[ESPN] David Carr, right man to lead franchise

[Khal80]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2640592


The Texans don't play the New Orleans Saints this season, so Houston fans won't go into total running back envy at the sight of Reggie Bush.

Instead, they look to Sunday's game against the Titans when the Texans face Vince Young. Houston fans still wish they had the Houston native at quarterback, and David Carr, the Texans' current quarterback, understands that. Young grew to legendary proportions as a native son of Houston during his championship days at Texas.

Plus, Young doesn't make it any easier by coming back to the city to make appearances during the bye week. His trips to Houston are innocent. It's home and he knows he's always welcome. He turns down more invitations than he can fulfill.

Still, the best decision the Texans made was keeping David Carr as quarterback. I still believe the team would have been better served to use the first pick in the 2006 draft on Reggie Bush. The reason that fell apart was pure emotion. Bush held to a high contract demand, and Texans owner Bob McNair started to feel uncomfortable hearing stories of Bush and his family involvement with condos and gifts while at USC.

So the Texans made an emotional decision and signed defensive end Mario Williams. It can be said Bush negotiated his way out of the first pick. It could also be said the Texans let too much emotion influence their decision on the eve of the draft. Regardless, they didn't use emotions when they decided to extend Carr's contract four years and keep him as the franchise quarterback.


David Carr is completing over 70 percent of his passes this season and has 9 TDs to just 4 INTs.

Carr is quietly having a great season. He is completing 70.3 percent of his passes, best in the NFL. His quarterback rating is 97.9, fourth best in the league. He has the combination of mobility and arm strength that makes scouts drool. Though it's taken five years and 65 starts, Carr is starting to live up to his potential, even though the team is still trying to catch up at 2-4.

Where Sunday's Titans-Texans game is so fascinating is that Young is in the first year of turning around a team that's down. The plan wasn't to play Young in this season, but circumstances led to his starting. Tennessee wasn't going to go anywhere with Kerry Collins at QB. The opening schedule was too tough for coach Jeff Fisher's young roster, and the organization knew fans weren't going to be patient. More importantly, the owner wasn't going to be patient.

Titans owner Bud Adams is one of the nation's biggest Texas fans, thus making him one of Young's biggest supporters. It made life under Adams a little easier for him to see Young behind center, and, as it turned out, the Titans were competitive before the bye in games against the Colts and Redskins.

The AFC South is a division filled with quarterback envy. Titans fans eventually let go of their lust for Peyton Manning, thanks to the great Titans career of Steve McNair. Manning could still run for governor in Tennessee and probably win thanks to his personality and his success with the Volunteers. But the Titans developed into a regular playoff contender and one-time Super Bowl participant with McNair at the helm.

Now, the Texans have to grow and start winning with Carr. It appears he finally is heading in the right direction with Gary Kubiak as head coach.

Carr's story is so typical of others who never played with the right supporting cast. His statistics are a testament to his talent under the circumstances. He's a career 59 percent passer, but he's been completing better than 60 percent of his passes for the past three years. He has 57 touchdown passes and 57 interceptions. For those numbers to be even despite an 18-47 record is remarkable.

The stat that has held him back is sacks. He's been sacked 224 times in 65 games. The Texans haven't built a solid offensive line in front of him, so he's been running for his life for years. In his second year, the offense was structured for him to get rid of the ball quickly. That might have been the silliest system he operated. Instead of being a quarterback, he had to be a dump-off specialist.

That 2003 strategy dropped his sack numbers to 15, but he completed only 56.6 percent of his passes. He was rushing things too much. The ball came out before he could even figure out the right thing to do.

Now, Carr is headed in the right direction, thanks to Kubiak. Coming from the Mike Shanahan school of coaching, Kubiak knows the value of protection and running. In that regard, he's 1-for-2, but the running part of it should get better in time.

"Gary Kubiak has helped out a lot," Carr said. "He's taught me that I don't have to force things. He's taught me it's not up to me to win or lose games. In the past, I felt I had to do so much."

Kubiak learned from Shanahan to build an offense that takes pressure off quarterbacks. The running game is important. Shanahan, though a West Coast offense coach, understands the value of a zone-blocking running scheme. It takes time, though. You have to find the right offensive linemen because the scheme is simple, but it requires timing. After a while, as Shanahan found out, you can take first-round backs or sixth-round backs or undrafted backs and make them stars as long as they make one cut at the line of scrimmage and run.

In the short term, having Bush would have helped, but if Kubiak can copy the Shanahan plan, he should have the running game going in 2007 or 2008, once the line comes together. This year, he's trying out backs such as Wali Lundy and Ron Dayne.

Carr was asked to carry the Texans, and that's where he estranged his relationship with the fans. Fortunately, he's a good guy. Players like him because of his personality and toughness. The Lions lost fewer games under Joey Harrington, but they lost their respect for him.

The Texans have something special developing with Carr. First, Andre Johnson is one of the best receivers in the league. He is aided by the acquisition of Eric Moulds, who takes pressure off him on the other side.

"Eric's meant a lot to the offense," Carr said. "If everyone is looking at Andre and me, then Eric can take off and make a big play. Plus, he brings leadership to the huddle. He just caught his 700th pass. Andre has my confidence. In the past, he's shown flashes. Now, he's doing it day-to-day on a consistent basis."

Only victories will enable fans to completely buy into Carr, and that's a shame. The mistake would have been discarding Carr and going with another quarterback. Young should be great with the Titans. But it's going to take time for him, too.

As we've seen with Carr and other quarterbacks, it could take three to five years to find the right combinations of receivers, offensive linemen and backs to get the offense going. That's why, in many ways, it's an important game Sunday for Carr.

Carr needs to beat the Titans to show he and the Texans are ahead of them, to give fans some confidence the Texans are going in the right direction. Before long, Young and the Titans will start to catch up.

"I can understand the fans in Houston wanting Young with Vince being from Houston," Carr said. "I'm sure if there were an NFL team in Fresno or Bakersfield, California, I would be the popular choice going back home. It's going to be fine."

Carr's quarterback rating and completion percentage show that the Texans have the right guy.



Finally getting some love, espn.com nfl front page!!

[Pocket Rockets]

There are 365 days a year, i guess one can be about Carr.

its evident of your man love for carr, khal

[Uprising]

Thanks for posting this. Nice read. :)

[ROXRAN]

Definitely, a good read...Improvement in the secondary is sorely needed. Carr is good enough as stated before.

[Khal80]

There are 365 days a year, i guess one can be about Carr.

its evident of your man love for carr, khal


didnt you already state your opinion in the other thread professing your hate for carr?

you didnt have to read this thread, the topic clearly states it was about carr, unless you plan on posting in every thread about carr and bashing him :rolleyes:

[Shroopy2]

Usually the credit Carr gets are on a particular quality like his toughness, potential, being classy, etc. Nice to see him getting credit for his actual play on the field.

(Again), those questioning Carr's extension gotta consider the team outlook last offseason. After the team improved 3 straight years (which some credit was given to Carr for) the bottom collapsed. It was widely considered poor coaching, bad drafting/free agents/general management finally catching up. And atrocious line play.

Also he has gonna get signed back no matter what. Couldn't just let him walk away for nothing. Then, would Matt Leinart or Vince Young been any better under the same circumstances? In fact, look at Arizona as an example of Texans-lite. Then who, Drew Brees wanting a fat contract coming off an injury? Trade for Daunte Culpepper coming off an injury? Jon Kitna? And face it, Carr was a lower risk more affordable option than what was out there. After they extended him it depended on who the new coach was. And after Kubiak, who knows a thing about QB'ing, came in he's the one that gave him a vote of confidence. It was at least worth another look. They can always deal him.

All that goes out the window though if he doesn't play good against the Titans :o Still encouraging he's playing well though

[Pocket Rockets]

didnt you already state your opinion in the other thread professing your hate for carr?

you didnt have to read this thread, the topic clearly states it was about carr, unless you plan on posting in every thread about carr and bashing him :rolleyes:

ill take the latter, my friend

just wanted to be the first one to respond to your threads, since they are all about D.Carr

[Uprising]

ill take the latter, my friend

just wanted to be the first one to respond to your threads, since they are all about D.Carr

Well, Carr does happen to be a HOUSTON pro sports athlete. So whats wrong with him talking about a Houston Texans in the TEXANS forums?!

Seriously, do you get all mad when people start threads about Yao...or TMAC and mention their man love for those players everytime someone creates one of those threads?

[SwoLy-D]

One of the reasons I admire Carr is for taking so many hits, yet he still plays out there like he's NEVER been hit. I will never bad-mouth David even when he throws an interception... I'll be the last one to say: "Oh, he su..." (you know?). Thank you for this article.

Good comparison to Young about the Tennesee and Manning thing. I think Young has talent, but it will take a couple of years to show it.

[Kam]

One of the reasons I admire Carr is for taking so many hits, yet he still plays out there like he's NEVER been hit. I will never bad-mouth David even when he throws an interception... I'll be the last one to say: "Oh, he su..." (you know?). Thank you for this article.

Good comparison to Young about the Tennesee and Manning thing. I think Young has talent, but it will take a couple of years to show it.

what if carr makes a bone head play.

you know, like throw it to a guy not wearing the same jersey as him.

[rhino17]

One of the reasons I admire Carr is for taking so many hits, yet he still plays out there like he's NEVER been hit. I will never bad-mouth David even when he throws an interception... I'll be the last one to say: "Oh, he su..." (you know?). Thank you for this article.

I dont get that same impression of him. This year he seems a little more poised but, in years passed, he has definetly played like he assumed he would be hit at any moment.

[rezdawg]

in years passed, he has definetly played like he assumed he would be hit at any moment.

Thats probably because he was getting hit at any moment...can you blame the guy?

[SwoLy-D]

what if carr makes a bone head play.

you know, like throw it to a guy not wearing the same jersey as him.He hasn't made BONEHEAD plays all year... maybe throw it off a receiver... or into triple coverage... but like a bone head play...? Nope. Not this year, Kamster.

[hatemavs4life]

Look with exception of the Pokes game, David has played well, in fact, basically better than every other one of his peers except for the usual (Manning and McNabb). That's pretty phat territory for a washout, loser! :rolleyes:

Clearly Mr Dave is drinking heavily the Titans koolaid and has been deluded into believing that VY is really still with UT (the defenses are faster in the NFL) and is going to go gonzo on the Texans. Not this year, dude!

The flashes are a mere tease. He is STILL a rookie! Remember that. VY will get better, how much better will be determined on a number of independent factors.

Again, the only way the Titans win this one is if T-Henry is unstoppable and helps dominate the time of possession for the Titans.

