Purpura's Errors

[htownbball]

1. He let Andy go. Even though Andy has been less than his usual self, he's still a #2 pitcher in our rotation. Not resigning Andy really isn't the big deal here...the big deal is...

2. He signed Woody Williams to a 2 year deal. Why give a 50 year old pitcher a 2 year deal at $12m and shaft Andy's 1 year deal plus a player option? Andy makes $16m each year, and would have given us a discount. Now we have $12m invested in a guy who could break his hip like right now and nothing to show for that money. Not to mention he takes up a roster spot that may keep Troy Patton down for another year because Purpura will be unwilling to get rid of Woody.

3. Now it's an even bigger deal that you signed Carlos Lee to a huge contract, which only pays him $11m and $12m in 2007 and 2008 respectively. That's peanuts. We could have fit Andy's contract in there. Our payroll is $88m, minus Jennings and Woody puts us at $77m. Pettitte asked for $14m, we offered $12m. $91m...a lousy $3m might be the difference between us sucking terribly, and us sucking not so terribly.

4. The infamous 3fer Jennings trade. If it's any consolation that Bucky and Hirsh are sucking, I guess Tim should feel better about that. However, we lack team athleticism and we don't have an everyday RF. Hmm...Willy in CF and Pence in RF? Did anyone think of that? Now we're gonna be looking for another bat, experimenting with Burke leading off, and pretty much yelling at Tim that he shoulda sucked Bavasi off so they'd let us sign Ichiro.


However, Tim has made some moves to somewhat redeem himself...except not all that much.

1. He didn't trade Brad Lidge. I wanted to get rid of Lidge so bad, and Purpura made the right call in keeping him. If we couldn't get fair value in return, the best option would be to keep him and try like hell to fix his ass.

2. He signed Mark Loretta. Now, this could be added to the bad list if he doesn't trade him like...tomorrow.

3. He brought up Pence. I think if we didn't suck, we wouldn't see Pence til 2020. He'd be 37 then...still a premium prospect in his eyes.

4. He FINALLY sent Lane to the minors. Yeesh. Anyone tired of that guy yet? Man...if Pence goes on DL and they call up Lane...I think I'll explode.

[msn]

1. He let Andy go.
Stopped reading right here, as that's not what happened.

[thegary]

purpura's biggest problem is that he's not daryl morey

[MiniMing]

Andy wanted to leave, he wasn't going to pitch another season with the Astros. He knew they were garbage, so he left... more money, a better team. Why stay...

[htownbball]

So what happens if we just kept things the way they were?

Oswalt
Pettitte (4.12 ERA, translates to even better in NL)
Sampson
Wandy
Hirsh/Bucky/Rocket (all have better numbers than Woody)

Willy (.314, 24 steals, .363 OBP)
Pence
Berkman
Lee
Lamb
Biggio/Loretta
Bruntlett
Ausmus

You have that lineup/rotation, and the only thing that really has held us back is the bullpen, which hasn't been as sucky lately.

[htownbball]

Andy wanted to leave, he wasn't going to pitch another season with the Astros. He knew they were garbage, so he left... more money, a better team. Why stay...

he left because we lowballed him and said take it or leave it. he's said time and time again, along with his agent, that they would have accepted $14m and would not have excercised the option if he were injured.

[htownbball]

Stopped reading right here, as that's not what happened.

essentially, yes it is. purpura said andy and his agents added an option year at the last second and they werent willing to do it. if you read the 2nd part, youd get it. unless Andy REALLY left for more money and to play for the yankees (which we really dont know), then i cant blame him for andy leaving. but if it really was another year for $14m, how can you not be pissed? not to mention Drayton doesnt count Roger's salary as a normal salary...why cant you do that with Andy?

[mr_gootan]

If Willy T was still here, I doubt Pence would have come up.
Without Pupura's moves, we wouldn't be in 'sell' mode and would be mortgaging the future even more.

[texanskan]

purpura's biggest problem is that he's not daryl morey

No kidding, Daryl Morey is looking like a freaking god and Rick Smith has been impressive with the Texans so far.

