2 Dead as Protests Break out in Tibet

[Apollo Creed]

This Chinese gentleman in London is my hero for the day. Too bad I cann't be in SF on wendesday. I would have loved to bag me a couple of Free-Tibeters. :D

Chinese supporter beating up Free-Tibeter in London's Trafalgar Square. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af1rq4aiIfY&eurl=http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/SanFrancisco/31291412.html)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I really hate using the rollseyes but have no written response which could be more fitting.

[yeo]

can't watch that at work. will check it out when i get home. are there any events around chicago area? i may show up for that. just a day off work. my parents will go with me if there is an event.

Don't know about Chicago, check your local Chinese newspapers or maybe contact the Chinese student association at University of Chicago. There have been big rallies all around the world. You are never gonna see it in the media though.

[rfila]

Oh no! They tried pouring water on a torch! CARRIED BY SOMEONE IN A WHEELCHAIR! OMGZZZZ!!!!

This is the worst atrocity since 9/11! No, wait, thousands of people dying can't compare to French protestors!!!

I was talking the way those extremists do things.

Certainly, innocent Chinese civilian dying in Tibet is no comparable of 9/11 victims.

[yeo]

I was talking the way those extremists do things.

Certainly, innocent Chinese civilian dying in Tibet is no comparable of 9/11 victims.

If you kill an American or a British, you are a terrorist. if you kill a Chinese or a Russian, you are a freedom-fighter. Don't you know that already?

[michecon]

I would personally like to thank KingCheetah for the good giggles I get. No reply is necessary though. This post is just an expression of my un-containable, heart-felt appreciation.


PS, How many of you would throw yourself at the police when the torch arrives at the U.S.? I'd like to go watch.

[Ottomaton]

When the USA annexes the Middle East, forces people Muslims to denounce Allah, and sends all the children to American schools and forces them to learn English and pledge allegiance to the USA, and then paves right through the center of the Mosque in Mecca with a brand new street called "Washington DC Ave" then you might have a point comparing Osama bin Laden and Tibet

And I think most of us called the Beslan school terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis) exactly what they were - terrorists. Thus fundamentally your point of bias specifically against non-Anglos is proven false. Could it be that we treat Tibet different from Osama bin Laden because we believe that the Tibetans have a legitimate claim? Possibly? Perhaps the situations are treated differently because they are different? Novel concept?

[thadeus]

Regular Americans and regular Chinese debating about which government is more evil - the truth is that we have far more in common with one another than any of us has in common with our "leaders" - elected or otherwise.

Nationalism is idiocy.

[rhadamanthus]

Regular Americans and regular Chinese debating about which government is more evil - the truth is that we have far more in common with one another than any of us has in common with our "leaders" - elected or otherwise.

Nationalism is idiocy.

As president of the "Thadeus fan club" I'd like to quote this post for truth.


Thadeus for president, bitches.

[yuantian]

Regular Americans and regular Chinese debating about which government is more evil - the truth is that we have far more in common with one another than any of us has in common with our "leaders" - elected or otherwise.

Nationalism is idiocy.

ya, nationalism is bad. it makes people irrational. but i think a large part of what's driving modern chinese nationalism is constant scrutiny from the outside. even in the 1800s, there wasn't much of a chinese nationalism. but today, i think the government is struggling to contain nationalism, which is unfortunate.

[wnes]

When the USA annexes the Middle East, forces people Muslims to denounce Allah, and sends all the children to American schools and forces them to learn English and pledge allegiance to the USA, and then paves right through the center of the Mosque in Mecca with a brand new street called "Washington DC Ave" then you might have a point comparing Osama bin Laden and Tibet

And I think most of us called the Beslan school terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis) exactly what they were - terrorists. Thus fundamentally your point of bias specifically against non-Anglos is proven false. Could it be that we treat Tibet different from Osama bin Laden because we believe that the Tibetans have a legitimate claim? Possibly? Perhaps the situations are treated differently because they are different? Novel concept?

Perhaps if you can show us since when Middle East has been part of U.S., uber dork.

[SamFisher]

Perhaps if you can show us since when Middle East has been part of U.S., uber dork.


^ oh here we go again. American Indian/Manifest Destiny reference forthcoming in teh next page........

[wnes]

LOL, the concept of Nation only applies whenever you see fit.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Protesters Scale Golden Gate Bridge

53 minutes ago

http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/ggbridgetibet.jpg

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Three protesters are climbing up the suspension cables of the Golden Gate Bridge as part of a protest to the coming Olympic torch relay.

The protesters are wearing helmets and one of them is carrying a suitcase with him. All three of the protesters are tethered together.

One of them has pulled out a Tibetan flag.

The torch is due to arrive Wednesday in San Francisco, its only North American stop.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5inYHymKBdq64xWUQdEqPTzV-QuRQD8VT5TB81

[rfila]

When the USA annexes the Middle East, forces people Muslims to denounce Allah, and sends all the children to American schools and forces them to learn English and pledge allegiance to the USA, and then paves right through the center of the Mosque in Mecca with a brand new street called "Washington DC Ave" then you might have a point comparing Osama bin Laden and Tibet

And I think most of us called the Beslan school terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis) exactly what they were - terrorists. Thus fundamentally your point of bias specifically against non-Anglos is proven false. Could it be that we treat Tibet different from Osama bin Laden because we believe that the Tibetans have a legitimate claim? Possibly? Perhaps the situations are treated differently because they are different? Novel concept?

So it is understandable to kill innocent Chinese in Tibet because you believe the situations are different? I got you.

I am not going to refute your points. I do not think anything I write will change your mind/brain. I am not good at English like MFW/yuantian/yeo/wnes etc. do, but I outsmart them on this one. Hey, I feel good!

[Ottomaton]

So it is understandable to kill innocent Chinese in Tibet because you believe the situations are different? I got you.


I would put the Chinese in Tibet in the same category as the British who moved to Northern Ireland in order to get an advantage over other British when the Provos were bombing the crap out of Northern Ireland.

If you climb into the jaws of the tiger, don't be surprised if you get bit. That doesn't mean the tiger has a moral right to eat you. It doesn’t mean that the tiger should be able to eat you without repercussions. It just means tigers get hungry ultimately will act like tigers. It is simply the nature of things.

[rfila]

I would put the Chinese in Tibet in the same category as the British who moved to Northern Ireland in order to get an advantage over other British when the Provos were bombing the crap out of Northern Ireland.

If you climb into the jaws of the tiger, don't be surprised if you get bit. That doesn't mean the tiger has a moral right to eat you. It doesn’t mean that the tiger should be able to eat you without repercussions. It just means tigers get hungry ultimately will act like tigers. It is simply the nature of things.

My bad, I probably did not get you. Sounds like Native Amercan have a case here. Good thing vast number of Indians were killed long time ago, or we would have had more troubles in this land because the Indians would have legitimate reason to kill people around.

[SamFisher]

My bad, I probably did not get you. Sounds like Native Amercan have a case here. Good thing vast number of Indians were killed long time ago, or we would have had more troubles in this land because the Indians would have legitimate reason to kill people around.

And....here it is. This thread is like an ancient indian burial ground, their angry ghosts are constantly being awakened.

[Ottomaton]

My bad, I probably did not get you. Sounds like Native Amercan have a case here. Good thing vast number of Indians were killed long time ago, or we would have had more troubles in this land because the Indians would have legitimate reason to kill people around.

I think traders who decided to move out west in the 1800's and seek their fortunes when they knew that there were vast tribes of hostile Indians absolutely took their chances. I blame no Native American for scalping and murdering invading white men, even if those white men weren't overtly hostile.

But like Sam says, go back about 15 pages and you can read the whole conversation and you can avoid dredging it back up again. Everything you are going to say is already here.

[rfila]

And....here it is. This thread is like an ancient indian burial ground, their angry ghosts are constantly being awakened.

Don't worry about that. If you can kill the live ones, there is no reason to be afraid of the dead ones.

Maybe there are indeed two worlds involved in this thread. One is the real world when we talk about the US history and reality. The other is a hypercritical world when we come to the Chinese history and reality.

Two worlds or two words? Double standard?

[real_egal]

But like Sam says, go back about 15 pages and you can read the whole conversation and you can avoid dredging it back up again. Everything you are going to say is already here.

Have Hauptmann Herr Fischer and Oberleutnant Herr Otto had anything new to say, since last 30 similar threads?

[pirc1]

Why bother defending China. I said this before, there are a vast majority of people on this bbs who are against China for any of countless reasons, but they all unite against China and enjoy anything that puts China in a bad light.

No one here cares that if the current Chinese government collapse and China fall into chaos, the problem it would cause the rest of the world, or what happens if more extremist take control of China like in Iran for example.

None of these posters cares about the lives of every day Chinese people, whose living standards have gone up more than 600% in the last thirty years. There is a reason why there is so much support behind the current government for the most part by most Chinese. Sure US and other wealthy nations will show some token help for poor nations, but don't count on them to do anything if it will harm any interest in their own countries.

Democracy is not the quick fix that many think it is. Slow are sure progress surely beats extreme changes, no one can deny the Chinese today enjoy much more human rights freedom than thirty years ago. Change for the sake of changing is just childish.

[rfila]

I think traders who decided to move out west in the 1800's and seek their fortunes when they knew that there were vast tribes of hostile Indians absolutely took their chances. I blame no Native American for scalping and murdering invading white men, even if those white men weren't overtly hostile.

But like Sam says, go back about 15 pages and you can read the whole conversation and you can avoid dredging it back up again. Everything you are going to say is already here.

I was just trying hard to understand your logic, and I have to admit I failed on that one. As I said early, I won't refute anything you say.

Unfortunately, I am having more and more problems trying to understand you. Take this latest one, "I blame no Native American for scalping and murdering invading white men, even if those white men weren't overtly hostile." May I know if you would blame Native American if they kill white men TODAY? if the answer is no, how come you do not blame Tibetian for killing Chinese last month?

I just don't get it. Enlight me please.

[namo]

...I just don't get it. Enlight me please.

What's so hard to understand? Who cares about the dignity and well-being of the Chinese.
http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/shang_dan/yao_ming071907.jpg

[Ottomaton]

I was just trying hard to understand your logic, and I have to admit I failed on that one. As I said early, I won't refute anything you say.

Unfortunately, I am having more and more problems trying to understand you. Take this latest one, "I blame no Native American for scalping and murdering invading white men, even if those white men weren't overtly hostile." May I know if you would blame Native American if they kill white men TODAY

Since there aren't any Native American tribes roming the plains of Kansas City these days, I would place that question in the category of, "Would I blame Manchu for defending Changchun against Han": the question nonsensical because there are no maurauding armies of Manchu bannermen anymore. They are gone from Manchuria. They are not there as a seperate identity to defend from the Han.

I guess if Americans tried to move in and take over Native Reservations, then by all means, go for it, Mr. Sioux Warrior. Scalp the white man.

In the same way, I'm much more concerned about the Bengal Tiger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_Tiger) than about conservation of the Thylacine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thylacine) or the Passenger Pidgeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Pigeon). The Bengal Tiger isn't more important than the others, it is just the one for whom action and attitude can still make a difference.

[langal]

Perhaps if you can show us since when Middle East has been part of U.S., uber dork.

To be fair, I think that most of the "free tibet" crowd is probably against US involvement in the Middle East.

I think they are wrong and biased in some cases, but they are at least consistent when it comes to Iraq, etc.

Now if you are pro-Irag war and free-tibet, then there are some problems. I think any pro-war politician would get called out on that.

[rfila]

Since there aren't any Native American tribes roming the plains of Kansas City these days, I would place that question in the category of, "Would I blame Manchu for defending Changchun against Han": the question nonsensical because there are no maurauding armies of Manchu bannermen anymore. They are gone from Manchuria. They are not there as a seperate identity to defend from the Han.

I guess if Americans tried to move in and take over Native Reservations, then by all means, go for it, Mr. Sioux Warrior. Scalp the white man.

In the same way, I'm much more concerned about the Bengal Tiger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_Tiger) than about conservation of the Thylacine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thylacine) or the Passenger Pidgeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Pigeon). The Bengal Tiger isn't more important than the others, it is just the one for whom action and attitude can still make a difference.

I think I got it this time!

You will blame the Indians if they kill white men today becaue "there aren't any Native American tribes roming the plains of Kansas City these days". Wow, Chinese are stupid. They could have just wiped out all Tibetan "tribes" and got Ottomaton sympathy for getting killed by a Tibetan with "no seperate identity"!

American always does a better job than Chinese, here is the prove!

"I guess if Americans tried to move in and take over Native Reservations, then by all means, go for it, Mr. Sioux Warrior. Scalp the white man." God forbidden, should that ever happened, I can vision that the tribes will be gone in no time before Ottomation finish his slogan "Scalp the white man!"

[longhornchampno]

Why bother defending China. I said this before, there are a vast majority of people on this bbs who are against China for any of countless reasons, but they all unite against China and enjoy anything that puts China in a bad light.

No one here cares that if the current Chinese government collapse and China fall into chaos, the problem it would cause the rest of the world, or what happens if more extremist take control of China like in Iran for example.

None of these posters cares about the lives of every day Chinese people, whose living standards have gone up more than 600% in the last thirty years. There is a reason why there is so much support behind the current government for the most part by most Chinese. Sure US and other wealthy nations will show some token help for poor nations, but don't count on them to do anything if it will harm any interest in their own countries.

Democracy is not the quick fix that many think it is. Slow are sure progress surely beats extreme changes, no one can deny the Chinese today enjoy much more human rights freedom than thirty years ago. Change for the sake of changing is just childish.

You are delusioned if you think the likes of SamFisher really cares about the well-being of Chinese people or the progress of democracy in China. This hypocrite doesn't give a flying ass to whether China falls into chao or whatever disastrous situation that may happen there. No one denies the human right problem in China (and the human right problem in every other part of the world too). The likes of SamFisher just take advantage of the issue and hide behind the human right banner to run his mouth on anything about China. Like I have said before, I can practically predict what he would say and which side he would take whenever I see a thread about China. Just go ahead to be as hypocritical as you want to be, But please don't pretend that you are being righteous and and please don't pretend that you care about the right of the people in China, cause you are not. You are just taking advantage of the situation there to tarnish the image of China for your own propaganda in an internet forum. Your hypocrisy makes me want to puke.

[SamFisher]

Nonsense Shampoo - a chaotic Chinese economy would be bad for my investment portfolio.

Anyway, I love all my chinese brothers and sisters, especially the sisters. I want them to be democratized and free like the worthy people of Taiwan - one of my favorite countries on earth.

[real_egal]

Anyway, I love all my chinese brothers and sisters, especially the sisters. I want them to be democratized and free like the worthy people of Taiwan - one of my favorite countries on earth.

Getting high in your delusional shallow mind again? LOL. "Being unworthy" in the eyes of a Nazi loving racist like you, is quite some pleasure, even on an Internet forum.

[rfila]

Getting high in your delusional shallow mind again? LOL. "Being unworthy" in the eyes of a Nazi loving racist like you, is quite some pleasure, even on an Internet forum.
Not for me. Whatever that Samfisher says doesn't mean a **** to me. I used to think he is just stupid. And I have found he is worse than that. Ignoring him may be the best way dealing with such a low life in a forum.

[MFW]

All you can do is sling insults with zero response to the facts I presented -- very familiar tactic MFW - however your hitless string continues unabated.


Which facts would that be? The fact that you bent over backwards proverbially after having to change your story from "PLA dressed up as monks to incite riot" to "PAP have monk cloths?"

Your stupidity is on display for all to see. I hardly have to sling insults. You're a walking embarrassment that I hardly have to do anything else.

...

Efficiency Sammy, let's strive to efficiency here. I've summarized your post into the following: "blah blah."

See, isn't that better?

[SamFisher]

Oh listen my lovely eastern friends, you will never catch me.

I am fleet of foot and fleeter of mind. I've got a mind as sharp as a tack and a tongue that's even sharper.

I duck and slide....like a GOD, and am capable of landing some very vicious counter-parries.

I flurry like the snow, and then I heat it up and make it rain down upon you.

Quarter will be neither asked nor given my friends.

Welcome to a house of pain!

[pgabriel]

sam is also a poet

[MR. MEOWGI]

Tibet: China’s make-believe world
Sushil Seth

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2008/04/08/2003408697

Tuesday, Apr 08, 2008, Page 8

The amazing thing about the developments in Tibet is that Beijing feels wronged. It feels that the world is ignoring its side of the story.

Beijing claims that the uprising in Tibet is the work of a Dalai Lama “clique” through some kind of “remote control” process.

Indeed, China senses a conspiracy of sorts to derail the Beijing Olympics.

Beijing’s make-believe world is made up of multiple contradictions. They can be simultaneously arrogant, suffer from victimization and have a highly charged sense of moral outrage. All these are in evidence in the Tibetan situation.

The arrogance is seen in the summary dismissal of the Dalai Lama’s plea for dialogue, even when he has repeatedly insisted that he seeks only genuine autonomy for Tibet and not independence.

Beijing keeps on demonizing him. They have almost called him a terrorist. He has been described in the Chinese media as “a wolf in a monk’s robe, a monster with a human face but with the heart of a beast.”

They have ignored his call for an international investigation of his presumed role in the Tibetan unrest.

Indeed, he has earned the ire of his youthful Tibetan followers for advocating autonomy and not independence, counseling non-violence and threatening to resign if things were to get out of control.

Above all, he supports the Beijing Olympics, even in the midst of strong calls for its boycott in some quarters.

At the same time, as Tibet’s leader he has highlighted the cultural genocide being committed in Tibet over the years and the unmitigated disaster caused by Han Chinese migration into his homeland.

Following the process, the Tibetans are now a marginalized people.

China had hoped to solve the Tibetan problem by hiving off parts of the old country and merging them into the neighboring Han provinces, reducing Tibetans to a hopeless minority.

And, in what is now called Tibet, they are in the process of being overwhelmed by the Han Chinese migration.

But it has not worked satisfactorily, considering that even in the neighboring western provinces with residual Tibetan populations, Tibetans have staged strong protests.

The problem is that the Tibetans feel a strong sense of loss and a consequent frustration and anger at the way Beijing has stripped them of their cultural heritage.

The Han Chinese surround them on all sides, flaunting their new money and power. In this new order, the Tibetans increasingly feature as a people of yesterday and their monasteries and temples are the subject of curiosity by visiting Chinese tourists. The Tibetans, therefore, feel homeless in their own country.

In this situation of intense alienation, the Dalai Lama has come to represent everything that they are denied — their country, their culture and traditions, their one reference point for all the loss they feel. Tibetans feel an intense desire to be one with him.

But Beijing’s arrogance not to acknowledge his important role and to demonize him tends to only aggravate the Tibetan problem.

Beijing is simply waiting for him to die, as he is already into his 70s. After him, they will appoint their own Dalai Lama and, presto, the Tibet problem will be solved.

What China fails to realize is that Tibet is a problem because its occupation has no legitimacy among Tibetan people. And, if they have not been able to win over the local population over the last 50 or so years, the legitimacy issue remains. In fact, it is getting worse.

They really need the Dalai Lama if they want to solve the Tibet issue. With his espousal of autonomy for Tibet, Beijing can create a new compact with its sovereignty intact. This would leave Tibetans to manage their own internal and cultural affairs, while China could deal with its foreign relations.

But this would be too much of a compromise for China’s communist leaders who are used to having their own way at whatever cost.

Just look at the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989, when the army was let loose on students who demanded democratic rights. Naively, China thought it could do the same thing in Tibet.

In the midst of such monumental arrogance, China’s ruling oligarchy also suffers from a deep-rooted sense of victimization. If they are criticized for their human rights violations in Tibet or on any other issue, they immediately cry foul and believe that there is a conspiracy abroad to deny China its rightful place under the sun.

And this is, they would argue, because Western countries have not got over their superior imperialist disdain of China.

All this contributes to a moral outrage that China, which gave so much to the world, should be regarded morally deficient. “How dare they lecture us,” goes the refrain?

Beijing’s view is that China has pulled Tibet out of the dark ages. The Tibetan people and the world should, therefore, be grateful to China rather than lambaste it because of the riots engineered by the Dalai Lama clique.

The Dalai Lama is accused of plotting “terror” in Tibet, in collusion with Uighur separatists in Xinjiang.

If China’s communist rulers can believe this, they apparently live in a world of make-believe.

And this is the problem the world is faced with when dealing with China, whether it is in regard to Tibet, Taiwan or whatever.

[MFW]

Oh listen my lovely eastern friends, you will never catch me.

