to upload photos on his blog. "A Chinese guy came into the Internet cafe at the hotel. He wasn't in uniform, but it was clear that he was an undercover police agent. He turned off the computers and gave me a real dirty look, like he knew what we were doing."

Paul went into the reception at the front of the hotel to get a look out the window at the street. "The riot is still going on out there. It's getting worse and worse.

According to Ken, PLA troops moved in around 8:30 p.m., "with huge armored transport trucks and put out some of the fires. A new fire, however, which is taller than any building around, has just been started recently."

Paul described the vehicles as having "big fat tear-gas guns and big fat cameras on it, versus Tibetans with machetes and sticks."

With military vehicles now in the streets, Paul went to the roof and saw fires burning in the north of the city. "Tibetans are huddled around on roofs across the city, for safety and to watch what is happening below."

Later, a European traveler joined the group holed up in the hotel room. He claimed to have seen two dead Tibetans and said that he saw Tibetans attack Muslims and Chinese randomly. "They were aiming to kill Muslims and Chinese for a free Tibet," he said.

When pressed for details, he said he saw the bodies at 7 p.m., covered with sheets, opposite a small hospital in the old section of Lhasa, in the Muslim quarter east of the hotel. He assumed they were Tibetans because they were being carried away by Tibetans into a four-wheel-drive vehicle. They brought one body into a hospital.

The European traveler said he was hiding out with a Tibetan family but eventually got kicked out when he disagreed with their sentiment that all Chinese and Muslims should be removed from Tibet. A monk who was with the family asked him to leave, to avoid confrontation

jli

03-15-2008, 09:43 AM

The riots began when the Chinese began beating the monks in the streets.

How do you know that ? Were you there ?

newplayer

03-15-2008, 09:47 AM

The riots began when the Chinese began beating the monks in the streets.

on the other hand, some chinese travel agents said the tibetans started the violence by burning an empty tourist bus. (link (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/14/asia/china.php) )

of course, burning and stabbing random Han civilians on the streets and torching their properties are perfectly reasonable ways to respond to the police brutality against some tibetan monks ... even though some of the police might have been tibetans themselves.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4513/59847814iy4.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x105/lancero_photos/marco/20080314121857ENLUS0128483112054971.jpg

guess that fireman should have left the fires burning then...

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/03/15/PM_tibet_wideweb__470x332,0.jpg

nice machete ...

yeo

03-15-2008, 09:50 AM

Well, now it's been confirmed. Ten innocent civilians were murdered in the riots, including two muslim store owners and two TIBETAN hotel workers. They were set on fire and burnt to death. Why are Tibetans killing Tibetans, you ask? Because they were simply trying to protect their property. So are these people "freedom fighters" or simple thugs out to take advantage of a lawless situation?

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 09:57 AM

How do you know that ? Were you there ?
It was reported in the New York Times.

jli

03-15-2008, 10:22 AM

It was reported in the New York Times.

When reporting international affairs, the American medias are just as bias as the the Chinese medias. I have been in both countries long enough to know that.

yeo

03-15-2008, 10:25 AM

It was reported in the New York Times.

And the NY Times weren't there either. They, and the other Western media, were getting their info from the so-called "Free tibet" crowd. Guess how trustworthy that is. Now eye-witness accounts from tourists are starting to come out. Read those and judge for yourselves. It doesn't matter what your opinion on the Tibetan situation is. Murder is murder, and cannot be tolerated anywhere and for whatever reasons.

wnes

03-15-2008, 10:27 AM

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 10:38 AM

And the NY Times weren't there either. They, and the other Western media, were getting their info from the so-called "Free tibet" crowd. Guess how trustworthy that is. Now eye-witness accounts from tourists are starting to come out. Read those and judge for yourselves. It doesn't matter what your opinion on the Tibetan situation is. Murder is murder, and cannot be tolerated anywhere and for whatever reasons.

I'm taking the NYT over sina.com internet forums or official chinese state media, sorry brah.

I wonder how many hundreds of tibetans the chinese army will kill this time, if it will be as many back in the early 90's. Maybe they will keep it respectable for the Olympics and stop at 99.

Really, the Chinese government should just exterminate or deport them all, that's what they want to do, so just go ahead and do it, then we don't have to have this discussion anymore. Then we can pave over the Jokhang and put a department store there and turn the Potala into a KFC.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 10:39 AM

Well, there are always sources that are more unbiased then others.

With that said, I'll make a bold statement here and say this is evidence that Tibet and China cannot peacefully coexist as a "nation within a nation". Given the state of the world economy and everything else, I doubt Tibet will ever get its independance. But really, this is just a thorn to China's side, and I doubt there are any benefits at all to holding Tibet...

there are. vast amount of natural resources and land. just like how americans are trying to get oil everywhere. except the difference is, china has a long history with all his neighbors. boundaries have always been questionable. tibet sacked ancient chinese capital while china was in a huge civil war. unlike americans, who have nothing to do in iraq or other places. anyways, tibet can't survive without china anyways. they are land locked in all sides.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 10:40 AM

I'm taking the NYT over sina.com internet forums or official chinese state media, sorry brah.

I wonder how many hundreds of tibetans the chinese army will kill this time, if it will be as many back in the early 90's. Maybe they will keep it respectable for the Olympics and stop at 99.

Really, the Chinese government should just exterminate or deport them all, that's what they want to do, so just go ahead and do it, then we don't have to have this discussion anymore. Then we can pave over the Jokhang and put a department store there and turn the Potala into a KFC.

if there were any killed, the number would have been reported. the western media would jump all over it. honestly, i take chinese media (not sina) over NYT anyday. and i lived most of my life outside of china.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 10:42 AM

LOL - if the Chinese with their assault rifles, armored personnel carriers, tanks, etc are actually afraid of the Tibetans and their BIG SCARY SHARP KNIVES then this whole situation is even more absurd than I thought.

Say - back when Chinese mobs were overturning Toyotas a few years ago, back when Junichiro Koizumi did something inforgivable like fail to apologize in the proper tone, I didn't hear you going nuts...wonder why...

NO, chinese army DO NOT fire shot, unless there is a DIRECT ORDER from the authority. never was the case that soldiers fire at the mob anywhere in china without orders.

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 10:43 AM

if there were any killed, the number would have been reported. the western media would jump all over it. honestly, i take chinese media (not sina) over NYT anyday. and i lived most of my life outside of china.
Yes, believing the state-censored media is very convenient, if you want to avoid any embarrassing news about the state.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 10:47 AM

Yes, believing the state-censored media is very convenient, if you want to avoid any embarrassing news about the state.

i think it's pretty obvious at the moment, that so many foreigners are in tibet at the moment. from their statements, i don't think it's far from the truth. i doubt they will be helping the government.

and look, if for whatever reason, and territory is lost during their reign, they will no longer be the government. so the government will do whatever it can, to stay in power. they are doing what the chinese people want. any part become separated will create rebellion in china.

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 10:57 AM

i think it's pretty obvious at the moment, that so many foreigners are in tibet at the moment. from their statements, i don't think it's far from the truth. i doubt they will be helping the government.

and look, if for whatever reason, and territory is lost during their reign, they will no longer be the government. so the government will do whatever it can, to stay in power. they are doing what the chinese people want. any part become separated will create rebellion in china.

the foreigners will have their camera memory cards confiscated as they leave, bet on it.

jli

03-15-2008, 10:59 AM

the foreigners will have their camera memory cards confiscated as they leave, bet on it.

This was true a decade ago. But not anymore.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 11:01 AM

the foreigners will have their camera memory cards confiscated as they leave, bet on it.

cell phone calls have been going out the whole time. it seems like, you don't want the truth to be told by the foreigners, so it would preserve the images of "peaceful" demonstration.

actually, just reported, soldiers started to go hard on them. whatever that means. actually, a professor at college said (which is true), that the exile government is extremely biased. due to most of them are upper classes that ran away. they want their power back so everything from them are pretty much biased. just like the PRC. so i wouldn't take any of them as the truth. just something you have to judge yourself. i doubt the real truth will ever be known. again, something to judge yourself.

yeo

03-15-2008, 11:26 AM

Really, the Chinese government should just exterminate or deport them all, that's what they want to do, so just go ahead and do it, then we don't have to have this discussion anymore. Then we can pave over the Jokhang and put a department store there and turn the Potala into a KFC.

Isn't that how the white settlers took America, by exterminating the natives? And how about your great state of Texas, I am sure you know how it became American, right?

Anyway, more eyewitness accounts coming out, this time from a British Journalist with the Economist, sounds to me remarkably like the LA riots a few years back, fueled by race and greed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...ll&offset=0

And this particular segment for you, seems like the police is being remarkably restrained,

"Late in the evening, two or three fire engines moved down Beijing Road accompanied by a few armoured personnel carriers.

I walked past these and saw the police quietly sitting on top of them with their automatic rifles and helmets, but even when this well protected they did not deploy on the street at this stage.

The authorities’ main concern in the evening was to stop the fires from engulfing the narrow alleyways of the old Tibetan quarter. As they put out the fires, Tibetans watched but did not attempt to stop them. Neither did the occasional police vehicle venturing up and down Beijing Road attempt to stop any of the Tibetans walking past. It seemed as the night wore on that the authorities were still waiting for a political decision to be made as to how to handle the unrest.

I saw lines of riot police in two places at the perimeter of the riot-torn area and I saw riot police walking in front of the Jokhang temple alongside one of their vehicles with helmets and riot shields, but not firearms. Beyond these limited displays of strength, the authorities watched and waited and allowed the riots to take their course."

Deckard

03-15-2008, 12:01 PM

if there were any killed, the number would have been reported. the western media would jump all over it. honestly, i take chinese media (not sina) over NYT anyday. and i lived most of my life outside of china.
With all due respect, talk about delusional!

Impeach Bush.

tie22fighter

03-15-2008, 12:03 PM

Yeo,

your link doesn't work. I believe you are looking for this one:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3556473.ece?token=null&offset=0

I copy and paste for your viewing pleasure:

From The Times
March 15, 2008
'They stopped attacking the boy when I rushed forward'
Security forces stand by as the worst riots in 50 years are fuelled by Tibetans fighting for recognition

The violence erupted suddenly and clearly caught the authorities by surprise. Lhasa has not seen any rioting on this scale for 20 years, possibly not for the past 50, although tensions have been high this week because of the anniversary of the 1959 uprising in Tibet and fuelled by the desire of many Lhasa residents who wanted world attention to their plight as the Olympics approach.

It began with an attack on monks near one of Lhasa’s temples. The security forces are reported to have beaten a couple of monks with their fists and this led to a monk retaliating by throwing stones at police and police vehicles. Nearby crowds then joined in, throwing stones at Chinese shops and businesses.

I saw a group of a hundred or so residents breaking up pieces of concrete and throwing them at the windows of Chinese shops as hundreds of on-lookers cheered. There was no sign of any attempt by security personnel during all of this to restore order. For an entire afternoon and into the evening Lhasa was under the control of rioters.

At the outset, the violence was also directed at passers-by who appeared to be ethnic Chinese. I saw one boy on a bicycle and people throwing stones towards him. As a foreigner, like other foreigners in Lhasa, I was treated with respect by the demonstrators. When I rushed forward to stop them attacking the boy, they ceased throwing their stones.

Several taxis I saw driving past had stones thrown through their windows. And a bus caught in the middle of the crowd had stones thrown at it. A small group of people carried a Chinese flag out into the middle of the street and trampled on it.

Throughout the afternoon groups of people came out from various houses. Sometimes just one or two teenage youths armed with traditional Tibetan knives, sometimes large groups of dozens, attacked Chinese shops, most ethnic Chinese themselves having fled in the early stages of the violence, leaving their shops shuttered but not secure enough to prevent them from being broken into by the mob.

They hauled out everything they could from row after row of Chinese shops. I saw them dragging out clothing , large pieces of meat and gas canisters, all of which they heaped on to the streets and set alight, with occasional explosions as the canisters caught fire.

Within two or three hours, the main Beijing Road that runs through the middle of Lhasa was engulfed in flames with fires every few yards and one or two buildings ablaze.

In one side street I saw two burnt-out cars as well as two fire engines that had been set on fire by the mob.

As a gesture of celebration and defiance, many of the demonstrators took rolls of lavatory paper and threw them up over electricity wires so that many of the side streets were filled with hanging strips of paper, which they intended to resemble traditional Tibetan scarves.

One toyshop had been broken into and was swarming with children who were carrying away the merchandise.

At one point, a monk dragged me into a monastery building to keep me away from the crowds. He took me into a back room where, as we were talking, a teenage boy rushed up and prostrated himself before the monk. The monk asked him whether he was a Tibetan or a Han Chinese.

The boy said that he was a Han and begged for protection, which the lama offered in the warren of rooms of the building.

After nightfall, the crowds melted away with groups still huddled in doorways watching the fires ablaze, and the columns of smoke furling across the city and disappearing over the distant Potala Palace.

Late in the evening, two or three fire engines moved down Beijing Road accompanied by a few armoured personnel carriers.

I walked past these and saw the police quietly sitting on top of them with their automatic rifles and helmets, but even when this well protected they did not deploy on the street at this stage.
Related Links

The authorities’ main concern in the evening was to stop the fires from engulfing the narrow alleyways of the old Tibetan quarter. As they put out the fires, Tibetans watched but did not attempt to stop them. Neither did the occasional police vehicle venturing up and down Beijing Road attempt to stop any of the Tibetans walking past. It seemed as the night wore on that the authorities were still waiting for a political decision to be made as to how to handle the unrest.

I saw lines of riot police in two places at the perimeter of the riot-torn area and I saw riot police walking in front of the Jokhang temple alongside one of their vehicles with helmets and riot shields, but not firearms. Beyond these limited displays of strength, the authorities watched and waited and allowed the riots to take their course.

One Chinese trader told me as she sat terrified above her shop that she had lost 200,000 yuan (£14,000) of bicycles after doing business in Lhasa for only a few weeks.

As I spoke to her in Mandarin, she begged me to keep my voice down lest the sound of the Chinese dialect excite the people outside. And we spoke in darkness in case they recognised that Chinese traders were still in the building.

The violence was fuelled by rumour. There was rumour of killings of monks and ordinary Tibetans by security forces during the day – including reports, unconfirmed, that a handful had been shot dead in front of the Jokhang Temple itself.

I saw no evidence of deaths, but many people to whom I spoke were convinced that not only Tibetans had died, but that a number of ethnic Chinese had also been killed by the mob.

Destination Lhasa

— It is technically necessary to obtain a special visa for travel in Tibet before you arrive, in addition to a Chinese visa. But many websites say it is possible to travel to Chengdu then catch a flight to Lhasa

— Another way to get to Lhasa is on the high-altitude daily express train running between Beijing and Lhasa. The journey takes 48 hours and full details and timetables can be found on chinatibettrain.com

— You will not be able to buy a railway ticket from a tour operator unless it is part of a package, but if you are planning to travel around Tibet, you could buy one as soon as you arrive. Visit Tibet Travel & Tours (00 86 891 6922114, www.visittibet.com) will sell you a sleeper berth for £110 if you book 11 days in advance

— Expert opinion varies on both the safety and morality of travel to Tibet. The British Foreign and Commonwealth Office says go, the Australian Government says no. The pressure group Free Tibet recognises that travelling lends legitimacy to China’s occupation but also that visitors are encouraged by the Dalai Lama to engage with Tibetans and provide information to support organisations outside the country

— The excellent Tibet travel website Himmies says: “The Dalai Lama actually encourages people to go to Tibet and then tell the world what they have seen”

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 12:04 PM

Isn't that how the white settlers took America, by exterminating the natives? And how about your great state of Texas, I am sure you know how it became American, right?

Dont' stop there, there are all sorts of historical atrocities in the past that we can talk about. Let's go ahead and use all of them to justify present-day conduct by unrelated parties.

tie22fighter

03-15-2008, 12:05 PM

Another story from the Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3551219.ece

From The Times
March 15, 2008
China faces crisis as world leaders call for restraint

China faced one of its most serious political crises in two decades as Tibetans resentful of Beijing rule set fire to swaths of Lhasa. The army responded by sending armed personnel carriers onto the streets.

Angry Tibetans attacked ethnic Han Chinese and gunshots echoed in the streets as security forces tried to restore order. Bodies were seen lying in the streets.

The anti-Chinese unrest, which has spread beyond Lhasa to far-flung Tibetan monasteries beyond the region’s borders, is precisely what China wants to avoid as it seeks to present a stable and prosperous face to the world for the Olympics in August.

The People’s Liberation Army sent armoured personnel carriers and troops into the streets of Lhasa to curb running battles between angry young Tibetans and ethnic Han. From his home in exile in India, the Dalai Lama called on Beijing not to use brute force to quash the demonstrations.

Witnesses said they saw six bodies in the streets tonight, although this could not be independently confirmed.

In the Barkhor market that winds around the Jokhang temple, Tibet’s holiest site, they reported the bodies of two Tibetan men and two Tibetan women. The body of a Tibetan man was seen in the Lugu district and a Tibetan woman lay dead on Qingnian Road, near the city centre. They said all appeared to have been shot but no monks were seen among the dead.

Many ethnic Han Chinese, a minority in Tibet, were wounded in attacks by Tibetans hurling rocks and bricks as they vented their anger against Beijing rule. Residents said a number of Han had been killed but no figures were available as the city was engulfed in chaos.

One Han Chinese was stabbed by a Tibetan directly in front of the institute of traditional Tibetan medicine, a witness said. The Lhasa Municipal People’s Hospital said nine of the wounded were receiving treatment for injuries ranging from stab wounds to head injuries.

One nurse said: “We have given people stitches and others have been bandaged. Most of the injured were Han Chinese.” Long after night fell, fires blazed across the city as mobs of angry young Tibetans set light to shops and cars owned by Han Chinese. “There is smoke everywhere still, even this late at night,” said one resident.

The upsurge of violence follows four days of demonstrations by lamas from monasteries around the Tibetan capital demanding greater freedom of religion before the Olympic Games as well as independence for the deeply Buddhist Himalayan region and the return of the Dalai Lama.

The violence escalated at around 11am when monks from the 7th century Ramoche monastery staged a demonstration. Police tried to stop the lamas from racing onto the streets of Lhasa and a police car posted outside the monastery gate was set on fire as hundreds of Tibetans then rallied around the monks.

One resident of the old city near the monastery told The Times: “It’s very dangerous. Tibetans are fighting the Han people in the street outside. I can’t talk because I’m afraid.” Residents said the police withdrew from the city centre as the violence escalated.

People’s Liberation Army troops moved in at around 6pm, to be greeted with cheers by Han Chinese and ethnic Hui Muslim residents. “Long Live the Communist Party,” they shouted. “You should have come sooner.”

But the military patrols firing teargas and bullets had failed to restore order late tonight.

Rampaging mobs who earlier in the day set alight to the sprawling, concrete Tromsikhang market, built in 1993, had disappeared.

But young Tibetan men and women were hiding in houses and doorways, waiting to dart out to hurl rocks and set fires to shops as soon as each army cavalcade had passed, witnesses said.

One said: “People have been bottling up their anger for 20 years, but now those feelings have exploded.”

Military trucks equipped with loudspeakers circled the city, ordering people to return to their homes and warning: “You must bear the consequences.”

Lhasa radio and television repeatedly broadcast a statement in Tibetan and Chinese from the city government that accused the Dalai Lama of orchestrating the violence and warned people not to take part.

The broadcast said: “This small number of rioters is supported by the Dalai clique. All officials and people must listen to the Government and unite to form a stable and harmonious society. We must value this precious harmony and must struggle against the splittists until the end.”

