I'm not defending the Mario Williams pick....

[Mattj]

But Vince Young looks a whole lot like Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens right about now. I guess it's pretty obvious Albert Haynesworth is the most important player on the Titans. No Haynesworth, no run defense, no victory.

[RocketManJosh]

I've never been a believer in VY, but it doesn't matter how he plays to some on this board. He is god. He has a few great intangibles, but overall as a QB, he is far from great.

[rhino17]

im not saying vince played good, but you haveto admit, he has the WORST recieving core in the NFL. The whole passing game looks clueless most of the time

[DaDakota]

One game...one game...he will come around.

DD

[Mattj]

One game...one game...he will come around.

DD
I'm not giving up on him...but it's not one game....he's having a bad season...One reason....Madden Curse.....

[ryan17wagner]

I'm not giving up on him...but it's not one game....he's having a bad season...One reason....Madden Curse.....

Curses don't exist.

[jev5555]

Curses don't exist.
Tell that to Luis Castillo.

[ryan17wagner]

Tell that to Luis Castillo.

I did. Now what?

[RocketFan007]

Not to mention Bush is having a pretty terrible season as well. It's not a stretch to say that Mario is having the best season out of the top 3 picks.

[IC2000]

Not to mention Bush is having a pretty terrible season as well. It's not a stretch to say that Mario is having the best season out of the top 3 picks.
What the hell has mario done? Not a damn thing. He is terrible!!!

[tulexan]

But Vince Young looks a whole lot like Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens right about now. I guess it's pretty obvious Albert Haynesworth is the most important player on the Titans. No Haynesworth, no run defense, no victory.

As bad as Vince is, Reggie is worse. Where is the guy who was supposed to keep defensive coordinators up at night trying to figure out how to stop him?

[Mattj]

As bad as Vince is, Reggie is worse. Where is the guy who was supposed to keep defensive coordinators up at night trying to figure out how to stop him?

Reggie's not great, but his numbers aren't terrible...After a bad afternoon today, he's still on pace for about 1,400 yards (rushing and receiving) and 10 TD's. The hometown hero that was missed on was obviously Joseph Addai. :D

[WildSweet&Cool]

I've never liked Vince Young's game.

But I subscribe to the camp of "if we didn't want Young or Reggie, we should've traded the pick".

[RocketFan007]

What the hell has mario done? Not a damn thing. He is terrible!!!

What has your boy Reggie Bush done this year? Averaging less than 4 yards a carry, only getting 5.5 yards per reception, and scoring only 5 TDs. I'd say Mario's 4 sacks at least equal what Bush has done this season.

[Chuck 4]

Youre going to get flamed if you dare say anything negative about The Messiah on this board...

...I dont get it either...

[doboyz]

What has your boy Reggie Bush done this year? Averaging less than 4 yards a carry, only getting 5.5 yards per reception, and scoring only 5 TDs. I'd say Mario's 4 sacks at least equal what Bush has done this season.

I've come to the conclusion that Reggie Bush is a poor mans Dominick Davis (Williams), when he was healthy.

[hatemavs4life]

What has your boy Reggie Bush done this year? Averaging less than 4 yards a carry, only getting 5.5 yards per reception, and scoring only 5 TDs. I'd say Mario's 4 sacks at least equal what Bush has done this season.

Oh yeah, 7 carries for 17 yds vs the Lambs really qualifies Bush as a superstar.

Color me, blah ... blah ... blah, baaaaaaaaaaddddd!!!

Bush is more all blow and no show. Addai is a keeper and AP is looking good though he ran into the GB buzzsaw today! :D The Vikes need a REAL QB or AP may get run down like the Duke of Earl once was here.

[hatemavs4life]

I've come to the conclusion that Reggie Bush is a poor mans Dominick Davis (Williams), when he was healthy.

Eric Metcalf, Dave Meggett not a superstar!

[hatemavs4life]

What the hell has mario done? Not a damn thing. He is terrible!!!

Have you even watched Mario at ALL this year? If Mario is terrible, then Reggie is pathetic. Got it? :rolleyes:

[El Toro]

If you please, I would like to present my theory on the whole debacle concerning who the Texans should have drafted number one overall (yea I know it's over a year too late!) In doing such I liken the number one overall draft pick of Mario Williams to Harry Potter......please let me explain :D

One of the themes of Harry Potter, which is better explained in The Deathly Hallows, is of destiny and faith and how much of how we live our lives is due to a predestined timeline versus the choices we make on a daily basis. When Harry learns about the prophecy that was made in which Harry was revealed to be the one who would destroy Lord Voldemert, the second half of the same prophecy (which as the readers know was never heard by Voldemert) stated that another child (Neville) also possessed the same characteristics and could potentially thwart Voldemert just the same. Voldemort assumed it was Harry that would destroy him and went after him with the killing curse, thereby marking Harry as the "Chosen One" and setting up the entire storyline as we know it today.

The book argues that Harry may not have been the chosen one by faith or destiny, that it was Voldemort who chose to make Harry his equal by attacking him and effectively altering Harry's future from then on. Would Neville have possessed the same characteristics throughout the series if Voldemert went after him? Is this to say that the prophecy is flawed to begin with or justified because everything turned out as it should have?

My point is this, what if Mario Williams was never picked number one overall? What if the draft order played out like most fans and "experts" believed it would (or should). Mario may have slipped to another team, probably in the top ten of the draft order, and the Texans would likely have had Vince Young or Reggie Bush and here we would be talking about how either of those individuals is capable and living up to the number one draft choice. Mario Williams would not have the kind of pressure placed onto him as the number one overall pick, slipping out of the top slot and possibly doing fairly well, putting up respectable numbers for non-top five pick team. While I don't think Mario will ever live up to the number one billing , I think he is preconceived to be fulfilling of the top pick status that probably should never have been placed on him, but we scrutinize it just the same. If things had played out differently on draft day, it's hard to how well the Texans would be doing. Ultimately I think it's up to Mario to play like he's worthy of the top pick and for the fans to realize there's no undoing the draft and hopefully support the team as it goes on.

Ok, I'm done :cool:

[gucci888]

None of the big 3 are having a good season IMO. Sophomore slump? I think everyone was expecting big things from VY and Bush this season, especially considering how well they played last season.

As far as Mario, other than a good first game, he hasn't been much of a factor for us at all. It's frustrating to watch him play.

[IC2000]

What has your boy Reggie Bush done this year? Averaging less than 4 yards a carry, only getting 5.5 yards per reception, and scoring only 5 TDs. I'd say Mario's 4 sacks at least equal what Bush has done this season.
Why did you answer with reggie bush talk. What does that have to do with Mario williams sucking? In my opinion all three are dissapointing

[IC2000]

Have you even watched Mario at ALL this year? If Mario is terrible, then Reggie is pathetic. Got it? :rolleyes:
I watch him every game. I am shocked if he ever makes a play. Its sad when nd kalu or another one of those crappy linemen makes more plays then the number one pick. Bush sucking doesnt make it ok for williams to suck too. At least demeco ryans was a great pick

[hatemavs4life]

I watch him every game. I am shocked if he ever makes a play. Its sad when nd kalu or another one of those crappy linemen makes more plays then the number one pick. Bush sucking doesnt make it ok for williams to suck too. At least demeco ryans was a great pick

Hmmm ... Mario has 4 sacks, fumble recovery for a TD and several tackles for negative yardage on RB's. That's not sucking. I mean he's still learning again, NOT sucking! We're not a playoff contender this year so no need to panic. We fix our secondary issues in the offseason and all the sudden with D-Ryans with some blitzes and more creativity with the defensive calls plus another year of seasoning, Mario and 'Mobi will be better.

Now, check out the heralded Rucker and Peppers combination in Carolina? Would you rather have them or Okoye and Williams?

[Ashes]

I did. Now what?
Tell it to Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, and Shaun Alexander.

[A-Train]

Damn, Matt Jackson is starting threads now. I'm fully expecting a "what's in your CD player" thread by the end of the week, Matt...

[H-Town Info]

Tell it to Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, and Shaun Alexander.

and also to marshall faulk, eddie george, and daunte culpepper

[tinman]

Not to mention Bush is having a pretty terrible season as well. It's not a stretch to say that Mario is having the best season out of the top 3 picks.
isn't Reggie Bush dating Rihana? that's 7 points right there every week.
he's scoring TDs, his total numbers aren't bad.

Williams, Young, and Bush are still healthy
Can't say that for Leinart

Cutler found himself a good running back.. ironically its Selvin Young!

[Major Malcontent]

As a running back, Reggie Bush is a helluva slot receiver. As a quarterback, Vince Young is a helluva running back. I am not gonna join the radical "intangibles don't exist...its all reflected in the numbers crowd". Vince does seem to perform a little better when the Titans NEED a drive, but honestly that D and running game would make even leftover meatloaf like Kerry Collins look like a feast.

Reggie and VY can be a cog for the Saints and Titans respectively and can help em win games. There is a VERY long list of skill position players who are just better. However, we are never gonna stop hearing about em, cause ESPN has to have something to ride the jock of when the Yankees and Red Sox are out of season..and Bush seems to be their boy. As for VY, the UT hoard on this board will still be singing along to Bruce Springsteen's glory days and jocking VY when he is 50. And thats natural I guess, if my boy Andre Ware had actually won the Cougars a National Championship, I would probably be an apologist for his pro numbers and would call in twice a week to ride his jock for a while.

[Bogey]

Hmmm ... Mario has 4 sacks, fumble recovery for a TD and several tackles for negative yardage on RB's. That's not sucking. I mean he's still learning again, NOT sucking! We're not a playoff contender this year so no need to panic. We fix our secondary issues in the offseason and all the sudden with D-Ryans with some blitzes and more creativity with the defensive calls plus another year of seasoning, Mario and 'Mobi will be better.

Now, check out the heralded Rucker and Peppers combination in Carolina? Would you rather have them or Okoye and Williams?


It's good to know Kubiak is posting on this board.

[emjohn]

One game...one game...he will come around.

LOL

You forgot to include the smiley, people'll think you were serious ;)

[macalu]

none of the top 3 picks from that draft were worthy of being top 3.

[ghettocheeze]

Titans are 6-3 in the freaking loaded AFC and still 1 game behind Indy for the division lead. So I don't see how VY is having a bad season. He may be in slump lately but the guy can still win games. His receivers are pretty much below average and the talent around him isn't so great like Indy or New England. When you play in the toughest division in the league then you are bound to lose a few games here and there.

[pgabriel]

vince has played a season and a haf worth of games. there is hardly any qb drafted in the last three seasons performing well outside of jay cutler. these threads back and forth are ridiculous. vince has a good game, the supporters come out, he has a bad game, now even radio hosts come out.

i've listened to mattj since he was cougar matt, don't let him fool you, he doesn't want to see vince succeed, part of his cougar envy. everyone relax.

[NewRoxFan]

As a running back, Reggie Bush is a helluva slot receiver. As a quarterback, Vince Young is a helluva running back.

As a defensive end, Mario Williams is a helluva line backer? ;)

[MadMax]

As a defensive end, Mario Williams is a helluva line backer? ;)

maybe. ;)

[dskillz]

5 years from now Mario, Vince and Reggie will be known as some pretty average players.

[VesceySux]

none of the top 3 picks from that draft were worthy of being top 3.

Man, ain't that the truth? It's amazing, given the hype prior to the draft.

[Desert_Rocket]

You just insulted Trent Dilfer.

[Desert_Rocket]

I'd like to know what Rich Lord has to say about this......

[Major]

Man, ain't that the truth? It's amazing, given the hype prior to the draft.

What people forget when talking about the hype was that 2 of the 3 were considered projects. Bush was Bush and people ignored his negatives. But for Vince, most people didn't even think he would start during his first year in the NFL. He was the one most people talked about as having a long learning curve. While his regression from Yr 1 is disappointing, it's mostly because Yr 1 was above expectations. He's trying to become a pocket passer now and that will take time - if it ever happens. I suspect if they make the playoffs (and I think Cleveland will, plus either Jax or Ten), he'll run more and look better. We'll see.

On Mario, he was considered a physical specimen, but people felt like he didn't have a fantastic career because he was still learning the little things about playing DE. So it should also not be particularly surprising that he's still not there. DE's should learn faster than QBs, so that's disappointing, but its way too early to call either of these guys a bust.

[Major]

On Mario, he was considered a physical specimen, but people felt like he didn't have a fantastic career because he was still learning the little things about playing DE.

I meant fantastic college career - he was more of a combine guy than a "look how great he was at NCState" guy.

[gucci888]

none of the top 3 picks from that draft were worthy of being top 3.

Judging from this season. Let's not forget that both Bush and VY had pretty good rookie seasons so whether they were worthy isn't really in doubt IMO. I think if you go back and re-draft, they still would have gone in the Top 3.

Like Major posted, Mario was a combine guy. His 14 Sacks in his final college season was impressive, but many of them came in a select number of games and there were questions about his motor. We definitely now see what they were talking about. Mario will have a good game/play and then completely disappear. Definitely not what I want to see from our #1 overall.

[Ottomaton]

I meant fantastic college career - he was more of a combine guy than a "look how great he was at NCState" guy.

In terms of numbers Mario Williams at NC State = Julius Peppers at North Carolina. Statistically he was very productive in college. People talk about the physical because in that respect Williams is freakish, while in terms of production he was "only" exceptional.

[The Cat]

As a running back, Reggie Bush is a helluva slot receiver. As a quarterback, Vince Young is a helluva running back.

What's even more amazing is that in this season, neither of those is even true. Bush's 5.5 yards per reception is pathetic... and Vince's 217 rushing yards on 3.9 yards per carry is even worse.

Like everyone else, I'm not saying Mario has lit up the scoreboard. However, I'm tired of all the simpletons pointing to that decision every time anything goes wrong with this franchise. All three players have been mediocre at best.

[Major]

In terms of numbers Mario Williams at NC State = Julius Peppers at North Carolina. Statistically he was very productive in college. People talk about the physical because in that respect Williams is freakish, while in terms of production he was "only" exceptional.

Yes, but much of that was during a 4 game period. Obviously, it all totals out, but before the combine, no one thought of Mario Williams in the same context as Julius Peppers. Mario Williams got his 14 sacks or whatever as a regular member of the line. Peppers got his despite being the focus of every defense, double-teamed all the time, etc.

Williams went from good player to top-3 pick during the combine - that's all I was referencing. It wasn't his college season that made people go "wow".

[MadMax]

Yes, but much of that was during a 4 game period. Obviously, it all totals out, but before the combine, no one thought of Mario Williams in the same context as Julius Peppers. Mario Williams got his 14 sacks or whatever as a regular member of the line. Peppers got his despite being the focus of every defense, double-teamed all the time, etc.

