michael jordan is not the greatest ever.

[brahma rocket]

i'm tired of michael jordan being called the greatest ever to play basketball, he was even the 1# athlete of the century on espn. it makes me sick. how can a man that scored 100 points in a game,got 55 rebounds in a game, averaged 50 ppg. and 20+ rpg. in a single season not be called the best ever, i mean my god he has led the league in points, rebounds, assists and feild goal percentage throughout his career . wilt chamberlain is the greatest basketball player that ever lived.

[mantronix]

brahma rocket, I agree MJ is not the best bball player of all time neither is Wilt, How can you be the greatest when you dont play against quality competetion and Wilt played a bunch of short unathletic white guys. Magic and Bird were the best players of all time. They were best team players and clutch players.

[brahma rocket]

actually wilt's competition was hard, not because they were big and strong but because they knew him in and out , they keyed on him every time down the court, they played him every week, the league back then was much harder because the players were'nt spread out every where so it made the league compact yet filled with talent.it does'nt matter how tall the players were, wilt changed the game more than anyone. and i have a question for you , if larry bird was'nt white would he still be remembered the same way?

[Francis3]

Your an idiot, Jordan is the best of all time and that is final.

[brahma rocket]

why is jordan the best? and its you're an idiot , not your.

[Francis3]

I was just playing with you brahma rocket. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

But now let me tell you why jordan is the greatest player. First of all, In jordans era he had alot of talented players playing in his era. In wilts era, not alot of teams and he was a big monster that not anyone could handle him. If you bring wilt in his prime to playing right now then he wouldnt average anything like that because right now alot of players are more physical and are taller and can just overpower him. Mj understood the game and what it took to win. Im not taking anything away from wilt but he isnt the best of all time. Mj is just a great athlete and is definetley the best of all time.

[brahma rocket]

well i guess are opinions are just very different and will never change. i think when a league is small and compact it is harder , and if we put chamberlain in the league now i think he would be averaging as much as shaq or more, but we will never know.its just too bad we never saw wilt in real life or i think alot of people's opinions would be much different.

[Dr of Dunk]

There may be taller people than Wilt, but there wouldn't be many, if any, that were better. He also still would be among the most athletic centers in the league. Any 7', 280 lbs guy that can play volleyball is athletic enough to play in this era. He wouldn't average what he did back then, but he'd still be one of the 2 or 3 best centers if not the best in the league.

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Rocket fuel pumps through these veins...

[This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited January 01, 2000).]

[thedreamshake99]

The three best basketball players of all time come from Wilts "era"

As Jordan himself proclaimed. Russell is better, so was the Big O, and yes so was Wilt.

[CaucasionSensation]

Jordan is the greatest of all time. Think if Jordan had to play against 6-3 and 6-2 white guys almost every night (relative to those Chamberlain played against).

Wilt Chamberlain played in a time when the NBA was almost as much spectacle as sport and he was the ultimate freak within it.

Today the NBA is a meat market. Kids are being courted by Addidas and Nike often before they are even juniors in high school.

Wilt is a great player, probably even by todays standards, but Jordan is the greatest.

How about Babe Ruth vs. Mark McGwire or Ken Griffey Jr. Are stats really everything? I don't think so!

[brahma rocket]

when mikey scores 100 in a game maybe i'll think about him being the greatest.

[Rocket Fan]

I don't think you can say all that junk about if wilt played now. you can't punish a player for when he played. truth is if mj played during wilts time he would not have been as good because there was less in the way of physical conditioniong and also a big part of all this mj crap is hype and without the media that he had in the 90s mj would not be so hyped up

[Rocket Fan]

i mean come on wilt did it all. and i'm tired of this crap mj is a great athlete and he can play baseball too. MJ COULD NOT PLAY BASEBALL AT ALL. HE WASN'T EVEN GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE MINOR LEAGUES BUT HIS HYPE GOT HIM IN

[Rocketability]

I don't know if Jordan is the best bball player ever, but I do think he is a better player than Wilt was.