I am fleet of foot and fleeter of mind. I've got a mind as sharp as a tack and a tongue that's even sharper.

I duck and slide....like a GOD, and am capable of landing some very vicious counter-parries.

I flurry like the snow, and then I heat it up and make it rain down upon you.

Quarter will be neither asked nor given my friends.

Welcome to a house of pain!

You're absolutely right Sammy, you are fleet of foot.

You duck and slide indeed. You disappear whenever things get tough.

Pretty hard to catch somebody who always runs away from a fight.

[michecon]

In this new order, the Tibetans increasingly feature as a people of yesterday and their monasteries and temples are the subject of curiosity by visiting Chinese tourists. The Tibetans, therefore, feel homeless in their own country.
____________________________________________________________ ______

LOL, bravo, what writing skill!

[pirc1]

So it is fine for Chinese to be killed in Tibet because they occupied Tibetan land, I am guess all these people support the killing of Jews in Isreal by Arabs because they have lived there for 2000 years. Do we see any extreme statements like that on any other country but China?

[LouisianaRocket]

It looks like the mob is not just targeting Han Chinese, but Moslems and other minorities as well. So much for the Dalai Lama's claim of tolerance and non-violence.

Many police badly hurt, mosque ablaze in Tibet: Chinese media

BEIJING, March 15 (AFP) Mar 14, 2008

Many police officers were badly injured in clashes in Tibet's capital Lhasa, Chinese state media said Saturday, also reporting that a mosque and other buildings had been set on fire.
Xinhua news agency blamed Friday's unrest on rioters "carrying backpacks filled with stones and bottles of inflammable liquids, some holding iron bars, wooden sticks and long knifes." It reported cases of burn injuries.

Xinhua said the violence had died down Friday night, although wreckages of vehicles were left ablaze on roads in the area of downtown Lhasa where the clashes had taken place.


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/post-219-1205525888.jpg
http://www.sinodaily.com/2006/080314192427.nebu3lml.html

was that before or after the Chinese Government started murdering?

[MFW]

Some ridiculous article

I couldn't help snickering at this one. On one hand the "Free Tibet" groups claim that China is destroying Tibetan culture with its materialism, on the other hand, those same "Free Tibet" group claim China's economic policy benefit only ethnic Hans.

Which one is it? Should they be left languishing in the Dark Ages or modernized and materialized? Can they make up their mind? I guess some people just want to have their cake and eat it too.

was that before or after the Chinese Government started murdering?

Neither. It was after your right brain failed but before your left brain did the same.

[yuantian]

was that before or after the Chinese Government started murdering?

you mean riot control? yes, it was after the riot turned violent. the police was unprepared. the government was reluctant. well, good thing is that not too many people got killed.

[LouisianaRocket]

you mean riot control? yes, it was after the riot turned violent. the police was unprepared. the government was reluctant. well, good thing is that not too many people got killed.

In China they consider protesters as rioters?

[yuantian]

In China they consider protesters as rioters?

no, they consider rioters rioters. protesters they just take away and release later if you are not serious. they only lock up the organizers of anti-government folks. but if you start a riot that endanger the safety of others, they will try to arrest you first, if too hard to control, they will shoot you. i don't know if they will charge you the bullet though.

[namo]

In China they consider protesters as rioters?
Go straight to your neighbor's (if any) house and burn his car, then call yourself a protester.

[longhornchampno]

Nonsense Shampoo - a chaotic Chinese economy would be bad for my investment portfolio.

Anyway, I love all my chinese brothers and sisters, especially the sisters. I want them to be democratized and free like the worthy people of Taiwan - one of my favorite countries on earth.

Too bad they don't like a biased hypocrite whose daytime job is to conduct propaganda in an internet forum.

[KingCheetah]

I hardly have to sling insults.

Your stupidity...

You're a walking embarrassment....

http://i29.tinypic.com/o9k8lt.jpg

[kpsta]

I'm disappointed that this thread has moved so quickly away from the topic of steamy phone sex between Mr. and Mrs. MFW. :(

[yobod]

No one here cares that if the current Chinese government collapse and China fall into chaos

Couldn't the same be said about most government structures?
That doesn't justify what they're doing.

[SamFisher]

http://i29.tinypic.com/o9k8lt.jpg

This card is artfully done but historically inaccurate - the lands of Deverenia have ALWAYS been part of China. Back in the year 832 the Grand Caretaker of the Royal Deverenian stables bet his descendants sovreignty on a coin flip - accordingly PRC has rights to develop this integral area and liberate the Deverenian serfs from their feudal lords. If China has to give back Deverenian lands than US should give Rhode Island back to Dusty Rhodes, despite his fair and square loss of numerous Indian strap matches.

[stq]

I don't think the western media is just a propaganda machine. I do believe most of those reporters have good intention and are "want to do my part to make the world a better place" type of person.

But the problem is that majority of them have never exposed to a different view point. Their line of thinking is just too simple, it usually goes like this:
Chinese government is run by a communist part => it must be bad, anything it does must be bad => thus, anyone agaist them must be good. => Tibetans are right, chinese government is wrong, any claims by exile tibetans must be right......
Then you combine this with the "shangri-la utopia" image, which by the way has only existed in the western imagniation and couldn't be further away from the truth, you have the current wave of pro-tibet, anti-China reports.

I understand where they are coming from, but that doesn't change the fact that most of them are wrong and are baseless.

For those of you who truly care about Tibet, why don't you go read some real history books to improve your understanding of Tibet? Instead of being brainwashed by the media and free-tibet group?

[yeo]

This brave woman is becoming a big hero in China. They should have her light the Olympic flame at the opening ceremonies.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/post-8-1207666410.jpg

[yeo]

For those of you who truly care about Tibet,

You know what? The reality is that very few of them actually give a damn about Tibet or the Tibetans. The western liberal's eternal concern is feeling good about themselves.

The left really don't share much in terms of values and belief system with the Tibetans. Rather they have a shared cosmology in a romanticized rebellion against the establishment. This combined with the transference of White guilt of colonial exploitation onto a third party they can bash is the reptilian brains behind the left wing China bashing.

These free-Tibet hippies are obviously out to stoke their own egos in the sense that they "stood up to da man" by shaking their little pink fists at the big bad Chinese. In reality, there will be hell to pay in Tibet when the olympics are over and the world's eyes will have turned to something else. Those Tibetans that participated in the riots are numerous and justice will be meted out long after the last foreign tourist has left Beijing. If those Tibet independance hippies really cared about what happens to the Tibetans they'd think twice before attacking some torch-bearer in a wheelchair. All they've succeeded in doing is creating hatred in the average Chinese person and hardening the government's attitude towards their "homeland."

[FranchiseBlade]

You know what? The reality is that very few of them actually give a damn about Tibet or the Tibetans. The western liberal's eternal concern is feeling good about themselves.

The left really don't share much in terms of values and belief system with the Tibetans. Rather they have a shared cosmology in a romanticized rebellion against the establishment. This combined with the transference of White guilt of colonial exploitation onto a third party they can bash is the reptilian brains behind the left wing China bashing.

These free-Tibet hippies are obviously out to stoke their own egos in the sense that they "stood up to da man" by shaking their little pink fists at the big bad Chinese. In reality, there will be hell to pay in Tibet when the olympics are over and the world's eyes will have turned to something else. Those Tibetans that participated in the riots are numerous and justice will be meted out long after the last foreign tourist has left Beijing. If those Tibet independance hippies really cared about what happens to the Tibetans they'd think twice before attacking some torch-bearer in a wheelchair. All they've succeeded in doing is creating hatred in the average Chinese person and hardening the government's attitude towards their "homeland."Probably those are some of the reasons they are protesting along with the fact that they don't like seeing innocent tibetan protesters beaten and shot.

[MR. MEOWGI]

You know what? The reality is that very few of them actually give a damn about Tibet or the Tibetans. The western liberal's eternal concern is feeling good about themselves.

The left really don't share much in terms of values and belief system with the Tibetans. Rather they have a shared cosmology in a romanticized rebellion against the establishment. This combined with the transference of White guilt of colonial exploitation onto a third party they can bash is the reptilian brains behind the left wing China bashing.

These free-Tibet hippies are obviously out to stoke their own egos in the sense that they "stood up to da man" by shaking their little pink fists at the big bad Chinese. In reality, there will be hell to pay in Tibet when the olympics are over and the world's eyes will have turned to something else. Those Tibetans that participated in the riots are numerous and justice will be meted out long after the last foreign tourist has left Beijing. If those Tibet independance hippies really cared about what happens to the Tibetans they'd think twice before attacking some torch-bearer in a wheelchair. All they've succeeded in doing is creating hatred in the average Chinese person and hardening the government's attitude towards their "homeland."

The East smells funny.

[yeo]

This brave woman is becoming a big hero in China. They should have her light the Olympic flame at the opening ceremonies.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/post-8-1207666410.jpg

A new hero is born everyday.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/1207632207_35548.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/26_30309_645f5ce1a072bb5.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/1207638849_70100.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/1_259937185O285648093.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/1_jinjing.jpg

[yeo]

Probably those are some of the reasons they are protesting along with the fact that they don't like seeing innocent tibetan protesters beaten and shot.

LOL, you are still going on with that "innocent protestor" crap? Ahh, the power of propaganda. Tell you what, why don't you tell me where you live, and I will come burn your house down, preferably with you and your family inside, as a form of "peaceful protest".

[langal]

You know what? The reality is that very few of them actually give a damn about Tibet or the Tibetans. The western liberal's eternal concern is feeling good about themselves.

The left really don't share much in terms of values and belief system with the Tibetans. Rather they have a shared cosmology in a romanticized rebellion against the establishment. This combined with the transference of White guilt of colonial exploitation onto a third party they can bash is the reptilian brains behind the left wing China bashing.

These free-Tibet hippies are obviously out to stoke their own egos in the sense that they "stood up to da man" by shaking their little pink fists at the big bad Chinese. In reality, there will be hell to pay in Tibet when the olympics are over and the world's eyes will have turned to something else. Those Tibetans that participated in the riots are numerous and justice will be meted out long after the last foreign tourist has left Beijing. If those Tibet independance hippies really cared about what happens to the Tibetans they'd think twice before attacking some torch-bearer in a wheelchair. All they've succeeded in doing is creating hatred in the average Chinese person and hardening the government's attitude towards their "homeland."

There is some truth in what you say. Many of the same hippies would probably scream for the head of some white Christian dictator.

[MR. MEOWGI]

LOL, you are still going on with that "innocent protestor" crap? Ahh, the power of propaganda. Tell you what, why don't you tell me where you live, and I will come burn your house down, preferably with you and your family inside, as a form of "peaceful protest".

Your piece of crap country won't even show what is going on. (or they probably said that the Dalai Lama was directing it from top of the Eiffel Tower). THAT is propaganda.

[SamFisher]

^ yes but we would be perfectly content to be ruled from Beijing by an unaccountable authoritarian dictatorship. Or not.

Looks like a lot of you guys agree - which is one of many reasons why you are here and not there.

[langal]

^ yes but we would be perfectly content to be ruled from Beijing by an unaccountable authoritarian dictatorship. Or not.

Looks like a lot of you guys agree - which is one of many reasons why you are here and not there.


I was born in the US and have as much right or reason to be here as you or any "real" American.

I do love this country. Just because I think there are 2 sides to the Tibet issue does not mean that I should move to China.

[underoverup]

A new hero is born everyday.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/1_jinjing.jpg

why is she standing in the last picture? :confused:

[SamFisher]

I was born in the US and have as much right or reason to be here as you or any "real" American.

I do love this country. Just because I think there are 2 sides to the Tibet issue does not mean that I should move to China.

Nobody said you should move to China - but a lot of Chinese Americans for one reason or another obviously have some kind of problem with the Chinese government's unaccountable authoritarian ways (much like Tibetans and many Americans) - which is one of the reasons why they came here to begin with.

Now, many will differ and say, no, they or their families. emigrated for economic reasons. To that I say that it's no coincidence that a mature (though imperfect) democracy with accountability, rule of law, etc has created a more desirable economic atmosphere than a heavy handed authoritarian one-party dictatorship.

[yeo]

Your piece of crap country won't even show what is going on. (or they probably said that the Dalai Lama was directing it from top of the Eiffel Tower). THAT is propaganda.

Oh, au contraire, the Commies are having a field day showing exactly what's going on. These events are uniting the Chinese worldwide like nothing since World War II. You think the Chinese are going to watch a crippled girl getting beat up and think "oh those poor Tibetans"?

[yeo]

Hopefully the SFPD is gonna do a better job than the incompetent French.

Olympic Torch In S.F.
Full Coverage: Videos, torchbearers, map
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/a-torch...7420384764.html

(04-08) 05:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- The Olympic flame arrived in San Francisco from Paris early this morning under cover of darkness and security typically reserved for head of state visits.

A contingent of San Francisco leaders, including City Administrator Ed Lee and business consultant Rose Pak, joined Bay Area Olympians to welcome Beijing Olympic officials bearing the flame in a rectangular gilt and crystal lantern at San Francisco International Airport’s Gate 94.

"I was giggling like a teenager," said Pak, one of the most influential figures in San Francisco's Chinatown, after watching the flame arrive shortly before 4 a.m. "I felt immense pride and excitement."

The arriving Olympic officials disembarked an Airbus A330 jet designated "Air China 2008" about 3:40 a.m., paused briefly for photographs, went through customs and left the airport through a side entrance. They were then whisked into the city, where the torch will remain overnight in an undisclosed location before Wednesday’s torch run.

It's the only North American stop for the Olympic flame, which has generated heated protests during previous stops in London and Paris. Seven protestors were arrested Monday in San Francisco after three of them scaled suspension cables on the Golden Gate Bridge and unfurled banners supporting Tibetan independence 150 feet over the roadway.

No protestors were evident at San Francisco International Airport, which was largely deserted except for a heavy police and media presence.

Several San Francisco police officers guarded every entrance to the international terminal and patrolled heavily outside. Initially some officers outside wore riot gear. The U.S. State Department, Secret Service and customs official were also part of the security contingent, airport spokesman Michael McCarron said. He declined to comment on how many officers were on hand, saying simply "a lot."

San Francisco officials say they are confident the city will host a successful Olympic torch run Wednesday and avoid a repeat of the chaos that engulfed the relay in Paris, where police were forced to extinguish torches and carry the flame in a bus.

But Mayor Gavin Newsom said the protests in Paris in London on Sunday would result in changes in San Francisco's plans for the flame when 80 runners carry it through the city's streets.

Newsom said the planned 6-mile torch route along the central waterfront and around Fisherman's Wharf could change up to and even during the relay. Police said security plans would include having officers run alongside torchbearers to protect them and the flame from any protesters who might try to disrupt the run.

Scenes in Paris and London of demonstrators trying to grab torches from runners and put out the flame with fire extinguishers "obviously play a part in our security approach and will play a part in terms of our making any final decisions," Newsom said.

One torch runner in San Francisco has already bowed out because of concern about the run, said David Perry, a spokesman for the city's Olympic torch preparations. Perry declined to go into details about the runner who bowed out, citing privacy concerns.

As the flame's only North American stop, San Francisco is attracting protesters from around the country who want to advocate for a range of causes, most notably China's human rights record toward Tibet and Falun Gong practitioners and Beijing's policies toward Burma and the Darfur region of Sudan.

City officials were concerned with both the rights of protestors to voice their position and for supporters of the Beijing games to carry out a successful torch run, Perry said.

"I like to think in San Francisco we know how to do a protest," Perry said. "Here in San Francisco we’re not the type to jump on people in a wheelchair to try to snuff out the flame."

E-mail John Coté at jcote@sfchronicle.com.

[langal]

Nobody said you should move to China - but a lot of Chinese Americans for one reason or another obviously have some kind of problem with the Chinese government's unaccountable authoritarian ways (much like Tibetans and many Americans) - which is one of the reasons why they came here to begin with.

Now, many will differ and say, no, they or their families. emigrated for economic reasons. To that I say that it's no coincidence that a mature (though imperfect) democracy with accountability, rule of law, etc has created a more desirable economic atmosphere than a heavy handed authoritarian one-party dictatorship.

Agree with you on the first point but not on the second. I think rule of law promotes economy but not necessarily democracy.

I carried a poster outside the Chinese Embassy during Tian An Men. The PRC does have its problems and I used to be very anti-PRC when I was younger.

Since then, I've actually been back to China and talked to more nationals. Now I realize that there are 2 sides to every "China" issue. The people there are getting more materially wealthy and are getting more freedoms.

The PRC still has a lot of problems and I do think they definitely need a public relations consultant.

[yeo]

why is she standing in the last picture? :confused:

Uhm, she does have one leg.

[SamFisher]

Agree with you on the first point but not on the second. I think rule of law promotes economy but not necessarily democracy.



I don't know about "promotes" but it's impossible to have a truly democratic government without a reasonable amount of rule of law translating directly into accountability.

Obviously in every democratic regime the haves and the lawmakers are able to bend rule of law in their favor to an extent....but ultimately, if there is a functional, independent mean of holding them accountable (elections, law enforcement) etc - it will generally happen at some point (see e.g. the Republican congress getting voted out in 2006, or the prosecutions of the Enron crooks).

[langal]

I don't know about "promotes" but it's impossible to have a truly democratic government without a reasonable amount of rule of law translating directly into accountability.

Obviously in every democratic regime the haves and the lawmakers are able to bend rule of law in their favor to an extent....but ultimately, if there is a functional, independent mean of holding them accountable (elections, law enforcement) etc - it will generally happen at some point (see e.g. the Republican congress getting voted out in 2006, or the prosecutions of the Enron crooks).

Doesn't the Mandate of Heaven trump any human laws?

[FranchiseBlade]

LOL, you are still going on with that "innocent protestor" crap? Ahh, the power of propaganda. Tell you what, why don't you tell me where you live, and I will come burn your house down, preferably with you and your family inside, as a form of "peaceful protest".
I didn't say all were peaceful, but we've seen the video of peaceful protestors being shot. We've seen the stories about monks being beaten for painting a building white.

That stuff isn't propaganda.

[foofy]

This brave woman is becoming a big hero in China. They should have her light the Olympic flame at the opening ceremonies.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee51/yesphotos_album/temporary/post-8-1207666410.jpg

F...U...C...K that tibetan

kok.foo.yap@exactsoftware.com

[stq]

^ yes but we would be perfectly content to be ruled from Beijing by an unaccountable authoritarian dictatorship. Or not.

Looks like a lot of you guys agree - which is one of many reasons why you are here and not there.
see? this is exactly the type of brainwash I was talking about.

current chinese government is communist, they dont' have true democracy, ===>> thus, everything they do, everything they say must be wrong

linear way of thinking, unable to understand complicated issues....should I call this intellectually challenged? :rolleyes:

[stq]

Agree with you on the first point but not on the second. I think rule of law promotes economy but not necessarily democracy.

I carried a poster outside the Chinese Embassy during Tian An Men. The PRC does have its problems and I used to be very anti-PRC when I was younger.

Since then, I've actually been back to China and talked to more nationals. Now I realize that there are 2 sides to every "China" issue. The people there are getting more materially wealthy and are getting more freedoms.

The PRC still has a lot of problems and I do think they definitely need a public relations consultant.
Word !

I grandfather was thrown in jail and beaten to death during the culture revolution and my parents were sent to country side to do hard labor at age of 17. Needless to say, I was pretty anti-CCP when I was young. But when you grow older, you start to see the other side of the story, you start to see things are alot more complex than it appears.

Just because chinese government doesn't fit your image for a good government, but make everything they do automatically wrong.
Facts are still facts, free-tibet is just a totally baseless lie. On this Tibet issue you will find alot of ppl like me, who are otherwise neutral, come out and support beijing.

[SamFisher]

see? this is exactly the type of brainwash I was talking about.

current chinese government is communist, they dont' have true democracy, ===>> thus, everything they do, everything they say must be wrong

linear way of thinking, unable to understand complicated issues....should I call this intellectually challenged? :rolleyes:
I love it when people try to look smart and end up looking silly.

Yes the CCP is communist in name but their economic system is free of most communistic tendencies so I find that label meaningless at this point. SO you're basically wrong on that score.

Even the most hardcore PRC defenders will not shy away from the fact that the PRC operates an authoritarian (look it up) system of government.

I suppose calling it a dictatorship is wrong insofar as there is no single individual dictator as there was in the Mao days - it certainly is a one party dictatorship however.

Finally - as for the lack of accountability - tell me next time you vote for or against Uncle Hu. Yeah...I thought so.