Williams went from good player to top-3 pick during the combine - that's all I was referencing. It wasn't his college season that made people go "wow".

This is certainly not an important test...but it was interesting to me that I had never heard of Mario Williams before the combines. Not at all. It was the first time I could remember where a guy went #1, and I hadn't heard of him...and that was more remarkable to me because it was my team picking #1, so I was following it more closely than I might otherwise.

Peppers on the other hand was someone that I knew about a long time before the draft. I knew of him from his play on the field.

Again...none of that means anything really signficant...but it certainly affected my perception as we headed towards draft day.

[Ric]

i agree with every single word of your post, save this:
While his regression from Yr 1 is disappointing, it's mostly because Yr 1 was above expectations.
therein lies the big ol' fallacy that is mister vince young, esq. he's "regressed"? he was terrible last year! he finished 29th in YPA; 30th in QB rating; 32nd in COM%; and threw more INTs (13) than TDs (12). that is a BAD qb, i don't care how many ways you try and spin it with "he just wins" mumbo jumbo bull**** (you = people at large, not you, specifically, major).

it's not like he was a middle-of-the pack-QB in '06; he was among the worse, statistically-speaking. so he's pretty much been on par, passing-wise. he's obviously regressed as a runner, but duh. why would any team give him lanes when they know he can't complete a pass over 4 yards to save his life?

[Ottomaton]

Yes, but much of that was during a 4 game period. Obviously, it all totals out, but before the combine, no one thought of Mario Williams in the same context as Julius Peppers. Mario Williams got his 14 sacks or whatever as a regular member of the line. Peppers got his despite being the focus of every defense, double-teamed all the time, etc.

Williams went from good player to top-3 pick during the combine - that's all I was referencing. It wasn't his college season that made people go "wow".

Most of his sacks came in 7 games not 4, but 14.5 sacks in 7 games don't make you go “wow”? And other teams did game plan around Mario. You can find plenty of quotes by teammates to that effect.

The difference was the one that Max noted. North Carolina = nationally ranked with Peppers, NC State = 7-5 with Williams. I don't think you can blame the faults of the team as a whole on Williams.

[Ric]

Peppers got his despite being the focus of every defense, double-teamed all the time, etc.
peppers' DL-mate (sims) was selected 6th overall n the same draft as peppers.

[DonkeyMagic]

So I don't see how VY is having a bad season. He may be in slump lately but the guy can still win games

i dont know if an entire season, in week 12, can count as a "slump"

[Rocket River]

But Vince Young looks a whole lot like Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens right about now. I guess it's pretty obvious Albert Haynesworth is the most important player on the Titans. No Haynesworth, no run defense, no victory.

I'm not defending the Mario Williams pick.... but i am just hating on vince . . again

Rocket River
just wanted to complete the sentence

[msn]

Vince just wins.

The Tennessee defense came down to earth this Sunday. Oh, and the Titans got their asses handed to them at home by a suprising Jacksonville squad.

So, perhaps the Tennessee defense just wins?

[DonkeyMagic]

Vince just wins.

The Tennessee defense came down to earth this Sunday. Oh, and the Titans got their asses handed to them at home by a suprising Jacksonville squad.

So, perhaps the Tennessee defense just wins?

it isnt their prolific high powered offense

[weslinder]

The Tennessee defense came down to earth this Sunday. Oh, and the Titans got their asses handed to them at home by a suprising Jacksonville squad.

Nobody should have been surprised about Jacksonville. They control the line of scrimmage like no one else. When they get their quarterback back, they'll go right back to being a top 5 team.

[Major]

it's not like he was a middle-of-the pack-QB in '06; he was among the worse, statistically-speaking. so he's pretty much been on par, passing-wise. he's obviously regressed as a runner, but duh. why would any team give him lanes when they know he can't complete a pass over 4 yards to save his life?

But the problem here is that the running is by choice. He said it before the season and multiple times this season that he wants to be a "Quarterback", not a "running quarterback". That's fine in the long-run, but if you watch his games this year, it's clear he's choosing not to run unless he absolutely has to. There were several times in the game a week ago (not Jax, but the previous one), where he had 15 yards of clear space in front of him and he launched 30 yard incomplete (or intercepted) passes. It's not necessarily a bad thing in the long-run, but for this year, it's made him a much worse player. The lanes thing would make sense except for the fact that everyone knew he could run towards the end of last year and he still managed to run on teams just fine. What he doesn't seem to recognize is that his throwing is predicated on his threat as a runner.

On the throwing side, he has regressed, though some of it is his receivers. Watching him, his accuracy has declined a bit this year. He and his receivers are also constantly on the wrong page. They'll drop a lot of balls, and then at least 4 or 5 times a game, they'll run a completely different direction from where Vince throws. Whether Vince is throwing to the wrong place or the receivers are running the wrong routes, who knows. But it's by far the worst receiving group in the entire league.

I won't get into the whole leadership argument again, but he is a worse QB this year for the simple reason that when he's given opportunities late in games to make big plays, he's not doing it - whether running or passing. Last year, he might struggle through most of the game, but if the game was close at the end, he made almost every necessary play. This year - granted, he hasn't had to very much since they've won a lot without him - he hasn't done that when given the chance.

[Major]

The difference was the one that Max noted. North Carolina = nationally ranked with Peppers, NC State = 7-5 with Williams. I don't think you can blame the faults of the team as a whole on Williams.

UNC in Peppers' last year was 7-5 and unranked also.

[Major]

peppers' DL-mate (sims) was selected 6th overall n the same draft as peppers.

Wasn't all of NCState's D-Line w/ Mario Williams drafted?

UNC came and played at UT his last year in college (and OU). He was the focus of the game the entire week before - he was their "star" on defense. If I remember right, he was actually held to 0 tackles, 0 sacks, etc, but I'm not positive. But regardless of anyone else on the team, Julius Peppers from day #1 that season was the guy people talked about focusing on. He was the player UT focused on double teaming, etc.

[pgabriel]

i agree with every single word of your post, save this:

therein lies the big ol' fallacy that is mister vince young, esq. he's "regressed"? he was terrible last year! he finished 29th in YPA; 30th in QB rating; 32nd in COM%; and threw more INTs (13) than TDs (12). that is a BAD qb, i don't care how many ways you try and spin it with "he just wins" mumbo jumbo bull**** (you = people at large, not you, specifically, major).



he was a rookie, how did david carr do his rookie year?

[Ric]

Wasn't all of NCState's D-Line w/ Mario Williams drafted?
just one; a LB was also taken in round 1.

UNC came and played at UT his last year in college (and OU). He was the focus of the game the entire week before - he was their "star" on defense.... But regardless of anyone else on the team, Julius Peppers from day #1 that season was the guy people talked about focusing on. He was the player UT focused on double teaming, etc.
is your point that mario williams wasn't accorded the same respect?

major, not to be terribly snarky, but how many players can you name that teams are focusing on from week to week that aren't either your alma mater or in close proximity to your home?

for instance, i doubt you'd ever heard of juice williams prior to saturday, but that doesn't mean OSU wasn't focused on him all week prior.

[Ric]

so much wrong with this, i couldn't decide on just one response...
he was a rookie, how did david carr do his rookie year?
so you admit he had a bad season last year?

he was a rookie, how did david carr do his rookie year?
so what's his excuse this year?

he was a rookie, how did david carr do his rookie year?
what does david carr have to do with this?

he was a rookie, how did david carr do his rookie year?
are you actually comparing him to david carr?

[VesceySux]

Judging from this season. Let's not forget that both Bush and VY had pretty good rookie seasons so whether they were worthy isn't really in doubt IMO. I think if you go back and re-draft, they still would have gone in the Top 3.

Maybe Vince. Doubtful on Mario and Bush.

I'm confused as to why you think Bush had a good rookie season. Compared to the other 2006 RB rookies, Bush was mediocre to below average at best. If you look at the 2006 stats of rookie running backs (and to be fair, ONLY those with 99+ rushing attempts, of which there are a total of 9), here is Bush's rankings:

Yds: 7th out of 9
Avg: 9th out of 9
Yds/G: 8th out of 9
TDs: T4th out of 9
Long: 9th out of 9
Fumbles: T1st out of 9 (higher is worse)

And don't forget about the heinous 11 ATT, -5 YD game he put up against Tampa Bay last year...

Project or not, all three top picks have sucked so far.

[Major]

is your point that mario williams wasn't accorded the same respect?


My point is that Julius Peppers, from Day #1 of the 2001 season, was nationally recognized as one of the best players in college football and widely known to be a top NFL talent. Mario Williams, was not. Even during the season, he was recognized as a really good player - a top 10 or 15 type pick. He really blew up on the national scene when he wowed people at the combine.


major, not to be terribly snarky, but how many players can you name that teams are focusing on from week to week that aren't either your alma mater or in close proximity to your home?

for instance, i doubt you'd ever heard of juice williams prior to saturday, but that doesn't mean OSU wasn't focused on him all week prior.

As someone who prefers college football to the pros, I know most of the bigtime national players. Of course I'd heard of Juice Williams - but not in any conversation about the best players in the game - and he still isn't. All I really knew was that he was a dual-threat QB of Illinois. Now, all I know is that he's a dual-threat QB of Illinois that had a great game and beat Ohio State. That's a perfect example. If he suddenly blows up at the combine and becomes a top pick, he'll have followed a similar path to Mario Williams.

[pgabriel]

so much wrong with this, i couldn't decide on just one response...

so you admit he had a bad season last year?

where did i admit that


so what's his excuse this year?

he's having a bad season, nothing wrong with that, they're still in front of the texans, the pathetic issue with these posts is this is all "die hard" texan fans have to be happy about,

and the titans are still better


what does david carr have to do with this?

just dubious how you choose to defend him and lambast vince when one is in his sixth year and one is not even through his second and his team is on their way to the playoffs

see above, its pathetic

but i guess your season is made as a texans fan because you have nothing else to root for

have fun, vince sucks

are you actually comparing him to david carr?

wouldn't want to compare him to someone's who's career is basically over

[gunn]

just one; a LB was also taken in round 1.

You're being disingenuous. Lawson played DE.

[Major]

just one; a LB was also taken in round 1.


Actually, DE Manny Lawson was picked at #22, DT John McCargo was picked at #26. So that's 3 out of 4 members of the D-Line in the first round. I believe the 4th was a junior and came out this past year and was drafted in the 3rd round - but I'm not positive.

[Mattj]

vince has played a season and a haf worth of games. there is hardly any qb drafted in the last three seasons performing well outside of jay cutler. these threads back and forth are ridiculous. vince has a good game, the supporters come out, he has a bad game, now even radio hosts come out.

i've listened to mattj since he was cougar matt, don't let him fool you, he doesn't want to see vince succeed, part of his cougar envy. everyone relax.

You obviously don't listen much....I went Beano Cook on Vince when he was a senior at Madison, and predicted he'd win multiple Heismans at Texas. Vince was the best high school player I have ever seen. I think you should sympathize with me in that I have to be objective about Vince considering the jaded rhetoric I have to deal with from my co-host Mon-Fri on the topic from 2-6pm.

[ipaman]

who else was in that draft...

1 Houston Texans Mario Williams Defensive end North Carolina State
2 New Orleans Saints Reggie Bush Running back Southern California
3 Tennessee Titans Vince Young Quarterback Texas
4 New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Offensive tackle Virginia
5 Green Bay Packers A. J. Hawk Linebacker Ohio State
6 San Francisco 49ers Vernon Davis Tight end Maryland
7 Oakland Raiders Michael Huff Safety Texas
8 Buffalo Bills Donte Whitner Safety Ohio State
9 Detroit Lions Ernie Sims Linebacker Florida State
10 Arizona Cardinals Matt Leinart Quarterback Southern California


seriously that has to be one of the worst drafts in history. the top 3 players are average/belowavg at best in there positions so far into their careers. Lienart so far is a bust. Hawk has dissapointed in GreenBay. Really a bunch of marginal players.

If you get a do-over, of those 10 who do you take?

I say no-one and trade down :D but there are no do-overs and when looking at that list wario doesn't look so bad.

[ipaman]

fyi...

addai, cromartie, maroney were all selected later in that first round.

[leroy420]

You obviously don't listen much....I went Beano Cook on Vince when he was a senior at Madison, and predicted he'd win multiple Heismans at Texas. Vince was the best high school player I have ever seen. I think you should sympathize with me in that I have to be objective about Vince considering the jaded rhetoric I have to deal with from my co-host Mon-Fri on the topic from 2-6pm.

A thinly disguised advertisement. :D

[pgabriel]

You obviously don't listen much....I went Beano Cook on Vince when he was a senior at Madison, and predicted he'd win multiple Heismans at Texas. Vince was the best high school player I have ever seen. I think you should sympathize with me in that I have to be objective about Vince considering the jaded rhetoric I have to deal with from my co-host Mon-Fri on the topic from 2-6pm.

you've never started a vince thread till he has a bad game in the houston market. i know you were one of the ones on your station who didn't want the texans to draft him.

most people aren't objective about vince unfortunately, that's why i doubt the thread was started out of objectiveness. but that's just my opinion. the guy is in his second year in the nfl and people are acting like he's supposed to be joe montana

[The Real Shady]

who else was in that draft...

1 Houston Texans Mario Williams Defensive end North Carolina State
2 New Orleans Saints Reggie Bush Running back Southern California
3 Tennessee Titans Vince Young Quarterback Texas
4 New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Offensive tackle Virginia
5 Green Bay Packers A. J. Hawk Linebacker Ohio State
6 San Francisco 49ers Vernon Davis Tight end Maryland
7 Oakland Raiders Michael Huff Safety Texas
8 Buffalo Bills Donte Whitner Safety Ohio State
9 Detroit Lions Ernie Sims Linebacker Florida State
10 Arizona Cardinals Matt Leinart Quarterback Southern California


seriously that has to be one of the worst drafts in history. the top 3 players are average/belowavg at best in there positions so far into their careers. Lienart so far is a bust. Hawk has dissapointed in GreenBay. Really a bunch of marginal players.

If you get a do-over, of those 10 who do you take?

I say no-one and trade down :D but there are no do-overs and when looking at that list wario doesn't look so bad.

Brick Ferguson.

[Ric]

where did i admit that
when, rather than defending him or his numbers, you reminded us he was a rookie and then made david carr, QB of an expansion franchise, the measuring stick.

he's having a bad season, nothing wrong with that, they're still in front of the texans, the pathetic issue with these posts is this is all "die hard" texan fans have to be happy about,

and the titans are still better
i don't believe anyone has said otherwise, have they? are we even debating the two teams?

just dubious how you choose to defend him and lambast vince when one is in his sixth year and one is not even through his second and his team is on their way to the playoffs
well, let's not print playoff tickets just yet. and if they DON'T make the playoffs. btw, the lack of even of a mediocre passing game will be the reason why.

and i'm not "lambasting" young; merely correctly pointing out that when you slice away the layers and layers of overinflated hype that engulfed his rookie season, it was, by any individual measure, a bad year for a QB.

but i guess your season is made as a texans fan because you have nothing else to root for
why, did they cancel the texans' final 7 games?

wouldn't want to compare him to someone's who's career is basically over
zing! call canton: vince young is better than david carr.

