Free Will (Continued from Game Action thread) [Archive]

Plato

12-09-1999, 12:22 PM

Hmm, I'm not sure how much time i have here, but i'll go as long as "the man" allows...

I'll give my stance first:

skeptical agnosticism. i don't believe in God or disbieve in God. i merely think the use of an anthropomorphic infinite and omnipotent being is unwarranted and unprovable. i have read many arguments for the existence of God, and all have major problems. conversely, i have not read any convincing proofs of the non-existence of God (one being unprovable doesn't mean the other is true). if you really push me though on what i think is the most plausible, i would go with a determinist pantheistic theory of infinite and and essential existence (i can elaborate if anyone is interested)

back to some questions about religion. these are some standard problems:
(1) what is evil? why is there evil? is there evil or just lack of good?
(2) i suppose we should get some theories of how God interacts with the world on the table. so how does god interact with the world?
(3)if my will is controlled by God's (assumption, maybe unwarranted), how can my actions be punishable or rewardable?

i'll save further questions for response...

verse

12-09-1999, 12:47 PM

Plato:

1st, let me say that i agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence in the other forum...

2ndly, i believe it was either twain or shakespeare (terrible that i can't remember who) that said that nothing is inherently good or evil. thinking makes it so.

in other words, no situation is, in and of itself, bad or good. it is only when relating the event to other events in your life that allows you to perceive it as being one way or the other. a slight shift in perspective can make an action "good" or "bad"

(2) i suppose we should get some theories of how God interacts with the world on the table. so how does god interact with the world?

good question. i guess it depends on whether you mean directly or indirectly.

(3)if my will is controlled by God's (assumption, maybe unwarranted), how can my actions be punishable or rewardable?

ya see, i don't believe your will is inherently controlled by God. i believe He has given free choice. just as it, according to many religious people, is your choice whether or not to be saved. however, i personally believe that your will is just that - your will. you have the ability to follow whatever pathway you desire. however, with each pathway comes tests (knee injuries, etc.). i think it is your reaction to these tests for which you are rewarded or punished.

why is there evil?

how can one appreciate positive w/o negative?

[This message has been edited by verse (edited December 09, 1999).]

Cohen

12-09-1999, 12:56 PM

For the atheistic science types,
If the big bang had been a small fraction of a degree cooler or hotter (and we know it was pretty toasty anyway), solar systems would not have formed. Does this present a philosophical problem for you, or do you find comfort in the 'infinite universes' hypothesis. Does this provide food-for-thought for you agnostics?

BlastOff

12-09-1999, 02:00 PM

Plato,

If it's tangible proof you're looking for, you know as well I do that you're unlikely to find it. No one can "take you to see the Wizard". Someday we all will, hopefully and finally put these important questions to rest. It was fun reading and somewhat understanding where you're coming from. Thought provoking questions like yours are the footsteps down the path to answers.

...and when you find them (tangible ones I might add) let us all know! http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

SpaceCity

12-09-1999, 02:35 PM

I have problems with organized religion in general. I'm not saying that I don't believe in a greater "force", I just have questions about about humankind's interpretation of "It".

I agree with Plato that religion on the most part is a human creation; an answer to things that have no answers.

I grew up in a tiny East Texas town and had to attend a Southern Baptist church until I was old enough to recognize the hypocracy that surrounds small town religion.

I am one who follows my heart. I understand good and evil. I believe "the golden rule" sums it all up pretty nicely. I question the validity of many religious views and the "writings" that support all of these religions.

Most of the sorrow in this world is due to humans who judge and kill others because of their beliefs. I cannot see how this is God's will. No one religion is correct, in my opinion.

Every religion has a bible; a book of morals and stories and rules. Every religion is unique. They all believe in a higher power of some sort but they all have different rules, morals and stories.

All of these books and stories were written by HUMANS in ancient times. These stories are told, retold and passed down from generation to generation.

Who is right? No one? Every one? Does it really matter?

To this day we have ancient writings that we can't decipher, and these writings are more recent than those of most religions. Scholars are still trying to decipher the writings of Nostrodamus. It's easy, in hindsight, to say "This is what he meant." My point is that the bible is no different. We all know how stories change when passed from one person to another. Why is the various bibles taken so literal?

We are all one people yet we segregate according to religious beliefs and skin color.

Religion is a lot like fashion; it changes with the times. Christianity is one of the more recents interpretations of God and possibly the most judgemental of them all.

Jah, Buddah, Allah, Jesus, .....etc.

They are all one and the same yet throughout history we kill others in each of thier names. Do you think that's they/he/it had in mind?

Anyway, I hope I didn't rattle any cages out there! Like I said, I am a believer of all things good. I believe in a greater "force". I simply have a hard time with the human interpretation of it.

------------------
SpaceCity of
RocketFuel (http://www.t1.com/lon/rockets/)

verse

12-09-1999, 03:25 PM

Plato,

i'll itemize my answers to your questions in a sec, but time forces me, temporarily, to make this response brief.

as for good vs. evil, i believe, as i think you do, that they are truly subjective with the exception of knowledge. knowledge would be the only definite "good". this is the exact principle which i base my life upon - the seeking of knowledge or truth.

those which choose to diagnose events as "good" or "bad" are comparing the events to previous events in their life. those things which benefitted them will often be perceived as "good" and vice-versa. i'm sure you see the fault in this logic.

as for "God", i hold a slightly different perspective than what society does. this is why i said that it would be a disservice to anyone to assume they know who or what i am. simply put (if that's possible http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/wink.gif), i do believe in spirits. this is not only going from a "feeling" that i have. this is going from 1st hand experiences. physical, tangible experiences with those spirits.

now, if you asked me about "God", i'd tell you that "He" is spirituality. in other words, i believe that the spirits in which i have felt and seen and believe, are definitely not "of this world". and if, in fact, there is a governing spirit over all of these spirits, then that is "God". by the same token, these spirits have the ability to guide. there are those who will say they are God.

myself....i believe they are not God in the literal sense, since their are both negative and positive spirits. however, those which guide me towards positivity/knowledge, are beneficial to me. i know when i am "going down the right path" in life. and my rewards come when i do these things.

Will

12-09-1999, 05:28 PM

Plato, I gather your post in the other thread was making the point that my claim -- "everything does not happen for a reason" -- is compatible with mechanistic determinism but not with teleological determinism. I agree. I think teleological determinism is patently false (with apologies to your namesake), whereas I simply don't WANT to believe that mechanistic determinism is true. I WANT to believe in free will. And I think I can defend that belief practically if not theoretically.

Look at it this way. A bunch of you say that God knows what will happen next. Fine. Next question: Does He ever intervene to change what will happen next, and if so, does He heed our requests (prayers)? You can answer yes or no.

If your answer is yes, then not only do you have to explain why God would let Charles Barkley suffer a career-ending injury last night, you also have to explain why so many innocent people have starved and been slaughtered throughout history despite having prayed to God for help. You have to explain why God did not intervene to save them.