[Pocket Rockets]

Again, the only way the Titans win this one is if T-Henry is unstoppable and helps dominate the time of possession for the Titans.

or D. Carr fumbles after he gets sacked not once but twice

[desihooper]

And he's pulled! :mad:

[kevwun]

The right man for the franchise just got benched.

[Shroopy2]

All that goes out the window though if he doesn't play good against the Titans :o Still encouraging he's playing well though

Yep, my own quote... :rolleyes:

[SwoLy-D]

He got pulled because Gary Kubiak got upset he wasn't throwing it at the correct receiver. Kubiak is correct... pull David out so he can learn some more. Still, Carr has that potential.

[Rocket River]

He got pulled because Gary Kubiak got upset he wasn't throwing it at the correct receiver. Kubiak is correct... pull David out so he can learn some more. Still, Carr has that potential.


David has been TOO COMFORTABLE

He always known he would play every down . . he has not been challenged
He has not be 'PUSHED' by and anxious BackUp

UNTIL NOW!!

Rocket River

[HillBoy]

He got pulled because Gary Kubiak got upset he wasn't throwing it at the correct receiver. Kubiak is correct... pull David out so he can learn some more. Still, Carr has that potential.
Carr is running out of time. I agree with guys like Rocket River & DaDakota that this is a make or break year for Carr and he could very well be gone next year.

[Rocket River]

Carr is running out of time. I agree with guys like Rocket River & DaDakota that this is a make or break year for Carr and he could very well be gone next year.


My friend pointed out the irony
of Carr getting bench the 1st game against VY
also
To me
He has his worse game .. while have the best Rushing game of the year
[After so many folx blamed it on the poor running game]

Rocket River

[Pocket Rockets]

Carr is running out of time. I agree with guys like Rocket River & DaDakota that this is a make or break year for Carr and he could very well be gone next year.

the make or break year was last year for me....i quit making excuses for carr this season....

He got pulled because Gary Kubiak got upset he wasn't throwing it at the correct receiver. Kubiak is correct... pull David out so he can learn some more. Still, Carr has that potential.

he does but just not with this team

[SwoLy-D]

he does but just not with this teamSo you agree with me? Get him a better offensive line, maybe?

[pgabriel]

as someone on the radio said, it was telling how carr was all by himself on the sideline after being benched. I want say he was sulking, but it looked like he could have reacted better.

[Pocket Rockets]

So you agree with me? Get him a better offensive line, maybe?
i partially agree with you, the fact that he has potential....

i don't think a better offensive line will help him to reach that potential..

i do think he needs another frest start with a different team to realize his full potential

[rhino17]

Still, Carr has that potential.

David has now been in the league five years. He's either got it or he don't.


Carr DONT

[Pocket Rockets]

the curse of the espn front page strikes again!

[SwoLy-D]

DUDES. New coaching staff. New system. Barely 7th game of the season. Sage comes in fresh. Of course he's going to do well. All of those quarterbacks do. I don't want to believe this is a BRADY vs. BLEDSOE thing, though... :(

If David had waaaayyy (i mean, way) many more INTs than TDs, I could see ya'll with a point here. Such is not the case. Sage needed to come in to fill in for a really bad day for CARR. David was banged up. Sage was not. Fresh legs, fresh mind, no controversy for him.

[Pocket Rockets]

DUDES. New coaching staff. New system. Barely 7th game of the season. Sage comes in fresh. Of course he's going to do well. All of those quarterbacks do. I don't want to believe this is a BRADY vs. BLEDSOE thing, though... :(

If David had waaaayyy (i mean, way) many more INTs than TDs, I could see ya'll with a point here. Such is not the case. Sage needed to come in to fill in for a really bad day for CARR. David was banged up. Sage was not. Fresh legs, fresh mind, no controversy for him.

exactly...thats why carr needs a new team

[macalu]

DUDES. New coaching staff. New system. Barely 7th game of the season. Sage comes in fresh. Of course he's going to do well. All of those quarterbacks do. I don't want to believe this is a BRADY vs. BLEDSOE thing, though... :(

If David had waaaayyy (i mean, way) many more INTs than TDs, I could see ya'll with a point here. Such is not the case. Sage needed to come in to fill in for a really bad day for CARR. David was banged up. Sage was not. Fresh legs, fresh mind, no controversy for him.
Sage isn't supposed to upstage Carr like he did today.

i hate to say this, but i'm off the Carr bandwagon. i already said why in the Carr is done thread so, ughh, i'm so tired of this sh!t.

[Khal80]

god, i stand up for this guy every weekend

he really messed up today,this should have been a W

Last chance against the Giants, even if i think he has all the talent in the world, if sage is best for the team, let him play

as a strong DC supporter, im giving him one more chance

[rrj_gamz]

He got pulled because Gary Kubiak got upset he wasn't throwing it at the correct receiver. Kubiak is correct... pull David out so he can learn some more. Still, Carr has that potential.

Potential...Hell, we've been saying that since we drafted him...As Jerry G used to say..."Not For Long"...as in Carr won't last the rest of the season with the way he's been playing...Sage will give him a run for his money, all that money...

[gucci888]

Carr has thrown for 0 TDs and 4 Ints in games after a win. The cowboys have a good defense but there's no excuse against the Titans. His pass into quadruple coverage tells me a lot of thing.

This is Carr's 5th year, he's had excuse after excuse, many have been legit, but I'm tired of this crap. I don't think Carr can win big with this team, that's why I wanted VY...but the Texans need to seriously start thinking about replacing him.

[Pocket Rockets]

god, i stand up for this guy every weekend

he really messed up today,this should have been a W

Last chance against the Giants, even if i think he has all the talent in the world, if sage is best for the team, let him play

as a strong DC supporter, im giving him one more chance


ha, this sounds like a girlfriend thats cheated on you numerous times yet you still take her back!

Let Sage start!
(my slogan of the week!)

[weslinder]

I didn't watch the pre-season, so I didn't understand the love for Rosenfels. Now I do. He's good at everything that Carr is bad at. He's got great pocket presence, and is really good at buying time for more to develop. But what the supporters are ignoring is that what Carr does really well (pass accurately), Sage doesn't do well. Many of his completions were just barely within the reach of his receivers. His 18/25 could have easily turned into a 10/25 with either a few inches on his passes or an off-day for Johnson or Moulds. I'm not sure which is better, but it's definitely not clear-cut.

[Rocket River]

I didn't watch the pre-season, so I didn't understand the love for Rosenfels. Now I do. He's good at everything that Carr is bad at. He's got great pocket presence, and is really good at buying time for more to develop. But what the supporters are ignoring is that what Carr does really well (pass accurately), Sage doesn't do well. Many of his completions were just barely within the reach of his receivers. His 18/25 could have easily turned into a 10/25 with either a few inches on his passes or an off-day for Johnson or Moulds. I'm not sure which is better, but it's definitely not clear-cut.

inches????
you can say that about *any* QB

Rocket River

[Luckyazn]

How many time do I have to said it .....


DAVID CARR IS OVERRATED/OVERPAID !!! for $8mil?? and the backup comes in and does a BETTER JOB THAN HIM!


Come on people it has been 5yrs for this guy! Stop making excuses..... today should show that SOMEONE ELSE and play QB and lead this team without paying them $8mils !!!




DAVID CARR WILL NOT BE BACK AFTER THIS EXTENTION!! so let him gooo.....

[sammy]

as someone on the radio said, it was telling how carr was all by himself on the sideline after being benched. I want say he was sulking, but it looked like he could have reacted better.

It seemed like he reacted better than Bledsoe

[rhester]

VY will be in the playoffs before Carr QB's the Texans in a playoff game.

So sit back enjoy your Carr and be patient, it will take Kubiak all season to realize Carr isn't the answer (although he is starting to see it). Then he will bring in a QB to compete with Carr next season. Then after next season he will give up on Carr and we will be back to square one as an expansion franchise.

Have a long wait... you patient Texan fans.

I am a very impatient Texan fan because I wanted us to draft the QB from UT.

[Mr. Clutch]

VY will be in the playoffs before Carr QB's the Texans in a playoff game.

So sit back enjoy your Carr and be patient, it will take Kubiak all season to realize Carr isn't the answer (although he is starting to see it). Then he will bring in a QB to compete with Carr next season. Then after next season he will give up on Carr and we will be back to square one as an expansion franchise.

Have a long wait... you patient Texan fans.

I am a very impatient Texan fan because I wanted us to draft the QB from UT.

Carr was terrible but I wouldn't want VY to replace him. 7 for 15 for 87 yards? VY is passing about as well as Bush is running.

[weslinder]

inches????
you can say that about *any* QB

Rocket RiverNot David Carr. My point was that Carr is typically dead accurate. His passes are right in the receiver's hands more often than not. Rosenfels was pretty erratic, but most of his passes were close enough for really good receivers (which the Texans have) to go get. He was far more accurate than Young yesterday, but not nearly as accurate as David Carr is typically.

[MadMax]

Carr was terrible but I wouldn't want VY to replace him. 7 for 15 for 87 yards? VY is passing about as well as Bush is running.

know what? i'll take those stats sans the carr fumbles and interceptions....particularly when we're talking about a QB only starting his 4th or 5th game.

our QB was starting in his 67th game. he was totally awesome.

[MadMax]

Not David Carr. My point was that Carr is typically dead accurate. His passes are right in the receiver's hands more often than not. Rosenfels was pretty erratic, but most of his passes were close enough for really good receivers (which the Texans have) to go get. He was far more accurate than Young yesterday, but not nearly as accurate as David Carr is typically.

yeah...he threw it right into that quadruple team!!! sweet!!!!!

i don't care how accurate he is when he makes decisions like that.

[Saint Louis]

Here is a question. Do the other Texan players want to play for Carr? Has Carr lost the ability to lead this team? I'm just thinking back to the plot of the movie "Any Given Sunday".

[MadMax]

Here is a question. Do the other Texan players want to play for Carr? Has Carr lost the ability to lead this team? I'm just thinking back to the plot of the movie "Any Given Sunday".

i guarantee you, at least half of that locker room feels they have a better chance of beating the Giants next week with Sage than David...no matter what they say in the media.

[MadMax]

Another thing...it's not just David Carr that upsets fans. It's the opportunity cost of David Carr. It's who you didn't draft with a #1 pick TWICE (2002 and 2006 drafts) because you made a commitment to Carr that upsets folks about Carr beyond what he does or doesn't do on the field.

[DonnyMost]

i guarantee you, at least half of that locker room feels they have a better chance of beating the Giants next week with Sage than David...no matter what they say in the media.

well if Madmax says it, then boy howdy, it must be true!!

[pgabriel]

well if Madmax says it, then boy howdy, it must be true!!


yeah, I mean didn't you see all those guys cheering him up on the sideline. he was never standing alone and sulking.

[Summer Song Giver]

I have a hard time believing David has the support of his team, we don't know but I really have a hard time believing he does.

