[Official}Astros or former Astros named in Mitchell report

[Castor27]

Astros or former Astros named (hopefully this is a short list):

Roger Clemens

[ThePrivate]

Roger Clemens Named in Mitchell report


Just reported on ESPN! :D

[Chuck 4]

Somehow, not really that surprising...

[Murph23]

Bonds is a no brainer, but Roger just broke my heart. :confused:

[Castor27]

I edited the thread title and the first post, so we didn't have 50 thread of Player X named in Mitchell report. If there are Astros named we can discuss them in this thread.

[BetterThanI]

Just reported on ESPN! :D
This doesn't make me smile. I would have liked it if the Astros were completely untouched by this whole mess. Now, we're faced with (grudgingly) admitting that any games we won while Roger was pitching might have been the result of cheating. That's not a :D . That's a :( .

[msn]

Selig's comments on his role in the Mitchell report, as quoted at epsn (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3152573):"I haven't seen the report yet, but I'm proud I did it," Selig said, according to the Chicago Tribune. "People can say Bud was just trying to cover his butt or take care of his legacy or whatever. I say [expletive] it. This needed to be done, and now we've done it. I'm just happy it will be out there and we can move on. I'm proud of it."

[conquistador#11]

even if he fooled my 12th grade ap art class into working on his backyard's waterfall, Roger is a good guy. Steroids will not make me think any less of him. I'm over him leaving us :)

[Murph23]

Who else do you guys think will be on the report? Didn't Grimsley say that both Roger and Andy were on roids?

[The Real Shady]

Good. Hopefully this means he will retire.

[Nashvegas]

It will be interesting to see how he is portrayed in the media now if he is indeed on the list like ESPN is reporting.

McGwire got bashed, Barry's been bashed, I wonder if Roger is going to get the same treatment.

[msn]

It will be interesting to see how he is portrayed in the media now if he is indeed on the list like ESPN is reporting.

McGwire got bashed, Barry's been bashed, I wonder if Roger is going to get the same treatment.
Since he already gets bashed, I'd expect nothing less.

[Murph23]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153129


Source says information on Clemens will be in Mitchell's report


ESPN.com news services

Updated: December 13, 2007, 10:26 AM ET


Clemens May Be Named in Mitchell ReportA former New York Yankee strength trainer says information he supplied to the George Mitchell investigation regarding supplying Roger Clemens with steroids is included in the Mitchell report scheduled to be released later today, a source close to the trainer told ESPN The Magazine's Shaun Assael.




Brian McNamee, who worked for the Yankees and as a personal trainer for Clemens and Yankee teammates Andy Pettitte, also told investigators that on at least one occasion, Clemens was in possession of steroids from another supplier, the source said.




The source said McNamee told investigators he supplied Clemens with steroids while Clemens was witih the Yankees, and prior to Clemens joining the team.

Also, The Bergen (N.J.) Record, citing a baseball industry official, says "several" prominent Yankees will be named in the Mitchell report. The paper said the source spoke to a third party who had seen the final report.

"It's going to be a rough day in the Bronx," the paper quoted the source as saying.

Baseball commissioner Bud Selig told the Chicago Tribune that he hadn't seen the report, but he was proud it is coming out.

"People can say Bud was just trying to cover his butt or take care of his legacy or whatever," Selig said, according to the Tribune. "I say [bleep] it. This needed to be done, and now we've done it. I'm just happy it will be out there and we can move on. I'm proud of it."

Scott Boras, who represents a number of high-profile players including Yankee third baseman Alex Rodriguez, told the Los Angeles Times he hadn't read the report. He did, however, say he's skeptical because "the concerns of due process and the standards that apply to it are relatively unknown. Certainly, any results that occur from the report have to be looked at in the light that this is not a collectively bargained effort."

"I'm going to assume that a lot of the basis for this is hearsay information," Boras said, according to the Times. "It's not based on any kind of clinical testing, so it is widely a product of hearsay testimony. Without clinical testing or hard evidence, any report like this has to be reviewed with great scrutiny."

[crose]

Hopefully, the lack of steroids in our clubhouse is what Roger meant when he commented that our team was'nt "committed to winning".

[rrj_gamz]

This doesn't surprise me but it does hurt...Of course we're over Roger, but he did wear an Astros uni and that's what sux...

If we're speaking of near term athletes, then we can't worry about the past? We know Cammy did, but what about Bagwell? Any others you suspect? Maybe Redding? j/k...We all suspect Miggy, but we'll see...

I think its good to have the report, but now what? More stringent rules? As long as guys aren't doing it now, then maybe we can keep some integrity...

[DoitDickau]

If clemens than Pettitte must be on there too? no?

[SWTsig]

tejada
pettitte

[SamCassell]

Not sure why people would be happy to hear this about Clemens. He's a guy who helped this club win a postseason series for the first time ever, and then helped take this club to the World Series for the first time ever. The two greatest postseasons in Astros history, by far, happened with him playing an integral role. He went to Spring High School. He went to San Jac. He went to UT. He's a Houstonian. Not only that, but he's got a personal services contract that means that he's going to continue to be a part of the Astros organization for a long time.

I for one appreciated the grit and fire that the man played with. Nobody worked harder, nobody took his job more seriously. He's a throwback pitcher who pitched inside and took the ball in the 15th inning against the Atlanta Braves and picked up the win in one of the most memorable Astro games of all time. Why would you want all that tainted with steroids?

[leroy420]

Really isn't that surprising. I just spoke with a close friend of mine who is a huge Clemens fan. Even he isn't surprised.

I'm just hoping and praying that I don't see one Jeff Bagwell in this report.

[leroy420]

Hopefully, the lack of steroids in our clubhouse is what Roger meant when he commented that our team was'nt "committed to winning".

LOL :D

[Murph23]

This doesn't surprise me but it does hurt...Of course we're over Roger, but he did wear an Astros uni and that's what sux...

If we're speaking of near term athletes, then we can't worry about the past? We know Cammy did, but what about Bagwell? Any others you suspect? Maybe Redding? j/k...We all suspect Miggy, but we'll see...

I think its good to have the report, but now what? More stringent rules? As long as guys aren't doing it now, then maybe we can keep some integrity...

Uh, they just switched to HGH because there is no test to detect it. That's why Bonds still has power to his swing. :rolleyes:

[MadMax]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5374398.html

"I think there's really going to be more hype than impact," Astros catcher Brad Ausmus said. "I really want to see baseball put it behind it and stop trying to demonize its past and try to correct the future and make sure it won't happen again."


When asked whether players are worried about the release of the report, Astros first baseman Lance Berkman said Wednesday, "If there's players that have something to be worried about, then yeah. I've never done anything and/or been associated with people that have.

[Murph23]

Not sure why people would be happy to hear this about Clemens. He's a guy who helped this club win a postseason series for the first time ever, and then helped take this club to the World Series for the first time ever. The two greatest postseasons in Astros history, by far, happened with him playing an integral role. He went to Spring High School. He went to San Jac. He went to UT. He's a Houstonian. Not only that, but he's got a personal services contract that means that he's going to continue to be a part of the Astros organization for a long time.

I for one appreciated the grit and fire that the man played with. Nobody worked harder, nobody took his job more seriously. He's a throwback pitcher who pitched inside and took the ball in the 15th inning against the Atlanta Braves and picked up the win in one of the most memorable Astro games of all time. Why would you want all that tainted with steroids?

What? That dude played more golf than work hard during the season. Being on roids or HGH and pitching in the inferior National League is why he pitched well. He knew that staying in the A.L. he would just get knocked around, pretty much like what happened to him last year. :rolleyes:

[grummett]

Bagwell and Biggio are the only two players I care about being on the report. Clemens was an an Astro in uniform only.

[justtxyank]

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Bar ry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton B radley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozz ie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenn y Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Fr anklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Jua n Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, jackkindregan (9:54:45 AM) : Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gon zalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Ma rk McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott S c hoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Te j ada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood

Just got that. It is rumored to be the list.

[msn]

Just got that. It is rumored to be the list.
Link?

[MadMax]

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Bar ry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton B radley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozz ie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenn y Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Fr anklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Jua n Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, jackkindregan (9:54:45 AM) : Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gon zalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Ma rk McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott S c hoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Te j ada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood

Just got that. It is rumored to be the list.

where'd you get it?

[msn]

Link?
Never mind, I see you got it from a chat of some sort.

[Oski2005]

IF that's the list, why are they naming dead players? Let Cammi and DK RIP.

[ThePrivate]

From ESPN.com report that ThePrivate posted, there will be quite a few Yankee players named in the report. Clemens, Giambi, and Pettitte?

[Miguel]

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafael Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

Rumored list. BAGGY NOOOOOOOOOO :(

[Oski2005]

From ESPN.com report that ThePrivate posted, there will be quite a few Yankee players named in the report. Clemens, Giambi, and Pettitte?

Why are you talking about yourself in the 3rd person?

[msn]

Let me save all the Bagwell haters' breath:

SEE!!! I TOLD YOU SO!!!11 His face is all pock-marked, and look how SKINNY he was as rookie again at ST in 2006!!!!11 All you homers had to know this was coming, didn't you?

......

Well, Bagwell haters, we still don't have proof, but it's hard not to believe at this point. Bummer.

[msn]

Why are you talking about yourself in the 3rd person?
At least he didn't use the royal "we".

[wrath_of_khan]

Tejada?

That would be infuriating on so many levels.

Shocked that Gonzo's not on the list ...

[juicystream]

Clemens does not suprise me. I've said before that I thought he was on steroids. He was so dominant at an old age and the was known to have a short fuse. I'm just hoping I don't see players like Bagwell who are icons in the city of Houston on the list. I would expect that Richard Hidalgo was a user, regardless of whether or not he appears on the list.

[The Real Shady]

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafael Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.:(

Ozzie Canseco! :eek: Things have taken a turn for the worse.

[SamCassell]

Why is Troy Glaus on the list twice? Did he use twice as much roids as everyone else?

I guess I'm a little surprised about Dykstra, who I thought had retired before the steroid era. And the Pujols allegation is huge, that guy has been the best player in the NL for years.

[msn]

Clemens does not suprise me. I've said before that I thought he was on steroids. He was so dominant at an old age and the was known to have a short fuse. I'm just hoping I don't see players like Bagwell who are icons in the city of Houston on the list. I would expect that Richard Hidalgo was a user, regardless of whether or not he appears on the list.
Bagwell is on the rumored list that has been posted above twice. :(

[rhino17]

I am glad to see Clemens on the list, that asshole deserves it

[juicystream]

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafael Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

Rumored list. BAGGY NOOOOOOOOOO :(

How many roids do you have to take to be on there twice?

[juicystream]

Why is Troy Glaus on the list twice? Did he use twice as much roids as everyone else?

I guess I'm a little surprised about Dykstra, who I thought had retired before the steroid era. And the Pujols allegation is huge, that guy has been the best player in the NL for years.

So is Juan Gone

[SupermanSK]

What no Biggio? Darn it. I was hoping he'd be on there too.

[ThePrivate]

Clemens does not suprise me. I've said before that I thought he was on steroids. He was so dominant at an old age and the was known to have a short fuse. I'm just hoping I don't see players like Bagwell who are icons in the city of Houston on the list. I would expect that Richard Hidalgo was a user, regardless of whether or not he appears on the list.

I don't know if Bagwell will be on the list, but I am suspicious of him. I went to Cabo for vacation in August and saw him there on the beach with his wife and kids and I was surprised at how small he looked. He had no upper body muscle mass whatsoever, makes you think maybe he was on steroids or HGH.