If your answer is no -- and that's my answer -- then your premise that God knows what will happen next is practically irrelevant. It literally makes no difference. What's the next sentence I'm going to type? There, I just decided. There is no measurable difference between a world in which there is no God, and a world in which God "knew" what I was going to type next but did nothing about it. If I had typed a different sentence, you could have said the same thing: God knew what I was going to type. I could just as easily say that the invisible Man in the Moon knew what I was going to type.

The point is, for all practical purposes, what I type next is up to me. I could go out in the street right now and mug an old lady. Or I could give a dollar to a homeless person. No matter which course I take, you'll say afterward that God knew I was going to take that course and not the other. So I might as well act "as though" I have free will, and do the right thing.

What troubles me is when the illusion (as I see it) of God's intervention in the world changes human behavior. Suppose the Rockets are in the final seconds of a tie game during a losing season, and the Rockets shoot and miss, and the other team brings the ball back down court for a final possession, and one of the Rockets thinks to himself, "I guess we're just not meant to win games this year." That illusion of futility can dampen that player's effort on that possession. Likewise, I don't like it when Charles Barkley says "the big fella upstairs" is sending him a message to retire. If Barkley is rationalizing his own decision, I wish he'd leave God out of it and just own up to the decision. But if he really thinks God is sending him a message, then he's making a momentous decision based on a false belief.

Look, we probably all agree that Barkley is physically finished and should just get the surgery and try to recover so he can play golf and walk around and enjoy the rest of his life. But this illusion of fate -- which too often has real and bad effects -- troubles me.

CaucasionSensation

12-09-1999, 06:02 PM

Verse, are you a Christian Scientist? From what I know they believe much along those lines. They strive heavily to attain knowledge.

CaucasionSensation

12-09-1999, 06:14 PM

Blastoff - "In my humble opinion, no one can say exactly what our purpose(s) for being is. From scripture, we were put here simply to multiply and fill the earth. Mission accomplished. There could be a broader purpose, a purpose well beyond the earth, the solar system, the universe even. Again, back to spirituality and the spiritual realm."

We were put here to make disciples of all men, that is our job now.

[This message has been edited by CaucasionSensation (edited December 09, 1999).]

Stone Cold Hakeem

12-09-1999, 06:59 PM

----> Will

I have so much admiration for your masterful use of the English language......are you a writer?

rimbaud

12-09-1999, 07:29 PM

I must agree with Plato on most of his arguments. I am especially glad that he brought up the point of God creating evil (which I notice no one touched).
Plato:
you noted several books, but I saw you missed a few:
Bertrand Russel - Why I am not a Christian
Michael Bakunin - God and the State
Camus - The Absurd
David Hume - Why Does God Let People Suffer?
JS Mill's Autobiography
Just a few with various arguments/refutations.
Anyway, who would have thought - on a basketball site - that people could calmy talk about religion?

Jeff

12-09-1999, 08:01 PM

This is very deep. I didn't have the pleasure of reading the previous thread, but I'll put in my two cents.

I was raised Christian but have gone the opposite direction in the past 7 or 8 years. Actually, now I feel a greater kinship with non-theistic religions like Buddhism and Taoism.

I don't believe in A God (big G) as much as I believe that god is a presence that exists within and without all of us. Even the Bible describes God as "omnipresent" meaning everywhere at once - inside and outside everything.

Also, Jesus said, "If you look for the Kingdom of Heaven in the sky, the birds will find it first. If you look for it in the water, the fish will find it first. For I say unto you, the Kingdom of Heaven is not outside of you but within you." He also said, "Is it not written in your laws that I have said you are all gods?"

These don't sound like the words of a contemporary conservative Christian!

I just think that all the things that are most common among religious beliefs of all kinds - love, justice, a deeper understanding of our place in the world, a life beyond that of form - are the same. Only the way they are interpreted changes and that is due mainly to the sociology of the people under whom it grew and changed.

Just like societal cultures, religious culture offers us a glimpse of what is wonderful and what is horrible. Just as there are fundamentalist Muslims who blow up planes and shoot people in the name of Islam, there are Sufis, the Islamic mystics, who whirl themselves into trance dances and speak of love of all humans regardless of their religion.

Just as those claiming Jesus as their savior blow up abortion clinics, others build houses for the homeless and feed the starving.

The best and worst of all we have to offer as humans is on full display both in secular society and religious convention. It is up to us to see the best in all of it and do what we can to further those ideals.

Will

12-09-1999, 10:48 PM

SCH -- Thanks for your kind words. Yes, I am. And I've been very impressed with the quality of writing by many people on this BBS. It's very unusual for a sports fan site. There will always be trolls and trashmouths and illiterate attention hounds here as elsewhere, but there's a healthy supply of regulars here who maintain a level of civility, wit, and intelligent argument that makes Clutchcity.net the best damn fan site on the Web.

I mean, where else can you debate free will and the art of rebounding at the same time?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 09, 1999).]

Doctor Robert

12-09-1999, 11:43 PM

From being interested in science, raised a christian, attending one philosophy class (made a C), having a abnormal psychology roommate in school, and being obsessed with what constitutes a genius I currently believe that if there is a creator that he has no relationship to the universe. I also think that my desire to believe in a creator comes from ego or my inability to visualize the universe. Mostly what I think about now is if consiousness could be made up of components like memory, pattern recognition, representation, etc (all the things that AI guys talk about). If that is possible then it seems that there might be a universe without a relationship to its creator, one that could be explained. Currently the existence of a soul poses the question of a seperate physical/spiritual universe.

One thing that recently made me really question my belief that the universe is explainable is that I met a person with a photographic memory. The guy, one of my professors, in one second was able to recall my entire semester's attendance record... and he never took roll. If you had a laser disc library that stored everything in this guys head it would weigh 2000 pounds. Where does it all go? Somewhere else?

Doctor Robert

12-09-1999, 11:53 PM

Blastoff, I would say that your comparison - the intangible argument is very interesting and the one that I hear most often. My response is that the intangible wind, if you examine it more closely could be captured in a bottle and frozen. Have you ever played with liquid oxygen? Its fun and very tangible. Is it possible that our intangible god is the same way, just more complicated?

Will, I agree free will and rebounding are great topics to mix and I always find something interesting on this board to read. I also enjoy this board's sense of humor.

Plato

12-10-1999, 01:09 AM

(1) if nothing is inherently good or evil (which i agree with) than what exactly does it mean to be good or evil? you say that it depends on the situation, the perspective of the individual, but by what standard does that perceiver judge X as good or evil? is it happiness? well, ok, but then what does happiness mean? my personal feeling is that good and bad are purely subjective terms. i do however buy into the idea that understanding is good i.e. - the more your intellect comprehends and understands, the better you are (maybe this is something like becoming closer to God, from a religious perspective)

(2) i guess i meant in any way. what in fact does it mean for God to interact directly as distinct from indirectly?