Both are GREAT players, though. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

[alaskansnowman]

Remember Jordan's clutch performance against the Jazz while he was sick?

[brahma rocket]

remember wilt's 100 points in a game or how about his 55 rebounds in one.but if jordan was REALLY sick then that was a good game for him but i always thought he was faking it.

[DarkHorse]

No one will ever be able to prove who is truly the best of all time, cause it's so subjective. Of course they're going to say that MJ is the best of all time because of his popularity right now, and the fact that he's the most recent mega-superstar to grace the court. But if you look at history, at least 5 other guys have a good strong case as being the best ever. Depend on what you call the best. Those 5 (in no particular order):
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

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Because this is MORE than a spectator sport...

[brahma rocket]

you know who else you should add to that list, the big O oscar robertson. triple double for a season.

[A-Train]

One thing about ESPN's countdown...It was a popularity contest, nothing more and nothing less...

There is actually a reason why Jordan was voted number one if you really think about it...

OK, you know that Jordan was going to be in the Top five simply because he's Michael Jordan, it was just a matter of where...The "voting" for this countdown was done, when...the second half of 1998?? What happened in June of 1998? Right, Jordan just buried the final shot of his career and beat the Utah **** (no, that's not a typo) for the second time in the NBA finals...So, MJ's heroics was probably the final image on all the voters' minds when they did the tabulation, therefore they were most likely thinking, "Whoa, that shot that Jordan hit in the NBA finals was pretty epic...I think I'll vote for him..."

Also, the fact that Jordan played in the age of TV and 24 hour cable networks and satellite dishes might have had something to do about it...

Personally, I think Dr. J is the best player to watch old highlights of...That fro was aweseome!!

AV

[DREAMer]

I think it's dumb to argue about who was the "greatest basketball player of all-time". You just can't substantiate it. What you can more easily argue is who was the best center, power forward, small forward, shooting guard, and point guards of all-time. It's much easier to compare.


My thoughts on Chamberlain:

1.) It is hard to complain about someone playing in a different era. But, if you're gonna say that today's NBA is watered down, I can say that yesteryear's NBA was a bunch of no-jumping white guys.

2.) I truly feel that Shaq would've been just as good as Wilt if they had been born in place of each other. And, I'm not the biggest O'Neal fan on the planet. I also feel that Hakeem is better then Shaq will ever be, so I guess you know where I rank him all-time.

3.) Although he was a "stats" phenomenon, I don't think he truly understood the team concept. If there's any truth to being too far ahead of your time, then Chamberlain is a perfect example.

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I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.

[CaucasionSensation]

Hey Brahma, you let MJ play back in the day with the talent he has, and he would destroy people. Wilt was was certainly great but can you honestly say that if you threw him into the mix with Shaq, Duncan, Mourning, and Hakeem that he is even the greatest center.

The fact is Jordan is probably the most competitive player (besides possibly Larry Bird and Bill Russel) to ever play. His ability to win, make others better, and take completely over games even when sick is just unbelievable.

I don't think you can really compare people from generations to the next, but if I could have one player of all time on my team I would quickly take Michael. He is the perfect athlete, perfect competitor, and carries himself with a modest and confident swagger that Wilt never knew.

Props by the way to whoever mentioned Oscar Robertson. He deserves a strong mention.

[brahma rocket]

that would be me who mentioned the big o. and i would pick chamberlain over jordan any day of the week.jordan would not have destroyed teams back then he would of just been a good player that got dominated by the celtics and if he had'nt won any championships he would never even come close to being the best ever he would be with dominique wilkens.can i ask you a question, were you around when wilt played? because if you ask any former player or fan from that day they will automatically say wilt, but if you ask any teenager with the air jordans on today they will automatically say jordan. it comes down to this, if they were playing one on one who would win?

