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ak47

11-07-2007, 09:29 PM

Just saw on ESPNEWS they sent him to the Phillies.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3099599

DieHard Rocket

11-07-2007, 09:33 PM

ORLANDO, Fla. -- The Philadelphia Phillies acquired reliever Brad Lidge from the Houston Astros in a five-player trade, a source told ESPN.com.

The Phillies sent outfielder Michael Bourn, pitcher Geoff Geary and minor leaguer Mike Costanzo to Houston, and received infielder Eric Bruntlett in addition to Lidge.

The teams scheduled an announcement Wednesday night at the general managers meetings in Orlando.

-----

Don't know anything about either of these guys...Bourn looks like a potential leadoff type. Geary like an average middle reliever...career 3.94 ERA isn't too bad though.

Oski2005

11-07-2007, 09:33 PM

Umm, what's the word on the guys we got back? I have to say, having Ed Wade's first trade be to the Phillies is really weird.

MadMax

11-07-2007, 09:33 PM

...AND GET MICHAEL BOURN!

There's your CF. Lee-Bourn-Pence

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3099599

ORLANDO, Fla. -- The Philadelphia Phillies acquired reliever Brad Lidge from the Houston Astros in a five-player trade, a source told ESPN.com.

The Phillies sent outfielder Michael Bourn, pitcher Geoff Geary and minor leaguer Mike Costanzo to Houston, and received infielder Eric Bruntlett in addition to Lidge.

The teams scheduled an announcement Wednesday night at the general managers meetings in Orlando.

thacabbage

11-07-2007, 09:34 PM

Farewell, Brad.

You were hated by many here, but even more than the Rockets championships, your stretch of dominance in the NLCS provided me with my greatest memory as a sports fan.

ak47

11-07-2007, 09:34 PM

Borun has good speed. He went to UH. He has good potential, good to see this deal get done.

MadMax

11-07-2007, 09:36 PM

Borun has good speed. He went to UH. He has good potential, good to see this deal get done.

i agree. this is the astros getting prospects..getting younger..getting quicker. that's a good thing.

Major

11-07-2007, 09:36 PM

...AND GET MICHAEL BOURN!

There's your CF. Lee-Bourn-Pence

Hey, we got Willy T back! :)

DOMINATOR

11-07-2007, 09:39 PM

is Costanzo a power hitting 3rd base prospect?

so uhhh whos closer?

Storm Surge

11-07-2007, 09:40 PM

but Bourn is black I don't see how that's possible

The Cat

11-07-2007, 09:40 PM

Taveras could only dream of having the plate discipline that Bourn has.

Anyway, thanks for everything, Brad. Truly one of the great guys in the game. The Astros seem to have gotten a very good return and hopefully they can make a run at Cordero.

rocketlaunch

11-07-2007, 09:42 PM

Costanzo last year in AA 27HR 86RBI he is also I believe 23

MadMax

11-07-2007, 09:42 PM

adding bourn is great...if they put cordero on top of that, they're off to a really nice start.

MadMax

11-07-2007, 09:42 PM

Costanzo last year in AA 27HR 86RBI he is also I believe 23

it would only be better if his first name was george

kaleidosky

11-07-2007, 09:44 PM

I'm a very big fan of Bourn. I watched him a lot last year when he started playing a decent amount, but then he got hurt and all..

Geoff Geary had a good season a couple of years ago I think.. and I think last year he was slightly down? Haven't looked at the stats, but that's what I recall (at least partly through the season last year) But if he recovers to the form of 2 years ago, that'd be great.

Overall, if this move is combined with signing Cordero...then HUGE grade A..

DOMINATOR

11-07-2007, 09:45 PM

so uhh...
Bourn
Burke ?
Berkman
Lee
Pence
Wigginton
Everett
JR Towles
P

Nick

11-07-2007, 09:46 PM

I'd stay within the organization and develop a closer... while Qualls should get the first crack at the job.

The lineup gets better... pitching gets worse (namely, the all-important bullpen depth).

But the Astros do add another potential Killer B.

kaleidosky

11-07-2007, 09:46 PM

so uhh...
Bourn
Burke ?
Berkman
Lee
Pence
Wigginton
Everett
JR Towles
P

for now...till we sign Castillo.. ;)

Tracy McIverson

11-07-2007, 09:50 PM

there is a god

jopatmc

11-07-2007, 09:51 PM

Wade is banking on Costanzo.

This kid came on at the end of the year in Double A. Young, power hitter. I like the risk. We were gonna have to shell out megabucks for Lidge.......for a big bag of question marks.

The Cat

11-07-2007, 09:52 PM

It should also be noted that this saves the Astros a lot of money for free agency as well.

It seems the Astros made an excellent value move here. Remember, at the deadline the rumor was that it would've taken Luke Scott and Chad Qualls both to land Bourn. Here, the Astros picked up Bourn and the best power-hitting prospect in the Phillies organization for Lidge. So, I think we all owe a lot to the Astros for not dealing Lidge when his value was at its lowest last offseason.

However, in terms of value in wins and losses, it completely depends on what the Astros can do in the free agent market for relievers. I hope they have bigger plans than Scott Linebrink...

speed star

11-07-2007, 09:54 PM

Is Sarfate ready for the MLB level?

Zac D

11-07-2007, 09:56 PM

Geoff Geary is proven mediocrity. I imagine he'll make the bullpen and fill something like the Borkowski-when-Garner-still-trusted-him-somewhat role.

Nick

11-07-2007, 09:56 PM

Is Sarfate ready for the MLB level?

As a 7th inning guy, yes.

Closer, no.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 09:57 PM

It should also be noted that this saves the Astros a lot of money for free agency as well.

It seems the Astros made an excellent value move here. Remember, at the deadline the rumor was that it would've taken Luke Scott and Chad Qualls both to land Bourn. Here, the Astros picked up Bourn and the best power-hitting prospect in the Phillies organization for Lidge. So, I think we all owe a lot to the Astros for not dealing Lidge when his value was at its lowest last offseason.
.

Scott is gone now too. He will be flipped for pitching help one way or another.

TMac#1

11-07-2007, 09:59 PM

Looks like the Phillies got jacked in this deal.

Hammer755

11-07-2007, 10:08 PM

Looks like the Phillies got jacked in this deal.

I don't see it that way. This looks like a pretty even deal from my perspective. I think Lidge will right himself getting away from Houston. Bourn doesn't impress me much. In his last 1,000 AB, he's been a .350/.370 OBP/SLG guy with good SB numbers - that's not a tremendously valuable commodity. Geary is a middling arm - not good, not bad. Constanzo intrigues me a bit. He was a bit old for AA last year, but IMO he should be a far better option in 2009 than Ty Wigginton.

When you consider the economics of the deal, this is a good trade for the Astros, but I think the Phillies get more talent, so it's a solid move for everybody involved.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:13 PM

I don't see it that way. This looks like a pretty even deal from my perspective. I think Lidge will right himself getting away from Houston. Bourn doesn't impress me much. In his last 1,000 AB, he's been a .350/.370 OBP/SLG guy with good SB numbers - that's not a tremendously valuable commodity. Geary is a middling arm - not good, not bad. Constanzo intrigues me a bit. He was a bit old for AA last year, but IMO he should be a far better option in 2009 than Ty Wigginton.

When you consider the economics of the deal, this is a good trade for the Astros, but I think the Phillies get more talent, so it's a solid move for everybody involved.

Two things, lidge has issues with homers, it will be interesting to see him pitch at CBP. Plus, the part that you are overlooking is bourn's defense in CF. That plus his speed and OBP skill is why they coveted him in july and wanted him now.

Jared Novak

11-07-2007, 10:14 PM

With trading away Lidge, Cordero will probably be target #1 for the Astros.

I hope they make a run at Castillo, but I've heard that the Astros still have yet to meet with his representatives.

Nice Rollin

11-07-2007, 10:14 PM

you cant get anything back for lidge

The Cat

11-07-2007, 10:17 PM

you cant get anything back for lidge

They just got the top power-hitting prospect in the Phillies organization and a leadoff hitter that would've cost both Luke Scott and Chad Qualls at the deadline. Want to try again?

clutch citizen

11-07-2007, 10:18 PM

Two things, lidge has issues with homers, it will be interesting to see him pitch at CBP. Plus, the part that you are overlooking is bourn's defense in CF. That plus his speed and OBP skill is why they coveted him in july and wanted him now.

Would you care to give a full report on Bourn? I remember his name linked to Astro trade rumors last season, but the asking price was too high, and he got injured.

How is his defense playing CF?...why was he placed in LF?

How is his offense?...I hope he's not like Adam Everette where his offense horrendous, but his defense keeps him in.

etc.

It would be greatly appreciated...thanks

studogg

11-07-2007, 10:18 PM

IMO, this puts us in a position to bring back Loretta to man second in a platoon with Burke. We have our leadoff hitter now and have solidified our outfield at all three positions and have hopefully upgraded our defense (I am concerned with Pence's arm in RF).

We now need to find a legit starter that is a number 2 or solid 3 (if that's even possible) and need to fill out our bullpen to make it a strength. Lord knows we'll need it.

Great move though. I've been done with David Carr err.. I mean Steve Francis err... I mean Brad Lidge for awhile now.

LongTimeFan

11-07-2007, 10:18 PM

They just got the top power-hitting prospect in the Phillies organization and a leadoff hitter that would've cost both Luke Scott and Chad Qualls at the deadline. Want to try again?

Isn't he a Phillies fan? :confused: Or maybe Mets.. can't remember!

Hammer755

11-07-2007, 10:19 PM

Two things, lidge has issues with homers, it will be interesting to see him pitch at CBP. Plus, the part that you are overlooking is bourn's defense in CF. That plus his speed and OBP skill is why they coveted him in july and wanted him now.

Lidge's HR numbers haven't been that bad. They just seemed to occur at very crucial times. That's obviously not a good thing, but it's not like he's been awful. But you're right, Citizen's Bank may magnify the issue.

What you say about Bourn is true, but he hasn't really showed any OBP skill in since A-ball in 2004.

studogg

11-07-2007, 10:19 PM

The Cat

11-07-2007, 10:19 PM

Isn't he a Phillies fan? :confused:

Mets.

Zac D

11-07-2007, 10:21 PM

How is his defense playing CF?...why was he placed in LF?

How is his offense?...I hope he's not like Adam Everette where his offense horrendous, but his defense keeps him in.

He was in LF strictly because Aaron Rowand was in CF, not because he's a bad CFer by any stretch.

He's a much better offensive player than Everett with regards to average, on-base percentage, and speed. I'll be floored if he doesn't bat leadoff on opening day.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:22 PM

Would you care to give a full report on Bourn? I remember his name linked to Astro trade rumors last season, but the asking price was too high, and he got injured.

How is his defense playing CF?...why was he placed in LF?

How is his offense?...I hope he's not like Adam Everette where his offense horrendous, but his defense keeps him in.

etc.

It would be greatly appreciated...thanks

Michael Bourn played LF last year because burrell is a butcher in the field and the phillies had a gold glover in rowand in CF.

He is a lot like willy T, incredible speed, not much power other than gap to gap, can track down balls other cf's can't dream of getting under. Will get a lot of infield hits, and create havoc on the basepaths, and is a threat to steal any time he reaches 1st base. A lot like a juan pierre offensively.

He also has enough plate discipline to bat leadoff. If they get castillo to play 2b in FA, those two at the top of the lineup will cause all sorts of problems for pitchers dealing with berkman/lee/pence. Think 100 combined steals between the two of them.

Nice Rollin

11-07-2007, 10:23 PM

They just got the top power-hitting prospect in the Phillies organization and a leadoff hitter that would've cost both Luke Scott and Chad Qualls at the deadline. Want to try again?

if that's the case, then the phillies are pretty dumb

can anyone post the numbers for this guy?

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:26 PM

IMO, this puts us in a position to bring back Loretta to man second in a platoon with Burke. We have our leadoff hitter now and have solidified our outfield at all three positions and have hopefully upgraded our defense (I am concerned with Pence's arm in RF).

burke isn't going to be in the plans at 2b. they want castillo, iguchi, or matsui for the speed/range factor. I agree loretta would be a fit as the starter batting 2nd but they want more speed offensively/defensively at the position.

Nice Rollin

11-07-2007, 10:26 PM

With trading away Lidge, Cordero will probably be target #1 for the Astros.