(3) is it wrong to say that upon this stance will is in some way a gift through the grace of God? assuming this what you mean (correct me if i'm wrong), (a) why put us through this test? what is the purpose? a standard answer here would be that this is beyong our comprehension. granted, if this is the defense, then a further question (in fact even if this is not the defense) is (b) how do we know all this stuff about a test and God's grace? is this all attributable to scripture?

(4) so evil is there for us to understand or appreciate good. my question is: why do we need to understand or appreciate good? a world without evil, assuming evil in a way defines good, would be a world of no value judgment. what is wrong with that?

(5) just a little question that is sort of fun to think about: many religious conceptions state that God is omnipotent, omnibeneficent, and infinite. if he is the 2nd, then there are clear problems with evil and its causation. let us assume for now that he is just the first, omnipotent. my question is then, can God do evil? if yes, then it is conceded that God does evil, if no it is conceded that God is not omnipotent.

BlastOff

12-10-1999, 01:18 AM

Plato,

If your stance is that we have no tangible proof either way, I'd have to agree with you. However, there are intangibles that lend some credibility to God's existence.

From a physical sense, the wind could be considered intangible. By definition, it is an invisible force. It cannot be seen or touched (unless interacting with the environment around it), but you can feel it.

In like manner, God cannot be seen or touched, but you can feel Him (not necessarily in a physical way, but in the mind or the heart).

Believers in God are believers in spirituality. He isn't limited to physicality like we are (at least, while we're here).

BlastOff

12-10-1999, 01:26 AM

(3) is it wrong to say that upon this stance will is in some way a gift through the grace of God? assuming this what you mean (correct me if i'm wrong), (a) why put us through this test? what is the purpose? a standard answer here would be that this is beyong our comprehension. granted, if this is the defense, then a further question (in fact even if this is not the defense) is (b) how do we know all this stuff about a test and God's grace? is this all attributable to scripture?

All intriguing questions!

In my humble opinion, no one can say exactly what our purpose(s) for being is. From scripture, we were put here simply to multiply and fill the earth. Mission accomplished. There could be a broader purpose, a purpose well beyond the earth, the solar system, the universe even. Again, back to spirituality and the spiritual realm.

Plato

12-10-1999, 01:40 AM

Cohen:
i don't think this problem really hurts the religious people. in fact it may help them - they could say something like because of the slight chance that the universe could have turned out the way it did, it seem unavoidable that we admit of divine intervention.

BlastOff:
i guess this is where our opinions part and we cannot argue. i do not have that "feeling" and you apparently do, there is nothing really to argue about. unless i am having that feeling but do not realize it. my feel is predictably skeptical. does a very ill-defined spiritual "feeling" as the only proof for something so substantial as God even beging to convince me of anything? not at all. but then again, maybe that "feelin" is not so il-defined for some as for others. maybe i will get it some time. part of me would welcome that.

rimbaud

12-10-1999, 01:41 AM

Doctor Robert:

Actually everyone remembers everything they see, smell, hear, etc. Everything is stored in our brains somewhere - it is just a matter of recall. Those with photographic memories, for some reason, can tap into everything much easier. I have known people like that and they really do not enjoy it. The only reason all of those laser discs would weigh so much is because they are solid - knowledge weighs nothing. We know nothing of the limits (or limitlessness) of our brains. That is scary enough.

Doctor Robert

12-10-1999, 02:52 AM

I just wanted to illustrate the fact that the amount of information this guy could recall was unbelievable. Memories take up space in the brain and it would seem that the brain could fill up at some point, but it hasn't yet. Check this out, we do know a lot about the brain, I'm not sure what we know about it's limits.

Read the "Building a Database" section:

http://www.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/archive/1995/950717/950717.cover.html

RocketScientist

12-10-1999, 11:12 AM

I would like to apologize for continuing this thread and then disappearing, but I was extremely busy yesterday soon afterwards.

I couldn't possibly cover every point and issue raised here, but let me attempt to tackle a few with my limited knowledge of things.

First, I believe that a person's experiences and study of this broad subject determine and unequivocally reflect the direction of one's beliefs and knowledge of the subject.

My own personal expereience comes from both study of different philosophers and philsophies of many world religions, as well as direct experience of subjective, intangible forces, both human and I believe otherwise.

With that, I contest that the single most important thing in any human beings lifetime is to attain knowledge of the true reality of themself. In other words, to form a belief based on first hand knowledge and experience. To go on a journey to find God. On this journey, at some point, the individual will come to a realization on the nature of reality. This is both a dynamic as well as continuous process throughout the course of one's life.

So what I am saying is that if you don't go looking for the truth, you don't hold any credibility in my book. Of course, I believe that this is ingrained within the nature of man, and that nearly every one of us has gone on this search, to some extent.

Why is this important? Because without this desire to search for the reality of our existence, the indiviual will have a very vague idea for his purpose in life. The answer to the question: "Does God exist?" governs every aspect of our life. This in turn creates the individual's lifestyle, and the way in which they choose to live.

Does God exist? This is the ultimate question, and no individual should be satisfied during their lifetime, unless they have answered this question for themselves.
To leave it at, "I don't know, or maybe, but if something changes my mind in the future", is not good enough. One should form a definite opinion, but at the same time, never become closed to any future knowledge that may change your current stance. This open mindedness is extremely important if one wishes to reach any truly Enlightened state.

.............................

No matter who you are, no one person's explanation of the reality is the way all things are. Some philosophers usually put the nature of reality in very ambiguous terms and state that the this reality is very complex. Others simplify.

I think we can all agree to the nature of reality as being remarkably simple, it is described in a few short statements:

1. There is a reality that we can all perceive, the universe, or creation as I like to call it, exists and includes all that is out there...everything on Earth, all humans, the sun, moon, stars, galaxies, superclusters, etc...EVERYTHING. Whether we agree our universe is the only universe, or if it is fixed in mass, or if it is continuously expanding/contracting, or whatever the case may be, the universe is our direct reality and as we imagine it and talk about it, we talk about the same universe/reality/creation.

2a. This reality/universe/creation came into being randomly by itself.

OR

2b. A divine being CREATED this reality/universe/creation.

Gotta cut this short...will continue later.

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

RocketScientist

12-10-1999, 12:18 PM

The Universe: Our Reality

As humans, we perceive this physical universe using our bodily senses via our brain. These senses however do not always satisfy us beyond our basic needs. There is a part of us that needs to be satisfied by all types of social interactions as well as subjective intangible feelings like love and happiness. We also perceive other feelings like hurt, anger, and fear which are not basic instincts of animals.
These things are not part of our physical reality in this universe, but rather occupy either another part of our reality or another dimension to our universe/reality/creation.

WHy have the most influential people in history been Prophets and spiritual leaders. Because they appealed to and satisfied this invisible, intangible, need of man to know the reality of their universe. Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, and Abraham (peace be upon them all), Ghandi, Bhudda, even Einstein all helped mankind to better understand the nature of their reality and universe.
More than 95% of man follows these people. Why? Humans are weak minded and need a crutch? How is satisfying a basic need a crutch? Is eating a crutch or is it an essential way to nourish and sustain your physical body? Is having a shelter for your body a crutch or is it an essential need for man to protect his body from harm in order to ensure a good future for that body.