Too bad Gerry is gone and we are stuck with a tri that just aint gonna win Purpura/Drayton/Smith

Congrats Purpura on riding Gerry's team to the 2005 World Series

[texanskan]

If Willy T was still here, I doubt Pence would have come up.
Without Pupura's moves, we wouldn't be in 'sell' mode and would be mortgaging the future even more.

No if Willy T were here we would have a good outfield with Pence, Willy T and Lee all hitting.

[plee]

purpura's biggest problem is that he's not daryl morey


One word can explain Purpura's problem: Drayton. If you had an owner with a budget and likes to get involved then what are you going to do...

[Refman]

essentially, yes it is.
No. It isn't. Not kinda, not essentially, not at all. There have been people on this board who know the Pettitte family who have said that all along he wanted back in the Bronx.

Just like with Beltran, regardless how many concessions we made, there was always going to be one last thing that holds it up.

[The Cat]

Andy was not going to come back here. Anything you're heard to the contrary is spin by he and his agent to not make him hated like Carlos Beltran and Scottie Pippen. Pettitte wanted to play in New York, and his mind was made up the second the season ended. It's that simple, and I've heard/verified that a number of places. Let him and it go. It's not a matter of fitting him in budget. He didn't want to be here.

Also, comparing signing Woody ($6 million a season) to Pettitte ($15 million) is absurd. They aren't and weren't related, based on economics.

[Major]

Andy was not going to come back here. Anything you're heard to the contrary is spin by he and his agent to not make him hated like Carlos Beltran and Scottie Pippen. Pettitte wanted to play in New York, and his mind was made up the second the season ended. It's that simple, and I've heard/verified that a number of places. Let him and it go. It's not a matter of fitting him in budget. He didn't want to be here.


The Astros have publicly said Pettitte offered them a chance to match the Yankees offer and would have signed here, but that they were not interested in the 2nd year option. Are the Astros lying?

[MaxwellsTemper]

Andy was not going to resign here. What he pulled through the media while negotiations were still going on was disgusting. Good riddance.

And if Purpura had signed loopy elbow Pettitte to that long deal he wanted, he'd be getting no slack here either. I'm not a big Purpura supporter at ALL, but not resigning Pettitte was not a bad move at all.

Signing Woody Williams is another story.

[The Cat]

The Astros have publicly said Pettitte offered them a chance to match the Yankees offer and would have signed here, but that they were not interested in the 2nd year option. Are the Astros lying?

For a completely unreasonable price, yes. That's all part of it. The Yankees offer was made in such a fashion that no other team within reason could afford to match it. Yes, he might've played here, but he would've been unhappy doing so while financially crippling the team with an absurd $15 million deal for a pitcher who struggled to a 4.20 ERA last season. Also, it's not even a lock he would've played here had the deal been matched. All those statements by Pettitte and his management team were made knowing there was absolutely zero chance the Astros would agree to such a ridiculous contract. It was pretty easy for Andy to say them considering he knew the final result. But he didn't want to play here at all, and if push came to shove, it would've been interesting to see if he held that "word" that you're referring to.

[Nick]

The Astros have publicly said Pettitte offered them a chance to match the Yankees offer and would have signed here, but that they were not interested in the 2nd year option. Are the Astros lying?

Andy also publicly said he was contemplating retirement due to his ailing elbow, and likely wouldn't have a decision for the Astros till late December (while he ended up signing with the Yankees in the very first week).

He then claims (thru his dad) that he was "hurt" that the Astros were looking for other options to replace him after he made that statement.

There were a lot of mis-truths being floated around.

[redgoose]

he left because we lowballed him and said take it or leave it. he's said time and time again, along with his agent, that they would have accepted $14m and would not have excercised the option if he were injured.

That's the exact same thing i heard as well, including the part about the option. He was willing to accept less money to stay here. Also to elaborate a little more, the team doctors that evaluated Andy were worried about Petitte's arm for the second year of the deal. Andy clearly said more than once he would not take the option for the second year of the deal if he we're injured.

The Astros didn't believe him, meanwhile around the exact same time Drayton had ordered Purpura to have the payroll slashed under 100 million (Bud Selig had teased Drayton about being the newest member in the 100 million dollar club last year), and coincedently Andy was not resigned and went back to NY, the only other team he knew. Of course he was going to get more money there. Myself or anyone would want at least an extra 10% to make up for state income tax and probably more to deal with the media spotlight on you every second. Other teams would have been courting Pettite as well if they thought they even had a chance of acquiring him. Mediocre pitchers got overpaid last off season like never before imagined in history. Zito was really the only big guy on the market.