[RocketScientist]

Soryy if this is a little off the topic but... could someone please list who ESPN rated as the top 5 athletes? THat was a pretty interesting series, but I was so busy and have missed alot over the last month due to my Y2K responsibilities...what an overhyped event!

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-Peace to the Believers

[thedreamshake99]

First of all, Wilt had a total game. He dominated the scoring, Like Mikey never could. People would get their panties in a bundle over Jordan scoring 50, Wilt averaged that for a season. Didnt he also dominate Rebounding, and even thouh stats weren't kept on them, Block? Wasn't he also a great defender? Didn't he also lead the league in assists one year. Wasn't he an all aroung good passer?

Hey when Jordan could lead the leage in Rebounding or Assists. Or heck Pull off an Oscar Robertson and go off for a triple double for a whole season, then maybe he'd have my attention.

[DaDakota]

IMHO, no center can ever be called the greatest ever. As a center you are dependent on someone else getting you the ball.

To be able to be called the greatest, I think you need to do it all....Thus Jordan..who could dribble, pass, shoot, rebound, defend...etc..etc..would be rated higher then Wilt.

I think the 2 best ever are Jordan and Oscar Robertson.

You can't do anything without the ball.

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

DaDakota

[Francis3]

Jordan is the best and that is final. Man, This is crap, ppl talking about Chamberlien did this and that. How many teams were there back then? Like 12. And wilt was the tallest player, no one even came close to his height. Someone mentioned here that they were like 6'2, 6'3 white guys gaurding him. THAT IS exactly what they were. Small players holding a giant. But if wilt ever came in his prime to the nba, He wouldnt even be half of what he was back then. He would still be really good, but no 100 point games or 55 rebounds. Wilt played in the old days when there were no tall players.

[thedreamshake99]

You guys are over hyping the size difference in comparison to days gone by. Wilt is very similar to a Shaq. Actually he was not as big as Shaq. Is anyone griping that Shaq doesn't deserve his accolades because of how much taller he is. If so then Jordan was a taller shooting guard than most in his day.....

Francis3. You nailed it. Other teams were playing their 6'2" white guys on WILT. I guess when the 3 greatest centers on earth played in Wilts era, he had a distinct advantage over the 6'2" Russell, or the 6'3" Kareem.

Average height in the NBA has probaly gone up 3 inches since the 60's. And Id argue that those inches are mostly seen in the guards.

[DaDakota]

Dreamshake,

Tell that to Mugsy !!!

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

[Mango]

DaDakota,


When Dream was the best in the league in the mid '90's, the offense was run through him, but he never had the reponsibility of bringing the ball down court.


Mango

[brahma rocket]

if you're judging a player by his all around skills then jordan is far from the top of that category. you tell me what he has done well at besides scoring and playind a little d. wilt had led the league in points.assists,rebounds and fieldgoal percentage at one time in his career. jordan never did that. and to say jordan is a great passer his hilarious. did you ever watch his games, on a good night at best he would have 7 assists. jordan is a scorer and thats it, wilt was the most dominate player this league has ever seen.

[Rocket Fan]

one of my problems with mj that he own no career record hardly. he's not all time scorer, rebounder, steals, assisists or blcoks or anything. but everytime i say he owns no record some mj fan makes a comment like he does to spacejam has a recorfd

[TheFreak]

First of all, Wilt had a total game. He dominated the scoring, Like Mikey never could.

Jordan is the all-time leader in ppg, playoff ppg, and NBA Finals ppg. Better than Wilt in all 3 categories.

[brahma rocket]

wilt still had a more total game then jordan pal, he may not be ahead of him in scoring (1.4ppg) but where is jordan in rebounds, in assists where guards should be. like i said before, mj was a scorer, wilt dominated the whole game

[Moses]

No disrespect to MJ but Wilts the most dominating player of all time

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Moses begat Sampson, Sampson begat Hakeem, And Hakeem led us to the promised land

[Francis3]

Jordan is the greatest of alll time. Chamberlien came in the league having it easy with short players holding him then when other greats came his average started to drop and his last season he averaged like 14.