[msn]

I don't have time to read all these posts in these threads, just coming in to man up and eat my crow.

My boy DC sucked yesterday. Hard. Worst game of his career. At lease one of the sacks I saw was completely on him.

Whatever the Texans do going forward I'll support, as every QB will have games where he sucks hard. Perhaps DC can put it together, perhaps not.

McClain was on the radio this morning with a pretty accurate take about the game. Everybody but Owen Daniels, some guys on defense, and Wali Lundy sucked. The coaches sucked, too. Worst game of the year, and at the worst possible time.

[rhester]

I don't have time to read all these posts in these threads, just coming in to man up and eat my crow.

My boy DC sucked yesterday. Hard. Worst game of his career. At lease one of the sacks I saw was completely on him.

Whatever the Texans do going forward I'll support, as every QB will have games where he sucks hard. Perhaps DC can put it together, perhaps not.

McClain was on the radio this morning with a pretty accurate take about the game. Everybody but Owen Daniels, some guys on defense, and Wali Lundy sucked. The coaches sucked, too. Worst game of the year, and at the worst possible time.

Hey we have been on opposite sides on Carr and last week I really thought he showed some big improvement getting the ball to AJ.

I would love to get behind Carr and see us win some of these games we have a shot at.

What hurts me the most is, I have watched football for 45 yrs. and I rarely have seen so much benefit of the doubt and excuses given to a QB who does not win games.

I just haven't seen one Texan game where I would say David was the MVP of the game. I can't remember a game where he carried the load.

The one time I remember him making a big play that resulted in a win was the QB sneak on the last play of the game... was that two yrs. ago?

I don't think Carr is a washout at all. I think he could be OK eventually here or better yet given a fresh start with another team. Carr has talent.

But he is not the playmaker, leader, decision maker, difference maker that you take at #1 to build a franchise around. He is not Peyton Manning, or Carlson Palmer. That's my opinion.

He looks like a rookie QB when the pressure in on the pocket and he still does not make plays in the red zone. He is still playing about as good as he did his rookie season.

I love his stats this season. But I don't like his results.

For me, we are cooked, because if Carr doesn't work out we are going to have a hard time getting a good QB.

Just the fact that Rosenfeld looked better than Carr irks me.
Just the fact that we mention Rosenfeld's name in the same sentence as Carr irks me. Just the fact that Kubiak had to pull Carr and put in Rosenfeld irks me. Just the fact that Kubiak is going to have to pull a rabbit out of his hat and turn Carr into a winner, a playmaker and a leader irks me.

OK so I am irked. :D

[MadMax]

McClain was on the radio this morning with a pretty accurate take about the game. Everybody but Owen Daniels, some guys on defense, and Wali Lundy sucked. The coaches sucked, too. Worst game of the year, and at the worst possible time.

what about the OL? i thought they were fine yesterday. sage didn't seem to have a problem with it. the running game was going. i thought they played just fine.

[MadMax]

well if Madmax says it, then boy howdy, it must be true!!

it's just a strongly stated opinion.

[Groogrux]

what about the OL? i thought they were fine yesterday. sage didn't seem to have a problem with it. the running game was going. i thought they played just fine.

I think the OL played better when Sage came in. There were a lot of plays where Carr just didn't have the time. Of course, he shouldn't throw into quadruple coverage or fumble the ball, but let's not act like they both had the same protection, they just didn't.

Again, I know he's our best player currently, but why doesn't AJ ever get flack for missing catches he should make?

[Mr. Clutch]

I think the OL played better when Sage came in. There were a lot of plays where Carr just didn't have the time. Of course, he shouldn't throw into quadruple coverage or fumble the ball, but let's not act like they both had the same protection, they just didn't.

Again, I know he's our best player currently, but why doesn't AJ ever get flack for missing catches he should make?

It's also a factor that Carr just can't seem to feel the pressure and get rid of it or step out when needed. Not all those sacks were the OL's fault. He was still completing a high percentage but sometimes looks lost in the pocket, like he doesn't know where to go to avoid the pressure.

AJ dropped about 3 more passes, including one that turned into an INT for Sage.

[Buck Turgidson]

what about the OL? i thought they were fine yesterday. sage didn't seem to have a problem with it. the running game was going. i thought they played just fine.
Ephraim Salaam played like crap while I was watching. Besides the penalties, on one of Carr's fumbles (I believe the one that was returned for TD), the RDE was basically untouched, just ran right around him.

[MadMax]

I think the OL played better when Sage came in. There were a lot of plays where Carr just didn't have the time. Of course, he shouldn't throw into quadruple coverage or fumble the ball, but let's not act like they both had the same protection, they just didn't.

Again, I know he's our best player currently, but why doesn't AJ ever get flack for missing catches he should make?

I didn't think the OL played better. I think Sage sidestepped pressure. I think it was the very first play...the pressure came...he took 2 steps back to avoid pressure...stepped up into the pocket and hit a player in stride. He moved as the pocket moved. The game seemed to slow down. The pace was different. Carr appears frantic when the pressure comes. He doesn't handle it very well.

If Sage is better...play him.

If the OL plays better for Sage...play him.

Yeah, I hear ya on AJ. He's dropped way too many lately.

[MadMax]

Ephraim Salaam played like crap while I was watching. Besides the penalties, on one of Carr's fumbles (I believe the one that was returned for TD), the RDE was basically untouched, just ran right around him.

you're right..i forgot about the penalties. those sucked.

but still...over 100 yards rushing at halftime.

[rrj_gamz]

Another thing...it's not just David Carr that upsets fans. It's the opportunity cost of David Carr. It's who you didn't draft with a #1 pick TWICE (2002 and 2006 drafts) because you made a commitment to Carr that upsets folks about Carr beyond what he does or doesn't do on the field.

What he said...Although, a lot of fans, including me are upset at Carr too...

[Groogrux]

I didn't think the OL played better. I think Sage sidestepped pressure. I think it was the very first play...the pressure came...he took 2 steps back to avoid pressure...stepped up into the pocket and hit a player in stride. He moved as the pocket moved. The game seemed to slow down. The pace was different. Carr appears frantic when the pressure comes. He doesn't handle it very well.

If Sage is better...play him.

If the OL plays better for Sage...play him.

Yeah, I hear ya on AJ. He's dropped way too many lately.

He handled it just fine the game before when we completely destroyed the Jags and in 5 of their 7 games so far.

Carr may have been the major factor in our loss yesterday. That's the first time all year. I'm not ready to hang the guy because of it.

[jgreen91]

I didn't think the OL played better. I think Sage sidestepped pressure.

Yep. Sage has pocket presence. Our Oline isn't as bad and hasn't been as bad as most people think. Carr just doesn't know how to move in the pocket. Also, Carr needs to get outside of the pocket to throw the ball because he throws side-armed. If he hangs in the pocket to throw, then the passes usually get batted down or deflected.

Carr is an accurate passer when he has plenty of room to work with like when he rolls out. But in the NFL, you don't always have much room to operate.

[Stack24]

This was the first game that we can honestly say Carr was the reason for the loss. All the other games he has done a good job only to have other people make bone head plays and cost us the game. This week was definetly on Carr's Shoulders.

[MadMax]

He handled it just fine the game before when we completely destroyed the Jags and in 5 of their 7 games so far.

Carr may have been the major factor in our loss yesterday. That's the first time all year. I'm not ready to hang the guy because of it.

i recognize we're not gonna agree on this. i'm tired of david carr.

[MadMax]

This was the first game that we can honestly say Carr was the reason for the loss. All the other games he has done a good job only to have other people make bone head plays and cost us the game. This week was definetly on Carr's Shoulders.

he didn't play well in the cowboys game. he threw interceptions that set up chip shot scoring drives. he fumbles constantly, and has his entire career. 60 in 67 games. he makes poor decisions. he looks flustered when there's pressure.

[Stack24]

he didn't play well in the cowboys game. he threw interceptions that set up chip shot scoring drives. he fumbles constantly, and has his entire career. 60 in 67 games. he makes poor decisions. he looks flustered when there's pressure.

I think he's shell shocked...it's going to take some time for him to get out of it...

You are right about the Dallas game...sort of forgot about that becuase i didn't watch the second half, i was in vegas lol...but other than those 2 did he do too bad in the others? I'll have to give him credit on those.

I still believe we are an expansion team in many ways, so much of our personal sucked and they are just now trying to upgrade.

[Groogrux]

i recognize we're not gonna agree on this. i'm tired of david carr.

I'm tired of a crappy defense and crappy run blocking (until the last two games). David Carr, arguably, has cost us one game this season (and even on the fumble returned for the TD, the guy who caused it was not blocked...stupid Carr). We're not a very good team and that's not because of David Carr. Not even close.

[DaDakota]

I'm tired of a crappy defense and crappy run blocking (until the last two games). David Carr, arguably, has cost us one game this season. We're not a very good team and that's not because of David Carr. Not even close.

How did Lundi look yesterday, or Sage with the same restrictions?

I want an HONEST answer RM.

DD

[KingCheetah]

David Carr, right man to lead franchise
___

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/kchee/unlikely.jpg

[MadMax]

I think he's shell shocked...it's going to take some time for him to get out of it...

You are right about the Dallas game...sort of forgot about that becuase i didn't watch the second half, i was in vegas lol...but other than those 2 did he do too bad in the others? I'll have to give him credit on those.

I still believe we are an expansion team in many ways, so much of our personal sucked and they are just now trying to upgrade.

he's been "shell shocked" for 4.5 years, now. the excuses are exacerbating my feelings towards all this, frankly. it's the fact that for 4 years it's always been "someone else's fault" that drives me crazy. then sage comes in yesterday with the exact same team and drives the team up and down and GASP!!! actually puts them in the end zone 3 TIMES!!!!! WITH HIS ARM!! the horror!!! this personnel that's soooo bad around him, was able to get it done. and when the pressure came, sage got out of the way and made smart plays.

[MadMax]

I'm tired of a crappy defense and crappy run blocking (until the last two games). David Carr, arguably, has cost us one game this season (and even on the fumble returned for the TD, the guy who caused it was not blocked...stupid Carr). We're not a very good team and that's not because of David Carr. Not even close.

he threw among the worst interceptions i've ever seen.

he fumbled twice.

is ANY of that his fault?

[DaDakota]

he's been "shell shocked" for 4.5 years, now. the excuses are exacerbating my feelings towards all this, frankly. it's the fact that for 4 years it's always been "someone else's fault" that drives me crazy. then sage comes in yesterday with the exact same team and drives the team up and down and GASP!!! actually puts them in the end zone 3 TIMES!!!!! WITH HIS ARM!! the horror!!! this personnel that's soooo bad around him, was able to get it done. and when the pressure came, sage got out of the way and made smart plays.

