David Carr should be traded..........

[Bag0b0y]

to whichever desperate team is in need of a qb. Hopefully we could salvage a first rounder before tuesday's trade deadline. This kid still has value so let's get a high draft pick.

It's clear to me he can't get it done here. It's too late. He's been traumatized by the first 4 years being on this team and losing has become a habit for him. Give him up and move on.


It's time for the face of the franchise to be replaced. Mario Williams is clearly not his replacement so it's time to overhaul this laughingstock of a franchise and aquire fresh blood that does not know anything about the losing history of the Texans. FIVE YEARS of not even smelling the playoffs is ridiculous. They're so bad CBS has been switching to other games by half time to revive ratings due to Texans games. :mad: :mad: :mad:

I think David Carr is destined for glory if not greatness, just not with the Texans.

[JBIIRockets]

not a good thread title.

[robbie380]

mods please change this stupid thread title

[Desert Scar]

As a Boys fan I'd gladly take him for Bledsoe and our 2007 1st.

It would have been better last year when you could have taken VY with your own pick and used picks from Dallas for other needs. But oh well, the Texans may still be in the right direction, as well as the Cowboys.

[kaleidosky]

idiotic thread title. obviously you were trying to incite something

[percicles]

You guys remeber that old Carr vs. Harrington debate????? Bring it back. Harrington led the Dolphins to within a fieldgoal of tying the game after being down 3-20 in the 4th qtr. Joey boy threw for 200yds and a 2 TD's in the fourth qtr and they rarely ran the ball.

[pradaxpimp]

i'm about to trade the mfer who started this thread to whatever forums need a yackass.

[rrj_gamz]

I wish...Ok, I saw him in person and man, ever game he starts off good, and then nothing...The D is atrocious and honestly, I'm not sure Carr is the answer...

[Brando2101]

What are you guys talking about?

Carr is having a great year. He isn't making stupid mistakes that lead to sacks.
He has a great %.

Do you know how hard it is to do well in the air once you give up on the ground? Before you start thinking about kicking him out, give him a fair shot by getting a decent RB to balance the offense.

[VesceySux]

You guys remeber that old Carr vs. Harrington debate????? Bring it back. Harrington led the Dolphins to within a fieldgoal of tying the game after being down 3-20 in the 4th qtr. Joey boy threw for 200yds and a 2 TD's in the fourth qtr and they rarely ran the ball.

Are you being serious? Let's compare the 2005 stats:

Harrington: 188-330, 12 TDs, 12 INTs, 2,021 yards, 57% completion, 72.0 rating
Carr: 256-423, 14 TDs, 11 INTs, 2,488 yards, 60.5% completion, 77.2 rating

Plus, Harrington had a ridiculous amount of talent around him with the Lions, while Carr had absolutely nothing, including zero protection. Harrington's ass got run out of Detroit... and for good reason. Carr had his option picked up.

[Angle02]

Are you being serious? Let's compare the 2005 stats:

Harrington: 188-330, 12 TDs, 12 INTs, 2,021 yards, 57% completion, 72.0 rating
Carr: 256-423, 14 TDs, 11 INTs, 2,488 yards, 60.5% completion, 77.2 rating

Plus, Harrington had a ridiculous amount of talent around him with the Lions, while Carr had absolutely nothing, including zero protection. Harrington's ass got run out of Detroit... and for good reason. Carr had his option picked up.

Yeah the Lions did have a lot of talent. But I guess that talent never showed up for Harrington considering their record while he was there.

[Uprising]

i'm about to trade the mfer who started this thread to whatever forums need a yackass.

I hear ya.



Don't expect anythign from the QB position till we get a running game....

Carr has not been a problem for this team.

[gr8-1]

Honestly, I think Carr has been serviceable this year and Mario looks like he has potential. Now, I don't know if it was a good idea to pass on VY, but time will tell. How old is Carr?

[Uprising]

Forget Young. I'm not upset about not taking Young. I'm kind of upset about not taking BUSH considering we have NO running game.

Hmmm....Adrian Peterson in a Texans Jersey looks soooooooooo nice.

[Nick]

Dunta and AJ had bad games as well today... Mario may just be the best first round pick this team has ever had.

[ima_drummer2k]

What are you guys talking about?

Carr is having a great year. He isn't making stupid mistakes that lead to sacks.
He has a great %.
You've been on this bbs long enough to know that if a player has a bad game, it's time to trade him.

[tierre_brown]

Yeah the Lions did have a lot of talent. But I guess that talent never showed up for Harrington considering their record while he was there.

Or MAYBE Harrington just sucked so much it didn't matter if that talent did show up...

[rezdawg]

Forget Young. I'm not upset about not taking Young. I'm kind of upset about not taking BUSH considering we have NO running game.


Bush wouldnt improve our running game.

[VesceySux]

Or MAYBE Harrington just sucked so much it didn't matter if that talent did show up...

Exactly. Harrington = bust

[H-Town Info]

Bush wouldnt improve our running game.

agreed. most of the houston texans run plays are b/t the tackles. right now, bush can't even do well b/t in the new orleans so how can he be great in houston.

[DonnyMost]

ban this idiot forever. please.

[SwoLy-D]

Bag0Boy traded..........

To another BBS. :mad:

STEWPID thread, man. Where are the LOCKS? :mad:

[percicles]

Exactly. Harrington = bust

Dude, if Carr gets a clean slate this season I think Harrington should as well. Based on that Harrington showed more heart, leadership. and poise in 1 qtr than Carr has this entire season. Actually wasn't he benched today for quitting ?????

[nigma2000]

Taking VY, Bush, or an OT would not have helped. To tell u the truth I bet u even if this team had the 1st pick four years in a row we would still be terrible, this team has so many holes, I don't even know where they should start. After what, 6 top draft picks, look how long it took the Bengals to finally get on the right track. It looks like we are in for a decade of mediocrity folks.

[timwalters]

im probably gonna get hated for this, but i like Tony Romo,Vince Young. I also think Harrington is a clone of carr...dont use stats..im watching the games and Harrington just seems to be like carr, some physical tools but not the mind...reminds me of carr

[rhino17]

Bush wouldnt improve our running game.


is that a joke?
There is no way he could be doing any worse that what Dayne did today (14yrds on the ground). He may not be tearing it up but i'm sure he would have been a huge improvement over what we already have

[Angle02]

Taking VY, Bush, or an OT would not have helped. To tell u the truth I bet u even if this team had the 1st pick four years in a row we would still be terrible, this team has so many holes, I don't even know where they should start. After what, 6 top draft picks, look how long it took the Bengals to finally get on the right track. It looks like we are in for a decade of mediocrity folks.

Thats the problem. Everyone is looking at the draft to solve the holes. Rookies will be rookies and make rookie mistakes. You have to look into FA to fill your holes. One good offseason and your team could easily turn themselves around.

[rocketfat]

i don't think any of you carr supporters have any understanding of the fact that it possible for a quarterback to be talented enough to keep his team competitive and in games despite the "lack of skill" of the rest of his team. david carr is nowhere close to being that level of qb. he is garbage people. he cannot win games, he cannot make plays, he cannot make things happen. i do not care what stats you want to throw out. the results speak for themselves. i dont understand how many more years you people can defend him. it's his 5th FCKING year for crying out loud and he hasn't shown a glimpse in ONE SINGLE GAME of being able to carry a team.

give it up people. david carr is a worthless quarterback.

[rhino17]

i don't think any of you carr supporters have any understanding of the fact that it possible for a quarterback to be talented enough to keep his team competitive and in games despite the "lack of skill" of the rest of his team. david carr is nowhere close to being that level of qb. he is garbage people. he cannot win games, he cannot make plays, he cannot make things happen. i do not care what stats you want to throw out. the results speak for themselves. i dont understand how many more years you people can defend him. it's his 5th FCKING year for crying out loud and he hasn't shown a glimpse in ONE SINGLE GAME of being able to carry a team.

give it up people. david carr is a worthless quarterback.


I agree. People are still treating him like he is a ROOKIE, but he is not. This is his fifth year in the NFL. If he has not gotten it by now, he isnt going to. You are right, it is possible for a quarterback to to carry a team withou much talent. Look at Tom Brady last year, lookat his recievers, look how old and useless Corey dillon was last year. Now look at the Texans, they had/have better recievers, and DD was better than Dillon last year. Brady's O-Line was severley depleted with multiple injuries, yet he still brought his team into the playoffs, almost single-handedly.

[Nice Rollin]

i agree. while people still think he's a decent qb. dont make the same mistake as the astros and lidge

[Rocket River]

Yeah the Lions did have a lot of talent. But I guess that talent never showed up for Harrington considering their record while he was there.


What is their Talented record now that he is gone?

Rocket River

[Rocket River]

Dude, if Carr gets a clean slate this season I think Harrington should as well. Based on that Harrington showed more heart, leadership. and poise in 1 qtr than Carr has this entire season. Actually wasn't he benched today for quitting ?????

I think had Dom BENCHED him more early on . . . it would have helped him
Carr has never been challenged. . he ALWAYS knew he would start
the very idea of him competing for his job was foreign around here
he needed someone on the bench to push him

Rocket River

[Angle02]

i don't think any of you carr supporters have any understanding of the fact that it possible for a quarterback to be talented enough to keep his team competitive and in games despite the "lack of skill" of the rest of his team. david carr is nowhere close to being that level of qb. he is garbage people. he cannot win games, he cannot make plays, he cannot make things happen. i do not care what stats you want to throw out. the results speak for themselves. i dont understand how many more years you people can defend him. it's his 5th FCKING year for crying out loud and he hasn't shown a glimpse in ONE SINGLE GAME of being able to carry a team.

give it up people. david carr is a worthless quarterback.

I'd take David Carr over Drew Bledsoe anyday. His throws weren't off (if they were not by much) today. He did good avoiding the pass rush. He cant help that the rest of his team isn't picking up their part. There has always been a big hole in the Texans O.

[Angle02]

What is their Talented record now that he is gone?

Rocket River

Just the same as before. Still a talentless team.

[VesceySux]

Dude, if Carr gets a clean slate this season I think Harrington should as well. Based on that Harrington showed more heart, leadership. and poise in 1 qtr than Carr has this entire season. Actually wasn't he benched today for quitting ?????

Okay, slate is clean. Prior to today's game (ESPN's stats haven't updated yet), Harrington has played in one game, throwing 0 TDs and 2 INTs with a 58.2 rating. Carr has started 4 games, throwing 7 TDs and 2 INTs with a 108.9 rating. Harrington > Carr??? I don't see it.

[Uprising]

Bush wouldnt improve our running game.

Maybe not, because of our run schemes. We get shut down everytime running up the middle. We should give up on that. Our line can't keep the defenders where we need them, and there are NEVER holes.

I like Mario (and he had a good game). But man, if someone was going to tell me that DD would be out the entire season. I would have preferred Bush.

[tinman]

Yeah the Lions did have a lot of talent. But I guess that talent never showed up for Harrington considering their record while he was there.
did you ever watch any of the Lions game when Harrington was QB? he was over throwing wide receivers who are 6'5'' and could jump like michael jordan!

it was clearly Harrington's fault, he's not very accurate. he has a decent arm tho.

[Luckyazn]

i don't think any of you carr supporters have any understanding of the fact that it possible for a quarterback to be talented enough to keep his team competitive and in games despite the "lack of skill" of the rest of his team. david carr is nowhere close to being that level of qb. he is garbage people. he cannot win games, he cannot make plays, he cannot make things happen. i do not care what stats you want to throw out. the results speak for themselves. i dont understand how many more years you people can defend him. it's his 5th FCKING year for crying out loud and he hasn't shown a glimpse in ONE SINGLE GAME of being able to carry a team.

give it up people. david carr is a worthless quarterback.


I dont know why so many people keep on defending CARR? So if the team sucks is always the OL? or the D'fense? but never CARR? the main focus of a team? ..... The GUY CAN"T LEAD!! us to any wins yeaaah our Dfense sucks but 6pts????


Harrington = BUST
Carr = BUST for #1 pick

[Luckyazn]

I dont know why so many people keep on defending CARR? So if the team sucks is always the OL? or the D'fense? but never CARR? the main focus of a team? ..... The GUY CAN"T LEAD!! us to any wins yeaaah our Dfense sucks but 6pts????


Harrington = BUST
Carr = BUST for #1 pick


Leading a team to a win is what VY did today in Washington, I think TENN has alot less talents than us .... ooh can't wait till Tenn comes to Houston

[Fegwu]

The thesis imho is sound.

Trading Carr now idea will be because of the reasons of past years. Carr is a solid NFL QB and we are lucky we have one unlike a good number of other teams in the league.

The key here is REBUILDING. Kubiak can say all the good things but the fact remains that we are or at least should be in a rebuilding mode. The Casserly/Dom experiment fell short. We lack talent seriously. Trading Carr to a desperate team will give us an opportunity to break the clay and remold.

It is about selling high. Can Carr's stock be any higher? I doubt it. The last this we want if for the fate that befell Ensberge and Lidge to befall Carr (acute value depreciation). Carr deserves an opportunity to play for a winning team - we are at least 2 years away from even thinking of having a winning season talkless of becoming a "winning team".

I do not know how the salary cap will be affect by such a proposal but for what it is worth, I do not see this happening before Tuesday (maybe off season).

[rhino17]

The thesis imho is sound.

Trading Carr now idea will be because of the reasons of past years. Carr is a solid NFL QB and we are lucky we have one unlike a good number of other teams in the league.

The key here is REBUILDING. Kubiak can say all the good things but the fact remains that we are or at least should be in a rebuilding mode. The Casserly/Dom experiment fell short. We lack talent seriously. Trading Carr to a desperate team will give us an opportunity to break the clay and remold.

It is about selling high. Can Carr's stock be any higher? I doubt it. The last this we want if for the fate that befell Ensberge and Lidge to befall Carr (acute value depreciation). Carr deserves an opportunity to play for a winning team - we are at least 2 years away from even thinking of having a winning season talkless of becoming a "winning team".

I do not know how the salary cap will be affect by such a proposal but for what it is worth, I do not see this happening before Tuesday (maybe off season).


The point is, Carr cannot be on winning team if he does not have good/great players around him. I think other teams around the league know this. They would not want to trade for a guy with ABSOLUTLY NO LEADERSHIP SKILLS.

[tinman]

Leading a team to a win is what VY did today in Washington, I think TENN has alot less talents than us .... ooh can't wait till Tenn comes to Houston

Titans WR: Bobby Wade and Drew Bennet
Texans WR: Andre Johnson and Eric Moulds

[Francis3422]

I am a big Cowboys fan, and I would trade Bledsoe and our 2nd and 3rd. Maybe with another 3rd. But no way do you give up a first rounder for David Carr. Even picking 23 or 24, you still get to fill a need, and I like Tony Romo. Lets let him try, maybe this year more likely next.

[Baqui99]

David Carr is a mediocre QB at best. What's the point of comparing him to Joey Harrington? If you really want to make Carr look good, why not compare him to Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Ryan Leaf, or Heath Shuler?

[ima_drummer2k]

Okay, slate is clean. Prior to today's game (ESPN's stats haven't updated yet), Harrington has played in one game, throwing 0 TDs and 2 INTs with a 58.2 rating. Carr has started 4 games, throwing 7 TDs and 2 INTs with a 108.9 rating. Harrington > Carr??? I don't see it.
Yes, but Carr had a bad game yesterday and Harrington had a decent one. Quit throwing those stats (facts) into the argument. Stats (facts) don't mean anything. We're 1-4 and even though we have nothing even RESEMBLING a running game, no run defense, no pass defense, fumbling kick returners, etc. it's all David Carr's fault!!!!!!!!

DAVID CARR SUX!!!!!!!!!11111!!!! :mad: :mad:

[emjohn]

is that a joke?
There is no way he could be doing any worse that what Dayne did today (14yrds on the ground). He may not be tearing it up but i'm sure he would have been a huge improvement over what we already have
Bush yesterday: 11 carries, 25 yds.
Dayne yesterday: 10 carries, 15 yds.

Bush would be a 167% improvement!!!

Bush on the year: 65 carries, 195 yds (32.5 yds/g)
Dayne on the year 57 carries, 167 yds (41.8 yds/g)

Bush has been good for 28 more yards!!!

With Bush on our team at a reasonable $26 million guaranteed, we wouldn't have the running problems that we do today. Clearly. ROY!!!*

:rolleyes:

*assuming his teammate doesn't get it instead.

[MadMax]

I'll take the middle ground here:

1. david carr needs to be replaced;

2. but if you don't make changes elswhere, as well, it won't matter.


On one hand some of you are throwing everything at Carr's feet. That's ridiculous. This whole team sucks.

On the other hand, some of you are defending Carr because everyone else sucks. The guy is approaching 4.5 years in. I haven't seen enough to convince me he's the guy. Frankly, I think he's limiting our options at this point. I'd move on.

[rhino17]

Bush yesterday: 11 carries, 25 yds.
Dayne yesterday: 10 carries, 15 yds.

Bush would be a 167% improvement!!!

Bush on the year: 65 carries, 195 yds (32.5 yds/g)
Dayne on the year 57 carries, 167 yds (41.8 yds/g)

Bush has been good for 28 more yards!!!

With Bush on our team at a reasonable $26 million guaranteed, we wouldn't have the running problems that we do today. Clearly. ROY!!!*

:rolleyes:

*assuming his teammate doesn't get it instead.


Bush is also a #2 running back right now and he is not taking the majority of carries, Dayne is a STARTER

[ima_drummer2k]

Frankly, I think he's limiting our options at this point. I'd move on.
What do you mean by "move on"? Draft another QB and risk another 5 years of not living up to potential? Start Sage?

Is David Carr the next Joe Montana? Of course not. Is he living up to being the #1 overall draft pick? Of course not. In hindsight should we have taken a QB at #1? I don't think so.

But at this point, is there a better alternative? I don't think so. Too many other holes to fill. Carr has been serviceable this year. Has the O-line been serviceable? Has the defensive secondary been serviceable? Has the D-line been serviceable? Have our RB's been serviceable? No, no, no, and no.

QB is so far down the totem pole as far as needs go for this team. That's the only reason I "defend" Carr.

[The Cat]

i don't think any of you carr supporters have any understanding of the fact that it possible for a quarterback to be talented enough to keep his team competitive and in games despite the "lack of skill" of the rest of his team. david carr is nowhere close to being that level of qb. he is garbage people. he cannot win games, he cannot make plays, he cannot make things happen. i do not care what stats you want to throw out. the results speak for themselves. i dont understand how many more years you people can defend him. it's his 5th FCKING year for crying out loud and he hasn't shown a glimpse in ONE SINGLE GAME of being able to carry a team.

give it up people. david carr is a worthless quarterback.

