2 Dead as Protests Break out in Tibet

[yuantian]

I don't mean to be rude, but your comments read like a bit of a non-sequitur. I don't understand what you are trying to say. Kurdis? I don't know what that is. I even Googled it thinking I must be missing something obvious, but no luck. Do you mean Kurdish? or Kurtis?

If you are advocating for the liberation and unification of Kurdish people, I'm sure they appreciate your support of Kurdistan, and I too wish them all the luck in the world. But it still seems like a non-sequitur in the context of my post. If you meant something else, could you please explain?

anyway... found the following from the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/asia/la-fg-chispin17mar17,1,7419697.story) which I'm sure will elicit annoyed responses from some:


China plays victim for its audience

Government media images of Tibetans as the aggressors stoke support at home.

LANZHOU, CHINA -- Even as China faces global criticism for its crackdown on Tibetan Buddhists, it's winning the battle that it most cares about: support for its policies among Chinese back home.

One key factor is a media strategy that, while still blunt and heavily reliant on censorship and propaganda, shows more nuance than usual for the lumbering Communist Party.

This last week the government has used something it traditionally viewed as a big negative, any suggestion that it's not in total control, to its advantage by going large with print, still and video coverage of Tibetans attacking Han Chinese in the Tibetan capital, Lhasa, and destroying their property.

Not only does this rather ironically paint the Chinese state and its massive police force as something of a victim, analysts said, but it also stirs up feelings of fear and anger among many Han, the nation's majority population, that add a personal dimension to the riots.

At a political level, the coverage has also bolstered the government's assertion that its archenemy, the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, is masterminding the protests from abroad and the atheist government's long-standing contention that Tibetan monks are anything but neutral, nonpolitical and peace-loving.

Many of the videos of the riots on the state-run CCTV website have been shot and edited to point up crimson-robed monks bashing and burning with the best of the mob. And to the extent the Dalai Lama has stopped short of outright condemning the monks and the protest, China gains points.

"In this crisis, their strategy has been pretty effective," said Xiao Qiang, director of the China Internet Project at UC Berkeley. "They've been able to portray it as 'we Chinese' versus 'they Tibetans' and seen public opinion go their way."

This policy is a case of making a virtue of necessity given that absolute control of information has become increasingly difficult.

The state's information guardians have also picked up a few other tricks. They're using more individual stories of Han families who were victimized in Tibet, aware that a personal narrative is far more powerful than vague propaganda language. And they've sprinkled their official dispatches with such terminology as "bloggers," "netizens" and "blogosphere" to look more current and inclusive.

At the same time, the approach is more of a paint job than a renovation as China's propaganda ministry continues to use many traditional tactics honed in dusty Soviet offices decades ago.

Unrest is blamed on "outside" elements, Tibetans are urged to report on other "troublemakers" and there are hints, although no guarantees, of leniency for those who turn themselves in.

On other fronts, the "Great Firewall," China's Internet filtering and monitoring system, has been in overdrive during the last week, deleting comments furiously and blocking Internet searches of such terms as "Tibet," "Lhasa," "demonstration" and "March 14" -- the day of protests in which at least 10 people were killed.

Some pro-government comments have found their way onto the Internet, though many are anonymous and there is no fast way to determine their origin.

"I strongly condemn the Dalai clique trying to undermine China's prosperity," said an anonymous posting from the southern city of Guangzhou on the popular Sohu portal.

Independent views opposing the government are strongly discouraged. The government has banned travel by foreigners to Tibet.

"The control strategy comes from the very top and it's well orchestrated," Xiao said. "It's more intense than I've ever seen."

Although international opinion is important, particularly as Beijing prepares to hold the Olympics in August, all politics are local, even in China. And for the party, maintaining its monopoly political grip on its far-flung empire is central to its strategy and continued existence, underscoring its vow that Tibet will never be allowed independence.

The strategy has been well received among members of the country's often strongly nationalist Chinese-language community. The government "should send more auxiliary police and arm each one with a rubber stick" against protesters, said a post on the Internet bulletin board Douban.

The themes of national unity and respect for the integrity of the motherland have also struck a chord with many in the more sophisticated overseas Chinese Internet community.

"The government has done well," said Robert Liu, a blogger who has been studying economics in the U.S. for the last six months. "They're doing better and have a more mature approach, although they still have a long way to go."

Growing domestic support of its policies gives the Chinese government political cover to restore order to the restive ethnically Tibetan areas of the Tibet Autonomous Region and Qinghai and Gansu provinces as it sees fit, knowing that accounts of heavy-handed tactics will inevitably surface in an increasingly porous society.

This is a different dynamic than in 1989 when many Chinese identified with the students rather than the government in Tiananmen Square.

Images of Tibetan rioting are also being employed to bolster the government's core message that foreign human rights groups and activists such as the Dalai Lama are bent on ruining the Olympics to keep China down. The Dalai Lama said Sunday that China deserves to host the Olympics and that the Games should not be boycotted.

Although China lacks the democratic institutions, vocal critics or opinion polls that would gauge the effectiveness of its strategy and public perception of its Tibet policies, one indicator may be its censorship of coverage by television networks BBC and CNN inside the country.

Instead of blacking out all such Tibet reports, leading to long and annoying instances of blank screens early in the week, the government allowed more of them to air as the week wore on. A BBC report that aired Sunday in Beijing ran 20 minutes, including a five-minute excerpt with the Dalai Lama.

"The government is showing more confidence and learning more about spin," said Michael Anti, a well-known Chinese blogger on a Nieman fellowship this year at Harvard. "They've learned more PR tactics from Western people. They see the way the White House and the Pentagon do it."





sigh... more propaganda. :eek:

[michecon]

anyway... found the following from the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/asia/la-fg-chispin17mar17,1,7419697.story) which I'm sure will elicit annoyed responses from some:


[/rquoter]

Nice theory. You know what? I don't read Chinese state press AT ALL. I read only western press, yet I don't condone violence.

[SamFisher]

I'm glad that the pro-PRC c nationalists have taken Michael Parenti to be their lord and savior.

It really dovetails very nicely to the Cultural Genocide charge (which is not really a charge, it's reality as anyone who has traveled to tibet can tell you). - Mr. Parenti's biggest claim to fame is writing several pro-Serbian books about the ethnic cleansing years.

He's one of the west's leading scholars in state-sponsored desruction of ethnic minorities! Nice ally!

[CometsWin]

LOL, another brain-washed ignoramus. What do you call the rebellion of 1959? "Peaceful demonstration"? I suggest you go look up a book called CIA's secret war in Tibet, you will see how "peaceful" Dalai was. Dalai started professing "pacifism" only after he got his butt kicked when he tried violence. Now he is trying it both ways, inciting violence while pretending to have no knowledge of it.



Ignoramus? What are you f'n 12 years old? Chinese talking about people being brain washed? That's like the biggest kettle calling the pot in the history of mankind. Nice one.

Free peoples tend to support rebellion against all Communist invaders and occupiers. You're not going to get any sympathy in this world for people trying to defend themselves from Communist oppression. Only the Chinese would brag about kicking the butts of pacifists.

If you believe he's inciting violence, then prove it. China is state controlled so it should have the means to prove any charges against him. We're waiting...

[yeo]

http://www.sinodaily.com/2006/080318130235.tytt565y.html


Tourists describe 'merciless' beatings of Chinese in Tibet

KATHMANDU, March 18 (AFP) Mar 18, 2008

Rampaging Tibetan youths stoned and beat Chinese people in the Tibetan capital and set ablaze stores but now calm has returned after a military clampdown, tourists emerging from the Himalayan region said Tuesday.

"It was an explosion of anger against the Chinese and Muslims by the Tibetans," 19-year-old Canadian John Kenwood told AFP, describing an orgy of violence that swept the ancient city of Lhasa.

Kenwood and other tourists, who arrived by plane in Nepal's capital Kathmandu on Tuesday, witnessed the unrest, which reached a climax on Friday when they said Han Chinese as well as Muslims were targeted.

They described scenes in which mobs relentlessly beat and kicked ethnic Han Chinese, whose influx into the region has been blamed by Tibetans for altering its unique culture and way of life.

Kenwood said he saw four or five Tibetan men on Friday "mercilessly" stoning and kicking a Chinese motorcyclist.

"Eventually they got him on the ground, they were hitting him on the head with stones until he lost consciousness.

"I believe that young man was killed," Kenwood told AFP, but added he could not be sure. He said he saw no Tibetan deaths.

Tibet's government-in-exile said on Tuesday the "confirmed" Tibetan death toll from more than a week of unrest was 99. China has said "13 innocent civilians" died and that it used no "lethal" force to subdue the rioting.

The Tibetans "were throwing stones at anything that drove by," Kenwood said.

"The young people were involved and the old people were supporting by screaming -- howling like wolves. Everyone who looked Chinese was attacked," said 25-year-old Swiss tourist Claude Balsiger.

"They attacked an old Chinese man on a bicycle. They hit his head really hard with stones (but) some old Tibetan people went into the crowd to make them stop," he said.

Kenwood recounted another brave rescue when a Chinese man was pleading for mercy from rock-wielding Tibetans.

"They were kicking him in the ribs and he was bleeding from the face," he said. "But then a white man walked up... helped him up from the ground. There was a crowd of Tibetans holding stones, he held the Chinese man close, waved his hand at the crowd and they let him lead the man to safety."

Reacting to the tourists' accounts, Thubten Samphel, a spokesman for the Tibetan government-in-exile in the northern Indian hill town of Dharamshala, called the violence "very tragic."

The Tibetans "have been told to keep their struggle non-violent," he told AFP by telephone.

The unrest began after Tibetans marked on March 10 the 49th anniversary of their failed uprising against Chinese rule in 1959. Then, Tibet's Buddhist spiritual leader the Dalai Lama trekked through the Himalayas and crossed into India, making Dharamshala a base after the revolt.

By last Saturday, Chinese security forces had locked down the Tibetan capital.

The Chinese military ordered tourists to stay in their hotels from where they said they could hear gunfire and tear gas shells exploding.

On Monday the tourists were allowed some movement but had to show their passports at frequent checkpoints.

"Shops were all burnt out -- all the merchandise was on the street in a bonfire. Many buildings were gutted," said Serge Lachapelle, a tourist from Montreal in Canada.

"The Muslim district was entirely destroyed -- every store was destroyed," said Kenwood.

"I was able to go and eat in a restaurant (outside the hotel) this morning (Tuesday). The Tibetans were not smiling anymore," he said.

[michecon]

Speaking of culture, among all the hubris about reincarnation and what not, Dalai Lama is actually contemplating doing away with the traditional reincarnation process all together, and letting himself APPOINT a new Dalai himself, as reported by NYT. He has already motioned this to his council. I guess Dalai himself is THE culture then. It's all my cultural is better than your culture, it's all politics.

The cultural talk also reminds me of that documentary of US armies doing nothing during the time of looting in national museum of Iraq, despite the repeated plea from the Iraqis. Thousands years of history gone, many symbols of Iraqi culture permanently destroyed. I didn't hear the State department say nothing about cultural genocide then?

[rocketsjudoka]

How can they beat a nuclear power who has one billion Han Chinese who are firmly behind the Communist Party's Tibet policy?

I don't think PRC cares if the Tibetans burn their own homeland to the ground.

If anything the last 20 years should show they don't have to physically beat the PRC or even burn their homeland. The Tibetan diaspora is wide and if they wanted to could launch a worldwide terrorist campaign against the PRC and PRC interest. They would follow the assymetric warfare model of groups like the Hezbollah.

[michecon]

You're not going to get any sympathy in this world for people trying to defend themselves from Communist oppression.

Young man, defending themselves from Communist oppression does not equal attacking and killing innocent civilians. I suggest going after PLA directly, what do you say?

[rocketsjudoka]

For those who think the Dalai Lama is behind the violence he has come out and threatened to step down if violence by Tibetans continues he has also denied he is behind the violence and the PRC is yet to release evidence that he is.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/18/tibet.unrest/index.html

BEIJING, China (CNN) -- The Dalai Lama will step down as leader of Tibet's government-in-exile if violence by protesters in the region worsens, the exiled spiritual leader said Tuesday after China's premier blamed his supporters for the growing unrest.

The Chinese prime minister accuses me of all these things I said," the Dalai Lama said.

"Absolutely not. Prime minister come here and investigate thoroughly all our files, or record my speeches. Then the prime minister will know how much is distorted by local officials."

However, he said he was concerned by the wave of violence in Tibet which erupted last Friday and has left an undetermined number of people dead.

"If things go out of control then my only option is to completely resign," he said.

A spokesman for the Dalai Lama later clarified that he was referring to his political role as Tibetan leader-in-exile, rather than his spiritual role, AP said.

"If the Tibetans were to choose the path of violence he would have to resign because he is completely committed to non-violence," Tenzin Takhla told reporters.

"He would resign as the political leader and head of state, but not as the Dalai Lama. He will always be the Dalai Lama."

Earlier, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao had blamed supporters of the Dalai Lama for the recent violence in Tibet.

He also said Chinese forces exercised restraint in confronting unrest there.

"There is ample fact and we also have plenty of evidence proving that this incident was organized, premeditated, masterminded and incited by the Dalai clique," Wen said in a televised news conference.

The precise number of victims -- and which side they were on -- remained in dispute, but James Miles, a reporter for The Economist, said it appeared that the dead included Tibetans as well as Han Chinese who live and operate businesses in Tibet. Watch Chinese police on the streets »

Additional clashes have been reported in other parts of China with significant ethnic Tibetan populations.

Some Tibetans have long advocated independence for Tibet, which is formally an autonomous region of China. The Dalai Lama stopped short of a call for independence this week but argued that the Chinese treat Tibetans as second-class citizens in their own land. He said Tibetans need a full and genuine autonomy to protect their cultural heritage.

The Tibetan government-in-exile said at least 80 people were killed by police in the capital of Lhasa, while local authorities placed the number far lower. Watch riot police search homes »

"There are 13 common people who died in the beating, burning and smashing in the riots," said Champa Phuntsok, the head of Tibet's regional government.

"They died of fire, asphyxiation and beating. Some of them were set on fire by rioters and died in the burning."

Meanwhile global protests have gathered pace, with shows of support for Tibetan independence in South Korea and Australia among others. Sara Sidner, CNN's New Delhi correspondent, reporting from demonstrations in Dharamsala, northeastern India, said: "The protesters have said they are going to protest for as long as it takes."

The Dalai Lama accused China on Monday of "cultural genocide" in Tibet -- something Wen dismissed.

"Those claims that the Chinese government is engaged in so-called cultural genocide are lies," he said, pledging that Beijing will continue to "protect the culture ... in Tibet."

"We will continue to help Tibet improve the livelihood of people of all ethnic groups," Wen said. "We will never waver in this position."

Washington has encouraged China's leaders to reach out to the Dalai Lama.

"We have really urged the Chinese over several years to find a way to talk with the Dalai Lama, who is a figure of authority, who is not a separatist, and to find a way to engage him and bring his moral weight to a more sustainable and better solution of the Tibet issue," Rice said from Moscow on Monday.

The U.S. State Department urged restraint as the Chinese government responds to the Tibetan protesters.

Meanwhile, CNN's John Vause witnessed the movement of Chinese military convoys near Tibet on Tuesday. Watch troop movements in Sichuan »

"We saw a convoy of military vehicles heading north on the road to Nwaga County here in Sichuan province," Vause reported. "That's where exiled Tibetan groups claim there have been deadly clashes over the last couple of days with more than 30 protesters, including monks, women and children, killed by Chinese security forces."

There are also claims of violence by Tibetans against ethnic Chinese.

Watch the generational divide among independence activists »

China's Xinhua news agency reported Monday that rioters set fires at more than 300 locations in Lhasa on Friday, including residences and more than 200 shops. Xinhua also said they smashed and burned dozens of vehicles, attacked schools, banks, hospitals, shops, government offices, utilities and state media offices.

A CNN crew tried to travel to Tibet or Nwaga to investigate the reported clashes, but Chinese security forces turned them back while they were several hundred miles away, Vause reported.

During his news conference, Wen made it clear that government forces would maintain control.

"We are fully capable of maintaining stability and normal public order in Tibet," he said. E-mail to a friend

[leebigez]

LOL- it's not a nation witin a nation, it's been the longstanding policy (now scuccessfully enacted) of the CCP to overwhelm the Tibetans with numbers and make them outlaws in their own land.

Now it has worked, and they are upset because the Tibetan chickens are coming home to roost.

Note to CCP: when you occupy a country and subjugate its people- backlash is inevitable. Remember that in the future.

Isnt that what we're doing in in iraq and Afganihastan?

[yuantian]

For those who think the Dalai Lama is behind the violence he has come out and threatened to step down if violence by Tibetans continues he has also denied he is behind the violence and the PRC is yet to release evidence that he is.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/18/tibet.unrest/index.html


says who? even the chinese government said, it's planned by the lama's followers. he doesn't need to organize it ok. they are all his followers, obviously that's a true statement. i don't think any of the posters suggested he himself directly planned everything out.

[yuantian]

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7302319.stm)

more accounts of the violence. it's pretty obvious there were a lot of thugs targetting anyone (han, muslims, etc.) including the well to do tibetans.

[longhornchampno]

I'm glad that the pro-PRC c nationalists have taken Michael Parenti to be their lord and savior.

It really dovetails very nicely to the Cultural Genocide charge (which is not really a charge, it's reality as anyone who has traveled to tibet can tell you). - Mr. Parenti's biggest claim to fame is writing several pro-Serbian books about the ethnic cleansing years.

He's one of the west's leading scholars in state-sponsored desruction of ethnic minorities! Nice ally!

Alright, so now you have backpedalled and emphasized that it is "Cultural Genocide" instead of "Genocide". I wonder why you would only say "Genocide" before in order to falsely imply and paint a false image of mass killing. What a way to dramatize and sensationalize your own posts.

Oh, I have one more question. Do you still consider anyone who thinks the media is lame to have doctored the picture to be pro-"Cultural Genocide"?

[SamFisher]

Alright, so now you have backpedalled and emphasized that it is "Cultural Genocide" instead of "Genocide". I wonder why you would only say "Genocide" before in order to falsely imply and paint a false image of mass killing. What a way to dramatize and sensationalize your own posts.
oh yawn, i'm backpedaling am I? Well then I'll repedal and call it regular old genocide. I don't really see that as a huge backpedal but since you're reading every modifier literally, go ahead and call it that if it makes you happy. It's probably technically not since there's no mass killing, it's soft genocide consisting of both stifling tibetans and their culture, and most importantly, deliberately ostracizing and overwhelming them via resettlement, the presence of the People's Occupation Army, making them into minoriiteis in their own land, which is not really their own, since the invasion and occupation.

The results of this are on display this week. Happy little model chinese citizen tibetans (like the kind broadcast on CCTV) don't go on week-long riots, nor can it be the product of a tiny group of thugs - chinese police are not especially competent, I imagein, but not that incompetent either.

Rather, the outcome this week is the work of an oppressed people.


Oh, I have one more question. Do you still consider anyone who thinks the media is lame to have doctored the picture to be pro-"Cultural Genocide"?
No, see, not according to brainwashing party line, it's not genocide. you're just in favor of elevating your poor backwards Tibetan cousins by making them into good little obedient chinese speakers and employees in chinese buisness enterprises,

It's not genocide - it's charity! Hu Jintao is a national hero to all Tibetans.

[longhornchampno]

oh yawn, i'm backpedaling am I? Well then I'll repedal and call it regular old genocide. I don't really see that as a huge backpedal but since you're reading every modifier literally, go ahead and call it that if it makes you happy. It's probably technically not since there's no mass killing, it's soft genocide consisting of both stifling tibetans and their culture, and most importantly, deliberately ostracizing and overwhelming them via resettlement, the presence of the People's Occupation Army, making them into minoriiteis in their own land, which is not really their own, since the invasion and occupation.

The results of this are on display this week. Happy little model chinese citizen tibetans (like the kind broadcast on CCTV) don't go on week-long riots, nor can it be the product of a tiny group of thugs - chinese police are not especially competent, I imagein, but not that incompetent either.

Rather, the outcome this week is the work of an oppressed people.

No, see, not according to brainwashing party line, it's not genocide. you're just in favor of elevating your poor backwards Tibetan cousins by making them into good little obedient chinese speakers and employees in chinese buisness enterprises,

It's not genocide - it's charity! Hu Jintao is a national hero to all Tibetans.

LOL, when will you man up and finally face the questions? Your tactic of dodging challenging questions is getting old in a hurry. Let me once again lay it out for you in the most plain and simple way here. I have basically raised three points in this thread:

(1) The media is lame to have doctored the picture.

(2) Sam Fisher accuses anyone who thinks the media is lame to have doctored the picture of being pro-CCP, pro-China nationalist, or pro-genocide (in order to paint a false image of mass killing).

(3) Same Fisher has gradually backpedalled and emphasized it is pro-Cultural genocide instead of pro-genocide.

What's do they have anything to do with whatever party line in your mind? What's up with "elevating your poor backwards Tibetan cousins"??? And how did Hu Jintao get into this discussion? Is it because he's such a hero to you that you just can't stop mentioning his name?

I think cultural genocide is wrong. Tibetans should be able to preserve their own culture. I honestly have never been Tibet before so I have no idea how serious the situation is. And I have no idea whether there is really an effort out there to replace the Tibetan culture with the Han culture. But I'd definitely oppose it if there is one. Now, I think it's very lame of you to have intentionally made it out like it is mass killing by just saying 'genocide'. I hope you are capable of making a good argument without sensationalize and exergerating stuffs.

Now, don't keep going around the questions. What about making an attempt just for once to address directly the point (1) (2) and (3) above.

[yuantian]

LOL, when will you man up and finally face the questions? Your tactic of dodging challenging questions is getting old in a hurry. Let me once again lay it out for you in the most plain and simple way here. I have basically raised three points in this thread:

(1) The media is lame to have doctored the picture.

(2) Sam Fisher accuses anyone who thinks the media is lame to have doctored the picture of being pro-CCP, pro-China nationalist, or pro-genocide (in order to paint a false image of mass killing).

(3) Same Fisher has gradually backpedalled and emphasized it is pro-Cultural genocide instead of pro-genocide.

What's do they have anything to do with whatever party line in your mind? What's up with "elevating your poor backwards Tibetan cousins"??? And how did Hu Jintao get into this discussion? Is it because he's such a hero to you that you just can't stop mentioning his name?

I think cultural genocide is wrong. Tibetans should be able to preserve their own culture. I honestly have never been Tibet before so I have no idea how serious the situation is. And I have no idea whether there is really an effort out there to replace the Tibetan culture with the Han culture. But I'd definitely oppose it if there is one. Now, I think it's very lame of you to have intentionally made it out like it is mass killing by just saying 'genocide'. I hope you are capable of making a good argument without sensationalize and exergerating stuffs.

Now, don't keep going around the questions. What about making an attempt just for once to address directly the point (1) (2) and (3) above.

i have friends that have been there before. so it's not first hand experience. but it sounded like other parts of china. there are poor people, there are rich people. it really depends on who you talk to.

and i wouldn't bother to "convince" some of the posters here. "shun zhe chang, ni zhe wang" :D jk here. people can yap all they want, in the end, things will go the way it's supposed to. talk is cheap.

[longhornchampno]

i have friends that have been there before. so it's not first hand experience. but it sounded like other parts of china. there are poor people, there are rich people. it really depends on who you talk to.

and i wouldn't bother to "convince" some of the posters here. "shun zhe chang, ni zhe wang" :D jk here. people can yap all they want, in the end, things will go the way it's supposed to. talk is cheap.

I am not talking about wealth there. I think it's very nice to have been raising the living standard of the Tibetans there and make that region a part of the modernization process of your country. I give you guys credits for that. But it doesn't mean the Tibetans have to give up their culture in exchange for the wealth. For the minorities there, being Chinese citizens and being able to preserve their own culture is not mutually exclusive. Do you agree?

[longhornchampno]

I am not talking about wealth there. I think it's very nice to have been raising the living standard of the Tibetans there and make that region a part of the modernization process of your country. I give you guys credits for that. But it doesn't mean the Tibetans have to give up their culture in exchange for the wealth. For the minorities there, being Chinese citizens and being able to preserve their own culture is not mutually exclusive. Do you agree?

I meant "should not be mutually exclusive".

[yuantian]

I am not talking about wealth there. I think it's very nice to have been raising the living standard of the Tibetans there and make that region a part of the modernization process of your country. I give you guys credits for that. But it doesn't mean the Tibetans have to give up their culture in exchange for the wealth. For the minorities there, being Chinese citizens and being able to preserve their own culture is not mutually exclusive. Do you agree?

oh, i didn't really read carefully. was just commenting on the back and forth jabs with other posters. :D

however, for culture, there is absolutely no reason to preserve a culture completely, especially if it's outdated. just look back, all of the cultures today are differetn from the past. it will develop and change slowly, WILLINGLY or NOT. if you can adapt quickly to the changes, like china, you will be fine. if not, then you won't survive. i'm NOT saying to force culture changes at a fast pace or even at all, but you have to realize it's going to change no matter what. and the current trend is, western pop culture merged with domestic philosophy, religious, and such. in my view, by investing money in tibet, isn't "culture genocide". it's inevitible. globazliation = money. if not, you'll be dirt poor. chinese peole never willingly introduced western culture. it was forced upon china by the western countries.

[longhornchampno]

oh, i didn't really read carefully. was just commenting on the back and forth jabs with other posters. :D

however, for culture, there is absolutely no reason to preserve a culture completely, especially if it's outdated. just look back, all of the cultures today are differetn from the past. it will develop and change slowly, WILLINGLY or NOT. if you can adapt quickly to the changes, like china, you will be fine. if not, then you won't survive. i'm NOT saying to force culture changes at a fast pace or even at all, but you have to realize it's going to change no matter what. and the current trend is, western pop culture merged with domestic philosophy, religious, and such. in my view, by investing money in tibet, isn't "culture genocide". it's inevitible. globazliation = money. if not, you'll be dirt poor. chinese peole never willingly introduced western culture. it was forced upon china by the western countries.

I have admitted I have never been Tibet before so I do not have first hand experience about what's really happening there. I also do not want to draw my conclusion just based on what the media wants me to believe. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with natural assimilation. But I do have problem if there is really a concerted effort to replace the local culture there with the Han culture, like some people have claimed. That's racism in another form.

[yuantian]

I have admitted I have never been Tibet before so I do not have first hand experience about what's really happening there. I also do not want to draw my conclusion just based on what the media wants me to believe. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with natural assimilation. But I do have problem if there is really a concerted effort to replace the local culture there with the Han culture, like some people have claimed. That's racism in another form.

well, racism is hard to define. i am personality at least 2 chinese ethnic groups. obviously the main one, plus a very small one that has own culture, own region, even own religion. there are counties where majority are of that group only, same as some of the tibetan counties in other parts. people there are in remote areas, dirt poor. i mean, what can i say. even though, i'm mostly han, but people in my family who are closer to that group and their relatives, never complained racism. my cousins even have minority on their ID card, so they can get extra points in the exams. i mean, honestly, i felt much more racism in US than in China.

[yeo]

Letter submitted to South China Morning Post

Barry Sautman, Associate Professor of Social Science at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology

Protests in Tibet and Separatism: the Olympics and Beyond

Barry Sautman

The protests in Lhasa and other Tibetan areas last week were
organized to embarrass the Chinese government ahead of the Olympics.
The Tibetan Youth Congress (TYC), the major Tibetan exile organization
that advocates independence for Tibet and has endorsed the use of
violent methods to achieve it, has said as much. Its head, Tsewang
Rigzin, stated in a March 15 interview with the Chicago Tribune that
since it is likely that Chinese authorities would suppress protests in
Tibet, "With the spotlight on them with the Olympics, we want to test
them. We want them to show their true colors. That's why we're
pushing this."

Several groups of Tibetans were likely involved in the protests,
including in the burning and looting of non-Tibetan businesses and
physical attacks against migrants to Lhasa. The large monasteries have
long been centers of separatism, a stance cultivated by the TYC and
other exile entities. Monks are self-selected to be especially devoted
to the Dalai Lama. However much he may characterize his own position
as seeking only greater autonomy for Tibet, monks know he is unwilling
to recognize that Tibet is legitimately part of China, an act that
China demands of him as a precondition to formal negotiations.
Because the exile regime eschews a separation of politics and
religion, many monks adhere to the Dalai Lama's stance of
non-recognition of the Chinese government's legitimacy in Tibet as a
religious obligation.

Reports on the violence have underscored that Tibetan merchants
competing with Han and Hui Chinese are especially antagonistic to the
presence of non-Tibetans. Alongside monks, Tibetan merchants were the
mainstay of protests in Lhasa in the late 1980s and early 1990s. This
time around, many Han and Hui-owned shops were torched. Many of those
involved in the arson, looting, and ethnic-based beatings are also
likely to have been unemployed young men. Towns have experienced much
rural-to-urban migration of Tibetans with few skills needed for urban
employment. Videos of the riots in Lhasa showed almost all those
involved to have been males in their teens or twenties. In that
regard, the actions in Lhasa differed sharply from the broad-based
demonstrations of "people power" in places like Southeast Asia.

Tibetans have legitimate grievances about not being sufficiently
helped to compete for jobs and in business with migrants to Tibet.
There is also job discrimination by migrants in favor of family
members and people from their native places. The gaps in education and
living standards between Tibetans and Han are substantial and too slow
in narrowing. Raising these grievances however is a very different
matter from the calls for Tibet's independence that featured in last
week's demonstrations. The grievances have long existed, but the
protests and rioting took place this year because it is an opportune
time for separatists to advance their agenda.

While there is no chance that separatists will succeed in detaching
Tibet from China by rioting, they believe that China will eventually
collapse, like the former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, and they seek
to establish their claim to rule before that happens. Alternatively,
they think that the United States might intervene, as it has
elsewhere, to foster the breakaway of regions in countries to which
the US is antagonistic, e.g. Kosovo and southern Sudan. The Chinese
government also fears such eventualities, however much they are
unlikely to come to pass. It accordingly acts to suppress separatism,
an action that comports with its rights under international law.
International law also gives the Chinese government the right to
regulate religious institutions to prevent them from being used as
vehicles for separatism.

The separatists know they can count on the automatic sympathy of
Western politicians and media, who view China as a strategic economic
and political competitor. Western elites have thus widely condemned
China for suppressing riots that these elites would never allow to go
unsuppressed in their own countries. Witness, for example, the Los
Angeles riots of 1992, in which 53 people died. Western leaders urge
China to exercise restraint, but neither they, nor the Dalai Lama have
criticized those Tibetans who engaged in ethnic-based attacks and
arsons.

Western elites give the Chinese government no recognition for
significant improvements in the lives of Tibetans as a result of
subsidies from the China's central government and provinces,
improvements that the Dalai Lama has himself admitted. Western
politicians and media also consistently credit the Dalai Lama's charge
that "cultural genocide" is underway in Tibet, even though the exiles
and their supporters offer no credible evidence of the evisceration of
Tibetan language use, religious practice or art. In fact, more than
90% of Tibetans speak Tibetan as their mother tongue. Tibet has about
150,000 monks and nuns, the highest concentration of full-time
"clergy" in the Buddhist world. Western scholars of Tibetan
literature and art forms have attested that it is flourishing as never
before.

The riots in Tibet have done nothing to advance discussions of a
political settlement between the Chinese government and exiles, yet a
settlement is necessary for the substantial mitigation of Tibetan
grievances. For Tibetan pro-independence forces, a setback to such
efforts may have been their very purpose in fostering the riots.

[KaiSeR SoZe]

why dont they just let tibet be?

i mean why not?

[yuantian]

why dont they just let tibet be?

i mean why not?

why don't US just let Iraqis be?

i mean why not?

[Benjerin]

Let me show you guys some truth about what happened in Tibet. A group of Dalai Lama's monks and fellows ATTACKED civilians and police officer in Lahsar.
Look at those picture, if anyone could call that as a "peaceful" protest, well, what else i could say..Look at the shield on the right top, they even broke special armed police's shiled, omg!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2272/2337825379_12d6c008d5_o.jpg
They robbed equipments from police officers
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2174/2338661112_a99a6a62ac_o.jpg
the real peaceful one is militiary forcefeel so bad for them, what happen if protesters broke military's vehicles in U.S.?they wil open fire immediately!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3163/2337824849_f23a5f1049_o.jpg
They burned everything, i guess thats the "free" tibet would be look like
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2079/2338662082_c4fa9bccc7_o.jpg
Chaos everywhere
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2378/2337827831_fce0f9c3e2_o.jpg

[Benjerin]

more truth photos
Protester holding blades chasing cilvilians
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5715/80288096qs7.jpg
group of brutal "protesters" killing vivialians
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6383/80288039hp2.jpg
12minutes ago, 2 youngs were killed on this street when they were trying to get a taxi
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5517/23427587817f5d9cda89ph2.jpg
one of the them from killing above. his head...got chopped off...so peaceful !good job tibetan protester.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6895/234275886152c6ef3cedds6.jpg
another civilian got killed just on the street
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3442/234358736028d1b36141oin9.jpg
They also burned down the bus
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3442/234358736028d1b36141oin9.jpg
Dalai lama's fella making violence everywhere in the city, there r not enough police officer to stop them
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2261/2337825109_13e18e0e11_o.jpg

[Benjerin]

till now, there are more than 200 civilians dead and more and more wounded, 2 police officer dead, and 30s of them wounded. The chaos stil continued, if thats the way that CBC and ABC called as "protest".......

