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Jovi
02-21-2000, 04:18 PM
Here we go again.

About 1/3 of our repition for the finals deals with America (history, utopia, racism etc). We read through a text that started with the task "Write down 5 adjectives that describe Americans"...here´s was we think YOU are :

-Superficial

-Proud

-Extreme

-Prudish

-Ambitious

Honorable mention: religious, innovative, racist ...

Agree?

Before you rip me off, let me add one thing: I am very well aware what you think of the Germans...

Johannes

BrianKagy
02-21-2000, 04:36 PM
"Extreme" and "racist"....?

This, coming from Germans?

Jovi
02-21-2000, 05:21 PM
Germany, of course, has been plagued by racism, but in general, we don´t have those kind of problems any more -- in contrast to America.

Unfortunately (and that´s what we don´t/can´t understand), racism in the USA is a much bigger problem than it is over here.

This is not meant as an insult.

BrianKagy
02-21-2000, 05:27 PM
Really? (http://www.germanyalert.com)

MoonDogg
02-21-2000, 06:07 PM
Hey Krautboy....
As for your "racist" comments, any country with the ethnic diversity and freedom of the US is gonna have racism. Wanna know why we're so diverse? Cuz everyone wants to live the "AMERICAN" dream. I don't see that many people rushing to be part of the great Doucheland.

I don't recall Germany ever being such a melting pot. Oh yeah..that's right you guys thought that the master race was a bunch of Arian clones and attempted to exterminate those that were different. Look where that got ya! If I remember correctly, it got your butts kicked by us racist Americans fighting in the name of freedom.

Why are you bringing this up here anyway. This is a Rockets board...crawl back in your hole Hitler youth candidate.

Rocketman95
02-21-2000, 06:34 PM
Wow MoonDogg, I guess you believe that there is no racism in America.

Jovi was just asking a simple question. Kagy offered proof that Jovi's country is also racist.

But I can't think of any of those adjectives that aren't true, except maybe the prudish one.

However, there's no need to blast Jovi. He's a regular that doesn't deserve that. It's not like his post was a rant against all Americans on this board. He just wanted to share his, and his fellow Germans' opinions regarding America. Then you go and do the same thing (worse) that you are so pissed off at Jovi for doing.

Which one of those adjectives do you disagree with.

Except for prudish, they're all pretty much true.

Probably for Germany as well.

Jovi
02-21-2000, 06:39 PM
BK: You should be smart enough to know what I mean by adding "in general". I did not say that there is no racism in Germany any more, of course, we know about the NPD and DVU (especially in East Germany).
Perhaps it would have been better if I had been more precise.

I´ve read many of your posts and (you know that I respect you) it´s always easy to defend yourself by attacking somone who has attacked you. Whenever you don´t want to answer a question, just rip your counterpart.

I can understand that you, especially MoonDogg, react quite angry when a German considers you racist. We should rather blame ourselves...I don´t want to discuss about Germany´s history now. Believe me, it´s not easy, especially when you talk to hot-blooded freedom fighters MD.

Let me therefore delete "racist". I don´t have to be called a Hitler Youth candidate and a Krautboy, it´s not worth it.

Ace
02-21-2000, 07:42 PM
Um, ok. Do we really have to do this?
I just can't understand why so many Americans think the USA is perfect in every way and get offended when someone makes the slightest little comment. Damn it, every country has gone through something that darkens its history.
Granted, I think Jovi was going for the insult, but I don't get why some of you had to respond by calling Jovi a Nazi. Jeesh...

Anyway, I guess most Americans fail to realize that your government supported laws, which were set against the black population.
Who was humiliated when Japan asked for "equality" during the negotiations for the League of Nations?
The American government was then, as now, ruled by many, not by the wishes of one person, as in Nazi Germany.
Fact is, there will always be prejudice. Always. However, you must also be able to tolerate others, which most people are able to do. I often suffer through this, whether I like it or not. When I think about Germany, I immediately think about Nazi Germany and the atrocities related to it. I then have to remind myself that this is not the same Germany and that I should look past it. Seems like some of you here can’t do that…
It only takes an extremist leader like Hitler to bring and exploit matters like racism to the surface.
Don't you think that it could've been possible for the United States itself to come to this? Imagine: It is early 1930's. The country has been brought to its knees by the depression. Widespread poverty and inflation plague the country.
Now instead of Roosevelt, comes a Ku Klux Klan leader (the Klan's all time high was during the 20's and 30's, by the way). He promises the country everything they want to be promised and says all the right things. On the other hand, you have a mediocre president who can't do anything right. Wouldn't it be possible for this leader to gradually get more and more support and finally control of the country?
What do you think he would do? He would try to wipe out the black population.

MoonDogg,

Please don't give me that "American Dream" crap. I love the United States, but there are other countries which are just as enjoyable to live in. Try and realize that the United States is not every man's dream.
Now you're just telling me that the USA is the best in the world and that Germany is a piece of crap.
What the hell was the original point anyway? Was it not that all are equal? You really put the Americans down with your post.

Jovi,

What’s your point? You know that everyone is going to come after you now. I think many people share the same views about Americans, and maybe even about Germans. But what are you going to achieve by posting this on an American board? You should keep these conversations to your circle of friends, for your sake.


About the points given. Please don't tell me that all are not true. Proud: Who keeps referring to the USA as the "greatest country in the world"??? I don't care...it is in some ways. Superficial: So obvious for so many (by this I mean that many are) that I don't have to explain it.
Some of the points given by Jovi aren't even insults at all...

I don’t even know what the point of my post us, it just seems like drivel when reading it…but I don’t have time to write anymore so I’ll end it here.


------------------
Francis+Charles+Dream-Pippen= Rockets 2000 NBA
Champions

Houston Rockets Space Center (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/6544)

sirhangover
02-21-2000, 07:55 PM
why jovi?why are you doing this... Germans are arrogant..cold..proud..non- humorous..efficient..racist..and unable to see the light....a.k.a. closeminded..