I hope they make a run at Castillo, but I've heard that the Astros still have yet to meet with his representatives.
cordero would be a nice pick up, but the astros better not get in a bidding war. i know how important closing games may be, but NEVER overpay for a closer (billy wagner)

The Real Shady

11-07-2007, 10:30 PM

See Purpura, it's not that hard to pull of a trade.

Nice trade for the Astros. It was time for Lidge to move on to another team, and I wish him the best. We get some nice players in return which is always a plus. Good job Ed!

The Cat

11-07-2007, 10:30 PM

if that's the case, then the phillies are pretty dumb

can anyone post the numbers for this guy?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/michael-bourn.shtml

.348 OBP, .378 SLG, 18 steals in limited Major League time (119 AB) this season.

Bobblehead

11-07-2007, 10:33 PM

Wow a GM not afraid of negotiating!!
Jason Lane and Brad Lidge GONE....FINALLY!!!!

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:35 PM

if that's the case, then the phillies are pretty dumb

can anyone post the numbers for this guy?

at double A:

.270 BA
29 doubles
27 homers
75 walks
157 k's

.368 OBP, .490 SLG=.858 OPS

OldManBernie

11-07-2007, 10:36 PM

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:39 PM

I like the infusion of speed at CF, but I wonder how aggressive would Bourn be on the basepath while batting in front of Berkman and Lee. Do you guys really expect him to get 50+ steals if he plays full time? I am feeling similar doubts I had when we acquried Roger Cedeno. Regardless, if the guy can score runs, then this is a good acquisition.

Yes I do. They are going after a speedy 2b in castillo/matsui and one with 20 steal ability in iguchi and all 3 would bat 2nd in the order. They will employ a lot of straight steals and hit and runs even with the best hitters up as these guys can distract a pitcher into giving berkman/lee meatballs to crush.

mokulen

11-07-2007, 10:40 PM

Wow, I thought Bourn would be unavailable since it seems they'll be losing Rowand to free-agency. I guess the chance to improve their bullpen was to good an opportunity to pass up.

Ottomaton

11-07-2007, 10:42 PM

if that's the case, then the phillies are pretty dumb

can anyone post the numbers for this guy?

http://www.gunsofaugust.net/cos.jpg

I would ignore the AFL stats.

Looking at a couple of the sites, Baseball America had him ranked #6 for the Phillies in 2005 and not in the top 10 last year so the shine has come off him a bit. For both of the last two years he has started horribly and turned it on late. A couple of Phillies sites thought he was being moved too fast so probably at least a full year at AAA. Baseball America did list him as the prospect for the Phillies with the most power.

One nice thing is he hits left handed. He also has nice size and appears to have a very good eye at the plate. That would seem to be a pretty rare combination. He split time his first year as a pitcher, which I assume means he has a nice arm.

LongTimeFan

11-07-2007, 10:45 PM

Refman

11-07-2007, 10:48 PM

This move was even smarter when you take into account that the Astros have a lot of available money for FAs with Bagwell and Clemens coming off the books, Bidge retiring, and Ausmus coming back at a reduced salary.

Rather than spend this money on Rowand or Torii Hunter, we got VALUE.

We can (hopefully) use that money in free agency on Castillo, Cordero, and a SP. Then we can trade Luke Scott and Chris Burke for another mid to back of the rotation SP.

Starting Lineup
CF Bourn
RF Pence
1B Berkman
LF Lee
2B Castillo
3B Wigginton
SS Everett
C Towles
P

Starting Rotation
Oswalt
FA
Backe
SP via trade
Wandy/Albers/Patton/Sampson
(you may be able to trade one of these guys in a package with a position player for Miguel Tejada) :)

This is starting to get very interesting. If Wade is able to make the moves I referenced above in FA, this should be a pretty good team next year.

MaxwellsTemper

11-07-2007, 10:48 PM

Great trade. Phillies got fleeced.

And I agree that I think Pence, at this point in his career, is better suited to hit in the #2 spot with his speed and ability to spray the field.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:49 PM

While I like this idea, I'm not too keen on Pence batting fifth.. I like his bat too much - I'd love him at the 2 spot.

well you could see pence 3rd, berkman 4th, lee 5th as well. scott is the odd man out, being moved for pitching eventually.

The lineup will be

1. bourn
2. 2B
3-5. a combo of pence/lance/lee
6. wigginton
7. everett
8. C

SmitingPurpleEm

11-07-2007, 10:49 PM

Michael Bourn is very very very very fast, and he seems to be a decent contact hitter. He has a lot of potential.

I think it was a good trade for us since our bullpen was garbage in the playoffs, and our starters are garbage (minus Hamels) so we need a strong bullpen.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:51 PM

This move was even smarter when you take into account that the Astros have a lot of available money for FAs with Bagwell and Clemens coming off the books, Bidge retiring, and Ausmus coming back at a reduced salary.

Rather than spend this money on Rowand or Torii Hunter, we got VALUE.

We can (hopefully) use that money in free agency on Castillo, Cordero, and a SP. Then we can trade Luke Scott and Chris Burke for another mid to back of the rotation SP.

Starting Lineup
CF Bourn
RF Pence
1B Berkman
LF Lee
2B Castillo
3B Wigginton
SS Everett
C Towles
P

This is starting to get very interesting. If Wade is able to make the moves I referenced above in FA, this should be a pretty good team next year.

Flip castillo and pence(castillo will not bat 5th) or go:

CF Bourn
2B Castillo
RF Pence
1B Berkman
LF-Lee
3B-Wiggy
SS-Everett
C-Towles/Ausmus
Pitchers spot

OldManBernie

11-07-2007, 10:51 PM

Yes I do. They are going after a speedy 2b in castillo/matsui and one with 20 steal ability in iguchi and all 3 would bat 2nd in the order. They will employ a lot of straight steals and hit and runs even with the best hitters up as these guys can distract a pitcher into giving berkman/lee meatballs to crush.

That's true. I guess at the very least, this gives us some options when we have to play small ball and score a run.

Geoff Geary is a good pick up considering we don't have much veteran depth in the bullpen with Wheeler and Lidge gone. I think he should be a serviceable arm. Hopefully Costanzo is ready for AAA ball next year, his BA is a bit low for that level, but I do like that he is a left-handed power bat.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:52 PM

While I like this idea, I'm not too keen on Pence batting fifth.. I like his bat too much - I'd love him at the 2 spot.

I don't disagree, but he will bat 3rd-5th on this team, considering the upcoming 2b acquisition.

Dr.Strangelove

11-07-2007, 10:53 PM

Great deal!
Very good young player who can patrol CF the way we need it to be.... defense up the middle and balance in the lineup.
I echo the kudos for Lidge and the organization on selling high.

htownbball

11-07-2007, 10:55 PM

i said we should get Bourn at the deadline...glad to see it got done. watched him during his UH days...kid is a gold glove center fielder, bank on that. he can cover ground like nobody's business and he gets great reads.

on costanzo, the guy is boom or bust. good power, but he strikes out a ton. he's struck out a ton ever since college, and he went to coastal carolina...dont expect him to be a starter in the bigs. i dont think we got full value for lidge, but the phillies system isnt that strong. i will say that costanzo is the closest to the majors in the phillies system.

i really dont see why we traded lidge for bourn and geary when we have josh anderson. hopefully we can move scott and anderson for some bullpen help.

as for our closer, it looks like qualls will take over. we've got a bunch of young electric arms that you got to see a glimpse of during september callups.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 10:55 PM

That's true. I guess at the very least, this gives us some options when we have to play small ball and score a run.

Geoff Geary is a good pick up considering we don't have much veteran depth in the bullpen with Wheeler and Lidge gone. I think he should be a serviceable arm. Hopefully Costanzo is ready for AAA ball next year, his BA is a bit low for that level, but I do like that he is a left-handed power bat.

I'm not saying they will be green lighted every time, but you don't stifle base stealers like bourn/castillo that much, you want them getting in a pitcher's head as much as possible.

LongTimeFan

11-07-2007, 10:58 PM

I don't disagree, but he will bat 3rd-5th on this team, considering the upcoming 2b acquisition.

You sound pretty confident in us landing a 2b! Why Towles after Everett though?

htownbball

11-07-2007, 10:59 PM

i believe if we do sign a 2B, we will trade burke and either anderson or scott for another arm.

jopatmc

11-07-2007, 11:00 PM

i believe if we do sign a 2B, we will trade burke and either anderson or scott for another arm.

Burke, Anderson, and Scott for Dontrelle!

BigTex

11-07-2007, 11:01 PM

Bourn killer B........great trade

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:02 PM

You sound pretty confident in us landing a 2b! Why Towles after Everett though?

Well I think the 7/8 spots will go based on who is "hotter" at the time, i'm just going by the experience factor right now.

As far as 2b goes, this move not only frees up lidge's 5-6 mil, but consider they can now use the 10 mil plus it would have cost on rowand or hunter for the 2b/pitching moves they want to make. And this is a solid 2b group with castillo, matsui(resurrected himself as a rockie) and iguchi, not factoring in loretta either. Plus they aren't going into next season with burke starting. They want a more proven option, preferably a great defender and speedy, thus the reason they like castillo the most.

OldManBernie

11-07-2007, 11:02 PM

i believe if we do sign a 2B, we will trade burke and either anderson or scott for another arm.

That won't get us much of an arm.

htownbball

11-07-2007, 11:03 PM

pence probably shouldnt be hitting 2nd, but he probably will.

we have been a wait and see type of offense, and if we dont get a big hit, we're pretty much done. bourn has insane speed, and we need to allow him to do his thing on the basepaths. if pence is hitting 2nd, it doesnt give bourn enough pitches to steal any bases because pence is a free swinger. we need to steal bases and manufacture runs. if pence can become a bit more patient and draw more walks, he and bourn can wreak havoc on the basepaths with their speed.

it wouldnt be a bad thing for him to hit 2nd, it just wouldnt allow our leadoff hitter to steal many bases. however, i guess having berkman and his patience hitting 3rd would somewhat make up for that.

Fatty FatBastard

11-07-2007, 11:03 PM

Here comes the pain, Phillies fans...

htownbball

11-07-2007, 11:05 PM

That won't get us much of an arm.

youre too quick to judge. more teams covet burke's youth and athleticism than you might think. he's shown glimpses, and he's a solid defender who can steal 20+ bases. he's in his prime right now, and he hasnt even been given a fulltime chance at his natural position. someone will be willing to give up something for him.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:05 PM

DaDakota

11-07-2007, 11:07 PM

Here comes the pain, Phillies fans...

They did ok the last time they got one of our closers.

DD

Rileydog

11-07-2007, 11:08 PM

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:09 PM

OldManBernie

11-07-2007, 11:09 PM

youre too quick to judge. more teams covet burke's youth and athleticism than you might think. he's shown glimpses, and he's a solid defender who can steal 20+ bases. he's in his prime right now, and he hasnt even been given a fulltime chance at his natural position. someone will be willing to give up something for him.

He'll be 28 by the start of next season, I don't think youth is on his side any more. I don't think he has the trade value that he had 2 or 3 years ago. On the other hand, I won't be opposed to keeping him on the roster to compete with our new 2b considering Castillo, Matsui and Iguchi are all 32 years old, and on the downside of their career probably.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:11 PM

Questions:

- were there rumours last year about BoSox offering Ellsbury plus others for Lidge? How legit? How does Bourne compare to Ellsbury

- what is the asking price for Dontrelle Willis. to me, he is target number 1. Far more important than a Castillo. That guy can flat out pitch and fall right behind Roy O as a 1 - 2 punch.

they can do both of those things as the 2b will come from FA, but I feel extremely confident they are getting a 2b via free agency. I'm guessing you are looking at say albers or patton plus scott for willis.

King of 40 Acres

11-07-2007, 11:12 PM

Ed Wade speaking about the trade from Chron.com

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LongTimeFan

11-07-2007, 11:14 PM

I'm guessing you are looking at say albers or patton plus scott for willis.

I would think it would take a helluva lot more than that, or this deal would've been done last week. While Patton was regarded as a good prospect, he didn't exactly blow people away in his brief stint up here. I can't see Patton/Scott being enough without another significant piece. (Burke/Anderson not being good enough)

OldManBernie

11-07-2007, 11:15 PM

they can do both of those things as the 2b will come from FA, but I feel extremely confident they are getting a 2b via free agency. I'm guessing you are looking at say albers or patton plus scott for willis.

I understand the concept of buying low, but is it for certain that Dontrelle will return to his old form? Also, would we be signing him for the long term if we do trade for him?

xiki

11-07-2007, 11:16 PM

Keith Law at ESPN insider called this a terrible deal by Wade, doesn't like anyone in the deal but Lidge. Believes Wade misread market for a reliever like Lidge.

