Purpura Perplexed

[pgabriel]

Situation perplexes Purpura
Drop into cellar forces GM to take a different look at trade options


By BRIAN MCTAGGART
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

Complete Astros coverage PITTSBURGH — Astros general manager Tim Purpura glanced at the National League Central standings on Thursday and couldn't believe his eyes. He then searched his mouth for words to describe his team being tied for last place.

After winning seven of 11 games heading into the All-Star break, the Astros were swept by the Chicago Cubs and lost two of three earlier this week at Washington. That dropped them into a last-place tie with Cincinnati, which won Thursday to leave the Astros (40-55) alone at the bottom of the Central.

"It's totally unexpected," he said while working the phones from Houston. "In some ways, you can't believe that we are where we are given the kind of talent that's on the club."


Outside observers agree

Purpura, who is responsible for putting the team together, is understandably biased about his club, but he says he has been hearing similar thoughts from general managers of other clubs.

"Even at the All-Star Game," Purpura said, "a number of people from other clubs said, 'Don't give up because you're a lot better than you're showing,' and they point to the fact we swept Seattle and they went back and got in the race.

"The fact of the matter is bemoaning our fate right now and wallowing in our misery is useless. We have to find a way to get out of it and not give up hope and continue."

With the non-waiver trade deadline 11 days away and the Astros 14 games behind first-place Milwaukee, they are in a precarious position. Do they try to make a trade that will help them make what would be a miraculous second-half push, or do they approach the deadline by looking to the future?

What's certain is the Astros have three high-priced veterans in pitcher Roy Oswalt and sluggers Lance Berkman and Carlos Lee signed to long-term contracts, meaning rebuilding isn't an option.

"This time of year, it's always challenging," said Purpura, who last year acquired Aubrey Huff before the trade deadline. "You're looking at the immediate future and you always have to look further down the road.

"Certainly this is a more challenging time than the past because by now in the past couple of years we've started to jell and play better. So far, we haven't done that. It makes the decision certainly more difficult in what direction we go and how you handle the trade deadline issue."

Purpura said he has had trade conversations with every club, but says no deals are on the table, though there are several deals that could be made. Purpura shot down a report out of New York that the Mets were trying to trade for Oswalt, who has a no-trade clause. Berkman and Lee also have no-trades.

"I've not had discussions with any of the players that have no-trades," Purpura said. "If (the Mets) are after Oswalt, they haven't called me. In general, there's a lot of interest in our players, and now the question becomes how sincere is it and what can you get in return?"


Free agency a factor

The Astros have said publicly they are not interested in trading closer Brad Lidge. But infielders Mike Lamb and Mark Loretta, both free agents at season's end, are coveted by several teams. Jason Jennings, who has lost his past five starts, also will be a free agent.

Purpura said last month his focus would be on adding pitchers to the bullpen, and even though the relievers have pitched better after an awful stretch in late June, pitching remains a priority.

"If we're going to get younger players that can help you this year or next year for example, the cost is going to be a little bit higher," Purpura said. "It doesn't make any sense for us at this point to look to next year and make (wholesale) changes on the club. We've certainly got a core of guys, and we have to improve that core."

[Blake]

Is anyone else sick of that fat bastage always talking about all the "talent" on this roster????

[DaDakota]

I guess he forgot that you need talented Pitchers too.

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

This guy is in over head.

Other GMs said I have a good team! LOL. They are your competitors, man.

I thought this was a .500 team at BEST. What does this team do well? Nothing. There are holes all over the place, and this was before we brought up Pence.

[Ric]

relax, the chronicle braintrust is on it (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/4983798.html). hopefully, timmy still has a subscription.

among many choice cuts, my favorite (sarcasm set to stun) was justice's brilliant suggestion to throw "at least $120 million" at the problem. bravo! on a less irreverent note, mctaggert very nearly had me until he suggested they find gary and wyatt to help create some fantasy catcher that doesn't currently exist ("Get some offense at catcher. Imagine a world where a catcher could hit about 20 homers, drive in 80 runs and still manage the pitchers well.").

but i did enjoy this, also from mctaggert: "Acquire a center fielder so Pence can move to right. A prototypical speedster at the top of the lineup would do wonders. Oh, right, they already had one of those." burn.

[Mr. Clutch]

but i did enjoy this, also from mctaggert: "Acquire a center fielder so Pence can move to right. A prototypical speedster at the top of the lineup would do wonders. Oh, right, they already had one of those." burn.

Stop it. You know they didn't have a #2 starter coming into the season.

[Ric]

Stop it. You know they didn't have a #2 starter coming into the season.
and guess what? they STILL don't have a #2 starter. and as soon as the season ends, they'll continue their search. assuming it doesn't intefere with their search for a defensive centerfielder with speed who can hit at the top of the line-up...

[JunkyardDwg]

and guess what? they STILL don't have a #2 starter. and as soon as the season ends, they'll continue their search. assuming it doesn't intefere with their search for a defensive centerfielder with speed who can hit at the top of the line-up...

Well ideally wouldn't they like Burke to be that guy, sans the cf part. So that just leaves finding a more capable rf if there's one available.

[Mr. Clutch]

and guess what? they STILL don't have a #2 starter. and as soon as the season ends, they'll continue their search. assuming it doesn't intefere with their search for a defensive centerfielder with speed who can hit at the top of the line-up...

I know. ;) Just wanted to get that inevitable objection out of the way.

[Ric]

Well ideally wouldn't they like Burke to be that guy, sans the cf part. So that just leaves finding a more capable rf if there's one available.
he was supposed to be that guy this year.

[Mr. Clutch]

he was supposed to be that guy this year.

And Lane and Ensberg were supposed to be significant contributors.

[Major]

Well ideally wouldn't they like Burke to be that guy, sans the cf part. So that just leaves finding a more capable rf if there's one available.

To me, Burke is the ideal #2 guy - also with speed (though not as much), but with a bit more pop. That means the middle of your order is Berkman/Lee/Pence/3B, with Burke & Taveras (or someone like him) being the table setters.

[Luckyazn]

How the hell can this guy think we had a gooooood team?? Our pitching SUCKS!!

even coming into this season after signing LEE we had no pitching beside Oswalt

Jenning? Woody? Sampson? Wandy? :rolleyes:

[SamCassell]

The Willy T of last year didn't take walks. Actually he's a pretty good leadoff hitter this year, but he still has less than a .700 OPS on the road. He's not that special. And would he have matured at the plate in Houston the way he has in Colorado? Dunno.

Bottom line, though, is we lack talent on the field and in the front office. I'd start with fixing the latter, and then the former.

[MadMax]

relax, the chronicle braintrust is on it (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/4983798.html). hopefully, timmy still has a subscription.

among many choice cuts, my favorite (sarcasm set to stun) was justice's brilliant suggestion to throw "at least $120 million" at the problem. bravo! on a less irreverent note, mctaggert very nearly had me until he suggested they find gary and wyatt to help create some fantasy catcher that doesn't currently exist ("Get some offense at catcher. Imagine a world where a catcher could hit about 20 homers, drive in 80 runs and still manage the pitchers well.").

but i did enjoy this, also from mctaggert: "Acquire a center fielder so Pence can move to right. A prototypical speedster at the top of the lineup would do wonders. Oh, right, they already had one of those." burn.

in all seriousness...how do these guys have jobs as sports writers? i don't know these guys personally. they may be princes. i have no idea. but the baseball analysis...wow.

(your gary and wyatt comment is absolutely, undeniably brilliant! :) )

[msn]

and guess what? they STILL don't have a #2 starter.
So you knew Jennings would suck? The trade was defensible at the time it was made. You disagree. Fine. You and Nick have your very own thread dedicated to bitching about that trade.

[texanskan]

Only a blind homer would of thought this team would do anything this season. I said they would be around 500 and I was way off.

Heck I even started a thread listing all the teams that were better than them and got flamed like crazy on this board.

*If everything broke right and we made moves around the all star break than I belived there was a chance at winning our weak division but I would of never bet on it nor did I think it was a real possibility.

Look Purpura (I hope) knows his team is crap and he has done a terrible job but I am sure he is saying these things to save his tail. ie. blaming the manager for being 15 games under 500 not himself and the "talent" on the roster.

Oh and I really question anyone's baseball knowledge who supported that terrible trade that he pulled off out of desperation last winter for some fat douch who has won 1 game.

You identify your key guys, Berkman/Lee/Pence/Oswalt and I guess Lidge and those are your core group. Try to move anything else for prospects to help build up your minor league system that should not be depleated at all but is based on many misses in the draft.

I'll take a terrible rest of 07 and a terrible 08 if these guys can admit their mistakes and start fixing it instead of trying to reload with no bullets left.