[KaiSeR SoZe]

why don't US just let Iraqis be?

i mean why not?

lol...we should

and so should china.

[langal]

says who? even the chinese government said, it's planned by the lama's followers. he doesn't need to organize it ok. they are all his followers, obviously that's a true statement. i don't think any of the posters suggested he himself directly planned everything out.


I think that's a pretty telling statement.

The Dalai Lama is admitting that there is violence and rioting going on. Not only does he admit it, he condemns it.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080318/D8VFQ2000.html

I have to give him some credit there. A lot of other people seem to still have their blinders on.

[michecon]

I don't care free whatever slogan, but reading newspapers like NYT make slight of the violence and telling only one side of the story just makes me scoff.

And this is a country who's supposedly fighting terrorism and supports Israelis whenever forever.

[langal]

lol...we should

and so should china.

I don't think using Iraq is a good point here. I would guess that most of the "anti" China people here were also against the Iraqi war.

I think if America truly wanted to set an example, they would cede more lands to the Native people who lived here before the European conquest. Gambling rights, reservations, and letters of apology aren't quite enough. At the very least, the US could cede several states over to the native tribes.

[langal]

I don't care free whatever slogan, but reading newspapers like NYT make slight of the violence and telling only one side of the story just makes me scoff.

And this is a country who's supposedly fighting terrorism and supports Israelis whenever forever.

Those pics are pretty disgusting but drive home the point.

I think the west, by and large, is not going to provide much fair coverage on this issue. China is an easy target (much justified) and this is one of the few emotional issues that both the "free tibet" liberals and "anti-commie" conservatives can agree on. You can be sure that if Yao were not injured, he would probably be getting booed quite a bit right now.

[Matchman]

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5517/23427587817f5d9cda89ph2.jpg
one of the them from killing above. his head...got chopped off...so peaceful !good job tibetan protester.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6895/234275886152c6ef3cedds6.jpg


QUOTE for emphasis on how "peaceful" these protesters were :rolleyes:

[SamFisher]

since we are sharing extremely graphic photos, here's a nice picture of PRC restraint

Monk shot through back of the head, execution style

GRAPHIC photo
http://i26.tinypic.com/o7vy86.jpg

[yeo]

since we are sharing extremely graphic photos, here's a nice picture of PRC restraint

Monk shot through back of the head, execution style

GRAPHIC photo
http://i26.tinypic.com/o7vy86.jpg

Even if that photo were real, Sam, doesn't it only prove that your "peace-loving non-violent" Tibetans are really no better than the Commies?

Besides, even if the police fired at rioters, and that's still a big if at this point, with no independent proof, aren't they just doing their job in protecting the life and property of law-abiding citizens? In the LA riots of 1992, eight rioters were shot by law enforcement and two by National Guardsmen.

As Professor Sautman pointed out in his article above:

"Western elites have thus widely condemned China for suppressing riots that these elites would never allow to go unsuppressed in their own countries."

[SamFisher]

Even if that photo were real, Sam, doesn't it only prove that your "peace-loving non-violent" Tibetans are really no better than the Commies?

Besides, even if the police fired at rioters, and that's still a big if at this point, with no independent proof, aren't they just doing their job in protecting the life and property of law-abiding citizens? In the LA riots of 1992, eight rioters were shot by law enforcement and two by National Guardsmen.

As Professor Sautman pointed out in his article above:

"Western elites have thus widely condemned China for suppressing riots that these elites would never allow to go unsuppressed in their own countries."

I wonder if they sent a bill for the bullet to the monastery after they executed the monk in the photo - a classy, traditional touch of the CCP.

[bigtexxx]

since we are sharing extremely graphic photos, here's a nice picture of PRC restraint

Monk shot through back of the head, execution style

GRAPHIC photo
http://i26.tinypic.com/o7vy86.jpg

Wow, that is awful. Sam, I stand next to you in condemning this act.

[wnes]

I wonder if they sent a bill for the bullet to the monastery after they executed the monk in the photo - a classy, traditional touch of the CCP.

Typical nonsense Sammy Fish reply to a pointed question.

Now to your wonder, I say it is not much different from funding this country's law enforcement by taxing the general public, including those that were executed in gas chambers and on *Old Sparky*.

[SamFisher]

Typical nonsense Sammy Fish reply to a pointed question.

Now to your wonder, I say it is not much different from funding this country's law enforcement by taxing the general public, including those that were executed in gas chambers and on *Old Sparky*.


See - this is the difference between you and me - we should close all of our death chambers, in my opinion.

I am not afraid to admit that the US is wrong on that, and should cease it, immediately.

As for you - it's PRC, right or wrong, all tibetans are evildoers and anybody who was shot deserved it (or the photo was doctored or whatever).

You, here in your adopted country, will freely exercise your rights to criticize, criticize, criticize americans of every political persuasion, in vile insulting terms - then the second anybody says anything about China, you fly off the handle and go insane, and lecture us about how chinese aren't mature enough handle democracy and backwards feudal tibetans and blah blah blah.

If we suck so much why do you live here? What makes you so superior to your backward mainland country bumpkins who you left behind so that you are entitled to participate in a political process and they are not? What makes you superior to us in that you can comment on the US politics but we can't comment on anything else?

I would ask you what makes you superior to Tibetans but we have already heard your answer on that a thousand times, they are backwards feudalists, blah blah blah.

You try to claim solidarity with the average PRC'er in the street, yet your air of superiority betrays you, my friend. You're like Mitt Romney claiming to hunt varmints.

[KingCheetah]

Tough times for China right now ~ economy is starting to flounder, high levels of pollution, and now the massacre in Tibet.

How long until we start seeing Olympic boycotts?

[langal]

See - this is the difference between you and me - we should close all of our death chambers, in my opinion.

I am not afraid to admit that the US is wrong on that, and should cease it, immediately.

As for you - it's PRC, right or wrong, all tibetans are evildoers and anybody who was shot deserved it (or the photo was doctored or whatever).

You, here in your adopted country, will freely exercise your rights to criticize, criticize, criticize americans of every political persuasion, in vile insulting terms - then the second anybody says anything about China, you fly off the handle and go insane, and lecture us about how chinese aren't mature enough handle democracy and backwards feudal tibetans and blah blah blah.

If we suck so much why do you live here? What makes you so superior to your backward mainland country bumpkins who you left behind so that you are entitled to participate in a political process and they are not? What makes you superior to us in that you can comment on the US politics but we can't comment on anything else?

I would ask you what makes you superior to Tibetans but we have already heard your answer on that a thousand times, they are backwards feudalists, blah blah blah.

You try to claim solidarity with the average PRC'er in the street, yet your air of superiority betrays you, my friend. You're like Mitt Romney claiming to hunt varmints.

I don't think wnes claimed at anytime that all Tibetans are evildoers and should be shot. Likewise, no one here is pro-genocide. A lot of us just believe that the rioters in Tibet are wrong and that the Western media is not really giving us a balanced view of things. I doubt the the state-run Chinese media is either. BTW- the Dalai Lama has even condemned the rioters and threatened resignation if they don't cease. That is a pretty strong threat.

[yeo]

Tourists speak of shock and fear at Tibet riots, London Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3578941.ece)

“I agree that the Tibetans have their own culture, but I can't agree with what people did. After a while, it was not about Tibetan freedom any more.”

[real_egal]

Tough times for China right now ~ economy is starting to flounder, high levels of pollution, and now the massacre in Tibet.

How long until we start seeing Olympic boycotts?

The economy and stock market will not rise at same acceleration rate forever. The pause and correction will only help it grow healthier. With the pressure of inflation, it's a good opportunity and challenge for the government to deal with polarization in China, also transform from manufacture to service-oriented, and invest more in technology. Meanwhile, the government should pass tougher environment laws and make local government to enforce those laws more strictly. It will benefit all Chinese.

As for the massacre in Tibet now as you mentioned, committed by rioters to other Chinese in the name of "religious freedom" or "free Tibet", I think the majority of Chinese including Tibetan Chinese will punish those criminals according to law.

I don't think Chinese government is able to gain any money from such event like Olympics, especially after they announced to provide free traval, accommodation, and food for all participants in special Olympics. If US is boycotting the Olympics, a large chunk of the money can be saved, to improve environment. Yao Ming could actually have a chance for a bronze medal. Please take the leadership to start such petition.

[foofy]

since we are sharing extremely graphic photos, here's a nice picture of PRC restraint

Monk shot through back of the head, execution style

GRAPHIC photo
http://i26.tinypic.com/o7vy86.jpg

Hey Sam, look at the real execution style. The hole cannot be that small.

http://bbs2.people.com.cn/bbs/ReadFile?whichfile=38897&typeid=93

[Ottomaton]

Hey Sam, look at the real execution style. The hole cannot be that small.


Sam's photo is pretty much a perfect example of what an entry wound from a handgun into soft tissue looks like.

[SamFisher]

[QUOTE=foofy]Hey Sam, look at the real execution style. The hole cannot be that small.

Sam's photo is pretty much a perfect example of what an entry wound into soft tissue looks like.
http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/33/88/0000043388_20070924154814.jpg
Horatio Caine: Well, Frank, you know what they say
*puts on suglasses
Better red...or better dead.

YEEEEEEEAHHHHHHHHHHHHOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!

[foofy]

I don't mean to be rude, but your comments read like a bit of a non-sequitur. I don't understand what you are trying to say. Kurdis? I don't know what that is. I even Googled it thinking I must be missing something obvious, but no luck. Do you mean Kurdish? or Kurtis?


My bad. I thought you was Turk.

Free Willy!

[foofy]

Sam's photo is pretty much a perfect example of what an entry wound from a handgun into soft tissue looks like.

handgun?!! :D

Why not targeted on head if this is execution style?

[wnes]

See - this is the difference between you and me - we should close all of our death chambers, in my opinion.

I am not afraid to admit that the US is wrong on that, and should cease it, immediately.

As for you - it's PRC, right or wrong, all tibetans are evildoers and anybody who was shot deserved it (or the photo was doctored or whatever).

You, here in your adopted country, will freely exercise your rights to criticize, criticize, criticize americans of every political persuasion, in vile insulting terms - then the second anybody says anything about China, you fly off the handle and go insane, and lecture us about how chinese aren't mature enough handle democracy and backwards feudal tibetans and blah blah blah.

If we suck so much why do you live here? What makes you so superior to your backward mainland country bumpkins who you left behind so that you are entitled to participate in a political process and they are not? What makes you superior to us in that you can comment on the US politics but we can't comment on anything else?

I would ask you what makes you superior to Tibetans but we have already heard your answer on that a thousand times, they are backwards feudalists, blah blah blah.

You try to claim solidarity with the average PRC'er in the street, yet your air of superiority betrays you, my friend. You're like Mitt Romney claiming to hunt varmints.

Way to misrepresent, distort, and generalize, Sammy.

I never said all Tibetans are evildoers, but I maintain those extreme and violent fanatic Dalai Lama supporters are criminals and deserve to be dealt with justly.

I don't know if I am truly freely exercising my rights to comment on US politics, world affairs, or anything else on an internet bbs. For one, this board is censored, whether you admit it or not. Second, internet on the whole is being monitored. The difference between freedom of speech and freedom after speech apparently is lost on you.

There are plenty of things going on in PRC that need and should be criticized. I am not blind to my birth country's shortcomings and wrong doings. But the way China is portrayed in the mainstream U.S. media is virtually nothing but negative, this is what I have my problem with. As someone who has traveled extensively to China and claimed to have studied Chinese history, you are supposed to be a person who understands a thing or two about China that has evolved in the last thirty years, that it has made tremendous progresses in many areas, despite lagging in others compared to more developed countries. Yet all your China-related posts, filled with bias and hatred, carry an anti-China agenda.

Sure I have bashed many U.S. politicians over the years but I also have defended and supported a number of others. The same can't be said about you when you are on the topic of China. Further, I maintain a consistent stance on all the issues I debate, including favoring racial integration, territorial integrity of a sovereign nation, progressive economic and social policies, non-interventionist foreign policies, fair journalism, and not favoring protectionism, fundamentalist religions, etc.

You, on the other hand, are all over the map. You are against Bush's war in Iraq and in supportive of U.S. imperialism elsewhere at other times. As a non-religious liberal, you are (I assume) not fond of slavery of blacks in the U.S. and fundamentalist clergies and politicians, yet you are such an oozy defender of Dalai Lama and his old theocratic Tibetan regime and his pursuit of "racial purity of Tibet."

There is only one explanation to your conflicting stance, Fish, you are a nothing but hypocritical, hateful, racist Sinophobe in a small pond known as Clutchfans.net.

[Ottomaton]

handgun?!! :D


My understanding is that if you are hit with bullets from a military/police type modern high velocity medium caliber rifle there is usually significant and noticeable damage to the tissue around the point of entry. I can't confirm this from personal experience, fortunately, but that is my understanding.

I didn't say it was execution style, either. But now that you mention it, I remember reading that at one point the US Mafia used to do executions using a silenced .22 to the base of the neck at the back. The choice of location severed the spinal cord just below the brain stem, so it killed you as effectively or more effectively than a shot to the cerebrum (see Phineas Gage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage)) without sending 'raspberry jelly' all over the place like an explosively shattered skull would do (see John F. Kennedy (http://www.jfklancer.com/pub/md/jfk03clr.JPG)).

[RocketsDream]

Tough times for China right now ~ economy is starting to flounder, high levels of pollution, and now the massacre in Tibet.

How long until we start seeing Olympic boycotts?

Well, looks like you are in a celebration mood when you wrote that post. :)

Let me tell you my friend, first of all, you do not want China's economy to fail because other parts of the world will feel the effects too.

Secondly, if you really wish the China's economy to fail eventually, you should hope for it to keep growing at a astonishing rate like in the last 15 years. Believe it or not, stepping on the brake now (which is what the Chinese government has been trying to do) is actually good for the long term health of their economy. Their government has actually played a significant role in cooling down their economy and the stock market by sending their influential officials to 'comment' on the prospect of the stock market from time to time.

Read more about what's actually happening in Asia. It helps.

[lalala902102001]

Where's Hiltler's policy adviser against the Jews when you need him?








j/k...this is aweful

[onssoo]

n.

about the truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=L6XD5A7-Fqg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas

[yeo]

about the truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=L6XD5A7-Fqg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas


Great job on the second one, an indictment on the hypocrisy of the Western media. I guess doctored and misleading pictures are not limited to just CNN.

[DaRock1]

Where's Hiltler's policy adviser against the Jews when you need him?


Don't try to compare the Holocaust to what's happens in Tibet. Please show some respect to the Jews victims.

[MFW]

See - this is the difference between you and me - we should close all of our death chambers, in my opinion.

I am not afraid to admit that the US is wrong on that, and should cease it, immediately.

As for you - it's PRC, right or wrong, all tibetans are evildoers and anybody who was shot deserved it (or the photo was doctored or whatever).

You, here in your adopted country, will freely exercise your rights to criticize, criticize, criticize americans of every political persuasion, in vile insulting terms - then the second anybody says anything about China, you fly off the handle and go insane, and lecture us about how chinese aren't mature enough handle democracy and backwards feudal tibetans and blah blah blah.

If we suck so much why do you live here? What makes you so superior to your backward mainland country bumpkins who you left behind so that you are entitled to participate in a political process and they are not? What makes you superior to us in that you can comment on the US politics but we can't comment on anything else?

I would ask you what makes you superior to Tibetans but we have already heard your answer on that a thousand times, they are backwards feudalists, blah blah blah.

You try to claim solidarity with the average PRC'er in the street, yet your air of superiority betrays you, my friend. You're like Mitt Romney claiming to hunt varmints.

Atta boy, Sammy. Rose coloured glasses huh? Pot calling kettle black more like it.

I am not going to argue whether that photo is doctored, because it doesn't matter.

You don't know jack with regards to the circumstance surrounding that alleged monk's death. Quite frankly, you don't know if he was attacking an ethnic Han/Muslim civilian/police, and was shot after repeated warnings, including a warning shot, fired in self defense.

On the other hand, Tibetans cutting ethnic Han's head off is pretty damning. It is illegal no matter how you are gonna try to spin it.

[SamFisher]

On the other hand, Tibetans cutting ethnic Han's head off is pretty damning. It is illegal no matter how you are gonna try to spin it.

lol - so one was obviously a staged photograph taken out of context, and the other is obviously unvarnished raw truth.

Oh - and it just happens to be the side that you agree with.

SHOCKING. I am gasping for breath like a marathon runner in bejing.

[KaiSeR SoZe]

lol - so one was obviously a staged photograph taken out of context, and the other is obviously unvarnished raw truth.

Oh - and it just happens to be the side that you agree with.

very convenient...lol

[WNBA]

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uSQnK5FcKas&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uSQnK5FcKas&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[WNBA]

<object width="425" height="1355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uSQnK5FcKas&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uSQnK5FcKas&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[MFW]

lol - so one was obviously a staged photograph taken out of context, and the other is obviously unvarnished raw truth.

Oh - and it just happens to be the side that you agree with.

SHOCKING. I am gasping for breath like a marathon runner in bejing.

Really Sammy? You have problems with those photos right? Take out those several photos altogether for a second. I see videos, from none Chinese sources, of Tibetans beating ethnic Hans with clubs, sticks and knifes. They're all over the internet, you'd be interested to know that peaceful monks participates as well.

So what is the excuse for that I might ask? Let me guess, an ethnic Han rushed into a Tibetan crowd to attack them, then the Tibetan crowd retaliated in self defense right? Just making sure.

[Ottomaton]

You don't know jack with regards to the circumstance surrounding that alleged monk's death. Quite frankly, you don't know if he was attacking an ethnic Han/Muslim civilian/police, and was shot after repeated warnings, including a warning shot, fired in self defense.


I would be intrigued to learn exactly how you shoot someone in the back in self defense. Please explain that, if you would. I can come up with a couple of possible scenarios, but they are so absurd as to defy reason.

[MFW]

I would be intregued to learn exactly how you shoot someone in the back in self defense. Please explain that, if you would.

Let's see. 50 police surrounded by couple hundred rioters. One getting beaten down to his death, another fires to save his life.

PS. We're not even sure if the bullet penetrated the neck and made it out the other side.

Happens all over the world, except in China of course.

[yuantian]

I would be intrigued to learn exactly how you shoot someone in the back in self defense. Please explain that, if you would. I can come up with a couple of possible scenarios, but they are so absurd as to defy reason.

how the hell can you control where your shot is going when there is a freaking mob charging at you with big knives and throwing rocks at you? i would be ****ty in my pants already. maybe just so that one person turned his back and got unlucky. i mean, some of you are getting so ridiculous. if you think that some of the posters are blind, just watch. the more people like you, the more extreme youth there will be in China.

[cute_bear]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23629811/

Report: Two dead as Tibet protests turn violent
China blames Dalai Lama as police fire on crowds in Lhasa led by monks

MSNBC News Services
updated 26 minutes ago
BEIJING - Protests led by Buddhist monks against Chinese rule in Tibet turned violent Friday, with shops and vehicles torched and gunshots echoing in the streets of the ancient capital, Lhasa.

A radio report said two people had been killed, while China blamed the disturbances on followers of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled Buddhist leader.

The Dalai Lama on Friday called the demonstrations "a manifestation of the deep-rooted resentment of the Tibetan people" and called upon China to stop using force during protests. In a statement, the Dalai Lama said he was "deeply concerned over the situation that has been developing in Tibet following peaceful protests."

The largest demonstrations in nearly two decades against Beijing's 57-year-rule over Tibet come at a critically sensitive time for China as it attempts to portray a unified and prosperous nation ahead of the Olympic Games in August.

U.S. government-funded Radio Free Asia said troops using both live ammunition and tear gas fired on crowds torching vehicles and Chinese-owned shops in the center of the ancient capital of Lhasa. It said two people were killed, while other reports put the death toll higher but gave no figures.

The U.S. State Department urged Chinese leaders to engage in dialogue with the Dalai Lama. The European Union also called on China to show restraint.

The protests that began on Monday's anniversary of a 1959 uprising against Chinese rule were initially led by hundreds of Buddhist monks — but then attracted large numbers of ordinary Tibetans. They were also spreading to Tibetan areas outside Lhasa, a city of about 250,000 permanent residents, not including large numbers of soldiers and members of the paramilitary People's Armed Police.

Witnesses reported hearing gunfire and seeing vehicles in flames in the city's main Barkor shopping district in the center of Lhasa. Crowds hurled rocks at security forces and at restaurant and hotel windows.

'Chaos everywhere'
"It was chaos everywhere. I could see fires, smoke, cars and motorcycles burning," said a Tibetan guide who spoke on condition his name not be used, fearing retaliation by authorities. He said the whole road in the main Barkor shopping area surrounding the Jokhang temple "seemed to be on fire."

The guide said armed police in riot gear backed by armored vehicles were blocking major intersections in the city center, along with the broad square in front of the Potala, the former winter home of the Dalai Lama.

"As I approached Potala Square, I heard cannon fire, louder than rifles. Others told me police were firing tear gas along Beijing Zhonglu, west of the Potala," he said.

Up to 400 protesters, including students, had gathered around a market near the Jokhang temple early on Friday and were confronted by about 1,000 police, according to a witness cited by Matt Whitticase of the Free Tibet Campaign in London.

Four police were injured, and another protest break out near the Potala Palace, Whitticase added.

Shops were set on fire along two main streets surrounding the Jokhang temple, Ramoche monastery, and the city's main Chomsigkang market, sending out heavy smoke.

'Chaos everywhere'
"It was chaos everywhere. I could see fires, smoke, cars and motorcycles burning," said a Tibetan guide who spoke on condition his name not be used, fearing retaliation by authorities. He said the whole road in the main Barkor shopping area surrounding the Jokhang temple "seemed to be on fire."

The guide said armed police in riot gear backed by armored vehicles were blocking major intersections in the city center, along with the broad square in front of the Potala, the former winter home of the Dalai Lama.

"As I approached Potala Square, I heard cannon fire, louder than rifles. Others told me police were firing tear gas along Beijing Zhonglu, west of the Potala," he said.

Up to 400 protesters, including students, had gathered around a market near the Jokhang temple early on Friday and were confronted by about 1,000 police, according to a witness cited by Matt Whitticase of the Free Tibet Campaign in London.

Four police were injured, and another protest break out near the Potala Palace, Whitticase added.

Shops were set on fire along two main streets surrounding the Jokhang temple, Ramoche monastery, and the city's main Chomsigkang market, sending out heavy smoke.

'Chaos everywhere'
"It was chaos everywhere. I could see fires, smoke, cars and motorcycles burning," said a Tibetan guide who spoke on condition his name not be used, fearing retaliation by authorities. He said the whole road in the main Barkor shopping area surrounding the Jokhang temple "seemed to be on fire."

The guide said armed police in riot gear backed by armored vehicles were blocking major intersections in the city center, along with the broad square in front of the Potala, the former winter home of the Dalai Lama.

"As I approached Potala Square, I heard cannon fire, louder than rifles. Others told me police were firing tear gas along Beijing Zhonglu, west of the Potala," he said.

Up to 400 protesters, including students, had gathered around a market near the Jokhang temple early on Friday and were confronted by about 1,000 police, according to a witness cited by Matt Whitticase of the Free Tibet Campaign in London.

Four police were injured, and another protest break out near the Potala Palace, Whitticase added.

Shops were set on fire along two main streets surrounding the Jokhang temple, Ramoche monastery, and the city's main Chomsigkang market, sending out heavy smoke.

A Western traveler using the name "John" told BBC World television that police had attacked monks near monasteries and said he saw military convoys moving into Lhasa carrying heavily armed troops.

In a terse report, China's official Xinhua News Agency said people had been hospitalized with injuries and vehicles and shops torched, but gave few details.

Tensions in the Tibetan capital have risen in recent days as the city's three biggest monasteries were sealed off by thousands of soldiers and police in a government crackdown, the U.S. government-funded Radio Free Asia reported Friday.

The U.S. Embassy e-mailed an advisory to Americans warning them to stay away from Lhasa. The embassy said it had "received firsthand reports from American citizens in the city who report gunfire and other indications of violence."

In Washington, White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said, "Beijing needs to respect Tibetan culture. Needs to respect multi-ethnicity in their society. We regret the tensions between the ethnic groups and Beijing. The president has said consistently that Beijing needs to have a dialogue with the Dalai Lama."

European Union leaders appealed to China to show restraint, and France's foreign minister said Paris was keeping its options open on whether to take further measures, possibly relating to the Olympics.
Hotels in Lhasa were placed under lockdown at noon, said a hotel worker in the city.

"No one has been allowed to leave the hotel, as protesters on Beijing Dong Road have turned violent ... we can hear shouting and a loud commotion outside, but cannot even look outside the windows to see what is happening outside, because they will throw rocks at us if they see us," said the worker, who did not want her name used or her hotel identified for fear of harassment by authorities.

It is extremely difficult to get independent verification of events in Tibet since China maintains rigid control over the area. Foreigners need special travel permits, and journalists are rarely granted access except under highly controlled circumstances.

Communist forces invaded Tibet in 1950, hoping to reclaim a part of China's former empire and command the strategic heights overlooking rival India. In recent decades, China has methodically begun exploiting the region's timber and mineral wealth.

Heavy-handed rule
Beijing rules the region with a heavy hand, enforcing strict controls on religious institutions and routinely vilifies the Dalai Lama, winner of the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize who fled to India amid the 1959 rebellion.

Tibetans inside and outside the country have sought to use the Olympic Games' high profile to call attention to their cause.

Beijing has accused the Dalai Lama -- whom many Tibetans consider their rightful ruler -- of trying to sabotage the games.

The protests are a stunning show of defiance for Tibetan monks who are usually closely monitored by Chinese officials.

On Thursday, monks in Lhasa started a hunger strike and two attempted suicide as troops surrounded monasteries in a government crackdown on the widespread protests, RFA said.

They are believed to be the largest demonstrations in the city since Beijing crushed a wave of pro-independence demonstrations in 1989. Since then, China has pumped investment into the region amd tried to weed out supporters of the Dalai Lama among the influential Buddhist clergy.

Protesters detained in India
Beijing maintains that Tibet is historically part of China. But many Tibetans argue the Himalayan region was virtually independent for centuries and accuse China of trying to crush Tibetan culture by swamping it with Han people, the majority Chinese ethnic group.

Elsewhere, organizers said more than 100 Tibetan exiles began two weeks of detention in northern India Friday after police arrested them during a march to their homeland to protest China's hosting of the Olympic Games.

March coordinator Tenzin Palkyi said the exiles are being kept in detention in a state-run hotel while authorities investigate charges they threatened the "peace and tranquility" of the region.
as far as i know, the western media have been devilizing china and chinese~
especially this time. i found all media are disgusting, only reporting whatever they wanna report, and even faking the news

[longhornchampno]

If anything, this thread has shown that whoever forms his/her opinion on what's happening in the other side of the world based on what the media wants him/her to believe is an idiot.

[Ottomaton]

how the hell can you control where your shot is going when there is a freaking mob charging at you with big knives and throwing rocks at you? i would be ****ty in my pants already. maybe just so that one person turned his back and got unlucky. i mean, some of you are getting so ridiculous. if you think that some of the posters are blind, just watch. the more people like you, the more extreme youth there will be in China.

Walk into any police station, anywhere in the world, and tell them that you have a body with you which you shot in the back in self defense. See how well that goes for you.

If you shoot at a group that is coming at you and you miss and hit some guy facing the other way, that isn't self defense. That is an accidental shooting. Police officers who found themselves in such a situation in most of the world would at least face a board of inquiry for such a thing. I’m not applying a standard here that I wouldn’t apply to an American, Russian, French, Zimbabwean, or Venezuelan police officer.

Self defense = defending yourself from someone that is an immediate threat to you, hence the two part name: (1.)self (2.)defense. If a Police Officer in the LA Riots which you Chinese posters are so fond of had shot anybody in the back, I would expect them to see a grand jury. Google 'police shoot back' and you'll find 3,320,000 hits for articles about police being prosecuted or suspended pending examination after such a shooting.

I think you are actually the one applying a double standard here, where nothing that China does in suppressing Tibet can in any way be questioned. If the USA police did any of these things, I sure as hell would be all over them. I have no double standard. I expect the same basic standards for police behavior everywhere in the world.

The more extreme Chinese nationalists like you, the more extreme youth there will be in Tibet.

[WNBA]

now Tibetans got their attention and their bloody request was denied firmly again.

what's next? can they buy US army to fight for them?
what's next? More whinning to CNN?
what's next? Riot again? does it help?


and for God's sake,
Why would China give up Tibet after their 60-year reign?

because they are going to be scared by your protests, riots, kindapping Olympics?

stop kidding.

The riot is not for freedom, it was for anti-China. period.
they are tools.

[namo]

Walk into any police station, anywhere in the world, and tell them that you have a body with you which you shot in the back in self defense. See how well that goes for you.

Dont confuse self defense with law enforcement. You don't really expect to walk away free after killing and looting, right?

[SunsRocketsfan]

There's just well, one thing wrong with that...

Western media isin't controlled by a gouvernment that loves censure.

Just sayin. :)

in a way they are... they are all controlled by special interest groups. you can clearly see how the media here in the states is very liberal leaning. CNN, ABC, NBC are all very left and socialistic in nature. Fox on the other hand is more republican and right leaning altho in my opinion still very social in their views. you can clearly see the bias in the news from these stations Fox played Obama's pastor scandal 24 hrs straight while CNN barely gave it a blurb.

[Ottomaton]

Dont confuse self defense with law enforcement. You don't really expect to walk away free after killing and looting, right?

I expect people shot by the police to be imminently threatening the life of the police. Otherwise, I expect the police to arrest the people breaking the law in order that they might face trial. Police are not judges. Police are not executioners. This is an example of a universally applied standard. If the police in the USA shot people that they believed were guilty of a crime instead of arresting them, I would be upset with American police, too.

[longhornchampno]

If anything, this thread has shown that whoever forms his/her opinion on what's happening in the other side of the world based on what the media wants him/her to believe is an idiot.

I forgot to say it also includes the ones who form their opinion based on a few pictures on the internet when there is no way to confirm the source and genuinity of the pictures. You may also never know whether the pictures have been doctored or not.

[MFW]

Walk into any police station, anywhere in the world, and tell them that you have a body with you which you shot in the back in self defense. See how well that goes for you.

If you shoot at a group that is coming at you and you miss and hit some guy facing the other way, that isn't self defense. That is an accidental shooting. Police officers who found themselves in such a situation in most of the world would at least face a board of inquiry for such a thing. I’m not applying a standard here that I wouldn’t apply to an American, Russian, French, Zimbabwean, or Venezuelan police officer.

Self defense = defending yourself from someone that is an immediate threat to you, hence the two part name: (1.)self (2.)defense. If a Police Officer in the LA Riots which you Chinese posters are so fond of had shot anybody in the back, I would expect them to see a grand jury. Google 'police shoot back' and you'll find 3,320,000 hits for articles about police being prosecuted or suspended pending examination after such a shooting.

I think you are actually the one applying a double standard here, where nothing that China does in suppressing Tibet can in any way be questioned. If the USA police did any of these things, I sure as hell would be all over them. I have no double standard. I expect the same basic standards for police behavior everywhere in the world.

The more extreme Chinese nationalists like you, the more extreme youth there will be in Tibet.

You know what your problem is? You give a guise of fairness and objectivity when your opinions are slanted to begin with. I myself, like all people, have bias, but at least I don't pretend differently.

People/courts/the judicial system should ask questions on why a guy is shot in the back right? I agree 100%. The thing you didn't mention is that people/courts/the judicial system would also ask questions on WHY and UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCE was a guy shot in the back, neither of which were provided by Sammy Fisher.

In fact, in your original post, you expressed disbelief that this could have happened in any other way other than police brutality/massacre, incredulous at the absurdity that it may in fact, be a non-premeditated self defense. By the way, law enforcement IS allowed to use force if they are being threatened.

Not that I am making such an assertion, but your expression shows typical denial.

[liberty]

Let the truth be told!


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[Ottomaton]

In fact, in your original post, you expressed disbelief that this could have happened in any other way other than police brutality/massacre, incredulous at the absurdity that it may in fact, be a non-premeditated self defense. By the way, law enforcement IS allowed to use force if they are being threatened.


I still can't come up with a plausible way to threaten someone behind you. Maybe if you have an Olympic discus that you are going to throw at their head and they are spinning into the classical windup form. Perhaps he was planning to ignite the fuse on a 19th century cannon by igniting his flatulence. These are both unlikely, but would be sufficient cause to shoot someone in the back.

And I never said it was or had to be part of a massacre. If you really think I did, could you find the quote? I do think if this guy was shot in the back, most police would consider that enough to require investigation to figure out why. Most police would operate on the assumption that it wasn't self defense until they had coherent facts why it was. And that is the position I take. It is a highly suspect wound that requires explanation.

If it is indeed a wound to the back of a monk that occurred as a part of the ongoing Tibet riots, then there is an appearance of inappropriate police conduct that needs to be examined. That is my position. It is my perception that several posters where attempting to say that shooting someone in the back by the Chinese police during the riots is no big deal and was not worthy of further examination. That is not a comforting thought to me.

[MFW]

I still can't come up with a plausible way to threaten someone behind you. Maybe if you have an Olympic discus that you are going to throw at their head and they are spinning into the classical windup form. Perhaps he was planning to ignite the fuse on a 19th century cannon by igniting his flatulence. These are both unlikely, but would be sufficient cause to shoot someone in the back.