Well spoken my good man...and with heart....

HEAR HEAR !!

DD

[KingCheetah]

We're not a very good team and that's not because of David Carr. Not even close.

Carr is the rusty linchpin that needs to be replaced -- the Texans took off once Sage was in the game.

Sage is a better QB than Carr and should be the starter.

Period.

[MadMax]

Carr is the rusty linchpin that needs to be replaced -- the Texans took off once Sage was in the game.

Sage is a better QB than Carr and should be the starter.

Period.

bottom line is from what little i've seen of sage so far, i think they have a better chance to win with him in the game than with david carr, at this point.

had sage come in and struggled...or been unable to move the ball..or been sacked repeatedly...i probably wouldn't be saying that. but none of that happened. he checked off receivers instead of staring one down...and he took what the defense gave him.

[Major]

then sage comes in yesterday with the exact same team and drives the team up and down and GASP!!! actually puts them in the end zone 3 TIMES!!!!! WITH HIS ARM!! the horror!!! this personnel that's soooo bad around him, was able to get it done. and when the pressure came, sage got out of the way and made smart plays.

This is the most important part of it. Up until yesterday, all the arguments were theoretical. You could blame all the other pieces and say no QB could function with that team. But now we have limited evidence otherwise. And the focus for the rest of the season (the team isn't going anywhere regardless) should be to find out if that half with Rosenfels was a fluke or evidence that maybe the rest of the offense isn't really as bad as it looks when Carr is back there. You have 4 1/2 years of evidence with Carr. It should be time to put someone else back there to find out where the problem really is.

[KingCheetah]

A quick reminder Carr is now 20-51 as an NFL starter.

[Mr. Clutch]

This is the most important part of it. Up until yesterday, all the arguments were theoretical. You could blame all the other pieces and say no QB could function with that team. But now we have limited evidence otherwise. And the focus for the rest of the season (the team isn't going anywhere regardless) should be to find out if that half with Rosenfels was a fluke or evidence that maybe the rest of the offense isn't really as bad as it looks when Carr is back there. You have 4 1/2 years of evidence with Carr. It should be time to put someone else back there to find out where the problem really is.

Well, not yet. Kubiak has named Carr the starter for next week. To be fair to Carr, he has had several stretches this year where he looked just as good as Sage looked in the 2nd half yesterday.

[MadMax]

Well, not yet. Kubiak has named Carr the starter for next week. To be fair to Carr, he has had several stretches this year where he looked just as good as Sage looked in the 2nd half yesterday.

has he had a half where he threw 3 TD's??

[Mr. Clutch]

A quick reminder Carr is now 20-51 as an NFL starter.

Another quick reminder. Casserly was the GM and Capers was his coach.

[MadMax]

Another quick reminder. Casserly was the GM and Capers was his coach.

and everyone else they took EXCEPT FOR DAVID CARR was a mistake, right?

[Mr. Clutch]

has he had a half where he threw 3 TD's??

3 in the 4th quarter against Indy. It's not just TDs. He had a 110 rating for the game against Jacksonville and several other games with a 95 plus rating.

[Groogrux]

he threw among the worst interceptions i've ever seen.

he fumbled twice.

is ANY of that his fault?

Did I ever say it wasn't? I'm not here saying he had a great game. He's still, IMO, one of the last things we need to worry about on this team.

You cannot argue against the fact that he has had to play for four years behind arguably the worst offensive line in NFL history. Nor can you argue the fact that he's had two bad games out of seven.

Put it this way, out of the Texans first seven games, they've played three teams with comparable talent. Out of those three games, we're 2-1 and David Carr played a terrible half in the loss. He played extremely well in one of the wins and average to above-average in the other. In the four losses against teams with a considerable talent advantage, he played average to above-average in three of them. I'd say the only game out of those four in which he didn't play average was the Dallas game.

That's not enough for me to hang the guy. Sure Sage came in and played well. If he was able to do that consistently, don't you think he'd be a starter somewhere? I'm guessing there's a reason why Super Duper Sage Rosenfels has been a career backup.

[Major]

Well, not yet. Kubiak has named Carr the starter for next week. To be fair to Carr, he has had several stretches this year where he looked just as good as Sage looked in the 2nd half yesterday.

Yeah - frankly, I'm disappointed by that, but I understand it. I hope each time Carr sucks, they allow Sage to come in. It will help build up more evidence to figure out where the problem is. If Sage generally struggles as much as (or worse than) Carr, it tells us something. If we consistently do better with him, that tells us something as well. I would just like to find out one way or another, or you risk wasting next season as well.

[MadMax]

3 in the 4th quarter against Indy. It's not just TDs. He had a 110 rating for the game against Jacksonville and several other games with a 95 plus rating.

i forgot about Indy..that's right.

i don't care about passer ratings. i care about TD's and interceptions.

[DaDakota]

How did Lundy look yesterday, or Sage with the same restrictions?

I want an HONEST answer RM95.

DD

RM95, what say you?

[MadMax]

Did I ever say it wasn't? I'm not here saying he had a great game. He's still, IMO, one of the last things we need to worry about on this team.

You cannot argue against the fact that he has had to play for four years behind arguably the worst offensive line in NFL history. Nor can you argue the fact that he's had two bad games out of seven.

Put it this way, out of the Texans first seven games, they've played three teams with comparable talent. Out of those three games, we're 2-1 and David Carr played a terrible half in the loss. He played extremely well in one of the wins and average to above-average in the other. In the four losses against teams with a considerable talent advantage, he played average to above-average in three of them. I'd say the only game out of those four in which he didn't play average was the Dallas game.

That's not enough for me to hang the guy. Sure Sage came in and played well. If he was able to do that consistently, don't you think he'd be a starter somewhere? I'm guessing there's a reason why Super Duper Sage Rosenfels has been a career backup.

i wasn't sure if you were saying it was his fault or not.

i don't think sage is super. but i think what i saw yesterday casts serious doubt on all the excuses i've heard about carr.

[Mr. Clutch]

Yeah - frankly, I'm disappointed by that, but I understand it. I hope each time Carr sucks, they allow Sage to come in. It will help build up more evidence to figure out where the problem is. If Sage generally struggles as much as (or worse than) Carr, it tells us something. If we consistently do better with him, that tells us something as well. I would just like to find out one way or another, or you risk wasting next season as well.

Definitely, I agree with that. It looks like Kubiak isn't afraid to make changes. Heck, how long did Capers start Buchanon before he realized he sucked? 5 games? I'm glad Kubiak hold players accountable.

[Stack24]

Definitely, I agree with that. It looks like Kubiak isn't afraid to make changes. Heck, how long did Capers start Buchanon before he realized he sucked? 5 games? I'm glad Kubiak hold players accountable.

That's one thing i really like. he pulls their leash and shows them they no one is untouchable. Hopefully it will get to them and they will see that at any time they can lose their job.

[Groogrux]

i don't think sage is super. but i think what i saw yesterday casts serious doubt on all the excuses i've heard about carr.

If that's the case, then why wouldn't the times where Carr has played that well cast serious doubts on the excuses. Carr has played that well before.

Again, if Super Duper Sage is so awesome, why is he a career backup?

[Major]

If that's the case, then why wouldn't the times where Carr has played that well cast serious doubts on the excuses. Carr has played that well before.


Sure - but in 4 1/2 years, playing well at times is not really what you're looking for anymore. You're looking for consistent improvement over those years and has he really showed that?


Again, if Super Duper Sage is so awesome, why is he a career backup?

Two possibilities

1. Perhaps for the same reason many really bad QBs are still starting - stubbornness.

2. He's never been behind a QB as bad as Carr (which would be saying a lot since he played in Miami for 4 years).

:D

[Major]

Again, if Super Duper Sage is so awesome, why is he a career backup?

You also realize you quoted a post that said "I don't think sage is super". :)

[Groogrux]

Sure - but in 4 1/2 years, playing well at times is not really what you're looking for anymore. You're looking for consistent improvement over those years and has he really showed that?

I think there are valid reasons why there wasn't a lot of improvement from year 1 to year 4. I think there is definitely improvement this year. He's basically had two terrible halves of games out of 14.

This team is not 2-5 becuase of Carr. They'd be no better than 2-5 if Super Duper Sage, the journeyman backup QB had been starting.

[DaDakota]

This team is not 2-5 becuase of Carr. They'd be no better than 2-5 if Super Duper Sage, the journeyman backup QB had been starting.

I would disagree a tad here, I think they would have beaten the Titans yesterday if Sage played the whole game.

DD

[rhester]

Again, if Super Duper Sage is so awesome, why is he a career backup?

Super Duper Sage is not awesome, he is only a journeyman backup and that says it all about D Carr.

The fact they are in this situation says all you need to know about Carr.

Here is a True and False quiz-

1. Super Duper Sage out played D Carr in yesterday's Titan's game.
2. The head coach of the Texans benched D Carr because he didn't take care of the football and it was hurting the team.
3. D Carr led the Texans to victory yesterday against the Titans, throwing 3 touchdown passes with no turnovers and the Texans are now 3-4 with a bright future.

[Groogrux]

I would disagree a tad here, I think they would have beaten the Titans yesterday if Sage played the whole game.

DD

I'm not ready to take a half of a game by a journeyman backup QB and say that he'd have definitely played as well as Carr did in our two wins.

Sure, he played well, but it was only a half (and don't give me preseason stats where he was playing against second and third stringers).

[KingCheetah]

If Sage is a journeyman backup then Carr should be playing Arena football.

[Groogrux]

If Sage is a journeyman backup then Carr should be playing Arena football.

Yeah, you're right. Professional GMs are retarded and internet armchair QBs are right. My bad.

[Major]

I'm not ready to take a half of a game by a journeyman backup QB and say that he'd have definitely played as well as Carr did in our two wins.

Sure, he played well, but it was only a half (and don't give me preseason stats where he was playing against second and third stringers).

But how will you ever know unless they play him?

[Major]

Yeah, you're right. Professional GMs are retarded and intenet armchair QBs are right. My bad.

So you think Casserly (a professional GM) made all the right moves? :)

[MadMax]

Yeah, you're right. Professional GMs are retarded and internet armchair QBs are right. My bad.

i think you can make a pretty good case that the same GM who took David Carr was mentally unstable. :D

[Groogrux]

But how will you ever know unless they play him?

They do see him in practice. I'm guessing professional GMs know much more about Sage Rosenfels and his potential than we do.

The guy's been in the NFL for six years. I'm guessing if he was so Super Duper, someone would be starting him at this time.

[MadMax]

They do see him in practice. I'm guessing professional GMs know much more about Sage Rosenfels and his potential than we do.

just like all those guys who passed up tom brady, right?

(for the record, i'm not saying sage is tom!!!!)