No quarterbacks win games by themselves, so it's pretty hard to take the rest of it seriously. Winning and losing games is the product of 53 players working together on Sundays and a cumulative product, not the skillset of one individual player. Sorry. You name me some of these quarterbacks who have kept their team competitive and in games with poor talent, and then let's compare that talent to the Texans. While it might be somewhat true, it's true to an extent. It doesn't always work that way, and the Texans have an overall talent level right now that Joe Montana or Brett Favre in their primes couldn't elevate.

[The Cat]

On one hand some of you are throwing everything at Carr's feet. That's ridiculous. This whole team sucks.

On the other hand, some of you are defending Carr because everyone else sucks. The guy is approaching 4.5 years in. I haven't seen enough to convince me he's the guy. Frankly, I think he's limiting our options at this point. I'd move on.

Has there ever been a point within those 4.5 years that the whole team didn't suck? That's why I think it's so ridiculous to make judgments.

[MadMax]

What do you mean by "move on"? Draft another QB and risk another 5 years of not living up to potential? Start Sage?

Is David Carr the next Joe Montana? Of course not. Is he living up to being the #1 overall draft pick? Of course not. In hindsight should we have taken a QB at #1? I don't think so.

But at this point, is there a better alternative? I don't think so. Too many other holes to fill. Carr has been serviceable this year. Has the O-line been serviceable? Has the defensive secondary been serviceable? Has the D-line been serviceable? Have our RB's been serviceable? No, no, no, and no.

QB is so far down the totem pole as far as needs go for this team. That's the only reason I "defend" Carr.

Yeah...no QB's get drafted and come in and do well. It never happens. We should stick with David Carr, because there's no opportunity cost. There's just no way possible that anyone else, draftee or free agent, could come in and do any better. And since we're gonna have our big rebuilding year next season, and we think we are so capable of competing to win it all next year, we really oughta stick with David.

I agree with you this team has bigger problems to deal with. But Carr is part of the problem. He's the poster-boy of a failed culture. I don't want to see him be given a free pass after another losing season again. Not again.

[MadMax]

Has there ever been a point within those 4.5 years that the whole team didn't suck? That's why I think it's so ridiculous to make judgments.

Yeah...they've all sucked. So we should keep them all, then. I mean, after all, since they've all sucked, I don't wanna be unfair with any one of them.

Come on...this is pro sports. You get it done or you go somewhere else.

[Major]

What do you mean by "move on"? Draft another QB and risk another 5 years of not living up to potential? Start Sage?


There are always free agent QB's out there who can provide a steady hand - a Brad Johnson type. You go get one of those and see how the team does. There's nothing that says this team needs a young QB or needs to build around a QB at this point. Until you have seen the same team with a different QB, it's impossible to really say how much of it is the QB vs all the other talent around him.

[ima_drummer2k]

Yeah...no QB's get drafted and come in and do well. It never happens. We should stick with David Carr, because there's no opportunity cost. There's just no way possible that anyone else, draftee or free agent, could come in and do any better. And since we're gonna have our big rebuilding year next season, and we think we are so capable of competing to win it all next year, we really oughta stick with David.

I agree with you this team has bigger problems to deal with. But Carr is part of the problem. He's the poster-boy of a failed culture. I don't want to see him be given a free pass after another losing season again. Not again.
Your first paragraph contradicts your secound paragraph. David Carr looked just as good if not better than Brady Quinn his senior year at Fresno. And don't tell me Fresno didn't play anybody, no one wanted to play Fresno.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into all this vauge "he's not a winner" talk. I just look at how he plays. He is one of the few bright spots on the team this year. You mentioned AJ and Moulds, but oddly enough didn't mention the guy who has been getting them the ball.

Again, I'm not saying Carr is the answer at QB for the next 10 years. But his play this year has been improved from crappy to serviceable. That's why you fill other needs before you fill the need at QB.

There are always free agent QB's out there who can provide a steady hand - a Brad Johnson type.
But Carr has been better than Brad Johnson this year. That's my point. Carr has been one of the few players on this team that has been serviceable this year.

Why is there not a thread saying we should trade AJ? Yes, he's having a good year like Carr, but AJ hasn't given us a winning season since he's been here. He's the poster-boy of a failed culture. I don't want to see him be given a free pass after another losing season again. Not again.

[MadMax]

Your first paragraph contradicts your secound paragraph. David Carr looked just as good if not better than Brady Quinn his senior year at Fresno. And don't tell me Fresno didn't play anybody, no one wanted to play Fresno.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into all this vauge "he's not a winner" talk. I just look at how he plays. He is one of the few bright spots on the team this year. You mentioned AJ and Moulds, but oddly enough didn't mention the guy who has been getting them the ball.

Again, I'm not saying Carr is the answer at QB for the next 10 years. But his play this year has been improved from crappy to serviceable. That's why you fill other needs before you fill the need at QB.

.

we'll agree to disagree then...because i wouldn't pass again on an opportunity to upgrade at QB in the midst of making other improvements to this team.

[thegary]

we'll agree to agree then...because the texans passed on an opportunity to upgrade at QB in the draft while not making other improvements to this team.

fixed it for ya











oh, and the amazin's won last night. just thought i'd let you know since you are not watching the series :p

[emjohn]

Bush is also a #2 running back right now and he is not taking the majority of carries, Dayne is a STARTER
How's that explain:
Bush: 3 yds/carry
Dayne: 2.9 yds/carry

Or do #2 RBs not get the #1 O-Line either?

No matter how you cut it, or if you simply watch the plays, Bush has been INEFFECTIVE as a RUNNING back. He's been good as a dump route third reciever. He dances L-R and gets eaten. Deuce can blast throw a line, and that's why he's still the #1 back in NO.

Evan

[jopatmc]

How's that explain:
Bush: 3 yds/carry
Dayne: 2.9 yds/carry

Or do #2 RBs not get the #1 O-Line either?

No matter how you cut it, or if you simply watch the plays, Bush has been INEFFECTIVE as a RUNNING back. He's been good as a dump route third reciever. He dances L-R and gets eaten. Deuce can blast throw a line, and that's why he's still the #1 back in NO.

Evan


It sure would have been nice if we could have conned New Orleans out of Deuce and the #2 pick in exchange for the #1 pick.

[rocketlaunch]

Bush is also a #2 running back right now and he is not taking the majority of carries, Dayne is a STARTER


well our #2 (samkon)avgs 2.7 a carry... Reggie may be the 2nd rb but he is on the field the same amount as a starter. He is struggling especially at rb. He looks good as a wr but not a rb.

[SamFisher]

I agree with you this team has bigger problems to deal with. But Carr is part of the problem. He's the poster-boy of a failed culture. I don't want to see him be given a free pass after another losing season again. Not again.

Sing it Max!

http://i9.tinypic.com/2qs0zfl.jpg

[jopatmc]

well our #2 (samkon)avgs 2.7 a carry... Reggie may be the 2nd rb but he is on the field the same amount as a starter. He is struggling especially at rb. He looks good as a wr but not a rb.

Just imagine what he would look like here. With our opponents sitting back waiting for the pass and no legit running game to take the heat off the pass.

[A-Train]

It's too bad the Texans beat the Dolphins. Another season of "can we go 0-16" threads would be a lot more entertaining than another season of "Trade Carr" threads...

[tierre_brown]

Leading a team to a win is what VY did today in Washington, I think TENN has alot less talents than us .... ooh can't wait till Tenn comes to Houston

The Titans have more talent at the RB position (remember what they did against Indy?) and thus less pressure on VY to force the issue. Plus, I believe their defense is stouter than ours is. Leading a team to a win is great...but let's not discount the 174 yards of rushing Travis Henry got.

Look, I'm not a DC apologist. I just think that he's the one player on our so-called team that is actually worth a damn. Even Dunta Robinson (can't cover anyone to save his life) and AJ (dropped passes are his forte) aren't particularly bright spots this year.

[JeopardE]

ROFL, how predictable. David Carr has his first bad game of the season and a 4-page Trade Carr thread has already shown up.

Posters on this BBS are more fickle than a firefly in a full moon.

[MadMax]

ROFL, how predictable. David Carr has his first bad game of the season and a 4-page Trade Carr thread has already shown up.

Posters on this BBS are more fickle than a firefly in a full moon.

Yeah. Clearly we need more time to assess David. After 4.5 years, we just don't know enough.

[bottlerocket]

Carr is not the issue.

Issues:

1) no running game

2) no pass/run blocking

3) Defense- secondary sux, with exception of #23

4) Defense - No pass rush

[H-Town Info]

i don't get why is everyone is bashing carr already after one bad game. while u r at bashing qbs, u should bash matt hasselback for 2 of his bad games this season against arizona and the bears and byron leftwich against the colts this season. this is the nfl, nobody is perfect every week. there's going to be some good games and bad games. i'm not a carr lover or carr basher but i look at things on both sides. imo, carr is going to bounce back. right now, i'm sad about the texans, very sad. But, i'm more sad about my fellow fans who are sounding like new york city fans or something. One bad game by Carr and people calling for his head on a silver platter. Thats what makes me sick to my stomach more than texans losing b/c people just don't take time to evaluate it.

i knew the texans were going to suck and i bet it's going be worse before it gets better. This team has a lot of holes to fill. The previous regime just screwed up the whole franchise and kubiak and company is going to clean it up. i believe kubiak has the ability to fix things but its going to take a few years unfortunately. I know the former oilers fans are tired of losing but this is a new regime, new systems, and everything.

[MadMax]

Do you guys think people are JUST NOW coming to conclusions about David Carr?

[H-Town Info]

and i meant one bad game this season.

[ima_drummer2k]

Do you guys think people are JUST NOW coming to conclusions about David Carr?
Of course not. It just funny how a thread like this didn't appear until his first bad game of the season.

Do you think Carr has been better this year than he has his first 4 years?

[MadMax]

Of course not. It just funny how a thread like this didn't appear until his first bad game of the season.

Do you think Carr has been better this year than he has his first 4 years?

no. i think he was at his best in the first half of his 3rd season. i think he's been better than he was last year. but i don't buy into passer ratings.

[rocketfan83]

The only way I trade Carr is if he wants to be traded.

He's played his butt off got his butt kicked for 4.5 years...

This season is a wash and more than likely next year is too.

So he will be entering his 7th year in the league before he even has a competive team. Thats alot to ask for somebody of his talent.

So if he wants to be gone I think we kind of owe him that so he can savage his carreer somewhere else....

But just football wise trading Carr makes no sense at all to me. I can't even fathom what the offense would look like w/o him or Andre.

[H-Town Info]

and u so called texans fans got to remember there's a such thing as a SALARY CAP. if the texans did trade carr, the texans will eat some good amt of dead cap money for trading carr. the first thing you think about when u r trading in the NFL is whats the f'n CAP RAMIFICATIONS. So pretty much, Carr is stuck here for better or for worse.

[ima_drummer2k]

but i don't buy into passer ratings.
Well, if you don't base improvement on stats, I don't know what else to say. What DO you base it on? Strictly wins? If so, should we get rid of AJ too? We're 10-38 since drafting him.

[H-Town Info]

Well, if you don't base improvement on stats, I don't know what else to say. What DO you base it on? Strictly wins? If so, should we get rid of AJ too? We're 10-38 since drafting him.

also moulds, DRob, Demeco, Mario. Lets get rid of them as well while we are at b/c we suck with them. i don't what to say anymore.

[MadMax]

Well, if you don't base improvement on stats, I don't know what else to say. What DO you base it on? Strictly wins? If so, should we get rid of AJ too? We're 10-38 since drafting him.

you can't look solely at stats. i'm not saying they don't help. but there are other things to study too. it's why scouts actually go out to watch guys play instead of just looking at the paper the next morning.

[rhester]

Vince Young will play in a Super Bowl
Before David Carr takes the Texans to the playoffs.

(pretty stupid assessment, but it sounded good :D )

[msn]

you can't look solely at stats. i'm not saying they don't help. but there are other things to study too. it's why scouts actually go out to watch guys play instead of just looking at the paper the next morning.
Do you have something to offer about what you've seen in Carr? How reads defenses, or his posture in the pocket, his timing, throws on target, etc? Do his receivers have to work twice as hard to catch his passes? All I've heard from people is "he's not a leader", which is pretty ridiculous for someone who's not in the locker room to say (no frame of reference).

Stats *aren't* everything (I think everyone knows where I stand on that!). So, what objective things have you observed about this QB that make you think he'll never turn the corner?

[MadMax]

Do you have something to offer about what you've seen in Carr? How reads defenses, or his posture in the pocket, his timing, throws on target, etc? Do his receivers have to work twice as hard to catch his passes? All I've heard from people is "he's not a leader", which is pretty ridiculous for someone who's not in the locker room to say (no frame of reference).

Stats *aren't* everything (I think everyone knows where I stand on that!). So, what objective things have you observed about this QB that make you think he'll never turn the corner?

Yes, I do. I think in 4.5 years, you get a pretty good idea. Stats have told that story for most of his career, msn...so if you want to start there, take out the first half of his 3rd season and take a look. Not real good. He was really good during that first half stretch in 2004. He looked like he was making progress. I don't see it anymore.

I don't like that he looks like he quits. I hate that, in fact. It's why Kubiak busted his ass about that recently, too.

i think a tornado is close...i'll post more later...bye.

[rhester]

Do you have something to offer about what you've seen in Carr? How reads defenses, or his posture in the pocket, his timing, throws on target, etc? Do his receivers have to work twice as hard to catch his passes? All I've heard from people is "he's not a leader", which is pretty ridiculous for someone who's not in the locker room to say (no frame of reference).

Stats *aren't* everything (I think everyone knows where I stand on that!). So, what objective things have you observed about this QB that make you think he'll never turn the corner?

He is not a playmaker. He doesn't read off blitzes very well, he does not have good timing on his throws. He has a very strong arm, but tends to wait too long on reads. He has made some very good throws this season, but still doesn't make big plays especially in the 2nd half of games. He needs to keep throwing to AJ even though he dropped some passes.

The biggest improvement I've seen this season is he is back looking to get AJ the ball.

He tends to lose his tight ends and he is a better playmaker with his primary receiver.

Keep going to AJ and he should have a decent season.

I would trade him straight up for Vince Young in a second.

[MadMax]

wow..this weather is crazy! i'm on the top floor of my building and it sounded like the roof was shaking. low steady rumble that concerned us. seems ok now, but rain is still coming down hard.

msn - i think rhester said it best. he didn't meet expectations. with the #1 pick, you're looking for a playmaker. we didn't get one. yeah, i know, i know. there are 1,000,000,000,000,000 reasons/excuses why not. seems like there's a new reason/excuse every week. and frankly, part of that grates on me with him, too. rocket river is right..he reminds me a lot of steve francis. a lot of nice things said. seems like a good guy. but it's the same old, same old over and over again.

[Angle02]

He is not a playmaker. He doesn't read off blitzes very well, he does not have good timing on his throws. He has a very strong arm, but tends to wait too long on reads. He has made some very good throws this season, but still doesn't make big plays especially in the 2nd half of games. He needs to keep throwing to AJ even though he dropped some passes.

The biggest improvement I've seen this season is he is back looking to get AJ the ball.

He tends to lose his tight ends and he is a better playmaker with his primary receiver.

Keep going to AJ and he should have a decent season.

I would trade him straight up for Vince Young in a second.

The way AJ was covered yesterday I dont think I would have thrown too many passes his way. AJ couldn't do anything yesterday with Henry covering him like a blanket.
You've got to spread the ball around anyways. It keeps the defense guessing.

[MadMax]

The way AJ was covered yesterday I dont think I would have thrown too many passes his way. AJ couldn't do anything yesterday with Henry covering him like a blanket.
You've got to spread the ball around anyways. It keeps the defense guessing.

i hear ya. but you also have to find a way to get the ball to your playmakers.

[msn]

take out the first half of his 3rd season and take a look.
Why take it out? It happened, too. What about the stats this year, now that for the first time ever he has an offensive line that blocks at least a little bit? If you're going to pay credence to his stats with *no* protection, shouldn't you at least pay a little credence to his stats *with* protection? It's just plain disingenuous if you don't.

He doesn't read off blitzes very well, he does not have good timing on his throws. He has a very strong arm, but tends to wait too long on reads. He has made some very good throws this season, but still doesn't make big plays especially in the 2nd half of games. He needs to keep throwing to AJ even though he dropped some passes.

The biggest improvement I've seen this season is he is back looking to get AJ the ball.

He tends to lose his tight ends and he is a better playmaker with his primary receiver.

Keep going to AJ and he should have a decent season.
Good stuff.

I would trade him straight up for Vince Young in a second.
Would you trade him straight up for Michael Vick, too? VY needs to prove he can *pass*, as you know that's what QB's *do*.

[Angle02]

i hear ya. but you also have to find a way to get the ball to your playmakers.

That is true. But is AJ a playmaker right now? Sounds like his hands aren't as good as they should be. Once he gets his number of drops down then he could be the playmaker you guys want.

[msn]

but it's the same old, same old over and over again.
But it's not! Holy crap, dude--precious few INT's all season until yesterday. Passing % way up. rhester hit on things that need to improve, but you've got to be wearing some pretty weird glasses not to see marked improvement already.

[ima_drummer2k]

He is not a playmaker.
It take more than just the QB to make plays. Receivers have to get open, O-line has to block, running game has to be established, etc.

He doesn't read off blitzes very well
He's taking less sacks this year than ever before.

he does not have good timing on his throws.
I don't see that. His accuracy has been as good as ever this year. Except for yesterday, obviously.

He has a very strong arm, but tends to wait too long on reads.
In the past, yes. But I think he's improved on his reads a lot this year.

He has made some very good throws this season, but still doesn't make big plays especially in the 2nd half of games.
That has to do with the lack of running game IMO. Teams are adjusting in the 2nd half, once they figure out that there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to put more than 5 or 6 in the box and drop everyone else back in coverage.

He needs to keep throwing to AJ even though he dropped some passes.
AJ is the leading receiver on the team. What make you think he's not throwing to AJ enough?

[Mr. Clutch]

i hear ya. but you also have to find a way to get the ball to your playmakers.

He did get him the ball. I think Andre finished with 75 yards plus about 3 dropped passes.

[rhester]

Would you trade him straight up for Michael Vick, too? VY needs to prove he can *pass*, as you know that's what QB's *do*.

Yes, and any one of the following- McNabb, Breese, Manning, Manning, Grossman, Palmer, Hasselbeck, Rivers, Brady, Roethlisberger.

[Angle02]

But it's not! Holy crap, dude--precious few INT's all season until yesterday. Passing % way up. rhester hit on things that need to improve, but you've got to be wearing some pretty weird glasses not to see marked improvement already.