[msn]

I don't know if Bagwell will be on the list
Did you guys not see the list that was posted twice above and quoted a third time, or do you not trust it as it's only the "rumored" list?

[ThePrivate]

ESPN is now reporting Andy Pettitte will be on the list.

[Raven Lunatic]

God...if Baggy really is on the actual list, I'm going to be crushed. Totally ****ing crushed. :(

[ThePrivate]

Did you guys not see the list that was posted twice above and quoted a third time, or do you not trust it as it's only the "rumored" list?

Did you not post that it came from a chat room? If it is not from a reputable source, then I am not giving it any credence.

[Major]

So much for Tejada not being on the list.

[Major]

Did you not post that it came from a chat room? If it is not from a reputable source, then I am not giving it any credence.

CNBC is basically reporting these same names. It comes from WNBC-TV.

[gunn]

God...if Baggy really is on the actual list, I'm going to be crushed. Totally ****ing crushed. :(

Are you serious?

[Hammer755]

CNBC is basically reporting these same names. It comes from WNBC-TV.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/22243678

[Spacemoth]

I'm surprised that the entire 2001 Diamondbacks team is not here. Matt Williams yes, but what about Jay Bell, Steve Finley, and Luis Gonzalez?

And anyone notice how Varitek is the only active Red Sock named? No Ortiz, Manny, JD Drew, Beckett, Schilling, Timlin, Papelbon... All of these players remain questionable in my mind. There's definitely a pro-Red Sox bias here I'm afraid.

[russian88]

Bagwell was like 220 with NO fat....at 5'10 yeah all natural lol....

[Raven Lunatic]

Are you serious?

Yes. I've given Jeff the benefit of the doubt throughout because his name was only ever linked to anything through speculation. His change in size from huge to small coincided with his shoulder injuries, which wouldn't allow him to work out, so I felt that could explain things. Was it naive? Sure, maybe a little. I just grew up with Bagwell and Biggio and one of my favorite things about those guys was they always seemed to "play the game right" without getting into any of the traditional horse**** that weighed other teams down and would embarass a city. I didn't want that image of him to be tarnished. But if his name is on the list...can't deny it anymore. The guy was a cheater.

****.

[robbie380]

God...if Baggy really is on the actual list, I'm going to be crushed. Totally ****ing crushed. :(


like it wasn't that obvious?

[tested911]

God...if Baggy really is on the actual list, I'm going to be crushed. Totally ****ing crushed. :(

Wow if you didn't think there was a slightest chance Bags was on roids you have some heart my friend.

[leroy420]

Ozzie Canseco! :eek: Things have taken a turn for the worse.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f194/UndeadFaith/OH_NOES.jpg

[OldManBernie]

Yes. I've given Jeff the benefit of the doubt throughout because his name was only ever linked to anything through speculation. His change in size from huge to small coincided with his shoulder injuries, which wouldn't allow him to work out, so I felt that could explain things. Was it naive? Sure, maybe a little. I just grew up with Bagwell and Biggio and one of my favorite things about those guys was they always seemed to "play the game right" without getting into any of the traditional horse**** that weighed other teams down and would embarass a city. I didn't want that image of him to be tarnished. But if his name is on the list...can't deny it anymore. The guy was a cheater.

****.

Cheaters or not, Bagwell and Caminiti will always be two of my all-time favorites.

[msn]

Did you not post that it came from a chat room? If it is not from a reputable source, then I am not giving it any credence.
That's fair. I was just asking.

[Nice Rollin]

clemens is an ass. so is his son.

[countingcrow]

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_RG_00_bg.jpg

Rich Garces on steroids?

[msn]

Wow if you didn't think there was a slightest chance Bags was on roids you have some heart my friend.
Well, speaking for myself, sure I thought there was a chance. A significant chance. But I hoped it wasn't the case. And I argued vociferously against people who stated dogmatically that it was "fact" based upon their observations from a freaking TV screen and I don't regret it.

[russian88]

Steroided burritos ;)

[Angkor Wat]

I wonder what would be the bigger list, Baseball players who took steriods or NBA players who smoke weed?

Baseball players on roids FTW!!!!

[msn]

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/BDD_RG_00_bg.jpg

Rich Garces on steroids?
"Once".

[leroy420]

I wonder what would be the bigger list, Baseball players who took steriods or NBA players who smoke weed?

Baseball players on roids FTW!!!!

Knowing an NBA player personally, I'm going with NBA players...at least percentage wise.

[MadMax]

The guy was a cheater.

****.

I think you're giving this report a lot more credit than it deserves. We'll see who it names and, more importantly, how it substantiates those names, soon enough.

[Spacemoth]

And not to point the finger at the Diamondbacks alone, but we could probably go down the list of WS winners the past decade and show how their cornerstones were completely 'roided-up. The 2002 matchup alone, Bonds (and probably Kent and Aurilia too) vs Glaus and that nasty Angels bullpen (which included Donnelly and Schoeneweis, what a surprise), was a battle of who could down the most steroids and growth hormones. 2003 was A-Rod, Sheffield, Giambi, Aaron Boone, Clemens, and Pettitte against Beckett, Penny, Pavano, Lee, and Lowell (AJ Burnett was out that year, I wonder why). 2004 was Pujols Rolen Edmonds Carpenter Isringhausen against Manny Ortiz Varitek Damon and co (I didn't name Pedro because he is one of three guys I am adamant about who are innocent, the other two being Biggio and Oswalt. Just look at their body types if you want justification). 2005 as we all remember was Clemens and Pettitte and Ensberg--maybe Fat Elvis gets a bye too for being farmer strong--against Konerko, Dye, AJ Pieroidsrageski, Buerhle, and Freddy Garcia.

EVERYONE I named has either already been accused of steroid use, will be accused within the next couple hours, or deserves accusation because of their body types + unnatural career arcs.

[gunn]

Yes. I've given Jeff the benefit of the doubt throughout because his name was only ever linked to anything through speculation. His change in size from huge to small coincided with his shoulder injuries, which wouldn't allow him to work out, so I felt that could explain things. Was it naive? Sure, maybe a little. I just grew up with Bagwell and Biggio and one of my favorite things about those guys was they always seemed to "play the game right" without getting into any of the traditional horse**** that weighed other teams down and would embarass a city. I didn't want that image of him to be tarnished. But if his name is on the list...can't deny it anymore. The guy was a cheater.

****.

Hey, baseball turned the other cheek. No big deal. This list probably isn't even the tip of the iceberg, though.

[msn]

maybe Fat Elvis gets a bye too for being farmer strong
That is freaking awesome.

As to the rest of your take, I have to disagree with implicating guys just because of what their bodies look like.

[Angkor Wat]

Knowing an NBA player personally, I'm going with NBA players...at least percentage wise.

Would the number of NBA players who toke up, be higher than we expect? :D

[Raven Lunatic]

I think you're giving this report a lot more credit than it deserves. We'll see who it names and, more importantly, how it substantiates those names, soon enough.

Well, there is that. I heard on the radio that some of the names on the list are actually just guesses by team officials without any actual witnessed abuse to go on. If that were true, then I would be pissed at Mitchel for putting those names on the list unless he openly states there is no real evidence or witnesses.

And I'm with msn. It's not that I didn't allow that there was a chance Bagwell roided...it's just that I wanted to believe the best in him for the reasons I detailed in my last post. I felt that, more than anyone else that could be suspected, he had valid excuses for what seemed like evidence to his use. Are they going to post the full text report on the web for everyone to read?

[OrangeRowdy95]

An inside source told me years ago, I mean years ago, that Craig Biggio, Ken Caminiti, Roger Clemens, Jeff Bagwell, and Luis Gonzales did the 'roids.

Clemens' son Koby also was supposedly on steroids in high school at Memorial.

Looking at those names, I'd throw in Andy Pettitte and Steve Finley to the list, but my source did not give me those 2 names, so they could be clean.

[gunn]

(I didn't name Pedro because he is one of three guys I am adamant about who are innocent, the other two being Biggio and Oswalt.

Don't be so quick to judge. Everyones agenda may be different. Especially in the case of HGH versus "steroids" and what each individual may be looking to accomplish by using.

[gunn]

Well, there is that. I heard on the radio that some of the names on the list are actually just guesses by team officials without any actual witnessed abuse to go on. If that were true, then I would be pissed at Mitchel for putting those names on the list unless he openly states there is no real evidence or witnesses.

That's something you should likely know already. Mitchell had no ability to use testing or subpena power, so, the names on the list have basically come from people ratting out other people.

[SWTsig]

God...if Baggy really is on the actual list, I'm going to be crushed. Totally ****ing crushed. :(

boo-freaking-hoo.... if bagwell's name being brought up in steroid allegations upsets you, you need to take a step back and throw away those astros-colored glasses that are apparently attached to your face. this comes as no surprise as all the evidence was RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE'S FACE FOR YEARS.

i'm just amazed by how naive and, dare i say, ignorant so many people have been regarding this issue. honestly, i would've been more shocked had bagwells name NOT appeared on the list.

this list is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the amount of players who are/were cheating over the past 15-20 years.

[VesceySux]

If true, there goes Bagwell's HOF chances... :(

[JoeBarelyCares]

If true, there goes Bagwell's HOF chances... :(

I bet none of the players on the list end up first ballot HOFers, now. Clemens will still make it to Cooperstown, but maybe enough voters will leave him off the first year to send a message.

[NJRocket]

supposedly bags, cammy, kile, rocket and andy are all on it

[Raven Lunatic]

boo-freaking-hoo.... if bagwell's name being brought up in steroid allegations upsets you, you need to take a step back and throw away those astros-colored glasses that are apparently attached to your face. this comes as no surprise as all the evidence was RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE'S FACE FOR YEARS.

i'm just amazed by how naive and, dare i say, ignorant so many people have been regarding this issue. honestly, i would've been more shocked had bagwells name NOT appeared on the list.

this list is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the amount of players who are/were cheating over the past 15-20 years.

Yeah, I'll throw away those glasses. The Astros-colored ones. You know...that color that resides on the light spectrum between "Diamondbacks" and "Postage Stamps."

I already admitted that it was likely a bit naive to believe Bagwell never used. I DON'T think that it makes me ignorant, naive, or any of the other insulting term to HOPE that Bagwell wasn't because he was my Houston sports hero growing up. But I'm sure you'll find some other clever way to deride those sentiments as well.

[wrath_of_khan]

Interesting -- SI's Jon Heyman reports that Chuck Knoblauch is on the list. Maybe that list that's been floating around isn't the real one.

Heyman, also confirms Tejada, btw.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/13/mitchell.news/index.html?eref=T1

[Icehouse]

So does that mean some of you Bond haters will raise up off his peter now? He is basically being convicted in the public based on hearsay, similar to what this report is….

Let’s not be hypocritical now people!!!!!!!!!

[DoitDickau]

Interesting -- SI's Jon Heyman reports that Chuck Knoblauch is on the list. Maybe that list that's been floating around isn't the real one.

Heyman, also confirms Tejada, btw.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/13/mitchell.news/index.html?eref=T1


That list is completely made up. It contradicts a number of other leaked reports as to who would be on the list. come on' Rich Garces? lol Just wait an hour and you'll get the real list

[wrath_of_khan]

Just wait an hour and you'll get the real list

You mean actually be productive at work for an hour? :D

[Cannonball]

And anyone notice how Varitek is the only active Red Sock named? No Ortiz, Manny, JD Drew, Beckett, Schilling, Timlin, Papelbon... All of these players remain questionable in my mind. There's definitely a pro-Red Sox bias here I'm afraid.