[Ric]

in all seriousness...how do these guys have jobs as sports writers?
doesn't it read like some of them have an axe to grind? especially JdDO; specifically: "Commit to interviewing a diverse pool of candidates for the GM and manager jobs to avoid duplicating the mistake of hiring Purpura and Phil Garner."

garner may very well be gone and he may very well be part of the problem... but would anyone here categorize his hire as a "mistake"? and while purpura may veru well be in over his head... i don't begrudge mcclane for making that hire, either. especially when they have tal smith on the payroll who, i assume, is here for the very purporse of holding the hand of someone inexperienced like purpura.

justice's confirms he's likely retarded - what a horrible "rebuilding" plan: throwing gobs of cash at a bunch of 30+ players and blowing the budget out of the galaxy. mctaggert has the most sensible plan, save for the bit about the catcher and resigning loretta - good player and all, and i'd love to have him back, but he wouldn't rank among my top 5 priorities and i don't think i'd favor him over lamb.

[Ric]

So you knew Jennings would suck?
i knew he wasn't worth three young prospects, including our starting CF and lead-off hitter.

The trade was defensible at the time it was made.
half of it was, yes - no one is arguing their rotation couldn't use an upgrade. what they gave up, however, wasn't defensible then or now. it was too much and too short-sighted.

[msn]

i knew he wasn't worth three young prospects, including our starting CF and lead-off hitter.


half of it was, yes - no one is arguing their rotation couldn't use an upgrade. what they gave up, however, wasn't defensible then or now. it was too much and too short-sighted.
Believe me, your point is duly noted and respected. It's beginning, however, to approach Carrian or even Vincian proportions of interfering with other threads.

[pgabriel]

Only a blind homer would of thought this team would do anything this season. I said they would be around 500 and I was way off.




this really seems to be the crux of the problem from management's stand point. either timmy is just giving the company line or he is truly delusional about the talent of the team. even with jason jennings you have people arguing we needed a number two starter. when did jason jennings prove he was a number two starter.

[Baqui99]

Well, most of us here knew that Houston overpaid for Jason Jennings. It's time to trade him for some prospects and try to rebuild the farm system. If we can get anything for Morgan Ensberg, then do it. That guy sucks. Chris Burke is an inconsistent piece of crap, and he needs to be let go as well.

I would hang onto Lamb and Loretta simply because they are two of the only consistent players on the team.

[texanskan]

Well, most of us here knew that Houston overpaid for Jason Jennings. It's time to trade him for some prospects and try to rebuild the farm system. If we can get anything for Morgan Ensberg, then do it. That guy sucks. Chris Burke is an inconsistent piece of crap, and he needs to be let go as well.

I would hang onto Lamb and Loretta simply because they are two of the only consistent players on the team.

you have to get rid of both of them if there is a market out there because neither of them are probally gonna be in the Astros "long term plans" Loretta-age and Lamb-is just not that great.

If the Stros could compete next season then yes you should hold on to them but there is no way this team will compete next season without overspending on free agents because after Troy Patton who is gonna step in from the minors? Josh Anderson, I don't think so.

[The Cat]

I find it absolutely hysterical to watch the haters pat themselves on the back, slam the offseason acquisitions, and then somehow act like Berkman and Oswalt are what's right with the team as far as that "core" group.

More than anything else, I'd love for another Willy to come along so I could watch certain posters scramble for excuses when the wins don't come. It doesn't matter if Jennings never got hurt... if Willy had been around... etc. The foundation of this team is on Berkman and Oswalt. This season, Berkman's hitting around .260 with limited power, while Oswalt is a barely better than .500 pitcher with an ERA around 4. Unless you somehow bring in one or two more ace starters and an Adam Dunn type to the offense (not financially feasible), you're not going to succeed with that kind of production from your stars.

When it comes to this season, those guys significantly underachieving are my problems 1A and 1B... by far. That's why I wouldn't get rid of Purpura... the biggest issues this year (imo, of course) are things completely out of his control and just random, terrible luck.

Oh, and no, the Astros are not searching for a defensive CF who can hit at the top of the lineup. Sorry.

[Mr. Clutch]

When it comes to this season, those guys significantly underachieving are my problems 1A and 1B... by far. That's why I wouldn't get rid of Purpura... the biggest issues this year (imo, of course) are things completely out of his control and just random, terrible luck.

You still fire Purpura because the moves he did make were just awful. (The same moves you thought were so obviously right in the offseason).

Even if Berkman and Oswalt perform how they should, they are barely a .500 team. This isn't an average team right now, it is a horrible team.

[The Cat]

You still fire Purpura because the moves he did make were just awful. (The same moves you thought were so obviously right in the offseason).

Even if Berkman and Oswalt perform how they should, they are barely a .500 team. This isn't an average team right now, it is a horrible team.

If they're a .500 team or close to it, is that worth Purpura being fired? Not to me. Every team goes in cycles, and the Astros don't have the kind of payroll where it's reasonable to expect a 90-win season every year for the next 20 years.

Also, the moves he made were awful? If not for signing Carlos Lee and Mark Loretta, where would this team be? Williams hasn't worked out and Jennings has fallen off the pace in his last three starts, but those are two moves -- not everything he did. Every GM has his hits and misses, and while the Astros missed on Woody, I don't think it's worth firing him over. Yes, I understand his road splits were mediocre. However, on the whole, the Astros needed pitching, he came at a cheap price, and he was 10th in the entire league in ERA last season at 3.65. I can't imagine any GM who wouldn't give it serious thought if they had the Astros roster at the time.

Of the three most consistent hitters on this team, two of them (Lee, Loretta) were Purpura's primary acquisitions while the other (Pence) was rushed to the big leagues when many said he wasn't ready and most teams would've waited.

[texanskan]

I find it absolutely hysterical to watch the haters pat themselves on the back, slam the offseason acquisitions, and then somehow act like Berkman and Oswalt are what's right with the team as far as that "core" group.

More than anything else, I'd love for another Willy to come along so I could watch certain posters scramble for excuses when the wins don't come. It doesn't matter if Jennings never got hurt... if Willy had been around... etc. The foundation of this team is on Berkman and Oswalt. This season, Berkman's hitting around .260 with limited power, while Oswalt is a barely better than .500 pitcher with an ERA around 4. Unless you somehow bring in one or two more ace starters and an Adam Dunn type to the offense (not financially feasible), you're not going to succeed with that kind of production from your stars.

When it comes to this season, those guys significantly underachieving are my problems 1A and 1B... by far. That's why I wouldn't get rid of Purpura... the biggest issues this year (imo, of course) are things completely out of his control and just random, terrible luck.

Oh, and no, the Astros are not searching for a defensive CF who can hit at the top of the lineup. Sorry.

what are you talking about? Haters? Many of the people who are being critical of Purpura, Garner and Drayton are the real fans who live and die with every pitch, game and season.

Garner is not a good manager period, he never has been and never will be.

Purpura has no clue how to buy low and sell high. He has no clue how to put a roster together and he either get's scared and backs out of deals or in the case of the Jennings deal he pulls the triggor to fast because he is scrambling to do something.

Drayton should of realized his best two seasons ever in his public tax dollar stadium was in 2004 with a healthy Clemens + Oswalt and a decent lineup and in 2005 with a "big three" of Clemens + Oswalt + Pettitte (healthy)

In 2006 the lineup was even worse than the 2005 lineup and your dominate closer in Lidge was not as good and Clemens did not pitch the whole year.

So what do you do? Bring in two bats, check! Lee and Loretta and then you KEEP PETTITTE AND CLEMENS WITH OSWALT. All he had to do was pay Pettitte and not make that trade and things are different.

As far as your point about Berkman and Oswalt not being Berkman and Oswalt your right but the point is if Purpura had done his job than this team would be a disapointing 500 club not a embarrassing 15 games under 500.

Oh and Purpura looks like a fat slob and can hardly string a sentance together do we want him representing us?

[JunkyardDwg]

You know you look back on all the moves Purpura has made since he's been here and seems the majority of people agreed with the signings and trades at the time they were made...he certainly can be faulted for not doing a whole lot and stubbornly sticking with the same guys year after year...but if memory serves people generally liked the Preston Wilson signing, the trade for Aubrey Huff and the Jennings deal...at the time. Can the guy be faulted for those three performing below expectations? And of course can he be faulted for underachieving of guys currently on the roster? And what about the Lidge situation...he wisely (or stubbornly) chose to hang onto Lidge and now he's re-emerged as our most dominant guy in the pen. He went out and snagged Loretta for cheap, too. And him and Garner stuck with Everett when so many people clamored for him to go, thinking more offense at that position would be the saving grace for this team. Now I'm not defending the guy; I think him, Garner, the rest of the coaching staff and the players should all be thoroughly evaluated in the offseason to determine the best direction to get this team back on track.

I just think it's way too easy to point blame at him or any other one guy on this team.

[JunkyardDwg]

Garner is not a good manager period, he never has been and never will be.

So what do you do? Bring in two bats, check! Lee and Loretta and then you KEEP PETTITTE AND CLEMENS WITH OSWALT. All he had to do was pay Pettitte and not make that trade and things are different.

As far as your point about Berkman and Oswalt not being Berkman and Oswalt your right but the point is if Purpura had done his job than this team would be a disapointing 500 club not a embarrassing 15 games under 500.

Oh and Purpura looks like a fat slob and can hardly string a sentance together do we want him representing us?