Wilt was a great player but jordan is better.


IF wilt was sooo dominant then how come he only won 2 rings?

[brahma rocket]

can you say celtics, geez man get a clue if you are judging players abilities by how many championships they won then are you saying steve kerr is better than the dream because he more titles?

[Francis3]

No the way you make it sound as if he couldnt be stopped and he was the greatest at everything.

Wilt was a good player but when his last years of his career were coming his average dropped to like 13 and 14 points a game. Can you explain that to me ?

I think it is because the league got harder and wilt couldnt easily handle the players holding him.

[brahma rocket]

because he was older man! and even when he was old and according to you with a tougher league he still had 19 rebounds a game.when ever wilt put his mind to something he could easily dominate it.

[Francis3]

Jordan was an older man and he still was the best in the nba.

[brahma rocket]

thanks to the refs and his 10+ free throws a night .

[AntiSonic]

The fact that Wilt led the NBA in assists one season should tell you something... It's like John Stockton leading the league in blocks.

Wilt was a much better player overall then Jordan. Jordan may have averaged 30+ points a game, but how many times did the refs push him to the line on admittedly biased calls? If you're going to take away points from Wilt simply for being taller, you should take away all those free throws from Jordan for being more popular.

Wilt wasn't just a stats monster, but he was one of the greatest athletes of all time. He was a champion high jumper and shot puter in college, and the Kansas City Chiefs even offered him a contract to play for them.

... And as for Wilt's dependency on the team to get him the ball, when he played for the Harlem Globetrotters(back when they were a legitimate basketball team), he played GUARD!!!

Check out <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~airjudden/wilt/">this site</A> for those and even more amazing stats on Chamberlain(really, check it out. His accomplishments are incredible!)

[brahma rocket]

great site ! that should seal the deal on who is better. look at the numbers, wow!!!!

[Dirt]

AntiSonic,
That is a fantastic site!!! I have always maintained Wilt was better than MJ,or anyone for that matter,and nothing in that site did anything to change my mind.
Check out Wilt's stats when going head to head with Russell. Wilt and Russell are both widely acknowledged as 2 of the top 10,maybe even top 5 players ever,and Wilt just DOMINATED him.MJ has'nt had a consistant rival that's anywhere close to being one of the alltime greats.If refs gave Wilt the same benefits as MJ received,Wilt's career scoring average would easily be 6-8 points higher!!!

[DREAMer]

While I still contend that arguing who the "best" basketball player of all-time is a waste of bandwidth, I will freely admit that Chamberlain was the most dominant player of all-time. I don't think anyone can argue that. But, that doesn't mean I think he was the best center of all-time....

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I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.

[mantronix]

Jordan could never even be considered for greatest player of all time because of all the cheating the refs did for him so get real Jordan lovers. Jordan is not even close so keep dreaming he is the best. Magic Johnson was the best of all time like or not its true. He is the most clutch player of all time and the best team player and forget that redneck flopping cheating Stockton Johnson was also the best passer of all time playoffs not noteibly.

[dream_team]

brahma rocket... good topic! i always like debating this one. because, I too, have to always argue against Jordan being the greatest ever. personally, I don't have an opinion of who the greatest ever is, but I do think Wilt was more dominating than Jordan was.

let me point out this one fact. people were saying Wilt dominated because he was being guarded by smaller white players back in his day. but also remember, back in his day there was no such thing as an illegal defense and no 3-point line. can you imagine how hard it must've been to get the ball into the post, considering there was no spacing and you were allowed to zone the passing lanes? also, a foul today is alot different from a foul back then. you can't even put a hand on a post player anymore.

if you think about it, the league created rules back then to stop Wilt's domination. today, rules were created to help Jordan dominate.

