If Astros continue like this...

[bchapman101]

when will it be time for concern?

[bchapman101]

How many of you out there are as crazy as I am in thinking that we have serious problems already?

[xishi]

How many of you out there are as crazy as I am in thinking that we have serious problems already?

me. somewhat. i feel like we'll turn it around.....

but the team seems uninspired somehow. ive also been bored watching their 3 game sweeping.

defense has sucked balls. morgan is annoying me again.

come on stros!

[thech0senone]

I totally agree that the team just seems uninspired. I know theres still 159 games left, but the team seems like they are playing with that mindset also. Hopefully after an embarrassing sweep at home to Pirates, the Stros will decide to turn it up a notch. The Cardinals are going to be town, along with the Bagwell ceremony so that may be some extra incentives this weekend.

[rezdawg]

The problem is with Berkman, Lee, Ensberg...our 3, 4, 5 are playing about as bad as you can possibly play. When they turn it around, our offense should put a few more runs a game.

Lidge sucks.

[Raven Lunatic]

If they continue this trend, they will go 0-162 while scoring 163 runs during the last game.

[Zac D]

If they continue this trend, they will go 0-162 while scoring 163 runs during the last game.

Man, the bullpen's really going to suck that day.

[texanskan]

Of course Lee and Berkman will hit but it's not like the Mets came in here and swept us it was the freaking Pirates

[ima_drummer2k]

I know it's a long season, but after that first game, something told me we were going to get swept. Just a lot of negative energy around this team right now. You can just feel it.

Hope they turn it around soon. When do we play the cubs? :D

[texanskan]

I know it's a long season, but after that first game, something told me we were going to get swept. Just a lot of negative energy around this team right now. You can just feel it.

Hope they turn it around soon. When do we play the cubs? :D

there is negative energy because Purpura had a horrible offseason.

I don't want to watch 6 months of crap, please get it together.

I think I speak for most when I say we need the Rockets to win the title to take away the pain that a 70 win season would bring.

[Gene the PIG]

IMO, they can start the turn-around by doing this:

Ensberg-out
Lamb-in

Ensberg effing sucks!


& I'm REALLY worried about Burke holding down that CF job. His bat is nice, but he looks like me trying to play CF.

Willie T makes BOTH of those catches out there last night. The one on the hill & the obvious drop. Burky ain't getting in front of the ball AT ALL.

Could be a very long season. :o

If it means Pence in CF, do it! & Burke back to a platoon with Biggio & Everett. Sucks, but what has to be, has to be.

[Surfguy]

What we need is a tombstone. Declare the Astros to be the walking dead and they will bounce back.

This may be one of those years where we play better on the road than at home.

[Smokey]

I like how Purpura said "I've talked with people and we have a good team."

Which people? His own staff? The ultimate goal is to win the World Series, right? Can the Astros win the World Series with this pitching staff? Pass the weed.

[Buck Turgidson]

Which people? His own staff? The ultimate goal is to win the World Series, right? Can the Astros win the World Series with this pitching staff? Pass the weed.
How often to teams finish the season with the same personnel they start with?

They have options, that's all you can ask.

[The Cat]

I like how Purpura said "I've talked with people and we have a good team."

Which people? His own staff? The ultimate goal is to win the World Series, right? Can the Astros win the World Series with this pitching staff? Pass the weed.

The starting pitching has given up 5 earned runs in about 20 innings. That's not the problem right now.

[NJRocket]

My biggest concern with all this is that Clemens is watching these games and just shaking his head.

[The Cat]

there is negative energy because Purpura had a horrible offseason.

I don't want to watch 6 months of crap, please get it together.

I think I speak for most when I say we need the Rockets to win the title to take away the pain that a 70 win season would bring.

Yeah, you called it... if only the 'Stros had kept your boy Willy and his .111 average with 6 strikeouts in 9 at-bats, or Jason Hirsh and Taylor Buchholz and their 6+ ERAs in spring training. :rolleyes:

There's one clear problem with this team through the first three games, and it's that the big bats aren't producing. Of the three biggest bats, two are playing horribly (Berkman, Lee) and one is hurt (Scott).