I am disgusted.

htownbball

11-07-2007, 11:17 PM

bourn is a bit more athletic. faster (bourn can run a 6.35 60yd dash) and he's got a better arm than ellsbury (probably a 55-60 on the 20-80 scale, which is above average). they've got similar power, and if there is a difference, it is negligible, as i dont see either hitting more than 12 home runs anytime soon. ellsbury is probably a better hitter, but bourn is really electric out there. ellsbury will strike out less, but also walk less. bourn is seriously one of the best defenders ive ever seen.

Rileydog

11-07-2007, 11:18 PM

how legit were the lidge for Ellsbury rumors last year? and how does bourne compare to Ellsbury?

I looked up Ellsbury's stats -- he looks rather ubergodly with power, speed and average, etc. I faintly recall the Bosox news network (ESPN) saying that Ellsbury is one of the best young players in all of baseball.

And I don't think Albers/Patton/Scott is enough to land Willis.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:19 PM

Keith Law at ESPN insider called this a terrible deal by Wade, doesn't like anyone in the deal but Lidge. Believes Wade misread market for a reliever like Lidge.

I am disgusted.

Your first mistake is actually valuing his opinion. His opinion means nothing. Bourn is way more valuable than he thinks, then.

rhino17

11-07-2007, 11:21 PM

Bourn, a speedster that I've pushed often as a guy the Astros should acquire, will be the starting center fielder. The Astros are no longer interested in Torii Hunter and Aaron Rowand. But as the Chronicle reported on Tuesday, they are going to make a strong push for All-Star closer Francisco Cordero.

Brad Lidge is one of my favorite guys, but this was a trade that needed to be made. He needs a different place where they don't still blame him for the home run he gave up to Albert Pujols in Game 5 of the National League Championship Series.

The Astros need speed, defense and pitching. Heck, this trade and the payroll flexibility they have makes me think they have a real shot at acquiring Dontrelle Willis, whom they have inquired about.
chron

Dtrain would be GREAT

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:22 PM

xcrunner51

11-07-2007, 11:23 PM

youre too quick to judge. more teams covet burke's youth and athleticism than you might think. he's shown glimpses, and he's a solid defender who can steal 20+ bases. he's in his prime right now, and he hasnt even been given a fulltime chance at his natural position. someone will be willing to give up something for him.

Teams have to be skeptical when they know 2B is finally open for us and we're actively looking for someone else. He projects to 15-20 steals and 20+ homers, with a .290-.300 ba with a .340-.350 obp max. Those are great numbers for a 2B and if we really thought he'd reach those numbers we would not be looking elsewhere. at best we could get a decent prospect from maybe high A for him.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:24 PM

I would think it would take a helluva lot more than that, or this deal would've been done last week. While Patton was regarded as a good prospect, he didn't exactly blow people away in his brief stint up here. I can't see Patton/Scott being enough without another significant piece. (Burke/Anderson not being good enough)

I think it's enough to get discussion started. Willis has a big contract and had a horrid 2007. his value is not what it was pre 2007. And no way the astros trade for him unless they feel they could resign him.

Rileydog

11-07-2007, 11:24 PM

I was speculating on what the starting point of said offer would be, but the marlins aren't going to get as much as you think.

that's cool. If it's anywhere close to albers/patton/scott, we must pull the trigger. Willis has shown toughness and durability that we desperately need, and unless there are concerns with his arm, I'd target him number 1 priority. If we're serious about contending, we need a legit No2 starter.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:26 PM

that's cool. If it's anywhere close to albers/patton/scott, we must pull the trigger. Willis has shown toughness and durability that we desperately need, and unless there are concerns with his arm, I'd target him number 1 priority. If we're serious about contending, we need a legit No2 starter.

scott is gone, it just depends on the pitcher you get back. some team can use a cheap corner OF stick like him. Willis is one option(they would have gotten much more before last season), westbrook in cleveland could be another.

I don't expect luke to be on the OD roster.

Also this move may open up money for a short term decent money offer to astro killer Thomas Glavine.

Major

11-07-2007, 11:29 PM

that's cool. If it's anywhere close to albers/patton/scott, we must pull the trigger. Willis has shown toughness and durability that we desperately need, and unless there are concerns with his arm, I'd target him number 1 priority. If we're serious about contending, we need a legit No2 starter.

I think there are HUGE questions about Willis' arm. He threw a ton of innings at a young age, and each of the last three years, his numbers have gotten worse. ERA, Batting-average-against, WHIP, walks, strikeout rate, HR's allowed have all progressively gotten worse. I wouldn't touch Willis unless you want another Jennings disaster.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7133/career;_ylt=AoR_6VCo.D2ZOHjO9ijAQQGFCLcF

The Real Shady

11-07-2007, 11:29 PM

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:31 PM

I don't think Willis can be looked at as a legit #2 starter anymore. He's a crapshoot.

2007 Wandy Rodriguez ERA 4.58 > 2007 Dontrelle Willis ERA 5.17

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071107&content_id=2295530&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

Wade is not permitted to discuss Willis, since Willis is not a free agent, but multiple Major League sources told MLB.com the Astros are among the teams that are interested in making a deal for Willis and/or third baseman Miguel Cabrera.

The sources stressed, however, that the Astros appear to be unlikely to land either player.

"Houston just doesn't have a match unless they're willing to deal [Roy] Oswalt, which clearly they're not," one source said.

Florida/that source is on crack if they think willis gets them oswalt.

rhino17

11-07-2007, 11:35 PM

OldManBernie

11-07-2007, 11:39 PM

I think there are HUGE questions about Willis' arm. He threw a ton of innings at a young age, and each of the last three years, his numbers have gotten worse. ERA, Batting-average-against, WHIP, walks, strikeout rate, HR's allowed have all progressively gotten worse. I wouldn't touch Willis unless you want another Jennings disaster.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7133/career;_ylt=AoR_6VCo.D2ZOHjO9ijAQQGFCLcF

Willis was terrible last year, and had been on a downward trend for 2 years. However, the club is trying desperately to shore up the team while Oswalt, Lee and Berkman are in their prime. If they are going to gamble, Willis definitely has a big upside, and the price shouldn't be too steep. I am more worried that the Astros will sign him to a 3 year contract once the deal is made. If Willis doesn't come through, it will hurt us in the long term.

Fatty FatBastard

11-07-2007, 11:43 PM

They did ok the last time they got one of our closers.

DD

I think you don't know what Lidge's closing song was, do you?

DOMINATOR

11-07-2007, 11:45 PM

You sound pretty confident in us landing a 2b! Why Towles after Everett though?
typically in the NL your weakest hitter bats 7th. because if there is a guy on base there isn't going to be 2 outs so your 7th can bunt the man over then 8th hitter can knock him in. also if 8th batter gets on base with less than 2 out then your pitcher can bunt him over and you have the top of the order instead of stranding him with the weakest hitter then the pitcher.

hope that makes sense.

Jared Novak

11-07-2007, 11:52 PM

I read on ESPN Insider that the Yanks inquired about Jake Peavy. I know the Astros asked about him last season and Oswalt was really pushing for that trade since he and Peavy are really good friends.

IMO Peavy would be a great addition to the rotation, just don't know if he is available and if we have the right prospects/players to get him.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:54 PM

Major

11-07-2007, 11:55 PM

Jennings and willis are not even comparable. Jennings was never a good pitcher, Willis has always been pretty damn good

They are comparable in that you're going to pay far more for what you get than you should have. Jennings because he was a one-year wonder in the final year of his deal. Willis because he was overused and has been progressively getting worse, but is in enough demand to command a lot in return.

Willis hasn't "always" been pretty damn good. Last year, he wasn't just mediocre, but flat out bad. Otherwise, he had two damn good seasons and two pretty good seasons.

OldManBernie

11-07-2007, 11:57 PM

peavy or santana would cost pence i'd imagine.

Pence would only be the starting point, we would probably have to throw in either Albers or Patton along with another prospect.

DVauthrin

11-07-2007, 11:59 PM

Pence would only be the starting point, we would probably have to throw in either Albers or Patton along with another prospect.

well of course, but I was just giving a general idea.

tigermission1

11-07-2007, 11:59 PM

...AND GET MICHAEL BOURNE!

Any relations to this guy?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/tigermission1/bourne236233r.jpg

Frankly, I am pleasantly surprised they were able to get this much in return (good prospects, mainly). I would have settled for a cheese stake, or even a DVD copy of Rocky VI.

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 12:05 AM

They are comparable in that you're going to pay far more for what you get than you should have. Jennings because he was a one-year wonder in the final year of his deal. Willis because he was overused and has been progressively getting worse, but is in enough demand to command a lot in return.

Willis hasn't "always" been pretty damn good. Last year, he wasn't just mediocre, but flat out bad. Otherwise, he had two damn good seasons and two pretty good seasons.

Another thing is that his decline may be attributed to his change in mechanics. Here's a good article on it: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-d-trains-mechanics-a-video-analysis/

DOMINATOR

11-08-2007, 12:11 AM

Another thing is that his decline may be attributed to his change in mechanics. Here's a good article on it: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-d-trains-mechanics-a-video-analysis/
i've been saying that for awhile.

nWo34Life

11-08-2007, 12:12 AM

Here's Mark Berman's in-depth article w/ Brad Lidge on the trade:

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/Sports/Detail?contentId=4868146&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=6.1.1

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Closer Brad Lidge was traded by the Houston Astros to the Philadelphia Phillies along with infielder Eric Bruntlett on Wednesday night in the first deal of the general managers' meetings.

In exchange for Lidge and Bruntlett, the Astros got outfielder Michael Bourn, right-hander Geoff Geary and minor league third baseman Mike Costanzo.

The 30-year-old Lidge was 5-3 with 19 saves in 27 chances for the Astros last year. He struggled to close out games but held batters to a .218 average and averaged 11.8 strikeouts per nine innings.

"It's tough," Lidge said Wednesday night in an interview with Fox 26 Sports. "It still doesn't feel real. I know I've been traded but still doesn't feel real."

While Lidge admits he knew something like this could happen, he was still caught off guard.

"Of course I'm suprised," Lidge said. "I've been with the Astros since I got drafted in '98. They're the only team I know. The only organization I know. So I'm a little shocked for sure."

Lidge acknowledges he really doesn't have his arms around what has happened.

"I realized that going into the offseason this was a possibility," Lidge said. "So I can't say I'm overwhelmingly shocked. I'd just say I'm suprised and obviously I have a lot of stuff to get straightened out as far as my career and my future goes."

Philadelphia intends to move Brett Myers, who had been their closer, back into the starting rotation.

Bruntlett hit .246 with 14 RBIs last season, seeing time at shortstop, third base and the outfield.

Bourn batted .277 as a rookie this year with one homer, six RBIs and 18 steals, and Geary was 3-2 with a 4.41 ERA with the Phillies. Costano, 24, batted .270 with 27 homers and 86 RBIs at Double-A Reading.

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 12:18 AM

i've been saying that for awhile.

Sorry, I haven't been following the other Astros threads.

MiniMing

11-08-2007, 12:19 AM

I like Lidge, so I'm speechless.

DOMINATOR

11-08-2007, 12:22 AM

Sorry, I haven't been following the other Astros threads.
not a knock on you. i just wanted to feel smart ;)
oldmanbernie is a cool name BTW.

The Cat

11-08-2007, 12:29 AM

MiniMing

11-08-2007, 12:33 AM

If the Astros sign Castillo, they'll have a 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup who should both have OBPs above .350 (hopefully above .370 in Castillo's case)... both are very fast and both bat left-handed. They're certainly sacrificing pop, but I am pleased to see the emphasis on OBP and quality at-bats.

Isn't a Castillo a switch-hitter? That would be nice though, to have that same 1-2 type punch at the top of the lineup similar to the Mets when they had Castillo.

kaleidosky

11-08-2007, 12:35 AM

If the Astros sign Castillo, they'll have a 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup who should both have OBPs above .350 (hopefully above .370 in Castillo's case)... both are very fast and both bat left-handed. They're certainly sacrificing pop, but I am pleased to see the emphasis on OBP and quality at-bats.

and I'd think 2 lefties might put Pence..or maybe even Lee.. in the 3 spot so that they can't use a lefty on those 2 and then turn Berkman around too..

leroy420

11-08-2007, 12:37 AM

Crazy. I just got home and saw this. I think it's a great deal for both teams. The Phillies needed a closer to get Myers back in the rotation. The Philly fans will love Bruntlett if he gets a chance to play with them. The Astros get a speedy, top of the order, CF'er, a decent middle reliever, and a good power hitting 3B prospect. It's very hard to look at this in anything but a positive light.