[CriscoKidd]

What are you guys talking about? Hakeem was the greatest of all time! The Dream! Jordan? Whutever, hes a joke. Wilt? Bah! Why dont you guys start singing the praises of Karla as well!

Hakeem - the best athlete of our century. Dreamshaked his way to 2 championships, and led his team to how many playoffs now?

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Crisco melts in your mouth, not in your hands.

[Bobby]

Arguing about "who's the best" when there are so many different eras, and the changes in the game, is almost pointless. It's like trying to say Tiger Woods is better than Bobby Jones, or Emmett Smith is better than Jim Brown, or Chipper Jones is better than Ty Cobb. You almost have to pick "all-era" teams and players. For example, IMO, there's never been a better team than the Celtics of the '60's: Russell, K.C. Jones, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsohn, and John Havilcek.

As for the "short, white guys" guarding Wilt, probably not many of you remember, or even heard of, guys like Jerry Lucas (at 6'8" probably one of the best defensive players ever), Ray Felix (6'11' - and black)from the Knicks, Russell, of course, Larry Foust at 6'9", Bob Pettit at 6'9", and Alcindor ne Jabar. Not exactly chopped liver, any of them. A "big forward" was 6'7", but some of the greatest were even shorter, e.g. Elgin Baylor at 6'6", George Yardley at 6'5", Paul Arizin also at 6'5", and Cliff Hagan at only 6'4". Guards were usually 6'3" or shorter.

Today's players are bigger by far; their motor skills are superior (I remember my coach in high school telling me not to let our 6'7" center put the ball on the floor more than two bounces!). The big guard really didn't become popular until Magic Johnson. But I think the quality was different then - a smaller market and "stage", you had to play smarter. Salaries then probably wouldn't compare to today's meal money. A lot more guys played for the love and challenge of the game instead of looking for the biggest contract.

I wouldn't want to revert to the "good old days" but I'd sure like to see a little more emphasis on the TEAM instead of the individual.

[DaneB]

First of all, the reason why Wilt only had two championship rings was because his team sucked and he had to pick up all the slack. The teams back then were so stacked, it was unbelievable. Once Wilt was traded away to the Lakers and was playing with a bunch of great players, his stats went way down because of the other overall talent. Jordan has like six rings because they had a lot better overall talent on his team than Wilt did in his prime. It was a lot harder league back then by far. By the way, are you sure Kareem was only 6'3"? I'm pretty sure he was a lot taller than modern day point guards.

[RocketsPimp]

Francis3...you know what happens to people that "just play"?

Keep it up and you'll soon find out. WE will make sure of that.

Anyway, my take is that we are comparing 2 totally different players. Mike was the athletic and fundametally sound basketball player. Wilt was the fighting, low post banger that had awesome skills for his time. Ummmm...not to mention they played 2 different positions. Its impossible to say one was better than the other. Its like saying Isiah Thomas is better than Hakeem....you can not compare the two....ever.



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There is no offense without a good defense.

[4chuckie]

Guys, it's tough to compare players of different eras. Let me start by saying that Wilt was the most dominating player ever, but Jordan was the greatest player. Wilt was a physical moster, where as Jordan was a fairly large guard who was mentally above everyone else. I'm not sure if Wilt ever got better during his career, but over Jordan's career he went from a pure slasher to the best all around player ever.

He led a team full of average players (Kerr, Longley, Paxson, Armstrong) and one good complimentary player (Pip- Who can't do a thing by himself) to 6 rings.

Wilt was dominating, but Jordan was by far a better player. Just ask yourself this from Wilts era who would you start a team with. Although most would say Wilt alot of others would say Bill Russell. I don't think you would see any arguments from Jordan's era (I know the Dream fans will criticize this, but truthfully everyone knows it is Jordan).