[longhornchampno]

I love it when people try to look smart and end up looking silly.

Yes the CCP is communist in name but their economic system is free of most communistic tendencies so I find that label meaningless at this point. SO you're basically wrong on that score.

Even the most hardcore PRC defenders will not shy away from the fact that the PRC operates an authoritarian (look it up) system of government.

I suppose calling it a dictatorship is wrong insofar as there is no single individual dictator as there was in the Mao days - it certainly is a one party dictatorship however.

Finally - as for the lack of accountability - tell me next time you vote for or against Uncle Hu. Yeah...I thought so.

I found SamFisher is starting to talk with some sense lately. I still can't believe that I actually agree with some of the stuffs that he said today. :eek:

[yuantian]

Foofster - you seem to be really unclear on the mechanisms for using the ignore list function.

you have to login your account for that to work, don't you?

[yuantian]

I found SamFisher is starting to talk with some sense lately. I still can't believe that I actually agree with some of the stuffs that he said today. :eek:

lol, what's the difference between 1 party and 2 parties? maybe they should just break the party apart and label, leftist party and rightist party, or middleman. that's essentially what it is right now.

[stq]

I suppose calling it a dictatorship is wrong insofar as there is no single individual dictator as there was in the Mao days - it certainly is a one party dictatorship however.

Finally - as for the lack of accountability - tell me next time you vote for or against Uncle Hu. Yeah...I thought so.
see? here we go again......

Hu is not elected in an democratic way that fits the western understanding => everything he does must be wrong.

dude...you really need to learn how to think logically....

[MFW]

...[/IMG]

Funny thing is, a moron posting silly pictures is still a moron.

[Apollo Creed]

Funny thing is, a moron posting silly pictures is still a moron.

Really...

[SamFisher]

Uh, oh, it's time for Emperor MFW the Merciless' customary late afternoon internet rampage. Now that the markets have closed he's free to train his devastating internet salvos on all of China's tormentors

Better put it on DEFCON 2!

[MFW]

Uh, oh, it's time for Emperor MFW the Merciless' customary late afternoon internet rampage. Now that the markets have closed he's free to train his devastating internet salvos on all of China's tormentors

Better put it on DEFCON 2!

And Sammy is here to dodge the issue once again with some worthless jab, running away immediately afterwards.

But hey, if posting some pathetic picture is as a cheap thrill is as good as a debate, I'm game:

Brave Sir Sam ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Sam turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Sam!

He is packing it in and packing it up
And sneaking away and buggering up
And chickening out and pissing off home,
Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge...

http://www.geocities.com/fang_club/Sir_robin_part_3_pic.jpg

[SamFisher]

^ HA HA HA YOUR PATHETIC ATTEMPTS AT HUMOR ARE SO PATHETIC, MAYBE EVEN MORE PATHETIC THAN YOUR TINY PATHETIC BRAIN

[MFW]

^ HA HA HA YOUR PATHETIC ATTEMPTS AT HUMOR ARE SO PATHETIC, MAYBE EVEN MORE PATHETIC THAN YOUR TINY PATHETIC BRAIN

Some pathetic poster of somebody waving a book. I win.

[clutch11]

Word !




I am a "70% Supportor" of Culture Revolution. :D

[KingCheetah]

Some pathetic poster...

http://i32.tinypic.com/ei8v4k.jpg

[yeo]

Tibet: The Truth (oppression, monks, nuns... you're wrong)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY&eurl

[pippendagimp]

I literally got a bowl of caramel popcorn made and am going to review today's posts in here now :)

[yuantian]

Tibet: The Truth (oppression, monks, nuns... you're wrong)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY&eurl

great video. thanks. :D not everyone is ignorant in the west. hail to peace and harmony.

[KingCheetah]

I hardly have to sling insults.

...moron ...moron.

http://i31.tinypic.com/fmigxk.jpg

[yeo]

LMAO, one of my friends just emailed from SF, said on the local news last night, a reporter pulled out a map and asked some white protestors where Tibet was on the map and they couldn't do it. Guess my little moron "free-tibet" friend from a few years back wasn't alone after all. :D

[yeo]

Now here is someone who DOES know where Tibet is.

Elisabeth Martens interviewed in "Le Courrier" (http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/qa-on-tibet/)

Q&A on Tibet
Elisabeth Martens interviewed in "Le Courrier"

by Bénito Perez / April 4th, 2008

Elisabeth Martens was interviewed by Bénito Perez for Le Courrier in Geneva on 27 March 2008. Here is the entire interview in which she directly answers all questions on the history, recent events, repression, the Dalai Lama, and the social problems of Tibet.

Bénito Perez: Can you briefly introduce yourself? How did you become interested in Tibet and China?

Elizabeth Martens: I spent three years in China, after studying biology in Belgium, in order to specialize in traditional Chinese medicine. Of course, I took advantage of my stay there to travel throughout China—from north to south, and east to west. One of my trips in 1990 took me for the first time to a Tibetan region (i.e., inhabited by Tibetans), XiaHe in Gansu, to the great Tibetan Buddhist monastery of Labulang. I was surprised by the ease with which one could make contact with the Lamas who walked the streets and shopped at the corner grocery store; it was far from the image of our own monks who were cloistered behind their walls.

I was also surprised by the difference between the Chinese Buddhas, round as teapots mildly brewing on the stove, smiling, jolly, and the Tibetan Buddhas, much more imposing. And still more surprised to find in the Tibetan temples an incredible quantity of representations of the gods, of monsters, of Bodhisattvas, and such, one more ferocious and frightening than the next. I found that, in a certain way, this was a lot like what you find in the chamber of horrors in our churches, men impaled, crucified, or thrown into pots of boiling oil, and so on. Nothing like what is in Chinese art: in Chinese thought, and thus in the arts of China, suffering and the means by which it is brought about are not central preoccupations. From what must one free oneself at the moment when one realizes that suffering is only the flip side of well-being? I found in the Tibetan regions, where I returned several times after that (the last time in the summer of 2007), a very different culture from the Chinese. This difference seemed interesting to me: how could a country as huge as China (larger than all of Europe) reconcile 55 nationalities, each speaking its own language, especially with the disproportionate presence of the Han (about 90% of the population of China) as compared to the other nationalities?

BP: What happened, according to your information (and what are your sources?), recently in those regions of China populated by Tibetans?

EM: The violence which went down in Lhasa on 14 March 2008 was perpetrated by groups of Tibetan demonstrators. The testimony of foreigners present at the time was in agreement on this point: the aggression targeted the Chinese (the Han) and the Hui, a majority of whom are Muslims. Some people were burned alive, others were beaten, stabbed or stoned to death. The weapons used were Molotov cocktails, stones, iron bars, shanks and butcher knives. There were 22 dead and more than 300 wounded, nearly all were Hui and Han. These were criminal acts of a racist character. Serge Lachapelle, a tourist from Montreal, said: “The Muslim quarter was completely destroyed, not a single store was left standing.”

By the 18th of March, the Dalai Lama declared at a press conference that “the events in Tibet got out of control and that he is prepared to resign if the violence continues.” He added that “these acts of violence are suicidal.” It did not stop, just a few days later, through a strange bit of scheduling, US Senate Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi, from showing up in Dharamsala for an official visit to the 14th Dalai Lama. She spoke of the events in Tibet as “a challenge to the conscience of the world” and demanded that China send and independent international commission to Tibet to verify the Chinese accusation that “the clique of the Dalai Lama was behind the violence”, and to check on “the manner in which the Chinese are treating their Tibetan prisoners.” This is one of the strategies used by the US: to force China to accept the teams of inspectors who carry the cachet of “Human Rights”, or to be able to say that China refused to accept them. There is no one better suited to pull off such a plan than the Dalai Lama: in his speech of 10 March, he had already demanded that China demonstrate “a greater transparency.”

Aren’t these terms curiously resonant of glasnost, which led to the break-up of the USSR? Germany, the avant-garde of Europe, lined up behind the demands for transparency made by the US: the German Minister of Foreign Affairs declared “the German Federal government demands greater transparency on the part of the Chinese government.” But the Chinese authorities speak of a premeditated and well-organized revolt. The occasion chosen to give the green light to the rioters was the anniversary of the 1959 revolt in Lhasa, a date the Tibetans in exile have declared a “National Holiday”: 10 March. On this day, a march from India to Tibet was effectively begun. It was supposed to go on for six months: until the opening of the Olympic Games in Peking. This march was organized by the “Movement for the Uprising of the Tibetan People”, an organization in which were represented the principal factions of the Tibetan government in exile: the NDP (New Democratic Party), the Tibetan Youth Congress, and the Women’s Movement.

10 March was clearly the signal to kick-off the riots: they were encouraged from abroad by multiple demonstrations in front of Chinese Embassies (e.g., in Brussels). Even in China, fliers calling for independence for Tibet were distributed in Tibetan regions. The same day, 300 Lamas from the monastery in Drepung demonstrated in the center of Lhasa in a non-violent but “provocative” manner; the police dispersed the demonstrators without clashes. This was not the case a few days later on the 14th of March: several Tibetan groups, all armed in the same way and operating in the same manner, were dispersed in city of Lhasa, bringing on hostilities and creating panic. What followed was the drama that we saw, with the anticipated repression by the Chinese. It should be remembered that international law stipulates, “Every country has the right to use force against independence movements aimed at dividing that country.” Imagine the havoc that would ensue in France if Corsican separatists set fire to French civilians in the middle of Ajacio!

BP: The general analysis of the riots has been that they were “a reaction to the colonization of Tibet by the Chinese”? There has even been talk of genocide? What’s up with this?

EM: When we speak of the “colonization” of one country by another, there should be, at least, two countries. In this particular case, we should remember that Tibet has never been recognized as an “independent country”. In the 13th century, the Mongols annexed Tibet to China, and in the 18th century the Manchus divided the Chinese empire into 18 provinces, Tibet being one of them. At the end of the 19th century, the British Empire invaded Tibet and installed their trading posts.

This happened under the reign of the 13th DL, who saw in the British occupation of Tibet an opportunity to claim independence. The basis for this was what was called “Greater Tibet”, a territory five times the size of France, about a third of China, and which corresponds more or less (because there were no maps at this time) to the territory of Tibet at the end of the Tubo dynasty of the 9th century. But China at the beginning of the 20th century had just come out of a territorial auction in which it had ceded a number of “concessions” to Western countries. To give up a third of its territory was to sign it own death warrant. So this demand for independence was inconceivable. That is to say that neither the UN nor any of its member states ever recognized Tibet as an independent country. This is an initial answer to your question.

A second answer is that when we use the term “colonization”, it implies that the invading country profits from the assets of the invaded country. But, if we consider the last fifty years in Tibet, we notice the opposite phenomenon. The Tibetan population has tripled thanks to the health care system and the rapid improvement of living standards. Which was, in fact, not difficult to achieve given the disastrous conditions under which 90% of the Tibetans lived under the theocratic regime of the Dalai Lamas. In any case, this improvement was not as fast as in the larger Chinese cities, which, with their gleaming spires, have made the whole world believe that China has turned capitalist. It’s crazy what you can make people believe with a few sequins, some lights and some big store windows. To answer your second question, about genocide, we must once more go back into history. In 1949, with the advent of the Peoples Republic of China, the Chinese government chose to set the odometer back to zero: all foreigners and foreign influences were shown the door, and all the borders were reasserted, even those in distant provinces like Tibet. In 1956, an armed rebellion was organized in several Tibetan monasteries (e.g., Litang and Drepung): the Peoples Republic of China targeted the Tibetan dignitaries, those of the clergy in particular. And so it was this part of the population that began to flee into India and which would make up the Tibetan community in exile (just as the exodus for Taiwan was made up mainly of the larger Chinese families).

This armed rebellion was from its beginnings financially and logistically supported by the CIA. For what reason? All you have to do to understand this is read a report by the US State Dept from April 1949: “Tibet has become strategically and ideologically important. Since the independence of Tibet could serve the struggle against communism, it is in our interests to recognize Tibet as independent. (…) However, it is not Tibet that interests us, it is the attitude we must adopt toward China.” It doesn’t get much clearer than that! The armed rebellion, which began in the monastery in Litang, spread in waves to Lhasa, where the most important action took place, and was put down by the Red Army in 1959. After this event, it was of great importance to the US to conduct public opinion to believe that there was a genocide, and that’s why the figure of 1.2 million dead was put out by the Tibetan Buddhist authorities in exile.

Several demographic studies later showed that this figure was made up out of whole cloth. Patrick French, former director of “Free Tibet”, verified this on the spot in Dharamsala. After a lengthy review of the “official” documents putting out this figure, he became completely disgusted with the magnitude of the falsifications coming from those he had admired. He recounts this episode in his book. What is important to remember in this falsification is that if we speak of 1.2 million dead from a population of barely 2 million inhabitants, we could well be talking about a “genocide”. But if it’s actually a matter of a few thousand dead on both sides, then it’s no longer a genocide, but more like a civil war. This figure of 1.2 million dead was allowed to manipulate public opinion toward a distrusting, unto xenophobia, of the Chinese. It has been the same story for 50 years. So, if we analyze the historical facts, we can no longer speak of either an invasion, or of colonization, or of genocide. The riots which took place in March 2008 must be analyzed, first of all, in an economic context, without forgetting that Tibet has been for a long time now one of the fields of battle between the US and China.

BP: The violence of the demonstrations does not jibe with the pacifism advocated by the DL. Why?

EM: The DL and his entourage carry the banner of pacifism and have cultivated the image of tolerance and compassion that has come to be associated with Tibetan Buddhism, or so it is believed in the West, right? Yet the DL still takes time to stir up public opinion over the peaceful demonstration of 300 monks from Drepung in the streets of Lhasa on the 10th of March and immediately charges the Chinese police with repression (and it should be noted here in passing that—and anyone who has been to Tibet can confirm this—the forces of order are essentially made up of Tibetans and depend very little on the Chinese). When these violent acts had reached a level of unspeakable barbarity, he quickly distanced himself from the events. What role did he play in the events? To determine this, you have to look at who profited from these riots: neither the Chinese, nor the six million Tibetans living in China. The riots essentially served to stir up public opinion over China’s Human Rights violations, the lack of freedom of expression, and the various repressions that we charge the Chinese government with. So, this uprising served to give China a terrible image, and this just before the Olympics were to gather the world press in Peking.

I think that, in part, they reflect the enormous fear that we have of the economic power represented by today’s China. It’s true that in some ways China is still part of the Third World, but in others ways, it threatens to catch up with us very quickly and even to surpass us. Few people here [in the West—ed] are aware of China’s huge intellectual potential and that this mass of Chinese intellectuals have begun to see themselves being under the constant repression and denigration of the West. They will not remain silent much longer. To recap, I think that these riots served to further darken the image of China: provoked by these racialist riots in the Tibetan regions, China was obliged to bring out its big guns, and so we can speak honorably of a “savage repression” exerted by the Chinese government at the time of these “ethnic incidents”.

It’s the same old song: we’ve heard it constantly since 1989 (with conflicts in Africa, the Balkans, Iraq, and those that went to breaking up the USSR). It should be noted also that at the heart of the Tibetan exile community, there is a schism becoming more and more apparent: on the one hand, there are the moderates, including the DL, who do not advocate violence (not openly, at least), and who do not even demand independence, but speak of “growing autonomy”, as we know. On the other hand, and at the moment it is a majority faction within the government in exile, there are the radicals who demand total independence and are ready to take up arms to achieve it. You can imagine that such discourse would be impossible to maintain without the support of their allies of 50 years: the US, which also continues to finance and arm the Tibetan community in exile. In reality, today the US has two war horses it can use simultaneously: the DL and his followers (in Europe, especially) from whom comes the pacifist line that serves to rally Western intellectuals around the themes of “democracy”, “Human Rights”, “Freedom of the Press”, etc., that must be imposed on China (what a bizarre idea: “a democracy” that has to be imposed! … but it gets across 200% of the time), and then the “hardcore” faction of the Tibetan government in exile, which is acquiring more and more adherents because of the tough talk of the struggle for independence at all cost. Apparently, these are the ones who have ignited and carried out the recent violence.

BP: Isn’t this an expression of real discontent?

EM: Yes, of course. What I’ve been describing so far is the “outside” instigators of the riots. But it’s obvious that if there weren’t a “suitable situation” on the ground, the instigators couldn’t instigate anything. As I said, the internal reasons are essentially economic, and therefore social. First, we must remember that mass education in Tibet didn’t begin until the 60s, which explains why Tibet is behind the rest of the country. What this means is that the first university students or advanced technicians in Tibet did not start working until the 80s, about 10 years later than the Han Chinese (and 10 years in China is like 100 years for us!). This is a disadvantage that they still have not made up. This disadvantage at the level of training, as well as in the type of work offered to each group, explains why all the “important” positions are held by the Chinese.

Besides this first problem, which is real, difficult to resolve, and the source of “ethnic” conflict, there is also the disadvantage, well recognized in China, of the country folk compared to the inhabitants of the large urban centers. If many Tibetans have benefited from the economic advances China has made, many others have been left behind in economic stagnation. This fact does not just impact Tibet, but effects the whole of China: the inequalities are becoming more and more glaring between the more fortunate (or even those of average fortune) and the more unfortunate. What is without doubt is that very few Chinese living in Tibet are unemployed—if they come to Tibet, it’s because they know there is a job waiting for them, if not they would go elsewhere—, while there are many young Tibetans would are without jobs. In general, they come from the countryside and have only had elementary school educations. They lack qualifications, while the Chinese who come to work in Tibet are qualified technicians, university trained, or experienced administrators, and, of course, merchants. Even if education is facilitated for Tibetans (as it is with other ethnic minorities elsewhere in China), the requirements for gaining an education are lower and the entrance exams less rigorous for the Hans, the Tibetans don’t always see their interests in pursuing a higher education. But bringing the Tibetans to educate themselves would be an interesting way of reducing social inequality, while China “stands by its commitment” to inject billions of Yuan just for the development of the Tibetan economy. What’s more, in Tibetan towns, the free market favors the Han and Muslim Hui who have more experience in trade than the Tibetans. So, here again, the Tibetans feel they have been dealt out of the game by the Han and the Hui.

Just to note that the racial hatred toward the Muslims has for a long time been rooted in and propagated by Tibetan Buddhism (e.g., by the Kalashakra): it is because of the Muslim invasions of northern India in the 10th and 11th centuries that the Tantric masters sought refuge in Tibet. Indian Tantrism came to Tibet and became Tibetan Buddhism, and held on to an age-old rancor for Islam because of their persecution by Muslims.

BP: Didn’t China annex Tibet? Can we deny the existence of a national claim for Tibet, for a “Tibetan nation” distinct from China?

EM: As I said earlier, Tibet was annexed to China by the Mongols, that is, during the period when the Mongols extended their empire into China (13th century). When China regained control of its empire, with the Mings, from the 14th to the 16th centuries, it pretty much lost all interest in that distant Tibetan region and Tibet remained “passively” annexed to China. Then the Manchus took over China and made Tibet a Chinese province. This tactic was repeated by the British and then by the US.

So what is meant by the term “nation”? If you want to talk about a nation historically distinct from China, you have to go back to the Tubo dynasty that ruled Tibet from the 7th to the 9th centuries. It would be like our now claiming to be the empire of Charlemagne! If you want to talk about a specific culture, it seems obvious that Tibet does not have the same culture as China, not just because of the differences in their spoken and written languages, but also because of the differences in their traditions, their religions, their inhabitants, and so on. This had not stopped the many instances of cross-culturing, to the point that I asked myself what would jump off in the way of family dramas and breakups if one day Tibet really became independent and shoved all the Han Chinese out the door, along with all the Muslims (these are the two ethnicities targeted by the government in exile): they would have a helluva problem telling just who was who and who belonged to what ethnicity. In fact, the ethnic analysis is only a way of explaining to the general public why the wars fought among the great powers happened: this was also seen in the Balkans, in Iraq, in the USSR, and it is happening again in Tibet. What flabbergasted me was that public opinion has still not caught on. And what worries me is that the stakes in this conflict have by far surpassed those of the other conflicts: on the one hand, China can not just let itself do whatever, and on the other, the world economy is at risk of serious shock.

BP: Today, can the Tibetans live according to their culture/religion?

EM: Tibetans are for the most part very devout, that can be seen in their daily life: the stone mills turn lightly, we see them kneeling in front of the temples from morning till night, on the highways we regularly encounter pilgrims en route to Lhasa, prayer flags around their necks, the monasteries are packed with monks, even very young children (which is forbidden by Chinese law), bank notes piled up at the feet of the Buddhas, in the distance we can hear the sounds of trumpets and mantras.