Well, he is in the Red Sox front office. Conflict of intrest?

[Raven Lunatic]

So does that mean some of you Bond haters will raise up off his peter now? He is basically being convicted in the public based on hearsay, similar to what this report is….

Let’s not be hypocritical now people!!!!!!!!!

We don't know what this report is yet...

[jopatmc]

Wally Joyner?!?!?

Neifi Perez??!?!?!?

that's two punch-n-judies right there.

[Cannonball]

Wally Joyner?!?!?

Neifi Perez??!?!?!?

that's two punch-n-judies right there.

Could have been for faster injury recovery. Didn't Perez throw his back out sneezing? Or was that Mark Lansing?

[rocketsjudoka]

2005 as we all remember was Clemens and Pettitte and Ensberg--maybe Fat Elvis gets a bye too for being farmer strong--against Konerko, Dye, AJ Pieroidsrageski, Buerhle, and Freddy Garcia.

Yeah I bet Adam Everett and Scott Posednik were all roided up with the power numbers they had.. And the league should've allowed Lidge to take steroids given how much of a basket case he was. ;) ;)

[bobrek]

So does that mean some of you Bond haters will raise up off his peter now? He is basically being convicted in the public based on hearsay, similar to what this report is….

Let’s not be hypocritical now people!!!!!!!!!

You mean the hearsay that came from Bonds own lips when he admitted using the "cream" and the "clear"?

[justtxyank]

FWIW that list was posted from rotoworld I think.

[david12sfa]

I just want to see how many of these guys (if any) sue the creators of this report.

[trickywhiteguy]

Miguel Tejada was just named in the report by the espn reporter

[RedRaiderRocket]

Proud Supporter of the Houston Astroids! :cool:

[wrath_of_khan]

Posted this in another thread:

I scanned the PDF of the report, and searches for "Biggio", "Luis Gonzales," "Kile," and "Finley" come up negative.

Tejada's section is pretty juicy, tho. :(

(no pun intended)

[updawg]

Miguel Tejada was just named in the report by the espn reporter
he was only shooting up B12 ;)

[Furious Jam]

Toward the end of the road trip which included the Marlins series, or shortly after the Blue Jays returned home to Toronto, Clemens approached McNamee and, for the first time, brought up the subject of using steroids. Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee’s help. Later that summer, Clemens asked McNamee to inject him with Winstrol, which Clemens supplied. McNamee knew the substance was Winstrol because the vials Clemens gave him were so labeled. McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in Clemens’s apartment at the SkyDome.

That's what I call a love connection. :D

[Furious Jam]

he was only shooting up B12 ;)

Apparently, no one has first hand knowledge that Tejada actually used steriods. Likely means no suspension. But the cloud is there.

[No Worries]

from The Michell Report (http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf) :


Miguel Tejada is a shortstop who has played for two teams in Major League Baseball since 1997, the Oakland Athletics (7 seasons) and Baltimore Orioles (4 seasons). He was the American League Most Valuable Player in 2002. He played in every game from June 2, 2000 until June 21, 2007, the fifth longest streak of consecutive games played in Major League Baseball history. Tejada has played in four All-Star games and was the Most Valuable Player of the 2005 All-Star game.

In 2003, Adam Piatt’s locker was located next to Tejada’s in the Oakland Athletics clubhouse. According to Piatt, Tejada asked specifically if he had any steroids. Piatt believed that Tejada asked him because Piatt was in good shape and generally friendly with him

Piatt had several conversations with Tejada before a transaction occurred. Piatt admitted he had access to steroids and human growth hormone and agreed to obtain them for Tejada. Piatt recalled that he provided Tejada with testosterone or Deca-Durabolin, as well as human growth hormone. Piatt emphasized that he did not know whether Tejada actually used the substances.

Piatt’s bank provided two checks deposited into Piatt’s account that had been written to him from Miguel Tejada. The checks are dated March 21, 2003 and are in the amounts of $3,100 and $3,200 respectively.

Separately, before our interviews of him, Piatt also spoke with federal agents by telephone. Piatt had his personal lawyer present for this call, as he did in his meetings with me and my investigative staff. The federal agents later advised my staff that Piatt also informed them of Piatt’s sales to Tejada during their telephone interview.

Radomski recalled receiving a call from Piatt during which he said he needed extra testosterone because “one of the guys wanted some.” In a later conversation, Piatt told Radomski that the testosterone was for his teammate, Miguel Tejada. Radomski never spoke, or sold performance enhancing substances, directly to Tejada. Radomski provided this information to me without knowledge that I had spoken to Piatt or that I was otherwise aware of Piatt’s alleged sales to Tejada. Similarly, Piatt was unaware of any statements by Radomski on this subject when he was interviewed by my investigative staff.

As discussed earlier in this report, Tejada was interviewed as part of a congressional investigation into whether Rafael Palmeiro had lied under oath about his use of performance enhancing substances during a March 17, 2005 congressional committee hearing.408 In that investigation, Palmeiro said he had received injectable, and legal, vitamin B12 from Tejada; Palmeiro said it was possible the vitamin B12 had been tainted and had been the reason
for his positive test for steroids. Tejada admitted to investigators that he provided injectable vitamin B12 to Palmeiro and two other unidentified Orioles players during the 2005 season. The congressional report said that the Players Association had tested another vial of vitamin B12 provided by Tejada and it showed no signs of steroids.409

Tejada is also mentioned in two books on the subject. In Juicing the Game, the author Howard Bryant wrote that during the 2002 season, an airport security screener found a syringe in Tejada’s briefcase. Tejada reportedly explained that he received a supply of vitamin B12 from the Dominican Republic that he administered to himself.410 Mickey Morabito, the director of team travel for the Oakland Athletics, confirmed the incident in an interview with my
investigative staff. He acknowledged that he did not report the incident to anyone with the club or the Commissioner’s Office.

In his book Juiced, Jose Canseco wrote that, in 1997, when he and Tejada were teammates on the Athletics, they discussed the use of performance enhancing substances:

I started giving him [Tejada] advice about steroids, and he seemed interested in what I was saying. Tejada and I had a secret weapon: We could speak in Spanish, which made it easier to talk about whatever he wanted, even if there were reporters around.411

Tejada denied that he had ever had any discussions with Canseco about steroids. He was further reported to say: “I work very hard to keep in shape and any suggestion that I use steroids, or any banned substance is insulting and not worth discussing further.”412

In December 2005, Texas Rangers owner Thomas O. Hicks and general manager Jon Daniels engaged in an email exchange about possible trade discussions. In one email, Daniels stated that he had “some steroids concerns with Tejada,” and cited Tejada’s decreased productivity over the second half of the 2005 season.413

In order to provide Tejada with information about these allegations and to give him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined.

[Dennis2112]

This is just a dog and pony show that will start a flurry of lawsuits due to the lack of pure evidence. This report is hearsay and gossip.

Now I am not saying that none of these players listed did or did not use steroids but lets move on and just punish those that fail tests from now on.

[Major]

This report is hearsay and gossip.


Except it's not. From most reports, there's much more documentation in there than people expected. Money trails, paper trails, etc.

[ThePrivate]

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf

Page 124 of the Mitchell report:

Similarly, in an article that appeared in early August, days before stories first appeared about Mark McGwire’s use of androstenedione, then-Milwaukee Brewers manager Phil Garner told a reporter of his first-hand knowledge of a player’s steroid use:

There was one kid, 27, who was cycling steroids, and I asked him, ‘Do
you realize you could need an artificial heart when you’re 40 years
old?’. . . He said, ‘I don’t care what happens at 40. All I want to do is be
the biggest, baddest, guy I can be right now.’229

In his interview with our investigation, Garner acknowledged that he had known one major league player who used steroids while playing for him, but Garner refused to identify the player because it was more than five years prior to the interview and Garner did not believe it was necessary for this investigation to look that far back in time.

[wrath_of_khan]

Stephen Randolph??!!? :eek:
Ron Villone??

(p. 206)

[juicystream]

Looks like Stephen Randolph and Tejada are the only current Astros mentioned. I saw Greg Zaun and another former small time player mentioned.

[weslinder]

A section that should make Astros fans angry is the one about Kevin Brown. He used HGH in 2001. There's no evidence that he was juicing when he beat the Astros in the 1998 playoffs, but it still hurts to know that the Astros best season was ended by a cheater.

[MadMax]

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf

Page 124 of the Mitchell report:

Similarly, in an article that appeared in early August, days before stories first appeared about Mark McGwire’s use of androstenedione, then-Milwaukee Brewers manager Phil Garner told a reporter of his first-hand knowledge of a player’s steroid use:

There was one kid, 27, who was cycling steroids, and I asked him, ‘Do
you realize you could need an artificial heart when you’re 40 years
old?’. . . He said, ‘I don’t care what happens at 40. All I want to do is be
the biggest, baddest, guy I can be right now.’229

In his interview with our investigation, Garner acknowledged that he had known one major league player who used steroids while playing for him, but Garner refused to identify the player because it was more than five years prior to the interview and Garner did not believe it was necessary for this investigation to look that far back in time.


if it was more than 5 years back, then it would have been with the brewers...not with the astros.

[juicystream]

Except it's not. From most reports, there's much more documentation in there than people expected. Money trails, paper trails, etc.

They have copies of checks and notes written in there. A lot of players though only appeared because their names came up in investigations. There is also a great deal of detail in the report.

[Raven Lunatic]

I just did a search of the entire report (pdf format) and I get no Bagwell hits. Unless it is some weird format, his name isn't on the list. I don't have time now to read the whole thing....but if it isn't on there, THAT'S AWESOME.

[clutch citizen]

We can't rewrite the champions of the past. If you DQ'd every performance enhancing drug user from the record books...that book would be wiped out.

Let's just acknowledge that steroids have stained the MLB legacy. There's no way to punish each player in the report equally. Some players are still playing, some are retired, some have passed. It won't be fair to suspend current players. What is the equivalent to those who are no longer active in the league? Come up with a better test and procedure today and move on.

With that being said, I can't believe what DUMB decision it was by Ed Wade to trade for Tejada BEFORE this report. He has the potential to be suspended.

[NIKEstrad]

I went through and searched for "Astros" in the report. Here's the list I came up with:

Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Ken Caminiti (RIP) -- there's a lot on him with the Astros, including a shipment at a hotel that an equipment manager opened
Stephen Randolph
Gregg Zaun
Chris Donnels
Ron Villone

And I suppose throw in Miguel Tejada

[JPM0016]

With that being said, I can't believe what DUMB decision it was by Ed Wade to trade for Tejada BEFORE this report. He has the potential to be suspended.

No positive test, no suspension.

[MadMax]

With that being said, I can't believe what DUMB decision it was by Ed Wade to trade for Tejada BEFORE this report. He has the potential to be suspended.

I can't imagine them being suspended because they were named in this report. The collective bargaining agreement allows for suspension based on failing drug tests.

[juicystream]

Looks like Stephen Randolph and Tejada are the only current Astros mentioned. I saw Greg Zaun and another former small time player mentioned.

Ron Villone and Chris Donnels were other former Astros that were mentioned.

[sammy]

God...if Baggy really is on the actual list, I'm going to be crushed. Totally ****ing crushed. :(

its because you were to big of a homer to see the truth. i was bashed big time when i posted that i thought he used roids a while back.

how hard was it to figure out? he was Caminiti's good friend. We all know he atleast used andro. All you have to do was look at the numbers he put up in his MVP year to know that something shady went down.

