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EGYPT
08-07-2007, 10:38 AM
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15089.htm

Muhammad's sword

Pope Benedict XVI in the service of George W. Bush

By Uri Avner

09/24/06 "Information Clearing House" -- -- Since the days when Roman emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.

Constantine the Great, who became emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the emperors and the popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some emperors dismissed or expelled a pope, some popes dismissed or excommunicated an emperor. One of the emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when emperors and popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a worldwide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "clash of civilizations".

In his lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the Prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:


Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.


These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

When Manuel II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On 29 May 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul), fell to the Turks, putting an end to the empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

Is there any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, Verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant Verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith."

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the Prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: how did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favourites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

There no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics reconquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

Why? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "global war on terror" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

DaDakota
08-07-2007, 10:46 AM
Yep, the Muslim faith is purely peaceful, no wars have EVER been fought in the name of Mohammed.

Look the article makes several good points, but all of them are ancient points...ruled Greece, Spain etc..etc..etc...

We are talking about 400+ years ago......

Different world, different leadership....

DD

ChrisBosh
08-07-2007, 10:57 AM
Yep, the Muslim faith is purely peaceful, no wars have EVER been fought in the name of Mohammed.

Look the article makes several good points, but all of them are ancient points...ruled Greece, Spain etc..etc..etc...

We are talking about 400+ years ago......

Different world, different leadership....

DD


Were you not the one who said that Muslims worship a stone in Mecca?


Case closed. :D

MR. MEOWGI
08-07-2007, 10:59 AM
Neither religion is based on reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order.

EGYPT
08-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Yep, the Muslim faith is purely peaceful, no wars have EVER been fought in the name of Mohammed.

Look the article makes several good points, but all of them are ancient points...ruled Greece, Spain etc..etc..etc...

We are talking about 400+ years ago......

Different world, different leadership....

DD


has any war been fought by religion? or has it been idiots that represent an idiology claiming that it is religious, who create these wars.

DaDakota
08-07-2007, 11:11 AM
Were you not the one who said that Muslims worship a stone in Mecca?


Case closed. :D
LOL- Don't most think that the meteorite has some spiritual connection to Mohammed?

Wikki wikki wikki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone)

"When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the Tawaf ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that it received from Muhammad. If they cannot reach it, they are to point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

has any war been fought by religion? or has it been idiots that represent an idiology claiming that it is religious, who create these wars.

Lots of wars have been fought in the name of religion - but most were under a cover for something else, mainly power, or land etc...

As for religion in general isn't it funny how modern man is more than willing to accept the explanations of ancient man for spiritual things. Even though science and our understanding has increased exponentially.

Many are still more than willing to subjagate themselves to something created by uneducated people, trying to explain the unexplainable...

DD

basso
08-07-2007, 11:12 AM
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral.
All religion has to have its day
Expressions on the face of the Saviour
Made me say
I can't stay.

Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here!
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.

EGYPT
08-07-2007, 11:16 AM
We are talking about 400+ years ago......

Different world, different leadership....

DD


That is exactly the point. It is the people not the Religion

1. The 13 million who died during the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the 20 million killed by Stalin,
2. The thousands who were killed in the French Revolution and the Thousands who died in the American Civil war, and
3. The thousands killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

you should not blame the religion for those deaths, but rather the ideology at that time.

basso
08-07-2007, 11:19 AM
That is exactly the point. It is the people not the Religion

1. The 13 million who died during the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the 20 million killed by Stalin,
2. The thousands who were killed in the French Revolution and the Thousands who died in the American Civil war, and
3. The thousands killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

you should not blame the religion for those deaths, but rather the ideology at that time.

what religion was a factor in the american civil war?

EGYPT
08-07-2007, 11:23 AM
LOL- Don't most think that the meteorite has some spiritual connection to Mohammed?

Wikki wikki wikki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone)

"When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the Tawaf ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that it received from Muhammad. If they cannot reach it, they are to point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba."DD

The Kaaba is the house of of Abraham where his wife Sarah and her son Ismael has resided. The reason why Muslims turn around it 7 times is becasue that is what Sarah did when she was left alone in the desert with her infant child and she was desperately looking for water and she went from one mountain to another and that is what the current Muslims perform as pilgrimage. It is also believed that Jesus, pease be upon him will pray in this area when he returns.

you do not have to agree with any of what I just said, but I just wanted to say it.

can we go back and talk ROX now. :D

DaDakota
08-07-2007, 11:24 AM
That is exactly the point. It is the people not the Religion

1. The 13 million who died during the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the 20 million killed by Stalin,
2. The thousands who were killed in the French Revolution and the Thousands who died in the American Civil war, and
3. The thousands killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

you should not blame the religion for those deaths, but rather the ideology at that time.