Religious practice is far from being repressed. It can only be an expression of bad faith to claim otherwise! Or of never having been to Tibet. In education, bilingualism is required and practiced in every school that we visited (primary, secondary and higher education); institutes of Tibetology were open for those young Tibetans (and others) who wished to deepen their study of Tibetan culture: here we found they gave courses in language, medicine, theology, music and dance, and so on. So I think that it is pure nonsense to say that the culture and the religion are being oppressed or destroyed. Again, it is the information we are fed at home: after shedding some light on the deception as to the ethnic genocide, we were quickly diverted to “cultural genocide”. It is obvious, that if I, as one small individual, were to contradict this notion, no one would believe me, but it is enough to go and see the place for yourself to be convinced.

So what are they talking about when they point a finger at “Chinese repression”? What is banned and severely punished is any attempt at “separatism”, or the division of China. What may seem trivial activities in our countries, like carrying a Tibetan flag in the streets (the flag that was created in 1959, at the time of the exodus, and which is thus of a political color), or distributing leaflets in the street, or passing out photos of the DL (who is a political effigy), or organizing demonstrations, and such. For this sort of activity there are very quick (doubtlessly too quick?) arrests, and sometimes imprisonment. China is quite severe on this matter because they know that the support for the Tibetan independence movement is huge, that this support comes from the West and is aimed at dividing China. As I said, the bone of contention here is not so much the six million Chinese Tibetans up against the Chinese state, but the pitting of China against the West, and it is expressed in the economic problems that exist in today’s Tibet.

BP: What is the nature of Tibetan Buddhism and its structure/clergy?

EM: Okay, so, you’re asking me to rewrite my book! To recap: Tibetan Buddhism came out of Tantrism, one of three great schools or “vehicles” of Buddhism. According to scholars of Buddhism, this vehicle is the farthest removed from the Dharma (or the original teachings of Buddha in the 6th century BC). First of all, because this vehicle is the most recent (6th century AD), so Buddhism had time to go through several changes, and did so largely because of the intellectual difficulties in its teaching. And then, because Tibetan Buddhism had the particularity of exerting a spiritual as well as a temporal power, which is not the case with the two other vehicles of Buddhism.

In fact, Tantrism fled to Tibet in the 10th and 11th centuries because of the historical circumstances I have just told you about (Muslim invasions). At this time, Tibet was totally disorganized on the political and social levels. But the Tantric communities who came north from India were very structured and hierarchical. This is why, when they had moved into Tibet, which badly needed a reorganization, they took control of the region “spontaneously”, by applying their own standards. Tantrism became Tibetan Buddhism from the moment it adapted itself to the local morals, customs and religion (Bön). You could say that at this time, the Buddhist religion was beneficial because it guided Tibet toward a structured feudalism. The problem was that this feudalism, over a millennium, became rigidly set in an extremely repressive and conservative religious power. Tibet was halted in its evolution because of this omniscient and omnipotent religious power. We must not forget that the monasteries owned more than 70% of the land in Tibet, the rest belonging to the families of the nobility. There has never been a theocratic rule as powerful or as rich as the one in Tibet. There was no comparison with what happened in Europe during the Middle Ages where the monasteries were tucked away in a dark corner of the castle grounds. With the arrival of the Peoples Republic of China in 1949, it was much more difficult for the Tibetan clergy to give up this power.

BP: You said that Tibetan Buddhism allowed the imposition of a feudal system. But that was the case with most all religions. Isn’t this all in the past now?

EM: Certainly, that was the case with most religions, as religion has always had one foot in politics, as we say. Tibetan Buddhism permitted a tribal society, as it was before the 9th century, to evolve into a better structured, feudal society. Feudalism is no longer very popular anywhere, and the former Tibetan elite, now in exile, has no intention of returning to the old system. They, too, have modernized and are strong partisans of the “free market” model with a re-installation of the private ownership of land, thus especially outside the Chinese system, and based on the Western model.

PB: How do you explain the very pro-Tibetan feelings in the West, especially in the media?

EM: Public opinion follows the media, and the media obey the economic interests. Don’t we live in an economic dictatorship here at home? Censorship is as real here as it is anywhere, but just better hidden. In the West, you are not locked up in prison for your opinions, but rather in your head, then in the illnesses that ensue. I wonder sometimes which is worse. So your actual question becomes: “How do you explain the pro-Tibetan feelings conveyed by our economic system?” Neither the US nor Europe fully appreciates the dazzling advances made by China on the world stage. All the plans are in place to bring it down: “We have to raise hell during the Peking Olympics!” squeals Danny Cohn-Bendit in his speech before a plenary session of the EU parliament on how Europe must act toward China. And this, not even a week after the events that lit up downtown Lhasa! It is so monstrous, yet that shows in a very simple way that the “big world of diplomacy and high finance” doesn’t have a solution for the Tibetan problem, and what is really important for them is to “raise hell in China.”

How do you get the Western public to swallow this pill, especially without losing the approval of intellectuals? For that you have to call on His Holiness, who with a smile of the “eternal snows” could make a cat back down in front of a mouse. Hasn’t Tibetan Buddhism gussied itself up in its best bib and tucker to charm a West “devoid of spiritual values”? Surfing into our lives on the 70s wave of “getting back to the source”, it was not difficult to pass it off as the Dharma, presented to us as a sort of “spiritual atheism”, a philosophy of life, a way of being, an internal therapy, etc., in short, everything BUT a religion.

But, if we look at it a little more closely, the Buddhism of Buddha is already a religion when it offers transcendence: a place beyond the suffering that results from our physical and temporal limitations. Doesn’t this Beyond, this transcendence, imply having faith? Tibetan Buddhism is still more a religion when it reintroduces dogmas, the most famous of which being reincarnation, and it was exactly this that Buddha, himself, personally, rose up against! Reincarnation was returned to honor by the Tibetan Buddhism of the 14th century, in order to make official the spiritual, temporal, and, especially, material inheritance of a Rinpoché (or head of a monastery) to his successor, by the system of the Tulkous (which is based on a belief in reincarnation). To be the head of a monastery in Tibet at the time of feudalism, was to be a large property owner: land, and the assets on the land, including the serfs, belonged to the monastery. This explains why there were so many assassinations among the Tibetan high clergy and wars between the schools of Tibetan Buddhism.

In short, Buddhism, thanks to its very plastic character, has adapted to the different environments where it has made its home, whether in Tibet or in 20th century Europe … where His Holiness the DL is happy to ladle out democracy, with a soup spoon of Human Rights, and some freedom of expression, all mixed with a pinch of Buddhist tolerance and compassion, and we get a nice smooth dough ready to bake in the media blast furnaces to make a nice cream pie! That Buddhism adapts is a sign of its good health! What is much more unwholesome is a DL who passes Tibetan Buddhism off as a non-religion (a philosophy) of tolerance and compassion stripped of any political implications. That is truly a laugh (even though it may not be a very good joke)!

BP: Can’t we also explain it by the totalitarian and repressive character of the Chinese state?

EM: Obviously, what we here in the West consider first off is the contrast between the “pacifism” of the DL and the “totalitarianism” of China. But it is a somewhat comically stark black and white, don’t you think? It’s just right for persuading kids dressed-up for communion. But how is it that everyone here (even the leftist intellectuals, the progressives, ecologists, health-food wonks, and all that) holds this highly contrasted idea in their heads, of such a sympathetic Tibet and such a horribly repressive China? It is the same question as: How come the whole world drinks Coke and wears Adidas? Advertising, it works and it’s dangerous, everybody knows it and yet they can’t help following it. Especially the sort of advertising on Tibet/China that we’ve been subjected to for 50 years now!

How can we talk about China being “repressive’—okay, maybe in a certain way it is—but explain to me how this could be when China has, proportionately, five times fewer prisoners than the US? We say here that China is “totalitarian”: okay, but to say it still remains communist, is this synonymous with “totalitarianism”? Besides, what bothers us is not so much that China is communist, but that it protects its “economic territory”: neither the US nor the EU do that, and that greatly displeases the multinationals. Foreign investment in China is less than 3%: this is not a great gift for the multinationals!

BP: Is there a geo-strategic dimension to this? What is the role of the Dalai-Lama?

EM: The geo-strategic dimension is at the very heart of the problem, certainly, and has been since the beginning of the 20th century. We must not forget that Europe held many “concessions” in China at the beginning of the 20th century, and that Tibet was, so to speak, under British trusteeship. When the communists took power, it put an end to this semi-colonization. I don’t believe we here in the West have fully accepted that. Since the end of the Second World War, the US has tried to pick up the colonialist torch with the Cold War as its justification. Tibet and the DL became the two main war horses for the US’s assaults to divide China.

BP: The USA has taken China off its list of most repressive states. Hasn’t China become a capitalist country like the others?

EM: If the US does something like that, isn’t it for some strategic purpose? It allows for the organization of more riots in the Tibetan regions, which forces China to bring out its big guns of repression, and the US can then cry foul: “State Repression”. Today, China has what it calls a “mixed economy”, that is, certain aspects of capitalism have been integrated, but socialism still is the structural basis for the Chinese economy. To simplify, we can say that capitalism has developed in China under the control of the Communist Party. According to international economists, the public sector still dominates the Chinese economy, making up more than 60% of it. It may be difficult to understand for those of us who consider it in Aristotelian terms, where “A can never be non-A”. But for the Chinese, it is more like yin-yang: one does not exclude the other: A can be non-A, depending on the conditions. It is what we call a dialectical way of thinking. For example, the authorities noticed that they had let pollution go far too long. Right away, in their five-year plan, they corrected the trend and made a gigantic investment in the environmental and ecological sectors, without calling for the contribution of foreign investors. But using capitalist methods is not an end in itself. We can only hope that it works for them!

* translated from the French by CirqueMinime/Paris

** cf. “A Lie Repeated: The Far Left’s Flawed History of Tibet.”

[SamFisher]

MFW - KingCheetah's last offering has plunged you into severe, crippling face debt.

You are the Bear Stearns of face loss, and there is no Federal Reserve Bank of Face willing to bail you out.

You need to declare face bankruptcy and end this charade, once and for all.

CHAPTER 7

[yeo]

I didn't see pigs fly this morning, but it appears that the Bush II administration is more in touch with reality than the rest of the Western world. Whodda thunk it?! Too bad it has no credibility left with anyone...

Hillary is desperate and grabbing at straws, Obama, on the other hand, is sensing victory and playing the responsible statesman on the issue.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7b1674e4-05f4-11dd-802c-0000779fd2ac,dwp_uuid=9c33700c-4c86-11da-89df-0000779e2340.html?nclick_check=1

Bush to attend Olympic opening ceremony
By Demetri Sevastopulo and Daniel Dombey in Washington

Published: April 9 2008 06:23 | Last updated: April 9 2008 06:23

President George W. Bush will not skip the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games in Beijing to protest the Chinese government crackdown on protestors in Tibet, according to a senior US official.

Ambiguous comments from the White House sparked speculation on Tuesday that Mr Bush might be considering a boycott of the opening ceremony. Asked several times whether the president was considering attending only the sporting events, Dana Perino, White House spokeswoman, replied: “I would not put it that way”.

A senior official later told the Financial Times that Mr Bush was not considering skipping the opening ceremony. He said the president had “made clear in recent discussions with foreign leaders that he is not interested in skipping the opening ceremony”.

The White House has privately criticised European threats to miss the opening event. Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, will not attend the ceremony, while Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, is considering a similar move.

Tibet witnessed its worst bloodshed in two decades in early March as long-standing unrest escalated into violent protests that sparked a Chinese government crackdown. World leaders have called on Beijing to reopen talks with the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, to resolve the tensions.

Senior Democrats, including Hillary Clinton, the New York senator and presidential hopeful, and Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker, have also called on Mr Bush to boycott the opening ceremony to send a message to China about its treatment of the protestors.

“At this time, and in light of recent events, I believe President Bush should not plan on attending the opening ceremonies in Beijing, absent major changes by the Chinese government,” Mrs Clinton said this week.

But the senior official said Mrs Clinton and others failed to understand that a boycott would be seen as a “huge insult to the average Chinese citizen”.

“Support for the Olympics is genuine, not manufactured by the Communist party. Olympic pride is near-universal in China and it would set US-China relations back a long way to make this kind of empty gesture,” the official said.

The comments came as the Olympic torch arrived in San Francisco on Tuesday for the only North American leg of its journey to Beijing.

The Chinese government has railed at protests in Europe along the torch route and is bracing for expected protests in San Francisco on Wednesday. Ms Pelosi, whose district includes San Francisco, said China had turned the torch relay into a “political event” because of its treatment of protestors in Tibet.

Many US diplomats worry that even a partial boycott of the Olympics could jeopardise international cooperation with China, which has improved dramatically in recent years over issues such as North Korea’s nuclear programme, the Burmese junta’s crackdown on protesting monks and even the authorisation of a United Nations force for Darfur.

The fear expressed by many officials and analysts is of a Chinese nationalist backlash to a perceived snub over the Olympics since the event is an issue of national pride that resonates far beyond the cadres of the ruling Communist party.

Throughout Mr Bush’s second term, the US has sought to encourage China to be a responsible “stakeholder” in the international system – a status symbolized by the country’s role as the Olympic host.

“China has behaved more responsibly because of this rhetoric,” Minxin Pei, a China expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said recently. “Whether this rhetoric will pass on to the next administration depends on who’s in the White House.”

[yeo]

Thousands of supporters are already gathering, hours before the start of the relay. No sign of protesters yet.

On related news, at the just concluded IOC meeting in Beijing, all 205 national and regional members of the IOC have committed to attend the Beijing Olympics, making this the largest Olympics in history.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2irapsn.jpg

[yeo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/08/AR2008040802907_pf.html

Let the Games Go On

By Joan Chen
Wednesday, April 9, 2008; A19

I was born in Shanghai in 1961 and grew up during the Cultural Revolution. During my childhood, I saw my family lose our house. My grandfather, who studied medicine in England, committed suicide after he was wrongly accused of being a counterrevolutionary and a foreign spy.

Those were the worst of times.

Since the Cultural Revolution ended in the late 1970s, however, I have witnessed unimaginable progress in China. Changes that few ever thought possible have occurred in a single generation. A communist government that had no ties to the West has evolved into a more open government eager to join the international community.

A state-controlled economy has morphed into a market economy, greatly raising people's standard of living. It's clear that the majority of the Chinese people enjoy much fuller, more abundant lives today than 30 years ago. Though much remains to be done, the Chinese government has made rapid progress in opening up and trying to be part of the international community.

Last month I went to China and spent four weeks visiting Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong and Chengdu. The people I met and spoke with are proud and excited about the Beijing Games. They believe that the Olympics are a wonderful opportunity to showcase modern China to the rest of the world. Like many Americans, most Chinese people are disturbed by the recent events in Tibet. But after watching the scenes of violence and arson by the rioters, the Chinese believe that the government is doing the right thing in cracking down to restore order.

The Olympic torch is in California and is to be carried through San Francisco today. In a resolution criticizing China, Chris Daly, a member of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, said that demonstrating against the torch relay would "provide the people of San Francisco with a lifetime opportunity to help 1.3 billion Chinese people gain more freedom and rights." To his credit, Mayor Gavin Newsom did not sign Daly's resolution.

This statement could not be further from reality. For one thing, the Chinese are a proud people. They want freedom and greater rights, but they know they must fight for them from within. They know that no one can grant them freedom and rights from afar. The stigma of Western imperialism and the Opium Wars also remains a strong reminder of the past, and Chinese people do not want their domestic policies to be dictated by outside powers. They also do not want the United States to boycott the opening ceremonies of the Games. The U.S. boycott of the 1980 Games in Moscow and the Soviet boycott of the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles accomplished nothing. A U.S. boycott of the opening ceremonies in Beijing would be counterproductive for relations between the two countries.

For decades, anti-China human rights groups in Washington have spent millions of dollars denouncing China. To many Chinese, it seems that this lobby is the only voice that's acceptable or newsworthy in the U.S. media and to the U.S. government. But times are changing. We need to be open-minded and farsighted. We need to make more friends than enemies. Remember what a little ping-pong game did for Sino-U.S. relations in the 1970s? Let's celebrate the Olympics for what the Games are meant to be -- a bridge for friendship, not a playground for politics.

The writer is an actress and director. She became a U.S. citizen in 1989.

[SamFisher]

China wants it both ways - to be a great power but to be exempt from great power scrutiny.

If you can't take the heat, exit the kitchen. Leave your paranoia at the door.

[namo]

Live of the torch relay in San Francisco for those interested.

http://www.nbc11.com/torchrelay/index.html?dl=mainclick

[SamFisher]

The Olympic torch relay is a Nazi-invented tradition dating back 1936, invented to promote racial superiority.

No, seriously, it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7330949.stm

Smart move of the Chinese to take a symbol with that kind of history and make it into a nationalist rallying cry around an authoritarian regime. Real smart.

[cshen]

The Olympic torch relay is a Nazi-invented tradition dating back 1936, invented to promote racial superiority.

No, seriously, it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7330949.stm

Smart move of the Chinese to take a symbol with that kind of history and make it into a nationalist rallying cry around an authoritarian regime. Real smart.


White ppl in north american are originally invaders from europe. are you still calling yourselves invaders?

[SamFisher]

White ppl in north american are originally invaders from europe. are you still calling yourselves invaders?
What does this have to do with the history of the Olympic torch relay as a Nazi propaganda device? :confused:

[cshen]

What does this have to do with the history of the Olympic torch relay as a Nazi propaganda device? :confused:

because olympic torch relay isnt a Nazi progaganda devide anymore. know what im saying?

[wnes]

The Olympic torch relay is a Nazi-invented tradition dating back 1936, invented to promote racial superiority.

No, seriously, it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7330949.stm

Smart move of the Chinese to take a symbol with that kind of history and make it into a nationalist rallying cry around an authoritarian regime. Real smart.

Your post would only make sense if the Olympic torch relay were carried out twice in the history of Olympic events, one by Nazi Germany, and one by China.

Freakin' moron.

PS- The Nazi-Dalai Lama connection as well as His Holyass's pursuit to seek racial purity for his Tibetan followers are such a well documented subject (unbeknownst to the vast ignorant hoi polloi in the West notwithstanding) that I wouldn't want to touch on it if I were a die-hard Free Tibeter like you ... lol

[Dubious]

White ppl in north american are originally invaders from europe. are you still calling yourselves invaders?


Yes, absolutely.

White Europeans armed with more knowledge, more powerful weapons and immunity against more diseases were set loose on the sparsely populated, vastly abundant North American continent where they plundered the land and wiped out the native peoples. We imported and enslaved the black people of Africa too. Our forefathers were some ethnocentric assh*les.

In the last half of the 20th and in the 21st centuries we have tried to rectify that by supporting freedom from tyranny around the world, albeit clumsily.

So, now you tell us what's really what with China.

[real_egal]

Your post would only make sense if the Olympic torch relay were carried out twice in the history of Olympic events, one by Nazi Germany, and one by China.

Freakin' moron.

PS- The Nazi-Dalai Lama connection as well as His Holyass's pursuit to seek racial purity for his Tibetan followers are such a well documented subject (unbeknownst to the vast ignorant hoi polloi in the West notwithstanding) that I wouldn't want to touch on it if I were a die-hard Free Tibeter like you ... lol

He's also calling Mohammad Ali a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer for carrying the torch by that logic. But from a racist like him, nothing is surprising.

Since Nazi Germany started the Autobahn, the whole world should ban highways.

[SamFisher]

Your post would only make sense if the Olympic torch relay were carried out twice in the history of Olympic events, one by Nazi Germany, and one by China.


I've yet to see any nation make the Olympic Torch relay into the kind of jingoistic nationalistic rally that the Chinese have this year, at least not since the Cold war years, at the very least. But this probably outpaces even that - I mean Chinese are celebrating their suppression of an indigenous uprising - pretty sick stuff, even if they are brainwashed by Goebbels' Xinhua State News Service.

I only hope nobody dies trying to get the thing to the top of Everest. But I guess a few dead bodies is no big deal for the PRC - they got more to take their places!

[SamFisher]

He's also calling Mohammad Ali a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer for carrying the torch by that logic. But from a racist like him, nothing is surprising.

Since Nazi Germany started the Autobahn, the whole world should ban highways.

Read the posts numbnuts. Torch relays happen all the time. Every few years in fact. TOrch relays used as shows of national dominance, the way China and Nazi Germany use them - are less common.