[Groogrux]

just like all those guys who passed up tom brady, right?

(for the record, i'm not saying sage is tom!!!!)

It's been six seasons. History is full of GMs who passed on players. Even the Patriots passed on Brady a few times. Super Duper Sage has been in the league for six seasons, the vast vast majority of that time as a backup. I'm sorry if I'm not ready to proclaim him better than David Carr after one good half, especially when Carr's only had two (maybe three) bad halves this year.

[rhester]

Great a quarterback controversy between Sage and David...

Now if we had drafted Vince I could understand...

But this is like have a controversy over should Yao start or should Deke start...


Says all I need to know about where David Carr is in his career, I still think he is every bit as effective as he was his rookie season.

[MadMax]

It's been six seasons. History is full of GMs who passed on players. Even the Patriots passed on Brady a few times. Super Duper Sage has been in the league for six seasons, the vast vast majority of that time as a backup. I'm sorry if I'm not ready to proclaim him better than David Carr after one good half, especially when Carr's only had two (maybe three) bad halves this year.

i know you're not! :)

i still think they have a better chance to win with sage than with david. i don't know if that makes sage "better" or not.

[Groogrux]

Great a quarterback controversy between Sage and David...


It's not a controversy. Kubiak is starting Carr on Sunday. He apparently has actually watched him play this season and is not going to bench him when he's only had two or three bad halves.

It's only a controversy for those who have been waiting/hoping for Carr to have a half like he did Sunday. Super Duper Sage has been a backup for the vast majority of 6 seasons in the NFL. I'm glad Kubiak is our coach and not you guys.

[KingCheetah]

Yeah, you're right. Professional GMs are retarded and internet armchair QBs are right. My bad.

I did not realize that you were a professional GM and I am truly sorry for disability ~ though I prefer to use the term 'differently abled'.

[rhester]

It's not a controversy. Kubiak is starting Carr on Sunday. He apparently has actually watched him play this season and is not going to bench him when he's only had two or three bad halves.

It's only a controversy for those who have been waiting/hoping for Carr to have a half like he did Sunday. Super Duper Sage has been a backup for the vast majority of 6 seasons in the NFL. I'm glad Kubiak is our coach and not you guys.

That was tongue and cheek. I want my franchise QB to keep a scrub off the field at the very least.

I haven't been a Carr fan for 4 yrs. Good and Bad games.

I don't like him as a QB, he is not a playmaker like Manning, Manning, Palmer, Breese, etc.

Wasted a #1 pick... although I had no idea at the time, I was trusting in C Casserly... but I dropped that professional GM after the 2nd draft.

Once I realized he was clueless as a talent evaluator.

Because 3 seasons ago I didn't think Carr had what it took I got all giddy when VY declared for the draft and we had the #1 pick.

It was a match made in heaven, another set up like the Rockets lucked into with Hakeem...

But NO we had to go with all the 'experts'.

Well most GM's are not experts, just look at the results. Few really put title contenders together.

Most do about as well as you or I could with a little help from internet sites.

[HillBoy]

They do see him in practice. I'm guessing professional GMs know much more about Sage Rosenfels and his potential than we do.

The guy's been in the NFL for six years. I'm guessing if he was so Super Duper, someone would be starting him at this time.
That's what makes what happened yesterday so infuriating. This isn't the 2nd coming of Tom Brady or Peyton Manning we're talking about - it's Sage Rosenfels for chrissake. Yet when you look yesterday at how Carr handled himself and compare it to the way Rosenfels handled himself, who would you think was the no. 1 pick vs. the journeyman? This is a recurring theme with Carr - remember how badly he looked in Dallas? After yesterday, I am forced to admit that something is missing with him and I don't have a clue as to what can be done to get him to step up and start leading this team to some wins.

[msn]

Well most GM's are not experts, just look at the results. Few really put title contenders together.

Most do about as well as you or I could with a little help from internet sites.
If you really believe this, the credibility of your arguments just took a serious hit.

[jgreen91]

Last year when Tony Banks came in, he looked significantally better than David Carr. I think David Carr has been shoved down Houstonian's throats that we don't know any better until someone else comes in. Thats when we really see how bad this guy is.

At least the Lions organization finally realized it with Harrington, I wish the Texans organization weren't so stubborn when it comes to Carr.

[jgreen91]

A quick reminder Carr is now 20-51 as an NFL starter.

And has 60 fumbles.

[gucci888]

At least the Lions organization finally realized it with Harrington, I wish the Texans organization weren't so stubborn when it comes to Carr.

To be fair, the Lions replaced him with freak'n John Kitna so I don't know how much of an upgrade (if any) there was with that move. The Texans invested so much into Carr that I thought it was worth a shot to give Kubiak a chance to work with him. Carr has shown flashes of being a really good QB here and there.

But I do agree that the Texans need to start looking for a replacement. Whether they look at FA, trades, draft picks, Carr has been the one consistent with this franchise (except for McNair).

[DaDakota]

Look, I am convinced the Texans should have taken VY...but...David Carr has been pretty good this year, and has made major strides.....

Let's see how he reacts to the benching......I applaud Kubiak for testing his metal.

DD

[Summer Song Giver]

Look, I am convinced the Texans should have taken VY...but...David Carr has been pretty good this year, and has made major strides.....

Let's see how he reacts to the benching......I applaud Kubiak for testing his metal.

DD

I just threw up a little bit, how can you still hold any hope for this guy, his metal is aluminum.

[Khal80]

No one questioned DC being the first pick when we drafted. And he has not been labeled a bust.

This season was his season to show he is a starting qb, and two bad games does not make a him a backup qb.

and to all those saying we should have taken VY, he is not even the best qb taken in the draft. Leinart is better, and from the little i saw/hear about cutler. are two qbs that will be better than VY when it is all said an done.

you guys underestimate DC (or at least dont give him credit for), he never sat their and bit**ed about being sacked a record number of times when the oline was just horrible. He got up everytime and played, IMO that is leadership. The guy didnt take off his helmet when he was benched. I think he will be ready not only this coming sunday but for a few more years....get use to it haters

and leadership isnt dancing for teammate when they do something good on the field

[Buck Turgidson]

The word is "mettle".

[Ric]

Last year when Tony Banks came in, he looked significantally better than David Carr.
we should start revoking posting privileges....

banks played in ONE game last year. he was 14/25 for 173 yards, 1 td and 2 ints... and the texans lost to the freaking SF 49ers.

[Ric]

we should start revoking posting privileges....

banks played in ONE game last year. he was 14/25 for 173 yards, 1 td and 2 ints... and the texans lost to the freaking SF 49ers.
sorry; forgot to add, "and had a 57.6 passer rating..."

[Pocket Rockets]

No one questioned DC being the first pick when we drafted. And he has not been labeled a bust.

This season was his season to show he is a starting qb, and two bad games does not make a him a backup qb.

and to all those saying we should have taken VY, he is not even the best qb taken in the draft. Leinart is better, and from the little i saw/hear about cutler. are two qbs that will be better than VY when it is all said an done.

you guys underestimate DC (or at least dont give him credit for), he never sat their and bit**ed about being sacked a record number of times when the oline was just horrible. He got up everytime and played, IMO that is leadership. The guy didnt take off his helmet when he was benched. I think he will be ready not only this coming sunday but for a few more years....get use to it haters

and leadership isnt dancing for teammate when they do something good on the field

back to the drawing board for you, huh?
Who cares if this guy has leadership qualities...the fact is he cannot perform when the game is on the line! Sometimes there are just players that get accustom(sp?) to losing and can't break out of it...lets just home the franchise isn't in that mindset.

i don't think he will last a couple more years as you say....if this team ends up with only 4 wins then i believe he is gone...the only way he comes back imo is if we end up 7-9 or .500 or better, which is highly unlikely.

[rhino17]

you guys underestimate DC (or at least dont give him credit for), he never sat their and bit**ed about being sacked a record number of times when the oline was just horrible. He got up everytime and played, IMO that is leadership. The guy didnt take off his helmet when he was benched. I think he will be ready not only this coming sunday but for a few more years....get use to it haters

and leadership isnt dancing for teammate when they do something good on the field

You overestimate DC. Yes the oline is bad but you have to realize, carr causes many of the sacks himself. He holds on to the ball to long and is too indecissive. Getting up after being sacked is not what I call leadership. I call taking a team on your back and single-handedly winning a game,(VY Rose Bowl) is leadership. Having your teamates trust in you and not letting them down is part of leadership. And most importantly, playing your best when the game is on the line. The biggest game of the season the game where he could prove all his critics wrong, he screwed up. He played his worst game of the year. The guy cannot play under pressure. He is not a leader or a winner. He has never carried a team to victory and has proven nothing in 5 years in the NFL. Everyone is treating Carr like a rookie saying oh just give him some time to figure things out. You know what IT HAS BEEN 5 YEARS and he is still CLUELESS. This guy is not a player you can depend on and he never will be.

[rhester]

If you really believe this, the credibility of your arguments just took a serious hit.

I for one would much rather had you drafting for the Texans over the first 4 seasons than Charlie Casserly.

I have read your posts and I can say emphatically we would have a better team right now.

Sorry, we disagree on this.

[msn]

I for one would much rather had you drafting for the Texans over the first 4 seasons than Charlie Casserly.

I have read your posts and I can say emphatically we would have a better team right now.
Thanks, but seriously I believe I would have screwed up even worse than CC. Not to defend the piece of crap he built here or the hideous "performance" he turned in, but he *did* build a SuperBowl champion elsewhere, and folks forget that. There's just more to it than numbers and how well someone played in college or in another NFL town. And, I would get run out of there in about a week, if that.

Sorry, we disagree on this.
We do. But thanks for answering my rather terse remark so diplomatically.

[rhester]

Thanks, but seriously I believe I would have screwed up even worse than CC. Not to defend the piece of crap he built here or the hideous "performance" he turned in, but he *did* build a SuperBowl champion elsewhere, and folks forget that. There's just more to it than numbers and how well someone played in college or in another NFL town. And, I would get run out of there in about a week, if that.


We do. But thanks for answering my rather terse remark so diplomatically.

It would be interesting to look back and see if you just took the Mel Kiper (who I don't like) draft board and the Texans picked accordingly what our roster would look like?

[underoverup]

carr deserves another shot of course, but if he messes up again like sunday then sage comes in and does well then there should be a change at qb. i think everyone can agree on this, right? :confused:

[updawg]

carr deserves another shot of course, but if he messes up again like sunday then sage comes in and does well then there should be a change at qb. i think everyone can agree on this, right? :confused:
Sounds good to me. But I think the people for Carr will say the Giants are just too good of a team etc.