The Dalai Lama, who fled into exile during a failed uprising against Chinese rule that erupted on March 10, 1959, urged all sides to exercise restraint, but described the demonstrations as a manifestation of deep-rooted resentment among the Tibetan people.

He said: “These protests are a manifestation of the deep-rooted resentment of the Tibetan people under the present governance. I therefore appeal to the Chinese leadership to stop using force and address the long-simmering resentment of the Tibetan people through dialogue with the Tibetan people.”

Britain, the European Union and the United States joined the calls for restraint. David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, said: “There are probably two important messages to go out - one is the need for restraint on all sides and secondly that substantive dialogue is the only way forward.”

Bernard Kouchner, the French Foreign Minister, urged respect for human rights. He said: “There is strong condemnation, coming from all the European Council and the 27 countries.”

The United States told China to act with restraint when dealing with protesters in Tibet and again asked Beijing to talk to Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama.

News of the unrest had spread quickly across the Himalayan plateau. Some 200 nuns and 10 monks from Qushuixian county near Lhasa began to march towards the city in the late afternoon but were turned back halfway. Local villagers who tried to join the demonstration were also stopped and ordered to return home.

Buddhist monks have launched a hunger strike to demand paramilitary police release fellow lamas arrested earlier in the week when hundreds took to the streets in the largest protests seen in the restive region since 1989. Two have attempted suicide in protest.

In March 1989, thousands of Tibetans rioted in the streets of Lhasa, setting fire to shops and causing widespread damage in a rampage that prompted the government to impose martial law.

Tibet has been seen periodic outbreaks of anti-Chinese unrest since Chairman Mao’s troops entered the region in 1950. Nine years later, Tibetans staged a failed uprising against Beijing rule and the Dalai Lama fled into exile in India. Tens of thousands of Tibetans were killed.

SuperS32

03-15-2008, 12:17 PM

yeo -- can i have some of that Chinese kool-aid you're drinking?

yuantian

03-15-2008, 12:31 PM

With all due respect, talk about delusional!

Impeach Bush.

can't the same be said to americans? honestly, chinese are looking out for the interest of china. i don't see why that's delusional. everyone in the world is looking out for themselves.

tie22fighter

03-15-2008, 12:37 PM

100 people died according to Tibet's government-in-exile

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20080315%5CACQDJON200803150324DOWJONESD JONLINE000011.htm&&mypage=newsheadlines&title=Tibet%20Government%20In%20Exile:Reports%20Of%20100%20D ead%20In%20China%20Protests%20AFP

Tibet Government In Exile:Reports Of 100 Dead In China Protests AFP

DHARAMSHALA, India (AFP)--Tibet's government-in-exile said Saturday it had received "unconfirmed reports" of as many as 100 deaths in unrest in the Chinese-controlled Himalayan region.

"We have unconfirmed reports about 100 people had been killed and martial law imposed in Lhasa," said a statement from the government-in-exile, based in northern India.

It said it was "deeply concerned" by reports "emanating from all three regions of Tibet of random killings, injuries and arrest of thousands of Tibetans peacefully protesting against the Chinese policy."

"The recent protest reflects the true sentiments of Tibetans inside Tibet and the yearning to be free from the repressive Chinese regime," it added.

(END) Dow Jones Newswires
03-15-080324ET
Copyright (c) 2008 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

Northside Storm

03-15-2008, 12:40 PM

...I'm surprised the Dalai Lama has kept Tibet relativly peaceful for the last couple of years, now that you think about it.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 12:42 PM

yuantian

03-15-2008, 12:43 PM

...I'm surprised the Dalai Lama has kept Tibet relativly peaceful for the last couple of years, now that you think about it.

i doubt he has that much power in terms of controlling inside. probably organized for a while. we'll see. i think the result of this, will mean, harder control and more intelligence. maybe even claims of terrorism. who knows. nothing good will come out of this. except, i do believe, the government will pump more money into the region to balance the income of different ethnic groups. that's one good thing that i hope comes out of it.

yeo

03-15-2008, 01:04 PM

i think most people won't believe stuff from them. obviously they are biased.

On the contrary, a lot of people will believe it, or they will pretend to believe it. CNN is using it as their headline, as if it's the proven truth. When it comes to pursuing an agenda, journalistic integrity goes out the window.

See the picture below, on the left is the cropped picture used by CNN, on the right is the actual photo. See the diffrence in what they portray?

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/6538_14184242.jpg

yuantian

03-15-2008, 01:12 PM

realrockyboy

03-15-2008, 01:15 PM

I don't think it's even possible for Tibet to be an independent country, for so many obvious reasons. However Chinese Government needs to realize that with so much blood being split, it will take generations to ease the hatred between Tibetan and other races in China. Till these day, event like Nangpa La shootings are still happening, and let's not forget that many people still has the memory of the massacre that happened there in 1959.

Racial integration could be a long and painful process, there're some shorter paths that some counties found success, but I don't think anyone would like to see that happen. I understand the Chinese Government won't let Tibet go, but they can let Tibetan go. Not every one is spy from India, and they should be able to at least get the hell away if they found it hard to live with other races. Slave master or not, Dalai Lama is indeed their spiritual leader, it's much better for his hardcore fans to follow him around than burning cars in Tibet.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 01:16 PM

DaRock1

03-15-2008, 01:18 PM

yuantian

03-15-2008, 01:21 PM

Are you trying to say the picture on the right side is photoshopped?
:rolleyes:

tie22fighter

03-15-2008, 01:23 PM

On the contrary, a lot of people will believe it, or they will pretend to believe it. CNN is using it as their headline, as if it's the proven truth. When it comes to pursuing an agenda, journalistic integrity goes out the window.

See the picture below, on the left is the cropped picture used by CNN, on the right is the actual photo. See the diffrence in what they portray?

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/6538_14184242.jpg

Wow! Is there any photoshop expert here? Can someone confirm that the picture on the right is the original picture?

If it is. It has to be a perfect indictment on how biased CNN is.

They would rather doctor a picture to tell a story than use the original picture to report the news.

Assuming the picture on the right is the original picture.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 01:25 PM

Wow! Is there any photoshop expert here? Can someone confirm that the picture on the right is the original picture?

If it is. It has to be a perfect indictment on how biased CNN is.

They would rather doctor a picture to tell a story than use the original picture to report the news.

Assuming the picture on the right is the original picture.

i can't see how it's not the original picture.

longhornchampno

03-15-2008, 01:28 PM

i can't see how it's not the original picture.

You could only see it with a super computer. I bought one at Walmart last week when it was on sale. They gave me a $100 rebate too. Great deal.

realrockyboy

03-15-2008, 01:29 PM

Are you trying to say the picture on the right side is photoshopped?

Lol, that's a good one.
Look at the bright side, till this point the stories I've got, the army was ordered not to fire a single bullet, and very limited death caused by this riot(Yeah CNN.... one minute ago it's 10 people, then all of a suddent 100, try harder....). Hope they can keep it that way, local folks can enjoy their new found sports, people from other races just stay at home for few good days rest, and at the end everyone be happy... :o

tie22fighter

03-15-2008, 01:31 PM

i can't see how it's not the original picture.

Not saying it is not. But if some one has the picture of the same location at some other time, without all the fog, military vehicles, and rioters, and if that picture matches the one on the right, then that will prove CNN did indeed doctored the picture.

realrockyboy

03-15-2008, 01:36 PM

BTW, not an expert, it's hella hard to keep two comletely photo fit with each other, talking about shadows, colors, consistency in the image. It that was photoshoped, I would pay very high price for who ever did it, to work for me, cause that's one of the most amazing master piece I've ever seen.

So look at this way, if the left one is true, then the right one must be fake, which is, as I mentioned above, master piece of work.

longhornchampno

03-15-2008, 01:37 PM

Wow, I can't believe you guys really try to debate whether the picture is real or not. Can you use your time in a more meaningful way? Unbelievable.

yeo

03-15-2008, 01:37 PM

Not saying it is not. But if some one has the picture of the same location at some other time, without all the fog, military vehicles, and rioters, and if that picture matches the one on the right, then that will prove CNN did indeed doctored the picture.

The original photo was published by AFP (Agence France-Presse).

yuantian

03-15-2008, 01:37 PM

realrockyboy

03-15-2008, 01:39 PM

btw here is the rest part of that photo, CNN get rid of both side of this photo.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/14/world/tibet_650_1.jpg

yuantian

03-15-2008, 01:43 PM

Wow, I can't believe you guys really try to debate whether the picture is real or not. Can you use your time in a more meaningful way? Unbelievable.

maybe it proves a point to some of the delusional posters about how biased US news is about rest of the world. it also support the idea of freedom of press in a different way. :p

tie22fighter

03-15-2008, 01:52 PM

On the contrary, a lot of people will believe it, or they will pretend to believe it. CNN is using it as their headline, as if it's the proven truth. When it comes to pursuing an agenda, journalistic integrity goes out the window.

See the picture below, on the left is the cropped picture used by CNN, on the right is the actual photo. See the diffrence in what they portray?

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/6538_14184242.jpg

Just want to say that two pictures give me very different impression.

The picture on the left give me an impression of helpless Tibetan population fleeing from and cowing under the incoming Chinese military might.

The picture on the right give me the impression very much like what can be seen on TV about Palestine rebellion and Intifada.

But the biggest question is why does CNN feel the need to go through the extra effort to cut/doctor the picture.

yeo

03-15-2008, 01:54 PM

maybe it proves a point to some of the delusional posters about how biased US news is about rest of the world. it also support the idea of freedom of press in a different way. :p

And the picture of the mob attacking the fallen fireman has not appeared in any of the major Western media outlets, I guess it doesn't quite fit the story they are trying to sell.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 01:59 PM

And the picture of the mob attacking the fallen fireman has not appeared in any of the major Western media outlets, I guess it doesn't quite fit the story they are trying to sell.

divide and conquer. that's the way of democracy. pretty soon the rest of the world will be divided into small pieces, and no longer have the ability to challenge US hegemony. while US was built on the idea of democracy will stay this way. this is my opinion, which can be completely BS. :D

tie22fighter

03-15-2008, 02:03 PM

divide and conquer. that's the way of democracy. pretty soon the rest of the world will be divided into small pieces, and no longer have the ability to challenge US hegemony. while US was built on the idea of democracy will stay this way. this is my opinion, which can be completely BS. :D

Even if CNN doctor the photo, they are not doing it on behave of US government or to keep US hegemony.

Their boss is not George Bush. Their boss is the all mighty US greenback.

Deckard

03-15-2008, 02:08 PM

divide and conquer. that's the way of democracy. pretty soon the rest of the world will be divided into small pieces, and no longer have the ability to challenge US hegemony. while US was built on the idea of democracy will stay this way. this is my opinion, which can be completely BS. :D
No, not could be completely BS. Most definitely is BS. I can't believe you're making some kind of a "big deal" out of a cropped photo. News organizations do that ALL the time ALL over the world. There was no "hidden intent" from the way CNN used the image. The bizarre claims you are making certainly have an intent, however.

Impeach Bush.

realrockyboy

03-15-2008, 02:12 PM

They're just reporting, same way as most Chinese Media would cover western incidents.
I love world peace and different cultures and all, but let's not BS here, China, US, rivals.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 02:13 PM

No, not could be completely BS. Most definitely is BS. I can't believe you're making some kind of a "big deal" out of a cropped photo. News organizations do that ALL the time ALL over the world. There was no "hidden intent" from the way CNN used the image. The bizarre claims you are making certainly have an intent, however.

Impeach Bush.

i don't think you understand how biased the news is over here. i'm basically frustrated. everything reported is the opinion of the people here. does NOT represent the truth. and on top of that, news are trying to portrait that the government is evil, which is NOT true at all. MOST chinese people support PRC, you don't have to agree with the ideology or anything, but people do suppor their effort. it frustrate the heck out of us to see everything being distorted here. it's been more than decades since i started to see all the western media. to be honest, it probably drives more chinese into nationalism.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 02:16 PM

more images of destruction by the mob and the dying han civiliian.

http://i32.tinypic.com/2rehdaf.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/16axmw3.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/70xbgh.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2upsnko.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/qysl6a.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/qyib15.jpg

rocketsjudoka

03-15-2008, 02:58 PM

Racial integration could be a long and painful process, there're some shorter paths that some counties found success, but I don't think anyone would like to see that happen. I understand the Chinese Government won't let Tibet go, but they can let Tibetan go. Not every one is spy from India, and they should be able to at least get the hell away if they found it hard to live with other races. Slave master or not, Dalai Lama is indeed their spiritual leader, it's much better for his hardcore fans to follow him around than burning cars in Tibet.

You raise a very good point and I've been saying for quite awhile that it is in the PRC's own interests to negotiate with the Dalai Lama. One important thing to consider is that even with this outbreak of violence Tibetans have overall been very peaceful when compared to other areas. Just compare what has happened in Tibet compared to Gaza, Chechnya, Kurdish Turkey, Northern Ireland and Basque territory in Spain. Much of that is due to the Dalai Lama's insistence on peaceful protest and dialogue rather than confrontation.

Further the Dalai Lama is essentially given the PRC what it wants. No Tibetan independence for some more autonomy along with non-interference in religious matters. That is far more than Arafat offered the Israelis or Mandela did to DeKlerk. It seems to me that the PRC for giving very little in return could silence many of its foreign critics while also bringing in a moderate leader who could help ease tensions in Tibet.

The problem as this demonstration shows is that time is running out for Dalai Lama as younger Tibetans become more frustrated over the situation.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1722738,00.html

Uprising Spurns Dalai Lama's Way

Violent anti-China demonstrations in Tibet eased Saturday, and a tentative calm — and electricity supplies — returned to the Tibetan capital Lhasa following four days of unrest. China's state-run news agency said protestors had killed ten people, while Tibetan activists based in India said that at least 30, and as many as 100 had died in the protests and subsequent crackdown by security forces. The authorities on Saturday issued an ultimatum demanding that the "lawbreakers" surrender themselves by Monday, but for many Tibetans, the current uprising is a sign that the prospects for a compromise with Beijing are dimming.

The Chinese authorities blame Tibet's exiled spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, for the protests. The Tibetan government installed by Beijing alleged, in a statement released Saturday, that the demonstrations had been organized by "law- breaking monks and nuns," as part of a plan by the "Dalai Lama organization" to destabilize Tibet. Aides to the Dalai Lama said these allegations were "absolutely baseless," and that the unrest was "spontaneous." Earlier last week, the Dalai Lama told supporters gathered to commemorate the 49th anniversary of his escape to India after a failed anti-China uprising, that "repression continues to increase with numerous, unimaginable and gross violations of human rights, denial of religious freedom and politicization of religious issues," but that he would continue to advocate for dialogue with Beijing and a "�middle-way' policy."

Young Tibetans, many of them born outside their homeland, have become increasingly critical of the moderation of the Dalai Lama and other exiled leaders. Although they remain loyal to the Dalai Lama, they believe that demonstrations or even confrontation might be more effective means of securing their rights. "There are two schools of thought," says Lobsang Sangay, a Senior Fellow at the East Asian Legal Studies Program at Harvard Law School. "One says you can never trust the Chinese government because they will never negotiate peacefully, and so confrontation is the best approach. The one led by the Dalai Lama says dialogue is the best approach."

Wherever they fall in that debate, Tibetans clearly view the 2008 Beijing Olympics as a high-profile opportunity to draw attention to their cause. B. Tsering, the head of the Tibetan Women's Association, told TIME that her group and four other Tibetan organizations based in India have spent the past year planning a peaceful protest campaign timed to coincide with the buildup to the Olympics. It took dozens of meetings to agree on a strategy, in part because the groups are split over whether to demand autonomy for Tibet within China, or to press for it to become an independent state. Despite the arrest of 100 or so activists by Indian authorities three days ago, a march to the Chinese border is still underway. "This is no time for differences," Tsering says. Activists including Tsering emphasize that while protests outside Tibet were planned, the uprising in Tibet itself was spontaneous. "They have been entirely without coordination," says Tsering. "Though we're watching everything — each other — on BBC."

The protests in Tibet were spontaneous, agrees legal expert Lobsang Sangay, but a violent uprising was inevitable. The combination of simmering resentment over the failure of the Dalai Lama's six-year-long negotiations with Beijing, and the influx of Han Chinese settling in Tibet have pushed Tibetans to breaking point, says Sangay, who grew up in exile. "The frustration level has reached very, very high," he says. "If you study violent movements, when these reach a threshold when it starts to affect not only political issues but also bread and butter issues, then it crosses a line and the response becomes much more aggressive and violent and that's what's happened here."

This week's events resemble the 1959 uprising and similar protests in the late 1980s, Sangay believes, all of which followed periods of attempted dialogue. "There is a co-relationship between dialogue not working out and demonstrations, dialogue not working out and frustration growing. [When dialogue constantly fails] this type of uprising is inevitable. It's not a question of if, but when." The protestors, says Sangay, are not rejecting the Dalai Lama's call for dialogue and negotiations, but Beijing's refusal to take negotiations seriously. "It's not that the Dalai Lama is wrong," says Sangay. "It's that the Dalai Lama's approach is right but that the partner is not willing and the people see the Dalai Lama being taken for a ride."

The latest protests may mark a more serious shift towards confrontation, however. Tsering notes that this is the first time major demonstrations have taken place simultaneously inside and outside of Tibet, and that the two communities seem to be drawing encouragement from each other. There's also a sense that Tibet is fast losing the culture many Tibetans are so desperate to preserve, and that the prospects for compromise are receding. "The crucial factor is the age of the Dalai Lama," says Sangay. "Unlike the �50s and �80s, Tibetan people inside and outside are very well informed of events and what's happening around the world through radio and Internet, and they know that, for an agreement to be implemented effectively, time is a factor. Implementing an agreement, this only the Dalai Lama can do. And the Dalai Lama is 73 years old now. The sooner you do it the better. The people inside feel a sense of urgency, they want him to return to the land he belongs to. They want a closure to this tragedy of history."

The problem IMO is if the PRC doesn't take up the Dalai Lama's moderate approach more radical elements in Tibet will arise.

pippendagimp

03-15-2008, 03:06 PM

I always trust sina.com over the Chronicle now......I'd probably trust them over CNN and NYT, too...

yuantian

03-15-2008, 03:26 PM

You raise a very good point and I've been saying for quite awhile that it is in the PRC's own interests to negotiate with the Dalai Lama. One important thing to consider is that even with this outbreak of violence Tibetans have overall been very peaceful when compared to other areas. Just compare what has happened in Tibet compared to Gaza, Chechnya, Kurdish Turkey, Northern Ireland and Basque territory in Spain. Much of that is due to the Dalai Lama's insistence on peaceful protest and dialogue rather than confrontation.
...
The problem IMO is if the PRC doesn't take up the Dalai Lama's moderate approach more radical elements in Tibet will arise.

i think radical elements will give the government more excuse for harsher control. i think exiles should follow dalai's route. that way, there won't be much violence against anyone. everyone want peace after all.

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 03:33 PM

yeo

03-15-2008, 03:50 PM

Blog of a tourist in Lhasa,

http://kadfly.blogspot.com/

"Before I continue with some updates from today and videos from yesterday, I want to make one thing clear because all of the major news outlets are ignoring a very important fact. Yes, the Chinese government bears a huge amount of blame for this situation. But the protests yesterday were NOT peaceful. The original protests from the past few days may have been, but all of the eyewitnesses in this room agree the protesters yesterday went from attacking Chinese police to attacking innocent people very, very quickly. They appeared to target Muslim and Han Chinese individuals and businesses first but many Tibetans were also caught in the crossfire."