Nobody said they couldn't have the stupid torch relay - but turning it into a Nationalistic Parade is in poor taste, even for the PRC, which is generally tasteless. The PRC certainly doesn't know sh-t about PR.

[cshen]

Yes, absolutely.

White Europeans armed with more knowledge, more powerful weapons and immunity against more diseases were set loose on the sparsely populated, vastly abundant North American continent where they plundered the land and wiped out the native peoples. We imported and enslaved the black people of Africa too. Our forefathers were some ethnocentric assh*les.

In the last half of the 20th and in the 21st centuries we have tried to rectify that by supporting freedom from tyranny around the world, albeit clumsily.

So, now you tell us what's really what with China.

Hey. my comment about north americans are regarding to his comment about olympic torch relay.

but if you really wanna what's with china. let me tell you.

China has recovered from culture revolution 30 years ago, changing itself froma a chaotic communist nation to a strong economic country. How long does it take US to do that?

[michecon]

hahahaha, Sam is seriously pissed. And Sam knows PR.

LOL.

[SamFisher]

Let me break this down for you PRCy boyz

Hitler gave speeches at Nuremberg parade ground (the famous ones with the banners from the Riefenstahl films) proclaiming how awesome Germany ones.

Does that mean current German Chancellor Angela Merkel can't

1. give speeches? No.
2. Go to Nuremberg? No.
3. Say Germany is awesome? No.

But does it mean that she can go to the Nuremberg parade grounds and give a speech about how awesome Germany is? YES - and if she does, people would say its in poort taste.

You'd think you guys would understand with, what with your obsession with poor taste regarding japanese war shrines or whatever


You're welcome!

[michecon]

You're welcome!

I said you know PR, it's not being sarcastic, and it's a very deep statement. Think about that.

[real_egal]

Let me break this down for you PRCy boyz

Hitler gave speeches at Nuremberg parade ground (the famous ones with the banners from the Riefenstahl films) proclaiming how awesome Germany ones.

Does that mean current German Chancellor Angela Merkel can't

1. give speeches? No.
2. Go to Nuremberg? No.
3. Say Germany is awesome? No.

But does it mean that she can go to the Nuremberg parade grounds and give a speech about how awesome Germany is? YES - and if she does, people would say its in poort taste.

You'd think you guys would understand with, what with your obsession with poor taste regarding japanese war shrines or whatever


You're welcome!

Let me break this down to you, Nazi-loving-racist Herr Hauptmann Fisher.

Paris is NOT Nuremberg parade grounds.
London is NOT Nuremberg parade grounds.
San Francisco is NOT Nuremberg parade grounds.

Unless you are claiming those cities were full of genocide history, so the peace and competition symbol of Olympic torch shouldn't be displayed in those shameful places.

Torch relay is a relay, not a parade. It's an effort to show how China is, yes, and how China is welcoming the world to joining this sport event. It's about participation, sports, and Olympics. Is it about China? Yes, because China is the host country.

When Ali carried the torch, the whole audience were chanting "USA, USA". That was NOT a Nationalistic Parade, but rather a healthy love towards own country and pride of the country. Of course, you can't stop there are Nazi-loving hysterical pretentious hypocrite spitting to such nature human emotion.

PRC isn't good at PR, that's a given. That's not an excuse for biased self-righteous crowd to lie everything about China.

You are NOT welcome.

[langal]

I suppose even the GOP is getting on the bandwagon..

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25863#continueA

Say what you want about the liberals here who condemn China, but I think a pro-war "hawk" who does the same definitely smacks of hypocrisy.

[namo]

"A lot of people complaining about Tibet are actually using it as an opportunity to vent their own racist feelings about Chinese or asians in general."

[SamFisher]

I said you know PR, it's not being sarcastic, and it's a very deep statement. Think about that.
Pero...no soy Boriqueno.

[rfila]

I have decided no more ignore this SamFisher guy. In fact, I start to like him. He has been carefully showing what can go wrong with those anti-China idiots.

I hope one day he will publish a book based on his own experience in this forum. It will be fun to read.

[yeo]

Some running report of developing events. Frontline reports say supporters vastly outnumber protestors and are chasing them around, but no violence so far. CNN live just focused its camera on a sea of supporters with red flags and claimed they were protestors. Typical! :rolleyes:

Olympic torch supporters, protesters gathering in San Francisco
By Jessie Mangaliman, Cecily Burt, Patrick May, Yevgeniy Sverdlik and Julia Prodis Sulek
Bay Area News Group
Article Launched: 04/09/2008 09:07:12 AM PDT


The Olympic torch run this afternoon in San Francisco is expected to draw thousands of supporters and protesters. Both groups are gathering now, with the story expected to develop throughout the day.

10:30 a.m.: At the corner of Third and Embarcadero outside of AT&T park, there were chants of "Go China Go" and Chinese flags from one corner and chants of "Free Tibet Now" and Tibetan flags from the opposite corner. Then the pro-Tibet contingent crossed the street. There was a brief shouting match as both groups headed toward McCovey Cove to position themselves for the opening torch run ceremonies, but after a few minutes, police separated the groups.

Police on ski boats are patrolling the cove and helicopters are flying overhead.

Also flying overhead was a plane pulling a banner for another international cause: Free Burma.


10:25 a.m.: A protester standing on a concrete block at One Embarcadero Center across from the Ferry Building is holding a sign the reads "Stop the killing in Tibet." She is yelling out the same words and "educate yourself," as about 20 people surround her holding Chinese and Olympic flags and yelling back.


10:22 a.m.: At the Caltrain station on Fourth Street about 100 people, some waiving a large People's Republic of China flag, are making their way down to McCovey Cove for the relay's start.

They are chanting "Go China Go" and "Go Olympics" as they make their way through city streets. The group is also carrying a large red banner that reads: Friendship, Solidarity, Fair Play.
About a block from the station, the group ran into a group of Tibetan protesters. Nearly 100 of them gathered on the sidewalk near the cove. Their large sign counters that of the pro-China ralliers. "Don't belive China's Olympic lie," it reads.


10:00 a.m.: At McCovey Cove near AT&T Park, where the relay is set to begin at 1 p.m., torch supporters waving Chinese flags are filling Parking Lot A and lining the route.

Among them is Xiaohui Li, 27, a Santa Barbara software engineeer who along with three friends drove all night attend the relay to show support for the games.

Li said she loves her country, which she left three years ago for school and then work in the United States. Her hometown of Shenyang in northeastern China will be the site of the soccer matches during the games.

Li said she applied to return home to volunteer during the games, but hasn't gotten a response to her request.


9:20 a.m.: Olympic torch protesters began showing up about 7:45 a.m., and are now filling Ferry Park.

Jigdol Ngawang, one of the leaders of SF Team Tibet said "Some of these guys with Chinese flags are waving them in our faces. I've asked the police for assistance. Our struggle for 50 years has been non-violent. Our weapon has always been the truth. We've telling our people to be non-vioent. We can't guarantee our people won't react with vioence when the Chinese come at them."

He said that since Tuesday afternoon, the Team Tibet's phone numbers, which were listed on the groups' Web site, have been jammed with thousands of inappropriate and obscene messages, making the phones useless. "I don't know who are doing it, the Chinese government or individuals."

Thepo Tulku, another member of SF Team Tibet, said China has failed to improve human rights in the country. "We don't want the torch to go through Tibet, we don't believe the torch is a symbol of peace."

Police moved pro-Chinese demonstrators who began gathering around the same time a block away to Justin Herman Plaza, where the closing ceremonies are planned.

Among them is Ping Ng, 37, a Sunnyvale software engineer who took the day off to support the torch. He said he expected about 1,000 other high-tech workers to join him. "We hope it will be peaceful today and everyone enjoys the games and that they will be successful," Ng said. "The Olympics are a bridge of friendship between China and the United States and I feel disgusted when there are violent protests against the games. This is a proud time for China, not a time to protest."


9:10 a.m.: At the Palo Alto Caltrain stop, a train from San Jose to San Francisco was standing room only with people heading up to the torch relay. There were some protesters, but many more appeared to be Chinese Americans supporting the torch run. They were wearing red and some were carrying banners with the Beijing Olympic slogan: "One World, One Dream."


8:45 a.m.: Three bus loads of mostly Chinese Americans headed to San Francisco this morning to perform a time-honored Chinese cultural tradition - Tai Chi.

The group was invited to perform at Justin Herman Plaza as part of the Olympic torch relay event this afternoon.

The fluid quiet exercise is expected to be in sharp contract to the protesters expected to attend the event, some whom are bringing loud speakers with them.

The two groups were already evident from the start of their trip to San Francisco. As the Tai Chi demonstrators climbed onto three buses at the Stanford Shopping Center this morning, two bus loads of protesters, many with with loudspeakers and banners, were gathering nearby.

"We've very quiet," said James Chin, a Tai Chi instructor who helped organize the trip.

He explained that Tai Chi is all about the yin and the yang, the internal and the external, the hard and the soft. Chin said he knows that the protests in Justin Herman Plaza are going to be "hectic," but the Tai Chi performance will be a sharp contrast.

"Essentially we're here to celebrate the torch relay," said Chin, who was born in New York to Chinese parents, but now lives in the Bay Area. He said his purpose is not political and believes the Olympics should be about the athletes. "My purpose is to celebrate our cultural heritage."

[yeo]

CNN live just focused its camera on a sea of supporters with red flags and claimed they were protestors. Typical! :rolleyes:

LOL, a youtube is already available of CNN lying. The background crowd is all Chinese supporters, and the CNN headline says protestors.

CNN caught lying on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIGUXc3b6jU&eurl=http://v.backchina.com/watch.php?video=KIGUXc3b6jU)

[SamFisher]

I have decided no more ignore this SamFisher guy. In fact, I start to like him. He has been carefully showing what can go wrong with those anti-China idiots.

I hope one day he will publish a book based on his own experience in this forum. It will be fun to read.

I will publish a book, but it will only be available in Tibetan and be distributed to children of primary school age.

[SamFisher]

reports say supporters vastly outnumber protestors and are chasing them around, :

hey that's a great metaphor for the Chinese han-ification of Tibet.

[yeo]

:D

Two lonely protestors facing a sea of Chinese supporters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA3vOLQMdM4&watch_response)

[yeo]

I must say everything is going well so far. Lots of shouting, lots of noise, but no violence. Much better job than the stupid French. Go San Francisco!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1-QYiK6UTo&watch_response

[yeo]

Not all the supporters are Chinese. :D

http://pic.backchina.com/2008/03/Img256195243.jpg

[namo]

typical white clowns: "these people don't care about freedom of speech."

[yeo]

Some confrontation and scuffling, but apparently calmed down and separated quickly.

http://upload.top-webhostings.com/users/zt/20080409651sf.jpg

[yuantian]

GO! CHINA! GO!

one thing for sure, we out number them. :D

[yeo]

LOL, apparently some Free-Tibeters who were stupid enough to leave their phone numbers on their websites have been flooded with prank calls, some ordering pizza, some even asking for hookers. :D

To the members of the media:

We are sorry to report that the Chinese have taken all the numbers used as
media contacts here, and are spamming our cell phones so incessantly with
abusive calls that we can no longer receive media calls on our cells. (We
are pursuing this with the phone company and the police, and hope you all
will consider reporting on this unfortunately typical behavior of the pro-
Chinese government crowd.)

If you need a media contact please come to the Ferry Park in the morning and
ask the Tibetan community members for Yolanda (or anyone in the organizer
or media group). We have a strong list of articulate, powerful Tibetan
speakers we are happy to share with you.

[Ottomaton]

LOL, apparently some Free-Tibeters who were stupid enough to leave their phone numbers on their websites have been flooded with prank calls, some ordering pizza, some even asking for hookers. :D

This makes you proud?

[yeo]

GO! CHINA! GO!

one thing for sure, we out number them. :D

Damn right! This is San Francisco! Not ****ing Paris! :D

[yeo]

This makes you proud?

Awww, hurt your feelings? Have a little sense of humour.

[Ottomaton]

Awww, hurt your feelings? Have a little sense of humour.

You didn't hurt my feelings. I'm just a little embarrassed for you.

[yuantian]

You didn't hurt my feelings. I'm just a little embarrassed for you.

you never know. is there any proof? it could well be that they are doing it themselves and just blame it on china. typical. PR tactics. :p

[yeo]

A confrontation. The protestors are definitely badly outnumbered. I feel sorry for them. They picked the wrong city. Should have gone to Paris, where they could prey on crippled girls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKtvJukQBWo&eurl=http://club.backchina.com/main/viewthread.php?tid=652089&extra=page%3D1

[bigtexxx]

Looks like getting the olympics is going to result in China looking terrible in the global press. That's too bad, because I like China

[yeo]

you never know. is there any proof? it could well be that they are doing it themselves and just blame it on china. typical. PR tactics. :p

Or they could really be hungry or horny. :D

[clutch11]

It's time for Bin Laden to make a new TV speech.

[yuantian]

Looks like getting the olympics is going to result in China looking terrible in the global press. That's too bad, because I like China

to be honest, we don't really care anymore. please tell me ONE thing from the press in US that has been positive to china? if we are getting bad mouthed anyways, why da **** do we care about it now? bring it on. for more than a decaded living here, i don't recall a damn single positive news about china. all the good things we've done, no one gives a ****. they only look on the bad side and bitch about it. even with economy, rocket science, art, culture, they always mention the political side of it. so bring it on then. :p

[yeo]

Looks like getting the olympics is going to result in China looking terrible in the global press. That's too bad, because I like China

Better change "global press" to "western press". The West is NOT the world. This Olympic torch run is like a litmus test for China of "who is with us and who is against us". So far, London, Paris, SF, big protests, but in Russia, Greece, Turkey, Kazakstan, big welcomes. Greece had a few outside agitators, but no local protestors. Looking forward, we may see more protests in Australia and India (big concentration of Tibetan exiles), but everywhere else, in a long string of Asian, African, and South American countries, there won't be any big trouble at all. China is always negatively portrayed in the western press anyway, and China doesn't really give a crap. You don't become a great power without stepping on a few toes. The country with THE most negative image in the world in the United States. Enough said.

[namo]

Go torch!!!

[clutch11]

Go Zhonghua. :D

[Winrockets]

...The country with THE most negative image in the world in the United States. Enough said.

What's with the hate for the United States? Just because a few hundred protesters are against the Beijing Olympics doesn't mean it's the United States protesting.

[bnb]

This Olympic torch run is like a litmus test for China of "who is with us and who is against us". .

So I guess given the support today the US is 'with you.'

Cool. I look forward to your pro-US posts.

[yeo]

What's with the hate for the United States? Just because a few hundred protesters are against the Beijing Olympics doesn't mean it's the United States protesting.

No hate at all, I am an American myself and proud of it. And I am proud of San Francisco, even the protestors. Compared with the violence and anarchy in Paris, America is showing what real democracy is like. I was just stating a fact, proven by multiple polls. And like I said, we shouldn't really give a damn.

[yeo]

So I guess given the support today the US is 'with you.'

Cool. I look forward to your pro-US posts.

The Bush administration has actually been quite surprisingly steadfast in its support of the Beijing Olympics. So OK, I will make sure to say a few nice things about GWB in the future. :D

[yuantian]

So I guess given the support today the US is 'with you.'

Cool. I look forward to your pro-US posts.

like i've said many times before, chinese don't don't really have any beef with US at all. we were allies in WWII and we appriciate what yall did. BUT, a few people here are actively looking for trouble with china. i think yall should nuture the good relationship instead finding differences. again, we are cool with americans period. unless yall attack us, we will always work with yall. but all these hating by some people (including government officials) are pissing people off in china.

edit: criticism is fine, but when you are over doing it and doing it for ulterior motives, it aint cool no mo.

[jli]

What's with the hate for the United States? Just because a few hundred protesters are against the Beijing Olympics doesn't mean it's the United States protesting.


Americans are smart and the French are dumb. The biggest loser out of this mess might be BAE as China will cancel the B$ contract to buy airbus after the game and give it to Boeing. So if you can, buy Boeing stock now. Profit from it !

[yuantian]

Americans are smart and the French are dumb. The biggest loser out of this mess might be BAE as China will cancel the B$ contract to buy airbus after the game and give it to Boeing. So if you can, buy Boeing stock now. Profit from it !

ya, **** those european losers.

edit: ok, i'm not having a good day at work. so i'm venting via something else. :D

[MR. MEOWGI]

No hate at all, I am an American myself and proud of it. And I am proud of San Francisco, even the protestors. Compared with the violence and anarchy in Paris, America is showing what real democracy is like. I was just stating a fact, proven by multiple polls. And like I said, we shouldn't really give a damn.

You shouldn't give a damn about China because it isn't your country. If you spazed out freaks love it so much you would have never of left it. But China sucks so you had to come here and we were nice enough to let you in. But now you bad mouth "the west" because China's brainwashing was brutal and you still have to tow the line.

America and true Americans are against China's polices towards Tibet. We despise communists and those who support them. If you do support them, get ready to have your ass thoroughly kicked. It will not be tolerated.

[langal]

like i've said many times before, chinese don't don't really have any beef with US at all. we were allies in WWII and we appriciate what yall did. BUT, a few people here are actively looking for trouble with china. i think yall should nuture the good relationship instead finding differences. again, we are cool with americans period. unless yall attack us, we will always work with yall. but all these hating by some people (including government officials) are pissing people off in china.

I think part of the problem is the Americans have no concept of Chinese history. Nor do they care for the most part.

If they did, they mightat the very least, understand the concept of Chinese nationalism and an orderly society.

I definitely don't condone everything the PRC does, but given China's near-annihilation by the Western powers and the Taiping rebellion one might at least see the reasons for national pride and more authoritarian society.

Imagine if the population of the US was quadrupled. I thinks laws and society would definitely be different.

[yuantian]

You shouldn't give a damn about China because it isn't your country. If you spazed out freaks love it so much you would have never of left it. But China sucks so you had to come here and we were nice enough to let you in. But now you bad mouth "the west" because China's brainwashing was brutal and you still have to tow the line.

America and true Americans are against China's polices towards Tibet. We despise communists and those who support them. If you do support them, get ready to have your ass throughly kicked. It will not be tolerated.

you are basically contradicting yourself. if as you claimed that US is all about freedom of everything, then you should allow communism. people here have the rights to beleive whatever they believe in. if you want to ban communism, then don't claim you have freedom of whatever.

i don't believe communism at all, but it doesn't mean that you can't let some one else who wants to believe it.

[langal]

You shouldn't give a damn about China because it isn't your country. If you spazed out freaks love it so much you would have never of left it. But China sucks so you had to come here and we were nice enough to let you in. But now you bad mouth "the west" because China's brainwashing was brutal and you still have to tow the line.

America and true Americans are against China's polices towards Tibet. We despise communists and those who support them. If you do support them, get ready to have your ass throughly kicked. It will not be tolerated.

LOL

so i was born here but because i disagree with you i should leave?

I know you're white and thus more "American" than me but can i still visit from time to time?

[clutch11]

Once Chinese, Always Chinese. :D
Even the future president of US could be a Chinese.

[langal]

you are basically contradicting yourself. if as you claimed that US is all about freedom of everything, then you should allow communism. people here have the rights to beleive whatever they believe in. if you want to ban communism, then don't claim you have freedom of whatever.


you just don't get it. you can stay in America if you are a Communist.

however if yer not white and a Communist, then GTFO!!!

[michecon]

I　love bigotry. :D

[yeo]

You shouldn't give a damn about China because it isn't your country. If you spazed out freaks love it so much you would have never of left it. But China sucks so you had to come here and we were nice enough to let you in. But now you bad mouth "the west" because China's brainwashing was brutal and you still have to tow the line.

America and true Americans are against China's polices towards Tibet. We despise communists and those who support them. If you do support them, get ready to have your ass thoroughly kicked. It will not be tolerated.

Well, China is my country, as well as America. I am a first-gen immigrant. And the reason I am staying in America is simple, I am making more money here. And I see no problem with my loyalty to China as well as allegiance to the US. If the Jews can support Isreal, why cann't we support China?

As for your second paragraph, it's too idiotic for comment. What are ya, twelve?

[langal]

Well, China is my country, as well as America. I am a first-gen immigrant. And the reason I am staying in America is simple, I am making more money here. And I see no problem with my loyalty to China as well as allegiance to the US. If the Jews can support Isreal, why cann't we support China?

As for your second paragraph, it's too idiotic for comment. What are ya, twelve?

I wouldn't bring up Jews.