[leroy420]

who else was in that draft...

1 Houston Texans Mario Williams Defensive end North Carolina State
2 New Orleans Saints Reggie Bush Running back Southern California
3 Tennessee Titans Vince Young Quarterback Texas
4 New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Offensive tackle Virginia
5 Green Bay Packers A. J. Hawk Linebacker Ohio State
6 San Francisco 49ers Vernon Davis Tight end Maryland
7 Oakland Raiders Michael Huff Safety Texas
8 Buffalo Bills Donte Whitner Safety Ohio State
9 Detroit Lions Ernie Sims Linebacker Florida State
10 Arizona Cardinals Matt Leinart Quarterback Southern California


seriously that has to be one of the worst drafts in history. the top 3 players are average/belowavg at best in there positions so far into their careers. Lienart so far is a bust. Hawk has dissapointed in GreenBay. Really a bunch of marginal players.

If you get a do-over, of those 10 who do you take?

I say no-one and trade down :D but there are no do-overs and when looking at that list wario doesn't look so bad.

Ernie Simms has actually been very good for the Lions and probably the best out of the top 10 drafted that year.

[Ric]

the guy is in his second year in the nfl and people are acting like he's supposed to be joe montana
wow. just wow.

re: manny lawson, he wasn't a LB in college? maybe not. doesn't change the fact peppers had a really good DT next him.

[pgabriel]

wow. just wow.




oh ric you just couldn't wait till they lost. have fun your pathetic victiory. hey, the team I love sucks but at least vince does to. its funny, really

[gucci888]

Actually, DE Manny Lawson was picked at #22, DT John McCargo was picked at #26. So that's 3 out of 4 members of the D-Line in the first round. I believe the 4th was a junior and came out this past year and was drafted in the 3rd round - but I'm not positive.

Ya...DeMarcus Tyler was drafted in the 3rd last summer.

[ipaman]

Ernie Simms has actually been very good for the Lions and probably the best out of the top 10 drafted that year.

and that's exacly my point. pretty weak top 10 so far IMHO

[Ric]

seriously that has to be one of the worst drafts in history. the top 3 players are average/belowavg at best in there positions so far into their careers. Lienart so far is a bust. Hawk has dissapointed in GreenBay. Really a bunch of marginal players.
i think it points to how good/advanced the league is these days. look back at when, say, earl campbell came into the league. he was instantly, 1 second after being drafted, one of the 10 or 15 best players in football.

that doesn't happen these days. the league is so big and fast and skilled, that even a guy like bush, who was a man among boys on saturdays, struggles because he's no longer the most gifted athlete on the field. not by a long shot.

the best, most successful rookies, by and large - not always - come into favorable/winning situations. look at AP - great, great back. but he also happened to be selected by a team that's spent a few years really improving their OL. so he can step in and make a difference. would he be having the same success with, say, the texans? who have struggled in run blocking this year?...

[Desert_Rocket]

he was a rookie, how did david carr do his rookie year?

well, if you are using david carr to compare vince to, then i guess you have lowered your expectations a bit.

Trent Dilfer still got insulted in this thread.

[Ric]

oh ric you just couldn't wait till they lost. have fun your pathetic victiory. hey, the team I love sucks but at least vince does to. its funny, really
what?... i've been blowing holes in the hype surrounding vince young for about a year now, pgabriel. whereas your oh-so-convienient, "it's not like he's joe montana" rhetoric is about 15 seconds old.

wasn't baby vince supposed to redefine the position, win multiple super bowls, make the texans rue the day they passed on him, just win games, etc. etc.?

again, you've been reduced to "look! no, no not here, there!" tactics - what do the texans sucking have to do with baby vince? but we're the ones in drowning our sorrows in someone else's misfortune, huh....?

[Ottomaton]

oh ric you just couldn't wait till they lost. have fun your pathetic victiory. hey, the team I love sucks but at least vince does to. its funny, really

I can't speak for Ric, but I know that I personally would never, or very rarely speak about Vince if it weren't for his rabid legions of supplicants who view anything but worshipful adoration as an insult to Young's character.

Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler are all on the same level in my book. All three second year quarterbacks with much to prove. All three have a chance to be good NFL QBs. All three are far from finished products. But I never speak ill of Cutler or Leinart, and most people wouldn't view it as a personal insult if I say that Jay Cutler is up and down often plays like a rookie, or if I say that he is not the reason for whatever success the Broncos have had.

But say the same of Vince??? People scream bloody murder.

[pgabriel]

wasn't baby vince supposed to redefine the position, win multiple super bowls, make the texans rue the day they passed on him, just win games, etc. etc.?

again, you've been reduced to "look! no, no not here, there!" tactics - what do the texans sucking have to do with baby vince? but we're the ones in drowning our sorrows in someone else's misfortune, huh....?

no, I have been reduced to his team is still 6-3 so I don't know how the "vince wins games" argument is disproven. he didn't play well, they lost, it kind of proves the point.

as for your other proclamations, again, its halfway through year two, so lets just wait and see how the career pans out. enjoy this rough patch right now, which you're clearly doing.

[pgabriel]

But say the same of Vince??? People scream bloody murder.

by most people you mean tinman? you guys shouldn't let that guy get under your skin that much

[MR. MEOWGI]

no, I have been reduced to his team is still 6-3 so I don't know how the "vince wins games" argument is disproven. he didn't play well, they lost, it kind of proves the point.

as for your other proclamations, again, its halfway through year two, so lets just wait and see how the career pans out. enjoy this rough patch right now, which you're clearly doing.


The defense didn't play well for once. Vince played about the same (worst starting qb in the NFL).

Nothing brings me more enjoyment than Vince and The Titans sucking. That's how a real Houston fan always feels.

[Icehouse]

i agree with every single word of your post, save this:

therein lies the big ol' fallacy that is mister vince young, esq. he's "regressed"? he was terrible last year! he finished 29th in YPA; 30th in QB rating; 32nd in COM%; and threw more INTs (13) than TDs (12). that is a BAD qb, i don't care how many ways you try and spin it with "he just wins" mumbo jumbo bull**** (you = people at large, not you, specifically, major).

it's not like he was a middle-of-the pack-QB in '06; he was among the worse, statistically-speaking. so he's pretty much been on par, passing-wise. he's obviously regressed as a runner, but duh. why would any team give him lanes when they know he can't complete a pass over 4 yards to save his life?

Vince did not post great numbers last year but prior to him taking snaps the exact same team was sucking, and post Vince they became competitive. This is a fact. Numbers don't always tell the whole story. Stop trying to dismiss the impact that he had last season. The Titans looked like two completely different teams pre/post Vince.

[Ric]

enjoy this rough patch right now, which you're clearly doing.
is a year and a half really consdiered a patch? i'd prefer "career so far."

[pgabriel]

is a year and a half really consdiered a patch? i'd prefer "career so far."

rookie of the year

[Ottomaton]

by most people you mean tinman? you guys shouldn't let that guy get under your skin that much

Nope. I mean you, who scream at Ric for speaking about Vince with anything but abject adoration. I mean the 1,000,000 UT fans that suffered coronary embolisms and have spent 18 months trashing the Texans for the unmentionable crime of not choosing the savior of all mankind. I speak of the legions that convince themselves that Vince Young's rookie season was enough to send him to Canton despite a 66.7 passer rating because of some magic, unquantifiable winning voodoo power that enables him to be the sole cause of victories despite having a horrible day.

In general, I view tinman like I view Kam - the town jester or the class clown. I never take anything he writes seriously or at face value and as such he will never upset me. He is comic relief (and very good at being comic relief).

Since we have the search function back, I could go look up the posts from millions of militant fans. For a couple of seconds I thought about doing that, but changed my mind. It would be like feeling compelled to provide evidence if I had said the sun rises in the east; the disconnect with reality on the subject of Vince Young should be apparent to all. The same effect was true to a lesser degree for the other greatest player of all time available in that draft - Reggie Bush. But I guess like Heaven’s Gate members who killed themselves to visit the mothership, it must be difficult to see your own collective insanity from the inside.

[macalu]

most people aren't objective about vince unfortunately, that's why i doubt the thread was started out of objectiveness. but that's just my opinion. the guy is in his second year in the nfl and people are acting like he's supposed to be joe montana
funny, that's what the vince supporters claim him to be. or to put it more accurately, the micheal jordan of the nfl.

and true, if you're a texan fan or a vince fan, it's difficult to be objective. but there's no denying, Young and Williams have sucked for their respective teams.

[pgabriel]

Nope. I mean you, who scream at Ric for speaking about Vince with anything but abject adoration.
yeah, ric is quite the objective one, espcially when he jumped on me for critcizing d-line play a week late thinking i started it after the titan game, always calling him babby vince, and never apologizing to me about the reason I started that thread. yeah, ric is truly objective and us vince fans are the problem.

stick to the d&d please.


Since we have the search function back, I could go look up those posts.


ooooh, i'm shaking in my lite blue boots :rolleyes:

For a couple of seconds I thought about doing that, but changed my mind. It would be like feeling compelled to provide evidence if I had said the sun rises in the east; the disconnect with reality on the subject of Vince Young should be apparent to all. But I guess like Heaven’s Gate members who killed themselves to visit the mothership, it must be difficult to see from the inside.


thanks for being so above it all, just like in the d&d, the only thing you've proven is that you think you're better than everyone else

[Ric]

Vince did not post great numbers last year but prior to him taking snaps the exact same team was sucking, and post Vince they became competitive. This is a fact.
coincidences are not facts. the single biggest change over the second half of last season is the development of tennessee's O and D lines, which have grown into powerhouses and are now the team's foundation.

[msn]

but there's no denying, Young and Williams have sucked for their respective teams.
Sure there's "denying". Both are certainly arguable. The only thing "there's no denying" about is that that is your opinion.

[MR. MEOWGI]

coincidences are not facts. the single biggest change over the second half of last season is the development of tennessee's O and D lines, which have grown into powerhouses and are now the team's foundation.

Thanks to KY's leadership of course.

[Icehouse]

what?... i've been blowing holes in the hype surrounding vince young for about a year now, pgabriel. whereas your oh-so-convienient, "it's not like he's joe montana" rhetoric is about 15 seconds old.

What holes have you blown? Vince made the pro-bowl last season and won rookie of the year. His team went from sucking without him to being competitive and winning games with him. He was clearly the best rookie last season. Most considered him to be a project when he went pro and he had a pretty successful rookie campaign (most rookie QB’s don’t even start). With all that being said he has regressed this season.

wasn't baby vince supposed to redefine the position, win multiple super bowls, make the texans rue the day they passed on him, just win games, etc. etc.?

I don’t recall many saying VY would redefine the position (most said he couldn’t throw and predicted him to fail). Who said he would win multiple super bowls? As far as making the Texans regret drafting him, I would say he has already done that. He beat us twice (division opponent), including one game winning play in Houston. When the Titans play here a good majority of the city and folks attending the game are rooting for them mainly because of Vince. We dropped the QB that we kept over Vince one year later, and possibly overpaid to get another project QB. Yes, if the team could do it all again my money goes on them picking VY.

again, you've been reduced to "look! no, no not here, there!" tactics - what do the texans sucking have to do with baby vince? but we're the ones in drowning our sorrows in someone else's misfortune, huh....?

Vince is playing poorly this season. His production is no worse than Bush or Mario and I would still take him #1 for Houston based on the situation that the team was in last season.

[msn]

his team is still 6-3 so I don't know how the "vince wins games" argument is disproven. he didn't play well, they lost, it kind of proves the point.
WOW!! Swing and a miss!! He hasn't played well ALL YEAR.

Let me correct your wildly inaccurate statement:

"The defense didn't play well; they lost. It kind of proves the point."

As far as the "vince wins games" argument being disproven: Teams win games. That is the beginning and the end of the discussion. Everything else is mindless drivel.

as for your other proclamations, again, its halfway through year two, so lets just wait and see how the career pans out.
...unless we're discussing Mario Williams. Ah, how convenient it must be to speak from both sides of the mouth.

[MR. MEOWGI]

His production is no worse than Bush or Mario and I would still take him #1 for Houston based on the situation that the team was in last season.

Yeah, a crappy qb that can't pass. That's exactly what the Texans need (to be a winless team and get the #1 pick again).

[Icehouse]

coincidences are not facts. the single biggest change over the second half of last season is the development of tennessee's O and D lines, which have grown into powerhouses and are now the team's foundation.

There is no statistical data to support those claims either. The Titans coaches don't say we turned the season because of our line play. Teammates last season did not say we started playing better because our line play improved. They all said we started playing better once we got a gamebreaker at the QB position with a penchant for making big plays (plays that he is not making this season). Again, deny all you want...but pre Vince the exact same teammates were losing.

[pgabriel]

WOW!! Swing and a miss!! He hasn't played well ALL YEAR.

okay, 5-3, his record is terrible

Let me correct your wildly inaccurate statement:

"The defense didn't play well; they lost. It kind of proves the point."

Again, its a miracle that defense turned around as soon as he became the starter

As far as the "vince wins games" argument being disproven: Teams win games. That is the beginning and the end of the discussion. Everything else is mindless drivel.

disproven by what


...unless we're discussing Mario Williams. Ah, how convenient it must be to speak from both sides of the mouth.


since the search function is back on, please show me where i declared mario a bust.

i accept your apology in advance thx

[Ottomaton]

yeah, ric is quite the objective one, espcially when he jumped on me for critcizing d-line play a week late thinking i started it after the titan game, always calling him babby vince, and never apologizing to me about the reason I started that thread. yeah, ric is truly objective and us vince fans are the problem.



Again, the root of the problem occured 18 months ago when the Texans passed on Vince Young. All the reactions by Ric and others are just that - reactions.



stick to the d&d please.

ooooh, i'm shaking in my lite blue boots :rolleyes:


Nice. Way to actually return with a rational response. Perhaps you should stick to the maelstrom of name callling that is the GARM.


thanks for being so above it all, just like in the d&d, the only thing you've proven is that you think you're better than everyone else

Actually, I just think I am outside the Cult of Vince. Some of those Heaven's Gate people were certanly smarter than me. I think a couple of them were very accomplished aerospace engineers or worked at JPL or something. But they had the misfortune of being suckered in by the cult. I'm not better than you. I just happened to end up on the outside in the objective world.