Luis Gonzales used roids too and Im sure Steve Finley was in on it too.

[juicystream]

I can't imagine them being suspended because they were named in this report. The collective bargaining agreement allows for suspension based on failing drug tests.

Explain that to the players recently suspended because of sufficient evidence.

[ThePrivate]

if it was more than 5 years back, then it would have been with the brewers...not with the astros.

Hey man, this is like a 450 page report, I am looking for anybody who has been with the Stros and is indirectly or directly involved. Take it for what's its worth.

[justtxyank]

No positive test, no suspension.

That's not true. Selig already stated that discipline will be meted out based on the evidence.

[JPM0016]

its because you were to big of a homer to see the truth. i was bashed big time when i posted that i thought he used roids a while back.

how hard was it to figure out? he was Caminiti's good friend. We all know he atleast used andro. All you have to do was look at the numbers he put up in his MVP year to know that something shady went down.

Luis Gonzales used roids too and Im sure Steve Finley was in on it too.

nope, bagwell, luis and finley DID NOT make the list

[JPM0016]

That's not true. Selig already stated that discipline will be meted out based on the evidence.

and without a positve test he'll ultimately lose

[juicystream]

The list identified eight players (with the Marlins, Astros, and Expos) for whom Perez personally
had acquired anabolic steroids, in addition to identifying twelve players for whom Perez had
obtained other drugs.

Page 148.

Don't know who all that included...

[htownbball]

a lot of no name guys, a few big ones

todd hundley
kevin brown
chuck knoblauch
kevin young
paul lo duca
denny neagle
fernando vina
david justice
mo vaughn
roger clemens
andy pettitte
glenallen hill (explains all the rage, seriously this guy was crazy)
rondell white

the most notable guys imo

[justtxyank]

This list is not a comprehensive list of those using steroids. It only accuses or provides information on those from a select number of sources. So anyone who is using steroids purchased through the Dominican pharmacies was not at risk of being exposed in this report.

[ThePrivate]

Of significance to our investigation, however, was the information learned during the course of the congressional investigation concerning the widespread and apparently open and obvious self-administration, using hypodermic needles, of an unregulated substance imported from the Dominican Republic labeled as vitamin B12. Congressional investigators looked into the issue because Palmeiro told them that he had used injectable vitamin B12 provided to him by


273 H. Comm. on Gov’t Reform, Report on Investigation Into Rafael Palmeiro’s
March 17, 2005 Testimony Before the Comm. on Gov’t Reform, at 5 (109th Cong. 2005)
(“Palmeiro Report”).
274 Jose Canseco, Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant ‘Roids, Smash Hits and How Baseball
Got Big 135 (Regan Books 2005).
275 Palmeiro Report at 42.
105

his Orioles teammate Miguel Tejada and that this might have been the reason for his positive
steroid test.276 According to the House Committee’s report, Tejada told investigators that he generally brought injectable vitamin B12 with him to the United States when he returned each season from the Dominican Republic.277 Tejada said that he gave vitamin B12 to three teammates during the 2005 season, Palmeiro and Players A and B. In his own interview with the congressional investigation, Player A said that he injected Tejada with vitamin B12 approximately 40-45 times during the 2004 season and approximately 30-35 times during the 2005 season until July, when he decided to stop doing so.278 Larry Bigbie, a former Orioles player who we interviewed in our investigation, confirmed that he observed Tejada injecting himself with vitamin B12 in the clubhouse restroom.279 The report that four players on a major league team were self-administering an injectable substance should have been a cause of concern, even if the players said that the substance they were injecting into themselves was vitamin B12.


Indeed, the presence of syringes in a major league clubhouse, by itself, should have been a cause of significant concern. 276 Id. at 19-20. During the arbitration challenging the positive steroid test, Palmeiro had testified about receiving the vitamin B12 but did not assert that he believed it was the reason for his positive drug test. Id. at 11. 277 Id. at 25.
278 Id. at 30. Player A gave the investigators a vial of the vitamin B12 that he had received from Tejada, which was tested and found not to contain any banned substances. Id. at 31. 279 Bigbie also told us that he had conversations with Palmeiro while they were both playing with the Orioles in which Palmeiro asked him about his source of steroids and human
growth hormone (the source was Kirk Radomski) and how the substances made him feel. Bigbie said that Palmeiro denied in those conversations that he had ever used performance enhancing
substances himself.

106

During the summer of 2005, Tejada met with representatives from both the
Players Association and the Commissioner’s Office, who told him he should stop injecting himself with vitamin B12 and take the vitamin in pill form instead.280

[msn]

its because you were to big of a homer to see the truth.
The "truth", eh? A guy spent $65 million and talked to hundreds upon hundreds of people on the inside of this nonsense, turned over mountains of paper, and got exactly zero people to mention his name.

You can arrive at your conclusions all you want, but it's nothing more than a circumstancial hypothesis and is no more "truth" than the next made up fecal-matter someone drones on based on what they've seen in pictures and on the tee-vee.

And, I'll see your "homer" and raise you a "hater". Hater.

[bejezuz]

I don't think Tejada is in any real trouble. You've got talk of him discussing steroids with people, the whole B12 scandel (old news), and a couple checks to another player. In other words, MLB ain't got squat. Sure, it's guilt by association, but other than that he can plausibly deny using.

[ThePrivate]

L. Unreported Incidents


During this investigation we learned of a number of other instances in which club personnel came across potential evidence of a player’s use of steroids or other performance enhancing substances but did not report that evidence as required by baseball’s drug policy.

Those unreported incidents included the following.

In 1999, Barry Waters, the director of team travel for the Houston Astros,
received a telephone call from an employee of a hotel where the Astros had just stayed, reporting that a package had arrived at the hotel addressed to an alias that was used by Ken Caminiti, who then played for Houston. The hotel forwarded the package to Waters, who opened it and found glass vials containing a white liquid that he believed to be anabolic steroids and pills that he believed to be vitamins.

Waters did not deliver the vials to Caminiti, but believing incorrectly that there was no policy requiring him to report the incident, he did not report the matter to anyone else with the Astros or to the Commissioner’s Office. Caminiti later admitted that he had used steroids during his playing career in a widely read Sports Illustrated article that was published in June 2002.290

[sammy]

nope, bagwell, luis and finley DID NOT make the list

Luis didnt do anything shady ? look at his numbers

57 freaking homeruns in 2001. are you saying that he is one of the best hitters of all time without any help ?? he hit over 30 homeruns only one other time in his career.

[sammy]

The "truth", eh? A guy spent $65 million and talked to hundreds upon hundreds of people on the inside of this nonsense, turned over mountains of paper, and got exactly zero people to mention his name.

You can arrive at your conclusions all you want, but it's nothing more than a circumstancial hypothesis and is no more "truth" than the next made up fecal-matter someone drones on based on what they've seen in pictures and on the tee-vee.

And, I'll see your "homer" and raise you a "hater". Hater.

I've said this before and I will say it again...I loved Bagwell just like everyone else but he was shady. He looked like a body builder out there....get a clue

[JPM0016]

Luis didnt do anything shady ? look at his numbers

57 freaking homeruns in 2001. are you saying that he is one of the best hitters of all time without any help ?? he hit over 30 homeruns only one other time in his career.

No one said that. However there is no factual proof. Without proof its nothing more than speculation and rumors. There are 60 to 80 players who have now been exposed. That's what this is about, not who we think, but who has been outed.

[sammy]

No one said that. However there is no factual proof. Without proof its nothing more than speculation and rumors. There are 60 to 80 players who have now been exposed. That's what this is about, not who we think, but who has been outed.

you would make a good defense attorney :)

I dont need any proof to know that Luis Gonzales used illegal methods to hit 57 homeruns in a season.

[leroy420]

I've said this before and I will say it again...I loved Bagwell just like everyone else but he was shady. He looked like a body builder out there....get a clue

Could that be because he really enjoyed working out? Do all people that build muscle use steroids? Are you going to blame his shoulder condition while at the same time forgetting that his father had the same exact arthritic condition?

[tinman]

hahahahahahahahaha!
NBA >>> MLB

[justtxyank]

hahahahahahahahaha!
NBA >>> MLB

Mitchell Report vs Out of Bounds

Out of Bounds details the culture of rape, drugs, and violent crime that is more common in the NBA than any other sport.

[ThePrivate]

Roger Clemens


Roger Clemens is a pitcher who, from 1984 to 2007, played for four teams in
Major League Baseball, the Boston Red Sox (13 seasons), Toronto Blue Jays (2 seasons), New York Yankees (6 seasons), and Houston Astros (3 seasons). He has won more than 350 games, seven Cy Young Awards, and was the American League Most Valuable Player in 1986. He was named to All-Star teams eleven times.

During the Radomski investigation, federal law enforcement officials identified
Brian McNamee as one of Radomski’s customers and a possible sub-distributor. McNamee, through his attorney, entered into a written agreement with the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Northern District of California. The agreement provides that McNamee will cooperate with the
U.S. Attorney’s Office. No truthful statements can be used against McNamee in any federal prosecution by that Office; if, however, he should be untruthful in any statements made pursuant to that agreement, he may be charged with criminal violations, including making false statements, which is a felony.

As part of his cooperation with the U.S. Attorney’s Office, and at its request,
McNamee agreed to three interviews by me and my staff, one in person and two by telephone. McNamee’s personal lawyer participated in the interviews. Also participating were federal prosecutors and agents from the F.B.I. and the Internal Revenue Service. On each occasion,

168

McNamee was advised that he could face criminal charges if he made any false statements during these interviews, which were deemed by the prosecutors to be subject to his written agreement with the U.S. Attorney’s Office. McNamee attended St. John’s University in New York from 1985 to 1989, majoring in athletic administration. At St. John’s, he played baseball. From 1990 to May 1993, he was a New York City police officer.
In 1993, McNamee met Tim McCleary, the assistant general manager of the
New York Yankees, who also had attended St. John’s. McCleary hired McNamee as a bullpen catcher and batting practice pitcher for the New York Yankees. In 1995, McNamee was released from his duties after Joe Torre was named the new Yankees manager. From 1995 to 1998, McNamee trained “Olympic caliber athletes” outside of baseball.

In 1995, McCleary was hired as the assistant general manager for the Toronto Blue Jays. In 1998, that club hired McNamee as its strength and conditioning coach, and he served in that position from 1998 to 2000.
Roger Clemens signed with Toronto in 1997, after spending the first thirteen
years of his career with the Red Sox. After McNamee began working for the Blue Jays in 1998, he and Clemens both lived at the Toronto SkyDome (there is a hotel attached to the stadium).

McNamee and Clemens became close professionally while in Toronto, but they were not close socially or personally. Jose Canseco was playing for the Blue Jays in 1998. On or about June 8-10, 1998, the Toronto Blue Jays played an away series with the Florida Marlins. McNamee attended
a lunch party that Canseco hosted at his home in Miami. McNamee stated that, during this luncheon, he observed Clemens, Canseco, and another person he did not know meeting inside

169

Canseco’s house, although McNamee did not personally attend that meeting. Canseco told members of my investigative staff that he had numerous conversations with Clemens about the benefits of Deca-Durabolin and Winstrol and how to “cycle” and “stack” steroids. Canseco has
made similar statements publicly.385

Toward the end of the road trip which included the Marlins series, or shortly after the Blue Jays returned home to Toronto, Clemens approached McNamee and, for the first time, brought up the subject of using steroids. Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee’s help.