Well done, Mr. Wade.

The Cat

11-08-2007, 12:38 AM

Isn't a Castillo a switch-hitter? That would be nice though, to have that same 1-2 type punch at the top of the lineup similar to the Mets when they had Castillo.

Yeah, he's a switch... but since the majority of pitchers are righties, he gets most of his at-bats as a lefty... that's what I meant.

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 12:38 AM

Isn't a Castillo a switch-hitter? That would be nice though, to have that same 1-2 type punch at the top of the lineup similar to the Mets when they had Castillo.

I'd be ecstatic if Bourn is anywhere as good as Reyes leading off.

Zac D

11-08-2007, 12:41 AM

Crazy. I just got home and saw this. I think it's a great deal for both teams. The Phillies needed a closer to get Myers back in the rotation. The Philly fans will love Bruntlett if he gets a chance to play with them.

That's the strange thing. I'm pretty sure Bruntlett is going to be better-liked here than Lidge will be.

Good thing he got some practice dealing with boos. I'm not sure Philly is the best situation for him, but he's proven he'll handle things with class regardless.

Baqui99

11-08-2007, 12:53 AM

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/breath/Faces_asthma/present_images/VIIB1.gif

So we pick up Jason Bourne and Costanza. Sounds like a great trade! I'll take it.

Seriously though, I'm glad we got some good young talent for Lidge. At the beginning of the 2007 season, we couldn't have traded him for a pack of Big League Chew.

htownbball

11-08-2007, 02:10 AM

bourn is seriously gonna be electric. you think willy t can play defense? this kid is willy with instincts. i saw him against LSU make the best defensive play ive ever seen, including pros. ball was a shot that looked like itd be gone, he sprinted back to the wall, leapt, and made the grab to rob the guy, who i believe was the late Wally Pontiff the 3B (RIP). anyone who's been to the UH field knows the fench there is no kiddy fence either. bourn really had to get up there. UH ended up winning the game in the bottom of the 9th...and i actually believe it was bourn who scored the winning run on a passed ball/wild pitch.

htownbball

11-08-2007, 02:18 AM

nevermind...my memory must be going. wasnt bourn that scored the winning run in that game...it was a doozy though. it was in 2002 so of course im not gonna remember everything

BigM

11-08-2007, 02:23 AM

i like lidge and i think he's still got dominant seasons ahead of him so i'm feeling a little apprehensive right now.

it seems like everyone loves bourn but i don't know enough about him to grade this trade. if this move is the beginning of getting cordero then one of the free agent 2nd basemen then i'll love this deal even before i realize how good bourn may be.

Uprising

11-08-2007, 02:28 AM

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSssssssssssssssssssssSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssssssssss

Just got back from Fast Eddies playing pool. I know I'm late to the party, but I'd like to give my little celebration.

Kerfeld

11-08-2007, 07:48 AM

The best part about this trade is that it means the Astros wont be overpaying for a Hunter or Rowand.

Thanks for the memories Brad.

juicystream

11-08-2007, 07:58 AM

The Astros have an American black guy on the team now.

I really just see him as a Willy T replacement, which is kind of what I saw in Josh Anderson. But this move does free us up to move Scott and/or Anderson in a deal. Neither are bigtime young players, but both have big league experience, and have shown the ability to play up here.

haven

11-08-2007, 07:59 AM

Wade was a bad GM in Philly and he will continue to be a bad GM in Houston.

Now we have tangible proof.

Groogrux

11-08-2007, 08:51 AM

Wade was a bad GM in Philly and he will continue to be a bad GM in Houston.

Now we have tangible proof.

So, what would you have done?

macalu

11-08-2007, 08:52 AM

has anyone said it?

Aceshigh7 faints.

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 08:53 AM

They did ok the last time they got one of our closers.

DD

so did we.....when Bidge hit that 9th inning HR off of Wags, the season turned around and we went to the WS

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 08:57 AM

I saw that this trade means that we will now target Cordero (makes total sense) AND enable us to trade for Dontrelle (not quite understanding how that enables us to do this but im all ears).

The Marlins dont need a 2B, thus Burke isnt going to help them. I suppose if they are willing to take Patton and maybe Josh Anderson then it may work. What is Dontrelle's contract status? Can we lock this guy up for 3 years or so?

Somewhere Timmy P is sitting in a Dunkikn Donuts saying "Why didnt I thnk of that.....oh well, time to make the donuts"

msn

11-08-2007, 08:57 AM

I absolutely love this trade. I also love Brad Lidge. Best of luck to him. I like Bruntlett a lot, too.

But I'd heard so many good things about Bourne. A top-of-the-order guy with a good OBP, good plate discipline, speed, and outstanding up-the-middle defense? Wow!

You have to give something to get something. Of course, I said that after the Jennings trade, too. So mebbe I'll be eating crow again in a few months. But first response on my part is "Yes!!! WOOOOHOOOOOOOO!"

If Wade then turns around and lands Cordero AND Castillo, he's the freaking new Hunsicker. No way he could pull that off.

msn

11-08-2007, 08:58 AM

so did we.....when Bidge hit that 9th inning HR off of Wags, the season turned around and we went to the WS
There's a great picture of that that's been posted here before.

MadMax

11-08-2007, 08:58 AM

I am disgusted.

of course you are.

Drewdog

11-08-2007, 09:00 AM

Wade was a bad GM in Philly and he will continue to be a bad GM in Houston.

Now we have tangible proof.

is the proof in here?

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/foodie/uploaded_images/jello-pudding_-701130.jpg

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 09:01 AM

The fact that Wade went back and got a guy he probably scouted/drafted i think is great...my vuess is that he doesnt think he overpaid at all for the guy....and probably thinks he stole Costanzo to boot. Good stuff Wade. Now go get us a #2 guy to put behind Roy.

msn

11-08-2007, 09:01 AM

is the proof in here?
That was freaking nasty looking.

Drewdog

11-08-2007, 09:02 AM

That was freaking nasty looking.

I know.... I was looking for Jell-O

Kinda looked like refried beans.

Nick

11-08-2007, 09:03 AM

msn

11-08-2007, 09:03 AM

I know.... I was looking for Jell-O

Kinda looked like refried beans.
Oh dude, change it back. The nasty crap was much more effective. :D

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 09:04 AM

Kinda looked like refried beans.

kinda looked like my shoes at Minute Maid 3 seconds after Pujols' ball hit the glass

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 09:06 AM

I really, really, REALLY hope they don't go and overpay for a guy like Cordero.

In my mind, the only closers you overpay for are the truly special guys... the Riveras, the Lidge in his prime, the Gagne in his prime... the guys that absolutely blow the competition away (not just merely get 3 outs at the end of the game).

Otherwise, I'd rather develop a closer from within... the Papelbon/Lidge/Wagner/Rivera route.

I agree....id like to have the guy but if its going to take more than 4-5 million per year (which i think is more than fair mkt value for a decent closer with one good year), then pass and see what other options we have. I think spendng the money on a starter that we can lock up for a few years is much more important.

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 09:17 AM

I agree....id like to have the guy but if its going to take more than 4-5 million per year (which i think is more than fair mkt value for a decent closer with one good year), then pass and see what other options we have. I think spendng the money on a starter that we can lock up for a few years is much more important.

My gut feeling tells me that Cordero will go for at least 9 million per season. I agree that we really ought to save the money for a decent #2 pitcher.

texanskan

11-08-2007, 09:20 AM

Wow I'm really happy about this move!

Bourn will be a big time gold glove caliber CF for the next 10 years. I saw this guy play at UH a bunch and he is one of the best outfielders I have ever seen on any level. I don't know much about this 3rd baseman we are getting but I sure hope we can develop this guy because we have nothing in the minors at third.

ok outfield we are set!

Bourn/Pence/Lee

Scott and Anderson backing them up with Lee coming out late when we are up.

infield for better or worse we are stuck with the left side of our infield next season I sure hope we get another second baseman in here and make Burke "win" a job and not get handed one. I'm happy with the young guy and Ausmus at catcher for atleast one season and now Lance can just stay at first every game.

What does this mean for Loretta/Lamb? I'm not sure I would still consider Loretta and Lamb in my plans and now it's time to get a pitcher.

D-Train, get it done!

MadMax

11-08-2007, 09:23 AM

My gut feeling tells me that Cordero will go for at least 9 million per season. I agree that we really ought to save the money for a decent #2 pitcher.

if that's the case, i do not want cordero.

No Worries

11-08-2007, 09:27 AM

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=456422
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/phi/stats/bycategory?cat=Batting&type=0

2007
105 G
119 AB
18 SB
1 CS
.348 OBP
.378 SLG
.277 AVG
.727 OPS

Full Name: Michael Ray Bourn
Born: 12/27/1982
Birthplace: Houston, TX
Height: 5'11" Weight: 180
Bats: Left
Throws: Right
College: Houston
MLB Debut: 07/30/2006

Nick

11-08-2007, 09:30 AM

The only thing that tempers my expecations about the Phillies prospect we got back is his ASTRO-nomical strikeout rate.

You don't normally start striking out less once you get to the big leagues...

msn

11-08-2007, 09:34 AM

if that's the case, i do not want cordero.
Agreed.

texanskan

11-08-2007, 09:38 AM

The only thing that tempers my expecations about the Phillies prospect we got back is his ASTRO-nomical strikeout rate.

You don't normally start striking out less once you get to the big leagues...

true but I bet our GM knows this guy let's just hope it's not a Purpura/Lane deal

Blake

11-08-2007, 09:44 AM

Hammer755

11-08-2007, 09:46 AM

I'm beating a dead horse, but I would prefer an OF of Lee/Pence/Scott to Lee/Bourn/Pence - I'm probably in the minority. That said, if they can turn Scott into a quality starter, overall it would be a good deal for the Astros.

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 09:48 AM

Okay, fellas. Just got the lowdown from a new employee that just moved here from Philly and is a diehard Phillies fan.

He doesn't know much about the prospect that we got.

He said that Bourn has great speed but is a terrible hitter that won't produce on a daily basis.

He also said Geary is a joke of a pitcher and that we got ripped off.

Take it for what it's worth, as he is a Philly native and they hate everyone.

However, it seems to me that we could have gotten more for Brad Lidge. Glad we traded him, but I don't like this deal, based on what I have read and heard.

but if we end up signing cordero as a result of unloading lidge....then the deal makes sense because, in essence, he becomes part of the trade

not to mention that Bourne is a guy who basically filled in late innings for burrell...and never really had a shot to play everyday

DonkeyMagic

11-08-2007, 09:49 AM

good thing they waited for lidges value to valley before trading him...2 years too late

Groogrux

11-08-2007, 09:50 AM

MadMax

11-08-2007, 09:52 AM

Okay, fellas. Just got the lowdown from a new employee that just moved here from Philly and is a diehard Phillies fan.

He doesn't know much about the prospect that we got.

He said that Bourn has great speed but is a terrible hitter that won't produce on a daily basis.

He also said Geary is a joke of a pitcher and that we got ripped off.

Take it for what it's worth, as he is a Philly native and they hate everyone.

However, it seems to me that we could have gotten more for Brad Lidge. Glad we traded him, but I don't like this deal, based on what I have read and heard.

I think it's funny that so many people here except for Aces tore Lidge apart all season and begged for a trade...

and now thinks that we could have gotten more for him! :)

If this Philly fan is judging Born solely off the 150 or so at bats he had last season, then he's missing it. Even amidst that, he batted .277 and got about base at about a .350 clip, in his first look at big league pitching.

More importantly...he's great defense up the middle. And we didn't have to spend a fortune to get it.

Blake

11-08-2007, 09:53 AM

Phillies fans at another board I frequent say this was a great trade for them.

As in we got hosed? that's what the philly guy in my office is saying. he was a 10 year phillies season ticket holder, and he was shocked that they gave so little for lidge's potential.

I'm kind of shocked that with only one big closer on the free agent market that we unloaded Brad so quickly.

Hopefully Bourn turns into Willie T part deaux

EDIT: MadMax, I didn't expect an all-star for Lidge. I know his value is down, as it should be. BUT, the current closer market could have dictated a better trade if we had waited and talked w/ other teams (I am assuming we didn't do a lot of this b/c the deal was done so quickly, but of course I could be wrong)

br0ken_shad0w

11-08-2007, 09:54 AM

Actually, I've heard Wade say they are going after Linebrink rather than Cordero.