[updawg]

That's exactly what the Texans need (to be a winless team and get the #1 pick again).
theres always next year.

[msn]

rookie of the year
Kinda like Livan Hernandez's WS MVP. He was the emotional selection, but not the correct selection. Moises Alou was the real 1997 WS MVP; Maurice Jones-Drew was easily the proper 2006 OROY. Their actual, measurable contribution to their team's offense really isn't close.

[macalu]

What holes have you blown? Vince made the pro-bowl last season and won rookie of the year. His team went from sucking without him to being competitive and winning games with him. He was clearly the best rookie last season. Most considered him to be a project when he went pro and he had a pretty successful rookie campaign (most rookie QB’s don’t even start). With all that being said he has regressed this season.



I don’t recall many saying VY would redefine the position (most said he couldn’t throw and predicted him to fail). Who said he would win multiple super bowls? As far as making the Texans regret drafting him, I would say he has already done that. He beat us twice (division opponent), including one game winning play in Houston. When the Titans play here a good majority of the city and folks attending the game are rooting for them mainly because of Vince. We dropped the QB that we kept over Vince one year later, and possibly overpaid to get another project QB. Yes, if the team could do it all again my money goes on them picking VY.



Vince is playing poorly this season. His production is no worse than Bush or Mario and I would still take him #1 for Houston based on the situation that the team was in last season.
you must have every UT fan on this board on your ignore list.

[Icehouse]

Yeah, a crappy qb that can't pass. That's exactly what the Texans need (to be a winless team and get the #1 pick again).

A crappy QB that can't pass yet still managed to beat us on our home turf with his legs..... :confused:

Vince really needs to improve on his passing to be more than just a running QB. But you can't deny the impact he had on the team last season. Or actually deny all you want. I kinda put more weight in the opinions of his coaches and teammates.

It's also funny that the same QB who can't pass went to a team just as bad as ours when drafted, that was just as bad as ours before he hit the line-up...and they somehow have been above the Texans ever since...with the only major change being him (especially last season). All coincidence though......

[pgabriel]

Again, the root of the problem occured 18 months ago when the Texans passed on Vince Young. All the reactions by Ric and others are just that - reactions.

in other words, "i agree with ric's argument, so he must be right, because i'm always right"

thanks for proving my point, as if ric has never ever ever ever been irrational in his defense of mario, its all our faults




Nice. Way to actually return with a rational response. Perhaps you should stick to the maelstrom of name callling that is the GARM.

i never called you a name, you're the one who acts like i should be thanking god you didn't pull the "search function" out on me.



Actually, I just think I am outside the Cult of Vince. Some of those Heaven's Gate people were certanly smarter than me. I think a couple of them were very accomplished aerospace engineers or worked at JPL or something. But they had the misfortune of being suckered in by the cult. I'm not better than you. I just happened to end up on the outside in the objective world.


so now we're members of the cult. again, thanks for being so above it all

[CaseyH]

Everyone knew VY was gonna have a real hard time this year since the offense actually got worse personel over the offseason.

To bad they will still kick our a$$. :mad:

[pgabriel]

Their actual, measurable contribution to their team's offense really isn't close.


i know, you and ric know more than all the sportswriters

[Ric]

yeah, ric is quite the objective one, espcially when he jumped on me for critcizing d-line play a week late thinking i started it after the titan game, always calling him babby vince, and never apologizing to me about the reason I started that thread. yeah, ric is truly objective and us vince fans are the problem.
derail. derail. derail. that and insults are the only weapons you have.

and for the record, i didn't apologize because i had no reason to apologize -- even after you had the chance to call me out and then be done with it (long after i admitted my mistake, if you'll recall)... you STILL engaged me on my point.

meaning you obviously still felt the same way... i was just a week late in responding. so what did i have to be sorry about? for (coughcoughcorrectlycoughcough) stating you didn't watch the game? psheesh.....

[Major]

It's also funny that the same QB who can't pass went to a team just as bad as ours when drafted, that was just as bad as ours before he hit the line-up...and they somehow have been above the Texans ever since...with the only major change being him (especially last season). All coincidence though......

This is the funniest part of the argument. Certainly this year is a bit different, but to argue that Vince wasn't a franchise-changing player last year, you have to ignore the actual improvement on the field by the team, all of the opinions of his teammates and coaches, ignore all the history he has winning games without necessarily having "wow" statistics, etc and just attribute it all to blind luck. That the day that Vince took over, everything else happened to click into place perfectly. It's the most absurd thing on the planet, yet that's the argument that people tried to make all last year.

[Icehouse]

you must have every UT fan on this board on your ignore list.

Forgive me...I don't recall many scouts, coaches, other players, etc saying those kind of things about Vince. I don't really put much weight into what UT homers say, the same way I don't put much weight into when Rockets fans say Yao will be better than Hakeem, Scola will win rookie of the year, etc....

Vince is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. But it’s silly to me to say he didn’t have a major impact last season when the team was completely different with and without him, with everything else staying the same. Yes, he really needs to work on his passing, but considering that most QB’s don’t even make any type of impact this early in their careers (look at the other young QB’s in the league) and what was expected of him when drafted (project) I would say he is ahead of the curve…especially since his team went from the bottom with us to WINNING (not all on him but let’s not deny his impact).

Considering that we dropped the QB we chose to keep over him and heavily paid for another I don’t see how anyone can say it wasn’t a mistake to draft him, from a football side and definitely a business one.

[pgabriel]

derail. derail. derail. that and insults are the only weapons you have.

um, i'm responding to someone using that thread as an example of a lack of your objectivity, and it clearly was

and for the record, i didn't apologize because i had no reason to apologize -- even after you had the chance to call me out and then be done with it (long after i admitted my mistake, if you'll recall)... you STILL engaged me on my point.

further proving point (a) just above this quote

meaning you obviously still felt the same way... i was just a week late in responding. so what did i have to be sorry about? for (coughcoughcorrectlycoughcough) stating you didn't watch the game? psheesh.....


how silly some are for being so proud to have more closely watched the game the others. you're right, you probably watched it twice, which we be more times than me.

if it comforts you ric, i didn't watch the texans game this past sunday, so you can be finally right

[MadMax]

i, for one, am glad we're discussing this again. :D

i think VY will be a good QB. i thought it before. i think it now. i did not think he would play much at all in his rookie year. i never envisioned him being even as good as he was in his rookie year.

[msn]

okay, 5-3, his record is terrible
Can't believe you still don't get it. Vince Young doesn't have a record. The Titans' record is 5-3. Vince has done very little to make that 5 number a '5'.

Again, its a miracle that defense turned around as soon as he became the starter
Actually, I was referring to 2007. The defense was pretty consistent throughout last year, save two early blowouts to Dallas and San Diego (nothing to be ashamed of).

disproven by what
Teams. Win. Games. It's really not that hard.

since the search function is back on, please show me where i declared mario a bust.
No, thanks. If you never said that, cool. There's been so much back-and-forth on this I'm sure I've mixed your commentary up with others. My bad.

i accept your apology in advance thx
Glad to oblige you. Oh, and teams win games, not QBs who can't throw. :p

[pgabriel]

i, for one, am glad we're discussing this again. :D

i think VY will be a good QB. i thought it before. i think it now. i did not think he would play much at all in his rookie year. i never envisioned him being even as good as he was in his rookie year.

no, since you wanted him on this team, you thought he would redefine the position by now.

[msn]

But it’s silly to me to say he didn’t have a major impact last season when the team was completely different with and without him, with everything else staying the same.
For the record, Ice, I agree with this statement. I'm not in the camp that goes so far as to say intangibles and leadership are hogwash. They just get overplayed is all. Vince Young had what to me was an undeniable impact on his team last year. I don't think he was OROY material, but I agree it'd be foolish to deny his impact--LAST year.

2007, however, has been a different story. He's been largely ineffective.

Yes, he really needs to work on his passing, but considering that most QB’s don’t even make any type of impact this early in their careers (look at the other young QB’s in the league) and what was expected of him when drafted (project) I would say he is ahead of the curve…especially since his team went from the bottom with us to WINNING (not all on him but let’s not deny his impact).
This is all reasonable to me.

Considering that we dropped the QB we chose to keep over him and heavily paid for another I don’t see how anyone can say it wasn’t a mistake to draft him, from a football side and definitely a business one.[/QUOTE]

[msn]

no, since you wanted him on this team, you thought he would redefine the position by now.
Bah. Those blasts are directed at everyone who foolishly compares Vince Young to Michael Jordan, which is just as inane as declaring him a bust. He is neither.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Considering that we dropped the QB we chose to keep over him and heavily paid for another I don’t see how anyone can say it wasn’t a mistake to draft him, from a football side and definitely a business one.[/QUOTE]

Because even Sage is many times better than KY.

[macalu]

i can't argue that vince adds more to the game than just stats. maybe it is b/c he's trying to change his game. but he doesn't look comfortable at all in the pocket. i guess it's like trying to turn T-mac into a point guard. sure he can do it, but he'll never be as effective as he would playing his own game.

[msn]

i know, you and ric know more than all the sportswriters
Just look at the numbers. I understand the sportswriters' position. I just disagree. So sue me.

[msn]

Because even Sage is many times better than KY.[/QUOTE]
That what you quoted was from someone else's post; I just forgot to edit it out. I thought I had deleted that part, as I didn't want to offer any commentary on it specifically.

[updawg]

I learned many years ago to never lose faith in Vince.

[MR. MEOWGI]

I learned many years ago to never lose faith in Vince.

That's soo sweet. Too bad he sucks.

[Icehouse]

This is the funniest part of the argument. Certainly this year is a bit different, but to argue that Vince wasn't a franchise-changing player last year, you have to ignore the actual improvement on the field by the team, all of the opinions of his teammates and coaches, ignore all the history he has winning games without necessarily having "wow" statistics, etc and just attribute it all to blind luck. That the day that Vince took over, everything else happened to click into place perfectly. It's the most absurd thing on the planet, yet that's the argument that people tried to make all last year.

Yeah, those guys are right....all luck. :rolleyes:

Yeah, his stats aren't pretty, but the same team went from winning to losing with him in the line-up (last season). There is no data in favor of or against the impact he had in those wins. However, I will let my common sense rule and conclude that when a team goes from sucking to winning after they make a QB change (most important position on the field), then the QB must be having some kinda impact, especially when his coaches and teammates are saying so (but hey, what do they know). I think Vince is making less big plays this season (i.e. the time he BEAT US) and making more mistakes. He needs work.

And while I admit I don't heavily frequent Texans threads, are the same guys dogging VY also dogging Schuab? I just did a stat comparison and he has thrown 7 int's and lost 3 fumbles (fumbled 7 times actually). He has 1 less turnover than VY and 1 more TD (Vince has 6 total, 4 passing and 2 rushing).

[MR. MEOWGI]

Yeah, those guys are right....all luck. :rolleyes:

Yeah, his stats aren't pretty, but the same team went from winning to losing with him in the line-up (last season). There is no data in favor of or against the impact he had in those wins. However, I will let my common sense rule and conclude that when a team goes from sucking to winning after they make a QB change (most important position on the field), then the QB must be having some kinda impact, especially when his coaches and teammates are saying so (but hey, what do they know). I think Vince is making less big plays this season (i.e. the time he BEAT US) and making more mistakes. He needs work.

And while I admit I don't heavily frequent Texans threads, are the same guys dogging VY also dogging Schuab? I just did a stat comparison and he has thrown 7 int's and lost 3 fumbles (fumbled 7 times actually). He has 1 less turnover than VY and 1 more TD (Vince has 6 total, 4 passing and 2 rushing).

Nobody claims MS to be a great qb. Nobody says the he has "it". Nobody says that a team wont go to a Superbowl without him. Nobody would give up being a Houston fan because they didn't draft him. And like you said, Matt is better. Must suck for you.

[Ottomaton]

in other words, "i agree with ric's argument, so he must be right, because i'm always right"


No. My point is a singular event started all this debate about the relative merits of Vince Young and the Texans. That event was the Texans passing on Vince Young and a fractional number of the posters flipping out. If you would like to blame the Texans, I guess that’s fine too.

But my original post still stands. If people didn't talk about Vince as the greatest ever, abjectly worship him, and declare the Texans cursed for all eternity, I wouldn't be talking about him. I have nothing against him personally. I think eventually he could be quite a good NFL quarterback, and he certainly can be exciting.

The salient point, again for emphasis, was that the reaction by the VYOFs to the Texan decision to pass on him is the basis for the conversation, and the reason we all continue to talk about him. Why does anybody feel the need to start a thread about how passing on Vince wasn’t the end of the world? Because Vince fans claimed it would be, and when some evidence to the contrary arrives, us non-VYOF's feel the need to point out that you were wrong. Sure we Texans fans are embittered. We spent a year and a half listen to people tell us our team is the stupidist of all time and will regret their mistake until the heat death of the universe.

The whole thing is a bit of schadenfreude and as such is a kind of a base pleasure. But I feel that I am returning the same kind of nastiness that has been heaped on my team in kind. If you think otherwise, I understand.

But I guess you are still debating whether there is reason for schadenfreude or not, so that might be irrelevant.


i never called you a name, you're the one who acts like i should be thanking god you didn't pull the "search function" out on me.


Apparently you misunderstand. My point was that using the search function wasn't necessary. That if you polled a bunch of posters on the BBS, most of them would say that there are a lot of posters - a whole bunch more than just tinman - who said that the Texans made one of the worst draft decisions of all time because they passed on Vince Young. I don't think the truth of that point is worth debating or trying to prove. If you disagree and really want to challenge that characterization, we can discuss it.

[Icehouse]

Nobody claims MS to be a great qb. Nobody says the he has "it". Nobody says that a team wont go to a Superbowl without him. Nobody would give up being a Houston fan because they didn't draft him. And like you said, Matt is better. Must suck for you.

So if I visit the Texand threads (especially fron the beginning of the season) I won't find any posts stating that MS will be a great QB someday, that he has "it", etc?

As far as folks giving up on being a "fan" for whatever reason, WHY DO YOU CARE? Why do you care who another man roots for, for whatever reason? Saying I will root for this team because I live in Houston is just as silly as rooting for a team because they have a player you like...assuming you think either is silly. I guess we have lots of dumb international Rocket fans that root for the team because Yao is on it, etc....

[MR. MEOWGI]

So if I visit the Texand threads (especially fron the beginning of the season) I won't find any posts stating that MS will be a great QB someday, that he has "it", etc?

As far as folks giving up on being a "fan" for whatever reason, WHY DO YOU CARE? Why do you care who another man roots for, for whatever reason? Saying I will root for this team because I live in Houston is just as silly as rooting for a team because they have a player you like...assuming you think either is silly. I guess we have lots of dumb international Rocket fans that root for the team because Yao is on it, etc....