Like I said, law enforcement is entitled to fire if fellow police officers are threatened. The case is true pretty much anywhere.


And I never said it was or had to be part of a massacre. If you really think I did, could you find the quote? I do think if this guy was shot in the back, most police would consider that enough to require investigation to figure out why. Most police would operate on the assumption that it wasn't self defense until they had coherent facts why it was. And that is the position I take. It is a highly suspect wound that requires explanation.

If it is indeed a wound to the back of a monk that occurred as a part of the ongoing Tibet riots, then there is an appearance of inappropriate police conduct that needs to be examined. That is my position. It is my perception that several posters where attempting to say that shooting someone in the back by the Chinese police during the riots is no big deal and was not worthy of further examination. That is not a comforting thought to me.

Where do you see anywhere, proof that police are not/will not investigate the incident? In fact, where do you see any motivation/stories/facts pertaining the issue?

Here is what I saw, I saw Sammy Fisher, in his usual potshot taking methods, crawled out from under the woodworks, presented a picture with which no explanations are attached.

The whole mess started with Benjerin the pictures of violence committed by Tibetans (I didn't know that wasn't allowed) along with his explanations behind it. If there was anything of which you felt the need to challenge, you and Sammy were privy to do so.

Instead, he posted a picture, alleging police brutality, when the whole situation surrounding it is shroud in mystery. Why is it that didn't ask him to provide those circumstance prior to asking for an explanation of police brutality?

[Ottomaton]

4Instead, he posted a picture, alleging police brutality, when the whole situation surrounding it is shroud in mystery. Why is it that didn't ask him to provide those circumstance prior to asking for an explanation of police brutality?

Specifically, I entered the discussion in response to:

Hey Sam, look at the real execution style. The hole cannot be that small.


The poster flatly ruled out an assassination. If the posters had said, well, that is a gunshot wound to the head, but we don't know anything about it and we need more information about where it came from and when it happened... if that had been the post responding to Sam's photo, I never would have entered this thread after Sam's post.

[RocketsDream]

Specifically, I entered the discussion in response to:



The poster flatly ruled out an assassination. If the posters had said, well, that is a gunshot wound to the head, but we don't know anything about it and we need more information about where it came from and when it happened... if that had been the post responding to Sam's photo, I never would have entered this thread after Sam's post.

I hear you. Based on the same logic, why didn't you enter the discussion when Sam said it was an 'execution'? You could have lectured Sam "that is a gunshot wound to the head, but we don't know anything about it and we need more information about where it came from and when it happened", just like how you have lectured the other poster should say his opinion. Any reason?

[newplayer]

Walk into any police station, anywhere in the world, and tell them that you have a body with you which you shot in the back in self defense. See how well that goes for you.


wait a minute, i could be wrong about this, but wasn't there a thread here a while ago about a man in ameican who shot dead 2 mexican guys who broke into his neighbor's house while they were fleeing? didn't the american court set him free?

[real_egal]

wait a minute, i could be wrong about this, but wasn't there a thread here a while ago about a man in ameican who shot dead 2 mexican guys who broke into his neighbor's house while they were fleeing? didn't the american court set him free?

2 US Air Marshalls shot a bipolar person from the back, while the poor sick man was running away from the plan.

Of course, that's not important. When talking about China or Chinese, there is no limit in the dirty tricks you can pull. A photo of a dead person, Chinese or not, can be claimed peaceful monk shot by Chinese police. But I would never be surprised by such characters, one of them claimed it's a well known fact that people from China are racists against blacks. That's how shameless they are. Stop trying to reason with them.

[Deckard]

Yes, we are definitely in The Twilight Zone.



Impeach Bush.

[yuantian]

Yes, we are definitely in The Twilight Zone.



Impeach Bush.

lol, people are sick of arguing. not much news being updated. we'll see in a few days. i'm going to ask around when i go to china in a few months. see how people feel there.

[rocketsjudoka]

I find the general tone of this thread to be sickening and sad. As I've said repeatedly before there is a very reasonable answer to all of this and that is for the PRC to agree to work with the Dalai Lama who has already offered what the PRC most wants, that Tibet remains part of the PRC. Instead the PRC is more interested in demonizing the Dalai Lama.

There is no denying that there is violence being committed by Tibetans but consider that since the PRC entered Tibet there has only been about 3 mass incidents of rioting. Compare that to the Palestinian Territories, Northern Ireland or any other conflict regarding an occupation. What has happened in the past week in Tibet while tragic pales in comparison to what happened in during the height of the Intifada or during the height of the unrest of Northern Ireland. Consider though where Tibet might be without a leader like the Dalai Lama insisting on nonviolence compared to if they were led by someone like Arafat.

IMO the PRC continues to pass up on a golden opportunity to settle the Tibet issue reasonably. By continuing to demonize and marginalize the Dalai Lama they are only guarenteeing that more radical leaders will take his place.

[rocketsjudoka]

2 US Air Marshalls shot a bipolar person from the back, while the poor sick man was running away from the plan.

Of course, that's not important. When talking about China or Chinese, there is no limit in the dirty tricks you can pull. A photo of a dead person, Chinese or not, can be claimed peaceful monk shot by Chinese police. But I would never be surprised by such characters, one of them claimed it's a well known fact that people from China are racists against blacks. That's how shameless they are. Stop trying to reason with them.

I don't think the anyone denies the US does terrible things. One of the reaons why today throughout the US there have been protests by US citizens against the US government. None of that excuses what the PRC or any other government does.

[Ottomaton]

wait a minute, i could be wrong about this, but wasn't there a thread here a while ago about a man in ameican who shot dead 2 mexican guys who broke into his neighbor's house while they were fleeing? didn't the american court set him free?

First, IMO he should be in jail right now. I am glad to denounce that as a miscarriage of justice.

But what happened to him was exactly what I advocate happening to whoever shot the Tibetan. The guy from Pasadena went before a grand jury who reviewed the evidence from the thorough investigation. After reviewing the evidence, the grand jury decided not to bring charges.

The same thing happened to the two air marshals. The cases were thoroughly investigated and were handed to the federal attorneys who decided that at the point that the man said, "I'm going to blow up this bomb" the marshals had sufficient cause to open fire.

In both of these cases, what happened is what I advocate for whoever potentially shot the monk in the back. There were thorough and open civil investigations, and after a decision based on the facts was made the details were released to the public.

And when the American courts do something wrong, Americans on this BBS who disagree are vocal and aggressive in denouncing it. But for several of the Chinese posters, that same self-critical eye doesn't seem possible, and they don't even seem to really understand the whole principal too well. Any criticism of China is an assault which requires tit-for-tat retaliation.

[ymc]

IMO the PRC continues to pass up on a golden opportunity to settle the Tibet issue reasonably. By continuing to demonize and marginalize the Dalai Lama they are only guarenteeing that more radical leaders will take his place.

Why do you keep ignoring the realpolitik here? The commies know the Tibetans are no match to them. Plus, they now have strong business ties to most Western countries.

Might makes right. It has always been like that. Even justice comes from the barrel of gun.

[Matchman]

I find the general tone of this thread to be sickening and sad. As I've said repeatedly before there is a very reasonable answer to all of this and that is for the PRC to agree to work with the Dalai Lama who has already offered what the PRC most wants, that Tibet remains part of the PRC. Instead the PRC is more interested in demonizing the Dalai Lama.

There is no denying that there is violence being committed by Tibetans but consider that since the PRC entered Tibet there has only been about 3 mass incidents of rioting. Compare that to the Palestinian Territories, Northern Ireland or any other conflict regarding an occupation. What has happened in the past week in Tibet while tragic pales in comparison to what happened in during the height of the Intifada or during the height of the unrest of Northern Ireland. Consider though where Tibet might be without a leader like the Dalai Lama insisting on nonviolence compared to if they were led by someone like Arafat.

IMO the PRC continues to pass up on a golden opportunity to settle the Tibet issue reasonably. By continuing to demonize and marginalize the Dalai Lama they are only guarenteeing that more radical leaders will take his place.

wait, so because they are less violent than the militants in the Palestinian Terrorities and the Northern Ireland, they are free to loot banks and kill innocent people? what kind of logic is this :confused: ?! i can understand if they are burning down government buildings but they started a race riot and murdered a specific group of people on the streets!!

[real_egal]

I find the general tone of this thread to be sickening and sad. As I've said repeatedly before there is a very reasonable answer to all of this and that is for the PRC to agree to work with the Dalai Lama who has already offered what the PRC most wants, that Tibet remains part of the PRC. Instead the PRC is more interested in demonizing the Dalai Lama.

There is no denying that there is violence being committed by Tibetans but consider that since the PRC entered Tibet there has only been about 3 mass incidents of rioting. Compare that to the Palestinian Territories, Northern Ireland or any other conflict regarding an occupation. What has happened in the past week in Tibet while tragic pales in comparison to what happened in during the height of the Intifada or during the height of the unrest of Northern Ireland. Consider though where Tibet might be without a leader like the Dalai Lama insisting on nonviolence compared to if they were led by someone like Arafat.

IMO the PRC continues to pass up on a golden opportunity to settle the Tibet issue reasonably. By continuing to demonize and marginalize the Dalai Lama they are only guarenteeing that more radical leaders will take his place.

Low violence in Tibet in the past 50 years is all Dalai's credit, it has nothing to do with Tibetan Chinese living in Tibet? It has nothing to do with PRC and other Chinese?

Sishir, we've been through this over and over. You continue to claim that Dalai has OFFERED Tibet to remain part of China, but PRC has passed the golden opportunity again and again. In fact, you have reiterated that in almost every such thread. I, and many other posters have pointed out to you, that Dalai is in no position to offer such thing. PRC territories are decided at the time of its establishment, which is recognized and protected by international community and international law. A foreigner, be it an average Joe or spiritual leader, is in no position to negotiate with a country, no matter what he/she offers.

Dalai, while young, with his supporters, accepted the regime change in China. He would have much more impact in Tibet if he hadn't broken the agreement after the serves were freed and failed in the rebel. If he succeeded then, he would have restored the theocracy. But he failed and fled from China.

I give Dalai Lama credit for his stance to condemn violent riot. But it is not a bargaining chip in a "negotiation" as you suggested.

[michecon]

As I've said repeatedly before there is a very reasonable answer to all of this and that is for the PRC to agree to work with the Dalai Lama who has already offered what the PRC most wants, that Tibet remains part of the PRC. Instead the PRC is more interested in demonizing the Dalai Lama.

Funny thing is, I find the most damage to Dalai Lama's reputation isn't whatever being said by PRC. Rather, it's his ties to CIA. That's how public opinions of him in China works.

And Chinese don't like being told who to work with by foreigners, that brings them bad memory. So, in fact, what a lot western government think they are helping the situation doesn't really help.

[longhornchampno]

But for several of the Chinese posters, that same self-critical eye doesn't seem possible, and they don't even seem to really understand the whole principal too well. Any criticism of China is an assault which requires tit-for-tat retaliation.

It's the similar mentality of a few other posters here (SamFisher?) who perpetually hold an anti-China point of view. These folks are so predictable that I know what their stance is or basically could tell what they are going to say whenever I see a thread about China or Chinese people. Therefore, I really think this is an endless debate. Look, everyone is hypocritical to a certain extent. But the ones who try to make themselves out to be righteous while being hypocritical and biased make me want to punk.

[longhornchampno]

It's the similar mentality of a few other posters here (SamFisher?) who perpetually hold an anti-China point of view. These folks are so predictable that I know what their stance is or basically could tell what they are going to say whenever I see a thread about China or Chinese people. Therefore, I really think this is an endless debate. Look, everyone is hypocritical to a certain extent. But the ones who try to make themselves out to be righteous while being hypocritical and biased make me want to punk.

puke not punk.

[newplayer]

First, IMO he should be in jail right now. I am glad to denounce that as a miscarriage of justice.


I believe this is what you said:


Walk into any police station, anywhere in the world, and tell them that you have a body with you which you shot in the back in self defense. See how well that goes for you.

It seems that you were trying to assert that shooting people in the back is unlawful anywhere in the world even under the claim of self-defense. But a specific case that took place in your own country shows exactly the opposite, you may consider it as a miscarriage of justice, but obviously your justice system doesn't. Maybe you should just be a bit less self-righteous.

[rocketsjudoka]

Why do you keep ignoring the realpolitik here? The commies know the Tibetans are no match to them. Plus, they now have strong business ties to most Western countries.

Might makes right. It has always been like that. Even justice comes from the barrel of gun.

In the 19th C. was it right that Britian and other colonial powers used their might to humiliate the Chinese.

Might makes right until you find yourself at the other end of the gun.

Anyway this isn't just about what is right. The British Army was vastly superior to the IRA yet that didn't keep them from sitting down and negotiating a peace treaty. The Israelis are vastly superior to the Palestinians yet even the most hawkish Israeli leaders have said they are willing to trade land for peace. If the Tibetans end up becoming radicalized while they might never outrightly defeat the PRC they could cause lots of problems for decades.

[rocketsjudoka]

wait, so because they are less violent than the militants in the Palestinian Terrorities and the Northern Ireland, they are free to loot banks and kill innocent people? what kind of logic is this :confused: ?! i can understand if they are burning down government buildings but they started a race riot and murdered a specific group of people on the streets!!

You miss the whole point. The Dalai Lama is offering a peaceful resolution the problem is that the more he is marginalized the more likely Tibet will end up like the Northern Ireland.

[rocketsjudoka]

Low violence in Tibet in the past 50 years is all Dalai's credit, it has nothing to do with Tibetan Chinese living in Tibet? It has nothing to do with PRC and other Chinese?

If that were the case then why hasn't the Uighars been have peaceful as the Tibetans when their territory has also been settled by Hans? It is undeniable that the Dalai Lama's insistence on non-violence has helped to keep Tibet peaceful.

Sishir, we've been through this over and over. You continue to claim that Dalai has OFFERED Tibet to remain part of China, but PRC has passed the golden opportunity again and again. In fact, you have reiterated that in almost every such thread. I, and many other posters have pointed out to you, that Dalai is in no position to offer such thing. PRC territories are decided at the time of its establishment, which is recognized and protected by international community and international law. A foreigner, be it an average Joe or spiritual leader, is in no position to negotiate with a country, no matter what he/she offers.

Northern Ireland is recognized as part of the UK, Bosnia was recognized as part of Yugoslavia and up until a few weeks ago Kosovo was recognized as part of Serbia. International recognition could change based on events on the ground and insurgencies aren't usually restrained by international recognition. You might cling to the idea that Tibet is recognized as part of the PRC but for Tibetan radicals that will be as much restraint as it is for Checnyans. The Dalai Lama as the political and spiritual leader is in a very strong position to influence the actions of Tibetans. The PRC believes so which is why they want to condemn him. If they believe that he does have a strong influence then it is in their (PRC) interest to negotiate rather than cling to a legalism that doesn't matter to an insurgency.

Dalai, while young, with his supporters, accepted the regime change in China. He would have much more impact in Tibet if he hadn't broken the agreement after the serves were freed and failed in the rebel. If he succeeded then, he would have restored the theocracy. But he failed and fled from China.

Given what happened in Tibet after the Dalai Lama fled, Cultural Revolution, do you honestly think that the Dalai Lama wasn't better off fleeing? Consider that the Panchen Lama who stayed was jailed. As for restoring the theocracy that is speculation that isn't supported by the facts as of 1963 he had already stated he wanted a secular Tibet.

I give Dalai Lama credit for his stance to condemn violent riot. But it is not a bargaining chip in a "negotiation" as you suggested.

It is if you consider that the alternative is for the Dalai Lama to advocate the Tibetans taking up an international violent struggle like Hezbollah. The Dalai Lama will never do that but if he loses influence there might be other Tibetans who do.

[jli]

In the 19th C. was it right that Britian and other colonial powers used their might to humiliate the Chinese.

Might makes right until you find yourself at the other end of the gun.

Anyway this isn't just about what is right. The British Army was vastly superior to the IRA yet that didn't keep them from sitting down and negotiating a peace treaty. The Israelis are vastly superior to the Palestinians yet even the most hawkish Israeli leaders have said they are willing to trade land for peace. If the Tibetans end up becoming radicalized while they might never outrightly defeat the PRC they could cause lots of problems for decades.


You just dont know who you are dealing with. :cool:

[Ottomaton]

It seems that you were trying to assert that shooting people in the back is unlawful anywhere in the world even under the claim of self-defense. But a specific case that took place in your own country shows exactly the opposite, you may consider it as a miscarriage of justice, but obviously your justice system doesn't. Maybe you should just be a bit less self-righteous.

My point was that you would be looked at with a jaundiced eye for making such a claim. You will be investigated thoroughly and questioned extensively. Maybe you should be just a little less paranoid and denfensive.

[real_egal]

You miss the whole point. The Dalai Lama is offering a peaceful resolution the problem is that the more he is marginalized the more likely Tibet will end up like the Northern Ireland.

If Tibet ends up like Northern Ireland, who are the ones to suffer? Tibetan Chinese and other ethnic Chinese. Do you and other posters lose anything? No. Do you and other posters gain anything really, except for a pad on the back "I told you so"? No.

I oppose violence, any kind. I oppose war, any kind. I support democracy, but not the one with blood of innocent civilians. Lots of people here oppose the war in Iraq, and some other support the war. But what do you care about is American interest, and own belief or your perception of right or wrong. How many of you will lose sleep at night, that Iraqi civilians are shedding blood every day? I won't, because as a selfish man, I don't relate to them, although I sympathize with them and feel bad for them. Quite frankly, I don't lose anything personally. But, oversea Iraqi people, including those living in US, when they oppose the invasion, they are opposing it from a more personal standpoint. They might have families and friends there facing the danger. They really care about those people.

More and more Americans are against the war in Iraq? Why? All of a sudden they have friends in Iraq? No, the war costs too much money, and that's not good for America. Besides that, the dead Iraqis are still just numbers and a few images on TV. No matter what motivation us outsiders have to support/oppose the war, the killing is happening in that country, and to that people.

Same thing for Tibet. We can argue why it belongs to China, for it's been that way for hundreds of years, or it doesn't belong to China for it has own culture and religion. We can also argue how Dalai Lama's peaceful approach lowered the violence in Tibet, or how CIA's involvement and Dalai's rebellion caused this conflict 50 years ago. But no matter how we argue about it, does anyone of you expect a peaceful breakout from China? If yes, how? With violent riots? If no, why would any ethnic Chinese including Tibetan Chinese supporting blood shedding for their brothers and sisters?

To many posters with Chinese background, no matter what citizenships they have now, the tie to China is always there. They don't want to see turmoil in China, be it in Tibet or Shanghai. There is no noble or righteous goal, but simple tie of blood. On the other hand, the ones advocating "fighting against oppression" don't mind a few hundred or a few million lost lives in a foreign country. That's why you see posters here use Rape of Nanking to bait "nationalist" ethnic Chinese. Millions of lives are just a baiting tool on an internet bbs.

If you want to discuss about feasibility and solutions to improve the situation, by all means. But to argue whether Tibet has the legit demand to be independent, what's the point? Do native Americans have legit demand to drive everyone out? If it's not feasible, what's the point to argue?

If we are in communist utopia, there will be no country, no army, so there will be no conflict and no war. But didn't we decide communism is evil?

[Ottomaton]

If Tibet ends up like Northern Ireland, who are the ones to suffer? Tibetan Chinese and other ethnic Chinese. Do you and other posters lose anything? No. Do you and other posters gain anything really, except for a pad on the back "I told you so"? No.


I appreciate your point. Rocketsjudoka is talking about avoiding bloodshed too. He's talking about finding a solution that will make both the Tibetans and the CPC mostly happy. When you take ethnic Tibetans and marginalize them in their own homeland, you increase the chance of them feeling the need to fight. Happy, empowered people don't riot and destroy.

If you believe the CPC 'Dali Clique' argument that this is all just a handful of fascists imperialists who want to force foreign contries to re-colonize China, then rocketsjudoka's post probably doesn't make sense.

But if these are not riots sponsored by some secret cabal, and Tibetans are really Chinese citizens, and these Chinese citizens really feel that the government in Beijing doesn't care a rat's @ss about what they believe and want, then you should be concerned about your fellow Chinese who are terribly upset, right?

The Dali Lama isn't talking about independence. Undoubtedly there are people who want it, but compromising with the Dali Lama on cultural protections and a degree of autonomy is a way to avoid empowering them.

[yeo]

You miss the whole point. The Dalai Lama is offering a peaceful resolution the problem is that the more he is marginalized the more likely Tibet will end up like the Northern Ireland.

The Dalai Lama may be paying lip service to China's sovereignty now, but he has flip-flopped several times on this position before. There was a golden opportunity back in the early 1980's to reach a settlement, but after the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, Dalai thought that China would also fall apart and switched to a hardline position of total independence. So I don't blame China for not trusting Dalai's words.

Secondly, even in Dalai's current position, there is also an insurmountable roadblock, in that he claims a "Greater Tibet", including not just the current TAR, but also Tibetan-populated areas in neighbouring provinces. The recent reports in the Western press, in typical fashion, have flippantly made the claim that these areas were part of Tibet before 1950 and was carved off by China only after that. This is absolute and total BS. A simple look at the pre-Communist maps would prove that. In fact, the Dalai Lamas, and the Tibetan kings before them, have not had any administrative control over those areas since the 9th Century! It's like claiming New York's Chinatown should be Chinese territory because there is a large concentraton of Chinese there! And this "Greater Tibet" covers nearly a quarter of China's territory. Do you think there is any chance China would agree to that?

Thirdly, the Dalai Lama wants all non-Tibetans to be removed from "Greater Tibet". Yes, he wants an ethnic cleansing! This not only includes the recent migrants, but also millions of people of dozens of different ethnicities who have lived in these areas for centuries. Do you think there is any chance of that?

So unless Dalai renounces these demands, and make concrete conciliatory gestures, such as disbanding his theocratic "exile-government", renouncing any claims to political power, and publicly committing to the separation of religion and state, etc. there is no chance of a political settlement in Tibet.

As for your fears of Tibetan radicalization and adopting violent and terrorist ways, I think you will find the Chinese government and the Chinese people are made of tougher stuff than you think. In fact, if I put on my cynical hat, I think that's exactly what the Chinese government wants. The only thing Tibetan separatists have got going for them at the moment is this facade of non-violence and pacifism, which has successfully captured the popular imagination (and it is only an imagination) in the west. The adopting of violent and terrorist ways would be the beginning of the end of the "Free Tibet" movement.

[jli]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/tibet.miles.interview/

[pirc1]

Why bother debating in these threads? Chinese government is the devil, break China up , setup western democracy ! It doesn't matter if the country will fall apart and the ecnomony will tank or that the people will suffer. That's pretty much the view of 90% plus of the people on this bbs.

[yeo]

Views of a Briton living in China, from the Daily Telegraph

"My name is Paul Taylor. As my name suggests I am a British citizen. Unlike many of the people pontificating ( including leader writers and self proclaimed experts) I live in China. I can tell you that I enjoy a comfortable lifestyle and live in far greater safety than I ever did in London. Chinese people usually respect and admire foreigners and afford us many privileges.

The Olympic Games mean a lot to the Chinese. They have prepared for them assiduously and at enormous expense. To use the Olympics as an excuse to declare open season on the hard working Chinese will rightly be seen as an affront and atrocious bad manners.

Prince Charles , Gordon Brown on others who are attempting to improve thir atrocious image by attacking China will only reinforce the justified conviction among many Chinese that it is the Chinese themselves who are under attack. On this issue it should be noted that a so called democracy would crack down on rioters far harder than the Chinese communist party. Public opinion would demand it

And since when do we admire and applaud rioters who taget minorities . Arsonists looters etc.

Many ethnic Chinese were killed for no other reason than they are immigrants from other provinces. Tibetans also live in other parts of China, be mindful of your support and promotion of n independent Tibet. It is not economically feasible and apart from limited seasonal tourism and aid would be unsustainable as a modern economy and would remain heavily dependent on its two giant neighbours India and China,

In my firm opinion Tibet should remain within China to share some of the economic progress that such a successful economy generates. The alternative is to become a theme park so that New age hippies and conservative leader writers can gawp.

many of the tourists who arrive in China have already made up their mind. Ironically they use Chinese made transport to go to Lhasa. The amazing train that links lhasa to beijing ( even the Swiss said it couldnt be done) but hard work and science and a huge amount of investment and now there is a train to carry people and goods to tibet. And here is the rub. contrary to the received wisdom of our chattering classes tibetans want consumer goods and non seasonal foodstuffs just as much as the trendies reading my piece. Tibet is landlocked , high altitude plateau with very few natural resources.

The Dalia Lama is only popular for sentimental and new age reasons. China is unpopular because its effective, secular and does not send soldiers all over the world to interfere in other nations domestic affairs and to seize the oil wells. ref UK and US.

I beg the British people to defer from knee jerk reactions based upon incomplete information or on frankly faulty leaders in National newspapers.

Those who know China well and live here are amazed by the way the Chinese focus on getting on with things. Hard working, secular, look after old people, small families, law and order, no vandalism, low crime, respect for education, almost no starvation

I have been in rural areas including many areas with tibetan minorities such as Gansu Yunan and Sichuan. Life in those areas compares well with similar areas in Nepal for example

The UK in fact recognised Tibet as part of China from 1906 so its a bit rich now , 100 years later to change our tune.

We simply cannot afford more new enemies , Britains attempts to interfere in others business usually end as fiascos such as East Timor Kosovo Iraq Afghanistan and Somalia all failed states and ALL created with significant UK assistance

Are we going to add China to tgeh long list of enemies such as Russia Serbia Cuba Iran North Korea Sudan Zimbabwe Cuba etc

cant Gordon Brown and Prince Charles put a sock in it?"

[yeo]

Why bother debating in these threads? Chinese government is the devil, break China up , setup western democracy ! It doesn't matter if the country will fall apart and the ecnomony will tank or that the people will suffer. That's pretty much the view of 90% plus of the people on this bbs.

It's fun debating here because it's always fun exposing hypocrits and perhaps opening a few people's eyes with facts they may not have known of before. No, I do not expect to really change anyone's mind. But then it doesn't really matter what those people think anyway. As one recent LA Times article pointed out, the Chinese government has already won in the only public opinion arena that counts, that of the Chinese people. The recent events have pushed the 1.3 billion Chinese people firmly behind their government's stance on Tibet. And with that support, there really ain't a thing the Tibetan separatists or their western backers can do. Note the very muted reactions from governments around the world, as compared to the media frenzy. Unlike the talking-heads, the governments live in the real world and know that China is far too powerful to be pushed around and far too important to antagonize.

[MFW]

First, IMO he should be in jail right now. I am glad to denounce that as a miscarriage of justice.

But what happened to him was exactly what I advocate happening to whoever shot the Tibetan. The guy from Pasadena went before a grand jury who reviewed the evidence from the thorough investigation. After reviewing the evidence, the grand jury decided not to bring charges.

The same thing happened to the two air marshals. The cases were thoroughly investigated and were handed to the federal attorneys who decided that at the point that the man said, "I'm going to blow up this bomb" the marshals had sufficient cause to open fire.

In both of these cases, what happened is what I advocate for whoever potentially shot the monk in the back. There were thorough and open civil investigations, and after a decision based on the facts was made the details were released to the public.

And when the American courts do something wrong, Americans on this BBS who disagree are vocal and aggressive in denouncing it. But for several of the Chinese posters, that same self-critical eye doesn't seem possible, and they don't even seem to really understand the whole principal too well. Any criticism of China is an assault which requires tit-for-tat retaliation.

I wish I could say that I am confounded by your flippant and self contradicting ways, but I am not. By your own admission, details and your understanding of the situation in Tibet is sketchy at best, yet you seem to take an accusatory, even condemning tone.

For example, regarding that picture in which Sammy Fisher posted, even though you acknowledge that you (or I) know the circumstances surrounding the death, on one hand you say you are saying that you are merely asking for an investigation; then in the almost immediate next post, you bash Chinese posters for not criticizing the government.

Really, if you don't know the details of the situation, what the hell are the Chinese citizens supposed to criticize? Because you as the judge and jury already convicted them of the crimes?

Americans criticize their government? Great. The same happens in China. What the majority of Chinese posters have resisted doing is condemning UNPROVEN sketchy and therefore biased bashing of China under the guise of fairness and freedom. You on the other hand, takes the biased Tibetan exile slant at face value while not doing the same for biased Chinese government reports, which from what I saw, never approached the absurdity of the exiles.

Back to the dead monk for example, there is no date, no place, no surrounding events. IF it was a Tibetan monk, we don't know where it and under what circumstance it occurred. In fact, we don't even know of that death occurred in the recent disturbances or prior events.

Btw, here is a definition of "self-defence:"

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d030.htm

"Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances."

You will find that the legal definition of the term self-defence is not literally restricted to "self" defence as you liked to spin it. Law enforcement also have more leeway.

Your claim of Chinese posters getting defensive about any criticism of the country is nothing short of ridiculous. The far more apt example is the Americans condemning the US government from claiming there are WMD's and Al-Qaeda in Iraq. But even that looks more favourable towards the Chinese. As of right now details in China are sketchy whereas the Bush Administration are proven liars, not to mention there were many unbiased alternative sources which showed that Saddam was actually telling the truth, something Americans conveniently ignored.

[yeo]

Giving the victims a human face,

Five young girls, including a Tibetan, burnt to death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZngrkgPVMVM)

[Ottomaton]

Back to the dead monk for example, there is no date, no place, no surrounding events. IF it was a Tibetan monk, we don't know where it and under what circumstance it occurred. In fact, we don't even know of that death occurred in the recent disturbances or prior events.


I don't see you or anybody applying the same standard of extreme distrust when people post pictures of Han killed by Tibetans. Perhaps everybody in Tibet is actually sitting around singing Kumbayah and nobody has been killed at all. I think, however, that this is not likely. When I see plausable photos with plausable claims, I am willing to operate under the assumption that they are real, be they Tibetian, or Chinese, or Mongolian, or whatever. Or are you claiming that Tibetians make false photos while Han never do?

[yeo]

Giving the victims a human face,

Five young girls, including a Tibetan, burnt to death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZngrkgPVMVM)

A bit of translation for those prople who don't understand Chinese:

The Tibetan girl inverviewed was the only survivor of a burnt down cloth shop. She said the rioters came in the shop and smashed everything. When they left she went out to check and realised the shop was on fire. She shouted into the shop "its on fire, Run!!" and she ran. But the other girls did not follow her so they all got killed in the fire.

One of victims sent a text message to her dad," dad, mom, many mobs are killing people around our store. i can not run out, but i am ok,do not worry about me. you and mom stay at home ."

A 21-year-old Tibetan girl ,who was from a small village in Shigatse, died in the shop. The whole family depended on her wages. Her aunt and elder brother came to the shop and ...

[yeo]

Giving the victims a human face,

Five young girls, including a Tibetan, burnt to death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZngrkgPVMVM)

http://www.cctv.com/english/20080320/images/101288_1205976676080.jpg
18-year-old Chen Jia was the youngest among the five victims.

http://www.cctv.com/english/20080320/images/101288_1205976591702.jpg
Survivor Zhuoma (Tibetan) said, "We heard loud noises nearby. The rioters crashed into other stores. We cried and flinched."

http://www.cctv.com/english/20080320/images/101288_1205976739749.jpg
Beside the debris, Chen Jia's father can't help himself.

5 girls burn to death in Lhasa riot

Source: CCTV.com | 03-20-2008 09:11

Violence in Lhasa has resulted in a heavy toll in lives and property. Official statistics indicate 13 civilians were burned or stabbed to death. Among them are five girls who worked for a clothing store.

This clothing store in Lhasa was targeted by rioters last Friday. Zhuoma is the only survivor. She says she, along with her friends, had no place to hide, and stayed inside the store when the incident took place.

Rioters broke in and entered the store. After several minutes, it returned to calm. Zhuoma thought the rioters had left, so she called on her friends to escape.

Survivor Zhuoma said, "I saw flames and smoke, then I shouted hurry up, the store's on fire."

Zhuoma ran out and hid in the yard of a nearby hostel. But then she realized what had happened to her friends. Zhuoma is left shocked that she is the only survivor. Days after the violence, Zhuoma still can't accept that her friends are no longer here.

Survivor Zhuoma said, "I never thought about that. We were happy together that morning, but it suddenly changed hours later. I can't believe it, I can't accept the truth that they have left me. I want to ask the rioters why did they do it? I really can't understand why the rioters killed innocent civilians,why they killed our sisters. We, as employees, don't have much money. If they want money, why do they rob us of our lives?"

18-year-old Chen Jia was the youngest among the five victims. Beside the debris, her father can't help himself.

Chen Jia's father said, "My daughter was so feminine, we all loved her."

In an earlier message sent to her loved ones, she said: "Dad, it's so violent outside, we can just stay at the store. Don't worry about me, and tell mother and sister to stay at home and take care."

Official statistics show that so far 156 rioters have surrendered. Local police say they are confident they'll arrest those behind the riots, and will severely punish them.

[MFW]

I don't see you or anybody applying the same standard of extreme distrust when people post pictures of Han killed by Tibetans. Perhaps everybody in Tibet is actually sitting around singing Kumbayah and nobody has been killed at all. I think, however, that this is not likely. When I see plausable photos with plausable claims, I am willing to operate under the assumption that they are real, be they Tibetian, or Chinese, or Mongolian, or whatever. Or are you claiming that Tibetians make false photos while Han never do?

I am not applying double standards at all. Do you or do you not agree with the opinion that a civilian should not die at the hands of another in any circumstance except when the latter mentioned one is under extreme duress (e.g. in self-defence).