The INT's wasn't Carr's fault yesterday anyways. The first being a ball batted up in the air and Ellis came diving in to catch it. The 2nd was a pass thrown with Henry covering his WR great(which he did the whole game). Henry just had the inside step to get infront of the ball. If Henry wasn't playing the WR like he did yesterday(meaning having a really good game) he wouldn't have got that INT.

On a side note on the 2nd INT. After Henry went to the ground the ball came out quickly after. I was wondering why there wasn't any talk of that not being an INT. I saw some movement from the ball as he was going down and AJ was able to rip it out after they hit the ground.

[jakedasnake]

is that a joke?
There is no way he could be doing any worse that what Dayne did today (14yrds on the ground). He may not be tearing it up but i'm sure he would have been a huge improvement over what we already have

I am pretty sure he is talking about how bad our O-line sucks. Seriously they are pathetic. Most of our shortcomings are due to how bad they suck. They are not good and are not showing any signs of improvements. First we need a good line then we should get a solid RB because I would be scared if our franchise RB played while these scrub O-linemen tried to block for him. Linebackers would take shots all day long.

[msn]

The more I think about it, the more baffling this Carr-hating really is.

All last year, we're pitching fits about Carr's inability to read the blitz, how all the sacks are his fault, how he's "rattled" and can't throw from the pocket. How he only throws to RBs and doesn't read coverage. How he makes poor decisions.

This year, he's taken precious few sacks compared to the last four years, his INT's are way down, his % and TD's are way up, his passer rating is up, he's spreading the passes out to his receivers.

...and somehow it's still all his fault.

Yesterday: the Texans rushed for what seemed like a solid 100 freaking INCHES the entire game, Forrest Freaking Gump was in our secondary, and we're fumbling punt returns. The defense can't stop Julius Jones and the secondary--holy crap. It was embarrassing. Our O-Line couldn't open up a gap the width of a LAPTOP for Dayne, while our d-line had holes you could drive a Mack Truck through. Hell, a freaking tank.

and what's our commentary? Trade DCarr. He's not a leader. He's not a playmaker.

Holy crap. That's just stupid.

[Uprising]

For all those people saying Carr hasn't improved at all. Have you been watching the games? He looks much more poised out there this season. Sacks down, passing percentage up, reads the D better. But there's only so much he can do when the Texans' have ZERO running. Teams are going to make adjustments in the 2nd half to stop the passing game, because that is the ONLY thing the Texans can do. Hell, our QB nearly had more rushing yards than our RB's yesterday IIRC.

I like how Carr has looked this season, aside from yesterday's 2nd half. He and the team just don't stand a real chance until they create a real running game. I'm sorry, having a running back run like 10 times for 18 yards or so is NOT going to cut it. We flat out suck running the ball. No ifs or buts about it.

Until we can run, Carr and the Texans don't stand a chance. Carr can only carry us so far this season. And AJ has to stop dropping passes, he's been good about that this season but his problems of his past showed up yesterday. (only 3 or so drops though....but still...)

Blah. I'm done I guess.

[Nick]

I'm tired of hearing the "Carr was a #1 pick... he should play like it" argument.

We all know that no one player in the NFL can perform above and beyond the quality of his team. We also have NO CLUE about how Carr would have developed had he gone to a team that wasn't starting from complete sractch, with mediocre players all-around.

These aren't "excuses", they're facts. Name any other QB that was able to take a talentless, patch-work, inexperienced, built from expansion, no-talent bunch... and not only look good in his own development, but lead that team to victories.

The ONLY QB in NFL history that seemingly rose above the talent of his team to lead them to success was John Elway... and even then, the talent/coaching/GM capabilities on John Elway's teams were far superior to the already fired GM/coach/released 1st-2nd-3rd round picks on this team.

Now, all this being said... Carr was never going to be John Elway (nor will any other QB), he probably wasn't going to become Peyton Manning, but Carr may have been able to develop into a pro-bowler (or at least at a rate comparable to the past top QB picks... Eli, Phillip Rivers) had he been on an actual, functional, team.

When you evaluate Carr... it shouldn't be "he was the #1 pick, he should act like it"... you have to include the caveat of "he was the #1 pick for an expansion team that has yet to get its **** together."

NONE of the high round picks (except for Ryans) look all that good right now (or at least close to a Pro-bowl level)... not AJ, not Dunta, not Mario, not Babin, not Travis Johnson, not Jopporu, not Gaffney, not Chester Pitts, not Tony Hollings, not Vernand Morency. We know that some of these guys were projected to be good... they couldn't have screwed up on all of them... thus, when you have this many "misses" thus far, it can't be considered some big coincidence. You HAVE to look at what team they play on, and how this team was built.

[Angle02]

For all those people saying Carr hasn't improved at all. Have you been watching the games? He looks much more poised out there this season. Sacks down, passing percentage up, reads the D better. But there's only so much he can do when the Texans' have ZERO running. Teams are going to make adjustments in the 2nd half to stop the passing game, because that is the ONLY thing the Texans can do. Hell, our QB nearly had more rushing yards than our RB's yesterday IIRC.

I like how Carr has looked this season, aside from yesterday's 2nd half. He and the team just don't stand a real chance until they create a real running game. I'm sorry, having a running back run like 10 times for 18 yards or so is NOT going to cut it. We flat out suck running the ball. No ifs or buts about it.

Until we can run, Carr and the Texans don't stand a chance. Carr can only carry us so far this season. And AJ has to stop dropping passes, he's been good about that this season but his problems of his past showed up yesterday. (only 3 or so drops though....but still...)

Blah. I'm done I guess.

Good post. I would take Carr on the Cowboys in a heartbeat, especially over the brick we have starting right now.

[MadMax]

...and somehow it's still all his fault.

.

what's baffling to me is how you think that i/we think it's ALL his fault.

you guys are all right. i love david carr. he's the greatest. i'm looking forward to 4.5 years more of inspired football with david carr. yippee.

[msn]

I'm tired of hearing the "Carr was a #1 pick... he should play like it" argument.

We all know that no one player in the NFL can perform above and beyond the quality of his team. We also have NO CLUE about how Carr would have developed had he gone to a team that wasn't starting from complete sractch, with mediocre players all-around.

These aren't "excuses", they're facts. Name any other QB that was able to take a talentless, patch-work, inexperienced, built from expansion, no-talent bunch... and not only look good in his own development, but lead that team to victories.

The ONLY QB in NFL history that seemingly rose above the talent of his team to lead them to success was John Elway... and even then, the talent/coaching/GM capabilities on John Elway's teams were far superior to the already fired GM/coach/released 1st-2nd-3rd round picks on this team.

Now, all this being said... Carr was never going to be John Elway (nor will any other QB), he probably wasn't going to become Peyton Manning, but Carr may have been able to develop into a pro-bowler (or at least at a rate comparable to the past top QB picks... Eli, Phillip Rivers) had he been on an actual, functional, team.

When you evaluate Carr... it shouldn't be "he was the #1 pick, he should act like it"... you have to include the caveat of "he was the #1 pick for an expansion team that has yet to get its **** together."

Well done. This part is especially thought-provoking:
NONE of the high round picks (except for Ryans) look all that good right now (or at least close to a Pro-bowl level)... not AJ, not Dunta, not Mario, not Babin, not Travis Johnson, not Jopporu, not Gaffney, not Chester Pitts, not Tony Hollings, not Vernand Morency. We know that some of these guys were projected to be good... they couldn't have screwed up on all of them... thus, when you have this many "misses" thus far, it can't be considered some big coincidence. You HAVE to look at what team they play on, and how this team was built.

[msn]

what's baffling to me is how you think that i/we think it's ALL his fault.
You got me--I'm guilty of hyperbole.

you guys are all right. i love david carr. he's the greatest. i'm looking forward to 4.5 years more of inspired football with david carr. yippee.
So, you're admitting you might be wrong about Carr? Or employing hyperbole like I did? :p

You know, the funniest thing about your post is this part:
i'm looking forward to 4.5 years more of inspired football with david carr.
I know you don't think it was all his fault, but it's pretty ironic that when we refer to the past four years (sarcastically) as "inspired" we only mention DCarr. No mention of Dumb Capers or Pendry or that Chris dude or Casserly. No mention of swiss cheese O-line or Babin or Peek or those jokers who kept dropping passes that Kubiak cut almost as soon as he got here. No mention of Jonathan "East-to-West" Wells. No mention of any of that--just DCarr.

[Nick]

what's baffling to me is how you think that i/we think it's ALL his fault.

The fact that this thread went up seconds after the game... combined with the beating he's taken the last year and a half from everybody (starting in year 4, where people actually believed the "O-line isn't the problem" line being touted by Casserly and Capers).

Carr has seemingly been annointed as the "face" of why this team isn't going anywhere. Sure, they have more problems then people can count on their fingers and toes... but his mistakes are scrutinized more than anybodies.

I understand if you want a martyr... then Carr, being the face of the franchise, has to take the axe. But, to come on here and say "I've had it with this guy... he's not playing like a #1 pick should play," without looking at any of the other FACTS (don't make excuses, look at the facts) is like saying, "The Bulls would have beaten the Rockets all those years... simply because of Michael Jordan." (a baseless claim that can never be proven).

[Fegwu]

I am not sure the direction all of this is taking but the point again is SELLING HIGH.

Carr is good. He is enjoying a very good stretch of games. Will it ever come full circle for him in Houston? I doubt it. Where do we stand now? Breakup and rebuild. Those in charge should ensure that their egos do not get so much in the way. We really need to access where we are and the current projection of things. Something is definitely wrong - status quo is, imho, not the answer to fixing it.

[MadMax]

You know, the funniest thing about your post is this part:

I know you don't think it was all his fault, but it's pretty ironic that when we refer to the past four years (sarcastically) as "inspired" we only mention DCarr. No mention of Dumb Capers or Pendry or that Chris dude or Casserly. No mention of swiss cheese O-line or Babin or Peek or those jokers who kept dropping passes that Kubiak cut almost as soon as he got here. No mention of Jonathan "East-to-West" Wells. No mention of any of that--just DCarr.

Dude, because the subject matter of the thread IS DAVID CARR!

Like it or not, QB's get more credit for success and more blame for losses than anyone on the field. That doesn't mean I think that others aren't culpable as well...or even more culpable.

I think they need change all over the place. And if the salary cap allowed, I wouldn't hesitate to make a change at QB. I think we made a mistake by extending out his contract.

[MadMax]

I understand if you want a martyr... then Carr, being the face of the franchise, has to take the axe. But, to come on here and say "I've had it with this guy... he's not playing like a #1 pick should play," without looking at any of the other FACTS (don't make excuses, look at the facts) is like saying, "The Bulls would have beaten the Rockets all those years... simply because of Michael Jordan." (a baseless claim that can never be proven).

I'm tired of the excuses, frankly. I realize many of them are legit. I'm just tired of it all.

[msn]

Dude, because the subject matter of the thread IS DAVID CARR!
Touché.

Like it or not, QB's get more credit for success and more blame for losses than anyone on the field.
From whom? I don't see the media blaming DCarr.

That doesn't mean I think that others aren't culpable as well...or even more culpable.
So, where's all your (anyone's) posts pointing that out?

I think we made a mistake by extending out his contract.
It's just that the facts don't bear that out.

[Nick]

I'm tired of the excuses, frankly. I realize many of them are legit. I'm just tired of it all.

Don't even look at David Carr then... look at every single other aspect of this team.

Why can't AJ catch 5 yard slants consistently in his fourth year after being the #3 pick of the draft?

Why does Dunta look worse as a 3rd year player, than he did during his near pro-bowl rookie year?

Would Jason Babin and Travis Johnson still be in the league if they weren't inexplicable 1st round picks?

Is a rookie head-coach really the guy you want leading a team that could actually be WORSE off (talent/depth/inexperience-wise) than they were during their expansion year?

When you have this many questions about individual players, individual components (o-line, d-line), individual coaches, individual GM's.... I don't think anybody is in the position to make simple "excuses" for anybody.

At that point, you're looking at a big steaming pile of facts/truths/unfortunates... way too complex to pin-point on just one component. And you soon realize that you're not just tired of David Carr... you're tired of the whole stinkin team that's wasted 5 years and built NOTHING.

[msn]

I'm tired of the excuses, frankly. I realize many of them are legit.
If it's legit, it's not an excuse. (Guys call those facts "excuses" typically because they have no sound argument with which to counter.) Do you beleive DCarr is getting a free pass? If so, can you demonstrate how his performance is unimproved over the last four seasons?

Or are you tired of the fact that huge pieces of the offense are inept every year? For four years, it's been pass blocking. We work on that this year, and now the running has gone down the toilet. As tired of *that* as I am, I'm even *more* tired of the defense.

The very least of this team's problems is DCarr.

[MadMax]

So, where's all your (anyone's) posts pointing that out?


.

i'm not gonna search out my posts for you. you can choose to believe me or not.

[MadMax]

At that point, you're looking at a big steaming pile of facts/truths/unfortunates... way too complex to pin-point on just one component. And you soon realize that you're not just tired of David Carr... you're tired of the whole stinkin team that's wasted 5 years and built NOTHING.
EXACTLY!!!!

I'M TIRED OF THE WHOLE FREAKING TEAM!!! THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION!!!

(ummm..david carr is a part of that)

[Nick]

I'm tired of this team making mistakes... everywhere. I'm tired of waiting for them to stop looking like an expansion team (which they still do). I'm tired of them not having any talent on the o-line. I'm tired of them always having questions when it comes to their coach, or their GM. I'm tired of this team formerly wasting high draft picks on nobodies (babin, TJ), or trading a bunch of picks to get washed-up players (Buchannon).

There are plenty of things to be tired of... you wouldn't have enough bandwith on this bbs to start threads on all of them.

[ima_drummer2k]

The very least of this team's problems is DCarr.
Man, that's all I'm trying to say.

There are SO MANY other problems with this team/franchise. I don't understand why some people put it all on the QB, especially during a year in which he is 1 of maybe 3 players that are actually playing slightly above average and/or better than last year.

[msn]

i'm not gonna search out my posts for you. you can choose to believe me or not.
If you're telling me you have, I believe you. I asked because I legitimately don't remember any. And those goes for all those who are "Carr-hating" (and you're not a very good example of that, btw).

[MadMax]

If it's legit, it's not an excuse. (Guys call those facts "excuses" typically because they have no sound argument with which to counter.) Do you beleive DCarr is getting a free pass? If so, can you demonstrate how his performance is unimproved over the last four seasons?

Or are you tired of the fact that huge pieces of the offense are inept every year? For four years, it's been pass blocking. We work on that this year, and now the running has gone down the toilet. As tired of *that* as I am, I'm even *more* tired of the defense.

The very least of this team's problems is DCarr.

yeah.. he's unimproved. he made strides in 2004..went backwards in 2005...we'll see how 2006 turns out.

i believe carr has a host of folks who make excuses for him at every turn. when he throws an INT, it's the running backs' fault because poor david had to throw too many passes. when he gets sacked, it's always the OL's fault, despite the fact the Texans looked at game tape last season and attributed about 1/3 of them to poor david.

i don't think i've ever seen a player more coddled. they never introduced any competition for him. they made excuses for him at every turn.

yes, the defense sucks. yes, the running game sucks. but that doesn't mean that Carr is good/great!!!???!!!!

whatever...i'm not trying to change your mind. i've seen enough. i had season tickets the first 3 seasons. it's a joke. a really bad joke with no punchline. and david carr is absolutelly, postively part of it. the absolution he gets from you guys as if he apart from the rest of the team is nothng short of funny.

[MadMax]

I don't understand why some people put it all on the QB, .

did you just say that again??

who in the world here thinks that if the Texans would just change out QB's it would all be different. i bet you can't find one.

[Nick]

(ummm..david carr is a part of that)

Yea... but "blaming" him is not the way to go about it.

In the end, David Carr didn't fail the Texans... the Texans have failed David Carr, and every other player they've drafted, signed, traded for, and coached.

I used to like to blame individual players, and individual components... but when that list started getting too long, I figured it could no longer be a coincidence.

Blaming individual players for the failure of this team is a waste of time... and highly inaccurate. They've failed as a team... and getting rid of parts that are still salvageable (even though you've already lost all faith in the guy) is not the best way to go about re-building (or in their case, just "building") anything.

[MadMax]

Yea... but "blaming" him is not the way to go about it.

In the end, David Carr didn't fail the Texans... the Texans have failed David Carr, and every other player they've drafted, signed, traded for, and coached.

I used to like to blame individual players, and individual components... but when that list started getting too long, I figured it could no longer be a coincidence.

.

that frustrates the crap out of me. seriously...he's part of the problem, but it would be bad to blame him. we might hurt his feelings!!?? what would his wife think???

the most coddled athlete i've ever seen. i bet everyone else wishes they had excuses made for them like that.

"I'm an awful lawyer...but it's the firm I work for...ummm..they're not helping me grow. So it's their fault. Hire me anyway."

geez, that's a sweet gig.

[rhester]

I am not against Carr.
He is playing his best ball right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't rate him as high as Carlson Palmer or even Hasselbeck.

I for one just wish we hadn't extended him and we had drafted Vince Young.

I still like Vince Young. I might be wrong, but if I was rebuilding a 2-14 team with almost 'zero' talent (at best expansion team talent- thank you Charlie Casserly) I would start at the QB position.

Vince Young type talent comes along only so often. In my book he will be as good a QB as Palmer, P Manning and McNabb.

I just hope Kubiak and Co. can draft well, I like Ryans and Spencer (come on Mario).

This team needs talent in the worst way. Playmakers on both sides of the ball. I have hopes still that AJ will be a playmaker. So we still need a great running back, improved OL and a DEFENSE.

As far as Carr, take him or leave him, I already stated who I would rather have and I think he is having a good year.

I hate it when he doesn't anticipate his receivers out of the break that is a confidence timing issue and I don't like his timing on his deep throws.

But I admit he isn't in the bottom third of QB's and he certainly isn't in the top third either.

He's playing OK so far this season.

BTW- I was against picking Carr. I wanted Vick to stay in school so we could start out with him. I was thinking they should have traded that pick. Just like I wanted them to take VY or trade the pick this season.

[A-Train]

Man, that's all I'm trying to say.

There are SO MANY other problems with this team/franchise. I don't understand why some people put it all on the QB, especially during a year in which he is 1 of maybe 3 players that are actually playing slightly above average and/or better than last year.

There are two people that get the blame if a football team can't win, the coach and the QB. The coach was fired last season. Sorry, but it's the sad truth.

Is Carr getting unneccessarily bashed? Probably. If it's just a few people against the mob, however, the mob usually wins...

[Nick]

that frustrates the crap out of me. seriously...he's part of the problem, but it would be bad to blame him. we might hurt his feelings!!?? what would his wife think???

the most coddled athlete i've ever seen. i bet everyone else wishes they had excuses made for them like that.