I care about Titans fans like I care about Mavs fans. They both completely suck and need to be reminded of the fact constantly.

[pgabriel]

No. My point is a singular event started all this debate about the relative merits of Vince Young and the Texans. That event was the Texans passing on Vince Young and a fractional number of the posters flipping out. If you would like to blame the Texans, I guess that’s fine too.

But my original post still stands. If people didn't talk about Vince as the greatest ever, abjectly worship him, and declare the Texans cursed for all eternity, I wouldn't be talking about him. I have nothing against him personally. I think eventually he could be quite a good NFL quarterback, and he certainly can be exciting.

The salient point, again for emphasis, was that the reaction by the VYOFs to the Texan decision to pass on him is the basis for the conversation, and the reason we all continue to talk about him. Why does anybody feel the need to start a thread about how passing on Vince wasn’t the end of the world? Because Vince fans claimed it would be, and when some evidence to the contrary arrives, us non-VYOF's feel the need to point out that you were wrong. Sure, it is a bit of schadenfreude and as such is a kind of a base pleasure. But I feel that I am returning the same kind of nastiness that has been heaped on my team in kind. If you think otherwise, I understand.

But I guess you are still debating whether there is reason for schadenfreude or not, so that might be irrelevant.

again there are as many threads about vince having a bad game as there are other vince threads, for example, the thread you're posting in. and i would disagree, if the texans weren't such a pathetic franchise, there wouldn't be such an obssession, either way with vince. because believe me, if the texans were better than the titans, the vince critics wouldn't feel the need to post about his woes.

and lastly, again, go look at my thread about the defensive line, which was fully civil and rational, until ric jumped in a week late and accused me of starting it out of vy love. go and look at it, and then you might think twice about using ric as the example of a "rational" fan.



Apparently you misunderstand. My point was that using the search function wasn't necessary. That if you polled a bunch of posters on the BBS, most of them would say that there are a lot of posters - a whole bunch more than just tinman - who said that the Texans made one of the worst draft decisions of all time because they passed on Vince Young. I don't think the truth of that point is worth debating or trying to prove. If you disagree and really want to challenge that characterization, we can.


dude, honestly I couldn't care less about vince playing in this town, my whole defense of vince of vince is because of vince. i haven't cared about a particular player playing in this town since steve francis was traded. I'm a grown man, i don't root for these franchises like i used to.

so you may call my defense of vince irrational, but it has nothing to do with the texans, believe me, I've never been a big fan of theres anyway. i root for them because they are the hometown team, but that's about it.

[Ric]

Yeah, his stats aren't pretty, but the same team went from winning to losing with him in the line-up (last season). There is no data in favor of or against the impact he had in those wins. However, I will let my common sense rule and conclude that when a team goes from sucking to winning after they make a QB change (most important position on the field), then the QB must be having some kinda impact, especially when his coaches and teammates are saying so (but hey, what do they know).
this is overly simplictic reasoning and a causal disconnect. it might have been the same team, in terms of the players, but their familiarity with the system - not to mention each other - was not. that's something that comes with experience and maybe it wasn't vince young, but the OL and DL getting "it" that was more important.

that the lines have continued to play at an exceedingly high level this year only underscores the idea.

last year, tennessee was also very fortunate - no shame in that. teams that win generally enjoy good luck. they won games that, any other year, they might not -- a 60-yard game-winning field goal; a 4Q opponent meltdown in which they coughed up a three-score lead; the defense scoring three touchdowns in a 3-point win; even, yes, winning a coin flip in OT.

its unfathomable how anyone could look at those results, dismiss them as flukey or fortunate, and instead lock in on some intangible presence of a single player.

[Icehouse]

this is overly simplictic reasoning and a causal disconnect. it might have been the same team, in terms of the players, but their familiarity with the system - not to mention each other - was not. that's something that comes with experience and maybe it wasn't vince young, but the OL and DL getting "it" that was more important.

that the lines have continued to play at an exceedingly high level this year only underscores the idea.

last year, tennessee was also very fortunate - no shame in that. teams that win generally enjoy good luck. they won games that, any other year, they might not -- a 60-yard game-winning field goal; a 4Q opponent meltdown in which they coughed up a three-score lead; the defense scoring three touchdowns in a 3-point win; even, yes, winning a coin flip in OT.

its unfathomable how anyone could look at those results, dismiss them as flukey or fortunate, and instead lock in on some intangible presence of a single player.

So that experience and “getting it” suddenly happened when Vince took over? And you call my argument simplistic?

As I stated in another thread you will not be convinced, and I’m not trying to convince you. I’m completely fine that we don’t agree. Continue to believe that VY had little impact, while the Titans are happy continuing to win or at least be competitive.

[Major]

this is overly simplictic reasoning and a causal disconnect. it might have been the same team, in terms of the players, but their familiarity with the system - not to mention each other - was not. that's something that comes with experience and maybe it wasn't vince young, but the OL and DL getting "it" that was more important.

Yup. After 2+ years of the OL and DL not getting it, it all changed the day Vince Young entered the starting lineup. Like I said, all luck. The coaches and players who credited Vince for changing the attitude of the team and practices are all either liars or clueless. No one except the Texans fan who doesn't even watch Titans games knows what was really going on.

[msn]

dude, honestly I couldn't care less about vince playing in this town
Then why are we arguing???

How 'bout them Texans! They didn't lose this week! How 'bout those Rox!!! Now, let's go to Starbucks and have a Latte. My treat.

[updawg]

, but the OL and DL getting "it" that was more important.

--------------------------------------------------------------

its unfathomable how anyone could look at those results, dismiss them as flukey or fortunate, and instead lock in on some intangible presence of a single player.
:confused:

[Ottomaton]

again there are as many threads about vince having a bad game as there are other vince threads, for example, the thread you're posting in.


But the process necessarily had to begin with the Texans are stupid Vince is great thread. Everyting that comes after plays out because of that.


and i would disagree, if the texans weren't such a pathetic franchise, there wouldn't be such an obssession, either way with vince. because believe me, if the texans were better than the titans, the vince critics wouldn't feel the need to post about his woes.


And Vince's pathetic play indicates that you have no idea what you are talking about and the Texans didn't make a mistake. ...and we are back where we started.


dude, honestly I couldn't care less about vince playing in this town, my whole defense of vince of vince is because of vince. i haven't cared about a particular player playing in this town since steve francis was traded. I'm a grown man, i don't root for these franchises like i used to.

so you may call my defense of vince irrational, but it has nothing to do with the texans, believe me, I've never been a big fan of theres anyway. i root for them because they are the hometown team, but that's about it.

But the only reason I care. If Vince wasn't linked to some supposed Texans mistake, and if people didn't constantly bring that up, you could start all the Vince manlove threads that you want and the rest of us would ignore you. If you start a thread about Chris Simms as the greatest of all time nobody will respond much. That doesn't mean that everybody agrees.

And I'm not sure if you noticed it, but you are on a BBS dedicated to support of an individual team. Perhaps you are in the wrong place?

[msn]

I wonder if one of the reasons we're so high on a guy with an infectious attitude and charismatic leadership qualities stems from the fact that we had the very definition of plain vanilla in Houston for five years. To make it worse, in what is most likely a painful coincidence Mr. Vanilla also happened to suck to holy heaven as an NFL quarterback.

It seems that part of the whole VY vitriol wasn't just the Texans' passing on him, but their statement that they didn't need VY because they had Vanilla. Like the Texans passed on Golden Boy so they retain Vanilla Boy.

I can recall several posters who came on board emotionally just because Vanilla Boy got shipped out of town. I can't say I blame them. For whatever reason you choose, there were a lot of reasons to dislike David Carr.

[Major]

If Vince wasn't linked to some supposed Texans mistake, and if people didn't constantly bring that up, you could start all the Vince manlove threads that you want and the rest of us would ignore you.

The problem you have is that the vast majority of the VY threads in this forum (not the hangout) are started by *Texans* fans - not VY fans. It's almost universally Texans fans that bring up VY here and then simultaneously whine that people talking about VY - this thread is a perfect example.

[bobrek]

In Young's first 4 starts in 2006 (first start was game 4), the Titans were 2-4, so nothing happened immediately upon Young starting.

Starting with his 7th game the Titans went on a 6 game winning streak.

In his 7th game, he threw for 101 yards and the Titans defeated the Eagles 31-13. The Titans returned both a punt and a fumble for TDs and Henry had a 70 yard run.

In his 8th game, Young had a great game and led the Titans to a huge 4th quarter win over the Giants and it could be argued that this was the game the "legend" was born. Ironically, had one of the Giants players inexplicably not released Young when he had him wrapped up for a sack, they quite probably would have lost that game.

Game 9 was won one on a 60 yard FG at the end of the game. Young was decent in this one. Again, an improbable play (60 yard FG), adds to the "legend", although without the FG, the game would have gone into OT and who knows what would have happened.

Game 10 was the OT run for the TD against the Texans. Other than that he had a pretty solid game.

Game 11 was a win with a fumble return and 2 interception returns for TDs. Young was relatively terrible.

Game 12 was a good one for Young. Good stats, good win.

Game 13 was not a good one for Young. Poor stats, but they lost to the Patriots, nothing to be ashamed of.

All in all, folks seem to forget the the Titans 6 game winning streak last year started in the 7th start of Young's career. Nothing "magical" happened when he first took the field. A few of those wins were arguably in spite of Young and a few were (in large part) because of Young.

[macalu]

The problem you have is that the vast majority of the VY threads in this forum (not the hangout) are started by *Texans* fans - not VY fans. It's almost universally Texans fans that bring up VY here and then simultaneously whine that people talking about VY - this thread is a perfect example.
could you post the last ten VY threads and tell me who started them? i really don't know what you say is true or not. this is a genuine request. if that is really the case, then hey, i don't know what to say except that texans fans should shut up about him.

[Ottomaton]

The problem you have is that the vast majority of the VY threads in this forum (not the hangout) are started by *Texans* fans - not VY fans. It's almost universally Texans fans that bring up VY here and then simultaneously whine that people talking about VY - this thread is a perfect example.

I don't necessarily agree with this if you take the totality of threads back 30 months to the draft two years ago. But I would say that necessarily, the more Vince sucks the more Texans fans will chime in to crow, while the more Vince does well, the more his rabid legions will chime in to do their own crowing.

So perhaps your statement provides answers that you don't intend. I will agree that in the past 6 months there have been more anti-Vince threads than the other way around. Last year, however, there was an endless litany of Vince-love threads, one after another.

In addition to the necessary poorer performance of Vince this year, I attribute the recent rise in anti-Vince threads to the release of pent up frustration.

[macalu]

In addition to the necessary poorer performance of Vince this year, I attribute the recent rise in anti-Vince threads to the release of pent up frustration.
no kidding. we've had to put up with having to read how great he is, and we're just returning the favor.

[Groogrux]

Yup. After 2+ years of the OL and DL not getting it, it all changed the day Vince Young entered the starting lineup. Like I said, all luck. The coaches and players who credited Vince for changing the attitude of the team and practices are all either liars or clueless. No one except the Texans fan who doesn't even watch Titans games knows what was really going on.

It could've had something to do with the schedule as well:

Sep 10 - N.Y. Jets - L (16-23)
Sep 17 - at San Diego - L (7-40)
Sep 24 - at Miami - L (10-13)

They barely lost to two bad teams and were blown out by one of the best teams in the league.

Are two close losses to bad-mediocre teams and one blowout by one of the best teams in the league really a good enough sample size to conclude that they weren't getting it?

[pgabriel]

But the process necessarily had to begin with the Texans are stupid Vince is great thread. Everyting that comes after plays out because of that.

no the process began with the worst expansion franchise in nfl history, they have earned their right to be criticized at every turn.



And Vince's pathetic play indicates that you have no idea what you are talking about and the Texans didn't make a mistake. ...and we are back where we started.

but the titans were only slightly worse than the texans, now they are undoubtly better, so those draft picks may have something to do with that



But the only reason I care. If Vince wasn't linked to some supposed Texans mistake, and if people didn't constantly bring that up, you could start all the Vince manlove threads that you want and the rest of us would ignore you. If you start a thread about Chris Simms as the greatest of all time nobody will respond much. That doesn't mean that everybody agrees.

again, what group started this thread, so neither has a right to claim the other started whatever, people have been talking about vince since he was a freshman at ut

And I'm not sure if you noticed it, but you are on a BBS dedicated to support of an individual team. Perhaps you are in the wrong place?

uh it sure is, and the last time i checked its not the texans :p

[msn]

uh it sure it is, and the last time i checked its not the texans :p
It's the Astros!!

Michael Bourn, baby!!!

[Ric]

i honestly and sincerely have NO IDEA what your point is, so i have no idea how to respond to it:
Yup. After 2+ years of the OL and DL not getting it, it all changed the day Vince Young entered the starting lineup.
are you being sarcastic? this would seem to be something i might lead off with. but then you go on to say:
The coaches and players who credited Vince for changing the attitude of the team and practices are all either liars or clueless. No one except the Texans fan who doesn't even watch Titans games knows what was really going on.
this seems in direct contrast to your more dismissive, sarcastic opening....

regardless, here is tennessee's starting OL and DL and the year they came to nashville: OL - olson ('98); bell ('04); roos ('05); stewart ('05); scaiffe, te ('05); mawae ('06); DL - haynesworth ('02); odom ('04); vande bosch ('05); brown ('06).

so which is more likely: two now-nearly dominant units essentially assembled over a 2, 2.5 year period finally began to gel, or a single, mediocre QB somehow making a bad team good?

i would never - and have never - argued baby vince was insignificant; only that his actualy contribution paled in comparison to the hype/credit he received. the OL, DL, fisher, luck, pacman jones were all more important.

[Mr. Clutch]

I think we should have drafted Marques Colston with the #1 pick.

[Ric]

Yup. After 2+ years of the OL and DL not getting it, it all changed the day Vince Young entered the starting lineup.
ETA: and the titans didn't suddenly "get it" the day baby vince stepped onto the field, either. they were 2-4 in his first 6 starts, winning the two by a combined score of 9 and losing their 4 by a combined score of 63, or 15.8/game.

in their three losses prior to baby vince, they lost their 3 games by a combined 43, or 14.3/game.

so it's not like a magical switch went off.

[TMac640]

Nope. I mean you, who scream at Ric for speaking about Vince with anything but abject adoration. I mean the 1,000,000 UT fans that suffered coronary embolisms and have spent 18 months trashing the Texans for the unmentionable crime of not choosing the savior of all mankind. I speak of the legions that convince themselves that Vince Young's rookie season was enough to send him to Canton despite a 66.7 passer rating because of some magic, unquantifiable winning voodoo power that enables him to be the sole cause of victories despite having a horrible day.