Agreed, but when that ideology is rooted in religion you have to look at the root causes.

For instance the Crusades....those were clearly religiously motivated.....

The Taliban in Afganastan, or the Mullahs in Iran....both religiously based coupes.

Lots of people have died in the name of religion....

It is all just people arguing back and forth thinking they are more right than the other, when in reality all sides are just guessing.

The Kaaba is the house of of Abraham where his wife Sarah and her son Ismael has resided. The reason why Muslims turn around it 7 times is becasue that is what Sarah did when she was left alone in the desert with her infant child and she was desperately looking for water and she went from one mountain to another and that is what the current Muslims perform as pilgrimage. It is also believed that Jesus, pease be upon him will pray in this area when he returns.

you do not have to agree with any of what I just said, but I just wanted to say it.

can we go back and talk ROX now. :D

Always willing to talk Rox...and I respect that is what you believe.

For me, I think it is all silly.

DD

EGYPT
08-07-2007, 11:29 AM
Agreed, but when that ideology is rooted in religion you have to look at the root causes.DD

do you for a fact know that the ideology is in the religion? can you give me examples of where christianity gave the crusades a go on killing people in the name of religion? or where islam said to go kill christinas and jews?

it is all powerfull people twisting and turning the religion to serve their purpose.

EGYPT
08-07-2007, 11:33 AM
Always willing to talk Rox...and I respect that is what you believe.

For me, I think it is all silly.DD


and I also respect what you believe. I will see you at the ROX forum :)

by the way I pretty much agree with all that you talk ROX so it is ok to have some disagreement about politics and religion, hell who doesn't

DaDakota
08-07-2007, 11:39 AM
do you for a fact know that the ideology is in the religion? can you give me examples of where christianity gave the crusades a go on killing people in the name of religion? or where islam said to go kill christinas and jews?

it is all powerfull people twisting and turning the religion to serve their purpose.

Man, the Spanish Inquisition was all done in the name of religion, the retaking of Israel during the Crusades was all done in the name of religion.

I mean honestly, who would want that sandy piece of earth if it didn't have some spiritual meaning to people?

I agree people are always twisting religion, it is the easiest way to get them to help out an unjust cause.

and I also respect what you believe. I will see you at the ROX forum :)

by the way I pretty much agree with all that you talk ROX so it is ok to have some disagreement about politics and religion, hell who doesn't

Yep, not a problem at all, disagreement breeds discussion, not necessarily agreement but at least understanding.

thadeus
08-07-2007, 11:40 AM
Kings and Commanders and Imams and Cardinals and 'Representatives' have had all sorts of methods for getting people to go die for the sake of Kings and Commanders and Imams and Cardinals and 'Representatives.'

ChrisBosh
08-07-2007, 12:06 PM
LOL- Don't most think that the meteorite has some spiritual connection to Mohammed?

Wikki wikki wikki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone)

"When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the Tawaf ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that it received from Muhammad. If they cannot reach it, they are to point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba."
DD

Sorry DD, you gotta try to read something other than Wikiwiki, it isn't the best place to go learn about religion……..however it does not state what you have concluded either, it's saying that people emulated what the prophet did, that's it....if you read a book about Islam that's probably one of the first things you'll learn. Also that stone has no relevance to the religion other than it being a stone from heaven, that's it, it's not there for worship as you thought.

Ottomaton
08-07-2007, 12:14 PM
Why are we discussing a 'current events' article that is a year old?

EGYPT
08-07-2007, 01:31 PM
Kings and Commanders and Imams and Cardinals and 'Representatives' have had all sorts of methods for getting people to go die for the sake of Kings and Commanders and Imams and Cardinals and 'Representatives.'


well said

MadMax
08-07-2007, 01:35 PM
Neither religion is based on reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order.

man, i don't wanna take us down this road...but the gospels aside from Luke certainly purport to be direct observation. not, "God pulled me into a cave and told me some secret." But, "I was hanging out with this guy and here's what I saw." For the earliest Christians it was a direct response to what they claimed they saw.

i really don't wanna draw out a long discussion on something we've probably already talked about that's in a thread on a different topic. but i'd like to at least state the point.