"I'm an awful lawyer...but it's the firm I work for...ummm..they're not helping me grow. So it's their fault. Hire me anyway."

geez, that's a sweet gig.

Who the hell is coddling him? I know the sensible people here have still admitted that he's not good... but also that part of the reason he's not good is because of the team he's on.

And that's besides the countless lesser sensible fans who've called into every show for the last year and a half calling for his head.

Also, if you were straight out of law school, and you went to a firm that was just formed... and you had no experience, the firm really had no experience, the firm didn't acquire established lawyers with proven track records to teach you, the firm went through 2-3 different directors in 5 years, and the whole time you'd made only minimal improvement... would people say "that guy is just bad, " or would they say "that guy is bad, but its not suprising considering the firm he's at."

David Carr isn't playing like historical #1 picks have played.... and that's not (nor should it be) suprising based on the team he's on. Not an excuse... its reality.

[msn]

yeah.. he's unimproved.
Wow. Were you drinking your beer for every TD/completion this year? I mean, wow. I'll take DC2006 over DC2005 every day of the week--twice on Sunday.

i believe carr has a host of folks who make excuses for him at every turn.
Yet you haven't once provided a solid counter to the FACTS presented.

when he throws an INT, it's the running backs' fault because poor david had to throw too many passes.
Ummmm, if anyone ever said that then you have a point--that's stupid.

when he gets sacked, it's always the OL's fault, despite the fact the Texans looked at game tape last season and attributed about 1/3 of them to poor david.
Myself and others acknowledged this last year before the Texans came out with that. But what's disingenuous here is that you and others are not acknowledging how much better--FAR better, he is in those same situations this year. Dear God, have you not noticed how rarely the man gets sacked this year?

i don't think i've ever seen a player more coddled. they never introduced any competition for him. they made excuses for him at every turn.
Whatever. Capers/Casserly were blaming him for crap last year that *wasn't* his fault, and Kubiak has been in his face since he got here. Busting his chops in private, and talking about it afterward to the media.

yes, the defense sucks. yes, the running game sucks. but that doesn't mean that Carr is good/great!!!???!!!!
It sure doesn't. How about Carr's completion numbers this year? How about his TD/INT ratio this year? How about how he's obviously reading blitzes better and spreading the ball around? You know what, his performance speaks for itself this year. He is moderately above average, and there is potential for more.

whatever...i'm not trying to change your mind. i've seen enough. i had season tickets the first 3 seasons. it's a joke. a really bad joke with no punchline. and david carr is absolutelly, postively part of it. the absolution he gets from you guys as if he apart from the rest of the team is nothng short of funny.
It *has* sucked. But the way fans act, you'd think bringing in VY would have instantly turned this franchise around--and THAT'S what is laughable.

And DCarr has not gotten "absolution" from me. I called him out on sacks that his fault last year, and I called him out for a lousy performance just yesterday. Your "absolution" statement is as much a hyperbole as my saying you blame the whole thing on Carr.

[RocketMan Tex]

Carr is not the problem.

The problem(s) are no running game and a very mediocre defense.

Those of you who are old (like me :D ) need to remember what Dan Pastorini was like early in his career...with marginal talent around him. Dan didn't make the playoffs until the Oilers drafted Earl Campbell. Carr won't make noise until he gets a running game to compliment the Texans passing game.

[MadMax]

Wow. Were you drinking your beer for every TD/completion this year? I mean, wow. I'll take DC2006 over DC2005 every day of the week--twice on Sunday.
.

i'm gonna stop here. because you clearly twisted what i said when i actually addressed 2005 and 2006. DC2006 has played all of 5 games.

and you're being really unfair to DC2005. it's not his fault, remember?

[ima_drummer2k]

who in the world here thinks that if the Texans would just change out QB's it would all be different. i bet you can't find one.
Maybe no one is saying that, but look at the title of the thread. That mentality does exist in this thread and this bbs. Maybe not from you, but it does exist.

Again, I'm not a Carr apologist anymore that you're a Carr hater. If the right trade comes along, hell yeah let's do it. I just think it's odd (yet somewhat predictable) to start a thread like this and pile on after his first bad game all year.

Let's address the O-line, D-line, secondary, RB, LB positions before QB. It's all about priorities.

[MadMax]

Maybe no one is saying that, but look at the title of the thread. That mentality does exist in this thread and this bbs. Maybe not from you, but it does exist.

Again, I'm not a Carr apologist anymore that you're a Carr hater. If the right trade comes along, hell yeah let's do it. I just think it's odd (yet somewhat predictable) to start a thread like this and pile on after his first bad game all year.

Let's address the O-line, D-line, secondary, RB, LB positions before QB. It's all about priorities.

i'm just tired of the excuses, all the way around. they have a million reasons why they can't be effective 4.5 years in. none of them alleviate the fact that they're not effective. none of them make me feel any better about the situation.

[Nick]

i'm just tired of the excuses, all the way around. they have a million reasons why they can't be effective 4.5 years in. none of them alleviate the fact that they're not effective. none of them make me feel any better about the situation.

So blame one person, who may or may not deserve the voracity of that blame, for most of the collective franchise's problems.

Doesn't make sense.

[Major]

For four years, it's been pass blocking.

No it wasn't. In 2002 and 2005, it certainly was (76 and 68 sacks). In 2003, in 12 games, he was sacked 15 times. In 2004, he had 49 sacks - not great, but certainly not nearly as bad as the other two years.

The O-Line has been up-and-down (more down than up), but it's not like its been a problem every year. Remember, at the beginning of last year, this team was considered a possible outside playoff contender. It's not like everyone though they had the worst O-Line ever.

[Major]

So blame one person, who may or may not deserve the voracity of that blame, for most of the collective franchise's problems.

Doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense because that's not what MadMax said - but instead simply want you want him to have said. He has said (probably a dozen times just in the parts of this thread that I've read), that Carr is part of the problem. In other words, he's not exempt from the criticism. Not that he's the only one to blame.

[Nick]

It doesn't make sense because that's not what MadMax said - but instead simply want you want him to have said. He has said (probably a dozen times just in the parts of this thread that I've read), that Carr is part of the problem. In other words, he's not exempt from the criticism. Not that he's the only one to blame.

WHO IS EXEMPTING HIM?

I'm not saying he's blameless... but that focusing more on his faults than those of the collective team isn't going to help anybody.

The people who say "get rid of David Carr" would like to make it seem that the people who dont' agree with them are saying "Carr can do no wrong..." and that's simply not the case.

So, in essence... everybody here is saying the same thing... "Carr isn't doing well, neither is the whole team." Its just "how" they're saying it that's differing. Ugh, what a waste of time.

[H-Town Info]

i want to bump this again.

i don't get why is everyone is bashing carr already after one bad game. while u r at bashing qbs, u should bash matt hasselback for 2 of his bad games this season against arizona and the bears and byron leftwich against the colts this season. this is the nfl, nobody is perfect every week. there's going to be some good games and bad games. i'm not a carr lover or carr basher but i look at things on both sides. imo, carr is going to bounce back. right now, i'm sad about the texans, very sad. But, i'm more sad about my fellow fans who are sounding like new york city fans or something. One bad game by Carr and people calling for his head on a silver platter. Thats what makes me sick to my stomach more than texans losing b/c people just don't take time to evaluate it.

i knew the texans were going to suck and i bet it's going be worse before it gets better. This team has a lot of holes to fill. The previous regime just screwed up the whole franchise and kubiak and company is going to clean it up. i believe kubiak has the ability to fix things but its going to take a few years unfortunately. I know the former oilers fans are tired of losing but this is a new regime, new systems, and everything.

and u so called texans fans got to remember there's a such thing as a SALARY CAP. if the texans did trade carr, the texans will eat some good amt of dead cap money for trading carr. the first thing you think about when u r trading in the NFL is whats the f'n CAP RAMIFICATIONS. So pretty much, Carr is stuck here for better or for worse.

[MadMax]

So blame one person, who may or may not deserve the voracity of that blame, for most of the collective franchise's problems.

Doesn't make sense.

for roughly the 10th time today:

i'm not blaming one person.

[msn]

It doesn't make sense because that's not what MadMax said - but instead simply want you want him to have said.
It's not what Max has said--but it's what many have said.

And, if a group of people repeatedly bash one guy, then the collective volume of their posts is more to be believed then one or two "yeah, others are at fault, too."

And, looking at performance by position, the qb position has to be near the bottom in terms of culpability for the Texans' sucktitude. Yet, it's what people whine about the most. Doesn't that seem a little off to you?

[rrj_gamz]

Man, what a rant, but let's end this...

To be PC, it's the team's fault...Is David apart of the problem, yes, but he doesn't play D and he isn't a running back...However, like someone said earlier, its the Coach and QB who have the highest visibility and thus get blammed for everything...That's why they make the big bucks...

To quote "First rule in management, everythings your fault"...

[msn]

i'm gonna stop here. because you clearly twisted what i said when i actually addressed 2005 and 2006.
Whoa.

I don't play like that. I don't intentionally twist people's words and use those twisted words against them.

Obviously, I clearly misunderstood what you said. Wouldn't be the first time, and I'm sorry about that.

[garthomps]

did you just say that again??

who in the world here thinks that if the Texans would just change out QB's it would all be different. i bet you can't find one.

I beg to differ, make a change to say Brees (or even Leinart) and we would see an improvement.

[Nick]

I beg to differ, make a change to say Leinart or Brees and we would see an improvement.

Funny how you mention Brees... a guy who was god-awful, and forced his team to use a high draft pick on another QB, only to become good once his team started acquiring TALENT to surround him (LT, and 2 solid o-lineman on the Chargers).

[garthomps]

Funny how you mention Brees... a guy who was god-awful, and forced his team to use a high draft pick on another QB, only to become good once his team started acquiring TALENT to surround him (LT, and 2 solid o-lineman on the Chargers).

I've been a fan of Brees from his time at Purdue (plus he's a fellow Texan). Anyways, he plays smart and no he was not bad at San Diego.

[timwalters]

ok, when the texans gave carr an extension i felt a vibe of "huge mistake"...now im watching Matt Leinert..and Im like, "edgerrin james isnt running at all, they have no running game,all the receivers of arizona are double or triple covered and leinert STILL completes the passes " ..thats what carr is lacking..and im sick of excuses...carr has had 4.5 years to "get it" leinert has "it" within 2 games

[Nick]

I've been a fan of Brees from his time at Purdue (plus he's a fellow Texan). Anyways, he plays smart and no he was not bad at San Diego.

Care to look at how far he regressed, that forced the Chargers to draft Phillip Rivers?

Why did the Chargers use their top 5 pick (traded Eli with the Giants #4) to pick up a QB if Brees was so great?

[The Cat]

ok, when the texans gave carr an extension i felt a vibe of "huge mistake"...now im watching Matt Leinert..and Im like, "edgerrin james isnt running at all, they have no running game,all the receivers of arizona are double or triple covered and leinert STILL completes the passes " ..thats what carr is lacking..and im sick of excuses...carr has had 4.5 years to "get it" leinert has "it" within 2 games

Leinart's had one great quarter. (And also note that he threw a blatant pick that officials mistakenly overturned.) Are you seriously making the case that Carr has never had a quarter in 4.5 years where he's "got it"? Because I can think of several this year.

Carr has had several brilliant quarters in his tenure with the Texans. Hell, Carr had a brilliant first quarter against the Cowboys in his first game as a rookie. How is Leinart doing anything different?

[The Cat]

I beg to differ, make a change to say Brees (or even Leinart) and we would see an improvement.

Make a change to Leinart and this team is 0-16.

[rhino17]

I am pretty sure he is talking about how bad our O-line sucks. Seriously they are pathetic. Most of our shortcomings are due to how bad they suck. They are not good and are not showing any signs of improvements. First we need a good line then we should get a solid RB because I would be scared if our franchise RB played while these scrub O-linemen tried to block for him. Linebackers would take shots all day long.

You are right but seriously, Ron Dayne? Where else in the NFL could he even be a #2 running back. All i'm saying is you have to put at least a decent or even average runner behind this crappy O-line. That would help at least a litte although even a franchise guy like LT couldnt completely overhaul this line.

[Clutch]

Ironically Drew Brees is the perfect example for and against Carr. His 5th year late blooming in San Diego (after the drafting of Philip Rivers) showed that quarterbacks can "get it" late. On the other hand, Brees arrival in New Orleans shows how much a QB change can really impact a team.

Look at Matt Leinart tonight. Has possibly the worst offensive line in football, going up against the best defense in the NFL in perhaps the last 4 years ... and he throws 2 TD passes in the first half.

I don't necessarily blame Carr... he's been pretty good this year (up until the Cowboys game). But if the losses just continue to pile up, at some point, you just got to make a change.

[timwalters]

matt has more poise than carr, better and faster decision making...football the receivers are opne for a spilt second, some qb's complete it, and some don't...thats what seperates the ones that have "it"(brady,manning,leinart,young,cutler) from those that "panic" like carr,harrington,couch,...its not about how strong your arm is or how cute you are or "experience" or "good mobility" its about having leadership qualities,poise,timing passes accurately when there is that "split second" window.....if kubiak can't make carr good then its hopeless....

now, alot of you are saying "lets get a o-line,rb,tight end,then lets worry about carr"....the problem with that is to get all those pieces will take a few years and by then if carr still "doesnt get it" then you would have to draft a rookie qb and "hope he gets it"..and its like rebuilding "again" with a rookie qb...way to risky...

when you want to completely rebuild...you start with a leader,a qb...and the texans (namely Kubiak) completely BLEW IT by extending carr and not taking a cutler or young or leinart

[garthomps]

Care to look at how far he regressed, that forced the Chargers to draft Phillip Rivers?

Why did the Chargers use their top 5 pick (traded Eli with the Giants #4) to pick up a QB if Brees was so great?

Never said great. I was actually selecting two QBs which are not "yet" pro bowl quality names and stating that they would be better than Carr.

It's a trade Carr thread, right?

It's obvious that you won't get a "great" QB for Carr. You are going to have a very tough time finding takers.

[The Cat]

matt has more poise than carr, better and faster decision making...football the receivers are opne for a spilt second, some qb's complete it, and some don't...thats what seperates the ones that have "it"(brady,manning,leinart,young,cutler) from those that "panic" like carr,harrington,couch,...its not about how strong your arm is or how cute you are or "experience" or "good mobility" its about having leadership qualities,poise,timing passes accurately when there is that "split second" window.....if kubiak can't make carr good then its hopeless....

now, alot of you are saying "lets get a o-line,rb,tight end,then lets worry about carr"....the problem with that is to get all those pieces will take a few years and by then if carr still "doesnt get it" then you would have to draft a rookie qb and "hope he gets it"..and its like rebuilding "again" with a rookie qb...way to risky...

when you want to completely rebuild...you start with a leader,a qb...and the texans (namely Kubiak) completely BLEW IT by extending carr and not taking a cutler or young or leinart

Having watched both Carr and Leinart extensively, I feel that Carr makes quicker decisions or at the least comparable. What's the evidence to the contrary?

Instead of talking about "getting it" let's talk about specific plays that Leinart has made that are different from any Carr has ever made in his career.

[Nick]

It's obvious that you won't get a "great" QB for Carr. You are going to have a very tough time finding takers.

Then why are we arguing about this? Especially when Carr is not the biggest problem on this team, by a long-shot.

Before last week, his performance was one of the only bright-spots in a sea of blackness... now, one bad game (in a week where everybody on the team had a bad game), and he should be kicked off the team.

Again, doesn't make sense.

[Nick]

when you want to completely rebuild...you start with a leader,a qb...and the texans (namely Kubiak) completely BLEW IT by extending carr and not taking a cutler or young or leinart

Ironically, that was the same mistake this franchise made from day 1... attempting to start an expansion team off with a ROOKIE QB.

Once again... the drafting of Mario Williams was equivalent to what they should have done as an expansion team in 2003... draft Peppers.

Actually, looking at the talent from top to bottom (taking into account experience and career track records)... this team could be LESS talented than the expansion team we put together.

THAT is sad.

[garthomps]

Then why are we arguing about this? Especially when Carr is not the biggest problem on this team, by a long-shot.

Before last week, his performance was one of the only bright-spots in a sea of blackness... now, one bad game (in a week where everybody on the team had a bad game), and he should be kicked off the team.

Again, doesn't make sense.


Well, call it a rant - but I gave up on Carr a couple years ago. I simply think he doesn't play smart.

Clutch and tinwalters make valid points above.

[Nick]

Rex Grossman looks pretty bad tonight... but he'd looked pretty good, on a GREAT defensive team, for the first part of the season after mediocre seasons before that.

How does he get evaluated?

[TMac#1]

Leinart has been pretty damn good in his 2 starts so far, teams are gonna be sorry they passed on him. If Arizona ever gets an o-line to go along with all of their weapons and decent defense, they are going to be very good.

[ima_drummer2k]

ok, when the texans gave carr an extension i felt a vibe of "huge mistake"...now im watching Matt Leinert..and Im like, "edgerrin james isnt running at all, they have no running game,all the receivers of arizona are double or triple covered and leinert STILL completes the passes " ..thats what carr is lacking..and im sick of excuses...carr has had 4.5 years to "get it" leinert has "it" within 2 games
Carr is "completing the passes" too. That's why he's the 6th rated passer in the NFL this year. Before Sunday, he was #1.

[ipaman]

I didn't want to start a new thread but have you guys ever seen carr in the shotgun??

i know that doesn't solve any major problems, but i recall carr at frenso was primarily a shotgun guy. after watching young this weekend and leinart tonight when the situation required it they went shotgun and produced both running and passing plays. a draw might be nice every now and then since conventional running plays aren't working.

it ticks me off when its third and 10+ and he is under center. usually by the time he finishes his drop his pocket has collapsed on one side or the other or completely. :mad:

and it's not the new regime because i saw this with capers too.
:confused:

[SamFisher]

I agree with ipaman.

NFL teams, as the west coast offense gained popularity, seem to have an ingrained bias against using the shotgun. The arguments against it are tht it's harder to do timing/rhythm type patterns typical of the west coast offense w/o the 3 step drop, and that it's harder to run out of. My counter is that on 3rd & long, you're not running anyway and everybody knows it so you might as well use the freaking shotgun and give your QB a better look at the field. Of course I have a shotgun bias since I used it like crazy in the first computer football game I ever owned and played relentlessly (4th & inches for the commodore 64....Shotgun Post to the TE worked almost constantly.)

[rhester]

Everyone who is satisfied with Carr...... ENJOY

He's OK, and he's all we got.


Should have drafted VY :cool:

[Luckyazn]

I think right now I think Matt Leinart/VY/Reggie looks better at #1 than Mario

[imoffg33]

sure he's not what we expected, but how can everyone in houston be so high on carr for the first few games and so down on him after sunday? its going to be pretty hard to trade carr with that new contract that he has.