In general, I view tinman like I view Kam - the town jester or the class clown. I never take anything he writes seriously or at face value and as such he will never upset me. He is comic relief (and very good at being comic relief).

Since we have the search function back, I could go look up the posts from millions of militant fans. For a couple of seconds I thought about doing that, but changed my mind. It would be like feeling compelled to provide evidence if I had said the sun rises in the east; the disconnect with reality on the subject of Vince Young should be apparent to all. The same effect was true to a lesser degree for the other greatest player of all time available in that draft - Reggie Bush. But I guess like Heaven’s Gate members who killed themselves to visit the mothership, it must be difficult to see your own collective insanity from the inside.


THANK YOU.

[Ric]

So that experience and “getting it” suddenly happened when Vince took over? And you call my argument simplistic?
i think the two events are completely and totally unreleated. the OL/DL were going to gel with or without vince young. look at my other post and when they acquired the starters along those lines - 60% came to tennessee in '05 and '06; 80% were over the period of '04-'06.

as we're seeing with the texans, it takes time for lines to gel and play together as a unit. the oilers drafted munchak and matthews in back-to-back years ('82 and '83), and really didn't gel as a unit until the second half of the '86 season.

Continue to believe that VY had little impact, while the Titans are happy continuing to win or at least be competitive.
i never said he had "little" impact; his impact and the credit he receives is not in line with his actual contributions.

[Icehouse]

In Young's first 4 starts in 2006 (first start was game 4), the Titans were 2-4, so nothing happened immediately upon Young starting.

No offense, but this is where the post should end and a key reason why the two sides will never agree. After 3 games the Titans were 0-3 (got creamed by SD but only lost by 7 and 3 in the other two games). Their starting QB up until that point had 1 TD, 6 picks (2 per game) and a completion % of 47%. I think it’s safe to say very erratic QB play led to the QB change.

The Titans got creamed in VY’s first start (by the Cowgirls). They came within 1 point of beating that year’s champion in his second start (only 1 interception/mistake plus his teams lone touchdown). They won their next game against Washington (one fumble/mistake and one passing TD, completed over half his passes including a key 4th and two 23 yard pass that led to the go ahead TD as they overcame an 11 point deficit). I would call that immediate success, especially for a rookie QB (making plays, keeping the mistakes down).

Starting with his 7th game the Titans went on a 6 game winning streak.

In his 7th game, he threw for 101 yards and the Titans defeated the Eagles 31-13. The Titans returned both a punt and a fumble for TDs and Henry had a 70 yard run.

In his 8th game, Young had a great game and led the Titans to a huge 4th quarter win over the Giants and it could be argued that this was the game the "legend" was born. Ironically, had one of the Giants players inexplicably not released Young when he had him wrapped up for a sack, they quite probably would have lost that game.

Game 9 was won one on a 60 yard FG at the end of the game. Young was decent in this one. Again, an improbable play (60 yard FG), adds to the "legend", although without the FG, the game would have gone into OT and who knows what would have happened.

Game 10 was the OT run for the TD against the Texans. Other than that he had a pretty solid game.

Game 11 was a win with a fumble return and 2 interception returns for TDs. Young was relatively terrible.

Game 12 was a good one for Young. Good stats, good win.

Game 13 was not a good one for Young. Poor stats, but they lost to the Patriots, nothing to be ashamed of.

All in all, folks seem to forget the the Titans 6 game winning streak last year started in the 7th start of Young's career. Nothing "magical" happened when he first took the field. A few of those wins were arguably in spite of Young and a few were (in large part) because of Young.

So by your own account that’s one great game, one good one and two solid ones (including one game winning play) from your ROOKIE QB. Again, emphasis on rookie. And I also think most QB’s are taken down for the sack against the Giants. Most QB’s are not large physical specimens that don’t fall easily….

Again, not great but great play for a rookie QB. Not the 2nd coming of Jesus but fairly silly to say he didn’t have an impact on his team turning the corner last season, and going from the bottom with our team to contending for the division and a playoff spot….

[Ric]

go and look at it, and then you might think twice about using ric as the example of a "rational" fan.
let me ask you a sincere question: which of my posts, defenses, etc., have been irrational?

all i've EVER argued is that there's a middle, more gray area to an increasingly lazy reliance on black and white. it's either this or that. if you criticize vince young, you "believe that VY had little impact;" if you try and paint a larger, more encompassing picture of what david carr (and the texans) endured in his first four years, you're an excuse-making apologist.

i don't live on either extreme. i learn as a i go; sometimes by participating in these threads. everything i've ever stated with regards to vince young is at least steeped in observation, research, etc. i try to avoid hyperbole because i find it interesting to turn things on their side and see what sticks.

these debates become so polarizing... people choose sides, dig in their heels and then stick fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to more reasonable attitudes. you can certainly label my approach and posts a lot of things, but i fail to see how they've been irrational: i'm not making things up; i'm not misrepresenting facts....

[pgabriel]

let me ask you a sincere question: which of my posts, defenses, etc., have been irrational?




ric, I hate to keep using you as an example, it really isn't fair, I understand i hate when people do it to me, you've just become the example in this debate with otto. no offense.

I'll move on

[gucci888]

Maybe Vince. Doubtful on Mario and Bush.

I'm confused as to why you think Bush had a good rookie season. Compared to the other 2006 RB rookies, Bush was mediocre to below average at best. If you look at the 2006 stats of rookie running backs (and to be fair, ONLY those with 99+ rushing attempts, of which there are a total of 9), here is Bush's rankings:

Yds: 7th out of 9
Avg: 9th out of 9
Yds/G: 8th out of 9
TDs: T4th out of 9
Long: 9th out of 9
Fumbles: T1st out of 9 (higher is worse)

And don't forget about the heinous 11 ATT, -5 YD game he put up against Tampa Bay last year...

Project or not, all three top picks have sucked so far.

That's why I said they had "pretty good" rookie seasons. But the reason why I think he had a "pretty good" season is that he finished the year strong, especially compared to how he started, 9 Total TDs (all basically in the 2nd half) is better than mediocre or below average IMO. But none of the Top 3 have lived up to their sophomore year expectations, that's for sure.

[msn]

I'm confused as to why you think Bush had a good rookie season. Compared to the other 2006 RB rookies, Bush was mediocre to below average at best. If you look at the 2006 stats of rookie running backs (and to be fair, ONLY those with 99+ rushing attempts, of which there are a total of 9), here is Bush's rankings:

Yds: 7th out of 9
Avg: 9th out of 9
Yds/G: 8th out of 9
TDs: T4th out of 9
Long: 9th out of 9
Fumbles: T1st out of 9 (higher is worse)

And don't forget about the heinous 11 ATT, -5 YD game he put up against Tampa Bay last year...
You left out YoD. Bush's YoD was like 2,77something last year. Almost 2800 yards. It set an NFL record. It was all over ESPN. It was first out of the 9 rookies, and by a long shot, too. Any discussion on Reggie Bush begins and ends with YoD, baby. He's an all-timer in this all-important statistic.

( YoD is Yards off Decoy :-p )

[HillBoy]

Yeah, a crappy qb that can't pass. That's exactly what the Texans need (to be a winless team and get the #1 pick again).
Which they'd probably end up blowing on another defensive lineman...although this year Miami has far too much momemtum in the race for that top pick. Wonder if they'll pass on the franchise QB and pick another KR/WR like Ted Ginn Jr. again?

[gucci888]

Which they'd probably end up blowing on another defensive lineman...although this year Miami has far too much momemtum in the race for that top pick. Wonder if they'll pass on the franchise QB and pick another KR/WR like Ted Ginn Jr. again?

Miami picked up Beck last year so I don't think they'll go w/ a QB. They could really use OL help so Jake Long would be a solid/smart pick. But then again...we're talking about the Dolphins.

[msn]

I'd be interested to know how many "franchise QBs" were top overall picks and how many were top 5. Aikman wasn't. Was Montana or Elway? Favre wasn't. I'm wondering if for every Pick 1 superstar there are five RyanLeafTimCouchDavidCarrs.

[Ric]

I'd be interested to know how many "franchise QBs" were top overall picks and how many were top 5. Aikman wasn't. Was Montana or Elway? Favre wasn't. I'm wondering if for every Pick 1 superstar there are five RyanLeafTimCouchDavidCarrs.
aikman wasn't what? he was the top overall pick. so was elway. bradshaw, too. and manning. vick. carr.

i think the only other one since 1970 was steve bartkowski.

[msn]

aikman wasn't what? he was the top overall pick. so was elway. bradshaw, too. and manning. vick. carr.
Really? There went my memory.

Like I said, "I'd be interested to know." Now I know. :D

[HillBoy]

i can't argue that vince adds more to the game than just stats. maybe it is b/c he's trying to change his game. but he doesn't look comfortable at all in the pocket. i guess it's like trying to turn T-mac into a point guard. sure he can do it, but he'll never be as effective as he would playing his own game.
At the risk of sounding reasonable, I have watched VY aka The Chosen One closely this season and it appears to me that the main problem he's facing is that Norm Chow has not geared their offense to take advantage of his talents. His passing is really not that bad - he just has an odd looking flick type of throw. His passes are indeed more accurate than I would have thought given his peculiar throwing motion. But it does appear that he and his receivers and Norm Chow are all on different pages - they appear to be seeing different things out there as if they aren't making the proper reads. And Chow has leaned far too heavily on the run with a conservative game plan which reduces their number of big plays on offense and ends up digging them into a hole. After all, defense can only carry you so far - at some point you gotta put some points on the board. It's a shame that he's playing without the cadre of receivers that we have here because (when healthy) the Texans' receiving core is far superior to that of Tennessee. All in all, I think it's a bit premature to cover the kid with dirt just yet because he does have the drive, grit and determination to become a topflight QB in the NFL unlike the former QB from here whose name shall not be uttered.

[Ric]

Really?
i thought you might have meant aikman wasn't a franchise QB (which he wasn'tcoughcough)... yeah, first overall pick in '89.

There went my memory.
mine, too - i left out plunkett, testaverde, george, bledsoe and couch.

[bobrek]

No offense, but this is where the post should end and a key reason why the two sides will never agree. After 3 games the Titans were 0-3 (got creamed by SD but only lost by 7 and 3 in the other two games). Their starting QB up until that point had 1 TD, 6 picks (2 per game) and a completion % of 47%. I think it’s safe to say very erratic QB play led to the QB change.

The Titans got creamed in VY’s first start (by the Cowgirls). They came within 1 point of beating that year’s champion in his second start (only 1 interception/mistake plus his teams lone touchdown). They won their next game against Washington (one fumble/mistake and one passing TD, completed over half his passes including a key 4th and two 23 yard pass that led to the go ahead TD as they overcame an 11 point deficit). I would call that immediate success, especially for a rookie QB (making plays, keeping the mistakes down).



So by your own account that’s one great game, one good one and two solid ones (including one game winning play) from your ROOKIE QB. Again, emphasis on rookie. And I also think most QB’s are taken down for the sack against the Giants. Most QB’s are not large physical specimens that don’t fall easily….

Again, not great but great play for a rookie QB. Not the 2nd coming of Jesus but fairly silly to say he didn’t have an impact on his team turning the corner last season, and going from the bottom with our team to contending for the division and a playoff spot….

The whole point of my post is that it seems a number of posters (not saying you), seem to think that Young single handedly saved the Titans' season when it was obviously a total team effort. He had some poor games that his team was able to win inspite of him.

Based on the Titans entire season, they won as a team. Young was 8-5 as a starter. Compared to 0-3 that was an outstanding record, but football doesn't give wins and losses to the QB. Young had a tremendous amount of help.

[blackistan]

He still wins games though

[hieuytran]

the titans win inspite of vy not because of him...

vy = rafer

[DonkeyMagic]

the titans win inspite of vy not because of him...

vy = rafer

he does control the tempo of the game

[Icehouse]

The whole point of my post is that it seems a number of posters (not saying you), seem to think that Young single handedly saved the Titans' season when it was obviously a total team effort. He had some poor games that his team was able to win inspite of him.

Based on the Titans entire season, they won as a team. Young was 8-5 as a starter. Compared to 0-3 that was an outstanding record, but football doesn't give wins and losses to the QB. Young had a tremendous amount of help.

I agree, it was a team effort, but he heavily contributed to that effort. I think pre Vince you had a QB making mistakes, that couldn't make any big plays. Post Vince you had a QB making less mistakes, that could occassionally make a big play..hence the difference in wins. It's not all on him but don't say (not you) things suddenly started to happen that hadn't happened in two seasons at the same time he got in the lineup (i.e. he was lucky and dismiss his impact).

I think a rookie QB making few mistakes and big plays (some which lead directly to wins i.e. the game in Houston) is pretty solid, especially considering how many rookie QB's are complete disasters in their first few years. I watch games that feature tons of QB's that just never get it (we just had one in Houston).

And every QB needs help to win. Manning lost all his offensive studs and threw 6 int's last night. He just relied on his RB's and defense to win a SB and some consider him the best in the game.

[Another Brother]

.
The whole thing is a bit of schadenfreude...

what the eff is a scandalfrog?



...sry carry on.

[SmitingPurpleEm]

He still wins games though

Trent Dilfer started on a SB-winning team.

[BetterThanI]

what the eff is a scandalfrog?

Did ya ever clap when a waitress falls and drops a tray of glasses?
And ain't it fun to watch figure skaters falling on their asses?
Don'tcha feel all warm and cozy watching people out in the rain!
That's...
Schadenfreude!
People taking pleasure in your pain!

Watching a vegetarian being told she just ate chicken
Or watching a frat boy realize just what he put his d!ck in!
Being on the elevator when somebody shouts "Hold the door!"
"No!!!"
Schadenfreude!
"F@*k you lady, that's what stairs are for!"

Straight-A students getting Bs!
Exes getting STDs!
Waking doormen from their naps!
Watching tourists reading maps!
Football players getting tackled!
CEOs getting shackled!
Watching actors never reach
The ending of their oscar speech!
Schadenfreude!

The world needs people like you and me who've been knocked around by fate.
'Cause when people see us, they don't want to be us, and that makes them feel great.
We provide a vital service to society! You and me!
Schadenfreude!
Making the world a better place...
To be!

S-C-H-A-D-E-N-F-R-E-U-D-E!

[KingCheetah]

Trent Dilfer started on a SB-winning team.

That is why he is headed for the Hall of Fame when he retires.

[The Cat]

He still wins games though

So why not trade Andre Johnson for Justin Gage?

[Mr. Clutch]

So why not trade Andre Johnson for Justin Gage?

Not a big enough sample size for Gage?