Garner's not a terrible manager and not a great manager...but I would say he's a pretty good manager that's gotten more out his rosters this past few years than most other guys probably could.

Pettite has a 2-3 record with a 5.64 ERA over his last 10 starts.

Eh, a losing record is a losing record. I felt roughly the same the past two during their slumps as I do now.

And can we cut out the fat comments already...hardly makes him incapable of doing his job.

[Jeff]

790 keeps playing this cut of him on Pallilo's show yesterday saying how they had hoped Morgan Ensberg would have a bounceback year this year and return to the form when he was fourth in the MVP balloting.

Look, I'm not a huge baseball fan or anything, but if the Astros were seriously banking on Morgan freaking Ensberg this season, they are morons. It's painfully obvious that Hunter Pence should have been on the major league roster last year (maybe even part of the year before that) and he didn't even make the club for a month despite batting .500 in spring training.

What a train wreck.

[gunn]

and the Astros don't have the kind of payroll where it's reasonable to expect a 90-win season every year for the next 20 years.

Billy Beane has had a minimum of 87 wins per year in Oakland over the last 8 years with a payroll significantly less than that of the Astros.

[Nick]

Billy Beane has had a minimum of 87 wins per year in Oakland over the last 8 years with a payroll significantly less than that of the Astros.

And if we operated our team like Billy Beane is forced to do, Oswalt AND Berkman (let alone Pettite and Clemens) wouldn't have been playing for us in the 2005 World Series.

[gunn]

And if we operated our team like Billy Beane is forced to do, Oswalt AND Berkman (let alone Pettite and Clemens) wouldn't have been playing for us in the 2005 World Series.

That's not the point.

[pgabriel]

That's not the point.


plus oakland plays in the tougher league in a much tougher division.

[The Cat]

Look, I'm not a huge baseball fan or anything, but if the Astros were seriously banking on Morgan freaking Ensberg this season, they are morons. It's painfully obvious that Hunter Pence should have been on the major league roster last year (maybe even part of the year before that) and he didn't even make the club for a month despite batting .500 in spring training.

What a train wreck.

Huh? Are you sure you're not confusing Hunter Pence with someone else? He was a pretty good AA hitter last year, and the year before that, he never hit above A ball. The Astros were incredibly fortunate and lucky that he was major league ready this year... asking him to do anything in 2005 or 2006 would've been completely unreasonable.

[No Worries]

You still fire Purpura because the moves he did make were just awful.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/columnist/winston/2004-06-10-minors_x.htm
CHRIS SAMPSON, Salem Avalanche (high Class A)

When you take a glance at right-hander Chris Sampson's career statistics, it looks like there's a mistake.

How else to explain a page which lists the first line of stats for him as a shortstop at Auburn (New York-Penn) back in 1999 and the second as a pitcher, four years later, at low-Class A Lexington in 2003?

Perhaps the most baffling part of the puzzle is Sampson's 2003 stats in his mound debut: a 1.90 ERA in 31 games, just 19 walks and 72 strikeouts in 94 2/3 innings and a .226 opponent average. Where had this guy been the last three-plus years? Even more important, why wasn't he a pitcher to start with?

Sampson, now 26, walked away from baseball following the 1999 season but came out of self-imposed retirement in the winter of 2002-2003. He returned to the game that his heart had never really left, and a year later has emerged as a prospect.

When the Astros drafted the Texas native in the eighth round of 1999 out of Texas Tech, it seemed to be one more step on the way to realizing his lifelong fantasy. It was not a fantasy shared by his fiancée, however.

After his debut season, in which he hit .239 for short-season Auburn, the two discussed their future and decided that maybe life in baseball wasn't the answer.

"My priorities in life have always been God is No. 1, my family is No. 2 and baseball No. 3," Sampson said. "(My fiancée) was concerned about the fact that I didn't have my college degree. Baseball wouldn't always be there, and we'd be married with a family, and then what would I do to support that family?"

Sampson agreed to retire and return to school, meanwhile getting a job as an assistant baseball coach at Collin County (Texas) Community College. The couple married in spring 2001, but there was always a hole in his life where playing baseball had been.

"I thought I had made the right decision at the time, but maybe by not playing and missing out on everything I could have been doing it made me more unhappy," Sampson said. "So the marriage couldn't be happy either and we eventually went our opposite ways."

The two divorced in the fall of 2002 and, almost immediately, Sampson called the Astros' scouting department to inquire about whether it was too late for him to return. He was put in touch with Ralph Bratton, the scout who'd originally signed him. Bratton asked if he could still play shortstop.

"I told him I didn't run as fast as I used to and I hadn't swung a bat in a while, but my arm was still in good shape," leading to the possibility of his coming back as a pitcher. It was not a totally foreign idea for Sampson.

While working as a coach, he had thrown batting practice and, one day, pitched in an intrasquad game when one of the teams ran out of pitchers. After Sampson struck out five of the six guys he faced, Collin County coach Greg Dennis sat him down.

" 'What are you doing here?' ", Sampson recalls him asking. "I asked him what he meant, and he said 'Well, I think you should still be playing. Why don't you go back and give it another try?' "

Sampson was invited to Minute Maid Park to try out in front of the Astros' player development brass, including assistant GM Tim Purpura who, admittedly, was a little skeptical about the comeback.

"The idea of a 24-year-old coming back and starting to pitch for the first time, well, the odds are pretty slim of that working out," said Purpura, who remembers the organization actually toying with the idea of moving Sampson to the mound back in 1999. "The thing we've come to grips with is that when you make that transition, you're ripe for arm problems."

Purpura saw enough of the raw package at that Houston tryout to invite Sampson to spring training in Florida.

"He has an aptitude for pitching that even some longtime pitchers don't have," Purpura said. The Astros sent Sampson to Lexington, where he pitched relief for his first eight games before moving into the rotation in mid-June. In 14 starts, he posted a 1.08 ERA.

This year at Salem, the 6-0 170-pounder was 3-3 with a 3.08 ERA through June 4. He had walked 13 batters in 64 1/3 innings on the season.

And in case you were wondering, he is currently dating a girl from back home in Texas who is a big baseball fan.

"I think that was one of the first things I asked her," Sampson laughed.

[msn]

what are you talking about? Haters? Many of the people who are being critical of Purpura, Garner and Drayton are the real fans who bitch and moan with every pitch, game and season.
There, fixed it for ya. :p

[Mr. Clutch]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/columnist/winston/2004-06-10-minors_x.htm


Ok, we know he did well as a talent evaluator.

We are talking about the job he has done as GM.

[The Cat]

what are you talking about? Haters? Many of the people who are being critical of Purpura, Garner and Drayton are the real fans who live and die with every pitch, game and season.

Garner is not a good manager period, he never has been and never will be.

Right... he only took over a mediocre club and had it finish 36-10, while taking it to the World Series and the first championship in franchise history the following year. Garbage.

Purpura has no clue how to buy low and sell high. He has no clue how to put a roster together and he either get's scared and backs out of deals or in the case of the Jennings deal he pulls the triggor to fast because he is scrambling to do something.

It's irony that people have this complaint with Purpura, because that's exactly what he did (sell high) in the Jennings deal. Taveras wasn't the principle... he never was and never will be. Hirsh was. Hirsh built a reputation as a top prospect based on his minor league results, but the Astros knew he was overachieving and that his talent likely meant he wouldn't have the kind of results some people were anticipating. So Purpura dealt him when he had the "top prospect" line attached to him, which is quickly fading. The roster is put together fine. The problems come from a combination of star players underachieving, the Biggio issue and a limited farm system, which is directly at the hands of Hunsicker.

Drayton should of realized his best two seasons ever in his public tax dollar stadium was in 2004 with a healthy Clemens + Oswalt and a decent lineup and in 2005 with a "big three" of Clemens + Oswalt + Pettitte (healthy)

In 2006 the lineup was even worse than the 2005 lineup and your dominate closer in Lidge was not as good and Clemens did not pitch the whole year.

So what do you do? Bring in two bats, check! Lee and Loretta and then you KEEP PETTITTE AND CLEMENS WITH OSWALT. All he had to do was pay Pettitte and not make that trade and things are different.

Pettitte was not going to stay in Houston. Period. Anything you've heard to the contrary is spin from his agent to control the perception. Pettitte was dying to be in New York, and he's there. He never really was an option. I have that on pretty good authority.

As far as your point about Berkman and Oswalt not being Berkman and Oswalt your right but the point is if Purpura had done his job than this team would be a disapointing 500 club not a embarrassing 15 games under 500.

Not really. If you trade Jennings for Taveras, there's a hole at SP and maybe a marginal upgrade in RF (though I think Scott will be the better player by the end of the year). The W/L differential would be minimal. With Woody, did you see how much most starting pitchers in free agency went for? If you don't sign Woody... well, you're not going to sign much of value for $12 million over 2 years. So it's not as simple as pointing out that that money could've been spent better elsewhere. As far as starting pitching goes, that was minimal.