Youtube of a violent assault on Chinese motorist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYTTMBu9EnQ)

yuantian

03-15-2008, 04:11 PM

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 04:23 PM

peaceful my ass. the government better do something to those ****ing thugs.
don't worry, I'm sure you'll get you wish, or have already gotten it.

Reports of gunfire only mean one thing, when only one side has guns.

Trust me, there will be a nice red river of Tibetan blood for you, if there already isn't.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 04:25 PM

don't worry, I'm sure you'll get you wish, or have already gotten it.

Reports of gunfire only mean one thing, when only one side has guns.

Trust me, there will be a nice red river of Tibetan blood for you, if there already isn't.

gees, how ignorant are you? when did i say more violence? thugs should be put in jail when they break the law. the government has NOT fired a shot yet. if you read the earlier post. with all these media attention, they won't do anything. all i want is, peace to be maintained. only people like you want violence. and oh, the mobs have guns too.

Major

03-15-2008, 04:37 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/tibet.unrest/index.html

According to this, so far, it seems that Tibetians are burning down their own city and leading violent protests. This is truly messed up. They are just hurting their own cause here.

Video broadcast on China's CCTV Saturday showed flames and black smoke rising the market, where hundreds of rioters used hands, feet and sledge hammers to break down doors and shatter windows. Video Watch CCTV's images of the violence »

One of the targets of their violence was a Bank of China branch. Protesters, including some monks dressed in red robes, could be seen overturning cars and throwing rocks to chase away other people. There was no sign of Chinese police in the video.

The protests in Tibet began Monday when hundreds of monks rallied on the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising against Beijing that forced the Dalai Lama into exile.

Police used gunfire and tear gas to quell the Lhasa protest, according to witnesses, human rights groups and Xinhua.

Demonstrators set fire to vehicles and shops. One source said late Friday that up to a third of the city may be on fire and that power lines had been cut.

A main market in Lhasa, Tromsikhang Market, was set on fire, said Kate Saunders, a spokeswoman for the International Campaign for Tibet. The market has many Chinese traders, and she said Tibetans have been concerned about the influx of Chinese into the area.

Some ethnic Tibetan shopkeepers hung scarves outside their stores in an effort to spare them from the protesters' wrath, a witness reported.

Chinese bloggers and U.S.-based human rights groups said Chinese security forces had sealed off the three main monasteries around Lhasa after the violence broke out. The bloggers also said police wearing armored vests were moving toward Lhasa in armored personnel carriers.

CometsWin

03-15-2008, 04:48 PM

more images of destruction by the mob and the dying han civiliian.

Where are the pictures of China raping Tibet for the last 50 years?

The Dalai Lama preaches compassion, peace, and love of all mankind. If China hadn't invaded his homeland and largely tried to destroy its culture there wouldn't be trouble in Tibet. Get over yourselves. Chinese sound like a bunch of fools when they portray His Holyness as some sort of terrorist. Like you're in some alternate moron universe.

realrockyboy

03-15-2008, 04:48 PM

yuantian

03-15-2008, 04:54 PM

Where are the pictures of China raping Tibet for the last 50 years?

The Dalai Lama preaches compassion, peace, and love of all mankind. If China hadn't invaded his homeland and largely tried to destroy its culture there wouldn't be trouble in Tibet. Get over yourselves. Chinese sound like a bunch of fools when they portray His Holyness as some sort of terrorist. Like you're in some alternate moron universe.

i don't get it. most people want peace. you make it sound like, there has been constant violence there. regular folks just want to live and peaceful and rich life. what's wrong with that? yes, monks everywhere preaches peace. that's true. but not everyone is a monk. i am pretty sure most of those monks were peaceful. but the video and pictures you saw, those people weren't exactly monks. if everyone stays peaceful, there won't be violence.

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 05:01 PM

clutch11

03-15-2008, 05:05 PM

I think China should kill these criminals immediately, there is no tibet but XiZang. You can't let those criminals kill and burn your own people.

realrockyboy

03-15-2008, 05:18 PM

i don't get it. most people want peace. you make it sound like, there has been constant violence there. regular folks just want to live and peaceful and rich life. what's wrong with that? yes, monks everywhere preaches peace. that's true. but not everyone is a monk. i am pretty sure most of those monks were peaceful. but the video and pictures you saw, those people weren't exactly monks. if everyone stays peaceful, there won't be violence.

Power of TV network I guess.
In China the common image for Japanese is their denial in NanJing Massacre; In Canada the common image for yanks it's their ignortant attitude and bully of the world reputation; In Japan the common image for Korean is them being extreme nationalists, the list can go on and on and on.
All TV news only report things that they wanted you to know, or at least they think it's no harm for you to know. It's been this way thousands years ago, been this way hundreds years ago, still is today, and will stay the same in any future.

Traveling, is the death of prejudice

longhornchampno

03-15-2008, 05:28 PM

lol - this chronicle of you guys expounding on how inconsequential details in a picture are rendered meaningful is quite telling.

Yeah - the image of a man riding a bike, not on CNN is CRITICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEREFORE THEY ARE BIAS CUZ THEY FORGET TO PUT BIKE MAN IN PICTURE!.......................right

You are not really so dumb to think that they were only about the bike man when they discussed things that got chopped out from the picture, right?

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 05:40 PM

You are not really so dumb to think that they were only about the bike man when they discussed things that got chopped out from the picture, right?

you're not so dumb as to think bike man is not just bike man, but obviously the Dalai Lama in disguise carrying an AK-47 which the co-conspirators at CNN tried to ignore.

But for the sleuths at clutchfans we would have never known this.

longhornchampno

03-15-2008, 05:47 PM

you're not so dumb as to think bike man is not just bike man, but obviously the Dalai Lama in disguise carrying an AK-47 which the co-conspirators at CNN tried to ignore.

But for the sleuths at clutchfans we would have never known this.

You haven't answered my question. Face the question. Don't get around it.

SamFisher

03-15-2008, 05:51 PM

You haven't answered my question. Face the question. Don't get around it.

You've answered my quesiton just fine. You're more concerned about the omission of roadside dividers in the foreground than anything else and rading an international conspiracy into it. - this is not surprising or even interesting.

Just shut up and relax - you are winning, the PLA is shooting them up as we speak. Soon you won't have to worry about this.

All you pro-CCP guys need to look on this as a glorious day, you will finally be able to stamp out the tibetan menace. Thank god, it was about time.

longhornchampno

03-15-2008, 06:00 PM

You've answered my quesiton just fine. You're more concerned about the omission of roadside dividers in the foreground than anything else and rading an international conspiracy into it. - this is not surprising or even interesting.

Just shut up and relax - you are winning, the PLA is shooting them up as we speak. Soon you won't have to worry about this.

All you pro-CCP guys need to look on this as a glorious day, you will finally be able to stamp out the tibetan menace. Thank god, it was about time.

Don't keep trying to change the topic. My posts in this thread is strictly about the picture only. You do not know my stance in the Tibet issue. Let me just tell you I support self-determination and I believe everyone should have the right to choose th form of government that they want.

Now back to picture which is what I have strictly been talking about. Anyone with half a brain knows that the guys are talking about the mob having been chopping off from the picture, not the bike man. Unless you were just acting dumb, there is no way anyone with some gray matter between their ears would think they were just talking about the bike man.

The tactic to paint someone in a bad image in order to win an argument in an internet discussion forum is getting old and lame. Are you capable of doing better than that?

longhornchampno

03-15-2008, 06:04 PM

langal

03-15-2008, 06:59 PM

MR. MEOWGI

03-15-2008, 07:36 PM

Terrible situation.

If I have to pick a side, it would have to be with the PRC. But (in this Olympic year) maybe they should extend an olive branch to the Lama.

And yes - it seems everyone on this issue has picked a side. Personally I find the traditional "Western" view a little patronizing. Somehow all Chinese media reports are lies and Western ones aren't? Even is the face of tourist reports? There is probably bias on both sides but the tourist eyewitness reports certainly do speak for themselves.

And I don't quite understand the logic of how a Tibetan is morally justified to burn or kill a Han shopkeeper because of the occupation while it would not be morally justified for a Native American to do the same here.

Does Chna have anything like this:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SJRes00037:|

S.J.RES.37
Title: A joint resolution to acknowledge a long history of official depredations and ill-conceived policies by the United States Government regarding Indian Tribes and offer an apology to all Native Peoples on behalf of the United States.
Sponsor: Sen Brownback, Sam [KS] (introduced 5/6/2004) Cosponsors (6)
Related Bills: H.J.RES.98
Latest Major Action: 7/15/2004 Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 638.
Senate Reports: 108-310

(Status: Passed Senate)

Text of S.J.RES.37: Apology to Native peoples
Wednesday, May 19, 2004

The following is the text of S.J.RES.37, a bill to acknowledge a long history of official depredations and ill-conceived policies by the United States Government regarding Indian tribes and offer an apology to all Native Peoples on behalf of the United States, as introduced on April 6, 2004.

JOINT RESOLUTION
To acknowledge a long history of official depredations and ill-conceived policies by the United States Government regarding Indian tribes and offer an apology to all Native Peoples on behalf of the United States.

Whereas the ancestors of today's Native Peoples inhabited the land of the present-day United States since time immemorial and for thousands of years before the arrival of peoples of European descent;

Whereas the Native Peoples have for millennia honored, protected, and stewarded this land we cherish;

Whereas the Native Peoples are spiritual peoples with a deep and abiding belief in the Creator, and for millennia their peoples have maintained a powerful spiritual connection to this land, as is evidenced by their customs and legends;

Whereas the arrival of Europeans in North America opened a new chapter in the histories of the Native Peoples;

Whereas, while establishment of permanent European settlements in North America did stir conflict with nearby Indian tribes, peaceful and mutually beneficial interactions also took place;

Whereas the foundational English settlements in Jamestown, Virginia, and Plymouth, Massachusetts, owed their survival in large measure to the compassion and aid of the Native Peoples in their vicinities;

Whereas in the infancy of the United States, the founders of the Republic expressed their desire for a just relationship with the Indian tribes, as evidenced by the Northwest Ordinance enacted by Congress in 1787, which begins with the phrase, `The utmost good faith shall always be observed toward the Indians';

Whereas Indian tribes provided great assistance to the fledgling Republic as it strengthened and grew, including invaluable help to Meriwether Lewis and William Clark on their epic journey from St. Louis, Missouri, to the Pacific Coast;

Whereas Native Peoples and non-Native settlers engaged in numerous armed conflicts;

Whereas the United States Government violated many of the treaties ratified by Congress and other diplomatic agreements with Indian tribes;

Whereas this Nation should address the broken treaties and many of the more ill-conceived Federal policies that followed, such as extermination, termination, forced removal and relocation, the outlawing of traditional religions, and the destruction of sacred places;

Whereas the United States forced Indian tribes and their citizens to move away from their traditional homelands and onto federally established and controlled reservations, in accordance with such Acts as the Indian Removal Act of 1830;

Whereas many Native Peoples suffered and perished--

(1) during the execution of the official United States Government policy of forced removal, including the infamous Trail of Tears and Long Walk;

(2) during bloody armed confrontations and massacres, such as the Sand Creek Massacre in 1864 and the Wounded Knee Massacre in 1890; and

(3) on numerous Indian reservations;

Whereas the United States Government condemned the traditions, beliefs, and customs of the Native Peoples and endeavored to assimilate them by such policies as the redistribution of land under the General Allotment Act of 1887 and the forcible removal of Native children from their families to faraway boarding schools where their Native practices and languages were degraded and forbidden;

Whereas officials of the United States Government and private United States citizens harmed Native Peoples by the unlawful acquisition of recognized tribal land, the theft of resources from such territories, and the mismanagement of tribal trust funds;

Whereas the policies of the United States Government toward Indian tribes and the breaking of covenants with Indian tribes have contributed to the severe social ills and economic troubles in many Native communities today;

Whereas, despite continuing maltreatment of Native Peoples by the United States, the Native Peoples have remained committed to the protection of this great land, as evidenced by the fact that, on a per capita basis, more Native people have served in the United States Armed Forces and placed themselves in harm's way in defense of the United States in every major military conflict than any other ethnic group;

Whereas Indian tribes have actively influenced the public life of the United States by continued cooperation with Congress and the Department of the Interior, through the involvement of Native individuals in official United States Government positions, and by leadership of their own sovereign Indian tribes;

Whereas Indian tribes are resilient and determined to preserve, develop, and transmit to future generations their unique cultural identities;

Whereas the National Museum of the American Indian was established within the Smithsonian Institution as a living memorial to the Native Peoples and their traditions; and

Whereas Native Peoples are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, and that among those are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND APOLOGY.

The United States, acting through Congress--

(1) recognizes the special legal and political relationship the Indian tribes have with the United States and the solemn covenant with the land we share;

(2) commends and honors the Native Peoples for the thousands of years that they have stewarded and protected this land;

(3) acknowledges years of official depredations, ill-conceived policies, and the breaking of covenants by the United States Government regarding Indian tribes;

(4) apologizes on behalf of the people of the United States to all Native Peoples for the many instances of violence, maltreatment, and neglect inflicted on Native Peoples by citizens of the United States;

(5) expresses its regret for the ramifications of former offenses and its commitment to build on the positive relationships of the past and present to move toward a brighter future where all the people of this land live reconciled as brothers and sisters, and harmoniously steward and protect this land together;

(6) urges the President to acknowledge the offenses of the United States against Indian tribes in the history of the United States in order to bring healing to this land by providing a proper foundation for reconciliation between the United States and Indian tribes; and

(7) commends the State governments that have begun reconciliation efforts with recognized Indian tribes located in their boundaries and encourages all State governments similarly to work toward reconciling relationships with Indian tribes within their boundaries.

TrailerMonkey

03-15-2008, 07:54 PM

Does Chna have anything like this:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SJRes00037:|

S.J.RES.37
Title: A joint resolution to acknowledge a long history of official depredations and ill-conceived policies by the United States Government regarding Indian Tribes and offer an apology to all Native Peoples on behalf of the United States.
Sponsor: Sen Brownback, Sam [KS] (introduced 5/6/2004) Cosponsors (6)
Related Bills: H.J.RES.98
Latest Major Action: 7/15/2004 Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 638.
Senate Reports: 108-310

(Status: Passed Senate)

Text of S.J.RES.37: Apology to Native peoples
Wednesday, May 19, 2004

The following is the text of S.J.RES.37, a bill to acknowledge a long history of official depredations and ill-conceived policies by the United States Government regarding Indian tribes and offer an apology to all Native Peoples on behalf of the United States, as introduced on April 6, 2004.

JOINT RESOLUTION
To acknowledge a long history of official depredations and ill-conceived policies by the United States Government regarding Indian tribes and offer an apology to all Native Peoples on behalf of the United States.

Whereas the ancestors of today's Native Peoples inhabited the land of the present-day United States since time immemorial and for thousands of years before the arrival of peoples of European descent;

Whereas the Native Peoples have for millennia honored, protected, and stewarded this land we cherish;

Whereas the Native Peoples are spiritual peoples with a deep and abiding belief in the Creator, and for millennia their peoples have maintained a powerful spiritual connection to this land, as is evidenced by their customs and legends;

Whereas the arrival of Europeans in North America opened a new chapter in the histories of the Native Peoples;

Whereas, while establishment of permanent European settlements in North America did stir conflict with nearby Indian tribes, peaceful and mutually beneficial interactions also took place;

Whereas the foundational English settlements in Jamestown, Virginia, and Plymouth, Massachusetts, owed their survival in large measure to the compassion and aid of the Native Peoples in their vicinities;

Whereas in the infancy of the United States, the founders of the Republic expressed their desire for a just relationship with the Indian tribes, as evidenced by the Northwest Ordinance enacted by Congress in 1787, which begins with the phrase, `The utmost good faith shall always be observed toward the Indians';

Whereas Indian tribes provided great assistance to the fledgling Republic as it strengthened and grew, including invaluable help to Meriwether Lewis and William Clark on their epic journey from St. Louis, Missouri, to the Pacific Coast;

Whereas Native Peoples and non-Native settlers engaged in numerous armed conflicts;

Whereas the United States Government violated many of the treaties ratified by Congress and other diplomatic agreements with Indian tribes;

Whereas this Nation should address the broken treaties and many of the more ill-conceived Federal policies that followed, such as extermination, termination, forced removal and relocation, the outlawing of traditional religions, and the destruction of sacred places;

Whereas the United States forced Indian tribes and their citizens to move away from their traditional homelands and onto federally established and controlled reservations, in accordance with such Acts as the Indian Removal Act of 1830;

Whereas many Native Peoples suffered and perished--

(1) during the execution of the official United States Government policy of forced removal, including the infamous Trail of Tears and Long Walk;

(2) during bloody armed confrontations and massacres, such as the Sand Creek Massacre in 1864 and the Wounded Knee Massacre in 1890; and

(3) on numerous Indian reservations;

Whereas the United States Government condemned the traditions, beliefs, and customs of the Native Peoples and endeavored to assimilate them by such policies as the redistribution of land under the General Allotment Act of 1887 and the forcible removal of Native children from their families to faraway boarding schools where their Native practices and languages were degraded and forbidden;

Whereas officials of the United States Government and private United States citizens harmed Native Peoples by the unlawful acquisition of recognized tribal land, the theft of resources from such territories, and the mismanagement of tribal trust funds;

Whereas the policies of the United States Government toward Indian tribes and the breaking of covenants with Indian tribes have contributed to the severe social ills and economic troubles in many Native communities today;

Whereas, despite continuing maltreatment of Native Peoples by the United States, the Native Peoples have remained committed to the protection of this great land, as evidenced by the fact that, on a per capita basis, more Native people have served in the United States Armed Forces and placed themselves in harm's way in defense of the United States in every major military conflict than any other ethnic group;

Whereas Indian tribes have actively influenced the public life of the United States by continued cooperation with Congress and the Department of the Interior, through the involvement of Native individuals in official United States Government positions, and by leadership of their own sovereign Indian tribes;

Whereas Indian tribes are resilient and determined to preserve, develop, and transmit to future generations their unique cultural identities;

Whereas the National Museum of the American Indian was established within the Smithsonian Institution as a living memorial to the Native Peoples and their traditions; and

Whereas Native Peoples are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, and that among those are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND APOLOGY.

The United States, acting through Congress--

(1) recognizes the special legal and political relationship the Indian tribes have with the United States and the solemn covenant with the land we share;

(2) commends and honors the Native Peoples for the thousands of years that they have stewarded and protected this land;

(3) acknowledges years of official depredations, ill-conceived policies, and the breaking of covenants by the United States Government regarding Indian tribes;

(4) apologizes on behalf of the people of the United States to all Native Peoples for the many instances of violence, maltreatment, and neglect inflicted on Native Peoples by citizens of the United States;

(5) expresses its regret for the ramifications of former offenses and its commitment to build on the positive relationships of the past and present to move toward a brighter future where all the people of this land live reconciled as brothers and sisters, and harmoniously steward and protect this land together;

(6) urges the President to acknowledge the offenses of the United States against Indian tribes in the history of the United States in order to bring healing to this land by providing a proper foundation for reconciliation between the United States and Indian tribes; and

(7) commends the State governments that have begun reconciliation efforts with recognized Indian tribes located in their boundaries and encourages all State governments similarly to work toward reconciling relationships with Indian tribes within their boundaries.

It only took us, what, 200 years to issue that apology? China's only been in Tibet for 50 years. I suspect they'll issue some apology like that in another 150 years after the Tibetans are completely marginalized, just like the Native Americans are completely marginalized here. What's your point Meowgi? There's no moral high ground for us either.