Is finding God to exist and following his instructions for the nourishment of the soul via good deeds/prayer/meditation and his advice on proction of that sould from harm of sins to ensure the future of that soul a crutch or a necessity and need for us?

If God created us would he have left us without these instructions if he was truly beneficient? He would not, so he gave his message and instructions through these messengers. These people were all from among ourselves, they were not Angels or aliens, but humans like us.

If I were to begin my journey to find God, I would begin by wondering, if He exists, then wouldn't he have given us some reason to our creation and purpose to our lives? So the first place to turn would be the world religions.

To be continued....

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

[This message has been edited by RocketScientist (edited December 10, 1999).]

RocketScientist

12-10-1999, 12:33 PM

Plato, Will, and all... what happens after you die?

Don't know?

WEll...either:

1. Nothing
2. Something

If 2, then:

1. We become part of the collective consiousness of life and spirits until we decide we want to experience a physical life again and come back to an Earth to live another life.

2.Immediately reincarnated into a new form of life because that's the way things are and always have been.

2. Become part of the Earth(dust/soil/vegetation) as our life force fuses with the environment around our grave and we become one with the Earth until our life force accumulates and eventually becomes great enough to reach self-consiousness in the form of some other animal. Unless Earth is destroyed in which case we wait for Earth's particles(and ours) to eventually fuse with another planet capable of supporting life or wait for our solar system to be destroyed and then eventually our particles will become part of some other solar system, world, capable of supporting life(billions of years?)

3. We go to our grave and are concious of the world around us via our soul until the end of time when we are reserrected, judged by God, and then sent to heaven or hell for eternity.

4. We are immediately judged by God and sent to heaven or hell.

Please fill in the possibilities I have missed.

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

RocketScientist

12-10-1999, 12:34 PM

Rimbaud,

Evil.

Why?

I will edit this response to fill in the answer, outta time now. Sorry.

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

RocketScientist

12-10-1999, 12:37 PM

Why are we here?

So guys, what's our purpose? Is there one, or is it just that we have this golden opportunity, once in a trillion years, to have this gift of life, so we should live it to the fullest.

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

rimbaud

12-10-1999, 04:40 PM

RocketScientist:

I will save the evil discussion for later (I am assuming you will ask a question or give your answer later - or was that a question?). As far as purpose, I will confess that I beleiev there is no devine or "grand" purpose - I do not think people are "put on this earth" to cure cancer or die or catch interceptions (sorry, something Dieon said...). Does that make life futile, I do not believe so. I feel that everyone should have the same goal in life - regardless of religion - and that is to grow, improve, and evolve (in every aspect of life). I do, however, think that the most sacred things in our lives should be our brains - they are far superior to anything else with which we come into contact. So much so that they can go beyond our bodies - causing (I believe) many situations that would reinforce a religious view). Is this coherent? I always write in a stream-of-consciousness form.

Additionally, we are not that unique. People often suggest that we could not just be this big coincidence - that we had to have been created by a guiding force. But all life is a progression, It is not one coincidence, but many events feeding off of each other over an infinite (a whole argument on its own) amount of time.

What does the evidence of basic life on Mars do to the religion/God issue? What about other planets, galaxies, etc. Did God create life there?

This is getting worse as it progresses, I will end until discussion continues.

Jeff

12-10-1999, 10:39 PM

rimbaud:

Most important thing in life = brain? or mind?

rimbaud

12-10-1999, 11:40 PM

Funny, I could have sworn I wrote mind - I did not understand what you meant until I reread what I wrote...thanks.

thacabbage

12-11-1999, 12:39 AM

For those of you in seek of guidance and The Truth, and are basically in search of religion, I suggest you study 'Islam' in detail. I myself have found through studies this religion to be the most complete, the most sensible in entirety. The religion itself is like a jigsaw puzzle...all of the peices seem to fit easily together, no contradictions. I suggest everyone of you to give it a try. You might find from it what I have.

Jeff:

Just as there are fundamentalist Muslims who blow up planes and shoot people in the name of Islam, there are Sufis, the Islamic mystics, who whirl themselves into trance dances and speak of love of all humans regardless of their religion.

I know you were just using this as an example within your argument, but I just wanted to extend on it:

I think the media has painted an image of the modern Muslim as that of a terrorist, and this is a very dangerous stereotype that is arising within the society. The word "Islam" itself comes from the root word in English meaning "peace." Islam is all about peace, brotherhood, and these misconceptions should be cleared up.

Islam is also the fastest growing religion to date and is on track to become the most populous religion in the world. Just look at our own Hakeem Olajuwon. He is a great example of what being a Muslim is all about. The man is humble, quiet, generous, thoughtful...the list goes on.

I just encourage anyone in doubt to study Islam. It will answer a world of questions for you.

[This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited December 11, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited December 11, 1999).]

thacabbage

12-11-1999, 01:31 AM

Let me just try to give the Islamic stance on "God controls will.." etc.

First of all, God created human beings as the greatest of all creatures. He gave them intelligence far superior to any other creature and most important of all, he gave them "free will." Human beings have been given the choice to make their own decisions with the intellect God has provided them. It is up to you what you do with your life. However, to clear up confusion, "GOD knows everything and about your destiny." You have a choice of what you want to do with your life, God does not control that, but he DOES know what will happen.

Moving on..

Look at it this way. A bunch of you say that God knows what will happen next. Fine. Next question: Does He ever intervene to change what will happen next, and if so, does He heed our requests (prayers)? You can answer yes or no.

Will, yes. God has the power, and does intervene at our request.

If your answer is yes, then not only do you have to explain why God would let Charles Barkley suffer a career-ending injury last night, you also have to explain why so many innocent people have starved and been slaughtered throughout history despite having prayed to God for help. You have to explain why God did not intervene to save them.

Will, you have to understand this from an Islamic point of view. God listens to all prayers, my friend. Those poor, innocent people dyeing in Bosnia are praying left and right. God hears their prayers, and although it seems nothing is happening, their reward will come in the after-life. I know it may seem like a tough concept to understand, but to simply put it...this world is just a test for mankind. Human beings have to stay strong and have belief that God has the power to help them. God has said that every person will endure tests in this life. Some people have more difficult tests [ie: starvation] than others, but they must keep the faith. If they do that and have faith in God, their prayers will be counted in the after-life. Sometimes God chooses to reward you for your prayers in THIS LIFE by answering NOW...but I promise to you, your efforts are not in vain. Prayer to God for help counts towards the after-life.

May God forgive me if I have said anything wrong.

[This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited December 11, 1999).]

RocketScientist

12-11-1999, 01:50 AM

rimbaud,

as I stated in one of my posts earlier, the universe, reality, and creation are all terms that are synonymous with one another. Our conversation on what the universe is or how it came into being relies on the premise that naturally, we are both talking about the same universe. Therefore, life on Mars does not really have anything to do with religion or God. These two things are perfectly compatible with each other.