[Luckyazn]

We were 2-14 last year

We are 1-4 this year

Stop defending Mario for the next 4 years like most of you guys have about Carr when WE ALL KNOW them two are "NOT #1 draft pick guys"

2001- Vick
2002- Carr
2003- Palmer
2004- Eli
2005- A. Smith
2006- VY/Culter/Leinart

so beside 05' it look like we came in the WRONG year to draft a QB! any other year we would have a "franchise qb"


We are just a mirror version of the Cleveland Browns .....

Carr might have a good QB rating but the fact is HE CAN"T LEAD THIS TEAM to wins. PUT IN SAGE!!!! and see what happen ...

[rhester]

Success for the Texans-

4-12 record
David Carr the #1 passer rating

sounds good to me

I hope we draft a defense next year


**** edit****
I actually think we can win 3-5 more games but I am not sure why????

[rhino17]

I think right now I think Matt Leinart/VY/Reggie looks better at #1 than Mario

I concur

[Groogrux]

Stop defending Mario for the next 4 years like most of you guys have about Carr when WE ALL KNOW them two are "NOT #1 draft pick guys"

Anyone who thinks they know this for a fact after five NFL games knows absolutely nothing about sports.

[Luckyazn]

Anyone who thinks they know this for a fact after five NFL games knows absolutely nothing about sports.


Yeah that's what some people said about David Carr after 5 games ...... and some 4.5 years ago

[Ric]

I'm tired of the excuses, frankly. I realize many of them are legit. I'm just tired of it all.
hey, max -

i appreciate, and certainly understand your frustration. but i want to ask you a question. are you a big fan of edgerrin james? ok, perhaps not a "fan," but i'm sure you appreciate the guy's work, right? in his first seven years, all with the colts, he averaged 96.1 rushing yards per game; 4.2 yards per carry and 10 rushing touchdowns per year (in six full seasons; he missed 10 games in 2001). pretty good, right? group hug?

he’s led the league in rushing twice and finished among the top 2 in total yards from scrimmage three times. all told, he’s finished among the top 5 rushers four times and been among the top 5 in yards from scrimmage 4 times. last year, he rushed for 1,506 yards and is now 19th all-time in rushing yards. is canton calling?

this year with arizona, however, he's averaging 66.3 yds/game; 2.7 yds/carry and is one pace to score just 5 tds. so what's happened to edgerrin james, arguably one of the 2 or 3 best all-around backs in all of football the past seven years? open-ended question; i'd appreciate your thoughts/opinions/theories.

[Groogrux]

Yeah that's what some people said about David Carr after 5 games ...... and some 4.5 years ago

Right. I'm sure people were able to make an accurate judgment on a QB of an expansion team five games into the team's existence. :rolleyes:

They may be right now, but that doesn't mean they could make an accurate call back in 2002.

[rhester]

hey, max -

i appreciate, and certainly understand your frustration. but i want to ask you a question. are you a big fan of edgerrin james? ok, perhaps not a "fan," but i'm sure you appreciate the guy's work, right? in his first seven years, all with the colts, he averaged 96.1 rushing yards per game; 4.2 yards per carry and 10 rushing touchdowns per year (in six full seasons; he missed 10 games in 2001). pretty good, right? group hug?

he’s led the league in rushing twice and finished among the top 2 in total yards from scrimmage three times. all told, he’s finished among the top 5 rushers four times and been among the top 5 in yards from scrimmage 4 times. last year, he rushed for 1,506 yards and is now 19th all-time in rushing yards. is canton calling?

this year with arizona, however, he's averaging 66.3 yds/game; 2.7 yds/carry and is one pace to score just 5 tds. so what's happened to edgerrin james, arguably one of the 2 or 3 best all-around backs in all of football the past seven years? open-ended question; i'd appreciate your thoughts/opinions/theories.

I'll jump in, my opinion is he is no Earl Campbell. ;)

[MadMax]

hey, max -

i appreciate, and certainly understand your frustration. but i want to ask you a question. are you a big fan of edgerrin james? ok, perhaps not a "fan," but i'm sure you appreciate the guy's work, right? in his first seven years, all with the colts, he averaged 96.1 rushing yards per game; 4.2 yards per carry and 10 rushing touchdowns per year (in six full seasons; he missed 10 games in 2001). pretty good, right? group hug?

he’s led the league in rushing twice and finished among the top 2 in total yards from scrimmage three times. all told, he’s finished among the top 5 rushers four times and been among the top 5 in yards from scrimmage 4 times. last year, he rushed for 1,506 yards and is now 19th all-time in rushing yards. is canton calling?

this year with arizona, however, he's averaging 66.3 yds/game; 2.7 yds/carry and is one pace to score just 5 tds. so what's happened to edgerrin james, arguably one of the 2 or 3 best all-around backs in all of football the past seven years? open-ended question; i'd appreciate your thoughts/opinions/theories.

i answered this in the other thread. why are you posting me this question twice? in two different threads?

[msn]

I'll jump in, my opinion is he is no Earl Campbell. ;)
...and DC is no John Elway.

Now that we have that settled, why do you suppose Edge's numbers are down significantly in Arizona?

[Mr. Clutch]

...and DC is no John Elway.

Now that we have that settled, why do you suppose Edge's numbers are down significantly in Arizona?

Because he looks lost and just don't have "it"?

[Summer Song Giver]

Because he looks lost and just don't have "it"?

I'm sorry sir, you are going to have to expand upon this "it", please back up your statements with stats, drop back times, where his head is looking, what he had for breakfast that morning for that is what matters. It does not matter that he sucks, for what is sucking, what we all want to know is why he sucks and then maybe we can incorporate these reasons into why David Carr sucks because sucking can not be the reason David sucks, David must suck for a reason, is it because his line sicks that David sucks or is it because the coaching sucks that David sucks, maybe it's the running game that causes David to suck, possibly it is the defense that causes David's suckage or the receivers whose suckage has caused David to suck: for you David alone can not suck, it is not in his nature to just suck, there are other elements at work that must have caused him to suck.

[Luckyazn]

Lets put it this way



WHO THINKS CARR WILL BE BACK AFTER THIS EXTENTION?


highly doubt it ... so that means he's NOT GOOD ENOUGH! if he was good enough we wont even have to think about it like Vick, Palmer, Eli shoot and add Leinart.

[msn]

I'm sorry sir, you are going to have to expand upon this "it", please back up your statements with stats, drop back times, where his head is looking, what he had for breakfast that morning for that is what matters. It does not matter that he sucks
Sarcasm isn't helping your weak argument, either. The answer is that he *doesn't* suck, and the facts bear that out. That's why some posters work so hard to dismiss these facts, because they have *nothing* but their own misguided opinions with which to prop up their pathetic argument.

[MadMax]

Sarcasm isn't helping your weak argument, either. The answer is that he *doesn't* suck, and the facts bear that out. That's why some posters work so hard to dismiss these facts, because they have *nothing* but their own misguided opinions with which to prop up their pathetic argument.

Yeah. It's no longer opinion. It's fact. David Carr rocks the casbah. No one can disagree. Anyone who thinks otherwise is misguided.

[Desert Scar]

I should have posted this here, these threads seem to be randomly jumping across subjects

I think Carr still has the chance to be a good quality QB. He has been a good QB most of the season. A bad 2nd half against one of the most athletic defenses (Dallas) when they got on a roll, that could happen to 90% of the NFLers.

Here is a short list of the guys I would definetly take my chance to build by team around right now over Carr.
-Brady
-McNabb
-Manning (P)
-Hasselbeck (the most underrated QB in the league, excellent passer and good athlete, could be the 4th best overall)
-Palmer (all the tools, but leadership?)
-Vick (has issues he needs to work on, but Atl's W/L with him versus w/o him show his impact)
-Young (ridiculous upside, already leading)

Carr may or may not be better than....
Roethlisberger (current most overrated individual in the league, OK, well maybe tied with R. Bush)
Leftwich
Rivers
Eli
Leinart
Cutler
Brees
Alex Smith
--Most of the 2nd groups have been with offensively loaded teams (Ben, Eli, Rivers, ML, Brees), some with a defense too (that allows them to throw in low-risk high success situations--see what this has done to Jake Plummer's career), so I can't say with confidence Carr has worse prospects given the same situation OR we just don't have enough information at this point (Smith, Cutler). Also, Eli has looked sucky and personally chunked many games in his short career despite a good supporting cast (I think he gets the benefit of the doubt and hasn't been crucified simply b/c he is a Manning, though he is finally playing decent this year). Now I'd probably go with some of the younger ones in the above group over Carr to build a team (Leftwich, Rivers, Ben, ML, Smith, Eli)--but I can't say with all confidence they are much better right now or that their upside is all that much greater.

[H-Town Info]

Because he looks lost and just don't have "it"?

yea he doesn't have a f'n o-line to help him. go check the rushing stats for the cardinals. no cardinals RB has rushed for 1k yards since murrell in 1998. check and mate.

[Summer Song Giver]

Sarcasm isn't helping your weak argument, either. The answer is that he *doesn't* suck, and the facts bear that out. That's why some posters work so hard to dismiss these facts, because they have *nothing* but their own misguided opinions with which to prop up their pathetic argument.


I'll play a game with ya, you name a QB the texans would be worse off with than David and I'll in turn name one the texans would be better off with and we'll see who runs out of names first.

I'll start, the Texans would be better off with a one armed silver back gorilla from deep in the rain forests of Africa.

[msn]

I'll play a game with ya, you name a QB the texans would be worse off with than David and I'll in turn name one the texans would be better off with and we'll see who runs out of names first.
The fact that you consider this logical betrays that I'm wasting my time.

I'll start, the Texans would be better off with a one armed silver back gorilla from deep in the rain forests of Africa.
Gotcha. You definitely know what their needs are.

[Desert Scar]

I'll play a game with ya, you name a QB the texans would be worse off with than David and I'll in turn name one the texans would be better off with and we'll see who runs out of names first.


I listed 15 above I would take or consider over Carr to build my team. That still puts him average among starters if you take every single of my 15. Care to add more?

[Major Malcontent]

Kudos to Carr on his toughness. He has been throughly beaten by opposing rushers by our complete inability to find an adequite offensive line.

That said. I just don't think he is a #1 pick caliber QB....Might he be above average with an excellent supporting cast, sure. But he is nobodies superstar.

And I am sorry.....I just don't believe stats tell the whole tale. His quarterback rating is good, but if you take away that first scripted drive every game....and ignore what he does against 2nd units and teams ahead by 20+ points in 4th quarters (the NFL version of garbage time) I imagine his numbers bear out what is obvious to anyone watching the games. That he might not be the biggest problem. But he doesn't seem to be part of the solution either.

Capers was an AWFUL coach. But he has had a modicum of success in the past. Carr was not PERMITTED to change a run play to a pass at the line of scrimmage, only the reverse. Surely even Capers wouldn't have handcuffed him in this way if he had shown any aptitude for making good decisions at the line. (That said in fairness...last year when they momentarily took those chains off him in the first half against the Rams...he looked pretty good).

Anyway...I hope the pro-hairdo faction is right, because that would mean that the Texans have one more piece in place of a puzzle that doesn't have a lot of pieces. But I think its definately a stretch to think that Carr could lead us deep into the playoffs with an average OL and running game.

[Summer Song Giver]

I listed 15 above I would take or consider over Carr to build my team. That still puts him average among starters if you take every single of my 15. Care to add more?

Well, i think Sage is a better option than Polly Miss Panics, so I'd pretty much rather have anyone. We aren't going anywhere with P.M.P. so what is the point of him being here? And to whoever pulls out the but,but,but arguments for David; call me when he is the starting QB for a playoff team and if he ever is it will be because of his excellence at *managing the game


*note the obvious negative connotation.

[Groogrux]

Yeah. It's no longer opinion. It's fact. David Carr rocks the casbah. No one can disagree. Anyone who thinks otherwise is misguided.

IMO, what he's done this year with absolutely no running game to speak of shows that Carr can and probably will be a very good QB in this league.

[Summer Song Giver]

IMO, what he's done this year with absolutely no running game to speak of shows that Carr can and probably will be a very good QB in this league.


again, youd think we were 4-1, wish i had your optimism.

[leebigez]

When i look at a qb, i look at leadership 1st, then i look at his 3rd success rate. David Carr has played well, but numbers lie. The reason the cowboys were able to keep shortening the field was because Carr doesn't throw the ball down the field enough. If defenses feel you will not throw the ball over their head, they creep up ever play till you see R.Williams playing as a lb. Carr never threatens down the field because he has been sacked so many time and has poor pocket presence. Not all the time its about running with the ball, most is stepping up and deliveriing the ball. I think his career is just like Dilfer. After a while even with the so called tools, people will realize that he's a ok qb, but nothing special. 3rd and 5, the qb cant throw a 3yd pass. Check the texans 3rd down effeciency and that can be directed at the qb.

[Groogrux]

again, youd think we were 4-1, wish i had your optimism.

No, but Carr has played decent. Not spectacular, not great, not amazing, but decent. On a team with a completely terrible defense and a running game that is completely non-existant. Put him on a team with a good running game and a good defense where he doesn't feel he absolutely has to score everytime he touches the ball, and you'll be singing a different tune.

David Carr is probably the last person Texans fans who have watched the game should be bitching about.

[Groogrux]

After a while even with the so called tools, people will realize that he's a ok qb, but nothing special. 3rd and 5, the qb cant throw a 3yd pass. Check the texans 3rd down effeciency and that can be directed at the qb.

The majority of third and short situations have resulted in running calls from the coaches. That's not Carr's fault.

And you can certainly win with an OK QB. See Dilfer, Trent.

Again, David Carr is pretty much the last person Texans fans should be bitching at with regards to this season. Where's the bitching about Johnson who dropped at least three passes for first downs on Sunday? Where's the bitching about some of the God-awful play calling by the coaches? Nah, forget that, David Carr isn't Joe Montana, so let's concentrate the bitching on him. :rolleyes:

[Francis3422]

Anyone that thinks Carr is better than or equal to Eli Manning , Drew Brees, Big Ben or even Leftwitch is crazy.

Desert Scar- Eli Manning has it, I hate to admit, it because I dont like the Giants. He is no Peyton, but he is no David Carr either.

Drew Brees- Guy is a winner. Not the most talented. But in wins in SD, and now NO, even if they crumble in the 2nd half. Considering he came back from Shoulder surgery.

Way better than Carr.

Leftwitch is a veteran like Carr, and while Lefty is not great, he is better than Carr. (Check this Sunday.)

Big Ben has a SB.

David may be a decent QB down the line. But this team, is at least 3 years away. Trade him for a first if you can get it I live in Houston so I kind of like the Texans, but they are a ways away.

[MadMax]

IMO, what he's done this year with absolutely no running game to speak of shows that Carr can and probably will be a very good QB in this league.

obviously i disagree. i'm not sure what he's done that's been so impressive.

[Groogrux]

Anyone that thinks Carr is better than or equal to Eli Manning , Drew Brees, Big Ben or even Leftwitch is crazy.

Desert Scar- Eli Manning has it, I hate to admit, it because I dont like the Giants. He is no Peyton, but he is no David Carr either.

Drew Brees- Guy is a winner. Not the most talented. But in wins in SD, and now NO, even if they crumble in the 2nd half. Considering he came back from Shoulder surgery.

Way better than Carr.

Leftwitch is a veteran like Carr, and while Lefty is not great, he is better than Carr. (Check this Sunday.)

Big Ben has a SB.

David may be a decent QB down the line. But this team, is at least 3 years away. Trade him for a first if you can get it I live in Houston so I kind of like the Texans, but they are a ways away.

What do all those QBs have that David Carr does not?

A running game and good defenses.

[pgabriel]

Eli Manning is overrated.

[jgreen91]

What do all those QBs have that David Carr does not?

A running game and good defenses.

Leinart had a poor running game and has an awful offensive line and he looked good last night against the #1 defense in football. He's a rookie who went 10th overall, Carr is a 4 year veteran who went #1 overall.

Could you imagina, David Carr, against the Bears defense on Monday night football? I'd say trainwreck.

[Groogrux]

Leinart had a poor running game and has an awful offensive line and he looked good last night against the #1 defense in football. He's a rookie who went 10th overall, Carr is a 4 year veteran who went #1 overall.

Could you imagina, David Carr, against the Bears defense on Monday night football? I'd say trainwreck.

I believe that if everything else had been the same, but you inserted David Carr instead of Leinart, then Carr could've done just as well. I'm not trying to take anything away from Leinart at all, but I really think the coaches called a great game for him in the first half.

Leinart did look like a trainwreck in the second until that last drive.

[Ric]

old age? used to much in Indy?? i don't know.

those are certainly possible; though, at 28, i'd argue that he's hardly "old," even by running back standards, and for three years ('01-'03), he didn't rank among the top 10 in carries, so i'm not sure that's entirely relevant, either. but, yes, i suppose those are all viable possibilities....

why are you asking me this?
because i actually don't think ANY of those are viable possibilities. i think his drop in production coincided with his move from a great team (indianapolis) to a mediocre one (arizona). period. end of story. or maybe it's just a coincidence that last year, for the 14-2 colts, james averaged 100.4 rushing yds/game (second most of his career, meaning he's actually getting better, not older or overused) and is averaging nearly 40 fewer yards/game this year with the cardinals, who've won 16 games total the past 3.5 years.

ALL great players - and edgerrin james is a no-brainer great player - struggle
without sufficient supporting talent. even quarterbacks selected first overall. i guess the frustration here is that among 100 things you could be upset about in regards to the texans, carr right now is probably 101. so why is that drum getting beaten over and over and over again?

and not just by you, but far too many others? no "winner" throughout history ever carried a team; the GREAT ones - ALL OF THEM - were surrounded by scores of talent. carr hasn't even been surrounded by a whiff of talent. and we continue to bash him because people seem too lazy to find new (read: accurate) reasons to bash the team.

his offensive line is god-awful; the running game even worse. his "best" receiver continues to drop passes (aj had 3 on sunday) and his defense is bordering on being one of the worst units in the history of football.

if you want to extract ANY enjoyment out of 2006, it's either going to come from a) watching carr improve and appreciating said advancements, or b) rooting for another team. that's the legacy of capers and casserly. if carr IS a bust, then this team is set back even further than you think.

if you harbor any hope that this turnaround can appraoch "quick," you're going to need david carr to be good. if not, it could 4-5 years before we sniff respectable.

[MR. MEOWGI]

I think that one pick was just a hell of a play by the defender. There was also a fumble. One throw by Carr really sucked. I also don't think it is Carr's fault we couldn't get a touchdown on the 1 yardline. The Texans suck more than Carr.

[MadMax]

those are certainly possible; though, at 28, i'd argue that he's hardly "old," even by running back standards, and for three years ('01-'03), he didn't rank among the top 10 in carries, so i'm not sure that's entirely relevant, either. but, yes, i suppose those are all viable possibilities....


because i actually don't think ANY of those are viable possibilities. i think his drop in production coincided with his move from a great team (indianapolis) to a mediocre one (arizona). period. end of story. or maybe it's just a coincidence that last year, for the 14-2 colts, james averaged 100.4 rushing yds/game (second most of his career, meaning he's actually getting better, not older or overused) and is averaging nearly 40 fewer yards/game this year with the cardinals, who've won 16 games total the past 3.5 years.

ALL great players - and edgerrin james is a no-brainer great player - struggle
without sufficient supporting talent. even quarterbacks selected first overall. i guess the frustration here is that among 100 things you could be upset about in regards to the texans, carr right now is probably 101. so why is that drum getting beaten over and over and over again?

and not just by you, but far too many others? no "winner" throughout history ever carried a team; the GREAT ones - ALL OF THEM - were surrounded by scores of talent. carr hasn't even been surrounded by a whiff of talent. and we continue to bash him because people seem too lazy to find new (read: accurate) reasons to bash the team.

his offensive line is god-awful; the running game even worse. his "best" receiver continues to drop passes (aj had 3 on sunday) and his defense is bordering on being one of the worst units in the history of football.

if you want to extract ANY enjoyment out of 2006, it's either going to come from a) watching carr improve and appreciating said advancements, or b) rooting for another team. that's the legacy of capers and casserly. if carr IS a bust, then this team is set back even further than you think.

if you harbor any hope that this turnaround can appraoch "quick," you're going to need david carr to be good. if not, it could 4-5 years before we sniff respectable.

i really didn't suggest that Carr wasn't a winner. i don't think he is, frankly. but it's not my argument.

there is no quick turnaround. i'd love to be wrong. but there isn't one. i'd love to be wrong about carr. i'd love to be wrong about the texans. i don't see a quick turnaround. this is one of the reasons i wanted VY in the offseason....because i never bought into the idea that we were doing anything but entirely rebuilding...so the suggestion that we didn't want to wait on VY to develop before we started winning was a non-starter to me....because i was convinced we were gonna have to wait to win, anyway. sadly, i think we may be waiting longer than i ever imagined. i never imagined the team would be THIS BAD.

i'm tired of david carr. i'm tired of the excuses. i'm tired of all of it. i hate the fact we spent a #1 pick on this guy. i hate the fact that we've refused to offer up competition for him since he's been here. i've seen enough. i know -- who cares? my decision doesn't mean jack. there are people who earn their living making these decisions who admittedly know far more than i do about all of it. but i've seen enough. i think this team needs wholesale change. i think this FRANCHISE needs wholesale change. maybe a change of scenery will allow david a chance to be a good QB somewhere else. fine.

and you guys have this misguided notion that me and others here think that merely replacing the QB will solve the problem. i've yet to read any post that states that.

completely unrelated point that you shouldn't spend much time arguing with --- John Elway is, in my opinion, the greatest NFL player I've ever seen. He did more with less than any player I've ever seen. He had very little running attack supporting the teams he took to the Super Bowl before Terrell Davis. Sammy Winder?? He had the Three Amigos who were good, but not great by any measure. They did have good defenses. But Elway was the show. And he made more out of that team than I think anyone else would have been able to.

[MadMax]

. The Texans suck more than Carr.

Carr is a Texan.

[MR. MEOWGI]

K. Garnett is a Timberwolvee.

What would the score of the game have been of Carr was a Cowboy and Bledsoe was a Texan?

[Mr. Clutch]

Elton Brand is a Clipper. I guess he sucked until the team started winning.

[leebigez]

No, but Carr has played decent. Not spectacular, not great, not amazing, but decent. On a team with a completely terrible defense and a running game that is completely non-existant. Put him on a team with a good running game and a good defense where he doesn't feel he absolutely has to score everytime he touches the ball, and you'll be singing a different tune.

David Carr is probably the last person Texans fans who have watched the game should be bitching about.

Thats my point. Why would you start any poor team with a qb? I mean build your team 1st then go get your qb. I thought the Texans shaould have draft ed a qb till yr 3.

[Mr. Clutch]

Thats my point. Why would you start any poor team with a qb? I mean build your team 1st then go get your qb. I thought the Texans shaould have draft ed a qb till yr 3.

I think if they had to do it over (or maybe if Kubiak was coach) we would have taken Peppers.

[Groogrux]

obviously i disagree. i'm not sure what he's done that's been so impressive.

I'm not sure what he's done that's been so terrible. Yes, he had a bad half on Sunday. That's about it. He is not anywhere close to the reason why we're 1-4. Hell, even if he wouldn't have thrown those INTs on Sunday, we probably still would've lost.

I hope this post pasts muster.

[Clutch]

I believe that if everything else had been the same, but you inserted David Carr instead of Leinart, then Carr could've done just as well. I'm not trying to take anything away from Leinart at all, but I really think the coaches called a great game for him in the first half.

Leinart did look like a trainwreck in the second until that last drive.

The fact that we have to debate if Carr, a QB who has been in the league for 5 years now, "could" do as well as Leinart last night is sad.

I don't see the difference between Carr against the Cowboys and Leinart against the Bears being coaching. I mean neither QB has an offensive line, neither has a running game, both have good receivers. Leinart was facing the best defense in the league by a mile... I think Chicago has given up 2 offensive touchdowns all year and both were meaningless second half TDs in complete routs? Leinart threw 2 touchdown passes in the first <I>quarter</i>. Yes, the Texans have a lot of problems unrelated to Carr, but I don't see how Carr elevated his team at all on Sunday, where Leinart did.

I don't believe Carr is the Texans' main problem -- I think he'll pan out -- but like I said in an earlier post, if they keep losing, eventually they have to get rid of him. Players on both sides of the ball have to have confidence in their leader, and 4, 5, 6 years of losing could prove too much. At some point, a fresh start is needed for both player and team.

[leebigez]

Clutch good point. I think Carr is shell shocked. I mean the yr DD ran for 1400 yrds what did he do then? I think he has talent, but in the nfl leadership is just as important. Its kinda like K.Collins had talent, but i dont think players would run through a wall for him. I think players look at the qb as doing everything neccessary to win a game nstead of woe is me. The Texans had chances to win that game, but Carr made 2 mistakes at the wrong time. I think by him never competeting for the spot didn't help either. I just think that next season is time to bring in somone to compete for the qb spot either by draft or trade. Tools are only part of the equation. Just make it happen.

[Groogrux]

The fact that we have to debate if Carr, a QB who has been in the league for 5 years now, "could" do as well as Leinart last night is sad.

I don't see the difference between Carr against the Cowboys and Leinart against the Bears being coaching. I mean neither QB has an offensive line, neither has a running game, both have good receivers. Leinart was facing the best defense in the league by a mile... I think Chicago has given up 2 offensive touchdowns all year and both were meaningless second half TDs in complete routs? Leinart threw 2 touchdown passes in the first <I>quarter</i>. Yes, the Texans have a lot of problems unrelated to Carr, but I don't see how Carr elevated his team at all on Sunday, where Leinart did.

I don't believe Carr is the Texans' main problem -- I think he'll pan out -- but like I said in an earlier post, if they keep losing, eventually they have to get rid of him. Players on both sides of the ball have to have confidence in their leader, and 4, 5, 6 years of losing could prove too much. At some point, a fresh start is needed for both player and team.

Absolutely right on all accounts. I was very impressed with both Leinart and the play calling for him. I'd like to see Carr in the shotgun more often.

[Ric]

this is one of the reasons i wanted VY in the offseason....because i never bought into the idea that we were doing anything but entirely rebuilding...so the suggestion that we didn't want to wait on VY to develop before we started winning was a non-starter to me.... because i was convinced we were gonna have to wait to win, anyway.
why aren’t you affording carr the same luxury, beyond the obvious fact his name’s not “vince young”?

i'm tired of david carr. i'm tired of the excuses. i'm tired of all of it. i hate the fact we spent a #1 pick on this guy. i hate the fact that we've refused to offer up competition for him since he's been here. i've seen enough.
and this is why i think people like me get their feathers ruffled; you sound like a guy who made his mind up in april 2002. or at least april 2006.

frankly, i have the same hatred… for bob mcnair, who hired a bunch of ****tards to run his franchise and then reacted to their ineptness with all the speed and urgency of a coma patient taking a nap.

maybe a change of scenery will allow david a chance to be a good QB somewhere else. fine.
so you think maybe a new downtown skyline, perhaps better urban developments, maybe less suburban sprawl would make carr a better a qb? those are the ingredients his game’s been missing?

or did you maybe mean better coaching? better talent? and an organization that doesn’t have its head shoved up it’s own ass?

and you guys have this misguided notion that me and others here think that merely replacing the QB will solve the problem. i've yet to read any post that states that.
yeah, no idea where we got that idea…
this is one of the reasons i wanted VY in the offseason

[Desert Scar]

Leinart had a poor running game and has an awful offensive line and he looked good last night against the #1 defense in football. He's a rookie who went 10th overall, Carr is a 4 year veteran who went #1 overall.

Could you imagina, David Carr, against the Bears defense on Monday night football? I'd say trainwreck.

The Cards have offensive weapons, and their Oline usually protected Leinart. Also, ML's passing stats are really no different than Kurt Warner's over the past 2 season with the Cards. But hey I do think ML is a keeper. But I not yet going to say he is better and has more upside than Carr. I'd probably take him over Carr, yes, but not a slam dunk yes just yet and he may not be better.


Drew Brees- Guy is a winner. Not the most talented. But in wins in SD, and now NO, even if they crumble in the 2nd half. Considering he came back from Shoulder surgery.

Way better than Carr.
.

I agree Brees is a better pro football QB than Carr right now. Would I rather have the older and less upside Brees over Carr to build a team, I don't know. Clearly in a similar situation we know which direction the Chargers went facing a similar dilemma, and so far so good.

Big Ben has a SB.


The Stealers have a superbowl and been at least to the AFC championship round despite of Big Ben. He has really sucked half his playoff games, not just sucked but really sucked, but the defense and running game (and zebras last year) allowed them to be successful some of those games.

[ima_drummer2k]

The fact that we have to debate if Carr, a QB who has been in the league for 5 years now, "could" do as well as Leinart last night is sad.
But the thing is....Carr WAS doing as well (better actually) than Leinart did last night....until the Dallas game.

I don't believe Carr is the Texans' main problem -- I think he'll pan out -- but like I said in an earlier post, if they keep losing, eventually they have to get rid of him.
You are probably right. And some here may be shocked to know that I won't be that upset. Maybe not upset at all, when I think about it.

It just seems strange to me that, seeing as how the passing game is the ONLY bright spot in this horrible excuse for a season, we're still talking about getting rid of him.

AJ has been here almost as long as Carr but no one blames him for any of the losing. I love AJ as much as the next guy, but frankly.....Carr is playing better than AJ this year.

[Ric]

The fact that we have to debate if Carr, a QB who has been in the league for 5 years now, "could" do as well as Leinart last night is sad.
you’re missing the big picture; we’re comparing our not-yet 5-year old franchise to arguably one of the saddest, most incredibly inept organizations in all of professional sports the past 25 years.

THAT’S what’s sad. and it has NOTHING to do with david freaking carr.

Yes, the Texans have a lot of problems unrelated to Carr, but I don't see how Carr elevated his team at all on Sunday, where Leinart did.
it’s funny how players can be romanticized, especially when their private parts are jammed down the throats of those paid good money to objectively cover the event (yes, tony k and joey t, i mean you). leinart and carr both led their teams to points on their opening drive.

leinart was 5/5 for 46 yards and TD; carr was 4/5 for 41 yards and a FG. both extremely impressive. edgerrin james rushed for 33 yards on the cardinal drive; the texans rushed for 34….. THE ENTIRE GAME. probably carr’s fault – he wasn’t elevating the guys around him!!!

otherwise, the “great” matt leinart led arizona on scoring drives of 25, 10 and 22 yards in the first half, courtesy of three chicago turnovers. when chicago wasn’t handing leinart excellent field position, he was actually average if not below average.

in the second half, he was 11/24 for 107 yds, 0 tds, 0 ints and a fumble CHI returned for a TD. he was 3/9 of third down passes, meaning six drives ended when he couldn’t convert. no big deal; he’d been so magically, cantonesque great in the first quarter, who needs to deliver in the second half when the other team is mounting a comeback?

my guess is that carr and about 75 other nearly functioning qbs could have done what leinart did last night. not an indictment of carr, but of leinart. he was average, at best, last night.

[jgreen91]

Did you guys see when Leinart stared down Urlacher before he snapped the ball? I loved that especially from the rookie. It showed leadership and confidence.

[percicles]

Did you guys see when Leinart stared down Urlacher before he snapped the ball? I loved that especially from the rookie. It showed leadership and confidence.

Did you see when rookie (5th round pick) Mark Anderson sacked Matty Boy and caused a FFum that led to a Bears TD. Subsequently, he has 5 more sacks than the $50mill bust known as Mario Williams.

[leebigez]

Did you see when rookie (5th round pick) Mark Anderson sacked Matty Boy and caused a FFum that led to a Bears TD. Subsequently, he has 5 more sacks than the $50mill bust known as Mario Williams.

I guess it has nothing to do with playing ahead the every game or Tommie Harris and Brown surronded by urlacher and Briggs? On his sack they didn't even block him.

[Nick]

Clearly, if you're not blaming the organization as a whole... you're blaming Carr.

But, you can't really go out there and be actively doing both at the same time, without looking a tad bit disingenous (and thus the reason for the arguments of Ric, msn, etc.) ... "The Texans have a lot of problems, top to bottom... but that David Carr is bad, and should be traded." :rolleyes:

Calling out one player, but still aknowledging the organization has problems overall, and yet still going back to criticize that ONE player gets you absolutely NOWHERE... unless you just don't like David Carr regardless of what he does (which I suspect is a good many of you).

Well, guess what...
1. Andre Johnson's development has been hampered... still drops passes.
2. Dunta Robinson is regressing as a CB... looked better his rookie year.
3. Jason Babin/Travis Johnson have yet to play like a first round pick and could be cut by the end of the year.
4. We just cut a guy yesterday that we gave up a future 2nd and 3rd round pick for... I don't need to put a list of the current all-pros, and past HOFers that were drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Lets just say... we overpaid.
5. We just went through a draft where we drafted LIKE AN EXPANSION team in year 5... drafting a DE, a MLB, and two O-lineman in our first 3 rounds. And yet, the team never had that sort of draft in its first 4 years when the team had losing records, and needed to shore up all those positions before they addressed QB, RB, WR, or CB. That invalidates every "well, its year 5, carr and the team should be great by now..." argument.
6. A rookie coach, with an entirely different offensive/defensive philosophy, and no prior experience at re-building a team, has just been brought in to re-build a franchise... a franchise that was never "built" in the first place (hence, the misnomer of "re-building.").


But yea... lets continue to discuss Carr as the ring-leader in all these problems. Lets change that before we address anything else. Lets spend more time discussing why Carr sucks, instead of discussing the state of the franchise AS A WHOLE.

[Nick]

Clutch good point. I think Carr is shell shocked. I mean the yr DD ran for 1400 yrds what did he do then? I think he has talent, but in the nfl leadership is just as important. Its kinda like K.Collins had talent, but i dont think players would run through a wall for him. I think players look at the qb as doing everything neccessary to win a game nstead of woe is me. The Texans had chances to win that game, but Carr made 2 mistakes at the wrong time. I think by him never competeting for the spot didn't help either. I just think that next season is time to bring in somone to compete for the qb spot either by draft or trade. Tools are only part of the equation. Just make it happen.

Kerry Collins has also "led" two different teams to NFC Championship games, and one of them to a Super Bowl.

[Clutch]

I think people aren't reading my posts if they think I'm some sort of Carr-hater. Far from it. I'm pulling for him. But I agree with MadMax that there are quite a few who try to keep him free from all blame, which is crazy.

leinart was 5/5 for 46 yards and TD; carr was 4/5 for 41 yards and a FG. both extremely impressive. edgerrin james rushed for 33 yards on the cardinal drive; the texans rushed for 34….. THE ENTIRE GAME. probably carr’s fault – he wasn’t elevating the guys around him!!!

That's pretty misleading. Yes, James ran for 31 yards (I'll spot you 2) on that drive, but he had 55 for the game on 36 carries. The Cardinals rushed for 66 yards on more than twice as many carries than the Texans….. THE ENTIRE GAME. They gained fewer yards per carry than the Texans. Yet here you are using the same running game efficiency as the reason for Leinart's success and Carr's failure.

I'd equate Carr's initial FG drive with Leinart's 5/6 for 38 yard drive in the fourth quarter that put the Cardinals in a position to win, which was mysteriously absent in your "but hey, who needs to deliver in the second half" rant.

my guess is that carr and about 75 other nearly functioning qbs could have done what leinart did last night. not an indictment of carr, but of leinart. he was average, at best, last night.

You're right on that being a guess (and I'll reiterate again, missing the big picture or not, it's sad that you have to guess that Carr "could" have done what Leinart did). Simply zero way to prove it -- maybe right, maybe not -- but for facts, we know that Brett Favre, Jon Kitna, Brad Johnson, Matt Hasselbeck and J.P. Losman (who combined for 1 TD and 9 turnovers) couldn't do that against the Bears.

Leinart's performance? Not bad. Given it was his second start in the pros? Pretty good. Given it was against the Bears' defense? Pretty damn good.

But since we're taking guesses, mine would be that if Carr did what Leinart did last night and the Texans lost the way the Cardinals did to the Bears, you and many others here would be all over Carr's jock like it was dipped in Wonka's finest.

[hatemavs4life]

I agree with you this team has bigger problems to deal with. But Carr is part of the problem. He's the poster-boy of a failed culture. I don't want to see him be given a free pass after another losing season again. Not again.

Yes, on this point I agree. Here's a crazy thought, do you think Kuby already knows this and is simply trying to get Carr to show good numbers to up his trade value so we could stockpile some draft picks or to possibly get other upgradable FA talent?

Obviously just "cutting" Carr is not an option. I agree though if he hasnt shown leadership by now, he probably wont. It's a shame because he really put up some hideous numbers at Fresno State. A very good university albeit, but success in the collegiate ranks doesnt always translate to the big leagues unfortunately. Plus, his development the first four years was nonexistent because of already aforementioned inept, incompetent coaching a thousand times over. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That's the only logical thing I can come up with ... Carr will probably be shopped somewhere to the highest bidder. The better his numbers are the better trade bait he will be. On a team that has all other pieces in place just needs a QB, he may be a good fit. Just a thought.

[hatemavs4life]

Kerry Collins has also "led" two different teams to NFC Championship games, and one of them to a Super Bowl.


Dont mention the Super Bore (Giants vs Ravens) 34-7. He threw 3 picks and the score wasnt even that close. The Giants were never even in that game at all. Afterall, he exhausted his good inconsistent with a 41-0 shellacking of the Vikes in the NFC championship two weeks before. So bad inconsistent was soon to follow. :D

[HillBoy]

Ironically Drew Brees is the perfect example for and against Carr. His 5th year late blooming in San Diego (after the drafting of Philip Rivers) showed that quarterbacks can "get it" late. On the other hand, Brees arrival in New Orleans shows how much a QB change can really impact a team.

Look at Matt Leinart tonight. Has possibly the worst offensive line in football, going up against the best defense in the NFL in perhaps the last 4 years ... and he throws 2 TD passes in the first half.

I don't necessarily blame Carr... he's been pretty good this year (up until the Cowboys game). But if the losses just continue to pile up, at some point, you just got to make a change.
I'm forced to agree with you but with the caveat that you should always be very careful what you ask for because you may just get it.

I, too, watched Matt Leinart look like an up and coming Marino last night and all I could think about was what David Carr would have looked like had he gone to an organization that didn't hang him out to dry like this one did. At the same time, I also wondered just what Leinart would like after getting sacked for over 200 times.

The sands of the hourglass are rapidly dwindling for David Carr in Houston and perhaps after all that he has been subjected to here it might be better if he got a chance to start over elsewhere. In many ways, he reminds me of Dan Pastorini and Jim Plunkett. Pastorini because of the identical treatment both young QBs received from inept football organizations. Plunkett because both were considered to be busts when they were unable to realize their "promise" on the field whereas Plunkett was able to resurrect his career in Oakland and lead them to two Superbowl wins. One could only hope that Carr gets the same opportunity.

[HillBoy]

Clearly, if you're not blaming the organization as a whole... you're blaming Carr.

But, you can't really go out there and be actively doing both at the same time, without looking a tad bit disingenous (and thus the reason for the arguments of Ric, msn, etc.) ... "The Texans have a lot of problems, top to bottom... but that David Carr is bad, and should be traded." :rolleyes:

Calling out one player, but still aknowledging the organization has problems overall, and yet still going back to criticize that ONE player gets you absolutely NOWHERE... unless you just don't like David Carr regardless of what he does (which I suspect is a good many of you).

Well, guess what...
1. Andre Johnson's development has been hampered... still drops passes.
2. Dunta Robinson is regressing as a CB... looked better his rookie year.
3. Jason Babin/Travis Johnson have yet to play like a first round pick and could be cut by the end of the year.
4. We just cut a guy yesterday that we gave up a future 2nd and 3rd round pick for... I don't need to put a list of the current all-pros, and past HOFers that were drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Lets just say... we overpaid.
5. We just went through a draft where we drafted LIKE AN EXPANSION team in year 5... drafting a DE, a MLB, and two O-lineman in our first 3 rounds. And yet, the team never had that sort of draft in its first 4 years when the team had losing records, and needed to shore up all those positions before they addressed QB, RB, WR, or CB. That invalidates every "well, its year 5, carr and the team should be great by now..." argument.
6. A rookie coach, with an entirely different offensive/defensive philosophy, and no prior experience at re-building a team, has just been brought in to re-build a franchise... a franchise that was never "built" in the first place (hence, the misnomer of "re-building.").


But yea... lets continue to discuss Carr as the ring-leader in all these problems. Lets change that before we address anything else. Lets spend more time discussing why Carr sucks, instead of discussing the state of the franchise AS A WHOLE.
Exactly! But I can understand the depth of discontent with this franchise. A lot of these guys weren't around for the bad old days of the Houston Oilers who made what we're seeing today look like childs play. That team was a running joke for decades with a big joke for an owner and a long line of jokes for coaches. And to top it off, they turn their backs on this city and raise their collective hind legs in everyone's face on their way to Nashville. For many long suffering football fans in Houston, the Texans represented hope and promise and now that promise has been dashed and all that hope has been destroyed.

Guys like MadMax are simply beaten down from all of the pointless losing. They just want this to end. It's far easier to blame Carr because he's still here while Capers & Casserly - the architects of this little disaster - have moved on to "greener" pastures. They don't want to try to understand anymore - thay just want this football nightmare to stop. And, I can respect that feeling because what they are feeling now, I have felt MANY times before with the Oilers and it sucks just as much today as it did back then.

[Ric]

That's pretty misleading. Yes, James ran for 31 yards (I'll spot you 2) on that drive, but he had 55 for the game on 36 carries. The Cardinals rushed for 66 yards on more than twice as many carries than the Texans….. THE ENTIRE GAME.
exactly. once the running game abandoned leinart, he looked fairly ordinary, didn't he? why didn't he elevate it with his amazing powers to... elevate things?

I'd equate Carr's initial FG drive with Leinart's 5/6 for 38 yard drive in the fourth quarter that put the Cardinals in a position to win, which was mysteriously absent in your "but hey, who needs to deliver in the second half" rant.
well, if he hadn’t fumbled or thrown incompletions on 6 third down plays in the 2nd half, they likely wouldn't have needed a last second drive. but sure, he looked good; poised - leinart is a big-time talent who's been in the spotlight for two years as an amateur. but you know what? carr looked pretty good his rookie year, too, before the franchise left him for dead. notice, carr won his first-ever start; leinart’s still looking for his.

Simply zero way to prove it -- maybe right, maybe not -- but for facts, we know that Brett Favre, Jon Kitna, Brad Johnson, Matt Hasselbeck and J.P. Losman (who combined for 1 TD and 9 turnovers) couldn't do that against the Bears.
i didn't realize each of those qbs were handed six turnovers and three drives that started inside the bears' 35-yard line.

But since we're taking guesses, mine would be that if Carr did what Leinart did last night and the Texans lost the way the Cardinals did to the Bears, you and many others here would be all over Carr's jock like it was dipped in Wonka's finest.
carr's done what leinart did last night all year long prior to his abysmal second-half performance sunday.

leinart posted a 88.6 qb rating for the game; carr's posted a 94.9 rating for the season. my guess is that if the texan defense was capable of generating turnovers (especially if they could generate 6, including 4 in the first half) and the team was capable of generating any kind of running game, carr could easily do what leinart did last night. and, again, im guessing an innumerable # of quality quarterbacks could also generate 3, less-than-30-yard drives in a game that generates only 13 points.

in fact, if carr HAD been given those advanatges and, like leinart, only generated 1 td and 2 fgs, he'd be crucified in here.

carr's not blameless; hell, i gave up on him last year and had much the same attitude that MM has now. but i've seen him make marked improvements this year and have been encouraged by them. i'm waiting for another facet - ANY - to join him. until then, he. and the team, is going to struggle mightily.

[proudgreek]

David Car should not be with the texans. Our coaches made a horrible choice of not drafting Vince Young. He can throw, run, and is not afraid to find a pocket and take it. We have a horrible offensive line, and if our QB is afraid to run the ball, then he should not be QB

[proudgreek]

David Carr should not be on the Texans. I'm sure our coaches deeply regret not drafting Vince Young. Because our Offensive Line is horrible, we need a qb who is not afraid to the run the ball. Carr is afraid to find a pocket, and VY isnt

[MadMax]

yeah, no idea where we got that idea…

ric, if you bothered reading my posts instead of worrying about cute responses, you'd know that i never said i thought VY would come in and win immediately. i knew the texans would lose, with or without him...so i didn't see any harm in developing a new QB along the way.

i'm tired of being patient with david carr. 4.5 years in. the guy isn't a playmaker. he's a game manager, at best. those are replaceable. i'd rather gamble big on upside...particularly when you have absolutely nothing to lose.

this team needs some playmakers on both sides of the ball. QB is just as good a position as any else to have one situated.

[Luckyazn]

What do all those QBs have that David Carr does not?

A running game and good defenses.


DAVID CARR WOULD STILL SUCKS if you put him on the


GIANTS
CINN
JACKSONVILLE

or ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE .... DUDE SUCKSSSS!!!!!!!!!

[ima_drummer2k]

DAVID CARR WOULD STILL SUCKS......

DUDE SUCKSSSS!!!!!!!!!
How can you argue with such sound logic and thoughtful analysis. :rolleyes:

[slowmustang]

People do realize that Carr is always the 2nd rushing QB in the league right?

[H-Town Info]

DAVID CARR WOULD STILL SUCKS if you put him on the


GIANTS
CINN
JACKSONVILLE

or ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE .... DUDE SUCKSSSS!!!!!!!!!


:rolleyes:

[Ric]

ric, if you bothered reading my posts instead of worrying about cute responses, you'd know that i never said i thought VY would come in and win immediately.
and nowhere in my (i prefer "rip-roaringly hilarious" to "cute") response did i make that implication.

but you can't have your cake and eat it, too, MM - you don't think david carr is going to win here, right? so we need to cut our losses? and to that end, oh, by the way, vy should be the qb because he's a winner. am i warm?

no one with an iq above functioning idiot expects immediate results with any aspect of this franchise.

i knew the texans would lose, with or without him...so i didn't see any harm in developing a new QB along the way.
why does the qb have to be "new"? if they developed carr (which they never have), would you be ok with that? or will you still "hate" that he's their qb?

i'm tired of being patient with david carr. 4.5 years in. the guy isn't a playmaker. he's a game manager, at best. those are replaceable. i'd rather gamble big on upside...particularly when you have absolutely nothing to lose.
right, more sheep-sounding vy blather. got it.

here's the thing, though, MM: kubiak sees that upside in carr. he had a chance to take vy and jettison carr, or just jettison carr, and he chose not to. considering it's the FIRST time in carr's 4.5 years that anyone within the organization has shown him any support, i'm willing to give kubiak the benefit of the doubt.

and so far, he's been ok.

not sure you could answer this objectively, but say this was carr's first year. it's not, i know - there's an inherent problem in pushing the reboot button five years in, i get that. but just for a second, assume it is - how would you rate him thus far?

because that's how i'm taking this; years 1-4 don't exist. not carr's fault - i blame mcnair, casserly and capers; moron all of them. and next year, when they turnover even more of the roster, it's gonna look like '02-'05 didn't. casserly and capers screwed this thing up SOOOOOOOO massively, i'm willing to give kubiak some space to try and right the ship.

it's like he took over a losing college program that then got the death penalty.

[hatemavs4life]

How can you argue with such sound logic and thoughtful analysis. :rolleyes:

LOL. Priceless post. :D

[Nick]

because that's how i'm taking this; years 1-4 don't exist. not carr's fault - i blame mcnair, casserly and capers; moron all of them. and next year, when they turnover even more of the roster, it's gonna look like '02-'05 didn't. casserly and capers screwed this thing up SOOOOOOOO massively, i'm willing to give kubiak some space to try and right the ship.

Exactly how I'm looking at it as well.

Of course, the people arguing with you are going to come back and say, "But, years 1-4 did happen... you can't erase that... you can't erase the damage to Carr's psyche (suddenly, everybody's an amateur psychologist), you can't erase the "loser mentality" that goes along with Carr (so if you lose 4 years in a row, for a team that never had anything to begin with, you're a loser for life)... its all just another excuse for Carr (or its a fact)."

Seriously... there's way too much evidence that years 1-4 were the most worthless years of any franchise likely in NFL history (the new Cleveland Browns are close, given their current state). Thus, how can you evaluate ANYBODY on this team, with any sort of credibility, justifiability, or accuracy?

When you have only 9 out of the 21 picks remaining that Charley had in the first four rounds during his tenure (meaning the rest either failed, or were traded away in failed trades)... that's all the evidence I need to see that EVERYBODY gets a fresh start. EVERYBODY... Carr, AJ, the O-line, the D-line, the coaching staff, the announcers, the ground crew, the roof operaters, the vending machine staff... EVERYBODY.

[rhester]

but you can't have your cake and eat it, too, MM - you don't think david carr is going to win here, right? so we need to cut our losses? and to that end, oh, by the way, vy should be the qb because he's a winner. am i warm?

no one with an iq above functioning idiot expects immediate results with any aspect of this franchise.


why does the qb have to be "new"? if they developed carr (which they never have), would you be ok with that? or will you still "hate" that he's their qb?


right, more sheep-sounding vy blather. got it.

here's the thing, though, MM: kubiak sees that upside in carr. he had a chance to take vy and jettison carr, or just jettison carr, and he chose not to. considering it's the FIRST time in carr's 4.5 years that anyone within the organization has shown him any support, i'm willing to give kubiak the benefit of the doubt.

and so far, he's been ok.

not sure you could answer this objectively, but say this was carr's first year. it's not, i know - there's an inherent problem in pushing the reboot button five years in, i get that. but just for a second, assume it is - how would you rate him thus far?

because that's how i'm taking this; years 1-4 don't exist. not carr's fault - i blame mcnair, casserly and capers; moron all of them. and next year, when they turnover even more of the roster, it's gonna look like '02-'05 didn't. casserly and capers screwed this thing up SOOOOOOOO massively, i'm willing to give kubiak some space to try and right the ship.

it's like he took over a losing college program that then got the death penalty.

That's a little personal there... ease up a little- the following are counter points, be reasonable.

1. VY is not a prospect because he is a 'winner' but because he has great athletic ability, shown he was a very good college passer and consistently made big plays in college. - His college career was similar to Montana's
2. There are lots of people who expected immediate improvement of the Texans record. Let's wait and see.
3. To say Carr was never developed is unfair. He is playing to the same level he played in 2004 with fewer sacks and fewer mistakes YTD. No one expects him to make the kind of strides at this stage that a rookie QB makes in the first 3 seasons given playing time. Granted on a better team Carr could certainly get better results. But I think as far as his development he was just as good as his first pro game against Dallas as he was his last pro game against Dallas, think about it.
4. Developing VY is a separate issue from developing Carr. One is a rookie and one is a 4 yr vet. All the talk about Carr got poor coaching might be true (hard to prove) but when the team was 7-9 in their 3rd season everyone was shouting how on track everything was. Remember poor coaching is just one thing to blame like- trade the QB. It all comes down to on the field performance. The things I don't like about Carr are not play calling or the talent around him. It is the way he handles the QB position.
5. If this was Carr's first yr. I would rate him very high for a rookie.
6. I'm willing to give Kubiak a chance without a doubt he has brought change and I think has shown some reason for hope. I don't think Kubiak did the right thing in the long run by endorsing Carr but I understand why he did it. And I think Carr is living up to what Kubiak expected to a point. He is playing solid ball. The problem I see is that Carr is not a playmaker at the position. He doesn't sustain drives and he doesn't make big plays. Kubiak and the rest of us will find out eventually if Carr is the right QB to take the team to the playoffs.

In summary, if Carr takes us to the playoffs I will be pleasantly surprised.

[Ric]

Of course, the people arguing with you are going to come back and say, "But, years 1-4 did happen... you can't erase that... you can't erase the damage to Carr's psyche (suddenly, everybody's an amateur psychologist), you can't erase the "loser mentality" that goes along with Carr (so if you lose 4 years in a row, for a team that never had anything to begin with, you're a loser for life)... its all just another excuse for Carr (or its a fact)."
it's sad, really. i wrote an article about manning and palmer. here's what i said about manning:
Manning's offensive coordinator his rookie year, Tom Moore, will be his offensive coordinator Sunday. His top wide receiver then is the same guy, too (Marvin Harrison). And his blind-side has been protected for nine consecutive years by not only left tackle Tarik Glenn but also offensive line coach Howard Mudd, who, like Moore, has held his current position since 1998. That's stability, ladies and gentlemen, and if you don't think it's been a positive factor in Manning's ascension, you're crazier than Joe Cullen. But wait - it gets more... uhm, stabler.

Between the 2001 and 2005 seasons (the Tony Dungy era), Manning's offensive coordinator (Moore), quarterbacks coach (Jim Caldwell), running back (Edgerrin James), top two receivers (Harrison and Reggie Wayne), left tackle (Glenn), center (Pro Bowler Jeff Saturday), and right tackle (Ryan Diem) never changed (give or take various injuries). That encompasses 80 of Manning's 129 regular season starts. In 2003, they added tight end Dallas Clark and third wide receiver Brandon Stokley.

The only change you'll notice this Sunday among that group is the absence of James, who fled to Arizona this winter. But rather than arrogantly assuming the best offense in football could just stick any ol' Tom, Dick or Wali into their system, the Colts used a first round pick on running back Joseph Addai. Once he gets on the same page as the rest of his teammates (they have, after all, been playing together since 2003), he'll be the fourth 1st round pick the team has added to its offensive starters since Manning arrived. That's right - the hands down best offense in football the past seven years (they've finished among the top 4 in total offense every year since 1999 except 2002) has used four of their last seven 1st round picks on offense.
and here's what i said about palmer:
In place when Palmer was selected in 2003 were six players who've been to a combined 11 Pro Bowls: WRs Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh, RBs Corey Dillon (since traded) and Rudi Johnson, and tackles Willie Anderson and Levi Jones. Plus, like Manning, he's only had one offensive coordinator (Bob Bratkowski) and one offensive line coach (Paul Alexander) in his career. And we should be surprised that Palmer was one of only two quarterbacks last year with a rating of 100+? (Care to guess who the other one was?)
now consider what carr's had around him. james allen, jonathan wells, stacey mack, jabar gaffney, corey bradford, no tight end, and a list of mediocre and worse OL that makes my stomach ache to recall.

EVERYBODY... the announcers... EVERYBODY.
no, no - vandermeer, or whatever his name is, remains a douchetard and should be taken behind a barn and put out of his vegetable-like existence; he sucks hard.

[Ric]

1. VY is not a prospect because he is a 'winner' but because he has great athletic ability, shown he was a very good college passer and consistently made big plays in college. - His college career was similar to Montana's
montana was a third round draft pick passed over by every nfl team twice; they weren't similiar.

and carr wasn't some II-A retard; the guy put up better numbers as a senior than vy did last year.

2. There are lots of people who expected immediate improvement of the Texans record. Let's wait and see.
frankly, those people are morons. or brain dead. they were 2-14 last year.

But I think as far as his development he was just as good as his first pro game against Dallas as he was his last pro game against Dallas, think about it.
think about what? that he randomly played as poorly sunday as he did in some arbitraily-chosen game four years ago? dids brett favre not develop because his last game was as awful as his first game?

carr's making strides after being left for dead by the organization. it's the first time in four years he hasn't been surrounded by morons and scrubs.