I know how the germans treat the pakistani population there and it is not pretty talk about racism....you are a culture so intent on racism that I cant believe you are writing this way...i have been to germany nice place...crappy food....but i would never go on a german bbs and call them all these things in light of history TRUTH and public perception...you just set yourself up for this...like moondog said we are a melting pot of diversity and racism is a byproduct of that yet not a lifestyle that the german population now.. and since a long time have lived by...

what about your consistent 15% unemployment? your corrupt government Helmut Kohl ring a bell?what about the fact that everyone in europe is so quick to cut us down yet receive foreign aid from us..military aid..commerce..whatever then you want to come on here and tell us you and your colleagues perception of how crap we are....easy for you to judge ..what do you know about us but some chumps from wisconsin that want to see the bradenburg gate that have never stepped outside of kenosha each weigh 400 lbs and do us a great injustice by their representation..i agree there are many social problems in the US but an out of touch german with no idea except a five day trip to disney world is not going to leave a lasting impression on you just like the d*ckhead that stole my camera in heidelberg...is everyone in germany thiefs? I am smart enough to know that is not the case..come on man for such a great country (that all germans claim to be from) for such reknowned engineering prowess and for all the things about germany that make is a nice place you want to demean yourself by judging americans with such hypocrisy...why do we get so many immigrants every year...because if you want a job here you can get it if motivation is included...know that...it means something...

try get the EU together learn to celebrate your situation as a motivated culture and do something productive besides gummy bears and lame ass topics like the one here....speak from experience and your perceptions... to me your perception is negative and without substance is doesnt prove anything...i lived in spain a fellow EU and I could preach all that is wrong but its not in my nature...i am not german you could say... and do not feel the inferiortiy that you display taking the time to post this kind of crap...

sorry we have a better standard of living with hot water in the winter and less unemployment.....but lets not highlight our bad side jovi the list for germany i assure you is much longer.. but attacking us like that was a joke anyway and is the reason why we still cant trust you germans....

It is what it is jovi..look at your self before you move to judge us....

Rocketman95
02-21-2000, 08:08 PM
Guys, Jovi was not trying to pick a fight (but the point is being made). What he always does is share his experiences of growing up and being schooled in Germany to us Americans.

Not once did he call all of us racist. He shared with us what his fellow classmates felt.

I, for one, think that Jovi's posts like this are very interesting.

I guess that makes me un-American.

So be it.

[This message has been edited by Rocketman95 (edited February 21, 2000).]

DREAMer
02-21-2000, 08:35 PM
I agree with Rocketman95. Jovi was not trying to "put Americans down" or "pick a fight". He was just stating what many Germans think of us.

I think it's refreshing to see an outsiders view of the U.S. I myself love this country, but sometimes hate its history.

I think sometimes Jovi's English or use of the language is not up to the level of a native of an English speaking country. This causes problems, especially when he's trying to express himself. Many people take what he says the wrong way.

Now, on what he said:

-Superficial
-Proud
-Extreme
-Prudish
-Ambitious
Honorable mention: religious, innovative, racist ...

I don't find any of those as insulting. I see a lot of truth in those descriptions. Of course, it's more of a caricature of an American, than an average citizen. But, what else are people in other countries going to think? They can only form their opinions from what they are exposed to.

Dr of Dunk
02-21-2000, 09:26 PM
One thing about labelling a culture or nation as being this or that... it's foolish. You cannot label all Americans as being superficial, proud, etc. because they are not. There are lazy bastards, underpriviledged people that can't do better, killers, racists, and very bright entrepreneurs in all cultures. I've always had a problem with describing a culture under one umbrella. I hate it. I'd much rather concentrate on the individuals, because that is what makes up the cultures. America is the leading country in terms of technology in various areas, but if you accept that, then accept that several immigrants are aiding in that progress and revolution. Several Asians, Germans, Africans, etc. are helping lead this country in the Internet race whether it be via venture capitalism, hardware for the 'Net, or simply ideas.

America's greatest singlemost asset is its ability to attract incredible minds and philosophies through the freedom it offers.

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trade them all and fire the coach.


[This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited February 21, 2000).]

MoonDogg
02-22-2000, 12:24 AM
Jovi:

I don't understand the reason for your post in the first place. That's like me saying that I heard in some class that all Germans were Nazis. It's just inflammatory flamebait.
But I do have to agree with sirhangover. Most...but not all Germans I've ever met were extremely cold and arrogant.
One last thing...Excuse the hell outta me for not putting up with your *****; but I have family buried on the soil of your great homeland. Family that died fighting for this great country and freedom worldwide and I resent your stereotypical comments concerning the US.

Rocketman95:

READ the first sentence in my post. Of course there's racism in America. But not all Americans are racist, which Jovi seems to have implied. In fact you can apply those terms to certain people in ALL countries.

Hey Ace:

Don't give me your "if", "ands", and "buts" crap. If Hitler had conquered the world...where would you be? It always irks me the amount of anti-American sentiment that's spewed forth from countries that probably wouldn't even exist if it were not for the US.

DREAMer
02-22-2000, 03:15 AM
MoonDogg,

I don't want to argue with you. It's obvious you are passionate on this subject. But, I do have a few comments.

My grandfather on my Dad's side fought in WWII. My great-grandfather on my Mom's side is from Poland. So, it's not like I'm speaking without some vested interest. But, you know what? I don't have one bit of animosity toward Germans as individuals. Sure, I dislike 'groups' like the Neo-Nazis, or ultra-right wing radicals, etc, but I'll give just about everyone a chance.

Also, Jovi telling us the results of a poll taken in one of his classes is nothing like you telling us you heard that all Germans were Nazis in one of your classes. Jovi was letting us know how a segment of people in a different country views us.