This would be the beginning of yet another topic however, 'God, evolution, and his relation to creation'.

This particular arguement would be more of a side discussion which would not really affect the topic at hand, which is the existence of God. If GOd did create us on Earth, why would it be so difficult to create some on another planet? Besides, we would be classified as a 'higher' form of life, bacteria or invertabrates on Mars are just life, not consious beings with souls.

Cab, at this point in time, it would probably be better not to throw one specific thought or religion out there as the answer to everything. What would be good, is to use perhaps the logic or philosophy from that religion as a source of your statements in this discussion. Please specify how it would relate, answer, or explain the topic......I do have to agree about the bad rap of Islam. It is completely unwarranted and simply propaganda by the Western media to try to create the next 'enemy'. I think that intelligent people don't listen to everything on TV/newspaper, and know the difference between a God fearing person who follows the FUNDAMENTALS of their religion (Muslim Fundamentalist) and one who murders and commits suicide (Muslim Extremist and really just plain lunatic, with Muslim just in there because that is how he was born). Like Rage Against the Machine says...they tried to blame it on Islam....

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

RocketScientist

12-11-1999, 01:55 AM

Cab,

Disregard my request to be more specific. Your message came in before I submitted the last one.

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

Jeff

12-11-1999, 10:52 AM

Cabbage:

Point well taken. I didn't mean to suggest all Muslims are terrorists, just to make a point.

One note however on religion:

it is very important to make a distinction between what is dogmatic (rules & practices) in a religion and what is spiritual.

Ultimately, spirituality (in the case of religion, discovering the divine whether that be God, 'g'od, spirit, soul, prana, whatever, and our personal connection to what is devine) should be most important. All religions have that innate spirituality. It is our responsibility to determine that for ourselves.

Unfortunately, many religions and practicioners get caught up in the dogma and forget about the rest. God knows (all puns intended) I have a number of friends who go to church and pray but have no real spiritual basis for their lives. They follow the rules but don't follow their hearts.

So, to clarify my point on religous extremists, religion is what you make of it. Ultimately, God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Yaweh, Divine Mother are all the essence of what is best in all of us or love to be overly simplistic. If you choose dogma over karma (anybody seen that bumper sticker?), you ultimately find no happiness and that is what life is all about, no?

rimbaud

12-11-1999, 11:11 AM

Cabbage:

You are right(as the others have said) about the perception of Islam. The terrorism aspect has less to do with religion adn more to do with US foreign policy in the region dating back to the 40's. Islam is an interesting religion, but certainly not perfect. And, as Jeff said, just as susceptible to abuse and evil.

RocketScientist:

I agree, that was a side issue - I just threw it out (with the original intent to make a comment on the non-uniqueness of our world and lives). But what were you saying about evil?

AntiSonic

12-11-1999, 03:18 PM

Just wanted to chime in on one of the greatest threads in BBS history.

I've been raised as a Baptist, but I've become increasingly interested in Deism over the years.

A few years back, I was completely turned off by religion. Reviewing the sordid history of the Roman Catholic Church(this is not a slam on Catholicism, but rather its corrupt leaders during the Middle Ages), and seeing hypocritical television evangelists interested in nothing more than money made me sick. <U>The Inferno</U> didn't do much to raise my opinion of God either.

I didn't exactly like the concept of having to worship and fear a God that didn't exactly do all that much for me. It seemed a lot like a bunch of savages fearing the wrath of some idol they created and sacrificing virgins to it. George Carlin's "God is the leading cause of death" comment on the Old Testament comes to mind.

Some time later I began pondering what the nothingness of a godless afterlife would be. Maybe my mind is too simple, but I just couldn't imagine what it would be like to have the mental activity of a couch.

Then the whole Creation aspect came in. If matter can neither be created nor destoryed, than where in the heck did all of this stuff come from?

So I chose the simplest explanation possible. God created the Universe. While it may sound ridiculous to some, and it certainly raises questions of its own(for instance, who or what made God?) it provided a better answer for me to my question than an explosion in the middle of endless nothingness.

Now, as just a Christian(not Baptist, Roman Catholic, or any other sect) I've found my own views on God with the help of some of a lot of different beliefs.

I believe that God created everything, but I also believe in Evolution. I see nothing wrong with having those two concepts go hand in hand. I mean, why wouldn't God see fit to take a lower form of life and mold it into something more along His own image?

I also believe that while God did give us free will, He is omniscient. He knows what decisions we will make, but if he sees fit He will alter His plan somewhat to answer our prayers. On another note, if you ask God for something long enough and truly want it, He will deliver.

I hate the concept of fearing God. I try my best not to sin out of my love for Him and respect for His greatness rather than the fear of Him sending me to Hell forever. I elieve that if I'm a good person, do good things, and above all know and love God I don't have anything to worry about.

On Divine Intervention, I do believe in it, but only when our decisions can actually destory us as a people. For instance, I believe he did play a role in not bringing the world to nuclear Armageddon back in the 60s.

Maybe I'm just not intelligent enough for atheist views. Maybe the concept of a Godless universe scares me. Maybe I just want something to belive in. Whatever the reason, I like the basic Christian concepts the best. I respect all other religions, but some of them just don't do anything for me. That's why I also believe that the individual should choose his/her own religion after carefully reviewing other options.

Sorry for the lengthy rant but just wanted to post from a Baptist-turned- Atheist-turned-Christian's point of view.

[This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited December 11, 1999).]

rimbaud

12-11-1999, 04:45 PM

AntiSonic:

The purpose of life is to never call yourself not intelligent enough. The myth that some people are more intelligent than others is just that - a myth. It is only a matter priorities. Besides, you are young and have plenty of time to solidify your beliefs. If I may, however, respond to your post:

After one's initial refutation, there is always a period of reverting back to the original belief. It is human nature. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that it is a natural progression. Perhaps your beliefs are stronger because of your initial questioning. However, it sounds as if right now you are choosing convenience and comfort (it makes you feel better to beleive there is something). I will not argue this because it is your belief - just as long as you to not bash or persecute, etc (as you said you do not). All of the smart people are not atheist, all religious are not dumb. All we can try to do is be intelligent with our beliefs - whichever side they are.

[This message has been edited by rimbaud (edited December 11, 1999).]

RocketScientist

12-11-1999, 05:56 PM

AntiSonic,

Great post, I must say that your experience and knowledge seem to be carefully thought out. I respect your views and they very closely match mine, especially the part of evolution and GOd being able to coexist. This is truly a very important idea that people have to begin to understand to move forward both as a species, humankind, as well as to advance human's science and technology to the next level. Sure we are moving forward rapidly in the technology areas of the world, but both science and technology would be able to take leaps and bound if they were to work on the premise that there is a GOd responsible for what they investigate. This would help them see a bigger picture in many areas.