RocketMan Tex
08-07-2007, 01:38 PM
what religion was a factor in the american civil war?

This one....


http://www.munic.state.ct.us/BURLINGTON/us_one_dollar_bill/us_dollar_front.gif

MR. MEOWGI
08-07-2007, 02:42 PM
man, i don't wanna take us down this road...but the gospels aside from Luke certainly purport to be direct observation. not, "God pulled me into a cave and told me some secret." But, "I was hanging out with this guy and here's what I saw." For the earliest Christians it was a direct response to what they claimed they saw.

i really don't wanna draw out a long discussion on something we've probably already talked about that's in a thread on a different topic. but i'd like to at least state the point.

Who saw Genesis? Weren't most of the earliest Christians Jews?


(no seeing Genesis at the Summit jokes either)

God's Son
08-07-2007, 03:22 PM
what religion was a factor in the american civil war?

evil white chrisitianity was used to preach slavery and convince blacks the bible wants ethnic purity and segregation and inferiority to white people

christianity has the bloodiest history in history of mankind. its a fact too cause we saw how white chrisitians from europe murdered and enslaved all the browner people when they had the power to while muslims claimed lands but didnt force its people to convert or be killed

MadMax
08-07-2007, 03:46 PM
Who saw Genesis? Weren't most of the earliest Christians Jews?


(no seeing Genesis at the Summit jokes either)

i didn't say Genesis. i said the Gospels. a literal interpretation of the Genesis isn't necessity to being one who follows Christ.

MadMax
08-07-2007, 03:50 PM
evil white chrisitianity was used to preach slavery and convince blacks the bible wants ethnic purity and segregation and inferiority to white people


and what kind of Christianity was preached that fueled the Abolitionist movement?

was William Wilberforce a real or fake Christian?

what kind of Christianity was preached that saved exposed babies from death in the Roman Empire? or convinced followers to not desert the cities and villages overrun with plague so that the sick could be cared for?

at its heart, Christianity has to be twisted and turned to justify anything remotely close to slavery. i call that something other than Christianity.

Invisible Fan
08-07-2007, 04:15 PM
it is all powerfull people twisting and turning the religion to serve their purpose.

Do you think organized religion is more trouble than its worth?

Ottomaton
08-07-2007, 04:30 PM
evil white chrisitianity was used to preach slavery and convince blacks the bible wants ethnic purity and segregation and inferiority to white people

christianity has the bloodiest history in history of mankind. its a fact too cause we saw how white chrisitians from europe murdered and enslaved all the browner people when they had the power to while muslims claimed lands but didnt force its people to convert or be killed

You have a very romantic and idealized view of the idea of tolerance in the Cordoba Caliphate. Jews weren't forced to convert or die in Germany between 1920 and roughly 1936, but that doesn't make it a nice place for people with divergent religious backgrounds to live.

And while the Inquisition was going on, Jews weren't fleeing to North Africa. Some fled to the Levant, but many more were fleeing to places like Holland, where they were comparatively very well treated.

Ehsan
08-07-2007, 05:46 PM
and what kind of Christianity was preached that fueled the Abolitionist movement?

was William Wilberforce a real or fake Christian?

what kind of Christianity was preached that saved exposed babies from death in the Roman Empire? or convinced followers to not desert the cities and villages overrun with plague so that the sick could be cared for?

at its heart, Christianity has to be twisted and turned to justify anything remotely close to slavery. i call that something other than Christianity.


Gotta agree with this. Christianity's name may have been used in certain situations, but that doesn't mean Christianity is to blame.

MR. MEOWGI
08-07-2007, 05:47 PM
i didn't say Genesis. i said the Gospels. a literal interpretation of the Genesis isn't necessity to being one who follows Christ.

But a belief in the Jewish God and the story of man's fall from grace is. Without it the idea of a messiah is futile. It is all mythical rather than "scientific" in origin.

basso
08-07-2007, 06:03 PM
Muhammed's Sword


I prefer Mohammed's Radio.

tigermission1
08-07-2007, 06:24 PM
You have a very romantic and idealized view of the idea of tolerance in the Cordoba Caliphate. Jews weren't forced to convert or die in Germany between 1920 and roughly 1936, but that doesn't make it a nice place for people with divergent religious backgrounds to live.