[The Cat]

Not a big enough sample size for Gage?

Gage went to Mizzou, that's all the sample size he needs. ;)

[Storm Surge]

BUSH.

[Rocket River]

Let's Rank the teams
New Orleans, Houston and Tennessee

Offensively .. the TEAMS Rank this way
New Orleans has the most offensive Talent
Houston has better receivers than Tennesseee
but Tennessee has better running backs.
1. New Orleans
2. houston and Tennessee tied

Defensively
Tennesee is far superior
Texans IMO maybe as good if not better than New Orleans
but with Dunta out .. that probably changes

VY is working with a superior defense, good running backs and sh*tty receivers
Bush is working with a decent overall team. probably the best TEAM.
Mario is on a good defense.

As for as support around them to maximize their best ability
IMO VY having the worse receives is a major hampering affect on him.
Bush has the best supporting case . . good line. . good QB . .Good Receiver
Mario has decent support. but it is young. Okoye, Ryans.

Being a top pick automatically means u not going to the best of the best'

Rocket River

[msn]

Mario has decent support. but it is young. Okoye, Ryans.
The defense has also been left on the field a little too much lately, probably due to the disintegration of our running attack. Never thought I'd say it, but man, I miss McKinney.

[Ric]

Mario is on a good defense.
it's one of the worst secondaries in football, and that was BEFORE dunta's leg fell off. i wouldn't term the houston defense "good."

[Desert_Rocket]

Titans will not make the playoffs.

[tulexan]

Being a top pick automatically means u not going to the best of the best'


Except for whoever gets picked by the Patriots with the Niners' first round pick.

[Icehouse]

it's one of the worst secondaries in football, and that was BEFORE dunta's leg fell off. i wouldn't term the houston defense "good."

That is true, but line play has been dissapointing as of late. No pressure on the QB....

[weslinder]

That is true, but line play has been dissapointing as of late. No pressure on the QB....

People always talk about the line making the secondary better or worse, but the converse happens, too. With few exceptions, it takes time to shed a block and get into the backfield. When a QB can hit his first read, the DL doesn't have a chance to get into the backfield.

[Icehouse]

People always talk about the line making the secondary better or worse, but the converse happens, too. With few exceptions, it takes time to shed a block and get into the backfield. When a QB can hit his first read, the DL doesn't have a chance to get into the backfield.

This is true, but all too often I have seen opposing QB's sit in the pocket, clip their toenails, take a dump then complete a pass. Quite often they have all day in the pocket, which is a clear sign that the D-line is not getting it done.

[Desert_Rocket]

I'm going to hold off on any further judgement and see what VY does in the second half of the season.

Thankfully, there is a rabid VY fan in my fantasy league and he starts VY every week, needless to say this guy is not in 1st place.

[leroy420]

I'm going to hold off on any further judgement and see what VY does in the second half of the season.

Thankfully, there is a rabid VY fan in my fantasy league and he starts VY every week, needless to say this guy is not in 1st place.

tinman?

[pgabriel]

I'm going to hold off on any further judgement and see what VY does in the second half of the season.

Thankfully, there is a rabid VY fan in my fantasy league and he starts VY every week, needless to say this guy is not in 1st place.


I won my league last season starting vince

[DonnyMost]

I won my league last season starting vince

my dad can beat up your dad

[pgabriel]

my dad can beat up your dad

dude, i was just responding to that post about playing vince in fantasy, I don't even know what your post means. but i guess it sounded funny to you

fantasy league and actual are two different things, with vince's rushing yards, he was a decent fantasy player last season

[Rokkit]

all 3 picks have been disappointing this year. I think the question should be: Who will be, 3 seasons from now, the best player?

[TheFreak]

I'm going to hold off on any further judgement and see what VY does in the second half of the season.

Please let us know when you are ready to make your judgement. I'll be checking back frequently towards the end of the season.

[Desert_Rocket]

I won my league last season starting vince

Last season is the key word. He had decent fantasy number last year. This year however, awful.

[Desert_Rocket]

Please let us know when you are ready to make your judgement. I'll be checking back frequently towards the end of the season.

K. I'll send you an email thru the board to remind you.

[Locke]

all 3 picks have been disappointing this year. I think the question should be: Who will be, 3 seasons from now, the best player?

Jay Cutler

[Mr. Clutch]

all 3 picks have been disappointing this year. I think the question should be: Who will be, 3 seasons from now, the best player?

Marques Colston, the last pick of the draft.

[Groogrux]

Marques Colston, the last pick of the draft.

4th to last pick (http://football.about.com/od/nfldrafthistory/a/2006draftresult_4.htm).

[Major]

4th to last pick (http://football.about.com/od/nfldrafthistory/a/2006draftresult_4.htm).

Dude was a tight end at Hofstra?? :confused:

[DonnyMost]

dude, i was just responding to that post about playing vince in fantasy, I don't even know what your post means. but i guess it sounded funny to you

fantasy league and actual are two different things, with vince's rushing yards, he was a decent fantasy player last season

i just don't like you as a person is all.

[Icehouse]

Marques Colston, the last pick of the draft.

Even he has been dissapointing until recently. What player has consistently played well since being drafted that year, besides Ryans?

[weslinder]

all 3 picks have been disappointing this year. I think the question should be: Who will be, 3 seasons from now, the best player?

I was in the vast minority and wanted AJ Hawk, and he's been incredible.

[H-Town Info]

I was in the vast minority and wanted AJ Hawk, and he's been incredible.

me too

[Mr. Clutch]

Would we need AJ Hawk if we were targetting Demeco?

[rhino17]

Imagine having AJ Hawk AND DeMeco Ryans in the same linebacking core. That would be fantasic

[tulexan]

Would we need AJ Hawk if we were targetting Demeco?

I don't think we were targeting DeMeco. He was supposed to be a mid first round pick and when he fell to us, we couldn't believe it so we took him. Remember, we were trying to trade back into the first round with the Bears to get DeAngelo Williams or Joseph Addai but Buffalo offered a better deal.

[Red Chocolate]

It's not out of line to predict that MW will have a longer and possibly better career than VY and RB.

[Yaozer]

Yao Ming.

[T Rex]

INTERESTNG CHRON.COM NFL POLL
Based on how they've performed so far in their NFL careers, which player should the Texans have taken first in the 2006 draft?
(Poll closes: Today at 11:59 p.m.)

Reggie Bush 10%
Vince Young 32%
Joseph Addai 34%
Jay Cutler 3%
Maurice Jones-Drew 11%
Mario Williams 10%

[DonnyMost]

INTERESTNG CHRON.COM NFL POLL
Based on how they've performed so far in their NFL careers, which player should the Texans have taken first in the 2006 draft?
(Poll closes: Today at 11:59 p.m.)

Reggie Bush 10%
Vince Young 32%
Joseph Addai 34%
Jay Cutler 3%
Maurice Jones-Drew 11%
Mario Williams 10%

wow.

people are stupider than i thought...

[rezdawg]

wow.

people are stupider than i thought...

Yeah, no kidding...thats pathetic.

[BucMan55]

The Texans shutting down Reggie Bush yesterday was a conspiracy by the whole team to make Mario look better than Reggie.


Yeah...thats it.


And yes, VY is similar to Trent Dilfer w/ 2K Ravens but instead of the rare great play with his arm, he makes it with his feet.

[Mr. Clutch]

wow.

people are stupider than i thought...

Actually Addai is probably the correct choice. He's very good.

[macalu]

Actually Addai is probably the correct choice. He's very good.
i think donnymost is reference the large percentage of votes going to VY.

anyhow, Addai and Jones-Drew should be winning by a landslide. but after witnessing yesterday's game, and all the previous other games, Bush shouldn't even be on the poll.

[gucci888]

i think donnymost is reference the large percentage of votes going to VY.

anyhow, Addai and Jones-Drew should be winning by a landslide. but after witnessing yesterday's game, and all the previous other games, Bush shouldn't even be on the poll.

Did you see Jones-Drew knock Merriman on his a$$ yesterday? :eek:

[pgabriel]

Actually Addai is probably the correct choice. He's very good.

no, donnymost knows everything about football and everyone else is stupid

[weslinder]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5312674.html

Mario was out there in a whole other world. He was in Super Mario World: up, up, down, down, left, right, B, A, B, A — you know what I mean? He was playing original Super Mario, just enjoying himself.

[VesceySux]

Originally Posted by Travis Johnson
Mario was out there in a whole other world. He was in Super Mario World: up, up, down, down, left, right, B, A, B, A — you know what I mean? He was playing original Super Mario, just enjoying himself.

So, uh, Mario was playing Contra? :confused:

[seclusion]

So, uh, Mario was playing Contra? :confused:

ain't that the truth.

[Butterfingers]

I for one am defending the pick. 8 and a half sacks so far, compared to Reggie's 4 touchdowns, and Vince's 7 touchdowns. Both Vince and Bush have been pathetic this year offensively whereas Mario has consistently been good and is improving. Here is an article on Bush that well make everyone happy we didn't take him.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/12/04/is-new-orleans-starting-to-sour-on-reggie-bush/

Is New Orleans Starting to Fall Out of Love With Reggie Bush?

With two of the 15 highest-paid running backs in the league coming off of a wildly successful first season as a tandem, the Saints probably entered this year with no worries about the long-term state of the position.

Yet with Deuce McAllister's knees becoming more unreliable with each tear, the spotlight has fallen on Reggie Bush. And he's dropped the ball, literally and figuratively. And now the Saints have to worry about acquiring another running back this year.

There have been excuses made for Bush at every turn (including, admittedly, from myself) because of his big-play ability and immediate altruism upon arriving in New Orleans. But, as he approaches the end of his second year (sans any big plays this year, or medium plays for that matter), it's time to acknowledge the fact that Bush has been at best an incredible disappointment, at worst a flat-out bad player who's threatening locker room morale.

And I'm not even talking about his running prowess, although that leaves a little to be desired. Though he still hasn't quite understood the concept of "running forward," there are many other reasons the Saints can't run the ball, and not all of them are Bush's fault.

Let's backtrack for a second. As the Saints began the 2006 offseason, a lot of help was needed. This started at the top, where Jim Haslett and Aaron Brooks were both shown the door. Before Drew Brees' shoulder was maimed, laying the groundwork for his move to the Saints, fans thought the team's new quarterback was going to come from the draft. And there was one guy I knew for sure I did not want – Matt Leinart. I like my players like I like my women – low-maintenance and without the diva complex – and Leinart failed in both categories. Though it didn't seem relevant at the time, because Houston was "guaranteed" to take Bush, I didn't think of him the same as Leinart. As is almost always the case, I was wrong.

It started this past offseason, when there were much muted rumblings that some Saints veterans didn't appreciate Bush missing workout time to film some of his umpteenth commercials in California. And it's bled into this season, one in which Bush has regressed noticeably.

Again, forget the box scores. Instead, pay attention to the myriad of dropped passes, most of which are screens or short dump-offs that anyone with his athletic ability (or mine, for that matter) should be able to catch. Or how about the fumbles – eight this year. Or how about the punt that bounced right off his face against Jacksonville, which the Saints were lucky enough to recover at a crucial point. Or what about the handful of times Bush has just slipped and fallen or, worse yet, purposely hit the ground early to avoid contact.

These are the signs not of a player who isn't good enough, but a player who doesn't care to be good enough. And it's doing damage to the chemistry that carried the Saints so far last year. In the last couple of weeks, the frustration with Bush from his teammates has been on display. Perhaps none have hassled Bush more lately than Brees, who has been caught on camera screaming angrily at Bush after unnecessary drops and demonstrating with his hands in a condescending fashion how to catch a football.

Then there's last week's loss to the Bucs, where cameras caught Bush sitting desolately by himself with teammates bunched and communicating far away. With 14 seconds left in that game and the Saints in possession with a (very remote) chance of victory, Bush was already halfway to the locker room; Sean Payton had to furiously chase after him to pull him back to the sideline.

The media isn't pleased either, and they've made it known increasingly lately – when he gets pissy, Bush refuses to answer questions post-game, especially if the questions are about something he did to cost the team the game. This lack of accountability when other Saints are acting like professionals is maddening to everyone – the media, his teammates, and the fans (who are split on the matter, though the anti-Bush sentiment is growing).

The problem, as it so often is, is that Bush didn't have to earn anything to become a star in the NFL, and he doesn't look like he cares. His roster spot is in no danger for at least two years, and I have faith that one day he'll be a superstar. I just hope that day isn't after he's burned his bridges with the Saints.

[v3.0]

all 3 of them (Mario, Bush, Young) have been underwhelming...

[jopatmc]

I still would take Vince #1, Mario #2, and Bush #3 if we had to do the draft over. I believe that Mario will wind up being the second best player in the draft and Vince will be the best. Have no idea where Bush will end up. Right now, he's headed the way of a lot of those Paterno running backs.

[ima_drummer2k]

In hindsight, I would have traded down and got an extra pick or two.

Of course, at the time I wanted Bush because I thought he would be perfect for Kubiak's zone blocking scheme. But now, I'm starting to think Denver's great running game had more to do with their O-line and less to do with their scheme.

If I had to choose one of the three, I'd take Mario. Of the three, I think he has the most potential to be great.

Bush is Dave Meggett. Not bad, but hardly worth the #1 overall and all that money/hype.

Vince, I think, will struggle with injuries over the course of his career and never reach his full potential unless he turns into strictly pocket passer. Of course, if he does that, you take away what makes him special.

[JeopardE]

Actually, Bush has been bad. Very, very bad. A complete bust so far.

At this point anyone who actually says they'd still take him #3 is a joke. He isn't even playing worthy of a 5th round pick, frankly speaking.

There's still hope for him. Maybe this next offseason he'll stop filming commercials and actually work really hard and try to become an NFL-caliber running back. I don't think his phone's going to be ringing that frequently anymore anyway.

I am so thankful we didn't pick this guy.

As for Vince, yeah he has been bad too, but at least he has lots of room for improvement and is actually motivated to be a great player. That's why most people still think he has a chance to become a great NFL quarterback. Mario, on the other hand, has gotten an hugely unfair amount of flack through no fault of his own over his first two years, and has done nothing but work hard to prove himself ... now we're seeing the results.

And of course the bottom line is ... had we taken Bush OR Young in that draft, we would be a much worse team than we are today. That's the truth.

[BigSherv]

This was another interesting artcile. Not sure if it was already posted yet.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/reuben_frank/12/05/texans/index.html

Maybe the Texans were right after all.

The Texans were laughed at, mocked and ridiculed a couple Aprils ago, when they bypassed gifted Heisman Trophy winner Reggie Bush to draft workmanlike defensive end Mario Williams with the first pick in the draft. Nothing against Williams, but this was the Trail Blazers taking Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.