If Purpura hadn't done his job, signed Lee and Loretta (despite people arguing against it) and taken a huge risk on Pence that most teams wouldn't have taken (sorry, Jeff), this team would be about 25 games under. Sad, but true.

Oh and Purpura looks like a fat slob and can hardly string a sentance together do we want him representing us?

Got it. Baseball knowledge is irrelevant. You want someone who looks pretty. Should Drayton call Hollywood for his next GM? As for "stringing together sentences," Tim is a very articulate man. I find it pretty ironic that someone who misspelled the words "dominant," "sentence" and "trigger" and uses "to" instead of "too" is calling out other people for hardly stringing a sentence together.

[The Cat]

Billy Beane has had a minimum of 87 wins per year in Oakland over the last 8 years with a payroll significantly less than that of the Astros.

Oakland has arguably the best GM and management system in all of sports. While it'd be nice if the Astros could find something comparable, I don't think it's realistic to expect that.

[msn]

Got it. Baseball knowledge is irrelevant. You want someone who looks pretty. Should Drayton call Hollywood for his next GM? As for "stringing together sentences," Tim is a very articulate man. I find it pretty ironic that someone who misspelled the words "dominant," "sentence" and "trigger" and uses "to" instead of "too" is calling out other people for hardly stringing a sentence together.
haha! You forgot "should of" instead of "should have."

[texanskan]

Right... he only took over a mediocre club and had it finish 36-10, while taking it to the World Series and the first championship in franchise history the following year. Garbage.

It was not the team he put together

It's irony that people have this complaint with Purpura, because that's exactly what he did (sell high) in the Jennings deal. Taveras wasn't the principle... he never was and never will be. Hirsh was. Hirsh built a reputation as a top prospect based on his minor league results, but the Astros knew he was overachieving and that his talent likely meant he wouldn't have the kind of results some people were anticipating. So Purpura dealt him when he had the "top prospect" line attached to him, which is quickly fading. The roster is put together fine. The problems come from a combination of star players underachieving, the Biggio issue and a limited farm system, which is directly at the hands of Hunsicker.

I think Colorado sold Jennings high and bought Willy low. I never belived the Hirsh hype of him being a top 2 starter but I did and still do think he is a starter
Pettitte was not going to stay in Houston. Period. Anything you've heard to the contrary is spin from his agent to control the perception. Pettitte was dying to be in New York, and he's there. He never really was an option. I have that on pretty good authority.

Then why did the Astros say it was a about not giving him another year as a player option? A, because Andy was gonna take two million less to play here as long as he had a player option
Not really. If you trade Jennings for Taveras, there's a hole at SP and maybe a marginal upgrade in RF (though I think Scott will be the better player by the end of the year). The W/L differential would be minimal. With Woody, did you see how much most starting pitchers in free agency went for? If you don't sign Woody... well, you're not going to sign much of value for $12 million over 2 years. So it's not as simple as pointing out that that money could've been spent better elsewhere. As far as starting pitching goes, that was minimal.

Sign Pettitte and things work out

If Purpura hadn't done his job, signed Lee and Loretta (despite people arguing against it) and taken a huge risk on Pence that most teams wouldn't have taken (sorry, Jeff), this team would be about 25 games under. Sad, but true.

Total BS most teams would of dumped Lane and had Pence on the roster
Got it. Baseball knowledge is irrelevant. You want someone who looks pretty. Should Drayton call Hollywood for his next GM? As for "stringing together sentences," Tim is a very articulate man. I find it pretty ironic that someone who misspelled the words "dominant," "sentence" and "trigger" and uses "to" instead of "too" is calling out other people for hardly stringing a sentence together.

Dude, I am at work doing three things at a time so I will make mistakes for time to time on clutchfans message board spelling. Tim is doing one thing when he is infront of a camera and that is talking about the Astros so it is not too much to expect to hear plausible sentences come out of him fat mouth.

Edit My answers in bold

[The Cat]

Dude, I am at work doing three things at a time so I will make mistakes for time to time on clutchfans message board spelling. Tim is doing one thing when he is infront of a camera and that is talking about the Astros so it is not too much to expect to hear plausible sentences come out of him fat mouth.

I talk to him on a somewhat regular basis, and he's articulate. Anyone who's watched him consistently I'm sure would say the same. You're taking a couple of quotes you don't like entirely out of context and making it into something else. His baseball moves are up for debate, but I think we can have a discussion higher than third-grade level and drop the fact that he's fat. I could care less if a guy weighs 150, 200, 250 or 300 pounds, and I could care less what kind of quotes he gives to the media (and I say that as part of the media). As someone who follows this team, what matters is his knowledge of the game and of evaluating players and transactions. He's certainly left himself open for criticism there, as almost any GM has. But let's stick to that instead of the 9-year-old pointing and saying "look, he's fat!!!"

[gunn]

Oakland has arguably the best GM and management system in all of sports. While it'd be nice if the Astros could find something comparable, I don't think it's realistic to expect that.

Whether or not "you" think its realistic is irrelevant. The fact is, it's happening right there for you to see.

[The Cat]

Whether or not "you" think its realistic is irrelevant. The fact is, it's happening right there for you to see.

No, it's completely relevant. You don't build teams based on fairy tales and taking 1 in 1,000 shots. You make calculated decisions based on what gives you the highest probability of success. If something's happening but it doesn't appear to be something that is likely to be replicated, you bet it's relevant.

[Buck Turgidson]

His baseball moves are up for debate, but I think we can have a discussion higher than third-grade level and drop the fact that he's fat...But let's stick to that instead of the 9-year-old pointing and saying "look, he's fat!!!"
Texaskan is a REAL FAN!!!

[msn]

Texaskan is a REAL FAN!!!
Dude, it's "TRUE FAN!!!!!!11".

If you really *were* a TRUE FAN!!!!!!11, you would "of" gotten it right.

[Major]

No, it's completely relevant. You don't build teams based on fairy tales and taking 1 in 1,000 shots.

Isn't that kind of what Purpura did with the Jennings trade? Counting on Jennings continuing to play or better than his career-year last year, counting on the NL Central to continue sucking, counting on our 0.500-type team winning said sucky NL Central, counting on a miracle run through the playoffs with said 0.500 type team that won the terrible division? :)

[The Cat]

It was not the team he put together

No, but you can directly contrast the performance of the same team under Garner compared to his predecessor.

Then why did the Astros say it was a about not giving him another year as a player option? A, because Andy was gonna take two million less to play here as long as he had a player option

They had to craft a scenario for fans to believe it was a serious, legitimate option. It wasn't. I mean, they held out hope that maybe they'd get lucky and he'd have a change of heart, but there's a reason they almost completed the Garland deal before any of the "player option" BS came into play.

Sign Pettitte and things work out

No, they don't. This team needs so much more than Andy Pettitte and Willy Taveras that it's not even funny. Besides, Pettitte wasn't an option.

Total BS most teams would of dumped Lane and had Pence on the roster

No, most fanboys who don't understand how the game is actually played and evaluated would. Pence had (and still has) significant holes in his swing. He was a good but not great player (didn't break .900) in AA a season ago. He had no AAA experience. They had a guy who played a capable CF a season ago while swinging the bat well (Burke). Given those circumstances, there's not a team in the league (save maybe the Royals or a team desperate for a headline) that would've played Pence out of spring training. Not one. Most teams and executives were stunned the Astros brought him up as soon as they did (trust me, I've asked).

[The Cat]

Isn't that kind of what Purpura did with the Jennings trade? Counting on Jennings continuing to play or better than his career-year last year, counting on the NL Central to continue sucking, counting on our 0.500-type team winning said sucky NL Central, counting on a miracle run through the playoffs with said 0.500 type team that won the terrible division? :)

To be fair, given that last year was the first season that Coors wasn't incredibly hitter-friendly, I think he had good reason to have confidence in Jennings. It just hasn't worked out over the last three starts, for whatever reason (the velocity is extremely discouraging).

The rest, I won't disagree. It was a blueprint to be the best of a mediocre bunch and get lucky in the postseason.

[texanskan]

True Fans stick by their teams but demand a winner and if they are losing they demand change.

Bandwagon fans, women and children "root for the good guys"

Now I think Garner should be fired today and Cooper should be hired, as soon as the season is done I would get rid of Purpura.

It's Garner's fault this team looks like the bad news bears out there and it's hard to defend many of his moves that go against conventional thinking.

I blame both Purpura and Drayton for the terrible off season but you can't fire the owner so Tim needs to go.

[gunn]

No, it's completely relevant. You don't build teams based on fairy tales and taking 1 in 1,000 shots. You make calculated decisions based on what gives you the highest probability of success. If something's happening but it doesn't appear to be something that is likely to be replicated, you bet it's relevant.

No, your thoughts on the practicality of such success is irrelevant. It's neither a "fairy tale" nor a "1 in 1,000 shot". It's a team that has pumped out a minimum of 87 wins per year over the last 8 years with a payroll that is roughly 1/4 less than the payroll that you are saying it's "unreasonable to expect 90 wins from".