What I don't get is how can someone be so ultra-pro-America and yet condemn every perceived wrongful act by another country. We had our own 'holocaust' right here in the U.S., it's called slavery. We also commited genocide (as with the Nazis and Jews) against Native Americans. What really gets me pissed off is not only did we out and out fight and kill Indians, but that our very own government would send blankets infested with the smallpox virus to Indian communities, just to kill them. C'mon, what kind of bullshlt is that? We're also the only country to have used atomic weapons against another country. We've funded, assisted, and trained so many guerilla forces it's not even funny. I'd actually be okay with funding guerillas, if I thought that the gov't was doing it in the name of 'democracy', but so many times it's not. How about the U.S. helping to oust a democratically elected president (Did you just read what I typed? The people in that country voted him in, the people wanted him, but guess who didn't .... us) in Chile, and propping up a dictator who has been accused of crimes against humanity? Latin America alone has been just the little red-headed step child of the U.S. for nearly a century.

To tell you the truth, if there was another country out there doing what we do, you'd hate them for it. You'd want them to mind their own business, and stop butting in where they were not needed. And, if that country ever did something to us, you'd feel the same way countries like: Iran, Iraq, China, Libya, much of Africa, much of eastern block countries, all of Latin America, etc feel towards us.

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I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.

Jovi
02-22-2000, 11:36 AM
Ace:
I was not going for the insult, but nobviously, my post was of a provocative nature. Some of you might remember my former posts about Texas and the prejudices my teacher has http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

In a way, RM95 and DREAMer are right: I wanted to share my views AND confront you with the prejudices many people have over here (not just in Germany, but in Europe) . It was provocative, yes, but I did not expect to be harrassed like this, although I´m sitting in a glasshouse and should not......

Let me try to explain you why we consider you:

- proud: Ace is right on. You always talk about the being the best, greatest country in the whole wide world. There´s nothing wrong with being proud of your country, in fact, everyone is. Before MoonDogg will jump at me again, let me add that we are not proud of our history (especially Hitler). There are many things we can be proud of: The Wirtschaftswunder, the reunification etc...we don´t "live" our pride like Americans -- we can´t because we´d be considered Nazis if we hissed a flag every morning.

- superficial: definitely. hard to explain, but you know it´s true.

- ambitious: that´s one thing I like about the USA: thanks to the frontier spirit, America has developed into the leading world power. just look at the Wallstreet or Silicon Valley. That´s where guys make a fortune/new technical inventions are created...Americans know how to make money and be successful.

extreme: I don´t really agree with this one, but you can perhaps explain this "prejudice" by looking at relegions in the US. Your constitution allows sects/cults to do whatever they like, e.g. a minister of some strange church can preach ANYTHING about racism, no matter how racist (i.e. harrassing) his ideas and views are.
Plus, we don´t have that many "extreme" sects over here..from the Armish to the Mormons to the ...whatever...

racist: Don´t close your eyes. Nearly everything you hear about America is connected with racism. Naturally, not every American is a racist, but racism is a much bigger issue over there than it is over here. EVERY film, as well as every book, about America touches the subject of racism...you get the idea...Germany´s problems with racism are different and can therefore not be compared to the US.

Sirhangover: I´m free to have my own opinion, even after looking at myself.

"That´s why we can´t trust you" --> who is looking narrow-minded now?

PhiSlammaJamma
02-22-2000, 04:09 PM
I have never found a more accurate writer in my lifetime than Charles Dickens. The except below does not tell the whole story about his view on Americans and his trip to America, but it begins to paint a portrait of our character in this way...

"But I may be pardoned if, on such a theme as the general character of the American people, and the general character of their social system, as presented to a stranger's eyes, I desire to express my own opinions in a few words, before I bring these volumes to a close.

They are, by nature, frank, brave, cordial, hospitable, and affectionate. Cultivation and refinement seem but to enhance their warmth of heart and ardent enthusiasm; and it is the possession of these latter qualities in a most remarkable degree which renders an educated American one of the most endearing and most generous of friends. I never was so won upon as by this class; never yielded up my full confidence and esteem so readily and pleasurably as to them; never can make again, in half a year, so many friends for whom I seem to entertain the regard of half a life.

These qualities are natural, I implicitly believe, to the whole people. That they are, however, sadly sapped and blighted in their growth among the mass; and that there are influences at work which endanger them still more, and give but little present promise of their healthy restoration, is a truth that ought to be told.

It is an essential part of every national character to pique itself mightily upon its faults, and to deduce tokens of its virtue or its wisdom from their very exaggeration. One great blemish in the popular mind of America, and the prolific parent of an innumerable brood of evils, is Universal Distrust. Yet the American citizen plumes himself upon this spirit....

For more...(Views on Niagra Falls, Boston, NYC, slavery ect...) (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new?id=DicAmer&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=18&division=div)

hope that's better - Keeley

[This message has been edited by keeley (edited February 25, 2000).]

Lynus302
02-22-2000, 06:28 PM
Okay, okay. Enough with the bitching.

I've travelled the world, so I have alot of first-hand, American point-of-view experience here.

First off, Jovi:
Surely you realized that this would piss off a good number of people on this board seeing as how we're, well, Americans (for the most part, anyway). After re-reading your posts, I decided not to post the original flame I had written. I figured it much better to offer my experiences here instead of bashing you. Besides, I don't have class for a few hours and I don't have anything better to do.

Let me begin by saying I have more than a passing interest in prejudice and stereotypes. I've always found it interesting/ridiculous what people believe about other people(s)when they have little to no basis for their beliefs.

What Americans know about Europeans if we were to believe the stereotypes:

1. The English are all snotty with bad teeth and warm beer.
A: Some are snotty. This says nothing, though. I know plenty of Americans who are as well.
B: Dental Hygiene not what is is here, but its not like everyones teeth are falling out. This one is true, though. I've had relatives come all the way to the US just to see a good dentist.
C: Is the beer warm? For the most part, yes. Most of Europe thinks we're all crazy for wanting to put ice cubes into our sodas. Thats just the ways they like their beer, which really isn't 'warm,' just not nearly as ice-cold as we like it here. Europe's beer tastes better to, warm or not.