Bush was a can't-miss talent, a once-in-a-lifetime player. He was going to revolutionize the running back position.

Almost two full years in, the Saints are still waiting.

While Williams closes in on his first Pro Bowl season in Houston -- with 8½ sacks, he trails only Jared Allen of the Chiefs among AFC defensive ends -- Bush sputters along in New Orleans, looking less and less every week like a once-in-a-lifetime player.

More like the second coming of Larry Centers.

The Saints, who thought they lucked into a future Hall of Famer, are now trying to figure out how Bush became so ordinary and what to do with a guy who's essentially a high-priced role player on a 5-7 team.

"I think that everyone expects him to go out and just be Superman all the time and that is not the case, especially in this league," Saints quarterback Drew Brees said. "Reggie is a young back who is still learning how to play this game, learning how to be a professional."

Bush turned in a few electrifying plays last year, a few glimpses of greatness, but he's regressed this year; and that aura of greatness has faded a little more each week.

With four games left, Bush doesn't have a run longer than 22 yards. Trent Green, Jay Cutler, Josh McCown, Ben Roethlisberger, Donovan McNabb and Jason Campbell all have longer runs than Bush this year. And they're quarterbacks! Bush's 3.7 average is 37th out of 47 backs with 75 carries or more.

OK, but Bush is electrifying catching the ball out of the backfield, right? Wrong.

Despite 73 receptions, he doesn't have a catch longer than 25 yards. He's seventh in the NFL in catches but 77th in receiving yards.

Incredibly, the Texans' Williams actually owns a longer play this year than Bush -- his 38-yard fumble recovery for a touchdown is longer than any run, catch or return that Bush has managed.

So what's the problem?

Because of his physical limitations, Bush will never be an every-down back. The Saints concede this. "It's unfair to have those expectations," Brees said.

And he's such a poor blocker that teams recognize when he's running a pattern, he's probably going to get the ball, and they can adjust accordingly. Hence a 5.7 per-catch average, lowest by a back among the top 12 in catches in 63 years -- since Bob Davis of the Boston Yanks averaged 5.1 yards per reception in 1944.

"We try to give him enough opportunities where he's out in a route and he's not in protection," coach Sean Payton acknowledged.

No doubt Bush misses running mate Deuce McAllister, whose season ended after three weeks with a knee injury. But even before that, Bush was averaging 2.8 yards per carry and 4.4 yards per catch.

Bush was billed out of USC as a hybrid receiver and back, equally dangerous as a runner or receiver. But in reality, he's not physical enough to break tackles, not shifty enough to turn short catches into big plays and -- with eight fumbles (five in the last five games) -- not secure enough with the ball to be trusted in critical situations.

So what is he?




A bust? No, that's unfair. He's OK. But just OK. Because of his speed, he'll pop the occasional big play, though he hasn't this year. But when the Saints drafted Bush, they didn't think they were getting a guy who would rank a pedestrian 18th in the NFL in total yards.

Here's why this is such a huge problem for the Saints. Bush is signed through 2011 with cap numbers ranging from $3.7 million to $6.1, and McAllister is signed through 2012 with cap numbers ranging from $5.8 million to $8.2 million.

But McAllister, who turns 29 in a few weeks, is coming off a torn left ACL with MCL damage just 23 months after rehabbing a torn right ACL. He hopes to come back at some point next year but will likely never be the same. With McAllister's injuries and Bush's lackluster performance, a team that thought it had two brilliant running backs ... has none.

Because it's obvious that Bush is not Superman. He's barely even Mario Bates.

"Reggie is one of the best athletes I have ever seen, but that only gets you so far," Brees said. "(There are) certain fundamentals and discipline to playing this game that are learned. And that's not something that just happens immediately."

Most likely, Adrian Peterson, Brian Westbrook and Marion Barber will represent the NFC in the Pro Bowl in Hawaii.

That's OK. Maybe Mario Williams can send Bush a postcard.

[gucci888]

Mario has played well so far this season, especially the last 3-4 games. Bush and VY have definitely been disappointing considering the amount of hype surrounding their sophomore campaign. I think all 3 will be very good players but I don't you'll be hearing from all the Texan-haters that wanted Bush for a while

And of course the bottom line is ... had we taken Bush OR Young in that draft, we would be a much worse team than we are today. That's the truth.

That's the truth? Sounds like more of a personal opinion.

[rockmanslim]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/reuben_frank/12/05/texans/index.html

More like the second coming of Larry Centers.



Not exactly sure what comparison the author is trying to make here (other than maybe that Larry Centers was used alot as a pass catching back out of the backfield?), but that's an insult to Larry Centers. From what I remember, Larry Centers was a bruising back that dished out as much or more punishment to his tacklers as he received. The next time I see Bush put a hurting on a tackler, instead of hitting the ground or ducking out of bounds, will be the first.

[pgabriel]

Vince, I think, will struggle with injuries over the course of his career and never reach his full potential unless he turns into strictly pocket passer. Of course, if he does that, you take away what makes him special.

this is such a dumb criticism of running threat qbs, especially considering that our "pocket" passer can't stay healthy. players are either injury prone or not. vince has never had a problem with injuries, and has only missed one game so far because of one and he could have played in that game.

[VesceySux]

Most likely, Adrian Peterson, Brian Westbrook and Marion Barber will represent the NFC in the Pro Bowl in Hawaii.

That's OK. Maybe Mario Williams can send Bush a postcard.

Oh snap! Glad to see that the media is finally warming up to Mario, while also simultaneously realizing that Bush is a fraud.

[msn]

this is such a dumb criticism of running threat qbs, especially considering that our "pocket" passer can't stay healthy. players are either injury prone or not. vince has never had a problem with injuries, and has only missed one game so far because of one and he could have played in that game.
Brace yourself bro: I agree with you on this point.

[Icehouse]

As one who was in favor of picking Vince, I think Mario has played well this season. I hope he continues to improve...

[MadMax]

As one who was in favor of picking Vince, I think Mario has played well this season. I hope he continues to improve...

well said. i agree. go mario!

[Refman]

Mario has played well so far this season, especially the last 3-4 games. Bush and VY have definitely been disappointing considering the amount of hype surrounding their sophomore campaign. I think all 3 will be very good players but I don't you'll be hearing from all the Texan-haters that wanted Bush for a while
I don't agree with this at all.

1. Reggie Bush will NEVER be a good between the tackles RB in the NFL. He is WAY too undersized.

2. I think that what you are seeing from VY this year is what he really is as a QB. He has a QB rating of about 65. He has horrible decision making skills as a pro. This is not likely to get better.

I'm not saying that Mario is going to be a hall of famer, but his sack totals this year (particularly the last 3 games) have been on the upswing.

[Uprising]

This was another interesting artcile. Not sure if it was already posted yet.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/reuben_frank/12/05/texans/index.html

Maybe the Texans were right after all.


While Williams closes in on his first Pro Bowl season in Houston -- with 8½ sacks, he trails only Jared Allen of the Chiefs among AFC defensive ends -- Bush sputters along in New Orleans, looking less and less every week like a once-in-a-lifetime player.


Incredibly, the Texans' Williams actually owns a longer play this year than Bush -- his 38-yard fumble recovery for a touchdown is longer than any run, catch or return that Bush has managed.



AWESOME!! :eek: :eek: :D :D :D

[Major]

2. I think that what you are seeing from VY this year is what he really is as a QB. He has a QB rating of about 65. He has horrible decision making skills as a pro. This is not likely to get better.


Why do you think this? Why do you think VY - someone who was considered a project coming out of college, and whom most thought wouldn't even play his rookie year - has peaked in his 2nd year?

Decision making is the last thing to come for good play-making QBs. Most of them have a huge impact on games early - both making lots of big plays and lots of big mistakes. Over time, the great ones improve by reducing their mistakes. There's nothing in Vince's curve thus far to suggest he's not capable of improving, and he went through the exact same progression at the college level. (on the other hand, plenty of non-successful QB's also follow this path - they just never cut down on the mistakes)

He had probably 3 of his best throwing games of his career the last 3 weeks. I think it's way too early to say what's going to come of Vince's career - same with Cutler & Leinart, the other QB's drafted that year. However, all three are well ahead of the curve compared to other QBs in recent years. By comparison, the two 1st round QB's this year have yet to start a single game. Last year, all 3 of the 1st rounders were starting by this point. Of the three 1st round QB's in 2005, only Campbell is solidly holding onto a starting job, and he's been mediocre. Aaron Rodgers has yet to start, and Alex Smith has struggled a whole lot.

[leebigez]

I don't agree with this at all.

1. Reggie Bush will NEVER be a good between the tackles RB in the NFL. He is WAY too undersized.

2. I think that what you are seeing from VY this year is what he really is as a QB. He has a QB rating of about 65. He has horrible decision making skills as a pro. This is not likely to get better.

I'm not saying that Mario is going to be a hall of famer, but his sack totals this year (particularly the last 3 games) have been on the upswing.

I really dont think it has anything to do with size. Its kinda like playing center in the nba. Its a mentatilty of wanting to do the dirty work and playing inside. In the If guys like Rasheed Wallace,Webber,Garnett,and duncan had come out in the 80's, they would be centers. Being a rb and wanting to do everything inside and outside is a mentality, not size. Dunn, Chalie garner,LT, aren't big guys, but they know how to run inside. Faulk was 511 200 and he scored and ran inside his entire career. Ahman Green coming out of nebraska is the same size as bush and he was a elite back between the tackles. If you've never done and isn't used to doing it, its very hard to learn. I never bought into the Reggie Bush hype and buddies of mine thought i was crazy. Sometimes one game can make up the mind. I just remember in the end of the bcs game and he was on the sidelines with the coach. I said Eric Metcalf back then and i still say it, but the nfl and the marketers thought they had this super guy. What they really had awas a 3rd down guy that got alo of credit last year for catching swing passes. They also had this notion about decoy this and this invisble impact he had. Well the truth always come out.

[Master Baiter]

Why do you think this? Why do you think VY - someone who was considered a project coming out of college, and whom most thought wouldn't even play his rookie year - has peaked in his 2nd year?
A project?? You are seriously delusional. You don't draft someone 1st, 2nd, or 3rd to be a project.

[pgabriel]

A project?? You are seriously delusional. You don't draft someone 1st, 2nd, or 3rd to be a project.

are you delusional, qbs get drafted number one and don't even play their first year. carson palmer, phillip rivers, etc. and those guys were supposed to be more nfl ready.

[Major]

A project?? You are seriously delusional. You don't draft someone 1st, 2nd, or 3rd to be a project.

:confused: The general consensus coming out of college was that he was absurdly athletic and a great playmaker, but still needed time to learn the NFL, learn to read defenses, etc and that he probably wouldn't play at all his first year - or maybe just bits and pieces of games. This was pretty widely accepted by just about everyone. It was extremely surprising when he actually started early last year. Remember, before the Rose Bowl, no one even thought of him as coming out that year - he was expected to stay for his senior year to develop his abilities to read defenses and all that fun.

He was by-far the least "NFL-ready" of the all the top picks, especially as compared to Matt Leinart (the other top QB prospect), who was much more considered ready to jump right in because of his experience with an NFL system. There are all sorts of projects that are taken in the top picks - Alex Smith, for example, was a "system QB" that people expected would take time to learn the NFL game. Even Mario Williams was considered a bit of a project - lots of potential, but he needed time to develop and learn better technique.

[KingCheetah]

Mario has been looking really good lately -- Bush looks to be out for the season with a torn PCL and Vince (who has actually been playing better lately) just doesn't have the same confidence he had at the end of last season.

Btw -- Mario, Reggie, and Vince were all projects coming out of college.

[tulexan]

Mario has been looking really good lately -- Bush looks to be out for the season with a torn PCL and Vince (who has actually been playing better lately) just doesn't have the same confidence he had at the end of last season.

Btw -- Mario, Reggie, and Vince were all projects coming out of college.

I would say of the top picks the only one who wasn't a project was AJ Hawk.

[gucci888]

Btw -- Mario, Reggie, and Vince were all projects coming out of college.

Not sure if I would say they were all considered prospects. People were really hyping Bush to be an instant star and franchise player. Out of all 3, I think VY was the only one considered a project since he is a QB.

MARIO WITH THE SACK!!

[Desert_Rocket]

The texans made the correct choice.

[surrender]

Mario Williams is a ****ing monster

[Kerfeld]

The texans made the correct choice.

I will admit, I cursed the Texans when they made the pick. I wanted Reggie Bush. Shows what I know. The pick is absolutely justified.

[Mr. Clutch]

Some people thought that for the rest of Time, the Texans would never live down passing up on VY.

[Chuck 4]

I will admit, I cursed the Texans when they made the pick. I wanted Reggie Bush. Shows what I know. The pick is absolutely justified.

I'll share that crow with you, Kerfeld...

[BigSherv]

"You can't see me or be me!"

http://mgrsti3030s.seamlesstech.biz/Merchant/0307/super_mario_bros_150cm_shop.jpg

[Angkor Wat]

Mario Williams > VY > Reggie Bush

TEXANS FTW!!!

[mateo]

I'm still waiting for Vince to "revolutionize" the QB position.

btw my boy Cutler looked pretty good, eh?

Mario....NICE GAME!!!

[MadMax]

Why do you think this? Why do you think VY - someone who was considered a project coming out of college, and whom most thought wouldn't even play his rookie year - has peaked in his 2nd year?


Because he's an Aggie! :p :D

[Master Baiter]

Because he's an Aggie! :p :D
Ha, not so much. I didn't go to college.

I just don't see why an early 1st round pick is a project. You expect them to contribute. A project means that they could go either way. NO ONE expected VY or RB or MW to go either way. If they fail, that is a huge blow.

[msn]

A project means that they could go either way.
Aaahhh; herein lies the difference. I'm not sure others who are using the word "project" mean that the pick could go either way. I believe they simply mean the pick will require development.

The whole "project" idea is goofy to me. Almost every guy who steps into the pro's needs "development". The guys who come in and immediately set the world on fire, even the top picks who do, are rare and celebrated.

[Hippieloser]

When did Reggie Bush ever make it rain.

[Master Baiter]

Aaahhh; herein lies the difference. I'm not sure others who are using the word "project" mean that the pick could go either way. I believe they simply mean the pick will require development.

The whole "project" idea is goofy to me. Almost every guy who steps into the pro's needs "development". The guys who come in and immediately set the world on fire, even the top picks who do, are rare and celebrated.
I agree that everyone needs development. VY and RB were supposed to be can't miss. Both seem to be closer to a miss than closer to a hit at this point. I can't see how anyone can say that MW has been less of a hit than either of VY or RB. He is having a great season so far while RB has been a huge disappointment and VY has been certainly less than stellar.