Later that summer, Clemens asked McNamee to inject him with Winstrol, which Clemens supplied. McNamee knew the substance was Winstrol because the vials Clemens gave him were so labeled. McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in Clemens’s apartment at the SkyDome. McNamee never asked Clemens where he obtained the steroids.

During the 1998 season (around the time of the injections), Clemens showed
McNamee a white bottle of Anadrol-50.386 Clemens told McNamee he was not using it but wanted to know more about it. McNamee told Clemens not to use it. McNamee said he took the

385 Jose Canseco, Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant ‘Roids, Smash Hits and How Baseball
Got Big 211-13 (Regan Books 2005).
386 Anadrol 50 is the brand name for oxymetholone and, according to a reference book targeted at steroid abusers, “is considered by many to be the most powerful steroid commercially available.” See William Llewellyn, Anabolics 2006 99 (5th ed. 2006). It can harm the liver and produce pronounced androgenic side effects. Id. at 100.

170


bottle and gave it to Canseco.387 McNamee does not know where Clemens obtained the Anadrol-50.

According to McNamee, from the time that McNamee injected Clemens with
Winstrol through the end of the 1998 season, Clemens’s performance showed remarkable improvement. During this period of improved performance, Clemens told McNamee that the steroids “had a pretty good effect” on him. McNamee said that Clemens also was training harder and dieting better during this time.

In 1999, Clemens was traded to the New York Yankees. McNamee remained
under contract with the Blue Jays for the 1999 season. In 2000, the Yankees hired McNamee as the assistant strength and conditioning coach under Jeff Mangold. According to McNamee, the Yankees hired him because Clemens persuaded them to do so. In this capacity, McNamee worked with all of the Yankees players. McNamee was paid both by the Yankees and by
Clemens personally. Clemens hired McNamee to train him during portions of several weeks in the off-season. McNamee also trained Clemens personally for one to two weeks during spring training and a few times during the season. McNamee served as the Yankees’ assistant strength and conditioning coach through the 2001 season.388 McNamee first learned about Kirk Radomski through David Segui during the 2000 season. Also that season, McNamee obtained Radomski’s telephone number from Jason
Grimsley. McNamee wanted to buy a Lexus, and Radomski had a connection with a Lexus dealer. Radomski recalled that Grimsley was a frequent customer for performance enhancing 387 McNamee stated that he showed the bottle to Canseco because he thought that Canseco was knowledgeable and he felt comfortable approaching him. According to McNamee,
Canseco volunteered to take the bottle. 388

In his own interview, Mangold was reluctant to discuss McNamee in any respect. Mangold said that he was not aware of, and never suspected, any player of using performance enhancing substances.


171


substances, and he produced nine checks written by Grimsley to Radomski during 2001 and 2002 and fourteen checks in total.
According to McNamee, during the middle of the 2000 season Clemens made it clear that he was ready to use steroids again. During the latter part of the regular season, McNamee injected Clemens in the buttocks four to six times with testosterone from a bottle labeled either Sustanon 250 or Deca-Durabolin that McNamee had obtained from Radomski. McNamee stated that during this same time period he also injected Clemens four to six times with human growth hormone he received from Radomski, after explaining to
Clemens the potential benefits and risks of use. McNamee believed that it was probably his idea that Clemens try human growth hormone. Radomski instructed McNamee how to inject human growth hormone. On each occasion, McNamee administered the injections at Clemens’s apartment in New York City.

McNamee said that he and Clemens did not have any conversations regarding
performance enhancing substances from late 2000 until August 2001. McNamee did, however, train Clemens and Andy Pettitte during the off-season at their homes in Houston. Clemens often invited other major league players who lived in the Houston area to train with him. McNamee’s training relationship with Clemens and others has been described publicly. Peter Gammons reported during spring training 2001:

Brandon Smith, an apprentice trainer with the Yankees, describes Roger
Clemens’ day as follows: “He’s one of the first players in every morning,
runs, does his program with Andy Pettitte, does the team program
workout, goes to the weight room, leaves, plays 18 holes of golf and
finally meets (trainer) Brian McNamee at 6 .. . . and a few other players –
for another workout. It’s incredible how much energy Roger has.”389

389 Peter Gammons, Indians Expecting Better Year, espn.com, Mar. 11, 2001; see also
Gary Graves, Clemens on Fire with Desire; Rigorous Workouts Keep 38-year-old All-Star
Sharp, In Shape, USA Today, July 10, 2001, at C3.

172

According to McNamee, Clemens advised him in August 2001 that he was again ready to use steroids. Shortly thereafter, McNamee injected Clemens with Sustanon or Deca-Durabolin on four to five occasions at Clemens’s apartment. According to McNamee, he again obtained these drugs from Kirk Radomski. McNamee concluded from Clemens’s statements and conduct that Clemens did not like using human growth hormone (Clemens told him that he did not like the “bellybutton shot”). To McNamee’s knowledge, Clemens did not use human growth hormone in 2001.

McNamee was not retained by the Yankees after the 2001 season. After that
season, Clemens never again asked McNamee to inject him with performance enhancing substances, and McNamee had no further discussions with Clemens about such substances. McNamee stated that Clemens did not tell him why he stopped asking him to administer performance enhancing substances, and McNamee has no knowledge about whether Clemens used performance enhancing substances after 2001.

During the years that McNamee stated he facilitated Clemens’s use of steroids and human growth hormone, McNamee’s discussions with Clemens about use of these drugs were limited. McNamee assumed that Clemens used performance enhancing substances during the second half of the season so that he would not tire, but they did not discuss this directly. It was Clemens who made the decision when he would use anabolic steroids or human growth hormone. McNamee stated that he tried to educate Clemens about these substances; he “gave him as much information as possible.”
Clemens continued to train with McNamee after he was dismissed by the
Yankees, according to both McNamee and press reports. In October 2006, after the Los Angeles Times reported that the names of Clemens and McNamee were among those that had been

173


redacted from an affidavit in support of a search warrant for the residence of Jason Grimsley as allegedly involved with the illegal use of performance enhancing substances, Clemens was reported to have said: “I’ll continue to use Mac [McNamee] to train me. He’s one of a kind.”390

McNamee was quoted in a December 10, 2006 news article on steroids as
reportedly having said: “I never, ever gave Clemens or Pettitte steroids. They never asked me for steroids. The only thing they asked me for were vitamins.”391 McNamee told us that he was accurately quoted but that he did not tell the truth to the reporter who interviewed him. He explained that he was trying to protect his reputation. On May 15, 2007, the New York Daily News reported that Clemens had cut ties to McNamee.392

McNamee denied that and told us that he trained Clemens after the article was published. He added that Clemens now has a home in the New York area, and McNamee personally installed a gym there.

McNamee stated that he has no ill will toward Clemens and “was always ahead [financially] with Roger.” McNamee received money for expenses from Clemens’s business representatives. They paid McNamee for training Clemens, and for his expenses. From time to time Clemens also gave McNamee “extra money.” Clemens never gave money to McNamee specifically to buy performance enhancing substances.
Kirk Radomski recalled meeting McNamee through David Segui. Radomski
confirmed that he supplied McNamee with human growth hormone and anabolic steroids from


390 Jack Curry, Cloud Over Clemens’s Finale: He and Pettitte Deny Report, N.Y. Times,
Oct. 2, 2006, at D1; Lance Pugmire, The Nation; Clemens Is Named in Drug Affidavit,
L.A. Times, Oct. 1, 2006, at A1.
391 See William Sherman and T.J. Quinn, Andy Totes Baggage to Bronx, N.Y. Daily
News, Dec. 10, 2006, at 56. McNamee’s interactions with Pettitte are discussed below.
392 Christian Red with T.J. Quinn, Roger Seeking Workout Help, N.Y. Daily News,
May 15, 2007.

174

2000 to 2004. Although McNamee never told Radomski the performance enhancing substances obtained were for anything other than McNamee’s personal use, Radomski concluded that McNamee was distributing the substances to others based on the amounts he purchased and the timing of the purchases.

Radomski knew McNamee was acting as personal trainer for Roger Clemens,
Andy Pettitte, and Chuck Knoblauch (among others), and he suspected McNamee was giving the performance enhancing substances to some of his clients. Occasionally, McNamee acknowledged good performances by Knoblauch or Clemens by “dropping hints,” such as “[h]e’s on the program now.” McNamee never explicitly told Radomski that either Clemens or Pettitte was using steroids or human growth hormone. According to Radomski, however, McNamee asked Radomski what types of substances Radomski was providing to pitchers.

Radomski delivered the substances to McNamee personally. Radomski recalled
numerous performance enhancing substance transactions with McNamee. Radomski also sometimes trained some of McNamee’s non-professional athlete clients. Radomski produced four checks from McNamee that were deposited into Radomski’s checking account and drawn on McNamee’s checking account.393 All the checks were dated in 2003 and 2004, after McNamee said that he supplied Clemens, Pettitte, and Knoblauch. McNamee said these purchases were for non-baseball clients. McNamee’s name, with an address and telephone number, is listed in the address book seized from Radomski’s residence by federal agents. Radomski’s telephone records show twelve calls to McNamee’s telephone number from May through August 2004. Radomski was 393 One of the checks, in the amount of $2,400, includes a memo stating “Loan Repay Sub.” Radomski confirmed that he never loaned McNamee any money and that the check had been for one-and-a-half kits of human growth hormone.175

unable to obtain telephone records dating back to the time when, according to McNamee, McNamee was injecting Clemens.

Clemens appears to be one of the two people associated with baseball – Andy Pettitte is the other – who have remained loyal to McNamee after he left the Yankees.394

Clemens has remained a source of income for McNamee up to and including 2007.

Prior to my interviews of McNamee he was interviewed by federal officials on
several occasions, during each of which they informed McNamee that he risked criminal prosecution if he was not truthful. I was advised by those officials that on each occasion he told them about the performance enhancing substance use of Clemens, Andy Pettitte, and Chuck Knoblauch (Pettitte and Knoblauch are discussed below).


In order to provide Clemens with information about these allegations and to give him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined.



[SIZE=4][B]Andy Pettitte[/B][/SIZE]

Andy Pettitte is a pitcher who since 1995 has played with two teams in Major
League Baseball, the New York Yankees (10 seasons) and the Houston Astros (3 seasons). He has been named to the All-Star team twice and was Most Valuable Player in the 2001 American League Championship Series.

McNamee began serving as Pettitte’s personal trainer and started assisting Pettitte in off-season workouts after the 1999 season. According to McNamee, during the 2001-02 offseason, Pettitte asked him about human growth hormone. McNamee said that he discouraged Pettitte from using human growth hormone at that time.394

Ben Bolch, Clemens, Pettitte Deny Use of Drugs, L.A. Times, Oct. 2, 2006, at D1.

176

From April 21 to June 14, 2002, Pettitte was on the disabled list with elbow
tendonitis.395 McNamee said that Pettitte called him while Pettitte was rehabilitating his elbow in Tampa, where the Yankees have a facility, and asked again about human growth hormone. Pettitte stated that he wanted to speed his recovery and help his team.

McNamee traveled to Tampa at Pettitte’s request and spent about ten days
assisting Pettitte with his rehabilitation. McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone that McNamee obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions. Pettitte paid McNamee for the trip and his expenses; there was no separate payment for the human growth hormone.