As for this deal, it's a wait and see move. This means Luke Scott is on the out (ugh) so he'll probably be traded for something.

msn

11-08-2007, 09:55 AM

Hopefully Bourn turns into Willie T part deaux
Erm, I'm hoping for much more than that from him, especially with regards to plate discipline and defense.

Groogrux

11-08-2007, 09:56 AM

As in we got hosed? that's what the philly guy in my office is saying. he was a 10 year phillies season ticket holder, and he was shocked that they gave so little for lidge's potential.

I'm kind of shocked that with only one big closer on the free agent market that we unloaded Brad so quickly.

Hopefully Bourn turns into Willie T part deaux

EDIT: MadMax, I didn't expect an all-star for Lidge. I know his value is down, as it should be. BUT, the current closer market could have dictated a better trade if we had waited and talked w/ other teams (I am assuming we didn't do a lot of this b/c the deal was done so quickly, but of course I could be wrong)

Yeah, as in "good to see Ed Wade is still Ed Wade". I don't necessarily buy it.

DonkeyMagic

11-08-2007, 09:57 AM

the current closer market could have dictated a better trade if we had waited and talked w/ other teams (I am assuming we didn't do a lot of this b/c the deal was done so quickly, but of course I could be wrong)

I'm sure lidge was discussed with plenty of teams. Its no surprise that he was going to get dealt.

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 09:57 AM

I'm kind of shocked that with only one big closer on the free agent market that we unloaded Brad so quickly.

)

which 9th inning homerun into the crawford boxes would you like me to refference to remind why we did?

ROXRAN

11-08-2007, 09:57 AM

Great pick up,...Great choice for a starting CF considering everything...Good move...The outfield gets better defensive range and speed!

MadMax

11-08-2007, 09:57 AM

As in we got hosed? that's what the philly guy in my office is saying. he was a 10 year phillies season ticket holder, and he was shocked that they gave so little for lidge's potential.

I'm kind of shocked that with only one big closer on the free agent market that we unloaded Brad so quickly.

Hopefully Bourn turns into Willie T part deaux

i don't think lidge has near the trade value you guys do, apparently.

this is a guy who was moved in and out of the closer role all season. who performed far better as a setup guy than a closer. but who is being paid like a closer. why would anyone expect more than this?

Blake

11-08-2007, 09:59 AM

which 9th inning homerun into the crawford boxes would you like me to refference to remind why we did?

I am not saying that we should not have traded Lidge. I am all for trading him.

Perhaps I wasn't clear with my posts. I wanted Lidge to be traded. I just felt that with only one viable free agent closer on the market, we could have used that to our advantage and made a better trade.

I hope I'm wrong and Bourn turns out to be the CF solution and the others play well.

All I have to go on are stats and what the Philly fan in my office says.

EDIT: Max, I know Lidge is what he is, but a lot of teams (allegedly) think he still has the potential to be a dominant closer (I don't, personally). If that is indeed the case, it just seems like we could have received a better deal considering there were not good free agent closers available for teams to sign

Obviously I am not a GM and don't know what went on, I just feel like we rushed it.

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 10:01 AM

Justice take it for what its worth) is saying on 1560 that Qualls was who the Phillies actually asked for

MadMax

11-08-2007, 10:01 AM

All I have to go on are stats and what the Philly fan in my office says.

don't go on what he says...the stats can be found here:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/michael-bourn.shtml

msn

11-08-2007, 10:02 AM

which 9th inning homerun into the crawford boxes would you like me to refference to remind why we did?
Well, more than that: the repeated control issues late in games, the 6 million dollar price tag after a season with injuries and 8 blown saves (2nd in the NL). That, and the fact that he's still a pretty good closer and the fact that his trade value was higher this winter than last. Those all appear, at least to me, to be reasons the Astros dealt him.

MadMax

11-08-2007, 10:02 AM

Justice take it for what its worth) is saying on 1560 that Qualls was who the Phillies actually asked for

yeah, i just heard that. wow!

msn

11-08-2007, 10:03 AM

Justice take it for what its worth) is saying on 1560 that Qualls was who the Phillies actually asked for
1) The discussion began with Qualls--perhaps he wasn't enough to land Bourn?
2) Qualls is cheaper than Lidge. Perhaps the Astros were wanting to meet other needs (Castillo? Willis?)?

DonkeyMagic

11-08-2007, 10:04 AM

I am not saying that we should not have traded Lidge. I am all for trading him.

Perhaps I wasn't clear with my posts. I wanted Lidge to be traded. I just felt that with only one viable free agent closer on the market, we could have used that to our advantage and made a better trade.

I hope I'm wrong and Bourn turns out to be the CF solution and the others play well.

All I have to go on are stats and what the Philly fan in my office says.

EDIT: Max, I know Lidge is what he is, but a lot of teams (allegedly) think he still has the potential to be a dominant closer (I don't, personally). If that is indeed the case, it just seems like we could have received a better deal considering there were not good free agent closers available for teams to sign

Obviously I am not a GM and don't know what went on, I just feel like we rushed it.

2 assumptions....1 that people still see him as a viable closer. 2) that some teams think he can be dominant again. Astros have been watching him struggle for 2 years, its time to cut the cord.

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 10:04 AM

1) The discussion began with Qualls--perhaps he wasn't enough to land Bourn?
2) Qualls is cheaper than Lidge. Perhaps the Astros were wanting to meet other needs (Castillo? Willis?)?

my guess is that the astros wanted to unload the salary and head case...and take their shot w either qualls or cordero.

msn

11-08-2007, 10:05 AM

Obviously I am not a GM and don't know what went on, I just feel like we rushed it.
It took me by surprise, too. It's pretty different to get something done this early. This time last year, posters (not you) were making "get off his fat ass" remarks about Purpura. Of course, *no* GMs had done anything yet.

Oski2005

11-08-2007, 10:17 AM

There's no way I see the Astros getting Cordero, I think he'll sign for 4 or 5 years at 10 million somewhere.

The only thing I regret is that they didn't wait til after Cordero signed to try and move Lidge because that would have raised his value a bit. I guess the Astros front office is really really high on Bourn.

msn

11-08-2007, 10:21 AM

my guess is that the astros wanted to unload the salary and head case...and take their shot w either qualls or cordero.
I agree with you except for the "head case" remark. Lidge is a far cry from a "head case". For a head case, look no farther than Redding, Tim.

Drewdog

11-08-2007, 10:23 AM

It looks like a good deal on both sides. I like the fact that we got younger and faster.

Good luck to Lidge in Philly. He's needed a change of scenery since the end of 2005.

Major

11-08-2007, 10:29 AM

Erm, I'm hoping for much more than that from him, especially with regards to plate discipline and defense.

I'm not sure we should expect much more than Willy T. If you look at their last few years in the minors (Bourn doesn't have enough of a major league sample to say much there) - they were pretty similar. Bourn walks more (and strikes out a bit more), but Willy T has a much higher batting average. Both have minimal/no power and both steal bases at a similar clip. At the end of the day, Willy was getting on base at a 0.390 clip his last 2 years in the minors; Bourn was about 0.360.

Hopefully Bourn will be better, but at this point, there's not a lot to suggest it looking at their minor league numbers. With the major league numbers, Bourn has been better thus far - but 120 at bats is not a useful sample size (basically, a bit over a month of fulltime play).

kaleidosky

11-08-2007, 10:32 AM

this team could be ridiculously revamped if we get a speed guy at 2nd.

I mean, when was the last time we had 2 speed guys at the top of the lineup? Brian Hunter and Biggio? I really can't remember. Biggio and Derek Bell if he qualifies? Chuck Carr?

Regardless, we've had an aging Biggio at the top of the lineup (1 or 2) for the while, so whenever you decide he lost his "fast" status, that's when you start looking backwards for another fast guy at the top of the lineup.

So if this works out, the team will really have an entirely new direction/philosophy just by nature of the personnel. Cool idea.

leroy420

11-08-2007, 10:39 AM

At first glance, I was all for this. I'm now taking the wait-and-see approach. This trade cannot be viewed as a single event. I think it affects what happens the rest of the off season. I believe that is when we can truly start to judge this trade. If it leads to a more consistent closer, a top 1/2 of the rotation SP, a more youthful team (check), while adding prospects (check), then I can honestly say that this was a great deal.

I'm in the camp that thought Lidge would retain his form after knee surgery. I'm a little disappointed to see him go, but I believe it's for the best.

MadMax

11-08-2007, 10:40 AM

rrj_gamz

11-08-2007, 10:45 AM

MadMax

11-08-2007, 10:47 AM

Ok, something happened, and I'm ok with it...My fear is Brad will be lights out again in a new town...

But is this it? I like the pick up, but is that going to get us to the playoffs? Me thinks not...

it's November 8. :D i'm guessing this isn't it.

i'm fine with lidge being lights out somewhere else. i just don't think he was gonna be that with us.

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 10:47 AM

that's a big part of why i like this trade. because it at least opens up opportunities to pursue.

Yup... by freeing salary early on in the game, we have a lot more flexibility in FA or trades. If Drayton is willing to spend 90M this season, we now have 15-20M to spend, which can fill in a lot of those gaps.

Nero

11-08-2007, 10:49 AM

Don't know anything much about these new guys, really, but I would like to say that it will be nice, at least for a while anyway, to enter a 9th inning with a lead and feel some emotion other than dread.

RocketManJosh

11-08-2007, 10:50 AM

I hope Brad is really successful in Philly. He needed a change of scenery so I'm not going to feel bad about this trade one bit if he is very successful. It wasn't going to happen here in Houston.

Ric

11-08-2007, 11:01 AM

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 11:12 AM

i think everyone's forgotten lidge has been consistently inconsistent these past two years and that, stretches of dominance here and there aside, he hasn't been lights for a *season* since 2005, and is arb-eligible after making $5+M this year and a FA after next season.

and some of you have the gall to declare the astros could have gotten more than an up-and-coming CF/lead-off hitter (one of, if not our biggest need) and a 3b prospect, 24 years of age, with power which we haven't had since ken caminiti in 1964 -- both of whom, by the way, we control for the next 3 and 4 years, respectively?

wow. some of you will simply never be satisfied.

it's a tremendously promising trade with nothing but upside. the astros now have 4 legit everyday prospects on their 40-man: pence, towles, bourn and can'tstandyo - doubling the # they had this time last year.

I'm happy with the trade, but you cannot compare Costanzo to Caminiti. Costanzo may not be good enough to handle the 3b position, while Caminiti is arguable the best defensive 3b of his generation (at least in my POV). From what I've read on Costanzo, he doesn't have the skills to play 3b, and seriously struggles against LHP. When it's all said and done, I think Costanzo is a 1b platoon player who will be used as trade bait in the future.

Ric

11-08-2007, 11:16 AM

I'm happy with the trade, but you cannot compare Costanzo to Caminiti.
i didn't. i said he was the best *since* caminiti; ie we haven't had one of any note in more than a decade.

msn

11-08-2007, 11:16 AM

Hey Ric, were you on vacation? I've been checking for new articles over at HPF and missing your commentary here.

msn

11-08-2007, 11:16 AM

i didn't. i said he was the best *since* caminiti; ie we haven't had one of any note in more than a decade.
Phil Nevin and that 30-year-old in Round Rock beg to differ. (just kidding)

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 11:19 AM

i didn't. i said he was the best *since* caminiti; ie we haven't had one of any note in more than a decade.

uhh... morgan ensberg maybe?

Curly

11-08-2007, 11:20 AM

Just saw on ESPNEWS they sent him to the Phillies.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3099599

With Biggio retiring, you knew we would have to bring in another "B".

Joe Joe

11-08-2007, 11:29 AM

I think it is a great move on Philly's standpoint, unless Costanzo develops into a quality starting 3B. Lidge is the most talented player in deal, but also the most costly.

For the Astros, it will depend on how well they use the money from Lidge (hoping for Castillo), on if Bourn can continue to have a high OBP, or Costanzo develops very well. I've got no problems with Qualls closing, so I really like this deal. The Astros do need to get another setup guy, though.