Lots of bigots hate them more than they hate us.

[jli]

LOL

so i was born here but because i disagree with you i should leave?

I know you're white and thus more "American" than me but can i still visit from time to time?


I think samfish is British. But MR. MEOWGI is definitely a white American because he fits the profile of a redneck.

[longhornchampno]

You shouldn't give a damn about China because it isn't your country. If you spazed out freaks love it so much you would have never of left it. But China sucks so you had to come here and we were nice enough to let you in. But now you bad mouth "the west" because China's brainwashing was brutal and you still have to tow the line.

America and true Americans are against China's polices towards Tibet. We despise communists and those who support them. If you do support them, get ready to have your ass thoroughly kicked. It will not be tolerated.

If anyone doesn't agree with you in a political issue then he is brainwashed and has to leave. Your view is facist and totalitarian. You have no concept of democracy and freedom. And I am waiting for SamFisher to link you to the Nazi.

[MR. MEOWGI]

LOL

so i was born here but because i disagree with you i should leave?

I know you're white and thus more "American" than me but can i still visit from time to time?

If I was in charge, no way. But the liberals would cry that their commie brethren couldn't come in.

[MR. MEOWGI]

If anyone doesn't agree with you in a political issue then he is brainwashed and has to leave. Your view is facist and totalitarian. You have no concept of democracy and freedom. And I am waiting for SamFisher to link you to the Nazi.

We kick both NAZI and COMMIE ass. They are both equally evil.

[langal]

I think samfish is British. But MR. MEOWGI is definitely a white American because he fits the profile of a redneck.

i don't really have too much of a beef with SamFisher. he's been here a long time and i think he's more anti-PRC than anything else.

[clutch11]

We kick both NAZI and COMMIE ass. They are both equally evil.

But were defeated by Chinese in both Korea and Vietnam. :D

[langal]

If I was in charge, no way. But the liberals would cry that their commie brethren couldn't come in.

i'm a registered GOP here in cali. heck i saw Reagan's casket. nice try though.

[rfila]

I think samfish is British. But MR. MEOWGI is definitely a white American because he fits the profile of a redneck.
I doubt it. I was wondering if this MR. MEOWGI is "Tnese". He doesn't fit in any category of American based on my own experience in this country. His problem with China is not his brain, but his hate deep inside of his heart for whatever reason.

[MFW]

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/MyWebFilms/Drama/WizardScarCrowClose.jpg

A KingCheetah self portrait.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/rt_redneck3_070709_ssh.jpg

MFW - KingCheetah's last offering has plunged you into severe, crippling face debt.

You are the Bear Stearns of face loss, and there is no Federal Reserve Bank of Face willing to bail you out.

You need to declare face bankruptcy and end this charade, once and for all.

CHAPTER 7

It's kinda hilarious, it's always the idiots that declare self victory.

Here is SamFisher for ya:

http://www.fanforhire.com/images/comical_ali.jpg

The Olympic torch relay is a Nazi-invented tradition dating back 1936, invented to promote racial superiority.

No, seriously, it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7330949.stm

Smart move of the Chinese to take a symbol with that kind of history and make it into a nationalist rallying cry around an authoritarian regime. Real smart.

Why bother with obscure Nazi references when you can have proven ones?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_IohMUWaY

National Geographic series, now banned at the behest of the "Free" Tibet lobbyist groups.

[Dubious]

Hey. my comment about north americans are regarding to his comment about olympic torch relay.
but if you really wanna what's with china. let me tell you.
China has recovered from culture revolution 30 years ago, changing itself froma a chaotic communist nation to a strong economic country. How long does it take US to do that?


Well, not 3,000 years. Maybe 150 years..1750-1900.

Man, I hope you don't get in any trouble for your bold criticism though, you really examined China's dirty laundry there. Very introspective.

[yuantian]

Well, not 3,000 years. Maybe 150 years..1750-1900.

Man, I hope you don't get in any trouble for your bold criticism though, you really examined China's dirty laundry there. Very introspective.

oh? so you are saying, yall went from being primitive in 1750 to modern in 1900? :D i guess we like it early and enjoy the ride.

[yeo]

Damn this guy has some great insights. Too bad people like him are few and far between in the west.

[Interview with the renowned German best-seller author, documentary film producer and Asia specialist Frank Sieren, who's been living in China for nearly one and a half decades.]

The West has ceased to impress China a long time ago.

April 4, 2008.

[translated by Wild Goose Journal from German into English]

Q: Is Tibet becoming a turning point for Chinas development?
A: It's not a turning point, but simply a tragedy. It seems that most
of the individuals involved have lost sight of the concerns of the
Tibetan people. We may debate about their degrees of involvement in
this disaster, but we should name them first: The government in
Beijing with its relentless, excessive policy of assimilation; then
the Dalai Lama as the head of an exile government, who time and again
tries to politicize his meetings with Western politicians, thus to
suggest latitude which doesn't really exist when it comes to the
crunch.

Q: But there are also other players...
A: If you are talking about the young rioters - they remind me rather
of their contemporaries in the burning suburbs of Paris than of
the demonstrators in Tiananmen Square in 1989. With their senseless
violence against Chinese retailers they have created tailwind for the
hardliners in Beijing and brought the majority of the Chinese totally
against themselves. On the issue of Tibet, the position of the Chinese
leadership coincides with that of the large popular majority. We in
the West tend to sweep this fact under the carpet.

Q: How do you assess the position of the German government?
A: Chancellor Merkel, who's taken the risk of provoking the Chinese
leadership with her reception of the Dalai Lama, in order to score
political points domestically with a romantic sentiment towards Tibet
that has never existed in Tibet itself, has sent careless signals to
the Tibet movement, promising far more than she can hold. Now she's
burnt her fingers, Merkel won't be receiving the Dalai Lama again. In
this crowd of egomaniacs, we also shouldn't forget the great number of
Western journalists, blended by their own self-overestimation, with
their sometimes manipulative, agitating reports.

Q: Wasn't the rebellion in the oppressed Tibet just due?
A: The question must be, was it useful? Anyone who knows even a little
about the Chinese leadership would come to the conclusion that there's
never been the slightest chance for a rebellion to turn things to the
better. The result is shocking and it was foreseeable. Tibet's
latitude was never narrower than today, and it will stay this way for
the foreseeable time. And the threat of boycotting the Olympics
doesn't help, neither. The reformers within the leadership who propose
a more liberal handling of Tibet cannot score points; the hardliners
who claim the West is using Tibet to destabilize China see themselves
in upwind. The more wildly the West gesticulate, the narrower the
latitude for the reformers. We tend to forget that the greatest
changes in the Middle Kingdom have always come from within.

Q: When people in the West talk about China, there's always either
great euphoria or total aversion. Why such extremes?
A: Because there's an epochal change taking place. Ever since the
discovery of America by Columbus the West has dominated. Wherever
the conquerors went, they were able to force the people to play by
their rules. Now, that's no longer tenable. Nations like China are
going their own and very successful way. Many in the West are
fascinated by that dynamics, by the modernity, by how fast those
people are able to leave poverty behind them.

Q: And how is the aversion to explain?
A: At about the end of the nineties the fear came along - the worry of
having to share, the worry that our financial margins would decrease;
that resources would become more and more expensive, and our values
would loose importance; that more and more jobs would drift to China
or Asia and our social standards would no longer sustainable.

Q: Aren't those fears justified?
A: They would be if you believe because of our own natural supremacy
we don't have to do anything. We have to consider what we can still
manufacture in the West and what we no longer can; which of our values
are convincing, which not. What's new is that we can no more simply
command when it comes to the question of what we consider good and
right, instead we have to persuade and compromise. We have to
reposition our way of thinking. That's difficult and it will take a
few generations.

Q: And what if that doesn't succeed?
A: Then we will fare similarly as the nobility of the nineteenth
century. It succumbed to the deceptive belief that the uprising of the
new class were a win-win development. But their exclusive position
could not hold. In hindsight we see it as a natural development. More
and more people were able to participate in decision-making and
advance. What happened then on the level of national states are now
taking place on a global level. And because we are affected ourselves,
our imagination isn't reaching far enough. Future generations,
likewise, will see the relativization of the West as normal and
desirable.

Q: Are we doomed to fall?
A: No. My only concern is that due to our arrogance and self-assurance
we wouldn't take on this issue. It's strange - watching from afar, the
Germans don't appear to be self-doubting, but rather tend to consider
themselves the center of the world's civilization.

Q: Do the Chinese see us that way?
A: The young outgoing Chinese for instance are amazed that we have a
democracy that is thwarting itself - one that hardly allows progress
because it's stuck in the unbelievably complex process of finding
compromises.

Q: Does it mean authoritative regimes like the Chinese one are better
equipped for today's challenges?
A: It simply means that there are badly functioning democracies and
well functioning dictatorships. Even though we don't like it, China is
by far the most successful development project in the latest history
of the world, and it isn't surpassing its peak for a long time yet.
Never before has so many people wrest themselves from poverty.

Q: How do you explain this ascent?
A: To put it blatantly, there are three methods to gain power in the
world: merchandises, arms and values. Value is a jurisdiction for the
Pope or the Islam. The traditional method is the force of arms - war.
However, since the fifties of the twentieth century, that has become
less and less promising - what an incredible advancement! The Korean
War was a turning point - it ended with a stalemate. Almost all wars
raised by the Americans after that either failed or ended without a
clear victory. Slowly it shows that in an era of globalization,
cleverly built trade relationships promise more political influence
than military actions. That's what the Chinese have specialized on -
partly due to weakness, because their army is antiquated, and partly
due to cleverness, because they are traditionally good merchants. They
don't conquer, but create dependencies - containers don't come across
as threatening.

Q: How does it work?
A: They have developed two methods. One I'd like to call the
"concubine economics". Because with their combination of size, price
and logistical agility, they offer the best manufacturing conditions
worldwide for things ranging from bathing shoes to airplanes, they can
afford to pick whom they want to work with. Western businesses have to
court their Chinese partners like the concubines once did their
emperor. The concubine economics brings China the world's highest
foreign investment of more than 60 billion US dollars each year and
the highest trade surplus of nearly 300 billion. The second method is
the "Mother Courage economics". The Chinese help mismanaged
countries, like those in Africa, by building their infrastructures
cheap and fast and then running them, in order to receive long-term
resource contracts in return. If the customer is satisfied - which
usually is the case - long-term political alliances emerge across
continents, shifting the global structures in favor of the developing
countries.

Q: Do you have an example?
A: Take Nigeria. The Chinese say, you have a railway built by the
British and out of maintenance for a hundred years. We'll invest 8
billion US dollars in those tracks. We don't do it out of
selflessness, for we want to buy your minerals and we'll have to
transport them. You can decide for yourselves whether half of the
workers will be locals or only a third. If you insist on half, it will
take twice as long.

Q: You have written that the Chinese are dictators towards the inside
and democrats towards the outside. What do you mean by that?
A: What they want towards the inside is - partly out of conviction
that this were crucial for China's stability, partly for the sake of
power preservation - that democracy be introduced as late as possible.
Towards the outside, the Chinese leadership is already saying, we
represent 1.3 billion people, and we advocate a new world order in
which the original principle by the Europeans apply: "one man, one
vote". In this sense they are the advocates of the largest
co-determination movement in the human history.

Q: How can the Chinese people itself gain influence?
A: Through an unwritten contract with their leadership. If it fails to
improve people's lives, the contract will be cancelled and people will
take it to the street: 10, 20 or 100 million of them. That would be
something different than a rebellion in Tibet, which altogether is of
no importance to China. The fear of such an eruption forces the
leadership to exert itself. It's a mistake to think dictators wouldn't
be under any pressure.

Q: So, are you talking about the breaking point where the China
project could fail?
A: The big question is whether China manages to develop an economic
system that doesn't consume as much resources as it's happening with
us. The Chinese are standing in front of the challenge which even the
West was unable or unwilling to solve. And we should do whatever we
can to help, instead of pointing fingers at China, for a Chinese
environmental disaster would affect all of us. Also crucial would be
the question whether they manage to gradually allow more participation
in decision-making, because in the end that has to be there. However,
it would be certainly unwise to introduce a democracy to the Western
standard.

Q: Why?
A: Because you can only campaign on the same level as the voters, so a
whole bunch of little Maos would be running. A large portion of the
rural population is very traditional. There would speeches to make our
hair stand on end, and then I'd like to read the Western media reports
on that.

Q: In other words, many Chinese are not yet ready for a democracy?
A: The difficult task is to find the right moment for the introduction
of democracy.

Q: How do the young generations see it?
A: The young Chinese have an almost post-modern relationship to
politics, like many young people in Germany. They say, what do I care
about this circus, I'm the captain of my own life and that's that.

Interviewer: Marcus Engler

[Dubious]

oh? so you are saying, yall went from being primitive in 1750 to modern in 1900? :D i guess we like it early and enjoy the ride.


The US (not me or we) went from a rural backwater to a world economic power in that period. But the again the advatnages of having a an ambitious pioneering, capitalistic people set loose on an abundant, sparley inhabited continent, allied with the current world super power after 1815, is unprecedented in world history.

Granted it's much harder to transition a mature, over-populated fuedal society in to a modern economic power....but it still doesn't mean it has to be done under an autocratic system in the 21st century. The people should have input on the course of their lives.

I'm not even sure it's a worthwhile goal. Sewing elastic in underwer for 10 hours a day so you can live in a 500 square foot apartment probably isn't a better life than living in the familial heirachy of a rural agrarian economy.

Modernization can be de-humanizing.

[yuantian]

The US (not me or we) went from a rural backwater to a world economic power in that period. But the again the advatnages of having a an ambitious pioneering, capitalistic people set loose on an abundant, sparley inhabited continent, allied with the current world super power after 1815, is unprecedented in world history.

Granted it's much harder to transition a mature, over-populated fuedal society in to a modern economic power....but it still doesn't mean it has to be done under an autocratic system in the 21st century. The people should have input on the course of their lives.

I'm not even sure it's a worthwhile goal. Sewing elastic in underwer for 10 hours a day so you can live in a 500 square foot apartment probably isn't a better life than living in the familial heirachy of a rural agrarian economy.

Modernization can be de-humanizing.

no, you guys had all the connection from europe. it aint like yall started from scratch. you are basically discounting i don't know how many years. makes me wonder how some people think around here.

[bdk]

The interesting part about the effectiveness of Chinese state brainwashing is how remarkably consistent it is and how passionately its proponents believe it - i guess it is difficult to repudiate your whole reality after you have fled your home country and are in a strange land.

Tell me why you think other people were brainwashed. Just because they have different opinion with you. Take one step back, think about it again, are you 100% sure the information you got is truth? What about both sides need to listen to voice from the other side? Maybe you only see one side of a wall. Given the fact is there is no tight restriction of information access as you thought in China. At least, every person can read CNN BBC's website without any obstacle. Try to spend sometime for your vacation in China, you will see a different world that CNN told you. If you just don't have time or interest to do this, just want to blame a country thousands of mile away from you and you have never been in, at least you can visit the website www.anti-cnn.com. Start to discover another side of the wall.

[zazahan]

These videos might have already been posted. Just in case some of you haven't seen them.

Tibet: Australian tourist Michael Smith filmed riot.
and provided most of the segments to ABC News in Australia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GEW2tXV4Vw

Tibet Diary：Tibet in Two Americans' Eyes
(Won 2004 AURORA AWARDS)
http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/12/tibet-diarytibet-in-two-americans-eyes.html

A story on the event from the Economist, whose correspondent happened to be in Lhasa.
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875823

From another Canadian tourist's blog describing what he saw:
http://kadfly.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-from-lhasa.html

Another video on the event (warning: violence)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZLzKBvvGMg

A video clip on Tibet history made by a Hollywood company.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY

A little history of Tibet by Michael Parenti, a Ph.D. in political science from Yale University.
http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html#019

A book on Dalai Lama by a German writer, translated into English.
http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/SDLE/

Of course, there are more videos on youtube.

It never harms to take some time reading and watching.

[SamFisher]

Tell me why you think other people were brainwashed. Just because they have different opinion with you. Take one step back, think about it again, are you 100% sure the information you got is truth? What about both sides need to listen to voice from the other side? Maybe you only see one side of a wall. Given the fact is there is no tight restriction of information access as you thought in China. At least, every person can read CNN BBC's website without any obstacle. Try to spend sometime for your vacation in China, you will see a different world that CNN told you. If you just don't have time or interest to do this, just want to blame a country thousands of mile away from you and you have never been in, at least you can visit the website www.anti-cnn.com. Start to discover another side of the wall.

^ lol, I have never been to China? Sorry but I've got a passport and a couple of visas that indicate otherwise. Interestingly last time I was there I tried watching CNN - somehow I couldnt figure out what channel it was on...

Nice to hear you voicing the same sentiments, in the same terms, as the rest of the PRCbots. You are a model citizen.

[Ottomaton]

At least, every person can read CNN BBC's website without any obstacle.

What is CNN BBC? I guess I missed that mega-merger.

BTW, both CNN and BBC were blocked by 'The Golden Shield' (until very recently, at least). I can't confirm that that hasn't changed in the last 6 months, but it was true until recently.

Edit:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7312240.stm

BBC was unblocked around 2 weeks ago. I'm sure in that period, after years of being prevented the free flow of information, the Chinese people have been able to develop a well rounded view of information outside what the government wants to feed them. :rolleyes: And they still use keyword filtering. Search BBC for a story on Tibet and you get a 404 message.

Further edit - This is in english only. Try and access the Chinese language version at http://news.bbc.co.uk/chinese/simp/hi/default.stm and you will be shut out.

[bdk]

^ lol, I have never been to China? Sorry but I've got a passport and a couple of visas that indicate otherwise. Interestingly last time I was there I tried watching CNN - somehow I couldnt figure out what channel it was on...

Nice to hear you voicing the same sentiments, in the same terms, as the rest of the PRCbots. You are a model citizen.

I'm not sure you have seen "website" I mentioned in previous post. Unless www.cnn.com is totally a different meida group. And you may also try to click on a few links in other posts. Read more from different kind of channel, then think independently. At least, it doesn't harm.

[bdk]

What is CNN BBC? I guess I missed that mega-merger.

BTW, both CNN and BBC were blocked by 'The Golden Shield' (until very recently, at least). I can't confirm that that hasn't changed in the last 6 months, but it was true until recently.

One minute ago, just browse http://edition.cnn.com/, from China. One image on its home page http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/04/10/torch.relay/t1home.sanfrancisco.afp.gi.jpg.

One facts, we read news from domestic media, cnn, and many other media like blog, youtube. Maybe you can also have a try, never watch this world from the same angle.

[Ottomaton]

One facts, we read news from domestic media, cnn, and many other media like blog, youtube. Maybe you can also have a try, never watch this world from the same angle.

I've been reading (and laughing at) news from Xinhua since I first got on the internet. It is very clearly sanitized heavily to remove even the hint of a reference to anything negative at all about the CPC. Tell me, can you visit:

www.amnesty.org
www.hrw.org
www.tibet.com
or
www.chinatimes.com.tw
?

[deepblue]

^ lol, I have never been to China? Sorry but I've got a passport and a couple of visas that indicate otherwise. Interestingly last time I was there I tried watching CNN - somehow I couldnt figure out what channel it was on...

Nice to hear you voicing the same sentiments, in the same terms, as the rest of the PRCbots. You are a model citizen.

Dude, I travel to China every year, I have been able to watch CNN, BBC each time. I would suggest next time you check into a hotel room with cable.

[bdk]

I've been reading (and laughing at) news from Xinhua since I first got on the internet. It is very clearly sanitized heavily to remove even the hint of a reference to anything negative at all about the CPC. Tell me, can you visit:

www.amnesty.org
www.hrw.org
www.tibet.com
or
www.chinatimes.com.tw
?

Heard about some of them, just tried again. Can access the first three, but failed with the last one. Believe me, if we want, we definitely can get it. One general rule is every org or person has its own interest, sometime, may not be their original purpose, they will show the better side to you. What you need to do is go to the other side. 15 years ago, I believe when most Chinese people first time get message from western website, everyone just want to jump and shout "I got the truth now". But 15 years passed, we had more chances to read those "truth", finally found the "truth" is just part of truth.