We also got no compensational 1st round draft pick out of Andy's departure making executives look even more stupid than trying to have people believe Andy left for the money. Obviously it's worked on some. However, that's probably not gonna help us recruit anymore Yankee pitchers ever again, even if they are from Texas. He's a local family guy who has already won at every level of the big league game and has already set his family and their families up for life. Drayton just didn't want to look like a cheapskate in the public's eyes yet again by realeasing an Ace pitcher for around the 10th time.

[The Cat]

Andy clearly said more than once he would not take the option for the second year of the deal if he we're injured.

And pitchers never think and/or say they're healthier than they actually are. That never happens. :rolleyes:

By the way, no other teams would offer even close to a multi-year deal worth $15 million a season for a pitcher with arm troubles who struggled to a 4.20 ERA in the weak NL Central. Keep dreaming. This was a deal because the Yankees have unlimited funds and because of his history with them. It was not anywhere near his market value, and the Astros couldn't reasonably match it.

[meh]

The Andy thing was only a mistake when taking into consideration our other moves. The Astros were in a delicate situation last offseason. They are just good enough to maybe compete, but in reality a team that's very mediocre. They had the option of either go for broke and compete while NL central sucks, or rebuild. They chose to compete.

That decision is fine. The problem was their execution. Is Andy worth that second year? Probably not. But if you're mortaging the future, isn't getting Andy at $12 per better than Woody at $6 mil per? That's the problem. If they were saving the money because we have some young pitching stud coming up, that's cool. But for Woody freaking Williams?

[Major]

For a completely unreasonable price, yes. That's all part of it. The Yankees offer was made in such a fashion that no other team within reason could afford to match it.

Well, then it wasn't that he wouldn't play here - he just chose the money. The Astros had the option to pay him if they wanted to. As far as $14MM a year being crippling - that's just silly. It's a 2 year deal. Deals are crippling because they are long-term. Compared to the deals signed by Lilly, Meche, etc, Andy's deal was perfectly reasonable and far less risky. If we were to sign a better Jennings to a 5 yr / $60MM extension as was estimated, *that* would be a crippling, dangerous deal. 2 years, $28MM is nothing of the sort.


Also, it's not even a lock he would've played here had the deal been matched. All those statements by Pettitte and his management team were made knowing there was absolutely zero chance the Astros would agree to such a ridiculous contract. It was pretty easy for Andy to say them considering he knew the final result.


That's all irrelevant. If the Astros wanted to pay him market price, they could have matched it and forced him to say no. He didn't sign here because the Astros made the decision they didn't want him at market value.

[Jared Novak]

Pettitte didn't want to come back, he wanted to pitch in NY, I have it under good authority that NY was on his mind around the all-star break last season.

Drayton didn't want to pay him and was quoted in the Comical saying that they didn't offer him arbitration due to the fact that he might have accepted it and then the Astros would be stuck with him. Drayton and Tim are on record as saying that Pettitte's arm trouble had them concerned about re-signing him (guess they weren't too worried about Jennings' arm trouble).

[redgoose]

And pitchers never think and/or say they're healthier than they actually are. That never happens. :rolleyes:

By the way, no other teams would offer even close to a multi-year deal worth $15 million a season for a pitcher with arm troubles who struggled to a 4.20 ERA in the weak NL Central. Keep dreaming. This was a deal because the Yankees have unlimited funds and because of his history with them. It was not anywhere near his market value, and the Astros couldn't reasonably match it.

It's one thing when a pitcher's arm is sore and he says he can stay in the game or make his next start. We're talking about a clear injury here that a team physician or doctor would be able to show. So then you clearly believe Petitte would have lied and signed his option year being unable to pitch opening him up to a public media bashing?

Instead, who would you have preferred to sign? Not all these pitchers have had previous arm trouble, but a few are pretty old and over 40 opening them up to a higher % of arm trouble.