2.The Scots are all cheap, patriotic drunks.
A: I don't really know how they got the tag of being cheap. I'm very frugal, but hey, I'm in college so its not like I have a ton of money anyway. I'm sure I've been called cheap, but I can deal with that.
B: The Scots are very independent and very patriotic. So are Americans. The difference is that Scotland never forgave England for taking over a hundreds of years ago. Sound familiar to all ya'll Southerners who might resent all those damned Yankees? Now don't flame me for that, I've got plenty of Yankee family up "Nawth," and no my Southern pride has nothing to do with racism, so you can just stop right there.

3. The Welsh are all "Sheep-shagging bastards."---When I asked some English friends why they didn't like the Welsh, that was the best answer they could give me. Beats me.

4. The French are not only snotty, but incredibly rude, incredibly smelly, and the females are incredibly hairy.
A: Sorry to any persons of French ancestry, but I've been there four times and I've yet to have had a good experience with the French. I'm sure there simply must be some people there with some manners and good personal hygiene, so I hate to brand everyone in that country with such a label. Then again, maybe the polite people slept in when I was there.

5. The Irish are all patriotic drunks.
A: Just fill in what I wrote for Scotland. Its more or less for the same reasons.

6. The Polish are none too bright, none too attractive, and are all drunks.
A: Architecturally speaking, the older structures in the country are beautiful landmarks in the countrys history, but the stuff built in the last 50 or so years was built under the communists, who are known for having buildings that are very utilitarian in nature and are hardly things to look at. Anything built under the Soviets looks like a freaking prison high-rise. As for all the jokes we've all heard about Polish women: I've been there, folks, and there are some damn fine women in Poland.

7. The Italians are all a bunch of cowards.
A: They got this tag during WWII when Mussolini decided to invade Ethopia. Back then a troop of Boy Scouts with BB guns could have defeated Ethopia.

8. Finally on to Germany, who are all a bunch of beer-swilling, master-race Nazis with superior automotive engineering.
A: I love Germany, but I've only been to Bavaria in the southern part of the country. Jovi, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told that the Northerners, who I think were referred to as Berliners, have a saying about the Bavarians which goes something like this: "The only time a Bavarian opens his mouth is to pour in more beer."
B: Seems to me like Germany really wishes Hitler had never happened (who doesn't), much like the American South wishes slavery had never happened. I'm proud of my Southern heritage, and we have some history we'd like to forget as well.
C: Mercedes, BMW: awesome vehicles. Period.

I have nothing but good things to say about the Germans. Of all the places I've been (more than I've listed here) the Germans have been the most polite, the most helpful, and the most fun. I was in Munich just last summer for the second time, and I loved it. It was one of the best trips I've ever taken. Jovi, maybe we had a beer together and didn't even know it. The Hofbrauhaus is one of the best places in the world, IMHO.

One other thought on American thoughts toward Europe is that they drink too much. Well, you just have to understand that drinking is a social function in Europe, and is a great cultural tradition. People just like to have a few drinks at the end of the day is all. There's always a pub within walking distance, unlike here in the states. We Americans have such taboos on alcohol, it is no wonder drunk driving and under-age drinking are such problems here in the US. Europe doesn't have these problems to the extent we do because the issue is NOT taboo. The religious right would have us believe alcohol is one of the greatest sins in the history of mankind. Other parts of the world who we consider to drink too much consider us to be stick-in-the-mud religious fanatics who desperately need to loosen up.

And a final comment:
Everywhere I've ever been (with the exception of France) has been full of great people. My favorite thing to do when I'm in Europe is to go to a local pub and just find someone to talk to. The real people are the local people. Landmarks, scenery, history, ruins, sight-seeing, etc. are all great, but to really experience a country, you need to talk to the people who live there. In my experience, everyone has been very nice to me, and anxious to talk to an American. The fact that I'm a Texan just intrigues them even more. When I'm overseas, most of the time I don't pay for half of the beer I drink because people buy me drinks, patrons and bartenders alike. And no, its not because I go into gay bars or something like that. Its simply because most people are friendly and want to capitalize on their chance to talk to someone from another part of the world.

Idiotic stereotypes are what keeps people down. Some are funny, some are true for some people, but not all. I love Europe and the only place I've ever seen any animosity toward Americans was in France, and I'm sure the whole country is not like that.

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Proud Cheerleader 'til we move to New Orleans
302

Ace
02-22-2000, 07:47 PM
"Don't give me your "if", "ands", and "buts" crap. If Hitler had conquered the world...where would you be? It always irks me the amount of anti-American sentiment that's spewed forth from countries that probably wouldn't even exist if it were not for the US."

Conquered the world? I don’t think so.… Please don’t talk about history if you can’t understand anything but your own country’s point of view.
Anyway, I would probably still be doing ok…even if I had to live under such a dictatorship. I am almost completely Dutch (slight Chinese/Peruvian background on my dad’s side), and Hitler did not hold much of a grudge against us. I’m not saying I would enjoy it but I probably would not be working in some camp, if that is what you mean.
Americans did not save our country, although I appreciate the help we received from the United States. Canadians were actually the first to liberate Dutch cities, if I am not mistaken.

So what are you saying? That you can have such feeling about Germany (basing it on the fact that you think they’re all Nazi pigs, no less), but we can’t about the USA because you saved us? Give me a break. At least we can support our argument, even if it is wrong. All you give us is the “America rules and you’re all a bunch of Nazis” response.

I don't understand the reason for your post in the first place. That's like me saying that I heard in some class that all Germans were Nazis. It's just inflammatory flamebait.

Umm…explain this for me, then:

“You guys thought that the master race was a bunch of Arian clones and attempted to exterminate those that were different.”

I think Jovi had no part in this, actually.

“Crawl back in your hole Hitler youth candidate.”

Could you make it any easier??