[Mr. Clutch]

No, your thoughts on the practicality of such success is irrelevant. It's neither a "fairy tale" nor a "1 in 1,000 shot". It's a team that has pumped out a minimum of 87 wins per year over the last 8 years with a payroll that is roughly 1/4 less than the payroll that you are saying it's "unreasonable to expect 90 wins from".

The Cat is going to use every card he has before he admits it was a poor offseason.

We're just fanboys who don't understand the game.

[texanskan]

No, but you can directly contrast the performance of the same team under Garner compared to his predecessor.



They had to craft a scenario for fans to believe it was a serious, legitimate option. It wasn't. I mean, they held out hope that maybe they'd get lucky and he'd have a change of heart, but there's a reason they almost completed the Garland deal before any of the "player option" BS came into play.



No, they don't. This team needs so much more than Andy Pettitte and Willy Taveras that it's not even funny. Besides, Pettitte wasn't an option.



No, most fanboys who don't understand how the game is actually played and evaluated would. Pence had (and still has) significant holes in his swing. He was a good but not great player (didn't break .900) in AA a season ago. He had no AAA experience. They had a guy who played a capable CF a season ago while swinging the bat well (Burke). Given those circumstances, there's not a team in the league (save maybe the Royals or a team desperate for a headline) that would've played Pence out of spring training. Not one. Most teams and executives were stunned the Astros brought him up as soon as they did (trust me, I've asked).

fanboys? lol, Pence is having one of the best rookie seasons of all time and you still think the Astros (who would still have Miguel Cabrera in AAA if he was an Astro farm hand) made a mistake and "rushed him along"

Did you ever play sports? If you did than you would know that playing against top competion is what helps players progress not staying put where you have been dominate.

As far as Pettitte goes, he told the truth period. The Astros never denied it, Purpura said that they were not gonna offer a second year "player option". Andy was gonna take 2 million less to stay here. I would of told the Astros goodbye as well and I am a native who wanted to grow up and play for the Astros.

Cat, you seem like a true fan but it also seems like your pretty clueless about this issue.

[The Cat]

No, your thoughts on the practicality of such success is irrelevant. It's neither a "fairy tale" nor a "1 in 1,000 shot". It's a team that has pumped out a minimum of 87 wins per year over the last 8 years with a payroll that is roughly 1/4 less than the payroll that you are saying it's "unreasonable to expect 90 wins from".

I said it was unreasonable to expect 90 wins from them every year for 20 years... you left off that point. In any event, I could care less what that team has done -- as I said, the management level is off the charts. If it's replicable, that's something the Astros need to examine closely. If it's not (and I haven't seen evidence to believe it is), you have to consider the entire landscape of the game and not one isolated extreme example when evaluating a point of view. If it's not practical, it's quite relevant to what long-term decisions the Astros make.

[texanskan]

The Cat is going to use every card he has before he admits it was a poor offseason.

We're just fanboys who don't understand the game.

I don't know the guy so I am just gonna guess that he is a baseball only fan because those are the kind of statements "baseball only fans" make.

[msn]

True Fans stick by their teams but demand a winner and if they are losing they demand change.

Bandwagon fans, women and children "root for the good guys"
Seriously, cut this BS drivel out. Everyone calling each other "bandwaggoners", etc.

No one questioned whether or not you were a fan. Of course you are--you care enough to feel angry and to question and criticize management loudly. Guess what--people who *agree* with management are fans, too.

Now, cut out this immature BS of "TRUEFANdickmeasuringcontests" and discuss the issue at hand.

Now I think Garner should be fired today and Cooper should be hired, as soon as the season is done I would get rid of Purpura.
I disagree. With this bad team, what could Garner have done differently, other than his maddening continuance of batting Bidge leadoff? I would wait until season's end to decide what I would do with Purpura. Some folks are acting like this trade deadline is a make-or-break moment of catastrophic proportions for the next 10 years of the franchise, and I just don't buy it. It is, however, another opportunity to evaluate Purpura's performance on the job.

[texanskan]

Seriously, cut this BS drivel out. Everyone calling each other "bandwaggoners", etc.

No one questioned whether or not you were a fan. Of course you are--you care enough to feel angry and to question and criticize management loudly. Guess what--people who *agree* with management are fans, too.

Now, cut out this immature BS of "TRUEFANdickmeasuringcontests" and discuss the issue at hand.


I disagree. With this bad team, what could Garner have done differently, other than his maddening continuance of batting Bidge leadoff? I would wait until season's end to decide what I would do with Purpura. Some folks are acting like this trade deadline is a make-or-break moment of catastrophic proportions for the next 10 years of the franchise, and I just don't buy it. It is, however, another opportunity to evaluate Purpura's performance on the job.

fair point on Garner and Purpura but do you really think this is one bad season in a string of good ones? Last season was 82-80 and it took a hell of a run to do that. In addition we are in a poor division in the weak NL.

I think it's time to have a firesale on all non long term pieces that we can move and admit to the fans that 2008 we are gonna be in a rebuild not a patch up mode.

[Aceshigh7]

Oakland has arguably the best GM and management system in all of sports. While it'd be nice if the Astros could find something comparable, I don't think it's realistic to expect that.

They've made it to the ALCS one time since 1992, and they got swept badly in that. I'll take the Astros management over the A's, thank you

[msn]

Pence is having one of the best rookie seasons of all time and you still think the Astros (who would still have Miguel Cabrera in AAA if he was an Astro farm hand) made a mistake and "rushed him along"
He never said they "made a mistake," and he's interviewed the baseball-higher-ups who relayed this opinion to him? Have you? He heard it straight from the horse's mouth. Yet you're still going to continue to throw your contrived guesswork in our faces?

Did you ever play sports? If you did than you would know that playing against top competion is what helps players progress not staying put where you have been dominate.
Hence the move from AA to AAA. Did you ever pay attention to Pence's career? :p

Cat, you seem like a true fan but it also seems like your pretty clueless about this issue.
What an arrogant statement. He's talked to people on the inside of the situation, and you have nothing but your imagination and your ESPN Sportscenter updates. Keep on condescending to people, though. Awesome. Because, you're a "TRUE FAN!!!!!".

[The Cat]

fanboys? lol, Pence is having one of the best rookie seasons of all time and you still think the Astros (who would still have Miguel Cabrera in AAA if he was an Astro farm hand) made a mistake and "rushed him along"

When did I say they made a mistake? I said they took a chance, and they got lucky.

Did you ever play sports? If you did than you would know that playing against top competion is what helps players progress not staying put where you have been dominate.

Yes, I did. Now, have you ever taken a good look at the progression of the typical major league hitter through a minor league system? It takes time, and usually, you'll find they take more than 3 weeks at AAA (with a few isolated exceptions). The Astros weren't making Pence "stay put" -- they moved him up to AAA.

As far as Pettitte goes, he told the truth period. The Astros never denied it, Purpura said that they were not gonna offer a second year "player option". Andy was gonna take 2 million less to stay here. I would of told the Astros goodbye as well and I am a native who wanted to grow up and play for the Astros.

This is hilarious. I've talked to people directly involved or to people with contacts directly involved in the situation, yet you (with no sources that I know of) are going to tell me that they're all lying... it's all a huge conspiracy... right. The Astros weren't going to offer a 2-year deal for roughly $15 million a season to a starter who posted a 4.20 ERA (for comparison, that's roughly the same as Wandy this year) in a weak National League last season, complained of elbow pain all the time, and didn't know if he even had the heart to go one more year (much less multiple). So, Pettitte used that as his excuse, knowing the Astros wouldn't match and knowing the Yankees were the only team that would... and left. There you go.

Cat, you seem like a true fan but it also seems like your pretty clueless about this issue.

I've talked to numerous folks directly tied to these issues, and not just the ones with the Astros who might have a biased perspective. I've talked to other players and managers about these things. I research them in depth on a daily basis as part of my job. Meanwhile, you're sitting here whining about Tim Purpura being fat. I'm the one that's "pretty clueless?"

[msn]

fair point on Garner and Purpura but do you really think this is one bad season in a string of good ones? Last season was 82-80 and it took a hell of a run to do that. In addition we are in a poor division in the weak NL.

I think it's time to have a firesale on all non long term pieces that we can move and admit to the fans that 2008 we are gonna be in a rebuild not a patch up mode.
One bad season in a string of good ones? No--at least two. And perhaps more; the Astros are no longer "a player away". You're right--they're a bad team playing horrible baseball in last place in the worst division in the weaker league.

I don't know where I stand on rebuilding. Both sides have compelling takes; I don't have an opinion yet.

[The Cat]

I don't know the guy so I am just gonna guess that he is a baseball only fan because those are the kind of statements "baseball only fans" make.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but whatever the case, I'm pretty sure it's not true. I've followed this team for my entire life, and I cover them on a regular basis right now, so I'm far from someone who doesn't care about the team or doesn't understand this organization. If you're referring to the sport of baseball, I follow basketball, football -- you name it. If it involves sports, I've played it, I watch it, and I've reported on it. And if it involves a Houston organization, believe me, I've followed them for quite a while and have been through the ups and downs.

