Lidge Question?

[Joshaaronb]

Is Lidge's trade value more valuable then demoting him permanately to a relief spot. Without the stress of the closer situations he seems to be himself and if he can prove his dominance over the rest of the season promote him back in the fall or at least that would increase his trade value. Plus we don't have to go find another relief guy to fill a hole once we promote one of our guys to Closer.

[Raven Lunatic]

Plus we don't have to go find another relief guy to fill a hole once we promote one of our guys to Closer.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c132/RunninRaven/poster.jpg

You know what you have to do, Drayton.

Do it.

[Brando2101]

Stress has nothing to do with Lidge's problems.

He came in to replace Dotel in 04 and destoryed everyone. His series against the cards in the NLCS was the most dominant he has ever been.

And now the stress is getting to him?
It's mechanics. Baseball is odd. Great players can have off years.

[Brando2101]

Stress has nothing to do with Lidge's problems.

He came in to replace Dotel in 04 and destoryed everyone. His series against the cards in the NLCS was the most dominant he has ever been.

And now the stress is getting to him?
It's mechanics. Baseball is odd. Great players can have off years.

[kaleidosky]

Stress has nothing to do with Lidge's problems.

He came in to replace Dotel in 04 and destoryed everyone. His series against the cards in the NLCS was the most dominant he has ever been.

And now the stress is getting to him?
It's mechanics. Baseball is odd. Great players can have off years.

Give thoughts. Don't be definitive though.

It's mechanics and nothing else? Have you spotted the mechanical problem? You don't know how his mind works.. you have no idea if you're purely basing it on the fact that "he did well before, therefore it's not mental"

[Ryan Bowen MVP]

I don't know the reason either but there have been a lot of relievers struggling lately, including Bobby Jenks

[jopatmc]

Stress has nothing to do with Lidge's problems.

He came in to replace Dotel in 04 and destoryed everyone. His series against the cards in the NLCS was the most dominant he has ever been.

And now the stress is getting to him?
It's mechanics. Baseball is odd. Great players can have off years.

Hate to say it, but I think it's steroids, ..........or the lack thereof.

[No Worries]

Lidge would be overpaid for middle relief. If his performance did not approve, he would then become disposable.

[MadMax]

Hate to say it, but I think it's steroids, ..........or the lack thereof.

why do you think that?

[Cannonball]

Hate to say it, but I think it's steroids, ..........or the lack thereof.

Why would it be steroids? His velocity is still there. Would steroids bring his walks down? Would steroids put more bite on his slider?

[rrj_gamz]

He needs to be gone,but who the hell is going to take his place and be as dominant as he once was...Just think of our record if he converted half of his blown save opps...

[MadMax]

He needs to be gone,but who the hell is going to take his place and be as dominant as he once was...Just think of our record if he converted half of his blown save opps...

we'd be like 2 games better. he's converted 22/26.

[weslinder]

Give thoughts. Don't be definitive though.

It's mechanics and nothing else? Have you spotted the mechanical problem? You don't know how his mind works.. you have no idea if you're purely basing it on the fact that "he did well before, therefore it's not mental"

Early in the year (and late last year), his stuff looked good, but batters were laying off of his slider and sitting dead red on his fastball. His slider has always ended up in the dirt, he counted on fooling batters and them swinging at it. When he found out he was tipping his pitches, he changed up his delivery. Since then, he's been wild.

[jopatmc]

why do you think that?

Because he's lost it so suddenly, like that Boone boy in Seattle. Overnight, he can't do anything and it's been that way since the latter portion of last season. They were off the juice at the beginning of the season last year. It took a few months to lose the "edge" that that stuff gives all users. And there's been plenty of rumors swirling about Lidge. Hate to see it, but I don't think he's coming back. He may go to the AL and light it up for a few months until everybody gets a look at him and starts sitting on his pitches, but I think he's history. Mazzone may be able to extend his career as a middle of the road middle reliever but if he was on the juice and is now off, and these are the results, I don't think he will ever approach his zenith again. Just my opinion.

By the way, I happen to think that Bonds will not break Aaron's record either. I think he has fallen too far too fast and he is too old to get there, not to mention he might be sitting in jail. It wouldn't surprise me if he retires at the end of the season and then writes a book with a huge publicity tour on how he was forced out of baseball and blaming others because they did not want him to break the record.

[MadMax]

Because he's lost it so suddenly, like that Boone boy in Seattle. Overnight, he can't do anything and it's been that way since the latter portion of last season. They were off the juice at the beginning of the season last year. It took a few months to lose the "edge" that that stuff gives all users. And there's been plenty of rumors swirling about Lidge. Hate to see it, but I don't think he's coming back. He may go to the AL and light it up for a few months until everybody gets a look at him and starts sitting on his pitches, but I think he's history. Mazzone may be able to extend his career as a middle of the road middle reliever but if he was on the juice and is now off, and these are the results, I don't think he will ever approach his zenith again. Just my opinion.

