View Full Version : [Official] Astros Offseason Thread
Castor27
10-05-2006, 02:09 PM
Offseason moves and discussion of offseason moves belong in here. Keep the chit-chat to a minimum as well as the insults.
Master Baiter
10-05-2006, 02:34 PM
Isn't the whole point of a BBS to have chit chat?
geeimsobored
10-05-2006, 02:46 PM
Isn't the whole point of a BBS to have chit chat?
and insults
although to stay on target, we better go find a decent #2 pitcher and some guy who can hit the ball and drive in runs. Carlos Lee sounds good if we can get him for a reasonable price. Maybe Jason Schmidt on the pitching end? Although we can probably only get one or the other at best
If Carlos Lee wants $15 million a year.... pass. He's going to ask for that, but I highly doubt somebody pays him that (and if they do, they're fools). If he really wants to come here, the Astros should go no higher than $10-11 million per.
If Soriano wants $15 million a year... pass (somebody will pay him, however).
In the end, neither of those guys are Lance Berkman, nor are they going to magically become Lance Berkman once they put on an Astro uniform. If you want to pay somebody that much money, they should be producing what Berkman just did, and what Pujols does ($12 million/year)... I'm not going to be convinced by a player having a great year in their CONTRACT year as a reason why he deserves that much money.
Jason Schmidt, being the best pitching FA out there, will get the customary $14-16 million offer from one of the big-money teams... the Giants may hold the inside track, if they're serious about building the team around somebody other than Bonds.
The simplest option remains to re-sign Pettite, sign another veteran pitcher (Woody Williams, Matt Clement), take a flyer on an AL pitcher who isn't wanted, and explore trade options for Dontrelle.
For bats, try like hell to sign Carlos Lee at a price that Carlos Lee is worth, re-sign Huff if he agrees to a deal that's too good to pass up (possibly re-sign him anyways for market value if the club loses hope in Ensberg, or finds a trading partner), keep an eye on Pence and promote him if he handles spring training well, or tears up AAA early, hope Luke Scott doesn't pull a Jason Lane/Ensberg, and make Willy Taveras EARN his job over Chris Burke... don't just hand it to him.
CMHouston
10-05-2006, 03:13 PM
What about Woody Williams and Carlos Lee? Williams isn't Schmidt, but he would work. He's getting older, but he is still a pretty good pitcher. 12-5 with a 3.65 is darn good. He would be a lot less than Schmidt so that should solve those two problems. This is obvious, but we are still at least a bat short even if we sign Lee. Who would we try to get after that? Do we look for an outfielder, or do we dump Ensberg, let Huff go, and sign a third baseman? Also, is this the year we finally go after a catcher that knows how to get on base and drive in runs? Now would be a great time to make Ausmus the back up catcher since Roger might not be coming back. Jorge Posada (If the Yanks don't pick up his option) sounds good, even though it probably won't happen.
Dream34
10-05-2006, 03:48 PM
What happened to Andrew Jones? I thought he was going to be a free agent or am I off base on that? I thought there was some talk earlier this year that he would not resign with the Braves at the end of the season. Would he not be the idea fit for the Astros?
A great center fielder with a solid bat. I think he deserves his asking price.
The simplest option remains to re-sign Pettite, sign another veteran pitcher (Woody Williams, Matt Clement), take a flyer on an AL pitcher who isn't wanted, and explore trade options for Dontrelle.
Clement just underwent shoulder surgery ... and is nowhere near the end of his contract (just check Theo's tears) ... MC is sked for the Bosox bullpen if and when he recovers. Does Wms have any wood left? He's ancient and declining (from a middling career).
The big question to me is what the 'stros get back for Lidge WHEN they deal him this Fall.
CMHouston
10-05-2006, 03:54 PM
The big question to me is what the 'stros get back for Lidge WHEN they deal him this Fall.[/QUOTE]
I really don't see them getting that much for him, do you? I think if we were going to get rid of him, Boston would want him. Who could we get in return from Boston though?
Also, do you think that they might keep him now? The Hickey firing made me wonder if they wanted to bring someone else in to see if they could work with him. He did say many times this season that it was not mental and it was all mechanics. I don't know how much of that I believe, but no one know better than Lidge himself.
Would any of you guys want to give Lidge another chance? What about Ensberg and Lane? I don't want to give up on Ensberg yet, but Lane can go a way for all I care.
What happened to Andrew Jones? I thought he was going to be a free agent or am I off base on that?
off-base. he's signed. there was talk he might be dealt prior to obtaining his 10/5 status.
Pocket Rockets
10-05-2006, 04:06 PM
NEED TO GET CARLOS LEE & dontrelle willis
resign huff & pettitte, look for trade poss with ensberg, lane, lidge
and play the guys that can produce! not the ones you hope can produce
Oski2005
10-05-2006, 04:21 PM
Should the Astros get involved in the Daisuke Matsuzaka sweepstakes?
He was the MVP of the World Baseball Classic, throws from 90 to 96, has 4 pitches (fb, splt, ch, sl), and he's only 26.
Should the Astros get involved in the Daisuke Matsuzaka sweepstakes?
He was the MVP of the World Baseball Classic, throws from 90 to 96, has 4 pitches (fb, splt, ch, sl), and he's only 26.
The Astros won't win a bidding war... especially not for an unproven pitcher, when they're already paying an ace big-time money.
Also, despite this guy's credentials... foreign pitchers are still coming over with mixed results. Without the evaluation time in a team's farm system (where you can really break down his mechanics, how he responds to adversity, his control in certain situations, etc.), its still very risky to pay the big bucks for them.
If the Yankees decide to panic and part ways with Alex Rodriguez (while agreeing to pick up most of his contract)... the Astros should be one of the first teams knocking on the door.
He's batting EIGTH today... unreal... it seems like both sides would benefit from separating.
JunkyardDwg
10-07-2006, 04:11 PM
If the Yankees decide to panic and part ways with Alex Rodriguez (while agreeing to pick up most of his contract)... the Astros should be one of the first teams knocking on the door.
He's batting EIGTH today... unreal... it seems like both sides would benefit from separating.
Imagine what he could in a low-pressure market like Houston...I'd buy that.
Imagine what he could in a low-pressure market like Houston...I'd buy that.
October is high-pressure everywhere tho. BTW - how much would you give to get him and how much might some other team?
JunkyardDwg
10-07-2006, 04:36 PM
October is high-pressure everywhere tho. BTW - how much would you give to get him and how much might some other team?
I wouldn't give up any more than the Astros were offering for Tejada. If some other team wants him fine...there are other options available for us.
October is high-pressure everywhere tho. BTW - how much would you give to get him and how much might some other team?
Its different in NY... its the only place where the reigning AL MVP could end up batting 8th the following year.
The Yankees need young pitching... but they always like guys who are MLB ready (for us, that includes Nieve, Hirsh, Albers, Patton).
The Yankees would have to be the ones looking to move him, however. If they aren't, they're likely not going to be "blown away" by another team's low-ball offer to take their troubled player off their hand.
I wouldn't give up any more than the Astros were offering for Tejada. If some other team wants him fine...there are other options available for us.
A right hander, who can play 3B, is in the prime of his career, is in position to be the greatest player of all time (if he doesn't get psyched out by NY)... there may be other options, but if he's available, there are no better options that fit nearly every need this team needs offensively for next year.
JunkyardDwg
10-07-2006, 04:49 PM
A right hander, who can play 3B, is in the prime of his career, is in position to be the greatest player of all time (if he doesn't get psyched out by NY)... there may be other options, but if he's available, there are no better options that fit nearly every need this team needs offensively for next year.
He would definitely fill the needs this team has on offense but I just don't wanna give up too much for him.
Besides, don't you go on yourself about how pitching and defense are the most important pieces. :p
He would definitely fill the needs this team has on offense but I just don't wanna give up too much for him.
Besides, don't you go on yourself about how pitching and defense are the most important pieces. :p
Normally, I'd agree... but if he is indeed made available, these are rare chances where "overpaying" by giving up a Patton/Hirsh + some other guys, it may be too good to pass up.
For years, the Astros have broken deals by hanging on to their prized prospects... Elarton, Lane, DARYLE WARD!
This is different than the Barkley deal, or even the Tejada deal... A-rod is a different player.
Plus, the Astros offense may be the only one "desparate" enough to actually take a chance on A-Rod by offering up plus prospects (which would entice the Yankees). Other contending teams may not take the risk because their lineups are in decent enough shape... our's isn't. (this is in contrast to why I'd think we'd have a better chance of getting A-rod, vs. getting a guy like Dontrelle who everybody will want).
As far as pitching/defense being the keys... they are indeed... but we can't afford to be dead-last in nearly every offensive category. We don't need to try to be like the Yankees this year and have a "stacked" lineup from 1-9 (which is about to get swept as we speak)... but to GET to the playoffs, you need the lineup consistency.
Of course, we could have a murderer's row next year as a lineup, but still not be over .500 if we don't have Pettite/Clemens equivalents in the rotation.
A-Rod would have to agree to a trade. That said, if he were to become a 'stro IMO it would take a 3-way deal with Lidge, and both other teams being NLers.
A-Rod would have to agree to a trade. That said, if he were to become a 'stro IMO it would take a 3-way deal with Lidge, and both other teams being NLers.
Does he have a no-trade contract?
Also, why the inherent "3-way trade" inflexibility.... unless you don't believe we have something (young pitching) that the Yankees covet.
Ah screw it... don't go after A-rod. The way the Tigers and A's are beating up on "superior" teams, I'd rather the Astros just build up their young players, add some cast-off veterans like Kenny Rogers, Frank Thomas, and Milton Bradley are... and let the success continue. ;)
Actually, something I didn't think about till now... the Yankees getting EMBARASSED may just intensify their efforts to bring back Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens.
I couldn't see Andy going to pitch for any other team or leaving his family... but I wouldn't completely rule it out if Steinbrenner/Torre came to Houston on their knees begging for him to come back up north. His great admiration/loyalty towards those two may be enough to convince him.
And, once Andy goes... Roger won't be too far behind.
rhino17
10-07-2006, 05:43 PM
If Carlos Lee wants $15 million a year.... pass. He's going to ask for that, but I highly doubt somebody pays him that (and if they do, they're fools). If he really wants to come here, the Astros should go no higher than $10-11 million per.
If Soriano wants $15 million a year... pass (somebody will pay him, however).
In the end, neither of those guys are Lance Berkman, nor are they going to magically become Lance Berkman once they put on an Astro uniform. If you want to pay somebody that much money, they should be producing what Berkman just did, and what Pujols does ($12 million/year)... I'm not going to be convinced by a player having a great year in their CONTRACT year as a reason why he deserves that much money.
Jason Schmidt, being the best pitching FA out there, will get the customary $14-16 million offer from one of the big-money teams... the Giants may hold the inside track, if they're serious about building the team around somebody other than Bonds.
The simplest option remains to re-sign Pettite, sign another veteran pitcher (Woody Williams, Matt Clement), take a flyer on an AL pitcher who isn't wanted, and explore trade options for Dontrelle.
For bats, try like hell to sign Carlos Lee at a price that Carlos Lee is worth, re-sign Huff if he agrees to a deal that's too good to pass up (possibly re-sign him anyways for market value if the club loses hope in Ensberg, or finds a trading partner), keep an eye on Pence and promote him if he handles spring training well, or tears up AAA early, hope Luke Scott doesn't pull a Jason Lane/Ensberg, and make Willy Taveras EARN his job over Chris Burke... don't just hand it to him.
I think even if they have overpay a Carlos Lee or Soriano, they should do it. They need a bog bat in the middle of this line up and the only way they're gonna get it done is by spending money. I will do them no good if they just go after another cheap option like Preston Wilson. They need a big name, proven RBI guy in the prime of there career and if they want that, they wil have to spend MONEY.
camisgirl
10-07-2006, 05:45 PM
Would be awesome. I decided to play Pete Rose for once and I made a "bet" on baseball at the All Star break with a family friend. He is a Yankees fan so I told him that Detroit would beat them and go on to the WS. Of course I said it would be against us but you know how that went. So, I am pulling for Detroit to do this. That would be da shizzy.
JunkyardDwg
10-07-2006, 06:02 PM
Actually, something I didn't think about till now... the Yankees getting EMBARASSED may just intensify their efforts to bring back Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens.
I couldn't see Andy going to pitch for any other team or leaving his family... but I wouldn't completely rule it out if Steinbrenner/Torre came to Houston on their knees begging for him to come back up north. His great admiration/loyalty towards those two may be enough to convince him.
And, once Andy goes... Roger won't be too far behind.
They go back to the AL they'll both start showing they're age, well Roger more than Andy at least. With the success they've enjoyed here in the twilight of their career, why would they risk tarnishing their legacy by going back to the Bronx.
I think even if they have overpay a Carlos Lee or Soriano, they should do it. They need a bog bat in the middle of this line up and the only way they're gonna get it done is by spending money. I will do them no good if they just go after another cheap option like Preston Wilson. They need a big name, proven RBI guy in the prime of there career and if they want that, they wil have to spend MONEY.
A big name, proven RBI guy in the prime of his career... and you have to spend money for him. If that's the case, I wonder what Drayton is paying Lance Berkman these days... is he still using money, or is Lance accepting free hot dogs from the vendors?
Spending irresponsibly on free agents is the sort of flawwed logic that CRIPPLES teams that just dish out big contracts for the "hot" free agent, regardless of whether or not they're worth it.
Ask Seattle if they're loving Adrian Beltre or Richie Sexon.
Ask the Dodgers if they're enamored with JD Drew.
You complain about the club going after Preston Wilson... but if the team had done NOTHING, and just simply put Luke Scott in LF for the entire year, they may be still playing right now.
Carlos Lee is a great player... so is Soriano. But, are either of them better than Lance Berkman? NO. Are either of them better than Pujols or Guerrero? NO. Thus, IMO, no team should be offering them the $15 million+ per year they're asking for... they're both NOT worth that much. (that being said, the club will go hard after Lee... but not to the point of overpaying).
They go back to the AL they'll both start showing they're age, well Roger more than Andy at least. With the success they've enjoyed here in the twilight of their career, why would they risk tarnishing their legacy by going back to the Bronx.
No doubt they wouldn't be as good... but the Yankees could be desperate. Regardless of what their numbers are, who do you think the Yankees would have wanted on the mound today: Roger/Andy? or Jared Wright.
As I said... if Steinbrenner/Torre begs them to come back, and makes them feel special, all bets are off.
Does he have a no-trade contract?
Also, why the inherent "3-way trade" inflexibility.... unless you don't believe we have something (young pitching) that the Yankees covet.
Ah screw it... don't go after A-rod. The way the Tigers and A's are beating up on "superior" teams, I'd rather the Astros just build up their young players, add some cast-off veterans like Kenny Rogers, Frank Thomas, and Milton Bradley are... and let the success continue. ;)
A-Rod has no-trade...3-way as I suspect Yanks would want a top starter (and Roy O is too dear a price IMO) and Lidge could bring pieces to piece together a deal...if SS A-Rod is worth having, and I suggest he is.
No doubt they wouldn't be as good... but the Yankees could be desperate. Regardless of what their numbers are, who do you think the Yankees would have wanted on the mound today: Roger/Andy? or Jared Wright.
As I said... if Steinbrenner/Torre begs them to come back, and makes them feel special, all bets are off.
IMHO Roger is a 3-month 6-inning pitcher. To come back IMHO Rocket needs to do so in June or July. AP will be pitching, and pitching well, next season - somewhere. Probably MMP IMHO.
A-Rod has no-trade...3-way as I suspect Yanks would want a top starter (and Roy O is too dear a price IMO) and Lidge could bring pieces to piece together a deal...if SS A-Rod is worth having, and I suggest he is.
I actually think Lidge is undervalued at this point... and likely won't fetch as much in trade returns as last year. At the same time, however, I believe that with some extra rest that he finally gets now, as well as continued work with his mechanics (which had improved a ton by the end of the year)... he can be very valuble to the 07 Astros.
If you can get a team who wants young pitching, the Astros can be in the drivers seat with any trade (since they have quite a few arms in the farm right now... none of them top shelf yet, but all with some potential).
I actually think Lidge is undervalued at this point... and likely won't fetch as much in trade returns as last year. At the same time, however, I believe that with some extra rest that he finally gets now, as well as continued work with his mechanics (which had improved a ton by the end of the year)... he can be very valuble to the 07 Astros.
Bosox supposedly have Lidge targeted. Lidge likely to be traded and for good value not on the cheap IMHO.
Bosox supposedly have Lidge targeted. Lidge likely to be traded and for good value not on the cheap IMHO.
Everything I've seen is that they would try to low-ball the Astros for Lidge, and if we didn't bite... they'd stick with Papelbon as closer (there's serious doubts whether or not his arm could throw 200 innings, with his splitter).
They're not ready to part with anything significant for him... and since the Astros aren't desperate to move Lidge no matter what, it better be for something they can actually use.
lalala902102001
10-07-2006, 08:09 PM
Lidge for ARod. Consider it done.
camisgirl
10-07-2006, 10:02 PM
Lidge for ARod. Consider it done.
I felt that way too once but I decided ARod is just not a right feel for our team. I hate to see Lidge go. I bet as soon as we do he snaps out of his funk and kicks are butts. If he goes to the AL it won't matter as much. Who would close? Think Wheels wants the job?
I felt that way too once but I decided ARod is just not a right feel for our team.
Because he hits HR's, gets RBI's, and is a proven hitter?
Since we don't have a lot of those, I can see why he seems like a misfit on the Astros. ;)
The Cat
10-07-2006, 10:05 PM
Offer Lidge for ARod and George Steinbrenner might die from laughing too hard. I know the Yankees often overreact, but let's keep it in the confines of reality.
Lidge, in a down year, was a mediocre at best reliever in a substantially easier NL. ARod, in a down year, still had an OPS of more than .900 and plays two of the toughest positions to play (3B and SS). I know he can't ever bring full value because of his contract, but it's going to take way, way, way more than Brad Lidge.
TMac#1
10-07-2006, 10:11 PM
Ensberg, Lidge, Lane, Taveras, Hirsh, Pence maybe Patton,its gonna take A LOT, but I think he would be huge here. If I was Purpura, I'd tell Brian Cashman, forget Berkman and Oswalt and start telling me who you want. If A Rod is truly available, you have to go get him.
camisgirl
10-07-2006, 10:15 PM
Because he hits HR's, gets RBI's, and is a proven hitter?
Since we don't have a lot of those, I can see why he seems like a misfit on the Astros. ;)
Ha ha, ;p. I shouldn't even be in this conversation. It's not even a week after the last game and I am still loving everyone cuz I miss them. I hate the teams I get to watch. But at least it's baseball. I can't talk trade just yet.
Ha ha, ;p. I shouldn't even be in this conversation. It's not even a week after the last game and I am still loving everyone cuz I miss them. I hate the teams I get to watch. But at least it's baseball. I can't talk trade just yet.
I'm really looking forward to this year's ALCS... two teams that have good pitching, made up of a bunch of good guys that you like to root for.
Astroholic
10-08-2006, 12:10 AM
Send Lidge, Ensberg, possibly a prospect for A-Rod. Definitely need to go find a starting pitcher as well.
MONON
10-08-2006, 12:27 AM
Send Lidge, Ensberg, possibly a prospect for A-Rod. Definitely need to go find a starting pitcher as well.
If I could get ARod for Lidge, Ensberg & 1 or 2 pitcing prospects, I would. However, why would George want Lidge when he has Mario?
deepellumrocket
10-08-2006, 12:30 AM
If I could get ARod for Lidge, Ensberg & 1 or 2 pitcing prospects, I would. However, why would George want Lidge when he has Mario?
Because if George could, he would go out and get the top 6 closers in the Major Leagues and call it his bullpen.
Astroholic
10-08-2006, 12:32 AM
If I could get ARod for Lidge, Ensberg & 1 or 2 pitcing prospects, I would. However, why would George want Lidge when he has Mario?
Another question that could be answered is, why would Boston want Lidge? Dotel is finishing his career, Lidge is still young. Possible Yankee set-up man, soon to be closer with Mario getting old.
Jared Novak
10-08-2006, 03:08 AM
IMHO it all starts with pitching. Right now its Roy Oswalt the ace and then everyone else. Backe is gone for 2007 and probably half of 2008. Hirsh, Albers, Nieve and Rodriguez should all be vying for a spot in the rotation. Lets give Patton a long look in spring training and see what he can contribute.
