Carr to be traded?

[Blake]

On the flipside, if there are multiple teams that want Carr, they may want to trade for him instead of wanting to compete with other teams for his services.

good point as well. maybe I'm just paranoid about losing him for nothing, which would be a shame...

[msn]

in responding to MM, it certainly wasn't my intention for you to dredge this up again.
For me to "dredge this up again"? Nice. I believe this language is what "dredged it up again": it was irresponsible... to "suggest" something as a means to accomplish your... end game; especially when such suggestions had no foundation. Recognize those words? They're yours: and to what were you referring exactly, if it wasn't the thing you're now accusing me of "dredging up"? Damn, that's smug.

i merely wanted to clarify MY POV at the time - it wasn't my intention to squelch speculation; but to try and cut-off the needless fuel being added to an already raging fire specific to the david carr situation.
That's fair. You finally arrived at that a day and a half later, but not before needlessly accusing others of things they didn't do. And, even though you claim this is your point of view, time and time again since then you've misrepresented that exchange in other posts with sarcastic little quips. Yet, I'm "dredging" it up.

seriously, you both should move on... it was weeks ago...
Practice what you preach. Or, stop telling others what to post.

[Groogrux]

For me to "dredge this up again"? Nice. I believe this language is what "dredged it up again": it was irresponsible... to "suggest" something as a means to accomplish your... end game; especially when such suggestions had no foundation. Recognize those words? They're yours: and to what were you referring exactly, if it wasn't the thing you're now accusing me of "dredging up"? Damn, that's smug.

In this case, I think he's right. MadMax (aka MM) made a comment about it earlier today or late yesterday.

[Ric]

For me to "dredge this up again"? Nice. I believe this language is what "dredged it up again":
yes, msn - over and over again. this is, what? the second time in a week? let it go, man...

[msn]

In this case, I think he's right. MadMax (aka MM) made a comment about it earlier today or late yesterday.
If one doesn't want things "dredged up", one ought to avoid things like:

--bringing it up oneself (misrepresented, no less) in one's own posts on multiple occasions
--attacking someone's character or misrepresenting someone's takes in the first place.

Tell you what, Ric--as I really do for the most part respect your takes on things around here: I'll drop it if you will. I won't even pile on about how your own recent speculations have been spectactularly shot down by recent events. I promise you, however, the next time I see you post about that take and misrepresent it, I'll jump on it again.

yes, msn - over and over again. this is, what? the second time in a week? let it go, man...
Not acknowledging the times you've given it a sharp sarcastic barb in your takes? Predictable. Will you acknowledge that you have?

[msn]

yes, msn - over and over again. this is, what? the second time in a week? let it go, man...
Wait, and I didn't even bring it up--you did!! Holy crap, Ric! Look at the order of the posts--yours came before mine.

Honestly--are you being purposefully antagonistic? I brought it up once.

Now, if my joking around about the picture at the website came across mean-spirited, just tell me. I meant it as good-natured ribbing.

[Groogrux]

Wait, and I didn't even bring it up--you did!! Holy crap, Ric! Look at the order of the posts--yours came before mine.

Honestly--are you being purposefully antagonistic? I brought it up once.

Now, if my joking around about the picture at the website came across mean-spirited, just tell me. I meant it as good-natured ribbing.

He said "in responding to MM". That's MadMax, not you.

[Ric]

, even though you claim this is your point of view, time and time again since then you've misrepresented that exchange in other posts with sarcastic little quips. Yet, I'm "dredging" it up.
and MM dredged this up; not me. so, twice in a week, once by you; once by MM. but, sure, i'll move on...

Wow, look who's, to borrow a phrase, "making s*** up" now.

I guess if you run a football website, it's OK to "make s*** up."

Really, that's irresponsible, Ric. You are not in their heads and have no idea what they are thinking. You're projecting your view of things onto the mentalities of the Texans' upper management. How do you know they share your opinion?

don't forget the, "it's irresponsible to suggest the texans lost faith in him" part. that was a fan favorite.
exactly one post later:
more irresponsible speculation:
and that doesn't cite the numerous other little digs you guys have been taking at a now long-dead horse of a topic over the past several weeks...

[Ric]

Now, if my joking around about the picture at the website came across mean-spirited, just tell me. I meant it as good-natured ribbing.
huh? who do you think did the picture?