And while the Inquisition was going on, Jews weren't fleeing to North Africa. Some fled to the Levant, but many more were fleeing to places like Holland, where they were comparatively very well treated.

It's my understanding that the majority of the Jews who fled the Inquisition settled in the Balkans, Turkey and the Levant, most of which was land under direct Ottoman rule. Some also settled in Holland and Eastern Europe.

Ottoman Sultan Beyazit II was rumored to have said, "How can anyone call Ferdinand wise when he impoverishes his own kingdom to enrich mine?" in reference to the Jewish expulsion.

MadMax
08-07-2007, 08:05 PM
But a belief in the Jewish God and the story of man's fall from grace is. Without it the idea of a messiah is futile. It is all mythical rather than "scientific" in origin.

and that story...the fall from grace with distance between man and God...predates the Genesis account. it's not important to me if it's literal truth.

and again...i'm not sure what conversation you think we're having. i started off talking about the Gospels. if I had nothing but Matthew to go by it wouldn't change it for me.

Ottomaton
08-07-2007, 08:43 PM
It's my understanding that the majority of the Jews who fled the Inquisition settled in the Balkans, Turkey and the Levant, most of which was land under direct Ottoman rule. Some also settled in Holland and Eastern Europe.


The books that I have indicate that most of the Sephardic Jews became Marranos or moved to Portugal and became Marranos. They later immigrated to Protestant Europe or Poland-Lithuania. The books I have do indicate that most that left right away rather than feign conversion went to the Levant, Savoy or Dalmatia. So I guess I would agree that most who fled rather than convert went to the Ottoman Empire, but most didn't flee, at least right away. They pretended to convert and later on moved away.



Ottoman Sultan Beyazit II was rumored to have said, "How can anyone call
Ferdinand wise when he impoverishes his own kingdom to enrich mine?" in reference to the Jewish expulsion.

Again, the books that I have say that they were definitely actively welcomed in the Ottoman Empire, but more for their skills and money than for themselves. They were legally second-class everywhere they went. They were maybe viewed the way that foreign imported scientists are in the USA by the jingoist crowd, but with nothing to restrain the expression of that opinion.

If you were a respected Jew it was in spite of the fact that you were a Jew. It was undoubtedly better to be a Jew in Dubrovnik than a Jew in Valencia (i.e. you weren't killed) but it still wasn't nearly as good as good as being a Croat in Dubrovnik. The same thing, of course, was true for Marranos who reverted to Judaism in Flanders or Hamburg. The enlightened view of equal multiculturalism is a modern phenomenon.

Jackfruit
08-07-2007, 09:02 PM
The Kaaba is the house of of Abraham where his wife Sarah and her son Ismael has resided. The reason why Muslims turn around it 7 times is becasue that is what Sarah did when she was left alone in the desert with her infant child and she was desperately looking for water and she went from one mountain to another and that is what the current Muslims perform as pilgrimage. It is also believed that Jesus, pease be upon him will pray in this area when he returns.

you do not have to agree with any of what I just said, but I just wanted to say it.

can we go back and talk ROX now. :D

It's not Sarah, but Hagar. Hagar was the mother of Ishmael.

tigermission1
08-07-2007, 09:02 PM
The books that I have indicate that most of the Sephardic Jews became Marranos or moved to Portugal and became Marranos. They later immigrated to Protestant Europe or Poland-Lithuania. The books I have do indicate that most that left right away rather than feign conversion went to the Levant, Savoy or Dalmatia. So I guess I would agree that most who fled rather than convert went to the Ottoman Empire, but most didn't flee, at least right away. They pretended to convert and later on moved away.

Yes, I am aware of that. The Inquisition didn't spare those who 'pretended' to convert.

The enlightened view of equal multiculturalism is a modern phenomenon.

Of course, no one is comparing it to modern standards, we're talking Middle Ages here.

MR. MEOWGI
08-07-2007, 10:38 PM
and that story...the fall from grace with distance between man and God...predates the Genesis account. it's not important to me if it's literal truth.

and again...i'm not sure what conversation you think we're having. i started off talking about the Gospels. if I had nothing but Matthew to go by it wouldn't change it for me.