I'd like to see the Astros sign a veteran on the cheap (Woody Williams' name has been thrown out there). Make an offer to Schmidt and Zito (3-4yrs, $33-48 million, depending on years) thats just under market value. Find out if Pettitte wants back in the fold. I'm sure Pettitte would come back at a reduced (at least from this year's salary) rate and give it one more try. As for the Rocket, he said it loud and clear last year, put the team together as if I'm not coming back and make some improvements. If Clemens comes back its a plus, if he doesn't then you've made an adjustment for his loss of production. Getting at least two starters is the most pressing need the Astros have despite their offensive woes.
Leave the bullpen alone. Lidge has had his head examined enough by just about every coach and fellow pitcher on the staff and statistically he's still a decent closer. Wheeler and Qualls were nails during the year and the rest of the bullpen did just fine. Adding another long reliever of lefty would help what is IMO a strength.
Like Patton, take a long look at Hunter Pence. He's been mashing the ball like crazy in the minors, lets see what he can do in the big leagues. Make an offer to Soriano and Lee, just don't break the bank for them. Truth be told I'd rather have Soriano than Lee, because he can steal bases and run.
Inquire about players that are a year away from free agency, or big arbitration raises. Vernon Wells has been a name tossed around, the guy is a five-tool player that could be on the market if the Jays think he won't resign with them. As much as it is a longshot, inquire about A-Rod. With Texas paying a large part of his salary, and all of NY giving up on him, A-Rod could be (dare I say it...) affordable for the Astros. He has the numbers and the production (at least during the regular season) and could be a great shot in the arm for the lineup. A-Rod and Berkman in the lineup back-to-back would be great. Does he want to leave NY and come here? He'd have to waive his no-trade clause. Nonetheless if he is on the market, you have to throw your hat in the ring. Dontrelle Willis is another player that seems to be on the chopping block in Florida seeing as how he is due a big raise after this season. This deal along with Miguel Cabrera are the most difficult and most unlikely trades to happen. Florida is going to want a king's ransom for Cabrera or Willis and the Astros are most likely not going to let go of that many prospects.
I'll probably get flamed for this next comment, but McLane needs to step it up and get this team geraed for another run. With Clemens, Bagwell and Pettitte off the books, there is a substantial amount of money to go after some good players in free agency. I'm just hoping that he doesn't tighten the purse strings so much that all we can hope for is a Preston Wilson-type signing at the end of free agency. Nor do I want to hear that Andy and Roger didn't make their minds up fast enough so we missed out on free agents because we put all our eggs in one basket. McLane enjoys having AIS and if there is any hope that Roger comes back he needs to go out and sign some players and get ready for the run back to the playoffs.
Astroholic
10-08-2006, 03:14 AM
As much as it is a longshot, inquire about A-Rod. With Texas paying a large part of his salary, and all of NY giving up on him, A-Rod could be (dare I say it...) affordable for the Astros. He has the numbers and the production (at least during the regular season) and could be a great shot in the arm for the lineup. A-Rod and Berkman in the lineup back-to-back would be great. Does he want to leave NY and come here? He'd have to waive his no-trade clause. Nonetheless if he is on the market, you have to throw your hat in the ring.
That's what I've been preaching. A-Rod along with another starting pitcher would guide us straight to the playoffs next season. Production from there is all in they're hands.
The Yankees won't make a demand for Lidge... they'll seek out Troy Patton first, Jason Hirsh second, Hunter Pence third, and Morgan Ensberg 4th before they'd take Lidge (unless it was to keep him from Boston... who also won't give up much for him).
That being said, its also in the Astros best interest for Lidge to be on this team next year. I'm not saying he should be a deal-breaker... and I'm also not saying that Wheeler can't handle the job... its just that I don't see enough quality arms in the bullpen to make it through the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings if Wheeler is set for the 9th.
You can win with good young starting pitching, a solid bullpen, and a timely offense... see the Tigers. If A-rod is available... offer Ensberg (they'll need a third baseman) + any young prospect the Yankees covet, or get another team involved which could use a 3B.
MadMax
10-08-2006, 07:36 AM
We need to just load up our team with bats so we can be as awesome as the Yankees. I'm pretty sure they took some BBS advice and "just went out and got another bat," a few times. Damon...Abreu...
Meanwhile, they can't get anybody out. So when the bats have an off night, they're out of the game. Sounds like a perfect plan.
I can't tell you how satisfying it is for me to watch a team like that lose.
The Real Shady
10-08-2006, 08:17 AM
What do you guys think of this three way deal?
Yankees:
Acquire - Dontrelle Willis
Trade - ARod
Florida:
Acquire - Jason Hirsh, Chris Burke, (mid level pitching prospect)
Trade - Dontrell Willis
Houston:
Acquire - ARod
Trade - Jason Hirsh, Chris Burke, (mid level pitching prospect)
What do you guys think of this three way deal?
Yankees:
Acquire - Dontrelle Willis
Trade - ARod
Florida:
Acquire - Jason Hirsh, Chris Burke, (mid level pitching prospect)
Trade - Dontrell Willis
Houston:
Acquire - ARod
Trade - Jason Hirsh, Chris Burke, (mid level pitching prospect)
The Marlins would probably want a guy who's a little younger than Burke... but this trade would make sense.
Then again, why don't we just trade for Dontrelle ourselves? He'd probably have a bigger impact than A-rod next year (and have a longer career here)... and hell, he can swing the bat too.
Everything I've seen is that they would try to low-ball the Astros for Lidge, and if we didn't bite... they'd stick with Papelbon as closer (there's serious doubts whether or not his arm could throw 200 innings, with his splitter).
They're not ready to part with anything significant for him... and since the Astros aren't desperate to move Lidge no matter what, it better be for something they can actually use.
Papelbon, Theo et al have said, will be moving to the starter's role BECAUSE of his shoulder. Bosox have little to offer for Lidge NOW but after they deal Manny to LA of A and Loretta somewhere they'll have some new pieces to fit in a Lidge deal.
IMHO Bosox want BL and 'stros want out of his soon to be high salary (in favor of Wheeler).
Locals must sign a free agent stick because they'll have need for their tradables to bring in other help.
Then again, why don't we just trade for Dontrelle ourselves? He'd probably have a bigger impact than A-rod next year (and have a longer career here)... and hell, he can swing the bat too.
He'd probably be able to protect LB in the line-up every day, inc his starts!
jopatmc
10-08-2006, 09:47 AM
I DO NOT want ARod! We need Dontrelle. Less money, bigger contributions from a starting pitcher giving you 200+ innings than any single hitter hitting .330.
Burke is your second baseman, that is an upgrade. Biggio has to be the utility reliever that plays 4-5 days a week, spelling everybody, essentially him and Burke switching roles. Get Pettitte re-signed. Why sign WW if we can get Andy? Then go after a hitter.
If we were able to trade some prospects for Dontrelle, that would add about $5 million to our payroll. Then if we were able to re-sign Pettitte, that is a wash from last year. You've got raises coming for some of the guys. But we should still have $10-$13 million per to throw at a big time hitter. But you've got to have two primo pitchers to go along with Roy O, otherwise we are just wasting money. Quality starting pitching is the single most important factor in the building of a team these days. Especially in our ballpark, where you can get practically any Punch and Judy hitter to knock it out of here. We have to have more hitting but we can't get that hitting at the price of running average to poor starting pitchers out there. You have to have at least three, because when you get to the playoffs, you are typically going up against 3 quality starters (St. Louis this year would be an exception to that rule. Of course, look how weak the division was.)
Dontrelle at his current salary is a steal. You've got to figure out the prospect package and get it done. I am even open to giving them Hirsch at this point. Dontrelle is young and he is an established #1, going right into his prime. If we had to piece together guys like Sampson and somebody else (Bucholz) at #5, I think it would be worth it to have Roy O, Dontrelle, and either Pettitte or Zito at the top of your pitching rotation. Jared, I'd love to have Zito at $12 million per (Pettitte's money), but just can't see that happening. I would bet the Yankees or Cardinals, some team like that, will offer him $15-$16 million per.
But, this all starts with getting Dontrelle. He is the cheapest top quality starter available. You get him and then you get a hitter and another pitcher.
Roxfan73
10-08-2006, 09:51 AM
Papelbon, Theo et al have said, will be moving to the starter's role BECAUSE of his shoulder. Bosox have little to offer for Lidge NOW but after they deal Manny to LA of A and Loretta somewhere they'll have some new pieces to fit in a Lidge deal.
IMHO Bosox want BL and 'stros want out of his soon to be high salary (in favor of Wheeler).
Locals must sign a free agent stick because they'll have need for their tradables to bring in other help.
If I recall, the last time we sent a slider slinging RP to Boston, it worked out pretty well.
I DO NOT want ARod!
But, this all starts with getting Dontrelle. He is the cheapest top quality starter available. You get him and then you get a hitter and another pitcher.
I hear you... I've always preached the pitching first motto, and a lot of this off-season is still dependent on whether or not Pettite re-signs (regardless of what else happens).
Obviously, if the team believes they can get Dontrelle, they should go for it... but, something tells me they'll have more competition for him. EVERYBODY needs young, lefty, starting pitching... i'm not sure if the Astros could give the Marlins the best offer. Additionally, the Marlins would be less receptive to our everyday players/Lidge in favor of younger, more MLB-ready prospects.
However, with A-rod, the team may not face as much competition... there aren't that many contending teams with as many holes in their lineup as the Astros that may be willing to take the risk of trading good prospects/everyday players for him. Additionally, we seem to have the perfect mix of capable young starting pitching prospects, along with some historically productive expendable everyday guys (Ensberg, Lidge) that could get a deal done with NY.
In the end, I'd like to see their names in one of the two trading pools. Hell, we don't even know if the Yankees are going to want to trade A-rod... he'll have to suck it up and rescind his no trade clause if they do, but we're still a ways away from all of that coming together.
First things first... re-sign Pettite before Steinbrenner makes a personal trip to his house and offers him his monument park plaque, along with half of NYC, if he agrees to come back.
rhino17
10-08-2006, 10:35 AM
That's what I've been preaching. A-Rod along with another starting pitcher would guide us straight to the playoffs next season. Production from there is all in they're hands.
Although it would be nice to have A-Rod and he does put up great umbers during the regular season, he is complete postseason bust. It hurt us in playoff runs in the past when key contributers such as Ensberg or Bagwell did not show up for the playoffs. We had depended on those type of player all year and when it came to playoff time, tey could not handle it.
Although it would be nice to have A-Rod and he does put up great umbers during the regular season, he is complete postseason bust. It hurt us in playoff runs in the past when key contributers such as Ensberg or Bagwell did not show up for the playoffs. We had depended on those type of player all year and when it came to playoff time, tey could not handle it.
The biggest problem the Astros have right now is getting to the playoffs... without depending on monumental comebacks at the ends of seasons, or other team's choking down the stretch.
In the miniscule sample size that is the playoffs... you cannot tell me who is a "great playoff hitter" and who isn't based on A-rod's lack of production for the Yankees. Additionally, Jason Lane and Chris Burke have had great playoff success... are you going to tell me those guys are born to hit in the post-season?
Lance Berkman was also horrible in 2001... but the last two years he's looked like the second coming of Mr. October.
The bottom line is... ARod's lack of success as a Yankee in the 05 and 06 playoffs will NOT deter me from wanting the Astros to get him. Also, if you actually look up his playoff numbers, he was AWESOME in Seattle, and had a great divisional series in 04 with the Yankees.
His overall playoff numbers before this year show he's a .305 hitter with 6 HR's in 6 post-season series where he was actually an everyday player.
rezdawg
10-08-2006, 11:06 AM
I can't tell you how satisfying it is for me to watch a team like that lose.
Im in Boston right now...so imagine how fun it is to be at a sports bar with a bunch of Sox fans...watching the Yanks get their asses handed to them. Good times.
Astroholic
10-08-2006, 12:57 PM
Although it would be nice to have A-Rod and he does put up great umbers during the regular season, he is complete postseason bust. It hurt us in playoff runs in the past when key contributers such as Ensberg or Bagwell did not show up for the playoffs. We had depended on those type of player all year and when it came to playoff time, tey could not handle it.
He's bad int he post season as a Yankee. Houston is a whole new atmosphere that he might absolutely dominate. Crawford boxes? A-Rod Boxes.
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/640/arodastrovb6.jpg
Make it happen.
The Cat
10-08-2006, 01:01 PM
Although it would be nice to have A-Rod and he does put up great umbers during the regular season, he is complete postseason bust. It hurt us in playoff runs in the past when key contributers such as Ensberg or Bagwell did not show up for the playoffs. We had depended on those type of player all year and when it came to playoff time, tey could not handle it.
You cannot draw any substantial conclusions from sample sizes as small as 46 at-bats. You just can't. That's what people tried to do with Barry Bonds before the 2002 postseason, and take a look at how that turned out. Baseball is a sport where players routinely have fluke seasons of 500-600 ABs... and a sport where even the best players go through slumps (Berkman went 5-40 something in a stretch last month). 46 at-bats isn't anywhere close to enough evidence to draw conclusions.
Astroholic
10-08-2006, 01:06 PM
That's true. Berkman dropped 20 points in his average the last month and a half. I went to the last two home series games, Phillies and Cardinals. He was smacking the ball around pretty good the games I went.
Houston is a whole new atmosphere that he might absolutely dominate.
he had the same situation is arlington; never "dominated" when it counted - always seemed to turn it on AFTER the rangers had been eliminated. there is just something... off about arod.
consider that IF he's dealt this winter, it will mark the second time he's been traded and he'd be playing for his fourth team - is the guy even 30 yet? the GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. traded twice; 4 teams. how many great, great players get traded twice in the span of 3-4 years? and seattle didn't exactly miss the guy when he left the mariners. in fact, they won, like, 116 games the year after he left.
bobrek
10-09-2006, 09:14 AM
That's true. Berkman dropped 20 points in his average the last month and a half. I went to the last two home series games, Phillies and Cardinals. He was smacking the ball around pretty good the games I went.
Not true. On August 15th Berkman was hitting .319 and he ended the season hitting .315 - not quite 20 points. In addition, he hit .330 in September.
consider that IF he's dealt this winter, it will mark the second time he's been traded and he'd be playing for his fourth team - is the guy even 30 yet? the GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. traded twice; 4 teams. how many great, great players get traded twice in the span of 3-4 years? and seattle didn't exactly miss the guy when he left the mariners. in fact, they won, like, 116 games the year after he left.
I wouldn't be too negative on him being "traded" twice... if you look at the circumstances.
1.) He signs with Texas, only because they were the ones who were dumb enough to offer a contract more than $100 million than then next highest bidder (the Braves). Boras had them bidding against themselves... Hick is an idiot. A Rod was going to get paid regardless (and deservedly so)... but it took the Rangers bumping up the offer THAT MUCH to get him to go there, and I wouldn't fault anybody for accepting that $$$.
2.) He wants to win, so he forces his way out of the Arlington losers... I don't see the big deal in that. That's already "one trade", but its done because the guy wanted to go to a better team... I wouldn't say that's a negative.
3.) He's currently on a glorified "all-star" team, full of big-name sluggers, playing in the media capitol of the world... where if you don't tie your shoes a certain way or leave the toilet seat up in your own home, it shows up on the back pages of 3 different newspapers as well as the 11'oclock news. The guy wins an MVP last year, puts up 35 HR's this year, but is judged solely on what he does in a handful of AB's in the post-season (meanwhile, lets not address the other $100 million dollar players in that lineup who didn't do squat against the Tigers... hell, Giambi is lucky to still be in the big leagues after what he did, and he's yet to perform as well as A-Rod did as a yankee). Sure, he's got some problems... image is important to him, he doesn't like being called out, and he wants to be loved... but if the guy hits better than the player he replaces, I'm willing to let that go.
4.) You think Seattle won all those games the following year because A Rod was keeping them down? You think Seattle would like it if Adrian Beltre and Richie Sexon weren't combining to be worth less than their contracts than A-Rod is worth his?
5.) Nolan Ryan was on 4 teams... Roger Clemens was on 4 teams... both of them had circumstances where you had to look deeper before judging.
That's already "one trade", but its done because the guy wanted to go to a better team...
the rangers' record with arod: 216-270
the rangers' record since: 248-238
in fact, the m's and rangers are a combined +43 wins in the year immediately following arod's departure. it bears mentioning.
i cannot, nor will i attempt to put a finger on it. yes, the guy is a beast on the field. off it... he's just... let's just say the complaints you're hearing from NY were prevelant in dallas, too. not many there miss him:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/mlb/stories/100806dnspoquicktake.2f91fd4.html
5.) Nolan Ryan was on 4 teams... Roger Clemens was on 4 teams... both of them had circumstances where you had to look deeper before judging.[/QUOTE]
both of those players pitched into their mid-40's; but they have long tenures is california (ryan, 8 years); houston (ryan, 9 years) and boston (clemens, 13 years); it's not like teams dumped 'em. in fact, incompetent management was the reason ryan left houston and clemens left boston.
arod, otoh, would be on his third team in 4 years. and none of his previous teams to this point regret him leaving.
i'm just telling you, man - i've witnessed the arod circus first-hand. there's just something not right with the guy. it's weird, but it exists.
MadMax
10-09-2006, 10:15 AM
i'd take a-rod in houston in a heartbeat.
Buck Turgidson
10-09-2006, 10:26 AM
Figgered I'd mention it:
JR House & Eric Munson were dropped off the 40-man roster. Purp said he'll talk to both & try to bring them back. RH reliever Paul Estrada was added.
Look for more roster moves prior to the Rule V draft, as the 2004 draft class (Pence, Patton, Parraz, Reineke, Towles, Santangelo, Englebrook, Ash) will be eligible this year.
i'm just telling you, man - i've witnessed the arod circus first-hand. there's just something not right with the guy. it's weird, but it exists.
Was it weird when he was leading Seattle to the ALCS his first few years?
Was it weird when he was killing the ball out of the park in Arlington?
I can understand how his contract hampered what the Rangers could and could not do, personnel wise. I can understand if he alienated some of the other "young budding stars" in the Ranger locker room who were looking up to him for guidance.... but you can't tell me that the guy "underachieved" in his years with the Rangers... his numbers speak for themself.
Also, I can't take any stock in what the Texas freakin Rangers have done at all over the last 10 years... they've made so many screwed up decisions, from offering A-Rod the $250 million, to signing Chan Ho Park... it looks that much worse when the Astros have developed a ton of good young pitching as well as created a "winning environment" just down the road, with far less expenditures than the Hick in Arlington dishes out.
Bottom line: you plug A-Rod on a team like the Astros, where EVERYTHING is kept in-house (mostly because our local media is so rah-rah), and a place where Biggio, Berkman, Oswalt, Clemens, and Pettite would all be considered "leaders" on this team no matter what A-Rod does, I'm pretty confident he can make this team better.
I think people expect ARod to cure Cancer when he goes to their team... or at least be the captain/leader/spokesman/etc. If you don't expect that, and just put him in charge of putting up ridiculous numbers year after year after year... you're going to be happy with what he does. I would rather listen to Berkman joke about twinkies anyways, then hanging on ARod's every word to be the emotional leader of the team (like people in NY wanted).
This is sort of the anti-Barkley trade... in the fact that the Rockets wanted Barkley's fire/emotion/publicity/spokesman/captaincy nature to help lead a team full of quiet guys in the background like Hakeem and Clyde. The Astros simply want somebody to HIT the ball... and leave the media duties to Craig Cliche Biggio, Lance "I'll talk about anything", Oswalt "can I pretend to be any more monotone", or Roger/Andy if they come back. Hell, Drayton and Phil get more media time than any of our current players do.
1.)...
2.) ...
3.) ...
4.) ...
5.) ...
...well done.
i'd take a-rod in houston in a heartbeat.
The prevailing BBS question seems to revolve around whether the man has a heart.
The prevailing BBS question seems to revolve around whether the man has a heart.
The guy could be hollow, for all I care... if he puts up anything close to the numbers he has in his career. And judging by our right-hander haven ballpark... he would.
The question is, why do so many people care about what goes on in ARod's "mind"? The NY media has screwed up a lot less talented people than ARod.
Was it weird when he was leading Seattle to the ALCS his first few years?
year. they went once. and had griffey, johnson and martinez on that team.