[msn]

and that doesn't cite the numerous other little digs you guys have been taking at a now long-dead horse of a topic over the past several weeks...
You're quoting MM but saying I did it. Nice. How about the numerous little digs you're been taking as well? Because you have. Always pointing fingers, but why not shoulder some responsibility?

I've already said "I'll let it go if you will, but bring it up again, and it's on." But I shouldn't have; I should have just shut up.

It's just hard to see someone whipping others around about some glorified "standard" and then not adhering to it himself.

[msn]

huh? who do you think did the picture?
How is the picture related?

Wait a minute...

The picture was a dig solely a dig at your theory that the Texans were never going to move David Carr. It was an attempt at good-natured ribbing solely concerning that theory and how flat wrong it was, and nothing further.

But, given our exchange the other day, I can see how you connected them. Whether or not you believe me, that was the furthest thing from my mind.

At least now I know where you're coming from. Please accept my apologies for appearing to pile on--it was only meant to be good-natured ribbing.

[Ric]

You're quoting MM but saying I did it. Nice.
yes; i was responding to him bringing it up; my intention wan't for you to jump in and once again stir this up with a now two-month old little grudge, or whatever you want to call it.

so much for that...

How about the numerous little digs you're been taking as well?
such as...?

I should have just shut up.
yes, you should have... a week ago, before your little "i've been waiting two months for this moment!" post cited above.

It's just hard to see someone whipping others around about some glorified "standard" and then not adhering to it himself.
once more: do you realize that discussion is now two months old? yeah, started january 25.

and yes, msn - i was challenging a poster (you) that i respected to do more than swim in the pool of LCD. if i thought you were a typical slack-jaw, richard justice reading poster of no concern or intellect, i never would have called you out on what i thought was needless speculation that added uncessary fuel to an already raging fire.

How is the picture related?

Wait a minute...

The picture was a dig solely a dig at your theory that the Texans were never going to move David Carr. It was an attempt at good-natured ribbing solely concerning that theory and how flat wrong it was, and nothing further.

But, given our exchange the other day, I can see how you connected them. Whether or not you believe me, that was the furthest thing from my mind.

At least now I know where you're coming from. Please accept my apologies for appearing to pile on--it was only meant to be good-natured ribbing.
i must have missed a post; i have NO IDEA what you're talking about. what dig?

[Major]

good point. but would you not agree that now teams can just sit back and wait knowing that we will have to cut him due to his salary? Plus, if they don't trade for him, they don't have to pay all that contract money. Before we signed Schaub, we had the leverage of saying that we will just keep him...not now.


Also on the flipside, if we trade Carr before getting Schaub, then we have less leverage trading with Atlanta because they know we need someone.

[Blake]

Also on the flipside, if we trade Carr before getting Schaub, then we have less leverage trading with Atlanta because they know we need someone.

That is true. But do you think that Atlanta didn't know we were looking for someone? But you do make a good point, it could've driven up their asking price even more (which was pretty steep already, but I like the gamble we took)

[msn]

yes, you should have...
Thanks for taking the high road.

[MadMax]

looking at these posts, it's clear i've started something. i'd edit it out to delete it..but the damage is done. sorry if i pissed anyone off.

[ima_drummer2k]

looking at these posts, it's clear i've started something. i'd edit it out to delete it..but the damage is done. sorry if i pissed anyone off.
You really pissed me off. Frankly, I'm not sure if this relationship can move forward or not.

You crossed the line.

[MadMax]

You really pissed me off. Frankly, I'm not sure if this relationship can move forward or not.

You crossed the line.

you already hated me.

[ima_drummer2k]

you already hated me.
http://www.4aces.net/z-smart.jpg

[MadMax]

http://www.4aces.net/z-smart.jpg


that guy is totally me. :(

[Ric]

Thanks for taking the high road.
i love this. so twice, in the span of six days, two different posters take random, unprovoked shots at me for a (nearly) 60-day old thread... and then i get admonished for not taking the high road... after being admonished for dredging it up in the first place...

[KingCheetah]

i love this. so twice, in the span of six days, two different posters take random, unprovoked shots at me for a (nearly) 60-day old thread...

Your opinion two months ago doesn't count anymore?

[Blake]

So anyway...I hope we get something decent for Carr...and it will be interesting to see if he can ditch the shell shock with a new team

[redefined]

Looks like Dolphins might be interested.