I think I know what you are going to say so I’m going to save you the trouble of posting it:

“Shut up, you Dutch piece of crap! Why don’t you join up with the Germans so you can create your own little happy Aryan Nation? The USA rules, so stop making such hypocritical comments….and if you do find some sort of argument against us, please remember that we “saved” you, so you have to keep your mouth shut!”

BTW…my family had to endure five years under Hitler, and I have heard many stories that have truly made me want to kill all Germans for a moment (sorry, it’s happened). Many of their friends died in labour camps, and no Jews that used to live in their town returned home after the war. Please don’t tell me I don’t know what it’s like because my family members did not suffer. Believe me, they did. My great-grandfather was almost caught by Germans when doing so “Ondergrondse” (underground) work against Hitler, and my grandmother was almost killed by a German soldier for calling him crazy (in German).



------------------
Francis+Charles+Dream-Pippen= Rockets 2000 NBA
Champions

Houston Rockets Space Center (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/6544)

MoonDogg
02-22-2000, 09:46 PM
My last post on this subject...

Jovi:
You have your opinions...I have mine. But it's usually better to keep some of those to ourselves....just causes friction.

Ace:
I don't recall ever mentioning anything about the Dutch involvement in anything.

As far as your inference that the "Arian clones" comment being flamebait. No...it was a flame...no bait to it. And no...you don't know what I'm going to say about your Dutch heritage...you don't know me that well. You seem to have some biases of your own, but I'm not even gonna go into that.

To the rest:
I responded to a stereotypical post in a like manner....fight fire with fire in this case. Every country has it's share of bigots and losers..fact of life. Every country also has it's good points...some more than others. Be proud of the beauty in whatever country your in, but also be aware of the negatives.

Ace
02-22-2000, 10:08 PM
You didn't mention it, but you implied that I had no right to say anything, since the USA "saved our country."
Who were you talking to, then? I think the rest made it clear that they were Americans. And it's obvious that you were not talking about Jovi's Germany.

My point was not that it was flame bait. My point was that on one hand you say that one should not assume, while on the other you immeddiately refer to Jovi as part of those who wanted to exterminate the Jews and as a member of the Hitler Youth.

As to my biases, please...go ahead. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

------------------
Francis+Charles+Dream-Pippen= Rockets 2000 NBA
Champions

Houston Rockets Space Center (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/6544)

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited February 22, 2000).]

DAROckets
02-22-2000, 11:54 PM
Who give's a damm about what a few germans think of America.I think that jovi had the sole intent of picking a fight here.Why else did you start off with here we go again ?
This thread could go on forever.Fact is that you find people with all the personality trait's jovi mentioned in every society.SO WHAT

SpaceCity
02-23-2000, 01:07 PM
Many of you should be ashamed. I really find it hard to believe that it took so little to make some of you that defensive and aggressive. I'm really shocked because in no way was Jovi being aggressive or accusational.

Here are the observations again:

Superficial? I would agree that we give the impression of being quite vain. Money and "toys" tend to always be high on our list of priorities.

Proud? Isn't every country?

Extreme? We have all types with a wide range of beliefs. We do cover the spectrum in all aspects of life.

Prudish? I wouldn't have thought so but I am told that many Europeans view us as prudent. I guess this makes sense if you think about it. Why are we taught to be ashamed of our bodies and sexualality? Why is OK for men to be topless and not women? Why are so many parents reluctant to teach there kids the truth about sex and drugs? Many European countries have proven that when kids are educated with the truth at an early age they have less problems in the future with alcoholism, sexually transmitted diseases, drug abuse, and teenage pregnancy.

Ambitious? You betcha! You have to be ambitious to be superficial!

Religious? I've lived in towns where there are more churches than people, or so it seems.

Innovative? Yup. (See Ambitious or Superficial) http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

Racist? Sad but true. Don't take it so personal. This is not a finger pointing at just you. There is no reason for any individual to get so worked up by this observation unless you are actually a racist. Racism is everywhere and in every country in various forms. Truly sad. European racism seems to be more territorial whereas American racism seems to be ethnic. As it has been pointed out a few time, this is probably because we are the melting pot of all nations.

MoonDogg, no offense man but you were completely out of line with your initial reply to Jovi. No reasoning can justify your defensive and racist-like reply. You nearly validated every trait that Jovi mentioned all in one post. Congratulations.

Jovi, I'm sorry that you got attacked and blasted by close-minded Americans. You were, after all, only trying to stimulate an intellectual and educational conversation. Like RM95, I find these opportunities to be educational, fun, and intriging. I only wish that I had the opportunity to communicate with people from around the world when I was going to school. The internet finally allows all cultures to communicate and learn from each other.

Thanks for the interesting post, Jovi. Keep it up.



[This message has been edited by SpaceCity (edited February 23, 2000).]

sirhangover
02-23-2000, 01:37 PM
you know what you are right Daro...and I still agree with MoonDog...

He was just being german about the whole "we are better than you" type inferences from his first post...Thats been their "tragic flaw" from the outset they have an inferiority complex and all they can do is talk about us hence them talking about us in some class on the other side of the world....its a myopia just let it slide guys...and no i dont think i am stereotyping either..its best to just agree with them...say yeah "whatever" and move on..... we know the truth here..so do they...

they are convinced of their superiority and their blind nature, excuse me his blind nature is common yet maybe exceptionally different and possibly over the top in relation to the norm...I was just so overwhelmed by the comedy of such an initial post i had to say something...How about that helmut kohl and the corrupt government that was sweet what happened yesterday with that... and his(germanys) local problems including the racism against turks and pakistanis... that was what i meant jovi when i said look at yourself you myopian that what you guys should be worrying about in your class..and stay off here with criticism and negative posts...

like i said before even if i thought germany was the crappiest place in the world...i dont think i would take the time to go on to some german website and tell them that or do anything similar..whats the point? just chalk it up to a german being a german....again the inferiority that i was talking about...whoah that was narrowminded..but then again I am extreme proud superficial american right?..you europeans convince yourself that we do not know anything...thats the tragic flaw i was talking about and the reason for your own problems like unemployment, corruption etc...what do I know though right?..and by the way ace your negativity is the same thing that I am talking about....and just admit the americans did help to a degree during WWII why cant you? Is it that hard to compliment us guys...?