Ted lilly 40 million/ 4 years
Gil Mech 55 million/ 5 years
Jeff Suppan 42 million/ 4 years
Miquel Batista 25 million/ 3 years
Adam Eaton 24.5 million/ 3 years
Jason Marquis 21 million/ 3 years
Orlando Hudson 12 million/ 2 years
Barry Zito 126 million/ 7 years

Those were our options to go after and bid against other teams. No hometown discount available with the 2007 crop.


I would take Andy Pettite and his word over any single pitcher that signed one of those outrageous contracts in the 2007 off season.

The real fact is Drayton demanded his payroll slashed, and using Andy's option clause as an excuse for not resigning him was Drayton's own personal escape clause to the city and the public (that built his stadium) for not looking like a cheapskate again. I'm sure he didn't want to sign Clemens again either, but he would have had to with all the pressure that would have been put on him.

I seem to remember years ago that a new stadium would give Drayton the money he needed to put a WS winner on the field. We did come close, but now 2 of those core pitchers that got us there have a different set of pinstripes on right now, while at the same time we're missing a couple prospects that could have still been here, and all the while we could possibly be in contention if we had resigned one guy at a good bargain no other team could get. You can't deny the fact that by not resigning Petitte hasn't led to a chain of events that led us to where we are right now.

[DOMINATOR]

not signing pettitte cost drayton more money in the long run. he created more holes by trading away CF, SP, RP for a guy who will cost as much if not more money than if he signed pettitte... while creating more holes. that is of course if they resign jennings. if not then they create even more holes with little to no assets, low budget, and no one but bandaides to call up.

[Jared Novak]

I would take Andy Pettite and his word over any single pitcher that signed one of those outrageous contracts in the 2007 off season.

Then you're pretty gullable.

The real fact is Drayton demanded his payroll slashed, and using Andy's option clause as an excuse for not resigning him was Drayton's own personal escape clause to the city and the public (that built his stadium) for not looking like a cheapskate again. I'm sure he didn't want to sign Clemens again either, but he would have had to with all the pressure that would have been put on him.

Bud Selig teased Drayton about joining the $100 million dollar club and Drayton doesn't like to displease the commissioner. The same thing happened when the Astros promised Drew Stubbs more money than the slotted amount for the position he was drafted at and the commissioner made it known that he wasn't fond of that practice. The Astros then tried to lowball Stubbs and he decided to honor his commitment to UT.

I seem to remember years ago that a new stadium would give Drayton the money he needed to put a WS winner on the field. We did come close, but now 2 of those core pitchers that got us there have a different set of pinstripes on right now, while at the same time we're missing a couple prospects that could have still been here, and all the while we could possibly be in contention if we had resigned one guy at a good bargain no other team could get. You can't deny the fact that by not resigning Petitte hasn't led to a chain of events that led us to where we are right now.

I remember it as well and Drayton let it be known that since he raised the payroll the last three years in the Dome that the extra money generated by the new stadium was already spent. You have to remember that Drayton continues to say he has lost in excess of $130 million since he has owned the Astros, which I believe is a total crock. If Drayton is such a great businessman, then why would he continue to hold on to an asset that continues to be a loss? Drayton spends just enough to keep the team in contention in the NL Central, guess we have to be content with that.

[BigM]

we'd still suck even if pettite was here or the jennings trade didn't go down. this is far far from being just his fault, but there is a monster difference between this years berkman and last years. that may be 07 problem numero uno.

[kevwun]

Taylor Buccholz was no longer a prospect in the Astros system. He was a throw in. He's done nothing to change that opinion.

[Ric]

so, cat (or novak, or whoever else might know): what was pettitte's reason for wanting to leave? was it astro- or yankee-related?

[The Cat]

so, cat (or novak, or whoever else might know): what was pettitte's reason for wanting to leave? was it astro- or yankee-related?

From what I've heard, it was a desire for New York. Nothing particularly negative about here... but he loved the spotlight.

[Blake]

Here are Tim's real errors:

Jason Lane (BACK UP AGAIN :mad:...unless we hope he gets hot and traded
Morgan Ensberg
Adam Everett
No farm system

Basically, these are "his guys" and he's going down with the ship

Ensberg should have never been resigned, not for 4MM...or Lane

And Chris Burke is not the answer either...but at least he can get some AB's now.

[The Cat]

Here are Tim's real errors:

Jason Lane (BACK UP AGAIN :mad:...unless we hope he gets hot and traded
Morgan Ensberg
Adam Everett
No farm system

Basically, these are "his guys" and he's going down with the ship

Ensberg should have never been resigned, not for 4MM...or Lane

And Chris Burke is not the answer either...but at least he can get some AB's now.

The team had clear contingency plans for both Lane and Ensberg, and Lane was never a starter at any point this season. Ensberg lasted about a month, and they replaced him with guys (Lamb/Loretta) that are having quality years. Jason Lane and Morgan Ensberg are not why this team is losing games.

As for the farm system, I know this will start another debate... but the status of the upper levels of the farm system is largely dependent on drafts 4-5 years ago. Tim wasn't the GM then.

[coogz]

Andy makes $16m each year, and would have given us a discount.

Could not disagree more with this statement. The thought going into the offseason was that they could get him at a discount, somewhere along the lines of $6-8 million a year. Then came the offseason, and with it some ridiculous contracts, where players like Gil Meche were getting $11 million per for 5 years. The market went completely haywire, with the Yankees leading the charge trying to bolster their anemic rotation.

I think Andy would have considered the Astros, but once THAT much money was thrown at him, for THAT team, it was a moot point.

I really didn't care about his departure - until he said "It wasn't about the money". Puh-leeeze. Now I smile every time I see him get shelled...

[Groogrux]

so, cat (or novak, or whoever else might know): what was pettitte's reason for wanting to leave? was it astro- or yankee-related?

Kevin Bass said on Opening Day that Pettitte never wanted to come here in the first place. It was his wife that wanted him closer to the family. There are other sordid rumors out there as to why that was.

[Ric]

Basically, these are "his guys" and he's going down with the ship
they're not "his" guys - they're hunsicker's guys: he drafted and/or traded for them. tim merely oversaw their development.

Ensberg should have never been resigned, not for 4MM...or Lane
ensberg was arb el; in the big picture scheme of things, bringing him back for less than $5M is not an indefensible move. i wouldn't have done it, personally, but the guy was just a year removed from a 4th place finish in the MVP voting and they needed a 3b with a power stick. it was a gamble worth taking.

And Chris Burke is not the answer either...but at least he can get some AB's now.
the answer to what? all that's wrong with this team? you're right. but he may very well answer at least two big concerns this winter: team defense and top of the order production.

assuming the astros stay put, his progress over the final 2.5 months of the season will be THE storyline for the rest of this year. if he can prove capable as biggio's replacement.... man, would that be huge.

[NBT]

Pettite was and is a spoiled little cry baby. He wasn't worth the $14M that we didn't offer him.

Baseball players aren't even in shape. Give me the NFL or the NBA any time. Baseball just makes me yawn 90% of the time.

[redgoose]

Kevin Bass said on Opening Day that Pettitte never wanted to come here in the first place. It was his wife that wanted him closer to the family. There are other sordid rumors out there as to why that was.

Are you serious? Those solid NY tabloid and chat room rumors that said his wife demanded he come back here because he had been cheating on her, and if he didn't oblidge she would divorce him? :rolleyes:

I have to to give Drayton his props! Fans that have really followed the Astros over the years here might remember when Clemens was inches to signing with us long before he retired. But he got pissed off at the Astros for leaking his possible contract info and making him look gready to the media. So he went elsewhere and Drayton didn't have to pay him. Now, we have pulled off another slick one in making Andy Petitte look bad and gready! Just like all the other starting pitchers we developed in the past and let walk or traded away right before we had to pay them market value.

I know Jennings isn't great, but we actually do need him since pitchers aren't growing off trees. I can't wait to find out what creative ways we're already plotting to make the casual fans bash him when he leaves. I'm betting this one will be really good since it appears we won't at least trade him for something now.

[Groogrux]

Are you serious? Those solid NY tabloid and chat room rumors that said his wife demanded he come back here because he had been cheating on her, and if he didn't oblidge she would divorce him? :rolleyes:

Lighten up Francis. I just mentioned those rumors in conjunction with what Kevin Bass himself said, which was that Pettitte never wanted to come to Houston in the first place. Forget the tabloid and chat room rumors as to why that was and listen to what Kevin Bass said. I don't think the Astros had a chance to keep him anyway.