If that is true, do you or do you agree that such violent action committed by the second civilian against first is illegal?

Like I said, if you want to challenge the photos of the ethnic Hans being killed was done in self-defence (or any other reason), you are welcome to do so. You didn't.

Furthermore, self-defence has clauses for use of deadly force, as well as a retreat clause. An ethnic Han getting half his face cut off would raise questions as to whether this was done, even if in self-defence, with the appropriate force and the one carrying such actions had no retreat options.

Not that it couldn't be possible. Maybe an ethnic Han with mental problems charged into a Tibetan crowd. But I think it's safe to say that such actions (if any) are exceptions instead of the rule.

Law enforcement on the other hand, has another issue. They are often required to stand their ground to enforce the law. From what I've seen, the photos you and other pro-Tibetan independence crowd posted consisted of single bullet wound, not a lynching style hatchet job. The level of suspicion of senseless violence is therefore, appropriately lower.

Bottom line, if you can actually prove that Chinese police use deadly force without reason, then we have a discussion.

[MFW]

Forgot to mention, the limited footage we have, Chinese sourced or not, also doesn't indicate Tibetans were acting in self-defence.

[Ottomaton]

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/world/asia/19cnd-taiwan.html?em&ex=1206158400&en=06eb71e095069e1d&ei=5087%0A)


China Tensions Could Sway Vote in Taiwan

By KEITH BRADSHER
Published: March 21, 2008

TAIPEI, Taiwan — China’s suppression of protests in Tibet and missteps by the opposition Nationalist Party have made the Taiwanese presidential election on Saturday an unexpectedly close race. What once seemed to be an insuperable lead for the Nationalist candidate, Ma Ying-jeou, has narrowed considerably, politicians and political analysts said.

A narrow victory for Mr. Ma would give him a weaker mandate for his goal of closer economic relations with mainland China. An actual defeat for Mr. Ma, now a possibility although not yet the most likely outcome, would be a serious setback for Beijing officials, who have cultivated relations with the Nationalist Party, or Kuomintang, over the past four years.

Mainland Chinese officials loathe Taiwan’s current president, Chen Shui-bian, and his party, the Democratic Progressive Party, for pursuing greater political separation from the mainland. Beijing has been wary of the party’s candidate, Frank Hsieh, even though Mr. Hsieh has repeatedly voiced much more willingness than Mr. Chen to allow increased Taiwanese investment on the mainland and more cross-strait transportation links.

A victory by Mr. Hsieh could be perceived in Beijing as a high price to have paid for forcefully putting down demonstrations in Tibet.

Mr. Hsieh received an influential endorsement on Thursday. Lee Teng-hui, a former Nationalist president of Taiwan who now favors much greater political independence from the mainland, said that he would vote for Mr. Hsieh.

Mr. Lee echoed a recent theme of Mr. Hsieh’s campaign, which has repeatedly highlighted the Nationalists’ history as an authoritarian party that ran Taiwan under martial law for decades until 1987. Mr. Lee said it would not be healthy for Taiwan’s democracy if the Nationalists, who took firm control of the legislature in January, won the presidency now.

In the January election, the Nationalists and two affiliated minor parties together captured three-quarters of the seats in the legislature, in a crushing defeat for the Democratic Progressive Party. The Nationalists capitalized on voters’ concerns about stagnant household incomes and paralysis in Taiwan’s contacts with the fast-growing mainland economy — two potent issues that could still produce a victory for Mr. Ma on Saturday.

But an unusual fracas last week has lent resonance to the Democratic Progressives’ warnings to voters against giving too much power to the Nationalists. It started when four Nationalist lawmakers roamed through Mr. Hsieh’s campaign headquarters in an attempt to document whether the building lease complied with election laws.

Mr. Hsieh’s aides trapped the four in an elevator, accused them of trespassing and called the police. A crowd of Democratic Progressive Party supporters formed and smashed the windshield of one of the police cars that rescued the four.

Mr. Ma has apologized for the incident repeatedly since then, and the lawmakers, called “the four idiots” by the Taiwanese news media, bowed low in apology at a news conference as well.

Entering the Democratic Progressive Party’s headquarters “of course fed right into the D.P.P.’s hands,” said J. Bruce Jacobs, the director of the Taiwan research unit at Monash University in Australia.

Mr. Hsieh has staked out a much more moderate position toward Beijing than President Chen. Mr. Ma has taken fairly similar positions on economic issues, and said that he would not seek political reunification with the mainland, still the goal of many Nationalists.

Many of the two men’s proposals, like direct flights to the mainland, would require negotiations with Beijing, and are more likely to happen if Mr. Ma is elected because mainland officials have been reluctant to have formal contacts with the Democratic Progressive Party.

Up through the middle of last week, opinion polls had shown Mr. Ma with a lead of up to 20 percentage points. Taiwan election laws do not allow the release of poll results during the final 10 days before voting. But continuing surveys by both parties show that much of that lead has evaporated, with Mr. Ma now ahead by only a slender margin, politicians and political analysts said.

This has reinvigorated the Democratic Progressive Party, where many were deeply gloomy after the January legislative elections.

“We have narrowed the gap significantly since January, and I believe the final outcome will be very close,” said Hsiao Bi-khim, the international affairs director of Mr. Hsieh’s campaign.

Su Chi, a Nationalist lawmaker and deputy campaign manager for Mr. Ma, agreed that Mr. Ma’s lead had narrowed in the last few days, but said that this was to be expected. Many Democratic Progressive Party supporters did not vote in the legislative elections because they were disillusioned with corruption cases involving the current government, but are now becoming more active as Mr. Hsieh campaigns aggressively, Mr. Su said, adding he still thought Mr. Ma would win.

Government ministers have helped Mr. Hsieh by repeatedly drawing attention to the unrest in Tibet.

“What has happened in Tibet in the past three decades, and what is going on now, is a warning to us,” said Shieh Jhy-wey, the minister of information. “We don’t want to have the same fate as Tibet.”

Chen Ming-tong, the chairman of the Mainland Affairs Council, the government ministry responsible for relations with the mainland, called Thursday for the international community to put more pressure on China to begin a dialogue with the Dalai Lama, the leader of Tibet’s government in exile.

The nightmare situation for the Nationalists would be a repeat of the 2004 presidential election. Lien Chan, the Nationalist candidate, went into the final 10 days of the campaign with a commanding lead in the polls, only to lose by a quarter of a percentage point.

President Chen won re-election then partly because of the sympathy he received when he was lightly wounded in a shooting while campaigning on the eve of voting.

The police concluded a year later that the gunman had been a severely depressed man who drowned himself 10 days after the shots were fired.

[yeo]

A somewhat more even-handed report from the Washington Post, although I find it funny how many times he used the word "Government propaganda" in this article. Apparently he believes that we poor dumb Chinese are incacpable of thinking for ourselves. LOL, a person like me is probably far more exposed to Western propaganda than to Chinese propaganda.

But he does give a more accurate description of Tibetan history, acknowledging that Tibet was a part of the Chinese empire and described the march of the PLA into Tibet in 1950 as "reimposing rule", rather than the common "invasion". But he was wrong in claiming that Tibet was independent during the half-century before. The Dalai Lama may have ruled relatively "independently" during this period, but dejure independence was never achieved nor recognized by any foreign country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/16/AR2008031602649.html

Beijing's Crackdown Gets Strong Domestic Support
Ethnic Pride Stoked by Government Propaganda

By Edward Cody
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, March 17, 2008; Page A12

BEIJING, March 16 -- In the West, the name Tibet has long evoked unspoiled Himalayan landscapes, cinnamon-robed monks spinning prayer wheels and a peace-loving Dalai Lama seeking freedom for his repressed Buddhist followers.

Here in China, people have embraced a different view; they regard Tibet as a historical part of the nation and see its sympathizers in the West as easily fooled romantics. Thanks to government propaganda, but also to ethnic pride, most Chinese see the Dalai Lama and his monks as obscurantist reactionaries trying to split the country and reverse the economic and social progress that China has brought to a backward and isolated land over the past 58 years.

The violent protests by Buddhist monks and other Tibetans that exploded in Lhasa on Friday, therefore, have generated widespread condemnation among the country's majority Han Chinese. In street conversations, Internet discussions and academic forums, most Chinese have readily embraced the government's contention that the violence resulted from a plot mounted by the Dalai Lama from his exile headquarters in India.

Against that background, the Communist Party has met with broad popular approval in vowing to crack down on the rioters -- most of whose victims were Han Chinese -- and in qualifying the "impudent" Dalai Lama as a "master terror maker" who has hoodwinked the West with his appeals for peace. While the rest of the world invokes the Beijing Olympics and advises restraint, Chinese specialists and the public have urged the government to move decisively -- and gamble that the Olympics will not be spoiled.

"The riot in Lhasa was caused by the Dalai Lama," said Zhang Yun, a professor at the government-sponsored Chinese Center for Tibetan Studies in Beijing.

"The monks are very easily influenced by their religious leader, so they are irrational compared to other types of people," he added. "I don't believe any country in the world would allow anything that would destroy social order and ruin people's lives. There is a lot of prejudice against the Chinese government. People believe all that stuff about the Dalai Lama, and that the Chinese government is all wrong. But actually, the reality is not like that."

Jorge Chiang, a stylishly dressed Hong Kong businessman on a trip to Beijing, said he, too, believed the bloody rioting was set off on orders from the Dalai Lama. Now, he predicted, the Chinese government will use the violence as a reason to round up the most prominent activist monks and "tighten its control over Tibet."

"I believe the government is capable of resolving this situation," said a young woman walking in central Beijing on a brilliant spring afternoon. "It's not the first time this has happened."

An Internet commentator who identified himself as Roomx said Buddhist monks have no more right than anybody else to torch shops and kill the Han Chinese businessmen inside. "They are all Chinese citizens," he added. "The monks who are connected to this conduct have to be arrested. Otherwise, it is not in conformity with rule by law."

Dramatizing how broadly such views are held even among the computer-savvy young generation, similar outrage exploded on the Internet after the Icelandic pop singer Bjork capped a concert in Shanghai on March 2 by shouting "Tibet! Tibet!" after a song about independence. Censorship officials huffed about how her gesture was out of place and pledged to tighten controls over foreign performers in China.

The Tibet Autonomous Region's local government issued an announcement after the riots saying the Dalai Lama and his followers instigated the violence "intending to break Tibet away from the motherland." Their allegation reflected China's long-standing complaint that the Dalai Lama, although he preaches limited autonomy, in fact has not abandoned his campaign to make Tibet and its 2.8 million residents fully independent from China.

For those with long memories in Beijing, that has always been the situation. The Dalai Lama, now 72, led a violent uprising with help from the Central Intelligence Agency after Chinese troops reimposed rule from Beijing in 1950. The subversion campaign failed, and he was forced in 1959 to flee on horseback to India, where he has lived in exile for half a century. It was to mark the anniversary of his dramatic flight over the Himalayas that anti-China demonstrations in Lhasa got started last Monday.

Tibet, a 750,000-square-mile territory sitting between the Himalayan and Kun Lun mountain ranges, was more or less part of various Chinese empires over the centuries, paying fealty but often too remote to be totally controlled. With the Dalai Lama as its leader, however, Tibet governed itself as an independent nation while China was torn by the upheavals of the first half of the 20th century. So for Beijing officials and the public they have educated through propaganda, the Dalai Lama is less a devout Buddhist than a secessionist rebel.

"Now the blaze and blood in Lhasa has unclad the nature of the Dalai Lama," said an editorial from the official New China News Agency. "And it's time for the international community to recheck their stance toward the group under the camouflage of nonviolence, if they do not want to be willingly misled."

The Dalai Lama's hold on people's imagination in the West has long irritated the Chinese government. The New China News Agency editorial described his Nobel Peace Prize, awarded in 1989, as "tainted" by Friday's rioting. The Congressional Gold Medal, which injected a chill into U.S.-China relations last October, turned out to be a "fig leaf" for the "rhetoric lama to sell his deceitful philosophy," it said.

In any case, the Chinese government has portrayed its presence in Tibet as beneficial for the population, citing the breakup of traditional serfdom in the countryside, improved health care and school construction. A Beijing-to-Lhasa train that began service in July 2006 was designed to further accelerate economic development, bringing in tourists and taking out minerals.

The economic development has been accompanied by an influx of Han Chinese who, Tibetan nationalists complain, have tightened their grip on all the economic and political levers. The Han Chinese who were killed in Friday's rioting, for instance, were identified as shop owners and employees singled out by Tibetans resentful of their economic domination.

The Chinese arrivals, Tibetans and their supporters abroad say, have submerged Tibetan culture and Buddhist traditions by drawing the territory more closely into the rest of China. Signs along the main street leading to Lhasa's celebrated Jokhang Temple, they note, are just as likely to be written in Chinese as Tibetan, and the saleswomen tend to speak Mandarin rather than the region's own tongue.

A Chinese Tibet specialist in Beijing who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the tensions said the situation was inevitable as China pursues economic development of the region. Like the American West in the 19th century, he said, modernization of China's West in the 21st century is bound to dilute the traditional Tibetan ways so esteemed abroad.

"China's government does not intend to destroy Tibetan culture," he said. "But with the economy developing, the culture will change gradually, the same as in other places in the world."

[yuantian]

i just watched some interviews from china. i know it's propaganda, but the emotions shown by the victims were true.

it's pretty clearly now that when the rioters set buildings on fire. most of the people are still inside. a lot innocent people were burnt to death. those who jumped and ran were injured or beaten by the thugs.

a tibetan doctor who was trying to save a 6 year old chinese boy's life, was beaten so bad by the thugs that he was in the hospital.

many ordinary tibetan citizens were very troubled by the riots. it's pretty clear now that, one of the main reason for the riot is social/economic gap. most rioters were the poor ones. well to do tibetans had no problem with their life. also saw a bunch of people who turned themselves in. but those are probably just the ones got caught up in the moment wanted to rub some money. the bad ones probably hid/ran away.

[foofy]

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/world/asia/19cnd-taiwan.html?em&ex=1206158400&en=06eb71e095069e1d&ei=5087%0A)


China Tensions Could Sway Vote in Taiwan


Good timing, Dalai..

[newplayer]

My point was that you would be looked at with a jaundiced eye for making such a claim. You will be investigated thoroughly and questioned extensively.

Well, the riot has just ended, wouldn't it be a bit more reasonable to wait for a period of time before passing your judgment?


Maybe you should be just a little less paranoid and denfensive.

Maybe you should be a bit more broad-minded and more considerate, and stop accusing anyone who disagrees with you as paranoid and defensive.

[newplayer]

tibetan cavalry raiding chinese government in Gansu province.

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[yeo]

tibetan cavalry raiding chinese government in Gansu province.

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OMG, I don't know whether I should laugh at these people or feel sorry for them. They truely do still live in the 15th century. Cavalry? Why don't they come up with some bows and arrows too! And what exactly do they think they are staging here? A peaceful demonstration? Obviously not, they were trying to storm a government building. An armed rebellion? With horses? Are you kidding? Their head Lama probably told them, go kill some Chinese and you will reach Nirvana in your next life, and off them went happily on their little ponies. Poor suckers.

And that CTV crew "just happened" to be in the right place at the right time. Yeah right! Good thing nobody seems to have died in this incident, otherwise they would be accessory to murder. And look at those people happily posing for the camera. At least cover up their faces, CTV, if you truly do feel sorry for them. Very soon these people would be sitting in prisons. I wonder whether they know all they accomplished was providing some "interesting footage" for TV. Again, poor suckers.

Also note that the security forces again exercised restraint and used tear gas only. Them Commies are actually learning something from their past mistakes. Although I am sure the CTV crew was disappointed. Some blood would have been even better for ratings.

[MFW]

OMG, I don't know whether I should laugh at these people or feel sorry for them. They truely do still live in the 15th century. Cavalry? Why don't they come up with some bows and arrows too! And what exactly do they think they are staging here? A peaceful demonstration? Obviously not, they were trying to storm a government building. An armed rebellion? With horses? Are you kidding? Their head Lama probably told them, go kill some Chinese and you will reach Nirvana in your next life, and off them went happily on their little ponies. Poor suckers.

And that CTV crew "just happened" to be in the right place at the right time. Yeah right! Good thing nobody seems to have died in this incident, otherwise they would be accessory to murder. And look at those people happily posing for the camera. At least cover up their faces, CTV, if you truly do feel sorry for them. Very soon these people would be sitting in prisons. I wonder whether they know all they accomplished was providing some "interesting footage" for TV. Again, poor suckers.

Also note that the security forces again exercised restraint and used tear gas only. Them Commies are actually learning something from their past mistakes. Although I am sure the CTV crew was disappointed. Some blood would have been even better for ratings.

Well, one of them did get beaten up trying to storm a building with "100 heavily armed soldiers" in it.

[Ottomaton]

Well, the riot has just ended, wouldn't it be a bit more reasonable to wait for a period of time before passing your judgment?


Thats fine. But you are the first one to bring that up. Everybody post thus far has been 'Tibetans doctored and faked a photo' or 'It was obviously self defense' or 'Tibetans got what they deserved'


Maybe you should be a bit more broad-minded and more considerate, and stop accusing anyone who disagrees with you as paranoid and defensive.

He, He..

I guess you didn't notice that I was just responding to your insulting remarks when you said,


Maybe you should just be a bit less self-righteous.


I guess you can dish it out, but can't take it, huh? Glass jaw?

Maybe you should not accuse me of being self-righteous in the first place, and I will never respond in kind. You reap what you sew.

[MFW]

Thats fine. But you are the first one to bring that up. Everybody post thus far has been 'Tibetans doctored and faked a photo' or 'It was obviously self defense' or 'Tibetans got what they deserved'



He, He..

I guess you didn't notice that I was just responding to your insulting remarks when you said,



I guess you can dish it out, but can't take it, huh? Glass jaw?

Maybe you should not accuse me of being self-righteous in the first place, and I will never respond in kind. You reap what you sew.

Revisionist history? The only poster who suggested doctored Tibetan photos was foofy.

It also seem that you passed judgment prior to finding out the details.

But I'm not surprised.

[Ottomaton]

At least the government has finally admited that the police were carrying guns. Lets see how many more times they change their story.


China admits police fired at Tibetans in self-defence

Beijing - Chinese police said they shot protesters during violent Tibet-related unrest in the south-western province of Sichuan, the official news agency Xinhua reported Friday, in the first admission by government authorities that guns were used against Tibetan protesters.

Police opened fire in self-defence during unrest Sunday in the town of Aba, where members of China's Tibetan minority live, Xinhua said, citing police sources.

In an initial report, Xinhua said four people were killed, but it later corrected the story to say that police were still looking for four injured protesters, who fled after they were shot.

Authorities had previously insisted that Chinese security forces had not used any lethal weapons. The spokesman for China's Foreign Affairs Ministry on Thursday appeared to deny that security forces had used guns to quell Tibetan independence protests outside the Tibet Autonomous Region.

'They showed maximum restraint,' Qin Gang said when asked about the reaction of paramilitary police to widespread protests in Sichuan, the neighbouring province of Gansu and other Tibetan areas.

'They did not use or take any lethal weapons,' Qin told reporters.

But the ministry on Friday said Qin had only reiterated the government's earlier statement that police did not open fire in Lhasa.

A source in Aba town told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa that 13 Tibetans, including an 8-year-old, were shot dead during clashes March 14 and five more were killed March 15.

The source said one of his relatives was among the 18 dead.

A Tibetan exile group earlier said troops had shot dead at least 39 people in Aba prefecture.

The India-based Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy on Friday identified 16-year-old student Lhundup Tso and nine others as being among 23 people it said were fatally shot Sunday during protests that began at the Kirti monastery in Aba county.

The Xinhua report said police fired shots Sunday after demonstrators attacked officers with knives and tried to take away their weapons.

Police first fired warning shots but were attacked again, an official with the local public security bureau said.

'Police were forced to fire in self-defence,' the official said.

A police station was burned and police cars were destroyed during the unrest, the report said.

The central government has confirmed only 13 deaths in the demonstrations, apparently all non-Tibetans, during rioting March 14 in the Tibetan capital of Lhasa. It earlier denied opening fire on protesters there.

The India-based Tibetan government in exile said it had confirmed the death of at least 80 people in Lhasa.

Protests by Tibetans in China and other countries began March 10, the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising in Tibet against Chinese rule.


source (http://news.monstersandcritics.com/asiapacific/news/article_1396359.php/China_admits_police_fired_at_Tibetans_in_self-defence__Roundup_)

[foofy]

Revisionist history? The only poster who suggested doctored Tibetan photos was foofy.

It also seem that you passed judgment prior to finding out the details.

But I'm not surprised.

No. I didn't suggest that. I just tried to rule out the possibility of execution style. I hate people say something that is not based on facts.

[MFW]

At least the government has finally admited that the police were carrying guns. Lets see how many more times they change their story.


Good try. The government admitted to police carrying guns in Sichuan, not TAR.

No. I didn't suggest that. I just tried to rule out the possibility of execution style. I hate people say something that is not based on facts.

I re-read your post. After thinking about it, it does appear to be the case. Let's just call it a misunderstanding.

But you shouldn't be surprised somebody like Sammy Fisher would claim an execution style shooting.

[yeo]

At least the government has finally admited that the police were carrying guns.

And what is wrong with that? I wish they had done the same on the first day of riots in Lhasa. They failed to do their job and allowed innocent people to be murdered. If the government should be indicted for anything, it is that failure of action.

And you continue to duck the question why it is ok for American cops to shoot rioters and not the Chinese cops. Heck, I even remember a case a few years ago a drunk Chinese immigrant was shot dozens of times and killed by the cops because he was waving a broom at the cops. And the killing was found to be legitimate.

[Ottomaton]

And what is wrong with that? I wish they had done the same on the first day of riots in Lhasa. They failed to do their job and allowed innocent people to be murdered. If the government should be indicted for anything, it is that failure of action.

It is not that they had guns. That is their perogative. It is the fact that the government spent the last week making clearly false statements that the police didn't have guns. If they were lying for the last week about that, why should I trust anything else they have said? The Tibetan reports about what happened are more credible. If the CPC had cared enough about the truth to admit that they were armed with guns the first day, then I might trust some of the other things that they are saying. But apparently they have been in full spin mode this entire time.

CPC = no cred.

[yuantian]

It is not that they had guns. That is their perogative. It is the fact that the government spent the last week making clearly false statements that the police didn't have guns. If they were lying for the last week about that, why should I trust anything else they have said? The Tibetan reports about what happened are more credible. If the CPC had cared enough about the truth to admit that they were armed with guns the first day, then I might trust some of the other things that they are saying. But apparently they have been in full spin mode this entire time.

CPC = no cred.

you have no cred.

where did you see that CPC said, police had NO guns? find the article.
the only thing i saw is that they said no guns were fired. i saw them with riot gear basically hiding from the stones, fire and such.
besides, it's a known fact that a lot of para-military don't have guns. a lot police are not equiped with guns on regular basis, my aunt worked for a police department.

[yeo]

It is not that they had guns. That is their perogative. It is the fact that the government spent the last week making clearly false statements that the police didn't have guns. If they were lying for the last week about that, why should I trust anything else they have said? The Tibetan reports about what happened are more credible. If the CPC had cared enough about the truth to admit that they were armed with guns the first day, then I might trust some of the other things that they are saying. But apparently they have been in full spin mode this entire time.

CPC = no cred.

And you continue to duck the question why it is ok for American cops to shoot rioters and not the Chinese cops.

Looks like not just the CCP (not CPC btw) is in spin mode. :rolleyes:

[Ottomaton]

you have no cred.

where did you see that CPC said, police had NO guns? find the article.
the only thing i saw is that they said no guns were fired.

Uh....

How 'bout the article I posted?


'They did not use or take any lethal weapons,' Qin told reporters.

[yeo]

you have no cred.

where did you see that CPC said, police had NO guns? find the article.
the only thing i saw is that they said no guns were fired. i saw them with riot gear basically hiding from the stones, fire and such.
besides, it's a known fact that a lot of para-military don't have guns. a lot police are not equiped with guns on regular basis, my aunt worked for a police department.

And they said specifically no shots were fired "in Lhasa".

To me, these commies are really dumb. In situations like this, the police are fully justified in opening fire. By emphasizing no shots were fired, they are just backing themselves into a corner. Now the western press are just going to pretend that it should be the norm for the cops to just sit back and take a beating. I guess the commies do not yet have the art of propaganda, err I mean public relations, down pat like we do here in the west. ;)

[yeo]

Uh....

How 'bout the article I posted?


'They did not use or take any lethal weapons,' Qin told reporters.



Uh, how 'bout the next paragraph in the article you posted?

But the ministry on Friday said Qin had only reiterated the government's earlier statement that police did not open fire in Lhasa.

[nokidding]

LOL- it's not a nation witin a nation, it's been the longstanding policy (now scuccessfully enacted) of the CCP to overwhelm the Tibetans with numbers and make them outlaws in their own land.

Now it has worked, and they are upset because the Tibetan chickens are coming home to roost.

Note to CCP: when you occupy a country and subjugate its people- backlash is inevitable. Remember that in the future.

Note to USA: when you occupy a country and subjugate its people- backlash is inevitable. Remember that in the future.

[nokidding]

The riots began when the Chinese began beating the monks in the streets.

You idiot talk like you were there and you saw it.

[nokidding]

Yes, believing the state-censored media is very convenient, if you want to avoid any embarrassing news about the state.

Some of the news are from UK. Read it before you talk. I guess it doesn't matter. You already made your judgement anyway.

[yuantian]

Uh....

How 'bout the article I posted?


'They did not use or take any lethal weapons,' Qin told reporters.



hm... how about the original chinese text? i won't believe anything that biased people translated.

[Ottomaton]

hm... how about the original chinese text? i won't believe anything that biased people translated.

I did what you asked, and you move the goal posts. If I find the 'original chinese text' you will want to see a video of the words comming out of his mouth, and so on and so forth. Right? I'm not going to play that game. I did what you asked.

[yuantian]

I did what you asked, and you move the goal posts. If I find the 'original chinese text' you will want to see a video of the words comming out of his mouth, and so on and so forth. Right? I'm not going to play that game. I did what you asked.

who is playing games here? just provide a source that's believable. only a dumb ass would believe on a line that someone wrote based on another language. unless it was originally English, otherwise, whatever can prove that's what's said would work. not a line from an article.

i can say something like, 'it was reported that 123 innocent civilians were brutally murdered by the mob.' is anyone going to believe that? i hope you get the point. should be simple to comprehend. i wasn't being clear before, hopefully it's clear now. thanks.

[yeo]

Found this on a blog. Seems like a pretty good descrition of what's been going on in this thread. :D

"An imaginary dialog between an American and a Chinese on Tibet:

American: "Free Tibet! You Chinese need to get out of Tibet and leave the Tibetans alone! You need to treat them and their culture with respect!"

Chinese: "You mean like you treated your black slaves and Native American Indians with respect?"

American: "That was a long time ago. We don't do those things anymore. Everyone in America benefits from our American democracy now."

Chinese: "Fine. We are at a different stage of development from you, as you know. You have already reaped the benefits of your extermination campaigns against the Native Americans and your cultural genocide and enslavement of the blacks. We won't go so far. We will simply overwhelm the Tibetans with our numbers. Then, in a generation or two, when Tibet does not exist any more, our grandchildren will write books about how sorry they are, all the while benefiting from the marginalization of the Tibetan people and culture, just like you do with the Native Americans. Perhaps when the Tibetans make up less than 1% of Tibet's population, we'll let them vote and tell them how lucky they are to have the 'freedom to vote'. We'll even let them make some money by opening up some casinos. What do you think of that?"


American: "Dirty commie! Stop trying to brainwash me with your commie propaganda! Free Tibet! Dalai Lama forever!!!" "

[jli]

Here is a funny reply on Latimes bbs to those who want to boycott chinese goods:

"Method of boycott chinese products and make your self heard/see! everyone go out side and start a fire, first throw you China made Ipod(if you have one) and say Free Tibet! loudly. Then take of your china made clothings, including your china made undies and throw them into the fire. Yell Free Tibet again. go back home, and pickup your china made computer and throw it into fire and Yell Free Tibet! do the same thing for every china made product you have purchase over the years. after that your are China free .. keep walking around the fire and constantly yell "Free Tibet!" till the fire burns out. Guarentee exposer"

Submitted by: boycott Chinese products
4:29 AM PDT, March 20, 2008

[langal]

Does the Chinese govt and ppl in general still hold grudges against the Western-Euro powers for the near colonialization, forced opium trade, etc. ?

If so - I would understand why they would tell the West to go eff themselves when someone like Pelosi starts making demands.

I think that is a factor in all of this.

[rocketsjudoka]

If Tibet ends up like Northern Ireland, who are the ones to suffer? Tibetan Chinese and other ethnic Chinese. Do you and other posters lose anything? No. Do you and other posters gain anything really, except for a pad on the back "I told you so"? No.

I oppose violence, any kind. I oppose war, any kind. I support democracy, but not the one with blood of innocent civilians. Lots of people here oppose the war in Iraq, and some other support the war. But what do you care about is American interest, and own belief or your perception of right or wrong. How many of you will lose sleep at night, that Iraqi civilians are shedding blood every day? I won't, because as a selfish man, I don't relate to them, although I sympathize with them and feel bad for them. Quite frankly, I don't lose anything personally. But, oversea Iraqi people, including those living in US, when they oppose the invasion, they are opposing it from a more personal standpoint. They might have families and friends there facing the danger. They really care about those people.

More and more Americans are against the war in Iraq? Why? All of a sudden they have friends in Iraq? No, the war costs too much money, and that's not good for America. Besides that, the dead Iraqis are still just numbers and a few images on TV. No matter what motivation us outsiders have to support/oppose the war, the killing is happening in that country, and to that people.

Same thing for Tibet. We can argue why it belongs to China, for it's been that way for hundreds of years, or it doesn't belong to China for it has own culture and religion. We can also argue how Dalai Lama's peaceful approach lowered the violence in Tibet, or how CIA's involvement and Dalai's rebellion caused this conflict 50 years ago. But no matter how we argue about it, does anyone of you expect a peaceful breakout from China? If yes, how? With violent riots? If no, why would any ethnic Chinese including Tibetan Chinese supporting blood shedding for their brothers and sisters?

The problem with your comparison in regard to the Tibet and Iraq is that you are arguing on one had that that it is bad that Iraqis are dying in Iraq and laying at the feat of outsiders (US) which is a fair judgement but when you compare that to Tibet your argument seems to be that the Tibetans should be non-violent and surrender to the PRC. The problem with your argument is that to be logically equivalent you should be saying that either the insurgents in Iraq should surrender or laying the violence at the feet of the PRC.

To many posters with Chinese background, no matter what citizenships they have now, the tie to China is always there. They don't want to see turmoil in China, be it in Tibet or Shanghai. There is no noble or righteous goal, but simple tie of blood. On the other hand, the ones advocating "fighting against oppression" don't mind a few hundred or a few million lost lives in a foreign country. That's why you see posters here use Rape of Nanking to bait "nationalist" ethnic Chinese. Millions of lives are just a baiting tool on an internet bbs.

I don't want to see turmoil in China which is why I've continued to say, that it is in the PRC's own interests to negotiate with the Dalai Lama as he is offering them a lot for very little. I don't want to see millions die in any country but as a student of history I have a fair understanding of the strength of nationalism and can understand why people will want to fight and die for what they think is right. The mistake that I think the PRC and its supporters are making is the inability to look at this from any point but thier own. A strange situation considering that not that long ago it was the Chinese being brutalized by outsiders who themselves argued that might makes right and that the Chinese were weak, morally corrupt and so deserved being subjugated. Those arguments had no more sway on the Boxers and several other nationalist groups who were willing to take up arms to fight even though that meant that many Chinese would suffer too.

The truth is that Nationalism is a very dangerous force but one that is almost universal and its a mistake to believe that others will simply lay down their identity even if it means great costs. The PRC and Tibet though have an incredibly rare opportunity to deal with a nationalist leader who is not only adverse to bloodshed but very willing to compromise. Instead of seeking that opportunity the PRC would rather embrace a single minded approach.

If you want to discuss about feasibility and solutions to improve the situation, by all means. But to argue whether Tibet has the legit demand to be independent, what's the point? Do native Americans have legit demand to drive everyone out? If it's not feasible, what's the point to argue?

As I posted in another thread the US government has gone a long way to try to rectify what happened to the Native Americans. It is recognized by most in the US (not everyone) that what was done to the Native Americans was wrong. Native American soveriegnity though very limited still gives them control over who can and cannot settle on Tribal land and non-interference in their religious and cultural practice. In fact having dealt with this in regard to architetural projects Native Americans can prevent impact on cultural sites even outside of recongized tribal land. So while what happened to the Native Americans will never be fully addressed steps are being made to remedy that.

If we are in communist utopia, there will be no country, no army, so there will be no conflict and no war. But didn't we decide communism is evil?

Considering that the PRC is communist in name only I'm not sure how this is relevant.

[yeo]

Does the Chinese govt and ppl in general still hold grudges against the Western-Euro powers for the near colonialization, forced opium trade, etc. ?

If so - I would understand why they would tell the West to go eff themselves when someone like Pelosi starts making demands.

I think that is a factor in all of this.

Yes, they do. It's beneath the surface (as compared to say the open hostility towards the Japanese), but it's there.