Now, if you guys think Berkman will continue to hit .111 with a .361 OPS for the season and Lee will continue to hit .167 with a .333 OPS for the season and that Scott will be out for the season with his injury, then yes, this team is doomed. However, I find that difficult to believe. I think it's more likely that they hit a slump and had a freak injury, and that it's likely to turn around.

If those three hit all series like they usually do, the Astros win this in a sweep. They didn't, and the good guys were swept. Yes, this team has "serious problems" if you think those three are done... if you don't, it's simply the unfortunate luck of baseball that happens sometimes.

[The Cat]

My biggest concern with all this is that Clemens is watching these games and just shaking his head.

I think Clemens knows Berkman and Lee enough to realize that this isn't quite indicative of their normal level of play.

[NJRocket]

Berkman, Lee and Mo arent hitting yet.....that will change...at least 2 of the 3 will imo. We have options if Mo continues to falter in Lamb and Loretta.

We knew it would be a bit of a learning experience in CF with Burke...and it has been...he will figure it out or we will see more of Lane (who is actually hitting) or Pence.

The starters are doing ok so far...Woody had the only hiccup and it was more due to 3 errors than anything else.

Bork and White looked good out of the pen. My guess is that we will see LIdge in a closers spot again this weekend...against the Cards no less.

At least the Cards can hang their hat on the fact that they got swept by a team that many are picking to win their division...if not the NL pennant....its hard to swallow getting swept by a bottom feeder.

Two desperate teams this weekend in search of a spark...could be interesting!

[NJRocket]

I think Clemens knows Berkman and Lee enough to realize that this isn't quite indicative of their normal level of play.


Problem is that I dont see Clemens betting on the come.....non indicative or slump or not, we need to stay within striking distance.

[The Cat]

Problem is that I dont see Clemens betting on the come.....non indicative or slump or not, we need to stay within striking distance.

Absolutely, but I'm saying he's not making any decisions based on three games. If it continues, obviously he won't come to a sub-.500 team, but I don't think he's crossing the Astros off now... he knows it'll turn around.

[NJRocket]

Absolutely, but I'm saying he's not making any decisions based on three games. If it continues, obviously he won't come to a sub-.500 team, but I don't think he's crossing the Astros off now... he knows it'll turn around.


agreed....he saw 15-30 with his own eyes

[Buck Turgidson]

Yeah, you called it... if only the 'Stros had kept your boy Willy and his .111 average with 6 strikeouts in 9 at-bats
The same Willy who's already splitting time with a 42-year old Steve Finley, coming off his worst season 17 years? That Willy Taveras?

[WWR]

http://www.bethyeshurun.org/images/AstrosRIP.jpg

[ima_drummer2k]

Problem is that I dont see Clemens betting on the come.....non indicative or slump or not, we need to stay within striking distance.
The baseball world doesn't revolve around Roger Clemens. I know He likes to think it does.

I don't know, as an Astro fan, the whole idea of everyone on the team "auditioning" for Roger to see if He will grace us all with His presence sometime this season is a little offensive.

I'd rather the team want to win for themselves, not just to please Roger Clemens.

[Zac D]

The baseball world doesn't revolve around Roger Clemens. I know He likes to think it does.

I don't know, as an Astro fan, the whole idea of everyone on the team "auditioning" for Roger to see if he will grace us all with His presence sometime this season is a little offensive.

Word.

Also, a decent baseline answer to the thread starter's question is "when The Cat becomes concerned." That's because he is not exactly a sunshine-and-roses type of fan, and even he hasn't said "season over" yet. Not even in jest. :D

For real, though. Coming into the season, a lot of people thought the offense would be better, the bullpen was good, and the rotation was a question mark. The rotation performed quite well, the offense and much of the bullpen did not; and I think it's more likely for the rotation to keep "overachieving" than the offense and bullpen continuing to blow. Or, more precisely, the adjustment to expectations will have, team-wide, a greater positive effect from the offense and bullpen than negative effect from the starters.

Chin up.

[Nick]

I'm pretty sure they'll salvage the season soon enough... a 3 game sweep by the Pirates is definitely something I'd rather see happening now than later.

BUT... one thing that may concern me is this: The sense of urgency.

The last three years, I felt that there was only one goal... and if they didn't reach it, the season was going to be considered close to a failure by all involved.