According to McNamee, around the time in 2003 that the BALCO searches
became public, Pettitte asked what he should say if a reporter asked Pettitte whether he ever used performance enhancing substances. McNamee told him he was free to say what he wanted, but that he should not go out of his way to bring it up. McNamee also asked Pettitte not to mention his name. McNamee never discussed these substances with Pettitte again. After the 2001 season, Pettitte, like Clemens, continued to use McNamee’s services and to serve as a source of income after McNamee was dismissed by the Yankees. In a 2006 article, Pettitte “acknowledged an ongoing relationship” with McNamee. Pettitte was quoted as having said that he still talked to McNamee about once a week. “Mac has trained me professionally for a long time, and I’ll continue to use Mac,” Pettitte said.396

In order to provide Pettitte with information about these allegations and to give him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined. 395

See Jack Curry, Pettitte Relieved to Have Tendonitis, N.Y. Times, May 1, 2002, at D3.
396 Ben Bolch, Clemens, Pettitte Deny Use of Drugs, L.A. Times, Oct. 2, 2006,

[sammy]

Could that be because he really enjoyed working out? Do all people that build muscle use steroids? Are you going to blame his shoulder condition while at the same time forgetting that his father had the same exact arthritic condition?

Well we know that he at least had help from andro which was like a legal steroid at the time.

Another thing we know....he would have beaten Maris' homerun record that season. What do the 3 guys that have beaten that record have in common ?

[tinman]

Mitchell Report vs Out of Bounds

Out of Bounds details the culture of rape, drugs, and violent crime that is more common in the NBA than any other sport.

Take me out to the ball park
Take me out to the crowd
buy Pettitte and Bonds some roids and crack
I don't care if their forehead is fat
cause we root root root for the home team
if they don't win its a shame
that its 1, 2 ,3 hundred roids players
that play the old ball game!

[msn]

I've said this before and I will say it again...I loved Bagwell just like everyone else but he was shady. He looked like a body builder out there....get a clue
You "get a clue". You're judging the book by its cover--a cover you've only seen on a freaking TV screen or looking down from a couple of hundred feet away in the bleachers.

I'd be an idiot to dogmatically state that he didn't and call it "truth". And it is *equally* idiotic for you or anyone else to state that he did and call it "truth". Say likely if you wish. Say probable if you wish. But it ain't "truth". Only Bagwell and probably his closest friends know the "truth."

[l3igballer23]

wow, the info on clemens is pretty thorough.

[justtxyank]

Take me out to the ball park
Take me out to the crowd
buy Pettitte and Bonds some roids and crack
I don't care if their forehead is fat
cause we root root root for the home team
if they don't win its a shame
that its 1, 2 ,3 hundred roids players
that play the old ball game!

OOOOOOOO COOL!

Now do one where you sing about Ruben Patterson, Kobe Bryant, etc. raping or sexually assaulting women and all the other ones who are doing drugs! Then maybe you can throw in a line about them being involved in shootouts at strip clubs at all hours of the morning! Maybe add a line about choking out their coaches! Oh and don't forget to add a part about Carmelo Anthony warning people not to report crime to the police or they will get killed!

I love this game!

[MexiMan1390]

Stephen Randolph is on the report to if anyone cares...
might of been to fight his nagging injuries

[DoitDickau]

Well we know that he at least had help from andro which was like a legal steroid at the time.

Another thing we know....he would have beaten Maris' homerun record that season. What do the 3 guys that have beaten that record have in common ?


Power numbers went up across the board in baseball in 1994. Everyone had increases in power that year, not just bagwell. Fatass Tony Gywnn slugged 570 that year. Frank Thomas put up virtually identical power numbers to Bagwell that year. Does that mean he took steroids too?

Caminiti and Bagwell were pretty tight and played together through 1995. Cammy been pretty frank about his usage. He's stated that he didn't start until 1996. You'd think that if bagwell were using during 94 that Cammy would have known about it and wouldn't have to wait until years later with the padres to start asking people about the benefits of steroids.


As far as i can tell the only evidence against bagwell is his increase in weight during his 20's and he subsequent muscle loss when he was crippled and forced to stop lifting weights due to his shoulder injury. That ain't exactly compelling evidence. A world-class athlete putting on 35 lbs over a 7-8 year stretch in his early to mid 20's isn't the same as Bond putting on 20 lbs in the offseason as a 40 yr old. Likewise he has a legitimate excuse for shedding the weight once his shoulder injury forced him to stop lifting.

That doesn't mean that he didn't use some illegal PED, but as far as i can tell there is little evidence that points to that. And what little observational evidence does exists is pretty flimsy.

[sammy]

You "get a clue". You're judging the book by its cover--a cover you've only seen on a freaking TV screen or looking down from a couple of hundred feet away in the bleachers.

I'd be an idiot to dogmatically state that he didn't and call it "truth". And it is *equally* idiotic for you or anyone else to state that he did and call it "truth". Say likely if you wish. Say probable if you wish. But it ain't "truth". Only Bagwell and probably his closest friends know the "truth."

Isn't andro practically a steroid? Isn't it banned from every sport? So we do know for a fact that he took something that was taken off the shelves later....

But I see where you are coming from. I should have said he more than likely took steroids

[DoitDickau]

Isn't andro practically a steroid? Isn't it banned from every sport? So we do know for a fact that he took something that was taken off the shelves later....

But I see where you are coming from. I should have said he more than likely took steroids

When was andro banned from baseball? from other sports?

[msn]

Isn't andro practically a steroid? Isn't it banned from every sport? So we do know for a fact that he took something that was taken off the shelves later....
Yes, but as you note it was allowed at the time.

But I see where you are coming from. I should have said he more than likely took steroids
Thanks for acknowledging this. It's really my only beef with the crowd that wants to accuse Bagwell.

Dickau, great post.

[msn]

When was andro banned from baseball? from other sports?
Don't remember the exact dates, but MLB was the *last* to ban andro (iirc) and did so some time after 1998.

[rrj_gamz]

I downloaded the report and am still sifting around, but I didn't see Bags or Pujols (cards suck anyways)...

I read Justice's poor excuse of a whine session and that's all he does...Didn't we all have a clue before the trade went down yesterday that Miggy was accused...Meaning there was a good chance he was going to be in the report? What a joke...

I'm not condoning what these guys did, but just don't spin it like, "OMG, I can't believe they cheated"...BS...

[NewRoxFan]

Has there been any word at all from Astro management? It would seem that they have to recognize that there is a PR problem at the very least that they need to address (just from the timing of the trade and report).

There were the expected articles raving about the move when it happened and Astros management understandably stood in the spotlight. Seems they should also be willing to step up now, even if to only say they are still working through the report and standing by their new player...

[NewRoxFan]

btw, would the same folks that are saying "it was naive to think Tejada was clean" or "it really doesn't matter now" that Tejada was named be pounding the other players and teams *if* Tejada hadn't been named?

[weslinder]

Take me out to the ball park
Take me out to the crowd
buy Pettitte and Bonds some roids and crack
I don't care if their forehead is fat
cause we root root root for the home team
if they don't win its a shame
that its 1, 2 ,3 hundred roids players
that play the old ball game!

The NBA has a few roiders itself, and the NFL has (estimated) hundreds more than MLB. I think you're a fan of those sports.

[Icehouse]

You mean the hearsay that came from Bonds own lips when he admitted using the "cream" and the "clear"?

Bonds admitted to using something provided by his trainer. He never said it was steroids and his trainer never said it was steroids. What they have on Bonds is hearsay, the same thing this report is (at least at this point….the govt may now have new info but Barry has been convicted on heresay up until now).

[ThePrivate]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5376995.html


Dec. 13, 2007, 4:59PM


Clemens enlists attorney to fight steroid allegations


By JOSE DE JESUS ORTIZ
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle


After being implicated of steroids use in the report former Senator George Mitchell released this afternoon, Roger Clemens has enlisted the services of powerful Houston attorney Rusty Hardin to defend him from the accusations.

"Roger Clemens vehemently denies allegations in the Mitchell report that he used performance-enhancing steroids, and is outraged that his name is included in the report based on the uncorroborated allegations of a troubled man threatened with federal criminal prosecution. Roger has been repeatedly tested for these substances and he has never tested positive. There has never been one shred of tangible evidence that he ever used these substances and yet he is being slandered today,” Hardin said in a release sent to the media.

“The use of steroids in sports is a serious problem, it is wrong and it should be stopped.

“However, I am extremely upset that Roger’s name was in this report based on the allegations of a troubled and unreliable witness who only came up with names after being threatened with possible prison time.”

In the release, Hardin's office specifically addressed the claims that were made in the Mitchell Report by Clemens' former trainer Brian McNamee, who also linked Andy Pettitte to steroids use.

"Brian McNamee, a former trainer who worked with Clemens on the Toronto Blue Jays and the New York Yankees, has repeatedly denied these current claims, including in June of this year when he was first contacted by federal investigators," the release stated. "According to McNamee, after a day of repeated denials to federal investigators, he changed his story under the threat of federal criminal prosecution. He says he was then forced by those federal prosecutorial authorities to tell the same story for inclusion in the Mitchell report."

McNamee was Clemens' trainer. On the last day of the 2006 season, Clemens and Pettitte vouched for McNamee after reports in the Los Angeles Times circulated linking Clemens and Pettitte to steroids use.

“I am at a total loss to understand how it is proper for federal prosecutorial authorities to use the threat of criminal prosecution to help in a private business investigation,” Hardin said in the statement. “I have great respect for Senator Mitchell. I think an overall look at this problem in baseball was an excellent idea. But I respectfully suggest it is very unfair to include Roger’s name in this report. He is left with no meaningful way to combat what he strongly contends are totally false allegations. He has not been charged with anything, he will not be charged with anything and yet he is being tried in the court of public opinion with no recourse. That is totally wrong.”

Clemens and Pettitte have the same baseball agents, Randy and Alan Hendricks of Houston.

"I have advised Andy that as an active player, he should refrain from commenting until we have had an opportunity to speak with his union and other advisors," Randy Hendricks said in a brief statement. "At the appropriate time, he will have something to say.”

jesus.ortiz@chron.com

[Major]

But I respectfully suggest it is very unfair to include Roger’s name in this report. He is left with no meaningful way to combat what he strongly contends are totally false allegations.

Nonsense. He had every opportunity to talk to the Mitchell investigation and chose not to. Now he claims its unfair that the report was published without his side of the story?

[ThePrivate]

Nonsense. He had every opportunity to talk to the Mitchell investigation and chose not to. Now he claims its unfair that the report was published without his side of the story?

Bingo!

[LScolaDominates]

Nonsense. He had every opportunity to talk to the Mitchell investigation and chose not to. Now he claims its unfair that the report was published without his side of the story?

Roger would have been crazy to talk to the investigators. There is no guarantee of due process in the Mitchell investigation.

I despise Clemens as much as the next guy, but he has a legitimate case and a damm good attorney.

[Major]

I despise Clemens as much as the next guy, but he has a legitimate case and a damm good attorney.

A case for what? And against who?

[SamFisher]

Power numbers went up across the board in baseball in 1994. Everyone had increases in power that year, not just bagwell. Fatass Tony Gywnn slugged 570 that year. Frank Thomas put up virtually identical power numbers to Bagwell that year. Does that mean he took steroids too?

Caminiti and Bagwell were pretty tight and played together through 1995. Cammy been pretty frank about his usage. He's stated that he didn't start until 1996. You'd think that if bagwell were using during 94 that Cammy would have known about it and wouldn't have to wait until years later with the padres to start asking people about the benefits of steroids.