By the way, I have a very good explanation and theory on the GOd + evolution theory and how they co-exist. If anyone wants to hear, I'll be glad to rant.

Rimbaud, I didn't forget about evil and why, I'm just waiting for this discussion to get to that point.

As far as what you said of Antisonic's possible 'relapse' into religion, it's equally possible that once an enlightened thinker gets to "what if there is no God" and accepts this, he doesn't take the next step to look at the consequences or take time to reevaluate his stance and go back to religion. Either way everyone travels through the journey to find God through many different paths.

With that, I ask anyone this, if there is a GOd, then what will you do after you die?

Antisonic, you said that you should avoid sin and do good to please God but not out of your fear for him, well then what is the purpose of this life if not for the next life?

IF there is a heaven and a hell, then what? Obviously, these two would not be clouds with angels and fire and brimstone, we can imagine a much more diverse spectrum of heavens and hells. These could be places where a soul is rewarded in one way and punished in another by regrets of what they did in their chance on Earth.

I do believe this life is a trial. We were not put here for no reason. We were not put here without instructions on how to live this life. We are being tested in every action we do based on its intention. This will determine our ultimate fate. This life is like training for another life. The instructions tell us how to prepare for that better life. That life is like the evolution of our being into the next phase. That phase will have us be able to reach our dreams and satisfy our truest desires.

Alright, the cats out of the bag, that's what I believe.

This is what I've come to from my years of study and experiences through this life. My lowest points in life have been followed by the highest (the brightest moments come right after the darkest times). I believe that every person that has ever tried to reach the truth has come to the point in their life where a startling realization hits them. That point is the starting point of the true thought experience. That point is when a soul denies its Creator, and wonders...Is there nothing? Does GOd exist? Have I been fooled all my life? Is this possible?

Staring at this void and darkness of solitude dead cold in the face and taking it like the greatest beating that your soul has ever experienced, that is the birthplace of wisdom. This is where the seed of enlightenment begins to take root.

At this point some people 'accept' this reality and begin advancing in studies like atheism and pantheism, while completeley staying away from any religios philosophies or dogmas out of sheer disgust for them, because they feel as though they were betrayed by religion all these years prior to this realization. Others make it their new quest, job, challenge, and mission in life to find the ultimate truth. These people begin reviewing all philosophies, including religious, athiestic, as well as pantheistic.

The void of nothingness, is a beautiful place. People take it different ways. Some get disheartened while others find peace. I believe that this place is a truth. In other words, it is real and exists. However, after spiralling down it and becoming terrified of it, I slowly found out how to live with it and to accept it as well as explain it.

This creation, or Universe, is Something. ? . In other words, it is not Nothing. But, whether GOd created it or it came into being by itself, SOmething came from Nothing, because before there was something, there must have been Nothing. Logical? Yes.

I'll expand on this, but right now I'm out of time. I'll be back. Sorry.

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

rimbaud

12-11-1999, 10:43 PM

38 posts and still no name calling or rude comments - this is going well.

RocketScientist:

Ok, if this life is a trial, then what sets the standard for judgement? Within Christianity alone, there are many different interpretations calling for many different guidelines. What is a sin, how many sins must be commited, are we born with sin, etc. It all varies. What about morality in general...is it absolute or is it really relative? Is judgement based on life decisions/actions or thoughts (punished for not believing) - or both? Once (if) all of that can be settled, then comes judgement.
I believe you are advocating fear and love for God (please correct me if I am wrong).
What happens if you are judged negatively? Eternal suffering? Torture, forced depression, fire, serpents, inflicted anguish, mental deterioration - the knowledge that all the pain will never end. Everything listed in the previous sentence is generally considered to be various evils. If one man tortures another, that is an evil act. But instead, God is creating and distributing evil? The Bible can get pretty explicit. So, why? How? Is God benevolent? If so, why so much emphasis on evil - punishment for mistakes?

Alas, I must end now, without properly finishing....

Almu

12-12-1999, 07:59 PM

This thread is a little personal for me. I had a bad time with religion. Hence, I have changed my stance to where I believe what Jesus said. He said "God is inside us. Not outside."

So, when I am in pain, I pray. When I am in sorrow, I pray. When I am in need, I pray. When I am in trouble, I pray. If I am confused, I pray.

Does that mean that God answers each and everytime I pray? No. Does that mean He is not around? No. To me, it means that He hears me, but its up to Him to answer. Each and everytime I wanted to turn my back on myself or humanity in general, there was something that happened to ME that cannot be explained. Luck? I don't know. But luck is when you guess the right 6 numbers in the lotto and not when you crash into a tree at 60mph, with no seatbelts around you and you only suffer a busted lip. He might not help help me now when I want a Mercedes for my birthday, but for the couple of times that I thought there was no way out for me or my family, somehow, someway, I/we made it out.

I let my guidance come from my conscious which I believe is led by my constant belief that God is in everyone and He can lead you if you just listen to Him inside you. Everything won't be golden. But I would rather starve and have inner peace, then to have Him answer me with riches and wealth and have me crying inside.

We should all just let our conscious guide us. You don't need to read the Bible to know that everyone is evil and at the same time, everyone is good. Don't you think evil things alot? No matter how good you are, you have evil inside you. What about that time when you just wanted to punch someone in the mouth when they told you that if it wasn't for Jordan retiring, the Rockets would be ringless? But did you punch them? No. Why? Because your conscious tells you not to. And that, my friend, is God speaking to you.

------------------
Live Rocketball. Breathe Rocketball. Die with Rocketball.

[This message has been edited by Almu (edited December 12, 1999).]

Will

12-12-1999, 08:10 PM

I still don't see a practical answer to my original question: If God intervenes in the world (which I don't think He does), then how do you explain why innocent people who pray to him for help nevertheless starve and are slaughtered by the millions?

Thacabbage answers that those people are rewarded in the afterlife. This answer may be true, but it is completely unverifiable. I could just as easily assert that only Rockets fans go to Heaven, and all Jazz fans go to Hell. You could reply that my belief must be false because God is by definition good, and it would be evil to send all Jazz fans to hell. But then I would offer this reply in turn: Every religion that claims that its adherents go to Heaven and that those who rejects its teachings go to Hell is just as irrational. My argument for this point is that no truly just and loving God would condemn to eternal suffering a person who lived a just and loving life but did not acknowledge God's existence. In my opinion, no deity who so categorically defies the human understanding of goodness and mercy -- and we have no other ultimate basis on which to make this fundamental decision -- is worth worshipping.

Furthermore, there is an empirical argument against the afterlife as a rationale for God's apparent toleration of evil. Historically, theories of an afterlife have been offered by religions, and embraced by suffering people, to justify oppression. Religions taught poor people that their suffering in this life would be rewarded in the next. Slaves told themselves and each other that they would finally get justice and happiness in the afterlife. The result of these stories -- which in my opinion was intended by the religions that promulgated them -- was that slaves and poor people endured their lot in life and did not rebel. Thus, justice in this world was delayed or denied in the name of justice in the next. This observation does not prove that theories of the afterlife are false. But it ought to cast well-founded suspicion on them.