EvaRocketsLuv

11-08-2007, 11:31 AM

I am excited about this trade. Closers are vastly overrated (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/forbes_van_riper_myth_of_the_closer/) to begin with, and as several posters have stated, Lidge hasn't been "lights out" consistently since 2005. He only has one-and-a-half pitches he can throw in the majors -- meaning, two pitches when he can locate the slider, but just the fastball when he can't (allowing hitters to sit on the fastball and send it into orbit, e.g. Pujols). Apparently all his efforts to learn a curve or some other pitch have failed, which seems odd considering he was originally drafted as a starter. He has a bad injury history too. Bleh. I feel bad for trashing the guy, considering some of the memorable strike-out-the-side innings I've enjoyed from him, but it was time to get rid of him. Considering all factors -- talent, youth, cost, value of a CF over a closer -- I think we got the best end of the deal for sure. Not even close.

Ric

11-08-2007, 11:37 AM

Hey Ric, were you on vacation? I've been checking for new articles over at HPF and missing your commentary here.
thanks - no; just busy. lots going on personally - all good. hpf is... well, hpf is, for right now. more likely coming very soon.

uhh... morgan ensberg maybe?
good call; he actually projects VERY favorably to ensberg, power-wise.

The Cat

11-08-2007, 11:38 AM

Here's the Baseball Prospectus take:

Although one should maintain a healthy dose of skepticism about what Ed Wade’s tenure will mean for the Astros, the former Philly GM has gotten the better of the current one in the just-announced Brad Lidge trade.

The problem is not really with Lidge’s performance. Although he was shuffled into and out of the Astros’ closer role by a trigger-happy Phil Garner, panicking a lot his rotisserie baseball owners in the process, he came away with a 3.15 QERA and 11.8 strikeouts per nine innings. That should qualify him as one of the 30 best relievers in baseball for 2008, and quite possibly in the upper half of that group. In other words, while Lidge has undoubtedly deteriorated some from his 2004-2005 peak, that’s still a closer-worthy performance.

But Lidge will also become a free agent 11 months from now, with this year’s salary to be determined by the arbitration process. Lidge made $5.35 million last year; since salaries tend to ramp up with each year of arbitration, he can probably expect something more like $6 million this year.

What would it cost to acquire a comparable talent — say Francisco Cordero — in the free agent market? There weren’t any elite closers available in last winter’s market, although among the pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey group of pitchers with some recent closer experience, Eric Gagne made $6 million, Octavio Dotel and Keith Foulke made $5 million, and Joe Borowski made $4.25 million. Cordero will be seeking — and will probably receive — something closer to B.J. Ryan money, which should mean about $10 million per season over anywhere from 3-5 years. So the Phillies are probably getting a $4 million savings for 2008. Lidge is also solidly in the range of Type A free agents, so the Astros would also get a couple of draft picks if and when he leaves.

Is that worth giving up two good prospects in the form of Michael Bourn and Mike Costanzo? No, and it isn’t close. Costanzo is not a Grade-A prospect, but he had a very solid year in Reading, where his 27 home runs placed him second in the Eastern League. That translates to a .263 EqA in our hot-off-the-presses Davenport Translations, indicating that he could be a major league average third baseman right about now, probably along the lines of a Steve Buechele type of player, which would be very encouraging for a 24-year-old.

Bourn, meanwhile, has less upside but more locked-in value, and by all signs is poised for a 3-5 year run as a league-average center fielder. Projected by PECOTA for a .271/.346/.401 performance prior to the start of the season, he spent the entire year on the Phillies bench, essentially matching his projection with a .277/.353/.378 batting line over 119 at-bats. Although those batting numbers are superficially unimpressive, consider that the average National League center fielder posted a .273/.336/.426 batting line last year, which is highly comparable in value to Bourn’s. Bourn also accumulated 18 stolen bases in 19 attempts, a remarkable record for a player that was usually coming in cold as a pinch-runner in obvious stealing situations. Essentially, he’s the player that Juan Pierre is supposed to be.

Bourn has five more full seasons until he hits free agency, and Costanzo has six. All together, that’s 11 seasons of below-market performance that the Phillies traded away … in exchange for one season of below-market performance from Lidge.

Yes, Lidge is a good fit for the Phillies, and he’ll make them better in 2008. But the price was not right.

https://baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=665

rhester

11-08-2007, 11:42 AM

Nice move.

Just a couple more good moves, get another quality starter, another set up man and you can say their offseason matched the Rockets.

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 11:47 AM

good call; he actually projects VERY favorably to ensberg, power-wise.

Ensberg had similar power in the AA with a much better batting average and slugging percentage along with less SOs, although Ensberg was one year older at AA. Ensberg was also a solid defender at 3b unlike Costanzo. I think Costanzo will make it to the majors, but he won't be anything special unless he figures something out in the minors. IMO, Ensberg was a much better prospect than Costanzo. However, much like any other prospect, who really knows how Costanzo will eventually turn out.

studogg

11-08-2007, 12:21 PM

Ensberg had similar power in the AA with a much better batting average and slugging percentage along with less SOs, although Ensberg was one year older at AA. Ensberg was also a solid defender at 3b unlike Costanzo. I think Costanzo will make it to the majors, but he won't be anything special unless he figures something out in the minors. IMO, Ensberg was a much better prospect than Costanzo. However, much like any other prospect, who really knows how Costanzo will eventually turn out.

IIRC, Ensberg was an A level prospect for much of his early minor league career. However, his slowed progression through the ranks pulled off some of the sizzle that was never really recaptured until his fluke season with the 'stros.

There may be more to George, but we won't know until he plays AAA for us. Plus, it's not like he has to take an all-star's place on the big team.

side note: years ago, adam wexler covered astros player development in a local small time paper. His opinions were generally on the money. He was even had a fairly low evaluation of Ensberg while many people were still quite high on him. does anyone know if wexler still does this?

htownbball

11-08-2007, 12:30 PM

dont be too high on costanzo. he's terrible at defense and he strikes out a ton. he was a throw in. i wouldnt bet on him turning into much of anything. the upside is there, but he's a second tier prospect at best

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 12:31 PM

IIRC, Ensberg was an A level prospect for much of his early minor league career. However, his slowed progression through the ranks pulled off some of the sizzle that was never really recaptured until his fluke season with the 'stros.

There may be more to George, but we won't know until he plays AAA for us. Plus, it's not like he has to take an all-star's place on the big team.

side note: years ago, adam wexler covered astros player development in a local small time paper. His opinions were generally on the money. He was even had a fairly low evaluation of Ensberg while many people were still quite high on him. does anyone know if wexler still does this?

Here are his minor league stats: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/E/morgan-ensberg.shtml

He really took off in his first season in AA at age 24, one year later than Costanzo, but with much better stats all around.

Here are Costanzo's stats:
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/mike-costanzo.shtml

Granted, analyzing minor leaguers requires more than just reading a player's stats, but statistically speaking, Ensberg was arguably a better prospect. However, I'd be quite happy if Costanzo develops into an Ensberg-type player with more consistency. I remember how frustrating it was to watch Ensberg try out a new batting stance every time he steps up to the plate.

Ottomaton

11-08-2007, 12:33 PM

Regarding the defense, Morgan wasn't exactly free of errors in AA (27 in 2000 at Round Rock). And I understand that most of the current decent/good MLB 3rd basemen had problems at one point in the mid/low minors.

If you look at Costanzo's lefty vs. righty splits, as it stands he is very productive against righties and incredibly pathetic against lefties. It is not unnatural for left handed batters to take a long time to learn how to hit lefties, much more than right handers on right handers (because there are so many fewer to see).

Also it will be interesting to me to see if, once he repeats at the same level for a second year in a row, whether his poor first halfs is really a matter of adjusting to a new level whether he is just an insanely slow starter.

Also, one should note that the Texas League is considered much more of a hitter's league than the Eastern League.

From what I understand, he really has some extended second half streaks where he has looked like he would develop into a legitimate MLB everyday player. I don't think his flat, non-split statistics quite tell the whole story.

RyanED

11-08-2007, 12:35 PM

Just saw on ESPNEWS they sent him to the Phillies.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3099599

FINELy!!! Brad LIge is FIRED! :cool: :eek: DErreck Weeler shood bethe new closeing picher?v :confused: :mad:

studogg

11-08-2007, 12:36 PM

Here are his minor league stats: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/E/morgan-ensberg.shtml

He really took off in his first season in AA at age 24, one year later than Costanzo, but with much better stats all around.

Here are Costanzo's stats:
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/mike-costanzo.shtml

Granted, analyzing minor leaguers requires more than just reading a player's stats, but statistically speaking, Ensberg was arguably a better prospect. However, I'd be quite happy if Costanzo develops into an Ensberg-type player with more consistency. I remember how frustrating it was to watch Ensberg try out a new batting stance every time he steps up to the plate.

I sure didn't remember Ensberg's ascent being that rapid. I must be getting him mixed up with someone else.

Raven Lunatic

11-08-2007, 12:36 PM

This trade is ****in' huge.

Seriously, I don't think Lidge would have ever turned it around here. He might in another city, but he needed to be traded. Now, whether or not we could have gotten more for him, I don't know. I don't put much stock in Philly fans thinking they got the better end of this deal, because I imagine few of them realize, yet, what kind of frustration Lidge will bring to that team. I hope Bourn can be the Juan Pierre type player he projects to be.

emjohn

11-08-2007, 12:39 PM

NJRocket

11-08-2007, 12:42 PM

I would have much preferred a rotation-worthy starter for Lidge rather than a couple of position players whom no one is sure what to expect from. Did we get two rocks for the lineup, or do we have two more Jason Lanes that we can't figure out?

Evan

im sure the astros would have liked a decent starter as well.....but Lidge doesnt carry that much value

for the Phillies, if they dont see Bourne and Costanzo as their futures, then this deal could blow up on them in terms of LIdge sucking and it STILL wont kill them .....dont forget, Myers is more than cpable of remaining their closer should Lidge falter....hell, they could end up using Lidge as the setup guy too

htownbball

11-08-2007, 12:50 PM

to me, the telltale sign that costanzo wont amount to much are the strikeouts. he struck out ALOT even in college, and he hasnt been improving his k rate. he can draw walks, but he's gonna be a guy who k's worse than once every 4 at bats.

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 12:58 PM

...If you look at Costanzo's lefty vs. righty splits, as it stands he is very productive against righties and incredibly pathetic against lefties. It is not unnatural for left handed batters to take a long time to learn how to hit lefties, much more than right handers on right handers (because there are so many fewer to see).

Also it will be interesting to me to see if, once he repeats at the same level for a second year in a row, whether his poor first halfs is really a matter of adjusting to a new level whether he is just an insanely slow starter.

Also, one should note that the Texas League is considered much more of a hitter's league than the Eastern League.

From what I understand, he really has some extended second half streaks where he has looked like he would develop into a legitimate MLB everyday player. I don't think his flat, non-split statistics quite tell the whole story.

If that's the case, then I'll look forward to seeing how he does next year. I'm not a fan of Wigginton, and it'd be great to have a replacement ready by 2009.

macalu

11-08-2007, 01:19 PM

FINELy!!! Brad LIge is FIRED! :cool: :eek: DErreck Weeler shood bethe new closeing picher?v :confused: :mad:
are you sure you're posting under the correct moniker this time?

wrath_of_khan

11-08-2007, 01:37 PM

Wade's definitely not shy about talking to the press ...

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071108&content_id=2295942&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

Astros still looking to deal
11/08/2007 1:31 PM ET
By Jim Molony / MLB.com

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Now that he's acquired the center fielder the Astros had been seeking with the trade for Michael Bourn, is Houston general manager Ed Wade finished dealing?
Don't bet on it.

"I'm leaving this meeting right now with a couple of clubs who came up and have expressed some interest in continuing discussions with us on some of our guys to see if we have the right fit," Wade said Thursday afternoon as he prepared to leave the General Managers Meetings at the Grand Cypress Resort. "If we do, we'll move on it sooner rather than later. I'm not one of those guys that sort of tries to play one opportunity against another, because I've seen so many of those deteriorate over time."

Wade cannot comment on players with other teams, but multiple Major League sources previously confirmed the Astros have contacted the Florida Marlins regarding left-hander Dontrelle Willis.

The Astros are considered extreme long shots to pull off a trade for Willis. And yet the acquisition of Bourn, acquired from Philadelphia late Wednesday night along with reliever Geoff Geary and third-base prospect Michael Costanzo for closer Brad Lidge and infielder Eric Bruntlett, means the Astros could perhaps be persuaded to deal one of the better prospects, center fielder Josh Anderson, as part of a package for pitching.

"I don't think Josh should look at this as anything other than the club's trying to get better, and where he is at in his development process right now he needs to continue to get better," Wade said. "[He needs to] do what he can do, let us try to make the right evaluation going forward. Knock our socks off.