As far as i can tell the only evidence against bagwell is his increase in weight during his 20's and he subsequent muscle loss when he was crippled and forced to stop lifting weights due to his shoulder injury. That ain't exactly compelling evidence. A world-class athlete putting on 35 lbs over a 7-8 year stretch in his early to mid 20's isn't the same as Bond putting on 20 lbs in the offseason as a 40 yr old. Likewise he has a legitimate excuse for shedding the weight once his shoulder injury forced him to stop lifting.

That doesn't mean that he didn't use some illegal PED, but as far as i can tell there is little evidence that points to that. And what little observational evidence does exists is pretty flimsy.

Flimsy? I see a skinny kid who put on massive amounts of muscle right in the middle of the steroid epidemic, whose muscle mass, performance and body started to break down when MLB started drug testing. That raises a good deal of red flags to me.

And to answer your first contention - it is defintely possible that Frank THomas took steroids, though he seems to be a naturally bigger guy. However he did play football where steroids are commonplace as well, IIRC. Though it should be noted that Frank Thomas voluntarily spoke with Mitchell. DId Bagwell do so?

[DoitDickau]

And to answer your first contention - it is defintely possible that Frank THomas took steroids, though he seems to be a naturally bigger guy. However he did play football where steroids are commonplace as well, IIRC. Though it should be noted that Frank Thomas voluntarily spoke with Mitchell. DId Bagwell do so?

I don't know. As a former player not directly alleged to ever have taken steroids was he even asked to? Even if he did refuse to talk I don't find that of much probative value.

Regardless, my main point was that you can't single out Bagwell's (who was 26 and entering he prime years) 1994 increased HR totals without acknowledging the across the board increase in HR/PA and total offense throughout the major leagues that year.


Flimsy? I see a skinny kid who put on massive amounts of muscle right in the middle of the steroid epidemic, whose muscle mass, performance and body started to break down when MLB started drug testing. That raises a good deal of red flags to me.


Well i don't find find it particularly persuasive. Obviously, given baseball's/sports' culture any athlete that puts on significant muscle mass will be viewed with a certain amount of suspicion, but i don't see anything in Bagwell's case that rises above that. For age 21 to about age 30 he put on ~30 lbs of mostly muscle. First, it's substantially easier to build muscle for an early to mid twenty-year old than it is for someone 30yrold plus. Second, he put on the muscle over a period of years. It didn't just happen over night. So as an elite athlete in his 20's I don't find it unreasonable that he could put on 30ish pounds in an 8 year period without the help of illegal PED. I mean this isn't a 38 year old Barry bonds putting on a lot of weight in a very short period of time.

The weight loss looks shady as you put it, but you forgot to mention that he had perfectly reasonable explanation for it. Around 2002 he hurt his shoulder so bad that he needed shoulder replacement surgery at the end of his career. By 2004 he could barely raise he right hand over his head much less lift weights. Guess what, if you stop lifting weights you are going to lose muscle mass, which is actually what happened after bagwell crippled this shoulder. I guess his weight loss from the end of 2001-2007 could be attributed to him stopping steroid use, but his injured shoulder and the inactivity attributed to it, is an independent and completely sufficient cause of Bagwell's weight loss.

[SamFisher]

I don't know. As a former player not directly alleged to ever have taken steroids was he even asked to? Even if he did refuse to talk I don't find that of much probative value.

Regardless, my main point was that you can't single out Bagwell's (who was 26 and entering he prime years) 1994 increased HR totals without acknowledging the across the board increase in HR/PA and total offense throughout the major leagues that year.

Well you asked why nobody questioned Frank Thomas - I'm willing to question him. I'm willing to question everybody. From Roger Clemens to Chris Donnels.




Well i don't find find it particularly persuasive. Obviously, given baseball's/sports' culture any athlete that puts on significant muscle mass will be viewed with a certain amount of suspicion, but i don't see anything in Bagwell's case that rises above that. For age 21 to about age 30 he put on ~30 lbs of mostly muscle. First, it's substantially easier to build muscle for an early to mid twenty-year old than it is for someone 30yrold plus. Second, he put on the muscle over a period of years. It didn't just happen over night. So as an elite athlete in his 20's I don't find it unreasonable that he could put on 30ish pounds in an 8 year period without the help of illegal PED. I mean this isn't a 38 year old Barry bonds putting on a lot of weight in a very short period of time.

I don't think it took 8 years, more like 2 or 3. The guy came to the astros in 1991 - by 1994 at the latest he was significantly more muscled. Anyway, I don't find it totally unreasonable that an elite athlete in his 30's can add muscle mass. To some extent, as your metabolism slows as you get older, anabolic processes are helped rater than hindered.

Most of the champion world's strongest men are in their 30's - assuming that all of them are juicing (a good bet), why aren't 20 year old strongmen winning it? Granted there are many reasons, but I don't think, at least, as far as in terms of adding pure muscle mass goes, being over 30 means you're screwed. Another example, the current open division world powerlifting champ, Ove Lehto, has a listed birthdate of 1972.

Anyway - i don't see how it matters much, just because Barry used steroids & HGH in his 30's doesn't mean somebody else didn't do it in his 20's. I remember seeing bagwell's normal workout routine in a fitness website once - it was psycotich and unfathomable.


The weight loss looks shady as you put it, but you forgot to mention that he had perfectly reasonable explanation for it. Around 2002 he hurt his shoulder so bad that he needed shoulder replacement surgery at the end of his career. By 2004 he could barely raise he right hand over his head much less lift weights. Guess what, if you stop lifting weights you are going to lose muscle mass, which is actually what happened after bagwell crippled this shoulder. I guess his weight loss from the end of 2001-2007 could be attributed to him stopping steroid use, but his injured shoulder and the inactivity attributed to it, is an independent and completely sufficient cause of Bagwell's weight loss.
Again, it seems like a too convenient coincidence that his inability to recover from injuries began right around the time MLB began to get serious about performance enhancing drugs.

Perhaps he is just unfortunate victim of circumstance - but really nothing sruprises me anymore. If I had to bet money on it, one way or the other, I would bet on Jeff B having at least experimented with steroids at some point.

[Raven Lunatic]

Preach it Dickau. The point is, there is no clear evidence that Bagwell never used roids, but simultaneously there is no clear evidence that he DID. Any speculation that he did is based on evidence that can easily be explained away. For that reason, the guy is innocent until proven guilty...to me.

And for those mentioning that Selig won't be able to successfully punish anyone based on this report; there is already precedence set for a player to be suspended based on evidence surrounding a player's steroid use in the absence of a failed drug test. The Player's Union agreed to the suspension and agreed to allow it as a precedence for the future. If the report has incontrovertible evidence that a player used, I think Selig could easily suspend them if he decides to. It's mentioned somewhere in the first 15 pages or so of the report. I'll go find it.

In addition, in June 2006 Arizona Diamondbacks pitcher Jason Grimsley was
suspended for 50 games based on “non-analytic” evidence that he had violated the policy, specifically, his reported admissions to federal agents that he had used steroids and human growth hormone. In September 2007, Cincinnati Reds catcher Ryan Jorgenson also was suspended for 50 games based on non-analytic evidence that he had violated the joint program.
In December 2007, two players, Jay Gibbons and Jose Guillen, were each suspended for 15 days based on non-analytic evidence of past violations of the joint program.

Then later on...

At the time, the Major League Baseball joint drug program did not provide for discipline based on “non-analytic evidence” (that is, evidence of use that is not derived from sources other than a drug test) of the use of prohibited substances. In suspending Grimsley, therefore, the Commissioner relied on his general authority under the Basic Agreement to impose
discipline in the “best interests of baseball,” which (subject to the requirement that discipline be based on “just cause”) had been the basis for drug-related suspensions before the joint drug program was added to the Basic Agreement in 2002. Suspensions can be imposed under the express provisions of the program: for failed drug tests; for failure to comply with a prior treatment program; for a conviction or guilty plea involving the possession or use of a prohibited substance; or for participating in the sale or
distribution of a prohibited substance. The Players Association said it would file grievances challenging both the threatened termination of Grimsley’s contract by the Diamondbacks and the Commissioner’s 50-game suspension of him. Negotiations followed, and a settlement was reached between the
Players Association and the Commissioner’s Office, which also acted on behalf of the Diamondbacks. Under the settlement, the salary that Grimsley would have lost as the result of the 50-game suspension was retained by the Diamondbacks, which agreed to donate it to charity.
Grimsley was paid the salary remaining due under the contract, and he also agreed to donate the funds to charity. In the settlement, the Players Association and the Commissioner’s Office also agreed to two statements as binding precedent under the joint drug program: the Players Association agreed that the imposition of a 50-game suspension under the circumstances
presented was permissible; and the Commissioner’s Office agreed that a club’s termination of a player contract under the circumstances would be a violation of the joint drug program.

[DoitDickau]

Well you asked why nobody questioned Frank Thomas - I'm willing to question him. I'm willing to question everybody. From Roger Clemens to Chris Donnels.

At this point i wouldn't be surprised at any names associated with steroids. When Nefi Perez is outed you know it's not just the big bad sluggers that are using. What i was trying to say by mentioning gwynn's and thomas' names is that 1994 saw huge increases in power numbers by everyone in baseball including those who are universally seen as steroid free. I would say that Thomas' meeting with mitchell works in his favor, but i wouldn't hold anyone's refusal to meet (esp those not involved/alleged) against them.





I don't think it took 8 years, more like 2 or 3. The guy came to the astros in 1991 - by 1994 at the latest he was significantly more muscled. Anyway, I don't find it totally unreasonable that an elite athlete in his 30's can add muscle mass. To some extent, as your metabolism slows as you get older, anabolic processes are helped rater than hindered.

Most of the champion world's strongest men are in their 30's - assuming that all of them are juicing (a good bet), why aren't 20 year old strongmen winning it? Granted there are many reasons, but I don't think, at least, as far as in terms of adding pure muscle mass goes, being over 30 means you're screwed. Another example, the current open division world powerlifting champ, Ove Lehto, has a listed birthdate of 1972.

Anyway - i don't see how it matters much, just because Barry used steroids & HGH in his 30's doesn't mean somebody else didn't do it in his 20's. I remember seeing bagwell's normal workout routine in a fitness website once - it was psycotich and unfathomable.

bagwell didn't reach his peak weight until at least around 1998 if not more like 2000. This is all just my recollection, so take it for what it's worth, but i doubt bagwell was more than 10-15 heavier in 1994 than as a rookie in 1991 if that. It's not unreasonable to think that a top professional athlete in his early 20 can put on that amount of weight in 3 years without the help of illegal PED.

As far as your World Strongest Man question, my guess would be that to get to the weight, stength, and total muscle mass needed to compete at that level would take years. Work and, probably steroid abuse, from one's teenage/early 20 years probably into one's 30's. One can gain strength much easier in their 20's but to get to the cumulative amount of weight/strength needed to compete at that level probably take a long number of years. Which would explain the number of 30 yr olds in the competition.

It's not my contention that athletes are at their peak weight, muscle mass, strength, in their early 20's, only that it's easier at that time to put on muscle quickly. I don't disagree that anyone in the 30, and much later, can put on muscle mass, just that it gets significantly harder once you get past your early mid 20's. However, if someone started lifting/ using steroids at 20 and continues, i would guess that he/she could lift more in their 30 than in their 20's even if it's easier to gain the younger they are.

Bonds raises more red flags because he put on more muscle weight at an older age and at a much quicker rate than bagwell. It's much hard/more unusual for some one to put on that amount of muscle naturally in their late thirties than it is in their early 20's. It's also my contention that he put on the weight in a much shorter period of time.