[rocketsjudoka]

The Dalai Lama may be paying lip service to China's sovereignty now, but he has flip-flopped several times on this position before. There was a golden opportunity back in the early 1980's to reach a settlement, but after the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, Dalai thought that China would also fall apart and switched to a hardline position of total independence. So I don't blame China for not trusting Dalai's words.

Secondly, even in Dalai's current position, there is also an insurmountable roadblock, in that he claims a "Greater Tibet", including not just the current TAR, but also Tibetan-populated areas in neighbouring provinces. The recent reports in the Western press, in typical fashion, have flippantly made the claim that these areas were part of Tibet before 1950 and was carved off by China only after that. This is absolute and total BS. A simple look at the pre-Communist maps would prove that. In fact, the Dalai Lamas, and the Tibetan kings before them, have not had any administrative control over those areas since the 9th Century! It's like claiming New York's Chinatown should be Chinese territory because there is a large concentraton of Chinese there! And this "Greater Tibet" covers nearly a quarter of China's territory. Do you think there is any chance China would agree to that?

Thirdly, the Dalai Lama wants all non-Tibetans to be removed from "Greater Tibet". Yes, he wants an ethnic cleansing! This not only includes the recent migrants, but also millions of people of dozens of different ethnicities who have lived in these areas for centuries. Do you think there is any chance of that?


Yes the Dalai Lama has gone back and forth on the issue of independence vs. autonomy but the point is that he is now for autonomy. Consider that Arafat was for the destruction of all of Israel yet Rabin still negotiated with him. Or that Mandela at one point was for the violent overthrow of white South Africa. The point is what the Dalai Lama's position is now.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/124365

(Newsweek) What more do you think the Chinese leadership wants you to do to prove your sincerity? Wen Jiabao wants you to accept two conditions—that you renounce Tibet's independence and renounce violence—before dialogue can take place.
(Dalai Lama) Last year in Washington we had a meeting with some Chinese scholars, including some from mainland China, who asked me, "What guarantee is there that Tibet will not be separate from China ever [in the future]?" I told them that my statements won't help, my signature won't help. The real guarantee is that the Tibetan people should be satisfied. Eventually they should feel they would get greater benefit if they remain with China. Once that feeling develops, that will be the real guarantee that Tibet will forever remain part of the People's Republic of China.[/rqouter]

If the PRC doesn't believe him then call his bluff and negotiate. If he backs down then the PRC is right but since the PRC isn't even bothering to negotiate it is they and not the Dalai Lama that appear to be the ones that are stubborn and unreasonable.

As for what parts of the PRC are Tibet that is up to negotiation and is somewhat irrelevant since the Dalai Lama is willing to have overall PRC sovereignity.

So unless Dalai renounces these demands, and make concrete conciliatory gestures, such as disbanding his theocratic "exile-government", renouncing any claims to political power, and publicly committing to the separation of religion and state, etc. there is no chance of a political settlement in Tibet.
I would suggest you read up some more on the Dalai Lama if you still continue to believe the Dalai Lama wants to reimpose a theocractic government.

I already posted this earlier in the thread but some would rather not read something that contradicts there views.

http://www.tibet.com/DL/biography.html
[rquoter]
In 1963, His Holiness promulgated a democratic constitution, based on Buddhist principles and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a model for a future free Tibet. Today, members of the Tibetan parliament are elected directly by the people. The members of the Tibetan Cabinet are elected by the parliament, making the Cabinet answerable to the Parliament. His Holiness has continuously emphasized the need to further democratise the Tibetan administration and has publicly declared that once Tibet regains her independence he will not hold political office.



As for your fears of Tibetan radicalization and adopting violent and terrorist ways, I think you will find the Chinese government and the Chinese people are made of tougher stuff than you think. In fact, if I put on my cynical hat, I think that's exactly what the Chinese government wants. The only thing Tibetan separatists have got going for them at the moment is this facade of non-violence and pacifism, which has successfully captured the popular imagination (and it is only an imagination) in the west. The adopting of violent and terrorist ways would be the beginning of the end of the "Free Tibet" movement.[/QUOTE]

Has the ETIM been eradicated? Have the Israelis wiped out Hamas? The Russians have been much harder than perhaps any other country in the world in trying to wipe out the Chechens yet they haven't been able to either. In the Tibetan case it will be even harder to wipe out a dedicated insurgency as most of it is based in other countries where the PRC can't reach whereas the PRC has many economic and diplomatic interests throughout the World.
Don't discount the power of a dedicated insurgency but my point has been all along that this can all be avoided through reasonable negotiations with a partner who has put non-violence as his primary principle.

[rocketsjudoka]

Found this on a blog. Seems like a pretty good descrition of what's been going on in this thread. :D

"An imaginary dialog between an American and a Chinese on Tibet:

American: "Free Tibet! You Chinese need to get out of Tibet and leave the Tibetans alone! You need to treat them and their culture with respect!"

Chinese: "You mean like you treated your black slaves and Native American Indians with respect?"

American: "That was a long time ago. We don't do those things anymore. Everyone in America benefits from our American democracy now."

Chinese: "Fine. We are at a different stage of development from you, as you know. You have already reaped the benefits of your extermination campaigns against the Native Americans and your cultural genocide and enslavement of the blacks. We won't go so far. We will simply overwhelm the Tibetans with our numbers. Then, in a generation or two, when Tibet does not exist any more, our grandchildren will write books about how sorry they are, all the while benefiting from the marginalization of the Tibetan people and culture, just like you do with the Native Americans. Perhaps when the Tibetans make up less than 1% of Tibet's population, we'll let them vote and tell them how lucky they are to have the 'freedom to vote'. We'll even let them make some money by opening up some casinos. What do you think of that?"


American: "Dirty commie! Stop trying to brainwash me with your commie propaganda! Free Tibet! Dalai Lama forever!!!" "

So since Americans got the chance to exploit and exterminate the Native Americans and black Africans that makes it right for the Chinese to do the same to the Tibetans?

[michecon]

...

Whatever you write, there's always this gigantic assumption that Tibet isn't/wasn't part of China. This is what split views come down to.

[Matchman]

So since Americans got the chance to exploit and exterminate the Native Americans and black Africans that makes it right for the Chinese to do the same to the Tibetans?

nope. using the same logic, eventhough the Chinese got the chance to exploit and exterminate the Tibetans that does not make it right for the Tibetans to kill chinese people and set shops and banks on fire.

[michecon]

His Holiness has continuously emphasized the need to further democratise the Tibetan administration and has publicly declared that once Tibet regains her independence he will not hold political office.

I get real confused. Is he actually for Independence as ultimate goal or what? Pardon me.

[wnes]

So since Americans got the chance to exploit and exterminate the Native Americans and black Africans that makes it right for the Chinese to do the same to the Tibetans?

What evidence do you base on to claim the Han-Chinese are exterminating Tibetan-Chinese?

[Ottomaton]

What evidence do you base on to claim the Han-Chinese are exterminating Tibetan-Chinese?

Rocketsjudoka is not making that argument. Perhaps you should talk to your fellow Han-Chinese who bring it up the 'American Indian extermination' justification for whatever Chinese do in Tibet.

[Winrockets]

I don't want to see turmoil in China which is why I've continued to say, that it is in the PRC's own interests to negotiate with the Dalai Lama as he is offering them a lot for very little.

I took a politics class last semester and IIRC China offered the Dalai Lama to be the spiritual leader of Tibet and resolve the issue peacefully. The Dalai Lama rejected it because he wanted to be both the spiritual and political leader of Tibet, although he did agree to oppose independence. So basically, the Dalai Lama wanted de-facto independence like Taiwan but with the continued economic and technological aid from the Chinese government. So offcourse China rejected it.

[wnes]

Rocketsjudoka is not making that argument. Perhaps you should talk to your fellow Han-Chinese who bring it up the 'American Indian extermination' justification for whatever Chinese do in Tibet.

I believe that is also the position he holds.

[ymc]

Interesting take on the Tibet issue. Not sure if the real situation is this complicated or not.

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=2384413bc4f60e6614d134038737f3a a


Endgame for the Dalai Lama: Black Hats Sect Dismantling Power Base

New America Media, News analysis, Yoichi Shimatsu, Posted: Mar 21, 2008

Editor’s note: The façade of Tibetan unity has unraveled and along with it, the Dalai Lama’s power base. Yoichi Shimatsu, former editor of the Japan Times Weekly in Tokyo, was executive producer of the video documentary “Flight of a Karmapa” (Nachtvision 2002) taped in the Tsurphu area of Tibet, the Mustang region of Nepal, Sikkim and Dharamsala.


Hezuo, Gansu Province – For decades, the Beijing government had recognized the Dalai Lama as its sole negotiating partner in Tibetan affairs. For the officialdom, it was simpler to deal with a single person -- the “pontiff” of Tibetan Buddhism – to control the entire ethnic population. The façade of Tibetan unity was convenient to both sides but now it has unraveled, and it’s the endgame for the Dalai Lama.

By ordering the monks of his Gelugpa or Yellow Hat sect to hold peaceful rallies on the 49th anniversary of the Chinese invasion, the Dalai Lama -- unwittingly -- ignited pent-up emotions among Lhasa residents. Scenes like the head bashing, stoning and kicking of a prostrate bicycle owner arose from popular grievances against runaway price inflation and perceived discrimination against Tibetans in their own land. Such cruelty, regardless of past injustices, has nothing to do with Buddhist teachings but arises from the human condition.

Unfortunately for the Dalai Lama, the loyalists in his once-powerful organization inside Tibet are being selectively investigated, arrested and detained for causing the violence. The Beijing government has repeatedly stated that only a small minority of Tibetans loyal to the Dalai Lama were involved in the protests. Whatever its legal flaws, there’s more than a grain of truth in the official assertion.

Amid the mayhem and anarchy, a decisive factor in the Tibetan equation has gone practically unnoticed: Key major players did not join or support the protests:

-- The Panchen Lama, a top prelate of the Gelugpa or Yellow Hat school, second in rank only to the Dalai Lama himself, has spoken in no uncertain terms against the rioting and instead backed the government.

-- Leaders of the Nyingma and Sakya schools, as well as the native Bon religion, did not endorse the protests and are tight-lipped about the wave of arrests.

-- Laymen with the re-ascendant Kagyupa or Black Hat school, are furious with the Dalai Lama after being targeted by Gelugpa supporters during the horsemen’s raid on the Hezuo local district office in south Gansu and in several counties in Sichuan Province.

In this negative light, the rallies by the Gelugpa monks seemed a desperate bid to reassert the Dalai Lama’s authority by accusing their Tibetan rivals of being “collaborators” and presenting themselves as the “resistance.” Due to the unintended violence, however, the Yellow Hats find themselves as the odd man out. Following the crackdown, rival sects are moving to dismantle the remnants of the Gelugpa organization, which had the monopoly of power over the Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR) and other districts as recently as five years ago.

If the façade of Tibetan unity was convenient, it now no longer serves.

In January 2000, the Chinese view of the Dalai Lama started to undergo a radical change during the affair known as the “Flight of the Karmapa” - covered in a documentary by Nachtvision. The Karmapa is the head lama of the Kagyupa, or Black Hat school, which ruled Tibet until the reign of the 5th Dalai Lama began in 1642.

At the turn of the millennium, the teenage Karmapa, born Ogyen Trinley Dorje, began a secret journey from his seat in Tsurphu monastery, west of Lhasa, to Sikkim in north India to recover the mystic Black Crown of the Kagyupa. In the bid to strengthen his nomination against other contenders, the Karmapa rode horseback on a tortuous path through the frozen wilderness of Nepal’s Mustang region. At the 4,500-meters altitude Thorong-La Pass, he was separated from his Nepalese Kagyupa guide and whisked aboard a mountain-rescue helicopter. He soon turned up under virtual house arrest near the Dalai Lama’s headquarters in Dharamsala, India.

As told by his guide, the Venerable Gyaltsen Rimpoche, nicknamed the “Tall Manangi,” the Ogyen Trinley had to retrieve the charismatic crown because “in Lhasa the Karmapa was rising and becoming more popular, so the Gelugpa did not like it and the situation was becoming dangerous for him.” Only the magic talisman could turn the tables on the powerful Yellow Hats.

In the eyes of many Kagyupa monks, the Karmapa has been abducted by the Dalai Lama’s exile government and remains a hostage to the senior leader of a rival sect. The Black Hats responded furiously with demands to Beijing that Gelugpa monks should be stripped of their control over the Tibet province budget and other privileges.

Feeling sorely betrayed by the Dalai Lama, who had earlier backed the appointment of Orgyen Trinley as Karmapa, Beijing consented to the Black Hat’s harsh demands. Thus ended the Yellow Hats’ monopoly on power inside Tibet. Since then, the local governments of many Tibetan zones have been taken over by laymen loyal to the Black Hats. Hezuo, the scene of the horsemen’s well-publicized raid, is the site of the Kagyupa’s Milarepa Shrine. Horses were used in the attack because the raiders came from the Xiahe district, the stronghold of the rival Gelugpa’s Labrang Monastery.

This realignment of sectarian power in Tibet, which can be compared with the Protestant Reformation in Europe, is only now coming to light in public discourse after the Lhasa riots. A People’s Daily editorial, titled “No return to old Tibet” (March 18), stated: “the political exile (Dalai Lama) has continued his rule with an iron fist that smashes any challenge to his power from anyone or any sect. . . . Local Tibetans have managed their affairs well without his interference.”

In private, many exiles across the Himalayas, including former Khampa guerrillas who fought the Chinese army in the 1960s, recount disturbing allegations of the Dalai Lama’s security team's involvement in the murdering of his critics by poisoning and bombing. This dark side of intra-Tibetan intrigue is yet to be factually uncovered before world opinion.

In an ultimate irony, the only person who can prevent the coming demolition and disgrace of the Gelugpa school is Gyeltshen Norbu, the Beijing-appointed Panchen Lama.

The Panchen Lama probably won’t rush to their defense, not after pro-Dharamsala lamas lobbied furiously against Beijing’s attempt to appoint the young lama as a delegate to the National People’s Congress, held in early March, arguing that he was not yet 18 years of age. To avoid controversy, Beijing reluctantly conceded, even though the official birth date of Gyeltshen Norbu was February 13, 1990, making him 18 and eligible.

The Panchen Lama is likely to receive Buddhist VIPs at the Beijing Olympics. An audience and blessing from the bright young monk will certainly win international support for his confirmation of the next reincarnation of the Dalai Lama. It is the traditional custom for the Panchen Lama to confirm the reincarnated Dalai Lama and vice versa. By contrast, high-ranking monks have scoffed at the Dalai Lama’s idea of forming a committee to elect a successor.

The recent uprising in Lhasa, despite its grim pathos, is a reminder of the tragic 1959 insurrection that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Tibetans. In both cases, the 14th Dalai Lama badly miscalculated the divisions among his own people, Beijing’s strategic determination, and the moral hypocrisy of the international community.

In the Buddhist view, all things come full circle. In the 17th century, the 5th Dalai Lama called in a Mongol general to overthrow the Karmapa’s theocracy. Today, the Karmapa’s men are ousting the Gelugpa power structure. Ceaseless change is unstoppable, taught Sakyamuni Buddha. Thus, attachment only results in suffering – our attachment to wealth, power, pride, respect and, most of all, to love, the meanest vice yet highest virtue of human existence. Not even his bitter opponents can dispute the deep love of His Holiness the Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso for his homeland, Tibet. How difficult it must be now, to let go.

[nokidding]

Well said. The problem is the casino idea won't work because Tibet is hard to reach and its surrounding area is still poor. Plus, the commies are against gambling.

Gotta come up with something else. I think letting Tibetans make money off tourism should be a good start.

If you have been in Tibet or its surrounding provinces, you would have realized that Tibetans are not hard workers. Chinese government gives them very high priority and they don't want to take advantage of it. They don't want to go to school. They prefer to earn as much money as possible before the age of 30 and then they would like to spend the rest of their life travelling around different temples in China to do nothing else but pray.

[nokidding]

Actually, how much money is poured into Tibet is probably not the best pure judgement. What I want to know is who is the PRIMARY benefeciary of the construction. The Panama Canal cost the U.S. a lot of money to make, but a the fruit went mostly to U.S. also, thus the protest and the eventual handover.

So the same thing can a be asked about Tibet, are the heads of the tourism and trade industry (as well as all comparable senior positions) in Tibet held by Hans or Tibetans, I don't know and I'm here more to seek knowledge. What I'm trying to say is if an average Tibetan now have the means to open a small shop on the side of the road, sees the opening the supermarket next door by a Han and he sees little or no chance of doing that, then you have a problem.

You mention test scores and I think that's a good start. I'm hoping that comaprable scholorships and stipens are gonna come with it (you can't just let them be in the college easier, but also offer the means to actually go to the college). Kind of like the affirmative action in the U.S., if .1% of aspiring Han youths can get into QinHua, atleast .5% of Tibetans need to be able to, and .2% would get a full ride (free tuition plus living expenses). Same thing for companies, atleast those in Tibet. The better positions and jobs need to have an accurate representation of the demographic break down with in the region. I.E. if Tibetans make up 50% of the population with in Tibet, then they need to (or have programs to actively get to) be at a point where they makeup 50% of the heads of the corporations/companies/etc.

Personally, I think things like that will make the situation in Tibet smoother. I don't claim to know much about Tibet, so informations around economic/educational/social/financial break down of Tibet by Han and Tibetans would be great. I actually don't care much about editorials (from both sides), show me hard numbers.

I think your questions are very reasonable. Considering the degree of coruption in China, I am not surprised if these big goverment heads (Tibetan or Han) benifits the most. Well, that is happenning in everywhere of china. That is why Tibet is not the only place in CHina where protest happens. but CNN doesn't care about that.

[yuantian]

criminals list (http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/200803/news-gb2312-548082.html)
these are the top criminals in this riot. weird thing is, the guy in the 4th picture. the one with the silver colored coat. ya, i have been wearing the exact coat. how the hell did he get that? it was like over $100 dollars when i bought it a few years back. let me assure you, it's not me. :D

[MFW]

Yes the Dalai Lama has gone back and forth on the issue of independence vs. autonomy but the point is that he is now for autonomy. Consider that Arafat was for the destruction of all of Israel yet Rabin still negotiated with him. Or that Mandela at one point was for the violent overthrow of white South Africa. The point is what the Dalai Lama's position is now.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/124365


Of course that's his position now. He is in a position in which he has no bargaining chip. The CCP holds all the cards. If this continues Dalai risks dying outside of Tibet, aside from total irrelevance.


If the PRC doesn't believe him then call his bluff and negotiate. If he backs down then the PRC is right but since the PRC isn't even bothering to negotiate it is they and not the Dalai Lama that appear to be the ones that are stubborn and unreasonable.

As for what parts of the PRC are Tibet that is up to negotiation and is somewhat irrelevant since the Dalai Lama is willing to have overall PRC sovereignity.


They've already done that. And now that they hold all the cards (along with Dalai's flip-flopping ways), I'm sure they see no need to further negotiate.


I would suggest you read up some more on the Dalai Lama if you still continue to believe the Dalai Lama wants to reimpose a theocractic government.

I already posted this earlier in the thread but some would rather not read something that contradicts there views.


In case you didn't notice, he's running a theocracy right now. But you can take whatever he says at face value if you so desire.


Has the ETIM been eradicated? Have the Israelis wiped out Hamas? The Russians have been much harder than perhaps any other country in the world in trying to wipe out the Chechens yet they haven't been able to either. In the Tibetan case it will be even harder to wipe out a dedicated insurgency as most of it is based in other countries where the PRC can't reach whereas the PRC has many economic and diplomatic interests throughout the World.
Don't discount the power of a dedicated insurgency but my point has been all along that this can all be avoided through reasonable negotiations with a partner who has put non-violence as his primary principle.

Consider open attacks on governmental facilities in as recent as the 50's by its predecessors, ETIM's influence has already been curbed significantly.

[richirich]

Well, there are always sources that are more unbiased then others.

With that said, I'll make a bold statement here and say this is evidence that Tibet and China cannot peacefully coexist as a "nation within a nation". Given the state of the world economy and everything else, I doubt Tibet will ever get its independance. But really, this is just a thorn to China's side, and I doubt there are any benefits at all to holding Tibet...

You keep all of those Indian soldiers from climbing over Mt Everest and invading..... :D

[newplayer]

He, He..

I guess you didn't notice that I was just responding to your insulting remarks when you said,

I guess you can dish it out, but can't take it, huh? Glass jaw?

Maybe you should not accuse me of being self-righteous in the first place, and I will never respond in kind. You reap what you sew.

don't be such a drama queen.

[Ottomaton]

don't be such a drama queen.

I'm laughing at you. That's comedy not drama.

[newplayer]

I'm laughing at you. That's comedy not drama.

You've got a weird sense of humor, like how you suggest genocide to solve problems between countries.

[Bank_Shot]

From what I read on Chinese BBS and forums, there is a strong sentiment of ethnic hatred among ethnic Hans toward ethnic Tibetians. There is also strong hatred toward the West as many people see the West as the backers of Dalai Lama and the Tibetian independent movement. The feeling is that the West is trying to sabotage China in the Olympic year by playing up the Tibetian crackdown and the West's ultimate goal is to curb China's development and prevent it from becoming a great nation. This feeling is especially strong among young Chinese, evident by the posts on many universitys' BBS's.

I was in university in China when the Tibetian protests of 1987 happend and when the Beijing student demonstration/protests happened in 1989. There was a very different feeling back then. Most ordinary Chinese people, especially the young people, did not agree with the goverment's actions back then. I remember talking to many young people who supported the Tibetians' causes. That feeling seems to have vanished today and replaced by a strong and even dangerous nationalist zeal.

I think at some point the West needs to re-examine its China policy. What has happend in the last 20 years that have dramatically shifted the public opinions among the Chinese toward the West?

[yeo]

Interesting take on the Tibet issue. Not sure if the real situation is this complicated or not.

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=2384413bc4f60e6614d134038737f3a a


Endgame for the Dalai Lama: Black Hats Sect Dismantling Power Base

New America Media, News analysis, Yoichi Shimatsu, Posted: Mar 21, 2008

Editor’s note: The façade of Tibetan unity has unraveled and along with it, the Dalai Lama’s power base. Yoichi Shimatsu, former editor of the Japan Times Weekly in Tokyo, was executive producer of the video documentary “Flight of a Karmapa” (Nachtvision 2002) taped in the Tsurphu area of Tibet, the Mustang region of Nepal, Sikkim and Dharamsala.


Hezuo, Gansu Province – For decades, the Beijing government had recognized the Dalai Lama as its sole negotiating partner in Tibetan affairs. For the officialdom, it was simpler to deal with a single person -- the “pontiff” of Tibetan Buddhism – to control the entire ethnic population. The façade of Tibetan unity was convenient to both sides but now it has unraveled, and it’s the endgame for the Dalai Lama.

By ordering the monks of his Gelugpa or Yellow Hat sect to hold peaceful rallies on the 49th anniversary of the Chinese invasion, the Dalai Lama -- unwittingly -- ignited pent-up emotions among Lhasa residents. Scenes like the head bashing, stoning and kicking of a prostrate bicycle owner arose from popular grievances against runaway price inflation and perceived discrimination against Tibetans in their own land. Such cruelty, regardless of past injustices, has nothing to do with Buddhist teachings but arises from the human condition.

Unfortunately for the Dalai Lama, the loyalists in his once-powerful organization inside Tibet are being selectively investigated, arrested and detained for causing the violence. The Beijing government has repeatedly stated that only a small minority of Tibetans loyal to the Dalai Lama were involved in the protests. Whatever its legal flaws, there’s more than a grain of truth in the official assertion.

Amid the mayhem and anarchy, a decisive factor in the Tibetan equation has gone practically unnoticed: Key major players did not join or support the protests:

-- The Panchen Lama, a top prelate of the Gelugpa or Yellow Hat school, second in rank only to the Dalai Lama himself, has spoken in no uncertain terms against the rioting and instead backed the government.

-- Leaders of the Nyingma and Sakya schools, as well as the native Bon religion, did not endorse the protests and are tight-lipped about the wave of arrests.

-- Laymen with the re-ascendant Kagyupa or Black Hat school, are furious with the Dalai Lama after being targeted by Gelugpa supporters during the horsemen’s raid on the Hezuo local district office in south Gansu and in several counties in Sichuan Province.

In this negative light, the rallies by the Gelugpa monks seemed a desperate bid to reassert the Dalai Lama’s authority by accusing their Tibetan rivals of being “collaborators” and presenting themselves as the “resistance.” Due to the unintended violence, however, the Yellow Hats find themselves as the odd man out. Following the crackdown, rival sects are moving to dismantle the remnants of the Gelugpa organization, which had the monopoly of power over the Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR) and other districts as recently as five years ago.

If the façade of Tibetan unity was convenient, it now no longer serves.

In January 2000, the Chinese view of the Dalai Lama started to undergo a radical change during the affair known as the “Flight of the Karmapa” - covered in a documentary by Nachtvision. The Karmapa is the head lama of the Kagyupa, or Black Hat school, which ruled Tibet until the reign of the 5th Dalai Lama began in 1642.

At the turn of the millennium, the teenage Karmapa, born Ogyen Trinley Dorje, began a secret journey from his seat in Tsurphu monastery, west of Lhasa, to Sikkim in north India to recover the mystic Black Crown of the Kagyupa. In the bid to strengthen his nomination against other contenders, the Karmapa rode horseback on a tortuous path through the frozen wilderness of Nepal’s Mustang region. At the 4,500-meters altitude Thorong-La Pass, he was separated from his Nepalese Kagyupa guide and whisked aboard a mountain-rescue helicopter. He soon turned up under virtual house arrest near the Dalai Lama’s headquarters in Dharamsala, India.

As told by his guide, the Venerable Gyaltsen Rimpoche, nicknamed the “Tall Manangi,” the Ogyen Trinley had to retrieve the charismatic crown because “in Lhasa the Karmapa was rising and becoming more popular, so the Gelugpa did not like it and the situation was becoming dangerous for him.” Only the magic talisman could turn the tables on the powerful Yellow Hats.

In the eyes of many Kagyupa monks, the Karmapa has been abducted by the Dalai Lama’s exile government and remains a hostage to the senior leader of a rival sect. The Black Hats responded furiously with demands to Beijing that Gelugpa monks should be stripped of their control over the Tibet province budget and other privileges.

Feeling sorely betrayed by the Dalai Lama, who had earlier backed the appointment of Orgyen Trinley as Karmapa, Beijing consented to the Black Hat’s harsh demands. Thus ended the Yellow Hats’ monopoly on power inside Tibet. Since then, the local governments of many Tibetan zones have been taken over by laymen loyal to the Black Hats. Hezuo, the scene of the horsemen’s well-publicized raid, is the site of the Kagyupa’s Milarepa Shrine. Horses were used in the attack because the raiders came from the Xiahe district, the stronghold of the rival Gelugpa’s Labrang Monastery.

This realignment of sectarian power in Tibet, which can be compared with the Protestant Reformation in Europe, is only now coming to light in public discourse after the Lhasa riots. A People’s Daily editorial, titled “No return to old Tibet” (March 18), stated: “the political exile (Dalai Lama) has continued his rule with an iron fist that smashes any challenge to his power from anyone or any sect. . . . Local Tibetans have managed their affairs well without his interference.”

In private, many exiles across the Himalayas, including former Khampa guerrillas who fought the Chinese army in the 1960s, recount disturbing allegations of the Dalai Lama’s security team's involvement in the murdering of his critics by poisoning and bombing. This dark side of intra-Tibetan intrigue is yet to be factually uncovered before world opinion.

In an ultimate irony, the only person who can prevent the coming demolition and disgrace of the Gelugpa school is Gyeltshen Norbu, the Beijing-appointed Panchen Lama.

The Panchen Lama probably won’t rush to their defense, not after pro-Dharamsala lamas lobbied furiously against Beijing’s attempt to appoint the young lama as a delegate to the National People’s Congress, held in early March, arguing that he was not yet 18 years of age. To avoid controversy, Beijing reluctantly conceded, even though the official birth date of Gyeltshen Norbu was February 13, 1990, making him 18 and eligible.

The Panchen Lama is likely to receive Buddhist VIPs at the Beijing Olympics. An audience and blessing from the bright young monk will certainly win international support for his confirmation of the next reincarnation of the Dalai Lama. It is the traditional custom for the Panchen Lama to confirm the reincarnated Dalai Lama and vice versa. By contrast, high-ranking monks have scoffed at the Dalai Lama’s idea of forming a committee to elect a successor.

The recent uprising in Lhasa, despite its grim pathos, is a reminder of the tragic 1959 insurrection that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Tibetans. In both cases, the 14th Dalai Lama badly miscalculated the divisions among his own people, Beijing’s strategic determination, and the moral hypocrisy of the international community.

In the Buddhist view, all things come full circle. In the 17th century, the 5th Dalai Lama called in a Mongol general to overthrow the Karmapa’s theocracy. Today, the Karmapa’s men are ousting the Gelugpa power structure. Ceaseless change is unstoppable, taught Sakyamuni Buddha. Thus, attachment only results in suffering – our attachment to wealth, power, pride, respect and, most of all, to love, the meanest vice yet highest virtue of human existence. Not even his bitter opponents can dispute the deep love of His Holiness the Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso for his homeland, Tibet. How difficult it must be now, to let go.

Wow, excellent read. I have always known that the Dalai Lama's claim to be the sole spritual and political leader of Tibet is just a sham, but never had such detailed information. Thanks!

I have noticed that the city of Shigatse (the second largest city in Tibet and the headquarters of the Panchen Lama) is totally peaceful and unaffected during the latest riots. And the monks of Tashi Lunpo monastery (Panchen's boys) are also uninvolved. Maybe China should move the capital of Tibet to Shigatse instead, hehe.

Dalai has sure pissed off a lot of people this time. The Muslims are furious too. Lhasa's Muslims were actually planning reprisal attacks on the Tibetans and wanted to burn down the Jokhang Temple, and the police had to move in quickly to nip it in the bud. I wonder what Al Quaeda thinks of him. Hmmmm.

Dalai mis-calculated badly this time. China will simply wait for him to die. He may not even be able to die peacefully. He has already survived several assasination attempts by rival sects. And the radical Tibetan Youth Congress may get fed up with him and decide to get rid fo him too. Poor guy, I'm actually feeling a little sorry for him.

[yeo]

Originally Posted by wizkid83
Actually, how much money is poured into Tibet is probably not the best pure judgement. What I want to know is who is the PRIMARY benefeciary of the construction. The Panama Canal cost the U.S. a lot of money to make, but a the fruit went mostly to U.S. also, thus the protest and the eventual handover.

So the same thing can a be asked about Tibet, are the heads of the tourism and trade industry (as well as all comparable senior positions) in Tibet held by Hans or Tibetans, I don't know and I'm here more to seek knowledge. What I'm trying to say is if an average Tibetan now have the means to open a small shop on the side of the road, sees the opening the supermarket next door by a Han and he sees little or no chance of doing that, then you have a problem.

You mention test scores and I think that's a good start. I'm hoping that comaprable scholorships and stipens are gonna come with it (you can't just let them be in the college easier, but also offer the means to actually go to the college). Kind of like the affirmative action in the U.S., if .1% of aspiring Han youths can get into QinHua, atleast .5% of Tibetans need to be able to, and .2% would get a full ride (free tuition plus living expenses). Same thing for companies, atleast those in Tibet. The better positions and jobs need to have an accurate representation of the demographic break down with in the region. I.E. if Tibetans make up 50% of the population with in Tibet, then they need to (or have programs to actively get to) be at a point where they makeup 50% of the heads of the corporations/companies/etc.

Personally, I think things like that will make the situation in Tibet smoother. I don't claim to know much about Tibet, so informations around economic/educational/social/financial break down of Tibet by Han and Tibetans would be great. I actually don't care much about editorials (from both sides), show me hard numbers.

Just wanted to point out that you make an excellent point. As some more astute western observers have pointed out, the latest riots are much more about economics than about religion or Dalai. The ones rioting were the under-privileged ones, and the Tibetans voicing support for the government appear to be the upper and middle classes.

I believe the government do offer a lot of affirmative action programs to Tibetans, so much so that there have already been complaints from Han Chinese that the government is "coddling" the Tibetans. But I also believe the Han and Hui migrants into Tibet do receive a disproportionate amount of the economic benefits. One reason is simply that the Tibetans are less entrepreneurial, especially compared to these fearless Han and Hui pioneers, who have left behind everything to go to a forbidding place in search of fortune.

A second reason is the problem of language. The Tibetans must be fluent in Mandarin (and preferably English as well) in order to compete in today's world. I think one serious mistake that the government has made in recent years was that they have bowed to international pressure over the so-called preservation of Tibetan culture and scaled back Mandarin education in Tibet and promoted more Tibetan schools. The graduates of these schools have no hope of competing with Hans or even other Tibetan who do speak Mandarin.

So I think the governmet should continue with the economic development policies in Tibet, but pay even more attention to spreading the benefits around. And please don't listen to those brainless farts who want to "preserve" Tibet as a quaint little theme park for their own viewing pleasure.

Sorry I don't have the hard numbers you demanded and can only "editorialize", hehe.

[yeo]

criminals list (http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/200803/news-gb2312-548082.html)
these are the top criminals in this riot. weird thing is, the guy in the 4th picture. the one with the silver colored coat. ya, i have been wearing the exact coat. how the hell did he get that? it was like over $100 dollars when i bought it a few years back. let me assure you, it's not me. :D

Hmm, are you sure it's not you? Did you know that "number 4" happens to be the only one on the list who has turned himself in so far? Coincidence? I don't think so. Ladies and gentleman, I think we have caught a government agent provocateur! :D

[yeo]

China Tensions Could Sway Vote in Taiwan



This is off topic, but it looks like the Taiwanese voters are not as stupid as the New York Times thought they would be. The pro-unification Taiwan opposition party triumphs in today's presidential election with a land-slide win!

