ClutchFans - Sage Rosenfels vs. Matt Schaub

ima_drummer2k

12-10-2007, 08:51 AM

Okay, this is NOT just a reactionary thread to the game yesterday.

I'm starting to wonder if we should have just gone to war with Sage this year and saved the 2nd round draft picks we gave up for Schaub.

Throughout Sage's whole tenure with the Texans, we've been saying "yes, he played good but it's just the preseason" or "yes, he played good but it was in garbage time against the 2nd team defense" etc.

Bottome line is Sage has looked just as good if not better than Matt Schaub. In his Texans career, Sage has 14 TD's and 8 INT's. Schaub has 9 TD's and 9 INT's. Sage is 2-0 as a starter this year (don't forget about his almost comeback against the titans), Schaub 4-7.

At what point do we stop saying his play is just a fluke?

Since we seem to be building this franchise around the defense, perhaps we don't need a superstar QB. Maybe just a good game manager, which Sage seems to be. He's somewhat poised in the pocket, throws a very catchable ball, is durable and seems to make good decisions more often than bad ones. Not saying he's Bart Starr, but this team seems to click when he's in there.

Thoughts?

MadMax

12-10-2007, 08:55 AM

It's about upside. I believe Schaub has more upside. He's 3 years younger than Rosenfels and is just now coming in as a starter in this league. I think in a couple of years Schaub will develop well enough that we'll laugh at the notion that we should have gone with Rosenfels, instead.

ryan17wagner

12-10-2007, 08:56 AM

I don't think Schaub is anything special. Just an average QB who's frail. He and Favre had the exact same injury and Favre played yesterday.

rhester

12-10-2007, 09:06 AM

Sage=Matt

Hindsight is good

we should have kept both 2nd rd. picks

But, that being said it has been nice to have two good QB's of fairly equal play and style.

That isn't bad.

msn

12-10-2007, 09:08 AM

I don't see Schaub committing those two awful fumbles yesterday.

If it's the two picks we're questioning I hear you loud and clear. If it's straight up Schaub v. Rosenfels, I still take Schaub--though I'm admittedly standing on the thin, fragile ice of "upside".

updawg

12-10-2007, 09:12 AM

with our o-line we need two capable qb's. I still think schaub has more upside and will work out. But it is something I've wondered for a while.

Its funny because when this was asked a year ago people were bashed for bringing it up.

Either way, Carr had to go and I think almost everyone realizes that was the correct move.

macalu

12-10-2007, 09:15 AM

I don't think Schaub is anything special. Just an average QB who's frail. He and Favre had the exact same injury and Favre played yesterday.
Favre dislocated his shoulder?

updawg

12-10-2007, 09:16 AM

Favre dislocated his shoulder?
his non-throwing should in the dallas game

leroy420

12-10-2007, 09:22 AM

I don't think Schaub is anything special. Just an average QB who's frail. He and Favre had the exact same injury and Favre played yesterday.

Favre also had an extra 3 days to recover. From some reports, Schaub wasn't far from being able to play.

msn

12-10-2007, 09:28 AM

I heard Schaub was out for the year? Do you have a link? I'd be very pleased to know he's not out for the year.

macalu

12-10-2007, 09:28 AM

really, how many QBs outside of Favre are going to play after a dislocated shoulder anyways. i wouldn't call Schaub frail. he got cheap shotted once and was out one game. and a dislocated shoulder would put most people out at least a week.

it does concern me that Sage seems to be outplaying Schaub.

Jturbofuel

12-10-2007, 09:30 AM

Sage just turns the ball over too much for me. That fumble when we were in field goal range was just a retarded play all he had to do is fall down and we get 3pts.

RocketFan007

12-10-2007, 09:34 AM

Maybe just a good game manager, which Sage seems to be.

I think Schaub is a better game manager than Sage. While Sage may put up more yards and throw a few more touchdowns, he just seems a lot more mistake prone than Schaub. This season Rosenfels has thrown an INT once every 22 passes, ehile Schaub has thrown one once ever 32.

I like both guys, but I think we'll see a much better Schaub next year in his second year in this offense and hopefully behind a better offensive line.

No Worries

12-10-2007, 09:44 AM

Statistics don't lie. Sage is better than Schaub.

Given how bad our OL is at pass protection (the direct cause of both fumbles), it really does not matter who our QB is. By the time that the Texans have rebuilt their OL, Sage or Schaub will likely be David-Carr-isized and the Texans will be looking for their next QB.

msn

12-10-2007, 09:50 AM

Statistics don't lie.
Oh, yes they do.

RocketFan007

12-10-2007, 09:52 AM

Statistics don't lie. Sage is better than Schaub.

Then what do you have to say about my post above yours? Sage throws more INTs than Schaub. How does that prove what you just said?

msn

12-10-2007, 09:55 AM

And here we have two sets of statistics that argue a different side of the same argument.

See--one could ultimately find some statistic to support any conclusion at which one wishes to arrive, no matter how far-fetched.