[RocketMan Tex]

Please people, how many times are we going to vomit up the same tired old topics? How can you name anyone as the "greatest" player in a TEAM sport. We can only name the greatest at each position. So...if you want to say that Michael Jordan was the greatest SG in basketball history, fine. But greatest player? Save your bandwidth for something important...like the next Rockets win!

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Just Win Baby! More Than Four Times!

[Lynus302]

No way is MJ the best ever. I think Hakeem has a better all-around game and I wouldn't call him the greatest either, though he is definitely my favorite.

Jordan's definitely the best 2 guard, with the Glyde a close second.

I'd give it to either Big O or Wilt.

And concerning Wilt not being able to play today, that's ridiculous. Wilt was Shaq with mad skills.

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Proud Cheerleader 'til we move to New Orleans
302

[CaucasionSensation]

MJ is undoubtedly the best ever.

Wilt leading the league in assists is a result of the double teams, that as a big man, he got more of, and realized late in his career that to win you have to make your teammates better. Jordan realized this earlier, that to win you have to be a team player.

The evidence of this point is that Jordan won 6 titles and Wilt won only 2.

What was the most athletic move you ever saw the man do anyway. Did anything he ever did make you run out on the basketball court and add 2 inches in hype to your vertical leap.

Jordan made me do that. Michael Jordan's Playground, NBA Superstars 2, all show Michael defying gravity, physics, defenses, double teams, and expectations again and again. He had the most story book ending to his career, where though sick nailed the game winner and brought the Bulls back single handedly to win.

You can talk statistics all you want.

Is Babe Ruth really a better player than Griffey Jr (would you pick him for your team today over him) or better slugger than McGwire?

Is Jim Thorpe really the better athlete in comparison to Carl Lewis?

Again though I want to say it's not accurate to compare greats in other times! There are just too many veriables. I just want to you to know I'll take Jordan.


[This message has been edited by CaucasionSensation (edited January 03, 2000).]

[brahma rocket]

thats great , but were you around when wilt played? if you were i seriously doubt you would talk like that, and wilt was a college track star , so dont bring your wilt is unatheletic stuff here.

[thedreamshake99]

Wasn't Wilt also drafted by the NFL???

[Dirt]

Caucasion Sensation,
What if MJ went up against a team for most of his career that started Malone,Pippen,Dream,
Isiah,and Drexler,with Stockton and Dominique coming off the bench? Would you be saying MJ is'nt the greatest because he never won any championships because the aforementioned team always beat them in the conference finals? This is essentially what Wilt went up against. Those Celtic teams had as many as 7 HOFers on their roster at one time,not to mention argueably the greatest coach ever.
Saying MJ is the greatest because he won 6 titles in a dilluted NBA is absurd at best. Does anyone really believe he would have won any in the 80's against the great Laker,Celtic,and 76er teams,not to mention Detroit as well??!!

[Francis3]

With Mjs team in the 90s going against the 80s teams , probably yes. Jordan is the greatest player of all time and that is just final.

[brahma rocket]

i love the way you explain yourself francis3.j/k

[RocketMan Tex]

It is sad that you can't build a time machine to play teams from different eras against each other. Remember that NBA rules were changed to LIMIT Wilt Chamberlain's game while NBA rules were changed to ENHANCE Michael Jordan's game. I would have loved to see Michael's 1996 Bulls go up against Wilt's 1972 Lakers with 1972 rules, allowing more physical play. MJ would have driven the lane to the hoop, and Wilt would have handed him his testicles on a platter!

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Just Win Baby! More Than Four Times!

[brahma rocket]

lol!!

[finalsY2K]

Michael Jordan is the best. Stop trying to challenge the obvious. If you don't want to see it, that is fine. But MJ was definitely the best basketball could produce in the 20th century. Now we'll see what comes along in the 21st. So far, all comers are pretenders.

He is like the Beatles. Definitely great judged alone on merit, but made greater by the confluence of events and timing.

[brahma rocket]

you were'nt around to see wilt were you,.. its hard to judge 2 players when you only saw one isn't it?