[yeo]

I might as well spread some more Chinese government propaganda, since I have been constantly accused of doing so anyway. :D

CCTV-9's English-language documentary on the Lhasa riots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_prFMROC8&eurl=http://www.wforum.com/wmf/posts/1115790830.html)

CCTV-9 Documentary on Lhasa Riots (Part II) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiVunJBIGoM&feature=related)

[yeo]

From what I read on Chinese BBS and forums, there is a strong sentiment of ethnic hatred among ethnic Hans toward ethnic Tibetians. There is also strong hatred toward the West as many people see the West as the backers of Dalai Lama and the Tibetian independent movement. The feeling is that the West is trying to sabotage China in the Olympic year by playing up the Tibetian crackdown and the West's ultimate goal is to curb China's development and prevent it from becoming a great nation. This feeling is especially strong among young Chinese, evident by the posts on many universitys' BBS's.

I was in university in China when the Tibetian protests of 1987 happend and when the Beijing student demonstration/protests happened in 1989. There was a very different feeling back then. Most ordinary Chinese people, especially the young people, did not agree with the goverment's actions back then. I remember talking to many young people who supported the Tibetians' causes. That feeling seems to have vanished today and replaced by a strong and even dangerous nationalist zeal.

I think at some point the West needs to re-examine its China policy. What has happend in the last 20 years that have dramatically shifted the public opinions among the Chinese toward the West?

I will tell you what happened. China is more open to the West now and a lot of Chinese have come to the West in the last 20 years, and they have frankly been disillusioned by what they saw. They were fed up with the CCP's lies back home, but then they came to the West and realized that the CCP weren't the only liars. :D The rapid economic development of the last 20 years and growing self-confidence also have something to do with it.

[foofy]

I might as well spread some more Chinese government propaganda, since I have been constantly accused of doing so anyway. :D

CCTV-9's English-language documentary on the Lhasa riots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_prFMROC8&eurl=http://www.wforum.com/wmf/posts/1115790830.html)

CCTV-9 Documentary on Lhasa Riots (Part II) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiVunJBIGoM&feature=related)

:mad: ...did L.A. Riot mobs attacked ambulans and six year old child? :mad:

[yeo]

I will tell you what happened. China is more open to the West now and a lot of Chinese have come to the West in the last 20 years, and they have frankly been disillusioned by what they saw. They were fed up with the CCP's lies back home, but then they came to the West and realized that the CCP weren't the only liars. :D The rapid economic development of the last 20 years and growing self-confidence also have something to do with it.

Just to illustrate my point, here is a letter-to-the-editor, apparently written by a well-educated young Chinese working in the West, in response to a Bloomberg article. I think he summarizes and represents the views and feelings of today's young Chinese fairly well.

Mr. William Pesek,

I read your article about the link between Beijing Olympics and Tibet riots. I found your outrage ridiculous.

Any person without a deep bias against China would see China government stopped the riots only after rioters exerted horrible violence and vandalism. Innocent Han, Hui, and Tibetan people got killed. Five young girls were burnt to death in a shop. Bank branches, restaurants, shops, vehicles, and buildings were set on fire and looted. The situation got so severe that even the infamous LA riot is nothing compared to the scale of riots in Lhasa. Remind me what the U.S. government did facing the LA riot? Yeah, you are right. It's crackdown. And if that's too distant a memory for you, I think you must remember how the French government crushed riots in France several years ago. No government would allow riots to disturb the social stability and threaten the safety of lives and properties. Please don't impose your double standard. Open your eyes and see what really happened in Tibet.

I can tell you, how the western media responded to the Tibet riot has disillusioned a lot of young people. Some young people, like myself 10 years ago, thought the west must be filled with idealism,democracy,prosperity, and fairness. Well, if I have to put one adjective on how western media has reported the riot ,the only word I can think of is "prejudice". China riot police used the maximum restraint in dealing with the disgusting riots and you guys still call it bloody crackdown of PROTESTERS. In your dictionary, "rioter" and "protester" are obviously 100% interchangeable. Some young men have summarized many reports from western media persons like you. Let me tell you what. CNN covered portions of a picture and made it look like military vehicles were moving in and people were scared away. The covered part is actually a vivid display of many rioters throwing stones at military vehicles. Remind me if there's anything ever happening like that in the U.S. I mean, military vehicles were under the siege of rioters without firing back. It's unimaginable. But it happened in China. What kind of restraint do you guys expect? Let China messed up and the social stability undermined? I do believe lots of you secretly root for that with all your biased reports and comments. Some newspapers pushed bias and smearing to a new level by publishing pictures of Naples police beating demonstrators and indicating they were "Chinese police". Are you kidding me?

On the flip side, this is not necessarily a bad thing for China. It's actually a reminder that some western powers still hold the animosity and bias against China and they won't give China a fair shake, especially when China is stronger and stronger and some of the western world is very anxious about that development from a strategic competitor's perspective. I guess our people need to discover that. This world is not an ideal one yet. It's still to some degree a jungle. And the performance of the western media educated many Chinese people about that cold and hard fact over the past several days.

As to your linking Beijing Olympics to politics, I guess it's a good thing too. As an enthusiastic supporter of Beijing Olympics, I have always hoped that the Olympics game would be a good stage bridging the west and China and making each other better understood. Animosity won't help. Only cultural exchange and open mind will help. But you know what? If the west doesn't want to give up animosity, so be it. It's no big deal. Olympics is just a party. It's an option, but not a necessity. The bottom line is that our sovereignty can't be compromised in any form. These two matters should not even be mentioned in the same sentence. We Chinese people have this consensus: Olympics is nothing compared to our sovereignty and our land. China is big and strong enough to guarantee that.

Seriously, boycott of Olympics, if that ever happens, will only help China. Chinese people will remember how their party is spoiled and hijacked. It's free education how other people try to corner you and make you feel bad when you have nothing other than good will. Strangely, I like that scenario more and more now. Some boycotts from western royalties? So what?! We don't like them any way. They remind me of Opium War. Without them as VIP guests, I'd feel much better. Please stay away. Pleeeeeease.

And your deploring Taiwan's democracy seems to me your deep disappointment that Taiwan might not have a pro-independence leader after the election. Quote: "That's why the U.S. will invade Iraq to foster democracy, while praying that already democratic Taiwan doesn't rock the boat. " End Quote. Obviously you think Taiwan's democracy is healthy only when Taiwan does rock the boat and China is unstable.

You know, I write this letter to you not really trying to persuade you. I'm a financial worker and often read Bloomberg articles. From reading some of your articles, I already learned that you are a pro-Japan and anti-China type. It would be naive for me to try to change your deep-rooted bias. But I want to voice my strong opposition to you just so you know that Chinese people are not insensitive to the ridiculous bias against us. We know we need to improve our economic and political systems. But we'll make sure we won't let those foreign interests with a secret agenda influence us and we won't allow any reforms in price of China sovereignty or national interests. WE'LL PROTECT OUR OWN INTERESTS IN ANY CASE.

A Chinese Bloomberg Reader

[yuantian]

Hmm, are you sure it's not you? Did you know that "number 4" happens to be the only one on the list who has turned himself in so far? Coincidence? I don't think so. Ladies and gentleman, I think we have caught a government agent provocateur! :D

oh really? :D

[tigermission1]

The French government did not "crush" the riots as the letter claims.

[hooroo]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5htvXFVXFU9IYGq_puO361I1TfbpA
Defiant China rejects dialogue, vows to smash Tibetan protests

BEIJING (AFP) — China turned its back Saturday on appeals for dialogue with the Dalai Lama, vowing to smash anti-China forces in Tibet, where it said the death toll from recent unrest had risen to 19.

A day after Beijing launched a manhunt for monks and others it blamed for violence in Tibet, an editorial in the People's Daily, mouthpiece of the Chinese Communist party, said opposition to Chinese rule in the Himalayan region must be wiped out.

"China must resolutely crush the conspiracy of sabotage and smash 'Tibet independence forces'," the newspaper said in the editorial, rejecting calls from US, European and Asian leaders for talks.

The commentary accused the Dalai Lama of masterminding protests in Tibet in the hope of undermining the August 8-24 Beijing Olympics and gaining Tibet independence from Beijing.

It said that "1.3 billion Chinese people, including the Tibetan people, would allow no person or force to undermine the stability of the region."

The commentary effectively rebuffed growing international calls for dialogue to end the crackdown on protests that began last week to mark the anniversary of a 1959 uprising against Beijing's rule.

But Tibet's government-in-exile on Saturday said talks between China and the Dalai Lama were crucial.

"Talks are more necessary than ever before," Thubten Samphel, spokesman for the administration, told AFP. "China has always pursued this hard line and very forceful military solutions to the problems in Tibet, and these have never worked," he said.

Earlier Saturday, China said 18 "innocent" civilians and one police officer were killed in rioting in the Tibetan capital, Lhasa, raising its official death toll from 13.

Tibet's government-in-exile in the Indian hill town of Dharamshala has put the toll from a week of unrest across the Himalayan region and neighbouring provinces at 99.

On Friday, leaders in Japan and Poland joined the United States and other countries in an international appeal for restraint and dialogue.

They were joined on Saturday by 30 prominent Chinese writers and intellectuals who signed a letter to their government urging talks with the Tibetan spiritual leader.

They also called on China to open Tibet up to foreign media and to allow a team of independent UN investigators to carry out a full investigation of "the evidence, the course of the incident, the number of casualties, etc.".

The signatories, who included Liu Xiaobo, Teng Biao, Wang Qisheng and other noted rights activists, also said China should show evidence it says it possesses that proves the Dalai Lama was behind the uprising.

US House of Representatives speaker Nancy Pelosi has also demanded that China come clean on repression in Tibet.

"The situation in Tibet is a challenge to the conscience of the world," said Pelosi, who was greeted in Dharamshala by thousands of flag-waving Tibetan exiles as she arrived for talks Friday with Tibet's exiled spiritual leader.

"What is happening, the world needs to know," she said.

However, China has responded to the protests with a massive clampdown on the affected areas, and on Friday released a most-wanted list of 19 people caught on film taking part in the Lhasa riots, amid warnings by activist groups of harsh reprisals.

Outside China, street demonstrations against the crackdown in Tibet continued on Saturday in Tokyo, where 600 people took to the streets.

On Friday protesters in Paris burned Chinese flags, while demonstrators in New Delhi stormed the Chinese embassy.

The protests come with less than five months to go before the Beijing Olympics, which is becoming a magnet for more protests over Tibet and other issues.

On Monday the symbolic start to events leading up to the Games is scheduled to take place in Greece on Monday when the Olympic flame is lit.

The so-called sacred Olympic flame is to be lit during a 30-minute ritual in the presence of International Olympic Committee president Jacques Rogge, whose organisation has been sharply criticised for its silence on the Tibet crackdown.

Greek police told AFP that "stringent security" would be applied to deter anti-China protests during the ceremony.

After a tour of Greece, the flame will travel to Beijing for an official send-off ceremony on March 31 for the torch relay on its journey across five continents.

It then returns to China in May for the start of a domestic leg that includes three days in Tibet in mid-June after a scheduled stop at the summit of Mount Everest.

Pro-Tibet groups have said they are planning protests along the international route of the relay and in China.

Beijing insists such protests run counter to the Olympic Charter, which opposes using the Games for political propaganda.

[hooroo]

Does the Chinese govt and ppl in general still hold grudges against the Western-Euro powers for the near colonialization, forced opium trade, etc. ?

If so - I would understand why they would tell the West to go eff themselves when someone like Pelosi starts making demands.

I think that is a factor in all of this.

What you posted is scary. That's how White Power groups argue.

[Ottomaton]

You've got a weird sense of humor, like how you suggest genocide to solve problems between countries.

You seem to have a difficult time grasping many of the rhetorical devices of the English language. I would be glad provide lessons to you for a nominal fee so you can understand what people are saying.

We can cover topics such as:

irony
sarcasm
simile and metaphor
allusion
hyperbole
alliteration

..and numerous other linguistic tools. I'm sure it could be of great benifit to you as these seem to cause you so much confusion.

[newplayer]

You seem to have a difficult time grasping many of the rhetorical devices of the English language. I would be glad provide lessons to you for a nominal fee so you can understand what people are saying.

We can cover topics such as:

irony
sarcasm
simile and metaphor
allusion
hyperbole
alliteration

..and numerous other linguistic tools. I'm sure it could be of great benifit to you as these seem to cause you so much confusion.


you seem to have a rather difficult time understanding any of the good human qualities. I'd be glad to educate you on them but I'm afraid that you might not get the message anyway. However, for the sake of human society, let's start with the following:

* honesty
* fairness
* modesty
* patience
* self-restraint

I hope that you and some of your country men could all participate in my lessons, and hopefully your wonderful country could avoid being involved in tragedies such as going into wars on false pretenses or having your city attacked by disgruntled foreign nationals.

Which lesson would you prefer me to start first?

[langal]

What you posted is scary. That's how White Power groups argue.

I might be wrong but I think you just want to argue for arguments sake...

so blacks in the US don't at all harbor some resentment towards whites for past injustices?

Native Americans in the US are completely trustworthy of the Federal government?

African nations aren't at all resentful towards their former colonial overlords?

Are foreign governments supposed to agree with everything the Western powers demand?

Past injustices are remembered.

I dunno if you are at all familiar with Chinese history but a lot people there understandably are suspicious of Western motives. I'm not making a statement about Tibet in particular, but just saying that they do not howtow to US policies. It may help us in the West to better understand the basis for the low levels of anti-Western antipathy that China may harbor and how they might laugh at us when we (the former invaders who posted "NO DOGS AND CHINESE ALLOWED" signs in ShangHai) talk about human rights.

Yes I know that this is "ancient" history but so is slavery in the US.

Heck, China can bring forth a Golden Age in Tibet and Tibetans 200 years from now will still always harbor deep felt resentment (rightfully or wrongfully).

[foofy]

Cyber Voices on Tibet - A Search For Balance

New America Media, News analysis, Xujun Eberlein, Posted: Mar 21, 2008

http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=0db406a8bd056cbbd2119742f01dba4 a

[foofy]

CIA's Secret War in Tibet
In a top secret and still little-known, decade-long 'war at the top of the world,' the CIA fostered, trained and supplied a tenacious Tibetian resistance force in its struggle against the Communist Chinese.
By Joe Bageant

http://www.historynet.com/magazines/military_history/3025986.html

[rocketsjudoka]

Of course that's his position now. He is in a position in which he has no bargaining chip. The CCP holds all the cards. If this continues Dalai risks dying outside of Tibet, aside from total irrelevance.



They've already done that. And now that they hold all the cards (along with Dalai's flip-flopping ways), I'm sure they see no need to further negotiate.



In case you didn't notice, he's running a theocracy right now. But you can take whatever he says at face value if you so desire.

If the Dalai Lama is as irrelevent or a flip flopper as you say then what does the PRC have to lose with negotiating with him? Why bother to continue to paint him as public enemy number one?

The PRC could silence much of their foreign critics by simply negotiating with the Dalai Lama yet they go out of their way not to. That tells me that they don't consider him irrelevent and fear his influence more than they fear looking bad in foreign eyes even if that means it might tarnish the Olympics.


Consider open attacks on governmental facilities in as recent as the 50's by its predecessors, ETIM's influence has already been curbed significantly.

So I guess that attempted hijacking by Uighars was just a random event or the continued high state of security in Xizang.

[rocketsjudoka]

I believe that is also the position he holds.

If you reread the post I was responding to that was the essentially what it was saying. As far as whether I have stated that the Han are exterminating Tibetans I don't recall ever making that statement. I will say for the record I don't believe the PRC is deliberately trying to exterminate the Tibetans physically but I will say that PRC policies are leading to a passive extermination of Tibetan culture and Tibetan society currently and that in the past there were active attempts by the PRC to wipe out Tibetan society and culture.

[rocketsjudoka]

nope. using the same logic, eventhough the Chinese got the chance to exploit and exterminate the Tibetans that does not make it right for the Tibetans to kill chinese people and set shops and banks on fire.

I don't think anybody is saying that especially the Dalai Lama who has condemned the violence.

[MR. MEOWGI]

China should allow demonstrations in Tibet - U.N.

http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-32493820080314

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour expressed concern about developments in Tibet on Friday and urged the Chinese government to allow protesters to demonstrate peacefully.

"The high commissioner urges the government of China to allow demonstrators to exercise their right to freedom of expression and assembly, to refrain from any excessive use of force while maintaining order and to ensure that those arrested are not ill treated," Arbour's office said in a statement.






Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet

By Richard Spencer in Beijing
Last Updated: 1:58am GMT 24/03/2008

A group of Chinese writers, dissidents and lawyers has braved the threat of government retribution and the hostility of angry nationalists by calling for talks with the Dalai Lama and an end to the propaganda war over Tibet.

The open letter, written by 29 leading intellectuals, said that the unrest showed that China's policy towards Tibet had failed.

The Dalai Lama: Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet
The letter calls for open dialogue with the Dalai Lama

It added that it was time to allow freedom of speech and religion, to invite the media and the United Nations human rights commission into the region and to hold direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

It also singled out the increasingly strident response of both the government and ordinary Chinese, at home and abroad, for criticism.

"The one-sided propaganda of the official Chinese media is having the effect of stirring up inter-ethnic animosity and aggravating an already tense situation," it said.

"Adopting a posture of aggressive nationalism will only invite antipathy from the international community and harm China's international image."

The likely response to the letter from the government can be judged by its fresh attacks on the Dalai Lama yesterday.
advertisement

People's Daily, the mouthpiece of the Communist Party, said the non-violent stance of "the Dalai clique" was "an outright lie from start to end".

It added: "The Dalai Lama is scheming to take the Beijing Olympics hostage to force the Chinese government to make concessions to Tibet independence."

The Dalai Lama yesterday rejected the accusation, saying he had "always supported" the Olympics taking place in China.

The government regards the Tibet issue as among its most sensitive political issues, and even its fiercest domestic opponents normally steer clear.

Media have been ordered to use only nationally approved reports on the unrest, which closely follow the government's position - even though this has led to the government's version of events emerging slowly and without clarity.

Meanwhile internet postings critical of the government have been removed or blocked.

The letter's signatories, who include some of the greatest thorns in Beijing's flesh, are taking a particularly severe risk.

Ding Zilin, mother of Jiang Jielian who was killed during student unrest in 1989: Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet
Signatory: Ding Zilin, mother of Jiang Jielian who was killed by troops during student protests in 1989

Ding Zilin is the leader of the Mothers of Tiananmen, which represents the parents of those who died in the crackdown on student unrest in 1989. Teng Biao is a lawyer and part of the defence team for Hu Jia, a dissident who went on trial for subversion last week.

Before the trial, Mr Teng was briefly abducted and threatened by unknown assailants

The Olympics torch relay was also hit when a Thai environmental activist, Narisa Chakrabongse, who was to have taken part, said she was pulling out in protest.

China's army of internet politicians has rallied round the government. Some have set up websites and posted films to expose what they see as Western media bias, drawing attention to photographs of police breaking up protests that appeared to be taken in Tibet but were, in fact, taken in Nepal.

Some unleash angry obscenities, and say that China's critics are welcome to stay away from the Olympics. "If you don't want to come, don't!" says one. "If you don't want to participate, don't!"

However, with the opposing view being censored, it is hard to tell to what extent such attitudes reflect popular opinion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/24/wchina124.xml

[yuantian]

China should allow demonstrations in Tibet - U.N.

http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-32493820080314

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour expressed concern about developments in Tibet on Friday and urged the Chinese government to allow protesters to demonstrate peacefully.

"The high commissioner urges the government of China to allow demonstrators to exercise their right to freedom of expression and assembly, to refrain from any excessive use of force while maintaining order and to ensure that those arrested are not ill treated," Arbour's office said in a statement.






Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet

By Richard Spencer in Beijing
Last Updated: 1:58am GMT 24/03/2008

A group of Chinese writers, dissidents and lawyers has braved the threat of government retribution and the hostility of angry nationalists by calling for talks with the Dalai Lama and an end to the propaganda war over Tibet.

The open letter, written by 29 leading intellectuals, said that the unrest showed that China's policy towards Tibet had failed.

The Dalai Lama: Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet
The letter calls for open dialogue with the Dalai Lama

It added that it was time to allow freedom of speech and religion, to invite the media and the United Nations human rights commission into the region and to hold direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

It also singled out the increasingly strident response of both the government and ordinary Chinese, at home and abroad, for criticism.

"The one-sided propaganda of the official Chinese media is having the effect of stirring up inter-ethnic animosity and aggravating an already tense situation," it said.

"Adopting a posture of aggressive nationalism will only invite antipathy from the international community and harm China's international image."

The likely response to the letter from the government can be judged by its fresh attacks on the Dalai Lama yesterday.
advertisement

People's Daily, the mouthpiece of the Communist Party, said the non-violent stance of "the Dalai clique" was "an outright lie from start to end".

It added: "The Dalai Lama is scheming to take the Beijing Olympics hostage to force the Chinese government to make concessions to Tibet independence."

The Dalai Lama yesterday rejected the accusation, saying he had "always supported" the Olympics taking place in China.

The government regards the Tibet issue as among its most sensitive political issues, and even its fiercest domestic opponents normally steer clear.

Media have been ordered to use only nationally approved reports on the unrest, which closely follow the government's position - even though this has led to the government's version of events emerging slowly and without clarity.

Meanwhile internet postings critical of the government have been removed or blocked.

The letter's signatories, who include some of the greatest thorns in Beijing's flesh, are taking a particularly severe risk.

Ding Zilin, mother of Jiang Jielian who was killed during student unrest in 1989: Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet
Signatory: Ding Zilin, mother of Jiang Jielian who was killed by troops during student protests in 1989

Ding Zilin is the leader of the Mothers of Tiananmen, which represents the parents of those who died in the crackdown on student unrest in 1989. Teng Biao is a lawyer and part of the defence team for Hu Jia, a dissident who went on trial for subversion last week.

Before the trial, Mr Teng was briefly abducted and threatened by unknown assailants

The Olympics torch relay was also hit when a Thai environmental activist, Narisa Chakrabongse, who was to have taken part, said she was pulling out in protest.

China's army of internet politicians has rallied round the government. Some have set up websites and posted films to expose what they see as Western media bias, drawing attention to photographs of police breaking up protests that appeared to be taken in Tibet but were, in fact, taken in Nepal.

Some unleash angry obscenities, and say that China's critics are welcome to stay away from the Olympics. "If you don't want to come, don't!" says one. "If you don't want to participate, don't!"

However, with the opposing view being censored, it is hard to tell to what extent such attitudes reflect popular opinion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/24/wchina124.xml


there are a lot of hate towards those dissents from a lot of the people. i doubt the government is going to listen.

i am not sure if negotiation is the best way to go. the priority right now is to get everything back to normal. talk or no talk, probably will be decided after the Olympics. there are some power struggle within the exile community as well as within Tibet with different schools. some are not loyal to Dalai.

[tracy hong]

China should allow demonstrations in Tibet - U.N.

http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-32493820080314

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour expressed concern about developments in Tibet on Friday and urged the Chinese government to allow protesters to demonstrate peacefully.

"The high commissioner urges the government of China to allow demonstrators to exercise their right to freedom of expression and assembly, to refrain from any excessive use of force while maintaining order and to ensure that those arrested are not ill treated," Arbour's office said in a statement.






Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet

By Richard Spencer in Beijing
Last Updated: 1:58am GMT 24/03/2008

A group of Chinese writers, dissidents and lawyers has braved the threat of government retribution and the hostility of angry nationalists by calling for talks with the Dalai Lama and an end to the propaganda war over Tibet.

The open letter, written by 29 leading intellectuals, said that the unrest showed that China's policy towards Tibet had failed.

The Dalai Lama: Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet
The letter calls for open dialogue with the Dalai Lama

It added that it was time to allow freedom of speech and religion, to invite the media and the United Nations human rights commission into the region and to hold direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

It also singled out the increasingly strident response of both the government and ordinary Chinese, at home and abroad, for criticism.

"The one-sided propaganda of the official Chinese media is having the effect of stirring up inter-ethnic animosity and aggravating an already tense situation," it said.

"Adopting a posture of aggressive nationalism will only invite antipathy from the international community and harm China's international image."

The likely response to the letter from the government can be judged by its fresh attacks on the Dalai Lama yesterday.
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People's Daily, the mouthpiece of the Communist Party, said the non-violent stance of "the Dalai clique" was "an outright lie from start to end".

It added: "The Dalai Lama is scheming to take the Beijing Olympics hostage to force the Chinese government to make concessions to Tibet independence."

The Dalai Lama yesterday rejected the accusation, saying he had "always supported" the Olympics taking place in China.

The government regards the Tibet issue as among its most sensitive political issues, and even its fiercest domestic opponents normally steer clear.

Media have been ordered to use only nationally approved reports on the unrest, which closely follow the government's position - even though this has led to the government's version of events emerging slowly and without clarity.

Meanwhile internet postings critical of the government have been removed or blocked.

The letter's signatories, who include some of the greatest thorns in Beijing's flesh, are taking a particularly severe risk.

Ding Zilin, mother of Jiang Jielian who was killed during student unrest in 1989: Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet
Signatory: Ding Zilin, mother of Jiang Jielian who was killed by troops during student protests in 1989

Ding Zilin is the leader of the Mothers of Tiananmen, which represents the parents of those who died in the crackdown on student unrest in 1989. Teng Biao is a lawyer and part of the defence team for Hu Jia, a dissident who went on trial for subversion last week.

Before the trial, Mr Teng was briefly abducted and threatened by unknown assailants

The Olympics torch relay was also hit when a Thai environmental activist, Narisa Chakrabongse, who was to have taken part, said she was pulling out in protest.

China's army of internet politicians has rallied round the government. Some have set up websites and posted films to expose what they see as Western media bias, drawing attention to photographs of police breaking up protests that appeared to be taken in Tibet but were, in fact, taken in Nepal.

Some unleash angry obscenities, and say that China's critics are welcome to stay away from the Olympics. "If you don't want to come, don't!" says one. "If you don't want to participate, don't!"

However, with the opposing view being censored, it is hard to tell to what extent such attitudes reflect popular opinion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/24/wchina124.xml


they are only a extremely tiny number of Chinese people...could be numbered ...more of dissidents than intellectuals...i feel sympathy for them that their parents were killed in that students riot....however, i really feel disgust with their statements under such conditions....sort of like traitor

[yeo]

Chinese intellectuals call for talks with Tibet


These are the usual suspects, regularly paraded out by the western media to criticise the Chinese government, on whatever issue of the moment. They not only have no influence with the government, they have also been totally discreditted in the eyes of the people.

[Deckard]

they are only a extremely tiny number of Chinese people...could be numbered ...more of dissidents than intellectuals...i feel sympathy for them that their parents were killed in that students riot....however, i really feel disgust with their statements under such conditions....sort of like traitor


These are the usual suspects, regularly paraded out by the western media to criticise the Chinese government, on whatever issue of the moment. They not only have no influence with the government, they have also been totally discreditted in the eyes of the people.
Both of you, with all due respect, sound like Karl Rove, George W. Bush's master of spin, attacking those against the folly in Iraq. Accusing them of being "traitors" because they disagree with government policy. Attempting to demonize those in opposition to government policy by attacking their patriotism is the very essense of failed government policy. Nothing shows that failed policy more, in my opinion, than an assault on those who disagree with that policy by the use of extreme allegations orchestrated by the government. Instead of having a national discussion involving all sides on the issue, attack those who dare to disagree with the government by attacking their patriotism. One could argue that disagreeing with the government is an act of pariotism... the government is intended to serve the people and the country, not the people and the country becoming servants of the government, but that is what we are seeing in China.

Rather than demonize those in China who disagree with government policy towards Tibet, you should have an open, wide-ranging dialogue on the region and move towards a long term solutution to Tibet that preserves Tibetan culture, provides autonomy, and continues China's sovereignty. Those are not, in my opinion, mutually exclusive, and would be of great benefit to China and the people of Tibet. In my opinion, of course.




Impeach Bush and Send Him to Tibet to Report the News!

[michecon]

Read the piece by Economist correspondent, who actually was there when riot started, or the ripoff piece by NYT. The government response was delayed, more cautious than usual, if anything.

Good job CNN and others "reporting" with bits of "evidence" and "sources" in weaving your usual theories.

[SamFisher]

^I love how people bitch about foreign news coverage of Tibet - when the PRC basically bans foreign journalists from reporting in Tibet.

If they have nothing to hide, let them in.

As of right now they're not letting anybody in. I wonder why...oh no I don't.

[MFW]

If the Dalai Lama is as irrelevent or a flip flopper as you say then what does the PRC have to lose with negotiating with him? Why bother to continue to paint him as public enemy number one?

The PRC could silence much of their foreign critics by simply negotiating with the Dalai Lama yet they go out of their way not to. That tells me that they don't consider him irrelevent and fear his influence more than they fear looking bad in foreign eyes even if that means it might tarnish the Olympics.


And do what? If Dalai really wanted to negotiate, he had the perfect opportunity under Hu Yaobang. We all know how that turned out. One of them is not on the politically scene any more. Any further attempt to negotiate with Dalai would only give him an aura of legitimacy, to be used when he flip flops again.

Quite frankly Dalai is quite irrelevant. Know why? What he says or does doesn't affect China's policy in Tibet one bit. They can simply wait for him to die. I'm sure the CCP would love to host the Olympics and look good in the eyes of the west (a good start would be to become a good lapdog). But this isn't about saving face, it is realpolitik. The CCP is not going to worry about looking good when China's sovereignty is challenged. That's something I think a lot of people in the west should get really clear on.


So I guess that attempted hijacking by Uighars was just a random event or the continued high state of security in Xizang.

As supposed to, what? 100's of hijack attempts in the 50's? The bottom line is, situation in Xinjiang improve significantly since that period.

You see to be of the opinion that negotiation and dialog solves everything. It doesn't. You negotiate when you actually have the chance to achieve something.

^I love how people bitch about foreign news coverage of Tibet - when the PRC basically bans foreign journalists from reporting in Tibet.

If they have nothing to hide, let them in.

As of right now they're not letting anybody in. I wonder why...oh no I don't.

Ah, but the devil's in the detail isn't it. China never actually claimed to have "free media" or "freedom of speech." So if "free" foreign media twist the truth for their purpose, why do you expect the Chinese not to?

I know one thing the Chinese media won't do though. They try to hide certain events, they try to twist the truth, but they don't actually have a history of outright lying or they'd never hear the end of it.

For "free media" of the west though, apparently anything is game.

[Ottomaton]

Ah, but the devil's in the detail isn't it. China never actually claimed to have "free media" or "freedom of speech." So if "free" foreign media twist the truth for their purpose, why do you expect the Chinese not to?


I guess you don't even know the Constitution of your own country?

source (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html)


CONSTITUTION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
...
CHAPTER II. THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF CITIZENS
...
Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

[MFW]

I guess you don't even know the Constitution of your own country?

source (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html)


CONSTITUTION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
...
CHAPTER II. THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF CITIZENS
...
Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.



I do. But you know what, according to the Chinese Constitution, the country should be socialist too.

Should I take everything I see at face value?

[tracy hong]

Both of you, with all due respect, sound like Karl Rove, George W. Bush's master of spin, attacking those against the folly in Iraq. Accusing them of being "traitors" because they disagree with government policy. Attempting to demonize those in opposition to government policy by attacking their patriotism is the very essense of failed government policy. Nothing shows that failed policy more, in my opinion, than an assault on those who disagree with that policy by the use of extreme allegations orchestrated by the government. Instead of having a national discussion involving all sides on the issue, attack those who dare to disagree with the government by attacking their patriotism. One could argue that disagreeing with the government is an act of pariotism... the government is intended to serve the people and the country, not the people and the country becoming servants of the government, but that is what we are seeing in China.

Rather than demonize those in China who disagree with government policy towards Tibet, you should have an open, wide-ranging dialogue on the region and move towards a long term solutution to Tibet that preserves Tibetan culture, provides autonomy, and continues China's sovereignty. Those are not, in my opinion, mutually exclusive, and would be of great benefit to China and the people of Tibet. In my opinion, of course.




Impeach Bush and Send Him to Tibet to Report the News!





you know what?? what i am pissed off is not these dissents, but the biased western media trying to take advantage of it!!!!

read this please
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/626e31e4-f9a0-11dc-9b7c-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

The Chinese government, which has accused the foreign media of underplaying the violence of the rioters, said it would allow a group of foreign reporters to visit Lhasa later this week. Tibet has largely been closed off to the media since the protests began two weeks ago.

A number of western news organsations in Beijing have been inundated with calls and faxes from Chinese angry at what they perceive to be bias in their coverage of the Tibet issue.

CNN reporters and producers were forced to vacate their office in Beijing last Friday and operate from a nearby hotel after their phone and fax system was overwhelmed by the volume of calls, including many threats of violence.

The CNN office number and address, in an old diplomatic compound in central Beijing, had been posted on internet bulletin boards, accompanied by calls to bombard the office with complaints.

CNN reports about Tibet can be seen by very few Chinese, as foreign satellite channels are restricted to approved compounds and hotels. On sensitive issues like Tibet, the individual reports have often been blocked by Chinese censors as well.