A premium example: early last season I was vehemently spitting out completion percentage and QB rating in defense of David Carr, who (I think this is how I put it) might never be a Pro-Bowl QB but would be an above-average QB if he had a decent line and running game.

Erm, WRONG.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" didn't become a cliché on accident.

You need statistics, but you need them in their proper context, and you need more than just statistics.

ryan17wagner

12-10-2007, 09:57 AM

Favre also had an extra 3 days to recover. From some reports, Schaub wasn't far from being able to play.

Then Schaub should be playing this Thursday vs. Denver, but he's not.

leroy420

12-10-2007, 09:58 AM

Then Schaub should be playing this Thursday vs. Denver, but he's not.

Says who?

Dubious

12-10-2007, 09:58 AM

Statistics don't lie

They never tell the whole truth either. Like who the opposition was, who had Andre Johnson on the field, who had tipped balls and dropped passes. Who was quarterbacking when the team was actually trying to establish a running game.

Schaub's better, if he can play. The coaches had seen a lot of Rosenfels and weren't comfortable with him as the franchise QB. The real truth to be gleaned from this situation is that in the NFL you better have two capable quarterbacks.

Although strangely this year the best quarterbacks Brady Romo and Manning
haven't missed a down. And Farve just a little. That's almost wierd.

gunn

12-10-2007, 09:59 AM

By the time that the Texans have rebuilt their OL, Sage or Schaub will likely be David-Carr-isized and the Texans will be looking for their next QB.

I really don't think this will be the case. I think they are going to get o-line help this offseason. With the way the running back depth is looking for this upcoming draft I think they will be able to get a good back in the 3rd or 4th which would allow them to use their top pick on and offensive lineman. Combine that with a good amount of cap space and this could be a nice offseason for the team. I'm excited about the options.

No Worries

12-10-2007, 10:04 AM

Then what do you have to say about my post above yours? Sage throws more INTs than Schaub. How does that prove what you just said?

In his Texans career, Sage has 14 TD's and 8 INT's. Schaub has 9 TD's and 9 INT's.

and from http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5557

This year Sage has 11 TD's and 7 INT's.

This season Rosenfels has thrown an INT once every 22 passes, ehile Schaub has thrown one once ever 32.

Rosenfels has thrown a TD once every 14 passes, while Schaub has thrown has thrown one once every 32 passes.

Tha TC

12-10-2007, 10:08 AM

No Worries

12-10-2007, 10:13 AM

I think they are going to get o-line help this offseason.
I sure hope that you are right but ... The Texans OL was not addressed last off season AND if addressed in the draft this offseason that would still mean that the OL is 2-3 years from being ready.

leroy420

12-10-2007, 10:20 AM

I sure hope that you are right but ... The Texans OL was not addressed last off season AND if addressed in the draft this offseason that would still mean that the OL is 2-3 years from being ready.

To be fair, the line was playing pretty well prior to Seth McKinney's injury. I think they were counting on Spencer playing some role this year. I'm not saying they shouldn't have drafted someone. But we'd be looking a little better with the opening day OL.

SWTsig

12-10-2007, 10:22 AM

ipaman

12-10-2007, 10:23 AM

Thoughts?

longterm their both sht if you don't get a stud rb and stud lt.

Rokkit

12-10-2007, 10:23 AM

I think some of you are shortchanging Schaub. When he's in, and his team is healthy, he has been pretty solid. I really liked what I saw early this season.

Of course, Sage has as well. But I don't like the turnovers and how Rosenfels has made them. I think clearly he could be a starter in the League.

But whoever talked about upside is dead on.

weslinder

12-10-2007, 10:25 AM

Shaub looked great at the beginning of the year then when AJ went out he looked horrible... Sage has AJ... i think we need a real threat at RB and another WR but i have a feeling we're going to go with defense again this year in the draft...

I agree with you on the RB, but I'd put the Texans' WR core up against almost anyone's. After the Lions, Bengals, Patriots, and Colts, who has a better set of receivers than Johnson, Davis, Walter, Jones, and Daniels?

Any high picks will go for OL, running back, and/or DB.

rezdawg

12-10-2007, 10:31 AM

Another thing to consider, besides the 2 second round draft picks we gave up for Schaub, is the fact that we also gave him a pretty big contract (6 years, 48 million).

I think it is a luxury to have 2 quality QB's on our team, but at this point, Im not quite sure we made the right choice here. We gave up too much to have Schaub coming in and out of games. He needs to take a hit or two and he needs to improve. Otherwise, I think we may have been better off with Sage behind center.

updawg

12-10-2007, 10:33 AM

i think we need a real threat at RB and another WR but i have a feeling we're going to go with defense again this year in the draft...
d-line and wr are the two areas that they better not draft for this year.

gucci888

12-10-2007, 10:37 AM

Don't remember where I heard this but they were saying how the backup QB is always one of the most popular players on teams. I guess that is especially true when your starting QB hasn't played exceptionally well.

I like what we get from Sage, he is a very solid QB that has a good arm and really good accuracy. He is turnover prone but so is this entire team. With that said, there must be some reason he has always been a backup in the NFL.