"He's a good developing player and obviously did a really good job when given the opportunity last year. He's got to come into camp prepared to win a job. Luke Scott is still an element on our club that brings solid offense to our team. [Reggie] Abercrombie, whom we took on a waiver claim, has to come in and show what he's capable of doing. We may still add more outfield depth during the course of the offseason."

Lidge's departure also means the Astros will need a closer, and Wade confirmed during the week the Astros have made contact with Francisco Cordero's agent, as well as the representatives for relievers Scott Linebrink and Jeremy Affeldt and starting pitchers Tom Glavine and Jon Lieber.

The Astros are also pondering potential second-base options and have contacted the agents for Luis Castillo and Kaz Matsui.

The closer is not necessarily next on Wade's winter shopping list.

"It's obviously something we'd like to try to address if we could. I'm not at a point of sort of prioritizing a checklist," Wade said. "We have things we want to get done and at least explore, and that would be on that list. If it works out that we don't get something done, then obviously we're going to have to count on Chad [Qualls] to pick up the back end and fill in around him."

Bourn's arrival dropped the Astros out of the running for free agent center fielders Torii Hunter and Aaron Rowand, and in moving Lidge and Bruntlett the Astros are suddenly not on the hook for two arbitration-eligible players.

"We've created more flexibility in the deal where whatever Brad's arbitration number would have been comes off and the only arbitration-eligible player we acquired in that deal was Geoff Geary, [and] relatively speaking the numbers aren't even close," Wade said. "At the same time, our feeling was payroll flexibility wasn't, and still isn't, an issue for us."

Cordero, whose 44 saves were the third most in the Major Leagues behind Arizona's Jose Valverde (47) and Cleveland's Joe Borowski (45), will become one of the most sought-after free agents on the market if Milwaukee doesn't re-sign the right-hander before Nov. 13.

Wade, however, won't speculate as to which avenue (free agent, trade or in-house) the Astros are most likely to take in pursuit of a closer.

"At this stage, I think it's all open avenues," he said. "Whichever way, there is a way. We're not the only club out there, whether it's a closer market or adding more offense or starting pitching, we're not the only club out there. There are a lot of issues beyond the superficial aspects."

In center field, the trade route made the most sense for the Astros. That may not be the case with the closer or starting pitching.

"On the free agent market, it's going to be one of those eye-of-the-beholder type of things, and realistically whether a thing makes long-term sense," Wade said. "A guy that makes absolute sense for 2008, the reality is that most of the guys who make absolute sense for 2008 are out there in the three-, four- or five-year environment, so you have to weigh that against everything else.

"That was part of the process with the center field situation. You don't walk past the possibility of having a Torii Hunter or an Aaron Rowand, but you have to balance that against what the long-term commitment is. How much money are you going to allocate to your outfield over an extended period of time? It may not have the early sort of sex appeal or whatever of a deal, but our job is to try to put the best team on the field that made the most sense, and it makes the most sense to try to go with the young guys."

Wade likes Costanzo, who hit .270 with 27 home runs and 86 RBIs in 137 games for the Double-A Reading Phillies in 2007. The 2007 Eastern League All-Star ranked second in the Eastern League in home runs and third in runs scored (92).

"While we were waiting [for the medical reports to complete the trade], I said, 'All right, if we get Costanzo, who's a better left-handed power bat in [Houston's Minor League] organization?' " Wade said. "The answer is nobody."

Wade scouted the third baseman at Double-A this year while working for the Padres.

"He's probably got average range, but he catches what he gets to [and has] a well-above average and accurate throwing arm," Wade said. "At best he's an average runner. Big strikeout numbers, he's got holes to close up, but he's got a pure power bat. You've got a guy who hit 27 home runs at Double-A, that's a bat that will play in the big leagues. There are very few of those kind of guys."

This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

Hammer755

11-08-2007, 01:58 PM

If Wade can turn Josh Anderson into a solid starting pitcher, I will change my tune about him. I try not to speak in absolutes when it comes to player projections, but I feel as strongly about Anderson as humanly possible. He will never be a major league starting outfielder and if he is, there is a manager that is either out of options or is making a horrible mistake.

Mr. Clutch

11-08-2007, 02:02 PM

What are we going to do with Luke Scott? His obp is so high, we must be able to get SOMETHING for him!

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 02:06 PM

What are we going to do with Luke Scott? His obp is so high, we must be able to get SOMETHING for him!

I see nothing wrong with keeping him on reserve.

The Cat

11-08-2007, 02:12 PM

I see nothing wrong with keeping him on reserve.

He's far too strong of a trade asset to be worth keeping as a backup. Especially on this team... barring injuries, a backup outfielder who can't play center won't get much playing time when Lee and Pence are the starters. This team has too many holes to afford that luxury.

RocketFan007

11-08-2007, 02:19 PM

What are we going to do with Luke Scott? His obp is so high, we must be able to get SOMETHING for him!

If we're talking to the Marlins about Dontrelle, I guarantee you he's part of the deal.

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 02:23 PM

He's far too strong of a trade asset to be worth keeping as a backup. Especially on this team... barring injuries, a backup outfielder who can't play center won't get much playing time when Lee and Pence are the starters. This team has too many holes to afford that luxury.

Even as the 4th outfielder with nobody injured, Scott would still accumulate about 200 ABs, if every OF takes 15 games off a season (Pence would play CF if Bourn is resting). For pinch hitting purposes, you can probably add 50-75 ABs to that number. He is also a nice insurance policy to have in case Bourn doesn't turn out to be good, or an OF is injured for an extended period. I think having an adequate 4th OF is a necessity and not a luxury.

Ric

11-08-2007, 02:29 PM

He's far too strong of a trade asset to be worth keeping as a backup.
i think you're overvaluing luke scott. this is GM#2 to more or less give up on him. the guy's 31, a terrible defender... if they could turn him into a decent bullpen arm, i think they'd do it in a second. otherwise, he's throw-in fodder for a bigger, more complex deal, imo.

The Cat

11-08-2007, 02:33 PM

i think you're overvaluing luke scott. this is GM#2 to more or less give up on him. the guy's 31, a terrible defender... if they could turn him into a decent bullpen arm, i think they'd do it in a second. otherwise, he's throw-in fodder for a bigger, more complex deal, imo.

He's 29, and by all available metrics (as well as my own eyes), an adequate defender.

htownbball

11-08-2007, 02:36 PM

i think we're keeping josh anderson, whether it be in AAA or as a backup. if we are looking for a 2B, and Burke is traded, we need someone to come off the bench to pinch hit and pinch run.

Ric

11-08-2007, 02:49 PM

He's 29, and by all available metrics (as well as my own eyes), an adequate defender.
you're right; he'll be 30 this june. so what would you give up for a career back-up 30-year old OF who has fallen out of favor with not 1 but 2 different regimes?

and he's a terrible defender. sorry, he is. certainly below average.

The Cat

11-08-2007, 02:58 PM

you're right; he'll be 30 this june. so what would you give up for a career back-up 30-year old OF who has fallen out of favor with not 1 but 2 different regimes?

and he's a terrible defender. sorry, he is. certainly below average.

Based on what? I've watched every game of his the past two seasons in the majors. I've looked at all the metrics. To counter every personal observation and statistic, I'm going to need something more than "sorry, he is."

What would I give up for a young, club-controlled bat who has succeeded in every opportunity he's been given (majors and minors) the last two seasons, posting a 1.047 OPS and a .855 OPS? Add in that he's under 30, plays capable defense, the reputation of those two GMs in question, and the fact that the Astros were focused on a CF regardless of who was in right... and I'd give quite a bit.

Nick

11-08-2007, 03:03 PM

If Scott wasn't playing on a team that has a $16 million dollar/year player in left, and a young phenom in right, he'd likely be an adequate enough starter.

msn

11-08-2007, 03:07 PM

Re: Luke's defense, I haven't heard anyone decry anything but his arm. I've heard good things about his routes and his range (not stellar but solid range). Good judge of the fly ball, good sense in the field when there are runners on base. All I've ever heard people really criticize is his arm. This all from memory, though; no links.

Ric

11-08-2007, 03:42 PM

Based on what?
personal observation and anecdotes from those who watched him coming up in austin.

What would I give up for a young, club-controlled bat who has succeeded in every opportunity he's been given (majors and minors) the last two seasons, posting a 1.047 OPS and a .855 OPS? Add in that he's under 30, plays capable defense, the reputation of those two GMs in question, and the fact that the Astros were focused on a CF regardless of who was in right... and I'd give quite a bit.
hold on - young? he's "under 30" for the first 2.5 months of next season. from june 25, or whatever, on, he's 30. and he's NEVER been an everyday starter. can you think of a player that suddenly "got it" that late in his career and then sustained it on a consistent basis?

I'd give quite a bit.
such as what? a top of the rotation starter? a young middle infielder that's ready to play everyday? a proven, experienced closer? those are the astros' remanining priorities - which do you think luke scott can fetch?

DoitDickau

11-08-2007, 03:47 PM

personal observation and anecdotes from those who watched him coming up in austin.

What qualifies you to make that observation? Any links to any professional scouts or any defensive statistics that backs up your observation?

MadMax

11-08-2007, 03:48 PM

What qualifies you to make that observation? Any links to any professional scouts or any defensive statistics that backs up your observation?

I don't have any links...but i remember thinking in 2006 that he was a butcher in LF. That he wasn't good defensively, at all.

I dont remember thinking that nearly as much in 07.

DoitDickau

11-08-2007, 03:55 PM

I don't have any links...but i remember thinking in 2006 that he was a butcher in LF. That he wasn't good defensively, at all.

I dont remember thinking that nearly as much in 07.

He looked okay to me, but I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough make that judgment based on limited personal observation. And i seriously doubt that other casual and, even, knowledgeable baseball fans can make this thin judgment based on limited personal observation. I'd rather trust scouts whose job it is to make these judgments or statistics which track every single play without bias.

rterry

11-08-2007, 04:02 PM

He looked okay to me, but I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough make that judgment based on limited personal observation. And i seriously doubt that other casual and, even, knowledgeable baseball fans can make this thin judgment based on limited personal observation. I'd rather trust scouts whose job it is to make these judgments or statistics which track every single play without bias.

Which is probably what the Astros are doing. As a baseball fan, I have been fussing for a year and a half for Luke to be the everyday starter, but now two GM's and two managers have decided he's not worthy. I'm just going to have to trust that they are making this assessment with good professional advice and information. I don't think he'll fetch much in a trade, but he might help make a package of players more desirable. He also seems to hit pretty well in the clutch, meaning he could be your fourth outfielder and a decent pinch hitter.

Ric

11-08-2007, 04:05 PM

What qualifies you to make that observation?
oxygen, i guess...

i don't claim to be a scout, and i certainly don't have extensive baseball knowledge. i DO have season tickets; i've watched luke scott play the OF these past two years. i know people in austin who know people within the organization.

The Cat

11-08-2007, 04:05 PM

personal observation and anecdotes from those who watched him coming up in austin.

hold on - young? he's "under 30" for the first 2.5 months of next season. from june 25, or whatever, on, he's 30. and he's NEVER been an everyday starter. can you think of a player that suddenly "got it" that late in his career and then sustained it on a consistent basis?

He already has it. Can you think of a player who played as well as Scott has the past two seasons who didn't get it? The situation is very rare for a player with the line of Scott over the past two years not to have a regular job. And before you say there's a reason for that, it's not exactly like the Houston Astros have been known for great management the past three years...

such as what? a top of the rotation starter? a young middle infielder that's ready to play everyday? a proven, experienced closer? those are the astros' remanining priorities - which do you think luke scott can fetch?

I don't think he's as valuable as any of the three straight up (well, perhaps the middle infielder), but I think he can be a key cog in a deal for one.

MadMax

11-08-2007, 04:06 PM

NIKEstrad

11-08-2007, 04:07 PM

hold on - young? he's "under 30" for the first 2.5 months of next season. from june 25, or whatever, on, he's 30. and he's NEVER been an everyday starter. can you think of a player that suddenly "got it" that late in his career and then sustained it on a consistent basis??

I asked this question already. The response is, none.

Cat, I think your opinion of Luke Scott is borderline Spanoulis-esque. I only say borderline because Scott has at least produced something. At best, Luke Scott is a marginal starting corner outfielder (really left fielder). Really he's a DH. Is he any better than say, Daryle Ward a few years back (or now)? Is he better than a Wilson Betemit now?