However, versions of the CNN and other overseas media stories have been posted on Chinese internet bulletin boards as proof of foreign media bias. CNN said in a statement that: ???Appropriate measures have been taken to secure the safety of our staff.???

[foofy]

Chinese Dismayed by Tales of Tibet Violence
In Personal and Official Accounts,
Majority Han Want Their Side
Of the Story to Be Heard
By GORDON FAIRCLOUGH
March 25, 2008; Page A10

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120638214966859837-ZxbZXP0r40ZsH_raRzdxl47q7SA_20080423.html?mod=tff_main_tff_t op

[foofy]

Unbiased History of Tibet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90hPLnWA4hs

[foofy]

A week in Tibet

Trashing the Beijing Road
Mar 19th 2008 | LHASA
From The Economist print edition

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875823

[SamFisher]

A week in Tibet

Trashing the Beijing Road
Mar 19th 2008 | LHASA
From The Economist print edition

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875823

These articles directly contradict the lies propounded by the Chinese government and many pro-Chinese posters here - that Tibetans are a happy little minority being lovingly tended to by their helpful older brother chinese who have liberated them from feudal slavery. Rather it paints the true picture, which is that of a frustrated, oppressed underclass and of widepsread discontent rather than "jsut as small group of thugs". Thank you for posting.

[foofy]

These articles directly contradict the lies propounded by the Chinese government and many pro-Chinese posters here - that Tibetans are a happy little minority being lovingly tended to by their helpful older brother chinese who have liberated them from feudal slavery. Rather it paints the true picture, which is that of a frustrated, oppressed underclass and of widepsread discontent rather than "jsut as small group of thugs". Thank you for posting.

See my signature..

[SamFisher]

See my signature..
Wow, what a major burn! Burned me like a Han store in the Barkhor! Hay-ooo!!!!!!!

[yuantian]

Wow, what a major burn! Burned me like a Han store in the Barkhor! Hay-ooo!!!!!!!

i think it's pretty clear to everyone but youself, that you are a racist.

[SamFisher]

i think it's pretty clear to everyone but youself, that you are a racist.

Anybody who fails to support the cause of Han Supremacism is obviously a racist.

[MFW]

Anybody who fails to support the cause of Han Supremacism is obviously a racist.

Really Sammy? I have my issues with yuantian. Many of his opinions are too extreme for my taste. But, he also happens to be dead on in this case.

Let me guess, you are not racist towards the Chinese, you are just, shall we say, negatively predisposed towards the Chinese, right? Or should I coin another term?

What's there to complain about, only a handful of ethnic Han shops were burnt?

Goodbye, see you next week.

[yuantian]

Really Sammy? I have my issues with yuantian. Many of his opinions are too extreme for my taste. But, he also happens to be dead on in this case.

Let me guess, you are not racist towards the Chinese, you are just, shall we say, negatively predisposed towards the Chinese, right? Or should I coin another term?

What's there to complain about, only a handful of ethnic Han shops were burnt?

Goodbye, see you next week.

LOL what issues do you have with me? and i thought i am a moderate. if i said anything extreme, it's probably just angry reaction to discrimination posts.

[rocketsjudoka]

You see to be of the opinion that negotiation and dialog solves everything. It doesn't. You negotiate when you actually have the chance to achieve something.


Then what do you fear from negotiations? If you are already ruling them out as not accomplishing anything then you have nothing to lose by negotiating.

The PRC on one hand says that the Dalai Lama is irrelevant yet they go out of their way to demonize him and paint him as being a mastermind behind everything bad that happens in Tibet. That tells me that they actually fear him. If that is the case then why not try to resolve that through negotiations?

The attitude now only guarentees that the situation in Tibet gets more unstable and eventually rather than having someone who is on record as supporting non-violence and keeping Tibet in the PRC the PRC might be faced with several Tibetan leaders who will settle for nothing but outright independence and are willing to use violence to get it.

[OldManBernie]

Then what do you fear from negotiations? If you are already ruling them out as not accomplishing anything then you have nothing to lose by negotiating.

The PRC on one hand says that the Dalai Lama is irrelevant yet they go out of their way to demonize him and paint him as being a mastermind behind everything bad that happens in Tibet. That tells me that they actually fear him. If that is the case then why not try to resolve that through negotiations?

The attitude now only guarentees that the situation in Tibet gets more unstable and eventually rather than having someone who is on record as supporting non-violence and keeping Tibet in the PRC the PRC might be faced with several Tibetan leaders who will settle for nothing but outright independence and are willing to use violence to get it.

I don't doubt PRC fears Dalai Lama considering he has so much influence on the people there. I think the reason why China doesn't want to negotiate with him is because by negotiating with him, it would be legitimizing him as a leader. While he hasn't called for armed violence, the fact that he supports the separatist movement and the fact that the separatist movement looks up to him makes him very dangerous. By negotiating with him, it might open up a whole new can of worms.

[yeo]

Then what do you fear from negotiations? If you are already ruling them out as not accomplishing anything then you have nothing to lose by negotiating.

The PRC on one hand says that the Dalai Lama is irrelevant yet they go out of their way to demonize him and paint him as being a mastermind behind everything bad that happens in Tibet. That tells me that they actually fear him. If that is the case then why not try to resolve that through negotiations?

The attitude now only guarentees that the situation in Tibet gets more unstable and eventually rather than having someone who is on record as supporting non-violence and keeping Tibet in the PRC the PRC might be faced with several Tibetan leaders who will settle for nothing but outright independence and are willing to use violence to get it.

Secret negotiations between the Chinese government and Dalai's people has never stopped, but it has led nowhere, because the two sides' positions are just too far apart. For some of Dalai's positions and why they are unacceptable to the PRC, I think you have already read them in one of my previous posts.

The PRC's current strategies is just waiting for Dalai to die. Just like you say, It will lead to the splintering and radicalization of the Tibetan movement, which we are in fact already seeing. But the PRC is not afraid of a little violence. They already face a radical and violent separatist movement in Xinjiang (East Turkestan), and they are in fact having a great deal of more success dealing with those people than with Tibet. The "East Turkestan Islamic Movement" is now an UN-listed international terrorist organization. That's probably where the Tibetan movement is headed also, or at least its more radical elements like the Tibetan Youth Congress.

[Ottomaton]

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/world/asia/28tibet.html?hp)



Protesting Monks Embarrass China During Press Tour

By DAVID BARBOZA
Published: March 28, 2008

SHANGHAI — Tibetan monks shouting pro-independence slogans caught Chinese officials by surprise Thursday during a highly scripted tour for Western journalists in Lhasa’s central Buddhist temple, disrupting China’s effort to portray the recent Tibetan rioting as the work of violent criminal thugs and separatists.

“Tibet is not free! Tibet is not free!” yelled one young Buddhist monk, who then started crying, according to an Associated Press correspondent in the tour.

Government handlers shouted for the journalists to leave and tried to pull them away during the 15-minute protest by about 30 monks at the Jokhang Monastery in central Lhasa. It was unclear whether the protesting monks were arrested.

The demonstration amounted to another embarrassment for China, which organized the press tour to help sway international opinion, which has focused on China’s heavy crackdown and arrests in the aftermath of the riots and led to talk of a boycott of the Summer Olympic Games in Beijing.

The Chinese wanted the reporters to see damage caused by the rioters and interview Chinese victims of the violence, the worst here in 20 years.

Reporters on the tour said the monks shouted that there was no religious freedom in Tibet and that the Dalai Lama, Tibet’s spiritual leader in exile, had been wrongly accused by China of responsibility for the rioting.

China’s official news agency, Xinhua, mentioned the unscripted protest in a brief dispatch, saying 12 monks “stormed into a briefing by a temple administrator to cause chaos.”

Some American news organizations were invited to send representatives on the press tour. The New York Times was not.

On Wednesday, the reporters on the tour received a detailed schedule for the trip and shown a video about the riots, said the reporter present in the group who did not want to be identified.

Before the protest by the monks, the foreign reporters had already been shown a Tibet medical clinic near to the temple that had apparently been attacked, and shown a clothing store that had been burned, according to the A.P.

The monks involved in the protest first spoke Tibetan and then switched to Mandarin so the reporters could understand them, the A.P. reported. They had rushed over to stop the reporters from being taken into an inner part of the temple, saying they were upset that a government administrator was telling the reporters that Tibet had been part of China for centuries, the A.P. said.

The monks said troops who had been guarding the temple since March 14 were removed the night before the reporters’ visit, the news agency said.

In contrast to the controls on foreign journalists, about 20 journalists from China’s state-controlled media have been allowed into Tibet and other largely Tibetan areas.

The Chinese media have been driving home Beijing’s message: that Tibetan separatists acted as terrorists during the violence, while the government responded with restraint in quelling the riots, and that innocent Chinese were the victims of looting, burning and assault.

China said Wednesday that 660 people implicated in the Tibetan protests and riots had surrendered to the authorities.

The announcement was part of the government’s effort to quell continuing unrest in the area, which includes Tibet and adjoining provinces with large Tibetan populations.

It was unclear from the announcement how many of the 660 had surrendered voluntarily and how many would be formally charged with criminal offenses. Nor was it clear whether all were ethnic Tibetans.

Tibet and neighboring provinces with large Tibetan populations are now under tight military control, with roadblocks and house-to-house searches for suspects. But there have been daily reports of protests and sporadic violence in some regions, people in those areas say.

This week, the Chinese government issued a “most wanted” list with the names of 53 people who it says took part in antigovernment protests, according to the official Xinhua news agency.

The Dalai Lama, who fled Tibet in 1959 and settled in India, has insisted in recent weeks that he had no role in the violent protests and that he does not favor independence for Tibet. He has also said he opposes an Olympics boycott, and he recently offered to resign if Tibetans in western China continued to engage in violence.

Shortly after the March 14 riot, the government began forcing foreign journalists out of Lhasa. Government blockades have also prevented foreign journalists from reaching Tibetan areas in neighboring provinces.

Inside China, the state-owned media are publishing and broadcasting images of Tibetans burning and looting Chinese shops in Tibet and attacking ethnic Han Chinese. The images and reports have helped inflame anger at Tibetans among the Chinese.

[SamFisher]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet but I read this this weekend while traveling and found that it crystallized the situation, doubtless it will be shouted down by those echoing views of the bolded section"


http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/20/asia/letter.php
Letter from China
Beijing's claims of an "unwavering stand" in support of Tibet are groundless
By Howard W. French

Thursday, March 20, 2008
XINING, China: Count the ways that China has sought to bring Tibet to heel since the People's Liberation Army rolled into the country in 1950, brutally ending a phase of nominal independence.

It has tried decapitation. No, heads didn't roll, but one of the heads of Tibetan Buddhism has disappeared. Here, I speak of Gendun Choekyi Nyima, a 6-year-old boy who was apprehended by Beijing after the Dalai Lama named him Panchen Lama, the second holiest figure in Tibetan Buddhism, in 1995. Nyima, ostensibly one of the world's youngest political prisoners, has not been seen or heard from since.

It has tried cartographic dismemberment, gerrymandering western China to place heavily Tibetan areas under non-Tibetan jurisdictions. That is why when protests broke out in Lhasa last week, they were followed quickly by sympathetic demonstrations by Tibetans here in Qinghai Province, and in Sichuan, Gansu and Yunnan.

It has tried ethnic drowning, flooding Tibetans with officially encouraged westward migration of members of China's Han majority, who may already outnumber Tibetans in Lhasa and control both the political administration and every meaningful sector of the economy.

It has attempted suffocation, as well: not literally smothering Tibetans, but rather rewriting the region's history to take out every politically inconvenient or embarrassing fact. Such ambitious management of history is hard and never-ending work, which partially explains why Chinese news accounts of recent events have been so one-sided, and in the end, believable only to people who have been raised within the intellectual garden zealously roped off and tended by the Chinese state.

As I prepared to leave home for work Thursday, I overheard via the Internet an interview with China's ambassador to Canada, Lu Shumin, who likened China's use of heavily armed police and military forces to put down protests in Tibetan areas to the responses of the authorities in the United States and France when there are civil disturbances. "This is normal," he said, striving for a reassuring line. Others have spoken of China's "utmost restraint" and pledges to avoid lethal force.

What, then, was I to make of the pictures that greeted me in the foreign press that showed Tibetans gathered around the corpses of several of their brethren slain near a monastery in Sichuan Province the other day?

Many Tibetans think of Chinese as faithless, but the people who govern China believe firmly in one thing, the irresistible power of the state. Under Mao Zedong, under the guise of Marxism, this ideology was unleashed on man and on nature alike, the first of which Mao repeatedly sought to remake, and the second, to tame.

A war on religion soon followed in the 1960s, with marauding youths and troops smashing temples and burning relics all over China, but nowhere more fiercely than in Tibet, which suffered more than most places during the horrors of the Cultural Revolution.

But while most of China has succumbed to official teaching that religion is superstition, replacing spiritual pursuits with the quest for money and personal advancement, the events of the last week or so suggest strongly that in the Tibetan world, dialectical materialism has met its match in the Tibetan's people's attachment to their own culture, to their identity and to their beliefs.

Tibetan anger, and the willingness to die for a cause, is more than a routine minority grievance, such as one sometimes sees in civil disturbances in the West. It is about survival as a people with cultural and religious integrity in the face of state-sponsored migration and Chinese-style modernization.

Prime Minister Wen Jiabao may have thought he addressed this in saying that China "not only has the ability to maintain stability in Tibet and normal social order, but also will continue to support Tibet's economic and social development, to raise the life standards of all ethnic groups in Tibet, and to protect Tibetan culture, ecology and the environment. This is an unwavering stand."

To Tibetans, it is a stand with no ground to support it. All along China's northern periphery, once strong local cultures are being supplanted or just plain wiped out. Kerry Brown, in his book "Struggling Giant: China in the 21st Century," writes this about Inner Mongolia, which has already been largely homogenized:

"Dressing up in colorful clothes, dancing exaggerated dances, eating mutton and drinking white spirit are all O.K. But musing about just what the historical claims of the current Chinese state on Inner Mongolia are, or writing more trenchant articles in Chinese about the gradual annexation of the region are good ways to be rewarded with unwanted police attention and very probably lengthy prison sentences."

For many people here, hearing a foreigner air such thoughts is ample proof of anti-Chinese-ness. This is a kind of us-versus-them paranoia stoked by the same state that works so hard to manage history, assuring widespread ignorance of many vital facts.

The view here, encouraged from above, is that China is bringing development to Tibet, for which Tibetans should be grateful. There are many problems with this, starting with the fact that few indigenous people want progress "given" to them. For one thing, that's because they don't see themselves as inferior, as such patronage would require. For another, it's because they know of the many strings attached and of the slippery road to losing one's soul.

One would think that Chinese, of all people, would understand this, having been offered the "gift" of modernization by Imperial Japan under its erstwhile Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. One even finds eerie echoes of Japan's Manchukuo with its bogus Emperor Puyi in China's attempts to pick religious leaders on Tibetan's behalf.

It's not for foreigners to say what should happen between Tibet and China, but it's hard to imagine a happy ending for either party until such charades are called off.

[foofy]

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/world/asia/28tibet.html?hp)



Protesting Monks Embarrass China During Press Tour

By DAVID BARBOZA
Published: March 28, 2008


http://news.tvb.com/630pm/lcd56.html?2008/0327/asx/01_56k.asx&2008%u5E743%u670827%u65E5%20%28%u56DB%29

Listen to the sad tone of the shop owner at 3:08, who lost his relative and employees in the riot.

[yeo]

Then what do you fear from negotiations? If you are already ruling them out as not accomplishing anything then you have nothing to lose by negotiating.

The PRC on one hand says that the Dalai Lama is irrelevant yet they go out of their way to demonize him and paint him as being a mastermind behind everything bad that happens in Tibet. That tells me that they actually fear him. If that is the case then why not try to resolve that through negotiations?

The attitude now only guarentees that the situation in Tibet gets more unstable and eventually rather than having someone who is on record as supporting non-violence and keeping Tibet in the PRC the PRC might be faced with several Tibetan leaders who will settle for nothing but outright independence and are willing to use violence to get it.

I don't remember if this has been posted before, but it's interesting to hear from a former insider of the Free Tibet movement. It looks like Dalai is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand he doesn't dare criticising his hard-line followers. I love the analogy "the tail that wags the dog". On the other hand, if he is incapable of reining in his hard-line followers, then he has no basis to negotiate with the Chinese with.

He May Be a God, but He’s No Politician

By PATRICK FRENCH
Published: March 22, 2008
London

NEARLY a decade ago, while staying with a nomad family in the remote grasslands of northeastern Tibet, I asked Namdrub, a man who fought in the anti-Communist resistance in the 1950s, what he thought about the exiled Tibetans who campaigned for his freedom. “It may make them feel good, but for us, it makes life worse,” he replied. “It makes the Chinese create more controls over us. Tibet is too important to the Communists for them even to discuss independence.”

Protests have spread across the Tibetan plateau over the last two weeks, and at least 100 people have died. Anyone who finds it odd that Speaker Nancy Pelosi has rushed to Dharamsala, India, to stand by the Dalai Lama’s side fails to realize that American politics provided an important spark for the demonstrations. Last October, when the Congressional Gold Medal was awarded to the Dalai Lama, monks in Tibet watched over the Internet and celebrated by setting off fireworks and throwing barley flour. They were quickly arrested.

It was for the release of these monks that demonstrators initially turned out this month. Their brave stand quickly metamorphosed into a protest by Lhasa residents who were angry that many economic advantages of the last 10 or 15 years had gone to Han Chinese and Hui Muslims. A young refugee whose family is still in Tibet told me this week of the medal, “People believed that the American government was genuinely considering the Tibet issue as a priority.” In fact, the award was a symbolic gesture, arranged mostly to make American lawmakers feel good.

A similar misunderstanding occurred in 1987 when the Dalai Lama was denounced by the Chinese state media for putting forward a peace proposal on Capitol Hill. To Tibetans brought up in the Communist system — where a politician’s physical proximity to the leadership on the evening news indicates to the public that he is in favor — it appeared that the world’s most powerful government was offering substantive political backing to the Dalai Lama. Protests began in Lhasa, and martial law was declared. The brutal suppression that followed was orchestrated by the party secretary in Tibet, Hu Jintao, who is now the Chinese president. His response to the current unrest is likely to be equally uncompromising.

The Dalai Lama is a great and charismatic spiritual figure, but a poor and poorly advised political strategist. When he escaped into exile in India in 1959, he declared himself an admirer of Mahatma Gandhi’s nonviolent resistance. But Gandhi took huge gambles, starting the Salt March and starving himself nearly to death — a very different approach from the Dalai Lama’s “middle way,” which concentrates on nonviolence rather than resistance. The Dalai Lama has never really tried to use direct action to leverage his authority.

At the end of the 1980s, he joined forces with Hollywood and generated huge popular support for the Tibetan cause in America and Western Europe. This approach made some sense at the time. The Soviet Union was falling apart, and many people thought China might do the same. In practice, however, the campaign outraged the nationalist and xenophobic Chinese leadership.

It has been clear since the mid-1990s that the popular internationalization of the Tibet issue has had no positive effect on the Beijing government. The leadership is not amenable to “moral pressure,” over the Olympics or anything else, particularly by the nations that invaded Iraq.

The Dalai Lama should have closed down the Hollywood strategy a decade ago and focused on back-channel diplomacy with Beijing. He should have publicly renounced the claim to a so-called Greater Tibet, which demands territory that was never under the control of the Lhasa government. Sending his envoys to talk about talks with the Chinese while simultaneously encouraging the global pro-Tibet lobby has achieved nothing.

When Beijing attacks the “Dalai clique,” it is referring to the various groups that make Chinese leaders lose face each time they visit a Western country. The International Campaign for Tibet, based in Washington, is now a more powerful and effective force on global opinion than the Dalai Lama’s outfit in northern India. The European and American pro-Tibet organizations are the tail that wags the dog of the Tibetan government-in-exile.

These groups hate criticism almost as much as the Chinese government does. Some use questionable information. For example, the Free Tibet Campaign in London (of which I am a former director) and other groups have long claimed that 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed by the Chinese since they invaded in 1950. However, after scouring the archives in Dharamsala while researching my book on Tibet, I found that there was no evidence to support that figure. The question that Nancy Pelosi and celebrity advocates like Richard Gere ought to answer is this: Have the actions of the Western pro-Tibet lobby over the last 20 years brought a single benefit to the Tibetans who live inside Tibet, and if not, why continue with a failed strategy?

I first visited Tibet in 1986. The economic plight of ordinary people is slightly better now, but they have as little political freedom as they did two decades ago. Tibet lacks genuine autonomy, and ethnic Tibetans are excluded from positions of real power within the bureaucracy or the army. Tibet was effectively a sovereign nation at the time of the Communist invasion and was in full control of its own affairs. But the battle for Tibetan independence was lost 49 years ago when the Dalai Lama escaped into exile. His goal, and that of those who want to help the Tibetan people, should be to negotiate realistically with the Chinese state. The present protests, supported from overseas, will bring only more suffering. China is not a democracy, and it will not budge.

Patrick French is the author of “Tibet, Tibet: A Personal History of a Lost Land.”

[yeo]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet but I read this this weekend while traveling and found that it crystallized the situation, doubtless it will be shouted down by those echoing views of the bolded section"

Well, this may not be true for the other people, but your own credentials as an anti-Chinese racist and bigot has been pretty well established.

[Ottomaton]

http://news.tvb.com/630pm/lcd56.html?2008/0327/asx/01_56k.asx&2008%u5E743%u670827%u65E5%20%28%u56DB%29

Listen to the sad tone of the shop owner at 3:08, who lost his relative and employees in the riot.


After you listen to the sad tone of the crying monks who have been stomped on by China. I have no problem saying the shop owner has been wronged. I somehow doubt you are willing to reciprocate for the Tibetans.

Reginald Denny was wronged in the LA Riots of '92. That doesn't mean there wasn't some greater overreaching lesson to be learned from the riots. Same thing with the Houston Riot of 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Riot_(1917)). Black soldiers destroyed all sorts of crap belonging to white people, so technically they are the criminals. The white racists had the law on their side. That doesn't mean that when the white cops beat the hell out of black soldiers, that it was right and just.

Tibetans are the n***ers of China. (I use that word only because it describes a relationship between the majority and minority)

[SamFisher]

Well, this may not be true for the other people, but your own credentials as an anti-Chinese racist and bigot has been pretty well established.

Very well, I will start a HUG-A-HAN campaign to alleviate your fears. Come on up and hug me.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Very well, I will start a HUG-A-HAN campaign to alleviate your fears. Come on up and hug me.

That's better than han job week.

[Xenochimera]

NYPD crackdowns Tibetans, even uncle sam bows down to the red dragon LOL :p :p :p :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7NUNwq2MGc&eurl=http://spikedhumor.com/articles/147327/US-Cops-Attack-Tibetan-Protesters.html

[yeo]

NYPD crackdowns Tibetans, even uncle sam bows down to the red dragon LOL :p :p :p :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7NUNwq2MGc&eurl=http://spikedhumor.com/articles/147327/US-Cops-Attack-Tibetan-Protesters.html

Nah, that's just how the NYPD operates. They WILL shoot you if you mess around.

[yeo]

Belgian police sets their dogs on Tibetans. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ8Ix4b8_JM)

[yeo]

Tibetans are the n***ers of China. (I use that word only because it describes a relationship between the majority and minority)


Originally Posted by Rocket River
Why did the cops get off for beating Rodney King?
Because he kept moving and rising like some kind of 'animal'?




Because he was on drugs and deserved it.


Somehow I feel those two quotes just belong together.

[yuantian]

Somehow I feel those two quotes just belong together.

there are some real racists here on the board.

[MR. MEOWGI]

there are some real racists here on the board.

And China is proud of it.

[yuantian]

And China is proud of it.

i don't think any chinese posters here that i know of posted any racist comments or view. you on the other hand, are openly racist.

[MR. MEOWGI]

i don't think any chinese posters here that i know of posted any racist comments or view. you on the other hand, are openly racist.

Nuh-uh.

[yeo]

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12585

Why They Hate China
Well, you have to hate someone…
by Justin Raimondo

China's continuing crackdown on Tibetan pro-independence protesters is a big, big issue here in San Francisco. Why, just the other day, I was coming out my front door, and there was one of my neighbors – a very nice woman in her fifties, albeit an archetypal limousine liberal, typical of the breed. So typical that she might almost be mistaken for a living, breathing, walking, talking cliché. She hates George W. Bush and the neocons because she's against the (Iraq) war, but she's eager to "liberate" Darfur – and, lately, Tibet. That morning, as she earnestly informed me, she was on her way to a meeting of the Board of Supervisors (our town council) to exhort them to vote for a resolution condemning the Chinese government's actions and calling for "freedom" for Tibet. What she doesn't realize, and doesn't want to know, is that she and the neocons – the very ones who brought us the Iraq war – are united on the Tibet issue. I tried, in vain, to point this out to her, but she just shook her head, cut the conversation short, and was on her way…

As it turned out, the supervisors voted for a meaningless, toothless resolution, stripped of provocative rhetoric, much to the dismay of the far-lefties who argued for a stronger statement. The initiative for this effort was made by supervisor Chris Daly, an obnoxious left-liberal with delusions of grandeur, whose pose of self-righteousness is both grating and characteristic of his sort.

Prior to the vote on the Daly resolution, which was vociferously supported by the supposedly pacifistic supporters of the Dalai Lama, the Chinese consulate was… firebombed. This is what the War Party would like to do to China.

Fortunately, there are a number of restraining factors that get in the way: in the meantime, however, our preening politicians demagogue the China issue, and none so brazenly as Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, my congressional representative, who is merely Chris Daly writ large. Traveling all the way to India, at taxpayers' expense, Madam Speaker visited with the Dalai Lama at Dharamsala and announced that if Americans don't speak out against Beijing's repression in Tibet "we have lost all moral authority to speak on behalf of human rights anywhere in the world."

Pelosi is a longtime opponent of Beijing – not just the Chinese government, but China itself. Pelosi and the unions she depends on for political support despise all things Chinese for the simple reason that China, today, is more capitalist than the U.S. – in spite of the Chinese Communist Party's ostensible commitment to Marxist ideology. Thinly veiled racist-chauvinist bilge is routinely directed at the Chinese people by union bosses and right-wing paleo-protectionists, who stupidly claim that the "chinks" (or, as John McCain would put it, the "gooks") are stealing "American jobs" – as if Americans have a hereditary right to the very best salaries on earth, a "right" that doesn't have to be earned by competitive business practices but is conferred on them by virtue of their nationality. Like hell it is.

Lucrative trade and cultural exchanges between China and California, as well as the fact that many Chinese in her congressional district have continuing ties to the mainland, have – so far – failed to deter Pelosi and her fellow Know-Nothings: politics, as they used to say during the Cultural Revolution in China, is in command.

These Sinophobic protests, engineered behind the scenes by leftist union bosses and God knows who else, are focused on the passing of the Olympic torch, which is slowly but surely making its way to Beijing, where the games are scheduled to be held Aug. 8-24. Here in the Bay Area, activists in the "Free Darfur" movement announced they were mounting demonstrations urging China to "extinguish the flames of genocide" in Darfur in San Francisco on April 9, the day the flame passes through the city.


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The hosting of the Olympic Games in Beijing is the focus of much pride in China, seen by the people as well as the ruling caste as symbolic of the nation's arrival in modernity. As such, the worldwide protests and political posturing of preening politicians – from Pelosi to Nicolas Sarkozy – are bitterly resented and have been met with increasingly shrill denunciations by the Chinese state-controlled media – a sentiment that probably understates popular resentment of Western criticism in the Chinese "street."

I know we are supposed to believe that the vast majority of the Chinese people are groaning under the weight of Commie oppression and sympathize (albeit silently) with the downtrodden Tibetans, but that is hardly the case. Indeed, the exact opposite is closer to the truth. Every time the West gets up on its high horse and lectures the Chinese government about its lack of "morality," the tide of anti-Western Chinese nationalism rises higher.

We saw this when the U.S. "accidentally" bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during Clinton's Balkan War of Aggression, and again when that American spy plane went down over Hainan island. In Beijing today, they are worried about the upcoming Olympic celebration, which will provide a platform for a wide variety of groups – including ultra-nationalist Chinese students, whose street antics have augured internal regime change in the past, and could do so again. "They are worried about a larger number of things and they are worried about keeping the lid on," according to Arnold Howitt, a management specialist who oversees crisis-management training programs for Chinese government officials at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. The same Associated Press article cites an unnamed "consultant" to the Games, who avers:

"'Demonstrations of all kinds are a concern, including anti-American demonstrations,' said the consultant, who works for Beijing's Olympic organizers and asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to talk to the media."

Any indications that Beijing is compromising Chinese pride and honor by appeasing the West are likely to be met by demonstrations that are both anti-American and anti-government – initiated, once again, by Chinese students, who have often been the agents of political transformation. Remember the Red Guards? Mao used them to initiate his own "Cultural Revolution," but was forced to rein them in when they started talking about overthrowing the Chinese state.

The memory of that dark and chaotic era haunts China's contemporary rulers, threatening to spoil their dream of a thoroughly modernized industrial powerhouse that is both the forge and the financial capital of the world economy. The Beijing Olympics represent the entry of China onto the world stage as a first-class power, right up there with its former adversaries: the U.S., Europe, and the former Soviet Union. A Chinese nationalist cannot be faulted for seeing the organized campaign to spoil that debut as a deliberate – and unforgivable – insult.

Viewed from this perspective – the perspective, that is, of the average citizen of China – the very idea of Tibetan independence might easily be seen as a rather obvious attempt to humiliate Beijing and remind it of its "proper" (i.e., subordinate) place in the global scheme of things.

After all, what if Chinese government leaders constantly reminded the world that the American Southwest was stolen from Mexico? Imagine the Chinese and Mexican ambassadors to the U.S. demanding independence, for, say, California – or better yet, its return to Mexican sovereignty! Shall the Olympics be forever barred from Puerto Rico, which was forcibly incorporated into the U.S. "commonwealth" in the invasion of 1898?

Of course not. Yet the Americans and their international amen corner are daring to criticize China for preserving its own unity and sovereignty. It's a double standard made all the more insufferable by the self-righteous tone of the anti-China chorus, whose meistersingers are mainly concerned with celebrating their own moral purity.

Yes, Tibet was forcibly incorporated into the Communist empire of the Han, but this was just an episode in the long history of Sino-Tibetan relations – for the greater part of which the Tibetans held the upper hand. The Tibetan empire, at its height, extended from northern India to the Mongolian hinterlands and came at the expense of the conquered Chinese and Uighurs. It fell apart due to a ruinous civil war. A key factor in this complex narrative is that Mongol hegemony over China was greatly aided by the Tibetans, whose conversion of the Mongol nobility to Buddhism legitimized Mongol rule. Today, pro-Beijing historians point to this period as proof that Tibet has "always" been a part of China proper, yet the truth is that both were slaves to the Mongols – the Tibetans as their collaborators, the Chinese as their helots. (Underscoring Mongol contempt for their Chinese subjects was an edict forbidding intermarriage between Mongol and Chinese, although no such barrier to Mongol-Tibetan congress was imposed.) With Buddhism as the state religion, Tibetan priests, including the Dalai Lama, became the avatars of Mongol rule.

In short, the popular narrative of the pacifistic Buddhist Tibetans as the good guys and the Han Chinese as the bad-guy aggressors is the stuff of pure myth, pushed by union propagandists, lefty Hollywood do-gooders, and trendy sandal-wearing Western camp followers of the Dalai Lama, who has become a secularized yet "spiritual" substitute for Mother Theresa.

If the Chinese are wrong to hold on to their province of Tibet, then Lincoln was wrong to insist that the South stay in the Union – and we ought to immediately either grant the American Southwest (and California) independence, or else give it all back to the Mexicans.

The same goes for Taiwan – China's rulers are no more likely to give up their claim to that island than Lincoln was inclined to let the Confederacy hold on in, say, Key West, Fla.

China is an adolescent giant: clumsy, unused to exerting its will beyond its borders, and wracked by self-doubt. Emerging into the company of world powers, it is thin-skinned – like any adolescent – and prone to wild mood gyrations. During the 1960s and '70s, the Chinese were in a distinctly bad mood as they wrestled with the ghosts and demons unleashed by Mao. The triumph of the "modernizers" over the ultra-left Maoists in the 1980s signaled a new mood of optimism and inaugurated an era of unrivaled economic growth. The regime sanctified China's journey down the "capitalist road" by citing the reformer Deng Tsiao-ping's most famous "Communist" slogan: "To get rich is glorious!" Ayn Rand meets Chairman Mao (or, rather, Confucius) – and the result is capitalism-on-steroids.

That's why, in spite of the sclerotic Marxoid ideology that still reins in and retards the natural entrepreneurial spirit of the Chinese people, China is moving forward by leaps and bounds. That's also why comrade Pelosi and her union boss buddies have launched this odious Sinophobic hate campaign – because "their" jobs and sense of entitlement are going up in smoke. For decades, the U.S. government has preached the virtues of free enterprise and urged formerly Communist nations to adopt the free market – and now that the Chinese have taken them up on their offer, Western politicians are attacking them!

The closer China has moved toward our own system – relaxing totalitarian controls over the economy and allowing a far greater degree of ideological diversity than was possible during the Maoist era – the more hostile the U.S. government has become. Nixon went to China at the height of the Cultural Revolution, where he sat next to Madam Mao during a command performance of The Red Detachment of Women. These days, however, as China stakes its claim to a proportionate share of the world market – and Chinese investors fund the U.S. debt – the resentment and growing hostility of the Americans is all too palpable.