MR. MEOWGI

03-15-2008, 07:57 PM

It only took us, what, 200 years to issue that apology? China's only been in Tibet for 50 years. I suspect they'll issue some apology like that in another 150 years after the Tibetans are completely marginalized, just like the Native Americans are completely marginalized here. What's your point Meowgi? There's no moral high ground for us either.

Us is us now, not then.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 08:10 PM

Us is us now, not then.

i don't see why it's necessary in this case. both sizes have fought many wars in the past and also alliance in the past for thousands of years. it's not even close to the situation of native americans. they never did anything to europeans. you can't use that as an example.

realrockyboy

03-15-2008, 08:14 PM

Maybe they will offically file one, if 80% of Tibetans died because of the "diseases" that Chinese people brought there.

Deckard

03-15-2008, 08:26 PM

"Further the Dalai Lama is essentially given the PRC what it wants. No Tibetan independence for some more autonomy along with non-interference in religious matters. That is far more than Arafat offered the Israelis or Mandela did to DeKlerk. It seems to me that the PRC for giving very little in return could silence many of its foreign critics while also bringing in a moderate leader who could help ease tensions in Tibet."

That is the problem, Dalai Lama wants Tibetans to be Tibetans, Chinese Government wants Tibetans to be Han. Look back the history of east Asia, Chinese, Japanese(I'd say Korean? I'm not that familiar with their stories), all have done that in the past. Technically there're 56 races in China, and I'd say about 50 of them, their people looked exactly just like Han people. The method is proven to be working, and I can totally understand Tibetans don't want to be a part of it.
So solution? IMO, it's not gonna work while Tibetans still stayed in Tibet, at least not within 3 to 5 generations. Like I said earlier, Chinese Government can at least free Tibetans. Ofcourse, there're around 2.5 Million Tibetans in total(this number may be different from some sources, as Dalai Lama and his followers considering part of shinjiang belongs to Tibet as well), even those countries who blame China for Tibet, are kind enough to accept Tibetans as immigrants, it's just impossible to move all of them. A good portion of Tibetans are going to stay where they are, but that's good, most hardcore ones will be gone, and Tibet will stay peaceful enough for Chinese Government to "work racial relationships".
I doubt neither Dalai Lama nor Chinese Government will ever agree this, or any country in the world will be kind enough to do freebies. At some level, we can say that they are all not that different from each other.
So your solution would be for the Tibetans who don't like being ruled by the PRC to simply leave, if anyone will take them. Sure, that would solve your problem, wouldn't it? Have the people of Tibet leave their own country so that those who remain can be more easily assimilated into Chinese culture. Groovy. Then you can turn Tibet into a mountain theme park, with plenty of work for the Chinese immigrants and some tourist dollars for the Tibetans who remain. You can dress them up in costumes and put them here and there in scenic locations, with Chinese tour guides explaining that they're recreating the former Tibetan culture for the viewing pleasure of the tourists. The PRC can supplement their budget! I'm sure assimilating Tibet and Tibetans against their will must be very expensive. After all, China built that terribly expensive railroad up into Tibet. I know it was for the good of the Tibetan people. Terribly unfair for them not to appreciate the gesture.

Impeach Bush.

newplayer

03-15-2008, 09:02 PM

Tibetans beating down a non-Tibetan

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nJlVYNYB9Bk&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nJlVYNYB9Bk&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

check out that chick in the black jacket ...

michecon

03-15-2008, 09:10 PM

Power to the images.

langal

03-15-2008, 10:53 PM

I'm sorry but some piece of paper does not excuse virtual genocide and the destruction of a culture.

Does Chna have anything like this:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SJRes00037:|

langal

03-15-2008, 10:59 PM

mleahy999

03-15-2008, 11:02 PM

On CNN, they showed riot videos and even the monks were throwing down and destroying property. I guess they include a few knuckle sandwiches with their meditating.

This is like the LA riots. Thugs took out their frustration on the store owners. Tibetans even pulled a Reginald Denny. The Koreans held their own in '92. The Chinese and Muslim store owners... not so much.

MR. MEOWGI

03-15-2008, 11:05 PM

I'm sorry but some piece of paper does not excuse virtual genocide and the destruction of a culture.

Never said it did. But at least it acknowledges it and doesn't try to justify it.

Amercians will admit what happened. Chinese are still in denial.

yuantian

03-15-2008, 11:22 PM

Never said it did. But at least it acknowledges it and doesn't try to justify it.

Amercians will admit what happened. Chinese are still in denial.

i am not sure if the americans are NOT in denial still. just look around the world. :rolleyes:

Invisible Fan

03-16-2008, 12:27 AM

wow that video is pretty damning evidence against the notion that the Tibetans are all noble pacifists.

i suppose if the PRC buses them all to crappy slivers of land where they can own casinos, everything will be alright. especially if the people' congress draft some letter of apology.

Yeah, the US is hypocritical, but you're not expecting the world to look away from China's ritual habit of oppressing the Tibetans, are you?

wizkid83

03-16-2008, 01:43 AM

So your solution would be for the Tibetans who don't like being ruled by the PRC to simply leave, if anyone will take them. Sure, that would solve your problem, wouldn't it? Have the people of Tibet leave their own country so that those who remain can be more easily assimilated into Chinese culture. Groovy. Then you can turn Tibet into a mountain theme park, with plenty of work for the Chinese immigrants and some tourist dollars for the Tibetans who remain. You can dress them up in costumes and put them here and there in scenic locations, with Chinese tour guides explaining that they're recreating the former Tibetan culture for the viewing pleasure of the tourists. The PRC can supplement their budget! I'm sure assimilating Tibet and Tibetans against their will must be very expensive. After all, China built that terribly expensive railroad up into Tibet. I know it was for the good of the Tibetan people. Terribly unfair for them not to appreciate the gesture.

Impeach Bush.

Worked out for the native Americans didn't it :) Personally my opionion is that the Tibetan's that are there (like those occupied or suppress everywher else in the world) are probably more mad because they are still inferior economically to the Hans living there (I wouldn't be suprise if the head of industry, companies, or what not are Han with ties to the central government). I think if the PRC start letting Tibetans open Casinos AND let the profits go to Tibetans (instead of having Hans from central come in and run things) things could be smoother out there. If Tibetans see that they now have a right and special advantage over the Hans; they might be more open to the idea "modernization" under PRC.

I am of the personal belief that the allure of money, modernization, capitalism and all that jazz will be too great for majority of the modern Tibetans. Look around the world, morals and values for the majority loses easily to greed (it's a pattern that's repeated time after time). I don't believe Tibetans really reached that next stage of evolution. Culture doesn't buy you PS3s, and I believe majority of Tibetans like majority of people elsewhere in the world would be more that happy to selliout and make that trade off.

foofy

03-16-2008, 01:46 AM

Read the history of Tibet before you start a debate, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet

ymc

03-16-2008, 02:04 AM

I am of the personal belief that the allure of money, modernization, capitalism and all that jazz will be too great for majority of the modern Tibetans. Look around the world, morals and values for the majority loses easily to greed (it's a pattern that's repeated time after time). I don't believe Tibetans really reached that next stage of evolution. Culture doesn't buy you PS3s, and I believe majority of Tibetans like majority of people elsewhere in the world would be more that happy to selliout and make that trade off.

Well said. The problem is the casino idea won't work because Tibet is hard to reach and its surrounding area is still poor. Plus, the commies are against gambling.

Gotta come up with something else. I think letting Tibetans make money off tourism should be a good start.

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:04 AM

Well, let's look at some propaganda from the other side as well.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/15/content_7797477.htm

Fears and tears in holy plateau city wracked by turmoil

by Xinhua writers Lou Chen, Yi Ling

LHASA, March 15 (Xinhua) -- Dense smoke blanketed the cloud dotted blue sky, burning wreckages emitted an irritating smell and hundreds wailed over the bloodshed. A Tibetan teacher said she couldn't believe her eyes.

"I've never seen such cruelty before. How can anyone do something like this?" asked Zhayung, a Tibetan teacher at the No. 1 primary school in Lhasa, her voice still shaky and her complexion tinged with fear and sheer shock.

The school she worked at was among a wide range of targets of the planned sabotage that broke out in the Tibetan capital on Friday afternoon.

Vandals carrying backpacks filled with stones and bottles of inflammable liquids smashed windows, set fire to vehicles, shops and restaurants along their path.

Some rioters held iron rods, wooden sticks and long knifes, randomly assaulting passersby, sparing neither women or children along their trail of destruction.

"Classes were cancelled," Zhayung said. "I managed to escape from the school and hide in the building across the street, but some of my colleagues were stranded in the school for the whole night until police came to their rescue."

For many Lhasa residents such as Zhayung, March 14 stopped being just another Friday -- it was a day when the capital was left in chaos after an outburst of beating, smashing, looting and burning, which officials say, on ample evidence, was "masterminded by the Dalai clique".

The Tibet regional government said on Saturday at least 10 people were confirmed dead, including several from burns and gunshot wounds. Police managed to rescue more than 580 people, including three Japanese tourists, from the violent array of sabotage.

As tensions began to ease on Saturday, residents in the traditionally tranquil plateau city recalled the nightmares they went through.

'THE MOBS WERE CRAZY'

Tubdain, a local resident, said he saw a girl in red-clothing who appeared to be a Han Chinese chased and clubbed by six people on the Duosenge Road in the downtown area. "The mobs stoned her head and batted her knees with wooden clubs," said the 50-something Tubdain.

"Blood trickled down her face. She stumbled to the ground, crying and begging the rioters to let her go," he said. "They seemed a bunch of insane people, growling, stabbing, smashing and burning. It was so hard to believe what I saw."

Jin Hong, a clerk with the Bank of China outlet on Lhasas' Beijing East Road, suffered a broken pelvis after jumping from the second-floor of the building while trying to protect a cash box.

"About 60 rioters, all young men and women, attacked the bank with rocks and axes, and later set fire to the building on Friday afternoon.

"I hid in the toilet with three colleagues, but the mobs thronged against the toilet door. I had to jump out of the window," she said.

Liu Kun, a nurse with the General Hospital of Tibet Military Command, said Jin was in stable condition, but she was due to receive surgery in two days. The hospital was offering free treatment to all riot victims.

Not only the Han Chinese, local Tibetans were also affected by the tumultuous violence.

Rawang, a Tibetan clothes vendor in downtown Lhasa, sighed at the dreary scene, once the site of bustling commerce. "It was once a shopping haven, but now it's all deserted, like a hell."

His shop was burnt to the ground. "Losses were grave. These people were crazy," he said.

Cering Yangzom, a retired Tibetan worker in Lhasa, said he planned to have tea with friends at the weekend, but the atmosphere was too tense for them to go out. "Nobody knew what the troublemakers were trying to get at," he said.

The regional government imposed traffic bans and increased the police presence to ensure social security.

The local government said they immediately informed the citizens of the sabotage through TV, calling for them to take precautions.

Qiangba Puncog, Tibet Autonomous Regional Government chairman, who is in Beijing for the parliamentary meeting, condemned the separatist activities. "We will severely deal with those who engage themselves in activities of splitting the nation in accordance with the law," he said.

"Their separatist plot will not succeed. It's the common will of the Tibetan people to maintain national unity, ethnic solidarity and social harmony," he added.

(With reporting from Xinhua's Lhasa bureau)

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:18 AM

LOL, this is funny. :D

CNN, where doctored picture happens.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/1_Untitled-TrueColor-01.jpg

wizkid83

03-16-2008, 06:48 AM

Well said. The problem is the casino idea won't work because Tibet is hard to reach and its surrounding area is still poor. Plus, the commies are against gambling.

Gotta come up with something else. I think letting Tibetans make money off tourism should be a good start.

MaCao

I think the key to my post is that all the tension is the same as angst every where. People aren't fed/paid/laid/treated good enough relative to the "ruling" class/race in a particular situation. They see innequality and feel singled out due things they can not change.

Evening the playing field or even give them special advantages over the Hans in the area (or even in the country) will go a long way. Hell, maybe some sort of handouts will also work (very liberal loans terms for tibetans to start business/buy houses/buy cars).

MadMax

03-16-2008, 06:59 AM

I don't believe Tibetans really reached that next stage of evolution. Culture doesn't buy you PS3s, and I believe majority of Tibetans like majority of people elsewhere in the world would be more that happy to selliout and make that trade off.

this makes my stomach hurt.

newplayer

03-16-2008, 07:27 AM

Evening the playing field or even give them special advantages over the Hans in the area (or even in the country) will go a long way. Hell, maybe some sort of handouts will also work (very liberal loans terms for tibetans to start business/buy houses/buy cars).

How do you even the playing field? The Tibetans, like all other minority races in China, are already given loads of special advantages. For example, they are not subjected to the one-child-policy, their high school graduates are given 10 extra points in the nation wide college entrance examination, and their regions are always given a lot of financial assistance annually -- Tibet hasn't contributed to the tax revenue of the central government for ages, and it has received hundreds of millions of dollars of assistance every year.

You just have to look at the current infrastructure in Tibet to see how much money and effort has been poured into it. Take the recently completed Qinghai-Tibet railway for example, it cost China 3.68 billion dollars and 5 years to complete, considering that the GDP of Tibet in 2006 was around 4 billion dollars, the money had to have come from somewhere else in China.

wnes

03-16-2008, 08:26 AM

The kid, who has been brainwashed by Western media propaganda, doesn't know what he was talking about on Tibet.

realrockyboy

03-16-2008, 08:34 AM

So your solution would be for the Tibetans who don't like being ruled by the PRC to simply leave, if anyone will take them. Sure, that would solve your problem, wouldn't it? Have the people of Tibet leave their own country so that those who remain can be more easily assimilated into Chinese culture. Groovy. Then you can turn Tibet into a mountain theme park, with plenty of work for the Chinese immigrants and some tourist dollars for the Tibetans who remain. You can dress them up in costumes and put them here and there in scenic locations, with Chinese tour guides explaining that they're recreating the former Tibetan culture for the viewing pleasure of the tourists. The PRC can supplement their budget! I'm sure assimilating Tibet and Tibetans against their will must be very expensive. After all, China built that terribly expensive railroad up into Tibet. I know it was for the good of the Tibetan people. Terribly unfair for them not to appreciate the gesture.
Impeach Bush.

It's is unfair, but much better than stay as the situation is right now. Let's face it, China has the power, usually power talks, not morality. It'll be very fortunate already if Tibetans are allowed to leave, even that is a slim to none possibility, and dont forget the fact that those democracy(to their own people) countries won't accept 2.5M out of nowhere.

It is just one chapter in the long process of racial integration, the problem now it's that in Tibet, 90-95% population are still Tibetan. While most wealthy ones are all Han people, it's gonna cause problems, just like years ago in Indonesia "some" Chinese Indonesian were killed and raped.
As far as I know, Tibetans pays less tax, allowed to have more than one kids, easier to get higher education(lower marks required), but when most Han people moved to Tibet are rich ones, it's gonna be hard for them to deal with the inequality. And when people aren't happy about their bank account balance, culture difference/religion/racism are all going to be major problems.

What everyone wish is that someway along the future, a big Tibetan company will rise, it will give hope to the Tibetan society, and few more rich Tibetans will emerge. It will easier the tension between Tibetan and other races, and while Tibet became a richer province, more people will be willing to move in, which is the key to racial integration, balance between races.
But considering Tibet's ****ty geographical disadvantage, I doubt that province will ever be richer than the others.

So here we are again, stucked. That's why I suggest "free Tibetans". That 90-95% is not going to die because of "diseases" brought from euro...I mean Chinese people, so why not let the ones that wish to leave, have that as an option? Immigration is shady business anyway, with Himalayas standing tall, India can have all the "spies" they want...

Winrockets

03-16-2008, 09:44 AM

realrockyboy

03-16-2008, 10:55 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo

CNN would never show this....

yuantian

03-16-2008, 11:02 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo

CNN would never show this....

they had really nice PR. basically painted a different image. now everyone thinks they are the good guys. :rolleyes: but in reality, they represent the high class only.

MR. MEOWGI

03-16-2008, 12:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo

CNN would never show this....

China wont even show Pirates of the Caribbean...

I seriously think that the genocide supporters should be banned from this site.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 01:04 PM

China wont even show Pirates of the Caribbean...

I seriously think that the genocide supporters should be banned from this site.

nobody is supporting genocide. the **** is wrong with you. i consider that statement a personal attack to some of the earlier posters. peace is always the way to go. besides, are you the one saying how US is all great? and now you are saying, some of the earlier posters shouldn't have the rights for freedom of speech?

wizkid83

03-16-2008, 01:11 PM

How do you even the playing field? The Tibetans, like all other minority races in China, are already given loads of special advantages. For example, they are not subjected to the one-child-policy, their high school graduates are given 10 extra points in the nation wide college entrance examination, and their regions are always given a lot of financial assistance annually -- Tibet hasn't contributed to the tax revenue of the central government for ages, and it has received hundreds of millions of dollars of assistance every year.

You just have to look at the current infrastructure in Tibet to see how much money and effort has been poured into it. Take the recently completed Qinghai-Tibet railway for example, it cost China 3.68 billion dollars and 5 years to complete, considering that the GDP of Tibet in 2006 was around 4 billion dollars, the money had to have come from somewhere else in China.

Actually, how much money is poured into Tibet is probably not the best pure judgement. What I want to know is who is the PRIMARY benefeciary of the construction. The Panama Canal cost the U.S. a lot of money to make, but a the fruit went mostly to U.S. also, thus the protest and the eventual handover.

So the same thing can a be asked about Tibet, are the heads of the tourism and trade industry (as well as all comparable senior positions) in Tibet held by Hans or Tibetans, I don't know and I'm here more to seek knowledge. What I'm trying to say is if an average Tibetan now have the means to open a small shop on the side of the road, sees the opening the supermarket next door by a Han and he sees little or no chance of doing that, then you have a problem.

You mention test scores and I think that's a good start. I'm hoping that comaprable scholorships and stipens are gonna come with it (you can't just let them be in the college easier, but also offer the means to actually go to the college). Kind of like the affirmative action in the U.S., if .1% of aspiring Han youths can get into QinHua, atleast .5% of Tibetans need to be able to, and .2% would get a full ride (free tuition plus living expenses). Same thing for companies, atleast those in Tibet. The better positions and jobs need to have an accurate representation of the demographic break down with in the region. I.E. if Tibetans make up 50% of the population with in Tibet, then they need to (or have programs to actively get to) be at a point where they makeup 50% of the heads of the corporations/companies/etc.

Personally, I think things like that will make the situation in Tibet smoother. I don't claim to know much about Tibet, so informations around economic/educational/social/financial break down of Tibet by Han and Tibetans would be great. I actually don't care much about editorials (from both sides), show me hard numbers.

wizkid83

03-16-2008, 01:16 PM

The kid, who has been brainwashed by Western media propaganda, doesn't know what he was talking about on Tibet.

Talking about me? I'm not saying free Tibet, I'm merely stating that a pragmatic approach calls for China to really improve the life of an average Tibetan (something atleast on the level, and possibly even more than the Affirmative Action in the U.S.).

realrockyboy

03-16-2008, 01:17 PM

1945, the population in Tibet was reported - by Kuomintang, current in Taiwan, not the Chinese Government, as 847,000. However, they didn't include part of Shinjiang, which according to Dalai Lama and his followers, part of Tibet. So let's include that, the number would be 1.3M.

Now, after you so called "genocide", after years and years, the population of Tebetans in Tibet, is around 2.5M, which is a bit shy to 95% of the total population there.