Was it weird when he was killing the ball out of the park in Arlington?
no one argues the guy's production. but why, if he was KILLING the ball, would the rangers trade him? and why, if he's continuing to kill the ball, is NY (possibly) ready to trade him?
he wore out his welcome with two teams in the span of three years. dude, barry bonds hasn't even managed that feat. players of his caliber are not dealt this often.
but you can't tell me that the guy "underachieved" in his years with the Rangers... his numbers speak for themself.
again, i'm certainly not arguing about his production. the question is why are so many teams eager to give up on that kind of production?
Also, I can't take any stock in what the Texas freakin Rangers have done at all over the last 10 years...
would you put any stock in what the yankees have done over the last 10 years?
NJRocket
10-09-2006, 11:27 AM
Re-sign Pettitte
Figure out a way to get Dontrelle in here
Sign either Lee or Soriano (assuming Soriano would stay in LF)
Use Mo, Willie, Burke (especially if we have a shot at Soriano and he wants to play 2b), Lidge, Qualls, Luke, AE and Lamb as trade bait (obviously not all of them but a package of any 2 or 3) and see what we can bring.
Consider it a bonus if we can Roger to pitch 3/4 of the season again for his "last" go around.
no one argues the guy's production. but why, if he was KILLING the ball, would the rangers trade him? and why, if he's continuing to kill the ball, is NY (possibly) ready to trade him?
The Rangers had no financial flexibility with hiim on the roster (along with paying Park's $12million salary). They weren't going to get better. A-Rod knew that, and also wanted to go to a better team. The Rangers needed far too many other pieces that they couldn't get with ARod on the team... they also had other guys coming up who could put up similar numbers (or at least all-star like numbers in Blalock, Texiera). In other words, they had more needs, and viewed his bat as superfluous.
The Yankees wanted A-Rod to continue to put up his numbers... but also be the one to get a big hit in every post-season game. He only did one of those (and won an MVP in the process). Again, the Yankees have enough resources/players that they don't need ARod. But if they have him, he sure makes a great scape-goat. Also, the reason why the Yankees didn't win is because they thought they could out hit everybody... not because ARod had a bad series (nearly everybody on that team had a bad series).
he wore out his welcome with two teams in the span of three years. dude, barry bonds hasn't even managed that feat. players of his caliber are not dealt this often.
A-Rod is a lot more like Charles Barkley than he is like Terrell Owens. He's such a great talent, but he's been in two situations which were pretty much "no-win" scenarios before he ever stepped on the scene... 1. the rangers are perenially underacheiving, and they couldn't get any better with his contract... frankly, they never should have gave it to him. 2. if he wins with the Yankees, its because they're supposed to win... look at their roster/payroll. if he loses with the yankees (even if he puts up MVP numbers), people who don't like him point out his character flaws (which he has) that makes him so easy to be the scape-goat. Randy Johnson deserves blame... Giambi deserves blame... but A-Rod gets the most of it.
again, i'm certainly not arguing about his production. the question is why are so many teams eager to give up on that kind of production?
Mostly because those teams had A-Rod as a luxury... not as a necessity. His production on an actual TEAM like the Astros (who already know that pitching/defense wins games) would be infinitely more valuable than his ho-hum 30-50 HR's on a Yankees team that has 3 other guys capable of big numbers... or his 57 HR's on a Rangers team that can't get anybody out.
Do you honestly think circumstances would be the same if he was on an Astro team with Oswalt, Pettite, Clemens in a rotation... with the 3-headed bullpen... and a balanced lefty-righty lineup with Berkman, Scott, Biggio and Taveras surrounding him? If he still gets 30-40 HR's on this team, and they don't make the playoffs, I don't think anybody would be blaming him... they'd be blaming the areas which let the team down.
Even as much flack as Bagwell/Biggio got for not hitting well in the 90's playoffs, nobody was that eager to run them out of town.
would you put any stock in what the yankees have done over the last 10 years?
Not since they started spending ridiculously/unwisely after they lost the 2001 World Series. A-rod wasn't there when they flopped in 2002. A-Rod wasn't there when their lineup was dominated by YOUNG pitching (Beckett) in 2003. The Yankees consider their year a failure when they don't win the world series... if they want to scape goat A-Rod for all the reasons why that hasn't happened, fine.
In other words, they had more needs, and viewed his bat as superfluous.
nick, please list ANY other major league EVER that is in, or even near arod's class who, in their prime, were deemed "superfluous." that's such a ringing indictment.
A-Rod knew that, and also wanted to go to a better team.
coughcoughbull****coughcough.
four teams actively pursued alex rodriguez in 2001:
the mariners, who were coming off a 91-win season; the braves, who were 9 years into their 14-year reign in the nl east; the mets, who were a year removed from a world series appearence, and the rangers, who had finished 71-91 the year before.
he followed the money and scampered from the spotlight. he had a chance to JUST WIN, and settled for counting his money, instead.
as for the rangers being handicapped by rodriguez; that, too, is BS. they gave park a $60M contract aftersigning arod. they had money; they just didn't know how to spend it effectively.
But if they have him, he sure makes a great scape-goat.
seems like joe torre is the scapegoat. in theory, you want to KEEP your best players. i didn't see the cardinals offering up pujols last year, or the astros shopping berkman this year when the teams failed to meet expectations. hell, the yankees don't seem to be in a hurry to unload anyone else.
He's such a great talent, but he's been in two situations which were pretty much "no-win" scenarios before he ever stepped on the scene...
scenarios he created.
If he still gets 30-40 HR's on this team, and they don't make the playoffs, I don't think anybody would be blaming him... they'd be blaming the areas which let the team down.
i don't believe that.
sincerely,
david carr.
if the astros go out and get ANY stick and DON'T make the playoffs, that person will be criticized, especially if clemens and pettite are back.
Even as much flack as Bagwell/Biggio got for not hitting well in the 90's playoffs, nobody was that eager to run them out of town.
oh, yes they did. biggio and bagwell's "failures" in the playoffs were a CONSTANT source of irritation for a lot of knee-jerk, moron fans here.
You're honestly telling me that if A-Rod puts up his average career numbers here and the team doesn't make the playoffs... HE will be the scapegoat?
David Carr didn't have a 40TD, 4,000 yard season... he had a bad season, on a worse team, and got the blame... most of it undeservedly, but there was some reason to point the finger at him. That's an awful comparison.
Bagwell/Biggio were bad... and a lot of people were upset about it... but people who actually follow the game would understand the science behind small sample sizes, combined with facing some of the best pitchers in the 90's. Barry Bonds was also terrible in the playoffs at one point too... then 2002 happened.
If you have a problem with A-rod, fine... a lot of people don't like a guy who cares about his image a ton. I couldn't care less about his image. Frankly, I couldn't care less if he blows off the media or never buys a house in Houston. I couldn't care less if he never hung out with anybody in the clubhouse on off days.
If the guy comes here and is good at his job... THAT will be the thing I judge him on, not some pre-set/royalty standard that some of you seem to think he should live up to.
(also, "problem guys", which I still think its silly for A-rod to be considered... seem to be doing pretty good this playoffs: Frank Thomas, Milton Bradley, Kenny Rogers, Nomar, Kent... sometimes it takes the right team.)
You're honestly telling me that if A-Rod puts up his average career numbers here and the team doesn't make the playoffs... HE will be the scapegoat?
dude, he won an MVP last year is being scapegoated. so yes. when you make $25M a year, the expectations change.
That's an awful comparison.
it's a glimpse into the thought process of fans; you and i can appreciate the improvements carr's made, but the vast majority are married to the notion this is still 2005 and always will be for him. you know that.
Bagwell/Biggio were bad... and a lot of people were upset about it... but people who actually follow the game would understand the science behind small sample sizes, combined with facing some of the best pitchers in the 90's. Barry Bonds was also terrible in the playoffs at one point too... then 2002 happened.
nick, those reasonable people are few and far between. you know that, too.
If you have a problem with A-rod, fine...
i don't have a problem, per se. i perceive a problem.
i've asked you this in the context of most of my responses: we know he's great, on the field. so why is he wearing out his welcome? not just in ny, but in arlington and seattle, too. no one seems to lose any sleep over him leaving.
(potentially) 4 teams since 2000. name another player who's as good and has played for as many teams. it just doesn't happen.
i believe in numbers. i think too many people make too much about intangibles that don't exist and can't be measured. but the circumstanstial evidence surrounding arod DOES exist. the day the rangers signed him, one of the talk show hosts up there said, "i'm so excited, i may pee on myself." it took 2.5 years to sour EVERYONE up there on him AND HE WON AN MVP!!!
i mean, it wasn't like he didn't earn his money; he did.
something's amiss about the guy.
i don't have a problem, per se. i perceive a problem.
i've asked you this in the context of most of my responses: we know he's great, on the field. so why is he wearing out his welcome? not just in ny, but in arlington and seattle, too. no one seems to lose any sleep over him leaving.
(potentially) 4 teams since 2000. name another player who's as good and has played for as many teams. it just doesn't happen.
i believe in numbers. i think too many people make too much about intangibles that don't exist and can't be measured. but the circumstanstial evidence surrounding arod DOES exist. the day the rangers signed him, one of the talk show hosts up there said, "i'm so excited, i may pee on myself." it took 2.5 years to sour EVERYONE up there on him AND HE WON AN MVP!!!
i mean, it wasn't like he didn't earn his money; he did.
something's amiss about the guy.
The only real problem with him that I can see and is not even percieved is his contract. He hampers most clubs from spending money on other players. If the fans/team have a problem with their standings/playoff hopes, the managment has to think about moving him to free up some dollars to actually make the changes needed.
I would (as would most fans) be pissed if we paid someone his $$$$ and didn't get into the playoffs or go deep. He is a great player, but when he is the most expensive guy on the team, your expectations have to change.
We are just now getting out from under Bagwell's $$$$ contract. I just don't see Drayton going after this guy materializing as a real possiblity. If they Yankees throw him our way . . . whose to say, but us trying to go out and get him, when we need to pay for starting pitching? I don't think so.
Something's also amiss in the organizations he's played for... THAT you can't deny.
Seattle had a good thing going... but they may have gotten a little too full of themselves after having success after all their big stars left. In the end, their 116 win season barely got them out of the first round, and then subsequently bounced by the Yankees. Since then, they've made the horrible mistakes by overpaying for guys in their FA years (Beltre, Sexon), and being unable to get enough arms to fill a rotation or bullpen.
The Rangers had problems before Arod, and still have problems after. If they thought he was a cure-all... which I'm guessing by your recant of Dallas' response when they got him... that's their fault.
The Yankees have problems that are not A-rod related as well. More fingers should be pointed at Randy Johnson. More fingers should be pointed at the crap that makes up their bullpen before you get to Mariano.
I don't really know what we're arguing... I understand that the "common fan" will think A-rod is a cancer if their team doesn't win, and I understand the "NY" fan will jump all over him and long for the days of Paul O'neil and Andy Pettite. That still doesn't mean he doesn't make this team better.
I understand that the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming... but by taking a look at each of the situations he was in, and the decision that was made, it really is just that... circumstantial.
If there is something "cosmic" about A-rod that contributes to destroying whatever team he plays for, then it will have to match wits with the "cosmic" force of the Astros that seems to have a team in position to win every single year no matter what the circumstances...
Frankly, I think its all baloney... I believe that organizations as a whole stand or fall.. and if one player can have enough of an impact to destroy/ruin the team, then that team wasn't all that strong to begin with.
NJRocket
10-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Just a side note....ARods salary portion to whoever he plays for for the next season (should he get traded) is 64 million over the 4 yrs....16 mil per year....big diff than 25. Love to see him at MMP.
(potentially) 4 teams since 2000. name another player who's as good and has played for as many teams. it just doesn't happen.
While I see where you're coming from, several guys *were* listed earlier. Did you miss them? Admittedly, they did it in more than 4 years.
Other very good guys who bounced around more quickly (but may not be in the class of A-Rod or Bonds):
Beltran (three teams)
Don Sutton (three teams)
Randy Johnson (four teams close together, five total)
Kevin Brown (four teams)
Johnny Damon (three teams)
Sandy Alomar, Jr. (CWS, Col, CWS, Tex, LA, CWS????)
Robbie Alomar: Cle, Mets, CWS, & Ari in 4 seasons
Kenny freaking Lofton -- almost one team per year. That guy should set his goal to play for every franchise before retiring
...and I didn't even try too hard. These guys aren't A-Rod, but we shouldn't act like bouncing around is so freakish. In today's game, it's just not.
Scott Rolen - multiple teams/controversy
Gary Sheffield - multiple teams
Ivan Rodriguez - multiple teams
Curt Schilling - multiple teams
Mike Piazza - multiple teams
Greg Maddux - multiple teams, multiple times
Sometimes, a player is born into an organization and he just sticks... Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman, Oswalt... or Jeter. But most of the time, that doesn't happen.
But to say A-rod is worse than a guy like JD Drew is ridiculous. That guy (Drew) passed up on one team that drafted him, went to another, stated he wouldn't sign a long term deal and got traded, then passed up the team that traded him for more money. But, I guarantee you that if JD Drew was a free agent this year... he'd still get a lot of postive vibes from teams... even though the guy is one of the biggest underachievers ever.
Hell, tommorow Richard Justice may write an article saying the Astros should propose a trade for JD Drew... stating he "just needs the right enviornment, and minute maid park, to become the player we always knew he would be." or some garbage like that.
McGriff
Omar Moreno :D
Sean Casey
Tony Perez (but he was OLD)
Will Clark--3 teams, 3 years
Lee Smith--should be in the Hall of Fame, 7 teams in 8 seasons
Maris -- 3 teams, 4 years
This happens a *lot*.
NJRocket
10-09-2006, 02:13 PM
trying to think of that pitcher's name....he was on like 4 different teams...won a bunch of cy youngs...won the world series...strikeout pitcher...older guy...anyone? ;)
weslinder
10-09-2006, 02:16 PM
trying to think of that pitcher's name....he was on like 4 different teams...won a bunch of cy youngs...won the world series...strikeout pitcher...older guy...anyone? ;)
Randy Johnson!
Did you miss them?
i guess i did.
beltran, johnson and damon were all dealt in the final year of their contracts by clubs hoping to get something in leiu of nothing. and then each moved on when they were free agents several months later. significantly different from trading a recent MVP. in fact, he was dealt the year after winning his first mvp in '03 and could be dealt just a year removed from winning his second mvp. it's unprecendented.
most of nick's guys were aging free agents who moved around and begged for takers late in their careers. none (with the expection of rolen and sheffiled) were dealt in their prime, let alone multiple times in their prime. rolen's been on two teams in his career and is nowhere as good as arod, anyway, so i don't see how he's relevant. sheffield has worn out his welcome in A LOT OF PLACES. are you comparing him to arod, because if so....
and how did jd drew fall into the mix?
look, arod is one of the five best players in baseball. you could argue he's THE best player in baseball. and he's 31 years old. and about to play on his 3 team in 4 years. after winning MVPs in two of those years.
something's amiss.
trying to think of that pitcher's name....he was on like 4 different teams...won a bunch of cy youngs...won the world series...strikeout pitcher...older guy...anyone? ;)
Hey, I listed one and Nick listed the other. :)
This happens a *lot*.
yes; it happens a lot. to aging veterans, has-beens and never weres. it does NOT happen to guys in their primes who've won 2 of the last 4 MVP awards.
i guess i did.
And you still have. The first list included Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens.
yes; it happens a lot. to aging veterans, has-beens and never weres. it does NOT happen to guys in their primes who've won 2 of the last 4 MVP awards.
I'll add Babe Ruth to my list. ;)
in fact, he was dealt the year after winning his first mvp in '03 and could be dealt just a year removed from winning his second mvp. it's unprecendented.
Rogers Hornsby, perhaps the greatest 2B of all time, won the MVP in 1925 for the Cardinals. After the 1926 season (the year after he won the MVP), he was traded to the New York Giants and finished 3rd on the MVP ballot. The very next season, he was with Boston Braves. The very next season, he won his second MVP, only he was with the Cubs.
Rogers. Freaking. Hornsby. Four teams, four years, two MVPs (admittedly, the 2nd after the last team).
Not quite the same, but I sure found that awfully quick for this to be some freakish anamoly.
Yes, the guy's not a clubhouse Bagwell, but you're making a bigger deal of this than it is IMO.
yes; it happens a lot. to aging veterans, has-beens and never weres. it does NOT happen to guys in their primes who've won 2 of the last 4 MVP awards.
It does when said player was in two of the worst situations possible for any player:
The Texas Rangers = baseball's version of the current NY Knicks.
The Yankees = he would have had to win the triple crown (which he almost did), save three babies from burning buildings, cure the affore-mentioned cancer, and win the world series every year to live up to the apparent expectations that NY had for him.
Yes, he did leave Seattle for the money... are you really faulting him for that? Several "more reputible" citizens have done the exact same thing, performed WORSE once they got to their new team, and haven't gotten even half the criticism that A-Rod did. It wasn't like the guy sucked as a Ranger... his team sucked (mainly because of stupid decisions by their now fired GM).
Also, had he worn out his welcome on any of the non-dysfunctional organizations (Astros, Cardinals, A's, Padres, for example)... we could really start to ponder the "inherent flaws" of A-rod.
But, if the only sample size is his departure from the clueless Rangers, and his departure from the dysfunctional Yankees... you need more to convince me that there's really something more wrong with A-rod, than the way those organizations have constructed their teams.
The only thing left would be for A-Rod to go and fail for the Cubs (another dysfunctional bunch)... his conquest would then be complete.
Rogers Hornsby
so, you had to go back 80-something years? you're right; not the least uncommon.
It does when said player was in two of the worst situations possible for any player
again, situations he created. and the rangers are far from baseball's version of the knicks. remember, they won 89 games the year after he left.
But, if the only sample size is his departure from the clueless Rangers, and his departure from the dysfunctional Yankees... you need more to convince me that there's really something more wrong with A-rod, than the way those organizations have constructed their teams.
fair enough. but then again, if teams were trying to right their ship... wouldn't it makes sense to hold onto its best player and the league's best player two of the previous 4 years?
you seem to think he'd fix a lot of what ails the astros... wouldn't he also fix what ailed/ails the rangers and/or yankees?
i have nothing against arod personally. but he seems to come with A LOT of baggage and he's been a... let's go with, "rough" fit in his last three clubhouses.
so, you had to go back 80-something years? you're right; not the least uncommon.
Come on, that's a weak response and you typically respond much more strongly than that. You said unprecedented. Without even trying very hard, I found something. So you come back with uncommon. What if I find five more? Are you going to change your adjective again?
You're making a bigger deal of this than it is.
he'd fix a lot of what ails the astros... wouldn't he also fix what ailed/ails the rangers and/or yankees?
Huh? I didn't realize their situations were so similar. You mean the Yankees are struggling for offense as well?
Burzmali
10-09-2006, 02:56 PM
look, arod is one of the five best players in baseball. you could argue he's THE best player in baseball. and he's 31 years old. and about to play on his 3 team in 4 years. after winning MVPs in two of those years.
something's amiss.
You lay out all these supporting points, but you never really tell us what the F you are saying.
Something is amiss? What exactly, can you explain us your entire F-ing argument against Arod?
He left Seattle to get paid.
He left Texas because they sucked. Texas sucked because the team had no pitching.
He might leave New York because the expectations there are so high, it's an impossible situation.
How is any of this an indication that something is wrong with the player?
Another factor to keep in mind in his changing of teams is his enormous contract.
I just fail to see the connection between him changing teams, and something fundmentally wrong with the player which would make his acquisition have a negative impact on the Astros.
And nobody is saying that getting him will gaurantee a WS. He will however, undoubtedly improve the offense tremendously by providing enormous right handed production and protection for Berkman in the lineup.
again, situations he created. and the rangers are far from baseball's version of the knicks. remember, they won 89 games the year after he left..
Did he tell the Rangers to go sign Chan Ho Park? Did he demand that the Rangers pay $100 million more than the very next bidder? Had the Rangers woke up and stopped bidding against themselves... maybe they do have enough money to fix the team despite signing park... maybe their GM still has his job. A-Rod would have signed for $150 million... but don't blame the guy for accepting an offer of $250 million when its available. Every single person out there would have done the same thing.
fair enough. but then again, if teams were trying to right their ship... wouldn't it makes sense to hold onto its best player and the league's best player two of the previous 4 years?.
Theoretically, on any other team, yes. The Yankees, however, are not just "any other team." Winning 100 games every year, but calling your year a failure if you don't win the World Series are not aspects of "every other team". Unfortunately for A-rod, that's the team he's on... and when that said team also has Abreu, Giambi, Damon, Jeter, and Matsui for offense... you can see why they can afford to "not like his attitude", and throw his offense away.
Also, had Biggio or Bagwell been on the Yankees, and struggled like they did in the playoffs for the Astros, they're probably meeting the same fate as A-rod... but since they play for Houston, they're still the face of the franchise that has never won a World Series game. Funny how that works out.
you seem to think he'd fix a lot of what ails the astros... wouldn't he also fix what ailed/ails the rangers and/or yankees?.
Richie Justice said in his column, "he's the last guy you want at the plate with the game on the line." I just thought to myself, "you know what, you're right... I'd much rather have Willy Taveras, Adam Everett, or Morgan Ensberg up... thanks."
Rangers and Yankees have plenty of offensive players... the Astros do not.
i have nothing against arod personally. but he seems to come with A LOT of baggage and he's been a... let's go with, "rough" fit in his last three clubhouses.
That's totally understandable... and its the price he has to pay for being the world's best player, the world's most expensive player, and playing in the media capitol of the world where every one of his transgressions are magnified.
However, Jeff Kent had a ton more baggage. Beltran was a loner. Carl Everett had problems before everywhere else. The Astros aren't exactly inexperienced when it comes to "clubhouse cancers"... if you can really call A-rod that (he doesn't have even close to half the transgressions on him that TO has in that department).
Buck Turgidson
10-09-2006, 03:20 PM
so, you had to go back 80-something years? you're right; not the least uncommon.
Well, considering that your criteria includes winning 2 MVPs in a 4-5 year span, it's not surprising. There's only been 15 guys to do it in the post-WWII era.
And you still have. The first list included Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens.
no, i saw them, and addressed them both.
nolan ryan spent 8 years with the angels and left as a free agent to come home to texas. he wasn't traded; he certainly wasn't traded (twice) while winning two cy youngs in 4 years. clemens spent 13 years with the red sox and was 5 years removed from his last top 10 finish in cy young voting. he also was not traded, but left via free agency.
and had it not been for inept management, both probably would have never made another move.
clemens spent 13 years with the red sox and was 5 years removed from his last top 10 finish in cy young voting. he also was not traded, but left via free agency.
Clemens didn't just leave the Red Sox as a free agent... he was KICKED OUT. He then gets TRADED after his Cy Young season (and possibly best season) to the Yankees. Granted, its all circumstantial, but still an example of a player being moved after stellar seasons... it does happen.
and had it not been for inept management, both probably would have never made another move.
Just like the same inept management that signs a player for more than $100 million than the next highest bidder? Just like the same inept management that gives Chan Ho Park a $60 million dollar deal that completely eliminates payroll flexibility?
Come on...
What if I find five more? Are you going to change your adjective again?
yes, i actually would.
You mean the Yankees are struggling for offense as well?
so your argument is that the line-up is so good, the team can afford to lose the best player in baseball in favor of inferior talent? that's what you'd do?
He left Seattle to get paid.
wait - i thought it was to win????????
He left Texas because they sucked.
that sucky team won 89 games the year after he left and have posted a 248-238 record overall since he left. but they probably didn't need the best player in baseball - he is, after all, according to some here, superfluous.
He left Texas... He might leave New York...
let's make a very clear distinction, he's not "leaving" as if he's coming and going on his own accord - he's been/being traded. two teams over a four-year span have soured on having the best player in baseball on their roster.
Another factor to keep in mind in his changing of teams is his enormous contract.
yeah, great point. the yankees generally have trouble holding onto high-priced talent. especially when another team is paying half the contract.
I just fail to see the connection between him changing teams, and something fundmentally wrong with the player which would make his acquisition have a negative impact on the Astros.
again, it's not like he's signed a series of one-year contracts. he's the best player in baseball, and no one seems to want him.
there may be no connection; there may be nothing to it. but those of us who witnessed the arod era in dallas know - there's just something off about the guy..... he was an MVP in his prime and the team could wait to trade him... that just doesn't happen... well, excpet, i guess, every 80 years.
i don't believe in intangibles, per se. produce on the field, and the rest takes care of itself. but i just find it... curious that two teams in four years have grown tired of whatever it is he is or isn't doing.
That's totally understandable... and its the price he has to pay for being the world's best player, the world's most expensive player, and playing in the media capitol of the world where every one of his transgressions are magnified.
except... he wasn't in new york when he was in arlington; on the baseball scale of things, he was as far removed from it as humanly possible. and yet, the same whispers, same concerns, and it looks like the same results reared their ugly head there.
so it's not a case of "ew york" getting to him.
Clemens didn't just leave the Red Sox as a free agent... he was KICKED OUT. He then gets TRADED after his Cy Young season (and possibly best season) to the Yankees. Granted, its all circumstantial, but still an example of a player being moved after stellar seasons... it does happen.
no, his contract ended after two seasons in which he posted a combined 3.82 era and 1.39 whip after five seasons of 2.77/1.13. a) those aren't stellar seasons; b) the red sox were d-e-a-d wrong.
he forced the toronto deal to new york, invoking some loophole trade situation he had in his contract that still makes no sense. regardless, clemens forced the deal; the blue jays' hands were tied.
Just like the same inept management that signs a player for more than $100 million than the next highest bidder? Just like the same inept management that gives Chan Ho Park a $60 million dollar deal that completely eliminates payroll flexibility?
ok; fine. the rangers are inept. we'll chalk them trading the best player in baseball and reigning mvp to that.
so what's the yankees' excuse?
Groogrux
10-09-2006, 04:00 PM
ok; fine. the rangers are inept. we'll chalk them trading the best player in baseball and reigning mvp to that.
so what's the yankees' excuse?
I would say that media attention would be first and foremost. He's a distraction because of the media and fans. I'll be interested to hear if there's any talk from Yankee players regarding his clubhouse manner if he's moved in the offseason.
except... he wasn't in new york when he was in arlington; on the baseball scale of things, he was as far removed from it as humanly possible. and yet, the same whispers, same concerns, and it looks like the same results reared their ugly head there.
so it's not a case of "ew york" getting to him.
What are those whispers? what are those concerns? What are those "same results rearing their ugly head"?
Its like you're speaking in freaking code-language here.
The ONLY analysis I've made is that his numbers speak for themselves, and if you plug his numbers on the Astros (playing 3B or SS), and in MMP, and in weak NL, it HELPS this team immensely (a team that has only ONE above average hitter in its everyday lineup).
We've spent the whole day talking about what is "inherently" wrong with A-rod, but at the end of the day, NOTHING substantial has been said except "hmm... you have to wonder about a guy who keeps on having to change teams." And that point is continuing to be brought up while the ones which actually look at how the teams he was on were constructed, along with their dumb decisions/"skewed" ideology are ignored.
I would expect that sort of flawed logic/reasoning from Richard Justice... but not from a guy with your knowledge.
Burzmali
10-09-2006, 04:01 PM
there may be no connection; there may be nothing to it. but those of us who witnessed the arod era in dallas know - there's just something off about the guy..... he was an MVP in his prime and the team could wait to trade him... that just doesn't happen... well, excpet, i guess, every 80 years.
i don't believe in intangibles, per se. produce on the field, and the rest takes care of itself. but i just find it... curious that two teams in four years have grown tired of whatever it is he is or isn't doing.
Excuse the rest of us for not wanting the Astros to add a very productive player because you think that there is, "something off about the guy".
yes, i actually would.
Then you'd get killed in L-D debate. ;)
so your argument is that the line-up is so good, the team can afford to lose the best player in baseball in favor of inferior talent? that's what you'd do?
No, my argument is (to repeat myself again): you're making a bigger deal of this than it is.
Way to take the argument in circles. You said, "he'd fix a lot of what ails the astros... wouldn't he also fix what ailed/ails the rangers and/or yankees?" That statement plainly implies that the needs of both clubs are the same (unless A-Rod is a pitcher, too), and I called you on it. Clubs deal from positions of strength. If you don't like that maxim, you can take it up with Gerry Hunsicker, Tim Purpura, and countless other professionals who have said the same thing. As far as the words you tried to put in my mouth, sorry. Your argument is getting weaker and weaker, and you're resorting to an increasing number of logical fallacies to prop it up.
We've spent the whole day talking about what is "inherently" wrong with A-rod, but at the end of the day, NOTHING substantial has been said except "hmm... you have to wonder about a guy who keeps on having to change teams." And that point is continuing to be brought up while the ones which actually look at how the teams he was on were constructed, along with their dumb decisions/"skewed" ideology are ignored.
I would expect that sort of flawed logic/reasoning from Richard Justice... but not from a guy with your knowledge.
Well said, and I'm scratching my head about it, too.
I would say that media attention would be first and foremost. He's a distraction because of the media and fans. I'll be interested to hear if there's any talk from Yankee players regarding his clubhouse manner if he's moved in the offseason.
The Yankees are becoming a joke... a freaking joke... a freaking cartoon caricatrure of its past "glory" joke.
Yes... they can win 100 games every year for the money they spend. That is inevitable... its why they play 162 games... its why baseball is so wonderful in that players always get to their "career average" somehow/someway over the course of an entire season.
But, to expect all of that success to translate over a breif 5 game series, when you could be facing 3 pitchers who are capable of shutting down ANYBODY on any given night... is really stupid.
The Yankees brought all of this on themselves... they aren't victims of A-Rod's fragile ego, Randy Johnson's bad back, Carl Pavano's non-existance, the Astros stealing of Andy Pettite/Roger Clemens... they're the victims of creating expectations simply based on a large payroll which only guarantees them success over a LARGE sample size.
Now, if they were actually spending all the money they do on the lineup all on pitching... from top to bottom... on guys who are actually in their prime (or can hold up an entire season)... their fate may have been different.
NJRocket
10-09-2006, 04:12 PM
let's make a very clear distinction, he's not "leaving" as if he's coming and going on his own accord - he's been/being traded. two teams over a four-year span have soured on having the best player in baseball on their roster.
.
i think it has more to do with a team like Texas and/or NY saying..."ok, we need a change...lets take a shot. what on our roster would bring us the most?"
owners/gms will always look at their highest paid players when they are looking for a reason why they arent winning...as if the player(s) in question are never doing *enuf*. A Rod is a likable player and not a cancer in the clubhouse so to speak...so it makes him an even more desirable piece of trade bait
fact is, other than Texas, Seattle and the Yanks (if he ends up getting traded) can/did look at the situation on the whole and say that losing him wont/didnt change their level of production....and if they can/were able to bring in young talent, it makes sense.
NJRocket
10-09-2006, 04:15 PM
The Yankees brought all of this on themselves... they aren't victims of A-Rod's fragile ego, Randy Johnson's bad back, Carl Pavano's non-existance, the Astros stealing of Andy Pettite/Roger Clemens... they're the victims of creating expectations simply based on a large payroll which only guarantees them success over a LARGE sample size.
Now, if they were actually spending all the money they do on the lineup all on pitching... from top to bottom... on guys who are actually in their prime (or can hold up an entire season)... their fate may have been different.
good post Nick
funny thing is that if the Yankees had Roger and Andy this season instead of A Rod and Sheff, they would probably still be playing....amazing that the yanks havent learned that pitching wins championships
good post Nick
funny thing is that if the Yankees had Roger and Andy this season instead of A Rod and Sheff, they would probably still be playing....amazing that the yanks havent learned that pitching wins championships
I think they know that... they always try to add the top FA starting pitcher every year they can. Its just that pitchers always tend to get hurt more than hitters... in hindsight, they spend a ton of money everywhere, but they don't have enough luck with pitching to win these short series every year:
1.) Pavano barely ever pitches for them
2.) Randy Johnson is no longer effective/hurt
3.) Mussina is still great, but aging
4.) Wang is home-grown... a bargain for them
5.) Wasted many years and lots of $$$ on the aging/injured Kevin Brown
6.) Are then forced to put valuable playoff series games in the hands of Jared Wright, Jon Lieber, Shawn Chacon, Al Leiter?!?, etc.
And, that's not even touching some of their bullpen acquisitions.
We'll see what happens this off-season... something tells me that the main moves they're going to make are 1.) sign zito, 2.) sign Jason Schmidt 3.) trade $$$ for Dontrelle Willis.
Then, we can see if this theory hold true... those would be 3 pitchers in their primes, to go along with Wang and Mussina.
I'll be interested to hear if there's any talk from Yankee players regarding his clubhouse manner if he's moved in the offseason.
there has been; tom verducci did a story about it for SI:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/09/19/arod0925/index.html
nick, read said article in response to your, "What are those whispers? what are those concerns?" query. as for "same results" - teams trading him despite overwhelming results on the field of play that they shouldn't.
he's the best player in baseball.
and he's been traded twice. in four years. while winning two mvps. take a step back and examine that sequence... and then tell me it doesn't at least raise a small red flag. you can dismiss the organizations all you want. the common running theme, however, is alex rodriguez.
I would expect that sort of flawed logic/reasoning from Richard Justice... but not from a guy with your knowledge.
fair enough.
again, if you didn't live in seattle or dallas or don't live in new york, it's difficult to explain. he's obviously been productive on the field. but guys like that don't often get traded. twice. in four years. blah, blah, blah.
you're right; it's nothing substantial. it's nothing quantifiable. it may be NOTHING at all beyond mere coincidence. but i don't think it is. just MO.
Astroholic
10-09-2006, 04:53 PM
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g243/metlover15/AlexRodriguez_WEB.jpg
Make it happen...
you're right; it's nothing substantial. it's nothing quantifiable. it may be NOTHING at all beyond mere coincidence. but i don't think it is. just MO.
If this was any other sport... where TEAM play really dictated success/failure, or where cohesiveness/chemistry was more important than individual stats... I wouldn't touch A-rod (just as the cowboys shouldn't have touched TO and how teams should be weary of Ron Artest).
But, baseball is different. Baseball is the only sport where a guy would get away with not having to travel with the team just because he's not pitching that series. The Yankees have mis-matched enough "big egos" over the last 5-6 years, and it still doesn't stop them from winning 100 games a year. I'm asking for the Astros to attempt to add ONE reportedly troubled, but talented, player to a group that is perceived as a bunch of "good guys." (at least that's what we think, thanks to the non-invasive Houston media... and great PR by the Astros. The truth may be Oswalt is an ass, Berkman is a racist, Luke Scott scares babies... but we'll never hear about it here).
As I said before... I don't care if the whole world is mad at A-rod, and his own teammates are coming up with new ways to insult him... if he's still putting up those types of numbers, he makes this team better.
MONON
10-09-2006, 08:37 PM
If this was any other sport... where TEAM play really dictated success/failure, or where cohesiveness/chemistry was more important than individual stats... I wouldn't touch A-rod (just as the cowboys shouldn't have touched TO and how teams should be weary of Ron Artest).
But, baseball is different. Baseball is the only sport where a guy would get away with not having to travel with the team just because he's not pitching that series. The Yankees have mis-matched enough "big egos" over the last 5-6 years, and it still doesn't stop them from winning 100 games a year. I'm asking for the Astros to attempt to add ONE reportedly troubled, but talented, player to a group that is perceived as a bunch of "good guys." (at least that's what we think, thanks to the non-invasive Houston media... and great PR by the Astros. The truth may be Oswalt is an ass, Berkman is a racist, Luke Scott scares babies... but we'll never hear about it here).
As I said before... I don't care if the whole world is mad at A-rod, and his own teammates are coming up with new ways to insult him... if he's still putting up those types of numbers, he makes this team better.
I agree that we should try to get ARod; but personality wise, don't even mention him in the same sentence as TO or Artest. An all star SS deferred to Jeter & played 3d base. ARod is a team player.
Astroholic
10-09-2006, 09:09 PM
If not A-Rod, Tejada would fit in flawlessly in our line up. Solid defender as is Everett, but now let's add on his .330 average with 100rbi's.
bobrek
10-09-2006, 09:28 PM
If not A-Rod, Tejada would fit in flawlessly in our line up. Solid defender as is Everett, but now let's add on his .330 average with 100rbi's.
I don't know if I'd call Tejada's 65 errors over the past 3 years "solid". He is certainly an offensive force, but is not even in the same ballpark as Everett defensively.
Astroholic
10-09-2006, 09:35 PM
I don't know if I'd call Tejada's 65 errors over the past 3 years "solid". He is certainly an offensive force, but is not even in the same ballpark as Everett defensively.
No one is in the same ball park defensively at short stop as Everett. He is the best defender bar none. I sure wouldn't mind Tejada's bat in the line up though. A-Rod would be the best move in your opinion?
htownballa23
10-09-2006, 10:19 PM
No one is in the same ball park defensively at short stop as Everett. He is the best defender bar none. I sure wouldn't mind Tejada's bat in the line up though. A-Rod would be the best move in your opinion?
How about we just take A-Rod, and put him back at short. That way our second weakest hitting position will turn into the best, and we can still have Ensberg/Lamb and possibly Huff right beside at third base.
DieHard Rocket
10-09-2006, 11:04 PM
I think Arod would make a pretty terrible defensive SS at this point in his career ... he had his problems at 3B this year, and I'm sure his range isn't as good as it used to be.
I'd prefer to get Carlos Lee, a better hitting catcher, and trade for a nice pitcher. Then talk Pettitte and hopefully Clemens into coming back for another run. You take on Arod's contract and you ruin a lot of flexibility that we have right now with money and trade pieces that we'd give up for him.
rezdawg
10-09-2006, 11:07 PM
I dont want to go into the season with AE and Ausmus bringing up the rear of the lineup...thats just brutal. Replacing Adam with ARod would be the biggest offensive change we could possible think of...that would be unreal.
Astroholic
10-09-2006, 11:15 PM
I dont want to go into the season with AE and Ausmus bringing up the rear of the lineup...thats just brutal. Replacing Adam with ARod would be the biggest offensive change we could possible think of...that would be unreal.
Amen.
redracer1
10-10-2006, 12:53 AM
Ausmus should just be a backup catcher next season whenever Pettite or Clemens(if both of them resigns) pitch. These two veteran pitchers prefers Ausmus to be their catcher. Meanwhile Everrett should be retained because of his defense but I wouldn't mind replacing with a good batting SS with comparable capabilities on the defensive end.
I think Arod would make a pretty terrible defensive SS at this point in his career ... he had his problems at 3B this year, and I'm sure his range isn't as good as it used to be.
I'd prefer to get Carlos Lee, a better hitting catcher, and trade for a nice pitcher. Then talk Pettitte and hopefully Clemens into coming back for another run. You take on Arod's contract and you ruin a lot of flexibility that we have right now with money and trade pieces that we'd give up for him.
All conjecture... not enough facts. His 3B trouble seemed more equivalent to the "yips", then him actually losing all his range/defensive skills.
Yea... A-Rod wouldn't be as good of a defensive SS as Adam Everett... but his bat would be a helluva lot better than Chris Burke, Eric Bruntlett, or whichever other SS you want to throw out there to replace Adam right now (oh, btw, A-rod was still an above average SS before he went to NY... frankly, he was better than Derek Jeter. I don't think 2 years away from the position at age 31 = done).
You talk about wanting to sign Carlos Lee, and then you mention that A-Rod takes up payroll flexibility? A Rod's contract with the Yankees is 4 years 66 million... a little bit more than 16 million per year. You also assume that if the Yankees want to get rid of him, they WILL pick up part of that contract. The last I saw from Carlos Lee, he was turning down 14 mill per year from the Brewers... he wants 5 years 75 million... and he just may get it by being the "best" of the crappy free agents.
He's nowhere NEAR worth 15 million a year... not even close... not by a mile. Its like when the #1 pick in the NFL comes out in a weak draft... he still gets more than what the #1 pick got the year before, even if he's nowhere near the prospect. Its an awful premise, but that's free agency.
Thus, you get him taking up just as much (if not more) payroll than A-Rod would... except that guy plays the OF, whereas Arod is an infielder (far more valuable).
Ausmus should just be a backup catcher next season whenever Pettite or Clemens(if both of them resigns) pitch. These two veteran pitchers prefers Ausmus to be their catcher. Meanwhile Everrett should be retained because of his defense but I wouldn't mind replacing with a good batting SS with comparable capabilities on the defensive end.
Look at Oswalt's numbers when Ausmus stopped catching him in 2003 and mid 2004... and look at them when he started catching him again.
He can probably do it on his own now... but there's no doubt that he corrected some of the "patterns" that Roy was falling into with his pitch selection (hell, even I could predict when Roy was going to throw the curve or fastball in 2003).
Ausmus needs to be retained as pitching coach, if anything... he might be more valuable to us that way.
DieHard Rocket
10-10-2006, 02:45 PM
You talk about wanting to sign Carlos Lee, and then you mention that A-Rod takes up payroll flexibility? A Rod's contract with the Yankees is 4 years 66 million... a little bit more than 16 million per year. You also assume that if the Yankees want to get rid of him, they WILL pick up part of that contract. The last I saw from Carlos Lee, he was turning down 14 mill per year from the Brewers... he wants 5 years 75 million... and he just may get it by being the "best" of the crappy free agents.
He's nowhere NEAR worth 15 million a year... not even close... not by a mile. Its like when the #1 pick in the NFL comes out in a weak draft... he still gets more than what the #1 pick got the year before, even if he's nowhere near the prospect. Its an awful premise, but that's free agency.
Thus, you get him taking up just as much (if not more) payroll than A-Rod would... except that guy plays the OF, whereas Arod is an infielder (far more valuable).
You may be right about A-Rod's defense ... I don't know, I didn't see enough of him this year. Anyway...
It may be a crappy year for FA's (I haven't looked at them too much yet), but .300, 37 HR, 116 RBI are worthy numbers. I know we say this about every guy that we sign or look at (see Preston Wilson), but the Crawford Boxes and Carlos Lee sound good together.
Besides that, say the Yankees do pay part of A-Rod's salary ... maybe they take $5 million a year of it ... sure, we'd only be paying A-Rod $11 million, but look at all the pieces we'd have to give up to get him while still shelling out a ton of money for him. If we get Lee at $15 million a year, we still have all the pieces to trade if we wish to do so (say Dontrelle or another good young pitcher becomes available).
Lee is probably not worth $15 million a year, but hell, Bagwell wasn't worth what he was being payed the last 3 or 4 years and it didn't hurt us too much. We've got a chance to greatly improve the hitting and keeping the pitching at least as good, if not better. We have to take advantage of the window of opportunity ... and while A-rod shores up the hitting, we'll lose the possibility of making a big trade and signing a nice free agent by trading for him.
weslinder
10-10-2006, 02:52 PM
Make it happen...I love it. Only possible better situation is Miguel Cabrera. (He's a spokesman for my company. Maybe I can pull some strings.)
Lee is probably not worth $15 million a year, but hell, Bagwell wasn't worth what he was being payed the last 3 or 4 years and it didn't hurt us too much.
I agree that Lee would be a nice fit in this lineup... but you devote $15 million a year to somebody, they better at least be an MVP candidate (or have had a history of finishing near the top). Lee hasn't. I don't even know if somebody on the open market would pay him that much... if the Astros can get it down to $11 million, with incentives, Lee would have to consider that contract (if he was serious about coming to the Astros).
Also, Bagwell earned his contract by being possibly the best first baseman in National League history... sure, those last couple of years were a wash... but that's the case with MOST player's contracts in all sports. Oswalt will likely be considered "overpaid" in his last year, but if u want to keep him that's the sacrafice you have to make... same with Berkman.... same with Beltran.
leroy420
10-10-2006, 03:29 PM
I love it. Only possible better situation is Miguel Cabrera. (He's a spokesman for my company. Maybe I can pull some strings.)
If Purpura were able to pull that off, I'd bow down to him. Cabrera is a freaking stud. He's one player that you'd have to be willing to give up many prospects for. He's still very young, a winner, and possibly the most underrated player in the game.
MadMax
10-10-2006, 03:30 PM
Yeah, I don't want Carlos Lee if he won't settle for something around $11 million/year. If you have to pay that guy $15 million/year,you're way overpaying. I'd rather see them go a different direction if that's the case.
David Dalati said yesterday that Soriano was target #1 for the Astros in the offseason. This wasn't reported as his opinion...he was reporting what he had heard.
As for A-Rod...that guy is a third-baseman, now.
NJRocket
10-10-2006, 04:14 PM
Only guy worth the 15 million (if he even is) would be Soriano....this guy would be a homerun (no pun intended) for us.
rhino17
10-10-2006, 04:16 PM
Yeah, I don't want Carlos Lee if he won't settle for something around $11 million/year. If you have to pay that guy $15 million/year,you're way overpaying. I'd rather see them go a different direction if that's the case.
David Dalati said yesterday that Soriano was target #1 for the Astros in the offseason. This wasn't reported as his opinion...he was reporting what he had heard.
As for A-Rod...that guy is a third-baseman, now.
I would personally rather have Soriano than Lee as well. Soriano gives you more speed with the same bat. But if he is not available, I would be willing to overpay for Lee because they desperatly need a legit clean up hitter. They cannot afford to not want to spend money and miss out on someone like Lee or Soriano. I dont want them ending up with a late signing of a guy like Preston Wilson like they did this year. It is not worth signing a cheap guy if he wont give you production. If you want production, you must spend money.
MadMax
10-10-2006, 04:39 PM
I would personally rather have Soriano than Lee as well. Soriano gives you more speed with the same bat. But if he is not available, I would be willing to overpay for Lee because they desperatly need a legit clean up hitter. They cannot afford to not want to spend money and miss out on someone like Lee or Soriano. I dont want them ending up with a late signing of a guy like Preston Wilson like they did this year. It is not worth signing a cheap guy if he wont give you production. If you want production, you must spend money.
Lee scares me because of his body size. He seems like he's an injury waiting to happen. Honestly, I would be happy with him at the right price. Otherwise, I think we may end up being loaded down with a contract that's too much to pay to begin with.
It is not worth signing a cheap guy if he wont give you production. If you want production, you must spend money.
Jeez... u sounding like they don't invest money in anybody. If you guys want to take Lance Berkman's 44 HR's and $15 million dollar a year contract for granted, fine... but not every team has a superstar that is as productive as him.
Also, if the club goes with Luke Scott (who makes even less than Preston Wilson) for the entire year (assuming he doesn't go to a half-season-long slump), the club is probably still playing right now... spending money isn't ever a guarantee.
You have to keep your principles. A part of me feels that Soriano isn't worth $15 million a year, but when you factor in his amazing season, his age, and his speed... he's definitely going to get it from someone (might as well be us). But if they miss out on him I won't have any problems with them not being "desperate" and overpaying for a guy like Carlos Lee... I don't think he's the type of player you ever overpay for.
sammy
10-10-2006, 06:07 PM
Jeez... u sounding like they don't invest money in anybody. If you guys want to take Lance Berkman's 44 HR's and $15 million dollar a year contract for granted, fine... but not every team has a superstar that is as productive as him.
Also, if the club goes with Luke Scott (who makes even less than Preston Wilson) for the entire year (assuming he doesn't go to a half-season-long slump), the club is probably still playing right now... spending money isn't ever a guarantee.
You have to keep your principles. A part of me feels that Soriano isn't worth $15 million a year, but when you factor in his amazing season, his age, and his speed... he's definitely going to get it from someone (might as well be us). But if they miss out on him I won't have any problems with them not being "desperate" and overpaying for a guy like Carlos Lee... I don't think he's the type of player you ever overpay for.
We have been built around pitching and that should be our primary focus but we also need a bat. A guy that can hit home runs and drive in runs. We would be ok in this department if Ensbergs power didnt fall off. The Mets have the best 1-2 punch (Beltran and Delgado) in the NL and it seems like they will get to the World Series. Soriano's power and speed would be great for the Astros. The guy had 25 more runs that anyone on our team this year. It would be tight seeing Berkman drive in Soriano all the time. I hope our GM can get it done.
A part of me feels that Soriano isn't worth $15 million a year, but when you factor in his amazing season, his age, and his speed... he's definitely going to get it from someone (might as well be us). But if they miss out on him I won't have any problems with them not being "desperate" and overpaying for a guy like Carlos Lee... I don't think he's the type of player you ever overpay for.
IMHO Bosox will 'win' the bidding for one of those two. The Mets the other.
white lightning
10-10-2006, 06:25 PM
Here's another interesting prospect up for bid. All it will take is money.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2619621
Highly regarded pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka was given permission by the Seibu Lions on Tuesday to pursue a career in the major leagues.
Matsuzaka, who has drawn interest from several major league teams including the New York Yankees, finished the 2006 regular season with a career-high 17 wins against five losses.
The 26-year-old right-hander posted a 2.13 earned-run average and 200 strikeouts.
Matsuzaka has long been considered one of the brightest prospects in Japanese professional baseball.
Seibu is expected to use the posting system in which major league teams present bids for Japanese players and the highest bidder wins the negotiating rights. Ichiro Suzuki signed with the Seattle Mariners under the same system.
Matsuzaka is still one year away from becoming a free agent.
In his eight-year career in Japan, Matsuzaka has led the Pacific League in wins three times and in strikeouts four times while winning the ERA title twice and the Sawamura Award, Japan's version of the Cy Young Award, once.
Matsuzaka impressed major league scouts when he helped Japan win the inaugural World Baseball Classic title last March and was named MVP of the tournament.
Here's another interesting prospect up for bid. All it will take is money.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2619621
Highly regarded pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka was given permission by the Seibu Lions on Tuesday to pursue a career in the major leagues.
Matsuzaka, who has drawn interest from several major league teams including the New York Yankees, finished the 2006 regular season with a career-high 17 wins against five losses.
The 26-year-old right-hander posted a 2.13 earned-run average and 200 strikeouts.
Matsuzaka has long been considered one of the brightest prospects in Japanese professional baseball.
Seibu is expected to use the posting system in which major league teams present bids for Japanese players and the highest bidder wins the negotiating rights. Ichiro Suzuki signed with the Seattle Mariners under the same system.
Matsuzaka is still one year away from becoming a free agent.
In his eight-year career in Japan, Matsuzaka has led the Pacific League in wins three times and in strikeouts four times while winning the ERA title twice and the Sawamura Award, Japan's version of the Cy Young Award, once.
Matsuzaka impressed major league scouts when he helped Japan win the inaugural World Baseball Classic title last March and was named MVP of the tournament.
Chan Ho Park was once a dominant pitcher for Korea as well... let this guy be somebody else's potential mistake.
International pitchers, with crazy mechanics, are still a huge risk.
white lightning
10-10-2006, 07:11 PM
Chan Ho Park was once a dominant pitcher for Korea as well... let this guy be somebody else's potential mistake.
International pitchers, with crazy mechanics, are still a huge risk.
I agree that he's a risk, but Park was 21 when he came up with the Dodgers, and didn't have anywhere near the experience that this guy has.
I agree that he's a risk, but Park was 21 when he came up with the Dodgers, and didn't have anywhere near the experience that this guy has.
Its still risky... and there will be teams that aren't already paying for an Oswalt (or the usual Yankees/Red Sox) that will be high bidders for a commodity that is still very much unknown against MLB competition.
I'd rather commit the resources to Pettite/Clemens/veteran pitcher... and a bat.
white lightning
10-10-2006, 07:45 PM
I'd rather commit the resources to Pettite/Clemens/veteran pitcher... and a bat.
So would yu rather have Woody Williams for around $2 mil or Daisuke Matsuzaka for $5 mil (I really have no idea how much he'll make, but if the Yankees are involved it will probably be for more than this. Ichiro's first contract was for 3 years $14 mil.)
Pettite/ Clemens should be at the top of the list, but both of them are still short term solutions.
br0ken_shad0w
10-10-2006, 08:44 PM
So would yu rather have Woody Williams for around $2 mil or Daisuke Matsuzaka for $5 mil (I really have no idea how much he'll make, but if the Yankees are involved it will probably be for more than this. Ichiro's first contract was for 3 years $14 mil.)
Pettite/ Clemens should be at the top of the list, but both of them are still short term solutions.
That was because the Mariners had to pay $13 million just to get him, so they actually payed almost $30 million for Ichiro. Matsuzaka? Expect at least a $10 million/yr contract for him just to have him wear a baseball uniform (and even that's on the low end)
I just don't see the Stros getting into a bidding war for anyone, future all star, panned out star, or AA catcher. If the player doens't have an interestest in playing in Houston other than $$$ i just don't see timmy going the extra mile to bid for a player.
He'll extened offeres to tons of people and say that we are working hard to get good quality players, but once another team ups our offer, negotiations are over.
I really think after Beltran and Bag's last few Timmy is a bit scared to spend money on a guy that he doesn't know. Oswalt, Roger, and Andy are known. Some of these other guys are unknowns.
The past two years have been a history of playing with what we got and if you want to come to houston . . . great! we will accept you with open arms. Otherwise start the farm team.
DaDakota
10-11-2006, 08:53 AM
A-rod?
I would take him...give up Hirsch and Pence and go from there.
DD
MadMax
10-11-2006, 08:55 AM
If the player doens't have an interestest in playing in Houston other than $$$ i just don't see timmy going the extra mile to bid for a player.
.
i don't think there's a GM in baseball that can accomplish bringing in a player who has no interest in playing in that city for that team.
I really think after Beltran and Bag's last few Timmy is a bit scared to spend money on a guy that he doesn't know. Oswalt, Roger, and Andy are known. Some of these other guys are unknowns.
The past two years have been a history of playing with what we got and if you want to come to houston . . . great! we will accept you with open arms. Otherwise start the farm team.
So, basically you suggest they OVERPAY for somebody who has no interest in coming to Houston in the first place... because that is the only way to be a successful gm :rolleyes: (see the Rangers when they bought Alex Rodriguez).
Also, I have no problem with spending big bucks for a person who is a.) a known commodity, who didn't just put up a great year in a FA year, and b.) one who actually likes the enviornment he plays in.
There's no denying that in the FA game, the PLAYER steers the ship... and if they don't really want to come to Houston, and are just using this team as leverage, I'm not going to say its a "failure" that we didn't get that guy.
Lee has said he would like playing here... but if the Yankees, Boston, the Mets, the White Sox, the Cubs, and the Angels/Dodgers (the four biggest baseball cities in the league) come at him with open arms... and Drayton/Tim start hearing less and less about what's going on... there's nothing you can really do in that case except explore trades, or sign veterans.
weslinder
10-11-2006, 09:19 AM
Only guy worth the 15 million (if he even is) would be Soriano....this guy would be a homerun (no pun intended) for us.
I can't figure out what I don't like about Soriano. He's a terrible infielder, but that gripe doesn't apply anymore. I guess my biggest issue is that he apparently is a bad teammate or something. The fact remains that even with great performance and a decent contract, every team that gets him tries to get rid of him immediately. It's purely assumption, but I assume that it means that he's a clubhouse cancer. I'd like to think that the Astros would have a good influence on him, but giving him a superstar quality contract means that I'd bet the house on it. I'm not sure that I would.
I can't figure out what I don't like about Soriano. He's a terrible infielder, but that gripe doesn't apply anymore. I guess my biggest issue is that he apparently is a bad teammate or something. The fact remains that even with great performance and a decent contract, every team that gets him tries to get rid of him immediately. It's purely assumption, but I assume that it means that he's a clubhouse cancer. I'd like to think that the Astros would have a good influence on him, but giving him a superstar quality contract means that I'd bet the house on it. I'm not sure that I would.
Like A-rod, I don't think you can look at the "player" as the main reason why teams are trying to get rid of him...
The Yankees wanted A-Rod, and gave up on Soriano a little too early... but he was one of the only guys who was young, with lots of potential, and wasn't making a lot of money that Texas would want in return.
The Rangers were continuing to have lackluster seasons, and since Soriano was only putting up "good" numbers for them (not the A-rod numbers), he seemed exependable.
The Nats actually want to KEEP Soriano, and build the team around him... hence they didn't trade him at mid-season. They still may have the inside track on him if he really wants to stay there.
There's no denying that in the FA game, the PLAYER steers the ship...
Too often it is the AGENT steering the ship.
Neither Soriano nor Lee are going to be ignored. Bosox and Mets likely to split the signing of the two. Angels and Cubs could well be major contenders for either/both.
Thus, Lidge becomes pivoltal as he is the most marketable player the Astros have whom they might market. Timmy P and his GM D-Mc need to maximize his market value.
Too often it is the AGENT steering the ship.
Neither Soriano nor Lee are going to be ignored. Bosox and Mets likely to split the signing of the two. Angels and Cubs could well be major contenders for either/both.
Thus, Lidge becomes pivoltal as he is the most marketable player the Astros have whom they might market. Timmy P and his GM D-Mc need to maximize his market value.
As much as you want to paint Boras as the devil... he's only doing what the market allows him to do. And, he's still working for the client... if the client doesn't like the team, its the agent's job to know that or else they get fired. And when their other clients get wind of an agent pushing his own agenda without the player's best interests involved, they leave that agent.
$$$ plays a big part... but they're going to get the $$$ eventually... they have to be happy from who they get it.
Lidge is a tradeable asset... but I would not say he is our most tradeable asset. Even last year, coming of a great season, he wasn't our most tradeable asset... Ensberg was.
Teams HAVE to look at the current state of closers in MLB... how most of these guys are being brought up from their own systems, and dominating the late innings for cheap. Wainwright, Papplebon, Lidge, Gagne, K-rod... all guys who weren't neccesarily groomed as closers, but ended up not just getting the job done, but DOMINATING. There are also countless other closers who may not be a big name, but are certainly effective. Why teams continue to spend $10 million plus for closers, or give up valuable commodities in trades, is highly questionable.
That being said, our most tradeable assets are (in order):
1. Pence
2. Patton
3. Hirsh
4. Lidge
5. Ensberg
6. Qualls
7. Albers
8. Ash
That being said, our most tradeable assets are (in order):
1. Pence
2. Patton
3. Hirsh
4. Lidge
5. Ensberg
6. Qualls
7. Albers
8. Ash
What, no Jason Lane? :p
As much as you want to paint Boras as the devil... he's only doing what the market allows him to do. And, he's still working for the client... if the client doesn't like the team, its the agent's job to know that or else they get fired. And when their other clients get wind of an agent pushing his own agenda without the player's best interests involved, they leave that agent.
$$$ plays a big part... but they're going to get the $$$ eventually... they have to be happy from who they get it.
Lidge is a tradeable asset... but I would not say he is our most tradeable asset. Even last year, coming of a great season, he wasn't our most tradeable asset... Ensberg was.
Teams HAVE to look at the current state of closers in MLB... how most of these guys are being brought up from their own systems, and dominating the late innings for cheap. Wainwright, Papplebon, Lidge, Gagne, K-rod... all guys who weren't neccesarily groomed as closers, but ended up not just getting the job done, but DOMINATING. There are also countless other closers who may not be a big name, but are certainly effective. Why teams continue to spend $10 million plus for closers, or give up valuable commodities in trades, is highly questionable.
That being said, our most tradeable assets are (in order):
1. Pence
2. Patton
3. Hirsh
4. Lidge
5. Ensberg
6. Qualls
7. Albers
8. Ash
Where did I mention, or even reference Boros? I merely allowed as to how many FAs empower their agents (compare Damon and Varitek. Damon went for the biggest check as per his agent but Varitek told saidsame Boros that he was to get it worked out with Boston). I think players who cede that decision to their agents are fools. Look at some of the Yankees' signings, guys like Weaver who took the $ and were destined to just not fit in.
Respectfully disagreeing, I believe Lidge is the best asset the Astros might deal. From your list of 8 I have to wonder why if Pence is so valuable to others he can't seem to sniff MMP. Your Top 3 all are kids and certainly might be packagable/marketable.
But Lidge? Put him out there and reel in help. IMHO.
What, no Jason Lane? :p
Right now I'd expect Jason is worth a Penny...Lane.
Jared Novak
10-11-2006, 11:10 AM
I really don't see the Astros making a trade as opposed to signing free agents this offseason. Many people have complained that Purpura has the inability to make a deal, which is true impart because he has a hard time letting go of minor league talent. Purpura believes in building a team through the farm system, and therein lies part of the problem. Purpura falls in love with his prospects and chooses to let them come up and prove themsleves rather than trade them away even if there chances are slim.
You have to be willing to trade unproven (on the major league level) prospects for proven major leaguers. The other problem is that the Astros IMHO promote their minor leaguers too slow. I understand not wanting to shake a young guys confidence, letting him cut his teeth in the minors, but letting them face a little adversity goes along way into building character and seeing what the guys can do when the pressure is on and the situation isn't easy.
When Jason Lane got brought up three years ago, you kept hearing how this guy was a good young hitter and showed promise as he was tearing up the minors. But at 27 years of age (at the time) the guy is no longer a prospect, a guy like Miguel Cabrera who was 19 when he got brought up is a young guy who has lots of promise. Lane is a good measuring stick as far as the Astros not willing to bring up or trade some prospects away. A couple of years ago Lane had good value and you probably could have started a deal with him and throw in some more prospects, now he is the throw in.
This offseason the Astros are probably going to inquire about A-Rod, Dontrelle Willis, Carl Crawford and a couple more proven major leaguers. However, unless Purpura is willing to give up some of his prized prospects the conversation isn't going to get very far. If you want Dontrelle Willis its gonna cost you Pence, Patton and Albers. Is that price too high? The Marlins don't think so, thats what they want young pitching and a good hitting prospect. If we say no, do we truly believe that Pence, Patton and Albers are all-star level players? We know that Dontrelle Willis is all-star caliber, so its going to take some promising, young, cheap talent to acquire him or any proven all-star player.
As much as I'd like to see the Astros be aggressive on the trade front, I just don't see it happening. They'll put offers out to Carlos Lee and Alfonso Soriano. maybe a couple of pitchers in Williams, Zito and Schmidt and lesser free agents. I just hope they don't put all their eggs in one basket and put a more competitive team on the field because despite their miracle comebacks, I don't see the division being as lowly as it was this past season.
I really don't see the Astros making a trade as opposed to signing free agents this offseason. Many people have complained that Purpura has the inability to make a deal, which is true impart because he has a hard time letting go of minor league talent. Purpura believes in building a team through the farm system, and therein lies part of the problem. Purpura falls in love with his prospects and chooses to let them come up and prove themsleves rather than trade them away even if there chances are slim.
Pupurra gave up two pretty good prospects in Talbot and Zobrist for Huff... and by all accounts, that was a deal that nobody in the league was expecting. That trade was pretty significant... he got us one of the best hitters available, and he didn't give up any of our top propsects or everyday players to do it.
The rest of your statements... while some may be true.. are based largely on a ton of assumptions, circumstantiality, and opinions that may be misguided.
First of all, yes... the Astros must build from the farm system. This has been true since the early 90's... with the Venezuelan academy, the top-notch scouting, and the previous reluctancy to re-sign their own FA's (Which led to trades of Larry Anderson, Mike Hampton, Billy Wagner, etc. for prospects).
Most teams, not named the Yankees would be DEAD without their farm system... ask St. Louis where they'd be had Pujols not mysteriously risen from within their minor leagues. Ask the Cubs if they'd be better off had Prior/Wood (their own home-grown pitchers) panned out. Hell, even the Yankees' dynasty was largely because of home-grown Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Rivera, Bernie Williams... not the FA acquistion fiasco they've fallen into the last 5 years.
As for Pupura "falling in love" with his prospects... I've yet to read an article talking about how we didn't get Carl Crawford or Dontrelle Willis because he refused to part ways with Jason Hirsch. Also, isn't it contradictory that you say he loves his prospects... and yet you complain about how the team takes forever to promote them?
Regarding that subject... Jason Lane may have not been promoted earlier on because of the players in front of him... but now that you see what kind of major leaguer he is, can you really blame that as a mistake? Also, the Astros farm system hasn't had a guy like Miguele Cabrerra or Ryan Howard for years... I don't see anybody down there, or who has come up here in the last 5 years, who should/could have been up here earlier.
And, when the Astros DO have a young player who is capable/ready to make a difference, they DO bring him up. Carlos Hernandez was ready at 21, Berkman came up as fast as he could at 24, Oswalt was practically helicoptered in in 2001 after a token start at AAA. They also never hesitated on Tim Redding (probably should have), waited till Lidge was fully healthy, and did a great job of evaluating Qualls fully to make sure he wasn't going to cut it as a starter.
I know its frustrating that the Astros don't bring in the "big name" year after year, and we're getting a little bit of "big-market envy" because of it... but there are few teams who have had as great of a balance of success of building from within, and adding outside free agents, and producing WINS as a result of this strategy, as the Astros have done.
Buck Turgidson
10-11-2006, 11:36 AM
The trades closest to being made prior to and during '06, that ultimately were not - Abreu, Lee, Tejada - centered around major league players, not prospects.
Jared Novak
10-11-2006, 12:25 PM
Pupurra gave up two pretty good prospects in Talbot and Zobrist for Huff... and by all accounts, that was a deal that nobody in the league was expecting. That trade was pretty significant... he got us one of the best hitters available, and he didn't give up any of our top propsects or everyday players to do it.
Zobrist is 25 and has Everett in front of him. By most accounts (scouting sites) Zobrist had the stick but lacked the range to unseat Everett. Talbot was IMHO the better player in the deal because he was a good young right arm. That being said bith players weren't huge losses to the minor league system. Acquiring Huff didn't merit having to give up better prospects.
The rest of your statements... while some may be true.. are based largely on a ton of assumptions, circumstantiality, and opinions that may be misguided.
Thats why this is a fan forum, which allows anyone the right to air their opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. :rolleyes:
First of all, yes... the Astros must build from the farm system. This has been true since the early 90's... with the Venezuelan academy, the top-notch scouting, and the previous reluctancy to re-sign their own FA's (Which led to trades of Larry Anderson, Mike Hampton, Billy Wagner, etc. for prospects).
Most teams, not named the Yankees would be DEAD without their farm system... ask St. Louis where they'd be had Pujols not mysteriously risen from within their minor leagues. Ask the Cubs if they'd be better off had Prior/Wood (their own home-grown pitchers) panned out. Hell, even the Yankees' dynasty was largely because of home-grown Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Rivera, Bernie Williams... not the FA acquistion fiasco they've fallen into the last 5 years.
Where did I say that building through the farm system was wrong? The Astros have had great success building within. My opinion is that they hesitate when it comes to trading prospects for proven major-league talent. I don't care how promising a player is in the minors it doesn't always translate to major league success. If that were the case Rick Ankiel would be the second coming of Sandy Koufax, but he didn't pan out. And when is the last time a player came out of the Venezuelan academy? Last good one I remember was Hernandez.
As for Pupura "falling in love" with his prospects... I've yet to read an article talking about how we didn't get Carl Crawford or Dontrelle Willis because he refused to part ways with Jason Hirsch. Also, isn't it contradictory that you say he loves his prospects... and yet you complain about how the team takes forever to promote them?
Read the paper (as hard as it is to read the chronicle) watch the news, listen to the radio. Purpura is a big minor league guy who loves to build from within, prior to being GM, he was assistant GM and director of minor league personnel. No there is no contradictory statement there, he coddles his propspects and doesn't want to bring them up too early for fear that they'll lose confidence. Once again I guess that was that misguided opinion sneaking in, I'll be sure to email you all my posts about the Astros to make sure I get all the facts straight. Click here (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contradiction) to help get what it means.
Regarding that subject... Jason Lane may have not been promoted earlier on because of the players in front of him... but now that you see what kind of major leaguer he is, can you really blame that as a mistake? Also, the Astros farm system hasn't had a guy like Miguele Cabrerra or Ryan Howard for years... I don't see anybody down there, or who has come up here in the last 5 years, who should/could have been up here earlier.
Lane wasn't promoted due to the line being long in front of him. However, had he shown enough promise he would have unseated the people in front of him. I don't say that keeping him was a mistake, be he is a good indication of why you need to know whether a guy is worth keeping or trading away early. Waiting until he is 27 to bring him to majors is ridiculous, and then giving him more time when he gets to the show. The Astros have had infinite patience with this guy and very few people in the majors would get as many chances as he's gotten. There have been no Cabreras or Howards and I think you mistook why I mentioned Cabrera. Either way, explain to me why Pence hasn't been on the major league roster? Why does Jason Lane deserve to get chances over and over again and a good young hitter like Pence isn't given a single chance to come up and try to take the job? The same could have been said for Hirsch, who probably only got promoted and given a chance because of public pressure.
And, when the Astros DO have a young player who is capable/ready to make a difference, they DO bring him up. Carlos Hernandez was ready at 21, Berkman came up as fast as he could at 24, Oswalt was practically helicoptered in in 2001 after a token start at AAA. They also never hesitated on Tim Redding (probably should have), waited till Lidge was fully healthy, and did a great job of evaluating Qualls fully to make sure he wasn't going to cut it as a starter.
Besides Redding, they were right on every other player who came up "faster" than the norm. Redding was brought up because they hit on Oswalt and Miller, but found out the third time wasn't the charm with Redding. If the Astros do not sign a free agent pitcher this offseason, they'll toy with the idea of putting Qualls in the rotation.
I know its frustrating that the Astros don't bring in the "big name" year after year, and we're getting a little bit of "big-market envy" because of it... but there are few teams who have had as great of a balance of success of building from within, and adding outside free agents, and producing WINS as a result of this strategy, as the Astros have done.
I don't expect this team to bring in big name year after year. When they signed Kent I was pleasantly surprised. I knew Pettitte was coming and saw Roger in tow. So they've brought in big names before. Don't know if you've realized it or not but we broke $100 million in payroll, that looks like big market to me. McLane may cry all he wants about losing money and being fiscally responsible, but he wouldn't keep the team if he losing so much money. We're not the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs or Angels, but that doesn't mean we can't try to compete when trying to sign free agents or trading for better talent. The Astros suffered this year because of a lack of moves last offseason, and I as a fan do not want to see it happen again.
Major
10-11-2006, 12:47 PM
[QUOTE=Jared NovakPurpura is a big minor league guy who loves to build from within, prior to being GM, he was assistant GM and director of minor league personnel. No there is no contradictory statement there, he coddles his propspects and doesn't want to bring them up too early for fear that they'll lose confidence.[/QUOTE]
Who exactly has Purpura coddled and brought up too slowly?
From what I can tell, Willy T skipped AAA, Burke was brought up even though he had no position to play. We brought up an army of young pitchers this year, many of whom weren't ready for the majors. Scott is the only one you could even argue as being brought up too slowly, but he was also brought up way too quickly at the beginning of last season.
weslinder
10-11-2006, 01:23 PM
Like A-rod, I don't think you can look at the "player" as the main reason why teams are trying to get rid of him...
I don't necessarily disagree with you. I have little evidence beyond circumstantial that says that Soriano is a cancer. But even the Nats talked about trading him. The only concrete thing I have against him was the stink he made about playing outfield. But signing him definitely doesn't give me the warm fuzzies. Given an even choice between him and Carlos Lee, I'd take Carlos Lee in a risk-minimization move.
I can't figure out what I don't like about Soriano.
Maybe its the fact that he strikes out at a Jason Lane-like pace. I'd take Carlos Lee and his 100 less strikeouts over Soriano.
First of all, ease up on the emotions... I apoligize if you're upset by my comments.
Acquiring Huff didn't merit having to give up better prospects.
But, we DID give up prospects. Your argument is that Pupura loves them too much, and doesn't want to give them up. Now you're saying that in this case, it doesn't matter because the prospects we gave up were either not that good, or not going to play for us? IMO, that is when you DO try to trade prospects... are you arguing that he doesn't give up his top prospects? If that's the case, I'm glad he's the GM... I don't want my GM giving up every top prospect the orgnaization has every year.
So in the end, the prospects were just alright, not great... and we used them to acqurie an above average major league hitter... what else do you want them to do with the minor league system?
Thats why this is a fan forum, which allows anyone the right to air their opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. :rolleyes:
Again, sorry if I stirred up some emotions... Its not my preference to get into "heated" confrontations.
Where did I say that building through the farm system was wrong? The Astros have had great success building within. My opinion is that they hesitate when it comes to trading prospects for proven major-league talent.
Didn't hesitate on trading for Huff. Didn't hesitate on trading Buck for Beltran. Didn't hesitate on trading for Wheeler. Didn't hesitate trading for Randy Johnson.
If you're arguing that they don't get enough "top-flight" talent in return, I will point out that you have to have top flight prospects to do that... and if you do have those prospects, you better be getting a bonafied all-star in return becuase there's nothing worse than looking at team x giving up future HOFer for a middle releif pitcher (or wondering how good this team would have looked with Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen for all these years).
That being said, Pence/Patton/Hirsh are good prospects... but none of them are baseball america top-25 prospects that teams who are selling off all-stars look to acquire.
I don't care how promising a player is in the minors it doesn't always translate to major league success. If that were the case Rick Ankiel would be the second coming of Sandy Koufax, but he didn't pan out. And when is the last time a player came out of the Venezuelan academy? Last good one I remember was Hernandez.
Sounds like you're bashing the whole "minor league system" concept here... by saying its essentially a crap-shoot. And yes, the minor league's don't predict mental fallouts or the need for tommy john surgery, which de-railed Ankiel's career. But, as a 21 year old, the guy was DOMINANT.
As for the Venezuelan Academy... that produced Johan Santana, Bobby Abreu, Richard Hidalgo, Freddy Garcia, and Carlos Hernandez... MLB started cutting down on the amount of resources teams can commit to their own "private" developments like this. It hurt the Astros, who had a mini-monopoly on that market... now they have to compete like everybody else.
Read the paper (as hard as it is to read the chronicle) watch the news, listen to the radio. Purpura is a big minor league guy who loves to build from within, prior to being GM, he was assistant GM and director of minor league personnel. No there is no contradictory statement there, he coddles his propspects and doesn't want to bring them up too early for fear that they'll lose confidence.
Even though I might have missed those articles about "Tim coddling players for fear of said player losing confidence," I never denied that Tim is a big minor league guy. He was basically the main architect in a system that brought us Oswalt, Lidge, Qualls, and Ensberg (and even Berkman, even though he was a no-brainer)... all guys who have been a big part of this team's success.
I wanted to know where were the articles that said we missed out on a certain player because we refused to trade our prospects. They do write those... we missed out on Clemens because of Elarton, and we missed out on several deadline deals because Daryle Ward was "untouchable."
If we're still doing that now, I'd like to know... because NONE of our current minor league prospects should be considered untouchable. I just haven't seen any hard evidence of that.
why it takes so long for Lane, Pence, Hirsh, etc. to get promoted
On this issue, I have to defer the dozens of scouts, minor league coaches, minor league managers, and front office guys that are employed and paid by the Houston Astros. If there's not a player in front of them, why are they still in the minors?
Well, maybe they just know more than you, me, or the average bbs poster about when a player can be considered ready for the big leagues. Hirsh certainily looked dominant at AAA... but he didn't once he got up here. Maybe they knew something about that. Maybe Pence's very flawwed swing is just too unsightly for the Astros to take a chance.
Honestly, I won't say that all teams are right about every guy... but you said it yourself, the Astros seem to be right about every guy they do promote early. They are wrong on that as well sometimes... they were wrong with Luke Scott last year, and Willy Taveras looks like he may be able to use some seasoning.
If the Astros do not sign a free agent pitcher this offseason, they'll toy with the idea of putting Qualls in the rotation.
Where'd you hear that? Why would you think Qualls (who was mediocre in the minors as a starter) would have any more success than Jason Hirsh or Matt Albers? Not to mention that he's still a valuable commodity in the bullpen.
I don't expect this team to bring in big name year after year. When they signed Kent I was pleasantly surprised. I knew Pettitte was coming and saw Roger in tow. So they've brought in big names before. Don't know if you've realized it or not but we broke $100 million in payroll, that looks like big market to me.[/quote]
The Astros spend money when its justified. They don't spend money blindly like some other teams do. The payroll was what it was this year largely because of Clemens.
Their name will be in the mix for Soriano, Lee, Willis, and all the other big names out there. I'd say there's a 30% chance they end up with one of them, and that's being a little optimistic.
I'd like them to improve over last year as well... I'd like them to compensate for the holes in the lineup (Willy, Everett, Ausmus) with proven bats, as well as compensate for the pitching that needs Pettite/Clemens or equivalents to be somewhat successful.
I will, however, be patient... this team is being built around Oswalt and Berkman two guys in their prime, who aren't going anywhere. They should try to be in the position to be flexible year-in, year-out so that they're not locked down with some albatross contracts associated with players who arent' worth it.
Thats why this is a fan forum, which allows anyone the right to air their opinion, no matter how misguided it may be. :rolleyes:
Where did he say you *couldn't* post your misguided drivel? You can post it, he can call it misguided, and I can tell you that it's mindless drivel. It's all within our rights on this fan forum. So may I suggest, although you certainly have every right to, that you stop the gratuitous whining.
The Astros spend money when its justified. They don't spend money blindly like some other teams do. The payroll was what it was this year largely because of Clemens.
Their name will be in the mix for Soriano, Lee, Willis, and all the other big names out there. I'd say there's a 30% chance they end up with one of them, and that's being a little optimistic.
I'd like them to improve over last year as well... I'd like them to compensate for the holes in the lineup (Willy, Everett, Ausmus) with proven bats, as well as compensate for the pitching that needs Pettite/Clemens or equivalents to be somewhat successful.
Bags was the driving force in the payroll with Clemens.
Yes, the 'stros will be in the mix, but 30% positive does appear to be optimistic.
They must patch the line up holes as well as those in the starting rotation.
As every year, or so it seems, the Astros have a bunch of nice players. They need a couple of killers. Clemens is a killer but if he returns (here or Boston, as talk seems to be implying that is where he would return for one last stand) it is likely to be another 1/2 season go.
Bigg will be back and he needs to start well enough to get 3,000 by 4th of July so that he can finally be eased out and into his well earned rocker.
Can they rely on a bounce back by Ensberg?
Can they rely on a continuation by Luke?
Can they rely on a 140+ games of Ausmus?
Can they expect any of the young arms to produce in the rotation?
Everett is value -- but not without enough punch in the line up to protect him.
Long term big $$$ pitcher signings scare me as they historically do not pan out any where near the duration of the contract.
I anticipate St Louis will be strong again/still (their slide was not prologue IMO).
I keep hearing the Cubbies will load up.
Cincy is less likely to contend in the Central.
The Astros must be proactive to compete in '07.
MadMax
10-11-2006, 02:25 PM
I anticipate St Louis will be strong again/still (their slide was not prologue IMO).
.
i disagree. i think it is prologue. after 162 games, that's what you are. they were a pretty mediocre team. they have zero starting pitching past carpenter. not a lot of good arms available in free agency. edmonds is getting older and it shows. i think they're sliding. they need renovation to be where they've been.
Buck Turgidson
10-11-2006, 02:33 PM
i disagree. i think it is prologue. after 162 games, that's what you are. they were a pretty mediocre team. they have zero starting pitching past carpenter. not a lot of good arms available in free agency. edmonds is getting older and it shows. i think they're sliding. they need renovation to be where they've been.
Suppan gone?
Rolen healthy?
Isringhausen healthy?
Duncan for real?
Marquis gone?
Wainwright in the rotation?
Mulder healthy?
Edmonds done?
Any help on the farm?
They have as many, if not more, major questions entering the offseason as the Astros do.
Cards are an organization and team I pencil in annually to reach October. Pujols and Rolen and LaRussa are good starting points. Yes, they have ? ? ?'s but I have (regrettable) confidence they'll find answers. They always seem to.
Cubs always seem strong April 1. They usually become bearish too soon as they swoon almost every year.
MadMax
10-11-2006, 02:53 PM
Cards are an organization and team I pencil in annually to reach October. Pujols and Rolen and LaRussa are good starting points. Yes, they have ? ? ?'s but I have (regrettable) confidence they'll find answers. They always seem to.
Cubs always seem strong April 1. They usually become bearish too soon as they swoon almost every year.
how long has it been since the Cards have had this many questions going into an offseason?
good organziation...but that doesn't guarantee anything.
Groogrux
10-11-2006, 02:54 PM
how long has it been since the Cards have had this many questions going into an offseason?
good organziation...but that doesn't guarantee anything.
Luckily, they have the best fans in the world.
MadMax
10-11-2006, 02:55 PM
Luckily, they have the best fans in the world.
and Captain America aka Joe Buck
Cards are an organization and team I pencil in annually to reach October. Pujols and Rolen and LaRussa are good starting points. Yes, they have ? ? ?'s but I have (regrettable) confidence they'll find answers. They always seem to.
The Cards have had TWO "second chances" when it seemed like their day was done.
As 2001 hit, and McGwire seemed to be winding down, and the Cards best years behind them.... Albert Pujols showed up from NOWHERE.
They miss the playoffs in 2003.
As 2004 came about, and Matt Morris was in decline, Chris Carpenter suddenly becamse a cy young pitcher out of NOWHERE.
This year, they should have missed the playoffs... but lucked out to be in a division with even worse teams. They're going to have to improve in a lot of places... watch for Wainright to go into the rotation and become a dominant pitcher.
Buck Turgidson
10-11-2006, 03:31 PM
Luckily, they have the best fans in the world.
The same self-proclaimed "Best Fans in Baseball" who want to run everybody - LaRussa, Jocketty, & Rolen are at the top of the list - not named Pujols or Carpenter out of town yesterday.
Jared Novak
10-11-2006, 06:36 PM
Where did he say you *couldn't* post your misguided drivel? You can post it, he can call it misguided, and I can tell you that it's mindless drivel. It's all within our rights on this fan forum. So may I suggest, although you certainly have every right to, that you stop the gratuitous whining.
There is no whining at all. Nick made his opinion about what I said, i simply let him know that his opinion wasn't the end all be all, but thats the problem too many times on the bbs people think that their opinion is the only right one. I simply pointed out that anyone at anytime can post whatever they wanted, even $hit-stirrers like yourself who jumps in and posts his opinion. Don't mistake the obvious for whining.
Jared Novak
10-11-2006, 07:13 PM
First of all, ease up on the emotions... I apoligize if you're upset by my comments.
No emotions friend, I always get fired up when I talk Astros baseball.
But, we DID give up prospects. Your argument is that Pupura loves them too much, and doesn't want to give them up. Now you're saying that in this case, it doesn't matter because the prospects we gave up were either not that good, or not going to play for us? IMO, that is when you DO try to trade prospects... are you arguing that he doesn't give up his top prospects? If that's the case, I'm glad he's the GM... I don't want my GM giving up every top prospect the orgnaization has every year.
Semantics. Purpura has that tendency as did Hunsicker to hold on to prospects too long, and IMO I think their coddled.
So in the end, the prospects were just alright, not great... and we used them to acqurie an above average major league hitter... what else do you want them to do with the minor league system?
Your minor league system is your lifeblood when building your team, but that doesn't mean holding on to every single one. If you're truly looking to make a run now, then you have to be willing to part with even your top flight prospects to acquire talent to help you win now, not later.
Again, sorry if I stirred up some emotions... Its not my preference to get into "heated" confrontations.
No emotions here.
Didn't hesitate on trading for Huff. Didn't hesitate on trading Buck for Beltran. Didn't hesitate on trading for Wheeler. Didn't hesitate trading for Randy Johnson.
How many deals had Purpura made before the Huff trade? The Astros needed a stick in the worst way and got one, desperate times call for desperate measures. Wheeler was acquired because another arm was needed in the bullpen. Buck and Dotel for Beltran... need I say more, that was a steal. Johnson was for the stretch run and a good trade even if it was just a rental.
If you're arguing that they don't get enough "top-flight" talent in return, I will point out that you have to have top flight prospects to do that... and if you do have those prospects, you better be getting a bonafied all-star in return becuase there's nothing worse than looking at team x giving up future HOFer for a middle releif pitcher (or wondering how good this team would have looked with Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen for all these years).
Where did I say not acquiring "top-flight" talent? The Red Sox look foolish now that they traded a 3B named Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen, but at the time they were trying to win and at that point he showed little power. Just like we look foolish for letting Johan Santana get away in the Rule V draft. When you make a trade you can't view it in hindsight
That being said, Pence/Patton/Hirsh are good prospects... but none of them are baseball america top-25 prospects that teams who are selling off all-stars look to acquire.
So now Baseball America dictates who major league teams look at in trades? I'm sure when teams call asking about players on the roster or in the minor league they are sure to see where BA ranks the prospect.
Sounds like you're bashing the whole "minor league system" concept here... by saying its essentially a crap-shoot. And yes, the minor league's don't predict mental fallouts or the need for tommy john surgery, which de-railed Ankiel's career. But, as a 21 year old, the guy was DOMINANT.
Ankiel was lights out in the minors, got to the majors and fell apart mentally. You started listing guys like Wood and Prior who haven't paned out yet and to ask the Cubs where they'd be if they had well ditto for the Redbirds and Ankiel.
As for the Venezuelan Academy... that produced Johan Santana, Bobby Abreu, Richard Hidalgo, Freddy Garcia, and Carlos Hernandez... MLB started cutting down on the amount of resources teams can commit to their own "private" developments like this. It hurt the Astros, who had a mini-monopoly on that market... now they have to compete like everybody else.
Thats where money is the name of the game. Now is the time scouting comes in and chooses which players the Astros need to try and sign.
Even though I might have missed those articles about "Tim coddling players for fear of said player losing confidence," I never denied that Tim is a big minor league guy. He was basically the main architect in a system that brought us Oswalt, Lidge, Qualls, and Ensberg (and even Berkman, even though he was a no-brainer)... all guys who have been a big part of this team's success.
I wanted to know where were the articles that said we missed out on a certain player because we refused to trade our prospects. They do write those... we missed out on Clemens because of Elarton, and we missed out on several deadline deals because Daryle Ward was "untouchable."
You answered yourself on that one. Read the newspaper watch the news and you'll hear Purpura make the statement that the Astros aren't interested in mortgaging their future (prospects) for players. Don't act like its never been said.
If we're still doing that now, I'd like to know... because NONE of our current minor league prospects should be considered untouchable. I just haven't seen any hard evidence of that.
Just becasue you think no one is untouchable doesn't mean the team feels that way.
On this issue, I have to defer the dozens of scouts, minor league coaches, minor league managers, and front office guys that are employed and paid by the Houston Astros. If there's not a player in front of them, why are they still in the minors?
Well, maybe they just know more than you, me, or the average bbs poster about when a player can be considered ready for the big leagues. Hirsh certainily looked dominant at AAA... but he didn't once he got up here. Maybe they knew something about that. Maybe Pence's very flawwed swing is just too unsightly for the Astros to take a chance.
Apparently its you who knows more than I do about baseball period since my opinions are misguided and circumstantial.
Honestly, I won't say that all teams are right about every guy... but you said it yourself, the Astros seem to be right about every guy they do promote early. They are wrong on that as well sometimes... they were wrong with Luke Scott last year, and Willy Taveras looks like he may be able to use some seasoning.
Where'd you hear that? Why would you think Qualls (who was mediocre in the minors as a starter) would have any more success than Jason Hirsh or Matt Albers? Not to mention that he's still a valuable commodity in the bullpen.
Something I heard thrown around amongst friends that have ties to the team. Could be drivel, could be true.
The Astros spend money when its justified. They don't spend money blindly like some other teams do. The payroll was what it was this year largely because of Clemens.
The payroll was highly inflated due to Clemens (12 million), Bagwell (17 million) and Pettitte (16 million), and I do believe Kent was due one of his payments this year.
Their name will be in the mix for Soriano, Lee, Willis, and all the other big names out there. I'd say there's a 30% chance they end up with one of them, and that's being a little optimistic.
Sounds like an arbitrary number thrown out there, but I won't call it "misguided".
I'd like them to improve over last year as well... I'd like them to compensate for the holes in the lineup (Willy, Everett, Ausmus) with proven bats, as well as compensate for the pitching that needs Pettite/Clemens or equivalents to be somewhat successful.
I will, however, be patient... this team is being built around Oswalt and Berkman two guys in their prime, who aren't going anywhere. They should try to be in the position to be flexible year-in, year-out so that they're not locked down with some albatross contracts associated with players who arent' worth it.
Sounds like a recipe for winning to me.
good organziation...but that doesn't guarantee anything.
No it doesn't. But it's a great place to start.
There is no whining at all. Nick made his opinion about what I said, i simply let him know that his opinion wasn't the end all be all,
No, you said: Thats why this is a fan forum, which allows anyone the right to air their opinion, no matter how misguided it may be.
In other words, "Waaaaa! Waaaaaa! I can post whatever I want you meanie!! Waaaaaaaaaa!"
but thats the problem too many times on the bbs people think that their opinion is the only right one.
So are you willing to admit that you're wrong (because you are)? Then why do you expect it of someone else?
I simply pointed out that anyone at anytime can post whatever they wanted, even $hit-stirrers like yourself who jumps in and posts his opinion. Don't mistake the obvious for whining.
Thanks for calling me names, but you were whining, whether you want to admit or not. It is you who has mistaken whining for the obvious. Nick accurately called your opinion misguided. You responded with the whine above. I responded with the obvious:
You can post it, he can call it misguided, and I can tell you that it's mindless drivel. It's all within our rights on this fan forum. So may I suggest, although you certainly have every right to, that you stop the gratuitous whining.
In other words, don't take this so seriously. I'm just clowning around, and you're just whining.
Jugdish
10-11-2006, 10:58 PM
http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/
God, I hope they do more Justice critiques.
http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/
God, I hope they do more Justice critiques.
It bears repeating again: Justice is an idiot.
On 610 this morning, Lance and John were asking Justice about his columns... John said he would have no problem trading for A-rod.
Justice continued his assumtion-filled drivel about how detrimental A-rod would be to a clubhouse.
John then said Jeff Kent was known to be a bad clubhouse influence before he arrived.
Justice then sung Kent's praises from high heavens... said that "when nobody was looking", he used to help the young kids out, and get mad after every at bat he didn't come thru on (apparently he feels A-rod is incapable of emotion, and is a lesser human being than Jeff Kent).
John and Lance were like "A-rod a worse person than Jeff Kent? Really?"
Justice, now realizing that he may have made some generalized assumptions there that may or may not have been true, then goes to the other reason why you shouldn't get A-rod... "You would have to give up Roy Oswalt, Chad Qualls, and Brad Lidge... at least."
John and Lance, wondering what Justice has been smoking this morning, are like "Really? What about a 3-way deal with the Marlins... you give them Pence and Patton, and Dontrelle goes to NY."
Justice, suddenly with a optimistic tone in his voice... like he had never heard of a possible 3-way deal before... was like, "really? Pence/Patton?... (mulls it over, knows it might work)... well, the bottom line is that nobody in the Rangers clubhouse wanted to be friends with A-rod after he left." (I don't know if Richard could name 3 guys in the Rangers clubhouse, let alone talk to them in the last week to get their sentiments on A-rod).
All in all, not bad for our over-hyped sportswriter, and the "cough" #1 morning crew in Houston sportsradio... basically, an "in-depth" discussion with conclusions that a couple of 13 year olds could have come up with.
I don't know if Richard could name 3 guys in the Rangers clubhouse
Are you kidding? He's the "best" name-dropper in recent memory.
All in all, not bad for our over-hyped sportswriter, and the "cough" #1 morning crew in Houston sportsradio... basically, an "in-depth" discussion with conclusions that a couple of 13 year olds could have come up with.
Which is precisely my beef with the Chronicle. These guys have both a college education in journalism and access to the game and the people of the game (hence the name-dropping) far beyond what the normal guy has. For this reason, I expect FAR MORE from these guys than the same whiny subjective bullcrap I can get at the water cooler at work or droning on AM610 or 790.
mokulen
10-12-2006, 12:26 AM
Were you listening when Lance Berkman came on later in the morning?
So basically he wants the Astros to focus on pitching (and resign Andy for instance), because they can bring all the bats they want and it won't mean squat if they don't get pitching.
When asked about A-Rod, what he thought of him or would he mind if the Astros traded for him, he said Lamb was the only one he knew who'd played with him and Lamb only had good things to say about him - or, er, no negative things to say about him. :confused: My memory is crap and I've botched that but basically I got the feeling he wouldn't mind having him.
On 610 this morning, Lance and John were asking Justice about his columns... John said he would have no problem trading for A-rod.
Justice continued his assumtion-filled drivel about how detrimental A-rod would be to a clubhouse.
jopatmc
10-12-2006, 12:45 AM
The smart money goes for Dontrelle. He's gonna make around $7 million next year. Where are we going to get a pitcher who does what he does from the left side for that kind of money? If he is on the market, we've got to move whatever we have to move to get him.
Then you use FA dollars on Soriano or Lee. Sign Woody Williams for a couple mill. And then you ask Pettitte back for a reasonable salary. Give him the Clemens option of staying home with the kids on his off days, etc. etc. And see if you can get him signed for about $10 mill. You get Lee for $11 mill. Dontrelle for $7 and Woody for $2. That's pretty good.
Roy O
Dontrelle
Woody
Pettitte (righty lefty righty lefty)
Sampson (whoever)
with Wheeler in the pen. If we have to move Lidge to get Dontrelle, I'm okay with Wheeler.
Dontrelle will probably cost us Hirsch. I'm okay with that too. Dontrelle is 24 years old and a big time stud. He would bring out the African-American fan base just like Yao brings out the CHinese fan base. Plus Dontrelle has plenty of "it". Everybody likes to watch him pitch. Very entertaining and very good. What I'm trying to say is he would be a hit at the ticket booth, so Drayton wouldn't have to worry about his long term contract becuase he brings the fans in a similar way to Roger.
Then you've got a lineup of:
Willy
Burke
Berkman
Lee
Ensberg/Huff (if Ensberg traded)
Scott
Ausmus
Everett
with Biggio spelling an outfielder and an infielder about 4 days a week. And wouldn't it be nice if that J.R. House could actually get some ABs and spell Ausmus once or twice a week???
Aceshigh7
10-12-2006, 12:52 AM
If we got Dontrelle he would instantly be the 3rd best hitter on this team.
So basically he wants the Astros to focus on pitching (and resign Andy for instance), because they can bring all the bats they want and it won't mean squat if they don't get pitching.
He couldn't be 100% more right. If any of the kids had shown a bit of promise this year, the team would be in a much better shape (ie - would only really have to re-sign Pettite to shore up the rotation).
But, since Hirsh/Albers/Buchholz are still huge question marks for next year, the team not only has to re-sign Pettite... but go after another veteran pitcher who has a limited injury history, and doesn't give up the long ball.
Woody's name is being dropped a ton... but he isn't really all that good anymore (don't buy into his era in petco). Granted, I'd take him if nobody else was available... but if you're going to be interested in him, you might as well take a look at Jeff Suppan, Randy Wolf, Vincente Padilla, Ted Lilly, Miguel Batista, and Jamey Wright.
All in all, not bad for our over-hyped sportswriter, and the "cough" #1 morning crew in Houston sportsradio... basically, an "in-depth" discussion with conclusions that a couple of 13 year olds could have come up with.
That morning show is unlistentoable IMHO because of their 13 year old, LZ. JG, when without the bratty, silly, immature partner of his, can actually deliver some decent stuff.
Woody's name is being dropped a ton... but he isn't really all that good anymore (don't buy into his era in petco). Granted, I'd take him if nobody else was available... but if you're going to be interested in him, you might as well take a look at Jeff Suppan, Randy Wolf, Vincente Padilla, Ted Lilly, Miguel Batista, and Jamey Wright.
Ted Lilly in MMP? Oh, thay'd have to sell body armor in the Crawford's. Jamey or Jaret Wright? If Jaret (and I know you meant Jamey, but...I wanted to say this:) he is, IMO, a reincarnation of, a mind and body double of Tim Redding.
MadMax
10-12-2006, 08:24 AM
That morning show is unlistentoable IMHO because of their 13 year old, LZ. JG, when without the bratty, silly, immature partner of his, can actually deliver some decent stuff.
yesterday's segment with Lance Berkman was incredible radio.
(I don't know if Richard could name 3 guys in the Rangers clubhouse, let alone talk to them in the last week to get their sentiments on A-rod).
justice's source, i would be willing to bet, is gerry fraley, the rangers' beat writer in dallas who has a hard-on for ripping arod. i'd push my salary and bonus into the middle of the table for a full year. fraley hasn't said anything positive about a dallas sports team in roughly 67 years. not surprisingly, he was my favorite writer. and he HATES arod.
statistically, arod is bulletproof. this nonsense of him not being clutch is bordering on insane. if i hadn't been in dallas during his tenure there, i'd be driving the arod bandwagon - next stop: world series.
but i was there and arod worries me. still no way to explain it.
Groogrux
10-12-2006, 08:41 AM
justice's source, i would be willing to bet, is gerry fraley, the rangers' beat writer in dallas who has a hard-on for ripping arod. i'd push my salary and bonus into the middle of the table for a full year. fraley hasn't said anything positive about a dallas sports team in roughly 67 years. not surprisingly, he was my favorite writer. and he HATES arod.
Sounds objective.
yesterday's segment with Lance Berkman was incredible radio.
as oppossed to their frequent acredible radio?
but i was there and arod worries me. still no way to explain it.
Well, I don't think it matters anymore... NY is probably not going to trade him, and A-rod doesn't want to be traded (otherwise, that's an admission of "failure"... which hurts his image).
Plus, I think Yankees fans are finally starting to realize how its insanely STUPID to think that they're entitled to win the World Series every year because of a $200 million dollar payroll. They understand that winning as many games as they do in the regular season is damn hard... not many teams can guarnatee that sort of success.
Also, they understand that PITCHING is the name of the game in the post-season, thus who cares if they have A-rod, or don't have A-rod, or A-rod is batting 8th... if Jaret Weaver is your starter in an elimination game, you have bigger problems than your lineup.
If I were the Yankees, I'd forget about Zito and go harder after Jason Schmidt. Zito has gotten roughed up whenver he faced the AL East (albeit, a lot of that was by the Yankees)... and I forsee another big-ticket flop if he went to the big apple.
Look for them to be firmly in the Dontrelle sweepstakes as well... Phillip Hughes is the Yankees #1 prospect (solid righty pitcher with a plus arm), and depending on what else the Marlins want, that would be a great starting point.
Well, I don't think it matters anymore... NY is probably not going to trade him, and A-rod doesn't want to be traded (otherwise, that's an admission of "failure"... which hurts his image).
I would (almost) put $$$ on the fact that A-Rod will open the '07 season in a different uni, probably NL. To assuage his 'failure' he'll force a trade to LA, Cubs or similar IMO. The Houstons of the world may be better fits but lacking the requisite panache.
Astroholic
10-12-2006, 03:06 PM
A-Rod does have many car dealerships in Houston doesn't he?
MONON
10-12-2006, 06:56 PM
If we got Dontrelle he would instantly be the 3rd best hitter on this team.
Man! The truth really hurts doesn't it!?! :eek:
Soriano just rejected a 5 year 70 million dollar offer from the Nationals. Man, does that bring back flashbacks. (exact same opening offer we gave to Beltran... except the Nats are moving on).
Yankees or Red Sox, take your swings... he's yours (and he won't be worth it... not until he puts up better #'s than Berkman, Pujols, or Guerrero).
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9723454
JunkyardDwg
10-12-2006, 07:27 PM
Soriano just rejected a 5 year 70 million dollar offer from the Nationals. Man, does that bring back flashbacks. (exact same opening offer we gave to Beltran... except the Nats are moving on).
Yankees or Red Sox, take your swings... he's yours (and he won't be worth it... not until he puts up better #'s than Berkman, Pujols, or Guerrero).
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9723454
I would hope the Yankees have finally learned their lesson and focus on pitching...scratch that...let them get Soriano and we can pick up Dontrelle, etc...and hopefully Carlos Lee or somebody else. :)
I would hope the Yankees have finally learned their lesson and focus on pitching...scratch that...let them get Soriano and we can pick up Dontrelle, etc...and hopefully Carlos Lee or somebody else. :)
They have enough money for both... but if they sign Soriano, it could entice them to trade A-rod, since they will have a pretty crowded infield (assuming Cano or Soriano takes an adventure to handle 3B).
Oski2005
10-12-2006, 09:43 PM
Well now Rijo is denying that he made those statements and is only saying that they had a meeting with Soriano.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/10/12/nationals.soriano.ap/
SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic (AP) -- Washington Nationals special assistant to the general manager Jose Rijo denied a published report Thursday that he told a radio station that Alfonso Soriano had rejected a $70 million, five-year offer.
"We have a meeting with Soriano this week, because we still want him to be on the team," Rijo told The Associated Press in a telephone interview Thursday.
Rijo denied telling radio station 91.9 FM, based in San Cristobal, that the Nationals would not be able to sign Soriano for economic reasons. Thursday editions of the Dominican newspaper Listin Diario quoted Rijo as telling 91.9 FM: "It's almost impossible this great player will stay on our payroll."
I really hope we can get Soriano, even if we have to overpay him. He's not like Beltre and Drew who have only shown flashes or had one solid season, he's been consistant and improving.
I picture him hitting behind Berkman forming the most awesome duo in the NL. Think of Papi and Manny, except both of these guys can play their positions fairly well. If Soriano is hitting 4th, I fully expect to see him getting at least 120 RBIs. Of course, we need guys who can get on hitting in front of them, so I think Luke Scott needs to hit in the 2 hole.
NJRocket
10-13-2006, 09:56 AM
I disagree that Soriano isnt a Berkman type offensive force.