Why do politicians of Pelosi's ilk join hands with neoconservatives in a concerted campaign to antagonize China, and even threaten sanctions and possible military action when the occasion gives rise to the opportunity?

To begin with, China's is a success story, and there's nothing that attracts opprobrium like success, unless it's success of the wrong color – in this case, yellow. A crude racist collectivism of a specifically anti-Asian character has long been a tradition of the War Party in this country: see the anti-Japanese Dr. Seuss cartoons from the World War II era for a particularly vivid example. Yes, he was attacking the "Japs," but to Americans, it's all the same Yellow Peril. This kind of sentiment is easily invoked in America, and don't tell me Pelosi and her ideological confreres aren't aware of it – yes, even in "liberal" San Francisco, where anti-Asian sentiment is part of the city's history.

Never mind the first black president, or the first female president – what I'm waiting for is the first chief executive of Asian-American descent. I'm not, however, holding my breath…

Relations with China are cloudy, at best, and those may very well be war clouds gathering on the horizon. The reason is that Sinophobia is a point of unity between the Left and the Right: the union of the Weekly Standard and the AFL-CIO, and perhaps even the majority of my paleoconservative friends, who quail before the rising Chinese giant and see it as a potential threat on account of its sheer scale – a third of the world's population, and a land-mass that rivals our own. Surely such a stirring titan will knock us out of the way as he takes his place at the center of the world stage.

This reflects a fundamental error on the part of many conservatives, as well as liberals of the more statist persuasion. They fail to understand that there are no conflicts of interest among nations as long as their relations are governed by the market, that is by mutually beneficial trade agreements voluntarily entered into. Ludwig von Mises said it far better than I could ever manage, and I'll leave my readers to Mises' ministrations on this abstruse but important subject.

Suffice to say here that our relations with China on the economic front are a benefit to American consumers – that is, to all of us. They enable us to buy inexpensive quality products and keep the cost of living down. Protectionists who argue that "they" are "destroying American jobs" are simply arguing for higher prices – ordinarily not a very popular cause, and especially not these days.

Free trade is the economic precondition for a peaceful world and the logical corollary of a non-interventionist foreign policy. If goods don't cross borders, then armies soon will – a historical truism noted by many before me, and with good reason. Let it be a warning to all those anti-free trade, antiwar types of the Right as well as the Left – you'll soon be jumping on the War Party's bandwagon when it comes China's turn to play the role of global bogeyman. The way things are going, that day may come soon enough.

Finally, a word or two about this nonsensical demand, raised by the "Save Darfur" crowd, that China must somehow "extinguish the flames of genocide" supposedly carried out by the government of Sudan. What does China have to do with Sudan and its government? Well, you see, the Chinese have oil interests in the region, that is, they are engaged in competition with Western oil companies in opening up new fields – and, well, that just isn't permissible.

The Chinese, we are told, have a moral responsibility to either pressure the Sudanese to let up on Darfur, or else abandon their Sudanese assets. As if Sudan were a Chinese colony, and the Sudanese authorities mere sock-puppets of Beijing.

A more arrogant and self-serving argument would be hard to imagine. Presumably Western interests will fill the vacuum left by this spontaneous display of Chinese moral rectitude – and that alone should tell us everything we need to know about what's behind the "Save Darfur" bloviators and their high-horse moralizing.

If our professional do-gooders of the "progressive" persuasion are so concerned about the fate of Darfur, let them campaign for the granting of mass asylum to the survivors of this latest African catastrophe. Give them sanctuary and green cards, but keep U.S. troops out of Africa, specifically out of Darfur – and get off Beijing's back.

Like Russia, China is awakening from the long Leninist nightmare, albeit less traumatically, and with greater prospects for full recovery. However, it wouldn't take much to push it back into a revival of neo-Maoism – or worse – and a new dark age triggered by an external threat. A resurgence of Chinese ultra-nationalism in response to Western pressure – and the specter of U.S.-sponsored separatism – does not augur well for the cause of world peace. As is so often the case, we are creating the very enemies we fear, empowering and arming them ideologically. We are, in this sense, our own worst enemies.
~ Justin Raimondo

[yeo]

http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_keith_mo_080324_a_buddhist_struggles.htm

A Buddhist struggles to keep grounded about Tibet and China

by Keith Mothersson Page 1 of 1 page(s)

http://www.opednews.com




Every day I get two or three e-mails urging me to do something about the current unrest and repression in Tibet. Perhaps signing some of these petitions is helpful, but perhaps not. Feeling powerless is not a nice feeling for any of us, but sometimes the truth is that there is almost nothing we can do to influence events the other side of the world. Least of all if we are seen to be intervening in a hypocritical way, as part of a Western propaganda offensive. No matter our 'opposition' to the misdeeds of our own governemnts, 'Why don't we take the beam out of 'our' own eye first?', many in Tehran or Moscow or Beijing might be tempted to ask us - for our 'opposition' stance - however important to the construction of our own right-on identities, seems to them barely observable.

The following thoughts are shared at a time when Western Buddhists and other would-be consistent supporters of peace and human rights find ourselves joined by many mainstream Western media in 'championing the cause of the Tibetal people': Hmmm.

These same Western media which haven't reported the 'avoidable death of 1.3 billion people since 1950 on Spaceship Earth with the First World in control of the flight deck' to quote the veteran biologist and public health statistician Dr Gideon Polya of
http://globalbodycount.blogspot.com/ ? Hmmm.

These same Western media who also downplay the scale of the West-attributable excess avoidable mortality figure in the the Middle East/West Asia wars since 1990, which Dr Polya puts around around 8 million: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/17139/42 . Hmmm.

These same Western media which have averted their eyes and ours from the ongoing Holocaust of 5-10 million dead in the new scramble for Africa taking place in the Congo: see Keith Harmon Snow's The War that did not make the headlines: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7957 ). Hmmm.

I should add that I write as a Buddhist who believes that we should try to put truth/reality before all comforting myths. Let all ideological camps and political 'sides' wash our own dirty linen, and not necessarily only in private either! For a good example of such public truth-telling, see Zen at War by fellow Zen Buddhist, Brian Victoria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War .

Let us start with the following report from a China Daily reporter which shows - surprise, surprise! - that Western media have been manipulating the news about Lhasa demonstrations. http://english.cri.cn/2946/2008/03/22/65@336718.htm

Whatever the truth about the scale and the brutal and/or relatively measured response by the Chinese, it is far from clear that the original protests which broke out recently in Lahsa were peaceful, or remained so for long.

Even those who are usually suspicious when the neocons start to champion the human rights of people living in or near Yugoslavia/Serbia, Iraq, Iran, Russia or China, seem all too ready to ignore the Dalai Lama's long term strategic alliance with - or use by - the CIA and the West.

This strategic alliance was most embarrassingly displayed when the Dalai Lama consented to receive the Congressional Medal of Honour from that same US Congress that has loyally voted credits for the illegal wars and occupations in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcXmB0U_DCQ&feature=related

At a time when the 'freedom-loving' West keep amping up the propaganda against Iran, Russia and Beijing, and the US surrounds all these countries with missiles and battleships, it seems to me most unlikely that US-led 'external pressure' on Beijng will lead China's rulers to look on Tibetan autonomy with favour.

Such pressures wll be particularly conuter-produective if the Dalai Lama is either happy to be praised as a 'man of peace' by 'President' (non-elect) Bush or so compromised that he can't avoid being required to do so as an integral part of the West's surging propaganda offensive. Instead Political Sociology 101 tells me that China will redouble its authoritarian vigilance, and refuse to believe that the Dalai Lama is sincere in his protestations of only wanting self-rule within China. What some hail as a great day for Buddhism, I feared was a tremendously unskilful move which will just make life harder for all the people of Tibet.

For supporters of popular freedom and social progress in Tibet to avoid being swept away in a media-concocted hysteria against China and all things Chinese in the coming months leading up to the Olympics, it will be helpful to read an article such as Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth, by Dr Michael Parenti.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7355

'For the rich lamas and secular lords, the Communist intervention was an unmitigated calamity. Most of them fled abroad, as did the Dalai Lama himself, who was assisted in his flight by the CIA. Some discovered to their horror that they would have to work for a living. Many, however, escaped that fate. Throughout the 1960s, the Tibetan exile community was secretly pocketing $1.7 million a year from the CIA, according to documents released by the State Department in 1998. Once this fact was publicized, the Dalai Lama's organization itself issued a statement admitting that it had received millions of dollars from the CIA during the 1960s to send armed squads of exiles into Tibet to undermine the Maoist revolution. The Dalai Lama's annual payment from the CIA was $186,000. Indian intelligence also financed both him and other Tibetan exiles. He has refused to say whether he or his brothers worked for the CIA. The agency has also declined to comment.

'In 1995, the News & Observer of Raleigh, North Carolina, carried a frontpage color photograph of the Dalai Lama being embraced by the reactionary Republican senator Jesse Helms, under the headline "Buddhist Captivates Hero of Religious Right." ....
'Into the twenty-first century, via the National Endowment for Democracy and other conduits that are more respectable sounding than the CIA, the U.S. Congress continued to allocate an annual $2 million to Tibetans in India, with additional millions for "democracy activities" within the Tibetan exile community. In addition to these funds, the Dalai Lama received money from financier George Soros. (Heather Cottin, "George Soros, Imperial Wizard," CovertAction Quarterly no. 74 (Fall 2002).'

In November 2005 at Stanford University Nobel Peace Laureate, the Dalai Lama declined to condemn all use of force e.g. to defend and protect people. (Fair enough, for few of us are absolute pacifists. The devil lies in the detail of which applications of force people then identify as just or skilful, i.e. more life-protective than life-negating.) However as Michael Paenti continues:

' What of the four years of carnage and mass destruction in Iraq, a war condemned by most of the world -- even by a conservative pope -- as a blatant violation of international law and a crime against humanity? The Dalai Lama was undecided: "The Iraq war -- it's too early to say, right or wrong." (San Francisco Chronicle, 5 November 2005)

'Earlier the Dalai Lama had voiced support for the U.S. military intervention against Yugoslavia and, later on, the U.S. military intervention into Afghanistan. (Times of India 13 October 2000; Samantha Conti's report, Reuter, 17 June 1994; Amitabh Pal, "The Dalai Lama Interview," Progressive, January 2006.) '

Parenti concludes:

' To welcome the end of the old feudal theocracy in Tibet is not to applaud everything about Chinese rule in that country. This point is seldom understood by today's Shangri-La believers in the West. The converse is also true: To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime. ...."

"Tibetan feudalism was cloaked in Buddhism, but the two are not to be equated. In reality, old Tibet was not a Paradise Lost. It was a retrograde repressive theocracy of extreme privilege and poverty, a long way from Shangri-La.'

Yet the Dalai Lama has often portrayed an idealised image of Tibet and exaggerated the degree of popular opposition which the Chinese-imposed and Chinese-backed reforms engendered in Tibet in the fifties - and which actually left both the common people and the monasteries free to practice their religion to a much greater extent than subseqently obtained - i.e. in the context of the Tibetan struggle being taken up the the USA, with two brothers of the Dalai Lama actively involved with armed CIA-trained Tibetan liberation forces.


Parenti does mention the Dalai Lama's repeated praise of non-violence, and support for e.g. somewhat greater equality for Buddhist nuns compared with the monks. However, it is possible that he takes more care than is warranted not to risk offending Tibetan and other Buddhists by asking, as we now need to, whether there are deep-structural correspondences between Vajrayana Buddhism at the level of religion and a patriarchal-feudal social order which was admired by Hitler's SS and in some circumstances mutates into aggressive militarism, viz the religious zeal of Mongolian Genghis Khan or the Fifth Dalai Lama whose calls for a holy war of extermination mirror what we can read in Jewish/Christian holy books - or what some exponents of Imperial Zen advocated and practiced in Korea, Manchuria and China in WW2.

No such inhibitions detain two German scholars of Tibetan Buddhism, pro-feminists Victor and Victoria Trimondi (surely pseudonymns?) in their well-informed and comprehensive E-book, The Shadow of the Dalai Lama:
http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-2-09.htm

The Trimondis show with abundant examples that Tantric and 'Shambala warrior' mythology are full of bloodthirsty imagery, weapons, slaying, torture, etc. Reflecting real historical battles both defensive and agressive against Islam, strands in such mythologies also look forward to an ultimate showdown with Islam/unbelievers. Here is an excerpt from one disturbing chapter (Chapter 2-9: The War Gods behind the Mask of Peace
http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Contents.htm ) :

Political calculation and the Buddhist message of peace 'It is not the task of our analysis to make a personal choice between “armed rebellion” and the “ahimsa principle” or to answer the question whether violent action in Tibet is morally justified and makes sense in terms of national politics. We also do not want -as the Chinese attempt to do — to expose the Kundun as no more than a fanatical warmonger in sheep’s clothing. Perhaps, by and large he is personally a peace-loving person, but without doubt he represents a culture which has from its very origins been warlike and which does not even think of admitting to its violent past, let alone reappraising it."
"Instead, Dharamsala and the current Dalai Lama make a constant propaganda project of presenting Tibetan Buddhism and the history of Tibet to the world public as a storehouse of eternal teachings about nonviolence and peace. There is thus a refusal to accept that the Kundun first acquired his pacifist ideas (e.g., under the influence of Mahatma Gandhi) after his flight; instead it is implied that they are drawn from the inexhaustible inheritance of a many hundred year old tradition and history. Even the aggressive “Great Fifth” and the “Great Thirteenth” with his strong interest in military matters now appear as the precursors of the current “Buddhism of peace”.

'On the basis of this distortion, the current Dalai Lama is able to fully identify with his fifth incarnation without having to mention his warlike and Machiavellian power politics and murderous magic: “By holding the position of the Fifth Dalai Lama I am supposed to follow what he did, this is the reason I have to interfere”, the Kundun explained in 1997 (HPI 006). Thus there is much which speaks for the pacifism of the Dalai Lama being nothing more than a calculated political move and never having been the expression of a principle.


'Jamyang Norbu, co-director of the Tibetan cultural institute, thus accuses his “revered leader” (the Kundun) and his exile Tibetan politicians of fostering the formation of the western myth of the good and peaceful Tibet of old. At no stage in history have the Tibetans been particularly pacifist — the terrible fighting out of the conflicts between individual monasteries proves this, as well as the bloody resistance to the occupation in the fifties. “The government in exile”, says Norbu, “capitalizes upon the western clichés, hampers a demythologization, a critical examination of its own history” (Spiegel, 16/1998).'There is also absolutely no intention of doing this. For the Dalai Lama the fundamental orientation to be adopted is dependent upon what is favorable in the prevailing power-political situation. Thus a immediate volte-face to a fighting lineage is thoroughly laid out in his system. Neither religious, nor ideological, and definitely not historical incarnational obstacles stand in the way of a possible decision to go to war. In contrast, the Tibetan war gods have been waiting for centuries to strike out and re-conquer their former extended empire. Every higher tantra includes a call to battle against the “enemies of the faith”. In any event, the Kalachakra ritual and the ideology at work behind it are to be understood as a declaration of war on the non-Buddhist world. Important members of the Tibetan clergy have already reserved their places in the great doomsday army of Shambhala. „Many of them already know the names and ranks they will have.” (Bernbaum, 1980, p. 29, 30).
'When the political circumstances are ripe the “simple monk” from Dharamsala will have to set aside his personal pacifist tendencies and, as the embodied Kalachakra deity, will hardly shrink from summoning Begtse the god of slaughter or from himself appearing in the guise of a heruka. “The wrathful goddesses and the enraged gods are there,” we learn from his own mouth (before he was awarded the Nobel peace prize), “in order to demonstrate that one can grasp the use of violence as a method; it is an effective instrument, but it can never ever be a purpose” (Levenson, 1992, p. 284). There is no noteworthy political leader in the violent history of humankind who would have thought otherwise. Even for dictators like Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin violence was never an end in itself, but rather an “effective instrument” for the attainment of “honorable” goals.'

Finally, as an engaged Buddhist I believe that we should not draw too big thick black lines between 'spirituality' and 'politics', since to do so would compound and mirror the conventional but illusory separation between 'the divine' and 'reality', and 'society' and 'self'. Among engaged Buddhist teachers I have learned the most from David Loy, Ken Jones and Thich Nhat Hanh. It would be nice to walk into bookstores and find their work represented alongside that of other fine teachers, but lo!, for some reason it is the Dalai Lama whose books have been so very heavily promoted in the West, even to the extent of describing him as some kind of all-Buddhist equivalent of the Pope for Roman Catholics.

For the health of Buddhism's continuing development in the West, do Western Buddhists now need to ask ourselves to what extent our understanding of spirituality has been subtly shaped by shadowy forces and corporate marketeers who for different reasons have considered it expedient to promote such a 'de-politicised' - or Western imperialist and privatistic - understanding of our dharma?

May all beings know peace, may all beings be happy.

[SamFisher]

and we ought to immediately either grant the American Southwest (and California) independence, or else give it all back to the Mexicans.

- once again we are subject to thetired analogy of china defenders using 19th century manifest destiny practices in order to justify 21st century conduct.

This is a regular feature of Pro-CCP argument.

[therack06]

and we ought to immediately either grant the American Southwest (and California) independence, or else give it all back to the Mexicans.

- once again we are subject to thetired analogy of china defenders using 19th century manifest destiny practices in order to justify 21st century conduct.

This is a regular feature of Pro-CCP argument.

You only call it tired because you have no defense for it and thus we can use it again and again. The USA would not be the most powerful country in the world without its actions under "Manifest Destiny." Now it uses its soapbox that it would not have without Manifest Destiny to lecture other countries about human rights? Nobody would care about what the US thinks about human rights if the US weren't the most powerful country in the world.

This is even ignoring the fact that we are in fact paying to keep Tibet's economy running, not the other way around.

[clutch11]

After you listen to the sad tone of the crying monks who have been stomped on by China. I have no problem saying the shop owner has been wronged. I somehow doubt you are willing to reciprocate for the Tibetans.




The "crying monks" show convinced me that Dalai Lama was masterminding the protests. :D

[michecon]

blahhhhh, human rights.........
Soudi Arabia whose human rights concept is based on sharia religious laws and not all that stellar is one of U.S.'s closest ally. Saddam's iraq was aided by the U.S. when it served U.S. interest.

Need it more to be said?

[Ottomaton]

The "crying monks" show convinced me that Dalai Lama was masterminding the protests. :D

Seriously, I appreciate you are joking and being light-hearted which is welcome and good, but do you really believe the government claim all has been masterminded by the Dali Lama from India using his 'secret Dali clique'? Honestly?

[namo]

Seriously, I appreciate you are joking and being light-hearted which is welcome and good, but do you really believe the government claim all has been masterminded by the Dali Lama from India using his 'secret Dali clique'? Honestly?

Seriously, we all know that the past terrorist attacks in the US have been masterminded by a person from a central Asian cave, and now you have a hard time relating his holiness with the peaceful protests?

[clutch11]

Seriously, I appreciate you are joking and being light-hearted which is welcome and good, but do you really believe the government claim all has been masterminded by the Dali Lama from India using his 'secret Dali clique'? Honestly?

Sure, the government will not tell u everything. I always call for more media freedom in China. China can't compete with West Countries if there is only one major television network that provides people nationwide news.

And my answer to your question is：YES, I believe the riot is masterminded by Dalai and his clan.

[yuantian]

Seriously, I appreciate you are joking and being light-hearted which is welcome and good, but do you really believe the government claim all has been masterminded by the Dali Lama from India using his 'secret Dali clique'? Honestly?

i don't think that he mastermind the whole thing. i think the government repeatedly said that it's the clique. i mean, that's not a false statement. essentially, everyone in exile is part of the clique. it's probably people associated with him that planned everything. he probably knows something is going on and didn't stop it. or maybe he didn't know it would turn into a racial violence. but it happened.

[SamFisher]

You only call it tired because you have no defense for it and thus we can use it again and again.

You use it again and again and it simply makes you look idiotic. The U.S. had slaves in 19th century too- does that mean China gets to have slaves today? That's only tip of idiotic lessons that we can take from te "It's CHINA's TURN to colonize, dominate, and overwhelm and dominate indigenous people" line of reasoning.

China is stuck in a time warp. The US pretty much got out of the colonization business after the Spanish American war - over 100 years ago. That is why places like the Phillippines, Cuba, etc are now self-governing nations. Hell, by that time even the American Indians had a form of self-rule that Tibetans will never get from their helpful elder brother Han overlords. I guess it has something to do with givng up territory as a loss of face. What a bunch of paranoiacs.

I can see why Chinese posters always like to lecture me about how their country is unready for democracy and how they are grateful to be dominated by an authoritarian regime - Chinese don't seem mature enough to govern themselves, as reflected by the incredibly unsophisticated thinking on display by the Clutchfans PLA/mob.

THat's why I repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread - why don't hte CHinese just kill or deport all Tibetans now and be done with it? The goal is to make Tibet into Xizang - so just do it already. Tibetans and their culture and traditions are going to be overwhelmed and destroyed by Chinese and made into museum pieces eventually - that's simply what happens when millions of chinese move into your neighborhood and take over. It's happened many times before. It's nothing new.

If you want manifest destiny, than stop being a bunch of whiny bitches fighting wars on message boards land get serious about it. Join the REAL PLA and GO WEST, YOUNG MAN.

[lalala902102001]

So when will the U.S. take a stronger stand against China on Tibet? Time is running out...


you know, before we have to come back and kiss their asses and make up before the Olympics so that we can get the commie money to save this trainwreck that's known as the U.S. economy.

[SamFisher]

So when will the U.S. take a stronger stand against China on Tibet? Time is running out...


you know, before we have to come back and kiss their asses and make up before the Olympics so that we can get the commie money to save this trainwreck that's known as the U.S. economy.

yes - I am real scared of China destroying its own economy in order to spite the US by torpedoing its primary market.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL SKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDDDD!!!!!

[SamFisher]

This inspirational footage of Tibetans, on horseback, no less, re-taking one of their cities from the Chinese is worth watching again. I shudder to think what may have happened to these poor people.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2uc7z-ITEJ4&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2uc7z-ITEJ4&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Apologies to those of you reading this post from China- the government has likely blocked access to this youtube video.

[namo]

i'm sure their horses have been beaten to death
www.anti-cnn.com

[SamFisher]

^ truly weak.

I apologize for the lesson in spatial dynamics, but the fact that a 200x200 pixel photo was cropped to show only one protester instead of two protesters is due to the fact that web pages (much like newspapers) do not have unlimited space. It's simple physics.

That you equate this with the institutionalized censorship of the chinese state is pretty pathetic. (are you reading this, CCP 网特? If so, go f-k yourselves!!! :D Your great firewall will never contain me, got to put in a visa application soon.....) Though I must say, I guess I don't blame our chinese friends for making this mistake - they have no experience with a free press and have so much exposure to censorship that pretty much everything must look like a deliberate slight or censorship to them.

I wonder where they even got all this information considering that one can't view CNN in China.

[longhornchampno]

If you want manifest destiny, than stop being a bunch of whiny bitches fighting wars on message boards land get serious about it.

Everyone who joins an internet debate is a whiny bitch. You are one too.

[longhornchampno]

^ truly weak.
Though I must say, I guess I don't blame our chinese friends for making this mistake - they have no experience with a free press and have so much exposure to censorship that pretty much everything must look like a deliberate slight or censorship to them.

What else are you good at other than trying to paint the people who don't agree with you in a bad image in order to win a cyber space debate? Man up and attack their opinions just for once instead of using this lame tactic. The ones who argue with you in this thread obviously have no problem to have access to any news media in the world.

[rfila]

From what I read on Chinese BBS and forums, there is a strong sentiment of ethnic hatred among ethnic Hans toward ethnic Tibetians. There is also strong hatred toward the West as many people see the West as the backers of Dalai Lama and the Tibetian independent movement. The feeling is that the West is trying to sabotage China in the Olympic year by playing up the Tibetian crackdown and the West's ultimate goal is to curb China's development and prevent it from becoming a great nation. This feeling is especially strong among young Chinese, evident by the posts on many universitys' BBS's.

I was in university in China when the Tibetian protests of 1987 happend and when the Beijing student demonstration/protests happened in 1989. There was a very different feeling back then. Most ordinary Chinese people, especially the young people, did not agree with the goverment's actions back then. I remember talking to many young people who supported the Tibetians' causes. That feeling seems to have vanished today and replaced by a strong and even dangerous nationalist zeal.

I think at some point the West needs to re-examine its China policy. What has happend in the last 20 years that have dramatically shifted the public opinions among the Chinese toward the West?
Very true. Chinese were very frendly to American. Even ten years ago, vast majority of Chinese liked US. The swing started in 1998, when an US missile bombed Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, causing two Chinese dead. Clinton did fair job with apology and compensation in the crisis. The real turning point was when Bush took the white house with all his harsh word toward Chinese the first two years in office. Two incidents just made it worse: first the US spy plane crashed with PLA jet fighter. The PLA pilot died and US crew safely landed in China and was treated politely by the PLA, yet Bush talked very bullish. Second was that Bush said "take whatever necessary to defend Taiwan". Maybe he just wanted to show this nation how tough he is as a leader, he did not realize(he probably didn't care either) how much it hurts to the Chinese. Also Bush has shown much better gusture since Iraq war, the damage was done.

[SamFisher]

Everyone who joins an internet debate is a whiny bitch. You are one too.

Chinese are so cute and ornery when they get into online mobs.

[wnes]

and we ought to immediately either grant the American Southwest (and California) independence, or else give it all back to the Mexicans.

Regime change is a lot easier if it starts at home.

Put your words into action, Samantha, to prove you are not just a hypocritical little whiny bitch on an internet BBS.

[SamFisher]

Regime change is a lot easier if it starts at home.

Put your words into action, Samantha, to prove you are not just a hypocritical little whiny bitch on an internet BBS.

I was quoting the moron making the argument above me, genius.

Just like some bright-eyed young chinese will no doubt stumble upon this thread and no doubt, type up his trump card "if china has free tibet US must give back alaska!!!!11!!" - then sit back and admire his work as a good little citizen. I'm eagerly awaiting...

Way to keep up with the thread wnes - next time read before posting - TIA, TOEFL

[MFW]

You use it again and again and it simply makes you look idiotic. The U.S. had slaves in 19th century too- does that mean China gets to have slaves today? That's only tip of idiotic lessons that we can take from te "It's CHINA's TURN to colonize, dominate, and overwhelm and dominate indigenous people" line of reasoning.

China is stuck in a time warp. The US pretty much got out of the colonization business after the Spanish American war - over 100 years ago. That is why places like the Phillippines, Cuba, etc are now self-governing nations. Hell, by that time even the American Indians had a form of self-rule that Tibetans will never get from their helpful elder brother Han overlords. I guess it has something to do with givng up territory as a loss of face. What a bunch of paranoiacs.


That's funny Sammy. That's really really funny. US style colonization has ended over 100 years ago? What about Puerto Rico, Guam, Hawaii, etc? It also seem that the US has figured out a more effective way of colonization. Go in, wipe out the existing regime, set up a puppet, see Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

They wanted oil, they were not beneath lying about it, drum up the public, then going in and beating the crap out of whoever is in the way. Sounds rather like what happened to those Native Americans? I think so.

And those existing areas, what exactly are you doing about the situation? Apparently saying sorry is your idea of accountability. How about this, the Chinese get the free pass (and when I mean free, I mean no blame should EVER be leveled) to wipe out the Tibetans, then they'll say they're sorry. Not good enough? They'll say they're really really sorry. Hell, I'm sure they'd do the same for Taiwan, which is even more strongly Chinese land.

By the way, for morons like Deckard, I'm being sarcastic.


I can see why Chinese posters always like to lecture me about how their country is unready for democracy and how they are grateful to be dominated by an authoritarian regime - Chinese don't seem mature enough to govern themselves, as reflected by the incredibly unsophisticated thinking on display by the Clutchfans PLA/mob.


I doubt any Chinese would think they are unfit to govern themselves. In fact, they are governing themselves right now. They said they are not ready for democracy and rightfully so, or it would be the Soviet Union all over again. And China doesn't have a lot of oil for Hu to "re-nationalize." But then again, that's exactly what you want isn't it?


THat's why I repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread - why don't hte CHinese just kill or deport all Tibetans now and be done with it? The goal is to make Tibet into Xizang - so just do it already. Tibetans and their culture and traditions are going to be overwhelmed and destroyed by Chinese and made into museum pieces eventually - that's simply what happens when millions of chinese move into your neighborhood and take over. It's happened many times before. It's nothing new.


Funny Sammy, I'm still waiting for your response on how 5% ethnic Hans is going to wipe out 90%+ Tibetans. Like I said, when you move a wildly overestimated 100,000 people in 50 years, you aren't doing a very good job.

Is a fact only worthy of "debate" when it is in your favour?


If you want manifest destiny, than stop being a bunch of whiny bitches fighting wars on message boards land get serious about it. Join the REAL PLA and GO WEST, YOUNG MAN.

Chinese ultra-nationalist: "do I get a get out of jail free card like American soldiers at The Hague?"

[MFW]

Then what do you fear from negotiations? If you are already ruling them out as not accomplishing anything then you have nothing to lose by negotiating.


So you are saying that they should negotiate just for the hell of it, even though you know the other party won't act in good faith?

The PRC on one hand says that the Dalai Lama is irrelevant yet they go out of their way to demonize him and paint him as being a mastermind behind everything bad that happens in Tibet. That tells me that they actually fear him. If that is the case then why not try to resolve that through negotiations?


The CCP doesn't fear Dalai, they "fear" foreign opinion and the more than just a bit strong common interest between Dalai and shall we say, certain governments in the west. They "fear" the opinion of the ignorant average American who doesn't know what's going on and still decided to have a say.


The attitude now only guarentees that the situation in Tibet gets more unstable and eventually rather than having someone who is on record as supporting non-violence and keeping Tibet in the PRC the PRC might be faced with several Tibetan leaders who will settle for nothing but outright independence and are willing to use violence to get it.


You know, ironically the CCP has gotten as far, if not further, with Dalai by not talking to him vis-a-vis talking to him. For one thing, it makes him realize that he doesn't have much bargaining power in the deal. It sends a very clear message. Had that not been the case, he'd still be talking about Greater Tibet and de jure independence

[SamFisher]

What about Puerto Rico, Guam, Hawaii, etc?

The US has given Puerto Rico no fewer than four referendums to separate from the US or become a state since 1952, since PR is kind of a net drain on US government resources, the prevaling hope is probably that they leave rather than stay. Unfortunatley they keep voting to stay as a territory because that way they get to be part of the US but then get a special tax status.

Guam - luckily for us, the Spanish pretty much wiped out the indigenous culture there. But anyway, as far as I can tell, the Guam nationalist movement advocates statehood and closer ties with the US rather than de-linking. Perhaps they will get it. I don't really care what hapens to guam one way or the other. If the US were to give up Guam, just like it gave up Phillipines, Cuba, etc - no big deal to me.

Hawaii - this happened before the spanish american war in 1893- and you're right, it was the last gasp of US colonialism. Of course - why this incident of 19th century imperialistic colonialism is used by China-boyz-2-men to justify China's current conduct is very obvious. Of course, modern-day Polynesians arent' murdered and repressed like Tibetans so we're really talking pineapples and breadfruit here.

Anyway - since we are talking about giving up colonial/territorial possesions, which the US has done on numerous occasions (last time being the Panama Canal Zone) - please Identify one time, just one time that the PRC has ever willingly ceded any territorial claim EVER, in its ENTIRE HISTORY.

I don't know of any - perhaps you do.

TOEFLIA, TIA.

[SamFisher]

Funny Sammy, I'm still waiting for your response on how 5% ethnic Hans is going to wipe out 90%+ Tibetans. Like I said, when you move a wildly overestimated 100,000 people in 50 years, you aren't doing a very good job.



Do you actually believe that there are only 100,000 ethnic hans in Tibet - if so you need to tap into those superior math skills that Chinese are so famous for, becuase you're missing a few digits on that number.

[wnes]

I was quoting the moron making the argument above me, genius.

Just like some bright-eyed young chinese will no doubt stumble upon this thread and no doubt, type up his trump card "if china has free tibet US must give back alaska!!!!11!!" - then sit back and admire his work as a good little citizen. I'm eagerly awaiting...

Way to keep up with the thread wnes - next time read before posting - TIA, TOEFL

Eh no, you didn't quote anybody in your post (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=3576472&postcount=474).

Counselor, if you really have trouble comprehending what "quote" stands for, you should subject yourself to TOE*N*L, where *N* = native

But I digress. Whether you are backpedaling right now, you did express the same view in the past, didn't you?

My point stands. Put your words into action, and remember regime change starts at home.

[thegary]

sam has yellow fever?

[SamFisher]

Eh no, you didn't quote anybody in your post (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=3576472&postcount=474).

Counselor, if you really have trouble comprehending what "quote" stands for, you should subject yourself to TOE*N*L, where *N* = native

But I digress. Whether you are backpedaling right now, you did express the same view in the past, didn't you?

My point stands. Put your words into action, and remember regime change starts at home.

I was referring to the 3,000 word essay quoted at lenght in post number #472 one post up.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=3576444&postcount=472


But fine OK I don't care. Let's give all the US back to Mexico but I'm preconditioning it to Beijing going back to the Mongols - PROVIDED that China invokes its right to use slavery

DEAL OR NO DEAL DEAL OR NO DEAL DEAL OR NO DEAL