Not to say that any player capable of starting is worthless, but lefty bats with a little pop and marginal defense, while useful (and maybe even essential to have) can come and go. Hell, look at Mike Lamb. Lamb even plays what I would consider a more premium position.

DVauthrin

11-08-2007, 04:08 PM

This deal is very simple:

Going into the offseason you had a hole at the leadoff spot, and a very shaky rotation after oswalt.

You do not have the next roy or someone elite coming through the system anytime soon. The free agent market has no dominant SP on it, and those guys usually get locked up pre free agency.

What is the best way to make mediocre pitching look solid? A great defense. What is the foundation of a great defense? Your catcher, 2b, SS, CF.

Catcher and short were already very solid. Thus you need to fix 2b/CF. Bourn is an elite defensive CF, and by replacing scott with pence in RF you added more range in RF as well. Next up is deciding between castillo, iguchi or staying in house with loretta(who is fine defensively at 2b) And this move frees up money for other needs the team has to fill because they cut lidge's salary and don't have to spend big bucks on a free agent CF.

The amount of runs that bourn's defense will save will be more than the difference between a lineup of:

bourn
2b
pence
berk
lee
wiggy
catcher/ss

and

2b
pence
berk
lee
scott
wiggy
catcher/ss

The Cat

11-08-2007, 04:23 PM

I asked this question already. The response is, none.

Cat, I think your opinion of Luke Scott is borderline Spanoulis-esque. I only say borderline because Scott has at least produced something. At best, Luke Scott is a marginal starting corner outfielder (really left fielder). Really he's a DH. Is he any better than say, Daryle Ward a few years back (or now)? Is he better than a Wilson Betemit now?

Not to say that any player capable of starting is worthless, but lefty bats with a little pop and marginal defense, while useful (and maybe even essential to have) can come and go. Hell, look at Mike Lamb. Lamb even plays what I would consider a more premium position.

In a full season's worth of at-bats (since August 2006), Scott has an OPS above .900 with capable play in right field by every available metric. Every season Betemit's ever had even above .800 was in fewer than 200 ABs. Ward had one above .800 season, but it was still significantly below Scott's production and his defense was significantly worse.

In that time, he's been one of the more productive outfielders in the National League. Meanwhile, Spanoulis averaged 2.7 ppg and played in 32 games. I'm thinking the comparison might be a stretch.

DoitDickau

11-08-2007, 04:29 PM

I asked this question already. The response is, none.

Cat, I think your opinion of Luke Scott is borderline Spanoulis-esque. I only say borderline because Scott has at least produced something. At best, Luke Scott is a marginal starting corner outfielder (really left fielder). Really he's a DH. Is he any better than say, Daryle Ward a few years back (or now)? Is he better than a Wilson Betemit now?

Not to say that any player capable of starting is worthless, but lefty bats with a little pop and marginal defense, while useful (and maybe even essential to have) can come and go. Hell, look at Mike Lamb. Lamb even plays what I would consider a more premium position.

Yes he is significantly better Daryle Ward was and Betemit is and it's not really even close.

It's very basic, he is a career 273 /.366 /.516 (which is right in line with his mnior league numbers). How many corner outfielders in baseball posted a better line than that last year? How many starter posted a worse line?

OldManBernie

11-08-2007, 04:31 PM

In a full season's worth of at-bats (since August 2006), Scott has an OPS above .900 with capable play in right field by every available metric. Every season Betemit's ever had even above .800 was in fewer than 200 ABs. Ward had one above .800 season, but it was still significantly below Scott's production and his defense was significantly worse.

In that time, he's been one of the more productive outfielders in the National League. Meanwhile, Spanoulis averaged 2.7 ppg and played in 32 games. I'm thinking the comparison might be a stretch.

I like Scott, that's why I would not be in a hurry to trade him. Considering he is not a young player, nor does he have experience in starting full-time, I really doubt we would be getting a fair deal if we trade him away. I would much rather keep his bat on the bench. If someone gets hurt, he'll get a chance to win back his job. If not, I am certain he will get at least 300 ABs in a part time role if he is doing well.

Ric

11-08-2007, 04:34 PM

In a full season's worth of at-bats (since August 2006), Scott has an OPS above .900 with capable play in right field by every available metric.
so why has he fallen out of favor with another regime?

look, i hope you're right, and that we can flip him for something of value. i don't understand the team's approach to him, either. but i'm doubtful he'll bring anything beyond bench/bullpen fodder.

msn

11-08-2007, 04:35 PM

Yes he is significantly better Daryle Ward was and Betemit is and it's not really even close.
No kidding. Betemit? Spanoulis?? Tubby Ward?????

Holy crap. Just say you don't like the guy. He can't even carry their jock in terms of defensive liability and ineffectiveness.

Luke's not a gold-glover. He's not even above average. But I've heard or seen nothing, save perhaps his arm a little bit, that would deem him a liability on the field (though I've admittedly seen much less than others commenting here).

msn

11-08-2007, 04:37 PM

so why has he fallen out of favor with another regime?

look, i hope you're right, and that we can flip him for something of value. i don't understand the team's approach to him, either. but i'm doubtful he'll bring anything beyond bench/bullpen fodder.
Didn't I read a comment about the Astros being displeased with how much time he had to spend in the training room? Do they view him as physically fragile?

Even though I've been defending Luke a bit, here, I agree with the assessment of what he'd bring--but I'd add that I see them making him part of a package (and his status would be a little better than 'throw-in fodder').

The Cat

11-08-2007, 04:38 PM

so why has he fallen out of favor with another regime?

look, i hope you're right, and that we can flip him for something of value. i don't understand the team's approach to him, either. but i'm doubtful he'll bring anything beyond bench/bullpen fodder.

Let's be honest; it's essentially the same regime, with a new figurehead. It's not as if the entire organization has been revamped, yet. (Well, it has at the scouting and minor league level, but it's too soon for that to take effect.) The party line for months from Tal and Drayton has been speed and defense in center, and when it comes down to it, those two are still the decision-makers. They always were and always will be.

And as I said, it's not exactly like these regimes are highly respected for their baseball competence...

The Cat

11-08-2007, 04:39 PM

Didn't I read a comment about the Astros being displeased with how much time he had to spend in the training room? Do they view him as physically fragile?

This is definitely, definitely true. The top concern the Astros have had with Scott is durability... it's not defense or offensive production.

DVauthrin

11-08-2007, 04:44 PM

so why has he fallen out of favor with another regime?

i don't understand the team's approach to him, either.

the team has nothing behind oswalt that would be described as good starters wise. An outfield of lee, pence and scott, makes blah pitching look even worse to do the lead footedness of the corners and pence's inconsistency in CF.

They do not have a stud starter in the minors, so this pitching is going to have to get it done for awhile with some veteran adds here and there. They had to make CF an elite defensive position again if they wanted any hope of making mediocre pitching look better than it is(ie wanting to win) and bourn is an elite defender in CF. It's why they would've started anderson over scott if they had struck out on getting the CF upgrade they wanted.

Lee and Pence are cornerstones, so who gets replaced for the CF defender they need, scott does. Plus they needed a leadoff man, they got that done in the same move.

wrath_of_khan

11-08-2007, 04:50 PM

This deal is very simple:

Going into the offseason you had a hole at the leadoff spot, and a very shaky rotation after oswalt.

You do not have the next roy or someone elite coming through the system anytime soon. The free agent market has no dominant SP on it, and those guys usually get locked up pre free agency.

What is the best way to make mediocre pitching look solid? A great defense. What is the foundation of a great defense? Your catcher, 2b, SS, CF.

Quoting this again because I think it's the point people are overlooking (unless I'm misreading).

This deal isn't about Bourn vs. Scott. Or Bourn's OPS vs. Scott's OPS.

It's about filling a huge hole in the leadoff spot and dramatically upgrading our defense up the middle, specifically CF.

Once you acquire Bourn, you have a LF (Lee), a CF (Bourn), and 2 RFs (Pence and Scott).

So it's really Pence vs. Scott, and I don't think anyone would argue we keep Scott over Pence.

I guess what's debatable is whether or not Bourn can be the everyday CF/leadoff guy we covet and how much value Scott has on the trade market.

Personally, I agree with The Cat -- that Scott can be a key part of a deal to land a quality SP.

If we sign Castillo/Iguchi/etc, we can start with a package of Burke/Scott/Anderson/prospect for a Dontrelle, etc. That's not too shabby.

tinman

11-08-2007, 04:54 PM

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
http://www.fanboy.com/images/wrath-of-khan.jpg

Georock

11-08-2007, 05:03 PM

For what is worth, Luke Scott is right now playing in Venezuela, with Magallanes, he's hitting .212, 2 HR, 9 RBI, 11 SO in 47 AB's. But, both of his homers came in teh last four games, as well as 6 of his 6 RBI's.

The Cat

11-08-2007, 05:03 PM

Some interesting tidbits in the winter meetings recap:

Wade and his crew were busy at the GM meetings, pushing for top-shelve center field prospects before landing one in Bourn. At one point, they told the New York Mets it would take their phenom Carlos Gomez to get Lidge. Mets GM Omar Minaya balked, keeping one of the premier prospects in all of baseball.

"I think you've got a greater potential for more trades to occur than has existed in the last several years because of the dearth of talent on the free agent market and the fact that there are a lot of teams," Wade said.

"Obviously we created more flexibility in the deal where whatever Brad's arbitration number would have been comes off and the only arbitration eligible player that we acquired in that deal was Geoff Geary," Wade said. "Relatively speaking, the numbers aren't even close. We picked up more in that vein. But at the same time our feeling was that payroll flexibility wasn't and still isn't an issue for us.

"We've got pretty good flexibility to go out and do things. On the free agent market it's going to be one of those 'eyes of the beholder' kinds of deals and realistically us looking at what the long-term commitments are going to be and if that makes sense."

The Astros have inquired about Willis, but payroll flexibility won't be a factor in those talks. No matter how much flexibility they have, landing a pitcher like Willis is a matter of having significant top-level prospects to give up. The Astros' farm system is likely not loaded enough to make such a deal at this time.

That's not to say Wade is conceding anything. Up until a few hours before he left the Hyatt, he still thought he was going to have a chance to make another trade.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5286405.html

JunkyardDwg

11-08-2007, 07:08 PM

CometsWin

11-08-2007, 08:23 PM

With all this payroll flexibility (ha) maybe we can package Bourn, Costanzo, and Paulino to the Marlins for Willis and then go sign Rowand. Sounds good to me!

hatemavs4life

11-08-2007, 10:13 PM

I have to say I like what Wade has been doing thus far...he's taking a proactive approach instead of reactive...something Purp never really did.

I would have liked to perhaps have kept Lidge, but I think it probably was necessary; he needed to get out of Houston. And the talent we got for him was decent enough. But it's nice to see Wade was trying to sell high first.

Too early to tell if the moves he makes will pan out...but I like the fact that he's changing the roster, and not in a band-aid type of way.

I like the fact he's willing to make a move and not just sit around with his thumb up his ass. Bourn could be one immediate impact for us with his ridiculous speed perfect for our death valley centerfield and he's a good contact hitter with good to better than average potential to improve greatly. He looks like a solid choice for CF and we got him early before he's value would equate that of the national debt. Torii nice idea but, how much and he's how old? We need to learn from our "quick fix" mistakes and get it right. Should we be able to get D-Train and Cordero then, this is the makings of a very successful offseason for the astros. ;)

DVauthrin

11-08-2007, 11:24 PM

With all this payroll flexibility (ha) maybe we can package Bourn, Costanzo, and Paulino to the Marlins for Willis and then go sign Rowand. Sounds good to me!

bourn was traded to start in CF, they are out of the hunter/rowand sweepstakes.

MaxwellsTemper

11-08-2007, 11:47 PM

I'm guessing Scott is most likely to get moved, hopefully for some pitching. My dream situation would be Scott/Burke for a SP, and we sign Castillo to man 2B.

hatemavs4life

11-09-2007, 01:10 AM

I'm guessing Scott is most likely to get moved, hopefully for some pitching. My dream situation would be Scott/Burke for a SP, and we sign Castillo to man 2B.

Who do you think we can get for Scott/Burke? D-Train? He did have an off year this last year is possible.

Rockets111

11-09-2007, 01:30 AM

I like the deal, although Lidge was coming around.

But we got young prospects and a decent centerfielder. That's the whole purpose of any deal, so it's okay by me.

DVauthrin

11-09-2007, 03:05 AM

to update, many in the astros front office now prefer tad iguchi to castillo. I'd be thrilled with either, or even loretta. I'm sort of wait and see on matsui.