Some text copied from tibet.com
=============================================
Tibet situation update and please check www.tibet.net

His Holiness appeals to the International Community

Kashag welcomes Chinese Lawyers' legal help to Tibetans

Chinese "demonstrations" at OoT, UK Parliament never happened

Declaration by the EU Presidency on the situation in Tibet

Latest update on Tibet protests

His Holiness reiterates firm commitment to the Middle-Way Policy

Chinese immigrant influx in Tibet is a serious threat: British MP
=============================================

Some text copied from hrw.com
=============================================
China: Leaders Should Not Attend Olympics Without Rights Improvements

Leverage Beijing’s Desire for Recognition into Durable Rights Change

World leaders should defer accepting invitations to the 2008 Summer Olympic Games in Beijing until the Chinese government makes key human rights improvements, Human Rights Watch said in an open letter today.
=============================================

[Ottomaton]

Heard about some of them, just tried again. Can access the first three, but failed with the last one.

Well that is a step in a positive direction then. 6 months ago every one of the websites discussed was totally blocked.

If the day ever comes that China eliminates the Propaganda Ministry censorship of CCTV, shuts down the Golden Shield, stops arresting dissidents, and ends 'political reeducation' I will have many more positive things to say about the government.

[yeo]

Dave Ross's comments on Tibet on CBS radio

CBS Radio: What the Olympic Protests are Really About? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zam6Ffanss&eurl=http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/posts/3797998.shtml)

[SamFisher]

Dude, I travel to China every year, I have been able to watch CNN, BBC each time. I would suggest next time you check into a hotel room with cable.

Dude -You must have been there when it's not blocked (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-33,RNWE:en&q=China+CNN+BBC+blocked) - and staying in the few places where it was available. I'm not worried about MY access to unbiased news, however - most chinese aren't staying in expensive hotels where it is available - hence the braincleaning.

I know I couldn't get to CNN or BBC .com in 2005. For months.

[wnes]

Well that is a step in a positive direction then. 6 months ago every one of the websites discussed was totally blocked.

If the day ever comes that China eliminates the Propaganda Ministry censorship of CCTV, shuts down the Golden Shield, stops arresting dissidents, and ends 'political reeducation' I will have many more positive things to say about the government.

Free access to information is overrated if one only subjects oneself to conglomerate-controlled media produced distorted, biased, and one-sided news reports. The proof is in the pudding on the subjects of Tibet, Tibet culture, Dalai and his clans.

[SamFisher]

Free access to information is overrated if one only subjects oneself to conglomerate-controlled media produced distorted, biased, and one-sided news reports. The proof is in the pudding on the subjects of Tibet, Tibet culture, Dalai and his clans.
The proof is in the congee when PRCbots cite XInhua as absolute gospel.

[Ottomaton]

Free access to information is overrated if one only subjects oneself to conglomerate-controlled media produced distorted, biased, and one-sided news reports. The proof is in the pudding on the subjects of Tibet, Tibet culture, Dalai and his clans.

:rolleyes:

You, I will never sease to be critical of. I only need to decide whether it would be more appropriate to call you Trader_wnes or bigwnesss. You are so taken with your own ideological jingoistic propaganda that the idea of objective reality is a strange and distand fairy land for you.

[rocketsjudoka]

Free access to information is overrated if one only subjects oneself to conglomerate-controlled media produced distorted, biased, and one-sided news reports. The proof is in the pudding on the subjects of Tibet, Tibet culture, Dalai and his clans.

It sounds like you are saying that you are for government controlled media as long as it supports your point of view. You are saying you don't believe other media sources since they are biased so you will only accept sources that back your own bias.

Why not support free access to information across the board and sample from a lot of media sources?

[wnes]

The proof is in the congee when PRCbots cite XInhua as absolute gospel.

Too bad Sammy, Xinhua is hardly, if ever, my source of information. If you want to know my reading list of Tibet, I'll be glad to provide.

[wnes]

It sounds like you are saying that you are for government controlled media as long as it supports your point of view. You are saying you don't believe other media sources since they are biased so you will only accept sources that back your own bias.

Why not support free access to information across the board and sample from a lot of media sources?

No, I am saying for the ignorant mass in West, the net effect of free access to media is next to nil.

[MadMax]

China does no wrong. Disagree and you're ignorant. Because China does no wrong.

[wnes]

China does no wrong. Disagree and you're ignorant. Because China does no wrong.

Does Jesus teach you strawman's argument?

I seriously doubt it. I have too much respect for Jesus.

[rocketsjudoka]

I think part of the problem is the Americans have no concept of Chinese history. Nor do they care for the most part.

If they did, they mightat the very least, understand the concept of Chinese nationalism and an orderly society.

I definitely don't condone everything the PRC does, but given China's near-annihilation by the Western powers and the Taiping rebellion one might at least see the reasons for national pride and more authoritarian society.

Imagine if the population of the US was quadrupled. I thinks laws and society would definitely be different.

I'm skimming this thread at random since it is chalk full of garbage, by all sides, but this thread caught my attention.

I totally agree that most Americans have little understanding of Chinese history and why the Chinese might think the way they do. While Chinese history is important I think there is a big danger of getting trapped though into history. Into the perception that since China was once carved up by foreign powers that such a thing is likely to happen again and that the rest of the world is against the Chinese. The PRC is a huge economic power and given the interdependence of the World economy it is extremely remote that any major country or coalition will attack the PRC and vice versa.

No one is going to war with the PRC anytime soon.

For instance in past few years there have been massive protests against the US in Europe and Australia yet none of those countries are going to tgo to war against the US. We are too interdependent of a World for things like that to happen.

My own view is that PRC is at a crossroads in regard to it becoming a great modern country and it can go a few different ways. If the PRC continues to try to maintain centralized control it will hamper its development. This is something they intrinsically know as they've already taken many of the reigns on the economy. At the same time a stubborn and belligerant stance towards the rest of world isn't going to be good for it either. While yes the PRC is winning friends with economic might and soft power that has its limits and sooner or later its going to have to acknowledge world opinion.

To head off the inevitable "Well the US has lots of problems." Yes the US does and the US is far from perfect which is why you see many Americans criticizing our own leadership in regard to things like thumbing its nose at World opinion. One of the biggest complaints regarding the GW Bush Admin. is that it has greatly diminished goodwill towards the US.

Successful countries are not static and evolve and that goes for the US as much as the PRC. The problem I see with the PRC and many of its supporters is rather than acknowledge the need to change is to retrench in the face of criticism and to fall back to nationalistic fears of splittests.

Bringing this back to the topic at hand part of why this issue concerns me isn't that I want to see the PRC brought down but that I think it will be a good thing to take up the Dalai Lama on his offer and negotiate with him. It will be a great move to show to the rest of the world, especially the US and Europe, that a great power is magnanimous enough to peacefully negotiate with an opponent. The PRC could set the standard for resolving ethnic conflict but at the moment seems more interested in falling back upon older tactics.

[rocketsjudoka]

No, I am saying for the ignorant mass in West, the net effect of free access to media is next to nil.

So your solution is to call for more government control?

I won't deny that CNN or other western news services have a bias. All news services do. Rather than saying I will counter your bias by just listening to my own why not instead look at a broad range or news services.

[MadMax]

Does Jesus teach you strawman's argument?

I seriously doubt it. I have too much respect for Jesus.

Jesus called out nationalism, as did his earliest followers. He calls out pretense. He calls out human suffering. He calls for human dignity and respect. He doesn't defend the ruling class for the sake of doing so.

You can call it a strawman...but it seems you are NEVER critical of the Chinese government's stance on anything.

[deepblue]

Dude -You must have been there when it's not blocked (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-33,RNWE:en&q=China+CNN+BBC+blocked) - and staying in the few places where it was available. I'm not worried about MY access to unbiased news, however - most chinese aren't staying in expensive hotels where it is available - hence the braincleaning.

I know I couldn't get to CNN or BBC .com in 2005. For months.

I clearly remember watching BBC in 2006 in Shanghai, because all they talked about was Wayne Rooney's broken foot.

Plus, CNN/BBC are not the only sources for Chinese to get information from outside. I have quite a few friends and business contacts in China, most of them are well informed on what's going on outside of official state media. The people who can actually can comprehend English well enough to watch CNN/BBC probably have enough other sources of information.

[bdk]

Dude -You must have been there when it's not blocked (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-33,RNWE:en&q=China+CNN+BBC+blocked) - and staying in the few places where it was available. I'm not worried about MY access to unbiased news, however - most chinese aren't staying in expensive hotels where it is available - hence the braincleaning.

I know I couldn't get to CNN or BBC .com in 2005. For months.

See, you already defined unbiased, what broadcasted by CNN and BBC is unbiased. Try to think freely, what happened if it is also biased, from another way? Unless you open your mindset, you are as same as those people you laughed at one minute ago, both of you only listened to mono channel.

[SamFisher]

I clearly remember watching BBC in 2006 in Shanghai, because all they talked about was Wayne Rooney's broken foot.

Plus, CNN/BBC are not the only sources for Chinese to get information from outside. I have quite a few friends and business contacts in China, most of them are well informed on what's going on outside of official state media. The people who can actually can comprehend English well enough to watch CNN/BBC probably have enough other sources of information.

Comprehend english well enough? I'm sure BBC and CNN would jump at providing a Chinese language version - in fact BBC world service does do a mandarin and cantonese version and has for a long time - which is blocked whenver anything but "China is awesome!" is aired.

[michecon]

Yes the US does and the US is far from perfect which is why you see many Americans criticizing our own leadership in regard to things like thumbing its nose at World opinion. One of the biggest complaints regarding the GW Bush Admin. is that it has greatly diminished goodwill towards the US.

The Chinese criticize their government also. Plenty. They just don't like other people tell them what's best to do. Go to tianya or other major portal to read yourself. And you will be amazed how fast the information disseminate, be it from abroad or domestic streets.

With all due respect, I don't think many of you know the working of Chinese society very well, not as much as you think you know at least.

[bdk]

Comprehend english well enough? I'm sure BBC and CNN would jump at providing a Chinese language version - in fact BBC world service does do a mandarin and cantonese version and has for a long time - which is blocked whenver anything but "China is awesome!" is aired.

One thing to clarify, I think Deepblue answered your doubt that people in China can't access information freely you thought. Now you can see the fact. We don't need to worry about for BBC and CNN's mandarin version, anyway it should be decided by their management team.

[deepblue]

Comprehend english well enough? I'm sure BBC and CNN would jump at providing a Chinese language version - in fact BBC world service does do a mandarin and cantonese version and has for a long time - which is blocked whenver anything but "China is awesome!" is aired.

I am pointing out the Chinese population isn't just a single mindless "braincleaned" entity. People there are a lot more informed than you would give them credit for, and CNN/BBC are not the only sources they can get information from.

[SamFisher]

One thing to clarify, I think Deepblue answered your doubt that people in China can't access information freely you thought. Now you can see the fact. We don't need to worry about for BBC and CNN's mandarin version, anyway it should be decided by their management team.

With one billion plus news consumers - their management teams decided long ago. News Corp got the inside track on securing news distribution in China, with Star - mostly because Rupert agreed to submit to the most censorship.

[SamFisher]

I am pointing out the Chinese population isn't just a single mindless "braincleaned" entity. People there are a lot more informed than you would give them credit for, and CNN/BBC are not the only sources they can get information from.

You are pointing out that you saw a few minutes of CNN international soccer scores (and not the parts covering asian politics, which are censored and blocked) while you were in a hotel in China once . . .

An important point - to be sure - but wholly irrelevant. Read the thread for more details. Thanks in Retro-Advance.

[myco]

no, you guys had all the connection from europe. it aint like yall started from scratch. you are basically discounting i don't know how many years. makes me wonder how some people think around here.

Uhh, did you even read what he wrote? He specifically stated that U.S. did have connections in Europe, namely being allied with the world superpower after 1815, as well as having a host of other advantages, enabling it to become the economic power that it is today. Makes me wonder if some people actually read around here.

[deepblue]

You are pointing out that you saw a few minutes of CNN international soccer scores (and not the parts covering asian politics, which are censored and blocked) while you were in a hotel in China once . . .

An important point - to be sure - but wholly irrelevant. Read the thread for more details. Thanks in Retro-Advance.

It was actually the BBC, and I watched a lot more than just a few minutes. Remembered Rooney story at the time because it was repeated so often.

Dude, it was you that brought up the couldn't watch CNN/BBC thing.

While you ask me to read the thread, did you even read my post? My opinion of how informed are the Chinese people didn't come from the TV channels available there. I travel to China regularly and have friends and colleagues that live and work there, and I will say it again, people are a lot more informed than you are giving them credit for.

[SamFisher]

It was actually the BBC, and I watched a lot more than just a few minutes. Remembered Rooney story at the time because it was repeated so often.

Dude, it was you that brought up the couldn't watch CNN/BBC thing.

While you ask me to read the thread, did you even read my post? My opinion of how informed are the Chinese people didn't come from the TV channels available there. I travel to China regularly and have friends and colleagues that live and work there, and I will say it again, people are a lot more informed than you are giving them credit for.

This thread, and many other threads, indicates otherwise when it comes to the signature nationalist issues. Read the thread. Read the threads.

[wnes]

So your solution is to call for more government control?

I won't deny that CNN or other western news services have a bias. All news services do. Rather than saying I will counter your bias by just listening to my own why not instead look at a broad range or news services.

When it comes to Tibet, did you ever bother to read sources other than tibet.com and juiced up main stream media news reports? I don't think you did, judoka, judging from your posts.

[langal]

These videos might have already been posted. Just in case some of you haven't seen them.

Tibet: Australian tourist Michael Smith filmed riot.
and provided most of the segments to ABC News in Australia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GEW2tXV4Vw

Tibet Diary：Tibet in Two Americans' Eyes
(Won 2004 AURORA AWARDS)
http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/12/tibet-diarytibet-in-two-americans-eyes.html

A story on the event from the Economist, whose correspondent happened to be in Lhasa.
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875823

From another Canadian tourist's blog describing what he saw:
http://kadfly.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-from-lhasa.html

Another video on the event (warning: violence)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZLzKBvvGMg

A video clip on Tibet history made by a Hollywood company.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY

A little history of Tibet by Michael Parenti, a Ph.D. in political science from Yale University.
http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html#019

A book on Dalai Lama by a German writer, translated into English.
http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/SDLE/

Of course, there are more videos on youtube.

It never harms to take some time reading and watching.

Thanks for sharing. But all those sources are obviously China-sponsored propaganda. I know this because Tibetans are too pure and good to do anything bad. And the Chinese are sneaky and bad.

[langal]

I'm skimming this thread at random since it is chalk full of garbage, by all sides, but this thread caught my attention.

I totally agree that most Americans have little understanding of Chinese history and why the Chinese might think the way they do. While Chinese history is important I think there is a big danger of getting trapped though into history. Into the perception that since China was once carved up by foreign powers that such a thing is likely to happen again and that the rest of the world is against the Chinese. The PRC is a huge economic power and given the interdependence of the World economy it is extremely remote that any major country or coalition will attack the PRC and vice versa.

No one is going to war with the PRC anytime soon.

For instance in past few years there have been massive protests against the US in Europe and Australia yet none of those countries are going to tgo to war against the US. We are too interdependent of a World for things like that to happen.

My own view is that PRC is at a crossroads in regard to it becoming a great modern country and it can go a few different ways. If the PRC continues to try to maintain centralized control it will hamper its development. This is something they intrinsically know as they've already taken many of the reigns on the economy. At the same time a stubborn and belligerant stance towards the rest of world isn't going to be good for it either. While yes the PRC is winning friends with economic might and soft power that has its limits and sooner or later its going to have to acknowledge world opinion.

To head off the inevitable "Well the US has lots of problems." Yes the US does and the US is far from perfect which is why you see many Americans criticizing our own leadership in regard to things like thumbing its nose at World opinion. One of the biggest complaints regarding the GW Bush Admin. is that it has greatly diminished goodwill towards the US.

Successful countries are not static and evolve and that goes for the US as much as the PRC. The problem I see with the PRC and many of its supporters is rather than acknowledge the need to change is to retrench in the face of criticism and to fall back to nationalistic fears of splittests.

Bringing this back to the topic at hand part of why this issue concerns me isn't that I want to see the PRC brought down but that I think it will be a good thing to take up the Dalai Lama on his offer and negotiate with him. It will be a great move to show to the rest of the world, especially the US and Europe, that a great power is magnanimous enough to peacefully negotiate with an opponent. The PRC could set the standard for resolving ethnic conflict but at the moment seems more interested in falling back upon older tactics.

I agree with you on a lot of points. If the PRC wants world power influence and status, then they have to be more open to criticism of human rights issues and such. They definitely do need a public relations consultant as they shoot themselves in the foot a lot - or else, as you said, they really don't care about international opinion.

I think talking to the Dalai Lama would, if anything, be a good pr move. The Dalai has condemned the rioting himself. Yet - most of the "free tibet" crowd still refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing.

What I don't like about the "free-Tibet" or "China sucks" crowd is their narrow-mindedness. Any posted articles that may actually paint Tibetans in a negative light or elevate Chinese people are instantly dismissed as PRC propaganda. Anyone with a pro-China opinion is "brainwashed" by the PRC with no access to "free" media - even if that person lives in the United States and has Directv. I suppose the crap goes both ways but it is the "free Tibet" crowd which claims moral superiority and progressive and unprejudiced enlightenment.

Maybe it just forum-trolling (something that i do too) - but I see the same anti-Chinese attitudes from the media too and it smacks a little of sinophobia to me.

[wnes]

Jesus called out nationalism, as did his earliest followers. He calls out pretense. He calls out human suffering. He calls for human dignity and respect. He doesn't defend the ruling class for the sake of doing so.

You can call it a strawman...but it seems you are NEVER critical of the Chinese government's stance on anything.

Nationalism is not unique or limited to China. There has never been shortage here in the good ol' USA, or anywhere else in the world. It's only coined differently -- patriotism.

Dalai Lama is full of pretense, did ya not know that?

Tibetan serfs and slaves, which accounted for more than 90% Tibetan population, had suffered enormously in the brutal medieval-style old Tibet before they were forever set free from the shackles of Lamaist theocracy. Jesus would hail the liberation of Tibetans by PRC as one of the greatest achievements in mankind.

I am critical of many things in China. The rapid trend of for-profit health care "reform" is the one I am vehemently opposed to. Among others, I have issues with some of China's short-sighted economic development policies, deteriorating environment, lack of independent regulatory government structure and GMPs which often (but not necessarily always) lead to a litany of problems, including product and worker safety. These things, however, are hardly palpable personally by and interested to you average American/non-Chinese reader/poster on a basketball fan subforum, so you don't see me or other posters of Chinese persuasion make a fuss about them right here.

On the other hand, it seems you never have anything good to say about China, do you?

[namo]

Graphic Chinese propaganda
http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/10/dalai-lama-hero-in-western-world.html

China lie, people die...

Daliar

[Ottomaton]

Graphic Chinese propaganda
http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/10/dalai-lama-hero-in-western-world.html

China lie, people die...

Daliar

By the same logic, Chinese practiced horrible deformative foot binding practices well into the 20th century. Therefore the Chinese are evil masters and unfit to rule themselves. I'm sure you will gladly agree that they should resubmit to their British betters, right?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a5/Bound_foot.jpg



If you apply the justifying logic you are using here to other situations, I don't think you will like the results.

[SamFisher]

PRCBot Tibet logic subroutine v3.84

1. Tibet has always been part of China always always always except for when it wasn't and before we invaded last time.
2. Dalai Lama is a fraudulent feudal lord who no Tibetans like with the exception of all of them who are actually just a few of them.
3. Magnificent Chinese older brothers are civilizing grateful happy Tibetan backwards cousins
5. Anybody who says different is product of biased western media which is banned from TIbet, because Xinhua didn't report it.
6. If China tries to accomodate Tibetan human rights or self-government just one inch, USA must give back Mexico to Indians.

[langal]

By the same logic, Chinese practiced horrible denominative foot binding practices well into the 20th century. Therefore the Chinese are evil masters and unfit to rule themselves. I'm sure you will gladly agree that they should resubmit to their British betters, right?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a5/Bound_foot.jpg



If you apply the justifying logic you are using here to other situations, I don't think you will like the results.

You don't really know the history about footbinding. The Manchu dynasty (last dynasty before Sun Yatsen, etc.) pretty much outlawed the practice. The Communists have completely outlawed it.

The Tibetan society right before the PRC did have slavery. The same Commies who outlawed footbinding also outlawed slavery.

The British, on the other hand, hung signs like "NO CHINESE OR DOGS ALLOWED" in Shanghai.

[Ottomaton]

You don't really know the history about footbinding. The Manchu dynasty (last dynasty before Sun Yatsen, etc.) pretty much outlawed the practice. The Communists have completely outlawed it.