I like holland...rijksmuseum...hot chicks..skunk#5mixed with silverhaze....heneiken brewery...beautiful countryside....

I like germany...radler...englishgarten...bmw..porshce...claudia schiffer...

I am not going to say anything else negative there is nothing constructive in that jovi and it will not prove anything..... take care....

Jovi
02-23-2000, 01:45 PM
Lynus: Wow. I´m impressed.

You seem to have traveled a lot through Europe, which is quite surprising for such young a student like you. You remarks, however, were very interesting.
Just one note: If you a Rocket cheerleader (which implies that you must be extremely good-looking), do you really think people buy you drinks in order to talk to you about prejudices http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

However, let me tackle a few of your points. Having been to most of the countries and thanks to my European origin, I might be qualified to say something here:

1. The English are all snotty with bad teeth and warm beer.

Snotty? OK. Agree. They (to a bigger extent than other countries do) believe that England is the best country in the world and use to refer to the rest of Europe as "the continent". But it´s ok..

Bad teeth? LOL. now that´s funny. Never heard of that one. Definitely not true, the level of medical utilities is not that bad.

Warm Beer? Wrong. They (and that´s what a German ca´t understand) like to drink their beer without this nice white crown, which flat out sucks.

he French are not only snotty, but incredibly rude, incredibly smelly, and the females are incredibly hairy.

Funny. I was astonished when I first found out that you consider the French to be rude. They are true gentleman and their "savoir-vivre" is praised all along Europe. Plus, over here, it is believed that French women are the best by far.

The Polish are none too bright, none too attractive, and are all drunks.

Well, (sorry pole) we have te prejudice that the Polish are all thieves...the women are good-looking, remember this one great Bind-girl which came from Poland?


8. Finally on to Germany, who are all a bunch of beer-swilling, master-race Nazis with superior automotive engineering.

Master-race Nazis? Nope. Only few people still believe in the Germans as the master race, which does not mean we don´t have any problems with Turks, Albanians etc.

Nothing is as good as a German beer, and the Hofbraeuhaus us definitely the best place to drink one. BUT: You WILL NEVER EVER find a true Bavarian in the Hofbraeuhaus, it is full of tourist from a) germany and b) the rest of the world. No Bavarian would ever enter the Hofbraeuhaus, it´s just a tourist attraction. Nevertheless, when I vistied Munich, I had a great time drinking my Mass and listening to the music. It was so much fun.

We don´t really drink that much beer...except for the days that end on a "Y".
*****
MoonDogg really verified a few prejudices of mine, especially when he started to talk about the American Dream. Don´t get me wrong: We don´t have something like it, but it´s a deep-rooted sentiment over here that every American uses to refer to the pursuit of happiness whenever he gets a chance.

Daro:
<Who give's a damm about what a few germans think of America.>
As you can see, educated people do.

PS: Here we go again refers to my former posts about Texans, which were of a different nature.

Rocketman95
02-23-2000, 01:59 PM
I have read, re-read, and re-read Jovi's post at least 20 times.

Where are some of you getting these inferences that Jovi feels that his country is so much better than the U.S.?

And if he does, what's wrong with that. Do most of us not feel that the U.S. is better than Germany?

Some of you people need some much thicker skin.

Jovi
02-23-2000, 04:14 PM
The next lines are directed at SirHangover:

Thanks for your remarks. I will probably make a print-out and present them to my class as an example of an unfriendly American. As you can see, there are many nice people over here which are able to lead a decent discussion. I believe the Americans are very nice people (most of them are really friendly, judging from my own experience and from what my pals tell me), but people like you verify some prejudices as well.

<<.Thats been their "tragic flaw" from the outset they have an inferiority complex>>

Now that really shows how narrow-minded you are. It´s a perfect example. You seem to have a problem to discuss about AMERICA, because you can´t stand critisism against your great country. This, indeed, shows how incredibly prejudiced you are. It´s interesting to see.

But, how come you think we have an inferiority complex? That´s the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Germany lost the war because of the US intervening, but that´s not the point. Do you really think my generation considers America the enemy? We only know the war from our grandparents´ tales, and there is nothing MY generation has to be ashamed of. Germany developed into one of the leading countries in the EU, if not the world.

<<its best to just agree with them...say yeah "whatever" and move on..... we know the truth here..so do they>>

As the other members of this BBS see, this foolish reply does not deserve any comment. Is it because you are not able to discuss? Nice tactic.

<<How about that helmut kohl and the corrupt government that was sweet what happened yesterday with that... and his(germanys) local problems including the racism against turks and pakistanis>>

Yep. We have local problems, thanks for letting me know. How did you find out? Finding out that about Kohl´s corruption was a major blow, but do you really believe there is no corruption in the great USA? Even you have to be clever enogh to realize that this is not the case. What about your problems with horrible high school shootings? Things like that do not happen over here. Does your great country have any decent plans as far as social security is concerned? We do.
And racism remains one of the biggest problems over there, don´t close your eyes.

<<i dont think i would take the time to go on to some german website and tell them that or do anything similar..whats the point?>>

Well, believe it or not, here are some guys that like to discuss things, especially the good old posters from the days when you were still trying to learn how to send an email. That´s why I posted this here, I appreciate their comments/remarks on my critical views.

<<just chalk it up to a german being a german>>

Just as I chalk it up to you being the worst possible example for an prejudiced American.

<<you europeans convince yourself that we do not know anything...thats the tragic flaw i was talking about and the reason for your own problems like unemployment, corruption etc>>

Yeah, right. The US does not have any problems, right?