So please tell me, what kind of genocide, will almost double heir population??? And always remember, Tibetans never suffer from any "diseases" that will kill 90% of its people.
And one plus to that, Dalai Lama accuses the Chinese Government for "culture genocide", and I'm not sure which part of culture he refers. The slavery or buddhism?

Do your homework next time.

yeo

03-16-2008, 01:25 PM

China wont even show Pirates of the Caribbean...

I seriously think that the genocide supporters should be banned from this site.

LOL, apparently for some people, freedom of speech only exists in catchy slogans.

Speaking of "genocide", I see old Dalai is on CNN again mumbling about "cultural genocide" by the Chinese. He used to claim a real genocide in Tibet. Apparently that one didn't fly since the Tibetan population has actually grown two-fold since the 1950s, so now he has coined a new phrase, "cultural genocide". But what the heck is a "cultural genocide" anyway? If he means the traditonal Tibetan culture is being overwhelmed by the modern consumer culture, stuff like i-pods and PS3s, shouldn't he be blaming the West instead, who invented that culture? If he means the destruction of the old feudal lamaist theocratic society where 90% of the Tibetan population were serfs, I say Bravo China, keep up the "genocide"!

wnes

03-16-2008, 01:28 PM

Talking about me? I'm not saying free Tibet, I'm merely stating that a pragmatic approach calls for China to really improve the life of an average Tibetan (something atleast on the level, and possibly even more than the Affirmative Action in the U.S.).

Unlike the civil unrests in other parts of China's rural areas, economic inequality is not the cause for recent riots in the Tibetan regions.

Tibetans benefit far more from PRC's economic, educational, and social policies than minorities in the US from the Affirmative Actions.

Do your research, kid.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 01:32 PM

why are western religious people all around the world trying to convert other people? isn't that "cultural genocide" as well? what about how some people say there are no women's rights in Islam? isn't that trying to change what other people believe? the point is, every culture needs to progress to stay in the game. you can't stay in the primitive stage. that's what the lamas are asking, to go back to the old days, where their people didn't have enough to eat.

Ottomaton

03-16-2008, 01:41 PM

Some posters seem to want to make this out to be a two option scenario - either become Han or live in the 12th Century. There are, in fact, other options. Nepal, for instance, was dirt poor and medieval in the 1940's. It would probably be a reasonable analog for Tibet. As it turns out, without the Chinese, they seem to be doing an acceptable job of evolving and keeping pace with the modern world all on their own, without China to 'help' them along.

There is no reason to believe that Tibet, had it remained separate from China, would not have advanced of its own accord. In fact, to try and make the claim that they would revert to feudal times is more than a bit silly. And if you want to extend that logic elsewhere, it makes for compelling reasons for the USA to invade everywhere in the world, pour our money in, and bring them up to our standard of living. Clearly this is idiotic.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 01:44 PM

Ottomaton

03-16-2008, 01:45 PM

do you know the geography there? you do realize that, there is no way out, except from the east. there is no modernization there without the help from the east.

Nepal seems to have done alright without becoming part of India. Are you familiar with Nepal? How is that different?

Also, China is to Nepal, as India is to Tibet (on the other side of the Himalayas) but China manages to have a significant trading and cultural relationship with Nepal through Tibet. If goods and culture can go over the mountians in one direction, they can go the other as well.

MFW

03-16-2008, 01:49 PM

Actually, how much money is poured into Tibet is probably not the best pure judgement. What I want to know is who is the PRIMARY benefeciary of the construction. The Panama Canal cost the U.S. a lot of money to make, but a the fruit went mostly to U.S. also, thus the protest and the eventual handover.

Reality is never that simple. Know why? Even if they say outright, "no money for ethnic Hans, only Tibetans," it would still depend upon whether ethnic Tibetans are motivated (among other things) to take advantage of the handouts.

Furthermore, infrastructure developments, health care, better communication, etc benefits everybody, not just ethnic Hans.

So the same thing can a be asked about Tibet, are the heads of the tourism and trade industry (as well as all comparable senior positions) in Tibet held by Hans or Tibetans, I don't know and I'm here more to seek knowledge. What I'm trying to say is if an average Tibetan now have the means to open a small shop on the side of the road, sees the opening the supermarket next door by a Han and he sees little or no chance of doing that, then you have a problem.

That line just won't fly. Ethnic Hans are on average, much wealthier and educated than ethnic Tibetans. The ethnic Tibetan may want to own a supermarket chain, but does not have the education, finances, connections and willingness to work hard to have the same. Those things go beyond preferential policies and won't fundamentally change no matter how favourable the policy and how much money is spent until years, perhaps decades from now.

You mention test scores and I think that's a good start. I'm hoping that comaprable scholorships and stipens are gonna come with it (you can't just let them be in the college easier, but also offer the means to actually go to the college). Kind of like the affirmative action in the U.S.,

See above. It is precisely for this reason that I think Affirmative Action is one of the dumbest ideas out there.

if .1% of aspiring Han youths can get into QinHua, atleast .5% of Tibetans need to be able to, and .2% would get a full ride (free tuition plus living expenses). Same thing for companies, atleast those in Tibet. The better positions and jobs need to have an accurate representation of the demographic break down with in the region. I.E. if Tibetans make up 50% of the population with in Tibet, then they need to (or have programs to actively get to) be at a point where they makeup 50% of the heads of the corporations/companies/etc.

No offense or anything, I honestly think you are trying to be fair in your post, but I think that is misguided. What precisely makes the poor ethnic Tibetans, down and out on their luck, more entitled than poor ethnic Hans, down and out on their luck? Why should 0.5% of Tibetans enter Qinghua, 0.2% getting free rides when 0.1% ethnic Hans (the actual figure is actually lower) get to do so?

The thing I see is that most people seem to deem fair as a (let's use a pension fund term) defined benefit plan. Doesn't matter what you put in, everybody gets the same. So if you are uneducated, poor and not willing to work, you get the same as someone who is educated, a bit wealtheir and willing to work?

It of course, all depends on your definition of "fair" and there are arguments in favour of either, but I would argue the far more fair system is a defined contribution plan. Ethnic Tibetans already get preferential treatment, how much more are you willing to prop them up? When is it enough? Where does it end? When they have the same income and savings as ethnic Hans no matter what?

Personally, I think things like that will make the situation in Tibet smoother. I don't claim to know much about Tibet, so informations around economic/educational/social/financial break down of Tibet by Han and Tibetans would be great. I actually don't care much about editorials (from both sides), show me hard numbers.

Resentment goes both ways. If what you propose comes true, it will simply flip from one side to the other. Ethnic Hans will say, we work hard, we are better educated, but we get shafted. That is actually already true among a large group of ethnic Hans, due to what they see (rightfully) as preferential treatment. They think they are condemned to poverty while others at least get help.

The other thing to note is that, numbers and stats are never a replacement for good judgment, as long as it is carried in a manner that minimizes bias.

MFW

03-16-2008, 01:55 PM

Nepal seems to have done alright without becoming part of India. Are you familiar with Nepal? How is that different?

What about Nepal? It was dirt poor and it still is dirt poor, with an occasional rebel attack here and there.

Geopolitically, Nepal may also be much closer to China than to India.

KingCheetah

03-16-2008, 01:57 PM

The Independent nation of Taiwan is thriving without the support of China ~ Tibet is only being held back by so-called Chinese assistance.

China wouldn't want it any other way.

MFW

03-16-2008, 02:00 PM

The Independent nation of Taiwan is thriving without the support of China ~ Tibet is only being held back by so-called Chinese assistance.

China wouldn't want it any other way.

The government of the province of Taiwan looted 90%+ of China's national savings when it fled. It was then a Cold War bastion, build up by the west, US and UK in particular. It is also in a strategic important location.

None of which is true with regards to Tibet.

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:00 PM

You have to also consider the large proprotion of Tibetans who are lamas, who are essentially non-productive members of society. Tibetans' deep religious beliefs also hinder their economic development. When a Chinese make some money, he would open a shop to make more money. When a Tibetan makes some money, he would make an offering to a temple to thank the Buddah. So it's no secret why Han Chinese always out-competes Tibetans. Heck, the Chinese are pretty much out-competing everybody in the world nowadays. And that breeds resentment. See the race riots targetting ethnic Chinese in Indonesia a few years back. The root cause behind what's happening in Tibet now is essentially no different.

Ottomaton

03-16-2008, 02:00 PM

What about Nepal? It was dirt poor and it still is dirt poor, with an occasional rebel attack here and there.

Per capita income in Nepal is higher than in reported (wealthier city regions) of Tibet. Just a couple of hundred dollars difference, but its still there.

Geopolitically, Nepal may also be much closer to China than to India.

Good point. Thus a free Tibet, on the other side of the Himalayas from India, could succeed without necessarily assimilating themselves into China. Thanks for helping me with my point about the supposed 'locked in' nature of Tibet having to deal only with China.

MFW

03-16-2008, 02:01 PM

The province of Taiwan is also economically dependent upon Mainland China, and will be more so in the future.

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:02 PM

Nepal seems to have done alright without becoming part of India. Are you familiar with Nepal? How is that different?

Also, China is to Nepal, as India is to Tibet (on the other side of the Himalayas) but China manages to have a significant trading and cultural relationship with Nepal through Tibet. If goods and culture can go over the mountians in one direction, they can go the other as well.

From what I know, Nepal is dirt poor and has a violent rebellion ongoing.

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:05 PM

The Independent nation of Taiwan is thriving without the support of China ~ Tibet is only being held back by so-called Chinese assistance.

China wouldn't want it any other way.

Independent or not, it's just retarded to compare Taiwan and Tibet. And as someone has already mentioned, Taiwan is very economically dependent on China nowadays.

Ottomaton

03-16-2008, 02:07 PM

Independent or not, it's just retarded to compare Taiwan and Tibet. And as someone has already mentioned, Taiwan is very economically dependent on China nowadays.

They are actually much more dependent on the USA and Japan for imports. They do export to China more than anywhere else, but it isn't some insanely exclusive trading relationship. As a percentage of imports and exports, the association is smaller than that between the USA and Canada.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 02:13 PM

They are actually much more dependent on the USA and Japan for imports. They do export to China more than anywhere else, but it isn't some insanely exclusive trading relationship. As a percentage of imports and exports, the association is smaller than that between the USA and Canada.

massive amount of their exports goes to mainland due to cultural similarities. i am not talking about high tech stuff. majority of their stuff are produce and such that mainlanders consume. if they don't want it, they are piled with **** that nobody wants.

MFW

03-16-2008, 02:14 PM

Per capita income in Nepal is higher than in reported (wealthier city regions) of Tibet. Just a couple of hundred dollars difference, but its still there.

Tibet is 83 times the size of Nepal, mostly vast open land. Infrastructural development come expectedly slower.

It also has 1/11th the population of Nepal in two regions whether virtually all economic output is based on manpower.

Nepal may also have been historically wealthier.

Good point. Thus a free Tibet, on the other side of the Himalayas from India, could succeed without necessarily assimilating themselves into China. Thanks for helping me with my point about the supposed 'locked in' nature of Tibet having to deal only with China.

Contrary to what you'd like to think, economic aid doesn't come free. If Tibet was not part of China, the Chinese would be under no obligation to develop the area. In fact, one reason why Nepal went from economically impotent to slightly less economically impotent was due to trade with China.

Sudan is the same way. Would China be building the infrastructure in Sudan if its government does not have friendly relations (and of course, oil) with China?

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:14 PM

Per capita income in Nepal is higher than in reported (wealthier city regions) of Tibet. Just a couple of hundred dollars difference, but its still there.

That is incorrect. Nepal's per capita GDP is only $210, whereas the Tibet Autonomous Region's per-capita GDP is over $1000. I think you were mistakenly comparing PPP (purchasing power parity) figures for Nepal (which is over $1100) with international conversion-rate figures for Tibet. I don't have the PPP figures for Tibet, but it can be expected to be in the $4000 - $5000 range, far higher than Nepal.

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:17 PM

They are actually much more dependent on the USA and Japan for imports. They do export to China more than anywhere else, but it isn't some insanely exclusive trading relationship. As a percentage of imports and exports, the association is smaller than that between the USA and Canada.

That's because they restrict imports from China, and Taiwan's is an export-driven economy. Without exports to China, Taiwan's economy would be in a recession for the past few years. But any way, all this is off-topic. Like I said, it's retarded to compare the economic situation of Taiwan and that of Tibet.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 02:22 PM

back to topic. vast majority of people there, did not join the mob. it's mostly low incomes and thugs. those with regular jobs and decent income don't see the point to join and mess up their life.

RocketsDream

03-16-2008, 02:23 PM

The Independent nation of Taiwan is thriving without the support of China ~ Tibet is only being held back by so-called Chinese assistance.

Repeating the same thing 1000 times in the cyber space doesn't make what you say is true. If you were the President then maybe what you say will be influential. Too bad you are just a nobody.

By the way, it shows how ignorant you are to say Taiwan is thriving without China. Even the current Taiwanese President is worried that Taiwan is getting too much dependent on China economically that the Taiwan economy will be in chao if China stops the money pipe. That's why he and his party has been urging the investors to stay in Taiwan or explore investment opportunities in other countries. You really need to make yourself more familiar with what you want to talk about.

MFW

03-16-2008, 02:24 PM

They are actually much more dependent on the USA and Japan for imports. They do export to China more than anywhere else, but it isn't some insanely exclusive trading relationship. As a percentage of imports and exports, the association is smaller than that between the USA and Canada.

Is there any reason that you group two countries (US and Japan, even Canada) when mentioning trade links with Taiwan? Then how about this, Taiwan is far more economically dependent on Mainland China + Hong Kong + Macau + South Korea.

The simple fact is, Mainland China surpassed Japan as Taiwan's largest trade partner. It also surpassed the US long ago.

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:26 PM

That is incorrect. Nepal's per capita GDP is only $210, whereas the Tibet Autonomous Region's per-capita GDP is over $1000. I think you were mistakenly comparing PPP (purchasing power parity) figures for Nepal (which is over $1100) with international conversion-rate figures for Tibet. I don't have the PPP figures for Tibet, but it can be expected to be in the $4000 - $5000 range, far higher than Nepal.

Actually I was too conservative. Tibet's per-capita GDP (conversion rate) for 2006, the last year with available figures, was over $1300. Nepal's figure for the same year was only $311. And Nepal ranks among the lowest in human development indicators in the world. So no, Nepal is not a good example for your theory.

MFW

03-16-2008, 02:26 PM

Ottomaton

03-16-2008, 02:28 PM

That is incorrect. Nepal's per capita GDP is only $210, whereas the Tibet Autonomous Region's per-capita GDP is over $1000.

According to my sources you are comparing flat per capita GDP of Nepal with PPP of Tibet.

The sources I have place PPP in Nepal between $1100-$2000, and PPP in Tibet in the range of $1000-$1200

yuantian

03-16-2008, 02:28 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1byUvGy1f4

:(

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:32 PM

According to my sources you are comparing flat per capita GDP of Nepal with PPP of Tibet.

The sources I have place PPP in Nepal between $1100-$2000, and PPP in Tibet in the range of $1000-$1200

I get my figures here (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200706/22/eng20070622_386817.html) for the 2006 figures. Tibet per capita GDP was over 10,000 RMB that year. Note that the RMB:US$ conversion rate was around 7.5:1 that year.

You can also find the 2005 figure here (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-05/31/content_447362.htm) .

yeo

03-16-2008, 02:36 PM

According to my sources you are comparing flat per capita GDP of Nepal with PPP of Tibet.

The sources I have place PPP in Nepal between $1100-$2000, and PPP in Tibet in the range of $1000-$1200

I don't have PPP figures for Tibet, since such calculations are only done for countries, not regions. But note that China's regular GDP was 2.68 trillion in 2006, but its PPP figures was as high as $10.17 trillion. So we can expect Tibet's PPP figures to be well over $5000.

Ottomaton

03-16-2008, 02:37 PM

Is there any reason that you group two countries (US and Japan, even Canada) when mentioning trade links with Taiwan? Then how about this, Taiwan is far more economically dependent on Mainland China + Hong Kong + Macau + South Korea.

I'm sorry. What I was trying to say is that Taiwan imports more from Japan and imports roughly the same amount to marginally more from the US than from China. I was not combining.

The simple fact is, Mainland China surpassed Japan as Taiwan's largest trade partner. It also surpassed the US long ago.

Mostly on exports, not imports. If you isolate just imports, Taiwan has larger trading partners.

The relationship is not so tight that it is abnormal compared to the trading relationship between two independent countries, like the USA and Canada. Or Japan and South Korea. That is all I'm saying. It's a tight relationship, but not as uniquely tight as I felt the poster was implying.

MFW

03-16-2008, 02:37 PM

According to my sources you are comparing flat per capita GDP of Nepal with PPP of Tibet.

The sources I have place PPP in Nepal between $1100-$2000, and PPP in Tibet in the range of $1000-$1200

That is incorrect. He is comparing the per capita GDP of Tibet:
http://kuching2.mofcom.gov.cn/aarticle/chinanews/200506/20050600107955.html

to the per capita GDP/GNI of Nepal:
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/nepal_nepal_statistics.html

yuantian

03-16-2008, 02:41 PM

LET'S GO ROCKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EAT THEM ALIVE. GO UNCLE D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MFW

03-16-2008, 02:42 PM

I'm sorry. What I was trying to say is that Taiwan imports more from Japan and imports roughly the same amount to marginally more from the US than from China. I was not combining.

Mostly on exports, not imports. If you isolate just imports, Taiwan has larger trading partners.

The relationship is not so tight that it is abnormal compared to the trading relationship between two independent countries, like the USA and Canada. Or Japan and South Korea. That is all I'm saying. It's a tight relationship, but not as uniquely tight as I felt the poster was implying.

He didn't have to imply anything. Trade between Mainland China and Taiwan went from virtually non-existent to the largest. If not for Lee Tenghui and Chen Shuibian's trade restrictions and denial of the so called three links, it would have been even bigger, including import-wise.

There is no reason to separate it into export/import categories when you compare bilateral trade relations.

RocketsDream

03-16-2008, 02:51 PM

LET'S GO ROCKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EAT THEM ALIVE. GO UNCLE D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, that's about the only thing that every poster in this thread will agree on.

GO ROCKETS!!!!! BEAT THE LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

adoo

03-16-2008, 02:59 PM

"....Technically there're 56 races in China, and I'd say about 50 of them, their people looked exactly just like Han people. The method is proven to be working, and I can totally understand Tibetans don't want to be a part of it......... actually there are ~ 56 ethnic groups in China, all of them are of the Asian race.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 03:07 PM

actually there are ~ 56 ethnic groups in China, all of them are of the Asian race.

no, 2 of those 56 are white. one of those central asian nomads, forgot was the kazaks or the tajiks or the other. they are whites. also the russians who after taking manchu's land migrated there.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 03:07 PM

Wow, that's about the only thing that every poster in this thread will agree on.

GO ROCKETS!!!!! BEAT THE LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

there maybe some laker spies here. :D

adoo

03-16-2008, 03:26 PM

langal

03-16-2008, 04:09 PM

China wont even show Pirates of the Caribbean...

I seriously think that the genocide supporters should be banned from this site.

i dunno if you're being sarcastic here.

your first statement decried China's lack of openness.

your second statement supports such a restriction.

also - claiming "genocide" is pretty lame. makes me want to pull out my "race card".

yuantian

03-16-2008, 04:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo

CNN would never show this....

youtube is so fake. they stopped the view numbers on this video. stopped loading comments. what a bunch of ****ing losers. where the **** is freedom of speech? america is the definition of double standard. book it.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 04:27 PM

youtube is so fake. they stopped the view numbers on this video. stopped loading comments. what a bunch of ****ing losers. where the **** is freedom of speech? america is the definition of double standard. book it.

lol, after so many complaints. youtube renewed the counts. not sure about the deleted comments though.

gotoloveit2

03-16-2008, 05:04 PM

The Tibetians are one of few ethnic groups not subject to China's one-child policy.