4. ..All the talk about Carr got poor coaching might be true (hard to prove) but when the team was 7-9 in their 3rd season everyone was shouting how on track everything was.
i wasn't. he was awful in a mid-season, four game stretch against '04 playoff teams in which the texans were outscored, something like, 125-47.

carr regressed tremendously the final 9 weeks of the 2004 season when the schedule got harder; he was a loooooong way from being fully developed. unfortunatley, our organization was too blind to see this.

6. The problem I see is that Carr is not a playmaker at the position.
neither was troy aikman; that's why they called irvin "the playmaker." qbs are rarely "playmakers" without someone else to help carry that burden. no qb wins by his lonesome; name a qb who won and i'll name a great coach, rb, wr, te, or ol, or some combination that that guy played with.

[Desert Scar]

This should not regress to Carr versus VY. 1) that opp is lone gone, 2) the polarization of VY on here is unfair to Carr.

Jake Plummer had a high 60s (very poor) passer rating with the Cards (6 years), he has a high 80s (excellent) on with the Broncos (4 years). Yet Plummer is the same QB (if fact his best Cards years were early), it is his support that is different. Now most of Plummer's passes are in situations opponents have to play run 1st and punting isn't too bad because his D keeps him ahead (he doesn't have to force things).

I'd rather have Carr (75 rating in 6 years on a bad team) personally, and I think only a handful of QBs would make the Texans better or make their prospects better. I don't think he will ever be able to truly carry a team like Brady or McNabb, but get some kind of running game and defense and Carr has a great chance for the pro bowl.

[rhester]

I don't think getting rid of Carr is the answer at this point.
I have only pointed out what I don't like about him.

And my biggest beef is that we had a shot at VY and didn't pull the trigger.

So for me it is a VY vs. Carr until I get over it.

In the end I will know if it was a mistake as you all will also, when both QB's finish their careers.

It is all about winning in the NFL, no matter what excuses you make.

[msn]

no matter what excuses you make.
For the umpteenth time, those are not excuses.

I get sick of seeing this uniformed BS take.

NOONE--Not one person--has offered ANY compelling evidence to counter the FACTS that have caused this organization to suck so hard.

The FACTS indicate that DCarr is the least of this organization's worries.

Those aren't "excuses".

[rhester]

For the umpteenth time, those are not excuses.

I get sick of seeing this uniformed BS take.

NOONE--Not one person--has offered ANY compelling evidence to counter the FACTS that have caused this organization to suck so hard.

The FACTS indicate that DCarr is the least of this organization's worries.

Those aren't "excuses".

settle down-

the 'excuses' comment didn't have to do with Carr in particular.
What I mean is you can blame coaching, management, talent, injuries, individual players, etc etc and all the excuses don't get you anywhere.

When it is all said and done the team that wins has what it takes.

The Oilers had all kind of excuses. But Pitts went to the Super Bowl.

Indy has excuses but they don't have a Lombardi trophy.

All the passion for the Texans is understandable but I don't blame DC for their record.

I BLAME CASSERLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's my excuse

[imoffg33]

I should have posted this here, these threads seem to be randomly jumping across subjects

I think Carr still has the chance to be a good quality QB. He has been a good QB most of the season. A bad 2nd half against one of the most athletic defenses (Dallas) when they got on a roll, that could happen to 90% of the NFLers.

Here is a short list of the guys I would definetly take my chance to build by team around right now over Carr.
-Brady
-McNabb
-Manning (P)
-Hasselbeck (the most underrated QB in the league, excellent passer and good athlete, could be the 4th best overall)
-Palmer (all the tools, but leadership?)
-Vick (has issues he needs to work on, but Atl's W/L with him versus w/o him show his impact)
-Young (ridiculous upside, already leading)

Carr may or may not be better than....
Roethlisberger (current most overrated individual in the league, OK, well maybe tied with R. Bush)
Leftwich
Rivers
Eli
Leinart
Cutler
Brees
Alex Smith
--Most of the 2nd groups have been with offensively loaded teams (Ben, Eli, Rivers, ML, Brees), some with a defense too (that allows them to throw in low-risk high success situations--see what this has done to Jake Plummer's career), so I can't say with confidence Carr has worse prospects given the same situation OR we just don't have enough information at this point (Smith, Cutler). Also, Eli has looked sucky and personally chunked many games in his short career despite a good supporting cast (I think he gets the benefit of the doubt and hasn't been crucified simply b/c he is a Manning, though he is finally playing decent this year). Now I'd probably go with some of the younger ones in the above group over Carr to build a team (Leftwich, Rivers, Ben, ML, Smith, Eli)--but I can't say with all confidence they are much better right now or that their upside is all that much greater.

Carr is worse than vick??? Really???
Carr is worse than vince young???? REALLY???
Carr is better than Roethlisberger????? ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS?????
Carr is better than Phillip Rivers????? HUH??????
CARR IS BETTER THAN ELI FREAKING MANNING???? ARE YOU RETARTED???
Carr is better than Matt Leinart??? HOW?????
And explain how Roethlisberger is the most overrated person in the league. Humm 15-1 in his first season and leads them to 2 postseason appearances in 2 seasons. Oh, and need i mention that he is the youngest QB to do that... EVER!!!! And yet Carr is better than him
Since we are talking about quarterbacking skills, he is obviously better than vick and young, who are punt returners that you are putting behind center. i'm pretty sure if you put jerome mathis in at quarterback, you could get the same production out of him as you would with vick or young.
Phillip Rivers only sat for a few years (something that the texans should have done with carr) and he is only having a fantastic season.
i dont even need to say anything about eli manning because that was just a stupid statement.

[imoffg33]

Anyone who thinks they know this for a fact after five NFL games knows absolutely nothing about sports.
At least there is someone else in houston that has a brain.
"OH MARIO WILLIAMS IS A BUST"
he has played 5 nfl games. get a clue.

[Clutch]

exactly. once the running game abandoned leinart, he looked fairly ordinary, didn't he? why didn't he elevate it with his amazing powers to... elevate things?

I realize your main goal here is the one-liner, but are you actually saying that Matt Leinart did not elevate the Cardinals Monday? Again, he threw two touchdown passes against a Hall-of-Fame caliber defense that held QBs to 1 touchdown and 9 turnovers in the previous 5 games. No matter how you slice it -- his RB ran for 4 yards a carry on one drive, he got good field position -- he still has to break the red-zone defense of the Chicago Bears.

notice, carr won his first-ever start; leinart’s still looking for his.

Oh my, where to begin. We could start by comparing the 2002 Dallas Cowboys to the 2006 Chicago Bears. We could say David Carr was 1-5 through 6 games. We could say David Carr threw 9 touchdowns and 15 interceptions in 16 starts that year and so far Matt Leinart has 4 touchdowns and 1 interception through 2. We could also mention that Leinart could easily be 2-0 if Neil Rackers had kicked last second field-goals.

i didn't realize each of those qbs were handed six turnovers and three drives that started inside the bears' 35-yard line.

LOL. Let me repeat: 1 touchdown, 9 turnovers. Spin it, big guy. Maybe next you can tell us how Ahman Green's 5.5 yards a carry blinded Brett Favre.

carr's done what leinart did last night all year long prior to his abysmal second-half performance sunday.

So, in a nutshell, what you're saying is that prior to the Dallas game, Carr has performed about as well as "75 other nearly functioning qbs" and that he's been "average, at best".

Along with changing your tune that Leinart played well last night comes your shift from this team's problems have "NOTHING to do with david freaking carr" to "Carr's not blameless". I said Carr didn't elevate his team Sunday, which you didn't like, now you say he was "abysmal" in the second half.

I've stated clearly in this thread that Carr still can pan out and that he's been pretty good this year up until this game, so um, can you get back with me when you disagree? Other than the need to put on this glorified alpha male routine, I don't see your point.

[DonnyMost]

thank god clutch is here to respond, otherwise i'd be banging my head against the keyboard right now.

[Icehouse]

Carr doesn't suck, but I wouldn't call him good. He is an average QB. Nothing wrong with that, unless his salary is too high for the typical average QB. I have no idea what they usually make........

[Desert Scar]

Carr is worse than vick??? Really???
Carr is worse than vince young???? REALLY???
Carr is better than Roethlisberger????? ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS?????
Carr is better than Phillip Rivers????? HUH??????
CARR IS BETTER THAN ELI FREAKING MANNING???? ARE YOU RETARTED???
Carr is better than Matt Leinart??? HOW?????
And explain how Roethlisberger is the most overrated person in the league. Humm 15-1 in his first season and leads them to 2 postseason appearances in 2 seasons. Oh, and need i mention that he is the youngest QB to do that... EVER!!!! And yet Carr is better than him
Since we are talking about quarterbacking skills, he is obviously better than vick and young, who are punt returners that you are putting behind center. i'm pretty sure if you put jerome mathis in at quarterback, you could get the same production out of him as you would with vick or young.
Phillip Rivers only sat for a few years (something that the texans should have done with carr) and he is only having a fantastic season.
i dont even need to say anything about eli manning because that was just a stupid statement.

Do you have trouble reading?? The exact quote in my 2nd group is "Carr may or may not be better than....". I even went on to list a number of players I'd probably choose 1st, ML, Ben, Eli, Leftwich, Rivers and Smith, but it would not surprise me if Carr ever gets in as favorable situtation as those guys he would be equal or better.

Like I said about Big Ben, you have to look at his situation. The Stealers won the superbowl when he was awefull (versus Seattle). They made it to the AFC championship when he was flat aweful against the Jets. I think he is very good at times, and yes I'd roll with him over Carr at this point, but Big Ben is not a top 5 QB yet by a mile, and in no way deserves the #2 jersey sales (now behind the overrated Bush). That is why he is overrated. He won the superbowl more like Dilfer and Brad Johnson won the superbowl, on the backs of great defense and a running game, nothing like how Marino brought his team to the superbowl, since you brought him up. Put Carr on the Stealers and do they have a superbowl victory, yes so long as he tackles Roger Harper, Big Ben's most important contribution.

Also, do you know Eli has only an equal passer rating than Carr despite have a light years better supporting cast? Eli's 1st year was far worse than any year Carr has ever had. I have also seen the Giants lose a lot of games the last two years they would have won had they had merely decent QB play--if you watched the Giants much you would know this and realize at times they were trying to do anything but have Eli Manning pass the ball. Now Eli is finally looking not totally sucky this year, actually he looks good so far, and he is younger than Carr, so yeah I'd take him over Carr. But as with Big Ben, Eli is more hype than performance, and he has been protected from criticism from truly atrocious performances (including playoff games) as another golden boy.

Finally, last I checked ML has .000 winning percentage (0-2), if you think think team winning % is the end all be all. ML certainly has a weaker arm than most of the above (except maybe Brees), but ML has a lot of confidence and is very football smart, no question. Yes I would have a tough choices between Carr and ML, probably ML because of age, but I am not ready to say ML at his peak (ML may already be at his peak because he is so football smart already) will be better than Carr at his.

Rivers has 6 games he has played in the NFL and is blessed with a gifted offense and tremendous defense. He hasn't had to win games, just not lose them. Would I take him over Carr to build a team around, yes (in fact I thought Rivers going into the draft was the most impressive among Eli and Big Ben--I thought the Chargers got a steal), but I might be wrong on who is ultimately the better player by not considering supporting cast around them.

The 1st group includes those who I would take over Carr, either slam dunk better (e.g., Brady, McNabb, Peyton, Hassellbeck, Palmer, etc) and a couple I just think have too much more potential. Vick is a little of both, he is constantly underrated in his impact on the game, just look at ATLs win loss record with and without him over that period. Vick has issues, he won't be a top 5 QB overall until he improves his passing, but his impact on the bottom line (winning) is easily in the top 10 among QBs. Young I simply think has too much potential, and I have seen nothing to persuade me otherwise based on preseason and this season's playing time so far. Of course this is pure speculation here, but yes I would not hesitate from building with VY over Carr (not because he is already better, he would not be starting on Carr's team, but because he is younger and his upside is tops IMO.

So in the end there is like 12-15 QBs I'd rather have over Carr because they are older but great or their youth/potential is just higher. This isn't a question of who is better right now, otherwise I'd take Jake Delhomme over most of the above guys. The Texans have a solid QB with a lot of years left and with some room to still grow. When they balance what they have now and future needs the Texans are better than half of the league. I can't say that about many other parts of that team and you might try fixing that before making a decision about Carr.

[JeopardE]

Rex Grossman should be traded.

[Desert Scar]

Rex Grossman should be traded.

But hey, he is 6-0, even better than Big Ben's best season. David Carr couldn't do better, right.

[JeopardE]

But hey, he is 6-0, even better than Big Ben's best season. David Carr couldn't do better, right.
And to be frank, other than the fact that the Bears have loads of talent and the Texans have none, there isn't much different between Rex and David, is there? Both had horrible seasons last year. Both were off to fantastic starts this year. Both had poor performances in week 6 (Rex even moreso than David). Obviously you'd have to be objective to see that, but objectivity and ClutchFans.net don't belong in the same sentence.

[Desert Scar]

And to be frank, other than the fact that the Bears have loads of talent and the Texans have none, there isn't much different between Rex and David, is there? Both had horrible seasons last year. Both were off to fantastic starts this year. Both had poor performances in week 6 (Rex even moreso than David). Obviously you'd have to be objective to see that, but objectivity and ClutchFans.net don't belong in the same sentence.

You lost me, are you saying Carr=Rex, or saying it is laughable to compare them because of their situations?

[rhino17]

And to be frank, other than the fact that the Bears have loads of talent and the Texans have none, there isn't much different between Rex and David, is there? Both had horrible seasons last year. Both were off to fantastic starts this year. Both had poor performances in week 6 (Rex even moreso than David). Obviously you'd have to be objective to see that, but objectivity and ClutchFans.net don't belong in the same sentence.


They have loads more talent on defense. The texans have more offensive talent, especially recievers. There is no way the Bears would be as good as they are if Carr was their QB instead of Rex

[tinman]

The bottom line is winning. Rothlesburger may not look like Joe Montana but he delivered in the playoffs and brought the Steelers a SuperBowl.

The QB position is a leadership position, so Carr has to show leadership.

When Vince Young played against the Colts, Dwight Freeney had a hard time tackling him. this is the same Dwight Freeney than squashed David Carr like a grape.

[msn]

The texans have more offensive talent
I just blew Coke all over my screen and keyboard.

The Texans have more offensive talent than:
--The Houston Zoo
--My 8th grade team that scored 1 TD--ALL YEAR
--My nose hairs

I can't think of much else. Unless you're not discussing the entire offense, only QB and R. Then, the Texans are looking pretty good. But once you add in the other 7 or 8 guys, the Texans offense is a steaming pile of crap.

[Desert Scar]

They have loads more talent on defense. The texans have more offensive talent, especially recievers. There is no way the Bears would be as good as they are if Carr was their QB instead of Rex

The Bears have a much better Oline, much better backs, much better TE, and better 2nd (Muhammad or the blazing Berrian, take your pick) and 3rd WRs (Davis). The only two offensive players on the Texans that would start for the Bears are Andre Johnson and Carr.

But if you think Rex is better than Carr, or that Carr wouldn't be 6-0 with the Bears, I don't know what to tell you.

[MadMax]

and nowhere in my (i prefer "rip-roaringly hilarious" to "cute") response did i make that implication.

but you can't have your cake and eat it, too, MM - you don't think david carr is going to win here, right? so we need to cut our losses? and to that end, oh, by the way, vy should be the qb because he's a winner. am i warm?

no one with an iq above functioning idiot expects immediate results with any aspect of this franchise.


why does the qb have to be "new"? if they developed carr (which they never have), would you be ok with that? or will you still "hate" that he's their qb?


right, more sheep-sounding vy blather. got it.

here's the thing, though, MM: kubiak sees that upside in carr. he had a chance to take vy and jettison carr, or just jettison carr, and he chose not to. considering it's the FIRST time in carr's 4.5 years that anyone within the organization has shown him any support, i'm willing to give kubiak the benefit of the doubt.

and so far, he's been ok.

not sure you could answer this objectively, but say this was carr's first year. it's not, i know - there's an inherent problem in pushing the reboot button five years in, i get that. but just for a second, assume it is - how would you rate him thus far?

because that's how i'm taking this; years 1-4 don't exist. not carr's fault - i blame mcnair, casserly and capers; moron all of them. and next year, when they turnover even more of the roster, it's gonna look like '02-'05 didn't. casserly and capers screwed this thing up SOOOOOOOO massively, i'm willing to give kubiak some space to try and right the ship.

it's like he took over a losing college program that then got the death penalty.

1. because i don't see us developing a QB who's already been in the league 4 years. because i've seen the guy actually go backwards before this season. because i'd rather take a chance on guys with more upside, if you're gonna lose anyway. i feel like i know what we have with david carr.

2. it's moderately insulting to suggest that because of i have an opinion that differs from you, i'm a sheep. i'm certain you find your own opinions more valid. great. that and a quarter will get you a pack of gum...or maybe your own website regarding pro football in houston. yeah, i think we passed up something special in VY. i said then, i can't believe we're letting david carr stand in the way of that. i stand by that opinion.

3. i've already said that i recongize there are people out there who are making these decision who know more than i do. that's true in every sport out there, frankly. but it doesn't stop us from critiquing them, does it? frankly, i'm sure you, me and trained chimps could do a better job putting together a roster than the previous administration of this franchise did...so while it's persuasive in some ways that the guy who's getting paid to do the job knows more than i do about it, it's equally unpersuasive in others.

4. my opinion on this issue is nothing more than my opinion. i'm not asserting that i know more than gary kubiak or gary coleman on the issue. i've grown tired of the david carr years. i know you can offer up a 100000000000 excuses for david as to why that's not all his fault. but it's more than just a little bit his fault. i made my share of excuses for dave, as well. for a very long time. i'm tired of it.

[msn]

i know you can offer up a 100000000000 excuses for david
They're not excuses. You can dismiss them or be tired of them all you like, but they're FACTS. I'm sorry you're tired of it. FYI, we're *all* tired of the sucktitude. Some of us have a more accurate grasp of its cause than others.

[pgabriel]

They're not excuses. You can dismiss them or be tired of them all you like, but they're FACTS. I'm sorry you're tired of it. FYI, we're *all* tired of the sucktitude. Some of us have a more accurate grasp of its cause than others.


oh lord, that's not arrogant, you have more of a grasp of the problems. maybe you're in the wrong business.


they're not all facts, I say carr holds the ball to long, you don't, that's a difference of opinion. not your grasp of a fact.

[Nick]

Biggio and Bagwell didn't hit in the playoffs before 2004.

T-mac has never won a post-season series.

Charles Barkley never won a championship.

The Astros haven't won a World Series game.

David Carr hasn't developed as a QB.


All of the previous statments can be made, and are 100% accurate. However, all of the statements contain circumstances beyond that player/team's control that HAVE to be taken into account when evaluating that statement.