Finally, this proves how narrow-minded you are:
<<I like holland...rijksmuseum...hot chicks..skunk#5mixed with silverhaze....heneiken brewery...beautiful countryside....
I like germany...radler...englishgarten...bmw..porshce...claudia schiffer...>>

Lynus302
02-23-2000, 04:52 PM
Jovi-

To clear up what I think is a little confusion:
1. The stereotypes I listed are media stereotypes of sorts here in America. Those are the things we hear in the states concerning particular Europeans. The only other prejudiced viewpoints I've heard other than American are English, which I'm sure differ from the rest of Europe's stereotypes. Its like this maybe, from a European point of view:
A. All US Southerners are prejudiced, racist, and know-nothing hillbilly rednecks. (not true)
B. All US blacks are drug-dealers and thieves. (not true)
C. Everyone in Texas rides a horse, carries a gun, and has a huge cowboy hat. (not entirely true) http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

NEXT ISSUE

I AM A 24 YEAR OLD MAN/GUY/MALE, DAMMIT

I never thought someone would question my gender on this site, but it sounds like an honest mistake, so listen up and I'll forgive you this time:

1. My "cheerleader" signature goes back a ways on this site to when everyone was divided into two camps, pessimists and optimists. The optimists took up the nickname of cheerleaders because I think some pessimist accused us of only being 'cheerleaders' and 'not looking at the big picture.' We all liked the nickname because we love the Rockets and believe they can win every time they step onto the floor. That is why I call myself a cheerleader.

2. As for my travels, yes I am a college student, and no, my family is not wealthy... my mom works for British Airways in Houston. That is why I've been everywhere, because I have been incredibly fortunate that my mom can get free tickets anywhere in the world.

Let me repeat that bit from above, Jovi:

I AM A MAN

Thank you

------------------
Proud Cheerleader 'til we move to New Orleans
302

Jovi
02-23-2000, 05:20 PM
Ups. Sorry for the mixup. (That´s quite embarrassing now, especially for someone who claims to be one of the good old posters) http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

<<All US blacks are drug-dealers and thieves>>

From follwing the USA (by watching movies and reading books), I believe that´s what the white Americans think of the blacks.

Space Ghost
02-23-2000, 06:05 PM
...

[This message has been edited by Space Ghost (edited February 23, 2000).]

sirhangover
02-23-2000, 06:17 PM
This is you jovi -"What about your problems with horrible high school shootings? Things like that do not happen over here. Does your great country have any decent plans as far as social security is concerned? We do."

Okay...that doesnt sound arrogant? like the "better than you" attitude that I have been talking about since the beginning of your desire to cheapshot us....its your tone buddy..just because I am disagreeing with you in a constructive way and stating facts not opinion you are beginning to act this way...

what are you talking about anyway? in my first post I agreed that there are indeed problems here...I agree again so I guess I need to keep saying that over and over...yes there are problems here...yes there are problems here...that is not the issue jovi..I just do not believe and its is right and I feel it to be VERY hypocrtical to say the things you say in light of how you are acting here and how (not to stereo type) but germans are and have been for the past 100 years at least....

I cited helmut kohl(political corruption), german racism (turks, pakistanis), unemployment(hovers around 15%) I could go on and on...therefore it is very annoying to hear your b*ll**** from you...and i am tired of europeans continually bashing americans....look at your own country man!!!!!!! jesus christ!!!in other words why come on here and create this negativity.....like our own admin said "Extreme" and "racist"....?
This, coming from Germans?"

you are making yourself into a laughing stock and validating my point...your myopia is almost sad....

I hold an EU passport I have been to germany 4 times spending collectively 2 months in germany itself and have lived in other parts of europe for over 2 years in my adult life...so dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about....

Bottom line here again..is why come on here and try and stir up this bbs with negativity about americans when you have problems of your own?why? like dr of dunk said these traits are everywhere...i am sick and tired of germans thinking they are so *****ing great..and yes you do act that way as evidence in your post especially my quote from your posts..and then on top of that come and tell us we are racist, extreme, superficial?always quick to bash us for such bad people all the time...thats the inferiority complex...face it..that is a classic example of an inferiority...i prove it through factual citation and you begin to get more and more sensitive...

print this out and tell your class this part as well....i want you to...

by the way whats wrong with claudia schiffer?

Rocketman95
02-23-2000, 06:36 PM
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE POINT OUT THE POSTS WHERE JOVI CALLS GERMANS MUCH BETTER CITIZENS THAN AMERICANS? SHOW ME THE PART WHERE JOVI SAYS THAT THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS IN GERMANY.

He's just sharing his experiences. He's not proving anybody's points. However, people are proving his classmates right. All he did was share with us what many Germans believe about Americans, it was not a flame attempt. Maybe to promote a debate, but it was not a flame attempt. If it was, I'm sure we'd be able to tell.

sirhangover
02-23-2000, 07:27 PM
rocketman95: by highlighting our racism,extremist,superficial etc statement from the outset it is to me an inference that american are like that and that they as germans are not...I think that is a foregone conclusion just from his first post and even more evident when I quote him here:

"What about your problems with horrible high school shootings? Things like that do not happen over here. Does your great country have any decent plans as far as social security is concerned? We do.
And racism remains one of the biggest problems over there, don´t close your eyes."

he even brings up the racist thing again...what a joke..

I am sick and tired of germans coming in with their hot ***** attitude and saying things that he implied in the first post pointing out regarding our shortcomings then stated explicitly "Things like that do not happen over here" it is that holier then thou attitude that many many many people have pointed out to me time and again has surfaced in my life experiences...

I am equally at fault for generalizing "germans" as I know they are not all like that.....but this attitude from him and from germans time and again comes up ...case in point here he has to come on a US website and point those out to us? To begin and end with this is hypocrisy at its finest ...pure and simple rocketman95....he doesnt need to explicitly state this although for my arguments sake he did even though it was already a forgone conclusion...i am going to defend that attitude especially from a german because it just makes me sick....