By the way, I happen to think that Bonds will not break Aaron's record either. I think he has fallen too far too fast and he is too old to get there, not to mention he might be sitting in jail. It wouldn't surprise me if he retires at the end of the season and then writes a book with a huge publicity tour on how he was forced out of baseball and blaming others because they did not want him to break the record.

but it's not because he's lost velocity. he's lost location. he's walking guys. he's still striking guys out at a high rate. that's why the steroids thing doesn't make sense to me.

[Buck Turgidson]

And there's been plenty of rumors swirling about Lidge.
Where?

[JunkyardDwg]

Because he's lost it so suddenly

If by suddenly you mean as soon as Pujols hit the hr, then you would be incorrect. If by suddenly you mean he was flat out dominating and then in a span of a game or two he lost it and clearly hasn't gotten it back, then that's not quite right either. Lidge started to struggle at the tail end of last season on into the playoffs and continued into this year. It wasn't a sudden thing...and looking back on it, it shouldn't be that surprising considering how overworked he was in the time leading up to his fall. Combine that with the fact that he hasn't lost his stuff he just doesn't have good location, his mechanics might be off, he might've been tipping his pitches and his confidence almost surely is shaken and it can be seen that steroids are far from being the culprit. To just aumotacially assume that he's struggling so it must be the 'roids is...well it just doesn't make sense.

[Major]

Because he's lost it so suddenly, like that Boone boy in Seattle. Overnight, he can't do anything and it's been that way since the latter portion of last season.

But this isn't true. From early May to early July (between his two periods of implosion), he went 10-for-10 in saves, giving up a total of 0 runs, 2 hits and 0 walks in about 10 innings - that's as dominant as he's ever been. During that same stretch, though, he was terrible in non-save situations, giving up runs in 6 of 10 outings.

The fact that he was closing games well indicates that it's not the pressure that was getting to him. It also doesn't seem to have been anything physical or mechanical or it would have affected all his games. So what is it? Who knows. But it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[No Worries]

Where?
MLB GMs are beating a path to the Astros' doorstep to get closer Brad Lidge and his 5.74 ERA, before we demote him to midlle relief behind Springer. The race is on.

5.74 ERA? Those are Tim Reddingian numbers!!!

[Buck Turgidson]

MLB GMs are beating a path to the Astros' doorstep to get closer Brad Lidge and his 5.74 ERA, before we demote him to midlle relief behind Springer. The race is on.
Was talking about his supposed steroid rumors.

I don't understand the rush around here to trade Lidge when his value (barring injury) could not possibly be lower. He does have an (at least one) option year left, maybe AAA is the place for him for awhile.

[jopatmc]

but it's not because he's lost velocity. he's lost location. he's walking guys. he's still striking guys out at a high rate. that's why the steroids thing doesn't make sense to me.

He's lost movement on his pitches, along with location. The batters can now distinguish better between his fb and his slider because the slider moves earlier and doesn't break as sharply. Thus the good hitters aren't thinking about the slider as much because they can identify it much earlier in it's trajectory and either lay off or hold back and loop down the swing. Or they can just sit on the fb and jack it. Velocity don't mean a thing without the deceptive movement. Those guys hit off the hitting machines all winter. Good major league hitters can gear up and hit 100 mph these days.

Lidge is a 2 pitch pitcher that never knew/learned how to vary speeds anyways, especially on the fb, unlike Rivera who has built a hall of fame career by mastering changing speeds on his pitches as his artful deception. Lidge's whole game is based on that late movement of the slider. It sets up his fb. And his slider only breaks like that when he throws it full force like the fb.

I personally believe that he took roids and when he quit taking them, he lost just enough movement and speed that now he is just a very pedestrian relief pitcher. I believe the roids gave him an edge in movement and an extra mph or two on the radar gun as well as a recoverability edge from night to night to keep him throwing gas up there night after night.

What I mean by sudden decline is he went from one of the top 3 stoppers in baseball last year to tailing off at the end of last season and further decline this year. He didn't just lose a little bit or have a gradual decline the way that superstar players have over the years. He's lost his whole game in less than one season. Yeah, I agree with the poster that says he was losing it before the playoffs last season. A player his age just doesn't lose it that fast unless he suffers an injury or there is some other factor.

A couple months ago the story was he was tipping his pitches out of the windup. So, ...is he still tipping pitches that way? I think not. I think they are being tipped when they come out of his hand because the slider isn't breaking as sharply or as late and the fb is a couple mph slower and straighter. And he is trying to overcompensate by locating the fb and that is causing him to get behind and have to come with a pitch in the zone that doesn't move.

As for the rumors about the roids, I don't care to chase them down, but if you did your homework during the last few months on that issue, Lidge's name came up more than once. Yeah, there is no proof, I know that. But what is the answer?

I only see 3 possibilities:

1. He is injured.
2. He is mentally shot after Pujols blew him up last year.
3. His performance was enhanced before by roids and now he can't use them to enhance his performance.


I don't think he is injured. And he has come back to pitch this year in spots and at times dominating, so I find #2 not very likely. I think the likely scenario is he can't handle the day to day grind of being the closer and his arm gets run down after a couple days of throwing in a game. Because of his age, it leads me to suspect that his performance last year and the year before were enhanced by supplements that allowed his arm to recover in a shorter time span and let him throw at his peak on a nightly basis.

Just my opinion.

[Major]

I only see 3 possibilities:

1. He is injured.
2. He is mentally shot after Pujols blew him up last year.
3. His performance was enhanced before by roids and now he can't use them to enhance his performance.


I don't think he is injured. And he has come back to pitch this year in spots and at times dominating, so I find #2 not very likely. I think the likely scenario is he can't handle the day to day grind of being the closer and his arm gets run down after a couple days of throwing in a game. Because of his age, it leads me to suspect that his performance last year and the year before were enhanced by supplements that allowed his arm to recover in a shorter time span and let him throw at his peak on a nightly basis.

Just my opinion.

But if it's steroids, how does that fit with his vastly different performance in save vs. non-save opportunities?

One of Lidge's problems seems to be pitching with people on. With no one on, he has a fantastic WHIP of 1.17 and batting-average-against of 0.217. With men on, those rise to 1.83 and 0.272. So his problem seems to basically snowball. If he doesn't let anyone on, he's great. Once someone does get on, it all falls apart.

Why that is, I have no idea (also, this doesn't fit with the save/non-save thing necessarily).

[Burzmali]

But if it's steroids, how does that fit with his vastly different performance in save vs. non-save opportunities?

One of Lidge's problems seems to be pitching with people on. With no one on, he has a fantastic WHIP of 1.17 and batting-average-against of 0.217. With men on, those rise to 1.83 and 0.272. So his problem seems to basically snowball. If he doesn't let anyone on, he's great. Once someone does get on, it all falls apart.

Why that is, I have no idea (also, this doesn't fit with the save/non-save thing necessarily).

This is going to sound retarded... but...


Maybe it is psychological. He could start to press when he has a runner on. If it's a makeup issue, then why did it crop up towards the end of last season?

[jopatmc]

But if it's steroids, how does that fit with his vastly different performance in save vs. non-save opportunities?

One of Lidge's problems seems to be pitching with people on. With no one on, he has a fantastic WHIP of 1.17 and batting-average-against of 0.217. With men on, those rise to 1.83 and 0.272. So his problem seems to basically snowball. If he doesn't let anyone on, he's great. Once someone does get on, it all falls apart.

Why that is, I have no idea (also, this doesn't fit with the save/non-save thing necessarily).


"If he doesn't let anyone on, he's great."

That's a profound statement. And true.

You could make the same argument about "Gas Can" Micelli the year before last.

The problem is he is letting people on.

Look, the best batters only get hits 3 times out of 10. So, the odds are in his favor. Even with mediocre stuff, there should be some innings where he manages to get the hitter to miss the pitch by that 1/100000 of an inch and pop the ball up or ground out. But his ERA is over 5 and he is blowing up when it counts. He ain't got it.

You are right. He is having trouble pitching with people on. And pray tell, what is a reliever supposed to be good at?

He can't bear down night in and night out. Anybody MLB pitcher can come into the game and start the 6th or 7th inning and get 3 outs without giving up runs. (BTW, Lidge has done had his opportunities there and managed to fill up the bases and let them in anyways.) But a reliever has got to be able to come in under pressure and get the K or get the DP ground ball and prevent the run from scoring from 2nd with less than 2 outs. That is the definition of a short term relief pitcher. They come in and throw 5-8 top notch pitches and get the outs.

He has lost it. Is there any other reason that makes any sense?

[Major]

He has lost it. Is there any other reason that makes any sense?

I don't disagree that he's struggling. I just was questioning that it was steroids. If that were it, he'd have problems across the board, but his success is very different in different situations (save vs. non-save, men on vs. clear bases).

[jopatmc]

I don't disagree that he's struggling. I just was questioning that it was steroids. If that were it, he'd have problems across the board, but his success is very different in different situations (save vs. non-save, men on vs. clear bases).