There are people who were footbound after those skins were taken in the link provided. If the skins are arelevant reflection on the fitness of rulers in the modern world, then the more recent footbindings are more relevant.

[wnes]

By the same logic, Chinese practiced horrible denominative foot binding practices well into the 20th century. Therefore the Chinese are evil masters and unfit to rule themselves. I'm sure you will gladly agree that they should resubmit to their British betters, right?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a5/Bound_foot.jpg



If you apply the justifying logic you are using here to other situations, I don't think you will like the results.

The difference is that Chinese under PRC did away with the foot binding practices by women.

Tibetans had their chances for decades during the ROC regime and several more years in the PRC era. The medieval customs persisted until PRC central government took care of them.

Some of those are utterly gross. In traditional Tibetan practices, the urine and feces of living buddhas were considered everlasting treasures that practitioners of Traditional Tibetan Medicine eagerly packaged those human waste stuff into their medicine for those longing for healthy life and longevity.

It's no wonder the average life span in old Tibet was around 35 years. Go figure.

[michecon]

There are people who were footbound after those skins were taken in the link provided. If the skins are arelevant reflection on the fitness of rulers in the modern world, then the more recent footbindings are more relevant.

Because the same person who's trying to back in the power was the ruler when skinning happened, while the same can't be said about footbinding?

just trying to help.

[longhornchampno]

[I]
5. Anybody who says different is product of biased western media which is banned from TIbet, because Xinhua didn't report it.

Typical SamFisher retarded reply. I found your point (5) the most interesting. Therefore, I'd like to advice you to look in the mirror and say that to yourself at least 10 times. Talking about being biased, no one even comes close to you here. In your biased eyes, everyone who holds a different opinion is Nazi, is pro-CCP, is brainwashed is a bot or whatever insulting names that you can come up with. You are the definition of a hypocrite.

[langal]

PRCBot Tibet logic subroutine v3.84

1. Tibet has always been part of China always always always except for when it wasn't and before we invaded last time.
2. Dalai Lama is a fraudulent feudal lord who no Tibetans like with the exception of all of them who are actually just a few of them.
3. Magnificent Chinese older brothers are civilizing grateful happy Tibetan backwards cousins
5. Anybody who says different is product of biased western media which is banned from TIbet, because Xinhua didn't report it.
6. If China tries to accomodate Tibetan human rights or self-government just one inch, USA must give back Mexico to Indians.

Sam, this can go both ways. Everyone will just have to agree to disagree. I think Sishir (the actual OP) is pretty moderate and fair-minded actually. He at least acknowledges the basis for another point of view. In turn, I would like to admit that if the PRC pulled out of Tibet, I wouldn't really give a damn. Like you mentioned in another thread, if they want to host the Olympics and play with the big boys, maybe they need to bite the bullet sometimes. I do see the reasoning in that point of view.

Now here are my fact.

1. Tibet has never been a part of China. All historical evidence otherwise must be lies.
2. Tibet was a utopia where there were no slaves. Even if there were, they were happy to be slaves. Dalai rode around town on a golden unicorn. All the women had large breasts and wore low-cut blouses.
3. All the Tibetan slaves were happy to be slaves. Just ask their lords. Blacks were likewise happy to be slaves in the CSA because Jeffy Davis said so.
4. Anybody who says different is the product of brainwashing because we are smarter. Even if they were born and live in the U.S. The Chinese are so sneaky that they can brainwash people from thousands of miles away. Sneaky commie bastards.
5. The US can claim moral superiority because they drafted a letter of apology for "manifest destiny". Let's not forget about those glorious reservations and casino rights.

[Ottomaton]

Because the same person who's trying to back in the power was the ruler when skinning happened, while the same can't be said about footbinding?

just trying to help.

Exactly how many human skins were taken by the current Dali Lama when he was around 20 y.o. and had been the Dali Lama for all of roughly 5 years before he fled Tibet?

The current Dali Lama is as guilty of making human skin drums as the current average Chinese is of footbinding.

[SamFisher]

Typical SamFisher retarded reply. I found your point (5) the most interesting. Therefore, I'd like to advice you to look in the mirror and say that to yourself at least 10 times. Talking about being biased, no one even comes close to you here. In your biased eyes, everyone who holds a different opinion is Nazi, is pro-CCP, is brainwashed is a bot or whatever insulting names that you can come up with. You are the definition of a hypocrite.
And you, Shampoo - you are the definition of a PRCbot, with an upgraded paranoia chip.

Hey I wonder if any former Nazis hiding in South America are taking part in the Buenos Aires Leg of the Joseph Goebbels Olympic torch relay - it after all was his idea.

[DaRock1]

China does no wrong. Disagree and you're ignorant. Because China does no wrong.

You made a very good point.

It's the same logic or say 'tactic' used by people like SamFisher here:

"China does everything wrong. Disagree and your's Nazi and brainwashed. Because China does everything wrong."

You should have addressed your posts to all the hypocrites in this thread. Shall we take a roll call now?

[langal]

Exactly how many human skins were taken by the current Dali Lama when he was around 20 y.o. and had been the Dali Lama for all of roughly 5 years before he fled Tibet?

That is a fair argument. I don't think we can hold the Dalai responsible for all the bad things about Tibetan culture.

However, a lot of these posts are more indictments against the utopian, kumbaya fantasy that many Westerners have about Tibet. Not against the Dalai personally.

[Ottomaton]

That is a fair argument. I don't think we can hold the Dalai responsible for all the bad things about Tibetan culture.

However, a lot of these posts are more indictments against the utopian, kumbaya fantasy that many Westerners have about Tibet. Not against the Dalai personally.

I absolutely will agree that the Dali Lama is not some sort of 'beyond human' being. His poo stinks like the rest of us.

[michecon]

Exactly how many human skins were taken by the current Dali Lama when he was around 20 y.o. and had been the Dali Lama for all of roughly 5 years before he fled Tibet?

I don't know, ask Dalai. You mean he was old enough to organize an uprising to preserve his power but not old enough to outlaw skinning?



The current Dali Lama is as guilty of making human skin drums as the current average Chinese is of footbinding.

Now, that's some fantastic reasoning as in 0+0=100.

[longhornchampno]

And you, Shampoo - you are the definition of a PRCbot, with an upgraded paranoia chip.

Hey I wonder if any former Nazis hiding in South America are taking part in the Buenos Aires Leg of the Joseph Goebbels Olympic torch relay - it after all was his idea.

Hey, when will you man-up just for once and address what I said? I guess you found my point too difficult to reply to so you once again had to sidestepped and resorted to throwing out insults and name-calling? You said people are biased. I made a case that you are by far the most biased one here, based on what your own former posts. There is nothing that you can think of to counter it, right? I think so because otherwise you wouldn't have needed to use insults and call names. Isn't it sad that it's the best reply that you could come up with?

[deepblue]

This thread, and many other threads, indicates otherwise when it comes to the signature nationalist issues. Read the thread. Read the threads.

Sure, if you think the bbs is a good indicator. I guess the Dems will win with a 70% majority in the election judging by D&D.

[SamFisher]

Hey, when will you man-up just for once and address what I said? I guess you found my point too difficult to reply to so you once again had to sidestepped and resorted to throwing out insults and name-calling? You said people are biased. I made a case that you are by far the most biased one here, based on what your own former posts. There is nothing that you can think of to counter it, right? I think so because otherwise you wouldn't have needed to use insults and call names. Isn't it sad that it's the best reply that you could come up with?
Not really - you guys cite propaganda piece after propaganda piece from the pro-CCP viewpoint and cite it as gospel. I believe in this entire thread I have maybe cited one Tibetan exile based source. Once or twice. I recognize that a lot of their claims are exaggerated. I also recognize that it goes both ways. I have yet to see any of the PRC-bots and CCP-droids ever ever ever question official CCP Borg collective party numbers once. it almost never occurs because guys like you are absoutely OBSESSED with a photo being cropped on CNN.com.

Meanwhile the CCP conducts staged media events where the drive the press around with OFFICIAL government minders (and they can't even do that right, the monks keep making them look stupid)...the CCP imposes a news quarantine of events in Tibet and makes ridiculous claim after ridiculous claim (as is their history in such matters) and you guys don't even notice it. To top it off the party line is completely inconsistent because it changes all the time (nobody cares about hte dalai lama he is weak and nobody vs. he is an evil criminal mastermind) But again you don't notice it publicly - because to acknowledge it would cause a breakdown of PRCBot programming and result in a critical internet loss of face.

Now - go into PRC-bot subroutine number 5 for your response....yawn.

[Ottomaton]

Now, that's some fantastic reasoning as in 0+0=100.

Actually, 0+0=0. As in, both of those subject are about 0% relevant. Neither one makes a bit of difference in the modern world. We don't hold the Chinese accountable for traditional Chinese practices. And healty, clear headed people don't hold the Dali Lama accountable for traditional Tibetan practices.

[WNBA]

I did not think CNN was this bad.... but by reading their recent coverage on the torch relay in SF,hmm.... they only show you exactly one side of the story!

considering how many red Chinese flags were there that day, CNN must have done a great job of editing.

whatever, screw the haters and liars:

http://pic.6park.com/img/up2/14.jpg

[michecon]

Actually, 0+0=0. As in, both of those subject are about 0% relevant. Neither one makes a bit of difference in the modern world. We don't hold the Chinese accountable for traditional Chinese practices. And healty, clear headed people don't hold the Dali Lama accountable for traditional Tibetan practices.

yeah keep mixing facts and non-facts will get you somewhere. I'm still wondering what do you have to say about the "old enough" part.

Let me break it down for you:
*None of Chinese leaders presided over any period where footbinding was leagal.
In fact, I don't know if anyone is alive nowadays who experienced the time it was legal.
*Dalai presided over a period when skinning was legal in Tibet. Be it only 5 years in to his ruling or 20 years old. Nevertheless, he was capable of raising an uprising.
* Yet, you keep mixing the two as if these two event has some connection. Not!



Ok, now, even if you want to completely exonerate Dalai from that terrible period, you then have to acknowledge that he was part of a political system of which he doesn't have full control, and the figuehead. Thus, any further talk of Dalai and negotiation should bear that political system in mind.

[cshen]

Well, not 3,000 years. Maybe 150 years..1750-1900.

Man, I hope you don't get in any trouble for your bold criticism though, you really examined China's dirty laundry there. Very introspective.

So it looks like it took US about another 100 years to reach the current human rights status. i am really impressed.

[longhornchampno]

Not really - you guys cite propaganda piece after propaganda piece from the pro-CCP viewpoint and cite it as gospel. I believe in this entire thread I have maybe cited one Tibetan exile based source. Once or twice. I recognize that a lot of their claims are exaggerated. I also recognize that it goes both ways. I have yet to see any of the PRC-bots and CCP-droids ever ever ever question official CCP Borg collective party numbers once. it almost never occurs because guys like you are absoutely OBSESSED with a photo being cropped on CNN.com.

Meanwhile the CCP conducts staged media events where the drive the press around with OFFICIAL government minders (and they can't even do that right, the monks keep making them look stupid)...the CCP imposes a news quarantine of events in Tibet and makes ridiculous claim after ridiculous claim (as is their history in such matters) and you guys don't even notice it. To top it off the party line is completely inconsistent because it changes all the time (nobody cares about hte dalai lama he is weak and nobody vs. he is an evil criminal mastermind) But again you don't notice it publicly - because to acknowledge it would cause a breakdown of PRCBot programming and result in a critical internet loss of face.

Now - go into PRC-bot subroutine number 5 for your response....yawn.

What propaganda have I cited? Have I cited anything at all? Point it out for me if you can, otherwise it's just another lie on your part.

Now if you don't like the source of some other people quoted , go ahead to talk to them. I just wish you could man up just for once to address my point directly. I initially joined this thread because of the photoshopped picture. But then you immediately jumped on me and called all kind of names on me just because I did not like the media doctoring picture and try to make the readers believe what they want them to believe. And then the more I read your posts, I more I found out how biased and hypocritical you are. And what pissed me off is that you actually turned around and called the other people biased. Like what I have said, talking about being biased, no one comes even close to you here. You do not allow any different opinion. If anyone does not agree with you, he is a Nazi, a brainwashed person, a bot, etc. You resorted to throwing out insults and calling all different kind of names if anyone holds a different opinion that you do. But then you are shameless enough to turn around and keep trying to preach democracy and freedom here. It's this kind of hypocrisy that make me want to puke. Yes, you are the definition of a hypocrite.

[zazahan]

Thanks for sharing. But all those sources are obviously China-sponsored propaganda. I know this because Tibetans are too pure and good to do anything bad. And the Chinese are sneaky and bad.

There are plenty of criticism of Chinese government in those videos and stories. I urge you to watch the whole videos before relating them to China-sponsorship.

Most of these sources are from people that have no relationship whatsoever with China. If you want to believe what CNN told you, you may at least have the open mind to try to believe what fact others are describing.

For example, the Economist article questioned China's Tibet policy, and described the American Jounalist's personal experience as well. I don't agree with all the viewpoints in this article, but at least I tried to learn from sources different than CNN.

The rioting quickly fanned through the winding alleyways of the city's old Tibetan area south of Beijing Road. Many of these streets are lined with small shops, mostly owned by Hans or Huis, a Muslim ethnic group that controls much of Lhasa's meat trade. Crowds formed, seemingly spontaneously, in numerous parts of the district. They smashed into non-Tibetan shops, pulled merchandise onto the streets, piled it up and set fire to it. Everything from sides of yak meat to items of laundry was thrown onto the pyres. Rioters delighted in tossing in cooking-gas canisters and running for cover as they exploded. A few yelled “Long live the Dalai Lama!” and “Free Tibet!”

[real_egal]

There are plenty of criticism of Chinese government in those videos and stories. I urge you to watch the whole videos before relating them to China-sponsorship.


Forgot to turn on your sarcasm detector? :)

[zazahan]

Forgot to turn on your sarcasm detector? :)

Ok, my fault. Anyway, I am just trying to provide the viewpoints from somebody independent of both sides.

[Ottomaton]

*Dalai presided over a period when skinning was legal in Tibet. Be it only 5 years in to his ruling or 20 years old. Nevertheless, he was capable of raising an uprising.


Apparently, you can still buy human skin and bone folk art and religious items in Tibet. So if the Dali Lama is being kept away and out of power to avoid the continuation of this practice, then China is not doing a very good job.

One example (http://www.zanzibar-trading.com/store/default.asp?id=1569)

There are several other accounts and items out there if you want more proof.

[langal]

Ok, my fault. Anyway, I am just trying to provide the viewpoints from somebody independent of both sides.

That seems to be a problem here. Any independent thought away from the kumbaya-Tibet fantasy is considered PRC brainwashing or more sneaky Chinese propoganda.

Heck most of those articles you posted were written by white people.

[pippendagimp]

hey real_egal........my apologies again for a few weeks back.....it was langal i had gotten you confused with....

[michecon]

Apparently, you can still buy human skin and bone folk art and religious items in Tibet. So if the Dali Lama is being kept away and out of power to avoid the continuation of this practice, then China is not doing a very good job.

One example (http://www.zanzibar-trading.com/store/default.asp?id=1569)

There are several other accounts and items out there if you want more proof.


wow, I'm really impressed with your digging skills.
But, what are you trying to prove and what's the relevance? China still allow legal skinning? Is this website Chinese? Did he obtain the object legally? What was the process the object was actually made and when?

Maybe, when if China crack down things like this in monasteries you guys can cry religious oppression again.

Anyway, keep slinging mud, see if any sticks. And thanks for the link, I can always learn something new.

[langal]

hey real_egal........my apologies again for a few weeks back.....it was langal i had gotten you confused with....

were you going to give a box of chocolates?

[zazahan]

That seems to be a problem here. Any independent thought away from the kumbaya-Tibet fantasy is considered PRC brainwashing or more sneaky Chinese propoganda.

Heck most of those articles you posted were written by white people.

And any pro-China protests were organized by the Chinese government. :rolleyes:

[namo]

"When We build our industries, You called us Polluters. When we sell u goods, You blame us for global warming. When We buy oil, You called that exploitation and Genocide. When You fight for oil, You called that Liberation. When We were lost in Chaos and rampage, You wanted Rules of Law for us. When We uphold law and order against Violence, You called that Violating Human Rights. When We were silent, You said you want us to have Free Speech. When We were silent no more, You say we were Brainwashed."

[real_egal]

hey real_egal........my apologies again for a few weeks back.....it was langal i had gotten you confused with....

No harm done. Don't worry.

I was referring to someone else, who used a story from Internet, 20 years ago, to justify his claim that it's a known fact that all Chinese are racists against blacks.

[Dubious]

So it looks like it took US about another 100 years to reach the current human rights status. i am really impressed.

Discrimination against black people was still at an abhorrent level in my lifetime. The effects still linger today.

The Bush administration in it's war on terror has limited the individual freedom and privacy that Americans have enjoyed since the Warren Court.

So I would hardly argue that conditions in the US are the best they can be.
But, we can speak about it, we can assemble to protest, we can express point of view in a fee press and we can vote our conscience within the limits of party politics; I mean a secular, libertarian, Green party candidate or ultra-leftist isn't going to get elected dogcatcher in America

We are sort of f**ked up but there are few organized governments on Earth that are better, maybe Switzerland, Norway or Iceland but thats about it.

Young people should be rebellious! It's a shame to waste your youth on conformity. You need to try and change things before you get too dependent on the system, you need to speak up when you don't have anything to lose. Don't trust anyone over 30, they just want to take advantage of you. Have some individuality or just be one of the billion other worker bees...work hard, supply the Queen, and die.

I know I'm subversive, I want people to be free and happy. I don't even know what you guys are trying to convince the Americans of: kow towing to an imposed sense of order is good? Modernized fuedalism is progress?

It's 1984 in China, man. Wake the f**k up! You are being used.

[DaRock1]

Young people should be rebellious! It's a shame to waste your youth on conformity. You need to try and change things before you get too dependent on the system, you need to speak up when you don't have anything to lose. Don't trust anyone over 30, they just want to take advantage of you. Have some individuality or just be one of the billion other worker bees...work hard, supply the Queen, and die.

I'd say it's because they can think so that's why they hold a different opinion than yours. Theya er speaking up to express themselves. Those who use insults and call other people names in order to stop them from expressing themselves are the one who try to force other people into conformity .

[langal]

I'd say it's because they can think so that's why they hold a different opinion than yours. Theya er speaking up to express themselves. Those who use insults and call other people names in order to stop them from expressing themselves are the one who try to force other people into conformity .

basically that is the crux of the matter. seems like a lot of "real" Americans get the panties in a bunch when non-whites disagree with them. they start throwing the "brainwashed", borg, chinaman argument around..

[SamFisher]

basically that is the crux of the matter. seems like a lot of "real" Americans get the panties in a bunch when non-whites disagree with them. they start throwing the "brainwashed", borg, chinaman argument around..

Nobody would throw out the term "brainwashed" if you didn't hear the same unyielding absolute claims OVER AND OVER again, carped straight from official CCP party dogma. It's incredible really.

[tinman]

Did China ban pictures of Richard Gere? I'm slamming WNBA with them and I guess he can't see them.

I guess the Beastie Boys aren't popular in China either.

[DaRock1]

Nobody would throw out the term "brainwashed" if you didn't hear the same unyielding absolute claims OVER AND OVER again, carped straight from official CCP party dogma. It's incredible really.

There are also a few of you who say "the same unyielding absolute claims over and over again", straight from some party line. I find that incredible too.

[SamFisher]

There are also a few of you who say "the same unyielding absolute claims over and over again", straight from some party line. I find that incredible too.

Yeah but you're slow on the uptake so it doesn't really count.

[yuantian]

Did China ban pictures of Richard Gere? I'm slamming WNBA with them and I guess he can't see them.

I guess the Beastie Boys aren't popular in China either.

i doubt it. i'm going to try to search online when i get there in a couple of month. even if i can, i bet people hate them, especially richard gere. he has a very bad reputation in oversea chinese. as for beastie boys, their music sucks first of all. chinese people don't listen to that kind of music.

[WNBA]

Did China ban pictures of Richard Gere? I'm slamming WNBA with them and I guess he can't see them.

I guess the Beastie Boys aren't popular in China either.

where tinman got owned :D

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=146469

[tinman]

where tinman got owned :D

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=146469
in your dreams dude.

i totally owned you on that, it not my fault you are ignorant to know about pop culture like Richard Gere and great Kung Fu Movies like "five elemental ninjas" aka Chinese Super Ninjas

NBA > WNBA