Dreamshake
02-24-2000, 12:59 AM
I don't believe Ive ever agreed with Rocketman95 on anything on this bbs. But I have to agree with him on this.

I find it absolutely hilarious that one can get so upset about the perception of being a racist, then go out and use racist slurs. If you truely hate the idea of being stereotyped a racist, why then would you use racist attacks?

Ive read, re-read and analyzed this thread. As an American, and a minority. I found absolutely nothing wrong with Jovi's passing along of Germans "perceptions" of Americans.

Dreamer...buddy, you nailed it on the head. Its easy to look at another country and claim "Look at the horrible things you did", yet forget some of the horrible transgressions against blacks, asians, and native americans created by Americans. Lets not forget that this country was stolen from the Native Americans, who we lied to, and killed off to take what they wanted. Then grew and prospered off of slavery. Lets not forget that while Americans were fighting the "Racists" in germany, at home we were still lynching blacks, not even allowing blacks basic human rights.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't have a hate for America. Just trying to keep this a civil, and interesting topic.

IROC it
02-24-2000, 02:01 AM
All I know is that Jovi ran a cool
SIM League once and I was in it.

And that he's a cool German dude.

Lay off the discussion, he only "mentioned"
the terminology used by his fellow classmates, not necessarily himself!!

Good grief Charlie Brown!!

------------------
Proud Father of the Rockets' future point guard.

Bailey
02-24-2000, 02:39 AM
Jovi:

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you about the beer. Taking it to mean "bitter", it is supposed to be served not chilled (so I guess you could call it warm), and whether you have a head on top of it or not is simply personal preference (I prefer it). Have to agree about the teeth, this set I'm wearing at the minute are great http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif Never been to Germany, so I can't really comment, but I drive a VW Golf, so I'd agree with Lynus about the cars. I like the French, I've always found them very friendly whenever I've visited (especially if you make the effort to try to speak the language), and the women are perfectly fine. Hope to visit the US this summer to confirm some of my prejudices (all Americans are fat, stupid and wear cowboy hats http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif).


[This message has been edited by GBRocksFan (edited February 23, 2000).]

Rocketman95
02-24-2000, 11:11 AM
Oh Dreamshake, I'm sure we've agreed on something at least once before.

What about that Rudy T thing?

Oh wait.

What about the Astros trades?

Oh wait.

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif

My last take on this. Jovi, don't let any of these people stop you from sharing your experiences. Obviously some have not been here long enough to realize that you don't have bad intentions when you post.

SpaceCity
02-24-2000, 11:25 AM
SirHangover,
Dude what's your problem?!

Why are you so defensive?

Why are you not getting that Jovi did not create this post to accuse and offend Americans?

Why aren't you able to constructively join this conversation without attacking Jovi, and Germans in general, everytime you post?


I can understand if you disagree with the observations of his classmates. While these traits may not be correct in representing you or me, they do desribe many people that live in this country. Those are the people that are seen on TV. They are in magazines. They are in the news.

Once again, I'd like to thank Jovi for presenting us with these observations. No longer do we have to rely on stereotypes. We no longer have to assume that what we see on TV is representative of all people in any given country. We now have the Internet. We now have the ability to have people-to-people conversations. We can communicate directly with each other.

If you can't handle having a constructive conversation then maybe you should just choose not to post on this topic.

I'm not sure what nerve of yours got touched but you are really coming across as an angry aggressive person.

Peace

sirhangover
02-24-2000, 01:37 PM
Dear jovi,
yeah okay you struck a nerve with me and my emotions overcame me and i lashed against you and singled you out...for that i am apologizing....

Nevertheless,i still believe that it is not fair and somewhat hypocritical to come on here and say(or imply) negative stereo typical things like that for the sake of discussion or argument...maybe its just me but i wouldnt do that...the stereotypes that you or your classmates have are unfortunate...obviously everyone has them(myself included) and although an open forum i still think its not necessary to come here and express them in that initial tone..maybe its the tone and your way of expression in english..maybe it was well intended but I was offended...I am playing more devils advocate than anything for the sake of argument and because i have and idea what i am talking about and are we all supposed to agree...?"yeah jovi your right we are racist, religious, superficial, extremists...."

I am not the "ugly american" and when in germany i do my best to respect and embrace their differences...one would expect the same here in a US bbs and highlighting traits in a manner that to me represent somewhat of a shot at the US can be discussed yet naturally defended..we can talk for hours about what people 200 years ago did to indians and we can talk about the injustices of slavery in the US as well as your countries past problems...but you are not the one most likely to blame for those injustices as I am not to blame for slavery...for that matter...

anyway peace to you....

it doesnt need to go any further as their is no point to arguing you are no better than i am nor your country as much as you may want to believe that.. I never will...and i am no better than you.. and you posting "so called" traits is only counterproductive to the fun we should be having here....i only wish to disagree with inconsistencies when i see them and I have said what i need to say...hopefully fellow bbsers will see this as my attempt to be friendly with no malice intended and we can move on to more worthwhile causes..thank you....
Regards,
john

DREAMer
02-24-2000, 01:47 PM
POST 1: Can an Admin or whoever funked up this thread please fix it, so I can read the thing without scrolling left and right?

Please? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

POST 2: Actually, I think it was "sirhangover". Not trying to point fingers, but when you use a lot of "...." and dont' put spaces inbetween them and the words on either side of them, then they force the screen to scroll, if they just so happen to come near the end of the right side of the post window. Then again, I could be wrong.

POST 3: Thanks



[This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited February 25, 2000).]

Lynus302
02-25-2000, 12:49 AM
I agree with you Dreamer. The left-right scroling is driving me nuts.

I think it is because of a long-ass URL someone posted above.

Someone please fix this!

------------------
Proud Cheerleader 'til we move to New Orleans
302

sirhangover
02-25-2000, 06:58 PM
i can see it...