AntiSonic

12-12-1999, 09:34 PM

"My argument for this point is that no truly just and loving God would condemn to eternal suffering a person who lived a just and loving life but did not acknowledge God's existence. In my opinion, no deity who so categorically defies the human understanding of goodness and mercy -- and we have no other ultimate basis on which to make this fundamental decision -- is worth worshipping."

Will- that was one of my biggest beefs with religion a few years ago. Reading some of Dante's stuff really turned me off because people were condemned to horrible punishments for rather petty "sins." God basically comes off as a jealous and bitter hypocrite who unjustly punishes imperfect people.

Of course <U>The Inferno</U> is a work of fiction, but there is still the whole issue of an ancient higher caste possibly creating religion to keep the workers/slaves/untouchables in submission. I don't particularly believe this theory because, like Almu, just way too many turnarounds happen in my life to be a coincidence.

As for not answering the prayers of the millions of starving people, I've got to go with Cabbage on this one. The people that are praying are going to get their due in the afterlife. True, it can't be proven, but isn't having blind faith the point of most religions?

But if a God really doesn't exist, if there really is no other purpose to the random chemical reaction known as life than instinctive survival, who cares? All it does is prove to a certain extent that Social Darwinism is correct and that civilization (for the most part) is a waste. It's not like 60-70 years of praying, hoping, and being good seem all that long compared to an eternity of nothingness.

It sure would make morality seem like a horrible waste of conciousness.

[This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited December 12, 1999).]

Jeff

12-12-1999, 09:58 PM

Will,

Didn't even know that was the original question! But, since you asked it...

That seems to be an age old question by agnostics and atheists: if God cares, why do good people suffer?

You could use the laws of karma - whatever you do bad in this life or any other comes back to you.

You could say that God allows it because of some grand design that we don't fully understand.

I tend to like the Buddhist philosophy embodied in what they call "The Four Noble Truths." It helps to know that Buddhists believe that God is not an entity, but rather a state of conciousness. The Truths are:

1. Life is suffering.
This is something we just can't avoid and yet do everything possible to avoid it.

2. Life is suffering because of attachment.
We spend our whole lives striving for things. We worry over what might happen or regret what has. We are attached to the outcome of everything (this is really important for us sports fans!). Essentially, this attachment to things, people and the like is what causes all suffering.

3. Everyone CAN BE free from this suffering.
Suffering is avoidable. This is important because it is important to understand that, while it exists, it is not the way things have to be.

4. Living correctly and ending attachment can end suffering.
This leads to the Buddhist practice called "The Eight-Fold Path to Enlightenment" that includes things like "right action, right speech, etc." This is the moral and ethical framework for living according to Buddhist tradition.

What I find so comforting about the Four Noble Truths is the fact that we can OWN our misery, our destiny and our suffering. By taking responsibility for what we say and do, what we think and feel in every moment through disciplining our thoughts, we can remove suffering and pain from our lives and the lives of others.

In essesnce, it is this passive action (changing ourselves in an effort to change the world) that ultimately relieves suffering. By doing so, we honor ourselves and the God we worship.

There is a saying Robert Schuler has: If it is to be, it is up to me (ironically, that is the name of Matress Mac's thoroughbred racing horse too!). To me, that is the real challenge. Instead of blaming others or waiting for a God to rescue us, it is our repsonsibility to rescue ourselves.

Easier said than done, but worth the effort.

Will

12-12-1999, 11:05 PM

"If it is to be, it is up to me."

Jeff, that quote is absolutely perfect and completes the circle of this thread. This thread evolved (or was created, take your pick) from a thread in the Rockets forum called "Everything does NOT happen for a reason." I intended that statement to be a contradiction of Barkley's comments at his press conference after the Philadelphia game, at which he suggested that his season-ending injury was a message from God to retire because his career was meant to end in Philadelphia. I was arguing that Barkley's retirement as a result of this injury was not "meant to be," that God does not intervene in our lives that way, and that if we make such decisions (in this case, to retire), we should make them for our own reasons (including ethical reasons derived from our understanding of God's teachings) and take responsibility for them.

Several of you have replied that some things are indeed "meant to be." While I still reject the idea that God intervenes to change the course of history -- which would imply that God is responsible for all the evil He fails to prevent -- there is a way to reconcile fate and free will. That way is to accept that God exists in space-time (the three dimensions of space plus a fourth dimension, time) -- and sees the whole course of history as though the line of time were spread across space in front of him. So God knew Barkley was going to retire after the Philly game -- or, to put it more precisely, from God's perspective, He knows that Barkley "retired" after the Philly game. But from the perspective of us lowly humans who must live our lives in three dimensions, we didn't know "yet" whether Barkley was going to retire. Neither did Barkley. In the 3-D universe, Barkley has free will. In the 4-D universe, history is complete, and Barkley has "already" exercised his will.

If we apply this theory to moral decisions, we get the maxim Jeff quoted: "If it is to be, it is up to me." In other words, "if it is to be" in God's 4-D universe, "it is up to me" in our 3-D universe. Suppose you're at the beach and you see a little girl get swallowed up by a wave. You're the only person close enough to reach her, but the waves are so big that you, too, might drown. Are you going to rescue her? God "knows" what will happen. He knows what "is to be." But the catch is that you, living in 3-D, CANNOT know what "is to be." You don't know the future. All you know is that if she is to survive, you must rescue her. If it is to be, it is up to you.

I think that's how Barkley has played basketball his whole career. When the game is on the line, he figures that if his team "is to win," it's up to him. He plays as though he has free will to change the outcome of the game, instead of losing heart and relaxing his effort because he thinks victory is "not meant to be."

What I object to is any theory that distinguishes between fate and free will, between what is "up to me" and what "is to be." If I choose not to save the drowning girl, can God intervene to make me save her? Can He change what is "up to me" (my decision not to save her) to what "is to be" (her survival)? If He can, then you are left to explain why He has so often NOT intervened, why He has allowed so many children to drown while adults stood by and did nothing.

Yes, I should save her. And from my 3-D perspective, God wants me to save her. But from God's 4-D perspective, He already knows whether or not I saved her. That is what is "fated." That is what "is to be." (This is NOT the same thing as what God wants. God does not want people to slaughter each other -- and yet throughout history, they have. God simply knows, from His 4-D perspective, that this slaughter is what happens.)

But in the moral dilemma I've described, I can't use that as a copout. I can't excuse my failure to rescue the girl by saying it "wasn't to be." Because as a 3-D human who couldn't know what "was to be," all I knew was that it was "up to me."

If you accept this theory, then you must accept an important corollary: You cannot sensibly make claims about what is "meant to be" in the future -- and you certainly can't use such claims to justify your decisions. Barkley can't claim that he is fated to retire. I can't claim that I am fated not to save the little girl. Only afterwards can I talk about what was meant to be. At the moment when I see her go under, I must say to myself two things. First, the right thing to do is to swim out and try to save her. And second, if she is fated to survive, my intervention is the only way it can happen. If it is to be, it is up to me.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 12, 1999).]