Why so? I thought the ultimate goal of the PRC is "genocide". ;)

hooroo

03-16-2008, 05:11 PM

http://www.keyetv.com/news/world/story.aspx?content_id=86e7960d-4248-47c5-9fa0-aa9da0224195
DHARAMSALA, India (Reuters) - The Dalai Lama called on Sunday for an investigation into China's tough response to protests in Tibet, and whether it was deliberate "cultural genocide".

The comments from Tibet's spiritual leader came as police and troops locked down Lhasa, the capital of Tibet, two days after street protests against Chinese rule that the region's government-in-exile said had killed 80 people.

"Whether the Chinese government admits or not, there is a problem. The problem is the nation with ancient cultural heritage is actually facing serious dangers," he told a news conference at his base of Dharamsala in northern India.

"Whether intentionally or unintentionally, somewhere cultural genocide is taking place", he said, adding that he wanted an investigation into the clashes.

The Dalai Lama, saying he felt "helpless", added that the international community had the "moral responsibility" to remind China to be a good host for the Olympic Games. He added that China should host the Games.

"So now we really need miracle power," he told a conference often interspersed with laughter from the exiled Tibetan leader.

There was no immediate comment from China's foreign ministry to his statements.

Monks first took to the streets of Tibet last Monday to mark the 49th anniversary of an earlier uprising, and protests soon spread to adjoining regions inhabited by pockets of Tibetans.

China has said at least 10 "innocent civilians" died, mostly in fires lit by rioters in Lhasa on Friday.

BLOW TO OLYMPICS

The convulsion of Tibetan anger at the Chinese presence in the region was a sharp blow to Beijing's preparations for the Olympic Games in August, when China wants to showcase prosperity and unity.

China has declared a "people's war" of security and propaganda against support for the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists, underlining that it will not heed calls from around the globe for a lenient response to the riots.

India hosts the Dalai Lama in the India city of Dharamsala, seat of the self-proclaimed Tibetan government-in-exile and the scene of daily protests in the past week.

Indian police this week arrested Tibetan protesters trying to march to the Chinese border, but a new group of protesters have now said they were marching to the border, challenging again the Indian government.

New Delhi is treading a delicate balance with its giant neighbor with whom it is trying to expand diplomatic and trade ties after decades of rivalry that included a brief war in 1962.

In New Delhi on Sunday, dozens of Tibetan protesters sat in a street near parliament and shouted slogans against China.

In Dharamsala's main Buddhist temple on Sunday, about 1,500 people gathered, including many monks, to listen to speeches from Tibetan exile leaders.

Chinese flags were laid out on the main road to the temple, forcing cars and lorries to drive over them. They were quickly covered in muddy footprints and tire tracks.

"We are showing solidarity for people inside Tibet. We are the last hope for the people inside," said Sonam Dorjee, a protester leading a hunger strike near the Dalai Lama's house.

wizkid83

03-16-2008, 05:30 PM

Unlike the civil unrests in other parts of China's rural areas, economic inequality is not the cause for recent riots in the Tibetan regions.

Tibetans benefit far more from PRC's economic, educational, and social policies than minorities in the US from the Affirmative Actions.

Do your research, kid.

Everything is relative, what I want to see is how much better Tibetan's financial numbers relative to the Hans overtime in Tibet (I don't know where to start and since I'm not paid/graded for this research, if you can kindly point me to the actual numbers, it'd be greatly appreciated). But really we're arguing just a part of my original post and it seems you're missing the overall message of my first post.

Please re-read my original post and the tone of it. It was partially satirical (the Native American refrence) to American's own past policies. However, I am also belief that the mass are sheeps and can be lead to conform, especially when it preys on basic human flaws (greed, envy, fear, and lust). I'm also merely pointing out that certain change in policies to prey on those basic flaws can induce social pacifism. The policies in Tibet is obviously not working right now, it's not about right or wrong. Merely what can and can not work. For whatever reason, things aren't working right now, instead of wasting energy debating what is right or wrong action, the debate should be what can paicfy the region and improve (or the perceived) quality of life over there.

My posts are layered like a wedding cake, you gotta start looking for meanings with meanigs :D . Please don't pick individual parts you find contentious and drive argument in that direction. Internalize the message for the overall theme. If there are parts that I can be more clear about let me know, I do have a tendency to ramble sometimes.

To MFW, majority of the arguments you posted sounds like sound bites from U.S. conservatives on why Blacks and Hispanics fail in the U.S. and that certains social programs (such as affirmative action) needs to be cut. i don't agree with it and believe that the structure of the society is only as strong as its weakiest link. If that link doesn't hold up, even a small minority group and bring unrest/trouble for a much larger region. If that link is weak, the rest of society, even out of its own self interest, needs to strengthen it.

nyquil82

03-16-2008, 05:30 PM

I guess giving them a bunch of casino licenses doesn't work over there?

Northside Storm

03-16-2008, 05:43 PM

i dunno if you're being sarcastic here.

your first statement decried China's lack of openness.

your second statement supports such a restriction.

also - claiming "genocide" is pretty lame. makes me want to pull out my "race card".

Difference between China and Clutchfans...

China=Dictatorship
Clutchfans=Virtual Kingdom

Whee.

Also, for all those claiming the double standard of the "Western" media/world; no matter how you slice it, you're using excuses to justify China's atrocious human rights record. Yes, I said atrocious and I can get the Amnesty figures etc. to prove it if I have to. Point is, China's human rights record is very sketchy, so there has to be SOME attention paid to this matter with regards to how China will treat the rioters.

langal

03-16-2008, 06:36 PM

Difference between China and Clutchfans...

China=Dictatorship
Clutchfans=Virtual Kingdom

Whee.

Also, for all those claiming the double standard of the "Western" media/world; no matter how you slice it, you're using excuses to justify China's atrocious human rights record. Yes, I said atrocious and I can get the Amnesty figures etc. to prove it if I have to. Point is, China's human rights record is very sketchy, so there has to be SOME attention paid to this matter with regards to how China will treat the rioters.

You misinterpret my point. My point is that a lot of the "glasnost" types here only want to hear their point of view. Then they have the audacity to say we are "pro-genocide".

Northside Storm

03-16-2008, 06:41 PM

You misinterpret my point. My point is that a lot of the "glasnost" types here only want to hear their point of view. Then they have the audacity to say we are "pro-genocide".

Fine.

But I think you might be missing a point as well. Well, two. The first being that hyperbole rules the internet, the second being that China has such a shady record with the media/human rights (ex: Tiananmen Square->Google China) that it is very hard for even an impartial observer not to doubt the way facts are being presented to us in this case.

Deckard

03-16-2008, 06:49 PM

Repeating the same thing 1000 times in the cyber space doesn't make what you say is true. If you were the President then maybe what you say will be influential. Too bad you are just a nobody.

By the way, it shows how ignorant you are to say Taiwan is thriving without China. Even the current Taiwanese President is worried that Taiwan is getting too much dependent on China economically that the Taiwan economy will be in chao if China stops the money pipe. That's why he and his party has been urging the investors to stay in Taiwan or explore investment opportunities in other countries. You really need to make yourself more familiar with what you want to talk about.
KC has been here about 6 years. With hyperbole practitioner extraordinaire B-Bob and world traveler, ace photographer SamFisher, the three are the snitzit when it comes to the latest fur fashions. KingCheetah is a somebody here, if anyone really is. (I always thought we were ones and zeros... some have more zeros than others, of course)

What's your gig? (I go after replicants)

Impeach Bush.

yeo

03-16-2008, 07:03 PM

Point is, China's human rights record is very sketchy, so there has to be SOME attention paid to this matter with regards to how China will treat the rioters.

Good thing you are acknowledging they were "rioters", not "peaceful protestors". Well, rioters will be treated the way rioters are treated worldwide. Oh, we might give them a little "waterboarding" too, since it's not torture according to the US government.

Northside Storm

03-16-2008, 07:08 PM

Good thing you are acknowledging they were "rioters", not "peaceful protestors". Well, rioters will be treated the way rioters are treated worldwide. Oh, we might give them a little "waterboarding" too, since it's not torture according to the US government.

Seriously, wth, stop using other gouvernments/countries to defend your position. :/

I'm Canadian. Come up with something there.

Maybe China will..."Oka Crisis" them Tibetans? Yeah, we're already past that stage XD

...Also, while I think things might be a bit heated, I think Tibetans are doing the right thing. I might have classified them as "rioters", but just like the race riots in France and in LA, I think there are very legitimate reasons as to why such violence would happen. And I think it'd be in China's best intrest to go towards solving those issues instead of whitewashing it and hiding it away.

yeo

03-16-2008, 07:11 PM

China has declared a "people's war" of security and propaganda against support for the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists, underlining that it will not heed calls from around the globe for a lenient response to the riots.

"People's war" in action. Civilians volunteers receiving riot equipment. It might surprise some people here that most of these volunteers are actually Tibetans.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/80266847.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/80266739.jpg

People returning to the streets. Life is gradually returning to normal even though scars remain, much to the disappointment of the Dollies I am sure.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/untitled.jpg

yuantian

03-16-2008, 07:15 PM

Seriously, wth, stop using other gouvernments/countries to defend your position. :/

I'm Canadian. Come up with something there.

Maybe China will..."Oka Crisis" them Tibetans? Yeah, we're already past that stage XD

...Also, while I think things might be a bit heated, I think Tibetans are doing the right thing. I might have classified them as "rioters", but just like the race riots in France and in LA, I think there are very legitimate reasons as to why such violence would happen. And I think it'd be in China's best intrest to go towards solving those issues instead of whitewashing it and hiding it away.

i think we've mentioned earlier that the best solution is to have social and racial balance. that way, everyone will be happy and peaceful. after all, no sane people in the world want violence. but, organizing riots, does not help anything. long live peace. :D

Northside Storm

03-16-2008, 07:22 PM

i think we've mentioned earlier that the best solution is to have social and racial balance. that way, everyone will be happy and peaceful. after all, no sane people in the world want violence. but, organizing riots, does not help anything. long live peace. :D

See, the thing about social and racial balence and stuff mentioned (yes, I have been skimming but I think I have the gist of it) is that it sounds like some far-away dreamland.

And given how China is reacting to the situation, we're a lot further from that dreamland then the Knicks are to being a legitimate NBA team. ;)

I think the world would be a lot better place if China just fessed up and admitted that what it is doing in Tibet is wrong, just like how America fessed up about blacks and natives. I'd agree with you that riots don't help the cause, but given how Tibet has been ignored the last couple of years, something should've happened. Violence without cause is despicable. Violence with cause can be a head-turner and one of the greatest motivators of change. China needs to reconize that there is a problem...and that the problem can't just be ignored and "social balenced" away.

yeo

03-16-2008, 07:29 PM

I'm Canadian. Come up with something there.

Canadian? Well, Free Quebec!

I know, I know, I am harping on other peoples' sins again. It's just that I have this little problem with self-righteous hypocrites, that's all.

Northside Storm

03-16-2008, 07:38 PM

Canadian? Well, Free Quebec!

I know, I know, I am harping on other peoples' sins again. It's just that I have this little problem with self-righteous hypocrites, that's all.

I should've added...I'm from Quebec XP

But yeah, I can see where you're coming from. Can't speak of other people, but myself, I don't really get into this to say Canada is better then China...just that I reconize China has it's virtues and it's faults and I feel Tibet is one of the faults...but I realize some of us, myself included, might sound a bit too self-righteous. The Internet for ya :P

yuantian

03-16-2008, 07:52 PM

See, the thing about social and racial balence and stuff mentioned (yes, I have been skimming but I think I have the gist of it) is that it sounds like some far-away dreamland.

And given how China is reacting to the situation, we're a lot further from that dreamland then the Knicks are to being a legitimate NBA team. ;)

I think the world would be a lot better place if China just fessed up and admitted that what it is doing in Tibet is wrong, just like how America fessed up about blacks and natives. I'd agree with you that riots don't help the cause, but given how Tibet has been ignored the last couple of years, something should've happened. Violence without cause is despicable. Violence with cause can be a head-turner and one of the greatest motivators of change. China needs to reconize that there is a problem...and that the problem can't just be ignored and "social balenced" away.

you must haven't seen how they reacted to other riots in other parts before. i am actually surprised that they didn't act harshly. i think due to technology, and media attention, there will not be any harsh reaction.

yeo

03-16-2008, 08:12 PM

I think the world would be a lot better place if China just fessed up and admitted that what it is doing in Tibet is wrong, just like how America fessed up about blacks and natives. I'd agree with you that riots don't help the cause, but given how Tibet has been ignored the last couple of years, something should've happened. Violence without cause is despicable. Violence with cause can be a head-turner and one of the greatest motivators of change. China needs to reconize that there is a problem...and that the problem can't just be ignored and "social balenced" away.

Well, the thing is, the "Americans" never left America did they, whatever they admit or don't admit? Same as that, the Chinese are in Tibet to stay, and that's that. The Tibetans simply has to accept it.

The Dalai Lama has claimed that he accepts Chinese sovereignty, but given his history of flip-flopping on this position and the extreme vagueness of the "cultural autonomy" which he demands, I don't blame the Chinese government for being extremely skeptical. And the latest incident certainly does not help things. Anyone who believes this riot was "spontaneous" and not organized and incited by Dalai is delusional. Hundreds of people don't just show up at the same time with machetes, packs full of rocks, and molotov-cocktails "spontaneously".

I am not as pessimistic as you are. Despite the latest incident, I think China's policy of economic development and integration in Tibet is working. Tibet had been peaceful for almost 20 years before this, and it wasn't because of Dalai's kindness as some here seem to believe. It's because of a growing Tibetan middle class who are secular and has a stake in the status-quo. If you read the reports, especially the eye-witness accounts, you can tell that the majority of Tibetan society was non-particpants in the riots and expressed horror and revulsion towards the violence. A riot can be started with a few hundred hooligans, but a society's true stability rests on its middle class. I continue to believe that most Tibetans, just like the rest of us, simply want a stable and prosperous life, which China (and not Dalai) can provide. Anyway, time will tell whether I am right or wrong.

Gotta go. GOOOOO ROCKETS! :D

KingCheetah

03-16-2008, 08:12 PM

When a band comes to America from another country do they have to check the set list songs with the US government for appropriateness? Just curious -- back on topic...

There is a reason the government of Tibet continues to function outside of the country as exiles -- they understand it is only a matter of time before they return. Tibet needs only to organize a lasting rebellion against China -- these small reactionary protests while grabbing worldwide headlines were relatively minor in the grand scheme.

yeo

03-16-2008, 08:24 PM

There is a reason the government of Tibet continues to function outside of the country as exiles -- they understand it is only a matter of time before they return. Tibet needs only to organize a lasting rebellion against China -- these small reactionary protests while grabbing worldwide headlines were relatively minor in the grand scheme.

You are truly delusional. They tried that in 1959, with CIA help too, against a China which was far weaker than today, and failed miserably. There is a reason why Dalai is a "pacifist" you know. And there is a reason not a single country in the world recognizes Tibet as independent.

KingCheetah

03-16-2008, 08:50 PM

yuantian

03-16-2008, 08:53 PM

Communist land grabs of the 40s and 50s haven't been the most successful endeavor -- Tibet will join the long list of nations occupied by a communist government only to regain sovereignty after weathering the storm. If Tibet can organize a true rebellion they will greatly expedite their cause as China clearly has cold feet when it comes to retaking land they claim to own.

why are you always talking about Communist? none of us here are. :rolleyes: some of you still have really old cold war mentality. we are the new generation of oversea people.

MFW

03-16-2008, 09:40 PM

To MFW, majority of the arguments you posted sounds like sound bites from U.S. conservatives on why Blacks and Hispanics fail in the U.S. and that certains social programs (such as affirmative action) needs to be cut. i don't agree with it and believe that the structure of the society is only as strong as its weakiest link. If that link doesn't hold up, even a small minority group and bring unrest/trouble for a much larger region. If that link is weak, the rest of society, even out of its own self interest, needs to strengthen it.

Well then call me a conservative. Handouts don't bring motivation. Handouts bring a sense of entitlement. Let me ask you something in your black/Hispanics example. Are white trailer trash less entitled than black/Hispanic poors? They certainly would be among the weakest link. Affirmative Action certainly isn't propping them up the same way poor ethnic Hans aren't being propped up by inequivalent handouts.

SamFisher

03-16-2008, 09:44 PM

k. Affirmative Action certainly isn't propping them up the same way poor ethnic Hans aren't being propped up by inequivalent handouts.
bwahahaha, poor ethnic hans can't catch a break in china - with the exception of all the tax breaks, etc the government gives them to resettle in tibet, which is why they own the place now.

LIke I said before - just get it over with and slaughter or deport all the Tibetans - it's inevitable, so just nut up and do it.

wizkid83

03-16-2008, 09:51 PM

Well then call me a conservative. Handouts don't bring motivation. Handouts bring a sense of entitlement. Let me ask you something in your black/Hispanics example. Are white trailer trash less entitled than black/Hispanic poors? They certainly would be among the weakest link. Affirmative Action certainly isn't propping them up the same way poor ethnic Hans aren't being propped up by inequivalent handouts.

[me going all confucious-ish] Weakest link is not that which is made of the cheapest material, but that which is easiest to break [/me going all confucious-ish]

Mr. Brightside

03-16-2008, 10:21 PM

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080316/D8VEIL4O0.html

Why is China blocking Youtube now? Methinks they have something to hide.

yuantian

03-16-2008, 10:43 PM

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080316/D8VEIL4O0.html

Why is China blocking Youtube now? Methinks they have something to hide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo

watch this and read all the oversea people's comments. i think the reason behind it is, if people saw all the western media there will be a massive riots of nationalistic people demanding something to be done to those mobs. the government in many occasions tried to cool down the nationalism within. it's a big threat if out of control.

newplayer

03-16-2008, 11:14 PM

LIke I said before - just get it over with and slaughter or deport all the Tibetans - it's inevitable, so just nut up and do it.

:eek:

I'd like to nominate SamFisher as the winner of this year's Nobel Peace Price.

newplayer

03-16-2008, 11:23 PM

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080316/D8VEIL4O0.html

Why is China blocking Youtube now? Methinks they have something to hide.

well, my video of a bunch of tibetans beating up a non-tibetan has been deleted by youtube because it showed too much violence ... but then again hundreds of other street fighting videos are left along ... so why has the video that I posted got singled out?

wizkid83

03-16-2008, 11:34 PM

well, my video of a bunch of tibetans beating up a non-tibetan has been deleted by youtube because it showed too much violence ... but then again hundreds of other street fighting videos are left along ... so why has the video that I posted got singled out?

Dunno, get a lawyer or something and see if you have a case. Google owns it so maybe you can write some nasty letters, or start your own version of youtube (or just use toudou or something).

newplayer

03-16-2008, 11:40 PM

Dunno, get a lawyer or something and see if you have a case. Google owns it so maybe you can write some nasty letters, or start your own version of youtube (or just use toudou or something).

well, the level of violence shown in my video indeed breaches the community guide line, so from that point of view, i can see how deleting my video can be justified, my only gripe is that other videos of violence are allowed to exist ...

more videos of peaceful protests

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DU-Hhv_Ve54&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DU-Hhv_Ve54&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

on the other hand, another copy of the same video seems to have slipped through the cracks ...