This year, I don't really think the team has that mindset. Hell, I don't have that mindset. I think everybody is acknowledging that its wide open, and any team can take this... but if it happens, it happens... if it doesn't, oh well.

Maybe its simply because the only two guys with rings are either no longer here (Pettite), or are nowhere near the team (Clemens). I can't say that the aura of those two didn't have an effect of bringing this team's status up a couple of notches.

But, I was an Astro fan long before those two came, and will continue to be... its just that I hope they find a spark from somebody not Biggio or Roy, both too soft-spoken in the public (and its not going to be Berkman or Lee... their two best players).

In many ways, Baggy was the guy I felt who was always the one who would never be satisfied out of the two (the team misses that)... Biggio's quest for 3,000 has me both happy for him, but concerned at the same time that his overall focus may be too driven on that.

[xishi]

we need some fresh young talent to bring our team alive.........hunter pence it is.

:D

[NJRocket]

The baseball world doesn't revolve around Roger Clemens. I know He likes to think it does.

I .

Be that as it may.....he still makes us better. Granted....Johan Santana, Mariano Rivera and a few others would make us better too.....but Roger is there for the taking and he makes us better.

Aside from being a top 5 starter if he were active...he is a very welcome addition to the Astros clubhouse and has the ability to lead this team.

[sammy]

BUT... one thing that may concern me is this: The sense of urgency.

Its the same issue every season. :rolleyes: Its getting old. We cant just turn it up when we have to. It just seems like the same old team plus Carlos Lee. We need Scott playing well (against lefties too) and can Pence play center-field? :confused:

[Precision340]

How many of you out there are as crazy as I am in thinking that we have serious problems already?

Ask this question in another month or so. It's still very very early in the season... they'll be alright. The beginning of the season is always the toughest. But I have faith in our guys. Don't anyone jump off the bandwagon yet!!

[Groogrux]

Its the same issue every season. :rolleyes: Its getting old. We cant just turn it up when we have to. It just seems like the same old team plus Carlos Lee. We need Scott playing well (against lefties too) and can Pence play center-field? :confused:

No teams plays with a sense of urgency all year.

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

[kaleidosky]

Yeah, you called it... if only the 'Stros had kept your boy Willy and his .111 average with 6 strikeouts in 9 at-bats, or Jason Hirsh and Taylor Buchholz and their 6+ ERAs in spring training. :rolleyes:

There's one clear problem with this team through the first three games, and it's that the big bats aren't producing. Of the three biggest bats, two are playing horribly (Berkman, Lee) and one is hurt (Scott).

Now, if you guys think Berkman will continue to hit .111 with a .361 OPS for the season and Lee will continue to hit .167 with a .333 OPS for the season and that Scott will be out for the season with his injury, then yes, this team is doomed. However, I find that difficult to believe. I think it's more likely that they hit a slump and had a freak injury, and that it's likely to turn around.

If those three hit all series like they usually do, the Astros win this in a sweep. They didn't, and the good guys were swept. Yes, this team has "serious problems" if you think those three are done... if you don't, it's simply the unfortunate luck of baseball that happens sometimes.


I don't think we need to spend time convincing people about this again and again. If they haven't figured it out by now, they'll just jump off the bandwagon and jump back on when things get better again.

[Saint Louis]

Look on the brightside, at least the Astros are tied with the Cardinals.

[Mr. Clutch]

http://www.bethyeshurun.org/images/AstrosRIP.jpg

Too bad Richard Justice keeps telling us this Astros team is a good team this year. You know how he was wrong that year and is probably wrong again.

Purpura mastered the strategy of Buy High this year when he overpaid for Lee and Jennings, in my opinion.

[thech0senone]

If the Astros continue to struggle this year, I can't wait to read Justice's article about how bad the offseason moves were, and how Astros management did an injustice to our fans by doing a poor job in putting a competitive team together.

[The Cat]

Too bad Richard Justice keeps telling us this Astros team is a good team this year. You know how he was wrong that year and is probably wrong again.

Purpura mastered the strategy of Buy High this year when he overpaid for Lee and Jennings, in my opinion.