Almu

12-13-1999, 12:16 AM

Will,

That is why I just narrowed it down to my conscious. Usually, when I am about to make any type of decision, my conscious usually "speaks" to me. And let me tell you that everytime I listen, I HAVE NEVER MADE A BAD DECISION. When I ignore it, its 50/50 at best. That is why I say, GOD is inside of you. Its not in church. Its not in a bottle. Its not floating around like Superman and saving people. God guides your moral conscious.

If the little girl is drowning, I would jump to save her no matter what. Why? Because I know that inside of me I have the strength and belief that I will save her. That is what my conscious would tell me. I believe in that power that is in all of us. And it doesn't hurt that I was on the All-City Swim Team in high school either. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Live Rocketball. Breathe Rocketball. Die with Rocketball.

Doctor Robert

12-13-1999, 01:51 AM

Will, is that Stephen Hawking? I haven't read his book, but have meant to for quite a while.

Although I know very little about Relativity, that is an explanation that starts to make sense.

Premise of some religions: A soul goes to the afterlife "after" it has passed through the physical world. Based on its life it is rewarded or punished.

Question: If time is perceived completly by the creator then what does the word "after" mean now.

I'm not sure how Albert Einstein fit his belief in god into the Relativity theory. I'll have to read about that, but I don't have time now. No pun intended.

[This message has been edited by Doctor Robert (edited December 13, 1999).]

God

12-13-1999, 05:42 PM

Actually, ya'll are on the right track. I am everywhere and reach all things, even the BBS. But my touch is also most felt on the meta-physical plane--in which you are rarely in tune with. Just for some more background, I am also Texan, and I am a Rockets fan. I also love to tease the Jazz until they can taste it with full flavor, and then rip it away. After all, I do have a sense of humor.

Hey, why is God only a Junior Member, such disrespect. ......and, I make a lot of typos. It is a good thing God has an eraser.

[This message has been edited by God (edited December 13, 1999).]

Jeff

12-13-1999, 06:07 PM

Will,

Here is a joke along the same lines I'm sure you'll appreciate:

A God-fearing man was caught in his home during a bad rainstorm. A few hours into the storm, the flood waters began to rise and a rescue truck showed up to pick him up.

"C'mon!" a rescue worker shouted. "The flood waters are rising and you won't be safe much longer."

The man replied, "I'm not worried. God will save me."

Several more hours later, the flood waters had forced him to abandon his first floor and a rescue boat appeared.

Again, the rescue workers urged him to join them and travel to safety.

Again, he said that God would save him.

Finally, the waters had risen so high that he was driven to his roof. A rescue helicopter appeared from the sky and a worker shouted to him.

"This is your last chance to be rescued!"

The man said, "I'm not worried. God will save me."

Soon after, the man and his house were swallowed up by the surging waters and he drowned.

When he reached heaven, he asked God, "Why didn't you save me? I believed you would! Why would you let this happen?"

God replied, "I did everything I could. I sent you a truck, a boat, a helicopter..."

I wonder if this guy was the basis for Ned Flanders' character!

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

sir scarvajal

12-13-1999, 06:13 PM

Sorry about that, but I really couldn't resist in a Monty Python/Mel Brooks kind of way, meant no disrespect and hope I don't pay for it in eternity.

I do truly find this thread intriguing and thoughtful. My own path taking is not as strait and directed as I perceive with most others (if I were to take a snap shot around in church or the supermarket or wherever), so it welcoming to hear the thoughts and paths discussed here. In my own view I do believe there is a spiritual world that we have difficulty tuning in to because of the senses we more typically rely on to navigate the physical world. Further, I may be biased (being less apt to tune in to spiritual powers) in that I have lived a scientific and logic based life for the most part, so in my mind this part of myself is very much work in progress (though this may be true for everyone else too). My own perspective has become shaped by humility (at least I work for it, I recognize you need humility in your pursuit of humility) in spiritual matters and the acceptance that the grade scheme can't be tapped into by the rational part of my mind I more frequently exercise.

Couple more points I want to address, it often does bug me when someone takes the perspective that god (or the great spirit of the world or whatever term) willed a team to victory or player to injury. I don't have a problem with it in theory, it is just it is often said or acted in such a context that it belittles more important events as well as others who happen to wearing another shirt color on the court or in the stands. For example, if God is busy messing with things on Earth, one of the last things he would get around to would be creating forces to determine whether Allen Houston's game 5 shot falls in or out of the basket after bouncing up and down on the rim a few times.

-S. Scar

RocketScientist

12-15-1999, 02:58 PM

786.

Evil.

I am orange in color. You are orange in color. The color of everyone's skin is orange. I am six feet tall. You are six feet tall. Every human on Earth is six feet tall. Imagine that every feature of every human male is identical. Imagine every feature of every human female is identical.

Who is beautiful?

Who is ugly?

------------------
-Peace to the Believers

rimbaud

12-15-1999, 05:07 PM

RocketScientist:

So your argument is that evil is necessary to act as counterbalance to good so that we may know and apprectiate the difference? My response is twofold:
1. Is it better (in a utilitarian way) for the population to take some good for granted - meaning they might think that not everything is as good as they should, or for the population to truly know evil - murder, rape, genocide, disease, etc. - just so they can have full appreciation? Seems the second is a little dramatic. I have never broken a bone on my body, but nag about minor aches anyway - does that mean I should have both legs broken so I can later appreciate and not be so quick to bemoan my creaks and aches?

2. Disregarding everything I said in 1, the argument of evil as a necessity does not challenge the question of God promoting evil directly and the feasability of that action.

Plato

12-17-1999, 02:00 PM

i'm gone for a few days and this thread grows like wildfire... impressive.

well, let me just respond to a couple things briefly... rimbaud, thanks for the further cites, all those you mentioned are especially fruitful for this conversation (i personally prefer the russell and hume!)

i suppose i will just grab on to the last argument and go rom there...

rimbaud's 1 & 2:

1: to take this further, assuming God is omnipotent, why would he/she/it choose to use evil in a utilitarian "help you understand good more" way? ockam's razor tells us to pck the easiest solution to a problem when presented with several choices. this way of "showing" good seems a little cumbersome. the typical response here would be that we cannot know God's ways, and we cannot apply our rules to God. granted, given this we get back to faith, something that just cannot be argued about (i think). if we cannot know the reasoning behind God's actions, then how do we know the reasons for God's actions? (using evil to stress good) the answer must be faith (albeit, selective faith), and this is where the argument stops and we just agree to disagree.

2. rimbaud is right, there is still the problem of God creating/promoting evil. how can the omnibenficent have anything to do with evil? this again raises the problem of the consistency between omnibeneficence and omnipotence.

anyway, just a few thoughts. sorry about the time out of the loop http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif