[LA Times] "Clemens, Others Implicated in Banned Drug Case"

[mokulen]

Saw this posted at the ABT board!

If the Tejada deal had gone through, we'd have three of those named!

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-clemens1oct01,0,6499528.story


Clemens, Others Implicated in Banned Drug Case
Seven-time Cy Young Award winner is among six players accused by a former teammate of using performance-enhancing drugs
By Lance Pugmire and Tim Brown, Times Staff Writers
8:32 PM PDT, September 30, 2006

Roger Clemens, 44, one of professional baseball's most durable and successful pitchers, is among six players accused by a former teammate of using performance-enhancing drugs, The Times has learned. The names had been blacked out in an affidavit filed in federal court.

Others whose identities had been concealed include Clemens' fellow Houston Astros pitcher, Andy Pettitte, and former American League Most Valuable Player Miguel Tejada of the Baltimore Orioles.

The discovery ends four months of speculation surrounding the possible identities of Major League Baseball figures whose names were redacted from a search warrant affidavit filed in Phoenix on May 31. The document was based on statements made to federal agents by pitcher Jason Grimsley.

Grimsley, a journeyman relief pitcher who has played on several teams including the New York Yankees, Baltimore Orioles and the Angels, acknowledged using steroids, amphetamines and other drugs, investigators said in the document. He also implicated a number of former teammates, but the names were blacked out in copies of the affidavit that were made public in June after investigators used the warrant to raid Grimsley's house.

A source with authorized access to an unredacted affidavit allowed The Times to see it, but retained it to read back what had been blacked out of the public copies. A second source and confidante of Grimsley had previously disclosed player identities and provided additional details about the affidavit. The sources insisted on anonymity.

According to the affidavit, Grimsley told investigators that Clemens and Pettitte "used athletic performance-enhancing drugs." He also said Tejada used anabolic steroids.

Clemens and Pettitte did not respond to requests for comment made Saturday through their agents and the Astros. Tejada had previously declined to be interviewed.

Grimsley was detained after he allegedly received an illegal shipment of human growth hormones. The shipment was tracked to his Scottsdale, Ariz., home by a task force of federal agents investigating drug use in professional baseball, the affidavit said.

For a time, Grimsley secretly cooperated with investigators, they said, but stopped after retaining a lawyer.

According to the 20-page search warrant affidavit signed by IRS Special Agent Jeff Novitzky, Grimsley told investigators he obtained amphetamines, anabolic steroids and human growth hormones from a source recommended to him by former Yankee trainer Brian McNamee. The former team trainer is a personal strength coach for both Clemens and Pettitte.

McNamee did not return multiple messages left with his wife and on his answering machine.

The affidavit also alleges that Grimsley told federal agents that his former Oriole teammates -- Tejada, Brian Roberts and Jay Gibbons -- "took anabolic steroids." Roberts was the American League's All-Star second baseman in 2005 when Grimsley was an Oriole.

All three Baltimore players declined to be interviewed. Roberts said he had "nothing to talk about" and didn't know why Grimsley named him. A sixth player, retired outfielder David Segui previously came forward to say that his name was among those blacked out in the affidavit provided to the public. Segui told ESPN in June that he used HGH on the advice of his doctor as recently as the 2004 season. He did not obtain approval from the league, he acknowledged.

Government officials have declined to comment about either their ongoing investigation of drugs in professional baseball.

Clemens, a seven-time Cy Young Award winner who came out of retirement to pitch for the Astros in each of the last two years, was a teammate of Grimsley on the Yankees in 1999-2000, as was Pettitte, a two-time All-Star who is nearing 200 career wins. Grimsley, Tejada, Gibbons and Roberts were teammates in Baltimore during the 2005 season.

Grimsley started this year with the Arizona Diamondbacks, but requested voluntary retirement in June after his arrest. The National League also suspended him for 50 games. Edward Novak, Grimsley's lawyer, did not return calls. Previously, he publicly disputed the claims investigators made the affidavit, saying that his client did not volunteer the names of any teammates. He said federal agents asked Grimsley to wear a recording device to gather evidence against San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds, but Grimsley refused.

Grimsley has not been charged. Since June, he has complained to friends that federal agents credited him with statements and disclosures he didn't make.

"Jason is loyal to the death, a hard-headed guy who would not give up his friends," one of Grimsley's friends said Saturday. "The only names he discussed with those investigators were names ... [the investigators] suggested to him."

The Grimsley friend, who talked about the investigation on condition that he was not named, said investigators warned the pitcher "if he didn't continue to cooperate, they would expose him as a rat."

Richard Levin, a spokesman for Major League Baseball, said the organization and players association are "doing everything we can to eliminate the use of performance-enhancing substances and amphetamines from the game."

[htownballa23]

Just saw this on sportscenter too. Didnt they say something like this about Clemens last year too?

[Faos]

That ought to put a nice damper on the end of the season.

[The Cat]

"Jason is loyal to the death, a hard-headed guy who would not give up his friends," one of Grimsley's friends said Saturday. "The only names he discussed with those investigators were names ... [the investigators] suggested to him."

The Grimsley friend, who talked about the investigation on condition that he was not named, said investigators warned the pitcher "if he didn't continue to cooperate, they would expose him as a rat."

Pay attention to that paragraph. This is nothing more than the witchhunt that's been underway for two years to Clemens and Tejada among a few others.

[Major]

Pay attention to that paragraph. This is nothing more than the witchhunt that's been underway for two years to Clemens and Tejada among a few others.

Except you were quoting hearsay as well. That was all just a Grimsley friend's opinion. So far, it seems that more often than not, the people exposed in these types of things have turned out to be guilty after their initial denials. (Palmeiro, Bonds, Sheffield, Giambi, for example). Everyone blasted Canseco when he exposed people too, and it looks now that he was right.

It would surprise me one bit if any or all of those guys (Clemens, Pettitte, Tejada) did use at some point or another.

[Major]

It would surprise me one bit if any or all of those guys (Clemens, Pettitte, Tejada) did use at some point or another.

Err, wouldn't surprise me.

[Mr. Brightside]

I knew it. Guilty! Didn't expect Pettite to been using this stuff though.

[dtowninyourtown]

id be real surprised if clemens and pettite really did use them... i guess we will eventually kno

[Saint Louis]

If you are not cheating, then you are not trying.

Gaylord Perry

[The Cat]

I knew it. Guilty! Didn't expect Pettite to been using this stuff though.

Yeah, this is definitely an overwhelming case. :rolleyes:

[The Cat]

Except you were quoting hearsay as well. That was all just a Grimsley friend's opinion. So far, it seems that more often than not, the people exposed in these types of things have turned out to be guilty after their initial denials. (Palmeiro, Bonds, Sheffield, Giambi, for example). Everyone blasted Canseco when he exposed people too, and it looks now that he was right.

It would surprise me one bit if any or all of those guys (Clemens, Pettitte, Tejada) did use at some point or another.

Now apparently it's Grimsley's opinion as well.

Houston-based agent Randy Hendricks, who represents Clemens and Pettitte, 34, told the Associated Press: "I'm told (Grimsley) has denied saying all of this. It's an agent's recollection about a conversation he had about conjecture."

http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4227493.html

So, Grimsley's personal friends deny it, and now sources that would be in the know report that Grimsley denies it... can somebody say witchhunt? This is a non-event, except to all the conspiracy theorists out there who love a ficticious story.

[Air Langhi]

It wouldn't suprise me if clemens used it. He is huge.

[Deuce Rings]

It wouldn't suprise me if clemens used it. He is huge.

Not to mention that he remains one of, if not the, top pitcher in the game at age 44 if I could inject some Terrell Owens logic here.

[Storm Surge]

It wouldn't suprise me if clemens used it. He is huge.
agreed, his career/body was dissimulating during the late 90s, then all of a sudden he came to Houston and started throwing fireballs again...at 45!

Not saying he did it, but...

[Major]

Now apparently it's Grimsley's opinion as well.

Houston-based agent Randy Hendricks, who represents Clemens and Pettitte, 34, told the Associated Press: "I'm told (Grimsley) has denied saying all of this. It's an agent's recollection about a conversation he had about conjecture."

http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4227493.html


Now you're quoting the agent of the guys accused and using that as Grimsley's opinion?

Grimsley denied all of it as soon as it became public last season (or was it early this season?) and he became enemy #1 in MLB clubhouses. He was apparently promised his information would remain confidential. It's hard to say exactly what really happened, but Grimsley's motivation for denial was that he became an outcast in the player community.

[pgabriel]

look at clemens' head. pettitte has a big horse head.

[CometsWin]

Clemens, Gibbons, and Tejada wouldn't surprise me but Pettitte just doesn't seem the body type.

[Truth]

Clemens, Gibbons, and Tejada wouldn't surprise me but Pettitte just doesn't seem the body type.

What do you mean? No homo, but Pettitte's upper body and legs are huge... I wouldnt be surprised .. -

[KAS13]

I'm giving Clemens and Petite the benefit of the doubt because they've earned it. I could careless what Jaon Grimsley has to say. Plus, there's been so much flip flopping on this situation involving what Grimsley actually said or didn't say.

[pgabriel]

I'm giving Clemens and Petite the benefit of the doubt because they've earned it. I could careless what Jaon Grimsley has to say. Plus, there's been so much flip flopping on this situation involving what Grimsley actually said or didn't say.


how have they earned the benefit of the doubt as opposed to others who have been accused

[CometsWin]

What do you mean? No homo, but Pettitte's upper body and legs are huge... I wouldnt be surprised .. -



He always seemed a lot more lanky than bulky to me.

[Nice Rollin]

so that why pettite and clemens are such good friends

[The Cat]

how have they earned the benefit of the doubt as opposed to others who have been accused

They all deserve the benefit of the doubt given how many questions there are about how this information came about.

[tested911]

Err, wouldn't surprise me.

Ditto

[The Cat]

agreed, his career/body was dissimulating during the late 90s, then all of a sudden he came to Houston and started throwing fireballs again...at 45!

Not saying he did it, but...

His career was dissiumulating? What years were those? 1997, when he won 21 games with an ERA of 2.05 and won the Cy Young? 1998, when he won 20 games with an ERA of 2.65? 2001, when he went 20-3 and won the Cy Young with a 3.51 ERA? Yes, his numbers did get even better upon moving to Houston... and have you looked at the incredible discrepancy between the AL and NL the last three years? Imagine that, the NL being easier to put up great numbers in than the AL... nah, that can't be, it's gotta be roids!!!!!!!

And yes, Roger's a little heavier now. Imagine that, a man entering his mid-40s picks up a slightly different body type than he had earlier in his career. That would never happen! It's gotta be roids!!!!!

[YaozaMac]

What do you mean? No homo, but Pettitte's upper body and legs are huge... I wouldnt be surprised .. -

What do you expect his legs to look like, he is 6'5" tall and 225, maybe 225lbs+.

Should Pettitte have petite legs in the absence of enhancing drugs :confused: :rolleyes:

[JuLiO-R-]

Why don't any of our hitters use steroids? We could use the extra firepower on offense.

[TMac640]

so that why pettite and clemens are such good friends

so that's why the mets suck

lololololololzolozlolol

[TMac640]

Why don't any of our hitters use steroids? We could use the extra firepower on offense.

no ****, you can exempt 99% of our offense this year from any steroid accusations :p

[YaozaMac]

Clemens and Pettitte both eat HEB beef which contains Bovine Growth Hormone residue and this is why they are pumped up along with their training. Plus any HEB milk they drink.


*HEB is being used here because of the Clemens/Pettitte ads, but this is not limited to HEB as all grocery stores are the sales and distribution of these products.

[dharocks]

One is a guy with anger problems, a big fastball, and is one of the biggest players in the game who pitches at a level never seen before at his age. The other is his workout partner who one year mysteriously gained several MPH on his fastball and has had his share of ligament injuries since then. Not totally surprised.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-clemens1oct01,0,6499528.story?coll=la-home-headlines

According to the 20-page search warrant affidavit, signed by IRS Special Agent Jeff Novitzky, Grimsley told investigators he obtained amphetamines, anabolic steroids and human growth hormone from someone recommended to him by, a source said, former Yankees trainer Brian McNamee. The former team trainer is a personal strength coach for Clemens and Pettitte.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_13_224/ai_61573760

Some scouts are predicting major improvement for RHP Roger Clemens in his second season in the Bronx, and it has nothing to do with any adjustment to New York. Some believe Clemens wasn't completely healthy last year. That might explain why Clemens had the Yankees import Brian McNamee, his personal trainer with the Blue Jays, from Toronto

[KAS13]

how have they earned the benefit of the doubt as opposed to others who have been accused


Easy. I still give Tejada the benefit of the doubt. We all pretty much stood by Palmeiro until he tested positive after his performance at the congressional hearing. A lot of that alo has to do with history. Tejada, Clemens and Pettitte have continued to play well while Sosa is out of the game, Bonds admitted it, Canseco admitted , Palmeiro tested positive and Mac's act at the Congressional hearing was pathetic. That's why they get the benefit of the doubt

Grimsley is saying that he didn't mention certain names. With him flip flopping one can easily question his credibility. Nobody is taking shots at Sheffield either. Why, no proof. That's why they get the benfit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty bro. There's why

[The Cat]

Albert Pujols' personal trainer has been under just as much heat as McNamee. Funny how the media never played up that angle, though. It was simply a mention in an article on Deadspin.

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php

Grimsley says that a former employee of [redacted] and personal fitness trainer to several Major League Baseball players once referred him to an amphetamine source. Later, this source -- not the trainer -- provided him with "amphetamines, anabolic steroids and human growth hormone." This trainer? His name is Chris Mihlfeld, a Kansas City-based "strength and conditioning guru." (And former Strength And Conditioning Coordinator for the Royals.)

Does Mihlfeld's name sound familiar? If it doesn't, he -- and we assure you, this gives us no pleasure to write this -- has been Albert Pujols' personal trainer since before Pujols was drafted by the Cardinals in the 13th round of the 1999 draft.

But, because it was Pujols and not Clemens, this was quickly swept under the rug. I'd also like some evidence of Pettitte's supposed "mysterious" velocity gain... I'd never heard of it before and it's nowhere to be found in numerous internet searches. Surely this can't be part of a wild conspiracy theory, could it?

[KAS13]

Albert Pujols' personal trainer has been under just as much heat as McNamee. Funny how the media never played up that angle, though. It was simply a mention in an article on Deadspin.

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php

Grimsley says that a former employee of [redacted] and personal fitness trainer to several Major League Baseball players once referred him to an amphetamine source. Later, this source -- not the trainer -- provided him with "amphetamines, anabolic steroids and human growth hormone." This trainer? His name is Chris Mihlfeld, a Kansas City-based "strength and conditioning guru." (And former Strength And Conditioning Coordinator for the Royals.)

Does Mihlfeld's name sound familiar? If it doesn't, he -- and we assure you, this gives us no pleasure to write this -- has been Albert Pujols' personal trainer since before Pujols was drafted by the Cardinals in the 13th round of the 1999 draft.

But, because it was Pujols and not Clemens, this was quickly swept under the rug. I'd also like some evidence of Pettitte's supposed "mysterious" velocity gain... I'd never heard of it before and it's nowhere to be found in numerous internet searches. Surely this can't be part of a wild conspiracy theory, could it?


It's just a bunch of gossip mongers bro. It's sad that Clemens and Pettitte can't get the benefit of the doubt on our own board. Sad

[Zac D]

so that's why the mets suck

lololololololzolozlolol

Dude. YOU are freakin' awesome.

[KingCheetah]

http://i9.tinypic.com/441wfh2.jpg

Grimey?

[SWTsig]

who cares anymore???

at this point, it's painfully obvious that a very large percentage of players are using some sort of performance enhancing drugs.... it all balances out. what difference does it make if 70% of the batters clemens and pettitte face are juicing too?

hell, they'd be at a distinct disadvantage if they didn't use them.

it's all relative at this point.

[francis 4 prez]

Yeah, this is definitely an overwhelming case. :rolleyes:


maybe you can write "Roger *lemens, steroids user" in your sig and that'll prove it isn't really true to everyone reading.


after clemens two huge toronto years, his ERA was 4.60, 3.70, 3.51, 4.35, 3.91 in his last five years with the yankess (all of which appear to be full, relatively injury-free years). that 3.70 was 2nd in the AL actually, but aside from 3.51 being 9th the next year, none of the others were top 10. then he comes to houston and becomes the best pitcher in the major leagues with 2.98, 1.87 (1.87!), and 2.30 this year. he's making johan santana look like a chump. now would being in the national league help ones absolute stats, yes. but how do you go from nice, but slipping pitcher in the AL to the absolute best in the NL? the NL sucks at hitting, but they still have some nice pitchers who you would think clemens would fit into around the same relative position he held in the AL.

now maybe clemens really didn't do anything, maybe he's completely clean. but when barry bonds went from putting up really good numbers to suddenly becoming babe ruth plus, people started thinking steroids pretty quickly, even before all the BALCO stuff came out. now clemens has gone from nice numbers to historic numbers at the ages of 43 and 44 in the middle of the steroids era and being suspicious is somehow crazy? and now he's actually been named and it's just a witchhunt? as if grimsley just made some names up and isn't just saving his own ass by trying to backtrack off remarks he thought would never get out. now maybe grimsley was acting off bad info, but i don't doubt he named those names.

i hope all this doesn't make it now less likely that either or both of clemens and pettitte will come back next year b/c we need those roiders on our pitching staff.

[JunkyardDwg]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_13_224/ai_61573760


So guilty by association huh...I'm sure this trainer has plenty of clients, are we to just assume that because he provided peformance enhancing drugs to one athlete that he provided them to all?

Give me rock-solid proof instead of this he said/she said bulls**t.

Palmeiro waving his finger in front of a congressional committee, then actually getting busted, then retiring...that's some pretty hard evidence.

[whag00]

Clemens, Pettitte deny drug accusations
Astros pitchers react to allegations in affidavit by former reliever Jason Grimsley


By JOSE DE JESUS ORTIZ
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

ATLANTA - A day after a newspaper named Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens as players accused of using steroids in an affidavit former reliever Jason Grimsley gave federal agents, Pettitte and Clemens vehemently denied the validity of the accusations.
“I’m stunned, obviously,” Pettitte said about the Los Angeles Times report that was posted online late Saturday night. “I don’t really know what to say. I played with Grimsley for a couple years in New York obviously. Had a great relationship with him. I never worked out with him before or anything like that away from the field other than just being in the weight room together whenever we were home.

“Obviously it’s embarrassing any time your name gets brought up with something. It’s embarrassing.”

Clemens was equally adamant in his denial.

“I’m not embarrassed at all,” Clemens said. “I’m angry about it. It shouldn’t happen. The assumptions that are out there, I just don’t understand it. I don’t understand how people can do that and get away with it. I really don’t. I don’t know how you can just on assumption or hearsay just throw it out there and it’s fact.”

Grimsley played with Pettitte and Clemens in 1999 and 2000 with the New York Yankees, but Pettitte and Clemens said they didn’t work out with Grimsley other than if they were in the weight room together in the Yankees’ clubhouse.

Not long after federal agents raided Grimsley’s home in June, rumors throughout baseball circulated that Grimsley had named Pettitte and Clemens in his affidavit.

After hearing the rumblings, Pettitte actually went online and read through the 20-page affidavit. The names of the six players who were in the affidavit were blacked out when the affidavit was released to the public in June.

“I think that there is so much hearsay,” Pettitte said. “Obviously these (affidavit) reports came out, I think, four or five months ago. I was able to go online and look at the affidavit. To tell you the truth, I would have bet my life that there was no way possible that my name could even be on the affidavit. As far as I’m concerned, there is so much hearsay it just to me doesn’t hold a lot of water.”

Pettitte stood by his own word and didn’t try to distance himself from a friendship with Grimsley. Moreover, Clemens and Pettitte stood firmly by their relationship with former Yankee trainer Brian McNamee, whom the Los Angeles Times reported was named in Grimsley’s affidavit. McNamee first worked with Clemens when the veteran righthander played with the Toronto Blue Jays.

“According to the 20-page search warrant affidavit, signed by IRS Special Agent Jeff Novitzky, Grimsley told investigators he obtained amphetamines, anabolic steroids and human growth hormone from a source recommended to him by former Yankee trainer Brian McNamee,” the Los Angeles Times reported.

Pettitte still remains in contact with McNamee, who was actually at Osceola County Stadium in February helping Clemens get ready for the World Baseball Classic.

“I talk to Mac once a week,” Pettitte said. “Obviously he doesn’t do anything for me right now. Mac is the greatest trainer that I’ve ever been involved with or around. He’s trained me for the five years that (he) was in New York. I hired him for the year that I was in my first year in Houston. I’ve got a great relationship with him. I still talk to him probably once a week or so. Mac’s been awesome. He’s been awesome for my career.

“That would be news to me. Mac has trained me, and trained me professionally for a long time. I will continue to use Mac to train me. He’s one of a kind.”

Clemens, 44, also defended McNamee, calling him one of the best trainers he’s had during his long career.

“As far as the training part of it and Mac, I’ve probably over my career probably had 15-20 trainers,” Clemens said. “He’s at the top of the list as being one of the best, the most intense. He’s very good at what he does. I’ll train with him any time. He gets the most out of you.

“The times he worked with different ballclubs – two of the four that I’ve worked with – he gets a lot out of you, expects a lot out of you. And he’s not one of those guys that want to hang around with you too or be around you. He wants to get your work done and get you where you need to be and be done with you.”

Pettitte and Clemens reiterated that they have passed every test Major League Baseball has administered on them to check for steroids and amphetamines. MLB’s tests cannot detect Human Growth Hormone use.

“I haven’t done anything,” Pettitte said. “I guess reports are saying that I’ve used performance-enhancing drugs. I’ve never used any drugs to enhance my performance on the baseball field before. Like I said, I don’t know what else to say except that it is embarrassing that my name would be out there with this.”

Added Clemens: “Like I told you guys before, I’ve been tested plenty of times. My physicals that I’ve taken, they’ve taken my blood work. I’ve passed every test anybody wants. Again, I find it just amazing that you can just throw anybody out there. Like I was telling Andy and some of the guys here today, I guess tomorrow they’re going to accuse us of robbing a bank. The bottom line is, like I said, if it’s not in my Frappuccino I’m all right. That’s when I’ll start worrying about it.”

At this point neither man threatened legal action, but Clemens made it clear he might consider his options if one of his many endorsement deals is hindered.

“When it’s going to take a serious turn for me is when one of my sponsors pull out or something like that,” he said. “Then somebody is going to be responsible for that. Then my lawyers will take over for me.”

Clemens finished his interview by quoting his late mother, Bess.

“Listen, listen,” he said. “Last thing I’ll say about this: My momma said never to get in a pissing contest with a skunk. It’s as simple as that.”

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4227802.html

[JunkyardDwg]

maybe you can write "Roger *lemens, steroids user" in your sig and that'll prove it isn't really true to everyone reading.


after clemens two huge toronto years, his ERA was 4.60, 3.70, 3.51, 4.35, 3.91 in his last five years with the yankess (all of which appear to be full, relatively injury-free years). that 3.70 was 2nd in the AL actually, but aside from 3.51 being 9th the next year, none of the others were top 10. then he comes to houston and becomes the best pitcher in the major leagues with 2.98, 1.87 (1.87!), and 2.30 this year. he's making johan santana look like a chump. now would being in the national league help ones absolute stats, yes. but how do you go from nice, but slipping pitcher in the AL to the absolute best in the NL? the NL sucks at hitting, but they still have some nice pitchers who you would think clemens would fit into around the same relative position he held in the AL.

now maybe clemens really didn't do anything, maybe he's completely clean. but when barry bonds went from putting up really good numbers to suddenly becoming babe ruth plus, people started thinking steroids pretty quickly, even before all the BALCO stuff came out. now clemens has gone from nice numbers to historic numbers at the ages of 43 and 44 in the middle of the steroids era and being suspicious is somehow crazy? and now he's actually been named and it's just a witchhunt? as if grimsley just made some names up and isn't just saving his own ass by trying to backtrack off remarks he thought would never get out. now maybe grimsley was acting off bad info, but i don't doubt he named those names.

i hope all this doesn't make it now less likely that either or both of clemens and pettitte will come back next year b/c we need those roiders on our pitching staff.


Whoa, hold on there a sec. If this report is true, then it basically is claiming Clemens used steroids during his Yankees years, when both him and Pettite were teamates of Grimsley. So basically you're saying he didn't use steroids when Grimsley would have been in a position to possibly witness it but DID when he and Grimsley weren't even in the same damn clubhouse anymore.

I don't think it's hard to suggest that his switch to the NL helped to lower his ERA...as for one hitters need time to adjust to pitchers they haven't faced before, two, pitchers don't have to face a DH, and three the NL (at least recently) is weaker offensively than the AL. Look at Randy Johnson's years before, during after his Diamondback tenure.

[francis 4 prez]

So basically you're saying he didn't use steroids when Grimsley would have been in a position to possibly witness it but DID when he and Grimsley weren't even in the same damn clubhouse anymore.

i don't know if he used or not, but who said he didn't start using with the yankees? bonds apparently started after the 1998 homerun chase but didn't really become superman until 2001.

I don't think it's hard to suggest that his switch to the NL helped to lower his ERA...as for one hitters need time to adjust to pitchers they haven't faced before, two, pitchers don't have to face a DH, and three the NL (at least recently) is weaker offensively than the AL. Look at Randy Johnson's years before, during after his Diamondback tenure.


i said it helped in an absolute sense with a lower ERA, but relatively speaking he wasn't a top 10 pitcher in the AL his last 2 years with the yankees and now has been the absolute best in the NL the last 2 years. 1.87 last year was like .50 ahead of anyone else and now his 2.30 this year is apparently the best in the majors since he started pitching on 6/22. there can't be like 15 pitchers in the AL who are all better than every single pitcher in the NL. now like i said, maybe he is clean. maybe ausmus just calls games that well, maybe somehow NL hitters just can't figure him out but can other NL pitchers, maybe clemens figured something out he wasn't using for 20 years, but when you suddenly get way better at 43 and 44 in the steroids era and someone has actually named you, it's not really crazy to think you may have used them.

[dharocks]

So guilty by association huh...I'm sure this trainer has plenty of clients, are we to just assume that because he provided peformance enhancing drugs to one athlete that he provided them to all?

Give me rock-solid proof instead of this he said/she said bulls**t.

If you don't think it should raise some suspicion, that's your business.

I disagree.

[The Cat]

maybe you can write "Roger *lemens, steroids user" in your sig and that'll prove it isn't really true to everyone reading.

So you've decided you speak for the entire BBS... that's nice. Very objective.

[toby]

This might be a silly question, but is there a documented connection between performance enhancing drugs and ERA?

I am sure there might be a contribution, but seems to me that a good catcher that calls a good game would contribute more to an ERA than getting juiced up.

[HayesStreet]

I didn't know steroids gave you great control, he hasn't had an over the top fastball in awhile, and he always had his temper. Switching leagues can explain his ERA going down (unfamiliar hitters and no DH) just as it helped Ryan. Oh wait, I guess Nolan was on 'roids too since he was also a power pitcher into his middle 40s. :eek:

[toby]

I didn't know steroids gave you great control, he hasn't had an over the top fastball in awhile, and he always had his temper. Switching leagues can explain his ERA going down (unfamiliar hitters and no DH) just as it helped Ryan. Oh wait, I guess Nolan was on 'roids too since he was also a power pitcher into his middle 40s. :eek:


Nolan must still be on roids . . . cause look how much he has bulked up in his 50's

[JunkyardDwg]

If you don't think it should raise some suspicion, that's your business.

I disagree.

I just want some hard solid facts.

And what exactly is the correlation between taking performance drugs and pitching...cause that Grimsley guy wasn't exactly....good. Maybe it helps to raise your velocity a little (?) but if that's the case, then it wouldn't apply to Clemens as his velocity has clearly came down. I dunno, I just think it's easy to just assume that most players are using them because of some bad apples. But then that drags innocent players through the mud.

Honestly, it's getting to a point where frankly I don't give a s**t anymore...kind of never really did all that much anyways. Players are always looking for that extra edge, that ain't ever gonna change.

[JunkyardDwg]

i don't know if he used or not, but who said he didn't start using with the yankees? bonds apparently started after the 1998 homerun chase but didn't really become superman until 2001.




i said it helped in an absolute sense with a lower ERA, but relatively speaking he wasn't a top 10 pitcher in the AL his last 2 years with the yankees and now has been the absolute best in the NL the last 2 years. 1.87 last year was like .50 ahead of anyone else and now his 2.30 this year is apparently the best in the majors since he started pitching on 6/22. there can't be like 15 pitchers in the AL who are all better than every single pitcher in the NL. now like i said, maybe he is clean. maybe ausmus just calls games that well, maybe somehow NL hitters just can't figure him out but can other NL pitchers, maybe clemens figured something out he wasn't using for 20 years, but when you suddenly get way better at 43 and 44 in the steroids era and someone has actually named you, it's not really crazy to think you may have used them.

Fair enough. I'm not in total defense of him or anybody where a cloud of supsicion is hovering over them, but I've tried to maintain an innocent until proven guilty approach. I think what pisses me off more is when athletes actually are found in possession and vehemently deny any wrongdoing (Palmeiro, Bonds, Landis, etc).

And yes he came over to the NL and his ERA dropped dramatically and he's still as dominant as year one for the Astros...but then you look at how he pitches and that kinda seems to go against what steroids would provide...unless they do help with your control, I dunno.

[dharocks]

While I don't think steroids will magically increase a pitcher's velocity, many have attributed Clemens' remarkable performance at his age to his ridiculous workout regimen.

It's certainly possible that steroids could help a play A) recover from workouts quicker and B) recover from the physical strain of pitching every 5 days.

[rrj_gamz]

Not to say this couldn't have happened, but until there is hard evidence, I'll hold judgement...It would be a shame...

[Buck Turgidson]

Every single MLB player from about 1946 to now is/was a suspected user of performance-enhancing drugs.

Does the fact that Mickey Mantle & Pete Rose (just to name 2) popped amphetamines like they were Tic-Tacs diminish their accomplishments as players?

Just enjoy the game.

[pgabriel]

Every single MLB player from about 1946 to now is/was a suspected user of performance-enhancing drugs.

Does the fact that Mickey Mantle & Pete Rose (just to name 2) popped amphetamines like they were Tic-Tacs diminish their accomplishments as players?

Just enjoy the game.


agree

[Ognilecaf]

Clemens finished his interview by quoting his late mother, Bess.

“Listen, listen,” he said. “Last thing I’ll say about this: My momma said never to get in a pissing contest with a skunk. It’s as simple as that.”

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4227802.html
lol....Am i the only one who thought that was funny...

[crose]

Every single MLB player from about 1946 to now is/was a suspected user of performance-enhancing drugs.

Does the fact that Mickey Mantle & Pete Rose (just to name 2) popped amphetamines like they were Tic-Tacs diminish their accomplishments as players?

Just enjoy the game.
agree 100%.

also....just for my own personal knowledge...what is the fuss over HGH? This stuff improves your eyesight, physique, libido, slows the aging process, and yet it is placed in the same conversation as steroids, which have been linked to many health hazards. Am I missing something, because the only knock I can find about HGH is the price.

Please...somebody school me!

[Mr. Clutch]

Every single MLB player from about 1946 to now is/was a suspected user of performance-enhancing drugs.

Does the fact that Mickey Mantle & Pete Rose (just to name 2) popped amphetamines like they were Tic-Tacs diminish their accomplishments as players?

Just enjoy the game.

Totally disagree. The game is supposed to be about skill and talent. Not about who gets the best drugs.

[MadMax]

Totally disagree. The game is supposed to be about skill and talent. Not about who gets the best drugs.

how is that responsive to his post. no one is suggesting the opposite of what you're saying. they're suggesting it's been this way forever...

and i'll suggest something further...it's like this in all sports now. we don't have a great way to test for HGH right now. you don't think football players and basketball players are using this stuff, too?

[Mr. Clutch]

maybe you can write "Roger *lemens, steroids user" in your sig and that'll prove it isn't really true to everyone reading.


after clemens two huge toronto years, his ERA was 4.60, 3.70, 3.51, 4.35, 3.91 in his last five years with the yankess (all of which appear to be full, relatively injury-free years). that 3.70 was 2nd in the AL actually, but aside from 3.51 being 9th the next year, none of the others were top 10. then he comes to houston and becomes the best pitcher in the major leagues with 2.98, 1.87 (1.87!), and 2.30 this year. he's making johan santana look like a chump. now would being in the national league help ones absolute stats, yes. but how do you go from nice, but slipping pitcher in the AL to the absolute best in the NL? the NL sucks at hitting, but they still have some nice pitchers who you would think clemens would fit into around the same relative position he held in the AL.

now maybe clemens really didn't do anything, maybe he's completely clean. but when barry bonds went from putting up really good numbers to suddenly becoming babe ruth plus, people started thinking steroids pretty quickly, even before all the BALCO stuff came out. now clemens has gone from nice numbers to historic numbers at the ages of 43 and 44 in the middle of the steroids era and being suspicious is somehow crazy? and now he's actually been named and it's just a witchhunt? as if grimsley just made some names up and isn't just saving his own ass by trying to backtrack off remarks he thought would never get out. now maybe grimsley was acting off bad info, but i don't doubt he named those names.

i hope all this doesn't make it now less likely that either or both of clemens and pettitte will come back next year b/c we need those roiders on our pitching staff.

On the other hand, Clemens is not pitching anywhere near the velocity he did when he was in his prime. He isn't coming close to records in strikeouts or innings. He clearly has had to pitch smarter rather than just overpowering hitters. He can barely pitch into the 8th inning. This is totally different than Bonds, who was demolishing the record books. Bonds was having his best years in his mid 30s, Clemens was pitching well but not like he was when he was young. On top of that, the league has begun testing in the past couple years, which were some of his better "old" years.

I'm not convinced he didn't use steroids, but I don't think his stats indicate that he did.

[Mr. Clutch]

how is that responsive to his post. no one is suggesting the opposite of what you're saying. they're suggesting it's been this way forever...

and i'll suggest something further...it's like this in all sports now. we don't have a great way to test for HGH right now. you don't think football players and basketball players are using this stuff, too?

I don't know if they are, and my point is it does reduce their accomplishments if they use illegal drugs. And the more effective the drug, the more it diminishes their accomplishments. It was a joke when guys like Luis Gonzalez was on pace for 70 home runs.

[Buck Turgidson]

Totally disagree. The game is supposed to be about skill and talent. Not about who gets the best drugs.
Not saying it's right, not saying it isn't cheating, just saying that you're searching for a standard of purity that has *never* existed in MLB.

[MadMax]

I don't know if they are, and my point is it does reduce their accomplishments if they use illegal drugs. And the more effective the drug, the more it diminishes their accomplishments. It was a joke when guys like Luis Gonzalez was on pace for 70 home runs.

say what you want about gonzalez..but until there's proof, it's just speculation.

i think buck's comments nailed it. there is steroid speculation around everyone. in the 70's they were popping "greenies" like skittles. players are always looking for an advantage where the difference between great and a trip back to the minors is one more hit in ten at bats.

the exclusive focus on baseball is silly to me, now. particularly when we're talking HGH. and the media is missing that entirely.

[Mr. Clutch]

say what you want about gonzalez..but until there's proof, it's just speculation.

i think buck's comments nailed it. there is steroid speculation around everyone. in the 70's they were popping "greenies" like skittles. players are always looking for an advantage where the difference between great and a trip back to the minors is one more hit in ten at bats.

the exclusive focus on baseball is silly to me, now. particularly when we're talking HGH. and the media is missing that entirely.

I think people have enough circumstantial evidence on guys like Luis Gonzalez to make their own judgments. It's interesting how the stats of guys like him and Boone and Bonds want down after the league started clamping down.

As far as people always looking for an advantage- that doesn't make it ok to use steroids, and it certainly doesn't mean their accomplishments cannot reduced in the eyes of fans. It definitely reduces the enjoyment of the game when people chemically enhance their abilities to such an extreme degree.

I don't think the focus should be exclusively on baseball, every sport should be looked at.

[Buck Turgidson]

It definitely reduces the enjoyment of the game when people chemically enhance their abilities to such an extreme degree.
When exactly was your enjoyment of the game reduced?

[pgabriel]

On the other hand, Clemens is not pitching anywhere near the velocity he did when he was in his prime. He isn't coming close to records in strikeouts or innings. He clearly has had to pitch smarter rather than just overpowering hitters. He can barely pitch into the 8th inning. This is totally different than Bonds, who was demolishing the record books. Bonds was having his best years in his mid 30s, Clemens was pitching well but not like he was when he was young. On top of that, the league has begun testing in the past couple years, which were some of his better "old" years.

I'm not convinced he didn't use steroids, but I don't think his stats indicate that he did.


pitchers use hgh and steroids for recovery. no one's gonna increase their velocity.

[SamFisher]

the exclusive focus on baseball is silly to me, now. particularly when we're talking HGH. and the media is missing that entirely.

Probably because baseball has been, by far, the worst of the major sports leagues about enacting or enforcing drug bans, and because the way baseball was able to resuscitate itself from the 1994 strike (where its populartiy was at an alltime low) and becoming bigger and more popular than before by using steroid pumped sluggers like McGwire, etc. to re-build the fan base. Say what you will about the other sports, but that's basically unprecedented; no other major pro sport in the US has so openly and obviously profited off of performance enhancing drugs the way baseball has.

[Mr. Clutch]

Not saying it's right, not saying it isn't cheating, just saying that you're searching for a standard of purity that has *never* existed in MLB.

I'm not searching for a standard of purity. But when the game becomes about chemically enhanced freaks setting unbelievable records, then it's a joke.

[Mr. Clutch]

When exactly was your enjoyment of the game reduced?

During the steroid era, when scrubs like Bret Boone looked like Jeff Bagwell (who may also have been on steroids).

[Mr. Clutch]

pitchers use hgh and steroids for recovery. no one's gonna increase their velocity.

Maybe so, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Clemens or Pettite used. But their stats didn't get better.

[MadMax]

Probably because baseball has been, by far, the worst of the major sports leagues about enacting or enforcing drug bans, and because the way baseball was able to resuscitate itself from the 1994 strike (where its populartiy was at an alltime low) and becoming bigger and more popular than before by using steroid pumped sluggers like McGwire, etc. to re-build the fan base. Say what you will about the other sports, but that's basically unprecedented; no other major pro sport in the US has so openly and obviously profited off of performance enhancing drugs the way baseball has.

you're absolutely right. the track record isn't good.

but HGH isn't just a baseball problem. that's what we're talking about in this affidavit, apparently.

[Buck Turgidson]

During the steroid era, when scrubs like Bret Boone looked like Jeff Bagwell (who may also have been on steroids).
But not earlier, when by all accounts the vast majority of players were undoubtedly using performance-enhancing drugs?

[Mr. Clutch]

But not earlier, when by all accounts the vast majority of players were undoubtedly using performance-enhancing drugs?

Are you talking about amphetamines? I don't think the degree that performance was enhanced was anywhere near to what happened in the steroid area.

[HayesStreet]

Still haven't seen anyone make a lucid argument on how steroids OR hgh brings your ERA down. Nor how they would affect control, which the main reason cited for Clemens great pitching the last few years. Until that happens it seems incredibly irresponsible to point to his lower ERA as PROOF that he's used steroids or hgh.

[IROC it]

http://users4.ev1.net/~yarrum/grimsley.gif

[Joe Joe]

Still haven't seen anyone make a lucid argument on how steroids OR hgh brings your ERA down. Nor how they would affect control, which the main reason cited for Clemens great pitching the last few years. Until that happens it seems incredibly irresponsible to point to his lower ERA as PROOF that he's used steroids or hgh.

Don't know if its HGH or steroids, but I've heard there is a bounce back drug (I'm thinking amphetamines) that allows a pitcher's arm to recover quicker after a start or relief outing. This wouldn't help lower ERA early in a season, but preventing a dead arm would keep it low.

[SamFisher]

Still haven't seen anyone make a lucid argument on how steroids OR hgh brings your ERA down. Nor how they would affect control, which the main reason cited for Clemens great pitching the last few years. Until that happens it seems incredibly irresponsible to point to his lower ERA as PROOF that he's used steroids or hgh.

I don't know why anybody would argue that; the major benefit about steroids and GH is that they allow your body to recover from injuries & every day wear & tear faster, which, given the incredible longevity of Clemns, is something he seems to have done well.

Actually I don't know if anybody mentioned it, but check the very careful wording of his "denial", in which he claims that he never tested positive -- perhaps he just misspoke, but obviously if wrongly accused why not just deny it outright?

It should also be noted tath Canseco claimed that he and Clemens talked about roids more than once.

I rmemeber when Canseco's book came out and he was ridiculed for it and everybody said he was big fat liar -- well, since then a lot of his allegations have been corroborated. McGwire took the fifth, Giambi fessed up, Palmiero tested positive. Canseco might be an ass but he's been vindicated so far.

[Buck Turgidson]

San Francisco U.S. Attorney Kevin Ryan issued a statement Monday, saying: "In view of the recent news reports purporting to identify certain athletes whose names had been redacted from the government's search warrant filings in the Grimsley matter, and in the interests of justice, please be advised that these reports contain significant inaccuracies."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061002/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_drugs_grimsley_other_names

[HayesStreet]

I don't know why anybody would argue that; the major benefit about steroids and GH is that they allow your body to recover from injuries & every day wear & tear faster, which, given the incredible longevity of Clemns, is something he seems to have done well.

If longevity is considered proof of steroid or HGH use then I personally don't have any time for that kind of pseudo science. Nolan Ryan also pitched into his mid to late 40s and I don't think anyone is going to contend he used hgh and steroids.

Actually I don't know if anybody mentioned it, but check the very careful wording of his "denial", in which he claims that he never tested positive -- perhaps he just misspoke, but obviously if wrongly accused why not just deny it outright?

He did when he said his mama always told him not to get in a pissing contest with a skunk.

It should also be noted tath Canseco claimed that he and Clemens talked about roids more than once. I rmemeber when Canseco's book came out and he was ridiculed for it and everybody said he was big fat liar -- well, since then a lot of his allegations have been corroborated. McGwire took the fifth, Giambi fessed up, Palmiero tested positive. Canseco might be an ass but he's been vindicated so far.

Some of his accusations have been vindicated. That doesn't translate into a carte blanche 'everything he said is true.'

[SamFisher]

If longevity is considered proof of steroid or HGH use then I personally don't have any time for that kind of pseudo science. Nolan Ryan also pitched into his mid to late 40s and I don't think anyone is going to contend he used hgh and steroids.


Nobody said it was "proof", but the circumstancs are there in a way that they are not for Ryan.


He did when he said his mama always told him not to get in a pissing contest with a skunk.

LOL, that's a fancy way of saying "no comment". Honestly his denial is just as ****ty and contorted as the kind we've heard before, the kind we've learned not to trust.


Some of his accusations have been vindicated. That doesn't translate into a carte blanche 'everything he said is true.'

I'm trying to think if any one of his allegations has definitely been proven wrong yet......I can't think of one. I'm just saying that the bulk of what he (and others, like Caminiti, et al.) have said about the gravity of the nature of the drug problem in baseball -- most of which was initially dismissed as fantasy -- has since been corroborated in some way.

Honestly, would you really be surprised? I mean baseball basically allowed its players to cheat without testing them for years and now still allows you to cheat with the use of GH since it's undetectable. I'd find it odder if highly competitive players didn't use performance enhancing drugs.

[HayesStreet]

Nobody said it was "proof", but the circumstancs are there in a way that they are not for Ryan.

Ryan was pitching at the same time Canseco was putting up big numbers.

LOL, that's a fancy way of saying "no comment". Honestly his denial is just as ****ty and contorted as the kind we've heard before, the kind we've learned not to trust.

Would mimicking Palmero be any more convincing - he was pretty definitive, no? That's kind of the catch 22 these guys are in now. If they flat out deny it people say 'oh yeah well Palmero denied it.' If they point to tests people say 'that's not the same as denying it.'

I'm trying to think if any one of his allegations has definitely been proven wrong yet......I can't think of one. I'm just saying that the bulk of what he (and others, like Caminiti, et al.) have said about the gravity of the nature of the drug problem in baseball -- most of which was initially dismissed as fantasy -- has since been corroborated in some way.

I understand your point and you're right that the gravity of the problem can't be dismissed. However trying to prove some of Canseco's allegations wrong are like trying to prove a negative. Can anyone 'prove' Clemens and Canseco didn't 'talk' about steroids? Not unless they have audio and video of a 15 year chunk of Clemens life.

Honestly, would you really be surprised? I mean baseball basically allowed its players to cheat without testing them for years and now still allows you to cheat with the use of GH since it's undetectable. I'd find it odder if highly competitive players didn't use performance enhancing drugs.

Yes. I would be completely suprised if he was found to be guilty of juicing. I don't think his game changed at all (usually an indicator) nor has he seen an increase in power (another indicator). I think about the conversations he had with Schilling early in his career where he took him to task for not taking care of himself, preparing and acting as a professional etc. I really would be suprised.

[The Cat]

And Grimsley's attorney told The Arizona Republic that Grimsley told agents that Clemens and his Houston Astros teammate Andy Pettitte would "never in a million years" use illegal performance-enhancing drugs.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2610878

Imagine that... who would've ever thought this was nothing but a witchhunt by wild conspiracy theorists that has no basis in reality whatsoever? :rolleyes: I know I personally am shocked!

[MadMax]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2610878

Imagine that... who would've ever thought this was nothing but a witchhunt by wild conspiracy theorists that has no basis in reality whatsoever? :rolleyes: I know I personally am shocked!

VINDICATION.

[JunkyardDwg]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2610878

Imagine that... who would've ever thought this was nothing but a witchhunt by wild conspiracy theorists that has no basis in reality whatsoever? :rolleyes: I know I personally am shocked!

Suprise, suprise. I can't say definitely whether or not Clemens or Pettite ever did anything, but I don't believe they did. And in this instance, they have been proven innocent. Again, I will not believe it until I see hard evidence.

[HayesStreet]

That's great reporting by the LA Times.

Source: Grimsley said 'never in a million years would Clemens or Pettite use performance enhancing drugs.'
LATimes: So Clemens and Pettite were definitely using performance enhancing drugs. Wow. This is gonna be a great story.
Source: Wait, he said the would never use PE drugs.
LATimes: Right, right. Got it. Thanks for the tip. This is HUGE. (click)

[imoffg33]

grimsley needs to be killed!!!
dont forget that david wells brought craig biggio into the steriod discussion

[MadMax]

grimsley needs to be killed!!!
dont forget that david wells brought craig biggio into the steriod discussion

actually the bad guy here is the guy who decided to run with the story at the LA Times. grimsley never implicated clemens or pettitte.