Yeah, I can't believe he gave up an offensive black hole hitting .111 this year with 6 Ks in 9 at-bats along with two unproven pitching prospects with mediocre stuff for Jason Jennings, a starter who had a better ERA last season than Andy Pettitte. What a horrible, awful trade... the Rockies are so giddy about it that Buchholz is getting shelled out of the bullpen and Willy Taveras is "splitting time" with 74-year-old Steve Finley.

With Lee, free agency is what it is. There's nothing "free" about it. To acquire legit talent, you either have to pay extra in terms of young talent (the Jennings trade) or you have to pay a premium in free agency (Lee). Are there bargain basement deals where you can buy low? Sure - and they're huge risks. If you want sure things (Lee), and you need guys like that to compete, you have to pay the price. No way around it.

[SWTsig]

What we need is a tombstone. Declare the Astros to be the walking dead and they will bounce back.

This may be one of those years where we play better on the road than at home.

that worked so well last year....

[JunkyardDwg]

I'm pretty sure they'll salvage the season soon enough... a 3 game sweep by the Pirates is definitely something I'd rather see happening now than later.

BUT... one thing that may concern me is this: The sense of urgency.

The last three years, I felt that there was only one goal... and if they didn't reach it, the season was going to be considered close to a failure by all involved.

This year, I don't really think the team has that mindset. Hell, I don't have that mindset. I think everybody is acknowledging that its wide open, and any team can take this... but if it happens, it happens... if it doesn't, oh well.

Maybe its simply because the only two guys with rings are either no longer here (Pettite), or are nowhere near the team (Clemens). I can't say that the aura of those two didn't have an effect of bringing this team's status up a couple of notches.

But, I was an Astro fan long before those two came, and will continue to be... its just that I hope they find a spark from somebody not Biggio or Roy, both too soft-spoken in the public (and its not going to be Berkman or Lee... their two best players).

In many ways, Baggy was the guy I felt who was always the one who would never be satisfied out of the two (the team misses that)... Biggio's quest for 3,000 has me both happy for him, but concerned at the same time that his overall focus may be too driven on that.


Totally agree with that; The team had such a "championship" mentality the past few years in large part due to Pettite and Clemens. They're presence infected the clubhouse and the city into truly believing this team could win it all.

I kind of had this feeling after the first game that if they were to lose the second game they could be in serious jeopardy of a bad slide to begin the season. It's not quite time to seriously think that...this team is good and it only seems inevitable that the players who have struggled thus far will turn it around..but it's just that feeling I get. Where's the intensity? The team is now a full season removed from the WS and Pettite and (possibly) Clemens are long gone from the clubhouse; you got to find a spark somewhere.

[Brando2101]

The Astros are on pace to go 0-162

[Mr. Clutch]

Yeah, I can't believe he gave up an offensive black hole hitting .111 this year with 6 Ks in 9 at-bats along with two unproven pitching prospects with mediocre stuff for Jason Jennings, a starter who had a better ERA last season than Andy Pettitte. What a horrible, awful trade... the Rockies are so giddy about it that Buchholz is getting shelled out of the bullpen and Willy Taveras is "splitting time" with 74-year-old Steve Finley..

Do you have to rush to the defense of the Astros every time someone criticizes them? I am not too excited for Jennings because 1) he isn't that great of a pitcher and 2) even if he does turn out to be pretty good he may just be a 1 year rental. Jenning is what he is. I like him, he may be a solid number 2, but nothing spectacular.


With Lee, free agency is what it is. There's nothing "free" about it. To acquire legit talent, you either have to pay extra in terms of young talent (the Jennings trade) or you have to pay a premium in free agency (Lee). Are there bargain basement deals where you can buy low? Sure - and they're huge risks. If you want sure things (Lee), and you need guys like that to compete, you have to pay the price. No way around it.

Wait, now you are saying that we had to "pay extra" in the Jennings trade? The way you descibed Taveras and Buckholz, we completely robbed Colorado.

Free agency is what it is? Really no kidding? Thanks. The point is committing that much money to Carlos Lee may not have been the smartest move. Especially with all the issues this team appears to have in the starting rotation and bullpen. And especially when he really isn't a superstar caliber player like a Berkman or like Bags and Bidge were back in the idea.

Of course it is early, so who knows. But Richard Justice thinks this team will be good, and we know how he is always right.