Again, it seems like a too convenient coincidence that his inability to recover from injuries began right around the time MLB began to get serious about performance enhancing drugs.

Perhaps he is just unfortunate victim of circumstance - but really nothing sruprises me anymore. If I had to bet money on it, one way or the other, I would bet on Jeff B having at least experimented with steroids at some point.

It might or might not have been convenient to this point, but do you deny that he didn't experience the injury or the symptoms? And his injury wasn't just a typical baseball injury, his shoulder was really messed up. IIRC torn rotator, labrum tear (both of which even in this day of advanced surgery are basically career ending for pitchers), and arthritis. Add to that the fact that apparently his father had the same condition in his shoulder and there may be a genetic argument to the injury? Btw he injured his shoulder and began to experience weight/muscle loss and performance loss at the end of 2001. MlB didn't begin testing until 2003.

Basically i don't know if he used. He might well have, but I don't think the evidence we have on him is anywhere close to enough to say with any certainity that he did. And that observational evidence can be explained by practical reasons.

[DoitDickau]

Most of the champion world's strongest men are in their 30's - assuming that all of them are juicing (a good bet), why aren't 20 year old strongmen winning it? Granted there are many reasons, but I don't think, at least, as far as in terms of adding pure muscle mass goes, being over 30 means you're screwed. Another example, the current open division world powerlifting champ, Ove Lehto, has a listed birthdate of 1972.

Let me try to clarify my explanation. I'm far from an expert, but from what i understand it my be easier for an ~18 to put on muscle than even for the same person at 25. yet even if that person at 18 gains more muscle quicker, he still will be stronger/ have more muscle mass at 25 than at 18 (provide he keeps lifting, yada). It's a question of cumulative strength/mass vs. the ability to add muscle quickly.

[Kam]

Watch out.


Roger has hired Rusty Hardin.

[tinman]

The NBA has a few roiders itself, and the NFL has (estimated) hundreds more than MLB. I think you're a fan of those sports.
I found someone who doesn't use Roids for the MLB!!
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/opvBzRxIIP0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/opvBzRxIIP0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[DoitDickau]

I really need to contribute so that i can edit my posts :( :


It may or may not have been convenient to this point, but do you deny that he experienced the injury or the symptoms?

[Raven Lunatic]

I really need to contribute so that i can edit my posts :( :

I would have quoted Shawshank Redemption. :)

"Well, considering that I am innocent of these charges, I find it decidedly INconvenient."

[tinman]

OOOOOOOO COOL!

Now do one where you sing about Ruben Patterson, Kobe Bryant, etc. raping or sexually assaulting women and all the other ones who are doing drugs! Then maybe you can throw in a line about them being involved in shootouts at strip clubs at all hours of the morning! Maybe add a line about choking out their coaches! Oh and don't forget to add a part about Carmelo Anthony warning people not to report crime to the police or they will get killed!

I love this game!

basketball:
son- dad, i keep missing this free throw
dad- just practice, remember your follow through and rotation

baseball:
son- dad, i can't hit this home run or throw the ball 95 mph.
dad- stick your arm out ....(needle injection) there you go!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[weslinder]

Irony:

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[justtxyank]

basketball:
son- dad, i keep missing this free throw
dad- just practice, remember your follow through and rotation

baseball:
son- dad, i can't hit this home run or throw the ball 95 mph.
dad- stick your arm out ....(needle injection) there you go!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oooooh another good one!

How about this one:
Basketball
Son: Dad, what am I supposed to do when I think the babysitter is hot.
Dad: Slam her head against the table and rape her.

Or maybe:
Son: Dad, what am I supposed to do after a game?
Dad: Go to a strip club and get in a gunfight!

[tinman]

Oooooh another good one!

How about this one:
Basketball
Son: Dad, what am I supposed to do when I think the babysitter is hot.
Dad: Slam her head against the table and rape her.

Or maybe:
Son: Dad, what am I supposed to do after a game?
Dad: Go to a strip club and get in a gunfight!

none of this affects a jump shot.

drugs affect homeruns and fastballs.

[rimrocker]

I'm not of the Bagwell is absolutely clean camp... I have my suspicions... but his career did follow a more normal arc in terms of stats. Nothing really jumps out at you except perhaps his batting average during his MVP year. His best RBI years are his early 30's and then they start to taper off. Average and Slugging% follow the same pattern.

Whereas Bonds hits 258 HRs between the ages of 35 and 40? No way.

Whereas Clemens has a total SO number of 460 between the ages of 30 and 33... where his record is 29-25, but then goes for 820 strike outs during the next 3 years... which includes his highest SO total ever and 3 of his top 4... and has a record of 51-26? No way... that just does not happen naturally for pitchers (unless you're a knuckleballer). Not coincidentally, that jump in productivity started when he went to Toronto.

[tinman]

Clemens, Pettitte, Tejedja??

The Astros??? no..

THE

ASTEROIDS

[A-Train]

Clemens, Pettitte, Tejedja??

The Astros??? no..

THE

ASTEROIDS

http://spyhunter007.com/Images/asteroids_game_screen.jpg

[DoitDickau]

And for those mentioning that Selig won't be able to successfully punish anyone based on this report; there is already precedence set for a player to be suspended based on evidence surrounding a player's steroid use in the absence of a failed drug test. The Player's Union agreed to the suspension and agreed to allow it as a precedence for the future. If the report has incontrovertible evidence that a player used, I think Selig could easily suspend them if he decides to. It's mentioned somewhere in the first 15 pages or so of the report. I'll go find it.

I don't know. I seriously doubt any players get suspended over this. At the very least I'd expect to MLBPA to vigorously fight any attempt at punishment.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were just Selig attempting to engage in PR gamesmanship with the union. By making his statement at a time when the public and the media are at an uproar over this issue he appears proactive. A union response against this kind of punishment puts them in a very public unpopular position right now. I think that's one of the main reason why Fehir was so cautious and almost tepid is his response yesterday.

[MadMax]

Clemens, Pettitte, Tejedja??

The Astros??? no..

THE

ASTEROIDS

if we all just ignore you, will you go away?

[tinman]

if we all just ignore you, will you go away?
i'll be here til the end of time MadMax!

Hey, don't blame me, I didn't make this Mitchell thing up. I'm happy about it! you're just hating on my enjoyment.

[weslinder]

http://bp2.blogger.com/_drUMJ9HF-tQ/R2Ka8DMuWUI/AAAAAAAAA7M/sR1Aw4JyHNk/s1600-h/clemens+butt.jpg

[weslinder]

I don't know why the pic won't show up. Here's a link:
http://huggingharoldreynolds.blogspot.com/2007/12/headline-clemens-took-it-in-butt.html

[MadMax]

i'll be here til the end of time MadMax!

Hey, don't blame me, I didn't make this Mitchell thing up. I'm happy about it! you're just hating on my enjoyment.

i'll just go on ignoring you, anyway. :D

why you'd be happy about this is beyond me...but ok.

[tinman]

i'll just go on ignoring you, anyway. :D

why you'd be happy about this is beyond me...but ok.

haha, I'll never ignore you MadMax, you've chosen the best nickname on the BBS, that's why i'm so jealous of you!
;)

I told you I don't know why I'm so happy, maybe I like to see the big evil empire of baseball get a pie in its face.

[rocketsjudoka]

Irony:

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To be fair chewing tobacco doesn't enhance performance. I do like the bit of 'roid rage Roger shows at the end when he grabs the kid by the shirt coller. ;)

[liamrock]

MLB is likely to focus on punishing those in the Mitchell Report whose violations took place after the 2003 season, ESPN reports.

George Mitchell had the right idea about how foolish it was to try to punish a few select players who were caught for infractions committed years ago, but Bud Selig didn't spend millions not to get a few attempted suspensions out of it. ESPN mentions Eric Gagne, Paul Lo Duca, Rondell White, Larry Bigbie, Ron Villone, Ryan Franklin, Cody McKay, Stephen Randolph, Jerry Hairston Jr., Bart Miadich, Matt Herges, Brendan Donnelly, Howie Clark and Nook Logan as players whose violations came between 2004 and 2006.
Source: ESPN.com

[MadMax]

MLB is likely to focus on punishing those in the Mitchell Report whose violations took place after the 2003 season, ESPN reports.

George Mitchell had the right idea about how foolish it was to try to punish a few select players who were caught for infractions committed years ago, but Bud Selig didn't spend millions not to get a few attempted suspensions out of it. ESPN mentions Eric Gagne, Paul Lo Duca, Rondell White, Larry Bigbie, Ron Villone, Ryan Franklin, Cody McKay, Stephen Randolph, Jerry Hairston Jr., Bart Miadich, Matt Herges, Brendan Donnelly, Howie Clark and Nook Logan as players whose violations came between 2004 and 2006.
Source: ESPN.com

Tejada was 2003, huh?

[pgabriel]

soooo, should the players union sue mlb for publishing this information. One large class action considering there maybe some truth and some false accusations.

[MadMax]

soooo, should the players union sue mlb for publishing this information. One large class action considering there maybe some truth and some false accusations.

i don't think so. slander is really fact-specific per each person. i think, if anything, you'll see a lawsuit or 2 from individuals. but the burden is high, so i don't know that they'd see any success in a courtroom. again...how do you prove a negative? how do you prove you didn't do something? particularly when it's a he said/he said situation.

[Major]

i don't think so. slander is really fact-specific per each person. i think, if anything, you'll see a lawsuit or 2 from individuals. but the burden is high, so i don't know that they'd see any success in a courtroom. again...how do you prove a negative? how do you prove you didn't do something? particularly when it's a he said/he said situation.

Plus, wouldn't the player have to testify in that scenario?

[Major]

I know this isn't the right thread for this, but some of you had wondered what the benefit of naming names in the Mitchell report was and felt that it served no purpose.

I think, had it been a pretty generic "lots of guys in MLB did steroids" report, it would have been talked about for a few days and then swept under the rug. The specifics of it has kept this in the media and led to more congressional hearings and such. Now, we have our first player coming out in support of blood testing:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3191880

I think the more you shine a light on the problem, and the more you're willing to share about what you know, the more it forces the players and management to come together and deal with it. You saw it with the first congressional hearings and how they spurred the current drug policy, and now you're seeing it again with the talks of reopening and strengthening the policy.

[MadMax]

I know this isn't the right thread for this, but some of you had wondered what the benefit of naming names in the Mitchell report was and felt that it served no purpose.

I think, had it been a pretty generic "lots of guys in MLB did steroids" report, it would have been talked about for a few days and then swept under the rug. The specifics of it has kept this in the media and led to more congressional hearings and such. Now, we have our first player coming out in support of blood testing:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3191880

I think the more you shine a light on the problem, and the more you're willing to share about what you know, the more it forces the players and management to come together and deal with it. You saw it with the first congressional hearings and how they spurred the current drug policy, and now you're seeing it again with the talks of reopening and strengthening the policy.

1. I don't have a problem naming names when you have more evidence then, "i talked to this guy who knows ferris and he says he's doing steroids." i think parroting uncorroborated allegations is irresponsible, particularly for something as significantly touted as this report was.

2. i don't think kent is the first to suggest he'd submit to blood tests. long before the mitchell report was prepared and submitted, there were players suggesting they had nothing to hide and better testing would be welcomed by them.

[msn]

i don't think kent is the first to suggest he'd submit to blood tests. long before the mitchell report was prepared and submitted, there were players suggesting they had nothing to hide and better testing would be welcomed by them.
Including, iirc, our very own Lance Berkman.