I'll take something over nothing

[Jared Novak]

Looks like Dolphins might be interested.

I'll take something over nothing

The more teams interested the better, realistically I think the most the Texans can get is a 4th rounder but if teams start bidding maybe it can jump to a 3rd.

[SwoLy-D]

Look back at my posts. THE ANSWER WAS NO. You can close this thread now. :cool:

[hatemavs4life]

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/images/GFX_header.gif
Absolutely hilarious!!! I guess he needs to find his photographer or upgrade his photobucket subscription. LOL!

[Enron]

Look back at my posts. THE ANSWER WAS NO. You can close this thread now. :cool:

You also said he would be our starting QB this year :confused:

[MadMax]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4659070.html

Carr's tale: Signed, sacked and shipped off
QB's fall from grace took him through a dreadful 2-18 stretch with Texans


By DALE ROBERTSON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

He would become the face of the NFL's newest franchise, and what a face he had. Tall, dark and handsome only began to describe the Texans' first starting quarterback — a young man with the squarest of jaws, the crewest of cuts and, not insignificantly, the cleanest of reputations.

On appearance, David Carr figured to be equally comfortable under center or on the cover of GQ. Dressed in a Texans uniform or one of those $2,500 Zegna suits the famed designer would foist upon him, no quarterback came into the NFL more perfectly sculpted for the highest-profile job in American sports.

And he seemed a perfect fit for the Texans in another way. They weren't going to be the Oakland Raiders. The church-going Carr, married to his college sweetheart and the father of two infant children, was "a good kid," projecting exactly the straight-laced, family-values image owner Bob McNair wanted for his team — hard-hitting on the field, clean-living off it.

The only tattoo Carr's buffed torso sported was the wash-off kind. It read "Can't Miss," and it was willed onto his skin by McNair, general manager Charley Casserly and coach Dom Capers. The Texans' original management team was a troika of true believers. They all thought their No. 1 pick in the 2002 draft was the right choice to lead the team from infancy to respectability.

But five years later, only McNair remains — an owner can't fire himself — and Carr also is gone, his mission here unaccomplished. The Texans won two more games in 2006 than they had in 2002 and never sniffed a playoff spot during his half-decade tenure that included one particularly dreadful 2-18 patch.

"When Carr was drafted, I didn't necessarily think he'd be a franchise quarterback, but I thought he'd become a decent starter and stay there a long time," Oilers Hall of Famer Warren Moon said Saturday. "I was a little surprised when I heard it all come down."


Here comes Schaub
Inevitably, a page was turned and a chapter closed. Unable to find another team willing to part with anything of value for Carr, the Texans cut their losses by cutting him Friday, having handed the reins to the largely untested Matt Schaub, a former third-round pick in Atlanta.

"To tell you the truth," said another former Oiler, Dan Pastorini, the only quarterback in Houston history to lead teams to the brink of the Super Bowl, which he did in 1978 and 1979. "I'm surprised it took them as long as it did. I was really pulling for Carr, but it's a sad reality of the game. He's a great kid, but you have to deliver in the NFL.

"A lot of what happened to him was his fault. He struggled with his mechanics and not picking things up. He has that sidearm delivery, and he had more balls batted down than any quarterback I've seen."

It was Casserly, the Texans' personnel expert, who played the point in selling the Fresno State phenom as possibly another John Elway, Peyton Manning or Troy Aikman, fellow former No. 1 picks who have arrived at, or are headed to, the Hall of Fame. But, unless Carr dramatically re-invents himself elsewhere — ironically, those unsavory, misfit Raiders are among those most intrigued by him as an unfettered free agent — he's pledging a different kind of fraternity.

Its members include the likes of Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith and Jeff George, monumental failures each because of how their stratospheric draft-day expectations were paired with subsequent desultory results.

Why did things go so terribly wrong for Carr? It's possible the answer is simple. The "good kid" who was supposed to have had it all might have lacked the most essential things — the sufficient talent and an all-consuming passion to succeed in the NFL.

From the moment the Texans ordained him as their cornerstone, there was clucking about his three-quarter-arm throwing motion (Vikings coach Brad Childress was harping about it as recently as last week) and other mechanical flaws. Then, as the seasons passed, questions arose about his leadership skills, maturity and dedication.