[msn]

Do you have to rush to the defense of the Astros every time someone criticizes them?
No, just every time somebody posts something arguable or inaccurate. At least, that's why I jump on whining.

But Richard Justice thinks this team will be good, and we know how he is always right.
Don't worry, The Writer of Wrongs will change his opinion soon. And then he'll change it back. And then he'll defend it. And then he'll call everyone else "idiots".

[The Cat]

Do you have to rush to the defense of the Astros every time someone criticizes them? I am not too excited for Jennings because 1) he isn't that great of a pitcher and 2) even if he does turn out to be pretty good he may just be a 1 year rental. Jenning is what he is. I like him, he may be a solid number 2, but nothing spectacular.

When the criticism is illogical, yes. No, he's not spectacular, but the Astros traded two mediocre prospects and a very subpar CF, and for that package you're not going to get anything spectacular. They paid a reasonable price.

Wait, now you are saying that we had to "pay extra" in the Jennings trade? The way you descibed Taveras and Buckholz, we completely robbed Colorado.

No. I'm saying you "pay extra" when compared to developing a pitcher within your own system.

Free agency is what it is? Really no kidding? Thanks. The point is committing that much money to Carlos Lee may not have been the smartest move. Especially with all the issues this team appears to have in the starting rotation and bullpen. And especially when he really isn't a superstar caliber player like a Berkman or like Bags and Bidge were back in the idea.

Of course it is early, so who knows. But Richard Justice thinks this team will be good, and we know how he is always right.

Did you watch the free agent pitching market? The same market where Jason Marquis and his 6+ ERA got 7 million a season and the same market where Ted Lilly made 10+ million? I don't mind that complaint (although I disagree with it). But your initial complaint - that Purpura "bought high" - would've also been said if Purpura went after additional starters. They were overpriced too.

Is Lee a superstar? I'm not sure, but a .300 and 35+ homer player is extremely valuable, and that's what he's likely to be in this park. The kinds of players superior to that usually aren't available via the free agent market.

Also, for all the "issues" the starting rotation supposedly has, they've given up 5 earned runs in almost 20 innings. That's excellent. The problem has been the lack of hitting and injuries to the heart of the order (Berkman, Lee, Scott). If you think that will continue, then yes, there's reason to believe the Astros have problems. If you don't (and I think it's completely illogical to think of Berkman and Lee as .111 and .167 hitters), evidence points to them being fine.

[Mr. Clutch]

When the criticism is illogical, yes. No, he's not spectacular, but the Astros traded two mediocre prospects and a very subpar CF, and for that package you're not going to get anything spectacular. They paid a reasonable price.

Fair enough, but the results of the trade remain to be seen.


No. I'm saying you "pay extra" when compared to developing a pitcher within your own system.

:confused: You don't have to pay anything to develop a pitcher in your own system, you already have him.



Did you watch the free agent pitching market? The same market where Jason Marquis and his 6+ ERA got 7 million a season and the same market where Ted Lilly made 10+ million? I don't mind that complaint (although I disagree with it). But your initial complaint - that Purpura "bought high" - would've also been said if Purpura went after additional starters. They were overpriced too.

Is Lee a superstar? I'm not sure, but a .300 and 35+ homer player is extremely valuable, and that's what he's likely to be in this park. The kinds of players superior to that usually aren't available via the free agent market.

Also, for all the "issues" the starting rotation supposedly has, they've given up 5 earned runs in almost 20 innings. That's excellent. The problem has been the lack of hitting and injuries to the heart of the order (Berkman, Lee, Scott). If you think that will continue, then yes, there's reason to believe the Astros have problems. If you don't (and I think it's completely illogical to think of Berkman and Lee as .111 and .167 hitters), evidence points to them being fine.

Well no I don't expect Berkman and Lee to hit under .200, but by the same token I don't expt our starters to give up only an average of 5 earned runs per 20 innings. Not when we have Wandy as the #4 and an unnamed pitcher as the #5.

[jev5555]

Don't panic yet. they're going to break out the big bats tonight even though wandy gives up 7 runs we'll still win...9-7 astros.

[Mr. Clutch]

^^ I'm ready to see the Puma and El Caballo bust out tonight!