[msn]

Sounds good to me. But I think the people for Carr will say the Giants are just too good of a team etc.
No, but you might hear (correctly) that it's Carr's performance that should be evalutated, not the score at the end of the game (unless, of course, his performance is directly responsible for the score at the end of the game).

[SamFisher]

The Giants defensive front seven will be deemed too difficult for Carr to deal with (despite the fact that they are down two starting DL and Lavar Arrington) so he gets a free pass to suck this weekend.

[The Real Shady]

The Giants defensive front seven will be deemed too difficult for Carr to deal with (despite the fact that they are down two starting DL and Lavar Arrington) so he gets a free pass to suck this weekend.

This game could mark the end of Carr. If the Giants get presure on Carr he'll fold like he always does against a pass rush. Now if Sage enters the game again and is successful moving the ball then Carr should be put on the bench permanently.

[SwoLy-D]

The Giants defensive front seven will be deemed too difficult for Carr to deal with (despite the fact that they are down two starting DL and Lavar Arrington) so he gets a free pass to suck this weekend.SO are you saying that it's CARR by himself, no OFFENSIVE LINE, Tight Ends, or Running Backs to block for him? It should ALL be on CARR? Is that right? http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/106.gif

[SamFisher]

SO are you saying that it's CARR by himself, no OFFENSIVE LINE, Tight Ends, or Running Backs to block for him? It should ALL be on CARR? Is that right? http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/106.gif

No, this is what I'm saying:

The Giants defensive front seven will be deemed too difficult for Carr to deal with (despite the fact that they are down two starting DL and Lavar Arrington) so he gets a free pass to suck this weekend.

[rhester]

In spite of all I've said, I hope Carr kicks the giants all over the stadium Sun. and we get a win.

[SwoLy-D]

OK, SamFisher, I got your point. Now, what about the Offensive Line, Tight Ends, or Running backs? Are they going to take the day off? Please tell me what you think about players NOT blocking OR blocking for ANY quarterback that is in there. Please focus on that. :cool:

[ima_drummer2k]

No, this is what I'm saying:

The Giants defensive front seven will be deemed too difficult for Carr to deal with (despite the fact that they are down two starting DL and Lavar Arrington) so he gets a free pass to suck this weekend.
What are you trying to say?

:confused:

[updawg]

he's trying to say that there is always going to be an excuse for Carr.

Do you guys think the rest of the offense takes plays off when Carr is in there? But when the backup comes in they actually block and try.

Last week the excuse was that it was garbage time, thats why Sage looked better. This week will be because the Giants are a far superior team that the Texans can't match up with. The week after will be something else.

[Groogrux]

Last week the excuse was that it was garbage time, thats why Sage looked better. This week will be because the Giants are a far superior team that the Texans can't match up with. The week after will be something else.

Just like the excuses the haters have for when he doesn't have a bad game. Oh, he's just throwing dumpoff passes or he's playing against a team that didn't show up...so on and so forth.

I haven't heard one poster who supports Carr say that he did not suck on Sunday. He did. But, you have all kinds of posters who are willing to forget Carr's cumulative good season and wish to start a guy who's had one good half. They like to point that there's 4.5 years of evidence on Carr, that we know what we have. Why can't we point to the 6 years of Rosenfels being a backup? How is that not evidence that he's not starter material?

I don't think there will be any excuses by the team if Carr sucks this week if he plays like he did Sunday. Rest assured, if our OL sucks and Carr doesn't play well, the haters will not hesitate to cast the blame soley on Carr. In fact, Carr could throw for 365 yards and 4 TDs and people would say he only did that because the Giants were missing two DL and Arrington (you know, if we're going to make dumbass predicitions on what others will say about a game that hasn't even been played yet).

[underoverup]

Sounds good to me. But I think the people for Carr will say the Giants are just too good of a team etc.

it is amazing all the excuses they come up with for carr, i don't dislike him by any means, but he just has never seemed comfortable in the nfl. some people have 'it' and some dont' next week is carr's last chance imo, kubiak didn't just pull him for the fun of it.

[underoverup]

Why can't we point to the 6 years of Rosenfels being a backup? How is that not evidence that he's not starter material?

rich gannon was a career backup before taking his team to the superbowl, i'm sure there are many more career backups that have done well once they were given a shot.

[Buck Turgidson]

rich gannon was a career backup before taking his team to the superbowl, i'm sure there are many more career backups that have done well once they were given a shot.
Terry Bradshaw & Phil Simms were starters who struggled for years early in their careers before taking their teams to the superbowl. I'm sure there are many more young starters that have done well once they became acclimated to the league & were given a decent supporting cast.

We can play this game all day. It tells us nothing.

[SamFisher]

Just like the excuses the haters have for when he doesn't have a bad game

***


In fact, Carr could throw for 365 yards and 4 TDs and people would say he only did that because the Giants were missing two DL and Arrington (you know, if we're going to make dumbass predicitions on what others will say about a game that hasn't even been played yet).

That's the way it always is for David Carr, the bar is "not having a bad game." despite the fact he is allegedly (and compensated as) an elite QB.

As far as going for 365 yards and 4 TDs or anything close - why are you even fretting that that is even going to be a possibility?

In 4.5 years of starting, he's posted numbers similar to that exactly once in a loss in 2004 vs. Minnesota (372 yards, 3 td's, 0 ints).

Why don't you go dig up the 2004 game thread and show me the people who said that back then? Too busy constructing the myth that he never was given a chance despite years and millions of dollars?

As far as predictions though, I predict you and your drama queen attitude wil be back here next week, making caustic posts about anybody who smells of disloyalty to the Texans to you, as you seem to have adopted this as one of your pet issues; I predict that it will be mildly amusing to me to see it.

[rhester]

Terry Bradshaw & Phil Simms were starters who struggled for years early in their careers before taking their teams to the superbowl. I'm sure there are many more young starters that have done well once they became acclimated to the league & were given a decent supporting cast.

We can play this game all day. It tells us nothing.

I think Carr and Phil Simms are similar, you just gave me a little hope. :)

[Groogrux]

That's the way it always is for David Carr, the bar is "not having a bad game." despite the fact he is allegedly (and compensated as) an elite QB.

Well, I think that he had an excellent game against Jacksonville. Yet, people wanted to make excuses against that. I predict that if he throws for 225 yards, 2 TDs, and 0 ints, either people will use your already built-in excuse that the Giants are missing three of their front seven or they won't show up at all.

As far as predictions though, I predict you and your drama queen attitude wil be back here next week, making caustic posts about anybody who smells of disloyalty to the Texans to you, as you seem to have adopted this as one of your pet issues; I predict that it will be mildly amusing to me to see it.

You, of all posters, calling me a drama queen just made my day.

[msn]

As far as predictions though, I predict you and your drama queen attitude wil be back here next week, making caustic posts about anybody who smells of disloyalty to the Texans to you, as you seem to have adopted this as one of your pet issues; I predict that it will be mildly amusing to me to see it.
Nice ad hominem. I can't speak for the drama queen [sic] himself, but I will say that it's not about loyalty. It's about gratuitous bitching and moaning that is rarely based upon sound logic.

As far as terse remarks from RM95 or anyone else, you seem adept at dishing out so I would hope you don't mind taking it.

[Groogrux]

Nice ad hominem. I can't speak for the drama queen [sic] himself, but I will say that it's not about loyalty. It's about gratuitous bitching and moaning that is rarely based upon sound logic.

Bingo. As I've posted numerous times, I was happy with the decision to bench Carr on Sunday. However, at this point in this season, he has earned the right to make up for that performance. Luckily, the coach agrees with me and not those who want to start a 6-year backup after one good half.

[jgreen91]

As far as predictions though, I predict you and your drama queen attitude wil be back here next week, making caustic posts about anybody who smells of disloyalty to the Texans to you, as you seem to have adopted this as one of your pet issues; I predict that it will be mildly amusing to me to see it.

I like it.

[SamFisher]

I predict that if he throws for 225 yards, 2 TDs, and 0 ints, either people will use your already built-in excuse that the Giants are missing three of their front seven or they won't show up at all.

As opposed to the rightul state of the universe, wheere a legion of posters should show up with the appropriate "way to be average, Carr!" accolades.

You, of all posters, calling me a drama queen just made my day.

Anybody who is brought to tears whenever Kelly Clarkson's fat ass is noted on the internet = drama queen

[Desert Scar]

Carr's 1st 5 years: 76 rating, 57TD, 58INTs, 59% completion %.

Jake Plummers 1st 5 years: 70 rating, 72TD, 94INTs, 56%.
..last 4 in Denver: 85 rating, 65TD, 41INT, 59%.

I think it might be time for the Texans and Carr to part ways for their both's sake, but if so it says more about the Texans than Carr.

BTW Reggie Bush has a 3YRP and 1TD and 1FB (lost) and 1INT through 7 games (no TDs in preseason either). Where are the 1-2 TDs he would produce for any NFL team he would arrive to. Where can all the fans that lead to his #1 jersey sales before he ever even played an NFL game go to get their refund? How soon will Saints fans with his jersey have to ask for extra paper bags on their way out of Winn Dixie (for those familair with the old Saints era).

[Groogrux]

I like it.

Nevermind the fact that I've posted that he should've been benched on Sunday and that I feel that if he has another performance like Sunday, he should be benched again.

[Groogrux]

As opposed to the rightul state of the universe, wheere a legion of posters should show up with the appropriate "way to be average, Carr!" accolades.

I feel that if a fan is going to bash someone non-stop, they should at least have the decency to give him props when he has a good game.

Anybody who is brought to tears whenever Kelly Clarkson's fat ass is noted on the internet = drama queen

Anyone who is brought to tears by people not liking Greg Davis' conservative philosophy or who doesn't like Kelly Clarkson or [insert every other thread that you've ever posted in] = queen drama queen.

[SwoLy-D]

Anybody who is brought to tears whenever Kelly Clarkson's fat ass is noted on the internet = drama queenI think she can sing her *ss off. I don't know about a BIG or FAT or THICK *ss, but she can SING. I don't bring myself to tears for Kelly Clarkson.

"That [girl] CAN SING!!!" - barber shop dude at beauty pageant

Anyway, man. Let's stop this bickering. CAN WE JUST CHEER the TEXANS regardless of who is the quarterback, ya'll? :(

[Khal80]

Anyway, man. Let's stop this bickering. CAN WE JUST CHEER the TEXANS regardless of who is the quarterback, ya'll? :(

I take you up on that,,,,for some odd reason, I still think were going to go on a run and end up having a great season???!!!!!???!!!!!!

[Groogrux]

I take you up on that,,,,for some odd reason, I still think were going to go on a run and end up having a great season???!!!!!???!!!!!!