Overall he's got an ERA of over 5. That's bad for a starting pitcher. It is atrocious for relief pitcher. He does have problems across the board. It's just the odds of them biting him in the rear go down when he starts an inning with no runners on base. But if you run him out there to start 9 different innings and pitch one inning apiece, I'd bet his ERA still hovered over 5, especially if you start working him 3 and 4 days at a time. I think that is where the roids becomes a factor. The roids allows athletes quick recovery times from physical exertion/fatigue/workout. They help the muscle to recover quicker.

See, I think if you put Lidge out there every 4th day to start the 7th inning and pitch one inning, that he would probably have pretty decent numbers, because he does have good stuff. But, if you put him out there 3 or 4 days in a row, then give him a day off, then he's in there again for 2 games in a row, then another day off, maybe 2 days off, then he's in there again for 2 or 3 games in a row, I don't think he would get enough recovery time to give that lights out stuff. Even before he broke down, his numbers reflected the fact that if he was in there for more than one inning or more than about 20 pitches, his effectiveness went in the toilet. So, even at his best, he can't give you more than one inning on too many occasions.

Hey, I'm saying I suspect roids, but actually I suspect some illegal substance. It doesn't necessarily have to be raw roids. It could be one of those "banned" substances that essentially get their "goody" from a steroid element or some other performance enhancer. I suspect that he has had to stop taking something that was helping him, whatever it is. This day and age, there's so much stuff out there, I can't keep up with all of them, creams, pills, powders, etc.

Of course, I'm pretty suspicious when it comes to steroids. Personally, I am convinced that Roger did them, and I'm convinced that along with Caminetti that Bagwell did them. Not too many people want to recognize the use of steroids when it comes to our local heroes, but when you look at Bagwell's body, and how he bulked up, and the size of his dome, along with his on field performance, how can you really not suspect? Same thing with Roger. I know Roger has always been a big pitcher, but he was bringing it at an age when he should have been sitting at the house. I don't think he is on them now of course. I also think that probably played into his decision to come back midseason right along with his age. Roger is a little bit more difficult case to speculate on because he is old. But the puffy face, the pecs, forearms.... suspicious.

[Little_Scott]

Overall he's got an ERA of over 5. That's bad for a starting pitcher. It is atrocious for relief pitcher. He does have problems across the board. It's just the odds of them biting him in the rear go down when he starts an inning with no runners on base. But if you run him out there to start 9 different innings and pitch one inning apiece, I'd bet his ERA still hovered over 5, especially if you start working him 3 and 4 days at a time. I think that is where the roids becomes a factor. The roids allows athletes quick recovery times from physical exertion/fatigue/workout. They help the muscle to recover quicker.

See, I think if you put Lidge out there every 4th day to start the 7th inning and pitch one inning, that he would probably have pretty decent numbers, because he does have good stuff. But, if you put him out there 3 or 4 days in a row, then give him a day off, then he's in there again for 2 games in a row, then another day off, maybe 2 days off, then he's in there again for 2 or 3 games in a row, I don't think he would get enough recovery time to give that lights out stuff. Even before he broke down, his numbers reflected the fact that if he was in there for more than one inning or more than about 20 pitches, his effectiveness went in the toilet. So, even at his best, he can't give you more than one inning on too many occasions.

Hey, I'm saying I suspect roids, but actually I suspect some illegal substance. It doesn't necessarily have to be raw roids. It could be one of those "banned" substances that essentially get their "goody" from a steroid element or some other performance enhancer. I suspect that he has had to stop taking something that was helping him, whatever it is. This day and age, there's so much stuff out there, I can't keep up with all of them, creams, pills, powders, etc.

Of course, I'm pretty suspicious when it comes to steroids. Personally, I am convinced that Roger did them, and I'm convinced that along with Caminetti that Bagwell did them. Not too many people want to recognize the use of steroids when it comes to our local heroes, but when you look at Bagwell's body, and how he bulked up, and the size of his dome, along with his on field performance, how can you really not suspect? Same thing with Roger. I know Roger has always been a big pitcher, but he was bringing it at an age when he should have been sitting at the house. I don't think he is on them now of course. I also think that probably played into his decision to come back midseason right along with his age. Roger is a little bit more difficult case to speculate on because he is old. But the puffy face, the pecs, forearms.... suspicious.

everything you said was ridiculous. you can't even spell Caminiti.

[Major]

See, I think if you put Lidge out there every 4th day to start the 7th inning and pitch one inning, that he would probably have pretty decent numbers, because he does have good stuff. But, if you put him out there 3 or 4 days in a row, then give him a day off, then he's in there again for 2 games in a row, then another day off, maybe 2 days off, then he's in there again for 2 or 3 games in a row, I don't think he would get enough recovery time to give that lights out stuff.

Again, this doesn't fit the results. The majority of his terrible outings have come after one or more days off. And he's had plenty of those perfect-inning back-to-back saves.