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lFY1j8qs9mk&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lFY1j8qs9mk&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

wizkid83

03-17-2008, 12:01 AM

well, the level of violence shown in my video indeed breaches the community guide line, so from that point of view, i can see how deleting my video can be justified, my only gripe is that other videos of violence are allowed to exist ...

more videos of peaceful protests

Yeah, I think things Youtube and Gooogle does is more to protect itself from lawsuits more than anything, and I don't think they should delete your video. Email a compalint or something, though like all corporation, it'll probably fall on deaf years.

Ottomaton

03-17-2008, 12:37 AM

well, the level of violence shown in my video indeed breaches the community guide line, so from that point of view, i can see how deleting my video can be justified, my only gripe is that other videos of violence are allowed to exist ...

The only examine videos if someone reports them using the 'flag' button, at which point they review it to see if they fit the stated criteria. If nobody comes along and complains, then the clips are never examined. They really don't care about inappropriate content per se. They care about people who complain about inappropriate content, and all the trouble that they can cause for You Tube.

The same applies copyrighted materials. Only if a copyright holder complains do they care if you post something that is copyrighted.

RocketsDream

03-17-2008, 01:08 AM

KC has been here about 6 years. With hyperbole practitioner extraordinaire B-Bob and world traveler, ace photographer SamFisher, the three are the snitzit when it comes to the latest fur fashions. KingCheetah is a somebody here, if anyone really is. (I always thought we were ones and zeros... some have more zeros than others, of course)
[/B]

Nobody or somebody, I have shown how ignorant he is in what's happening between China and Taiwan currently. And I think he should get himself more familiar with an issue or at least know the basics before he runs his mouth on it. What's your take?

gotoloveit2

03-17-2008, 02:18 AM

An interesting read
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99feb/tibet.htm

langal

03-17-2008, 03:04 AM

An interesting read
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99feb/tibet.htm

Good post. Certainly a more complicated issue than many here would have believed. And it actually seems to be a pretty objective point of view. I would certainly have to say that the Chinese policy should not be considered genocide and any comparisons with American treatment of the Native North Americans is certainly unfounded. The PRC policy, if anything, seems far more constructive than "manifest destiny".

Mr. Brightside

03-17-2008, 04:04 AM

on the other hand, another copy of the same video seems to have slipped through the cracks ...

That is not much of a beatdown. The guy on the motorcycle could have just run away, but he just stood there. Even in rioting the Tibetans are peaceful.

newplayer

03-17-2008, 04:14 AM

That is not much of a beatdown. The guy on the motorcycle could have just run away, but he just stood there. Even in rioting the Tibetans are peaceful.

yeah, you are right.

by the way, have you seen this minor traffic accident?

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J0Qu6eyyr4c&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J0Qu6eyyr4c&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

michecon

03-17-2008, 04:20 AM

That is not much of a beatdown. The guy on the motorcycle could have just run away, but he just stood there. Even in rioting the Tibetans are peaceful.

"Free Tibet" coming from a guy like you, who comments like that, is certainly a disservice to Tibetan people. At least that's how I feel.

wizkid83

03-17-2008, 08:20 AM

An interesting read
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99feb/tibet.htm

Thanks for this post. I also liked how this try to show sort of both sides and the psychological profile of each side of conflict are awesome.

yeo

03-17-2008, 09:16 AM

:eek:

I'd like to nominate SamFisher as the winner of this year's Nobel Peace Price.

LOL, with the standards of the No-Peace Prize nowadays (Dalai? Yaser Arafat?), he would probably win too.

yeo

03-17-2008, 09:23 AM

An interesting read
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99feb/tibet.htm

Excellent read. Thanks. And thank God for the internet. It used to be that all we can get is censored news, on both sides. Now independent-thinking people can at least get the views from both sides.

"I asked about China's obligation in Tibet. The answers suggested that my students had learned more from American history than I had intended to teach. One student replied, "First, I will use my friendship to help [the Tibetans]. But if they refuse my friendship, I will use war to develop them, like the Americans did with the Indians." "

This part cracked me up, although it's pretty sad really.

CometsWin

03-17-2008, 09:49 AM

Anyone who believes this riot was "spontaneous" and not organized and incited by Dalai is delusional. Hundreds of people don't just show up at the same time with machetes, packs full of rocks, and molotov-cocktails "spontaneously".

Anyone who thinks the Dalai Lama organizes and incites violence in contravention of everything he has stood for and promoted his entire life is probably under the spell of Chinese communist propaganda, not that the Chinese would ever fuel propaganda to perpetuate religious hatred and isolate groups as cults and terrorists because they have no record of doing that... ever.

I think China's policy of economic development and integration in Tibet is working.

The world outside of China calls that policy a cultural whitewashing by force of arms or in other words a cultural genocide all in the name of faux unity.

Explain one thing for me, if China's goal is simply economic development and not cultural genocide then why has China made it illegal for Tibetans to select the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama without Chinese government approval? What part of economic development does that serve? What part of making a joke of a sacred Buddhist legacy is part of any economic development plan for the Tibetan people?

CometsWin

03-17-2008, 09:53 AM

why are you always talking about Communist? none of us here are. :rolleyes: some of you still have really old cold war mentality. we are the new generation of oversea people.

Ha, welcome to the new generation... same as the old generation.

rocketsjudoka

03-17-2008, 10:35 AM

Anyone who thinks the Dalai Lama organizes and incites violence in contravention of everything he has stood for and promoted his entire life is probably under the spell of Chinese communist propaganda, not that the Chinese would ever fuel propaganda to perpetuate religious hatred and isolate groups as cults and terrorists because they have no record of doing that... ever.

I agree but I might not go so far as saying they are under the spell of Communist propaganda but that they are looking at Dalai Lama through nationalistic lens. If you study the current Dalai Lama's history he has never advocated violence and has even gone so far as to saying that Tibet needed to be opened and in that regard it was good that the PRC came into Tibet.

I've heard the inevitable arguments from those who support the PRC position that the Dalai Lama presided over a slavery state. The current Dalai Lama has repudiated that and said that Tibet will never go back to that. He has also called for a secular government in Tibet and vowed to never return to the theocracy. What is also important to remember though is that the Dalai Lama was fifthteen when he took power and that was only due to an emergency move when the PRC troops had already entered Tibet. He never was in position to actually do anything in Tibet as once he took power the place was already under control of the PRC.

Even if you don't know anything about the Dalai Lama's history just compare the history of Tibet under the PRC with almost any other occupation conflict. Tibet has been far more peaceful compared to the Palestinian Territories, Chechnya, Northern Ireland, Turkey's Kurdish region or Spain's Basque region and Tibet has been more peaceful even while conditions have been much worse than many of those places. Without the Dalai Lama there is no telling how things might've played out in Tibet.

Explain one thing for me, if China's goal is simply economic development and not cultural genocide then why has China made it illegal for Tibetans to select the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama without Chinese government approval? What part of economic development does that serve? What part of making a joke of a sacred Buddhist legacy is part of any economic development plan for the Tibetan people?

The problem that I see, and it is reflected in many of the posts in this thread, is that the PRC is looking at this in almost totally materialistic terms. Even the Dalai Lama agrees that the PRC have brought in material improvements but the problem is that materialism only goes so far and being a spiritual people with a sense of nationalism of their own the Tibetans aren't going to be bought off with infrastructure improvements. Anyway looking at most other occupation conflicts the PRC should realize that doesn't work. Given Israelis economic might the Palestinians would be better served economically giving into the Israelis, in fact during periods of relative peace the Palestinian economy has boomed due to trade and providing labor to Israel, for most of the history of British occupation Northern Ireland is better off being part of the UK especially since up until 10 years ago Ireland was the poorest country in Western Europe. So while material improvements do go a long way towards placating people that still doesn't mean culture and nationalism don't and it would be naive of the PRC to believe that just providing material improvement will put an end to Tibetan aspirations anymore than Chinese aspirations if China was occupied by foreigners who vastly improve the Chinese standard of living.

As I said earlier though there is a solution to this situation that could greatly benefit both sides. Allow the Dalai Lama to return to Tibet and agree to his terms. The Dalai Lama is giving the PRC what they most want, keeping Tibet part of the PRC and leaving overall control of borders and trade to the PRC. In exchange for his return, some more autonomy and non-interference in religious matters. The PRC has to give up very little in exchange for addressing one of their biggest headaches. They also get a moderating leader who can help keep things calm in Tibet. The problem is though as the Dalai Lama gets older and the PRC continues to try to limit his influence in Tibet it is almost inevitable that more radical Tibetan elements will assert themselves.

Agreeing to the Dalai Lama is the best course of action for the PRC and Tibet and I hope the PRC realizes that before its too late.

ymc

03-17-2008, 10:48 AM

The PRC has to give up very little in exchange for addressing one of their biggest headaches.

If PRC allows that for Tibet, other ethnicities in China will want the same, most notably Xinjiang. So PRC does need to give up more than you think.

But PRC is smart, they know they can wait till Dalai dies and it will be another twenty or thirty years before another Dalai comes to spot light.

yeo

03-17-2008, 11:05 AM

yeo

03-17-2008, 11:14 AM

Explain one thing for me, if China's goal is simply economic development and not cultural genocide then why has China made it illegal for Tibetans to select the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama without Chinese government approval? What part of economic development does that serve? What part of making a joke of a sacred Buddhist legacy is part of any economic development plan for the Tibetan people?

Another history lesson for you. Since 1757, that's before the United States was even born by the way, the selection of Dalai and Panchen Lamas (who are equal and rival religious leaders) in Tibet had required Central government approval. The established religious process was to select several candidates, who will then draw lots from a golden urn in front of the dead Dalai or Panchen Lama's grave, under supervision from representatives of the Chinese central government, and the selected winner will gain official government approval as the next top dog. The current Dalai himself was selected by this process. It was actually the Chinese government who followed this convention in choosing their candidate for the Panchen Lama, while it was Dalai who flouted tradition by attempting to select the next Panchen Lama himself. Now Dalai is contemplating flouting tradition again by selecting the next Dalai Lama, before he himself is even dead! It's funny how "Tibetan culture and tradition" means nothing all-of-a-sudden when they don't suit his needs.

SamFisher

03-17-2008, 11:21 AM

^nice CCP version, too bad it's wrong.

yeo

03-17-2008, 11:28 AM

^nice CCP version, too bad it's wrong.

Uh, our next No-Peace prize winner. You got anything more than just claiming everything you don't agree with as "wrong"? I must say, so far you pro-Dolly posters on this board, aside from one or two exceptions, are proving very poor discussion partners, nothing but slogans and one-liners, while we are producing facts, photos, videos, and independent eye-witness accounts. About what I expected anyway. Most of the pro-Dolly crowd in the West I have had contact with cann't even find Tibet on a map. That of course does not prevent them from the absolute belief that they know better than everyone else. :rolleyes:

SamFisher

03-17-2008, 11:38 AM

Uh, our next No-Peace prize winner. You got anything more than just claiming everything you don't agree with as "wrong"? I must say, so far you pro-Dolly posters on this board, aside from one or two exceptions, are proving very poor discussion partners, nothing but slogans and one-liners, while we are producing facts, photos, videos, and independent eye-witness accounts. About what I expected anyway. Most of the pro-Dolly crowd in the West I have had contact with cann't even find Tibet on a map. That of course does not prevent them from the absolute belief that they know better than everyone else. :rolleyes:

Look up my old posts on this subject.

I love all of our brilliant chinese authorities on the subject - which are people like you who have never been to Tibet or spoken to a single Tibetan. Of course, I have, and you haven't, so I guess I'm one up on you there as well.

Anwyay, I know how this boring argument turns out. You claim to have "facts" at your disposal, consisting of nothing more than the party line, then a few posts later, you say "WELL AMERICANS INVADED THE INDIANS AND STOLE THEIR LAND!!!!"

This week has been very illustrative - it's basically shattered the CCP official party myth (repeated by many of the very pro-China nationalists posting in this thread) that Tibetans lived in happy, gratefuul subjugation to their helpful "older brother" chinese overlords. Guess that wasn't so true after all.

Like I said before - I'm tired of this whole subject. I'm tired of bogus historical explanations and mainlanders who have never set foot in Tibet making bogus explanations about te historical sovreignty of things that happened 500 years ago. None of it afects the present, which is the succesful PRC invasion and occupation of Tibet. That's just reality.

Just get it over with and kill them all. You can't have manifest destiny without breaking a few eggs.

yeo

03-17-2008, 11:44 AM

Look up my old posts on this subject.

I love all of our brilliant chinese authorities on the subject - which are people like you who have never been to Tibet or spoken to a single Tibetan. Of course, I have, and you haven't, so I guess I'm one up on you there as well.

Anwyay, I know how this boring argument turns out. You claim to have "facts" at your disposal, consisting of nothing more than the party line, then a few posts later, you say "WELL AMERICANS INVADED THE INDIANS AND STOLE THEIR LAND!!!!"

This week has been very illustrative - it's basically shattered the CCP official party myth (repeated by many of the very pro-China nationalists posting in this thread) that Tibetans lived in happy, gratefuul subjugation to their helpful "older brother" chinese overlords. Guess that wasn't so true after all.

Like I said before - I'm tired of this whole subject. I'm tired of bogus historical explanations and mainlanders who have never set foot in Tibet making bogus explanations about te historical sovreignty of things that happened 500 years ago. None of it afects the present, which is the succesful PRC invasion and occupation of Tibet. That's just reality.

Just get it over with and kill them all. You can't have manifest destiny without breaking a few eggs.

I read your whole post and didn't see anything substantive. That was a minute of my life wasted which I will never get back. It's apparent that you cann't sustain this discussion. So yes, go and sulk, that's your best option.

BTW, how do you know I have never been in Tibet? Isn't it just typical of you to make such assumptions with no basis?

Ottomaton

03-17-2008, 11:52 AM

BTW, how do you know I have never been in Tibet? Isn't it just typical of you to make such assumptions with no basis?

That is pretty amusing. You play the 'stupid westerners never been to Tibet' card, and when Sam calls you and raises, you suddently manufacture this sudden and intense moral outrage at people who make assumptions.

LOL.

Take a good look:
http://baysideproducts.com/store/images/victoria_cheval_mirror.jpg

yeo

03-17-2008, 12:05 PM

This week has been very illustrative - it's basically shattered the CCP official party myth (repeated by many of the very pro-China nationalists posting in this thread) that Tibetans lived in happy, gratefuul subjugation to their helpful "older brother" chinese overlords. Guess that wasn't so true after all.

Well, wouldn't you say it has also shattered the Dalai Lama's official myth that the Tibetans are noble non-violent pacifists?

BTW, don't put words in my mouth, I have never claimed all Tibetans are happy with Chinese rule. I am a realist. I expect some Tibetans to be very unhappy. Especially the lamas, who have had their privileged positions taken away from them. And if I were you, I wouldn't be too happy with the events of the past week yet. It's not a Tibetan vs. Chinese situation. The Tibetans themselves are split. Like I said there is a growing secular Tibetan middle class who has a stake in the staus quo and no interest in the Dalai Lama and his empty promises of the next life. Perhaps that's the "cultural genocide" Dalai was talking about. That there is a growing number of his people who no longer believe in him.

Here is a couple of examples, the lovely Alan Dawa Dolma and the great singer Han Hong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwst9gQ9Xgw)

yeo

03-17-2008, 12:11 PM

That is pretty amusing. You play the 'stupid westerners never been to Tibet' card, and when Sam calls you and raises, you suddently manufacture this sudden and intense moral outrage at people who make assumptions.

LOL.

Ah, the debating trick of the loser again, putting words in people's mouths. Where did I claim SamFisher has never been to Tibet. Over the Internet I don't even know if he is a man or a dog. I said "most of the pro-Dolly crowd in the West I have had contact with cann't even find Tibet on a map". This was a figure-of-speech, but actually also tested out once by me on one unfortunate gentleman. That was one embarrassed young man. LOL.

SamFisher

03-17-2008, 12:11 PM

BTW, how do you know I have never been in Tibet? Isn't it just typical of you to make such assumptions with no basis?

because none of you guys ever have.

yeo

03-17-2008, 12:16 PM

because none of you guys ever have.

LOL, you are doing nothing but embarrassing yourself, Sam. Go and sulk.

yeo

03-17-2008, 12:22 PM

Well, wouldn't you say it has also shattered the Dalai Lama's official myth that the Tibetans are noble non-violent pacifists?

BTW, don't put words in my mouth, I have never claimed all Tibetans are happy with Chinese rule. I am a realist. I expect some Tibetans to be very unhappy. Especially the lamas, who have had their privileged positions taken away from them. And if I were you, I wouldn't be too happy with the events of the past week yet. It's not a Tibetan vs. Chinese situation. The Tibetans themselves are split. Like I said there is a growing secular Tibetan middle class who has a stake in the staus quo and no interest in the Dalai Lama and his empty promises of the next life. Perhaps that's the "cultural genocide" Dalai was talking about. That there is a growing number of his people who no longer believe in him.

Here is a couple of examples, the lovely Alan Dawa Dolma and the great singer Han Hong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwst9gQ9Xgw)

Here are some other examples, an elite PLA company made up mostly of Tibetans. I wonder whether they are in Lhasa now doing some butt-kicking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzR0PP6TB2w

langal

03-17-2008, 12:39 PM

That is pretty amusing. You play the 'stupid westerners never been to Tibet' card, and when Sam calls you and raises, you suddently manufacture this sudden and intense moral outrage at people who make assumptions.

LOL.

Hey to be fair,

The "stupid westerners" also claim that we're all "pro-genocide". The self-righteous moral outrage has gone both ways here.

Ottomaton

03-17-2008, 12:58 PM

Hey to be fair,

The "stupid westerners" also claim that we're all "pro-genocide". The self-righteous moral outrage has gone both ways here.

Fair enough.

The problem I had wasn't so much the moral outrage. It is that he was outraged at Sam for doing exactly what he himself had just done one post earlier (making assumptions about whether someone had been to Tibet and trying to paint the other party as unfamiliar with Tibet). I see his post where he tries to wiggle out of having done what he did, but think it should be self-evident that his post was a reply to and directed at Sam.

His self-pwnage is an issue that transcends viewpoints or sides in this discussion. It exists independently of who is right or wrong on the issue of Tibet. It is more a fatal procedural error - something like a logical mobius strip, as opposed to a problem with an actual substantive discussion point or attitude.

longhornchampno

03-17-2008, 01:05 PM

Look up my old posts on this subject.

I love all of our brilliant chinese authorities on the subject - which are people like you who have never been to Tibet or spoken to a single Tibetan. Of course, I have, and you haven't, so I guess I'm one up on you there as well.

Anwyay, I know how this boring argument turns out. You claim to have "facts" at your disposal, consisting of nothing more than the party line, then a few posts later, you say "WELL AMERICANS INVADED THE INDIANS AND STOLE THEIR LAND!!!!"

This week has been very illustrative - it's basically shattered the CCP official party myth (repeated by many of the very pro-China nationalists posting in this thread) that Tibetans lived in happy, gratefuul subjugation to their helpful "older brother" chinese overlords. Guess that wasn't so true after all.

There are a few fools in this thread who try to defend every move of the CCP.

There are also a few other fools in this thread who assume that everyone who does not speak on your side is pro-CCP, pro-China nationalist or even pro-genocide (seriously can people get even more moronic than making an assumption like that?). Also, according to you, that group even includes people who just think that the media is lame to have doctored the picture.

You guys are all nuts.

yeo

03-17-2008, 01:11 PM

Fair enough.