It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. We could be favored in at least four of our remaining games. Even with Carr's horrendous first half, we still had a decent shot against Tennessee. We're 2-1 against teams with comparable talent levels and have games with Tennessee, Cleveland, Oakland, Buffalo and the Jets left. If Carr plays like he has for the vast majority of the year, our defense continues to improve, and our running game the last two weeks isn't a fluke, it wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with six-seven wins.

[KingCheetah]

As opposed to the rightul state of the universe, wheere a legion of posters should show up with the appropriate "way to be average, Carr!" accolades.

Anybody who is brought to tears whenever Kelly Clarkson's fat ass is noted on the internet = drama queen

Careful Sam ~ RM95 bleeds Texans' battle red blood !

[msn]

It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. We could be favored in at least four of our remaining games. Even with Carr's horrendous first half, we still had a decent shot against Tennessee. We're 2-1 against teams with comparable talent levels and have games with Tennessee, Cleveland, Oakland, Buffalo and the Jets left. If Carr plays like he has for the vast majority of the year, our defense continues to improve, and our running game the last two weeks isn't a fluke, it wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with six-seven wins.
See, I think that's a little unrealistic. New scheme, new coaches, etc: even these guys are professionals it just won't be built in a day. I *expected* implosions like Sunday's to take place this season, and I'm still expecting 4-12. If they go 5-11 or God forbid 6-10 I'll be beside myself with pleasant surprise.

[SamFisher]

Anyone who is brought to tears by people not liking Greg Davis' conservative philosophy or who doesn't like Kelly Clarkson or [insert every other thread that you've ever posted in] = queen drama queen.

I'll remember that next time I seek marital advice on a basketball BBS.

[Groogrux]

I'll remember that next time I seek marital advice on a basketball BBS.

I have no idea what this means, so I'm probably better off for it.

Unless, of course, it's a dig at my currrent marital situation. In that case, you're a bigger dick than I thought.

[MadMax]

man, this is getting ridiculously personal. it's just david carr and football.

[ima_drummer2k]

I'm going off to write some poetry.

[Buck Turgidson]

man, this is getting ridiculously personal. it's just david carr and football.
Come to think of it...isn't your son a Carr fan? Probably says something about you as a father, and is clearly relevant to your posts on an internet site, or something. :confused: :(

[MadMax]

Come to think of it...isn't your son a Carr fan? Probably says something about you as a father, and is clearly relevant to your posts on an internet site, or something. :confused: :(

he loves the texans far more than i do, that's for sure. clearly i'm a failure as a father because he and i disagree on this issue.

[SamFisher]

I have no idea what this means, so I'm probably better off for it.

Unless, of course, it's a dig at my currrent marital situation. In that case, you're a bigger dick than I thought.


I don't recall anything about or care that much about your current marital situation other than wishing you well, whatever it might be.

[Groogrux]

I don't recall anything about or care that much about your current marital situation other than wishing you well, whatever it might be.

Then I still don't have any idea what that post means.

But I'm finally taking Buck's advice.

[Mr. Clutch]

Carr's 1st 5 years: 76 rating, 57TD, 58INTs, 59% completion %.

Jake Plummers 1st 5 years: 70 rating, 72TD, 94INTs, 56%.
..last 4 in Denver: 85 rating, 65TD, 41INT, 59%.

I think it might be time for the Texans and Carr to part ways for their both's sake, but if so it says more about the Texans than Carr.

BTW Reggie Bush has a 3YRP and 1TD and 1FB (lost) and 1INT through 7 games (no TDs in preseason either). Where are the 1-2 TDs he would produce for any NFL team he would arrive to. Where can all the fans that lead to his #1 jersey sales before he ever even played an NFL game go to get their refund? How soon will Saints fans with his jersey have to ask for extra paper bags on their way out of Winn Dixie (for those familair with the old Saints era).

Carr has played on an EXPANSION franchise, and a poorly run one at that. With a competent coach this year, Carr has a 90+ QB rating. Carr is not perfect, but the comparison to Plummer isn't a fair one, IMO.

As far as Bush- blah blah blah. Your boy Vince isn't even completing 50% of his passes and has a couple of games without even reaching 100 yards.

[KingCheetah]

Whoa, I am...

http://i11.tinypic.com/2z3zynm.jpg

OUTTA HERE

[hatemavs4life]

I would disagree a tad here, I think they would have beaten the Titans yesterday if Sage played the whole game.

DD

Hell DaDa, if he only had a minute left (two at most) IMO we would've won, when we stopped turning the damn ball over we found the Titans defense was virtually defenseless. That's why that loss is so maddening! :mad:

We gave them the DAMN game! Uugh!!!

[hatemavs4life]

BTW Reggie Bush has a 3YRP and 1TD and 1FB (lost) and 1INT through 7 games (no TDs in preseason either). Where are the 1-2 TDs he would produce for any NFL team he would arrive to. Where can all the fans that lead to his #1 jersey sales before he ever even played an NFL game go to get their refund? How soon will Saints fans with his jersey have to ask for extra paper bags on their way out of Winn Dixie (for those familair with the old Saints era).

As long as Drew is QB'ing, I doubt this will happen. Also, the Saints core is stronger than EVER before. Colston with Horn, the Deuce is once again loose, better coaching and improved D. As far as Bush goes, he's definitely not earning his paycheck. The Saints may have drank too much of the USC definite star euphoric koolaid.

[hatemavs4life]

Sounds good to me. But I think the people for Carr will say the Giants are just too good of a team etc.

Enough of the damn excuses, from this point forward, Carr has to play desperate because based on his performance, his job is depending on it. He beats the G-Men I will legitimately be impressed but dont count on it. Bottom line, this week Carr either sh*ts or gets off the pot. Enough B.S. and enough free passes rhetoric.

[Desert Scar]

Carr has played on an EXPANSION franchise, and a poorly run one at that. With a competent coach this year, Carr has a 90+ QB rating. Carr is not perfect, but the comparison to Plummer isn't a fair one, IMO.

I meant it as a positive comparison, not a negative. Plummer made the Pro Bowl in an optimal situation. Carr has his rating and better completion % in a worse situation. My whole point is the crit on Carr should be more directed as his team.

...
As far as Bush- blah blah blah. Your boy Vince isn't even completing 50% of his passes and has a couple of games without even reaching 100 yards.

Hey, VY is 2-2 as a starter, a team hopeless and 0-3 before the change. Besides, noone expected VY to play this year, QBs have learning curves. Still, without knowing much about the pro game, he makes Tenn a more competitive team. I don't think Tenn would take any rookie over him--including Mr Bush, I'll tell you that.

As long as Drew is QB'ing, I doubt this will happen. Also, the Saints core is stronger than EVER before. Colston with Horn, the Deuce is once again loose, better coaching and improved D. As far as Bush goes, he's definitely not earning his paycheck. The Saints may have drank too much of the USC definite star euphoric koolaid.

Oh I think the Saints are in a positive direction. They will end 9-7 or 8-8, better than expected. But the supposed most untouchable uncatchable player since Gale Sayers hasn't looked like the best rookie running back, best running back on his team, or best rookie on his team, let alone slam dunk best overall rook that so many thought. The bags are not for all fans, just Bush jersey wearing ones. Maybe he will give them so of his 50+ mil pooring out of that franchise so they can get a refund.

[hatemavs4life]

D-Scar,

Instead of bags over heads, perhaps hold "I'm with stupid <arrow pointing ones> signs. :D

He'll get better, but he's no superstar.

[rhino17]

My whole point is the crit on Carr should be more directed as his team.

Much of the blame is going to Carr because this team has never been successful, made the playoffs or done anyhting close to that. What has been the one constant on this team trough all 5 years of it's existance? DAVID CARR. In five years he has done nothing. Dont tell that this crap that he has played well this year. He has played mediocre at best. Yes, not until this last game, he was not turning the ball over or costing us the game. Problem is, he isnt winning the game for us either. We need more than that from a quarterback. They need to do more than just manage a game, they need to have the ability to take over a game and lead a team to victory. And at the end of the day, David Carr has not and will not ever do that.

[VooDooPope]

Much of the blame is going to Carr because this team has never been successful, made the playoffs or done anyhting close to that. What has been the one constant on this team trough all 5 years of it's existance? DAVID CARR. In five years he has done nothing. Dont tell that this crap that he has played well this year. He has played mediocre at best. Yes, not until this last game, he was not turning the ball over or costing us the game. Problem is, he isnt winning the game for us either. We need more than that from a quarterback. They need to do more than just manage a game, they need to have the ability to take over a game and lead a team to victory. And at the end of the day, David Carr has not and will not ever do that.

great post

[SamFisher]

Problem is, he isnt winning the game for us either.

Exactly, and he is being paid and given the treatment of somebody who is.

For all the $$ and experience, fans have a right to expect more than just "well at least he didn't make any mistakes and you can't blame him for everybody else" at this point in his career.

[HillBoy]

I have been willing give Carr time to pull himself back together after literally getting being nuked for 4 years but on Sunday once again I saw something that really disturbed me: Carr looked (and looks) like a guy who has lost his confidence - he looks like HE doesn't believe that he really belongs in the league anymore. And if he has no confidence in himself, then why should anyone expect his teammates to have confidence in him? More importantly, how can you expect to win with a QB who has lost his confidence in himself? (Answer: You don't)

That's where I think the Texans find themselves today. They may not publicly say it but a bunch of guys have to be wondering if he is the one. To a man, the Titans will stand up and tell anyone who's listening that VY is just that yet as John McClain said on Sunday, he has NEVER heard one Texans player say the same about Carr. On Sunday, He came out scared to make a mistake in a huge statement game against golden boy VY and fell flat on his ass. Facing the last place defense in the entire NFL, he was benched and outplayed by a journeyman QB. I was struck by the dramatic difference between his level of play and that of VY & Sage. I think Lopez is dead on about this being a crossroads for Carr. Unless he starts leading this team to some wins, his tenure here is done and the Texans will literally be starting over from ground zero.

[Mr. Clutch]

Hey, VY is 2-2 as a starter, a team hopeless and 0-3 before the change. Besides, noone expected VY to play this year, QBs have learning curves. Still, without knowing much about the pro game, he makes Tenn a more competitive team. I don't think Tenn would take any rookie over him--including Mr Bush, I'll tell you that.


Tenn maybe, but the rest of the NFL I don't think so.

BTW, RBs have learning curves too. It is quite possible, especially since he is backing up Deuce, that Bush will be better later. You want to give VY every benefit of the doubt but not Bush. Why, because you are biased.

Bottom line- I hope Bush and VY are busts and Mario is the next Reggie White.

[msn]

Bottom line- I hope Bush and VY are busts and Mario is the next Reggie White.
I hope all three are great. I hope they go into the Hall of Fame. I hope Super Mario's Texans punks their asses every time he plays them. :D :D

[msn]

Dont tell that this crap that he has played well this year.
OK, I won't. But he has.