Berkman hit 315 to Sori's 277....clearly we know that sori K's plenty and his average will always be like a Beltran-like number.270-290. (career #'s are a bit closer...280 vs 304)
Sori actually outhomered Berkman...and Sori plays in a VERY pitcher friendly park.
RBIS are 136-95 in favor of lance...but 95 is pretty darn good for a guy who hit leadoff most of the year.
The runs are 119-95 in favor or sori...which makes sense because of where they bat...but overall, the rbi's and r's are a wash
sb's are obviously going to favor sori
obp favors lance pretty heavily
All in all....I dont think you could say its crazy that a guy who puts up the numbers that Sori does isnt worth 15-17 per year given what the market is demanding these days. I certainly think that its a much better bang for the buck to give Sori 15-17 than it is to give Lee 11-12.
NJRocket
10-13-2006, 10:03 AM
Additioanlly....in response to what Nick was saying as far as ...until he puts up berkman, pujols etc type #s....i thikn we are talkking about a completely different type of player here.
This is a guy who gives us the power than a berkman does and mixes in the baserunning of a Willie t/Pierre....him being on base in front of Lance would result in some serious offesnse and could actually make Lance even better.
not to mention....wasnt he is the top 3 or so for OF assists?
All in all....I dont think you could say its crazy that a guy who puts up the numbers that Sori does isnt worth 15-17 per year given what the market is demanding these days. I certainly think that its a much better bang for the buck to give Sori 15-17 than it is to give Lee 11-12.
From what I can see... if you're one of the best FA's available, no matter what your individual skills, those guys seem "entitled" to get the $15-17 million dollar per year contract, whether or not they're actually worth it.
Soriano may be a special case... he's young, he's got power, and he's got speed. But I still don't think he was as valuable as Lance or Pujols was last year... and looking at those guys' contracts, they seem like absolute bargains.
I understand that you have to overpay sometimes... I just wish that most teams would pay guys who are actually going to put up even BIGGER numbers after the contract as beein signed (like Lance, Albert, Vladimir, and Big Papi did), or offer larger incentive-based deals that ensure that said player is going to continue to make efforts to improve every year.
We already know Lee isn't worth the $15 million he wants... and we already know that Soriano is going to get his money from somebody... but I just don't think the Astros would get him unless they offered 2-3 million more per year than the big teams do (unless, for some reason, he really really likes taco cabana).
leroy420
10-13-2006, 10:09 AM
Additioanlly....in response to what Nick was saying as far as ...until he puts up berkman, pujols etc type #s....i thikn we are talkking about a completely different type of player here.
This is a guy who gives us the power than a berkman does and mixes in the baserunning of a Willie t/Pierre....him being on base in front of Lance would result in some serious offesnse and could actually make Lance even better.
not to mention....wasnt he is the top 3 or so for OF assists?
Yeah, but so was Biggio, IIRC. What does that tell you about that stat?
Yeah, but so was Biggio, IIRC. What does that tell you about that stat?
It tells you that when you have a guy without a plus arm out there, people are going to run on him... and eventually, the ball will be hit hard enough to where some slow-footed first baseman trying to steal an extra base on Soriano gets thrown out at 3rd.
NJRocket
10-13-2006, 10:13 AM
Soriano may be a special case... he's young, he's got power, and he's got speed. But I still don't think he was as valuable as Lance or Pujols was last year... and looking at those guys' contracts, they seem like absolute bargains.
I agree....but I also think that if either was a FA this year, they would be targeting 18-20 million...and wouldnt necessarily be such bargains.
... but I just don't think the Astros would get him unless they offered 2-3 million more per year than the big teams do (unless, for some reason, he really really likes taco cabana).
he IS from Dom Rep u know...
NJRocket
10-13-2006, 10:14 AM
Yeah, but so was Biggio, IIRC. What does that tell you about that stat?
well, it also tells you that perhaps MMP is condusive to a LF throwing a lot of guys out since its such a short porch....Sori did it in a fairly big park.. (not trying to take away from what Bidge did...or pump up Sori....just was pointing out that he CAN play defense as well.)
leroy420
10-13-2006, 10:20 AM
well, it also tells you that perhaps MMP is condusive to a LF throwing a lot of guys out since its such a short porch....Sori did it in a fairly big park.. (not trying to take away from what Bidge did...or pump up Sori....just was pointing out that he CAN play defense as well.)
In Biggio's case, it was probably a combination of MMP and what Nick said...more try to take advantage and eventually he's going to get someone.
I think the same happened to Soriano this season. A lot thought they could take advantage and he managed to throw some of them out. However, the more he learns the position, the better he's going to get. With his speed, I wouldn't think a ball has a chance to land anywhere on the left side of the OF with him and Willy T out there.
You guys do remember that we could have had Soriano (when he was still a kid in the minor leagues for the Yankees, and played CF) for Moises Alou in 2000. Alou had a no-trade clause, and refused to waive it.
Damn him!
Creepy Crawl
10-13-2006, 02:12 PM
You guys do remember that we could have had Soriano (when he was still a kid in the minor leagues for the Yankees, and played CF) for Moises Alou in 2000. Alou had a no-trade clause, and refused to waive it.
Damn him!
Yes I am reminded of that everytime I see him on a SportsCenter highlight hitting one out . Damn you pee man ! :mad:
Buck Turgidson
10-13-2006, 03:17 PM
NJ: Soriano's spot in the order on the Stros is a bit tricky. You bat him leadoff, you waste a bunch of his power/rbi potential. You bat him in front of Lance, it cuts into his running game (and whenever he's on 2nd via double or steal, Lance gets pitched around). Personally, I'd bat him cleanup, same as Carlos Lee.
Also, Biggio led the league in OF assists in '03, when he played CF fulltime, not left.
Nick: Soriano came up with the yanks as an infielder (SS). Hun wanted to try him in center on the Stros.
leebigez
10-13-2006, 04:17 PM
What about A-Rod? Rangers are still paying most of his salary and the Stros have prospects.
What about A-Rod? Rangers are still paying most of his salary and the Stros have prospects.
Heh. You have only to back up a few pages to see much discussion on A-Rod. My feeling--if the Yanks will give him without demanding the entire farm then lets make a deal!
NJRocket
10-13-2006, 04:27 PM
NJ: Soriano's spot in the order on the Stros is a bit tricky. .
agreed...i think Garner would need to experiment with leading off and cleanup. In a perfect world, Huff, Ensberg or Luke could afford berkman enuf protection in the cleanup hole that you could think about batting him 2nd....this way if Berkman is walked maybe we get enuf production out of those guys to dissuade pitchers form doing so. Guess its a pipe dream for now anyway.
Joshfast
10-13-2006, 04:46 PM
If we get Soriano, imo he should bat second. If we get Lee, he should bat fourth behind the Puma.
Soriano batting second with Puma batting third - Soriano gets protection, will see alot of fastballs. If they walk him, he can steal and instantly get into scoring position with Puma at bat. Lee is more of a traditional slugger - protection for Berkman, good BA and RBI numbers.
rhino17
10-13-2006, 04:55 PM
If we get Soriano, imo he should bat second. If we get Lee, he should bat fourth behind the Puma.
Soriano batting second with Puma batting third - Soriano gets protection, will see alot of fastballs. If they walk him, he can steal and instantly get into scoring position with Puma at bat. Lee is more of a traditional slugger - protection for Berkman, good BA and RBI numbers.
The only problem wiht that is that the end of our lineup will be possibly the worst in baseball.
6) Biggio
7) Everett
8) Ausmus
9) Pitcher
I think you have bat him in either the 3 or 4 spot
Oski2005
10-13-2006, 05:27 PM
The only problem wiht that is that the end of our lineup will be possibly the worst in baseball.
6) Biggio
7) Everett
8) Ausmus
9) Pitcher
I think you have bat him in either the 3 or 4 spot
This is why it's extremely important to sign a catcher this offseason. Unfortunately, the pickings are slim, as usual. I really think that it won't be that big a problem with Biggio since he seems to start off ok and once he gets to 3000, he'll be playing less and maybe not starting at all on the road. It would be nice to get Bengie Molina or Mike Lieberthal.
TMac#1
10-13-2006, 08:56 PM
I would love to have ARod, but honestly what the hell do we have to offer the Yankees, besides Roy Oswalt???? Morgan Ensberg, Brad Lidge, Willy T, Jason Lane, Jason Hirsh, Matt Albers, Chris Burke???? What would the Yankees want with any of those guys??? They could Jered Weaver and/or Ervin Santana, Brandon Wood or Howie Kendrick from the Angels. They could get guys like Jonathan Broxton and Billingsley and other young studs from the LA Dodgers or maybe even Peavy and Linebrink from San Diego. Astros don't have enough. We'll have to settle for Carlos Lee. Soriano strikes out too much, doesn't get on base enough, plays bad defense and all he basically does is hit homers and steal bases, that is it.
Jugdish
10-14-2006, 01:06 PM
I would love to have ARod, but honestly what the hell do we have to offer the Yankees, besides Roy Oswalt???? Morgan Ensberg, Brad Lidge, Willy T, Jason Lane, Jason Hirsh, Matt Albers, Chris Burke???? What would the Yankees want with any of those guys??? They could Jered Weaver and/or Ervin Santana, Brandon Wood or Howie Kendrick from the Angels. They could get guys like Jonathan Broxton and Billingsley and other young studs from the LA Dodgers or maybe even Peavy and Linebrink from San Diego. Astros don't have enough. We'll have to settle for Carlos Lee. Soriano strikes out too much, doesn't get on base enough, plays bad defense and all he basically does is hit homers and steal bases, that is it.
Soriano's strikeouts are meaningless because he has about the same number of GIDPs as sacrifices each year (averages of 7 and 6, respectively).
rhino17
10-16-2006, 12:34 AM
I would love to have ARod, but honestly what the hell do we have to offer the Yankees, besides Roy Oswalt???? Morgan Ensberg, Brad Lidge, Willy T, Jason Lane, Jason Hirsh, Matt Albers, Chris Burke???? What would the Yankees want with any of those guys??? They could Jered Weaver and/or Ervin Santana, Brandon Wood or Howie Kendrick from the Angels. They could get guys like Jonathan Broxton and Billingsley and other young studs from the LA Dodgers or maybe even Peavy and Linebrink from San Diego. Astros don't have enough. We'll have to settle for Carlos Lee. Soriano strikes out too much, doesn't get on base enough, plays bad defense and all he basically does is hit homers and steal bases, that is it.
I dont know why you would want Lee over Soriano. Lee does all the exact same things you said Soriano doi except he cant steal bases like Soriano. And Sorian drove in 95 runs while Lee drove in 81. But, the speed alone makes me think:
Soriano > Lee
Aceshigh7
10-16-2006, 12:49 AM
I dont know why you would want Lee over Soriano. Lee does all the exact same things you said Soriano doi except he cant steal bases like Soriano. And Sorian drove in 95 runs while Lee drove in 81.
Carlos Lee drove in 116 runs, not 81. You've got to add his Brewers & Rangers stats together.
Also, Carlos Lee is said to be a very good natured and Lance Berkman-type of personality in the clubhouse. Soriano is known to be a bit surly.
Additionally, I witnessed Lee hit the hardest line drive home run I have ever seen in Minute Maid Park last year. I think there's probably still a dent in the Landry's sign above the Crawford Boxes from that shot.
In my opinion, Lee > Soriano.
rhino17
10-16-2006, 12:53 AM
Carlos Lee drove in 116 runs, not 81. You've got to add his Brewers & Rangers stats together.
Also, Carlos Lee is said to be a very good natured and Lance Berkman-type of personality in the clubhouse. Soriano is known to be a bit surly.
Additionally, I witnessed Lee hit the hardest line drive home run I have ever seen in Minute Maid Park last year. I think there's probably still a dent in the Landry's sign above the Crawford Boxes from that shot.
In my opinion, Lee > Soriano.
My bad on the RBI number. But, quite frankly, I dont care which one of them they sign as long as they get one of them. They need a bat like this and without, they will go nowhere
Aceshigh7
10-16-2006, 12:59 AM
My bad on the RBI number. But, quite frankly, I dont care which one of them they sign as long as they get one of them. They need a bat like this and without, they will go nowhere
I totally agree. I can't wait for the playoffs to be over to see who we get. This has got to be a big offseason for us.
ac in austin
10-16-2006, 10:45 AM
Just wanted to say that although dissappointed I really enjoyed this season, and this board was one of the main reasons why. Thanks to Nick, Buck, Max, msn, and all the other great posters in the Astro threads (even DaDa and his unending pessimism). The level of knowledge and respect here is a scarce commodity on the internet these days and is highly appreciated. Keep up the good work.
Astroholic
10-16-2006, 12:41 PM
Any and every year with Houston Astros baseball is a great year to me. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m241/Astroholic3/1235191827_l.gif
If true that Chisox offered a quality starter and Creede then lights out, A-Rod to H-town is a non-starter.
Astroholic
10-16-2006, 04:57 PM
From what I've seen the Yankees have said they have no intention at all to trade A-Rod. They admitted shopping around last years off season, but will not this season. Torre and A-Rod stay in New York.
camisgirl
10-16-2006, 05:09 PM
From what I've seen the Yankees have said they have no intention at all to trade A-Rod. They admitted shopping around last years off season, but will not this season. Torre and A-Rod stay in New York.
Thank God.
Thank God.
*Whew*. We almost added 40 dingers and 120 RBI.
Thank God, indeed.
Astroholic
10-16-2006, 05:13 PM
Well, it is early, and they are the Yankees. I wouldn't count anything out quite yet. I think the media brought down the Yankees this year, not A-Rod. If the media would stay out of New York, and off A-Rod nuts; they might still be playing right now.
camisgirl
10-16-2006, 05:13 PM
*Whew*. We almost added 40 dingers and 120 RBI.
Thank God, indeed.
Screw him, he isn't the only one that can do that. We have good crops down on the farm.
Astroholic
10-16-2006, 05:14 PM
*Whew*. We almost added 40 dingers and 120 RBI.
Thank God, indeed.
I say bring him to Houston. Media/ESPN hates Houston. He'll be a town hero, and he'll be left alone.
I asked this early in the thread but no one answered; Doesn't A-Rod have a car dealership or two in Houston?
I say bring him to Houston.Agreed.
Media/ESPN hates Houston.No, they don't. Houston gets less play b/c there are fewer *people* in the region than in the NE. They're catering to ratings, not playing favorites.
I asked this early in the thread but no one answered; Doesn't A-Rod have a car dealership or two in Houston?I have no idea.
camisgirl
10-16-2006, 05:18 PM
I say bring him to Houston. Media/ESPN hates Houston. He'll be a town hero, and he'll be left alone.
I asked this early in the thread but no one answered; Doesn't A-Rod have a car dealership or two in Houston?
I used to be an undercover ARod lover (not anymore, he's a moron) and I did hear something about car dealerships but I thought it was in the Dallas area. I may be mistaken but that what I think I remember someone telling me.
Astroholic
10-16-2006, 05:21 PM
I have a girl friend that lives near Katy and she told me they have Alex Rodriguez Motors, or something near that. She's completely baseball illiterate so she's not exactly sure; but that's what I've heard. Besides the bandwagon fans that follow A-Rod, I don't see any wrong in bringing him to Houston. More RBI's, more wins, more tickets sold, more merchandise sold, better squad.
TMac#1
10-16-2006, 07:29 PM
I just want to do anything to get to the playoffs again, watching these playoffs, just makes me think about those exciting, fun playoff games last yr. Think about Berkman's slam and Burke's walk off aginast ATL, think of the game 4 double play vs STL, Berkman's HR in gm 5. Boy, once youve had success like that its hard to go back. I can't wait till next season.
TMac#1
10-16-2006, 07:29 PM
I have a girl friend that lives near Katy and she told me they have Alex Rodriguez Motors, or something near that. She's completely baseball illiterate so she's not exactly sure; but that's what I've heard. Besides the bandwagon fans that follow A-Rod, I don't see any wrong in bringing him to Houston. More RBI's, more wins, more tickets sold, more merchandise sold, better squad.
He has Alex Rodriguez Mercedes Benz in league city.
Astroholic
10-16-2006, 07:31 PM
Do you know why he choose to put a dealership in Houston? I can see in Dallas since he played for the Rangers for awhile; but why Houston?
camisgirl
10-16-2006, 10:19 PM
Do you know why he choose to put a dealership in Houston? I can see in Dallas since he played for the Rangers for awhile; but why Houston?
That's what I am thinking.
Do you know why he choose to put a dealership in Houston? I can see in Dallas since he played for the Rangers for awhile; but why Houston?
It's an investment, it was available and he purchased. Nothing to do with his playing locale(s).
JunkyardDwg
10-16-2006, 10:34 PM
I just want to do anything to get to the playoffs again, watching these playoffs, just makes me think about those exciting, fun playoff games last yr. Think about Berkman's slam and Burke's walk off aginast ATL, think of the game 4 double play vs STL, Berkman's HR in gm 5. Boy, once youve had success like that its hard to go back. I can't wait till next season.
Nothing even remotely close to that this year. A's sweep the Twins. Tigers virtually sweep the Yankees. Tigers sweep the A's. Card's pretty much sweep the Padres. Mets sweep the Dodgers. Mets and Cards is almost a battle of who has the fewest weaknesses to advance to get swept by the Tigers. Not much drama this postseason. The NL class pretty much sucks and the AL rolled over for the Tigers (well they're just good).
VesceySux
10-17-2006, 12:13 AM
Do you know why he choose to put a dealership in Houston? I can see in Dallas since he played for the Rangers for awhile; but why Houston?
He's also building a dealership in West Palm Beach, FL. Don't read too much into the Houston locale.
MadMax
10-17-2006, 08:19 AM
Do you know why he choose to put a dealership in Houston? I can see in Dallas since he played for the Rangers for awhile; but why Houston?
lots of people buy luxury cars in houston. at one point houston was 2nd in the country among persons driving luxury cars, right behind Beverly Hills, CA.
NJRocket
10-17-2006, 09:54 AM
Crazy thing is that A Rod and Soriano will end up costing the same amount of money for the next 3 or 4 years....I think I'd rather have A Rod if we are going to spend the money.
leebigez
10-17-2006, 03:46 PM
Hate him or not, but Soriano would be ideal behind berkman who gets on base alot. Also i would try to trade for C. Zambrano or Willis. They also need some guys who dont strike out as much. Some contact hitter would be nice. Soriano would be very,very nice. He also steal bases which would be good. Maybe they could get A-Rod and bat him 3rd or 4th. The Rangers are paying like 70m of his contract right now. I would give up ensburg and lidge for A-Rod.
Astroholic
10-17-2006, 03:55 PM
Do you actually believe the Yankees would accept a trade for Ensberg and Lidge for A-Rod? Doubtful.
camisgirl
10-17-2006, 06:45 PM
Do you actually believe the Yankees would accept a trade for Ensberg and Lidge for A-Rod? Doubtful.
No they wouldn't. Maybe someone else and Lidge.
TMac#1
10-17-2006, 08:15 PM
Do you actually believe the Yankees would accept a trade for Ensberg and Lidge for A-Rod? Doubtful.
Oswalt........
SamCassell
10-17-2006, 08:26 PM
Oswalt........
No thanks. Oswalt should be considered untradeable, and certainly not for what the Yankees could offer.
TMac#1
10-17-2006, 08:29 PM
No thanks. Oswalt should be considered untradeable, and certainly not for what the Yankees could offer.
Youre damn right. You are talking about one of the top 2 starters in all of baseball. If you asked all of the GMs in baseball who they would top their rotation with, they would probably telll you Johan Santana and Roy Oswalt in that order. The best right hander there is, is Roy O. If ARod gets traded, I think it will be to the Angels, who have young studs they can trade.
Astroholic
10-17-2006, 08:51 PM
I love A-Rod, my favorate player; but no chance in hell Oswalt ever leaves Houston. The Astros pitching would go to hell, along with the entire franchise; fans would never forgive. If A-Rod comes to town, which I would love, can't happen with Oswalt in the sentence.
Media has had A-Rod traded to Chisox.
Media has had A-Rod traded to Angels.
Media has had A-Rod traded to Cubbies.
A-Rod will likely determine which team or teams he will waive his no-trade for, and I suspect the 'stros are not/will not be on his list.
camisgirl
10-17-2006, 10:34 PM
Oswalt........
Oh, hell no. Oswalt never leaves. He is ours and Drayton better kiss his rump to keep him here too. He's my fave pitcher of all time and to be a career Astro would be so awesome.
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