The problem I had wasn't so much the moral outrage. It is that he just was outraged at Sam for doing exactly what he himself had just done one post earlier (making assumptions about whether someone had been to Tibet). I see his post where he tries to wiggle out of having done what he did, but think it should be self-evident that his post was a reply to and directed at Sam.

His self-pwnage is an issue that transcends viewpoints or sides in this discussion. It exists independently of who is right or wrong on the issue of Tibet. It is more a fatal procedural error, than a problem with an actual substantive discussion point.

LOL, whatever. "Pwnage"? You think this is a video game?

Anyway, to continue with my previous rant. The governer of Tibet is Tibetan, the mayor of Lhasa is Tibetan, the former Chinese minister of interior was Tibetan... I know, I know, they are all running dogs of the stinking Chinese. But the thing is, there seems to be an aweful lot of these "running dogs" around, like the Lhasa civilians lining up to receive riot equipment in the photo I postd on a previous page. Perhaps they are simply people who wants a stable and prosperous life? Perhaps they simply see no need to shed their own blood or anyone else's for an independent Tibet which hasn't existed for 350 years? Perhaps they just don't want to prostrate themselves in front of an old man who was selected through a ridiculous medieval process and who has not done anything for them?

There, there is some more Chinese propaganda for you. Food for thought for anyone willing to think.

Ottomaton

03-17-2008, 01:15 PM

LOL, whatever. "Pwnage"? You think this is a video game?

If 'idiocy', 'stupidity', or 'logically contradictory babble' sound more grown up to you, that's fine. I would be glad to substitute any one it makes you happy. I avoided those and similar words because I thought they were too aggressive and confrontational. But to each his own.

yeo

03-17-2008, 01:22 PM

If 'idiocy', 'stupidity', or 'logically contradictory babble' sound more grown up to you, that's fine. I would be glad to substitute any one it makes you happy. I avoided those and similar words because I thought they were too aggressive and confrontational. But to each his own.

Well, at least my 'idiocy', 'stupidity', or 'logically contradictory babble' contain more truth than your previous claim that Nepal is more prosperous than Tibet. Another person might have been taken by your play with the numbers. But you see, I have actually travelled to Nepal as well, and what I saw there told me what you claim is impossible. I do some more digging and voila, I catch you red-handed. Anyway, to each his own, like you said. In the end, our debate here doesn't matter a bit in the real world. I am just having a little fun laughing at some fools, that's all.

Deckard

03-17-2008, 02:27 PM

Here are some other examples, an elite PLA company made up mostly of Tibetans. I wonder whether they are in Lhasa now doing some butt-kicking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzR0PP6TB2w
Is this a video game? The Nazis had quislings from every subjugated country. There are always those willing to sell out their country for a bigger rice bowl.

"Quisling, after Norwegian politician Vidkun Quisling, who assisted Nazi Germany to conquer his own country, is a term used to describe traitors and collaborationists. It was most commonly used for fascist political parties and military and paramilitary forces in occupied Allied countries which collaborated with Axis occupiers in World War II, as well as for their members and other collaborators.

That Quisling's name should be applied to denote the whole phenomenon of collaborationism is probably due to the place of Norway on the list of countries occupied by the Third Reich. The Nazis were not interested in Polish collaborationism, because they planned to extirpate the Polish nation completely and resettle Poland with Germans, and Denmark fell within a few hours. Thus, Norway was the first country where local, non-German, fascist parties took part in the conquest of their own country after the start of the War."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quisling

Impeach Bush.

yeo

03-17-2008, 02:53 PM

Is this a video game? The Nazis had quislings from every subjugated country. There are always those willing to sell out their country for a bigger rice bowl.

Right, about the kind of response I expected. ***** them running dogs! And ***** this little boy too! Who told him to get in the way of "peaceful demonstrators"?

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/tibetan-rioters-after-innocent-kids.jpg

We live in a wonderful world. Peace out!

wnes

03-17-2008, 02:57 PM

Is this a video game? The Nazis had quislings from every subjugated country. There are always those willing to sell out their country for a bigger rice bowl.

Country, what country?

Republic of Texas?

rocketsjudoka

03-17-2008, 03:24 PM

If PRC allows that for Tibet, other ethnicities in China will want the same, most notably Xinjiang. So PRC does need to give up more than you think.

I've heard this argument before and I would also say that more autonomy to some of the PRC's other regions wouldn't be a bad thing either. Both from that it will help pacify those regions but the PRC as a single monolithic entity is inefficient and too difficult to govern. The PRC is already running into problems with inequities of wealth and problems with governance between several provinces already and switching to a more federal system might be better than a centralized government. That is for a different discussion though.

Even without granting Xinjiang more autonomy right away the PRC could use agreeing with the Dalai Lama to their advantage in dealing with Xinjiang. Consider that there is no equivalent among the Tibetans of the ETIM and while there have been sporadic violence there has never been an organized violent movement in Tibet or among Tibetan exiles against the PRC. Rather than follow the route of the ETIM, PLO, IRA or ETA the Tibetans on the whole have never seen terrorism as a political tool. The PRC could come to an agreement with the Dalai Lama that in return for continuing to preach peace and negotiation the PRC are granting concessions of their own. This would be a powerful statement to Uighars who have chosen to use terrorism to make their point.

The problem though with the PRC history with the Tibet and why it has such a large following throughout the world is that in a time where the British have negotiated with the IRA and even the Israelis with the PLO the PRC seems stubborn and intractable when it refuses to negotiate with a group that hasn't advocated war against the PRC.

But PRC is smart, they know they can wait till Dalai dies and it will be another twenty or thirty years before another Dalai comes to spot light.

I've heard this argument but its a tactic that could backfire. Once the current Dalai Lama dies, and presumably the PRC manipulates the choice of the next one, the Tibetans could lose all faith in the Lama leadership and younger more extreme Tibetans could decide that since the old Dalai Lama's negotiations accomplished nothing taking up violence might be a better solution. I posted an article earlier in the thread on this subject.

rocketsjudoka

03-17-2008, 03:27 PM

Whoops double post.

rocketsjudoka

03-17-2008, 03:30 PM

Well, wouldn't you say it has also shattered the Dalai Lama's official myth that the Tibetans are noble non-violent pacifists?

I'm listening to NPR right now and Dalai Lama has come out and said he doesn't agree or support the violence being caused by Tibetans and has reiterated his call for negotiation. NPR has also broadcast a statement by a PRC spokesman who said he has evidence that the Dalai Lama is behind this but has refused to make it public for now.

BTW, don't put words in my mouth, I have never claimed all Tibetans are happy with Chinese rule. I am a realist. I expect some Tibetans to be very unhappy. Especially the lamas, who have had their privileged positions taken away from them. And if I were you, I wouldn't be too happy with the events of the past week yet. It's not a Tibetan vs. Chinese situation. The Tibetans themselves are split. Like I said there is a growing secular Tibetan middle class who has a stake in the staus quo and no interest in the Dalai Lama and his empty promises of the next life. Perhaps that's the "cultural genocide" Dalai was talking about. That there is a growing number of his people who no longer believe in him.

While I agree that more people should learn more about Tibet, including that there are probably many Tibetans who like PRC rule and the PRC position, but at the same time I would suggest you learn more about the Dalai Lama. He has long repudiated Tibet's backward past and has said that he doesn't want a theocracy back in Tibet.

ymc

03-17-2008, 03:30 PM

I've heard this argument but its a tactic that could backfire. Once the current Dalai Lama dies, and presumably the PRC manipulates the choice of the next one, the Tibetans could lose all faith in the Lama leadership and younger more extreme Tibetans could decide that since the old Dalai Lama's negotiations accomplished nothing taking up violence might be a better solution. .

How can they beat a nuclear power who has one billion Han Chinese who are firmly behind the Communist Party's Tibet policy?

I don't think PRC cares if the Tibetans burn their own homeland to the ground.

yeo

03-17-2008, 03:43 PM

Apparently overseas Tibetan terrorists have infiltrated the city of ChengDu with large amount of explosives. City blocks have been closed off and a massive manhunt is on, according to Chinese bloggers.

http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/03/14/china-fire-on-the-streets-of-lhasa/

"I was just in the crowd and got the latest info! Chengdu's military district has already gone on highest alert, and troops have now been dispatched toward Tibet. Wuhouci Rd. going both north and south have been completely sealed off, cars aren't allowed in. Ximianqiao St. going both east and west has been completely sealed off, cars aren't being allowed in. Shuhan Rd. and another side street are completely filled with police cars which have stopped all traffic. A rough estimate, there's over 200 police, and over 100 police cars of every kind. There's also around 50 police motorbikes, patrolling the streets non-stop in formations of groups of three. Where Wuhouci Rd. E meets Wuhouci Rd. W, there are also fire trucks. Both Wuhouci and Ximianqiao streets have completely become pedestrian streets, not a single car on either. Walking down the streets all you see are flashing police lights. Right now, you do not want to go into crowded areas and start pushing around. The tons of explosives they shipped here to Chengdu from Tibet aren't to be seen now, they've disappeared. Police sent out an internal notice warning a few days ago, that [bleep]ists had entered Chengdu in an attempt to carry out terrorist strikes. These people have spent years overseas studying demolitions and are highly skilled at it, with cruel methods. Experienced police from all over Chengdu have been transferred here."

The slide of "Free-Tibet"ers down the long slippery slope of terrorism has begun.

MFW

03-17-2008, 04:38 PM

bwahahaha, poor ethnic hans can't catch a break in china - with the exception of all the tax breaks, etc the government gives them to resettle in tibet, which is why they own the place now.

LIke I said before - just get it over with and slaughter or deport all the Tibetans - it's inevitable, so just nut up and do it.

Look who just scuttled out from under the woodworks. Sammy! In to take another potshot before running.

Look at all the humongous influx of ethnic Hans to Tibet. Man, Tibetans only account for 90%+ of the population there. Yup, the CCP is doing a great job carting some 60,000 ethnic Hans to Tibet over the last 49 years.

And you followed that up with another little gem.

Look up my old posts on this subject.

I love all of our brilliant chinese authorities on the subject - which are people like you who have never been to Tibet or spoken to a single Tibetan. Of course, I have, and you haven't, so I guess I'm one up on you there as well.

I've actually been there myself. Did the tourist thing. Visited temples, talked to Lamas, locals. But I not pretend to have any deeper and/or beyond understanding of the place. However, Ido love how you are the self proclaimed authority.

Anwyay, I know how this boring argument turns out. You claim to have "facts" at your disposal, consisting of nothing more than the party line, then a few posts later, you say "WELL AMERICANS INVADED THE INDIANS AND STOLE THEIR LAND!!!!"

Not that I necessarily agree with yeo (or anybody else's) version, but you had multiple changes to enlighten us with your "facts." I've seen you make no such attempt. Seriously, what a shock huh.

And the Americans did invade the Indians and steal their land. I didn't know that was up for debate. What is good for the goose is good for the gander I think.

This week has been very illustrative - it's basically shattered the CCP official party myth (repeated by many of the very pro-China nationalists posting in this thread) that Tibetans lived in happy, gratefuul subjugation to their helpful "older brother" chinese overlords. Guess that wasn't so true after all.

Boy, aren't we in the mood for generalizing.

Like I said before - I'm tired of this whole subject. I'm tired of bogus historical explanations and mainlanders who have never set foot in Tibet making bogus explanations about te historical sovreignty of things that happened 500 years ago. None of it afects the present, which is the succesful PRC invasion and occupation of Tibet. That's just reality.

Their opinion is no more bogus than your moronic claim. At least they backed up their opinions with facts. You just ran.

Just get it over with and kill them all. You can't have manifest destiny without breaking a few eggs.

They had their chance for 50+ years. Maybe it wasn't their intentions to actually kill them all. I know, crazy, but just an alternate hypothesis, you know.

Invisible Fan

03-17-2008, 05:11 PM

How can they beat a nuclear power who has one billion Han Chinese who are firmly behind the Communist Party's Tibet policy?

I don't think PRC cares if the Tibetans burn their own homeland to the ground.

You think the rest of Asia won't be freaked out by that?

michecon

03-17-2008, 05:12 PM

You guys still arguing over this? With the usual characters and usual stances.

I suggest let's declare the third world war and move on.

yeo

03-17-2008, 05:12 PM

Time for some more reading lessons. Written by a western scholar. This is Chinese government propaganda too?

Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth, by Michael Parenti (http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html)

Some excerpts for those who cann't be bothered to read the whole thing.

"Religions have had a close relationship not only with violence but with economic exploitation. Indeed, it is often the economic exploitation that necessitates the violence. Such was the case with the Tibetan theocracy. Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into manorial estates worked by serfs. These estates were owned by two social groups: the rich secular landlords and the rich theocratic lamas. Even a writer sympathetic to the old order allows that “a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches.” Much of the wealth was accumulated “through active participation in trade, commerce, and money lending.” "

"Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated rape, beginning at age nine. 14 The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers."

"The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care, They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord's land--or the monastery’s land--without pay, to repair the lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand.16 Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. "

"One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.”18 Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed."

Now do people understand why the Chinese say they "liberated" Tibet? And why the lamas are so mad?

ymc

03-17-2008, 05:18 PM

You think the rest of Asia won't be freaked out by that?

The Arabic countries were all freaked out by Iraq invasion. But so what?

Invisible Fan

03-17-2008, 05:25 PM

The Arabic countries were all freaked out by Iraq invasion. But so what?

Well I'm glad the PRC is more pragmatic in the diplomacy....

But sure, do it.

The US would be happy to have another superpower get all the negative attention.

yeo

03-17-2008, 05:39 PM

Police brutality against Tibetans caught on tape (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0rprGKO9-8)

langal

03-17-2008, 07:29 PM

Police brutality against Tibetans caught on tape (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0rprGKO9-8)

lol. those protestors didn't even get to torch any shops, let alone beat up anyone.

wnes

03-17-2008, 08:10 PM

LOL ... which one are we witnessing: 1) Commies have taken over NYPD, as the moron cameraman claims, or 2) thugs are being dealt with justly according to law and order common to every country, as the moron's video camera is showing?

YouTube Video of the Year!

foofy

03-17-2008, 08:58 PM

Ottomaton

03-17-2008, 09:29 PM

Free Kurdis!

I don't mean to be rude, but your comments read like a bit of a non-sequitur. I don't understand what you are trying to say. Kurdis? I don't know what that is. I even Googled it thinking I must be missing something obvious, but no luck. Do you mean Kurdish? or Kurtis?

If you are advocating for the liberation and unification of Kurdish people, I'm sure they appreciate your support of Kurdistan, and I too wish them all the luck in the world. But it still seems like a non-sequitur in the context of my post. If you meant something else, could you please explain?

anyway... found the following from the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/asia/la-fg-chispin17mar17,1,7419697.story) which I'm sure will elicit annoyed responses from some:

China plays victim for its audience

Government media images of Tibetans as the aggressors stoke support at home.

LANZHOU, CHINA -- Even as China faces global criticism for its crackdown on Tibetan Buddhists, it's winning the battle that it most cares about: support for its policies among Chinese back home.

One key factor is a media strategy that, while still blunt and heavily reliant on censorship and propaganda, shows more nuance than usual for the lumbering Communist Party.

This last week the government has used something it traditionally viewed as a big negative, any suggestion that it's not in total control, to its advantage by going large with print, still and video coverage of Tibetans attacking Han Chinese in the Tibetan capital, Lhasa, and destroying their property.

Not only does this rather ironically paint the Chinese state and its massive police force as something of a victim, analysts said, but it also stirs up feelings of fear and anger among many Han, the nation's majority population, that add a personal dimension to the riots.

At a political level, the coverage has also bolstered the government's assertion that its archenemy, the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, is masterminding the protests from abroad and the atheist government's long-standing contention that Tibetan monks are anything but neutral, nonpolitical and peace-loving.

Many of the videos of the riots on the state-run CCTV website have been shot and edited to point up crimson-robed monks bashing and burning with the best of the mob. And to the extent the Dalai Lama has stopped short of outright condemning the monks and the protest, China gains points.

"In this crisis, their strategy has been pretty effective," said Xiao Qiang, director of the China Internet Project at UC Berkeley. "They've been able to portray it as 'we Chinese' versus 'they Tibetans' and seen public opinion go their way."

This policy is a case of making a virtue of necessity given that absolute control of information has become increasingly difficult.

The state's information guardians have also picked up a few other tricks. They're using more individual stories of Han families who were victimized in Tibet, aware that a personal narrative is far more powerful than vague propaganda language. And they've sprinkled their official dispatches with such terminology as "bloggers," "netizens" and "blogosphere" to look more current and inclusive.

At the same time, the approach is more of a paint job than a renovation as China's propaganda ministry continues to use many traditional tactics honed in dusty Soviet offices decades ago.

Unrest is blamed on "outside" elements, Tibetans are urged to report on other "troublemakers" and there are hints, although no guarantees, of leniency for those who turn themselves in.

On other fronts, the "Great Firewall," China's Internet filtering and monitoring system, has been in overdrive during the last week, deleting comments furiously and blocking Internet searches of such terms as "Tibet," "Lhasa," "demonstration" and "March 14" -- the day of protests in which at least 10 people were killed.

Some pro-government comments have found their way onto the Internet, though many are anonymous and there is no fast way to determine their origin.

"I strongly condemn the Dalai clique trying to undermine China's prosperity," said an anonymous posting from the southern city of Guangzhou on the popular Sohu portal.

Independent views opposing the government are strongly discouraged. The government has banned travel by foreigners to Tibet.

"The control strategy comes from the very top and it's well orchestrated," Xiao said. "It's more intense than I've ever seen."

Although international opinion is important, particularly as Beijing prepares to hold the Olympics in August, all politics are local, even in China. And for the party, maintaining its monopoly political grip on its far-flung empire is central to its strategy and continued existence, underscoring its vow that Tibet will never be allowed independence.

The strategy has been well received among members of the country's often strongly nationalist Chinese-language community. The government "should send more auxiliary police and arm each one with a rubber stick" against protesters, said a post on the Internet bulletin board Douban.

The themes of national unity and respect for the integrity of the motherland have also struck a chord with many in the more sophisticated overseas Chinese Internet community.

"The government has done well," said Robert Liu, a blogger who has been studying economics in the U.S. for the last six months. "They're doing better and have a more mature approach, although they still have a long way to go."

Growing domestic support of its policies gives the Chinese government political cover to restore order to the restive ethnically Tibetan areas of the Tibet Autonomous Region and Qinghai and Gansu provinces as it sees fit, knowing that accounts of heavy-handed tactics will inevitably surface in an increasingly porous society.

This is a different dynamic than in 1989 when many Chinese identified with the students rather than the government in Tiananmen Square.

Images of Tibetan rioting are also being employed to bolster the government's core message that foreign human rights groups and activists such as the Dalai Lama are bent on ruining the Olympics to keep China down. The Dalai Lama said Sunday that China deserves to host the Olympics and that the Games should not be boycotted.

Although China lacks the democratic institutions, vocal critics or opinion polls that would gauge the effectiveness of its strategy and public perception of its Tibet policies, one indicator may be its censorship of coverage by television networks BBC and CNN inside the country.

Instead of blacking out all such Tibet reports, leading to long and annoying instances of blank screens early in the week, the government allowed more of them to air as the week wore on. A BBC report that aired Sunday in Beijing ran 20 minutes, including a five-minute excerpt with the Dalai Lama.

"The government is showing more confidence and learning more about spin," said Michael Anti, a well-known Chinese blogger on a Nieman fellowship this year at Harvard. "They've learned more PR tactics from Western people. They see the way the White House and the Pentagon do it."