[thegary]

didn't see this posted, from today's new york times:

Texans’ Carr Is an Enigma in Search of Consistency
By THAYER EVANS
Published: November 1, 2006

HOUSTON, Oct. 31 — When the Houston Texans selected David Carr as the top pick of the 2002 draft and the franchise’s first selection, he was supposed to be the cornerstone of the National Football League’s most recent expansion team.

Now into his fifth year as the team’s starting quarterback, Carr’s tenure has been troubled. He has been sacked 228 times, and his miscues have led to frequent booing by Texans fans, even those who wear his No. 8 jersey to home games.

Houston (2-5) has tried to build its offense around Carr, surrounding him with wide receivers Eric Moulds and Andre Johnson, the league’s leader in receptions and receiving yards, and running back Domanick Davis, who has not played this season because of injury. But the Texans’ game Sunday against the Giants (5-2) at Giants Stadium could be something of a crossroads for both the team and for Carr, a starter in 66 of the franchise’s 71 regular-season games.

During Houston’s 28-22 loss on the road to the Tennessee Titans last Sunday, Carr was benched early in the third quarter after his third turnover. His replacement, Sage Rosenfels, rallied the team by throwing for 186 yards and tying a team record with three touchdown passes.

The loss was particularly bitter for Texans fans, many of whom were displeased when the team, in April’s draft, passed over tailback Reggie Bush and quarterback Vince Young, a native Houstonian who led Texas to last season’s national championship.

The Texans selected defensive end Mario Williams with the No. 1 pick, and paid Carr an $8 million bonus to keep him through 2008. His opposing starting quarterback last Sunday was Young, who ran for a touchdown and threw for another.

“It means something to me, my family and all the fans back home in Houston,” Young said after the game.

Charlie Casserly, the Texans’ general manager who selected both Williams and Carr, remained adamant that the team made the right decisions. Before the loss to Tennessee, Casserly said Carr had been playing well this season. In a telephone interview, Casserly, now a studio analyst for CBS, said: “There’s no regrets at all. Zero at all. Absolutely not.”

Rosenfels’s impressive performance against the Titans continued the strong play he has displayed all season. Still, Gary Kubiak, the Texans’ first-year coach, announced that Carr would be the starter against the Giants.

“I’m going back to David because I know he’s the best thing for our football team,” Kubiak said Monday at a news conference. Indicating that the franchise was still committed to Carr, Kubiak added that Carr’s “growth process and his leadership and the type of player he becomes is what’s important to the Houston Texans and this franchise. I’m going to do everything I can to make him the best possible football player he can be."

Statistically, Carr, a 6-foot-3, 216-pound Fresno State product, is having his best season as a professional. He is completing an N.F.L.-best 70.5 percent of his attempts and has a quarterback rating of 94.3, which ranks sixth in the league.

He has thrown for 1,330 yards, with 9 touchdowns and 5 interceptions. He has also lost five fumbles, tied for the league lead. In his last four games, Carr has had seven turnovers. For his career, he has more interceptions (58) than touchdown passes (57).

“There’s confidence that I have to rebuild within myself going out there and making plays for the team and just realize that I’m not going to turn the ball over like that for them,” Carr said Monday in the Texans’ locker room.

His mistakes have hurt Houston in turnover margin; the team is tied for last in the N.F.L. at minus-9. But the two victories this season equal last year’s total.

Still, far more was expected from Kubiak in aiding Carr’s development — especially reducing his propensity for turnovers. Kubiak, a Houston native and the Denver Broncos’ offensive coordinator for 11 seasons, was hired by the Texans in January to replace Dom Capers and revamp the N.F.L.’s worst team last season.

A highly regarded offensive tactician who coached Steve Young and John Elway, Kubiak is credited with the maturation of Broncos quarterback Jake Plummer, whose play was often erratic before he signed with Denver in 2003.

Although Carr and Plummer both have strong arms and are capable runners, the two are different players, Kubiak said. He said that Carr was progressing, and insisted he was not disappointed in him.

“I think he’s done some real good things for a guy that’s going through this system for the first time,” Kubiak said. “How far did I expect him to go at this point? A long way, because the quicker he grows up and the quicker he becomes a great player, then the faster this football team can become a good, solid football team. So we have a ways to go. He’s not there yet. None of us are there. And we’re going to keep pushing to get him there.”

Gil Brandt, an analyst for NFL.com and a former Cowboys vice president of player personnel, said he was befuddled by Carr’s continued inconsistency, but said he believed Carr could still be a successful quarterback for a talent-rich team.

“I think maybe sometimes a guy doesn’t have the tenacity or is too nice a guy to really play to his capabilities,” Brandt said in a telephone interview. “He’s an enigma to me.”

Regardless, Texans tight end Mark Bruener said the team remained confident in Carr.

“His body language has really showed that he has not lost confidence in himself,” Bruener said. “I really think that he’s going to go out there Sunday and perform at the level that he’s performed at the previous games prior to Tennessee in the first half.”

For Carr, Sunday’s game in a hostile environment could be a step toward establishing himself as a quarterback. It could also be a big step for Kubiak, who is searching for his first road victory as an N.F.L. head coach.

“If you point a finger, there are always three of them pointing right back at you,” Kubiak said. “So it starts with me, and I have to do a better job.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/sports/football/01texans.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

[updawg]

How does Casserly's dumbass still keep popping up.

[Summer Song Giver]

How does Casserly's dumbass still keep popping up.

100% agree with that.

also it mentions David's affect on the turnover margin but our craptastic secondary is more to blame for that.

/see i can say nice things about DC

[pgabriel]

Tenn maybe, but the rest of the NFL I don't think so.

BTW, RBs have learning curves too. It is quite possible, especially since he is backing up Deuce, that Bush will be better later. You want to give VY every benefit of the doubt but not Bush. Why, because you are biased.

Bottom line- I hope Bush and VY are busts and Mario is the next Reggie White.


are you seriously arguing that running backs have a learning curve equal to qbs. vince doesn't need the benfit of the doubt, he's 2-2 as a starter as a rookie, some qbs don't even get to start as rookies, and he's a reason why they win.

I know he only threw for 87 yard, that's what really counts. the thing I find funniest is that some of you guys still hanging on to bush should have gone ahead of young argued up and down that bush was more nfl ready because he is a back. bottom line, the guy has one td, on a punt return. he's behind vy, williams, and lienart.

[KingCheetah]

Can you even imagine what Vince Young could do if he had Andre Johnson and Eric Moulds to throw to!? :eek:

[Summer Song Giver]

Can you even imagine what Vince Young could do if he had Andre Johnson and Eric Moulds to throw to!? :eek:


King I'd like to introduce you to this horse, i know it's dead but you seem like the type who will still enjoy playing with it.

[msn]

Can you even imagine what Vince Young could do if he had Andre Johnson and Eric Moulds to throw to!? :eek:
Complete 50% of his passes? You have to have an accurate arm, even if you're throwing to Jerry Rice and Tim Smith and Steve Largent in their primes.

[KingCheetah]

King I'd like to introduce you to this horse, i know it's dead but you seem like the type who will still enjoy playing with it.



/snicker

[Mr. Clutch]

are you seriously arguing that running backs have a learning curve equal to qbs. vince doesn't need the benfit of the doubt, he's 2-2 as a starter as a rookie, some qbs don't even get to start as rookies, and he's a reason why they win.

I know he only threw for 87 yard, that's what really counts. the thing I find funniest is that some of you guys still hanging on to bush should have gone ahead of young argued up and down that bush was more nfl ready because he is a back. bottom line, the guy has one td, on a punt return. he's behind vy, williams, and lienart.

I didnt argue RBs have an equal learning curve, Im saying they do have learning curves, and that when they are backup to studs, it could take even longer.

[Mr. Clutch]

Can you even imagine what Vince Young could do if he had Andre Johnson and Eric Moulds to throw to!? :eek:

Well he does have Bennet and Givens, who are not complete crap a la Bradford and Gaffney. Also, he has a pretty good runninggame for help.

[SamFisher]

Well he does have Bennet and Givens, who are not complete crap a la Bradford and Gaffney. Also, he has a pretty good runninggame for help.

Givens is the third wideout, they start Bobby Wade and Drew Bennett. if not "complete crap", they are definitely a bottom tier combo and rank among the very worst in the league. If you saw Wade drop a late in the game TD pass on 3rd down vs. Indy that would have put the Titans up 2 scores, you would agree with this.

[Mr. Clutch]

Givens is the third wideout, they start Bobby Wade and Drew Bennett. if not "complete crap", I'd be hard pressed to find a worse 1-2 receiver combo anywhere in the league.

Bradford and Gafney definitely qualifed the years they started. I dont think they are playing anymore, not in the NFL anyways.

[Desert Scar]

Here are some tidbits:

Passing Stats
Player Att Comp Yds Comp % Yds/Att TD TD % INT INT % Long Sack/Lost Rating
Vince Young 114 54 599 47.4 5.3 4 3.5 4 3.5 28 6/15 60.5
Kerry Collins 90 42 549 46.7 6.1 1 1.1 6 6.7 36 4/23 42.3

But also consider this:
Rushing Stats
Player No Yds Avg Long TD
Vince Young 25 123 4.9 20 2
Kerry Collins 0 0 0 0

Record and points:
KC 0-3, 33 scored, 76 given up VERSUS teams with a 10-12 record.
VY 2-2, 80 scored, 103 given up VERSUS teams with a 15-13 record.

So if nothing else with VY at the helm his offense has been far more productive in points and less error prone than when a 12 year NFL starter has played. I don't think anyone thought VY would be playing by week 8 at all, let alone doing some good things for his team.

[rhino17]

Bradford and Gafney definitely qualifed the years they started. I dont think they are playing anymore, not in the NFL anyways.

Gaffney is on the Patriots and Bradford was cut a couple weeks ago by Detroit

[Mr. Clutch]

Gaffney is on the Patriots and Bradford was cut a couple weeks ago by Detroit

Yeah he is, has 1 catch for 4 yards.

[rhino17]

I didnt argue RBs have an equal learning curve, Im saying they do have learning curves, and that when they are backup to studs, it could take even longer.

Mant rookie running backs do not have learning curves:

Clinton Portis: 1508 yds
Edge James: 1553 yds
Curtis Martin: 1487 yds
Jamal Lewis: 1364 yds
Marshall Faulk: 1282 yds

All these are from their rookie seasons

[Mr. Clutch]

Mant rookie running backs do not have learning curves:

Clinton Portis: 1508 yds
Edge James: 1553 yds
Curtis Martin: 1487 yds
Jamal Lewis: 1364 yds
Marshall Faulk: 1282 yds

All these are from their rookie seasons

Many don't, some do. Too early to call Bush a bust at this point.