RocketFan007

12-10-2007, 10:38 AM

In his Texans career, Sage has 14 TD's and 8 INT's. Schaub has 9 TD's and 9 INT's.

and from http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5557

This year Sage has 11 TD's and 7 INT's.

This season Rosenfels has thrown an INT once every 22 passes, ehile Schaub has thrown one once ever 32.

Rosenfels has thrown a TD once every 14 passes, while Schaub has thrown has thrown one once every 32 passes.

Right, so as I said in my first post in this thread, Sage will throw more TDs, but he'll also turn the ball over more often. That doesn't obviously make him a better QB than Schaub. As the Texans have seen this season, turnovers will absolutely kill you in the NFL.

ipaman

12-10-2007, 10:44 AM

rezdawg

12-10-2007, 10:47 AM

we were able to get rid of carr by getting schuab. that's worth the 48 million contract right there :D

Well, we could have just cut Carr.

But yes, if it meant Carr is off the roster, Im all for it. Man, I cant believe I supported that guy. The dude is 3rd string in Carolina...and that is with Delhomme being injured. Haha.

pgabriel

12-10-2007, 10:49 AM

i like sage, been liking him since last season's preseason. have nothing against schaub though.

Ric

12-10-2007, 12:55 PM

I don't see Schaub committing those two awful fumbles yesterday.
schaub's fumbled 7 times this year.

msn

12-10-2007, 01:03 PM

schaub's fumbled 7 times this year.
Which is a pace of less than one per game. How many fumbles does he have inside the opponent's 25 yard line?

WoodlandsBoy

12-10-2007, 01:22 PM

The reasons we picked up Shaub:
1) Needed to sell the hope of a franchise QB after Carr failed
2) Sage was hurt last year when he would have replaced Carr and since Sage couldn't play they didn't want to go into this year with a unsure Backup as the starter when he was bad as a starter in Miami and Washington.
3) Sage has a really cap friendly backup QB contract. 4year 8 million.
4) You need 2 quality QBs.

Why I like Sage over Schaub is easy:

In the red zone Sage converts drives into TD not FG. Schaub drives down the field and stalls in the red zone.

ind0fo0

12-11-2007, 06:33 PM

Says who?

i heard it aswell in the last game or maybe the chron. cant remember.

i like sage's game- except the two fumbles last game :o

Mr. Clutch

12-11-2007, 07:36 PM

How much upside does Schaub have? He has a very average arm and he's not mobile.

He's very smart and understands the game, but those things keep his upside limited.

Achilleus

12-11-2007, 07:42 PM

How much upside does Schaub have? He has a very average arm and he's not mobile.

He's very smart and understands the game, but those things keep his upside limited.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb303/tbraswell29/brady_tom_340.jpg

Mr. Clutch

12-11-2007, 07:50 PM

If you think Brady has an average arm you are crazy.

And he is more mobile than Schaub.

Achilleus

12-11-2007, 07:53 PM

If you think Brady has an average arm you are crazy.

What? He's said so himself... He made a joke about it earlier this season. But whatever proves your point, guy.

Mr. Clutch

12-11-2007, 08:01 PM

What? He's said so himself... He made a joke about it earlier this season. But whatever proves your point, guy.

Well then Schaub must have below average arm strength.

KingCheetah

12-11-2007, 08:02 PM

If Sage wins out it should be his job to lose at the start of training camp.

Rocket River

12-11-2007, 08:03 PM

Schaub's better, if he can play. The coaches had seen a lot of Rosenfels and weren't comfortable with him as the franchise QB.

Honestly . .this little nugget is getting tiresome
because
Coaches saw alot of David Carr and thought he WAS A FRANCHISE QB
Alot of folx here said otherwise . . for a long time before the coaches caught on

I've been saying Sage + 2 2nd rouders >> Schaub

Put those 2 2nd rounders on the O-Line
and I think we looking alot better right about now
Hell
IMO
Sage > Schaub anyway

Rocket River
Sage has never gotten NEAR the shot Schaub or Carr has

msn

12-11-2007, 08:39 PM

Mr. Clutch

12-11-2007, 08:54 PM

By "Schaub isn't mobile," do you mean he can't scramble like Elway? Because I think he was moving around in the pocket pretty well (though a: I'm not an expert and b: perhaps anything looks good in a pocket when I'm used to watching DC in the pocket).

I think he's just really slow, compared to even Carr. Obviously, he's smarter than Carr in the pocket, but I don't think he's going to hardly ever pick up first downs with his legs. Whereas someone like even Carr could do it on occasion.

ryan17wagner

12-11-2007, 10:52 PM

Says who?

I say say so. I don't report lies:

Texans QB Matt Schaub is getting a second opinion on his dislocated left shoulder. "I'm going to get a second opinion and see how things go," he said Monday. "The range of motion's getting there. I'm starting to work on the strength. It's a work in progress, but it's getting better." Schaub is hoping to return this season, but the odds are against him. -- Houston Chronicle

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5367473.html