That he appeared to lean more on his family, particularly his doting, omnipresent father, than his brothers-in-arms perhaps should have raised more red flags than it did.

"Leadership is the most important thing in the world," Pastorini said. "The quarterback has to go out of his way to build camaraderie with his teammates. He has to make an effort, to sacrifice, to find out what they want and what they need. The quarterback has to spend time with them after practice in the regular season and after practice in training camp. He's got to know that when he steps into the huddle there are 11 minds thinking the same thing."

Although Carr's former teammates have been hesitant to criticize him publicly for lacking a take-charge mentality, it is widely known he didn't reach out to them as much, or as often, as he should have. He never, for example, forged the kind of bond Pastorini shared with crusty center Carl Mauck.

Further, those who observed Carr in social settings were occasionally surprised by his unworldly behavior. After following Carr for a few holes at a celebrity golf tournament, a prominent local doctor who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject said: "He acted like a teenager. It was hard for me to picture him in a huddle, trying to lead an NFL team."

But it's also possible that a succession of injuries to critical supporting-cast members, myriad strategic gaffes and just plain rotten luck doomed him.


Weak link on the left side
First, there was Tony Boselli, who was supposed to have had Carr's back from the get-go at left tackle, the most important and highly paid position in the offensive line. Yet, beset by chronic shoulder problems, the Jacksonville All-Pro never played a down for the Texans and Carr's introductory year in the NFL came to constitute the most cruel and unusual of punishments. His 76 sacks set a league record and left him with psychological scars that surely affect his decision-making.

"He's been hit so much," said Pastorini, who knows a good bit about the subject because he was similarly tortured at the outset of his career, "I think he's damaged goods."

Still, Carr, 27, toughed it out that season and the four that followed. No one questioned his pain threshold. He missed only four games despite being dumped an astonishing 249 times. But he proved to be consistent only in his stoic fortitude. His game-to-game football performance was erratic and a graph of his "progress" became a succession of parabolas, not the upward-trending straight line you hope to see.

"I've got some sympathy for the fact that he had to begin his career with an expansion franchise," said Oliver Luck, once Moon's backup with the Oilers. "It's tough to start out as the top draft choice for an expansion team. He wasn't surrounded by great talent, and I think the Texans would admit that. But, quite honestly, I don't have much sympathy for David because he didn't show what a first-round pick needs to show.

"If you see signs of a guy getting better year to year that's one thing. But he didn't. In some games, yes, he looked like a legitimate NFL quarterback. But he didn't do it in enough games. Most quarterbacks find certain things — special plays, a particular receiver — to fall back on when they need to. David never really established any of that."

Luck, the president of the Major League Soccer champion Dynamo, suggested Carr's college statistics and, hence, reputation could have been skewed by the caliber of the competition he faced at Fresno State.

"It's a hard thing to do as a scout, to decide if a quarterback, coming from a smaller school, has what it takes to move up to play in the NFL," Luck said. "It's the most difficult position to evaluate because so much more than physical skills are involved. So much of it is mental. It's also about how much time a guy is willing to invest, how much homework he'll do. Is he willing to watch film all night long? Does he have the leadership skills an NFL quarterback needs?

"At the end of the day, David just didn't show enough in all the areas for Gary (Kubiak) to have justified hitching his wagon to him."

Kubiak, who took over for Capers last offseason, is the mystery component in the Carr saga. McNair, Casserly and Capers had a vested interest in giving Carr every opportunity to establish himself. But, afforded the opportunity to give Carr a thumbs-down a year ago when the likes of Vince Young, Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler were options, Kubiak chose the status quo.


Move was overdue, Pastorini says
"Man," Pastorini said, "to think we could have had one of them ... But I hope the Texans have turned the corner. I want to see them win. What (the Oilers) experienced in 1978 and 1979 was worth all the injuries, pain and losses I had. I wouldn't trade those two seasons for anything.

"This (Carr's release) should have happened a long time ago. When (Sage) Rosenfels got to play, he showed a lot of promise. And I like Schaub's mechanics a lot better than I liked Carr's. But he's got to prove himself."

Something the man Schaub supplants never was able to do.

"Carr got sacked so much and (the Texans) committed so many blunders that he just didn't get any better," Moon said. "Watching him last season you could tell he's lost a lot of confidence. He needs a change of scenery. I think a new environment will do him good."

[updawg]

what an interesting article.