[texanskan]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but whatever the case, I'm pretty sure it's not true. I've followed this team for my entire life, and I cover them on a regular basis right now, so I'm far from someone who doesn't care about the team or doesn't understand this organization. If you're referring to the sport of baseball, I follow basketball, football -- you name it. If it involves sports, I've played it, I watch it, and I've reported on it. And if it involves a Houston organization, believe me, I've followed them for quite a while and have been through the ups and downs.

fair enough we will agree to disagree but please don't use the Pence should of stayed in AAA longer because they should of had him in Round Rock last summer and not in Corpus IMO

[Mr. Clutch]

So is Purpura going to be fired?

Opinions?

[texanskan]

Cat, as far as Pettitte goes of course they would of overpaid but IT'S A PACKAGE DEAL WITH CLEMENS. Even Lance said that on Sports 610.

[The Cat]

fair enough we will agree to disagree but please don't use the Pence should of stayed in AAA longer because they should of had him in Round Rock last summer and not in Corpus IMO

Again, Pence was a good but not great minor league hitter. Mid to upper .800s OPS. He progressed through the system at an extremely fast rate... only one year at AA, and only three weeks at AAA. To act like he should've gone straight to AAA is irresponsible. Maybe it would've worked out knowing what we know now, but it wouldn't have been a smart baseball decision with the information they had.

Clearly, Pence shouldn't have stayed in AAA longer... he was ready. But no one can know (well, except the 610 and 790 fanboys who know everything). It varies with all prospects. All I was saying was that Purpura took a risk, and it's one that so far has worked out extremely well. Good for him.

[msn]

but IT'S A PACKAGE DEAL WITH CLEMENS. Even Lance said that on Sports 610.
And THAT makes it true, folks. That seals it, right there. :p

[The Cat]

Cat, as far as Pettitte goes of course they would of overpaid but IT'S A PACKAGE DEAL WITH CLEMENS. Even Lance said that on Sports 610.

Now that's sound baseball management right there. A few posts back, you were talking about how this team needs to rebuild. Now, they should've signed an old starting pitcher with a 4.20 ERA (Wandy-esque), a consistently hurt elbow and someone who said they didn't know if they even had one more year left in them to a multi-year deal for $15 million a season, all for the improved chance that a 44-year-old might come out of retirement midseason and pitch for them.

And did I mention that even with the two of them and Berkman and Oswalt at the top of their games (about 1,000 times better than this season), the Astros finished 82-80 a season ago?

And, like msn said... if Lance said it on 610, it must be true. :D

[texanskan]

Now that's sound baseball management right there. A few posts back, you were talking about how this team needs to rebuild. Now, they should've signed an old starting pitcher with a 4.20 ERA (Wandy-esque), a consistently hurt elbow and someone who said they didn't know if they even had one more year left in them to a multi-year deal for $15 million a season, all for the improved chance that a 44-year-old might come out of retirement midseason and pitch for them.

And did I mention that even with the two of them and Berkman and Oswalt at the top of their games (about 1,000 times better than this season), the Astros finished 82-80 a season ago?

And, like msn said... if Lance said it on 610, it must be true. :D

dude, we are not talking about 5 year 80 million dollar deals we are talking about two contracts that span 2 years and 1 year that is all.

Look Drayton will start feeling it when thousansds of folks stop buying season tickets and the Astros fall back to third place in sports fans minds like they were before the Oilers left and when the Rockets were hot.

I don't see how folks can defend not bringing Andy back when the Astros were 0 for 41 years of post season success before he signed and his signing sparked the two best runs in club history and judging by the current leadership in place I don't see another such run coming anytime soon.

[gunn]

Andy Pettitte for two years or Woody for two years....hmm?

[msn]

I don't see how folks can defend not bringing Andy back when the Astros were 0 for 41 years of post season success before he signed and his signing sparked the two best runs in club history and judging by the current leadership in place I don't see another such run coming anytime soon.
Andy. Wanted. To. Go. And if you don't believe that and you're wanting to believe Andy or his agents, then believe Andy when he said that New York was "where God wants me." You want Timmy to override God?? :D

If the Astros made no effort to sign him, I'd agree with you. If they lowballed him, I'd agree with you.

Look, it's not like this is anything new with Andy. Remember when he came here? The same thing with New York: all of the sudden he signs here and says, "I guess they didn't want me anymore," while the Yankees were like, "what? We'd made an initial offer and were waiting to hear back?"

Those details are not going to be correct because I'm going off memory--but the point is there was similar confusion the *first* time Pettitte left a team for free agency. Hey, Andy--why not simply say, "I'm ready to pitch somewhere else."

[Nick]

Look Drayton will start feeling it when thousansds of folks stop buying season tickets and the Astros fall back to third place in sports fans minds like they were before the Oilers left and when the Rockets were hot.


Yep... something all true fans root for... the demise of the owner.

BTW... I guarantee you that the Astros will continue to draw better than they did in the Astrodome for every single year they are at Minute Maid Park.

Going to a baseball game downtown is the most consistent part of the current Houston sports culture... more than any other aspect of pro sports here... and has been so since 2000. They drew 3 million in 2000 (sold out all games down the stretch, despite the mediocre record and no-name players), drew very well for having mediocre teams in 2002 and 2003, and are doing pretty damn well this year despite not having Andy and Roger (they were well over last year's pace months before the Biggio push to 3000 got close).

And since the Texans will sell out every game regardless (and have done so since 2002), and the Rockets play at a different time of the year, I don't see how there will be some direct competition between all three teams that must result in one winner and one loser (so we can all laugh at drayton for being cheap cheap.. "ha! he's so cheap! and Tim's so fat!").

It also helps that MMP simply screams "Astros"... while the other stadiums are blah/generic structures that are built to house several other events. 50 years from now, MMP has a chance to be as "beloved" as the original Astrodome, or any other current old ballpark... while the other structures will either be long-gone, remodeled, or having the same generic feel.

[kaleidosky]

I'm enjoying reading this.

No idea why people think Pettite would have solved this season given the stats we've seen. Or a half-season of Clemens even.. (Roger is 2-4 with a 3.88...and a K rate that has fallen.) But yeah, I have heard from enough people with sources that Pettite was never coming back.. and I thought that was the case anyway.

Pence certainly has been great. But let's not go nuts until he finishes out the season doing pretty well as pitchers see him more. I mean we saw Luke's half season go to crap this year (and hopefully he can pull out of that). Consistency is something that comes with time and experience, and calling someone up early can hurt someone's chances at it.

[pgabriel]

the stadium was new in 2000. time will tell if a mediocre team will continue to draw. if the team remains mediocre, but the stadium is still a relative novelty.

[xiki]

Yep... something all true fans root for... the demise of the owner.

BTW... I guarantee you that the Astros will continue to draw better than they did in the Astrodome for every single year they are at Minute Maid Park.

Going to a baseball game downtown is the most consistent part of the current Houston sports culture... more than any other aspect of pro sports here... and has been so since 2000. They drew 3 million in 2000 (sold out all games down the stretch, despite the mediocre record and no-name players), drew very well for having mediocre teams in 2002 and 2003, and are doing pretty damn well this year despite not having Andy and Roger (they were well over last year's pace months before the Biggio push to 3000 got close).

And since the Texans will sell out every game regardless (and have done so since 2002), and the Rockets play at a different time of the year, I don't see how there will be some direct competition between all three teams that must result in one winner and one loser (so we can all laugh at drayton for being cheap cheap.. "ha! he's so cheap! and Tim's so fat!").

Look at the Rockies, the Jays -- two franchises which were hot HOT HOT til poor onfield results coupled with front office blundering to leave their parks emptied and not-the-place-to-be. A few weeks ago the Yankees sold out Coors with premium pricing, and the team started winning. It may be a start on the road back up. Maybe.

Drayton canNOT retain the level you describe forever withOUT keeping the team relevant. One year is a glitch, but only some unprecedented late runs with local heroes Roger and Andy have kept this from being a long-term crisis here.

IMHO these next few days along with a hot Hot Stove winter are bloody crucial for McLane's Astros. Our Astros.

[Nick]

the stadium was new in 2000. time will tell if a mediocre team will continue to draw. if the team remains mediocre, but the stadium is still a relative novelty.

And will continue to be more of a novelty than any of the other new stadiums (which are newer, and yet have lost their novelty faster), because of the inherent charm built into the ballpark.

Regardless, they will never sink to the mid 90's Astrodome days... where mediocre teams were drawing less than 16,000 people on weeknights.

[Nick]

Look at the Rockies, the Jays -- two franchises which were hot HOT HOT til poor onfield results coupled with front office blundering to leave their parks emptied and not-the-place-to-be. A few weeks ago the Yankees sold out Coors with premium pricing, and the team started winning. It may be a start on the road back up. Maybe.

Drayton canNOT retain the level you describe forever withOUT keeping the team relevant. One year is a glitch, but only some unprecedented late runs with local heroes Roger and Andy have kept this from being a long-term crisis here.

IMHO these next few days along with a hot Hot Stove winter are bloody crucial for McLane's Astros. Our Astros.

I'm not saying they will draw 3 million a year with mediocre teams... I'm saying they won't sink to Astrodome-medicore-team levels.

Situations in Colorado and Toronto are entirely unique. Colorado suffered from the novelty of the ENTIRE TEAM wearing out, not the ballpark. They didn't have any history of success... thus it was easier for fans to turn on them (especially a baseball team that plays 81 games a year). If the Broncos never won another game in that city, it wouldn't stop people from going... despite the inherent power of the NFL.

Toronto suffered more from the strike than any other team... by the time they started playing again, the World Series team they had was dismantled, and the Yankees started spending more and more to become the eventual dynasty in that division (affecting EVERY team in that division... including the Orioles). Additionally, their stadium became old/outdated as its essentially a "cookie-cutter" with a retractable roof.

[Nick]

Cleveland is actually a better comparison... they sold out for nearly 3-4 straight years before the team became mediocre (but now good again).

But regardless of how bad they were, they didn't sink to the Municipal Stadium levels they were at in the late 80's, early 90's. They also happen to feature a ballpark that is the most unique of the 3 stadiums, and continue to draw well despite the competition from the Lebrons.

The only question is, which is a better sports/bandwagon town... Cleveland or Houston.

[xiki]

Cleveland is actually a better comparison... they sold out for nearly 3-4 straight years before the team became mediocre (but now good again).

But regardless of how bad they were, they didn't sink to the Municipal Stadium levels they were at in the late 80's, early 90's. They also happen to feature a ballpark that is the most unique of the 3 stadiums, and continue to draw well despite the competition from the Lebrons.

The only question is, which is a better sports/bandwagon town... Cleveland or Houston.

The problem is one of momentum. If the Toy Shop seated 16 thou as did the Summit er laptop the empty seats would have been filled with the perception of success. The Rox would not have become irrelevant (even with Yao and TMac).

To keep butts in seats a team has to retain the 'it' factor. When I lived in Cleveland nearly 20 years ago I was in awe of Browns-mania but was assured, just wait and see if the Tribe ever starts winning. When I returned just to see a game at the Jake years later I was reminded of what I had been told.

The Rockets' luster faded with the crash caused by Hakeem's mortality and Pip/Barkley. It is still not back (just ask Steve Wasserman what it was like when he took over Ch 2 as the Rox repeated).

The Orioles' owner is their biggest albatros and Drayton is not Angelos. But the Astros run the risk of being Rockied-Jayed-or worse yet Angelosed if they do not respond aggressively now (or during Hot Stove).

Jayson Stark says zero good pitchers are available. Does that mean Roy O (or Lidge) might be able to return a King's Ransom? Someone may believe Jennings just needs a new start (yeah, right) but a deal would have to beat draft choice compensation if he signed as an FA in November. I love Berkman but he is without a position, so could he bring a King's Ransom himself? I am not advocating anyone specifically but I am pushing for Drayton/Purpura to push hard to see if some team is ready to rock'n'roll (the reeling Bosox?).

Lamb and Loretta (and Palmiero?) ought to be worth something with which to build in '08 (or '09). Qualls or Wheeler ought to be marketable. Sell high if there is a chance, but just don't give talent away.

[Jared Novak]

To answer a question on the front page, yes I am sick of hearing Pupura talk about how much talent is on this team. And I agree with Jeff that if the team was banking on Ensberg having a comeback year and return to 4th-place-MVP-form, then Purpura should be fired on that notion alone. The fact of the matter is that the Jennings trade was a bad one, Drayton tightened his purse strings too quickly and didn't allow Purpura to try and acquire more talent to cover our deficiencies and this team needs to be rebuilt.

As far as Pettitte was never coming back, its true, completely and totally true. One of my co-workers is a long time family friend of the Pettittes and he was calling this in the middle of the season last year. Andy wanted to go back to NY. The retirement talk was posturing at best, his eyes and those of the Hendricks brothers were always on the Big Apple. It also didn't hurt that Purpura has a genuine dislike for the Hendricks Bros., but he is a professional and wouldn't let that interfere in negotiating to bring a player of Pettitte's caliber back.

Purpura targeted Jon Garland, who is in his own right a decent to good pitcher who would look great in our rotation. At the eleventh hour there were concerns about Taylor Buchholz's arm and Ken Williams being the good GM he is (and he hates giving up pitching) decided to rescind the deal. Purpura panicked and made a bad deal to acquire Jason Jennings (whose numbers have looked good the past couple of years). Unfortunately he didn't do his homework and Jennings started having arm trouble in the middle of last season. We lost out on that trade, time to move on. For the record Garland isn't having all that great a year anyway.

I'll probably get flamed for this but Drayton McLane cheaped out on the Astros' payroll. Some of you will ask,"J how did this man who gave Carlos Lee and $100 million dollar contract cheap out?" Well he cheaped out by not letting Purpura go out and get another starter. It was no secret that with the loss of the BronxBack Mountain Boys that we had two holes on our rotation. IMHO the Astros badly needed to acquire a second starter along with Williams. Up to this point we are really lucky that Rodriguez has performed as well as he has. I wanted to see the Astros make a run for Jason Marquis or Jeff Suppan, both of those pitchers got boo-coo bucks and the rest of the free agent pitchers out there were overpriced, but unfortunately thats what the market bears. All this talk about the Clemens fund has always been crap to me. If you're willing to spend money to get Clemens who you think will put you over the top, then why not spend that money on another player to help you stay in contention in the first place? Another thought that comes to mind is that we were all up in arms that we didn't have a first or second round pick, but the spin on that was there was more money in the piggy bank to sign draft picks. Neither of the top two picks (rounds 3 & 4) are signed as of yet, Bettis decided to go to Texas Tech instead of joining the Astros and word is that Chad Jones will most likely not be signed due to signability issues. What happened to that extra cash? The plan was to take chances drafting good talent that may have posed challenges to signing and yet this may be the exact reason we lose out on Jones.

I continue to hear that Pence, Lee, Oswalt and Berkman are out core players that shouldn't be traded. I disagree, because if I could trade any player from that group it would be Carlos Lee. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for what he has done to help the team this year (I can't imagine how much worse we would be without him). But Lee is a "put you over the top player" he was the slugger we sorely lacked last season, but he really serves no purpose this year other than keeping the team afloat. I know that sounds harsh, but if we go into a rebuilding mode, then a slugger like Carlos Lee and a closer like Lidge can net you the most in return. Now I'm not suggesting going Florida Marlins and trade every player for prospects, but identify what you need and try to target those players in other organizations. There is always a demand for sluggers and Lee could get you a nice return. Ditto for Lidge, we've all heard that Boston, Detroit, NY Mets, etc. all covet Lidge, but what can we get in return?

At this point we have to ask ourselves, are we going to rebuild? And if so what is our plan? What is our projected timeline? If you traded Lee and Lidge, you'd get at least three prospects apiece (one blue chipper, one decent, one marginal). Nonetheless, the Astros have along way to go toward rebuilding and the sooner that McLane, Purpura and Co. realize that the faster we can start rebuilding and getting some younger guys in the minors some much needed playing time.

[Nick]

I wanted to see the Astros make a run for Jason Marquis or Jeff Suppan, both of those pitchers got boo-coo bucks and the rest of the free agent pitchers out there were overpriced, but unfortunately thats what the market bears.

I stopped reading right here.

In many ways, having Jennings struggle may be a slight blessing in disguise (in terms of rebuilding/reloading)... there's no way the Astros can afford to make a mistake on signing any pitcher to a long-term deal who's not going to live up to it. Hell, they may have to worry about Oswalt and Berkman (who were as sure of a thing as there was in baseball just one year ago) living up to their long deals.

You are right, however, it is still all about pitching. 2004 showed that you can get by with 2 stellar starters, a great bullpen, and a streaky offense. 2005 showed that you can get by with 3 stellar starters, a great bullpen, and zero offense.

Unfortunately, neither Suppan nor Jason Marquis make this team all that much better to mask the other guys' struggles... Suppan is solid but older, and Marquis is simply a headcase whom the Cubs overpaid despite the market... and if you sign them, you definitely are handcuffed, payroll wise, for the next 5 years.

[Ric]

Taveras wasn't the principle... he never was and never will be. Hirsh was. Hirsh built a reputation as a top prospect based on his minor league results, but the Astros knew he was overachieving and that his talent likely meant he wouldn't have the kind of results some people were anticipating.
cat, i've repeatedly heard taveras WAS the principle, that he afforded the rockies a wealth of viable options, both intenrally as well as externally, that really appealed to them: they could keep him and move other players or trade him because (reportedly) several teams were interested in him (florida and the white sox being the ones mentioned most often).

plus, it's a bit naive to think the astros were the only ones who recognized hirsh was overachieving. if their concerns had been rooted in things he was doing in the clubhouse or behind the scenes, i can see where they might have been able to sell him high.

but you specifically mentioned his "talent" - if he was dealt because he was overrated, that's something most teams are smart enough to sniff out, especially organizations that seem pretty adept at developing young talent. like, for instance, colorado.