It's not important to you if there was a fall? It doesn't matter to you exactly why and how you have a sinful nature? I think you just proved my point. The religion is not based on reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order.

ham
08-07-2007, 11:05 PM
It's not important to you if there was a fall? It doesn't matter to you exactly why and how you have a sinful nature? I think you just proved my point. The religion is not based on reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order.

Regardless of the why and how, it's obvious that people are sinful in nature, so it's not all that important whether Genesis is taken literally.

Deckard
08-07-2007, 11:35 PM
Regardless of the why and how, it's obvious that people are sinful in nature, so it's not all that important whether Genesis is taken literally.
It may be obvious to you, but it certainly isn't obvious to me. By the way, enlightened Christians like Max don't necessarily take everything said in the Bible literally, but some of it as a parable, or a way for the people of the time to describe something they didn't fully understand, using the best way they had at the time, or as stories handed down for generations, from time out of mind, but of meaning to those back then who heard them, and used in parts of the Bible. The Bible being a combination of things from many different sources.

I think it is as wrong for people to attack enlightened Christians for what is in the Bible by saying they take all of it literally as it is for unenlightened Christians (and, of course, this is all my own opinion) to attack others by using the Bible literally.


D&D. Please Impeach Dildo and His Battery.

MadMax
08-08-2007, 06:01 AM
It's not important to you if there was a fall? It doesn't matter to you exactly why and how you have a sinful nature? I think you just proved my point. The religion is not based on reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order.

you're arguing to argue. you set up a strawman Christian in your mind and you project it on believers. we've been through this over and over again.

EGYPT
08-08-2007, 08:37 AM
Do you think organized religion is more trouble than its worth?


nothing is more trouble than its worth, until it is misused.

People have always needed a law to govern them and religion is the only law that you can not argue with its creator, becasue he does not have a physical address to go to, so people must take it for what it is worth.

No matter how societies evolve and how laws change, it will always revolve around religion's main idea, do not kill, do not lie, .......

EGYPT
08-08-2007, 08:42 AM
It's not Sarah, but Hagar. Hagar was the mother of Ishmael.


you are correct. Sarah is the mother of Isaac.

NewYorker
08-08-2007, 08:49 AM
Anyone who fights in the name of religion is really truly stupid. The whole point of religion is to become a better person, not kill your neighbors.

It's a testament to the utter blindedness of the human mind that people can some how warp the notion of spirituality with violence. And those who wish to spread their religion like a virus or disease via finding a host to load their victims with.

There's nothing holier then life itself, and those that justify taking it in anything but the most somber and absolute necessary of terms are not acting in the name of god but in the name of their ego.

MR. MEOWGI
08-08-2007, 11:22 AM
you're arguing to argue. you set up a strawman Christian in your mind and you project it on believers. we've been through this over and over again.

No, you are the one arguing to argue. I posted that Christianity and Islam are not based on reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order. You respond that Christianity was. I state that Christianity is based on the Jewish myth that man fell from grace from a god and are now just born sinful and are condemned. That is not an investigation of reality. It's not a part of seeking deeper insight into the human psyche.

The idea of a creator itself is not based on observance of natural laws, not cause and effect, and nobody has observed the afterlife called heaven. It is not based on reason.

ima_drummer2k
08-08-2007, 11:24 AM
(no seeing Genesis at the Summit jokes either)

DELETED

MadMax
08-08-2007, 02:50 PM
No, you are the one arguing to argue. I posted that Christianity and Islam are not based on reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order. You respond that Christianity was. I state that Christianity is based on the Jewish myth that man fell from grace from a god and are now just born sinful and are condemned. That is not an investigation of reality. It's not a part of seeking deeper insight into the human psyche.

The idea of a creator itself is not based on observance of natural laws, not cause and effect, and nobody has observed the afterlife called heaven. It is not based on reason.


Where did I say Christianity was? I said that certain Gospels were based on observation! It's what they purport/claim to be. That's it!!! That's all I said. You can choose to believe the accounts or you can say they were confused or you can say they were liars.

ReD_1
08-11-2007, 07:13 AM
We have lot muslims on forum sooo I wouldn't start this kind of threads even if it's harmless.

Invisible Fan
08-11-2007, 03:25 PM
Anyone who fights in the name of religion is really truly stupid. The whole point of religion is to become a better person, not kill your neighbors.

It's a testament to the utter blindedness of the human mind that people can some how warp the notion of spirituality with violence. And those who wish to spread their religion like a virus or disease via finding a host to load their victims with.

There's nothing holier then life itself, and those that justify taking it in anything but the most somber and absolute necessary of terms are not acting in the name of god but in the name of their ego.

If you invest your time, mind and body to a religion because you deeply believe in it, it becomes a way of life. Just as there people who'd die for their nation, culture, and family, religion can become all three of those things and something more.

Since a person's perspective is viewed through his lens of experience, it's that experience that can corrupt a religion. It can also serve a religion's long held principles, but it works both ways....

It's also for that reason that people seek to organize religion in order to lock its traditions. Yet the dogma in religion wasn't conservative if you go back far enough. It was in fact innovative at the time. A fresh breath of air in that time....

Anyways, I don't think people die for a religion just for the sake of religion. Not directed at you, but I've seen this argument in strong atheists who have a stubborn wish to eliminate all religion in order to Save the world of death and misery. A lot of cases of martyrdom can be looked upon the view of exasperation of the martyr with the condition of the world and around the things he/she loves: his family, his people, and his nation.

Ehsan
08-12-2007, 05:06 AM
No, you are the one arguing to argue. I posted that Christianity and Islam are not based on reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order. You respond that Christianity was. I state that Christianity is based on the Jewish myth that man fell from grace from a god and are now just born sinful and are condemned. That is not an investigation of reality. It's not a part of seeking deeper insight into the human psyche.

The idea of a creator itself is not based on observance of natural laws, not cause and effect, and nobody has observed the afterlife called heaven. It is not based on reason.

The Prophet Mohammed has seen heaven. Feel free to ask about the accuracy of Qura'anic texts dating back to when the first 5 were written. If you're going to say that he simply wasn't telling the truth, then I don't think that's a conversation worth having.

Who decided that the truth can be reached only through reason, direct observation and the understanding of natural order? You?

tigermission1
08-12-2007, 04:01 PM
Meowgi, I have a question: so if you don't see it and it can't be observed (yet) it means it's not true? Is 'truth' defined by man and his inherent limitations? Is absence of proof proof of absence? How is 'truth' defined, and can it ever be attained?

I would obviously strongly disagree with your view that Islam doesn't place much emphasis on 'reason'; the first verse of the Quran is a direct command to Muhammad to seek knowledge, and there are a number of verses throughout the Quran that exalt the 'knowledge seekers'. But that's another discussion altogether...

EGYPT
08-13-2007, 08:49 AM
I would obviously strongly disagree with your view that Islam doesn't place much emphasis on 'reason'; the first verse of the Quran is a direct command to Muhammad to seek knowledge, and there are a number of verses throughout the Quran that exalt the 'knowledge seekers'. But that's another discussion altogether...


I think the "knowledge Seekers" that Quran discussed was addressing the seekers that were trying to acquire about knowledge that does not benefit, leaving all the needed knowledge that benefits humanity and trying to have questions answered 1400 years ago about "what will happen if a man was flying and he urinated on someone, would the man that he urinated on has to wash for the prayers?

windfern
08-13-2007, 09:10 AM
has any war been fought by religion? or has it been idiots that represent an idiology claiming that it is religious, who create these wars.

you mean idiots like people who blow themselves up for their gods to give them 7 dark virgins.... yada y ada yaadda!!!

windfern
08-13-2007, 09:14 AM
Anyone who fights in the name of religion is really truly stupid. The whole point of religion is to become a better person, not kill your neighbors.

It's a testament to the utter blindedness of the human mind that people can some how warp the notion of spirituality with violence. And those who wish to spread their religion like a virus or disease via finding a host to load their victims with.

There's nothing holier then life itself, and those that justify taking it in anything but the most somber and absolute necessary of terms are not acting in the name of god but in the name of their ego.

Wow, just wow! well put.

EGYPT
08-14-2007, 07:58 AM
you mean idiots like people who blow themselves up for their gods to give them 7 dark virgins.... yada y ada yaadda!!!


you are exactly right ;)

This promise is only true for someone who dies defending his home, family or his country when it is being attacked, not going into innocent people's homes or work places and killing them in a cold blooded act without even giving them the means to defend themselves.

Almu
08-14-2007, 12:02 PM
Religion is EVIL.

Spirituality is peace.