[Groogrux]

actually the bad guy here is the guy who decided to run with the story at the LA Times.

And that guy probably shouldn't be killed either.

[Raven Lunatic]

Good to know the journalism code of ethics is alive and well at The LA Times. Freaking hack.

[MadMax]

And that guy probably shouldn't be killed either.

yeah...probably not. :D

[Major]

Good to know the journalism code of ethics is alive and well at The LA Times. Freaking hack.

The Times is standing by its story... very strange situation! It seems like a clear-cut thing - it either was in the affidavit or it wasn't.

[Buck Turgidson]

The Times is standing by its story... very strange situation! It seems like a clear-cut thing - it either was in the affidavit or it wasn't.
There's a good chance that their names *are* in fact in the affidavit. The main point of contention is how they got there: implicated by Grimey, or brought up by the agents.

Although it is odd that the Times stands by this when the US Attorney involved says that there are "significant inaccuracies" in the piece.

[pgabriel]

grimsley hasn't said anything, other what he said to the feds or what his attorney says he said. they are probably still in negotians and at this point he doesn't want anyone to know who he has snitched on. so I don't undertand why everyone says this story is put to rest.

the attorney says the report contains inaccuracies, he didn't specifically say roger clemens was or was not in the report.

[MadMax]

grimsley hasn't said anything, other what he said to the feds or what his attorney says he said. they are probably still in negotians and at this point he doesn't want anyone to know who he has snitched on. so I don't undertand why everyone says this story is put to rest.

the attorney says the report contains inaccuracies, he didn't specifically say roger clemens was or was not in the report.

grimsely's attorney says that neither roger nor andy are in the report.

[pgabriel]

grimsely's attorney says that neither roger nor andy are in the report.


so what? and the times stand by their story.

[pgabriel]

the attorney didn't say they aren't in the report, he said the feds brought them up. other than that, they specifically mention steroids, wasn't grimsely caught with hgh?

[MadMax]

the attorney didn't say they aren't in the report, he said the feds brought them up. other than that, they specifically mention steroids, wasn't grimsely caught with hgh?

the attorney said that grimsley told him they wouldn't take performance enhancing drugs "in a million years."

[pgabriel]

the attorney said that grimsley told him they wouldn't take performance enhancing drugs "in a million years."


grimsley is a criminal and a snitch. he'll say anything at this point, which he hasn't in my mind, only his attorney and friends.

[MadMax]

so what? and the times stand by their story.

so what???

so let's dance!!!! -- rodney dangerfield in caddyhack.


actually the so what is this...grimsley knows who he named. he can't change it because it's recorded in an affidavit. he's saying now that those guys weren't on that affidavit. the only group saying otherwise is a newspaper who claims they've seen it.

[MadMax]

grimsley is a criminal and a snitch. he'll say anything at this point, which he hasn't in my mind, only his attorney and friends.

what does he stand to gain???

he's already snitched...he's already thrown out the names.

[pgabriel]

what does he stand to gain???

he's already snitched...he's already thrown out the names.


he was probably under the impression that the names would not get out until he either went to trial or made a deal.

[MadMax]

he was probably under the impression that the names would not get out until he either went to trial or made a deal.

ok..but they're already recorded now...under oath. so why say now that those weren't the names if he's already sworn they were???

i'm not saying your'e wrong...i'm saying i don't get it.

[pgabriel]

ok..but they're already recorded now...under oath. so why say now that those weren't the names if he's already sworn they were???

i'm not saying your'e wrong...i'm saying i don't get it.


i just think this is damage control from everyone involved. we see what's happening in the balco case where the journalists are being forced to give up their sources.

I'm not saying roger is involved either way, I just don't think these recent events clear anyone.

[HayesStreet]

he was probably under the impression that the names would not get out until he either went to trial or made a deal.

what difference does that make? grimsley's attorney doesn't gain credibility by making the statement that his client said Clemens and Pettite would never do drugs in a million years if it is false, he loses credibility. the statement is on record and he has no motive to lie about it. since it is recorded it will come out officially at some point and then he'd be exposed as a liar. no reason for him to do that.

[pgabriel]

what difference does that make? grimsley's attorney doesn't gain credibility by making the statement that his client said Clemens and Pettite would never do drugs in a million years if it is false, he loses credibility. the statement is on record and he has no motive to lie about it. since it is recorded it will come out officially at some point and then he'd be exposed as a liar. no reason for him to do that.


is hgh a drug?

[MadMax]

i just think this is damage control from everyone involved. we see what's happening in the balco case where the journalists are being forced to give up their sources.

I'm not saying roger is involved either way, I just don't think these recent events clear anyone.

i don't think they mean he never did anything wrong.


but i think they're pretty indicative that his name isn't in the report.

[Buck Turgidson]

Here's the affidavit: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1002061grimsley1.html

Where do Clemens & Pettitte fit in here? The LA Times story reads:

According to the affidavit, Grimsley told investigators that Clemens and Pettitte "used athletic performance-enhancing drugs."

Notice the quote directly from the affidavit. The phrase quoted is used on Page 12 of the affidavit.

page 12: "When asked what other current or former Major League Baseball players used athletic performance-enhancing drugs Grimsley named former players [redacted] and [redacted]."

Clemens and Pettitte are not former players.

[HayesStreet]

is hgh a drug?

Not sure what the official classification is.

[Dr.Strangelove]

Clemens switch from the AL to the NL helped him.But Roger has become a better pitcher.His mastery of the splitter has played a major role in his resurgence.But there is another factor....Brad Ausmus.Watch the way he mixes his pitches and location.All these factors have contributed to him maximizing his talent.I would assume Roger has juiced at various points in his career,but probably not moreso than your average Major Leaguer.In the final analysis,he is showing why he might very well be the best pitcher in MLB history.

[Dr.Strangelove]

The ability to adapt is soooo underrated.Not many guys can or will do it,much less a player of Roger's stature,talent,and experience.It's tough to teach an old dog new tricks sometimes,but when they have the will to do what it takes,the results can be amazing.

[msn]

Not sure what the official classification is.
hormone?

[Fegwu]

Here's the affidavit: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1002061grimsley1.html

Where do Clemens & Pettitte fit in here? The LA Times story reads:

According to the affidavit, Grimsley told investigators that Clemens and Pettitte "used athletic performance-enhancing drugs."

Notice the quote directly from the affidavit. The phrase quoted is used on Page 12 of the affidavit.

page 12: "When asked what other current or former Major League Baseball players used athletic performance-enhancing drugs Grimsley named former players [redacted] and [redacted]."

Clemens and Pettitte are not former players.

Don't get it.

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Hayes, when it comes to lawyers, credibility is usually thrown out the window. Their mentallity is that if they are found wanting months after, they will deal with it then. It is the lie-now-deal-with-the-consequence(s) [if any] later mentality. In many cases, we let these lawyers get away with these things because many people will not care anymore about what he said 5 or 7 months after the fact.