The roster is put together fine. The problems come from a combination of star players underachieving, the Biggio issue and a limited farm system, which is directly at the hands of Hunsicker.
points 2 and 3, imo, sling more mud at the deal - bringing biggio back forced their hand with burke and, by extension, taveras - they allowed circumstances, and not play on the field, to dictate a direction. meanwhile, trading away 3 25-year olds so your .500 team can add a middle of the road pitcher in the final year of his contract is one of the reasons why the farm system is limited. not the ONLY reason, but certainly one of 'em.

as for the underachivers tag - i just don't see it. on march 31, our top five hitters projected to be berkman (career OPS of .970); ensberg/lamb (.842/.767); lee (.838); scott (.786); burke (.706), plus ausmus, biggio and everett.

as august approaches, our top five hitters are pence (.929); lee (.873); lamb (.858); berkman (.827); loretta (.785), plus ausmus, biggio and everett. pence is ranked 6th in BA, lee 2nd in RsBI.

if anything, the offense has overachieved. the pitchers, especially, the bullpen, have certainly been worse than expected. but the bullpen was an issue last year, too. but some of the downturn in the pitching performance has to be tied to the team's below average defense, which got worse with everett's injury, sure - but everett was likely to see his playing time reduced, anyway, so loretta's bat could be in the everyday line-up.

they have one of the worst defensive OF in baseball (which pence is actually making better as he seems to be an upgrade, of sorts, to burke) and when biggio's in the line-up along with loretta, one of the worst defensive infields in baseball.

what really irks me is all the praise we heaped on purpura for having the courage to stick with his guys in '05. i frankly found most of it a bit over the top (did he REALLY stick with 'em, or have no alternatives?), but, fine: they were his guys, he believed in them, and it worked out - well done. so where did that approach go? why did he bail on hirsh and buchholz for jennings? and give up on taveras?

to me, it reeks of an organization without a clear-cut plan.

[Nick]

The problem is one of momentum. If the Toy Shop seated 16 thou as did the Summit er laptop the empty seats would have been filled with the perception of success. The Rox would not have become irrelevant (even with Yao and TMac).

It only seats 18,000... 2,000 more. Several games since the opening of the Toyota Center have featured around the 11-12,000 mark (which would have been bad in the Summit).

As I already said, Colorado and Toronto are unique situations that don't compare well with the Astros. The Cleveland and Baltimore siutations do compare well.

The main point is that the team would have to be summarily gutted, and Drayton would have to sink to Kansas City Royals-type payroll if they were to ever sink to the irrevelance they had in the early 90's Astrodome days. The strike also played a big role in fostering that irrevelance from 94-97.

1998 was good for baseball (McGwire-Sosa), good for the Astros (Randy Johnson, new stadium broke ground), and started the momentum of actual excitement in April/October that this city hadn't experienced much of since 86. Having that momentum peak in the new ballpark (as it did in Cleveland) went miles towards fostering some life-long Astro fans, and turning a day at a Houston ballpark into much more than simply going to some random sports game (like a Texans and Rockets game currently feels like).

The Rockets do have a chance to take over the city again... and they've had that chance every year of the Yao Ming/T-Mac era... I'm just saying that the Astros weren't irrelevant simply because of their success. It had a lot to do with the ballpark, the way Drayton refused to spend after the Drabek/Swindell fiascos, and the state of baseball overall.

[Nick]

as august approaches, our top five hitters are pence (.929); lee (.873); lamb (.858); berkman (.827); loretta (.785), plus ausmus, biggio and everett. pence is ranked 6th in BA, lee 2nd in RsBI.
Just imagine if Berkman actually hit his career OPS number, instead of being mired in his current career WORST OPS (which most batters, Carlos Lee especially, would take in a second).


the pitchers, especially, the bullpen, have certainly been worse than expected. but the bullpen was an issue last year, too. but some of the downturn in the pitching performance has to be tied to the team's below average defense, which got worse with everett's injury, sure - but everett was likely to see his playing time reduced, anyway, so loretta's bat could be in the everyday line-up.
Not just worse... MUCH worse than expected. Oswalt has never ever ever had an ERA this bad at any point in his MLB career this far along into the season. The bullpen last year had issues with mainly ONE guy... who still managed to convert 31 of 36 saves. They got reliable contributions from Qualls, Wheeler, and Trever Miller. This year, all three of them have SUCKED, while Lidge has been hurt (hell, even with the 5+ ERA, he was at least closing out games... eating innings/appearences).

As for the defense, yes infield defense has been awful... especially when you have 3-4 groundball pitchers in your rotation/bullpen (Oswalt, Jennings, Sampson, Qualls especially). Ideally, Loretta could play 3rd, Everett SS, Burke 2B, and Lance/Lamb 1st... that would be the best defense/hitting combo they could put together.

As for the outfield defense... it falls well behind the other issues mentioned above... but did need improving once it was shown Burke couldn't handle the job out there (see, speed doesn't make up for everything).

[The Cat]

Andy Pettitte for two years or Woody for two years....hmm?

Yeah, it was clearly a decision between the two... it had nothing to do with one requiring $15 million per year for those two years and the other requiring only $6 million... oh wait.

[Ric]

Just imagine if Berkman actually hit his career OPS number, instead of being mired in his current career WORST OPS.
last year, berkman's WARP was 8.5 - it's a projection of how many wins he alone is worth to a team above replacing him in the line-up with a league average player.

so the astros would be 49-46 - roughly; that's not really all together accurate since, even struggling, berkman is performing above league average. but i'll give you the full 9 wins... and we're still skating around .500. and i'm not sure pence is here if berkman had been "berkman" all year.

[Nick]

last year, berkman's WARP was 8.5 - it's a projection of how many wins he alone is worth to a team above replacing him in the line-up with a league average player.

so the astros would be 49-46 - roughly; that's not really all together accurate since, even struggling, berkman is performing above league average. but i'll give you the full 9 wins... and we're still skating around .500. and i'm not sure pence is here if berkman had been "berkman" all year.

That's actually a bigger impact than I expected for Berkman alone. What is Oswalt's WARP? He's certainly doing a similiar thing (peforming above league average, but well below his average).

But, these guys aren't getting paid 14 million dollars a year to merely be above league average... going into this season, each was a top 3 batter and top 3 pitcher in the NL respectively. Now, one was barely an undeserved all-star (merely on reputation).

And hell, Pence may get called up if Willy performs as bad as he did for Colorado to start the season here... I don't understand why that speculation even needs to be addressed. I've never defended them for not having him up here to start the season (hell, I had 3 separate conversations with him at spring training this year... I'm a big fan). The topic is how good would they be currently if Berkman/Oswalt were hitting their career averages.

[gunn]

Yeah, it was clearly a decision between the two... it had nothing to do with one requiring $15 million per year for those two years and the other requiring only $6 million... oh wait.

Which would you rather have?

[The Cat]

Which would you rather have?

Clearly I'd prefer Pettitte, but it's irrelevant to evaluating Purpura. He wasn't the one who created the budget; all he can do is work with the money he's given.

Besides, I'm not sure how many times it needs to be said... Andy didn't want to be here. Sadly, it was that simple.

[Refman]

Bandwagon fans, women and children "root for the good guys"
Actually, bandwagon fans only root for the team when they are winning. Hence the name bandwagon.

It's Garner's fault this team looks like the bad news bears out there
How? How is it Garner's fault that players are performing well below their normal expectations? How is it Garner's fault that Wheeler has underperformed? Jennings? Berkman?

I blame both Purpura and Drayton for the terrible off season but you can't fire the owner so Tim needs to go.
So you can get somebody else who will have to get Drayton's approval, thus can only make marginal or stupid deals? Odd...

[xiki]

As I already said, Colorado and Toronto are unique situations that don't compare well with the Astros. The Cleveland and Baltimore siutations do compare well.

The main point is that the team would have to be summarily gutted, and Drayton would have to sink to Kansas City Royals-type payroll if they were to ever sink to the irrevelance they had in the early 90's Astrodome days. The strike also played a big role in fostering that irrevelance from 94-97.




If the 'stros fail to 'strike back', ie if Drayton et al fail to infuse talent thus excitement and hope, then Colorado and Toronto histories are plenty valid.

This 'administration' needs to make use of it'[s 'baseball capital', or their approval ratings will sink, and stay sunk for the indefinite future.

[DOMINATOR]

How? How is it Garner's fault that players are performing well below their normal expectations? How is it Garner's fault that Wheeler has underperformed? Jennings? Berkman?
how can this team be so inconsistent? how can they suck so bad in the first half then do well in the second half since he's been here?

[Refman]

how can this team be so inconsistent? how can they suck so bad in the first half then do well in the second half since he's been here?
Nobody knows. I don't. You don't. Drayton doesn't. Garner doesn't. I would think that only the almighty knows that answer to that one.

[hatemavs4life]

And Lane and Ensberg were supposed to be significant contributors.

DING!